[SCD] Humble Defector with Homeward Path

[Cire]

I was just skulking around the old Fate Reforged Thread when I ran into this quote from Finn. . .


Humble Defector with Homeward Path should be good. We should be excited. But compare it with Treasure Cruise for a moment. It is not even on the same planet in terms of power level.

But now that Treasure Cruise is gone. . . should we explore Defector/Path again? It's a pretty powerful draw engine - that isn't in blue. I doubt blue decks will want to run it, since it takes up a lot of cards, and the blue shell works well enough that it doesn't need something like this. Additionally they would rather turn to Dig Through Time.

What deck or archetype can this card be used in and why?

As stated this is a very powerful - if - vulnerable draw engine. I would suppose that a non-blue deck could run it. I don't think existing decks will want it however, since it does take up a lot of room.

How has the metagame changed or what new cards exist now to make this card playable?

As the quote from Finn stated - when we first saw Defector/Path - we should have been a little more excited. I mean people, were excited, but no one tested the draw engine. There was no point with Cruise around. But now Cruise is gone. . .

Sample Deck List

I didn't include numbers, but i doubt the correct numbers are 4 offs for Defector/path. The idea of this deck was literately Defector/Path - Now I need cards to search for them . . . oh they also search for other lands and they are red green. . . so Punishing Fire. DRS - so I got black in there, and etc. . . . In the end. . . it came out looking a little like Punishing Jund. I don't know if that's the best direction to take.

4 Humble Defector
4 DRS
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Thought Seize
4 Punishing Fire
4 Worldly Tutor

4 Homeward Path
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
14 Other Lands Lands

[Pastorofmuppets]

Maybe some kind of rock-ish shell with a Wishboard? Living Wish can grab both Defector and Path, along with whatever hatebears you're on-color for.

[Valtrix]

Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows just seems much stronger. It's also conveniently a land + 1R card combo, just like humble defector + homeward path. I don't think you need to jam another (weaker) combo into a deck with that already... In general I just don't see the utility of Homeward path being as good at the utility of any other lands in Legacy. Karaks, port, wasteland for example all seem better utility lands and the interaction with humble defector just doesn't seem powerful enough to me.

[rufus]

Blue has lots of untap effects which are one of the better ways to get value from the defector - cards like Mind over Matter or Jeskai Ascendancy (and maybe even Psychic Overload) can be quite explosive in combination with him. Moreover, Defector / Path is going to be a turn 3 thing so I'd expect it to want a control component which, again, pushes things toward blue.

Some other ways to exploit the defector are Astral Slide, Shallow Grave, Threaten, Twinflame, Fractured Loyalty, and Custody Battle.

[Finn]

I can barely believe that I am saying this, but try Starke of Rath in this deck fragment.

[Tylert]

Blue has lots of untap effects which are one of the better ways to get value from the defector - cards like Mind over Matter or Jeskai Ascendancy (and maybe even Psychic Overload) can be quite explosive in combination with him. Moreover, Defector / Path is going to be a turn 3 thing so I'd expect it to want a control component which, again, pushes things toward blue.

Some other ways to exploit the defector are Astral Slide, Shallow Grave, Threaten, Twinflame, Fractured Loyalty, and Custody Battle.

Astral slide seems nice :)
Your probably drawing into more cycling cards that will draw cards for you and reset the humble defector :)
What good cycling cards can be played in legacy? complicate?

The rest is less stellar or even interressting... especially Custody battle. Just can't see the upside of this. your opponent will do the exact same thing as you as soon as he will reach his upkeek : tap it for 2 cards and give it back to you.

[Cire]

I can barely believe that I am saying this, but try Starke of Rath in this deck fragment.

That would actually be hilarious.

[FoolofaTook]

The combo looks more like a BR Death combo to me. Put it in a BR shell to amplify the card draw and play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to make the Homeward Path actually usable by itself.

4 Humble Defector
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Homeward Path
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[rufus]

The rest is less stellar or even interressting... especially Custody battle. Just can't see the upside of this. your opponent will do the exact same thing as you as soon as he will reach his upkeek : tap it for 2 cards and give it back to you.

