[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

And maybe some other options I'm forgetting because it's early and I need more caffine.
Titan. (Maybe I should have left this for Barcode to point out...)

[Rivfader]

There are versions of this deck with healthy access to blue mana which still don't run counter-magic.

That's a sound argument, as WW is worse than most blue counterspells in manacost and restriction. I already gave the card a spin in some games, but especially used it for it's creatureremoval mode (although it was slotted for its anticombo countermode).

[gigapatrick]

Not a perfect video by any means, but here's

#100 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9S050fl_c&index=100&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh).

[Rivfader]

Not a perfect video by any means, but here's

#100 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9S050fl_c&index=100&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh).

100 vids! Although I usually don't comment them, I appreciate them a lot.
Keep em comming!

[gigapatrick]

#101 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a85Nf98SpkQ&index=101&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#102 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjn5poeegBc&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=102)

[Lysandros]

So apparently SoI cards are being spoiled and one of them was an Envelop that acts as a Surgical Extraction to the sorcery it counters...for one mana still. I can't imagine that won't be in every sideboard that can run it given how it hoses most all combo. Sucks for Lands big time.

[Nikolai004]

So apparently SoI cards are being spoiled and one of them was an Envelop that acts as a Surgical Extraction to the sorcery it counters...for one mana still. I can't imagine that won't be in every sideboard that can run it given how it hoses most all combo. Sucks for Lands big time.

Invasive Surgery - U (Uncommon)
Instant
Counter target sorcery spell.
Delirium - If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, search the graveyard, hand, and library of that spell's controller for any number of cards with the same name as that spell, exile those cards, then that player shuffles his or her library.


At first I thought it just straight up surgicaled the sorcery but that Delirium requirement won't always be easy to hit and can be played around at least. 3 different types will be easy that 4th though may prove more difficult for most decks. Land, instant, sorcery will almost always be the first 3 then creature to be the 4th which will be harder for decks to have set up.

I also imagine it checks twice, once upon cast and once upon resolution so we could do something like surgical the 4th card type or rotate into bog to stop it.

[Dice_Box]

I bought a second Foil Bog last week, one for the side and one for the Main. Thinking it was a good call.

[barcode]

I bought a second Foil Bog last week, one for the side and one for the Main. Thinking it was a good call.

Maindeck bog is the place to be!

[Crimhead]

I also imagine it checks twice, once upon cast and once upon resolution so we could do something like surgical the 4th card type or rotate into bog to stop it.
More likely it only checks when the spell resolves. Why would it need to check upon casting? There are no casting off srgetting conditions related to delirium.

[gigapatrick]

So apparently SoI cards are being spoiled and one of them was an Envelop that acts as a Surgical Extraction to the sorcery it counters...for one mana still. I can't imagine that won't be in every sideboard that can run it given how it hoses most all combo. Sucks for Lands big time.

It's scary to think about, but I imagine that only decks that already want to play Envelop will use this. It's narrower than Surgical Extraction since it only works under certain conditions (can only be used when Loam or Fire is on the stack, four card types must be in the graveyard), so I really don't want to panic hard about this when it's not likely to make a huge impact.

[Chatto]

It's not that hard to accomplish in the more grindy MU, but I agree it's pretty narrow. I don't think we should be that scared. Let's just hope this new set will bring our deck something good :smile:

[Dice_Box]

The deck is so standardised now it would take a very special card to break into it.

[Chatto]

MD indeed, but we're (well, I am) still looking for that very special SB-card. In the meantime, I'm sticking with Primeval Titan

[Nikolai004]

MD indeed, but we're (well, I am) still looking for that very special SB-card. In the meantime, I'm sticking with Primeval Titan

I had high hopes for Thief of Blood but... sadly double black isn't as easy as double green. And it requires you to have depths in play already.

[barcode]

MD indeed, but we're (well, I am) still looking for that very special SB-card. In the meantime, I'm sticking with Primeval Titan

Primeval Titan is special enough. :)

[Chatto]

Primeval Titan is special enough. :)

I knew you were going to say that :laugh:

[djxstream]

#101 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a85Nf98SpkQ&index=101&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)


i really hate high tide.

[Croprot]

i really hate high tide.

It's just one of those match ups that is so bad for us but like Belcher, no one plays it. I much prefer having Belcher and high tide as the worst match ups than say delver or stone blade. When you consider what the actual abysmal match ups for lands is we are really high up in the food chain compared to other decks.

[Dice_Box]

Primeval Titan is special enough. :)

Barcode, you may.. um... have an um... addiction... Just thought I might point that out.

[gigapatrick]

i really hate high tide.

I don't hate it; I actually like the deck. But getting crushed by it two games in a row kinda sucks.

[barcode]

Barcode, you may.. um... have an um... addiction... Just thought I might point that out.

Look, when my opponents allow me to cheat it into play for free I'm going to take it and then crush them with the advantage.

When I play the mirror I'm going to crush it because I'll have an unbeatable trump card (unless you people start following along).

I don't have an addiction! I can stop any time I want...

In unrelated news... did I mention that I shelved RUGb lands and went back to RG?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

In unrelated news... did I mention that I shelved RUGb lands and went back to RG?Same here. For me it's been a combination of just getting better at playing lands against miracles and RUG not really providing much benefit in the online meta of storm, delver, storm, miracles. There just aren't a ton of reasons to play it outside of "cuz it's more fun".

[Chatto]

@ barcode and supremePineapple: a friend of mine wants to build RGCL, but doesn't have all the cards yet. He can, however, put RUG Lands together. He wanted to know from me what the difference is between the two, and I (being only really familiar to RGCL) said to him that RUG Lands is more controlish. Would you both agree with such a (simple) description?

During practise-MU's vs Miracles I was unable to break CT/SDT postboard. Any tips? SB looks like this:

1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Choke
2 Primeval Titan
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

Also, I've read at the RUG Lands-thread that some have dropped Glacial Chasm. Are we still holding on to Glacial Chasm?

[Adamovic]

Hi guys.

Just recently put the deck together and have been having a blast playing it so far. Been mostly playing blue for 6 or so years but lands is more fun than anything else I've tried so far!

I see some people championing PrimeTime which is certainly interesting. I'm having a hard time visualizing the scenarios where he's winning me games. Probably just me having never tried him, but I would appreciate some more in depth reasoning behind him other that "he's the bomb". Maybe it's hidden in the thread somewhere I've just not found it.
I've had him unused in my binder since valakut was a thing in standard so please give me an excuse to play him! :-)

Shout out to Gigapatrick for the videos. Watched almost all of them while trying to convince myself that tabernacle wasn't that expensive. They definitely helped push me over the edge.

Loving the general discussion and will try and weigh in where I believe my, granted limited, experience with the deck will allow.

About the new envelop/surgical: I don't believe we should be too scared. I'm having a hard time seeing it being played as a four of in legacy when original envelop sees next to no play.

Over and out from Denmark

[barcode]

Hi guys.

Just recently put the deck together and have been having a blast playing it so far. Been mostly playing blue for 6 or so years but lands is more fun than anything else I've tried so far!

I see some people championing PrimeTime which is certainly interesting. I'm having a hard time visualizing the scenarios where he's winning me games. Probably just me having never tried him, but I would appreciate some more in depth reasoning behind him other that "he's the bomb". Maybe it's hidden in the thread somewhere I've just not found it.
I've had him unused in my binder since valakut was a thing in standard so please give me an excuse to play him! :-)

Shout out to Gigapatrick for the videos. Watched almost all of them while trying to convince myself that tabernacle wasn't that expensive. They definitely helped push me over the edge.

Loving the general discussion and will try and weigh in where I believe my, granted limited, experience with the deck will allow.

About the new envelop/surgical: I don't believe we should be too scared. I'm having a hard time seeing it being played as a four of in legacy when original envelop sees next to no play.

Over and out from Denmark

Consider that 12post plays Primeval Titan ONLY as a ramp spell. Modern Amulet plays Titan to fish up busted lands to kill quickly. Why can't we leverage the same Titan to bust up some players?

Titan is a win condition on its own that doesn't rely on the graveyard or casting Life from the Loam. Have you had your Loams extracted yet? It is going to be bigger than every other creature on the battlefield (that we care about) and demands an immediate answer. Sneak & Show can't beat if if we put it in off an early Show and Tell.

So which lands do we get? If we need combo pieces we can get it. If we need a Tabernacle we can get one of those. If we need to protect our combo we can fish up Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, or we can even just get more Stages. Maybe we just need some Grove of the Burnwillows. Heck, maybe we get Glacial Chasm + sacrificial land to stay alive until we can attack.

If we can attack we'll be very far ahead indeed.

[barcode]

I playtested RG Lands against UW Miracles (4 Ponder, 4 Mentor main w/ a daze or two) for four hours last night.

Here's what I learned:

Sphere of Resistance is terrible and so is Choke. They have at least one Wear//Tear, possibly two, and they just aren't impactful enough. Plus, Sphere hurts Lands more when Miracles can select its cards with two-mana cantrips and Top. I would MUCH rather have Boil over Choke against Miracles. Choke might remain useful in other matchups, like Temur Delver or 4 Colour Delver, but I have to see.

Pithing Needle is great and I'll never forsake it again. I'm sorry, Pithing Needle, can we get back together again?

Chalice of the Void remains fantastic. It's must answer and doesn't really slow our own gameplan down.

Crop Rotation is good and should stay in post-board. This is to my great shock. Yes, it sucks when there's a Counterbalance but so do all of our other spells. But when we're both topdecking or at parity Crop Rotation is great.

Primeval Titan is great, of course.

I actually think I'm going to cut a Tranquil Thicket (to 2) and play the Riftstone Portal.

These things from Miracles are rough:

From the Ashes - I lost every game where he resolved it, except for one! (with chalice on 1, make a 20/20 in response to Ashes and have plow protection). This card is insane.

Monastery Mentor is a pain because we have to keep in Tabernacle and Punishing Fires. And boy is Tabernacle ever insane against that strategy.

[UnsungHero]

I playtested RG Lands against UW Miracles (4 Ponder, 4 Mentor main w/ a daze or two) for four hours last night.

Here's what I learned:

Sphere of Resistance is terrible and so is Choke. They have at least one Wear//Tear, possibly two, and they just aren't impactful enough. Plus, Sphere hurts Lands more when Miracles can select its cards with two-mana cantrips and Top. I would MUCH rather have Boil over Choke against Miracles. Choke might remain useful in other matchups, like Temur Delver or 4 Colour Delver, but I have to see.

Pithing Needle is great and I'll never forsake it again. I'm sorry, Pithing Needle, can we get back together again?

Chalice of the Void remains fantastic. It's must answer and doesn't really slow our own gameplan down.

Crop Rotation is good and should stay in post-board. This is to my great shock. Yes, it sucks when there's a Counterbalance but so do all of our other spells. But when we're both topdecking or at parity Crop Rotation is great.

Primeval Titan is great, of course.

I actually think I'm going to cut a Tranquil Thicket (to 2) and play the Riftstone Portal.

These things from Miracles are rough:

From the Ashes - I lost every game where he resolved it, except for one! (with chalice on 1, make a 20/20 in response to Ashes and have plow protection). This card is insane.

Monastery Mentor is a pain because we have to keep in Tabernacle and Punishing Fires. And boy is Tabernacle ever insane against that strategy.

We have had some local events with unlimited proxy, and a lot of people are on miracles. Its a super frustrating match up. I totally agree about Boil being better than choke. I've been on Boil for awhile, and where I have never resolved it, it has always been a counter this or die sort of scenario. With Boseiju its also super hilarious. I also really enjoy Primetime. Against Reanimator a couple of weeks ago, I blind cycled thicket to dredge a loam, in response to an exhume, Dredging a Primetime. It was hilarious!

I've also considered going back to needle as well, mainly because I hate top and Deathrite Shaman. Despite being able to burn deathrite, I still have trouble with it time to time.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Good stuff barcode, I've come to pretty similar conclusions. My current general boarding strategy for miracles is +3 chalice, +4 grip, +1 titan, - 3 maze, -1 glacial chasm, -1 bojuka bog, -1 manabond, -2 crop rot. It changes around depending on the build obviously but mentors have been everywhere so I've been keeping in all the punishing fires and the tabernacle. I may have to give needle another shot in the choke slot since choke is rarely a blowout these days.

Mentor can be annoying as shit. I got beat by tinfins boarding into mentor when I was playing aggro loam the other night. It was so annoying that he could still run me over even with a chalice out. My SB tabernacle was just staring at me while I had multiple knights on board holding off his monks.

@Chatto, to me the difference between RUG and RG comes down to intuition vs. gamble. One is a bit more proactive while the other lets you be a lot more reactive. That change also affects the win conditions and card choices that work in each deck. Gamble works much better with the streamlined wincons in RG than it does with any of the fun shit you can get away with playing in RUG. If your buddy can build RUG then I say go for it, it's still amazing versus fair decks.

[Adamovic]

@barcode: thanks for the reply. Sounds like I'll have to give the Titan a shot.
What matchups do you bring him in? I'm not really worried about matchups with 1 shot graveyard interaction, relic/extraction type effects only. Main problem I'm finding is the permanent ones like RIP or leyline. But resolving Titan against miracles for instance sounds difficult for me. Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with your assessment of choke. As much as I love that card it feels underwhelming a lot of the time. Playing it out only for the opponent to decay of wear//tear it and move on really sucks. Even though boil is only one shot I think it serves us better, especially against miracles.
My sideboard will definitely be updated.

From the ashes is just dirty. Hope not to many miracles pilots are reading this thread...

[gigapatrick]

#103 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxTScj0LrsU&index=103&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[Darkgobs]

I playtested RG Lands against UW Miracles (4 Ponder, 4 Mentor main w/ a daze or two) for four hours last night.

Here's what I learned:

Sphere of Resistance is terrible and so is Choke. They have at least one Wear//Tear, possibly two, and they just aren't impactful enough. Plus, Sphere hurts Lands more when Miracles can select its cards with two-mana cantrips and Top. I would MUCH rather have Boil over Choke against Miracles. Choke might remain useful in other matchups, like Temur Delver or 4 Colour Delver, but I have to see.

[...]

Chalice of the Void remains fantastic. It's must answer and doesn't really slow our own gameplan down.

[...]


First of all, thank you for sharing your conclusions!
I am then wondering: considering what you said about SoR and Chalice, would you consider adjusting the list to a 3-3 split instead of the current standard 4-2 split?
Or is Sphere that better than Chalice against Storm / Sneak-Show, so that we have to keep 4 Spheres in?

[barcode]

First of all, thank you for sharing your conclusions!
I am then wondering: considering what you said about SoR and Chalice, would you consider adjusting the list to a 3-3 split instead of the current standard 4-2 split?
Or is Sphere that better than Chalice against Storm / Sneak-Show, so that we have to keep 4 Spheres in?

Right now this second I have these in my deckbox (well, they'll be put back, I have them out to record the contents) for my sideboard:

2 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
2 Primeval Titan
1 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void

I could see dropping a Choke for a third Chalice. I actually don't think Sphere of Resistance is good vs Sneak & Show because we need our answers (K-Grip, etc) to be cheap since the opponent can get an early-game mana advantage with sol lands. Cursed Totem is an underperformer, by the way and might be on the way out, perhaps for more graveyard hate.

[Darkgobs]

Thanks for your answer. By the way, don't you feel that the 6th SoR/3Sphere/Chalice is needed? I personnaly wouldn't go wiithout it. I guess the totem took this 6th slot (you said totem was not that good here anyway).
And I also guess you would/will - according to what you said - remove 1 Choke for 1 Boil?

