[Primer] R/G Lands

[Antonius]

supposably, this land exists in OGW...

GB Manland
~ comes in to play tapped.
T: G or B
GB: becomes a 3/3 until eot with 1B: regen

looks pretty playable to me...

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Sure, in modern Jund.

[Djehuti]

Opinions on Seagate Ruins?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagateruins.jpg

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagateruins.html

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Immediate thoughts is that it's pretty sweet but it's worse then horizon canopy in this deck.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah, cool card but I'm rarely hellbent without manabond so it's not going to be doing much in most games. It's also really inefficient when compared to thicket and canopy.

[Dice_Box]

I am more into World Breaker as a top end answer to Miracles.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/worldbreaker.jpg

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I am more into World Breaker as a top end answer to Miracles.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/worldbreaker.jpgIf only it wasn't so freaking expensive. I love that card and was definitely trying to do some mental gymnastics to make it work in my head. Having to sac a land and then pay 7 is so difficult to pull off without completely exposing yourself though. It's great to exile a CB or a plains but that isn't going to win games against miracles if you are spending 10 mana and sacrificing a land to do it.

[Dice_Box]

Agreed, but I like cute things and this is cute.

Also, the one thing that seems to be a constant against Miracles is we have time.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It thoroughly checks the cute box haha.

[barcode]

For a couple more mana you can play Newlamog and exile two permanents.

[Cfetchcaviar]

For a couple more mana you can play Newlamog and exile two permanents.


But you can dredge this puppy away, squander a turn getting it back to your hand, and cast it again!

[barcode]

Opinions on Seagate Ruins?

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagateruins.jpg

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagateruins.html

Activate this EOT and then you have 3 cards in hand at the start of your main phase. Seems alright to me. Reusable card draw on lands has proven to be completely busted and this is no exception.

This card is insane.

[hyp3r1on]

Sea Gate seems pretty sweet lol.

Only issue is you really need a Manabond/Exploration in play to really abuse it by getting your hand empty every turn. Without a Manabond/Exploration, it's pretty hard to keep your hand consistently empty.

[Dice_Box]

Was about to post exactly that. I think I would rather have Canopy or Thicket. This doesn't look like a fantastic addition to me since its only really helpful if we are both unable to access our graveyard while also being able to empty our hands.

It's also a dead card game two and three when your holding cards like Grip and you are unwilling to cast them. This means you are unable to go hellbent and you remove the cards value.

[barcode]

I'm okay with the hellbent restriction. At some point in the game I will have no cards in hand and it will be great to draw 2 potential sideboard cards. Strangely this does make Manabond much better.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It's not green, it's not efficient, and it requires some sort of corner-case scenario to be better than cards we already play.

I'll be happy to be wrong but at the moment I'm not seeing a good reason to bother with it.

[Sibelius]

It's not green, it's not efficient, and it requires some sort of corner-case scenario to be better than cards we already play.

I'll be happy to be wrong but at the moment I'm not seeing a good reason to bother with it.

This I agree with.

Loam doesn't have to bring back three cards though so we can make this work in a long game if we need to dredge a lot to search for something. Thicket and Canopy are probably still better.

Sib

[gigapatrick]

Another video. Looks like I won't be able to make too many videos during the Christmas break. Watching the kid and all.

Building a Fortress #79 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4K-U3pGFA&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=79)

[Nikolai004]

Another video. Looks like I won't be able to make too many videos during the Christmas break. Watching the kid and all.

Building a Fortress #79 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4K-U3pGFA&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=79)

That has to be one of my least favorite matchups. I don't ever even feel like Karakas is good enough since they'll just draw 7+ cards and get to do it again, or use Sneak attack to get multiple creatures down. Oh and blood moon. Always seems like an up hill battle on our end.

[Lou Key]

Hi there, I have a question: I play 1 copy of Molten Vortex in sideboard but I didn't find it so useful every matchup I boarded it in (Elves, D&T, Delver.decks).
Let me explain: due to the heavy Loam recursion (or a bad pick resolving Gamble), too often it hit my graveyard.
I'm thinking to cut it to free a slot for Boseiju (there are many Miracles around here).
What do you think?

[Dice_Box]

Your bringing it in against the wrong matches. You want it against control or Moon decks, not decks that Maze and Fire already hold back. It's a fine card but it's not a mainstay. Up to you to do what your most comfortable with but I would (and do) run a Boseiju in a Miracles heavy meta.

[gigapatrick]

That has to be one of my least favorite matchups. I don't ever even feel like Karakas is good enough since they'll just draw 7+ cards and get to do it again, or use Sneak attack to get multiple creatures down. Oh and blood moon. Always seems like an up hill battle on our end.

Yes, I think the Sneak and Show matchup is solidly unfavorable. I've beaten in before with a quick combo game one and a Waste-lock game three, but I don't think that's how the matchup is supposed to go. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to go how it went in the video.

[gigapatrick]

Your bringing it in against the wrong matches. You want it against control or Moon decks, not decks that Maze and Fire already hold back. It's a fine card but it's not a mainstay. Up to you to do what your most comfortable with but I would (and do) run a Boseiju in a Miracles heavy meta.

I'm trying out Boseiju for the first time. With it in the 75, how do you sideboard for Miracles?

[Dice_Box]

Boseiju, Grips and a Choke in.

Bog, 2 Manabond, a Gamble, a Chasm and a Dual out. If it's Mentor two Maze for the second Tabernacle and to leave the Chasm in.

I hate Chasm against Miracles since they can make looping it hard but when it saves your ass it saves your ass. Since Mentor has a higher count of 1 and 3 drops and it can be such a big blow out, I take the risk.

[Alexeezay]

Came across this card again while tuning some Commander decks: Gigapede (http://magiccards.info/query?q=gigapede&v=card&s=cname)

Any good in the Sb vs Miracles?

[barcode]

Came across this card again while tuning some Commander decks: Gigapede (http://magiccards.info/query?q=gigapede&v=card&s=cname)

Any good in the Sb vs Miracles?

Try it out and let us know!

[buddhabatman]

Yes, I think the Sneak and Show matchup is solidly unfavorable. I've beaten in before with a quick combo game one and a Waste-lock game three, but I don't think that's how the matchup is supposed to go. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to go how it went in the video.

I faced sneak and show twice at the St. Louis SCG and went 1-1. I went 2-0 against the first sneak and show where I was able to waste/port lock him off of three mana both games (It was great). The second match I wasn't nearly as fortunate. Definitely an unfavorable matchup. Mana denial can definitely work in this matchup, but you need a couple things to go your way.

[gigapatrick]

Building a Fortress #80 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu750phV4PE&index=80&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[Domri Rade]

Came across this card again while tuning some Commander decks: Gigapede (http://magiccards.info/query?q=gigapede&v=card&s=cname)

Any good in the Sb vs Miracles?

Probably not great. Miracles will most likely be bringing in graveyard hate already, and can just terminus him to the bottom of your deck.

[Lou Key]

@gigapatrick:
Hi, I saw you play 2 Boil in your sideboard (I save theese slots for Choke instead). I suppose that you consider Boil more useful than Choke (even if the red instant costs 1 mana more and it's a one-shot effect). Can you explain your choice?
Thank you.

[Bluemeover]

Not giga but i run the boil over choke because boseiju makes it uncounterable. Also it cannot be removed by counsils jugement or wear/tear out of miracles.

[Dominic Pain]

Heading to a local tournament this weekend with this list

Non-lands - 25
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire

Lands - 35
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillow
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard
1 Karakas
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Molten Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Boil
1 Worm Harvest
4 Krosan Grip

Do you guys have any suggestions or tips for me? If i can remember, I'll post my results after the tourney on Sunday

[barcode]

Heading to a local tournament this weekend with this list

Non-lands - 25
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire

Lands - 35
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillow
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard
1 Karakas
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Molten Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Boil
1 Worm Harvest
4 Krosan Grip

Do you guys have any suggestions or tips for me? If i can remember, I'll post my results after the tourney on Sunday

Chalice of the void and Sphere of resistance are better than phyrexian revoker and worm harvest.

[gigapatrick]

@gigapatrick:
Hi, I saw you play 2 Boil in your sideboard (I save theese slots for Choke instead). I suppose that you consider Boil more useful than Choke (even if the red instant costs 1 mana more and it's a one-shot effect). Can you explain your choice?
Thank you.

Hello there. I was trying out Boil because I was trying out Boseiju, which makes Boil uncounterable. However, taking each on their own merits, Choke is the far superior card in my opinion (not to mention I'm not even certain about Boseiju). I think playing two to three Chokes in the board is the right move, and regardless of my decision on Boseiju, I'll be playing Choke in the future. I have a Miracles video to post that showcases why.

[Layalouhamesh]

Hello there. I was trying out Boil because I was trying out Boseiju, which makes Boil uncounterable. However, taking each on their own merits, Choke is the far superior card in my opinion (not to mention I'm not even certain about Boseiju). I think playing two to three Chokes in the board is the right move, and regardless of my decision on Boseiju, I'll be playing Choke in the future. I have a Miracles video to post that showcases why.

I also advocate for Choke over Boil. Boil is a one shot, while Choke is a continuous silverbullet against a lot of decks when combined with ports.
For the "Choke is counterable" part, despite the fact that I don't play Boseiju, I think that it is possible to play around counters (ports again), or use Choke as a bait to ensure the resolution of a more important spell

[hyp3r1on]

Also on the opinion that Boil in the board is pretty uninspiring, narrow and overall not the worth the SB slot. You should be boarding out Crop Rotations postboard against Miracles so not only do you have to naturally draw a Boil - you also have to naturally find your one-of Boseiju to ensure it resolves. Also if you're way behind on board - Boil doesn't even have that much of an effect on the board. Much rather have Chokes. Even though they get answered by Wear//Tear - they still have to find it under constrained mana, which gives you a window to do things.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Choke being generally better against other island strategies is another plus. Against daze, 1 mana is actually a massive difference.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Choke being generally better against other island strategies is another plus. Against daze, 1 mana is actually a massive difference.

i would not bring in cards like choke or or boil against decks that play daze. Since the decks that play it are already pretty weak to our main mana denial prison. 3 mana could be more productive by looping p fire, or loam with thicket backup.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I also advocate for Choke over Boil. Boil is a one shot, while Choke is a continuous silverbullet against a lot of decks when combined with ports.
For the "Choke is counterable" part, despite the fact that I don't play Boseiju, I think that it is possible to play around counters (ports again), or use Choke as a bait to ensure the resolution of a more important spell


have fun playing around FOW with your ports genius. Boil is excellent against miracles. lasting impact upon resolution, and the chance of being protected by boseiju is nice, but not the decider. 4 mana is not hard to get to y'all.

[Dice_Box]

Some Miracles builds play Daze, that's a deck I would bring in the hoser.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Some Miracles builds play Daze, that's a deck I would bring in the hoser.

archaic lists play daze. back when dig was in.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I also advocate for Choke over Boil. Boil is a one shot, while Choke is a continuous silverbullet against a lot of decks when combined with ports.
For the "Choke is counterable" part, despite the fact that I don't play Boseiju, I think that it is possible to play around counters (ports again), or use Choke as a bait to ensure the resolution of a more important spell


You can't abrupt decay boil.

[Layalouhamesh]

@Gigapatrick

I recently watched some of your videos and I saw you tested Sylvan Library in your 75. What is your final impression about it?
I'm currently testing it instead of the last Manabond in the main, but I think I'm going to move it to the SB as a helping tool to find the hate I side in for game 2. It appears to be too slow for game 1 in my opinion.


have fun playing around FOW with your ports genius. Boil is excellent against miracles. lasting impact upon resolution, and the chance of being protected by boseiju is nice, but not the decider. 4 mana is not hard to get to y'all.

Yep, sure FoW is a problem, but with a 3 mana Choke, you can have a 4th to cast a Gamble after for instance (or do it in reverse depending on the spell you want to protect).
Anyway, FoW is 4 cards in a deck, I was more thinking of the more classical counters (Counterspell, Daze, Pierce...).
And an uncounterable Boil requires a Boseiju, which is a single slot in the deck considering that I (personally) would remove the Crops for game 2 against Miracles.


archaic lists play daze. back when dig was in.

