Grixstill - Landstill UBR

[B88]

first of all i would ask sorry if my english is not the best! please forgive me! :tongue:


Grixstill

To begin with, the whole story started when I saw, during the GP New Jersey, the Lam Phan's Deck, which was like coming back from a long time ago. After seeing it I wondered about some choices and I started to develop the deck through other ways.
My first thoughts and questions were:

1) What strategy should I play?
2) In order to apply that strategy, what color could be the best fitting support for a Urx shell ?

Lam Phan's ( http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15272&iddeck=113409 ) deck looked like a tempo deck, not as a control one as it seemed;the Stifle + Wasteland package made it a tempoish version, but it hadn't a proper answer for a Tarmo or a Nemesis once they come into play. So that was the first thing that i would fix. In a meta full of: BGx, TA, Deathblade, Canadian etc etc..the deck didn't seem to me the best choice in a open field.
Then I decided to play a more control-oriented version than a tempo-oriented one , and I tried to find some answers for those problems, so i needed some removal spells that could deal with such threats. At first I thought to play a white splash as support color, which had the perfect removal package: Swords, Council's and Virdict, but after some testing I realized how weak was it against just a Goose or one Nemesis.
Let me explain: to remove those threats we need at least either a Council or a Verdict, and both need WW, and in meta full of Wastelands (and also Stifle)this is not the best choice. So I chose Black over White, because it gives to us cards like: Innocent Blood and Toxic Deluge which do the same things but are cheaper than other cards.
The second color following the Black splash is Red, because i think that is huge against Combo and , in a general way, this Metagame, and it also helps us (with Bolt) to drop Stanstill as soon as we can.
The game plan is to stabilize the board first and then to drop Standstill,which will give us a big card advantage. Finally, when we are sure to keep the board situation under control we can start the aggression by swinging with manlands or dropping Jace to close the game.
Let me say that the deck can crush, quite easily, every other control and midrange deck, because their removal spells are usually useless against us and we have tons of counters. Just take a look to a card which is insane against them: Spell Snare. It counters: Counterbalance, Counterspell, Tourach, Confidant, Stoneforge and other key spells.

A very good player and also a friend: Kai Thiele, helped me to build the deck.
so let me show you the list:

Istant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Counterspell
2 Dig Through Time

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

Sorcery
3 Innocent Blood
2 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge

Enchantment
3 Standstill

Artifacts
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

PW
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
1 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tarn Pitt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Badland

SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Remuvals
3Innocent + 3Bolt + 2EE + 1Toxic: they are the best removal cards that we could play. the number/split of them is a meta choice, also it depends in our game plane style.
Toxic and EE are good sweepers and Innocent delete Tarmo/Goose and Nemesis with just one B mana.

Couners
4Fow + 3Snare + 2Pierce +1Counterspell +1Reb: when you play Standstill you will always play Snare, nothing so say. 4Fows are an evergreen.
Pierces are those counters which you want against combo, tempo and even against any random deck.
Counterspell and Reb is a split (i like Reb a lot) but the previous slot could be filled with the second Counterspell

Cantrips
4BS + 2Ponder + 2Top: i decided to split Ponder and Top because Top is huge under Standstill and we can drop it without a blue mana source, and it also helps us against ANT and every deck which runs discard spells.

Draw Engine
2DTT + 3Standstill: Dig is the best card when we need to find a specifc card in a specific moment. 2 is a correct number i think, because build the grave is not always easy, and we don't want more than one copy at the first hand. 3Stds are why we play the deck, obv is not simple play it and there many scenario that we need to think when we play it, but still one of the best draw engine in magic.

Finisher
Jace and Mandlands usually are our best finishers, but sometimes happens that Bolt + Snap for Bolt will be a worthy finisher as well.

Side
is a working progress area, i mean, there are many choices wich could fit well with this deck. many of you will see weird one card: Price of Progress....let me explain why is there. the deck has problems against deck like: Mud, Lands and Post, because our counter are usually useless, and we don't make any pressure for close the game before them. so this card crush them when they not expect it, more lands come in to play more will be the damage, and we don't have afraid of it because those decks has not quickly threats!

I'm going to add other things to the topic as soon as possible!!!


Update!!!!!


after the ban of Dig and Cruise i think this deck could be good in this new meta. the new list looks like this:

Istant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Repeal

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage

Sorcery
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge

Enchantment
4 Standstill

Artifacts
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

PW
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

i'm not sure about those cards:
-trinket: takes good tools but is slow
-innocent blood: too many mentors :tongue:
-ponders: is not the best card when you draw with standstill

cards i would add in maindeck:
-Bonfire of the damned: could be a finisher and a sweeper as well
-Vendilion: is good against many deck and has a good clock
-Spell pierce: not the best but not the worst in many mu

[btm10]

This is the version I've been testing.


4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock
2 Innocent Blood

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Innocent Blood
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Forked Bolt
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Red Elemental Blast

This list solves the Goyf problem without compromising too much of the rest of the deck's strengths. I suspect Shock Wave and Lam are just more proficient with the UR version than I am (because testing does suggest that it's stronger overall), but the UR version's issues with Goyf and TNN are real, and Thoughtseize does improve the game 1 matchup against most combo decks. The flip side is that that you lose the Stifle/Wasteland plan and in addition to how good that plan is in conjunction with Standstill, you miss out on a lot of incidental goodness of both Stifle and Wasteland against Storm and Miracles.

[hoodwinked]

I feel like UR Delver splash black, Grixis Control, and Landstill are all circling around the similar cores. How do either of you feel about Tasigur as 1x or 2x in the deck? Seems like under a standstill he allows for card draw, and dances well against Tarmogoyf (though he does fuel them to an extent.) Teferi's response also seems like nice tech against anything aimed at the manlands, but perhaps that's getting to specialized.

[B88]

This is the version I've been testing.


4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock
2 Innocent Blood

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
2 Innocent Blood
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Forked Bolt
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Red Elemental Blast

This list solves the Goyf problem without compromising too much of the rest of the deck's strengths. I suspect Shock_Wave and Lam are just more proficient with the UR version than I am (because testing does suggest that it's stronger overall), but the UR version's issues with Goyf and TNN are real, and Thoughtseize does improve the game 1 matchup against most combo decks. The flip side is that that you lose the Stifle/Wasteland plan and in addition to how good that plan is in conjunction with Standstill, you miss out on a lot of incidental goodness of both Stifle and Wasteland against Storm and Miracles.

Seize it doesn't help you against Tarmo, only if he has it in hand....but when he drop it you have less answer, for example: no EE. also Seize is not the best in against all tempo deck. but i think is because there aren't in your meta :smile:
i would like add them in side but i like vendilion because we have a race! :cool:

[gabelmeister]

I am playing Tasigur instead of 1 SDT in the deck righz now and he is amazing.
Works fine with Standstill.
Is strong against goyf.
Does CA cause we can often use it'a ability in thr lategame.
And all that for just B

[btm10]

Seize it doesn't help you against Tarmo, only if he has it in hand....but when he drop it you have less answer, for example: no EE. also Seize is not the best in against all tempo deck. but i think is because there aren't in your meta :smile:
i would like add them in side but i like vendilion because we have a race! :cool:

Thoughtseize is there because once you're in Black there's little reason not to run it and because it partially makes up for the lack of Stifle and Wasteland by giving you non-countermagic disruption. I don't think we need nearly as much maindeck removal as you're running to compete with RUG and BUG, and you have so many do-nothing spells against combo (Explosives, Deluge, Innocent Blood) that your game 1 against basically any combo deck is worse than the UR version's. I've found the BUG and RUG matchups are more than adequately improved with my list, although I would like to find an additional slot in the main for the 3rd Sudden Shock.

I've found Clique just ok. I wouldn't call running it wrong, though.

[B88]

Thoughtseize is there because once you're in Black there's little reason not to run it and because it partially makes up for the lack of Stifle and Wasteland by giving you non-countermagic disruption. I don't think we need nearly as much maindeck removal as you're running to compete with RUG and BUG, and you have so many do-nothing spells against combo (Explosives, Deluge, Innocent Blood) that your game 1 against basically any combo deck is worse than the UR version's. I've found the BUG and RUG matchups are more than adequately improved with my list, although I would like to find an additional slot in the main for the 3rd Sudden Shock.

I've found Clique just ok. I wouldn't call running it wrong, though.

maybe....but now i'm find it very good. anyway you right, seize is huge!
i would suggest you add: 1swamp over 1sea because you can open with fetch for it and seize, and don't get wasteland against you.
and add Dig!!!!! is insane! try to cut one stand....belive me! :cool:

what is your score against bad mu like: post, lands and mud?

[twndomn]

Have you ever get Engineered Plague to stick naming Human? It feels great when DnT players shove their stupid bears into graveyard, even better when you name elves. It's just good against any Vial decks.

[B88]

Have you ever get Engineered Plague to stick naming Human? It feels great when DnT players shove their stupid bears into graveyard, even better when you name elves. It's just good against any Vial decks.


Elfes and Det are now bye because you have tons of remuvals! Like EE and toxic...they are not the problem for the deck i think... :rolleyes:

[gabelmeister]

Ever tried winning against goblins?
0 chance

[humppa]

Ever tried winning against goblins?
0 chance

If goblins would be the only bad matchup, you will win almost every tournament. Ever played against goblins last few years? I do - once.

[gabelmeister]

I played twice in 2015.
Seems it is a meta thing here but it is very hard.
So plague is definetly in my board.
Strong against every vial deck and infect

[B88]

we can't fix every MU, also a tier like miracle has a bad mu against goblin, but does it make not a tier? :laugh:

anyway like i wrote, we can run many answers against creature: perish, pyroclasm, plague ecc ecc...so that i think depend from wich main we have and the meta we will expect!

[gabelmeister]

Yeah. That is right.
Are the two PoP enough to beat those lands/12 post/Mud piles?
What is your experience?