[Admiral Nobeard]

I honestly don't know what I've done, but I've been experimenting since Oath came out and I'm not sure what good it'll do in the future, but I've had good results so far. In short, I've eschewed the traditional grind and combo of lands and instead going balls to the ground and playing the game of "how fast can I dump this hand into play". Obviously there are huge problems with this, but there are also huge upsides such as guaranteed T1-T2 Lage. The problems I've come across with this style of deck is the fact that everything depends on your opening hand, so it's kinda like playing No Land Scoop or Belcher, but with lands. The idea came after I had massive problems at my last legacy tourney in which I was prohibited by only playing one land per turn and getting smashed by multiple large doods such as KotR while an opponent's Chalice kept Manabond or Exploration from landing. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Life From the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Manabond

4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Sea Gate Wreckage

Sideboard:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
2 Choke

Like I said: balls to the ground and as close to going combo as quick as possible. In this version, Sea Gate is amazing at both regular card draw and dredging Life if you can activate it. However, because I changed it to strictly going combo ASAP without deck manipulation or consistent draw, variance in combo is high, making the need for a loam in the opening hand almost necessary, which sucks. What do ya'll think? Can Lands be shifted to a full frontal combo deck? My results so far with this have been half good and half bad, but I still have a lot more testing to do.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I honestly don't know what I've done, but I've been experimenting since Oath came out and I'm not sure what good it'll do in the future, but I've had good results so far. In short, I've eschewed the traditional grind and combo of lands and instead going balls to the ground and playing the game of "how fast can I dump this hand into play". Obviously there are huge problems with this, but there are also huge upsides such as guaranteed T1-T2 Lage. The problems I've come across with this style of deck is the fact that everything depends on your opening hand, so it's kinda like playing No Land Scoop or Belcher, but with lands. The idea came after I had massive problems at my last legacy tourney in which I was prohibited by only playing one land per turn and getting smashed by multiple large doods such as KotR while an opponent's Chalice kept Manabond or Exploration from landing. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Life From the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Manabond

4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Taiga
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forest
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Sea Gate Wreckage

Sideboard:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
2 Choke

Like I said: balls to the ground and as close to going combo as quick as possible. In this version, Sea Gate is amazing at both regular card draw and dredging Life if you can activate it. However, because I changed it to strictly going combo ASAP without deck manipulation or consistent draw, variance in combo is high, making the need for a loam in the opening hand almost necessary, which sucks. What do ya'll think? Can Lands be shifted to a full frontal combo deck? My results so far with this have been half good and half bad, but I still have a lot more testing to do.

This is a control/prison deck though, you should find a way to be content with making a single land drop a turn. The match up you are describing is aggro loam, which is unfavorable to begin with. I wouldn't build a deck in response to one bad match up. There are lands list going for the balls to the wall side of things. look up turbo depths. That is where you might want to get some advice.

This is not "Balls to the Wall" I'm not saying it isn't worth trying though, I love being hellbent with manabond+thicket+loam. I feel like this is half ass on the all in plan.

you dont want to play lands mate, you want to play turbo depths.
4 depths,
4 Crop rot
4 into the north/sylvan scrying or whatever this deck plays
snow covered forest

Maybe a +petrified field over a seagate to recur a combo piece and -1 manabond. This is very all in on a generate value from seagate wreckage+loam+ramp enabler. I dont like that line since it doesn't inherently win games. it just generates card advantage (which i know is good). http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths


Dude, i don't even leave my house without four punishing fire in my pocket. I wouldn't submit a deck with less than 4 mainboard. Its such a great card.


my current SB (Heavy miracles/painter meta):
4 grip
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 boil
aura fracture
wildfire
molten vortex

[Admiral Nobeard]

This is a control/prison deck though, you should find a way to be content with making a single land drop a turn. The match up you are describing is aggro loam, which is unfavorable to begin with. I wouldn't build a deck in response to one bad match up. There are lands list going for the balls to the wall side of things. look up turbo depths. That is where you might want to get some advice.

This is not "Balls to the Wall" I'm not saying it isn't worth trying though, I love being hellbent with manabond+thicket+loam.

Maybe try 4 depths, 4 Crop rot

Maybe a +petrified field over a seagate to recur a combo piece and -1 manabond. This is very all in on a generate value from seagate wreckage+loam+ramp enabler. I dont like that line since it doesn't inherently win games. it just generates card advantage (which i know is good)

Dude, i don't even leave my house without four punishing fire in my pocket. I wouldn't submit a deck with less than it. Its such a great card.

Its hard to judge the list without results from an event, or a way for us to goldfish it. Maybe submit a tappedout link with the deck.

my current SB (Heavy miracles/painter meta):
4 grip
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 boil
aura fracture
wildfire
molten vortex

What are the upsides of playing Turbo Depths over RG? And how bad of a matchup is aggro loam for us? I always thought it was a 50-50 chance?

[gigapatrick]

Here's a link to a video by an actual pro, someone who probably doesn't misclick his way through a turn like I do. Don't know how many of you have seen this, but enjoy.

Daryl_Ayers piloting Rg Lands on Modo
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoNUe1eCSrI)

[Cfetchcaviar]

What are the upsides of playing Turbo Depths over RG? And how bad of a matchup is aggro loam for us? I always thought it was a 50-50 chance?

The upsides are speed. downside is lacking versatility and resilience. RG has resilience against a wide range of decks and a towering advantage over creature based strategies.

The Aggro loam match feels like 65/35. I can beat players outside my store but the guys running around my meta smoke me.
I don't really care for turbo depths. It executes a cute card interaction very well, and sometimes wins games. Lands attacks from many angles, one hand to throttle you out of casting spells, the other to beat the love and trust out of whatever miserable pile of cards you are playing with. The way magic was meant to be.


Gigapatrick: check ya inbox

[Admiral Nobeard]

The upsides are speed. downside is lacking versatility and resilience. RG has resilience against a wide range of decks and a towering advantage over creature based strategies.

The Aggro loam match feels like 65/35. I can beat players outside my store but the guys running around my meta smoke me.
I don't really care for turbo depths. It executes a cute card interaction very well, and sometimes wins games. Lands attacks from many angles, one hand to throttle you out of casting spells, the other to beat the love and trust out of whatever miserable pile of cards you are playing with. The way magic was meant to be.


Gigapatrick: check ya inbox

Well....I do love putting people in miserable prisons. Additionally, maybe you could help with this: do you think my board could benefit from Prime Time? The shoppe I play Legacy at consists of mostly fair decks and I'm looking to exploit that.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Well....I do love putting people in miserable prisons. Additionally, maybe you could help with this: do you think my board could benefit from Prime Time? The shoppe I play Legacy at consists of mostly fair decks and I'm looking to exploit that.


I am not interested in building decks with 3 seagate wreckage. I would start with a stock list from the primer and adjust to your current meta. if your shop has fair decks, start with 4 punishing fire in the main. and read the primer. The gospel of primetime is shared by many on the board. The prophet Barcode can lead you to the path of righteousness with regards to the giant.

[hyp3r1on]

As a lifelong fan of drawing cards and doing nothing ever since Library of Alexandria was a card; as much as I wanted to love it when it was spoiled - Sea Gate Wreckage is just not good in a Lands shell. It's basically inferior to Thicket and Canopy and ultra mana intensive - mana that is better spent porting etc.

The only Legacy deck I feel can support something like Sea Gate is something like Death and Taxes or MUD where in long drawn out games - theyre usually desperate for some form of card advantage.

[Admiral Nobeard]

As a lifelong fan of drawing cards and doing nothing ever since Library of Alexandria was a card; as much as I wanted to love it when it was spoiled - Sea Gate Wreckage is just not good in a Lands shell. It's basically inferior to Thicket and Canopy and ultra mana intensive - mana that is better spent porting etc.

The only Legacy deck I feel can support something like Sea Gate is something like Death and Taxes or MUD where in long drawn out games - theyre usually desperate for some form of card advantage.

I understand that now. I playtested on Cockatrice last night for upwards of about four hours and I think I've come to the conclusion that Sea Gate is mediocre at best. I think I'd be better off playing more Thicket. Also, not having P-Fire is a bitch and half. Man, do I feel stupid now.

[barcode]

Additionally, maybe you could help with this: do you think my board could benefit from Prime Time? The shoppe I play Legacy at consists of mostly fair decks and I'm looking to exploit that.

Absolutely. Aggro Loam can't beat Primeval Titan. They can't counterspell it and they can't remove it.

[Rivfader]

I understand that now. I playtested on Cockatrice last night for upwards of about four hours and I think I've come to the conclusion that Sea Gate is mediocre at best. I think I'd be better off playing more Thicket. Also, not having P-Fire is a bitch and half. Man, do I feel stupid now.

You shouldn't feel like that, cause it's only through experimenting and playtesting you'll know which cards to play. Even if the conclusion is negative, there's always value in sharing your experience.

[barcode]

You shouldn't feel like that, cause it's only through experimenting and playtesting you'll know which cards to play. Even if the conclusion is negative, there's always value in sharing your experience.

This this this! There is no harm in testing various cards together.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I understand that now. I playtested on Cockatrice last night for upwards of about four hours and I think I've come to the conclusion that Sea Gate is mediocre at best. I think I'd be better off playing more Thicket. Also, not having P-Fire is a bitch and half. Man, do I feel stupid now.


You did an excellent thing testing it. Don't feel stupid :)

[Cfetchcaviar]

Absolutely. Aggro Loam can't beat Primeval Titan. They can't counterspell it and they can't remove it.

Liliana.

[gigapatrick]

Liliana.

And Knight of the Reliquary is often bigger than Prime Time.

[barcode]

Liliana.

I'm okay with that trade. I'm also kind of surprised if they leave it in. Is it normal for them to do so?


And Knight of the Reliquary is often bigger than Prime Time.

Titan can fetch two mazes: one to give Titan "vigilance" to fetch more busted lands and one to keep Titan in check, or a Bog to neuter Knight.

Seriously, Primeval Titan is a cure-all. :cool: :tongue:

[Admiral Nobeard]

So what is the best and fastest way I can deal with Aggro Loam? Every match I've had against it has been terrible, smiliar to an 80/20 matchup; mostly due to them landing Chalice before I drop an accelerant or too many Knights. Or both.

[Rivfader]

So what is the best and fastest way I can deal with Aggro Loam? Every match I've had against it has been terrible, smiliar to an 80/20 matchup; mostly due to them landing Chalice before I drop an accelerant or too many Knights. Or both.

Your best bet versus them is comboing before a Knight gets online, as it can can hold of Marit Lage by getting Wasteland or Karakas, and because they don't run Swords to Plowshares.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Your best bet versus them is comboing before a Knight gets online, as it can can hold of Marit Lage by getting Wasteland or Karakas, and because they don't run Swords to Plowshares.

Is there a way to fight a T1 Chalice from them, or just a Chalice before I get Bond or Exploration out? I've considered adding one Bayou for Abrupt Decay, but I'm not sure that's worth it just for Chalice.

[Rivfader]

Is there a way to fight a T1 Chalice from them, or just a Chalice before I get Bond or Exploration out? I've considered adding one Bayou for Abrupt Decay, but I'm not sure that's worth it just for Chalice.

They will usually board in Leyline of the Void against you, so I'd pack all your Krosan Grips in the matchup. I think lately Abrupt Decay has become better because of Monastery Mentor and the popularity of 4cloam (I often run a 2-2 split myself, splashing a little black).

[Admiral Nobeard]

They will usually board in Leyline of the Void against you, so I'd pack all your Krosan Grips in the matchup. I think lately Abrupt Decay has become better because of Monastery Mentor and the popularity of 4cloam (I often run a 2-2 split myself, splashing a little black).

When you say 2-2, you mean 2 Decay and 2 Grip?

[Rivfader]

When you say 2-2, you mean 2 Decay and 2 Grip?

Yes, I've been doing that for quite some time. It probably has to do with a personal affection for the card as well, but as I've said before, I've experienced that Abrupt Decay has become a better option since MM, and against Knight of the Reliquary now that 4cLoam is becoming very popular.

[djxstream]

between my under performing Karakas and this threads love of prime time lately. I'm thinking of making the swap for this weekend...thoughts?

[barcode]

So what is the best and fastest way I can deal with Aggro Loam? Every match I've had against it has been terrible, smiliar to an 80/20 matchup; mostly due to them landing Chalice before I drop an accelerant or too many Knights. Or both.

I treat aggro-loam as a lands mirror. I want to have fast mana online quickly and I want to deny their mana with Wasteland and Krosan Grip. As secondary goals I want to attack their graveyard with Bojuka Bog and keep their 4 creatures (Knights) from hitting me (the others don't matter because they die to Punishing Fire).

[Chatto]

between my under performing Karakas and this threads love of prime time lately. I'm thinking of making the swap for this weekend...thoughts?

What do you mean with swap? I like Karakas as a SB-card, and I like Prime-Time. So, I pack both.

[gigapatrick]

#104 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGuUf9nOLo&index=104&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#105 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZDWJgMQn18&index=105&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Enjoy. Forgive some of my petulance for facing Storm for the billionth time.

[grmpytopdecker]

Feeling really frustrated lately at my LGS due to a stretch where I face tons of combo or never seem to draw into my good cards against the good match-ups. This past Friday was rough in our 4 rounds of FNM

0-2 vs Death and Taxes where I drew 1 Punishing Fire in both games and stupidly chose to K-Grip a revoker instead of Rest In Peace thinking "I can draw into a Crop rotation or Depths"

1-2 vs. Dark Petition Storm where I lost on turn 2, won on turn 4, lost on turn 2

0-2 vs. Omni Tell where I lost on turn 2 in both games

2-0 against an inexperienced Miracles pilot who I kept off white mana

9-15 so far in our first quarter Legacy league (our store is doing quarterly invitational events but I won't be able to play anyway because I will be away the weekend of the event) and so frustrated at not winning the match-ups that are good. I know learning how to play against tough match-ups is the key to learning the deck but getting told "sorry man, tough match-up" gets old.

Multiple storm, Omni-Tell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Belcher, 12 Post, multiple D & T, BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and then a few randos.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Lysandros]

#104 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oGuUf9nOLo&index=104&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#105 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZDWJgMQn18&index=105&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Enjoy. Forgive some of my petulance for facing Storm for the billionth time.

Patrick - When you're getting ready to film do you join a 2 Man and sit there waiting for an opponent? If so, you might consider waiting and joining once someone else enters the room first. With 105 videos under your belt, you're a known commodity now as a Lands player. I guarantee people grab their Storm deck and jump into the room with glee when they see you sitting there because it's such a good matchup for them. I've got a couple decks on MODO, and when I see people who I know are on a certain deck I'm more than happy to give myself an edge and jump in with something with a favorable matchup (unless I'm testing). Just a thought. You are facing an inordinate amount of combo in your 2 Mans.

[Dice_Box]

My new token.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/b989380eea2d7eec046dc6cb91055fce/tumblr_nwa3hxE5n81sg7jk7o1_540.png

[Chatto]

That is one sweet, fingerlicking good Avatar. The flavour and art are spot-on!

[Admiral Nobeard]

That has to be the most adorable way to die from Marit Lage. My current token for ML is the Toothless Frank pug token made by RK Post. I have him in a perfect fit sleeve and just wrote on the sleeve the information I needed.

[gigapatrick]

Patrick - When you're getting ready to film do you join a 2 Man and sit there waiting for an opponent? If so, you might consider waiting and joining once someone else enters the room first. With 105 videos under your belt, you're a known commodity now as a Lands player. I guarantee people grab their Storm deck and jump into the room with glee when they see you sitting there because it's such a good matchup for them. I've got a couple decks on MODO, and when I see people who I know are on a certain deck I'm more than happy to give myself an edge and jump in with something with a favorable matchup (unless I'm testing). Just a thought. You are facing an inordinate amount of combo in your 2 Mans.

Yeah, I have been facing combo a lot. Usually I just join a queue regardless of whether there's another player in it or not. I think I'll take your advice and wait until there's already someone in the queue.

On another note, I'm super excited about Legacy Leagues going live on Wednesday. Hope to make some League videos soon.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I'll be in there with ya as soon as they start up. I've had Lands together online forever but hate playing in the tournament style events because I have no attention span/time. Leagues have been awesome for me in other formats so I'm so excited to play legacy in them finally.