Nope, the Monastery Mentor versions still play a few to easily buff the Mentor and keep pressure.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11011&d=262685&f=LE


You can't abrupt decay boil.

Neither Choke without 2 mana. If you play Abrupt Decay and we side in Choke, then it is at least a UGB deck, with a lot of duals and a manabase that is sensible to Wasteland.
Anyway, I'm not sure I would side in Choke against those decks. Aluren maybe?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Neither Choke without 2 mana. If you play Abrupt Decay and we side in Choke, then it is at least a UGB deck, with a lot of duals and a manabase that is sensible to Wasteland.
Anyway, I'm not sure I would side in Choke against those decks. Aluren maybe?

Yep, sure FoW is a problem, but with a 3 mana Choke, you can have a 4th to cast a Gamble after for instance (or do it in reverse depending on the spell you want to protect).
Anyway, FoW is 4 cards in a deck, I was more thinking of the more classical counters (Counterspell, Daze, Pierce...).


Decks which play abrupt decay play DRS and need only one mana and a certain 1/2 elf to cast it. In addition, they probably fetched up their BASIC lands to cast abrupt decay.
I agree that i would not bring in choke or boil in those match ups. their greedy mana base is easy for us to prey on even with a suite of basics.

Fringe arguments of maybe casting a gamble with the 4th mana, or faint a spell to have them counter it is just speculative BS.
Boil is an instant, I will untap with all my mana thank you very much.

Play around pierce by playing more lands and porting better on their turn, or porting during your upkeep to force something. Counter magic is easy to play around.




Nope, the Monastery Mentor versions still play a few to easily buff the Mentor and keep pressure.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11011&d=262685&f=LE

Nice, you've found one of those archaic lists i was talking about. Looks like it did well in a smaller, local shindig.
In the boarded games, (where we bring in our chokes and boils), they board out dazes. in addition, Counter balance become much better in the boarded games because the number of three drops is much higher than the number of four drops. If you were a little keen, in that same tournament, the lands player got 3rd. They lost to the miracle dude. Probably not because they was playing choke over boil, but because that match up is AWFUL.

This is a fringe archaic deck. I wouldn't count on playing around daze in miracles games.

Of course you board out crop rotations in miracles, but you keep gambles. gamble is very good for grabbing boseiju.

[gigapatrick]

On the topic of Choke Vs. Boil:

Building a Fortress #81 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3zAYrPfw7I&index=81&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

A situation arises during the second game in which I think Choke would definitely have been better than Boil.

[Cfetchcaviar]

On the topic of Choke Vs. Boil:

Building a Fortress #81 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3zAYrPfw7I&index=81&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

A situation arises during the second game in which I think Choke would definitely have been better than Boil.

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

[barcode]

Christ. Might as well play tsunami. . . .

Well... Can't get dispelled...and we get that sweet basic Forest value.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Well... Can't get dispelled...and we get that sweet basic Forest value.


The art is f***** sweet too. Flavor points

[barcode]

The art is f***** sweet too. Flavor points

Plus, you can get it in Beta.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/130.jpg

[Cfetchcaviar]

Plus, you can get it in Beta.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/130.jpg

Hnnnnng

[Rivfader]

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

Gigapatrick is doing us a favor by publicly showing his games, and it's easy to criticise in retrospect. A little more respect for his contributions might be in place.

[gigapatrick]

Your mistakes with stage, port, and not utilizing your grips was a greater blunder than you just running out your boil so early. Sure choke would have been nice. They had 5 cards in hand. Maybe they had wear tear and the like. You also main phased your boil. What a damn waste. It's an instant, but the way you played it might as well play tsunami. . . .

Agreed that I make mistakes but:

He used his wear tear on chalice as soon as he found it. If choke had been in play the game would have been long over I think.

Also what good targets did I have for grip? When he cast his first rip, I had no way of getting another loam going. Why use grip then? By the time he found wear tear for chalice, my grips were overloaded with a bunch of must deal with targets. The real problem was that grip could not hit jace. This was the card that won the game for him. If I have choke he never casts jace or at least nothing afterward.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Gigapatrick is doing us a favor by publicly showing his games, and it's easy to criticise in retrospect. A little more respect for his contributions might be in place.
you're confusing disrespect with criticism. He asked for responses in previous posts. Just delivering.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Agreed that I make mistakes but:

He used his wear tear on chalice as soon as he found it. If choke had been in play the game would have been long over I think.

Also what good targets did I have for grip? When he cast his first rip, I had no way of getting another loam going. Why use grip then? By the time he found wear tear for chalice, my grips were overloaded with a bunch of must deal with targets. The real problem was that grip could not hit jace. This was the card that won the game for him. If I have choke he never casts jace.

Pretty sure I saw cb on the board

[gigapatrick]

Pretty sure I saw cb on the board

No reason to waste a grip when he can't cast top through chalice. When he did cast top, I immediately k gripped counterbalance. He had another because he was brainstorming with jace a billion turns. My choice of how to use grip was not the problem. Boil not being choke was.

[Cfetchcaviar]

No reason to waste a grip when he can't cast top through chalice. When he did cast top, I immediately k gripped counterbalance. He had another because he was brainstorming with jace a billion turns. My choice of how to use grip was not the problem. Boil not being choke was.
Since they drew wear tear, it would not have mattered. However, grip on rip, grip cb, and that gamble is a very good line. Better than draw go which is what you did after you ran out the boil. That said, I love the videos and look forward to all the posts.

[Croprot]

With all this miracles talk can I ask if it's worth it to just main board the boseiju to try and steal game one from them?

[gigapatrick]

Since they drew wear tear, it would not have mattered. However, grip on rip, grip cb, and that gamble is a very good line. Better than draw go which is what you did after you ran out the boil. That said, I love the videos and look forward to all the posts.

No. i couldnt cast gamble through my own chalice and when he found wear tear for chalice he had two rips. Not to mention i also had to use two grips for two blood moons. The point is this: if i have choke then he either doesn't get to cast jace or barring that never casts any of the moons he finds with jace. After a long time he found a wear tear. If i have choke he probably can't cast both sides of it and wear by itself to get rid of choke is countered by chalice on one.

[Cfetchcaviar]

No. i couldnt cast gamble through my own chalice and when he found wear tear for chalice he had two rips. Not to mention i also had to use two grips for two blood moons. The point is this: if i have choke then he either doesn't get to cast jace or barring that never casts any of the moons he finds with jace. After a long time he found a wear tear. If i have choke he probably can't cast both sides of it and wear by itself to get rid of choke is countered by chalice on one. post wear tear you could have. And they were playing fetch lands, so they could have casted it. Blood moon would not have been a problem if you didn't blindly run out the boil first chance you got

[Chatto]

With all this miracles talk can I ask if it's worth it to just main board the boseiju to try and steal game one from them?

I was thinking about MB Boseiju too, but didn't know what to cut. In the end I just settled for the SB.

[Dominic Pain]

I am back from the legacy tournament with some semblance of good news. I played the exact list I posted the other day, but I swapped the Worm Harvest for a Primeval Titan in case I ran into any show and tell (I didn't). Ended up 3-1-1 before top 8 with my only loss being to a BUG midrange deck and then drawing into top 8. I went:
2-0 against Stasis: easily got there game one, he never saw a relevant card, game two I forgot that Back to Basics was a card but luckily I sided into two Krosan Grip in case I ran into something unexpected. He ended up with a Stasis and a Back to Basics in play, eot I had 4 mana up, I cycled and managed to draw a grip, then went to my turn, drew something irrelevant and passed. On his turn he forgot to pay for his own stasis which allowed me to grip the BtB and steal the game.
0-2 against BUG midrange: lands a t2 Tarmogoyf on the play with just a land in the GY, I look at the punishing fire in my hand and cry a little. I never managed to come back from it. Don't remember exactly what happened game 2, but his Life from the Loam did way more work than mine, which never showed up.
2-0 against Shardless BUG: I've got the nuts game one on the play, he doesn't have a Force and i Manabond out the combo + mana to activate. I forget to play around Wasteland and guess what he plays for turn? (It's wasteland) but I can combo in response and I end up untapping and playing one of my own to force my combo through(#get rewarded for bad plays). Game 2 we play a little more Magic but eventually im able to Gamble for the other half of the combo and win.
then I drew against UB Tezzeret but we play for fun and i end up going 2-1, losing to a 5/5 chalice for 1 in game one.

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

[Rivfader]

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

[Dominic Pain]

you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam.
Yeah, my problem was I kept chasm, loam and stage, and while i could /technically/ loop chasm it would cost me all my resources every turn so I'd basically get nowhere. As i tried to pull myself out of the hole I dug, I took too much damage from chasm, combined with the few turns I wasn't under it and just got totally screwed

[Layalouhamesh]

The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

Also, you need to crack the chasmshield to be able to attack with the token, so the Burn player will prepare a hand to kill you at this moment. Installing the chasmshield also requires you to find a few recurring punishing fires to end the game safely.

[Dice_Box]

It's able to be done, I have done it myself before but if you want to get that all going and you don't already have a Manabond or Exploration in play your boned. In short, it's a shit matchup.

Oh and let's overlook the Moons they normally have in the side. I just call Burn a loss and move on. I do still side in the Spheres and Chalice though.

[barcode]

In my experience the burn matchup is a coin flip. Bare minimum that needs to come in: Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance -- all of them in your board.

Treat it exactly like Storm that uses Grapeshot instead of Tendrills (ie, damage and not loss of life). The gold standard to beat this matchup is a mana accelerant, Glacial Chasm, Loam and Stage. Without any lock pieces your options are: Kill them on turn 3 or prepare to loop Chasm for the rest of the game.

Congrats on the finish Dominic, I hope the Titan served you well. ;)

[gigapatrick]

post wear tear you could have. And they were playing fetch lands, so they could have casted it. Blood moon would not have been a problem if you didn't blindly run out the boil first chance you got

Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

[Lou Key]

I played in a tournament yesterday and I drew the first 3 rounds in a row (I faced Miracles two times and a "carefully ponderer" with Team America, but I'm sure he didn't slow play).

At the end I was very demoralized (3 draws ended my path like 3 losses).

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks

[Dice_Box]

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks
Play more. It's a complex deck that takes time to get the hang of. I played Grixis Control in Modern last week for the first time ever. I was slow and got stomped. I pulled out Lands for a friendly after and played fast and fine. It's a skill that comes with practice and thus, really only you can help yourself in this endeavour.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.

[gigapatrick]

But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.


I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.
You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta. Your prejudice comes from bad experiences from worse plays.

[gigapatrick]

You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta.

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?
Because you could have made more rishadan ports and the mana denial was strong with that alone. That is why. I've not insulted you. I have not attacked your character. Just pointing out your glaring obvious blunders. Don't take it personally.

I have victories in multiple 1st place finishes, a recent top 64 at gp seatac, regular posts on local shindigs I attend. Christ. . . the amount of material published with this deck is so limited I am elated to watch your videos and have offered more praise with them than criticism. Been playing magic for 1.5 years. So I'm playing a lot of catchup.

[Ancestral]

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

[gigapatrick]

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

Agreed.

To cfetchcaviar:

I didn't say you attacked my character. I said you offered insults. "Glaring obvious blunder," "terrible plays," and other phrases are nothing but derogatory. If you offered criticisms in more polite vocabulary, I'd be much more willing to listen. As it is, I'm willing to yield that I certainly did not play this past Miracles match perfectly (I said as much in the video) and the way I played Boil might not have been optimal. Congrats on your good finishes and good luck in the future.

I'm going to continue posting videos, and just want to take a moment (again) to remind everyone that I'm but an average player with an enthusiasm for the deck.

[Cfetchcaviar]

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.
Fair. Giga, do you ever check your inbox?

[barcode]

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

[Dice_Box]

So to summarize, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

Do it. You know you want to. Also, you should do that thing. It needs to be.

[jarvisyu]

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings

I went 5-1-1 (then lose in t8) in a local legacy event for a Time Walk to first, and Time Vault for second.