Deck is reall strong against thr rest of the meta

[Jizz]

Pop in a Landstill deck^^. Just find room for 2-3 wasteland 1 Crucible maindeck.

You said : the tempo version doesn't have an answer to Goyf or tnn. I say it does. Look at this :

2 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
2 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CNS] Stifle
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RTR] Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize/Clique
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant


the Stifle + Wasteland package made it a tempoish version, but it hadn't a proper answer for a Tarmo or a Nemesis one they come into play

The UR Version doesn't have an answer to goyf. The grixis does. You can't play Landstill and ignore lands, or play Landstill and play blood moon/pop in your sb. Either you play stifle or you don't but you have to play wasteland.

My 2 cents

[MinosSnt]

I don't know against what you played but it seems really important to pack more than 1 Rakdos Charm in sideboard. I played last sunday in a small tournament (25 players) against some decks which have Batterskull / Sofi or other annoying artefact and we NEED to have answer.

1 Rakdos Charm and no EE seem a bit greedy... Btw I 'm note sure that we want to play crucible / wasteland. I didn't play them and I didn't need them, I prefer having more answer MD to deal with artefacts and to clear the board.

Excuse my english, I didn't use it since a long time.

[btm10]

maybe....but now i'm find it very good. anyway you right, seize is huge!
i would suggest you add: 1swamp over 1sea because you can open with fetch for it and seize, and don't get wasteland against you.
and add Dig!!!!! is insane! try to cut one stand....belive me! :cool:

what is your score against bad mu like: post, lands and mud?

I'd like to add Dig, and will probably add one for the third Snap and another over the 4th Standstill. Cutting a Sea for a Swamp is possible, but I do like having all of my colored sources make blue, so I'll have to test it.

As for matchups, I don't think 12Post is favorable anymore. Wasteland was really important, as was killing them quickly and this version lacks Wasteland and is slow. I can't imagine having a serviceable MUD matchup with my list, and I think getting Lands to 50/50 with a few tweaks (like adding Edicts for Marit Lage) should be doable. While I think this deck improves the BUG and RUG matchups, I'm less and less sure it's better than straight UR.

And for the record, UR has a plan against Goyf postboard. And it CAN kill one game 1, it just has to 2-for-1 itself.

[B88]

Pop in a Landstill deck^^. Just find room for 2-3 wasteland 1 Crucible maindeck.

You said : the tempo version doesn't have an answer to Goyf or tnn. I say it does. Look at this :

2 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
2 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CNS] Stifle
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [RTR] Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize/Clique
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant



The UR Version doesn't have an answer to goyf. The grixis does. You can't play Landstill and ignore lands, or play Landstill and play blood moon/pop in your sb. Either you play stifle or you don't but you have to play wasteland.

My 2 cents

You are not ur you add the black is not the same gp's list....anyway i don't think that 2innocent fix a problem against 4goyfs...or goose...anyway my deck is totaly different...i don't like stifle and wasteland out from canadian or TA

[Mystical_Jackass]

I feel like Grim Lavamancer would work extremely well in this deck, you drop it and follow it up with a Standstill. That'd almost guarantee they'd have to break the Standstill. Possibly DRS too... well, you get the point.

[MinosSnt]

Grim or DRS don't fit.

When you take B88's list, you're playing Toxic Deluge, EE & Innocent Blood, you never want to kill one of your creature with Innocent Blood (even if I did it sometimes by flashbacking it with SCP).

Moreovre, it's not really easy to play Delve spell & SCM, so if you add Grim or DRS it will be harder.

You should try the list before because it's really good. Your goal is to reach the late game where you can play toxic, EE, DTT or something else to make full CA. 2 Innocent Bllod with no Toxic and no EE is really not enough when you face deck like D&T or Elves even Tempo should be hard.

[B88]

Grim or DRS don't fit.

When you take B88's list, you're playing Toxic Deluge, EE & Innocent Blood, you never want to kill one of your creature with Innocent Blood (even if I did it sometimes by flashbacking it with SCP).

Moreovre, it's not really easy to play Delve spell & SCM, so if you add Grim or DRS it will be harder.

You should try the list before because it's really good. Your goal is to reach the late game where you can play toxic, EE, DTT or something else to make full CA. 2 Innocent Bllod with no Toxic and no EE is really not enough when you face deck like D&T or Elves even Tempo should be hard.

I can't explain it better! :smile:

[Jizz]

1 Rakdos Charm and no EE seem a bit greedy... Btw I 'm note sure that we want to play crucible / wasteland. I didn't play them and I didn't need them, I prefer having more answer MD to deal with artefacts and to clear the board.

Stifle + Null Rod do the trick.


You should try the list before because it's really good. Your goal is to reach the late game where you can play toxic, EE, DTT or something else to make full CA. 2 Innocent Bllod with no Toxic and no EE is really not enough when you face deck like D&T or Elves even Tempo should be hard.

Have you enough tested ? Because I see no sweepers in Lan Phan' s main deck.



.i don't like stifle and wasteland out from canadian or TA

Ok, bye :)

[B88]

Stifle + Null Rod do the trick.



Have you enough tested ? Because I see no sweepers in Lan Phan' s main deck.




Ok, bye :)

you did not explain nothing when you say: i can deal aginst goyf! 2 innocent are an aswer? You play one for one, you don't have a mass remuval...and what are you doing against nemesi when even spell snare is useless! well yes...bye!

[MinosSnt]

Stifle + Null Rod do the trick.

Have you enough tested ? Because I see no sweepers in Lan Phan' s main deck.

I was thinking about Null Rod too because it is one of my favorite SB cards in my Shardless but I run Top & EE in my MD so I have ton find something else to handle with artefacts.

I really liked the top to filter your draw and the EE. This last helped me a lot to blow some board (elfball / D&T / Shardless). I don't know how it works for Lan Phan but I'm pretty sure that he is a better player than me. When you play TT, you know that if the opponent sticks a Tarmo it will be hard for you if you don't have a Delver.. I think that it's the same here when you have to play 2 bolt to deal with one creature... Sure you have innocent blood but Tempo is not the only deck wich is running Tarmo. For Example, Shardless into strix, play tarmo go. You have Innocent Blood and Bolt in hand. You can't deal with the tarmo. With Toxic, you clear the board and then you still have the two cards to deal with something else.

I was playing 2 Toxic MD in my SHardless to (without Strx) and I was never disapointed with it.



If I have enough tested ?

Probably not, because you never test enough. But I played it during a tournament and the week before, more or less every evening, so I can give some of my feedback.

[Kyle]

Well, this deck is stupidly fun and definitely borderline degenerate.

[btm10]

Some revsions, but I think we're getting close to an optimized list

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Innocent Blood

3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Swamp


Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Innocent Blood

I feel like Deluge is overkill and that the basic Swamp is just ok. It might get cut for a third Snap or just turned into a Wasteland. Finding room for at least 2 Wastes would be great. Clique is really awesome.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I finally got to play against MUD with this list. I won 2-0, with Snap being an all-star in both games. G2 required me to answer every creature in his deck except Sundering Titan, 2 Forgemasters,1 Lodestone Golem, and Wormcoil Engine and this list handled it like a champ, even in the face of a Staff on board for 10 turns. Wasteland would definitely help there and gives us an answer to utility lands and opposing manlands (or the landman Dryad Arbor) under Standstill.

[gabelmeister]

Unfortunately lost against BUG Delver 2 times last tournament.
Can you tell me which cards you board out against it?
I feel that ever card is important against them

[B88]

It depends wich list you use, but bug delver is usualy easy mu, we have many remuvals with cc1 or zero like ee. Post side i run out fow and counterspell...and add reb and fluster...the most important thing is build a lot of mana for stay out from their tax counters!

[MinosSnt]

MD
3 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
2 S. Pierce
3 S. Snare
1 Counterspell
4 FOW
2 Dig Through TIme
3 Bolt
1 Pyroblast

2 Ponder
3 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Standstill
2 Jace 2.0

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's DIvining Top

3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Keranos

- 2 Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
- 3 Standstill

+ 2 Blood moon
+ 1 toxic deluge
+ 2 reb
+ 1 flusterstorm

This is my in and out against BUG Delver. I was playing against a Delver with confidant and stifle and 19 lands so ni HTT no liliana no tombstalker.

[gabelmeister]

Yeah. Normally it is a quite easy MU.
But it can get difficult if they always win the roll and start with a t1 delver with manadenial and counterbackup

[btm10]

Yeah. Normally it is a quite easy MU.
But it can get difficult if they always win the roll and start with a t1 delver with manadenial and counterbackup

I actually think that BUG Delver is petty close to 50/50 and that Shardless is actually even-to-unfavorable. Hymn is a real beating if they break Standstill on our endstep (and force us to discard) and then Hymn us, and Shardless can race us under Standstill with Tar Pit and their Wastelands. Really, testing the Shardless matchup has got me thinking of ways to test getting at least 3 Wastes into the deck.

[sawatarix]

Good to see a new thread for this beauty.
Thank you Claudio for writing a short primer about this deck.
We both play this deck since the beginning and we really enjoy it - Claudio in Italy and Me in Japan.

This deck crushes miracle and other control decks in general like esper blade,deathblade and jeskai stoneblade decks.
It`s ok against Tempodecks, we suffer from our weak manabase full of dual lands but if we use our cantrips wisely there shouldn't be problems at all.
Combodecks are also ok although we need a fast clock which is snapcaster mage or mishras factory.This deck provides us with a ton of countermagic so even a slower clock gets the job done.