Hopefully port gets reprinted in the eternal masters set too so more people can start playing Lands online. It and death and taxes are criminally underrepresented.

[Dice_Box]

And so I can get Foils.

Sadly I will likely bet not though, thanks to the release of the Judge Foil.

[gigapatrick]

Speaking of combo matchups, here's another one:

#106 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbz5zkvWeU4&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=106)

[Chatto]

Ok, I'm debating on which deck I'm going to bring to a tournament this saturday. The meta will something around the lines of this:

- various Delver.decks
- Miracles
- Storm.deck
- Reanimator
- Maverick
- Eldrazi

Eldrazi has been quiet the hype around here. That's why I'm afraid there will be a lot of Blood Moons around. My SB looks like this:

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Karakas
1 Primeval Titan
2 Boil
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

MB is pretty stock, still considering if I should swap a Tranquil Thicket for a Horizon Canopy. Any suggestions for the SB are welcome.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Super close to what I'm running now, just -2 boil, +1 chalice, +1 thorn.

What other decks are you considering?

[hyp3r1on]

I'll probably eternally prefer Choke over Boil, but that's just me. If you're expecting Eldrazi you should feel pretty happy playing Lands. I've tested that matchup for a few hours and Lands does a pretty good job at mopping that deck up. This is what I run with RG Lands:

x4 Krosan Grip
x4 Sphere of Resistance
x2 Chalice of the Void
x2 Choke
x1 Karakas (MD Bog)
x1 Pithing Needle
x1 Thorn of Amethyst (Flex slot, depending on what you expect in the meta. More combo/More control/More aggro)

[Chatto]

@ supremePINEAPPLE: I was thinking about my old favorite: Goblins. I want to test Warpjng Wail. Also, last time I took RGCL to a tournament I didn't do that good. I've been pretty tired with work and all, and at times like these: Goblins, my very first Legacy deck, is my deck to go to. RGCL is not a deck you 'just' take to a tournament without being properly rested.

@ hyp3r1on: I just recently picked Boil up, before that I packed -2 Boil, +1 Choke +1 Prime-time. Just testing, we'll see how it feels in the SB. I was not all that worried about Eldrazi, but I think we can be collateral damage when Blood Moon is popping up everywhere.

[hyp3r1on]

@ hyp3r1on: I just recently picked Boil up, before that I packed -2 Boil, +1 Choke +1 Prime-time. Just testing, we'll see how it feels in the SB. I was not all that worried about Eldrazi, but I think we can be collateral damage when Blood Moon is popping up everywhere.

Fair. If I'm expecting a lot of permanent hate like Blood Moon etc, I like a copy of Seal of Primordium to compliment the playset of Grips.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Going to SCG Philly, I hope i can see some of y'all there.

im trying aura fracture in philly as a one of to compliment my grips.

[barcode]

Fair. If I'm expecting a lot of permanent hate like Blood Moon etc, I like a copy of Seal of Primordium to compliment the playset of Grips.

I tried Seal and it's not very good. It gets countered by Counterbalance and doesn't resolve against blue Blood Moon decks. Krosan Grip is the business.

[hyp3r1on]

Seal's not amazing by any means but it's probably the next best "permanent hate" answer after x4 Grips in the RG shell. I wouldn't really run them and they're not great vs Miracles, but if you know there's a bunch of random decks with Blood Moons or Winter Orbs floating around in a room I could see using one.

[djxstream]

Seal's not amazing by any means but it's probably the next best "permanent hate" answer after x4 Grips in the RG shell. I wouldn't really run them and they're not great vs Miracles, but if you know there's a bunch of random decks with Blood Moons or Winter Orbs floating around in a room I could see using one.

i've seen some eldrazi players pack some Tsabo's Web as well. (not to mention also maindeck karakas, so be on your toes people)

[blubberpompnao]

i've seen some eldrazi players pack some Tsabo's Web as well. (not to mention also maindeck karakas, so be on your toes people)

Yeah I got hit with Tsabo's Web today while playing RUG Lands, I wasn't too impressed by it's showing but it did slow me down a couple turns and forced me to Engineered Explosives it away before I continued on my way. I guess that's a bit harder to do when you're playing RGCL but you all play Grips so I wouldn't be too worried.

[Chatto]

Fair. If I'm expecting a lot of permanent hate like Blood Moon etc, I like a copy of Seal of Primordium to compliment the playset of Grips.

Very proactive choice, and vunerable.


Going to SCG Philly, I hope i can see some of y'all there.

im trying aura fracture as a one of to compliment my grips.

Sounds like a plan. Don't you find it hard to cast, being 2W?


I tried Seal and it's not very good. It gets countered by Counterbalance and doesn't resolve against blue Blood Moon decks. Krosan Grip is the business.

So what enchantment-hate is there to compliment our K-Grip? Any preferences?

[Cfetchcaviar]

Very proactive choice, and vunerable.



Sounds like a plan. Don't you find it hard to cast, being 2W?



So what enchantment-hate is there to compliment our K-Grip? Any preferences?

I've never had trouble casting it. Between karakas, mox, stage copying their plains its a breeze to cast. If I ran riftstone portal it would be even better

[barcode]

So what enchantment-hate is there to compliment our K-Grip? Any preferences?

Engineered Explosives or splash a Bayou for Abrupt Decay.

[Djehuti]

So what enchantment-hate is there to compliment our K-Grip? Any preferences?

Jarvis mentioned tranquil grove and aura fracture around the time of GP SeaTac. Tranquil grove hits your exploration which is a bummer. Aura fracture costs white so you may need to run something like 4 fetchlands and riftstone portal in the main, savannah and karakas in the side. I never tested it but reducing the number of business sideboard cards by 1 to facilitate casting the others seems rough. I'm assuming the miracles match up is the main reason for wanting extra enchantment hate, aura fracture happens to be harder to counter off counterbalance and can be used immediately with only 3 mana available as long as you have a land. I think someone else mentioned splashing black for abrupt decay which might be a bit more graceful.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Jarvis mentioned tranquil grove and aura fracture around the time of GP SeaTac. Tranquil grove hits your exploration which is a bummer. Aura fracture costs white so you may need to run something like 4 fetchlands and riftstone portal in the main, savannah and karakas in the side. I never tested it but reducing the number of business sideboard cards by 1 to facilitate casting the others seems rough. I'm assuming the miracles match up is the main reason for wanting extra enchantment hate, aura fracture happens to be harder to counter off counterbalance and can be used immediately with only 3 mana available as long as you have a land. I think someone else mentioned splashing black for abrupt decay which might be a bit more graceful.

I have been the only person actively testing with aura fracture (AFAIK) and talking about it since seatac. Jarvis mentioned he might play it if he knew the meta was gonna have a bunch of bloodmoons. It's been very good to me. I play two fetchlands, 2 taiga, karakas main and have no trouble casting it. My side board has no Savannah. Or riftstone portal. The matchups I need it in I play very tight. I get rewarded every time it resolves.

[snorlaxcom]

I have been the only person actively testing with aura fracture (AFAIK) and talking about it since seatac. Jarvis mentioned he might play it if he knew the meta was gonna have a bunch of bloodmoons. It's been very good to me. I play two fetchlands, 2 taiga, karakas main and have no trouble casting it. My side board has no Savannah. Or riftstone portal. The matchups I need it in I play very tight. I get rewarded every time it resolves.

I've been testing grove and aura fracture since early last year and dropped them since omni got neutered. I tried to play it at least for value on one enchantment because I saw many wear/tear/snap caster from miracles whenenver I preemptively dropped it. It was also weak when they had a strong mentor draw and never played enchantments. It gives you control of fasbonds vs Lands variants, but I never drew it during my matches here and coming down for 3 mana in a mana denial game is risky. My sb only had 1.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I've been testing grove and aura fracture since early last year and dropped them since omni got neutered. I tried to play it at least for value on one enchantment because I saw many wear/tear/snap caster from miracles whenenver I preemptively dropped it. It was also weak when they had a strong mentor draw and never played enchantments. It gives you control of fasbonds vs Lands variants, but I never drew it during my matches here and coming down for 3 mana in a mana denial game is risky. My sb only had 1.

These are Similar problems I've had with one ofs. Abrupt decay would be a sweet card in that situation. Gambling for a one of sucks. And three mana can be tough if the have an aggro hand. But in the long games where miracles usually takes us its a huge swing. I can spare 3 mana in grindy match ups. When it lands, it bring us back to the game plan of denying white mana and lage. My meta has a significant miracles/4x leyline meta. Have you tried a one of abrupt decay?

[Djehuti]

I get rewarded every time it resolves.

Glad its working out! Maybe I'll get to see it in action at scg philly :wink:

[gigapatrick]

First Modo Legacy League match:

#107 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnc_bTs324M&index=107&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[Croprot]

It's unfortunate but I won't be able to make the scg event in Philly, however good news everyone. I have done some extensive testing against that eldrazi aggro deck that's been popping up a lot and it's a very favorable match up for us. Also check the prices on mox diamond since the announcement of eternal masters. I know I enjoy it when a card in my deck triples in value.

[heckler]

I've played against the 16 sol land eldrazi deck a bit (colorless and R/B versions) and so far we are finding that it's soft to decks that regularly disrupt mana sources. also, tabernacle causes some odd issues paying for creatures with eye of ugin in play. The problem is that with the way my sideboard is constructed, I only have K grips to side in against it.

The deck seems to whollop tempo decks and control decks much of the time.

[gigapatrick]

I've played against the 16 sol land eldrazi deck a bit (colorless and R/B versions) and so far we are finding that it's soft to decks that regularly disrupt mana sources. also, tabernacle causes some odd issues paying for creatures with eye of ugin in play. The problem is that with the way my sideboard is constructed, I only have K grips to side in against it.

The deck seems to whollop tempo decks and control decks much of the time.

Perhaps I'm a bit off topic here, but I'd really like to know more about these Legacy Eldrazi decks. The only one I've seen online was a version of Reanimator, a deck that I think is not indicative of the MUD-like archetype that must be evolving. MUD seems like a good match for us in any case (the only time I remember losing to it was during a paper tournament when I first picked up Lands), so I'm wondering how competitive this new deck can really be.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

There is a whole thread where people are working on it in the new and developmental section if you haven't seen it yet. It starts to get serious after the influence from the modern pro tour that just happened. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30299-DECK-Eldrazi-Stompy

The tl:dr is that it's a 16 sol land deck that plays eye of ugin and eldrazi temple in addition to city of traitors and ancient tomb to power out the new eldrazi cards from oath of the gatewatch. In my opinion thought-knot seer is the only reason it's even close to a deck in legacy. It's basically a goyf-sized vendillion clique they can cast off of 2 lands. If you've payed any attention to the nonsense going on in modern it's essentially the same thing except it's not nearly as powerful in legacy compared to the rest of the format as it is in modern.

[Croprot]

If anyone is going to the EE satellite series thus weekend, I'll see you there. It's in Newton Connecticut 741 new Britain Avenue.

[gigapatrick]

Second League match:

#108 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVTHvV_dEIs&index=108&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Alas, Storm again. Five out of the last eight matches I've played have been variants of Storm, and two of those eight have been variants of Reanimator. I also played against Landstill. Here's hoping my final three League matches showcase more variety.

[Crimhead]

Perhaps I'm a bit off topic here, but I'd really like to know more about these Legacy Eldrazi decks...

...I'm wondering how competitive this new deck can really be.
I'm of the mind that it will be potentially tier one. Some people think all stompy drcks need is a little more consistency. The extra sol lands should come in handily in that regard, plus the deck has a lower and smoother curve. Eldrazis Shops also has more interaction than MUD lists.

Personally I think even traditional MUD is stronger than its showings indicate, and that it held back by a lack of players because people find it ungratifying to win with, frustrasting to lose with, and/or overestimate the impact of the deck's consistency issues. More people might play this deck becuase it is less inconsistent and more interactive. But mostly I think people will flock to this Eldrazi Shops becuase it will be banned out of Modern and all they will need is Tombs and 3x City (Mox is optional I think).

What does it mean for us?

The MU should be good, but maybe not as favourable as MUD (especially if MUD is running Cloudpost). They have more sol lands for a faster start, creatures which we can't PF or KG, and some interactive Elements like Thought Knot, Wail, and Endbringer. But they should still be very easy to mana-screw, and besides Endbringer they have no answer for Marit Lage. They also often don't run Wastelands, so that makes life easy for us.

Obviously it remains to be seen how good this deck will really be, as well as what the final version ends up looking like. But I wouldn't be worried about it. If the deck becomes very strong we might get some splash damage from an increase of Moon decks, but it's a little early to speculate about significant shifts in the meta. Although certainly some smaller, localised, metas will be affected.

[Morte]

I'm of the mind that it will be potentially tier one. Some people think all stompy drcks need is a little more consistency. The extra sol lands should come in handily in that regard, plus the deck has a lower and smoother curve. Eldrazis Shops also has more interaction than MUD lists.

Personally I think even traditional MUD is stronger than its showings indicate, and that it held back by a lack of players because people find it ungratifying to win with, frustrasting to lose with, and/or overestimate the impact of the deck's consistency issues. More people might play this deck becuase it is less inconsistent and more interactive. But mostly I think people will flock to this Eldrazi Shops becuase it will be banned out of Modern and all they will need is Tombs and 3x City (Mox is optional I think).

What does it mean for us?

The MU should be good, but maybe not as favourable as MUD (especially if MUD is running Cloudpost). They have more sol lands for a faster start, creatures which we can't PF or KG, and some interactive Elements like Thought Knot, Wail, and Endbringer. But they should still be very easy to mana-screw, and besides Endbringer they have no answer for Marit Lage. They also often don't run Wastelands, so that makes life easy for us.

Obviously it remains to be seen how good this deck will really be, as well as what the final version ends up looking like. But I wouldn't be worried about it. If the deck becomes very strong we might get some splash damage from an increase of Moon decks, but it's a little early to speculate about significant shifts in the meta. Although certainly some smaller, localised, metas will be affected.

Substantially agree. The main reason why Legacy Eldrazi is a thing is that it has favorable matchup against both Miracles and ANT. And, it is generally well placed against the format. It has the possibility to produce a substantial change in the metagame, by reducing the presence of both currently most popular tier 1s. That can only be good news for us.

Please note that while Legacy Eldrazi is still far from a general consensus about the best version, for sure it will be different from a simple Legacy improvement from Modern. Aside Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher, in Legacy another Eldrazi is very good: Eldrazi Displacer. And, the versatility of World Breaker and the tutoring effects of Eye of Ugin and Conduit of Ruin greatly improves the adaptability of the deck against different situations.

Personally, my favorite version is the GW midrange build proposed by Barook (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30299-DECK-Eldrazi-Stompy&p=931637&viewfull=1#post931637): it has the same positive matchup against Miracles and ANT, and it has powerful answers against the issues of other builds versus S&T, D&T, Delver decks and Batterskull decks. With maindeck Displacers - an answer to Marit Lage not easy to remove - and sideboard RIP, I'm not so sure that our matchup is still so favorable. Its only real nightmare, ironically, is the same as ours - Painter. Another deck that could see a rise in the future metagame. So, there are pros and cons. In the next weeks we'll have a better idea of what's going to happen.

[Crimhead]

Personally, my favorite version is the GW midrange build proposed by Barook (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30299-DECK-Eldrazi-Stompy&p=931637&viewfull=1#post931637)...

...With maindeck Displacers - an answer to Marit Lage not easy to remove - and sideboard RIP, I'm not so sure that our matchup is still so favorable.
The deck is still extremely easy to mana screw (and they don't have much for colour fixers). If you imagine the mu from their perspective, you'll see a clear fact: Eldrazis are like bears - they are more afraid of us then we are of them. Take it from Barook's own experience with his deck:


I said "Fuck it" and bought back into MTGO with my GW build since I'm fully convinced the deck is the real deal. I'll also track all all pre- & post-board wins as well as total match %.