R1: crushed pfire jund
R2: lost to burning omnitell
R3: crushed D+T (won g2 with 3 RIPs out and not killing them at all)
R4: Won RG mirror (2-1)
R5: Crushed BUG Delver
R6: Won vs Shardless (2-1)
R7: 1-1-1 vs Dave Long playing RG Lands (unintentional draw). Got maindeck Bogged in g1, and g3 I was likely going to win, but it was going to take a while.

R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

It probably didn't help that I stayed up until 2:30am watching the new star wars (fantastic movie A+++)

[Cfetchcaviar]

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings

I went 5-1-1 (then lose in t8) in a local legacy event for a Time Walk to first, and Time Vault for second.

R1: crushed pfire jund
R2: lost to burning omnitell
R3: crushed D+T (won g2 with 3 RIPs out and not killing them at all)
R4: Won RG mirror (2-1)
R5: Crushed BUG Delver
R6: Won vs Shardless (2-1)
R7: 1-1-1 vs Dave Long playing RG Lands (unintentional draw). Got maindeck Bogged in g1, and g3 I was likely going to win, but it was going to take a while.

R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

It probably didn't help that I stayed up until 2:30am watching the new star wars (fantastic movie A+++)

Nice! Get long and chanderson to hop on the board and chat us up.

If you knew they were on DnT, might have aggressively mulligan for pfire gamble, or rotation. That hand is really good, but is not very controlling, hard in on the loam engine plan. What were the first turns like?

[gigapatrick]

To cfetchcaviar:

Messages checked and a response sent.

[barcode]

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings


R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

On the play that's a borderline hand against D&T since it has no disruption. On the draw it's a mulligan since it's definitely too slow to interact. But since we're keeping:

Fetch forest, play Exploration and Stage.

Then dredge the fuck out of your deck looking for disruption (Wasteland, Maze, Grove+Punishing Fire, Tabernacle).

[jarvisyu]

On the play that's a borderline hand against D&T since it has no disruption. On the draw it's a mulligan since it's definitely too slow to interact. But since we're keeping:

Fetch forest, play Exploration and Stage.

Then dredge the fuck out of your deck looking for disruption (Wasteland, Maze, Grove+Punishing Fire, Tabernacle).

so i played exploration + stage, and got wastelanded, didn't draw another land for a few turns, by which point i was too far behind to win

i was wondering if i was supposed to NOT play stage to guarantee that i could loam on t2 (and not even be that far behind).

[barcode]

so i played exploration + stage, and got wastelanded, didn't draw another land for a few turns, by which point i was too far behind to win

i was wondering if i was supposed to NOT play stage to guarantee that i could loam on t2 (and not even be that far behind).

This exact scenario is why it's dangerous to keep this hand and follow the obvious line. The mana-producing lands you can draw are pretty slim. Not playing the Stage is defensible but it's definitely not an intuitive line.

[jarvisyu]

This exact scenario is why it's dangerous to keep this hand and follow the obvious line. The mana-producing lands you can draw are pretty slim. Not playing the Stage is defensible but it's definitely not an intuitive line.

i even thought about it for a bit. /shrug

[Djehuti]

I'm going to continue posting videos

Your videos have helped me out greatly man. I'm heard pressed to find time to play test so seeing all these different situations in your vids is tremendously helpful. Keep it up :smile:

[snorlaxcom]

i even thought about it for a bit. /shrug

I had a similar scenario come up yesterday vs rug delver and I held onto stage here (was a bit tighter though since green source wasn't off of a fetch). Apart from not gaining anything by playing the second land the same turn as exploration, you lose your out of drawing a mox for a stable colored source (+4 outs to draw) and t2 loam if you opp does waste/port here. If you did draw a green source the next turn and held off playing the stage you are not losing any significant land development since only 3/4 mana sources will be the end result. Holding off on playing the stage and ripping mox allows you to play chasm, tap green green source before sacing to chasm trigger, pitch stage to mox, loam back green source + fetch + stage. Now you're set for a number of scenarios. The important part of having the green source in hand at this point is avoiding port/waste vulnerability.

I've gotten tempo'd out by stumbling on green sources vs Thalia and friends with that sketchy opener. By the time I could amass a workable manabase their board would be too far ahead. I side out chasm vs d&t because they have a million ways to remove a land from play and it becomes an auto muligan in my experience. What was the card you scryed into?

[Alexeezay]

@ Cfetchcaviar: You playing Magic for 1.5 years says it all.

I think I would have done the same Boil play. You can't give them a thousand mana to play Mentor/Jace whatever on their turn. You need (early) denial to pressure them and make them stumble.
If you wait on Boil, you will eventually run into a Counterspell quite often.

With that being said...gigapatrick, great contributor & I will keep running Choke. Choke is way better vs SneakShow & Storm which is important.

[Dice_Box]

Guys, attack each others arguments not each other. I don't want to see a mod sweep though this thread and delete shit.

[jarvisyu]

I had a similar scenario come up yesterday vs rug delver and I held onto stage here (was a bit tighter though since green source wasn't off of a fetch). Apart from not gaining anything by playing the second land the same turn as exploration, you lose your out of drawing a mox for a stable colored source (+4 outs to draw) and t2 loam if you opp does waste/port here. If you did draw a green source the next turn and held off playing the stage you are not losing any significant land development since only 3/4 mana sources will be the end result. Holding off on playing the stage and ripping mox allows you to play chasm, tap green green source before sacing to chasm trigger, pitch stage to mox, loam back green source + fetch + stage. Now you're set for a number of scenarios. The important part of having the green source in hand at this point is avoiding port/waste vulnerability.

I've gotten tempo'd out by stumbling on green sources vs Thalia and friends with that sketchy opener. By the time I could amass a workable manabase their board would be too far ahead. I side out chasm vs d&t because they have a million ways to remove a land from play and it becomes an auto muligan in my experience. What was the card you scryed into?

preboard game. don't remember, except i should have scryed it to the bottom because it iddn't produce mana

[snorlaxcom]

preboard game. don't remember, except i should have scryed it to the bottom because it iddn't produce mana

I'd snap go to five then since that hand has no way to flip the deck past the draw step plus you have a dead loam and chasm. Being on the draw plus having the scry you still get to see the top 7 t1. I'd take my chances going to 5 to find more action and take advantage of g1's win% by not having to combat sb hate.

[Nikolai004]

With the overwhelming numerous Miracles decks out there what's everyone's plan against the deck? It seems like K-grip just isn't enough. Boil and choke are great, I prefer boil since it deals with their lands for good. It just rarely seems like it's enough. Much like the match up against combo it seems more often they lose to their own deck rather than me drawing my own hate or anti-hate cards. I've been considering abrupt decay's but the black splash isn't the easiest thing to have when you need it. Has anyone had any success trying something new or old?

[Chatto]

With the overwhelming numerous Miracles decks out there what's everyone's plan against the deck? It seems like K-grip just isn't enough. Boil and choke are great, I prefer boil since it deals with their lands for good. It just rarely seems like it's enough. Much like the match up against combo it seems more often they lose to their own deck rather than me drawing my own hate or anti-hate cards. I've been considering abrupt decay's but the black splash isn't the easiest thing to have when you need it. Has anyone had any success trying something new or old?

Boseiju, P-Titan, and K-Grip. In fact, I'm considering going up to two P-Titan again. Miracles is really a MU I don't like: I would raise the flag when CB gets the axe (never going to happen, I know)

[kravkenov]

I would raise the flag when CB gets the axe (never going to happen, I know)

But maybe Sensei's Top... Time will tell.

[hyp3r1on]

Just wanted to point out that it's very easy to watch someone else's games and see mistakes or misplays. I know from experience how hard it is to concentrate on a game, whether it be mtg or something else and engage in commentary at the same time. People freaking out in this thread over gigapatricks videos need to seriously chill out.

When it comes to Boil vs Choke, I personally will never play with Boil. I think it's a low value card that has questionable early game utility vs miracles and questionable late game utility. Obviously there are going to be rare spots at the perfect time where it's an absolute blow out but more often than not it's narrow deadweight in your board. For the nonbelievers - playtest a few postboard matches vs a strong miracles player with boil in your opener and then choke in your opener. In my experience testing - choke is by far the more desirable card.

I hate losing to miracles in general and thats the main reason I prefer the rug build of lands, but that's going slightly off topic.

[barcode]

I hate losing to miracles in general and thats the main reason I prefer the rug build of lands, but that's going slightly off topic.

This is why I've moved back over to the RUGb build as well.

[chaosjace]

I greatly appreciate your efforts, gigapatrick, I don't get many chances to play my lands deck and I enjoy watching.

I think we should give boil a little more time and testing.

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.

[snorlaxcom]

I greatly appreciate your efforts, gigapatrick, I don't get many chances to play my lands deck and I enjoy watching.

I think we should give boil a little more time and testing.

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.

Then you probably want Mirri's Guile. This can still be played off t1 Exploration and helps find sb hate for t2 more consistently. You guys don't run Zuran Orb so is a bit more difficult to leverage the draw factor of Library outside of getting the token swords'd.

[djxstream]

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.


Then you probably want Mirri's Guile. This can still be played off t1 Exploration and helps find sb hate for t2 more consistently. You guys don't run Zuran Orb so is a bit more difficult to leverage the draw factor of Library outside of getting the token swords'd.

I change between running 1 Guile/1 Library and 2 Libraries in my board. Both work wonderfully in different scenarios.

I tend to use the libraries for my miracles and d&t matchups. Since I'm likely to get atleast 1 token +20 life, the library is awesome in those long matchups. I use guile in matchups where I need sideboard spells, but I feel my loam engine won't be completely turned off via a rest in peace or such. its gratifying seeing 3 lands in your upkeep and dredging your draw without worry.

[Antonius]

sylvan is way better because you can double or even triple dredge or you can "draw" a useful card then dredge then put the draw back on top to hide it until it's time to recover it with tranquil or whatever else.

[Layalouhamesh]

Then you probably want Mirri's Guile. This can still be played off t1 Exploration and helps find sb hate for t2 more consistently. You guys don't run Zuran Orb so is a bit more difficult to leverage the draw factor of Library outside of getting the token swords'd.

I personally think Mirri's Guile is a bad card in the deck, since it triggers during the upkeep. When a loam is running, the card is no longer useful, while the library can still be used to find the sb cards, to continue drawing, or to dredge multiple times in the draw step.

However, after playing a library for a time, I find it pretty slow on game one, and I'm thinking of moving it to the sb to help touching the cards I side in at games 2-3, and privilegiate explosivity for game 1.

[snorlaxcom]

Because it triggers before the draw step you know wether to dredge vs draw as opposed to library where you have to wait until every other draw step to use the previous turn's information to conclude a dredge vs a draw.

Saying Library is strictly better I disagree with.

Yes Library hits more "draw" steps to flip more of the deck with multiple loams in the yard but vs miracles you are just exposing more resources to RiP while upping your chances at binning a sb card. Paying life to draw cards may work in the early turns, but is a risk if they stick meddling mages or eot entreat.

[Layalouhamesh]

Because it triggers before the draw step you know wether to dredge vs draw as opposed to library where you have to wait until every other draw step to use the previous turn's information to conclude a dredge vs a draw.

Saying Library is strictly better I disagree with.

Yes Library hits more "draw" steps to flip more of the deck with multiple loams in the yard but vs miracles you are just exposing more resources to RiP while upping your chances at binning a sb card. Paying life to draw cards may work in the early turns, but is a risk if they stick meddling mages or eot entreat.

Sure you can play it this way, but if you do it, you need to choose between scrying and dredging, whereas a Library allows you to do both.
For the miracles matchup, Sylvan can also be used just as Mirri's Guile if you're affraid of that kind of situations, just with one more mana (which might not be an incovenient in case of a countertop).

Another point I didn't mention is that Library can be used to "clean" the top of your library by paying 8 life points when no fetch is available. This allows you to see 3 fresh cards on the next turn. Although being dangerous in some situations, it can help finding the Punishing Fire that will save your life against a flipped Delver for instance, or accelerate assembling a fast combo. With a Mirri's Guile, you only see one more card per turn in this situation. I agree this situation is not the most frequent, but it is another reason why I prefer Sylvan over Mirri.