During my last weeks i have always cashed with this deck, go try yourself.
Thats my current version, pretty similar to Claudios list obviously (we work together on this one )

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/46853

Cheers,

Kai

[B88]

I actually think that BUG Delver is petty close to 50/50 and that Shardless is actually even-to-unfavorable. Hymn is a real beating if they break Standstill on our endstep (and force us to discard) and then Hymn us, and Shardless can race us under Standstill with Tar Pit and their Wastelands. Really, testing the Shardless matchup has got me thinking of ways to test getting at least 3 Wastes into the deck.

if you run sweeper over some spot remuvals you will how good they are in that mu. pyroclasm kills all their creatures (not tarmo) even toxic is huge. :smile:

[btm10]

if you run sweeper over some spot remuvals you will how good they are in that mu. pyroclasm kills all their creatures (not tarmo) even toxic is huge. :smile:

Unless the game has reached an odd point or the Delver player is making risky plays, clasm is pretty meh against them. I'm actually MD'ing 2 Deluge (in the Clique slots from the list above). Sweepers are better against Shardless, but creature swarms aren't how they beat you. I'll post a revised list later today, but I 4-0'd RUG Delver (2-1), Miracles (2-0), UWr Mentor/Pyromancer/Dig deck (2-0), and D&T (2-1) last night. I'm fully off of Explosives because I've found that Null Rod is so good that I'd rather just rely on Deluge and Clasm as sweepers and have flexible spot removal to deal with problematic enchatments and artifacts without activated abilities.

[Klobster]

This is the list i have been running for awhile now. Gerry T wrote an article about it during the treasure cruise era but it runs fine without it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30096_Daily-Digest-Bloodghasts-Revenge.html

Pre/post cruise i was running

+1 standstill
+2 Tombstalkers

I am testing Necropolis fiend and Tasigur but i still like Tombstalker so far.

[btm10]

This is the list i have been running for awhile now. Gerry T wrote an article about it during the treasure cruise era but it runs fine without it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30096_Daily-Digest-Bloodghasts-Revenge.html

Pre/post cruise i was running

+1 standstill
+2 Tombstalkers

I am testing Necropolis fiend and Tasigur but i still like Tombstalker so far.

I think that's a really interesting list. I do think the build being discussed here would improve with the addition of creatures or some other permanent threat. I've always thought that Pyromancer was sort of a nonbo with Standstill, how have you found it? Bloodghast seems great. And how has Dack been without Cruise?

[Klobster]

I think that's a really interesting list. I do think the build being discussed here would improve with the addition of creatures or some other permanent threat. I've always thought that Pyromancer was sort of a nonbo with Standstill, how have you found it? Bloodghast seems great. And how has Dack been without Cruise?

The idea behind pyromancer is to eat swords of plowshares for your ghasts and have more non graveyard dependent threats outside your man lands. Most of the time pyro eats removal. And when he doesn't he is just good by dodging your own innocent bloods and getting multiple threats.

Dack is great all the time. Sometimes you just want to filter cards that are bad for the matchup and once people see him they are very hesitant with equipment. I've had a batterskulled up bloodghast many times.

Some things could be shaved down for some cabal therapys but I dont think you want a full play set in the main deck. Once you play the deck you get a feel for how aggressive it is and pulling to much discard slows it down.

[B88]

guys this is out of topic....totally differnt deck, i mean, 4counters???? just 4fow!!! what are you going to say to miracle, show or other combo???? :eek:

[Echelon]

guys this is out of topic....totally differnt deck, i mean, 4counters???? just 4fow!!! what are you going to say on miracle, show or other combo???? :eek:

Simple. GG! :laugh:

[btm10]

The idea behind pyromancer is to eat swords of plowshares for your ghasts and have more non graveyard dependent threats outside your man lands. Most of the time pyro eats removal. And when he doesn't he is just good by dodging your own innocent bloods and getting multiple threats.

Dack is great all the time. Sometimes you just want to filter cards that are bad for the matchup and once people see him they are very hesitant with equipment. I've had a batterskulled up bloodghast many times.

Some things could be shaved down for some cabal therapys but I dont think you want a full play set in the main deck. Once you play the deck you get a feel for how aggressive it is and pulling to much discard slows it down.

Thanks! I'll definitely be testing your list sometime soon. I may even test Tombstalker in my list this weekend. One more question though: have you considered a Dig Through Time over the 4th Standstill? In my testing Dig has been as good as or better than Standstill and complements it very nicely.


guys this is out of topic....totally differnt deck, i mean, 4counters???? just 4fow!!! what are you going to say to miracle, show or other combo???? :eek:

I can't imagine Klobster's list having anything but a hilariously favorable Miracles matchup. Its game 1 vs combo is probably a little weaker than yours (but not much) and most/all of that problem can likely be fixed out of the board.

[twndomn]

This is the list i have been running for awhile now. Gerry T wrote an article about it during the treasure cruise era but it runs fine without it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30096_Daily-Digest-Bloodghasts-Revenge.html

Pre/post cruise i was running

+1 standstill
+2 Tombstalkers

I am testing Necropolis fiend and Tasigur but i still like Tombstalker so far.

that list is interesting but it is a bit all over the place. I don't see the value of Bloodghast.

If it's RUB and it runs standstill, it belongs to this thread.

[Klobster]

@btm10 Ya dig through time does sound good, i haven't tried it yet and i think this deck could support all the delve. This deck has a lot of play room.

@twndomn Once you go bloodghast with your standstill you dont go back.

@B88 Should i make my own thread called "Klobster's Grixis cards i own"? I think this deck has many viable options based on what you are trying to beat. It does not have to be all about counterspells.

[btm10]

I just did a tiny bit of testing with Dack/Bloodghast in my list and my preliminary thoughts are:

1. Bloodghast is the tits with Standstill
2. You really want 4 'ghasts and more ways to bin them than I ran (just 2 Dack, 2 Bloodghast)
3. Bloodghast/Loam would be awesome. This might not be the right shell for it, but I see a BUG aggro Standstill list in my future.

[Klobster]

I just did a tiny bit of testing with Dack/Bloodghast in my list and my preliminary thoughts are:

1. Bloodghast is the tits with Standstill
2. You really want 4 'ghasts and more ways to bin them than I ran (just 2 Dack, 2 Bloodghast)
3. Bloodghast/Loam would be awesome. This might not be the right shell for it, but I see a BUG aggro Standstill list in my future.

With Faithless looting you get to live the dream of first turn loot ghast in yard then second turn play land (landfall trigger) into standstill.

4 ghasts has been great. I just have alot of RiP's at my local game store and had to rely on manlands and keranos to close out games which is why i am currently running 3. And i know its very tempting to go down the BuG route but man having access to lightning bolt to get haste on them has been so nice.

[B88]

@btm10 Ya dig through time does sound good, i haven't tried it yet and i think this deck could support all the delve. This deck has a lot of play room.

@twndomn Once you go bloodghast with your standstill you dont go back.

@B88 Should i make my own thread called "Klobster's Grixis cards i own"? I think this deck has many viable options based on what you are trying to beat. It does not have to be all about counterspells.


yes maybe you should....i mean that's is not about counterspells is about how could deal against those decks (combo), you don't have nothing, nothing (4fow only). Landstill is not a aggro is a control! i like when people think different but that is another deck mate! :eyebrow:

[Klobster]

yes maybe you should....i mean that's is not about counterspells is about how could deal against those decks (combo), you don't have nothing, nothing (4fow only). Landstill is not a aggro is a control! i like when people think different but that is another deck mate! :eyebrow:

I was just jokeing. My deck perfectly fits in here. The sideboard options for combo hate that are grixis are some of the best there is. This deck stops combo and you can board to never lose to combo. Having clocks are important to stopping combo as well.

[B88]

start 0-1 against any combo is far away from to be fine....also against miracle or other control how could you deal with 4counters? i mean if someone drop counterbalance is gg!

[twndomn]

start 0-1 against any combo is far away from to be fine....also against miracle or other control how could you deal with 4counters? i mean if someone drop counterbalance is gg!

I'm sorry, since you brought up Miracles. Some of its versions run 4 StP and 4 Terminus, they are completely dead cards against combos that don't involve creatures. Would you be surprised if you lose to combo game 1 because you draw the useless half of your control deck? Hence that argument is flawed.

Newsflash, man-lands are great against Miracles. Since this deck is called Landstill, one would assume your run some man-lands.

[B88]

But they don't run just 4fow!!!! They have balance and counterspell...also sometimes reb....would you be suprised if they won to combo game 1?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[btm10]

But they don't run just 4fow!!!! They have balance and counterspell...also sometimes reb....would you be suprised if they won to combo game 1?


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

In my experience Miracles' combo matchups are pretty middling since they can't really apply a fast clock. Sometimes they get early CounterTop against ANT preboard, and more often than not Terminus Elves' board, but other times they get run over before the lock comes online. And beyond CounterTop Miracles really doesn't have much to beat combo preboard. Also Standstill is a beating against combo in and of itself. Really, those are the matchups where I just windmill slam it as soon as I draw it and that approach seems to work quite well. Klobster's list is way more aggressive than mine and is probably capable of offering enough resistance game 1 to win with beats fairly often.

I unfortunately went 3-3 yesterday, losing to Dragon Stompy, Merfolk, and Jund Nic Fit and beating 12 Post, BUG Delver, and picking up a bye. The matches I lost tended to be either things that aren't favorable by default (Vial decks, Dragon Stompy) or an opponent who ran exceptionally well (my Nic Fit opponent had triple Huntmaster game 1 and double Thragtuk + Huntmaster game 2 and I flooded out both games). The 12Post matchup felt close but not bad, and BUG just felt really good overall with this configuration (I did lose game 1, but that has more to do with him drawing three Goyfs while I only drew one Innocent Blood, a Bolt, and a Snapcaster Mage as removal. Tasigur was a last minute addition and was exceptional every time I had him, nearly pulling out a game against Dragon Stompy when I was under both Blood Moon AND Chalice on 1 - I would've won handily had only one or the other been in play (first game I lost Moon came down too quickly for me to fetch enough basics). The room was a solid 30-40% Miracles and there were a handful of Blade decks as well, so I just missed all the easy prey.