Went 2-3 on the first run, but got also unlucky since I got 2 bad match-ups. Losses were against Burn, Lands (ugh) and Shardless BUG (made some mistakes here). Wins were against Deathblade and LED Dredge.

[gigapatrick]

Third League match:

#109
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUcmqkP9e1A&index=109&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)
It isn't a combo deck!

[LordOMJ]

We managed to land two copies in the Top 8 of the EE4 Satellite in Newington, CT (98 players, 7 rounds of swiss), but unfortunately neither of us could break the top 4. I may put together a tournament report if I have time. It was my first time piloting the deck for an event longer than 4 rounds, so I'm definitely happy with the result, but looking back I recognize key misplays in both rounds I lost on the day.

[Nikolai004]

We managed to land two copies in the Top 8 of the EE4 Satellite in Newington, CT (98 players, 7 rounds of swiss), but unfortunately neither of us could break the top 4. I may put together a tournament report if I have time. It was my first time piloting the deck for an event longer than 4 rounds, so I'm definitely happy with the result, but looking back I recognize key misplays in both rounds I lost on the day.

Congrats on the finish!

If you can't put out a tournament report, happen to have a decklist?

[djxstream]

SCG just posted this about our lovely non-blue legacy deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32439_This-Land-Is-Your-Land.html

I for one will be rocking it in philly.

[Rampart]

SCG just posted this about our lovely non-blue legacy deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32439_This-Land-Is-Your-Land.html

I for one will be rocking it in philly.

I wouldn't rock that list. It's a little out dated.

[barcode]

I wouldn't rock that list. It's a little out dated.

Yeah, agreed.

My changes would be:

-1 Manabond
-1 Ghost Quarter
-1 Crop Rotation
+1 Punishing Fire
+1 Dark Depths
+1 Taiga

SB
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Punishing Fire
+2 Choke or Boil

[LordOMJ]

I wrote up a tournament report for my top 8 performance at the EE4 Satellite event in Newington, CT. The event had 98 players and 7 rounds of swiss. Despite my best efforts to be brief it wound up a bit long-winded. I had a blast playing, so I hope you enjoy reading.

TL;DR / Match Breakdown
Round 1 – Jund (1-2)
Round 2 – Lands (2-1)
Round 3 – Enchantress (2-0)
Round 4 – Deathblade (2-0)
Round 5 – Maverick (2-0)
Round 6 – Grixis Delver (2-1)
Round 7 – Enchantess (1-1-1)
Top 8 – Miracles (1-2)

The List:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Punishing Fire
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
2 Boil
1 Molten Vortex
1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Round 1 - Ryan (Jund)
G1: I open the tournament on the draw with a 7 card hand that has 2x Diamond, Stage, Depths, and another land. If I hit a land in either of my first two draw steps, I’ll have a turn 2 Marit Lage. Unfortunately, my first draws are Exploration and a third Diamond. The rest of my draws aren’t enough to overcome his interaction. Bummer.
G2: Swung for lethal with Marit Lage turn 3. Now that’s what we’re looking for.
G3: Open my third consecutive hand that had the potential to make Marit Lage turn 2. With DRS in play, I tank on when to activate Stage. My turn dodges Wasteland, his turn dodges Liliana. I opt to make it on my turn, figuring I’m 50/50 at worst and he may have boarded out some number of Liliana. Sometimes you lose the coin flip. The game goes long after that, but a few unlucky die rolls hit the wrong card off of Gamble and I eventually lose.

Round 2 – Josh (Lands)
G1: My opponent mulls to 4. It wasn’t close.
G2: My 7 is missing Loam, but otherwise the nuts. As best I can recall, the game went something like this. After I dump my hand with Manabond on turn 3, my board includes 2 Wasteland, both combo pieces, and 2 additional mana. His has a Grove and a Wasteland. I Waste his Grove, which he (as expected) crop rotates it away. I believe he gets a Taiga. I then Waste his Wasteland, forcing him to use it or lose it. He does, and I of course respond by making Marit Lage. One we get to his main phase he casts Gamble. I miss the Karakas, and he keeps the match going. After that, it turns into an attrition mirror where we both have Karakas and multiple Maze. He assembles Loam + Thicket faster and takes it.
G3: We both have openers that include Exploration, Diamond, Loam, and lands. After a few turns I Grip his Exploration and my Loam (plus a Wasteland) trumps his.

Round 3: Adam (Enchantress)
G1: Opponent mulls to three on the play. Once it becomes clear that he is on Enchantress I’m extra grateful for my luck and kill him before he has the opportunity to find an Elephant Grass. That is NOT a card we can beat game 1.
G2: Fortunately, my teammate is an enchantress pilot and I’ve dabbled with the deck myself, so I have a very clear plan of what needs to happen for us beat the deck. In this particular case, the plan is smile when my opening 7 has a copy of CotV, then say the word “Countered” a lot as he cycles Wild Growths and Elephant Grass’s futilely trying to find relevant cards.

Round 4: David (Deathblade)
G1: David sees that I’m on lands, and comments about being completely unprepared for this matchup. He manages to fend off what could have been a turn 2 kill, but I have Loam and MC Hammer’s spirit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo).
G2: He manages to establish pressure this game, eventually getting me down to 4 life. Without needing to worry about burn, though, I never felt pressured (I had a Chasm in hand and no need to play it). Boil and Tabernacle are a wombo-combo, and I get to goldfish until he decides to scoop.
Bonus Round: We play a two more preboard games because he wants to practice the matchup. Neither is remotely close. After winning 7 consecutive games (even if only 5 counted) I’ve managed to get rid of the sour taste in my mouth from round 1.

Round 5: Meritt (Maverick)
Meritt and I play together locally. When we sit down, he comments that he doesn’t think he’s ever beaten me (I’m not sure if that’s true) and the he hopes I’m not on Lands because he just drew against it last round. Time for the pair up.
G1: Mulled to 6 but still swung for lethal turn 3. One of several times on the day where I took the ‘make them have it’ line. Fortunately, Meritt didn’t have a StP for Marit. Somehow it took until writing this report to notice how similar those names are…
G2: After a quick game 1, this one goes a bit longer. He Bojuka Bog’s away a graveyard with Wasteland, Loam, and other goodies, but after a few turns of me drawing well Meritt has no permanents on board and is discarding to hand size.

Round 6: Ed (Grixis Delver)
Not knowing how many X-1’s there are left, this is either a win-and-in or very close. After losing round 1, I didn’t really have any expectations for how the rest of the day would go. As we shuffled up for game 1, the possibility of a top 8 is finally starting to feel real.
G1: I keep a slow 6 and get punished by multiple Delver of Secrets.
G2: I catch Ed off guard with a quick CotV and an extra mana available so he can’t daze. He plays a Young Pyromancer and runs some cantrips into CotV to make tokens. Tabernacle and Wasteland come along to clean up his motley crew.
G3: Ed opens with DRS, followed by 2 Delver of Secrets. I Waste him down to one land and crop rotate for Tabernacle with mana floating to pay for daze. He exiles my Waste to sustain Delver and DRS, but when the Delver doesn’t flip loses it a turn later. We stare at each other for a few turns – he pays for DRS and I port his only other land, but DRS is preventing me from casting loam to start dredging. Then Ed misses Deathrite’s Tabernacle trigger. Without the Elvish menace I quickly fill my graveyard and remove his board of permanents.

Round 7: Curtis (Enchantress)
My teammate and I are paired together in the final round of swiss, only to find that we’re in 9th and 10th as the lowest seeded X-1’s. Mathematically, we should have to play it out, but notice a few tables above us are also playing it out because people want to improve their seed for the top 8. The X-1 with the pair up has to lose, but there’s a shot we can still get in.
G1: I open a 7 that perfectly describes Lands strongest plan against Enchantress – Exploration and multiple Rishadan Port. Only one of us gets to develop our board state, and I’m quickly up a game.
G2: I open with an Exploration into Port. He tanks on his turn 2 with only a plains untapped, and I give him a hard time because I know he doesn’t have any white 1 CMC enchantments in his 75 except Guard Duty (which he obviously wouldn’t bring in for the Lands matchup). He plays Needle, and mulls out loud whether to name Port or Stage. He opts for Stage. I flash him the Stage and Depths waiting in my hand to make a turn 2 Marit Lage. I find a Krosan Grip, but not before he also found Sterling Grove and Elephant Grass.
G3: As we’re starting game three, we start noticing the higher tables finishing their matches. Fortune smiles our way, and the X-1 with the pair up loses. I offer Curtis the draw and we punch our tickets to the top 8.

Top 8: Royce (Miracles)
G1: Royce takes the play as the #1 seed. I Crop Rotate away a Grove to present a turn 3 attack from Marit Lage, but he has the StP. Oh well, sometimes they have it. The game grinds on, I kill a Monastery Mentor but take damage in small chunks from a SCM and monk token. As soon as I cast Punishing Fire I realized that I made a huge mistake by losing Grove to Crop Rotation rather than my Port. Definitely cost myself that game.
G2: Attacked turn 3 with Marit Lage. Royce Brainstorms for Terminus or StP, but whiffs. Sometimes they don’t have it.
G3: I made a Marit Lage on turn 3 or 4, but he had top to dig for Terminus. The deciding moment came a few turns later. When played and Brainstormed with Jace, I attempted to kill it with two Punishing Fire. He had Force for the second copy, and kept 2s on top for counterbalance after that. I had 2x Loam, 2x Fire, and was stonewalled until he found RiP. I managed to make one more Marit Lage off the top, but Entreat provided a chump blocker and dudes to swing for lethal after Jace bounced my token.

Takeaways:
1. I made Marit Lage on turn 2 way more often than I expected to. I successful killed 3 different opponents on turn 3, and had 4 other openers that threatened to do so.
2. It’s a bummer costing myself a game in the top 8, but I’m not too down on myself. I’d only played two 4-round events with the deck before this, so if anything realizing my mistake quickly is just making me that much more excited for SCG Philly next weekend.
3. To be frank, I still don’t feel like I have enough reps to say anything authoritative about my sideboard choices. They’re all solid cards and there for a reason. I definitely liked the 3rd Taiga over the 4th fetch. At least one opponent got thrown off game 1 when I played a Misty/Verdant and passed. I don’t know that it had a practical impact on their lines, but it made me chuckle.
4. My MVP of the day is my round 7 opponent and teammate Curtis. More than just a member of Team Ohnobadno and Team Monsterghost, Curtis has been pushing me to play Lands seriously for months. Apparently you were right, buddy. Thanks a bunch.

[Varal]

Round 3 – Enchantress (2-0)
Round 4 – Deathblade (2-0)
Round 5 – Maverick (2-0)
Round 6 – Grixis Delver (2-1)
Round 7 – Enchantess (1-1-1)


I have only played Enchantress once and the matchup seemed nigh unbeatable. I know that a quick Marit Lage can let you win, but is there anything else that lets you get good results in the matchup?

[barcode]

I have only played Enchantress once and the matchup seemed nigh unbeatable. I know that a quick Marit Lage can let you win, but is there anything else that lets you get good results in the matchup?

Rishadan Port, Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance (plus the obvious Krosan Grips) are, in that order, the best things to have in the matchup.

The Enchantress matchup, like Infect, is all about retarding their setup and controlling the game. They can kill you on turn 2 or 3 sometimes but if Lands has the interaction required (see above) we will prevail.

[gigapatrick]

@LordOMJ

Excellent report and congrats on the finish.

[Rivfader]

Nice performance LordOMJ. Guess you'll keep on playing Lands from now on :)

[Nikolai004]

Rishadan Port, Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance (plus the obvious Krosan Grips) are, in that order, the best things to have in the matchup.

The Enchantress matchup, like Infect, is all about retarding their setup and controlling the game. They can kill you on turn 2 or 3 sometimes but if Lands has the interaction required (see above) we will prevail.

I would think that sphere's end up hurting us more than enchantress with all their ramp abilities.

[hyp3r1on]

I would think that sphere's end up hurting us more than enchantress with all their ramp abilities.

Enchantress is a critical mass combo deck - and you really need to be slowing them down with Spheres to give you time to set up a kill. Plus there's plenty of dead cards in the main deck anyways. Even if you go: +4 Spheres, +4 Krosan Grips, easy cuts are: -4 Punishing Fire, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm. Chalices are pretty good too as they shut off a bunch of Enchantments including Mirri's Guile, Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth and Elephant Grass (which Marit Lage can't attack through).

[LordOMJ]

Enchantress is a critical mass combo deck - and you really need to be slowing them down with Spheres to give you time to set up a kill. Plus there's plenty of dead cards in the main deck anyways. Even if you go: +4 Spheres, +4 Krosan Grips, easy cuts are: -4 Punishing Fire, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm. Chalices are pretty good too as they shut off a bunch of Enchantments including Mirri's Guile, Utopia Sprawl, Wild Growth and Elephant Grass (which Marit Lage can't attack through).

hyp3r1on's post highlights the singular most important thing you need to know about playing against enchantress. Since they're a critical mass deck, your disruption needs to come online early to have enough of an impact. Game 1, this means Port. If you can't get multiple port going (or a fast Marit Lage and fade Elephant Grass) then you'll lose to anything but a bad draw from their deck. Tabernacle is obviously helpful, as it taxes their Argothian Enchantresses, but realistically they're use Wild Growth effects to ensure they only need one land to pay for these costs. Game 2, you probably want to mulligan aggressively for Sphere or Chalice. Sphere's value drops dramatically the more developed they are when you play it. I'd actually go a step farther than barcode and say that CotV is the single best card in the matchup because it turns off all their Wild Growth effects. It's hard to reach critical mass when all of your basics only tap for one mana and Sanctum only gains value of CMC 2 and higher enchantments. CotV also locks out Grass, which as as been pointed out several times is a huge deal. Thats typically more impact than a single copy of Port would have. Krosan Grip obviously comes in, but it's weaker than you would expect. A good pilot won't play Elephant Grass or Solitary Confinement without a Sterling Grove to protect it. You'll either need to find a second copy of Grip or be fast enough to force them to play their lock piece without protection. They'll see so many more cards than us over the course of the game, so your best shot at winning comes from mulliganing to a hand that is proactive rather than reactive.

That whole discussion ignores the fact that the deck is typically packing 2-4 copies of Rest in Peace. That's intentional, because in this match-up the graveyard hate stopping one dimension of our gameplan is far less important than our need to stop theirs. Curtis, my teammate who plays enchantress, actually boarded out several of his Rest in Peace against me at the EE4 Satelite because he was more concerned about stopping the things we have to do to beat him than he as about disrupting our graveyard. In his case, that meant 2 Needle for Loam / Stage, 2 Aura of Silence to stop our fast mana, Spheres, and Chalices, and 4 Sterling Groves to protect against Krosan Grip.

hyp3r1on is also spot on with the cuts. I tend to shave my maindeck Bog and either Riftstone Portal or a Wasteland for the 2 CotV.

[Nikolai004]

hyp3r1on's post highlights the singular most important thing you need to know about playing against enchantress. Since they're a critical mass deck, your disruption needs to come online early to have enough of an impact. Game 1, this means Port. If you can't get multiple port going (or a fast Marit Lage and fade Elephant Grass) then you'll lose to anything but a bad draw from their deck. Tabernacle is obviously helpful, as it taxes their Argothian Enchantresses, but realistically they're use Wild Growth effects to ensure they only need one land to pay for these costs. Game 2, you probably want to mulligan aggressively for Sphere or Chalice. Sphere's value drops dramatically the more developed they are when you play it. I'd actually go a step farther than barcode and say that CotV is the single best card in the matchup because it turns off all their Wild Growth effects. It's hard to reach critical mass when all of your basics only tap for one mana and Sanctum only gains value of CMC 2 and higher enchantments. CotV also locks out Grass, which as as been pointed out several times is a huge deal. Thats typically more impact than a single copy of Port would have. Krosan Grip obviously comes in, but it's weaker than you would expect. A good pilot won't play Elephant Grass or Solitary Confinement without a Sterling Grove to protect it. You'll either need to find a second copy of Grip or be fast enough to force them to play their lock piece without protection. They'll see so many more cards than us over the course of the game, so your best shot at winning comes from mulliganing to a hand that is proactive rather than reactive.