[Rivfader]

One benefit Library has over Mirri's Guile is the carddraw it offers at the cost of life, in conjunction with Marit Lage getting plowed. Carddrawing into combopieces until they run out of swords, and pay for it all with the 20 life you just gained. There's some sweet irony in this :)

[chaosjace]

Pure speculation incoming:
I can imagine Library being better all around vs guile simply because options are a good thing to have in a deck. You can either draw or put the top two back, or top one even. I feel like vs miracles you may end up with a Chalice on 1 anyway, so a library will almost always be successful, in the event you get an early Chalice then drawing into Guile vs Libary. But this is What If: the Gathering :)

[Dice_Box]

One benefit Library has over Mirri's Guile is the carddraw it offers at the cost of life, in conjunction with Marit Lage getting plowed. Carddrawing into combopieces until they run out of swords, and pay for it all with the 20 life you just gained. There's some sweet irony in this :)
If you have 3 Loams active, no cost of life to Mill 9.

[Cfetchcaviar]

If you have 3 Loams active, no cost of life to Mill 9.

Seriously? No pay 4 life per dredge? That sounds too good to be true, judge at my local store said I have to pay 4 per dredge

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Dredge is a replacement effect and since you didn't actually draw any cards you can't put any back. It's also important to know that if you dredge once and then take two draws you still have to put back or pay for both of the normally drawn cards in order to satisfy the "put two of the cards drawn this turn back on your library... (original text, not oracle, I'm sure it's slightly different)" text.

This is one of those interactions that is helpful to play with on MTGO since it works correctly there and it lets you see exactly how the different scenarios happen.

[Lou Key]

Seriously? No pay 4 life per dredge? That sounds too good to be true, judge at my local store said I have to pay 4 per dredge

Remember: if you dredge, you replace the draw (you never draw a card).

So if you have a Sylvan Library in play and 3 Loams in the graveyard you can replace the first draw (the turn-based action draw) dredging one Loam, then on Sylvan Library's triggered ability resolution you can replace the other two draws dredging the other two Loams (if you have at least 6 cards in your library). Then you have to "[...] choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."

But you have drawn 0 cards this turn, so you don't have to pay life at all!

[gigapatrick]

On Sylvan Library:

I've got two or three videos doing busted stuff with it, such as the aforementioned "draw a bunch of cards because Lage has been plowed twice" or "dredge Loam and see a bunch of extra cards anyway" scenarios. It's a pretty sweet card. Kinda want to put it back in my board.

In any case, a couple more videos, courtesy of my wife taking our daughter out to shop.

Building a Fortress #82 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVAZfsi-H6M&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=82)

Building a Fortress #83 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tl1wojFo8&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=83)

Just a warning: I make a significant (albeit MTGO-only style) blunder in game one of #83.

[Ancestral]

On Sylvan Library:

I've got two or three videos doing busted stuff with it, such as the aforementioned "draw a bunch of cards because Lage has been plowed twice" or "dredge Loam and see a bunch of extra cards anyway" scenarios. It's a pretty sweet card. Kinda want to put it back in my board.

In any case, a couple more videos, courtesy of my wife taking our daughter out to shop.

Building a Fortress #82 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVAZfsi-H6M&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=82)

Building a Fortress #83 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tl1wojFo8&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=83)

Just a warning: I make a significant (albeit MTGO-only style) blunder in game one of #83.

well while seeing the video i think i would have made the same mistake on mtgo xD

And about the tabernacle decision on #82, i would mox
gamble for tabernacle for sure, going to 6 its too dangerous, he spend a lot of resources and give him a clock and just a minimum 3 storm kill its too risky, not worth taking in my opinion.

[Dice_Box]

Seriously? No pay 4 life per dredge? That sounds too good to be true, judge at my local store said I have to pay 4 per dredge

No cost to mill once or thrice, if you mill twice it costs you. Basically if you never actually draw a card with Library, it's damage trigger never has a reason to activate. Replaced ability of Dredge is not drawing.

[buddhabatman]

On Sylvan Library:

I've got two or three videos doing busted stuff with it, such as the aforementioned "draw a bunch of cards because Lage has been plowed twice" or "dredge Loam and see a bunch of extra cards anyway" scenarios. It's a pretty sweet card. Kinda want to put it back in my board.

In any case, a couple more videos, courtesy of my wife taking our daughter out to shop.

Building a Fortress #82 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVAZfsi-H6M&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=82)

Building a Fortress #83 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tl1wojFo8&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=83)

Just a warning: I make a significant (albeit MTGO-only style) blunder in game one of #83.

I know I'm the millionth person to say this, but seriously THANK YOU for these videos. It's a great resource to study up on r/g lands match ups and I enjoy watching your games! Sweet storm victory btw, always a good day when lands beats storm.

[Cfetchcaviar]

No cost to mill once or thrice, if you mill twice it costs you. Basically if you never actually draw a card with Library, it's damage trigger never has a reason to activate. Replaced ability of Dredge is not drawing.

Ugh, judges deff made me pay life to dredge multiple times.

[barcode]

Ugh, judges deff made me pay life to dredge multiple times.

That's a mistake then. It says so right in the rulings for Sylvan Library (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/121.html)


9/16/2007: If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

From the Comprehensive Rules (Nov 13, 2015):


702.51a. Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player's graveyard. "Dredge N" means "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."

Because it says "if you would draw a card" that's a special wording to indicate that the following text is going to replace the act of drawing [that] card. Simply put:

At the start of your draw step you have an option to dredge or to not dredge Loam to replace the draw. If you choose to dredge you dredge 3 and the put the Loam into your hand. You never actually drew a card. Likewise with Sylvan Library's triggered ability you have the option to draw an extra two cards and for each of those cards you would draw you may dredge any available Loam; these Loams just "appear" in your hand because they were not drawn (drawn from where??). Because you haven't actually drawn any cards this turn Library's condition "if you do [draw extra cards]" never applies.

[hyp3r1on]

As an added Sylvan Library note just to make it clear. If you announce a dredge for a Sylvan Library draw during your draw step - you can sequence it in any order. For example - you can:

- Look at the top 2 cards and dredge Loam - milling cards 3,4,5
- Look at the top 1 and 5 cards and dredge Loam milling cards 2,3,4
- Dredge Loam milling cards 1,2,3 and then looking at cards 4 and 5.

This can obviously come up if you know cards from previous Library Activations. If you have 2 Loams in your graveyard you can sequence it like:

- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Dredge Loam milling 4,5,6 and then look at the top card.
- Look at the top card, Dredge Loam milling 2,3,4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7
- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7

Keep in mind you can't "look" at a card in these sequences and then decide whether to dredge it over or not. You must announce what you are doing for each of your Sylvan Library draw phases.

As what was discussed, if you have 3 Loams you can dredge all 3 for Sylvan.

If at any time you decide to Dredge+Draw you will always have to pay for your "DRAWS" - not dredges.

So for example in this sequence: - Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7. If I choose to take card 4 and draw it then I will pay 4 life. If I don't draw card 4 then I don't have to pay any life for the two dredges of Loam that took place.

Hopefully that all made sense.

[Rampart]

As an added Sylvan Library note just to make it clear. If you announce a dredge for a Sylvan Library draw during your draw step - you can sequence it in any order. For example - you can:

- Look at the top 2 cards and dredge Loam - milling cards 3,4,5
- Look at the top 1 and 5 cards and dredge Loam milling cards 2,3,4
- Dredge Loam milling cards 1,2,3 and then looking at cards 4 and 5.

This can obviously come up if you know cards from previous Library Activations. If you have 2 Loams in your graveyard you can sequence it like:

- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Dredge Loam milling 4,5,6 and then look at the top card.
- Look at the top card, Dredge Loam milling 2,3,4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7
- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7

Keep in mind you can't "look" at a card in these sequences and then decide whether to dredge it over or not. You must announce what you are doing for each of your Sylvan Library draw phases.

As what was discussed, if you have 3 Loams you can dredge all 3 for Sylvan.

If at any time you decide to Dredge+Draw you will always have to pay for your "DRAWS" - not dredges.

So for example in this sequence: - Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7. If I choose to take card 4 and draw it then I will pay 4 life. If I don't draw card 4 then I don't have to pay any life for the two dredges of Loam that took place.

Hopefully that all made sense.

Sorry but that's not 100 percent correct.

If you activate Library and draw a card you are required to place two cards drawn this turn back on top of your library or pay four life. Basically if you dredge two loams you have to either pay four life and put card "4" back or pay 8 life. There is one exception to this, if you cycle tranquil thicket or activate horizon canopy during your upkeep, this is because its a card you have drawn this turn, its gets a little ugly though because you normally have to call a judge to make that play.

The long and short of it is the following

a. dredge 3 loams and pay no life
b. dredge 2 loams and pay 4 life and put one card back or pay 8 life and keep one card
c. dredge 1 loam and pay 0 life and put two cards back or pay 4 life an keep one card or pay 8 life and keep both cards
d. Draw a card during you upkeep and mess A-C up

[hyp3r1on]

Sorry but that's not 100 percent correct.

If you activate Library and draw a card you are required to place two cards drawn this turn back on top of your library or pay four life. Basically if you dredge two loams you have to either pay four life and put card "4" back or pay 8 life. There is one exception to this, if you cycle tranquil thicket or activate horizon canopy during your upkeep, this is because its a card you have drawn this turn, its gets a little ugly though because you normally have to call a judge to make that play.

The long and short of it is the following

a. dredge 3 loams and pay no life
b. dredge 2 loams and pay 4 life and put one card back or pay 8 life and keep one card
c. dredge 1 loam and pay 0 life and put two cards back or pay 4 life an keep one card or pay 8 life and keep both cards
d. Draw a card during you upkeep and mess A-C up

Yes, sorry you are absolutely correct about the "2 loam" situation in terms of life liss. Thanks for the clarification

[kravkenov]

I dont agree. Sylvan Library will try to do (make you choose) as much as possible, but won't punish you for something you cannot do.
If after Sylvan activation you can legally choose only one card actually drew this turn, then you only have to put this card back on top of your library, or pay 4 life to keep it in your hand, not 8 life.

From the Gatherer rulings: “9/16/2007
If you choose to draw two cards (off of Sylvan Library), then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library’s ability still happens. If you’ve actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven’t actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect. (but still happens)”

So it is like this (with the hypotheses you didn't draw card from cantrip, Horizon Canopy or others ways prior to Sylvan Library activation)

1) Draw 3 cards, dredge 0 card : Put back 2 cards drew this turn or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
2) Draw 2 cards, dredge 1 card : Put back 2 cards drew this turn (not the dredged one) or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
3) Draw 1 card, dredge 2 cards : Put back 1 card drew this turn (not the dredged one) or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
4) Draw 0 card, dredge 3 cards : You CANT put back card drew this turn, so the second part of the library dont have any effect.

so if you choose to not put back anythings :
1) pay 8 life
2) pay 8 life
3) pay 4 life
4) pay 0 life

[Rivfader]

I dont agree. Sylvan Library will try to do (make you choose) as much as possible, but won't punish you for something you cannot do.
If after Sylvan activation you can legally choose only one card actually drew this turn, then you only have to put this card back on top of your library, or pay 4 life to keep it in your hand, not 8 life.


I think this is the correct scenario (or at least how I've been playing it). I would be very surprised if it turned out otherwise.

[Dice_Box]

I think this is the correct scenario (or at least how I've been playing it). I would be very surprised if it turned out otherwise.

The card itself asks you to put back two cards if you drew any with its actervation. If you can't, you pay 4x X where X is equal to the amount you did not put back. If you put back only one and drew any cards at all, you lose 4 Life for failing to put back "Two cards drawn this turn."

To be honest, we are hashing over old conversations here. Just read this:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21281-Sylvan-Library-and-Life-from-the-Loam-interaction

[kravkenov]

Library ask you to put back two cards drew this turn. But if you didn't actually drew two cards, it will performs as much as possible. Exactly the same way Hymn to Tourach ask target player to discard two cards, if that player has only 1 card in hand, the spell won't fizzle, it will just do as much as possible.