I ran this list:

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Dig Through Time

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Innocent Blood
2 Toxic Deluge

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp


4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Duress

Honestly, I wouldn't change anything based on this - I don't expect to run into these matchups that frequently and each one would require different changes, so I'm not going to tune to fringe decks.

[B88]

In my experience Miracles' combo matchups are pretty middling since they can't really apply a fast clock. Sometimes they get early CounterTop against ANT preboard, and more often than not Terminus Elves' board, but other times they get run over before the lock comes online. And beyond CounterTop Miracles really doesn't have much to beat combo preboard. Also Standstill is a beating against combo in and of itself. Really, those are the matchups where I just windmill slam it as soon as I draw it and that approach seems to work quite well. Klobster's list is way more aggressive than mine and is probably capable of offering enough resistance game 1 to win with beats fairly often.

I unfortunately went 3-3 yesterday, losing to Dragon Stompy, Merfolk, and Jund Nic Fit and beating 12 Post, BUG Delver, and picking up a bye. The matches I lost tended to be either things that aren't favorable by default (Vial decks, Dragon Stompy) or an opponent who ran exceptionally well (my Nic Fit opponent had triple Huntmaster game 1 and double Thragtuk + Huntmaster game 2 and I flooded out both games). The 12Post matchup felt close but not bad, and BUG just felt really good overall with this configuration (I did lose game 1, but that has more to do with him drawing three Goyfs while I only drew one Innocent Blood, a Bolt, and a Snapcaster Mage as removal. Tasigur was a last minute addition and was exceptional every time I had him, nearly pulling out a game against Dragon Stompy when I was under both Blood Moon AND Chalice on 1 - I would've won handily had only one or the other been in play (first game I lost Moon came down too quickly for me to fetch enough basics). The room was a solid 30-40% Miracles and there were a handful of Blade decks as well, so I just missed all the easy prey.



when you are not lucky you can lose always against combo but that doesn't means that 4balance 4fow and counterspell are worst than only 4fow! but if you like it go ahead on this way :laugh:

about your list i suggest you to cut tasigur or some snapcasters, because 5delve cards are too much with snap...and tasigur is better in side when you oppo runs out their remuval in g2 because in g1 are dead cards.

[btm10]

when you are not lucky you can lose always against combo but that doesn't means that 4balance 4fow and counterspell are worst than only 4fow! but if you like it go ahead on this way :laugh:

I'm not saying I think his list is optimal - I haven't tested it yet. But it's clearly working for him, and it's not like running just 4 Force is unprecedented (Shardless is the obvious example).



about your list i suggest you to cut tasigur or some snapcasters, because 5delve cards are too much with snap...and tasigur is better in side when you oppo runs out their remuval in g2 because in g1 are dead cards.

It's really not too much. I never had to delay casting Tasigur or Dig to accomodate Snap , and I never had to Delve delve away something I wanted to use Snapcaster on. Tasigur into Standstill is fantastic. I really can't recommend him enough. And I really dislike the plan of boarding creatures in. Might someone board sorcery-speed removal out against us? Sure. But so far I've seen most folks leave spot removal like Bolt and Swords in. And I'd much rather they leave bad cards like sweepers in than board them out for things that are actually good.

[sawatarix]

The deck is busted, i won a tournament yesterday in tokio with it,beating sneak show 2:0 pox 2:0 elves 2:1 and jeskai delver 2:0

I switched to 4 innocent bloods and 3 lightning bolts, having more answers to tnn goyf tasigur and nimble mongoose is actually pretty important.
Lightning bolt takes care of the rest.

2 slaughter games were amazing yesterday because against most combodecks it is close to a oops-i-win-card.
I won't be surprised if this deck gets in the established section.
(I personally would upgrade it to DTB because it has a positive matchup against nearly every DTB right now)
Just my 2 coins

greetings.

[btm10]

The deck is busted, i won a tournament yesterday in tokio with it,beating sneak show 2:0 pox 2:0 elves 2:1 and jeskai delver 2:0

I switched to 4 innocent bloods and 3 lightning bolts, having more answers to tnn goyf tasigur and nimble mongoose is actually pretty important.
Lightning bolt takes care of the rest.

2 slaughter games were amazing yesterday because against most combodecks it is close to a oops-i-win-card.
I won't be surprised if this deck gets in the established section.
(I personally would upgrade it to DTB because it has a positive matchup against nearly every DTB right now)
Just my 2 coins

greetings.

Are you playing in GP Kyoto? And what's your current list? Also, while I agree that this deck has game against the whole DTB, it has some rough matchups against the fringe decks.

[sawatarix]

Yeah I'm already registered at GP Kyoto with 2 Byes.
You are absolutely right, this deck is strong against DTBs and has some issues with random decks like Burn or MUD.
Basically at this point this deck is very similar to Rug Delver, but once you are 3:0:0 or better you won't get paired against those decks.

[siqatzi]

I tried this deck out at a little proxy tournament yesterday - first time I'd played the deck, and first time I'd played magic in months, so I don't think I played especially well (going 1-2, beating a ~stax variant 2-0, losing to Miracles 0-1-2 and losing to ANT 1-2) but it was really fun to play. The list I played was similar to the one sawatrix posted a couple of pages back, but with a Creeping Tar Pit instead of the conclave, maindeck Wastelands, and a different sideboard including Crucible of Worlds.

I wondered what the right approach to Miracles with a Landstill deck would be? I was in control for much of the first game, resolving Standstill and Dig Through Time and then bashing away slowly with the Tar Pit while he dug for answers and I found ways to protect it. But eventually he had more Terminuses and StPs than I found counters, and then he resolved Counterbalance/Top and eventually Jace, and game. Then we went to time on game two. It seems like it's just really hard to make a threat stick for long enough against Miracles...

[B88]

I tried this deck out at a little proxy tournament yesterday - first time I'd played the deck, and first time I'd played magic in months, so I don't think I played especially well (going 1-2, beating a ~stax variant 2-0, losing to Miracles 0-1-2 and losing to ANT 1-2) but it was really fun to play. The list I played was similar to the one sawatrix posted a couple of pages back, but with a Creeping Tar Pit instead of the conclave, maindeck Wastelands, and a different sideboard including Crucible of Worlds.

I wondered what the right approach to Miracles with a Landstill deck would be? I was in control for much of the first game, resolving Standstill and Dig Through Time and then bashing away slowly with the Tar Pit while he dug for answers and I found ways to protect it. But eventually he had more Terminuses and StPs than I found counters, and then he resolved Counterbalance/Top and eventually Jace, and game. Then we went to time on game two. It seems like it's just really hard to make a threat stick for long enough against Miracles...

so well done, but play this deck is not easy, and more if you don't play magic for while....anyway me and Kai we never lose against Miracles, :eek: is like a bye! you have no pressure and you can make your plan with all time you need....the only card you have to take off is balance which you have 7counters on turn 2 for it and with fow are 11, even EE could destroy it (as angels)! you have to attack with one malands and under standstill, also jace can close easly the game....let him makes the first move and stay always open you'll see how easy is this MU for us :tongue:
let we know

[siqatzi]

so well done, but play this deck is not easy, and more if you don't play magic for while....anyway me and Kai we never lose against Miracles, :eek: is like a bye! you have no pressure and you can make your plan with all time you need....the only card you have to take off is balance which you have 7counters on turn 2 for it and with fow are 11, even EE could destroy it (as angels)! you have to attack with one malands and under standstill, also jace can close easly the game....let him makes the first move and stay always open you'll see how easy is this MU for us :tongue:
let we know

Thanks for the advice! That's really helpful. Yeah I think I let myself slip into playing the beatdown, when I should have been playing the control. I'll try and get some more tests in and let you know how it works out!

[btm10]

Thanks for the advice! That's really helpful. Yeah I think I let myself slip into playing the beatdown, when I should have been playing the control. I'll try and get some more tests in and let you know how it works out!

I basically agree with what's been said already about the matchup, but if you can get Standstill down when they don't have Top, you become the beatdown (assuming you have a Snap or manland and can hold up counters while attacking). You don't want to play Standstill if they have a Top out, because they'll have way better card selection than you, and they'll be able to break Standstill whenever they want using Entreat and will likely beat you in the counterwar. This obviously doesn't apply if you have a Jace out.

[sawatarix]

How good Sudden Shock has been in this deck !

I joined a legacy tournament yesterday at our store and finished 4:0:1 while beating maverick, death n taxes, elves, Omnitell and a draw versus miracle control.
I don't want to overhype Sudden Shock but i would have lost games against death n taxes and elves if they were lightning bolts.

Here is my current list for reference: http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/50011


Greetings, Kai

[btm10]

Any reason for Smash over Smash to Smithereens?

[sawatarix]

Any reason for Smash over Smash to Smithereens?

Drawing a card matters - 3 damage does not.

[theBloody]

How good Sudden Shock has been in this deck !

I joined a legacy tournament yesterday at our store and finished 4:0:1 while beating maverick, death n taxes, elves, Omnitell and a draw versus miracle control.
I don't want to overhype Sudden Shock but i would have lost games against death n taxes and elves if they were lightning bolts.

Here is my current list for reference: http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/50011


Greetings, Kai

I like your decklist so much, especially because of low Standstill count and 3 Digs. Why did you decided for such configuration?

[klaus]

Also Standstill is a beating against combo in and of itself. Really, those are the matchups where I just windmill slam it as soon as I draw it and that approach seems to work quite well. Klobster's list is way more aggressive than mine and is probably capable of offering enough resistance game 1 to win with beats fairly often.


I used to be a die-hard LS player (having played UWx LS as my go-to deck for years) and I can assure nothing has changed about the fact that Standstill sucks against Storm Combo - if piloted by a skilled player that is.
Why? Because you give them all the time in the world to ramp up to 6+ lands and sculpt the perfect hand, then break your SS eot, having you discard back to 7 and just smash face. Most of the time this approach will pan out for them.