That whole discussion ignores the fact that the deck is typically packing 2-4 copies of Rest in Peace. That's intentional, because in this match-up the graveyard hate stopping one dimension of our gameplan is far less important than our need to stop theirs. Curtis, my teammate who plays enchantress, actually boarded out several of his Rest in Peace against me at the EE4 Satelite because he was more concerned about stopping the things we have to do to beat him than he as about disrupting our graveyard. In his case, that meant 2 Needle for Loam / Stage, 2 Aura of Silence to stop our fast mana, Spheres, and Chalices, and 4 Sterling Groves to protect against Krosan Grip.

hyp3r1on is also spot on with the cuts. I tend to shave my maindeck Bog and either Riftstone Portal or a Wasteland for the 2 CotV.

I can't find any counter argument to the thought process and the only 2 times I've faced Enchantress I got crushed. Hopefully with this in mind I'll stand a better chance. Thanks.

[barcode]

hyp3r1on's post highlights the singular most important thing you need to know about playing against enchantress. Since they're a critical mass deck, your disruption needs to come online early to have enough of an impact. Game 1, this means Port. If you can't get multiple port going (or a fast Marit Lage and fade Elephant Grass) then you'll lose to anything but a bad draw from their deck. Tabernacle is obviously helpful, as it taxes their Argothian Enchantresses, but realistically they're use Wild Growth effects to ensure they only need one land to pay for these costs. Game 2, you probably want to mulligan aggressively for Sphere or Chalice. Sphere's value drops dramatically the more developed they are when you play it. I'd actually go a step farther than barcode and say that CotV is the single best card in the matchup because it turns off all their Wild Growth effects. It's hard to reach critical mass when all of your basics only tap for one mana and Sanctum only gains value of CMC 2 and higher enchantments. CotV also locks out Grass, which as as been pointed out several times is a huge deal. Thats typically more impact than a single copy of Port would have. Krosan Grip obviously comes in, but it's weaker than you would expect. A good pilot won't play Elephant Grass or Solitary Confinement without a Sterling Grove to protect it. You'll either need to find a second copy of Grip or be fast enough to force them to play their lock piece without protection. They'll see so many more cards than us over the course of the game, so your best shot at winning comes from mulliganing to a hand that is proactive rather than reactive.

That whole discussion ignores the fact that the deck is typically packing 2-4 copies of Rest in Peace. That's intentional, because in this match-up the graveyard hate stopping one dimension of our gameplan is far less important than our need to stop theirs. Curtis, my teammate who plays enchantress, actually boarded out several of his Rest in Peace against me at the EE4 Satelite because he was more concerned about stopping the things we have to do to beat him than he as about disrupting our graveyard. In his case, that meant 2 Needle for Loam / Stage, 2 Aura of Silence to stop our fast mana, Spheres, and Chalices, and 4 Sterling Groves to protect against Krosan Grip.

hyp3r1on is also spot on with the cuts. I tend to shave my maindeck Bog and either Riftstone Portal or a Wasteland for the 2 CotV.

I'm actually fine with them having wild growth effects early as long as I also have Rishadan Port early, too. That's why I place the value higher on Ports. They don't really play a lot of basics, depending on the build, so we can leverage our Ports and Wastelands to great effect.

I agree with hip1eryion (or w/e :p) that Sphere isn't as good as Port and Chalice or even Grip but it's just another piece of the puzzle that we need to interact early.

[Varal]

I'm actually fine with them having wild growth effects early as long as I also have Rishadan Port early, too. That's why I place the value higher on Ports. They don't really play a lot of basics, depending on the build, so we can leverage our Ports and Wastelands to great effect.

I agree with hip1eryion (or w/e :p) that Sphere isn't as good as Port and Chalice or even Grip but it's just another piece of the puzzle that we need to interact early.

In my experience, they play a ton of basic, this is what makes the Prison role hard. It would be a bad idea to play many non-basic when you plan to cast Aura on your Lands.

[barcode]

In my experience, they play a ton of basic, this is what makes the Prison role hard. It would be a bad idea to play many non-basic when you plan to cast Aura on your Lands.

The blue version is reliant on Tropical Islands or the Utopia Sprawl for blue mana to combo with Cloud of Faeries. This gives us easy targets to destroy for Wasteland or tap with Port.

Put another way: I'm not going to mulligan a hand that has a port or two but no Chalice of the Void.

[Varal]

The blue version is reliant on Tropical Islands or the Utopia Sprawl for blue mana to combo with Cloud of Faeries. This gives us easy targets to destroy for Wasteland or tap with Port.

Put another way: I'm not going to mulligan a hand that has a port or two but no Chalice of the Void.

Blue Enchantress is a fringe version of a fringe deck. Most players will never encounter it. Lands probably crush them if they have ton of non-basic lands.

[barcode]

Blue Enchantress is a fringe version of a fringe deck. Most players will never encounter it. Lands probably crush them if they have ton of non-basic lands.

I've actually played the blue version much more often than the white version.

[Chatto]

I haven't played neither, so there. I think fringe or fringier(?) says it all. It is a hell of MU when confronted with. Thank you all for your insight.

[LordOMJ]

I haven't played neither, so there. I think fringe or fringier(?) says it all. It is a hell of MU when confronted with. Thank you all for your insight.

Haha. I think that's a good way to put it. Best wishes to those of you - like me - that have to contend with multiple enchantress pilots in your local meta(s). If you don't, well, I'll try not to be too jealous.

[Chrandersen]

Lands is great and well positioned this weekend. Good luck and see you this weekend to those of you battling in Philly.

We're ready for the space freaks.

4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire

3 Maze of Ith
3 Green Fetchlands
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Canopy Vista

2 Boil
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
:smile:

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Canopy vista is some spicy technology ;)

EDIT: It looks like you are missing a land maindeck too.

[barcode]

Lands is great and well positioned this weekend. Good luck and see you this weekend to those of you battling in Philly.


1 Canopy Vista



That card seems loose. Why not a Savannah if you're intent on GW? Or do you mean another card?

Good luck to everyone playing this weekend! Let's get back in DTB!!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

That card seems loose. Why not a Savannah if you're intent on GW? Or do you mean another card?

Good luck to everyone playing this weekend! Let's get back in DTB!!He meant horizon canopy.

[UnsungHero]

Lands is great and well positioned this weekend. Good luck and see you this weekend to those of you battling in Philly.

We're ready for the space freaks.

4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire

3 Maze of Ith
3 Green Fetchlands
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Canopy Vista

2 Boil
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
:smile:

Crazy, Im running the exact same 15 as my sideboard as well. Also no more Riftsonte Portal?

[Crimhead]

Crazy, Im running the exact same 15 as my sideboard as well.I think the Shops decks are going to attract a lot of Blood Moons. I think it might be prudent to make space for a fourth Grip and maybe even Seismic Assault / Molten Vortex. I'd ditch the boils and let the Eldrazis take out the blue decks.

Other pilots prepare for the Eldrazis. We prepare for splash damage.

[Chatto]

I think the Shops decks are going to attract a lot of Blood Moons. Other pilots prepare for the Eldrazis. We prepare for splash damage.

Oh yeah, agreed: we're in for a tough ride. I'm going to use your post, Crimhead, it's one of the best I've heard in a while.

[Crimhead]

Oh yeah, agreed: we're in for a tough ride. I'm going to use your post, Crimhead, it's one of the best I've heard in a while.
The upside is that apparently BUG Control is solid vs Shops. A lot of people would rather meta-gaming with an established deck like BUG rather than a fringe deck like Painter. BUG is obviously a much better MU for us, and they don't have access to red. It's too bad the first real test for Eldrazis is in Philly. Apparently Lands is big there, so Painter probably is a better option than in other regions. If it works in Philly first, it might catch on.

Of course Miracles MUs should get worse with SB From The Ashes & Humility on top of the Moons. Hopefully the deck will still struggle against Shops and be held back somewhat.

[Dice_Box]

The Winter Orbs it plays are hell on Miracles, sadly, not much fun on us either. I really think that right now, I would be looking at maybe a second Basic and Titan (Hi Barcode) as well as looking into playing maybe Meekstone or second Tabernacle again.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Here are some more videos:

#110 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmvAq9ZIw4&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=110)

#111 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_TKz6QbqO0&index=111&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#112 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5DpgzsQMwY&index=112&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

In the third video, I could have been a much better sportsman.

[Chatto]

So, David Long is playing a new kind of build? Bayou, Abrupt Decay's, Thoughtseize, Molten Vortex, and Bobs?

[Arksz]

So, David Long is playing a new kind of build? Bayou, Abrupt Decay's, Thoughtseize, Molten Vortex, and Bobs?

There have been some lists with black that use abrupt decay and bobs. Someone on here from Europe has a super pimped out version. He seems to be running a lot of discard in the sideboard though.

[CptHaddock]

So, David Long is playing a new kind of build? Bayou, Abrupt Decay's, Thoughtseize, Molten Vortex, and Bobs?

I was talking to at an event earlier this month about his build. From what he told me he completely got rid of punishing fire and is instead playing Molten Vortex and decays main and he was playing the bobs in the board. Seems like his list is probably a lot better against something like miracles than your traditional r/g combo lands lists.

[Rivfader]

So, David Long is playing a new kind of build? Bayou, Abrupt Decay's, Thoughtseize, Molten Vortex, and Bobs?

I love how he innovates the deck. The four trini's in the days of Miracles/Omnitell before DTT's banning was his initial idea too.

[Crimhead]

I love how he innovates the deck. The four trini's in the days of Miracles/Omnitell before DTT's banning was his initial idea too.Saw him beat Miracles (5-0, I think). How'd he finish yesterday?

[Chatto]

Saw him beat Miracles (5-0, I think). How'd he finish yesterday?

7th after day one (so in pretty good shape, but still everything can happen), if I read the standings correct. Really like to see a list

[gigapatrick]

Really like to see a list

I second this.

Also:

#113 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0pX2dnJYMU&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=113)

[Domri Rade]

7th after day one (so in pretty good shape, but still everything can happen), if I read the standings correct. Really like to see a list

I'll try to ask him if he doesn't top 8.

[Crimhead]

I'll try to ask him if he doesn't top 8.
Thanks! Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.

[gigapatrick]

#114 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKYEbdR7l9I&index=114&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#115 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43s-6jaDx08&index=115&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[chalupa43087]

Thanks! Here's hoping it doesn't come to that.
Just beat Tom Ross to lock up a top 8 spot congrats David now we can see the list on the top 8 :)

[chalupa43087]

#114 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKYEbdR7l9I&index=114&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

#115 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43s-6jaDx08&index=115&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

Really have been loving the videos gigapatrick!

[gigapatrick]

Really have been loving the videos gigapatrick!

Thanks. I do my best (though that often includes silly things like thinking that Mox Diamond is a good draw when I have Chalice on zero on the battlefield.)

[KIP_NZ]

According to twitch chat:

Rogue1987: Noah Walker forces a game 3 against David Long.

[Crimhead]

It's over for Lands. :frown:

Quite a shame, because the most likely final would have been Lands vs Shops, and that would have rocked!

Good show David Long - we all look forward to the list.

I'm thinking the switch away from PFs to MVs is synergistic with the SD Bobs. Bob + Vortex is pretty deadly even without graveyard access.

[UnsungHero]

5 Lands decks in the top 32 from SCG Philly.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=02/27/2016&end_date=02/28/2016&start=1&finish=32&event_ID=20&limit=50

There are a few builds with the black splash, as well as versions without Punishing Fire and have Molten Vortex instead. Interested to hear about how Molten Vortex and the black splash fared.

[Domri Rade]

Came in 17th :( Came close to a top 8. Seems I am the only one who showed up with a more traditional R/G lands build. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99284

[Crimhead]

27th place is Turbo-Depths, so it looks like there are actually six lists.

The move away from Pubishing Grove is intriguing to be sure!


Came in 17th :( Came close to a top 8. Seems I am the only one who showed up with a more traditional R/G lands build. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99284Congrats!

[Domri Rade]

27th place is Turbo-Depths.

The move away from Pubishing Grove is intriguing to be sure!

Yeah, the only match that grove was really good for me was DnT. Every other match I won with Merit Liege or the one of Molten Vortex in the side.

[chalupa43087]

Came in 17th :( Came close to a top 8. Seems I am the only one who showed up with a more traditional R/G lands build. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99284

Really great showing by everyone. David mentioned in his Top 8 profile that eldrazi were his only losses. The matchup seems very tough if they get the mimic spew but watching the finals matchup I am slightly excited to see that the deck is so reliant on its lands that even a single wasteland can crumble it. What were your thoughts on the eldrazi matchup. Since lands was so prevelant and had the highest conversion rate it seems are you mentally preparing for the winter orbs and more painter decks to show up?

[chalupa43087]

I'm thinking about what kinds of SB hate that might show up that hurts both us and eldrazi but also what hate that shows up and misses us. Joe Lossett has been playing 2 moats and was successful, blood moon is a lot more a problem than moat which does nothing. The commentators were also talking about Reid duke and his humility blood moon package he played. I'm wondering if that is how miracles will start to move to fight lands and eldrazi since both cards can be potential haymakers

[Domri Rade]

Really great showing by everyone. David mentioned in his Top 8 profile that eldrazi were his only losses. The matchup seems very tough if they get the mimic spew but watching the finals matchup I am slightly excited to see that the deck is so reliant on its lands that even a single wasteland can crumble it. What were your thoughts on the eldrazi matchup. Since lands was so prevelant and had the highest conversion rate it seems are you mentally preparing for the winter orbs and more painter decks to show up?

I only played against it twice, The first time was against Gerry T, but I beat him with two fast kills turn 4 the first game and turn 3 the second. Nothing much he could have done. I lost to my other eldrazzi opponent in 3 games. It seems like a good match up to me, but I was ultimately defeated due to my opponent opening up with leyline of the void into chalice on 1 killed me. If you have some disruption for their mana and can find the combo in a timely fashion it tends to be pretty easy to beat.

[Chatto]

No P-fire, and a lot of black cards, this list by David Long looks like something already discussed by Jarvis Hue, iirc. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99299)

That said congrats with this result, mr. Long.

EDIT: congrats to all Lands-pilots. Mr. Doumanis, congrats on an excellent result! Can we expect a report?

[Dice_Box]

I think I will have to do a larger update to the primer then just adding this deck to the list. Will do that on Tuesday.

[Rivfader]

It seems like there's a Lands-thinktank over there in Philly :) It was a joy to watch, I went WTF every time Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize hit the table. Congrats to all those people, for doing well and also for boldly playing what nobody had played before. Also a question if someone of these people also posts here, I do wonder about the synergy between Loam and Vortex/AD, as they both don't come back from the graveyard in contrast to Punishing Fire, and because Vortex is vulnerable to counterspells and Abrupt Decay.

Isn't that an issue when you're dredging away, and you really need one of those cards? That seems the biggest issue for these maindecked AD's and Vortexes.

[Sibelius]

I top 8'd the Madrid BOM at the weekend, 2nd after the swiss.

Pretty standard list, will write a few thoughts later if I can think of anything useful to say.

On David Long's list. First impressions it looks a lot of fun, I like the added red sources for Vortex etc. Bob out of the board is good until people start predicting it and keeping bolt and plow in. However with Eldrazi running rampant I suspect people will be packing fewer Bolts. I'm interested in Abrupt Decay. It must make the miracles MU slightly better but I'm not sure if the downside that it is weaker to Bloodmoon is worth it. Certainly in an EU meta where Moon decks are common and that I predict an increase in Painter Decks to try to combat Eldrazi (whether this is good or not I don't know) and Lands. Anyway, time will tell.

Sib

[Domri Rade]

No P-fire, and a lot of black cards, this list by David Long looks like something already discussed by Jarvis Hue, iirc. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99299)

That said congrats with this result, mr. Long.

EDIT: congrats to all Lands-pilots. Mr. Doumanis, congrats on an excellent result! Can we expect a report?

Yeah, probably. Lots of strange things happened this tournament.

[barcode]

I haven't seen any of the matches from the weekend (dual Modern GPT practice for the Modern GP this week) but I'm tickled pink to see people having success with jund colour lands. I'm curious how the (Jund Depths) deck Kennen Haas played stacks up against the jund colour lands decks from this weekend.

[anakyn]

Also a question if someone of these people also posts here, I do wonder about the synergy between Loam and Vortex/AD, as they both don't come back from the graveyard in contrast to Punishing Fire, and because Vortex is vulnerable to counterspells and Abrupt Decay.

Isn't that an issue when you're dredging away, and you really need one of those cards? That seems the biggest issue for these maindecked AD's and Vortexes.

The anti-synergy with Loam is the main reason why I don't like the "black build" with Vortexes and Decays maindeck: it's interesting for sure and opens up our sideboard to discard (Bob is cool too), but while you're gaining precious tools vs combo matchup, you're also losing consistency vs the rest of the field.
Dredging Punishing Fire brings smile on our faces, dredging Decay / Vortex brings tears.

Anyways Vortex seems really strong and maybe it's worthy 2 slot in the sideboard.

[Rivfader]

I'm interested in Abrupt Decay. It must make the miracles MU slightly better but I'm not sure if the downside that it is weaker to Bloodmoon is worth it. Certainly in an EU meta where Moon decks are common and that I predict an increase in Painter Decks to try to combat Eldrazi (whether this is good or not I don't know) and Lands. Anyway, time will tell.

Sib


On the other hand there's discard to snatch the moons before they enter play.


I'm curious how the (Jund Depths) deck Kennen Haas played stacks up against the jund colour lands decks from this weekend.
I see them quite different, as JundDepths is for me a Punishing Pox deck featuring Liliana and Smallpox, and needing a manabase supporting double black.

[Cambriel]

Interesting to see a black splash doing well. I was playing a more traditional list locally with no main deck black cards, but using Bob and Decay in the sideboard. Bob made a great replacement for P Fire in matches where there were no good targets, or vs. graveyard hate. It's still 2 damage per turn, and our curve is so low that it's basically a Howling Mine.

[lavafrogg]

The abrupt decays are house in the miracles matchups where you draw cards naturally almost more than you dredge in some games. Counterbalance needs to be kept off of the table so we can resolve any/most of our spells and the decays main give us an opportunity to kill the balance on the spot.

[Crimhead]

I do wonder about the synergy between Loam and Vortex/AD, as they both don't come back from the graveyard in contrast to Punishing Fire, and because Vortex is vulnerable to counterspells and Abrupt Decay.

Isn't that an issue when you're dredging away, and you really need one of those cards? That seems the biggest issue for these maindecked AD's and Vortexes.
My guess is that the MD Decays are there precisely because the Vorticies need to be drawn and are hence unreliable. Adding Decays gives you a pretty good chance to at least hit some removal while you stabalise - then you can try to draw into Vortex or Gamble.

[hyp3r1on]

Personally, I've always been in love with the Black splash in Lands precisely for Dark Confidant and Abrupt Decay, which is also why I've gravitated more towards the RUG build. It's nice to see people have success with these cards at the SCG event.

Also, I believe the move to maindeck Decays and Molten Vortex over Punishing Fire was a strict metagame call for that tournament. I think the players on this build of Lands were anticipating a lot of Eldrazi and a lot of Miracles, where Punishing Fire isn't all that spectacular in either matchup. Still, it's really nice to see people develop and innovate beyond traditional Lands molds and do well. Too many Legacy players are afraid of tinkering with established archetypes and leaving their comfort zone.

Lastly, big props to David Long. I met and talked with him at a GP Sea-Tac side event and he couldn't be more pleasant and friendly.

[Negator77']

Personally, I've always been in love with the Black splash in Lands precisely for Dark Confidant and Abrupt Decay, which is also why I've gravitated more towards the RUG build. It's nice to see people have success with these cards at the SCG event.

Lastly, big props to David Long. I met and talked with him at a GP Sea-Tac side event and he couldn't be more pleasant and friendly.

I played against the deck in Rounds 10 (Long) and 11 (King). The deck felt very strong from my side of the table in both matches. The Dark Confidants in particular gave me fits against Long. I got exactly 1 point from those two matches and felt fortunate to get that.

I second the props to David Long. We were shielded from the clock (it was not visible from the feature match area we were in for some reason), had a pretty drawn out three game set, and ended up not finishing game 3 for the draw. Despite the circumstances, he was incredibly friendly throughout.

[gigapatrick]

#116 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBn4CdsqlAQ&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=116)

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. Just put together Long and company's black-splash list together on Modo. Not sure how I feel about it (Molten Vortex gets Decayed, and that sucks), but if people want to see a set of videos of the deck, I'm happy to make them. Let me know.

[filln]

Hello all. Just put together Long and company's black-splash list together on Modo. Not sure how I feel about it (Molten Vortex gets Decayed, and that sucks), but if people want to see a set of videos of the deck, I'm happy to make them. Let me know.

Hey Patrick - created an account just to say I really enjoy your videos! They have been really helpful to a new Lands player like me. Would love to see a black splash game or two. Thanks for sharing and all your hard work!

[Morte]

Hello all. Just put together Long and company's black-splash list together on Modo. Not sure how I feel about it (Molten Vortex gets Decayed, and that sucks), but if people want to see a set of videos of the deck, I'm happy to make them. Let me know.

Definitely interested! Thank you Patrick. For sure the black-splash improves the Miracles matchup and Bob is a strong alternative to our graveyard dependant engines. That said, it is interesting to understand how the change impacts the matchups where we were already strong.

[UnsungHero]

I think I may test a black splash without molten vortex. I like vortex alot, but there is alot of Grixis & BUG delver in my meta, so I like being able to recur P Fire through loams and being able to gamble for it. One card I've wanted to test for awhile in the board is Slaughter Games, I think it would be solid against alot of combo decks, as well miracles. I also think Bob is a great choice for miracles as well as other matches where P Fires aren't good. For those running the Black splash, what is the split between Decay and Grip? 3 Decay & 2 grip seems like it would be right, anyone care to share?

[gigapatrick]

Hey Patrick - created an account just to say I really enjoy your videos! They have been really helpful to a new Lands player like me. Would love to see a black splash game or two. Thanks for sharing and all your hard work!

All right. Will do. Glad you enjoy the videos. Every now and then, a pro will make a stupid mistake on a video and I'll feel slightly better about myself, but only slightly. Hope you like them despite my misplays.

[Rivfader]

I think I may test a black splash without molten vortex. I like vortex alot, but there is alot of Grixis & BUG delver in my meta, so I like being able to recur P Fire through loams and being able to gamble for it. One card I've wanted to test for awhile in the board is Slaughter Games, I think it would be solid against alot of combo decks, as well miracles. I also think Bob is a great choice for miracles as well as other matches where P Fires aren't good. For those running the Black splash, what is the split between Decay and Grip? 3 Decay & 2 grip seems like it would be right, anyone care to share?

The problem of a black splash is that you need sufficient black mana. Splashing a bayou for Abrupt Decay might be just enough, but not if reliably want to cast Thoughtseize turn 1. I've been playing Thoughtseize in the side for some time now, along with 4 additional black sources (bayou, 2 fetch and Urborg). David Long played an additional 3 black sources. You have to cut other cards, and while I took out 2 tickets (which you probably can't afford if you run the Decays in the main), chasm in the side and a 61st card, Long cut 3 Groves (and the fourth for another Taiga).

Black splash and Punishing Fire is probably too tight to play if you wanna maindeck the Decays, because of the deckspace taken by the Groves. Just my two cents though.

[jarvisyu]

No P-fire, and a lot of black cards, this list by David Long looks like something already discussed by Jarvis Hue, iirc. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99299)

That said congrats with this result, mr. Long.

EDIT: congrats to all Lands-pilots. Mr. Doumanis, congrats on an excellent result! Can we expect a report?

Jarvis Who?

#joking

In all seriousness, I mentioned the possibility of 4x vortex with lots of taigas. the black splash was new to me (i was busy playing GP Houston).

I'm pretty sure this list is super sick.

[Croprot]

Jarvis Who?

#joking

In all seriousness, I mentioned the possibility of 4x vortex with lots of taigas. the black splash was new to me (i was busy playing GP Houston).

I'm pretty sure this list is super sick.

I've also been tinkering with a 4x vortex list but I don't know if it makes sense to play that instead of seismic assault if we are playing more red sources in our deck?

[fluuu]

I've also been tinkering with a 4x vortex list but I don't know if it makes sense to play that instead of seismic assault if we are playing more red sources in our deck?

Do u think dark depths are needed (at least 3 main 1 sb?

[barcode]

Back about 20 or 30 pages ago I tried out a black splash (in various degrees of sanity) to try and combat pre-DTT ban Omnitell. The requirement for Punishing Fire made the mana worse, but Thoughtseize was great.

[chalupa43087]

The thing I like about molten vortex over punishing fire is I have basically never won a game where I had to cast punishing fire 20+ times to win, but in the past dozen plus games I have tested the 3-4 vortex version I have actually won with Vortex as my audible to plan B doing 20 damage with it. The downside is that you cant get the consistency to get a deathrite shaman with Pfire can but if we look at lands as a deck that with Pfire was 99% to win with dark depths then moving to vortex doesn't change our win percentage but in facts adds to that, because of the decrease need for 8 cards that in the past didn't add to our main win condition we can do things like play more cycle lands or w/e. I'm really excited to see what further design space comes with vortex and can report that as an alternate win condition it is a legitimate threat against miracles. While being much more narrow, I wonder how the card Conflagrate would work in lands?

[UnsungHero]

I tried David Long's list from SCG Philly at a local event tonight and here is how I did.

1-2 Sneak Show
0-2 Esper Deathblade
2-0 Esper Deathblade
2-0 BUG Delver

The list was interesting,There was some instances where I really wish there was a punishing fire in the yard so I could shoot some small stuff like deathrite, sfm & delver. Most of the time I wish I had punishing in hand rather then vortex. I think I loamed a Vortex every game. One thing I did like about the list is since it runs twice as many fetches (6 total) I never got wasted off of a color, which was nice.

I think the lists are cool, I may test it some more, but I really like the straight R/G lists more. Its great to see players trying different things though. I'd love to hear more peoples thoughts on the black splash builds, as well as how people are still doing with the traditional R/G builds.

[gigapatrick]

I tried David Long's list from SCG Philly at a local event tonight and here is how I did.
I'd love to hear more peoples thoughts on the black splash builds, as well as how people are still doing with the traditional R/G builds.

Right now, I'm testing Long's list (or an approximation of it) online. I still plan to join the League again and make a set of videos with it, but I have mixed feelings about it. I definitely don't think that Vortex is superior to Punishing Fire. There's no doubt that once it's on board it's less mana intensive, but it feels much harder to set up successfully. If you have to shoot down multiple creatures, you've got to discard lands instead of playing them, which means you're not developing your board. Furthermore, I feel like by the time I'm ready to start using Vortex to good effect (that is, I have Loam going and extra lands to pitch to Vortex), I'm ready to win with a witch anyway. I like the discard in the sideboard since it is generally more versatile than Sphere-effects (which aren't really good against non-Storm combo decks), but I'm stilling losing my ass off to Sneak and Show anyway, discard or not. As for Confidant: I haven't seen him in action yet, but green has a less vulnerable corollary in Sylvan Library (which everyone knows I think is amazing). Granted, all this is said with only a couple of days testing, so I haven't learned the nooks and crevasses of this new deck. I'd imagine it improves the Miracles matchup by a few percentage points and the non-Storm combo matchups by much less, while losing the consistency of Grove-Fire and thus shaving a small percentage off our Delver.dec and Deathrite.dec matchups.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I played a little with the black list and it just made me want to play with some vortices in a more normal RG build. I ended up putting something together running 34 lands with 3 vortex and 3 punishing fire with full sets of grove and taiga for plenty of red sources and it's been pretty fun in the first few test matches I played. David's list certainly got the gears turning in everyone's head which is awesome.

[heckler]

I have only won 2 games with punishing fire alone, granted. But punishing fire has set up the board so that I could effectively imprison the enemy until I got the combo online so many times. It's something you can gamble for without too much worry if you have a grove in play. I like the idea of the black for abrupt decay, but in playing test hands i find that I dredge a bit too much to reliably draw into them.

I like the confidants in the board though. by game 2, most players sideboard out their creature hate and he is almost a sylvan library at that point and will rarely cost you more than a life.

A friend/coworker of mine just put together sneak and show. The match feels horrendously against us. Game 1 is solidly unwinnable unless he kept a bad hand and we can combo early, or if show and tell allowed us to put in the last combo piece and we can attack back to clear his creature. i lost most games post board as well. the only games I won(2 out of 9) were when I put sphere effects into play and proceeded to imprison him with ports and wastelands. Another time I kept him off being able to get me until he snuck an emrakul but I made the token and had more than enough to sacrifice and block. If the discard package doesn't significantly add to our percentage here then I have to say that we just have to take the match as pretty much a loss.

I've debated upping my vortex count in the SB from 1 to 3. whenever i turn 1 vortex against miracles and it sticks, I win that game without question. Ive also been running the boils instead of choke lately (due to being able to cast it with boseiju) and it has wrecked them as well when successful. They fetch up mostly basics and if they don't have the counter in their hand, it's unlikely to be countered with their combo, assuming you don't have boseiju in play.

[Nikolai004]

#116 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBn4CdsqlAQ&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=116)

That game one, I have to question why you loamed anything back at all. You had everything you needed to make a Marit Lage and pass the turn. Which would've meant a single PoP wouldn't have killed you and you still had maze and a token to block for any creatures.

[gigapatrick]

That game one, I have to question why you loamed anything back at all. You had everything you needed to make a Marit Lage and pass the turn. Which would've meant a single PoP wouldn't have killed you and you still had maze and a token to block for any creatures.

Yeah, upon rewatching, I facepalmed. Why in the heck didn't I just make the freaking token? I could have won that game . . .

[UnsungHero]

A friend/coworker of mine just put together sneak and show. The match feels horrendously against us. Game 1 is solidly unwinnable unless he kept a bad hand and we can combo early, or if show and tell allowed us to put in the last combo piece and we can attack back to clear his creature. i lost most games post board as well. the only games I won(2 out of 9) were when I put sphere effects into play and proceeded to imprison him with ports and wastelands. Another time I kept him off being able to get me until he snuck an emrakul but I made the token and had more than enough to sacrifice and block. If the discard package doesn't significantly add to our percentage here then I have to say that we just have to take the match as pretty much a loss.

Its a tough matchup for sure, however its far from unwinnable. Karakas shines here, and keeping them off mana via port & waste is very important. Sometimes they get through all of that with things like petals and a sol land too, but thats sometimes how it goes, and sometimes they pull through the breech or blood moon you.

[Chatto]

Jarvis Who?

#joking

In all seriousness, I mentioned the possibility of 4x vortex with lots of taigas. the black splash was new to me (i was busy playing GP Houston).

I'm pretty sure this list is super sick.

My bad, Jarvis :smile:

I'm keeping it old-school for now. One thing I am considering is Ghost Quarter again, in case of Eldrazi becoming huge.

[Darkgobs]

My bad, Jarvis :smile:

I'm keeping it old-school for now. One thing I am considering is Ghost Quarter again, in case of Eldrazi becomes huge.

Speaking of which: what is our best plan against them? I mean in case we can't make a witch in the early turns and it has to come to mid-late game? I honestly hadn't the chance to meet one on cockatrice right now (I don't have much time to play atm anyway), so I have a bad idea of how the match-up goes. Would someone please enlighten me? :smile:
As long as they don't get an early Chalice to shut our Gamble / Crop down or a totally broken start, I feel like we should be in a pretty good spot, don't we?

PS: postboard, it seems a bit harder with some list playing Leyline, Winter Orb or this horrible Endbringer (really strong against us!).

[CptHaddock]

Speaking of which: what is our best plan against them? I mean in case we can't make a witch in the early turns and it has to come to mid-late game? I honestly hadn't the chance to meet one on cockatrice right now (I don't have much time to play atm anyway), so I have a bad idea of how the match-up goes. Would someone please enlighten me? :smile:
As long as they don't get an early Chalice to shut our Gamble / Crop down or a totally broken start, I feel like we should be in a pretty good spot, don't we?

PS: postboard, it seems a bit harder with some list playing Leyline, Winter Orb or this horrible Endbringer (really strong against us!).

I can't speak for any of the builds that are splashing white but for the uncolored builds this is pretty much it. I think the games are highly favorable towards us besides wasteland, chalice and sometimes TKS they really have little to no ways of interacting with us.

They actually have no answer to a marit lage so as long as you get one out in a timely manner you'll more than likely win the game. If you get a wasteland/ghost quarter lock game 1 is super easy. Postboard games get a little harder because of the amount of hate that they bring in. I've seen faerie macabres, surgicals, pithing needles and surgical extractions come out of the boards my opponents have been playing. It looks like from the lists this weekend people may also be playing leylines and I assume some people are playing crypts as well.

[blubberpompnao]

I can't speak for any of the builds that are splashing white but for the uncolored builds this is pretty much it. I think the games are highly favorable towards us besides wasteland, chalice and sometimes TKS they really have little to no ways of interacting with us.

They actually have no answer to a marit lage so as long as you get one out in a timely manner you'll more than likely win the game. If you get a wasteland/ghost quarter lock game 1 is super easy. Postboard games get a little harder because of the amount of hate that they bring in. I've seen faerie macabres, surgicals, pithing needles and surgical extractions come out of the boards my opponents have been playing. It looks like from the lists this weekend people may also be playing leylines and I assume some people are playing crypts as well.

I've also seen people play Tsabo's Web which is a fine card against us but pretty easy to play around if you expect it or know its coming.

[jjrotzo]

In my area, people have begun to combat Eldrazis with Price of Progress. I've seen it in Burn (of course), Delver and even Miracles (combined with Snapcaster :eek:).

This card is a nightmare. Is there anything I can do to fight it? (except for drawing Magic-Wonder-Christmas hands with turn 2 combo or chasm lock)

[gigapatrick]

As promised, the first in a set of black-splash videos:

#117 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyVCrDWx7CA&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=117)

[Croprot]

In my area, people have begun to combat Eldrazis with Price of Progress. I've seen it in Burn (of course), Delver and even Miracles (combined with Snapcaster :eek:).

This card is a nightmare. Is there anything I can do to fight it? (except for drawing Magic-Wonder-Christmas hands with turn 2 combo or chasm lock)

Crop rotation into glacial chasm.

[heckler]

Its a tough matchup for sure, however its far from unwinnable. Karakas shines here, and keeping them off mana via port & waste is very important. Sometimes they get through all of that with things like petals and a sol land too, but thats sometimes how it goes, and sometimes they pull through the breech or blood moon you.

The hard part is that even if you have the tools to keep them off of it early, you can't really stop them later on if they can activate sneak attack twice if they have 2 red sources; so karakas bounces emrakul and you just take his annihilator to the face anyway.

I actually beat sneak and show in a small event last night 2-1. game 1 I popped out marit lage end of turn 2. Game 2 I put him in prison with sphere effects and ports for a while after wasting a volcanic; eventually he echoing truthed my spheres and was able to sneak in an emrakul that I couldnt deal with twice. Game 3 I had one sphere down and had thespian stage copy port in order to keep 2 islands tapped every turn, I wastelanded 2 Volcanics which helped. Eventually he had enough to Show and tell in emrakul and I crop rotated while the sphere kept him from forcing it. I drew into another crop rotation while I was on 7 lands to be able to port once and make the token.

[filln]

As promised, the first in a set of black-splash videos:

#117 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyVCrDWx7CA&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=117)

Great recovery in game one there. Not much of an appearance of the black splash in those games, but good games nonetheless. Thanks for posting!

[gigapatrick]

Great recovery in game one there. Not much of an appearance of the black splash in those games, but good games nonetheless. Thanks for posting!

No problem. My pleasure.

[gigapatrick]

Here's another:

#118 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDR1cJxA92s&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=118)

[chaosjace]

How is adding black going? It made more sense in RUG lands to splash for confidant since they want the long game anyway, is MD decay worth it? Seems like it would only be bad against storm, but no deck has really evolved to beat us as it is (IMO). Why not just SB 4 mindbreak traps if combo is such a problem for us?
Earlier I was considering for testing more mana bond and running ensnaring bridge for eldrazi instead of trying to fight their hand or creatures in play. Torpor Orb might just be the best against that if ThotknotSeer becomes a huge issue.
Might even be time to go up to TWO tabernacles.

[Varal]

#116 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBn4CdsqlAQ&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=116)
Any reason not to Gamble for Glacial Chasm game 1? Burn usually just fold to it, do you not have enough time on MTGO to kill with Punishing Fire?

[gigapatrick]

Any reason not to Gamble for Glacial Chasm game 1? Burn usually just fold to it, do you not have enough time on MTGO to kill with Punishing Fire?

No reason not to. Just didn't cross my mind.

[gigapatrick]

#119 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp7HXgCrmU4&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=119)

#120 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4oBR3N0hmg&index=120&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh)

[gigapatrick]

#121 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K2vgZoq7pk&list=PLnKd4zx_gmR4plZ4cgopTDynggjop5awh&index=121)

At the end of the video, I do some speculating about how RG can alter its sideboard to handle a more diverse meta. Love to hear what everyone thinks.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Do you mind typing out some highlights for those of us who can't watch? I'm always interested in sideboard discussion.

[gigapatrick]

Do you mind typing out some highlights for those of us who can't watch? I'm always interested in sideboard discussion.

Well, my initial thoughts were that the black-splash list has sprung up because the meta has become more varied. We aren't simply facing Delver decks, Miracles, and Storm anymore. We're also seeing a resurgence in Reanimator, Sneak and Show, Knight of the Reliquary decks, and others, and we're also facing a new archetype in Eldrazi Stompy. Sphere effects aren't very good against Reanimator or Sneak and Show, so discard in the black-splash sideboard gives us more game against them, while Abrupt Decay gives us more outs to Counterbalance and to Knight of the Reliquary. It also hits common hate cards like Deathrite and Chalice of the Void. On the other hand, the black-splash loses Manabond and Punishing Fire, the former of which gives us more fast combo hands and more control blow outs, while the latter still seems a step or two better than Molten Vortex. So, while I like the black-splash list, I was wondering if the RG sideboard could be reconfigured to deal with the more versatile meta. My initial board considerations include Phyrexian Revoker and Sylvan Library. Phyrexian Revoker can replace some number of Sphere effects since you can name Lion's Eye Diamond against Storm, Griselbrand or Sneak Attack against Sneak and Show or Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman and Knight of the Reliquary when necessary, and Sensei's Divining Top. Sylvan Library can come in against Miracles or against Midrange decks and do a really good Confidant impression (if not be just straight up better since it doesn't die to creature removal). Now, I have no illusions that Revoker is somehow going to solve our Miracles matchup, since it'll die very quick to Swords (though the upside is that will be one less Swords aimed at Marit Lage), but it does seem like it could fill a role similar to discard in the black-splash build: it isn't as effective against Storm, but it trades that loss for more versatility against other decks. Another possibility would be to forget Revokers and Library but to include Pithing Needle for the above-mentioned reasons, since it hits everything relevant except for Lion's Eye. In that case, we'd probably have to trim Sphere effects down to a slim six but then at least we'd have a somewhat better plan against Reanimator and Sneak and Show.

Not saying that this is the best that we can come up with. Just want to start a conversation about it.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

You are hitting a lot of the points that keep my coming back to RUGb time and time again. My board in that deck right now is 3 chalice, 4 sphere, 4 confidant, 2 revoker and 2 grip and it feels like plenty of game against the field. I'm also running a maindeck library just because it's one of my favorite cards period.

I like needle in the current builds of RGb more than revoker. You aren't fighting your own chalices so it seems a little more consistently good even if it's way worse against storm. I still love chalice but I haven't been playing vortex builds very much and it seems a lot more annoying to use there.

[chaosjace]

I have never used S-Assault or Molten Vortex in a match, and I can only speculate on black splash. Could we benefit from Surgical or Extirpate? I think it could help shut down more decks that don't expect it.
We might have some bans coming up too because of Eldrazi. Temple is a problem.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I have never used S-Assault or Molten Vortex in a match, and I can only speculate on black splash. Could we benefit from Surgical or Extirpate? I think it could help shut down more decks that don't expect it.
We might have some bans coming up too because of Eldrazi. Temple is a problem.

Eldrazi are not bad. That matchup is sweet.surgical is too narrow I feel.

[Rivfader]

Well, my initial thoughts were that the black-splash list has sprung up because the meta has become more varied. ... On the other hand, the black-splash loses Manabond and Punishing Fire, the former of which gives us more fast combo hands and more control blow outs, while the latter still seems a step or two better than Molten Vortex. So, while I like the black-splash list, I was wondering if the RG sideboard could be reconfigured to deal with the more versatile meta.

I prefer Pfires over Vortexes too, because they are counter-decay-dredge-proof. But I also think the blacksplash is the best way to approach the diversity of the field (as Decay hits about anything on the field and discard anything in hand). So perhaps the maindeck manabase should be tinkered to sustain both the blacksplash and Groves/Pfires.
(Edit: just scrolled back, this was already suggested by Unsunghero some posts ago)

I also like Sylvan Library. The card is situated somewhere between Life from the Loam and Gamble, being partly cardselection and partly cardadvantage. In contrast to Bobs, it's maindeckable to keep creatureremoval dead, and has great synergy with loam. And as chalicedecks are on the rise, it dodges chalice1 (in contrast to gamble/croprotation) and once it's on the field, it doesn't care about chalice2 either (in contrast to loam).

So essentially I'd like a list with Decay, Pfires/Groves and Sylvan Library in the main. And with spheres and discard as combohate in the sideboard. Seems brewable :)

[gigapatrick]

So essentially I'd like a list with Decay, Pfires/Groves and Sylvan Library in the main. And with spheres and discard as combohate in the sideboard. Seems brewable :)

What to cut to make room, though? Lose Stage/Depths pieces like Rug Lands does?

[Rivfader]

What to cut to make room, though? Lose Stage/Depths pieces like Rug Lands does?

I was thinking about this list. I'll have the chance to play it in a tourney at the end of the month.

33 Lands
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog

27 Spells
3 Life from the loam
3 Sylvan Library
3 Gamble
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Molten Vortex
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress

[snorlaxcom]

What to cut to make room, though? Lose Stage/Depths pieces like Rug Lands does?

Cutting 1-2 manabond and using 3 depths for at least 3 decay seems fine. Saves sb slots since you preboard some answers. I would prefer keeping pfire since d&t will easily cut off vortex g1 and then they have many ways to protect a revoker or just play multiples to then lock you out of removal completely. Pfire disregarding discard and decay is a plus. Having a set of vortex and decay md screams you are gearing for a miracles meta (see CB). G2/3 Vortex fights extractions well where pfire is more vulnerable, so early discard can still compliment a pfire plan vs other decks (although they can still snapcaster surgical back). RUG/x Lands versions have struggled in the past to have a suite of answers for a random gp gauntlet setting, but throwing a Marit Lage at a problem has proven to be enough in this version and foregoing most thing cute has not been a detriment. The only problem I see inhibiting your gameplan is g1 CB and postboard extraction. Everthing else can already be answered efficiently as is or is a combo deck where thoughtseize may buy some turns.

[gigapatrick]

Cutting 1-2 manabond and using 3 depths for at least 3 decay seems fine.

Yeah, that's probably okay, but we still have to make room for more fetches (since Rg usually runs four at most) and a singleton Bayou. Four fetches, a Bayou, and four Mox Diamonds probably isn't enough to support three maindeck Decays and eight or so black cards in the board. You probably need at least two more black sources main. Not sure, but a P-Fire/Decay list could look like:

4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 P-Fire
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle and Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
6 Tree-fetch
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

That's eighteen green sources, eleven black sources, and sixteen red sources. Probably okay, though this list does lose one Depths (not a small thing in my opinion) and all Tranquil Thickets (again, not a small thing), with the upside of not having to use Vortex.

[snorlaxcom]

Yeah, that's probably okay, but we still have to make room for more fetches (since Rg usually runs four at most) and a singleton Bayou. Four fetches, a Bayou, and four Mox Diamonds probably isn't enough to support three maindeck Decays and eight or so black cards in the board. You probably need at least two more black sources main. Not sure, but a P-Fire/Decay list could look like:

4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
3 P-Fire
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle and Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
6 Tree-fetch
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

That's eighteen green sources, eleven black sources, and sixteen red sources. Probably okay, though this list does lose one Depths (not a small thing in my opinion) and all Tranquil Thickets (again, not a small thing), with the upside of not having to use Vortex.

For splash colors I count crops as well. There are also multiple black sources with stage once you get the first out. So a solid 11 from opening hands with more sources as the game progresses.

[Crimhead]

I've thrown this together for testing - it was built in a rush and I'm sure it needs a lot of work:

1 Forest
5 Fetches
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Grove
1 Urborg
1 Bog
1 GQ
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Maze
1Tabernacle
1 Chasm
2 Depths
3 Stage

4 Mox
4 Exploration
4 Loam
2 Decay
3 PFire
2 Smallpox
4 Gamble
3 CR

SB
4 Grip
4 Sphere
1 3Sphere
1 Nether Void
1 Chains Of Mephistopheles
1 Bosieju
1 Seismic Assault
2 Molten Vortex

I'm trying to make a heavy black splash while retaining an overall RGCL feel (to distinguish this from Jund Depths, which runs Lilis, fewer lands, Badlands, Swamp, etc).

I've only tested vs Manaless Dredge so far, where the MU is similar to any other Lands configuration. In particular it's not a good match by which to judge Smallpox!

I havent had a chance to test very much, I tought I'd throw it out here for any opinions (while we are on the topic of black lists).


So essentially I'd like a list with Decay, Pfires/Groves and Sylvan Library in the main. And with spheres and discard as combohate in the sideboard. Seems brewable :)Sylvan Library sounds like a good call

[Rivfader]

I've thrown this together for testing - it was built in a rush and I'm sure it needs a lot of work:

I'm trying to make a heavy black splash while retaining an overall RGCL feel (to distinguish this from Jund Depths, which runs Lilis, fewer lands, Badlands, Swamp, etc).

I've only tested vs Manaless Dredge so far, where the MU is similar to any other Lands configuration. In particular it's not a good match by which to judge Smallpox!

I havent had a chance to test very much, I tought I'd throw it out here for any opinions (while we are on the topic of black lists).

I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).


Sylvan Library sounds like a good call

I think 'maindeck' library is great. I've played two the past months and was really satisfied with them. Usually there's Bob in the side to substitute for loam through gravehate. But Library has two advantages over Bob, not being a creature (keeping removal dead) and having far better synergy with loam. And, it has cardselection to filter non-recursive cards like exploration, gamble and crop rotation (and Abrupt Decay). The more non-recursive cards, the better maindecked Libraries become. And Life from the loam compensates a big weakness of Library, as multiple copies of Library do not provide extra value (dredging for loam between 2 Library triggers solves that).
Libraries have been run in Lands' maindecks sometimes, and now we've seen Abrupt Decays appear as well. Both cards in the main seems real strong against some matchups, especially Miracles.

[Crimhead]

I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).
I started thinking about Smallpox again initially as a way to hose Eldrazi, but I think it's also good against Reanimator, and to a lesser extent S&T. Also great against Fetches and Basics.

How many Libraries do you recommend?