I'm pretty sur to be right, sorry.

[Dice_Box]

You might be. I honestly don't see myself playing the card.

In other news, I got hammered by Prime Time in a Lands Mirror this week. I am cutting Chokes since I have not used them in weeks for a pair of Primes. That is until I can get one Vinecrasher for the mirror and I am going to run a split. The mirror, such a coin flip.

[Chatto]

In other news, I got hammered by Prime Time in a Lands Mirror this week. I am cutting Chokes since I have not used them in weeks for a pair of Primes. That is until I can get one Vinecrasher for the mirror and I am going to run a split. The mirror, such a coin flip.

Prime is a Bomb as a SB, right now. Never thought about Vinecrasher, seems legit (can get huge and has trample... Wow)

[gigapatrick]

I know I'm the millionth person to say this, but seriously THANK YOU for these videos. It's a great resource to study up on r/g lands match ups and I enjoy watching your games! Sweet storm victory btw, always a good day when lands beats storm.

My pleasure. You're welcome.

[Rivfader]

To clear things out, here's the ruling on Sylvan Library (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159317), concerning the previous discussion.

"If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect."

[non-inflammable]

Never thought about Vinecrasher, seems legit (can get huge and has trample... Wow)

damn, you're right...
seems very similar to worm harvest in the role it would fill.

i had a player side in grafdigger's cage against me 'cause worm harvest ate him alive.
the vinecrasher gets around the cage.

[Chatto]

damn, you're right...
seems very similar to worm harvest in the role it would fill.

i had a player side in grafdigger's cage against me 'cause worm harvest ate him alive.
the vinecrasher gets around the cage.

Yeah, only one problem: it's also GY-dependant. Prime is still better, imo.

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, only one problem: it's also GY-dependant. Prime is still better, imo.
I was going to run both.

The thing about Graveyard interaction is that they either have a one off effect, a pinpoint effect or a continuous effect. In the case of a one off I think the card is fine, in the case of pin point nothing changes. In the case of continuous I then want a Prime over Vine but even then that effect has to be RIP and not Leyline or Vine still has an effect.

I don't think for about 4 bucks I lose in trying out the card.

[Chatto]

I don't think for about 4 bucks I lose in trying out the card.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good card to try :smile:

[Dice_Box]

Merry Christmas everyone.

[Chatto]

Merry days are here! Enjoy everyone!

[Crimhead]

Merry Xmas! Good holiday for a :r:/:g: deck, I should think.

[Ancestral]

happy x-mas thesourcers!!

a question for you, do you guys still playing 1 off manabond ?

I pick up a stock RG Build to test a few time ago and manabond was always pretty mediocre, most of the times i had lands i don´t wanna drop, another times already have exploration and its better.. i played RUGb lands for a long time back in the day and manabond was fine cause i played 38-39 lands, now the account is lower and never get valeu from that.

I replaced that for 1 sylvan lybrary main, not sure if worth the spot yet but had to test something, and so far its at least better than manabond.

Have other sugestions for main ? maybe molten vortex ?

[Dice_Box]

I love the card. Nothing gets me further ahead then an active Loam and Bond.

[Dominic Pain]

I've strongly thought about replacing manabond for something else too, but the number of times that I've had the nut draw and could t2 swing with lage is enough to keep it in my main for now

[Chatto]

happy x-mas thesourcers!!

a question for you, do you guys still playing 1 off manabond ?

I pick up a stock RG Build to test a few time ago and manabond was always pretty mediocre, most of the times i had lands i don´t wanna drop, another times already have exploration and its better.. i played RUGb lands for a long time back in the day and manabond was fine cause i played 38-39 lands, now the account is lower and never get valeu from that.

I replaced that for 1 sylvan lybrary main, not sure if worth the spot yet but had to test something, and so far its at least better than manabond.

Have other sugestions for main ? maybe molten vortex ?

This comes up from time to time, but the general consensus is to keep Manabond in (for reasons already given). The only other question you should ask yourself is: one or two Manabond. I went down to one, and so far like it like that.

[Ancestral]

I love the card. Nothing gets me further ahead then an active Loam and Bond.

well any exploration effect makes you ahead too, and manabond is a win more in the few cases that gets active in my expiience :/

i know that can be backbreaking but the times that puts me ahead and its dead, its more often than to me, thats why i asked ;) but thank for the input :)


Dominic Pain
I've strongly thought about replacing manabond for something else too, but the number of times that I've had the nut draw and could t2 swing with lage is enough to keep it in my main for now

well i guess that happen to me like once in more than 50 Matches, had an opener 7 with 1 off manabons + 2 lands + thespian + DD its pretty rare, so that situation cross my mind but i think isn´t relevant enough.

You though in any specific replacment?

[Dice_Box]

Bond does a few things I like.

One. Let's me dump if I am Loaming, Thicket and Loaming. I have 5 Lands in hand and that's not as uncommon in as it sounds.

Two. Let's me discard Loam. Something you might not think you want to do until your using all your mana to hold down someone with Ports.

Three. Makes Chasm beyond busted. You get much further ahead when looking Chasm with Bond then Exploration.

Four. Adds two more Exploration effects. Something you want.

Five. Gives you speed in game one while being an easy cut game two and three once you increase your non land count.

Six. Everything else I have missed someone else posts after.

[Dominic Pain]

You though in any specific replacment?
If I were going to replace manabond, I'd probably try a main deck vortex or library. I haven't had a chance to test library yet but it seems really good



Four. Adds two more Exploration effects. Something you want.

Five. Gives you speed in game one while being an easy cut game two and three once you increase your non land count.

This. I only run one manabond but I might try to fit in a second just so I can get a little faster game one. I've also found it eats counters like a champ so if I expect my opponent to have permission I'll run out bond first so I can hope to stick exploration after and play more conservatively.

[Ancestral]

yeah those are good points, but maybe is my experience with old RUGb lands, that speed isnt what i look for g1, i adopted most of the time the control role and manabond never was really insane to me like i said before, i´m trying sylvan for a litle bit more and then lets see what happens :)

[chaosjace]

I have been thinking about running 4 manabond, but there isn't quite enough room. I am a dreamer though. I like unorthodox solutions to problems that don't exist.

[Ancestral]

I have been thinking about running 4 manabond, but there isn't quite enough room. I am a dreamer though. I like unorthodox solutions to problems that don't exist.

well that´s actually a bit odd. like i said, speed is the thing i worry less in G1 since there are almost no hate, however i maybe playing RG build slowly than i should.

[Whitefaces]

I am a dreamer though. I like unorthodox solutions to problems that don't exist.

:really:

Perfect way to have nobody take you seriously, I guess.

[chaosjace]

well that´s actually a bit odd. like i said, speed is the thing i worry less in G1 since there are almost no hate, however i maybe playing RG build slowly than i should.


I was thinking speed could be key game one, and game two go for prison mode, because there is no hate game 1.

[Dice_Box]

Speed is important game one. After game one you slow the deck down by both cutting cards you don't need but also adding interactive cards for hate. Your more likely to Draw in place of Dredge cards in games two and three, keep hands without Loam effects or Exploration effects because your either are trying to draw into or have in hand hate for their effects. Gamble I find normally finds Fire and Rotation Grove in later games. Speed taking a back seat to power.

Game one your combo control. Game two and three your control combo.

[chaosjace]

:really:

Perfect way to have nobody take you seriously, I guess.


That's fine, I am just throwing my ideas out there. As I said I don't have much experience or get many chances to play. I've only really played against reanimator, and everyone else I know plays Sneak and show, elves and TES. I own miracles DnT and dredge that I have yet to test lands against, but I hope to get really good with the deck some day.

[Crimhead]

I think running a third Manabond for a faster G1 is an idea worth exploring. Not so sure about number four; but its the same issue - what aren't we running instead? I like cramming an extra utility land in there if I can (I've actually gone down to one Manabond in this build). Also, cutting any lands reduces the value of Manabond itself.

Has anybody tried running three or four? How did you find it?

[Ancestral]

yeah maybe i should shift gears for my G1 ;)

[Crimhead]

Ancestral - I played RUGx too before trying R/G, and the hardest thing for me to get used to was playing faster. More to the point, I didn't at first understand the need to play faster. We can't rely on as big an edge in a grindy control game; that's the cost we pay for those faster wins (which this version leans on a little more).

[chaosjace]

I think running a third Manabond for a faster G1 is an idea worth exploring. Not so sure about number four; but its the same issue - what aren't we running instead?



I would think cutting a crop rotation or p-fire might be an option, CR is one of the few things we can't get back from the GY, almost everything else can be dropped turn 1 or pitched to manabond without worry. And We wouldn't miss a p fire in game one, we could just gamble for it if it came to that. I believe there was a time we SB a crop rot or p fire or didn't even run a full 4 p fire.

[Dice_Box]

Yep. Unlike RUG, Combo lands is never going to "Come to your rescue" with cards like Engineered Explosives or Zuran Orb. If you fuck up with Combo you own it. Your able to grind out, your able to combo and your able to fight to the bitter end but you have to also keep in mind you have traded your grind power for streamlining. You can do these things, but only to a shadow of what you could do if you where running RUG.

So if your taking out your grind, use what you have to your advantage. If though want to play full control style Lands you can do that, just look to the other two Lands threads. (Jund Depths being the third.)

RUG is a Warthog while Combo an F-111. Both attack the same targets but do it in different ways.

[barcode]

I think running a third Manabond for a faster G1 is an idea worth exploring. Not so sure about number four; but its the same issue - what aren't we running instead? I like cramming an extra utility land in there if I can (I've actually gone down to one Manabond in this build). Also, cutting any lands reduces the value of Manabond itself.

Has anybody tried running three or four? How did you find it?

The reason the deck plays only one or two is because the second Manabond is a dead draw. Try not to put cards in your deck that will be blanks. At least against Storm you can discard Maze of Ith to Mox Diamond.

[Rivfader]

I think running a third Manabond for a faster G1 is an idea worth exploring. Not so sure about number four; but its the same issue - what aren't we running instead? I like cramming an extra utility land in there if I can (I've actually gone down to one Manabond in this build). Also, cutting any lands reduces the value of Manabond itself.

Has anybody tried running three or four? How did you find it?

I actually tried 3 in some fnm's. Considering that the accelerators are the only nonrecurrable cards (apart from tutors), it makes sense to have their numbers as high as possible (as you can reliably gamble for every other card). It made game 1 more nuts. But as most of them were cut game 2 and 3, I felt they did take up too much deckspace and that the sideboard had become too tight.

[Antonius]

In my list I've cut manabond to make room for MD bog, boseiju and ghost quarter.

[Ancestral]

yeah thanks guys for the tips ;) i guess im testing this version a bit more and after some results lets see what i prefer, defently need to play moroe like a combo deck ;)

[hyp3r1on]

A savvy Lands pilot will always be able to know from either the matchup or the boardstate whether the route to victory is by combo-ing out or by controlling the board. You really can't play the deck with a singular mindset or focus. It is true though that sometimes you can't afford to play around literally everything and you might have to take risks.

Also MD Boseiju, seems incredibly greedy unless your local meta is littered with Miracles and control decks. Having a Boseiju in my hand versus a Delver deck or any non-blue deck is not something I'm really excited for.

[chaosjace]

If I wasn't going for fast combo game one, I would prefer more disruption, so maybe I will test a MD ghost quarter. I like both extremes of the deck, (combo mode and prison mode) I would also consider a MD Divining Top, I feel like this has also happened in RG Lands history.

[Crimhead]

A savvy Lands pilot will always be able to know from either the matchup or the boardstate whether the route to victory is by combo-ing out or by controlling the board. You really can't play the deck with a singular mindset or focus. It is true though that sometimes you can't afford to play around literally everything and you might have to take risks.I think in R/G you can afford to play around a little bit less - especially looking at a longer grind - and have to take risks which you would never take playing RUG. Knowing this in advance can even effect our early plays and mulligans.

This is something I personally found hard to wrap my head around coming from a RUG background. My first event on R/G was hands down my worst performance with a Lands build.

[hyp3r1on]

Sensei's Divining Top is horrendous in Lands. You can't afford to sink mana into it.