[btm10]

Drawing a card matters - 3 damage does not.

I disagree with you on that, but that might be because I burn people out a lot. Also, Snapping Smash back costs 5 without a resistor in play, and I'm not down with that. I've even considered Smelt in the slot, but I have found the damage to be pretty good.

On another stylistic note, I just noticed that you're packing zero Wastelands. I can't imagine that being right.


I like your decklist so much, especially because of low Standstill count and 3 Digs. Why did you decided for such configuration?

I can't speak for sawatrix, and haven't tested the 3 Dig/2 Standstill split (I'm still running 3 Standstill/2 Dig) , but I think the general logic behind running Dig and cutting back on Standstill is two-fold. First, Standstill isn't great against Miracles if they have an active Top, and having an extra Snap-able source of CA is important. The second factor is the more important one and that is that you really need some degree of card selection and Top doesn't play well with manlands. I've had too many cracked Standstills draw three lands when I needed business to go without Digs.

[sawatarix]

@3dig and 2 standstills: When i play the deck, i dont want to slamm standstill on turn 2 or 3 most of time. I would rather trade resources with my opponent and then cast either dig or standstill on the empty board while both players have 4-5 lands in play with either manlands or snapcaster mages in play.
This is like the best spot you can possibly be with landstill in general.
Drawing to many standstills is always not what you really want to do so i cut the third one in order to make room for additional countermagic/dig.

@wasteland: i tried to fit wastelands in this deck but with 4 colourless lands (factories) and many spells which require blue mana (counterspell for example) i dont think we wanna put more nonblue lands in there.
The only land i want to destroy is grove of the burnwillows but if i get paired against punishing jund i would rather board in slaughter games to get rid of punishing fire.

@ burn instead of draw: we are not a burn deck :D

[btm10]

I used to be a die-hard LS player (having played UWx LS as my go-to deck for years) and I can assure nothing has changed about the fact that Standstill sucks against Storm Combo - if piloted by a skilled player that is.
Why? Because you give them all the time in the world to ramp up to 6+ lands and sculpt the perfect hand, then break your SS eot, having you discard back to 7 and just smash face. Most of the time this approach will pan out for them.

This is true if you are all-in on the counter plan, but windmill slamming Standstill as a follow up to Thoughtseize/Therapy or EOT Clique is fantastic against combo in general. Jamming blind Standstill against Show and Tell decks is a relatively strong line game 1 becausr they have such narrow combo pieces, though I agree that it's suboptimal against Storm.


@3dig and 2 standstills: When i play the deck, i dont want to slamm standstill on turn 2 or 3 most of time. I would rather trade resources with my opponent and then cast either dig or standstill on the empty board while both players have 4-5 lands in play with either manlands or snapcaster mages in play.
This is like the best spot you can possibly be with landstill in general.
Drawing to many standstills is always not what you really want to do so i cut the third one in order to make room for additional countermagic/dig.


I agree with this assessment. That being said, I haven't felt flooded on Standstills to the point where I want to cut one.



@wasteland: i tried to fit wastelands in this deck but with 4 colourless lands (factories) and many spells which require blue mana (counterspell for example) i dont think we wanna put more nonblue lands in there.
The only land i want to destroy is grove of the burnwillows but if i get paired against punishing jund i would rather board in slaughter games to get rid of punishing fire.

I find Wasteland invaluabe against combo, Infect, MUD, 12Post, Death and Taxes, Lands, and Delver decks. It's also huge against opposing manlands.



@ burn instead of draw: we are not a burn deck :D

Put the damage aside. It's a real upside and I've used the damage from Smash to Smithereens to win more than one game and kill more than one planeswalker, but I'll go so far as to say I'd run Shatter over Smash. That's how much the third mana matters. A huge number of artifacts that you want to answer show up in situations where your mana is taxed, and the ability to Snap back the spell for 4 instead of 5 mana is very important. The only reason the slot isn't taken by Smelt or Shattering Spree is that I want my artifact removal to answer Chalice on 1 and be an instant.

[lambert101]

What about something like the following?


4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Standstill
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
3 Toxic Deluge

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
4 Mishara's Factory


Side Board:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
3 Pyroblast
2 Graffdigger's Cage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smash to Smithereens

[Razor]

Rolling Earthquake and/or Volcanic Fallout may be useful as sweepers, especially with Bloodghasts who want opponents under 11 life.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=16229

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=55241

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=166337

They serve similar roles as Terminus, Toxic Deluge and Supreme Verdict. If green is being splashed the following cards ought to be considered: Ancient Grudge, Abrupt Decay, Pernicious Deed and Raging Ravine.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=514991

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413587

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=4692

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=171798

I do like the Academy Ruins' synergy with Engineered Explosives. They probably warrant maindeck slots.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=42292

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=27412

Crucible of Worlds and Batterskull are strong considerations.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=27388

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=267669

I've seen Intuition do some cool things by getting cards like: Crucible, Academy Ruins and Life From the Loam.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=32153

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=39164

Cards like Extirpate and Slaughter Games seem very strong; however, Surgical Extraction may be preferrable in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=44258

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=413796

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=267808

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=287644

Celestial Colonnade may be worth considering in the Jeskai builds.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=171783

[theBloody]

Reading players ideas are always good, but please use tags if you want to link card images. It is much easier to read.
Usage:

Surgical Extraction

Result: Surgical Extraction.

[B88]

What about something like the following?


4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Standstill
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
3 Toxic Deluge

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
4 Mishara's Factory


Side Board:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
3 Pyroblast
2 Graffdigger's Cage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smash to Smithereens

1) 3 toxic are too much i think....you cant lose too many life, you could replace one of them with one pyroclasm

2) And run under 3 snare would be a mistake because you need a counter for goyf and is the best counter when you run standstill

3) 4wasteland are also too many with crucible, 2or3 would be better

That are my advices :tongue:

[FoolofaTook]

What about something like the following?


4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lighting Bolt
3 Standstill
2 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
3 Toxic Deluge

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
4 Mishara's Factory


Side Board:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
3 Pyroblast
2 Graffdigger's Cage
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smash to Smithereens

The problem with lists like this is that they're slow with no big bang at the end of the day. They don't have a fast payoff for the tempo plan when that's what presents itself and they don't have enough counters to say no to everything that will kill them if it resolves.

The successful Landstill lists recently have avoided Ponder to thicken up the counters, threats and removal and to create a wider range of threats and answers in the process.

The Academy Ruins is also problematic because it's another non-blue source in the lists. 4 Mishra's, 4 Wastelands and an Academy Ruins leaves you with just 15 blue lands and staring at a 43% chance of having 1 blue land or less in your opening hand. Ponder and Brainstorm help out a true tempo list that can run off of 1 blue land forever but they don't help a Control list to get to solid ground often enough and so the 1 blue landers become really problematic. They force you to fetch for an Island against many opponents and that creates the potential for your creature removal to go missing until the game is decided. When you do fetch a Volcanic because you have to answer an early play and they waste your only blue source things get grim.

12-14 counters with at least 10 hard counters in the mix is the right number with the number and type of threats you are playing. 4 Force of Will, 3 Counterspell, 3 Spell Snare is a good place to start with additional Spell Pierces.

I went into detail only because I've played this archetype, blue-x draw-go for more than 20 years now and I've seen the pitfalls of trying to play a reactive list in metas in which the power level is very high and people will beat you on any opening that you present them. If you're going to play draw-go-no you must have the no or it's all going to fall apart too often.

[B88]

The problem with lists like this is that they're slow with no big bang at the end of the day. They don't have a fast payoff for the tempo plan when that's what presents itself and they don't have enough counters to say no to everything that will kill them if it resolves.

The successful Landstill lists recently have avoided Ponder to thicken up the counters, threats and removal and to create a wider range of threats and answers in the process.

The Academy Ruins is also problematic because it's another non-blue source in the lists. 4 Mishra's, 4 Wastelands and an Academy Ruins leaves you with just 15 blue lands and staring at a 43% chance of having 1 blue land or less in your opening hand. Ponder and Brainstorm help out a true tempo list that can run off of 1 blue land forever but they don't help a Control list to get to solid ground often enough and so the 1 blue landers become really problematic. They force you to fetch for an Island against many opponents and that creates the potential for your creature removal to go missing until the game is decided. When you do fetch a Volcanic because you have to answer an early play and they waste your only blue source things get grim.

12-14 counters with at least 10 hard counters in the mix is the right number with the number and type of threats you are playing. 4 Force of Will, 3 Counterspell, 3 Spell Snare is a good place to start with additional Spell Pierces.

I went into detail only because I've played this archetype, blue-x draw-go for more than 20 years now and I've seen the pitfalls of trying to play a reactive list in metas in which the power level is very high and people will beat you on any opening that you present them. If you're going to play draw-go-no you must have the no or it's all going to fall apart too often.

the problem for the deck are the 7cards that open in hand. i mean: open with 3remuvals and you are against combo and you have only bs for change something.

your guide lines are perfect, i agree!!! for the same reason i cutted ponders for add Sensei wich is much more better to find lands and is great under standstill, i don't know yet if 3 is the right number, maybe yes :rolleyes:
i run 10counters and i'm trying to figure out wich is the right number between spot and sweepers remuval. like miracles that plays 4/5 spots and 4sweepers

some advices?

[theBloody]

If blue count is not a problem and you are playing both Mishra's and Wasteland then Sensei's is way to go. I'm personaly playing bug variant where blue count is a problem so I'm taking Ponder.