[Rivfader]

I started thinking about Smallpox again initially as a way to hose Eldrazi, but I think it's also good against Reanimator, and to a lesser extent S&T. Also great against Fetches and Basics.

I think smallpox has the same flaw as Karakas versus Griselbrand, your opponent will still draw seven (or fourteen) cards and win the game. I'm guessing it's why some players have cut Karakas from their sideboard.


How many Libraries do you recommend?

Probably 2 ... but I'd like to experiment with 3loam/3library/3gamble split instead of 4loam/4gamble/2thicket. I'd like to cut the thickets for a blacksplash manabase with maindecked Decays while keeping Pfires and Groves, and I hope the libraries will balance out some of the utility I'll miss by cutting the thickets too. I have no doubt it will be worse against some matchups, but I'm also sure it will improve others.

[gigapatrick]

Decided to record all five League videos before posting any of them, so now anyone who is interested may enjoy this Legacy League outing in its entirety:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #4) (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR7eiKdz80EdJarLCbogIKK7)

[grmpytopdecker]

Played David Long's list from SCG Philly last night and went 2-2. Lost to D+T in 3 via a punt, beat two brews where Molten Vortex and Abrupt Decay were stellar, and lost in 3 to ANT.

I am going to play it some more but felt the Vortex focus makes the deck feel more controlling and with the Loam engine going I was able to do a ton of damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

Gods we need Academy Ruins for Enchantments.

[Crimhead]

Gods we need Academy Ruins for Enchantments.
Last thing we need is for :r:/:w: Painter decks to have a way of recurring Blood Moon. I've wanted this land for a long time too (originally for Enchantress), but often I wonder if it wouldn't bite us in the ass.

[Dice_Box]

Last thing we need is for :r:/:w: Painter decks to have a way of recurring Blood Moon. I've wanted this land for a long time too (originally for Enchantress), but often I wonder if it wouldn't bite us in the ass.
I already run a Bojuka Bog both in the main and in the side. If the cost of such a card is everyone has to do that, well I can live with it. The effect overall would be more of a benefit then a problem I feel.

[Crimhead]

At least white decks wouldn't be able to get their RIP back.

Moon is the hardest for us, because after we destroy it we need CR into Bog right away (in response to their trigger). I suppose while Moon is gone we get a window to Waste the Sanctum Ruins before it hits again, so if we don't have CR (or if we drew our Bog) hopefully they can only recur the Moon once.

Having perpetual access to all our dredged/countered/destroyed Enchantments would be amazing. I guess my concern is that it's easier to win without enchantments than it is to win through powerful hate cards. But you're right that if such a land helps keep us in Enchantments more than it helps to keep our opponents flush with hate, we could see a net gain.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Hello everyone!

New to the thread but I have been reading intently for a long time. @gigapartick: The videos are great, especially for us new to the deck. I tank you for supplying them.

So if I can get some advice. I have most of the Lands deck complete, only missing Burnwillows really. I'm willing to by them but I'm torn at the moment on which version of lands to build.

I really like David Long's list that place in Phili recently. It doesn't play Willows/Fire combo but instead adds a Bayou and Molten Vortex with Decays. Has anyone had experience with that built? Do you find it better, or think it could be just as good as standard list?

I have little to no experience with either, but knowledge from keeping up with the deck. I like it because it has a better shot at surviving Blood Moon and Vortex is a better alternate win over Punishing Fire, plus cheaper board control. Dropping a Vortex T1 against Elves or similar decks can be breaking on its own. The addition of Decay is nice. The downside is you Dredgeing away Vortex and Decay lacks the recursion value.

So I guess my big question is, do I buy the Burnwillows, or go for the Bayou and make the Jund version? Your help is appreciated.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You're probably going to want groves on hand just in case you need them, so I'd build RG first.

[Djehuti]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/arlinnkord.html

Haste lage. Pressure miracles with doges and lightning bolts. I love it.

[gigapatrick]

Hello everyone!

New to the thread but I have been reading intently for a long time. @gigapartick: The videos are great, especially for us new to the deck. I tank you for supplying them.

So if I can get some advice. I have most of the Lands deck complete, only missing Burnwillows really. I'm willing to by them but I'm torn at the moment on which version of lands to build.

I really like David Long's list that place in Phili recently. It doesn't play Willows/Fire combo but instead adds a Bayou and Molten Vortex with Decays. Has anyone had experience with that built? Do you find it better, or think it could be just as good as standard list?

I have little to no experience with either, but knowledge from keeping up with the deck. I like it because it has a better shot at surviving Blood Moon and Vortex is a better alternate win over Punishing Fire, plus cheaper board control. Dropping a Vortex T1 against Elves or similar decks can be breaking on its own. The addition of Decay is nice. The downside is you Dredgeing away Vortex and Decay lacks the recursion value.

So I guess my big question is, do I buy the Burnwillows, or go for the Bayou and make the Jund version? Your help is appreciated.

You're welcome for the videos.

I'm kind of in this same bind myself right now. Do I commit to buying more fetches, a Bayou, the Thoughtseizes, and the Confidants so that I can run the black-splash in paper? I'm not certain. I probably don't play enough paper anymore to justify the cash requirement, but the thought that the black-splash might prove to be an upgrade worries me. If it does, will I just have to run a version of the deck proven to be inferior? I hope not.

If I were you, I'd definitely get the Burnwillows and wait on the cards necessary for the black splash. Since the black splash is new, we're seeing more lists appear on mtgtop8.com (including my own), but I'm not certain if one list is strictly superior to the other. Guess we'll have to wait and see if one emerges supreme. After testing both lists online, I still don't have a definitive answer. More on this topic in my next video set.

[Chatto]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

[filln]

Decided to record all five League videos before posting any of them, so now anyone who is interested may enjoy this Legacy League outing in its entirety:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #4) (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR7eiKdz80EdJarLCbogIKK7)

Thanks for the latest set of videos. That Blood & Taxes match was brutal, but I like seeing videos like this from time to time to learn from too.

[gigapatrick]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

I mean, that's my question. Is it even better than just straight RG? I don't know, but it makes me want to experiment with RG's sideboard. If Sphere effects are no longer good enough due to the rise in various combo decks, then can we try other stuff that matches up with the black-splash's discard? REB effects, Revokers, etc.? Again, not sure, but I guess we'll find out in time.

[gigapatrick]

Thanks for the latest set of videos. That Blood & Taxes match was brutal, but I like seeing videos like this from time to time to learn from too.

Yeah, that was brutal. It sucks to be on the receiving end of lock-out pieces.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Is the black splash really that good? Even against Eldrazi, which makes quiet the appearance here in the Netherlands?

Eldrazi seems to be growing everywhere. Its 10% of the aggro meta now. Its most likely all these modern players shifting in preparation for the ban.

Regardless, the Black splash is putting up results so it must be on par say the least. What I find more intriguing is the shift from Punishing Fire over to Vortex. The black splash is for Abrupt Decay and SB tech. As I said before, I have little experience, but on paper it looks like its really adaptable and can sick up where the RG version falls short.

@gigapatrick: Ill look forward to the new videos. It would be a good topic to cover. And thanks for the advice, Groves is probably the safer choice.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Without having messed with the black splash at all, I would say it's possibly better positioned.

If we use the DTB section as indicative of what to expect at a legacy event, then we can expect a lot of Miracles and Eldrazi. The latter is a good MU regardless of the build IMO, the black splash may get a few extra % points due to abrupt decay, but it's probably a negligible amount. With Miracles, the black splash has a much easier time game 1 simply due to having access to decay.

I don't per se think it's an over all better deck, in fact I feel the R/G build is much more efficiently built, with more of it's pieces playing nicely with Life from the Loam, but having more game against miracles is a pretty big upside for the black splash

[Ender666666]

In Modern 8Rack decks, dredge is abused on Dakmor Salvage along with Raven's Crime's Retrace ability, to effectively strip an opponent's hand in short order.

Since Lands already has dredge built in, I suggest giving Raven's Crime a shot... Even as a 2-of alongside Thoughtseize.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

The thoughtseizes are for combo, not slowly whittling away the opponents hand. Just imagine how much worse crime is against things like sneak and show or storm. I think its just too slow for the format despite seeming like it fits right in.

[Ender666666]

Sure, I totally get that Raven's Crime is a very different card. I just mean it might be worth running along with Thoughtsieze to compliment it and add more hand disruption. Is anyone here who plays online willing to test it out?

[Dice_Box]

What do you cut to add such a card? Your talking about a build that is already cannibalising itself for the Back splash. Where are you finding the space for a superfluous card?

[gigapatrick]

Here's another video set:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #5) (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR7MOlQ3xOLhgvI4z0Tlf4fr)

Just straight RG again. Next set will feature the black-splash but with some of my own adjustments.

[filln]

Here's another video set:

Building a Fortress (Leagues #5) (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKd4zx_gmR7MOlQ3xOLhgvI4z0Tlf4fr)

Just straight RG again. Next set will feature the black-splash but with some of my own adjustments.

Nice, I'm starting through some of the videos now. Thanks again for uploading! Initial question, how have the three Tranquil Thickets in the main been for you?

[gigapatrick]

Nice, I'm starting through some of the videos now. Thanks again for uploading! Initial question, how have the three Tranquil Thickets in the main been for you?

Fine. Every now and then you have to keep a hand with Thicket as your only green source, which has bitten me in the ass one time that I can think of. The alternative, four fetches and two Thickets, has its own problem, though, which is having completely dead cards that you can't do anything with, which has also bitten me in the ass. All in all, I prefer three Thickets.

[filln]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/122/671/635937965755172271.png

Traverse the Ulvenwald :g:
Sorcery
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

Delirium - If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, instead search your library for a creature or land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.



Looks kind of interesting, though I think reaching Delirium even with the Loam engine going might not be that easy and without Delirium it's basically a useless card.

[Chatto]

Too narrow, but that's just my opinion.

[Dice_Box]

It's not going in Lands. It does not do anything well enough to best existing options.

[Crimhead]

The thoughtseizes are for combo, not slowly whittling away the opponents hand. Just imagine how much worse crime is against things like sneak and show or storm. I think its just too slow for the format despite seeming like it fits right in.Against S&S, Thoughtseize is probably a lot better because they are a two card combo. Storm likes to cast lots of spells, so if you have the black mana you can start ripping their hand appart. If we can get two or three cards from them soon enough that should buy enough time to get Loam online (then they are toast). I would think unless they go off quickly a single RC will be harder for them to fight through than a single TS.

Probably the card demands we play Urborg though.


I wonder about smallpox. It's a really strong card, because it's basically a 3-for-1, especially versus greedy creaturebased decks like (non-pyromancer) delver and Eldrazi Stompy. But I think it reinforces what Lands is already good at, being manadenial and creaturecontrol. The weakness of Lands is dealing with anything non-land/non-creature. That's why I like Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize a lot (better than smallpox), as they basically hit anything we have problems with. So I'd probably prefer more decays in their place (and free up sideboard space).
Smallpox gets around combo decks that like to hold up fetch lands to ramp mana; or which run basics. This is particularly relevant vs Storm or Reanimator, which have small land counts. vs Reanimator it also kills their dude! It's great vs Elves too. I think in these MUs it's certainly better than Decay!

I'd say the big issues with Smallpox are:
Double :b:. This is not at all trivial!
It worse against Moon and Rip (and Humility, if that becomes a thing).
I would think running two MD Decays is already a considerable boost against Moon decks. Smallpox will help with other tough MUs (combo) and reduce our variance against our better MUs.

I'm not saying Smallpox and Raven's Crime are good choices. But given the current meta shake-up and the increase of :r:/:g:/:b: lists, I think both cards deserve actual testing.

[Rivfader]

Smallpox gets around combo decks that like to hold up fetch lands to ramp mana; or which run basics. This is particularly relevant vs Storm or Reanimator, which have small land counts. vs Reanimator it also kills their dude! It's great vs Elves too. I think in these MUs it's certainly better than Decay!

I'd say the big issues with Smallpox are:
Double :b:. This is not at all trivial!
It worse against Moon and Rip (and Humility, if that becomes a thing).
I would think running two MD Decays is already a considerable boost against Moon decks. Smallpox will help with other tough MUs (combo) and reduce our variance against our better MUs.

I'm not saying Smallpox and Raven's Crime are good choices. But given the current meta shake-up and the increase of :r:/:g:/:b: lists, I think both cards deserve actual testing.

I definitely agree we should test cards, it's the only way a deck can evolve!

But as you mentioned, the manabase will be torn between running utility lands and having sufficient black mana.
Haas' ran 13 lands with access to black, which is 6 more than Long's list, by not-including colorless utilitylands like port and some mazes.
(instead he has smallpox, which does double duty in creaturecontrol and manadenial).
At the same time, its' almost a waste not to run 4 smallpoxes (and some Liliana's) if you're already kneedeep in black mana.

And while it definitely has it's merits (like the decks you've mentioned), don't forget you have to cut cards for it (probably mazes and ports as in Haas' list)!
So it probably would be better to compare smallpox+heavyblacksplash versus nonblack-utilitylands (ports and mazes), instead of smallpox vs decay.

[gigapatrick]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-18)

[Chatto]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-18)

That list is sweet. Interesting to see he dropped two Rishadan Port, is packing four fetch (obviously because of the three Duals), and went back to two Manabond. No Karakas (MB or SB), no Riftstone Portal. All fancy-stuff is out, I like it. The SB is more proactive. All in all, I find his list more combo-oriented. I might give it a spin.

What I like about Daryl Ayers is that he gave David Long's list a try and then made his own adjustments.

[Griselpuff]

2 ports is a strictly budget choice. He said he does like the third thicket

[gigapatrick]

2 ports is a strictly budget choice. He said he does like the third thicket

Oh. He doesn't have four Ports online?

Agreed on the third Thicket.

[zombie_sky_diver]

Just thought I'd post a link to Daryl_Ayers recent 5-0 League build, which has a stream-lined RG maindeck but splashes a Bayou for sideboard options including discard, Confidants, and Decays instead of Grips.

League Decklists (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-18)

I'm a fan. I can see the SB Decays helping a lot.

Do you think 3 Thicket's was also budget concerts? I mean... if you were to add 2 ports what do you think he would have dropped? I'm interested in trying that list.

[Chatto]

zombie_sky_diver: probably one Thicket (maybe two), and something else. I could see me dropping one Port for a Bayou, and Riftstone Portal for a fourth fetch.

The black splash is good, I just need to find the best way to incorporate in my own list

[Crimhead]

I really get the infatuation with Abrupt Decay. Grip is:

Easier to cast through Moon.
Able to kill SDT.
Almost as effective at killing C-B.
Able to killLeyline and other higher cc permanents
Able to catch Tormod's Crypt or Relic off guard.

I tend to think Long chose these (in part) becuase Vortex is less reliable the Punishing Grove and he needed more creature control. In decks running P.Fire, I don't think Decay is as good as Grip.



But as you mentioned, the manabase will be torn between running utility lands and having sufficient black mana.
Haas' ran 13 lands with access to black, which is 6 more than Long's list...Long had six feches, one Bayou, four Mox, and a Bog. Adding just one more Bayou makes 13 sources. Would that be enough?


At the same time, its' almost a waste not to run 4 smallpoxes (and some Liliana's)
...
...don't forget you have to cut cards for it (probably mazes and ports as in Haas' list)! So it probably would be better to compare smallpox+heavyblacksplash versus nonblack-utilitylands (ports and mazes), instead of smallpox vs decay.I think if I skip the Lilis and Pox 3&4 I shouldn't have to cut those utility lands.

As I said, I think MD Decays are largely motivated by the need for more creature control in decks without PF. Smallpox does that just as well, so it makes perfect sense to consider them in the Decay slots (I'm advocating a split). Apart from the colour requirements, the only (major) advantage of MD Decays over Smallpox is that they free up SB space. With the 2-2 split I'll need more SB slots for Grips or extra Decays.

[Chatto]

Or play a basic Swamp? I know it's not a Bayou, but still...