[Dominic Pain]

Heading to a tournament in Tampa, will post results later today or tomorrow. Couldn't find a Vinecrasher to test but I've got prime time and a library in my board, kind of excited to see how they'll perform

[Dominic Pain]

Well that tournament could have gone better.
2-0 Death and Taxes, had grove and fire in both my openers, turns out that card is really good against them.
0-2 UW Countertop and got completely crushed. Game one was just an abysmal struggle until I scooped to Jace+counter top+ floating 2 drop and all my combo pieces in the yard. game two I keep a sketchy six and he wastes my only colored source and I don't draw another one for the rest of the game.
2-0 Belcher, game one he plays Empty the Warrens for 16 goblins, I rotate into tabernacle and waste his taiga. gg. game two he plays Belcher without the mana to activate, I grip it.
0-2 Death and Taxes, keep a sketchy hand, I'm able to get lage but I can't properly port him off white and lose to his clock. Game 2 I'm able to loop depths to keep up a threat but I can't draw punishing fire to deal with his mom & avenger.

After today I've got a few changes I'm gonna try, swapping out the MD ghost quarter for a Sejiri Steppe, and I'm changing my flex spot in the side for a Tower of the Magistrate

[Dice_Box]

Steppe is all kinds of bad. Your better off running almost anything else. It etb tapped, off colour, does nothing when it does unless you have the witch and it's just a short cut to something we can do already with Ports, Fires and Wastelands.

It's beyond too narrow.

[hyp3r1on]

Yeah, Steppe is pretty bad. I've always enjoyed Tower of the Magistrate for trolling purposes, but I wouldn't dream of playing it in a serious event lol. Also, I enjoy Island of Wak-Wak more than a normal man should. Again for strict trolling purposes.

[Dominic Pain]

Steppe does seem really niche but there were so many points at that tournament where I had rotate in hand and if I could have rotated into Steppe I'd have the game. Tower is probably too cute tho, I was just kind of frustrated over losing to D&T and thought that card might be nice to have access too.

[Dice_Box]

Steppe does seem really niche but there were so many points at that tournament where I had rotate in hand and if I could have rotated into Steppe I'd have the game. Tower is probably too cute tho, I was just kind of frustrated over losing to D&T and thought that card might be nice to have access too.

You will remember the moments a card saved you and forget the ones it was a dead draw over time sometimes. That is how Pet cards are born. If you look at the way the deck is built and how it works though you should just read your post up to the word "But" and then stop. Everything after than is just justification for a very truthful statement you yourself wrote. This card is going to make you cut something more useful from the deck and thus lose you more games than those few it would help you win. I council against its use.

[Crimhead]

You will remember the moments a card saved you and forget the ones it was a dead draw over time sometimes. Also you won't remember the times it "wins" a game you would have won regardless. Often you won't even know with certainty.

[Layalouhamesh]

Steppe does seem really niche but there were so many points at that tournament where I had rotate in hand and if I could have rotated into Steppe I'd have the game. Tower is probably too cute tho, I was just kind of frustrated over losing to D&T and thought that card might be nice to have access too.

I also don't like the Steppe, since it is nearly useful only as a target for Crop Rotation.
Also, you mentioned previously you wanted to try the Primeval Titan. Did it perform well in some games?

[Dominic Pain]

You guys have done a good job of convincing me not to run Steppe. My salt levels last night were off the charts and now that I'm rested up I'm over my bad ideas. I didn't get a chance to bring in Prime, what matchups do you think he should go in for? I considered it against countertop but decided against it

[Dominic Pain]

I did forget to mention the highlight of my night though, game one countertop played two standstills against me. Needless to say I ended up drawing six cards.

[barcode]

You guys have done a good job of convincing me not to run Steppe. My salt levels last night were off the charts and now that I'm rested up I'm over my bad ideas. I didn't get a chance to bring in Prime, what matchups do you think he should go in for? I considered it against countertop but decided against it

Primeval Titan comes in against decks that have graveyard hate or can't deal with a 6/6. Shardless and delver decks can't deal with a 6/6. Miracles has graveyard hate. Death & Taxes has both graveyard hate and a hard time dealing with a 6/6 (4 plows and that's it). Titan is also the mirror breaker: The first person to resolve Primeval Titan will win the game (getting to 6 mana is the tricky part).

[Layalouhamesh]

Primeval Titan comes in against decks that have graveyard hate or can't deal with a 6/6. Shardless and delver decks can't deal with a 6/6. Miracles has graveyard hate. Death & Taxes has both graveyard hate and a hard time dealing with a 6/6 (4 plows and that's it). Titan is also the mirror breaker: The first person to resolve Primeval Titan will win the game (getting to 6 mana is the tricky part).

Completely agree. I would also bring it in against Reanimator to have a creature to keep the pressure if the opponent loses a lot of life (Griselbrand, Reanimate) or to have an additional way to fetch for Karakas/Tabernacle.

[barcode]

Completely agree. I would also bring it in against Reanimator to have a creature to keep the pressure if the opponent loses a lot of life (Griselbrand, Reanimate) or to have an additional way to fetch for Karakas/Tabernacle.

I love it against Reanimator, too! It blanks Show & Tell so long as Titan is in our hand (remember: the only threat that really matters is Tidespout Tyrant).

It can make Exhume awful.

Some pitfalls: If they reanimate it we have a hard time with mana denial plan.


It is for the same reason -- show & tell -- I like Titan against Sneak & Show. That puts the only "real" cards at Blood Moon and Sneak Attack.

[Dominic Pain]

Found an upside to boseiju + boil over choke. I rotated under countertop, he tops, fetches, tops, doesn't find a 1 drop, says "eh I don't think I actually care about it? I've got a needle on stage?" I rotate into boseiju and boil him and he scoops.

[Chatto]

Don't think it can be accounted as an upside, he just didn't find a 1cmc-spell. Boul does suits our manadenial-plan better nowadays. Back when Omnitell was a thing Choke was the better card: combined with 3Ball it was deadly.

[Dice_Box]

I am cutting Chokes for Primes. The amount of times I wanted a Choke over the amount of times I wanted to just win... Choke is not as strong as it was, I am happy to let it go.

[barcode]

I am cutting Chokes for Primes. The amount of times I wanted a Choke over the amount of times I wanted to just win... Choke is not as strong as it was, I am happy to let it go.

Yes... :)

Next thing you'll be cutting Boseiju for Cavern of Souls. :)

[Dice_Box]

Yes... :)

Next thing you'll be cutting Boseiju for Cavern of Souls. :)
Just got a set foil Boseiju in my Secret Santa so...

[jarvisyu]

Looking for (S preferred) Chinese Primeval Titans now... :p

(I might end up playing Modern Scapeshift again, to be honest)

[fluuu]

Looking for (S preferred) Chinese Primeval Titans now... :p

(I might end up playing Modern Scapeshift again, to be honest)

What is ur actual list Jarvis?

[Dice_Box]

Fluu, please use proper spelling and grammar when you can. I know I am not perfect for this since I am often on a phone that Auto corrects on me, but ur is really not the best way to type things on the site.

[fluuu]

Fluu, please use proper spelling and grammar when you can. I know I am not perfect for this since I am often on a phone that Auto corrects on me, but ur is really not the best way to type things on the site.

What's the correct way? Im foreign and my english is not the best

[Dice_Box]

What's the correct way? Im foreign and my english is not the best

Instead of u type you. ur would equal your. As in "Can I borrow your deck?" and "Do you mind if I come with you on the food run?" Thanks for being understanding.

[fluuu]

Instead of u type you. ur would equal your. As in "Can I borrow your deck?" and "Do you mind if I come with you on the food run?" Thanks for being understanding.

Fluu, please use proper spelling and grammar when you can. I know I am not perfect for this since I am often on a phone that Auto corrects on me, but ur is really not the best way to type things on the site.

[Dice_Box]

Fluu, please use proper spelling and grammar when you can. I know I am not perfect for this since I am often on a phone that Auto corrects on me, but ur is really not the best way to type things on the site.

Yes, please use "your" in place of ur and "you" in the place of u when your typing. Please PM me if you have any questions.

[fluuu]

Jarvis can I borrow your deck?

[Dice_Box]

Jarvis can I borrow your deck?

The list he used to win the GP is in the threads second post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29193-Deck-R-G-Combo-Lands&p=867743&viewfull=1#post867743) under "Decklists".

[fluuu]

The list he used to win the GP is in the threads second post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29193-Deck-R-G-Combo-Lands&p=867743&viewfull=1#post867743) under "Decklists".

I know that list, but i wonder if he has done any change.

[Chatto]

@ fluuu: have you ever played RGCL? If not, I would probably begin with a basic list. To get the hang of it.

[Dice_Box]

Happy new year everyone.

[Chatto]

Still a couple of hours away here, but nonthelest: happy new year!

[chaosjace]

RIP Combo Lands 2015? Where did everyone go?
What would I even cut for Prime Time in my sideboard?
Looking at
4x Krosan Grip
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Bowchikawowbog
1x Karakas
1x Molten Vortex
2x Choke

[gigapatrick]

RIP Combo Lands 2015? Where did everyone go?
What would I even cut for Prime Time in my sideboard?
Looking at
4x Krosan Grip
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Bowchikawowbog
1x Karakas
1x Molten Vortex
2x Choke

My wife, daughter, and I have been in Florida for the New Year. I've got a bunch of videos to share that I recorded before leaving. Here are the first two:

Building a Fortress #86 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAMnkLt-Js&index=86&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #87 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7bnGLYbDow&index=87&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Neither showcases my best work, so the New Year portends more of the same.

To Chaosjace: Your sideboard seems fine to me. I think maybe Bog is good maindeck right now, as I say in one of these upcoming videos. Choke rules also.

[barcode]

RIP Combo Lands 2015? Where did everyone go?
What would I even cut for Prime Time in my sideboard?
Looking at
4x Krosan Grip
4x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Bowchikawowbog
1x Karakas
1x Molten Vortex
2x Choke

Molten Vortex is way worse than Titan. Karakas and Bog should be in the main deck. There's your two slots. If you're playing 2 Manabond in the main, cut one and add Karakas. Cut a Thicket (down to 2) or Dark Depths (down to 3) for the other land.

[Admiral Nobeard]

The regional LGS I play in Legacy tournaments at is having another tournament. Since I did so wel with Lands last time and I had a freakin' blast with it, I'm playing it again and decided to put all of my time and effort into Lands. (goddamn do I love this deck now) This is the current list I'm running, which I think is a bit outdated. Ive seen some lists start to run Primeval Titan out of the side as another win-con; how good is he in the side? Are there any changes ya'll would make to what I have now?

Side:
1 Karakas
1 Molten Vortex
4 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Trinisphere
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst (soon to be Sphere of Resistance)

Main:
1 Riftstone Portal
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Manabond
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life From the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exlploration
4 Crop Rotation

[barcode]

The regional LGS I play in Legacy tournaments at is having another tournament. Since I did so wel with Lands last time and I had a freakin' blast with it, I'm playing it again and decided to put all of my time and effort into Lands. (goddamn do I love this deck now) This is the current list I'm running, which I think is a bit outdated. Ive seen some lists start to run Primeval Titan out of the side as another win-con; how good is he in the side? Are there any changes ya'll would make to what I have now?

Side:
1 Karakas
1 Molten Vortex
4 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Trinisphere
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst (soon to be Sphere of Resistance)

Main:
1 Riftstone Portal
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Manabond
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life From the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exlploration
4 Crop Rotation

For the sideboard, 3ball is old tech. They're an easy swap for Primetime and the Molten Vortex can become Sphere (thorn) number four.

For the main: I get nervous with only two Taiga since it's very important to have red sources in aggro matchups for Punishing Fire and green sources for Loam. Swapping a fetch for a Taiga is easy. That segues into only 3 Punishing Fire. Yikes. Is Ghost Quarter good enough in your meta to play it over the 4th Punishing Fire? I would also move the Karakas into the main deck since the decks where it is good are important to steal game 1.