Some of those cards can have synergy with other stuff like Bazaar Trader


Astral slide seems nice :)
Your probably drawing into more cycling cards that will draw cards for you and reset the humble defector :)
What good cycling cards can be played in legacy? complicate?

Brand isn't going to be entirely terrible in a deck that has some kind of homeward path game plan.
Street Wraith and possibly Edge of Autumn can 'free' cycle.
Unearth saw some play with Snapcaster Mage and could work OK with trader and sacrifice effects.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Homeward Path is pretty terrible... I find it difficult to believe any Legacy deck wants to run 4 of that card.
I would think a deck that successfully uses the Humble Defector/Homeward Path synergy would run 3 or 4 Defectors and 1 Path with multiple ways to find the Path. I'm thinking Crop Rotation or Expedition Map.

Is this draw engine something R/G Combo Lands even wants?



Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond

Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire

Enchantments
4 Exploration
2 Manabond

Mana Lands
1 Forest
2 Taiga
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Mana Denial
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Combo
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths

Draw
4 Humble Defector
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy

Utility
3 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Homeward Path

That is a 62 card list, but the R/G lands thread lists a range of cards to include and that is where I copy/pasta'd from. I am NOT a Lands player, so keep in mind I'm not recommending an optimal list, just looking to see if HD/HP works here.
I basically swapped Gamble for Humble Defector.

[rufus]

Homeward Path is pretty terrible... I find it difficult to believe any Legacy deck wants to run 4 of that card.
I would think a deck that successfully uses the Humble Defector/Homeward Path synergy would run 3 or 4 Defectors and 1 Path with multiple ways to find the Path. I'm thinking Crop Rotation or Expedition Map.

Ostensibly, a deck could go the other way and try to find other cards to work with Homeward Path.


Humble Defector
Treacherous Pit-Dweller
Starke of Rath

Homeward Path
Brand
...

[DarthVicious]

*Immediately begins brewing a Burn list including this combo*

[TsumiBand]

I don't think that Homeward Path is going to mitigate the entire spectrum of times when this card is less than stellar. I half expected someone to suggest it in a Zombardment list, just to give the controller more ways of flat out nixing the card before it can change controllers. Humble Defector + Liquimetal Coating + Shrapnel Blast, you're my only hope!

[FoolofaTook]

Ostensibly, a deck could go the other way and try to find other cards to work with Homeward Path.


Humble Defector
Treacherous Pit-Dweller
Starke of Rath

Homeward Path
Brand
...


The question is would you want to play any of the combo cards on their own merit and the answer is no. Sleeper Agent is another card that would fit into a fast aggro motif but it's just a really bad card on its own.

The real advantage of Humble Defector is that it's a draw engine that can carry a jitte. Not too many of those around.

Another possibility would be Grixis with Gilded Drake's in the sideboard for when the opponent is playing creatures.

[maharis]

Plenty of cute synergies. A Naya deck with Reconnaissance and Knight of the Reliquary could work. Knight finds your one-of Path, you attack and draw extra cards. But Sylvan Library is probably just better.

Umbral Mantle gets you an extra activation for 3 mana and can be found with SFM. but SOFI is probably better.

I just don't see this card being good enough in a fair Legacy deck. I saw a guy stacking activations in Jeskai Ascendancy on a stream last week, that was impressive.

[wcm8]

What I would like to know is why Night's Whisper (or even Sign in Blood) don't see more play in non-Blue, Black-containing decks. They straight up draw you 2 cards for a fairly low cost of 2 life, and in an aggressive shell SiB can even be used to nail the opponent for the last 2 damage.