[FoolofaTook]

the problem for the deck are the 7cards that open in hand. i mean: open with 3remuvals and you are against combo and you have only bs for change something.

your guide lines are perfect, i agree!!! for the same reason i cutted ponders for add Sensei wich is much more better to find lands and is great under standstill, i don't know yet if 3 is the right number, maybe yes :rolleyes:
i run 10counters and i'm trying to figure out wich is the right number between spot and sweepers remuval. like miracles that plays 4/5 spots and 4sweepers

some advices?

Heavy on counters, at least 6 turn 1-2 spot removals and a couple of sweepers. Scoop fast game 1 when you have to go get your sweepers out of the board because unless you're playing Terminus you're not going to beat Elves, D&T or other Control lists trying to put out a TNN often enough to play out game 1 and make game 3 a dim possibility to finish. The third case is especially true for Ur which has no good ways to interact with a resolved TNN game 1. BUG at least has a couple of Innocent Blood in the build to allow them to save game 1 against UWx Blades builds.

[pandaman]

How good Sudden Shock has been in this deck !

I joined a legacy tournament yesterday at our store and finished 4:0:1 while beating maverick, death n taxes, elves, Omnitell and a draw versus miracle control.
I don't want to overhype Sudden Shock but i would have lost games against death n taxes and elves if they were lightning bolts.

Here is my current list for reference: http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/50011


Greetings, Kai

Popping in to check on you, Kai, and how you did at GP Kyoto. Did you end up playing GrixStill? Or are you actually the Kai who made Top 8 with Storm? If you played GrixStill, would love to hear about your experience.

[sawatarix]

Yeah it's me: Kai Sawatari, who Top 4ed GP Kyoto.

Casting cheap spells is exactly what I want to do in Legacy so my Decks are Storm, Grixstill and Delver decks :)
The last 2 decks are more or less fun decks to be honest.

[pandaman]

Well, congratulations on your finish. Although I confess I'm a tad disappointed you didn't make it there with GrixStill, I understand that Storm is, in all likelihood, the strongest combo deck in the format. Enjoy your Pro Tour experience!

[Pilhas]

Been trying this version instead of BUGstill for quite some time, and I really prefer it.
My current list is
Land (23)

1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Instant (24)

4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Spell Snare
2x Thought Scour

Planeswalker (3)

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (3)
[CARDS]
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Sorcery (2)

2x Innocent Blood

Enchantment (3)

3x Standstill

Artifact (2)

2x Sensei's Divining Top



The thought scours are in testing and I still can't figure out if they are worth it or even needed.
I want to include a Crucible of Worlds and at least one Vendillion Clique somewhere so maybe I'll replace the thoughtscour with them.

I run the Toxic deluge in the sideboard and want to test a Kolaghan's Command. I also would love to include a Keranos somewhere, but I think is more cute than anything.
Any feedback is appreciated

[B88]

hi everyone!
here a little report of Ovinosping tournament here in Italy with Grixstill!

T1- Miracle (2-1)
T2- Miracle (2-0)
T3- UWR stonebalde (2-0)
T4- Miracle (1-1)
T5- Most (2-0)
T6- Miracle (1-1)
T7- Miracle (Johannes Gutbrod) (1-1) but i conceded because he probably could win that game.
T8- Uwr stoneblade (1-2)

that is the list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Dig Through Time
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Standstill
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell
3 Wasteland
1 Innocent Blood
1 Terminate
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Damnation
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge

SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

i need to find a good finisher or to be more aggressive! after this experience i want run MD Vendilion in 2/3 copies!

[gabelmeister]

Wow. So many draws against miracles.

Can you tell me how your matchup is against omnitell?

[Mackan]

I was your round 8 opponent and was actually playing miracles. I had no idea you played standstill but the manlands kind of gave it away. I suppose you had really bad draws against me since you slaughtered miracles all day :)

[B88]

I was your round 8 opponent and was actually playing miracles. I had no idea you played standstill but the manlands kind of gave it away. I suppose you had really bad draws against me since you slaughtered miracles all day :)

ahah i wasn't lucky! and i've played so badly because i was tired! :cry: :rolleyes: what was your score at the end? :smile:

anyway against onminitell we have reb md and counterspell and post side slaughter wich is: ops tap4 win the game! :tongue:

[Mackan]

ahah i wasn't lucky! and i've played so badly because i was tired! :cry: :rolleyes: what was your score at the end? :smile:

anyway against onminitell we have reb md and counterspell and post side slaughter wich is: ops tap4 win the game! :tongue:

I went 6-2 :/

[B88]

Did you reach top16? [emoji1]

Anyway from the list i posted i changed this:
-1toxic
-1dig
-1reb
+2vendilion
+1bolt

I'll see how it works! But could be get more race...i would like keep 3dig but i don't know what cut! Maybe a snap because needs the grave as dig, but i'm always happy when i see him!

[btm10]

Did you reach top16? [emoji1]

Anyway from the list i posted i changed this:
-1toxic
-1dig
-1reb
+2vendilion
+1bolt

I'll see how it works! But could be get more race...i would like keep 3dig but i don't know what cut! Maybe a snap because needs the grave as dig, but i'm always happy when i see him!

I think this deck just has too many cards with text to play three Digs and not end up with them stuck in hand more often than is desirable. Especially since Standstill pushes you toward a draw-(attack with manlands)-go style that doesn't play well with Dig. I like the two Cliques though.

[pandaman]

Awesome report

B88, how did you find Wasteland? You run three, but sawatrix runs 0. On the other hand, he runs five manlands and you only run three. Do you think Wasteland is useful enough to include over, say, a full playset of Mishra's Factory and a Faerie Conclave?

[pandaman]

ahah i wasn't lucky! and i've played so badly because i was tired! :cry: :rolleyes: what was your score at the end? :smile:

anyway against onminitell we have reb md and counterspell and post side slaughter wich is: ops tap4 win the game! :tongue:

What do you name against OmniTell with Slaughter Games? Show and Tell, I would assume?

[B88]

waste was good because help us against deck like post, mud and 20/20 combo. even against those deck like show who run boseiju, wich is a problem!
if you see the number of lands with U are the same of Kai.... 4mishara with 22lands = 2mishra 2creeping 3wasteland with 23lands. and to have more pressure i run also 2vendilion (wich replace less manlands)

yes obv with sluaghter i'll call always show! :tongue:

[pandaman]

waste was good because help us against deck like post, mud and 20/20 combo. even against those deck like show who run boseiju, wich is a problem!
if you see the number of lands with U are the same of Kai.... 4mishara with 22lands = 2mishra 2creeping 3wasteland with 23lands. and to have more pressure i run also 2vendilion (wich replace less manlands)

yes obv with sluaghter i'll call always show! :tongue:
Thanks for the explanation. Another question: why Creeping Tar Pit over Faerie Conclave? Conclave comes active faster and still has evasion. Can even block Delver and trade if necessary.

[B88]

because add black! i have, as you can see, damnation, and i like have more B sources as i can! other reason are that can't be blocked, are 3damage instead of 2, kills Jace alone.

[pandaman]

I had thought you'd say that, and I thought so too, so I wanted to make sure. I honestly can't see what this deck can lose to, beats the pants off Miracles because they don't have card draw, beats up on aggro control for the same reason, and Slaughter Games is just nasty against combo. Rakdos Charm is SO nasty v Reanimator and Elves, too.

I'll sleeve it up for next Tuesday Legacy. Honestly, I might even give it a run in vintage!/I'm on American Landstill right now, but I can see that Innocent Blood/Deluge could quite ably replace the StP/Balance I have now. And you get Sadistic Sacrament, for mega LOLs!

[Jay_Gatz]

I split a 6 round legacy swiss event at GP Atlantic City this past weekend with close to Kai's list from a few pages ago. I played against Pox, Omnitell, a friend playing a UW painter deck, UWr Miracles, Sneak/Show and then scooped to an esper deathblade player while retaining top seed going into the top 4 (it was swiss+1 cut to top4). I quickly beat miracles again in top4 and since the other top4 match took so long I decided to split to go get food.
The deck feels great against miracles especially if you can keep them off counterbalance, which isn't too hard if you know what they are on. Both show and tell matchups felt like they could use some work, I liked the theory behind slaughter games but it is way too slow and is only marginal against the sneak attack variants.
I'm going to try cutting the black and use this shell for URw, replacing the innocent bloods with swords and the slaughter games with meddling mages to start.

[B88]

Oh cool! [emoji41] well done!
But i still think that inno and swords are not the same because inno can deal with nemesi and goose (even emrakul), also toxic is a good sweeper with only one specific mana. seize/slaughter are the best against combo.
Btw try and let know! [emoji6]


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[kombatkiwi]

List advocated in a recent article by Philipp Schonegger
http://www.eternalcentral.com/a-word-on-testing-and-grand-prix-lille/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Business (38)
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Sudden Shock
3 Innocent Blood
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Standstill
3 Dig Through Time
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

Mana Sources (22)
2 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Slaughter Games


It’s only fair to say that it wasn’t me who came up with the underlying structure of this deck. It was multiple people, including me, coming to very similar results.
I guess Kai is one of these people as it's extremely close to his list at http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/50011

Differences:

The manabase:
-1 Factory
-1 Island
+2 Wasteland

The only other change to the maindeck is -1 Sudden Shock +1 Toxic Deluge

SB
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Tasigur
+1 Rakdos Charm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Red Elemental Blast

-2 Grafdigger's Cage
-1 Blue Elemental Blast
-1 Pyroclasm
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Smash

One question I have for either of these two players is for which matchups you board in the Slaughter Games?
For example you could board it in against storm and name Tendrils, is it too slow? You could get juked by Empty the Warrens, etc

[Lans89]

List advocated in a recent article by Philipp Schonegger
http://www.eternalcentral.com/a-word-on-testing-and-grand-prix-lille/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

One question I have for either of these two players is for which matchups you board in the Slaughter Games?
For example you could board it in against storm and name Tendrils, is it too slow? You could get juked by Empty the Warrens, etc

Omnitell..

[B88]

i've lost more than one game when i used sudden over bolt...because i couldn't take off creature on turn 1 and drop stand on turn 2. i would say to try both, but for me bolt is better than sudden.

about slaughter, yes, obv is against omni, but you can use it even against storm (infernal/tendril) , miracle (balance, top, angels) and lands (loam). :tongue:

[Cabs]

Can I ask what the reason was for playing Sudden Shock over Bolt? I'm guessing it's the 'uncounterable' removal for Delver and Deathrite etc. Is the 1R casting cost not too slow?

[zerzab11]

Can I ask what the reason was for playing Sudden Shock over Bolt? I'm guessing it's the 'uncounterable' removal for Delver and Deathrite etc. Is the 1R casting cost not too slow?

Other than the things you mentioned:

-bonkers vs Infect, as it enables you to trade two for one most of the time
-good vs Death & Taxes (Mother, Karakas, Flickerwisp)
-"safe" removal vs Tempo
-doesn't die to Counterbalance or Chalice

The slowness is the biggest disadvantage as B88 said. And of course it makes racing much worse: Bolt, Snap --> Bolt vs Sudden, Snap --> Sudden ;)
I like the effective and "safe" removal, that can probably make cardadvantage and break stalemates better in this deck.

[kombatkiwi]

-doesn't die to Counterbalance or Chalice


Split Second doesn't prevent triggers so it still gets countered by chalice with 2 counters or counterbalance if they're floating a 2

Unless you meant "normally chalice gets played for 1 so this won't get countered by it" and "it's hard for counterbalance to counter it because they can't activate top in response" in which case yeah.

[Cabs]

Other than the things you mentioned:

-bonkers vs Infect, as it enables you to trade two for one most of the time
-good vs Death & Taxes (Mother, Karakas, Flickerwisp)
-"safe" removal vs Tempo
-doesn't die to Counterbalance or Chalice

The slowness is the biggest disadvantage as B88 said. And of course it makes racing much worse: Bolt, Snap --> Bolt vs Sudden, Snap --> Sudden ;)
I like the effective and "safe" removal, that can probably make cardadvantage and break stalemates better in this deck.


Split Second doesn't prevent triggers so it still gets countered by chalice with 2 counters or counterbalance if they're floating a 2

Unless you meant "normally chalice gets played for 1 so this won't get countered by it" and "it's hard for counterbalance to counter it because they can't activate top in response" in which case yeah.

Thanks guys. I've played BUG Standstill a bit recently but am considering Grixis for GP Lille. Any advice you have regarding card choices and sideboard options etc would be appreciated!

[B88]

as zerzab wrote there are pro and con. for sudden. for me bolt still better because to have t1 remuval t2 stands is what often we want...even with snapcaster we just need 3 mana over 4 in case of sudden. but are choices. :tongue:

Cabs, my advice is: set the deck against control and combo for the GP. and some good sweepers for tokens like pyroclasm (pyromancer) and dread of night (mentor/DeT) :cool:

[rancOr_]

I added Sulfur Elemental as one off in the side for Mentor (Miracles postside) and DxT . It's excellent in this build.
As said it is very important to have removal against mentor/pyro. Engineered Plague is also pretty good right now..

[B88]

the best one for me is: dread of night wich can't be remuved and cost just 1 mana. :tongue:

[btm10]

News flash: Deck's still awesome.

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Dig Through Time
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Innocent Blood
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Sudden Shock

4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm

I'd like to squeeze an EE in somewhere, but space is tight. The Bolt/Sudden Shock split feels close to right. Bolt is important for being able to answer things like opposing Goyfs/Tasigurs/Anglers with Factorys, and is good for killing Planeswalkers. S.Shocks are obviously ideal against Pyromancer/Mom/SFM/DRS. I think I'd like to cut a sweeper for an Engineered Explosives, but so far this split is working.

[hofzge]

This week in our LGS we were 8 and I played a list close to the list written about by Philip Schönegger here (http://www.eternalcentral.com/a-word-on-testing-and-grand-prix-lille/):
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Innocent Blood
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Standstill
3 Dig Through Time
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Wasteland
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Slaughter Games

I went 1-1-1 losing to Grixis Control with Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy, winning against Infect and Drawing against Lands, which is a hard matchup.

During the game I did not really like the 2 Engineered Explosives and the 2 Spell Pierces. I would cut the Pierces and reduce the number of EEs.
I would always play at least 3 Snapcaster Mages, 3 Lightning Bolts (because they play nicely with the Snapcasters and combat Planeswalkers better then Sudden Shock) and 3 Dig Through Time.

Other than that I didn't like 2of Slaughter Games, as siding in 2 of a 4drop is too much. I liked the Tasigur and the Cliques to be able to side in good threats, but i felt very naked to the lands deck with only Surgical Extraction as a relevant card.

Finally these things would bring me close to the deck that Claudio Bonanni played beginning of the year (http://www.mtgq.it/feature-match-lenzi-bonanni-nebraska/) just with 3 Dig and 2 Standstill. Judgment on 2 Wasteland versus more manlands is out as both were worth their slots and both are good against other decks.

[btm10]

I went 1-1-1 losing to Grixis Control with Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy, winning against Infect and Drawing against Lands, which is a hard matchup.

During the game I did not really like the 2 Engineered Explosives and the 2 Spell Pierces. I would cut the Pierces and reduce the number of EEs.
I would always play at least 3 Snapcaster Mages, 3 Lightning Bolts (because they play nicely with the Snapcasters and combat Planeswalkers better then Sudden Shock) and 3 Dig Through Time.

Other than that I didn't like 2of Slaughter Games, as siding in 2 of a 4drop is too much. I liked the Tasigur and the Cliques to be able to side in good threats, but i felt very naked to the lands deck with only Surgical Extraction as a relevant card.

Finally these things would bring me close to the deck that Claudio Bonanni played beginning of the year (http://www.mtgq.it/feature-match-lenzi-bonanni-nebraska/) just with 3 Dig and 2 Standstill. Judgment on 2 Wasteland versus more manlands is out as both were worth their slots and both are good against other decks.

I'm with you on being unimpressed with MD Explosives, though they're fine out of the board. Pierce is great, I'd recommend testing a bit more before dumping them. I get what you're saying about Slaughter Games being slow, but it's the best weapon you have against Lands, Omnitell, Miracles, and ANT as well as bring serviceable against a bunch of fringe decks. I think the optimal removal suite is still up for debate, but I'm pretty sold on 2 Innocent Blood + some combonation of 5-7 Burn spells. I'm down to 3 Bolt/2 Sudden Shock, but that's meta dependent.

The biggest issue I see with your list is honestly the manabase - Faerie Conclave isn't great in a three color list, and Creeping Tar Pit gives you straight unblockability over Flying in addition to making U and B. And every time I've tested Baslands, its been awful. I've occasionally wanted to fetch for B/R, but the times its terrible and makes a hand/draw awkward outweigh that, at least for me.

[hofzge]

The biggest issue I see with your list is honestly the manabase - Faerie Conclave isn't great in a three color list, and Creeping Tar Pit gives you straight unblockability over Flying in addition to making U and B. And every time I've tested Baslands, its been awful. I've occasionally wanted to fetch for B/R, but the times its terrible and makes a hand/draw awkward outweigh that, at least for me.

I understand how you can say that if you play 6of Wasteland / Mishra's Factory.
The advantage of flying to block flyers and only costing 2 outweighs the unblockable clause.
The Badlands may be plain bad, that's true.


I get what you're saying about Slaughter Games being slow, but it's the best weapon you have against Lands, Omnitell, Miracles, and ANT as well as bring serviceable against a bunch of fringe decks

While this may be true against ANT and Omnitell, against Miracles it is still not really optimal and i prefer playing discard and cheap countermagic to a tapout sorcery threat against combo. And against lands the problem is not only the Life from the Loam, but not getting your 4 first lands ported and wasted.

What do you for example by default name against ANT post-board? Tendrils of Agony? Infernal Tutor? Empty the Warrens (probably not)?

against Miracles? Jace? Entreat? or the mighty Counterbalance?

against Omnitell it seems to be rather game winning, I agree.

against Lands? It's not really good against lands -> if you ever have 4 mana during your main phase against Lands you are in good shape...

I would rather play discard and disruptive threats like Clique or cheap counterspells like Flusterstorm, REB or BEB.

Here's a list with the changes I would make:

2x Faerie Conclave
1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
2x Standstill
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
3x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Pyroblast
3x Spell Snare
3x Innocent Blood
4x Ponder
1x Toxic Deluge
3x Snapcaster Mage

Sideboard (15)

1x Engineered Explosives
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroclasm
1x Rakdos Charm
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Thoughtseize
2x Vendilion Clique

[rlesko]

Go check the jeskai landstill thread :cool: . One thing I will say is if you're not playing loam, I don't like going under 3 wastelands. also how come no one is playing stifle?

[btm10]

Go check the jeskai landstill thread :cool: . One thing I will say is if you're not playing loam, I don't like going under 3 wastelands. also how come no one is playing stifle?

I'm not sure that I have anything to add to the UWr thread since I haven't played that version and don't have much interest in it. White's control options are only marginally better than Black's and Black gives us better sideboard options, especially when it comes to beating combo. A big part of the reason to not run Stifle is that the list is just jam-packed as it is and Stifle would be taking the slots of more valuable cards. I completely agree that fewer than three Wastelands are suboptimal though, and that I'd run four if I could find room.


I understand how you can say that if you play 6of Wasteland / Mishra's Factory.
The advantage of flying to block flyers and only costing 2 outweighs the unblockable clause.
The Badlands may be plain bad, that's true.


I used to agree about blocking Fliers mattering. But all relevant fliers (other than Marit Lage) die to all of our removal, and Tar Pit closes faster than Conclave AND handles relevant Planeswalkers more quickly. In a pinch, it even kills a Threshed Mongoose.



While this may be true against ANT and Omnitell, against Miracles it is still not really optimal and i prefer playing discard and cheap countermagic to a tapout sorcery threat against combo. And against lands the problem is not only the Life from the Loam, but not getting your 4 first lands ported and wasted.


Lands isn't going to have many difficult Waste+Port draws if you're playing more basics, fetch wisely, and they don't have Loam. If you stop Loam and Punishing Fire, Lands is significantly less threatening. Stopping Loam is THE key to the matchup. You'll draw out of mana denial, but they're pretty unlikely to assemble Stage/Depths or Punishing Fire/Grove in the face of your Wastelands once they don't have Loam. Surgical and Extirpate do a lot of the same things, but Slaughter Games isn't vulnerable to them cycling in response or simply not having Loam in their graveyard when you your hate. Games also isn't nearly as narrow as Surgical/Extirpate and lets you run more powerful/flexible Graveyard hate in those slots.



What do you for example by default name against ANT post-board? Tendrils of Agony? Infernal Tutor? Empty the Warrens (probably not)?

against Miracles? Jace? Entreat? or the mighty Counterbalance?

against Omnitell it seems to be rather game winning, I agree.

against Lands? It's not really good against lands -> if you ever have 4 mana during your main phase against Lands you are in good shape...

I would rather play discard and disruptive threats like Clique or cheap counterspells like Flusterstorm, REB or BEB.


Against ANT it's pretty dependent on what I've seen - if I'm totally blind, I'll name Tendrils, but obviously Clique and Thoughtseize help provide information. Empty is pretty beatable even if it resolves, assuming you've got some Factorys and Bolts. TES is more complicated as they're faster (so Slaughter Games is less effective in general) and have Burning Wish to get extra win conditions out of the board. Wish is a solid name, but not a lock.

Against Miracles it's board/hand dependent. I'll almost never name Jace because we have too many robust answers to him between our counters, Bolts, REBs, flash creatures, and manlands. Naming Entreat is essentially game-ending unless they're able to force through CB while you're tapped low, and even then they're in a bad place. In short, if you can hold up a counter, Slaughter Games naming Entreat is the strongest option, though if you're running low on counters or stretched thin on mana I can see the appeal of naming Counterbalance. Naming Entreat is likely just better though, since Top is way less threatening once they can't sculpt their hand and EOT Entreat for lethal.

I'm certainly not saying to eschew cheap interaction for Slaughter Games, but we've got plenty of dead or suboptimal cards in all of these matchups that can be removed to make room for more/better interaction.

[hofzge]

Taking your critique into account and the experiences i made how about this:
Land (22)
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Island
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
3x Wasteland

Creature (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Enchantment (2)
2x Standstill

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant (21)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
3x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
3x Spell Snare

Sorcery (7)
3x Innocent Blood
3x Ponder
1x Toxic Deluge

Artifact (2)
2x Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
1x Rakdos Charm
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique

This still does not contain Spell Pierce, but other than that I think it is a but more offensive and has Wastelands as well as the anti-combo/blue sideboard. It probably has about 1 too many removals main.
About the Creeping Tar Pit vs. Faerie Conclave I am still usure - both have their benefits, not just in 2 color lists.
Maybe we can shave a SB slot for a threat like Tasigur or Mystic Snake :cool:

[Jay_Gatz]

Tar pit doesn't really seem reliable in a deck with only 3 other black sources to me

[rlesko]

I'm not sure that I have anything to add to the UWr thread since I haven't played that version and don't have much interest in it. White's control options are only marginally better than Black's and Black gives us better sideboard options, especially when it comes to beating combo. A big part of the reason to not run Stifle is that the list is just jam-packed as it is and Stifle would be taking the slots of more valuable cards. I completely agree that fewer than three Wastelands are suboptimal though, and that I'd run four if I could find room.


I actually think white has better sideboard options, its a big reason why I went into the color - Meddling Mage, Containment Priest, and Wear // Tear are all bombs in a ton of match ups, and swords to plowshares is still the best removal in the format. But I understand if you're just not interested in the UWr version :smile:.

[hofzge]

That is good and I think to a degree true, as white is better against certain things, but white has no Thoughtseize/Slaughter games against combo and worse grave hate (remember that you only want to hate the opponents grave - RIP is also bad for you...).

Also: this thread is the Grixis thread ;)

[btm10]

Congrats, Claudio! I assume B88 is the Claudio Bonanni in the top 8 of Lille? Did you run Grixstill?

[Piceli89]

Congrats, Claudio! I assume B88 is the Claudio Bonanni in the top 8 of Lille? Did you run Grixstill?

Yes he is.I don't know about the deck though.

[MGB]

Yes he is.I don't know about the deck though.

I'm pretty sure he's on Esper Mentor Miracles...

[Piceli89]

I'm pretty sure he's on Esper Mentor Miracles...

Yes, and he also won the GP with it. :tongue:

[B88]

yes i'm the same Claudio! and i played Uwr mentor miracle or Miracle 2.0 :tongue:

[Ice1590]

Hi all! i think it's time to re-up this post ^^ soooo now dig is banned and the meta is changed, now we have the return of d&t, bug, shardless bug, miracle mentor (thanks Claudio!! xD), deathblade and on the combo way we have ant, tes, sneak ecc... so my question is without dig is this deck still viable/competitive with a specific setting?

Sry for bad english isn't my main language :)

[Jon]

Hi all! i think it's time to re-up this post ^^ soooo now dig is banned and the meta is changed, now we have the return of d&t, bug, shardless bug, miracle mentor (thanks Claudio!! xD), deathblade and on the combo way we have ant, tes, sneak ecc... so my question is without dig is this deck still viable/competitive with a specific setting?

Sry for bad english isn't my main language :)

I built a GrixisStill deck for a GPT today and it felt very underwhelming compared to UWr. Maybe my list was bad but I really didnt like the mana, threats, or removal.

[Ice1590]

so now i'm working in something like this :

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Standstill
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell
2 Wasteland
2 Innocent Blood
1 Terminate
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Swamp
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Spell Pierce
3 Ponder
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

now i'm going to test and i'll tell you the impression ;) hope other people do the same ^^

[B88]

Ehi everyone! Yes i think this deck evan without dig is strong, i mean Standstill now can makes the difference more than before! I've just finished the Ovino, when i've time i'll post my list!!!! [emoji1]


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[Ice1590]

Ehi everyone! Yes i think this deck evan without dig is strong, i mean Standstill now can makes the difference more than before! I've just finished the Ovino, when i've time i'll post my list!!!! [emoji1]


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Hey! i'm so curious of your decklist! how is gone the tournament? maybe if u have time can u make a little report? ^^

[B88]

I was quite unlucky...in 5 turns i've found 3 Mud wich is not a good mu with miracle! Anyway the list i was think about is this:

22lands
4bs
4stand
3top
4fow
2cs
1reb
3snare
3bolt
3inno
1ee.
3snap
2jace
1toxic
1pyroclasm.
1trinket
1ponder

And missing 1 slots.
I would like add 4th snapcaster or 1 Vendilion!


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[Ice1590]

nice list! just a question why trinket? only for top and ee? now i wanna try a more agressive line with less snap but with vendilion and tasigur i'll post my opinion after a few testing ;) also wanna try 1x devastation tide coz we don0t have answer for permanet and i think this fill it well

[B88]

yes is usualy just a tool/card advantage card.

we needs some finishers but with low count of creatures we have problems! :cry:

i'm playing Tasigur in SB!

Devastation is a good card here and could be great, but i don't want many remuvals, the best thing would be play 4spot and 3sweeper removals and many cantrinps to find what you need when you need as well as miracle, because if you are against combo or control you don't want removals. :rolleyes:

[Ice1590]

instead of trinket i prefer tasigur maindeck because we have another finisher (he avoid decay) and after testing devastation tide i'm love with it but only 1x it help a lot in every mu (just sided out for ant) because we don't have answer to permanet. For finisher now i've 5 manland 2 snap 1 vendilion and tasigur and the race is cool... now i'm going testing 1x maindeck pyroclasm

[btm10]

yes is usualy just a tool/card advantage card.

we needs some finishers but with low count of creatures we have problems! :cry:

i'm playing Tasigur in SB!

Devastation is a good card here and could be great, but i don't want many remuvals, the best thing would be play 4spot and 3sweeper removals and many cantrinps to find what you need when you need as well as miracle, because if you are against combo or control you don't want removals. :rolleyes:

I think Tide is good too, though I'd rather have Angler or Tombstalker over Tasigur due to the Karakas issue. I also like a singleton Diabolic Edict over the third Innocent Blood in your list. It's a better flashback target with Snapcaster in the midgame, and instant speed has saved me from more than one Sneak Attack so far.

[btm10]

Necroed as much for my own reference as anything; this is my rough draft of how to proceed. Eldrazi will be bad and potentially requires something like Blood Moon.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Swamp

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker

4 Standstill

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sudden Shock

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Diabolic Edict

[Whitefaces]

That looks great, I'll see if I get a chance to put it together and play vs some friends this weekend.

[btm10]

Thanks. Any feedback you have would be great since I won't have time to test this weekend. I think you might want another Explosives on the 75, and Sulfur Elemental or Engineered Plague might be better than Dread of Night.

[LarsLeif]

At least one Kolaghan's Command should probably make it into the MD as it both provides some CA, is great with snapcaster and is another way to deal with Chalice and equipment.

[btm10]

The very first draft did have a 1/1 main/board split of Commands but I ultimately cut them for the Pierce (which may have been incorrect) and the Crucible. My inclination would be to have a second Explosives over the MD Command still, but it might be better than Crucible out of the board.

[LarsLeif]

I think you definitely want 1 or more EEs, but KC offers so much versatility to the deck, which is valuable imo. :)

So try to fit in both! ;)