I might be the biggest Primeval Titan advocate and I can tell you why it has such a sweet spot in my heart. In the Show & Tell matchups you have a huge advantage since your card wins the game for you almost right away (of course, unless they put Sneak Attack in, in which case you're a sad panda). Primeval Titan is also a big game against graveyard hate decks - including the mirror - because it searches up the combo and can only really be answered with Swords to Plowshares, once resolved. It's usually the biggest creature on the table and even if it isn't if you attack once with it you should have the game well in hand.

[Chatto]

@ barcode: three Taiga? I don't have room for a third one... Care to share your list?

Regarding Prime-time: I agree wholeheartly with what barcode said, it is one of the better SB-cards.

[barcode]

@ barcode: three Taiga? I don't have room for a third one... Care to share your list?

Regarding Prime-time: I agree wholeheartly with what barcode said, it is one of the better SB-cards.

I played this at GP SEATAC:


Main deck:

- 4 Mox Diamond
- 4 Exploration
- 4 Life from the Loam
- 4 Gamble
- 4 Wasteland
- 4 Grove of the Burnwillows
- 4 Thespian's Stage
- 4 Rishadan Port
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 3 Taiga
- 3 Dark Depths
- 3 Tranquil Thicket
- 3 Crop Rotation
- 3 Maze of Ith
- 1 Misty Rainforest
- 1 Wooded Foothills
- 1 Windswept Heath
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Manabond
- 1 Bojuka Bog
- 1 Glacial Chasm
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1 Forest

Sideboard:

- 4 Krosan Grip
- 4 Sphere of Resistance
- 2 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Primeval Titan
- 1 Boil
- 1 Boseiju, Who Shelter's All
- 1 Volcanic Fallout

The only changes I would make for this RGCL list are to cut boil for Choke.

I've since started playing RUGb lands again.

[gigapatrick]

Here are the last three videos I recorded before my holiday vacation. More will come in the future, barring unforeseen circumstances.

Building a Fortress #88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjuUYLKZSco&index=88&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #89
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AMDYmqayg8&index=89&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)
Building a Fortress #90 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs6glTOAyi0)

[Dominic Pain]

Has anyone else been trying out Centaur Vinecrasher? I'm really starting to like the card tbh. GY hate is almost nonexistant in the local metas aside from a few cages and the occasional RIP. Actually won me a game against D&T and almost got there against Mud. Plus, you get to kill your opponent with an Actual Literal EDH Rare™ and that's all kinds of value

[barcode]

Has anyone else been trying out Centaur Vinecrasher? I'm really starting to like the card tbh. GY hate is almost nonexistant in the local metas aside from a few cages and the occasional RIP. Actually won me a game against D&T and almost got there against Mud. Plus, you get to kill your opponent with an Actual Literal EDH Rare™ and that's all kinds of value

There was discussion about this back in this thread but I don't know if anyone has reported on testing for it.

Personally I'd rather pay 2 more for Primeval Titan, which ensures a game win when it resolves by getting lands.

[Dice_Box]

Mine is in the mail. So as of yet no report. (Command packs are a bitch to find singles from.)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Has anyone else been trying out Centaur Vinecrasher? I'm really starting to like the card tbh. GY hate is almost nonexistant in the local metas aside from a few cages and the occasional RIP. Actually won me a game against D&T and almost got there against Mud. Plus, you get to kill your opponent with an Actual Literal EDH Rare™ and that's all kinds of valueI played around with it a bit and found it to just be worse than worm harvest. Miracles was the deck I want this sort of card for and harvest is better in just about every scenario in that matchup except for when you don't have 3 green. I don't really think harvest is where you want to be in RG anyways so I was not very impressed with the card when I was done playing with it.

[hyp3r1on]

Honestly, Centaur Vinecrasher just looks bad. Basically you're paying 4 mana for a vanilla X/X that gets destroyed by STP just as much as Marit Lage. Devoting sideboard slots for this versus high-impact cards like Choke is no contest.

[Dice_Box]

Running it for the mirror. That is why I want to test it.

[hyp3r1on]

Running it for the mirror. That is why I want to test it.

Not to join the barcode fanclub or anything : P - but if you have 4 unmolested mana in the Lands mirror to cast the Centaur - getting to 6 mana shouldn't be much of an issue to cast Primeval Titans and basically auto-win. A card that happens to be solid vs Miracles and Show and Tell decks unlike a vanilla X/X.

[Admiral Nobeard]

For the sideboard, 3ball is old tech. They're an easy swap for Primetime and the Molten Vortex can become Sphere (thorn) number four.

For the main: I get nervous with only two Taiga since it's very important to have red sources in aggro matchups for Punishing Fire and green sources for Loam. Swapping a fetch for a Taiga is easy. That segues into only 3 Punishing Fire. Yikes. Is Ghost Quarter good enough in your meta to play it over the 4th Punishing Fire? I would also move the Karakas into the main deck since the decks where it is good are important to steal game 1.

I might be the biggest Primeval Titan advocate and I can tell you why it has such a sweet spot in my heart. In the Show & Tell matchups you have a huge advantage since your card wins the game for you almost right away (of course, unless they put Sneak Attack in, in which case you're a sad panda). Primeval Titan is also a big game against graveyard hate decks - including the mirror - because it searches up the combo and can only really be answered with Swords to Plowshares, once resolved. It's usually the biggest creature on the table and even if it isn't if you attack once with it you should have the game well in hand.

Mkay, thank you for the side advice. I've liked Prime Time, but didn't know if he was good enough in Legacy to play. For P-Fire and Ghost Quarter, I like the Ghost Quarter for the single reason of the grindy games where strip mine becomes valid over time. It was the sole reason I won games at my last tournament report. I want to add a fourth P-Fire, I just wouldn't know what else to take out. What do you recommend?

[barcode]

Mkay, thank you for the side advice. I've liked Prime Time, but didn't know if he was good enough in Legacy to play. For P-Fire and Ghost Quarter, I like the Ghost Quarter for the single reason of the grindy games where strip mine becomes valid over time. It was the sole reason I won games at my last tournament report. I want to add a fourth P-Fire, I just wouldn't know what else to take out. What do you recommend?

If you're into the long game then Crop Rotation is a good cut for it. You need the Punishing Fires to get to that late game; you'll draw the lands or crop rotations you need later.

Primeval Titan is certainly playable but only really in ramp strategies, which we kind of are. We can cheat lands with Moxes and Explorations and since we play 30+ lands we'll definitely hit them by the time we're interested in casting the Titan. You'll see the 12post playing Primeval Titan too because they can cheat it into play with Show & Tell and they cheat better on mana with Cloudposts.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Riftstone portal, the 4th crop rotation, or moving the bojuka bog to the side and running a leaner board would be my choices if you still want to run ghost quarter but have the 4th punishing fire. You lose a pseudo green source with portal, combo/toolbox potential with rotation, or access to bojuka bog game one. I'm most comfortable with cutting the rotation but I think any of the three is valid.

I'm also a fan of the 3 fetch/3 taiga plan. I feel like it makes punishing fire games quite a bit smoother.

[Admiral Nobeard]

If you're into the long game then Crop Rotation is a good cut for it. You need the Punishing Fires to get to that late game; you'll draw the lands or crop rotations you need later.

My main problem most of the time is that I often switch between wanting to do a long game or a short game, whether it be LD or a quick Lage. Would it be a good idea to move one Crop Rot to the side in cases where I want to go quickly instead of denial? I figure I could switch one Crop Rot for a P-Fire in those games. Or maybe I could put one Fire in the side?


Riftstone portal, the 4th crop rotation, or moving the bojuka bog to the side and running a leaner board would be my choices if you still want to run ghost quarter but have the 4th punishing fire. You lose a pseudo green source with portal, combo/toolbox potential with rotation, or access to bojuka bog game one. I'm most comfortable with cutting the rotation but I think any of the three is valid.

I'm also a fan of the 3 fetch/3 taiga plan. I feel like it makes punishing fire games quite a bit smoother.

If I moved Bog to the side, would it be good to just cut Molten Vortex out? That's the best option I've found since I never really use Vortex and never want to draw it, it just seemed good for a bit. As for the 3/3 split on fetches and taiga plus forest, why is that better over four fetches and three taiga/one forest?

[gigapatrick]

Building a Fortress #91 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvkQV1N6Xo0&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=91)

Enjoy

[Crimhead]

As for the 3/3 split on fetches and taiga plus forest, why is that better over four fetches and three taiga/one forest?Too many slots for non-utility.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

My main problem most of the time is that I often switch between wanting to do a long game or a short game, whether it be LD or a quick Lage. Would it be a good idea to move one Crop Rot to the side in cases where I want to go quickly instead of denial? I figure I could switch one Crop Rot for a P-Fire in those games. Or maybe I could put one Fire in the side?



If I moved Bog to the side, would it be good to just cut Molten Vortex out? That's the best option I've found since I never really use Vortex and never want to draw it, it just seemed good for a bit. As for the 3/3 split on fetches and taiga plus forest, why is that better over four fetches and three taiga/one forest? I was referring to a 4/2/1 split of fetches/taigas/forests. I just like having more taigas to fetch in games where I need to punishing fire the opponent out. It's not all upside because you won't see a fetch as often as you would with the normal setup of 4/2/1. That makes loam slightly worse when you can't find a fetch or if you need your forest badly.

I'm not a fan of vortex so it seems like a fine cut to me. It's ok but it certainly isn't necessary.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I was referring to a 4/2/1 split of fetches/taigas/forests. I just like having more taigas to fetch in games where I need to punishing fire the opponent out. It's not all upside because you won't see a fetch as often as you would with the normal setup of 4/2/1. That makes loam slightly worse when you can't find a fetch or if you need your forest badly.

I'm not a fan of vortex so it seems like a fine cut to me. It's ok but it certainly isn't necessary.

I think I'm confused here. Are you saying that the 3/3/1 split is better, but there is some loss in consistency with the loss of the extra fetch? But that loss is usually few and far between and only makes sense in "oh shit" scenarios? For Vortex, would it just be good to replace it with the Crop Rot I take out of the main? I'm thinking of switching 1 Crop Rot with the Vortex and then just replacing Vortex with the fourth P-Fire. Then I'd take out one fetch for the third Taiga. Does that sounds about right for the main?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Pretty much except I don't think better is really the right term. Like anything else there are pluses and minuses to the change and one configuration isn't "better" than the other. I tend to get into long grindy games so I prefer having access to another taiga since I expect to see a fetch at some point. I think the taiga is more useful in the long game and the fetch is more useful early.

[Chatto]

(...) For Vortex, would it just be good to replace it with the Crop Rot I take out of the main? I'm thinking of switching 1 Crop Rot with the Vortex and then just replacing Vortex with the fourth P-Fire. Then I'd take out one fetch for the third Taiga. Does that sounds about right for the main?

Do you mean 3 CR and 4 Pfire? Remember to always check the meta (fair/ control/ combo?) Marit Lage is our only 'real' MD wincon: getting it online quick can be crucial. It's not like we have a looping board-sweeper (EE) to give us time to set up our combo. I wouldn't cut CR that easily (but it would be an easier cut than, say, Pfire). So, yeah, sounds solid.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Do you mean 3 CR and 4 Pfire? Remember to always check the meta (fair/ control/ combo?) Marit Lage is our only 'real' MD wincon: getting it online quick can be crucial. It's not like we have a looping board-sweeper (EE) to give us time to set up our combo. I wouldn't cut CR that easily (but it would be an easier cut than, say, Pfire). So, yeah, sounds solid.

Here are the changes I've made so far:

Main: -1 Fetch, -1 Crop, +1 P-Fire, +1 Taiga
Side: -1 Molten Vortex, -2 Trinisphere, +1 Crop, +2 Prime Time

For me, these changes seem pretty good considering the tourney I'm going to at the end of the month. It's the only place near me that does legacy tourneys and it's always fair decks that usually make the top 8. The only exception to the rule is my recent first place finish and my friend coming in fourth on the same day playing dredge. So far, we're the only non-"fair" decks around. Everybody else seems to be playing Miracles, Stoneblade, Delver, Junk, Jund, or Shardless BuG. I think adding one more removal spell may help a lot.