I understand that Humble Defector *could* be a repeatable draw engine with the correct combination of cards, but in most scenarios you're likely just going to be forced to use him 'as is' and hand him over to an opponent who might get to untap with him. Hence the comparison with NW/SiB.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is a singular Draw 2 for 2 even a powerful enough effect for Legacy in general? Because if it were, I'd imagine the aforementioned Black sorceries would actually see some play. I'm thinking that most deck lists have enough choices to approach optimization, and if they are looking for some card drawing power there already exists better alternatives than what Humble Defector could offer.

edit: I suppose if there were a cheap and effective way to *stack* draw activations and thus net 10+ cards in a single turn I'd have a different opinion and see the value in running such a clunky card. But without this sort of enabler, I see it as being mostly useless.

[TsumiBand]

What I would like to know is why Night's Whisper (or even Sign in Blood) don't see more play in non-Blue, Black-containing decks. They straight up draw you 2 cards for a fairly low cost of 2 life, and in an aggressive shell SiB can even be used to nail the opponent for the last 2 damage.

I understand that Humble Defector *could* be a repeatable draw engine with the correct combination of cards, but in most scenarios you're likely just going to be forced to use him 'as is' and hand him over to an opponent who might get to untap with him. Hence the comparison with NW/SiB.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is a singular Draw 2 for 2 even a powerful enough effect for Legacy in general? Because if it were, I'd imagine the aforementioned Black sorceries would actually see some play. I'm thinking that most deck lists have enough choices to approach optimization, and if they are looking for some card drawing power there already exists better alternatives than what Humble Defector could offer.

edit: I suppose if there were a cheap and effective way to *stack* draw activations and thus net 10+ cards in a single turn I'd have a different opinion and see the value in running such a clunky card. But without this sort of enabler, I see it as being mostly useless.

I think this is spot on. Sign in Blood is not staple enough to break through, how could this possibly be any better? The lengths one goes through to negate the drawback in this car, after fucking summoning sickness even, cannot possibly be more valuable than :b::b: and two life.

Hell, Red has 'draw two' spells right now that are easier to bolster. I would submit that in a deck that goes Hellbent as a matter of fact, even Dangerous Wager is arguably more potent than this guy.

[rufus]

...

Hell, Red has 'draw two' spells right now that are easier to bolster. I would submit that in a deck that goes Hellbent as a matter of fact, even Dangerous Wager is arguably more potent than this guy.

I think the good scenario with defector is to swing a couple of times and then turn it into cards once it becomes 'obsolete', and he's just not good and fast enough for it to make sense in legacy.

[phonics]

What I would like to know is why Night's Whisper (or even Sign in Blood) don't see more play in non-Blue, Black-containing decks. They straight up draw you 2 cards for a fairly low cost of 2 life, and in an aggressive shell SiB can even be used to nail the opponent for the last 2 damage.

I understand that Humble Defector *could* be a repeatable draw engine with the correct combination of cards, but in most scenarios you're likely just going to be forced to use him 'as is' and hand him over to an opponent who might get to untap with him. Hence the comparison with NW/SiB.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is a singular Draw 2 for 2 even a powerful enough effect for Legacy in general? Because if it were, I'd imagine the aforementioned Black sorceries would actually see some play. I'm thinking that most deck lists have enough choices to approach optimization, and if they are looking for some card drawing power there already exists better alternatives than what Humble Defector could offer.

edit: I suppose if there were a cheap and effective way to *stack* draw activations and thus net 10+ cards in a single turn I'd have a different opinion and see the value in running such a clunky card. But without this sort of enabler, I see it as being mostly useless.

This, using defector plus an enabler automatically puts it at more mana and cards than nights whisper for the same effect, so really you have to be able to get two activations at least before it can even be considered viable, even if the enabler cost 0 mana. The only place I've seen it work is in Jeskai Ascendancy.

[Echelon]

You can always go green and use the game's best untappers. Quirion Rangers, Wirewood Symbiotes and mayhaps Scryb Rangers. Put in stuff like Exploration to keep your land count up and stack the shit out of that little bugger.

This also means you get to run Crop Rotations to help you find the Homeward Paths.

[Aggro_zombies]

You can always go green and use the game's best untappers. Quirion Rangers, Wirewood Symbiotes and mayhaps Scryb Rangers. Put in stuff like Exploration to keep your land count up and stack the shit out of that little bugger.

This also means you get to run Crop Rotations to help you find the Homeward Paths.
But in green you have Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam, both of which are just plain better (and one of which isn't even that good!).

[Echelon]

But in green you have Sylvan Library and Life from the Loam, both of which are just plain better (and one of which isn't even that good!).

In green, you also have Elves!, lol.

[Gheizen64]

Had it costed 1 it would've been probably a good, flavorful card. As it is, it need too much setup and it's way too slow. A pity really. But we all know wotc golden design rule, if it ain't blue, add 1 to casting cost.

[Finn]

I think that some of you guys are undervaluing this fellow. Unchecked, this guy will win the game. None of the draw spells mentioned can do that. It may be closer to Mangara than anything else. Needs a specialty land and makes card advantage. So I wish to add that Aether Vial is a card. Defector looks a lot better when it is flashing in for free on the opponent's end step.

Any deck that is going to use Humble Defector must be drawing gas or it is doomed to failure. That means no stacking its ability with elves, wasting resources on Exploration Maps, and no Brand. The card must be present in a deck that can function without it. I recommend staying as close to aggro as possible unless you are going to do something unconventional like Eidolon/Ankh control or whatever. In an aggro scenario, you can never, ever let the opponent untap with this on his side. His dream would be to chump block with this guy and tap it. So it looks like 4x H.Paths. Lovely. What are you going to do with the extras?

I prefer red/black with Pit Dwellers and Urborg.

[rufus]

Had it costed 1 it would've been probably a good, flavorful card. As it is, it need too much setup and it's way too slow. A pity really. But we all know wotc golden design rule, if it ain't blue, add 1 to casting cost.

At 1 cc it would be pretty OP, there are silly lines of play like:

Turn1: Volcanic Island Humble Defector
Turn2: Activate Defector, Cerulean Wisps, Activate Defector, Tidal Bore Activate Defector.

Of course, there isn't much in the way of alternative creatures that would work in the defector's place.

[frogczar]

Look, I like to see people trying out new things and I especially like to see people trying to fit card draw into a deck like Burn (my favorite deck).

In Legacy if you aren't immediately killing your opponent with a two card combo (Painter+Grindstone for example), it isn't really worth running. Especially if that two-card combo's individual cards do next to nothing on their own.

The land and the creature are not legacy-worthy cards. Sorry.

If you want to add some card draw to Burn, just run Bob and/or Sylvan Library. Problem solved.

[(nameless one)]

What about putting Humble Defector in some kind of Red based Stax deck.

I was thinking of Imperial Recruiter (Painter). I was also thinking of MUD but the red versions already have Daretti for that.

[Gheizen64]

Look, I like to see people trying out new things and I especially like to see people trying to fit card draw into a deck like Burn (my favorite deck).

In Legacy if you aren't immediately killing your opponent with a two card combo (Painter+Grindstone for example), it isn't really worth running. Especially if that two-card combo's individual cards do next to nothing on their own.

The land and the creature are not legacy-worthy cards. Sorry.

If you want to add some card draw to Burn, just run Bob and/or Sylvan Library. Problem solved.

To be fair, both pieces of the combo are better than painter's ones. The creature is a 2/1, it can still draw 2 in a pinch even if you don't have a land, and it help you find that land while doing so. And the land still give you colorless instead of doing absolutely nothing like Grindstone without painter.

Also, as someone pointed out, Stark +homeward path is basically Mangara + Karakas. Maybe Red and taxes? Imperial recruiters, lavamancers, bolt in stead of StP, wasteland. Biggest problem is having no Thalia, maybe Eidolon could play the part of the anti-combo card. There's absolutely nothing you could play in place of Mom though, and nothing like Flickerwisp or SFM either.

Eidolon + Homeward + defector does look cute though.

EDIT: something like this?

4 Humble Defector
4 AEther Vial
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Starke of Rath
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Homeward Path
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Faithless Looting
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Fire Imp
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 Fireblast
SB: 2 Pyroblast + 13 other cards depending on meta

Piledriver is basically a way to have an out to TNN. Recruiter is such a nice card.

[Barook]

EDIT: something like this?

4 Humble Defector
4 AEther Vial
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Starke of Rath
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Homeward Path
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Faithless Looting
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Fire Imp
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 Fireblast
SB: 2 Pyroblast + 13 other cards depending on meta

Piledriver is basically a way to have an out to TNN. Recruiter is such a nice card.
Why not replacing 4 Mountains with Grove and run the PF combo as well?

[Darkenslight]

Why not replacing 4 Mountains with Grove and run the PF combo as well?

I wouldn't run it with Eidolon main. I think a much more interesting build would be a R/W control variant, using White's exile and reflection cards with Red Burn, Defector and Starke.

[Valtrix]

I recommend staying as close to aggro as possible unless you are going to do something unconventional like Eidolon/Ankh control or whatever. In an aggro scenario, you can never, ever let the opponent untap with this on his side. His dream would be to chump block with this guy and tap it.

Humble Defector can only be activated on your turn, so no blocking shenanigans with it.

[Cire]

I wouldn't run it with Eidolon main. I think a much more interesting build would be a R/W control variant, using White's exile and reflection cards with Red Burn, Defector and Starke.

Which reflection cards?

[Gheizen64]

This is a slightly more refined list. Recruiter was too slow and made for clunky hands. Defector is a really good card, homeward path not really.

4 Humble Defector
4 AEther Vial
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Homeward Path
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Faithless Looting
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Forked Bolt
4 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Forked Bolt
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens

[iamajellydonut]

What's the Faithless Looting for?

[Cire]

Stark/Path didn't work out?

[Bosque]

Starke looked pretty cool, but that could be just how I feel about Mangara talking (also we could refer to him as Ned).

What about the potential to use Scroll Rack to dig in a bit more with the drawn cards you don't want? The fetches can shuffle them away for you.

[Gheizen64]

What's the Faithless Looting for?

Card filtering/search + grave filling for Mancers. It's cheap and in-color. Top could be an alternative with 8 fetches but not sure.

About Starke: i never played it a single time the few games i tried. It wasn't really tutorable because as a singleton, recruiter->stark->tap is 3 turns to remove a creature or an artifact, way too slow. Differently from Mangara it can't destroy lands so it doesn't really close games as well, and vial at 2 is probably stronger in this deck since defectors and eidolons are the most important cards.

The deck doesn't feel competitive but i'm liking it a lot because it play similarly to my favourite deck of all time: RDW mana denial version with tangle wires. Play small critters, burn away theirs, keep them mana strangled, win with that Jackal Pup or Monastery + burn away for reach.

I'm not convinced Humble Defector + Homeward path is better than simply playing Pyromancer btw. You have a slightly less shitty manabase, and Pyromancer don't need any combo to produce virtual card advantage. In fact now that i think about it, unless you play already some sort of tutor engine for it, i don't feel it's worth it, even if Defector is a good card by itself, more than i imagined.

[iamajellydonut]

Card filtering/search + grave filling for Mancers. It's cheap and in-color.

This isn't enough.

Faithless Looting, as it's been discussed and proven time and time again, is not a proper substitution for your standard blue cantrips. You need it to actually enable something or else you're wasting time and wasting cards and wasting slots. Hell, you don't even have Anger in here. That kind of shell, fragile though it may be, I might be able to get behind. But Looting for the sake of Looting is a piss poor plan.

[Cire]

I'm not convinced Humble Defector + Homeward path is better than simply playing Pyromancer btw. You have a slightly less shitty manabase, and Pyromancer don't need any combo to produce virtual card advantage. In fact now that i think about it, unless you play already some sort of tutor engine for it, i don't feel it's worth it, even if Defector is a good card by itself, more than i imagined.

Why not both? Clearly Defector/Path goes into a control shell of some sort since it's not a combo and its not aggressive enough.

Going off your initial ideas (not YP or MM) but with a white splash:

"Draw Engine"
4 Humble Defector
3 Homeward Path

"Control Lands"
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

"Other Lands"
8 Fetch
6 Lands

"Control"
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Forked Bolt

"SMF Shell"
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

(By running equipment you make the Defector somewhat more relevant as a creature when you don't have Path)

I guess - we can try to fit in MM or YP in there . . . but they work so much better in the blue cantrip shells.

But if you remove the "control lands" you might be able to add more burn and place YP or MM into the mix. . . .

[TsumiBand]

This isn't enough.

Faithless Looting, as it's been discussed and proven time and time again, is not a proper substitution for your standard blue cantrips. You need it to actually enable something or else you're wasting time and wasting cards and wasting slots. Hell, you don't even have Anger in here. That kind of shell, fragile though it may be, I might be able to get behind. But Looting for the sake of Looting is a piss poor plan.

You hear that? This deck is OVR. </deck>

Fer srsly now tho - I still think I'd rather cast Dangerous Wager than all of the cards mentioned (looting, humble D, whatever else. especially homeward path). Two cards right meow, and maybe like a land or two I don't care about in the bin to feed like a Lavamancer or a Deathrite or something. And Dangerous Wager ain't even very good, right - you have to be < 2 cards in hand to make it not terrible-awful. And I still feel like if I had to pick between Red draw spells I'd take the Wager. I'd cast it with Blood Scrivener in play.

That's the two card draw combo we deserve - Dangerous Wager, and Blood Scrivener. I play like Jund aggro, I overextend, I play Blood Scrivener and start drawing 2-3 cards or some dang and draw more burn and guys. You scoop because this matchup is lousy for you. I order a pizza and we talk about how we've been too busy to have hobbies lately because we just had babies and we work too much. You know, real talk.

[rufus]

...

Fer srsly now tho - I still think I'd rather cast Dangerous Wager than all of the cards mentioned
...

I'm not sure where you'd find other pieces to make things worthwhile, but - in combination with the defector, Cerulean Wisps and Tidal Bore are comparable with Ancestral Recall and Gush respectively. Defector still seems like a card with potential in Jeskai Ascendancy decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

In combination with the defector, Cerulean Wisps and Tidal Bore are comparable with Ancestral Recall and Gush respectively.
Yes, but Wisps and Bore are terrible cards without Defector. And even with Defector, you've got a good chance of drawing more Wisps and Bores instead of good cards.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think you want to go combo with him. He's way too fragile to make a deck around him, but a 6-7 slots for a drawing engine? Imho it's the better proposition.

[rufus]

Yes, but Wisps and Bore are terrible cards without Defector. ...

I think there's some potential - for example wisps isn't terrible in combination with cards that tap for U, but yeah, they're contextual at best.

[TsumiBand]

Cerulean what-now? Gaah

I know I started by saying Blood Scrivener, but fuck.

Let us not forget how the stack actually works; you will not draw any cards from Humble Defector until its ability actually resolves, by which point you have to have figured out just what you're going to do with the little bugger. So anything that's going to like "draw into more untap effects" is going to be bad, until you can either take control of Defector again, or plop down a new one without summoning sickness. In fact, if you did regain control of it after it switched sides twice in a turn, is it sick again? I know it's been in play since your last upkeep but you didn't control it continuously. I think I will nees to check on that.

But in any case, the problem of drawing into untap spells still remains. They won't do anything cromulent until you regain your Defector, so they have to already be in-hand, which makes it clunky.

[Ace/Homebrew]

But in any case, the problem of drawing into untap spells still remains. They won't do anything cromulent until you regain your Defector, so they have to already be in-hand, which makes it clunky.Obviously you draw into Homeward Path (that's why you're running 4), play it, then regain control of your Defector, THEN use the untap spells. C'mon now! :wink:

[Finn]

Summoning sickness language specifically states that you must control it continuously. And I hope we are all in agreement that you must be drawing into useful stuff. Don't bother with any of that other foolishness. The rest of the deck has to be business. Though I must admit that I would prefer something to find the land. You could Loot for it. But then I want to use the grave for something.

[TsumiBand]

Summoning sickness language specifically states that you must control it continuously. And I hope we are all in agreement that you must be drawing into useful stuff. Don't bother with any of that other foolishness. The rest of the deck has to be business. Though I must admit that I would prefer something to find the land. You could Loot for it. But then I want to use the grave for something.

Right, that's why I started thinking Jund but then I think there must surely be more advanced draw, especially when you start moving into Black. Though Jund provides a staple in Abrupt Decay which would be a fair oh-shit handle if you draw two off of HD and then start losing to it because you drew nothing relevant.

Like, that's one thing about this spell that seems real bad too - I know people are not used to this idea because the best card drawing is in Blue and is therefore abundant and littered with deck manipulation and so on, but - when you don't draw anything good, you just gave your opponent a dude. A small dude, to be sure, but you're giving your opponent a card and they aren't exactly obligated to return it (if you don't draw your Homeward Path or whatever). In that event, you're just better off casting Words of Wisdom or some shit - I use one card to get two cards, you get one card. Only it's Blue, so therefore has Awesome.

The untap trickery is just bound to bite you in the butt. And I get that people want to stack the effect but again, again -- here's what it'll look like -
Activate Humble Defector
Respond by untapping it with Cerulean Wisps I guess
Activate HD again
run out of tricks, draw 4 cards and HD bounces to the other side of the table
If lucky, Homeward Path it back to your side. If unlucky, have grip of cards that do very little by themselves. In either event, you're probably waiting until next turn to actually do anything.

If decks are engines, then this is going to be roughly akin to popping the clutch every turn. You're gonna stall, a lot, and it's gonna be awkward, like "i can't believe i'm losing my virginity to an alien species" awkward.

[GenghisTom]

The bottom line is, this is just a draw engine, nothing more.
A two card engine that can net +2 cards per turn, which, if not dealt with, will turn the game in your favor in short time.

I think a good shell for Humble Defector + Homeward Path would be some kind of Naya deck with Knight of the Reliquary to search out Path when you need it and maybe 1 or 2 Scryb Sprite for drawing 4 cards in one turn when you feel like it.
Possibly Naya Maverick or something.
It's not a strategy to go all in with bad cards like Cerulean Wisps or Crop Rotation etc, but it is a nice non-blue draw engine for those kind of decks.

[Darkenslight]

The bottom line is, this is just a draw engine, nothing more.
A two card engine that can net +2 cards per turn, which, if not dealt with, will turn the game in your favor in short time.

I think a good shell for Humble Defector + Homeward Path would be some kind of Naya deck with Knight of the Reliquary to search out Path when you need it and maybe 1 or 2 Scryb Sprite for drawing 4 cards in one turn when you feel like it.
Possibly Naya Maverick or something.
It's not a strategy to go all in with bad cards like Cerulean Wisps or Crop Rotation etc, but it is a nice non-blue draw engine for those kind of decks.

...Punishing Naya?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

...Punishing Naya?

But... If you get a Knight of the Reliquary out you are already in a good position.

Without haste this engine is just not good enough! So I thought damn Survival of the fittest is banned so you cant search anger and him and do tricks. But then I realized if I had a Survival out I wouldn't need to draw 2 cards... Same logic applies to Knight, why play a bunch of bad spells instead of just do normal Knight stuff!

[Echelon]

it's gonna be awkward, like "i can't believe i'm losing my virginity to an alien species" awkward.

QFT!

This made me lol.

[HammafistRoob]

Sweet guys lets play a mono red deck that gets pooped by wasteland and creature removal. There are much better CA engines in every other color except red and white. Card advantage engines have to be really good to be played nowadays, hell Bob sees practically zero play :(.

[sjmcc13]

theres a lot of pages i didn't read, but there are better ways to abuse homeward path


hunted horror
hunted dragon
Varchild's War-Riders
Phelddagrif
brooding saurian


there are other hunted creatures also but i can't remember them off the top of my head.

Path does not work with the Hunted's or any other effect that put tokens into play under someone else's control.

[Cire]

There are much better CA engines in every other color except red and white.

I think that's the point . . . this is a CA engine to be used in mono red and boros or maybe even in naya or mardu.

No one is saying this is replacing blue draw spells.

[phonics]

Someone should play it in a burn deck with Mass Hysteria.

[EunB]

3 Humble Defector
2 Perplexing Chimera
3 Homeward Path

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time

4 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Baleful Strix

4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Forked Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sudden Demise
1 True-Name Nemesis


Played this list for fun in a small local tournament. Obviously Perplexing Chimera is bad, but making opponents read cards is always fun. He's quite good vs Combo as well (if you can survive long enough to play him), so I main decked him.

Went 2-1, losing to some aggro deck that dropped a large KotR w/ Mother of Runes that he resolved with Pyroblast through my FoW that finished me off with him at 4 life.

The "combo" of HD + HP was easy to assemble with DTT, and fit well into the shell of YP + cheap spells. I doubt it'll be a real "thing", but definitely took over a few games by itself.

Note: Humble Defector also has a weird interaction with Tabernacle of the Pendrall Vale we discovered -- judge ruled I can tap it and draw with Tabernacle trigger on stack and it will still die under opps. control. Opp. was tapped out so I'm left curious if they'd be able to pay and save him.

[RPGbudgie]

Land (21)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Homeward Path
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island

Enchantment (6)
3x Illusions of Grandeur
3x Puca's Mischief

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant (18)
4x Brainstorm
2x Curfew
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle

Creature (10)
4x Humble Defector
2x Imperial Recruiter
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Starke of Rath

Sorcery (3)
3x Donate

Sideboard (15)
2x Curfew
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liquimetal Coating
2x Pithing Needle
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Starke of Rath
4x Teferi's Response
1x Volcanic Fallout

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a bit more of a control/combo deck I've been thinking about. I'm going to try it out tonight at our weekly legacy.

Puca's mischief seems good with homeard path. You give them your creatures in exchange for their noncreature permanents then take back your creatures. It would be better if your creatures didn't have activated abilities, but oh well. Also good with illusions of grandeur. Stack the tiggers with puca's first then illusions cumulative upkeep. Resolve puca's to give them the illusions and then don't pay the cost.

Curfew seems really good as well.

[rufus]

...

Puca's mischief seems good with homeard path. You give them your creatures in exchange for their noncreature permanents then take back your creatures. It would be better if your creatures didn't have activated abilities, but oh well. Also good with illusions of grandeur. Stack the tiggers with puca's first then illusions cumulative upkeep. Resolve puca's to give them the illusions and then don't pay the cost.

...

Embargo could work as an alternative to Illusions of Grandeur. It fits a little better with the tap ability critters, and is probably a little more effective at buying you time to get mischief on line.

[Cire]

The "combo" of HD + HP was easy to assemble with DTT, and fit well into the shell of YP + cheap spells. I doubt it'll be a real "thing", but definitely took over a few games by itself.
.

Glad you're testing it, but at the same time disappointed at the result. The hope of HD + HP was to have a draw engine outside blue. If it fits in blue then I think the next question is going to be what's the point? BS + Ponder + (Git) + DTT are already such a powerful engine that using them to assemble a draw engine instead of a combo win or other win con, seems kinda circuitous.

[EunB]

Glad you're testing it, but at the same time disappointed at the result. The hope of HD + HP was to have a draw engine outside blue. If it fits in blue then I think the next question is going to be what's the point? BS + Ponder + (Git) + DTT are already such a powerful engine that using them to assemble a draw engine instead of a combo win or other win con, seems kinda circuitous.

I agree in principle but think Blue is unfortunately somewhat necessary for Ponder / DTT as both Defector and Homeward Path are relatively useless on their own. If we're relying on them to be a CA engine in a non-blue deck it's going to hurt to draw 3 Defectors and not see a Path.

For this reason I tried testing them in a deck that already contains a lot of selection so that not only are we able to get the synergy online more consistently but we also can really churn through our deck to bury our opponent in insurmountable card advantage.

As for whether the ends justify the means, I'd say probably not, but it's too fun not to try.