[Croprot]

Current side board is this. Thoughts?
4 grips
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 prime time
1 bog
2 choke

Notes:
Main board boseiju because it makes game 1 against miracles very favorable.
Main board karakas

[barcode]

Current side board is this. Thoughts?
4 grips
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 prime time
1 bog
2 choke

Notes:
Main board boseiju because it makes game 1 against miracles very favorable.
Main board karakas

This looks like my sideboard except I play Bog in the maindeck and Boseiju in the side. Two life to cast a spell that would resolve anyways is a high price in some game 1s.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Current side board is this. Thoughts?
4 grips
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 prime time
1 bog
2 choke

Notes:
Main board boseiju because it makes game 1 against miracles very favorable.
Main board karakas

Would move Boseijus and Karakas to the side, trimming the prime-times, unless all you are playing against are Emrakuls, Griselbrands and Counter-Top, but I'd probably recommend you play another deck if you're in that meta.

Seems fine other then that, you have 4 Grips/Spheres which is mandatory imo.

[Croprot]

Would move Boseijus and Karakas to the side, trimming the prime-times, unless all you are playing against are Emrakuls, Griselbrands and Counter-Top, but I'd probably recommend you play another deck if you're in that meta.

Seems fine other then that, you have 4 Grips/Spheres which is mandatory imo.

I'm sick of miracles so I put it to the main also because it's just strong in my opinion against blue decks. Also I haven't really tested with prime time but I wanted to try it out.

[gigapatrick]

Just another video:

Building a Fortress #92 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WTGkodjRbw&index=92&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[gigapatrick]

More videos for the interested:

Building a Fortress #93 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbfX5Xl5JBE&index=93&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #94
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Q0GtEoxJA&index=94&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[The_Dingo]

I played in a 124 player tournament on Saturday and before the event a friend convinced me to play a worm harvest in the main. It was very good to me all day. Although to be perfectly honest it only won me 1 game that I would not have otherwise won, but in several games it became a quicker win condition because I was able to get it going quicker than I could find stage depths, and it was certainly quicker than punishing someone to death.

It was meant to be main deck anti miracles tech although I (un)fortunately didn't play against miracles all day, so I never got to see how it did against that deck. In limited subsequent testing it proved quite versatile in an offensive and defensive capacity, and a fast and reliable alternate win condition. My list was pretty stock RGCL apart from the worm harvest.

Has anyone else tried it in RGCL, or are people just playing it in RUG lands?

[Ancestral]

More videos for the interested:

Building a Fortress #93 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbfX5Xl5JBE&index=93&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #94
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Q0GtEoxJA&index=94&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

seems like storm its a big portion of MTGO no? that gets the things harder to grind online.

[Nikolai004]

seems like storm its a big portion of MTGO no? that gets the things harder to grind online.

My experience has been mostly storm or miracles with some BUG/4C Delver.

[gigapatrick]

Yeah, I've been facing a lot of Storm recently. I started to record another video yesterday, but I didn't feel like sharing yet another Storm matchup (which I won, fortunately). At least, with Sphere effects, Storm is a beatable, if uninteresting, matchup. Haven't faced a Delver deck in a little while, which is too bad.

[gigapatrick]

Here are some more videos for the interested.

Building a Fortress #95
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydYycWDGmE8&index=95&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)
Building a Fortress #96 (Eight-Man Round One) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrFNndoKgDM&index=96&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #97 (Eight-Man Round Two) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8xJybq2ROE&index=97&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #98 (Eight-Man Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidkHWH1bpY&index=98&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Upon rewatching #95, I noticed that I make a significant blunder at the end of game one, a simply boneheaded misplay that makes no sense. Oh well.

[Ancestral]

Here are some more videos for the interested.

Building a Fortress #95
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydYycWDGmE8&index=95&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)
Building a Fortress #96 (Eight-Man Round One) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrFNndoKgDM&index=96&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #97 (Eight-Man Round Two) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8xJybq2ROE&index=97&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #98 (Eight-Man Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidkHWH1bpY&index=98&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Upon rewatching #95, I noticed that I make a significant blunder at the end of game one, a simply boneheaded misplay that makes no sense. Oh well.


nice, more videos to see, even against a lot of storm, i (personally) like a lot, because its a hard matchup for sure, and we have a clear plan, but navegate that plan requires a lot of dicisions in a very shor period of time, so its very interessting to see the lines you take

[Dice_Box]

Got my foil Grove yesterday. It is the most beautiful card I have even seen. It makes foiling the deck alone worth it. Well that and the Judge Maze.

[Fordin]

Here are some more videos for the interested.

Building a Fortress #95
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydYycWDGmE8&index=95&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)
Building a Fortress #96 (Eight-Man Round One) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrFNndoKgDM&index=96&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #97 (Eight-Man Round Two) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8xJybq2ROE&index=97&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Building a Fortress #98 (Eight-Man Finals) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidkHWH1bpY&index=98&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Upon rewatching #95, I noticed that I make a significant blunder at the end of game one, a simply boneheaded misplay that makes no sense. Oh well.

Thanks for sharing and the commentary! I enjoy listening to the thinking that goes on in your head.

The significant blunder you're referring to, is it not burning the insect and flying to victory a turn earlier?

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for sharing and the commentary! I enjoy listening to the thinking that goes on in your head.

The significant blunder you're referring to, is it not burning the insect and flying to victory a turn earlier?

Yep. I guess I just thought getting rid of both of his guys made victory certain, but I didn't even think about him not being able to block if he had no insect . . .

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Got my foil Grove yesterday. It is the most beautiful card I have even seen. It makes foiling the deck alone worth it. Well that and the Judge Maze.What do you have left to foil out?

[Dice_Box]

Ports, Depths, Fetches, get the Tagia's sent to poxy14 for altering, 2 Exploration, 3 Grove, 1 more Judge Maze and 2 Titan's.

[barcode]

and 2 Titan's.

Oh yeah. ;)

[Rivfader]

I've been wondering if Warping Wail would be an interesting sideboardcard, especially the countermode versus combo (Exhume/Reanimate, Infernal Tutor, Show And Tell, Burning Wish ...).
The colorless mana doesn't seem a problem as we have 16 colorless sources.
The creaturekill mode also nails some relevant creatures, like mom's, DRS, Painter's Servant, Infect creatures, Elves...
And the tokenmode possibly accelerates the creation of Marit Lage a turn.

It's reactive though, and we usually want to use mana like for port activations. On the other hand, in the crucial turn of creating Marit Lage versus combo, we are more vulnerable as we have to leave 3 mana open.
What do you guys think?

[Dice_Box]

What would you take out for it and what do you feel you gain with the trade?

[Rivfader]

What would you take out for it and what do you feel you gain with the trade?

What I like about the card is that it gives interaction with the stack, which is something we hardly can (safe from croprotating in response). Spheres and Chalice are great against some matchups (Storm), but are somewhat lustlackers versus others (like Sneakshow).
There's a scenario which happens quite often to me, landing spheres, porting versus combo, until you've got the combopieces together. But then there's the moment that you need to leave 3 mana open (not using port) to make Marit Lage EOT, which is the moment where I often still loose the game. Warping Wail would work here.

I don't think WW is an amazing card. It's versatile, but it's especially the counterpart that's interesting, and countering a sorcery for 2 is probably not good enough. Still, a colorless counterspell is tempting, and I might test it along with 4 spheres (the spheres might avoid a counterwar too).

[djxstream]

There's a scenario which happens quite often to me, landing spheres, porting versus combo, until you've got the combopieces together. But then there's the moment that you need to leave 3 mana open (not using port) to make Marit Lage EOT, which is the moment where I often still loose the game. Warping Wail would work here.

I do hate that scenario...and do love the idea of having that as an out.

Also great vs mother of runes because its colorless
Also vs veteran explorer or painters servant because its exile

And dont forget this sweet tech....make a 1/1 token in response to any "sac a creature you control" trigger

that said, its on my list of things to test out

[Layalouhamesh]

What I like about the card is that it gives interaction with the stack, which is something we hardly can (safe from croprotating in response). Spheres and Chalice are great against some matchups (Storm), but are somewhat lustlackers versus others (like Sneakshow).
There's a scenario which happens quite often to me, landing spheres, porting versus combo, until you've got the combopieces together. But then there's the moment that you need to leave 3 mana open (not using port) to make Marit Lage EOT, which is the moment where I often still loose the game. Warping Wail would work here.

I don't think WW is an amazing card. It's versatile, but it's especially the counterpart that's interesting, and countering a sorcery for 2 is probably not good enough. Still, a colorless counterspell is tempting, and I might test it along with 4 spheres (the spheres might avoid a counterwar too).

I'm not completely convinced personally. The card seems quite sexy, but SB slots are very costy, and I feel like WW would weaken the non-combo matchups.
I think the best way to deal with the situation you're talking about is to wait a few more turns to gather enough mana to both port and make the token.

[djxstream]

Does anyone else find it somewhat comical that Grove of the burnwillows is more expensive than Taiga ??

[Dice_Box]

Modern Tron.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Here's a video. Enjoy.

#99 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_znDjwANJo&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=99)

[Cfetchcaviar]

Hello all. Here's a video. Enjoy.

#99 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_znDjwANJo&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=99)

Are you drinking coffee in your videos?

If you are, I'll mail you a care package of coffee i roast and jank that will never make the 75. In honor of your 100th video

[Admiral Nobeard]

Has anyone tried out Sea Gate Wreckage yet? I've been thinking of adding it to my list, but I'm not sure it'd be worth it since it would require games to be grindier and go longer to really be effective. What do ya'll think?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Has anyone tried out Sea Gate Wreckage yet? I've been thinking of adding it to my list, but I'm not sure it'd be worth it since it would require games to be grindier and go longer to really be effective. What do ya'll think?

Naah.

I'm only ever hellbent in game one. I'd rather have horizon canopy. Three mana is enough to loop loam and horizon canopy (or thicket). Would sooner play ceph coliseum over Seagate wreckage.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I'm only ever hellbent in game one. I'd rather have horizon canopy. Three mana is enough to loop loam and horizon canopy (or thicket)

That's why I'm adamant about using it; because it's easier to keep Thicket in hand and use it when you need to as compared to having met certain conditions. Also b/c Sea Gate has to be in play, so that's another downside.

[gigapatrick]

Are you drinking coffee in your videos?

If you are, I'll mail you a care package of coffee i roast and jank that will never make the 75. In honor of your 100th video

That day, I was drinking tea, though I normally drink coffee and would love to try a home-roast.

[Crimhead]

I've been wondering if Warping Wail would be an interesting sideboardcard...
There are versions of this deck with healthy access to blue mana which still don't run counter-magic. Of course this isn't just counter-magic, it also kills litle creatures. So in Lands I think it's comparable to Abrupt Decay, except itvcvounters sorceries instead of blowing up artifacts and enchantments.

So maybe you are thinking of putting these into Grip slots? I don't like that, because most of the hate cards we need to deal with (RIP, Moon, etc) are not vulnerable. Even Magus can't be killed by this unless we float colourless mana while he's on the stack.

If you want it vs combo, I also don't recommend cutting Spheres or Chalices, which are probably just better.

So now we are getting into our 3-7 more flexible SB slots. These are being fought over by:

* GQ/Karakas/Bog (whatever isn't in the main)
* Needles
* Choke
* Seismic Assault (or Molten Vortex)
* Titan
* Boseiju

And maybe some other options I'm forgetting because it's early and I need more caffine.

I guess WW looks technically playable, but I suspect the opportunity cost is just too high.



And dont forget this sweet tech....make a 1/1 token in response to any "sac a creature you control" trigger

that said, its on my list of things to test outI don't think this is that great. Most of the answers to Marit Late are targeted. Swords, Submerge, Chain Of Vapors, Flickerwisp, Jace etc. Good against Lili I guess, but for me Lili decks are not the MUs that drive my sideboard choices.


Does anyone else find it somewhat comical that Grove of the burnwillows is more expensive than Taiga ??Yeah, I'm glad I have my plasyset! Something very gross about paying money for a reprintable Modern staple in excess of the cost of RL Legacy staples! It would make me throw up some I think. :cry: