[DTK] Dragons of Tarkir spoiler thread [Archive] - Page 2

rufus

03-08-2015, 04:11 PM

It might be okay in D&T but I feel like it would be tantamount to like, Wizened Cenn at best, right - you bounce some critter and replay it, and some other thing gets the counte, but eventually you get to a point where you're only able to Bolster the guy you were bouncing (Bolster always goes to the creature you control with lowest toughness). So it may as well be a Crusade or something.

I don't think it's bad but like, it kind of warrants comparison to Evolve from RtR Block. Eventually you hit a ceiling on how far the effect will go.

Bolster doesn't target, so it could work with creatures that enter and then leave at instant speed. But that's still bad.

TsumiBand

03-08-2015, 11:41 PM

Bolster doesn't target, so it could work with creatures that enter and then leave at instant speed. But that's still bad.

I guess? Heh ohshi, Whitemane Lion is the latest investment strategy

Barook

03-08-2015, 11:52 PM

T-101

03-09-2015, 01:24 AM

Kolaghan's Command isn't bad. Decent modes on an instant. 3 is kind of expensive, but 2 would have been really good. Handy that it deals with both halves of Stoneforge. I could see this showing up from time to time.

Aggro_zombies

03-09-2015, 01:52 AM

The problem is costing BR.

...though I'm skeptical in general of Commands because history has shown that flexibility is not usually a sufficient reward for a higher mana cost (I remember getting excited about Izzet Charm and look how that panned out).

Vicar in a tutu

03-09-2015, 06:19 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/68/134/200/283/635614512459599213.png

Maybe the new commands aren't going to be all overcosted crap. Those mods seem kinda decent for an okay price.
I play Jund. This card is very versatile and definately maindeckable. Returning a goyf from the graveyard is good, discard is good, dealing two damage (killing Deathrite, Stoneforge, Bob, most elves, etc, also killing / weakening planeswalkers and providing a little bit of extra reach), destroying Batterskull, Jitte, misc affinity, MUD, U/B Tezzeret-artifact. And you can choose two modes for a total of three mana and it's an instant? Very good! Instant speed discard can certainly be quite useful. I really like this card, even though I understand that the card doesn't have a lot of homes in legacy (maybe Jund is the only realistic home for it?), so that limits the enthusiasm.

maharis

03-09-2015, 06:24 AM

Instant makes all the difference. It's a crappy Blightning, a less flexible electrolyze where you choose the card, an ok detonate. None of those cards are really legacy playable, but doing them at EOT is better.

Darkenslight

03-09-2015, 07:02 AM

Except Ringleader can be cheated into play for free, while you always have to pay for this.

Are there any game-winning combos with two 3cc or less creatures that you can set up with Congregation at Dawn?

There's the Cephalid Breakfast combo, but that is rather meh. Anything else?

Melira combo is all under 3 CC:

Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Viscera Seer
Kitchen Finks

For the infinite life version.

Gheizen64

03-09-2015, 07:44 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/68/134/200/283/635614512459599213.png

Maybe the new commands aren't going to be all overcosted crap. Those mods seem kinda decent for an okay price.

Seems just bad to me. Discard is hardly relevant, 2 damage is good but not at 3 mana, and return a creature is mmh... not sure. You could say this is a "destroy target weenie or artifact, draw a card conditionally for 1RB instant" which i'm not sure is playable, sorta like a more conditional but also situationally better electrolyze.

rufus

03-09-2015, 08:16 AM

Seems just bad to me. ...

It should be a 2-for-1 most of the time it gets cast which is fundamentally solid. IMO The question is really whether it's worth the three 3 cc is in legacy.

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 08:21 AM

It should be a 2-for-1 most of the time it gets cast which is fundamentally solid. IMO The question is really whether it's worth the three 3 cc is in legacy.

There are a lot of two-for-ones in RB. That quality does not set Kolaghan's Command apart.

It's fucking terrible.

Vicar in a tutu

03-09-2015, 08:45 AM

There are a lot of two-for-ones in RB. That quality does not set Kolaghan's Command apart.
Could you list the large amount of two-for-ones in RB that also affect the board? Blightning, for example, is a cool card, but doesn't affect the board. It's also a sorcery and not an instant.

lyracian

03-09-2015, 09:09 AM

It should be a 2-for-1 most of the time it gets cast which is fundamentally solid. IMO The question is really whether it's worth the three 3 cc is in legacy.
You get two of Shock, Smelt, Raise Dead and Skull Fracture at Instant speed; all of which are one mana spells normally. The instant speed discard is nice but the rest of the card does not seem versatile enough to be worthwhile.

Gheizen64

03-09-2015, 09:16 AM

This

Command RB
Instant
Choose two
- deal 2 damage to any target
- destroy an artifact
- exile target graveyard
- return target creature from grave to hand

Would've been borderline playable. This cost 1 more and has a useless mode.

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 09:24 AM

Could you list the large amount of two-for-ones in RB that also affect the board? Blightning, for example, is a cool card, but doesn't affect the board. It's also a sorcery and not an instant.

Could I just cite Liliana of the Veil and call it done? Because I am not going to try to copycat and adhere to random fun facts such as "this is an instant" and "it visibly impacts battlefield". It reminds me of when you watch football and they just churn random facts at you like "Tom Brady is the only quarterback who has been able to fit sixty-three jellybeans in his mouth, which is five more than linebacker Ray Louis was able to fit in his mouth back in 2008".

Who cares? It may be one of the only sources of instant speed discard, but I can't remember the last time I was really hurting for an overcosted Funeral Charm. It's 3cc and half of its modes are of exceptionally low value. There's not much more that can be said about the card.

Emo

03-09-2015, 10:02 AM

03-09-2015, 10:38 AM

IF ONLY the could have made this command cost :1: less... ARgghhhh WOTC ALWAYS decides to make one or two considerably interesting and interactive cards for all formats in each set but they inevitable efff it up by making it overcosted. This could have been BR's version of abrupt decay.

This could literally be said of thousands of cards though. Shaving :1: off the cost would actually make a ton of 3 mana cards absolutely amazing 2 mana cards. The problem is 2 is often to little and 3 is often too much. That's just the nature of it.

Vicar in a tutu

03-09-2015, 10:52 AM

Could I just cite Liliana of the Veil and call it done? Because I am not going to try to copycat and adhere to random fun facts such as "this is an instant" and "it visibly impacts battlefield". It reminds me of when you watch football and they just churn random facts at you like "Tom Brady is the only quarterback who has been able to fit sixty-three jellybeans in his mouth, which is five more than linebacker Ray Louis was able to fit in his mouth back in 2008".

Who cares? It may be one of the only sources of instant speed discard, but I can't remember the last time I was really hurting for an overcosted Funeral Charm. It's 3cc and half of its modes are of exceptionally low value. There's not much more that can be said about the card.
Liliana of the Veil is the second best planeswalker in the game, so yeah. Shockingly, I totally agree with you that Kolaghan's Command is not a better card than Liliana of the Veil. And when did a card being a sorcery or an instant qualify as "random fun facts"? Are we even playing the same game?

Fatal

03-09-2015, 11:16 AM

I actually like new 1BR command, instant speed changes everything - it can be next vendilion clique - it will always do 2 for 1, it also resolve some problem which have Jund vs Batterskull.

Ace/Homebrew

03-09-2015, 11:22 AM

And when did a card being a sorcery or an instant qualify as "random fun facts"?
I believe his point is less about the 'instantness' or 'sorceryness' of a given card and more about how being an instant or sorcery doesn't change his opinion that the card is not playable in Legacy.

I'm basing this on his football fact comparison. Knowing how many jellybeans either player can fit in their mouth is unlikely to impact the game, and is somewhat dangerous given the choking hazard.

It is also probably worth noting that if 2 cards from this set are playable in Legacy, then we as a community have been spoiled with new goodies. The bar for playability in Legacy is set very high. Let's look at Kolaghan's Command as an example. It is :b:/:r:. The higher tier legacy decks who's manabase can support this card is... Jund? What card is Jund going to be cutting for this Command?

I'm going to guess Jund players pass this card by. Modern card may be decent in Modern. :rolleyes:

Megadeus

03-09-2015, 11:31 AM

If it Duressed rather than simply funeral charm it might be good enough... Discarding their worst card is pretty meh

TsumiBand

03-09-2015, 11:38 AM

Ohhh bitch bitch behhhhch

Gorgar's Command (whatever its called, the 1BR one) is great. It is a pretty good answer to SFM and its trinket of choice. You can get back a dude that you lost early on and maybe you can live the dream of making the opponent instant-speed discard their topdeck. Hearts.

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 11:40 AM

I believe his point is less about the 'instantness' or 'sorceryness' of a given card and more about how being an instant or sorcery doesn't change his opinion that the card is not playable in Legacy.

I'm basing this on his football fact comparison. Knowing how many jellybeans either player can fit in their mouth is unlikely to impact the game, and is somewhat dangerous given the choking hazard.

thx for the translations as always, babe.

theBloody

03-09-2015, 11:42 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/displayofdominance.jpg

Does anybody want this in sb?

Ace/Homebrew

03-09-2015, 11:43 AM

thx for the translations as always, babe.
TANSTAAFL! You owe me. :cool:

tescrin

03-09-2015, 11:45 AM

Command is usable. I imagine it'd take the Maelstrom Pulse slot in Jund (it deals with Skull/Equips, it's a 2-for-1 which is nice, and it's more applicable in Combo or grindy games)

It's true it misses planeswalkers, but Walker's issue is that they're CA built in, so getting a dude, eating a card of theirs, killing a dude, or shooting a walker for 2 is significant. It's certainly decent against D&T (kills Equips, Vial, and dudes, while not being limited to any of those.)

I could see it run as much as a 3-of, possibly taking a slot or two from Hymn (easier to cast (BB is harder than RB)) and better late-game topdeck. It's good for the grind, can finish the game, and ups the removal count while not having to be removal. I wouldn't be the least surprised if it saw some play.

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 11:46 AM

TANSTAAFL!

We seriously gotta go on a date sometime.

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 11:51 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/displayofdominance.jpg

Does anybody want this in sb?

It's too overcosted to ever really be used, but that "non-creature" part is what kills the card for me.

Megadeus

03-09-2015, 12:19 PM

It kills off the two best walkers in the format. I actually think maybe the BUG Nic Fit decks maybe want it? Last time I played that deck walkers were tough to deal with on an empty board. It also "counters" abrupt decay

T-101

03-09-2015, 12:22 PM

Though the discard is being pointed to as the worst mode (which I think it frequently will be), it does have legitimate uses. Maindeck cards like Decay or Pulse can be straight dead a lot of the time. This can at least take a card from Storm or other combo decks at EoT, which is a lot better than staring at your useless Pulse.

Against Miracles I could forsee killing Top + Discard a decent amount of the time. Killing Top is usually impossible to do without going down on CA. There will also be random times where you snipe a Miracle from their hand (those dastardly topdecked Termini when you're about to kill them).

These points don't really make me think this is the next Liliana of the Veil (jellydonut), but the more I think about this card, the more it seems legit.

rufus

03-09-2015, 12:35 PM

< Display of Dominance >

Does anybody want this in sb?

You could play it with Reap and Painter's Servant :laugh:.

Which common legacy cards can it usefully interact with: Counterbalance,Liliana, Jace, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. I guess it might be good against BUG decks.

T-101

03-09-2015, 12:50 PM

You could play it with Reap and Painter's Servant :laugh:.

Which common legacy cards can it usefully interact with: Counterbalance,Liliana, Jace, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse. I guess it might be good against BUG decks.

I think the big one is Jace. I feel like most decks that could play this card are already playing Abrupt Decay, or counter spells, or both. This isn't going to take the spot of a counterspell, and the uncounterability of Decay is too much to give up just to hit Jace IMHO.

The new cycle of enemy color hosers seem good to great in Standard or Modern, but on first glance I don't see them being relevant to Legacy (with the possible exception of the white one if you're terrified of mono-red).

HdH_Cthulhu

03-09-2015, 01:28 PM

Blue or Black noncreature, isnt this far to limiting? I mean look at delver decks, mostly blue but cant hit/protect ANYTHING!

lyracian

03-09-2015, 02:07 PM

Blue or Black noncreature, isnt this far to limiting? I mean look at delver decks, mostly blue but cant hit/protect ANYTHING!
Very; the only thing that makes the card interesting as a sideboard card is the fact it has two modes. The first kills counterbalance, Jace and Lilly; the second protects a creature, like Gaddock Teeg, from Abrupt Decay, Disfigure and Chain of Vapor. That would leave Maverick or maybe a BANT deck that might want to try it.

Lemnear

03-09-2015, 02:09 PM

http://www.bigmagic.net/news/image/Hedonist's%20Trove01.png

My japanese is horrible but I think it reads like:

Hendonists Trove - 5BB

Enchantment

When Hedinists Trove comes into play, exile target opponents graveyard. You may play land cards exiled that way. You may only cast a spell exiled by Hedinists Trove once per turn

Hope a native speaker can help me out

iamajellydonut

03-09-2015, 02:59 PM

Hendonists Trove - 5BB

Enchantment

When Hedinists Trove comes into play, exile target opponents graveyard. You may play land cards exiled that way. You may only cast a spell exiled by Hedinists Trove once per turn

Hope a native speaker can help me out

God damn, I love the continued proper appropriation of the "mythic" status by Wizards.

-_-

Vicar in a tutu

03-09-2015, 04:21 PM

Gheizen64

03-09-2015, 04:24 PM

Red hoser is kept for a preview later this week. Here's hoping it's actually good. Something like:

Red Elemental Pyroblast of Chaos 1R
Instant
Choose one or more:
- counter target blue or white spell
- target player sacrifice a white or blue creature
- deal 2 damage to your opponent

Fuck you TNN!

Darkenslight

03-09-2015, 04:52 PM

I know what's a hilarious card:

Mirror Mockery :1: :u:
Enchantment - Aura (r)
Enchant creature
Whenever enchanted creature attacks, put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of that creature. Exile the copy at end of combat.

rufus

03-09-2015, 05:26 PM

Cire

03-09-2015, 05:37 PM

Wow, I totally missed that the first time around. It's got some potential for EtB ability abuse.

Considering that you'll be playing it on a creature <2cmc creature with an ETB ability and considering that the creature needs to attack . . . and considering that said creature will probably not survive the attack (if it doesn't get bolted or stped), that ETB ability will have to give you at least 2CA each time for it to be worth it. (gaining you CA when you play it. . . and CA when it clones). I don't really know if such a card exists. . .

Valtrix

03-09-2015, 05:45 PM

Looks like mono-blue has some "removal" now. Yay blockers! (I might actually be trying out the mirror in mono-U tron for Modern.)

T-101

03-09-2015, 06:01 PM

Considering that you'll be playing it on a creature <2cmc creature with an ETB ability and considering that the creature needs to attack . . . and considering that said creature will probably not survive the attack (if it doesn't get bolted or stped), that ETB ability will have to give you at least 2CA each time for it to be worth it. (gaining you CA when you play it. . . and CA when it clones). I don't really know if such a card exists. . .

The one that leaps to mind is Baleful Strix... but that's a pretty terrible best case scenario. I think this card is primarily a stop gap for Standard blue decks trying to deal with Siege Rhino.

Barook

03-09-2015, 06:09 PM

Display of Dominance is to narrow. When are you playing green without other colors?

Red offers Blasts and burn to deal with the dreaded cards, a black splash AD/Maelstrom Pulse and white gives you Council's Judgment.

@Cire: Why would one play it on a creature < 2 CMC creatures? :really: It's real value are EtB-effects, but as you said, you need to swing and get CA twice to make it worthwhile, which is rather doubtful in a format with AD as common removal.

As for people bitching about Kolaghan's Command's price, consider that it can generate +1 CA. When was the last time Wizards printed a card that could generate CA (exception: split burn that can target weenies) and cost less than 3 mana?

Cire

03-09-2015, 06:27 PM

@Cire: Why would one play it on a creature < 2 CMC creatures? :really: It's real value are EtB-effects, but as you said, you need to swing and get CA twice to make it worthwhile, which is rather doubtful in a format with AD as common removal.

Because if you play it on a creature 3> CMC or more - you are basically playing a 5CMC combo or more. Such combos must win games to be competitive. Since I doubt you can combo with this card, the only way it could have been playable if it could generate (reliably) CA for cheap.

Barook

03-09-2015, 07:06 PM

Because if you play it on a creature 3> CMC or more - you are basically playing a 5CMC combo or more. Such combos must win games to be competitive. Since I doubt you can combo with this card, the only way it could have been playable if it could generate (reliably) CA for cheap.
Flipped, hasty Delvers? Although that still doesn't seem that great, especially in the face of AD.

Valtrix

03-09-2015, 07:55 PM

The mirror doesn't generate haste mind you. It's purely a defensive card or a gain extra ETB effects on your attacks card. Honestly, putting it on your own creatures is pretty risky--any removal and you get 2-for-1'd.

Barook

03-09-2015, 08:10 PM

Reading is tech, my bad. I thought of it as attacking creature.

Ok, this card blows hard then.

rufus

03-09-2015, 08:36 PM

Flipped, hasty Delvers? Although that still doesn't seem that great, especially in the face of AD.

Barring some strange tricks, you won't be able to attack with the copy. You can enchant an opponent's creature and block though...

MD.Ghost

03-10-2015, 02:22 AM

Barring some strange tricks, you won't be able to attack with the copy. You can enchant an opponent's creature and block though...

I can see the Mirror-Tool in a BUG Pod Shell, because it is full with EtB Creatures, from Strix, Witness over Thragtusk to Grave Titan etc. - the biggest problem is deck space here and afterall Recurring Nightmare seems a better (or safer) option.

Quizzlemanizzle

03-10-2015, 06:14 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/displayofdominance.jpg

Does anybody want this in sb?

solid card

it hits

Liliana of the Veil
Jace the Mind Sculptor
Engineered Plague
Counterbalance
Chains of Mephistopheles

it protects from

Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse
Disfigure

but it is outclassed by Abrupt Decay.

Fatal

03-10-2015, 06:30 AM

SB card for BUG mirrors ;D

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 07:04 AM

Thinking about the red hoser, it could be easily be maindeckable if pushed. It'd be good against all T1 decks except elves but including D&T. My dream is control+redirect target blue-white instant for 1R. Probably too good though. Something more realistic is probably counter blue/white instant/sorcery, deal 2 to controller, which is probably borderline playable.

Lemnear

03-10-2015, 08:09 AM

Cire

03-10-2015, 09:20 AM

Uncounterable Pyroblast. Period.

Is their anything that would be playable at 1R? Because that's what the cycle costs.

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 09:27 AM

Uncounterable Pyroblast. Period.

Uncounterable Pyroblast that hit white things too? Probably too good dude, it remove basically anything in this format that isn't elves.

Also the first really good red card in a while has been printed.

Titty Orc 1R
Creature - Busty Orc
Can't be blocked except by 2 or more creatures.
Megamorph R
When Morph, exile the first card of your library. Until the end of turn, you may play that card.

http://imgur.com/lYA970Q.jpg

Basically it's, for most of the time, a 2/1 unblockable for 1R. Which is decent i'd say. Being able to get that damage in is important. But then you have megamorph off a single red, which fit so nicely into sol lands based decks. And on top of making it a 3/2 unblockable, it make you essentially draw a card. Granted, merfolk had a card that basically did this for years for 1U, but it was in a color with no shortages of such effects. This is much more flexible and the unblockability i feel is a really important ability when you consider things like unflipped delvers and DRS and mana elves.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-10-2015, 09:38 AM

Its just a 4 mana delver that lets you draw a card(not even that, maybe you already played a land or you dont have mana/targets...), so you spend 3 mana for draw a card. Or you play him without morph, than... well other colours play Sfm, Snappy, Confidant or Tarmo and the red mage this 2/1 guy... idk man!

Cire

03-10-2015, 09:43 AM

Pitiless Horde - 2B
Creature - Orc Berserker Rare
At the beginning of your upkeep loose 2 life.
Dash 2BB
5/3

ignore the dash and the draw back . . . this is a 3 mana black creature with 5 power. . . 2 of the mana is colorless. . . Black Stompy?

Echelon

03-10-2015, 09:45 AM

Basically it's, for most of the time, a 2/1 unblockable for 1R. Which is decent i'd say. Being able to get that damage in is important. But then you have megamorph off a single red, which fit so nicely into sol lands based decks. And on top of making it a 3/2 unblockable, it make you essentially draw a card. Granted, merfolk had a card that basically did this for years for 1U, but it was in a color with no shortages of such effects. This is much more flexible and the unblockability i feel is a really important ability when you consider things like unflipped delvers and DRS and mana elves.

It's a dud. It's only "unblockable" as long as you're controling the board. You could just as well play anything with a random form of evasion to have it do the same.

Pitiless Horde - 2B
Creature - Orc Berserker Rare
At the beginning of your upkeep loose 2 life.
Dash 2BB
5/3

ignore the dash and the draw back . . . this is a 3 mana black creature with 5 power. . . 2 of the mana is colorless. . . Black Stompy?

It's a 3 mana creature that dies to Bolt, blocking Delvers/TNN's and so on and does not have trample to push damage through.

rufus

03-10-2015, 09:49 AM

ignore the dash and the draw back . . . this is a 3 mana black creature with 5 power. . . 2 of the mana is colorless. . . Black Stompy?

I think creature inflation is bad enough to make that non-competitive when you can play Tasigur or even Gurmag Angler.

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 10:02 AM

It's a dud. It's only "unblockable" as long as you're controling the board. You could just as well play anything with a random form of evasion to have it do the same.

Controlling the board with a red deck? Unless you're playing against Tasigur+Tarmogoyf.dec that's pretty easy.

Cire

03-10-2015, 11:08 AM

I think creature inflation is bad enough to make that non-competitive when you can play Tasigur or even Gurmag Angler.

True - which is really why stompy decks are suffering so much

Anyway:

Another pushed green creature:

Avatar of the Resolute GG
Creature - Avatar
Reach, trample
Avatar of the Resolute enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each other creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/2

and

Doran the the enchantment

Assault Formation 1G
Enchantment
Each creature you control assigns combat damage equal to its toughness rather than its power.
G: Target creature with defender can attack this turn as though it didn't have defender.
2G: Creatures you control get +0/+1 until end of turn.

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 11:28 AM

Avatar of the Resolute GG
Creature - Avatar
Reach, trample
Avatar of the Resolute enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each other creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/2

Potential GSZ target, guys? Right?

Ace/Homebrew

03-10-2015, 11:47 AM

Potential GSZ target, guys? Right?
Nah, he doesn't etb fight. Wizards is just trying to make graft and modular relevant. :laugh:

TsumiBand

03-10-2015, 12:29 PM

Potential GSZ target, guys? Right?

Whatever man, play it in GW Judgment.dec beats. Play it with like Phantom Nomads and Centaurs and Tigers and shit. Play it with Hardened Scales and Undying Wolf and Strangleroot Geist and shit, and shit. So bitchin'. Much toughness. Very power.

BBG|Scott-Spain

03-10-2015, 12:32 PM

I have no idea what to think of this set. It's weird. Not really bad. Just weird...

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 12:36 PM

Not really bad. Just weird...

I'm pretty sure it's actually terrible.

Teveshszat

03-10-2015, 12:42 PM

Hello,

actually you have never expieriened bad card design if you think that this set is bad. Just look at the L5r cards than you maybe will reavaluate
the design of Magic.
So no this set is not bad. It is just not a powerfull as it could be and Iam petty glad about this.

T-101

03-10-2015, 12:54 PM

I think DTK is looking fine so far. 1 decent card for a deck, plus a couple possible role players, and a handful of interesting maybes for Legacy isn't bad considering we have only 102 cards so far from a big set (and that 102 includes 15 basic lands).

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 01:01 PM

So no this set is not bad. It is just not a powerfull as it could be and Iam petty glad about this.

"Power" has nothing to do with it. You can make a fun set without the next Tarmogoyf being present.

Excessive dragons. Shitty concept art. Shitty mechanics. Shitty cards. Shitty set.

Teveshszat

03-10-2015, 01:08 PM

Hello,

Excessive dragons. Shitty concept art. Shitty mechanics. Shitty cards. Shitty set.

Really you don´t like Dragons? I have no problem with them. The names of the mechanics maybe something which is off but actually what new mechanic you would prefer which is not allready there or just a new application of an old one?

All in all it is not as strong as Khans but it is not a really bad set.

Again look at the L5r design and you will change your opion about the current cards. The reason is that they are working very well on the mechanical Level which actually is the only Level from which you should discuss design. Things like execessive Dragons are only subjective opinions but not real arguments for bad design.

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 01:14 PM

Really you don´t like Dragons? I have no problem with them. The names of the mechanics maybe something which is off but actually what new mechanic you would prefer which is not allready there or just a new application of an old one?

It's not that I don't like dragons. I get that dragons have their fanboys and that they deserve their time in the sun. But the dragons aren't even being pumped out creatively.

"We need a dragon that sort of emphasizes the defensive aspects of dragons."
"LET'S MAKE IT A 12/12 WITH FIREBREATHING LIFELINK AND DOUBLESTRIKE THAT GIVES ALL YOUR CREATURES +0/+6 WHEN IT ATTACKS."
"Perfect."

I mean, there's no little dragons. There's no dragon enablers. There's no dragons that have fallen on hard times. It's just a push to see how many times they can print an overcosted fattie before people get bored.

Teveshszat

03-10-2015, 01:25 PM

Hello,

I mean, there's no little dragons. There's no dragon enablers. There's no dragons that have fallen on hard times. It's just a push to see how many times they can print an overcosted fattie before people get bored.

this is wrong. Most of the Rare Dragons actually have effects and a Power/toughness which are faire for their cost. Yes you don´t have things like Jace, Deathrite, Tarmogyf, Clique, or Jitte in this set but actually the cards we play in legacy are most of the time broken as shit.

The Cards they printed in this set actually are not broken but fair for the cost they have so I don´t see were this set is bad. It is just not as broken as some other sets. Btw if you want to see a bad set look for Homelands. ^^

HdH_Cthulhu

03-10-2015, 01:38 PM

To be fair homeland has Baron Sengir who outflavors all other vampires!

Richard Cheese

03-10-2015, 01:42 PM

Hello,

this is wrong. Most of the Rare Dragons actually have effects and a Power/toughness which are faire for their cost. Yes you don´t have things like Jace, Deathrite, Tarmogyf, Clique, or Jitte in this set but actually the cards we play in legacy are most of the time broken as shit.

The Cards they printed in this set actually are not broken but fair for the cost they have so I don´t see were this set is bad. It is just not as broken as some other sets. Btw if you want to see a bad set look for Homelands. ^^

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/hl/97.jpg

Say that to my face motherfucker!

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 01:49 PM

The Cards they printed in this set actually are not broken but fair for the cost they have so I don´t see were this set is bad. It is just not as broken as some other sets. Btw if you want to see a bad set look for Homelands. ^^

Again, powerlevel is entirely irrelevant. Literally entirely irrelevant. It's a given that sets will only have a limited amount of Eternal potential. Or even Modern potential. So, what matters most is how the set is in its own right. How well do its pieces interact? How well does it shape a standard format? How good is its limited? How good is the flavor of the set? Homelands was by no measure an amazing set either, but when played in a self-contained idiotic bubble, it was fun as shit and it looked great. Hell, it even gave us Merchant Scroll. But I have no respect for Dragons of Tarkir.

Barook

03-10-2015, 01:55 PM

The set actually looks alright so far.

Did people already forget the heap of shit that was Gatecrash - Journey into Nyx? Because that was a clusterfuck of terrible sets.

As for the Doran enchantment:

Kor Creatures + Daru Spiritualist/Task Force combo. You could also run E-Tutor to fetch the enchantment or run a tool box. Or get redunancy with Stoneforge and Shuko. Or just the good, old infinite life combo.

Tireless Tribe also hits like a truck with this in play. On the draw, you could get a T2 kill with it, T3 on the play. That kill is all-in, however, and thus most likely not worth it.

If anybody makes a deck around killing your opponent with big butts, I vote for the name "Chubby Chasers".

Cire

03-10-2015, 01:56 PM

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 01:57 PM

Did people already forget the heap of shit that was Gatecrash - Journey into Nyx? Because that was a clusterfuck of terrible sets..

Just because I didn't explicitly state that I am thoroughly discouraged by the past three years worth of sets doesn't mean I'm not.

Vicar in a tutu

03-10-2015, 02:24 PM

Again, powerlevel is entirely irrelevant. Literally entirely irrelevant. It's a given that sets will only have a limited amount of Eternal potential. Or even Modern potential. So, what matters most is how the set is in its own right. How well do its pieces interact? How well does it shape a standard format? How good is its limited? How good is the flavor of the set? Homelands was by no measure an amazing set either, but when played in a self-contained idiotic bubble, it was fun as shit and it looked great. Hell, it even gave us Merchant Scroll. But I have no respect for Dragons of Tarkir.
I agree, what matters most is how the set is in its own right. Have you drafted with the set? Sealed deck? Yeah, you mentioned standard. Have you mapped out the new standard format already? Congrats. Most of your posts, although occasionally funny to read, are typical of the kind of hyperbole here on The Source ("Set x sucks, set y is shit", etc). Wizards have proven time and time again that they, by and large (fuck ups like Mental Misstep, Avacyn Restored limited, Treasure Cruise etc. notwithstanding), deliver the kind of sets that make Magic bigger year after year. They even throw us old-timers a bone every now and then.

Barook

03-10-2015, 02:29 PM

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 03:04 PM

Set is semi decent come on. There are like 2 or 3 maybe playable red cards. That has to be a record (Zurgo, Ogre boobs, and the red hoser). Then the 3G catch two creatures is probably not good enough for legacy but still bannable in modern. GR and 1RB command are probably borderline playable in legacy too, both playable in modern. Both the planeswalkers probably deserve some testing. The megamorph 1X cycle is all decent and aggressively costed, unplayable in legacy sure (except for maybe red), but it's been a while since i saw some interesting creature that wasn't just a fatty.

Bed Decks Palyer

03-10-2015, 03:10 PM

how was homelands limited?

Guys in our lgs play that. I may ask.

...DotP....
:confused: Dioctyl terephtalate? At first I thought that it'll be some pterodactyl, but it is some chemical substance. I'm lost...

T-101

03-10-2015, 03:16 PM

I hear Giant Albatross beatdown is the way to go.

@Gheizen I don't think we have he red hoser yet.

03-10-2015, 03:17 PM

:confused: Dioctyl terephtalate? At first I thought that it'll be some pterodactyl, but it is some chemical substance. I'm lost...

Duels of the Planeswalkers (http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/duels-of-the-planeswalkers).

Bed Decks Palyer

03-10-2015, 03:23 PM

Duels of the Planeswalkers (http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/duels-of-the-planeswalkers).

:laugh:
I guess adding "mtg" or "magic" to my Google search would have had helped...
I kinda liked the many dragons, and I kinda liked the fact that there are GW ones. Otoh, dragons lost a bit of their exclusiveness, and I may understand why some people feel that there's a bit too many of them.

rufus

03-10-2015, 03:42 PM

...

As for the Doran enchantment:
....

Wasn't there a wall ramp deck a while ago with Wall of Blossoms/Wall of Omens/Wall of Mulch stuff?

Barook

03-10-2015, 03:47 PM

Wasn't there a wall ramp deck a while ago with Wall of Blossoms/Wall of Omens/Wall of Mulch stuff?
Sure, but if we're playing janky combos, I rather go for the infinite/infinite beaters than a bunch of crappy walls.

MD.Ghost

03-10-2015, 03:58 PM

new spoiler:

Rending Volley

:r:

Instant
Rending Volley can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Rending Volley deals 4 damage to target white or blue creature.

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 04:00 PM

Fuck wotc

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 04:01 PM

new spoiler:

Rending Volley

:r:

Instant
Rending Volley can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Rending Volley deals 4 damage to target white or blue creature.

What the fuck is this shit. STOP GIVING RED ONLY BURN SPELLS. Was it too hard to make instant/sorceries hoser for red? No, another fucking burn spell jesus christ. It don't even remove TNN , useful Kappa

Gheizen64

03-10-2015, 04:02 PM

I hear Giant Albatross beatdown is the way to go.

@Gheizen I don't think we have he red hoser yet.

I see an interesting cycle of hosers, so i assume red hoser is on those lines, but with the difference that white and blue are basically omnipresent in legacy so it may be actually good. OH WAIT IT'S JUST ANOTHER BURN SPELL NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

Lemnear

03-10-2015, 04:07 PM

I agree, what matters most is how the set is in its own right. Have you drafted with the set? Sealed deck? Yeah, you mentioned standard. Have you mapped out the new standard format already? Congrats. Most of your posts, although occasionally funny to read, are typical of the kind of hyperbole here on The Source ("Set x sucks, set y is shit", etc). Wizards have proven time and time again that they, by and large (fuck ups like Mental Misstep, Avacyn Restored limited, Treasure Cruise etc. notwithstanding), deliver the kind of sets that make Magic bigger year after year. They even throw us old-timers a bone every now and then.

It's not even about playables, my friend. The whole block was supposed to be designed bottom-up afaik, but the whole set offers no manacurve, no useful mechanics, no relevant interaction within clan mechanics and not even an interresting world design. This is Rise of the Eldrazi without the "lands matter" theme and the epicness of the Eldrazi itself. Why the fuck are there no Drakelings or Drakes for 1-4 mana in the fucking set but a wacking 15 fatties with a dragon creature type between 5-7 mana? Heck, if MaRo and his asskissers had build a "dragon hierachy" within each clan they never have struggled that hard. Designing 3 black fatty dragons in a single set without any relation to the clan and the clan mechanics leaves me speachless

Barook

03-10-2015, 04:14 PM

It's a cheaper, weaker Combust. Might see SB play, who knows.

It's not even about playables, my friend. The whole block was supposed to be designed bottom-up afaik, but the whole set offers no manacurve, no useful mechanics, no relevant interaction within clan mechanics and not even an interresting world design. This is Rise of the Eldrazi without the "lands matter" theme and the epicness of the Eldrazi itself. Why the fuck are there no Drakelings or Drakes for 1-4 mana in the fucking set but a wacking 15 fatties with a dragon creature type between 5-7 mana? Heck, if MaRo and his asskissers had build a "dragon hierachy" within each clan they never have struggled that hard. Designing 3 black fatty dragons in a single set without any relation to the clan and the clan mechanics leaves me speachless
It's their shitty design rule that dragons must be fat and expensive. Same with "no male angels".

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 04:19 PM

It's a cheaper, weaker Combust. Might see SB play, who knows.

I'm not too familiar with Modern. Is there anything Combust hits that this doesn't?

cartoonist

03-10-2015, 04:28 PM

I'm not too familiar with Modern. Is there anything Combust hits that this doesn't?

Siege Rhino. But most people seem to prefer other options, like Dismember. Uncounterable or not, this can't off Rhino, so I don't see it as too useful in Modern.

T-101

03-10-2015, 05:08 PM

It hits Deceiver Exarch for 1 mana, which is sweet, but it comes with a different cost.

That cost being that it doesn't hit Siege Rhino. Being that he's become a big part of the metagame, and you still see the occasional Baneslayer and Doran, I don't have high hopes for this one.

If they had added the rider of "opponents can't gain life this turn," we might have had something interesting, but nope.

Cire

03-10-2015, 05:40 PM

Sure, but if we're playing janky combos, I rather go for the infinite/infinite beaters than a bunch of crappy walls.

You telling me you don't want to play Shieldwall as a 0 mana 6/6 :tongue:

HSCK

03-10-2015, 06:15 PM

It's not even about playables, my friend. The whole block was supposed to be designed bottom-up afaik, but the whole set offers no manacurve, no useful mechanics, no relevant interaction within clan mechanics and not even an interresting world design. This is Rise of the Eldrazi without the "lands matter" theme and the epicness of the Eldrazi itself. Why the fuck are there no Drakelings or Drakes for 1-4 mana in the fucking set but a wacking 15 fatties with a dragon creature type between 5-7 mana? Heck, if MaRo and his asskissers had build a "dragon hierachy" within each clan they never have struggled that hard. Designing 3 black fatty dragons in a single set without any relation to the clan and the clan mechanics leaves me speachless

Why would they have low cost drakes and dragons or a dragon hierarchy, it doesn't fit at all for the story and block. They are spawned my magical storms which is the driving tension throughout the block.

iamajellydonut

03-10-2015, 06:31 PM

Why would they have low cost drakes and dragons or a dragon hierarchy, it doesn't fit at all for the story and block. They are spawned my magical storms which is the driving tension throughout the block.

That doesn't mean there can't be little or wounded or infirm dragons that are represented by a lower cost. It also doesn't mean they have to physically represent every fucking dragon in-game.

Humphrey

03-10-2015, 06:37 PM

Rending Volley (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/dragons-of-tarkir/24208-rending-volley) R
(http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/dragons-of-tarkir/24208-rending-volley)Instant
Rending Volley can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Rending Volley deals 4 damage to target white or blue creature.

this is interesting, uncounterable delver, sfm and more removal.

Zupponn

03-10-2015, 07:31 PM

Sure, but if we're playing janky combos, I rather go for the infinite/infinite beaters than a bunch of crappy walls.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/roe/203.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/156.jpg

Infinite Wall Combo Go!

HSCK

03-10-2015, 08:51 PM

That doesn't mean there can't be little or wounded or infirm dragons that are represented by a lower cost. It also doesn't mean they have to physically represent every fucking dragon in-game.

That's the whole point of DTK though, it's almost as if it's a part of a business' marketing plan or something.

Finn

03-10-2015, 09:32 PM

Re walls: Or you could do the exact same thing with Elves and have a deck to beat.

My bad on the walls snark. I did not realize those were old cards.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-10-2015, 09:51 PM

I dont want to break it for you guys but they are called "Defender"

Bosque

03-10-2015, 10:56 PM

No no, they're definitely called walls :)

nevilshute

03-11-2015, 03:36 AM

Walls... definitely walls. It's Wall of Air, not Defender of Air! :wink:

Scott

03-11-2015, 04:21 AM

Bed Decks Palyer

03-11-2015, 05:54 AM

I like the big GW dragon that prevents opponents from casting spells on my turn. Definitely a GSZ target in EDH as it stops quite some annoying stuff. Also, it's fat.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-11-2015, 07:05 AM

I've been thinking about Collected Company, and might some sort of Zoo deck want it? I'm thinking about what the card means for deck construction, and what it eliminates.

You want a bunch of creatures obviously, so that gives you some decks to start eliminating in green. I think decks that feature/can feature GSZ like Nic Fit and Junk don't have enough creatures, at least in their current form. Some decks like Nic Fit might also have too many creatures over 3 CMC anyway.

Elves won't want it for reasons.

You probably don't want Thalia, and even though some Maverick decks don't have Thalia, is CC really their game? CC is like Goblin Ringleader to me, and it looks more like aggro and card advantage than what Maverick is doing. And surely you'd want a fair amount of mana dorks to ramp it and 2/3 CMC creatures out, and also those bigger creatures to hit with CC. It seems powerful, but besides helping against Miracles, does it address the problems this type of deck has, and does it have a home, especially at that cost? I don't play Zoo, and is it above its curve and slow? Am I pegging it as an aggressive card, when it's for a midrange or control deck that can take its time and recharge? Hmmm.

At the very least, it should be better than Bloodbraid Elf and Domri Rade (maybe not Rade, because of its option as removal) in that Thalia-less Punishing Naya Maverick list that did well at an SCG a few weeks ago. The Teeg thing is annoying.

Could be crap too.

Yup I agree! The best hatebear with CC is imho Ethersworn Cannonist, just cast it in response to something! I think it might be good against delver.decks, because if you can actually resolve this (Ecannonist helps) you generate CA and tempo and delver.deck hates that! Against other creature decks you cast CC in their combat step for surprise blockers. Its also good vs discard decks (if they discard it early who cares) and later a powerful topdeck! Another upside is surprise creatures are good to kill planeswakers. If he taps out for Jace/lilly and you resolve this you can steal some games...

I dont know about the exact odds but finding a 4of in 6 cards (like a mulligan hand) is not thaaat bad (prolly 1/3 chance) so somtimes you can actually tutor something you want + some nice bonus! So it makes sense to try to find aven mindcensor and Flikerwisp in response to something!

But yeah its still 4cc could really be crap too who knows xD.

MaximumC

03-11-2015, 12:35 PM

Collected Company is definitely interesting eternal card No. 2 out of this set. Potentially it draws two cards and generates 6 mana if you hit two three-drops. And, it does this at instant speed. If it's going to make it anywhere, it's going to be in a format where Brainstorm, Ponder, and top give you free access to the top of your library. Note, also, that all of these cards play very nicely with Mentor... hmmm...

It's their shitty design rule that dragons must be fat and expensive. Same with "no male angels".

Colorshifted Ghost Ship says HAI

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=122481&type=card

Barook

03-11-2015, 12:43 PM

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=122481&type=card
Planar-shifted "What if"-card. Exceptions prove the rule.

It's still one of their declared design rules that MtG angels should be females. And to be perfectly honest, I don't mind a distinct lack of black stripper angels in Magic.

On other news, Duress is back:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/68/220/200/283/635616659700219893.png

I'll still stick to the Saga version, though. This one looks terrible (although nothing beats the 7th edition version).

FoolofaTook

03-11-2015, 01:15 PM

h to see how many times they can print an overcosted fattie before people get bored.

If they follow the M:tG marketing plan they will have one really good fatty dragon in the set to compare all the others too and find them lacking. Printing lots of crappy cards is the business plan at WoTC. That's what makes the few good ones really valuable. Somehow they have gotten away with this for decades now.

TsumiBand

03-11-2015, 02:07 PM

Barook

03-11-2015, 03:57 PM

http://i.imgur.com/IWFxD9l.png

If you have at least 3 power on the board, he becomes hasty himself. Bolt-proof, AD-immune, can be protected by Karakas (which synergizes with his haste).

There are probably better GSZ targets for Maverick and thus he's probably not Legacy-playable, but I think it's worth mentioning.

If they follow the M:tG marketing plan they will have one really good fatty dragon in the set to compare all the others too and find them lacking. Printing lots of crappy cards is the business plan at WoTC. That's what makes the few good ones really valuable. Somehow they have gotten away with this for decades now.
Whoever designed the Megamorph dragon cycle deserves to be beaten down with a rusty, used toilet brush.

Richard Cheese

03-11-2015, 04:04 PM

http://i.imgur.com/IWFxD9l.png

If you have at least 3 power on the board, he becomes hasty himself. Bolt-proof, AD-immune, can be protected by Karakas (which synergizes with his haste).

There are probably better GSZ targets for Maverick and thus he's probably not Legacy-playable, but I think it's worth mentioning.

Whoever designed the Megamorph dragon cycle deserves to be beaten with a rusty, used toilet brush.

This guy + Cavern + Karakas + Treetop Village = Suck it, Miracles! Just gotta sort out the 6 mana/turn thing.

rufus

03-11-2015, 04:04 PM

...
Whoever designed the Megamorph dragon cycle deserves to be beaten down with a rusty, used toilet brush.

Fixed that for you.

Barook

03-11-2015, 04:15 PM

Fixed that for you.
Megamorph itself is just a bland mechanic. The real problem is the ludicrous mechanic name. Who right in their mind thought this was a good idea? Those deserve some good ol' toilet brush beatdown, too.

This guy + Cavern + Karakas + Treetop Village = Suck it, Miracles! Just gotta sort out the 6 mana/turn thing.
Damn shame it's so expensive.

rufus

03-11-2015, 05:43 PM

Megamorph itself is just a bland mechanic. ...

It's rather clumsy that creatures get +1/+1 for megamorphing, but don't get +1/+1 if they're turned face-up some other way (like manifest). At the same time, the alternative morph abilities are templated on triggers, so they do happen in that case. ... Perhaps they tried to mitigate that by making the cards with large megamorph costs terrible.

Lemnear

03-11-2015, 05:51 PM

The Urza's Duress is probably my favorite as well, but since I dislike 'border clashes' so bloody much I tend to use the more recent like m13 printing or whatever m-set had it. I feel like I will not swap it out for this latest art. My daughter might dig it for her mono-Vampire deck. vOv

One way out:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqZ,!lwE1F83KmznBNew+VwiLw~~_35.JPG

Lemnear

03-11-2015, 06:08 PM

Just noticed the Dragon megamorph cycle ... that makes a total of fucking 20 fatty dragons!

So far the middled manacost of non-land cards is 3,76!!

Barook

03-11-2015, 06:23 PM

Duress is a lousy card for recent sets. There are a handful of targets but on the whole it is significantly less potent than it would have been even like 5 years ago. With all the hatebear shenanigans from Theros block and whatnot that's probably an obvious statement, but it bears putting out there. The Urza's Duress is probably my favorite as well, but since I dislike 'border clashes' so bloody much I tend to use the more recent like m13 printing or whatever m-set had it. I feel like I will not swap it out for this latest art. My daughter might dig it for her mono-Vampire deck. vOv
Last time I checked, there aren't any new-bordered duals (at least in Paper). How you do play Legacy then?

Just noticed the Dragon megamorph cycle ... that makes a total of fucking 20 fatty dragons!

So far the middled manacost of non-land cards is 3,76!!
As long as they provide some interesting cards, I don't mind. Limited and Timmy fodder is in every set. You can't expect alot of awesome cards in Legacy-CC range unless Tiny Leaders gains a massive boost in popularity to force Wizards catering that market.

Also, doesn't the full spoiler get released on Friday?

iamajellydonut

03-11-2015, 06:29 PM

that makes a total of fucking 20 fatty dragons!

You missed a cycle and Scion of Ugin.

Barook

03-11-2015, 06:46 PM

Actually, 25 dragons so far, plus 5 Monuments that can turn into dragons.

kirkusjones

03-11-2015, 06:50 PM

http://i.imgur.com/IWFxD9l.png

If you have at least 3 power on the board, he becomes hasty himself. Bolt-proof, AD-immune, can be protected by Karakas (which synergizes with his haste).

There are probably better GSZ targets for Maverick and thus he's probably not Legacy-playable, but I think it's worth mentioning.

Whoever designed the Megamorph dragon cycle deserves to be beaten down with a rusty, used toilet brush.

I am seriously disappointed with Surrak. He uppercuts a dragon and then only gives a creature haste? How does he not have some kind of tap: fight ability? Maybe double strike activated with ferocious? I guess that's wishful thinking, but it just seems like lazy, thoughtless design for such a badass character.

Lemnear

03-11-2015, 07:00 PM

As long as they provide some interesting cards, I don't mind. Limited and Timmy fodder is in every set. You can't expect alot of awesome cards in Legacy-CC range unless Tiny Leaders gains a massive boost in popularity to force Wizards catering that market.

Also, doesn't the full spoiler get released on Friday?

I'm talking about limited and drafts. "Land, go" for 5 turns and them slapping each other with dragons? Brilliant bottom-up designed set and awesome setbuilding

Barook

03-11-2015, 07:01 PM

I am seriously disappointed with Surrak. He uppercuts a dragon and then only gives a creature haste? How does he not have some kind of tap: fight ability? Maybe double strike activated with ferocious? I guess that's wishful thinking, but it just seems like lazy, thoughtless design for such a badass character.
I was hoping for some kind of fighting ability, too. But repeatable fighting on a decent body at a midrange cost doesn't sound like something Wizards would do, because that would be "oppressive". The closest thing we got so far has been Master of the Wild Hunt.

Zllig

03-11-2015, 07:34 PM

I am seriously disappointed with Surrak. He uppercuts a dragon and then only gives a creature haste? How does he not have some kind of tap: fight ability? Maybe double strike activated with ferocious? I guess that's wishful thinking, but it just seems like lazy, thoughtless design for such a badass character.

Because in this timeline he is a subservient bitch to the dragons, hence his flavor text. Design is in fact pretty thoughtful.

T-101

03-11-2015, 10:16 PM

Because in this timeline he is a subservient bitch to the dragons,

Except for the dragons who's faces he punches off. Just sayin'.

He is a cool card. 5 power that will frequently be hasty, and he's bolt-proof. If he lives for a turn, he can make Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf have Haste, which is nifty.

Lemnear

03-12-2015, 03:33 AM

Except for the dragons who's faces he punches off. Just sayin'.

He is a cool card. 5 power that will frequently be hasty, and he's bolt-proof. If he lives for a turn, he can make Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf have Haste, which is nifty.

I don't get you guys. As if having a total of 8 Bolt/Decay-proof power on the table without getting Terminused/comboed out is not already more than enough. The card is a win-more for Legacy purposes.

It's not that they made him a Dash creature with EtB fight-ability, which would have been awesome for green, while being a complete flavor-wise win and also within the colorpie. Missed opportunities, right WotC?

Scott

03-12-2015, 03:41 AM

We have zombie turtles

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/68/255/200/283/635617163894024597.png

In Design news, this kid got hired at WotC a little while ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

MD.Ghost

03-12-2015, 04:00 AM

It's not that they made him a Dash creature with EtB fight-ability, which would have been awesome for green, while being a complete flavor-wise win and also within the colorpie. Missed opportunities, right WotC?

Right! (even without the lovely Rhino, T2-Players can use Polukranos, World Eater over Surrak - sadly the missed the opportunities, to get him work like the flavour around his cool punch: Epic Confrontation - but his 5/4 Body isn't a match for all the Dragons, without a usefull ability...)

We see a lot of crap stuff, but some rares/mythics are still missing - also only 2 Exploit Cards so far... it seems WotC hyped the wrong stuff, a lot of useless dragons, megamorph, formidable etc....

Quizzlemanizzle

03-12-2015, 04:35 AM

Red draw spell, Commune with Lava, looks solid, upgrade over Braingeyser.

Unique effect in red too.

Aggro_zombies

03-12-2015, 04:36 AM

It's not that they made him a Dash creature with EtB fight-ability, which would have been awesome for green, while being a complete flavor-wise win and also within the colorpie. Missed opportunities, right WotC?
Dash is the red-black clan ability, so they wouldn't do that. Maybe if they revisit dash at some point in the future, though.

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/communewithlava.jpg

This card seems sweet. Not Legacy-playable sweet, but sweet nonetheless.

Mr.C

03-12-2015, 04:36 AM

Is this playable in Burn? As a 2-of, maybe?

http://www.themagictutor.com/images/stories/Articulos/AlejoZ/Preview_DTK/commune_with_lava_en.png

Lemnear

03-12-2015, 04:48 AM

Right! (even without the lovely Rhino, T2-Players can use Polukranos, World Eater over Surrak - sadly the missed the opportunities, to get him work like the flavour around his cool punch: Epic Confrontation - but his 5/4 Body isn't a match for all the Dragons, without a usefull ability...)

We see a lot of crap stuff, but some rares/mythics are still missing - also only 2 Exploit Cards so far... it seems WotC hyped the wrong stuff, a lot of useless dragons, megamorph, formidable etc....

I have no hope for Exploit after the 5 mana Demonic. I asume it will end up as a mechanic used for like 6 cards and then vanish like Fateful hour which is an AMAZING keyword if WotC would have ever given a serious try to push comeback-mechanics rather than trump-on-trump-gameplay pushing players against the wall.

In regards to Surrak, you could have given him protection from Dragons or the like. It would have not bothered me if he was only able to take down smaller dragons (aka the usual 5/5 dragons in the game) with the hypotetical EtB, so the Legendary Dragons ending up immune to him. It would have been perfectly acceptable if the mono-colored and clan-colored dragons were 4/4, 5/4 or 5/5 for a less bulky manacost to Bridge the gap between the legendary dragons and the clans footfolk.

It's totally alien to me how you can pat your own shoulder for "bottom-up" design and fail so miserably within creating a manacurve within clans, create badass dragonpunchers which can't actually touch a Dragon and create clan Dragons which have absolutely no connection to clan mechanics

Edit:

Red draw spell, Commune with Lava, looks solid, upgrade over Braingeyser.

Unique effect in red too.

Braingeyer is sorcery and not only gives you the cards for a mere turn. This is a bad Blue Suns Zenith

Is this playable in Burn? As a 2-of, maybe?

Sure. You want to play Inferno Titan as well, right?

Dash is the red-black clan ability, so they wouldn't do that. Maybe if they revisit dash at some point in the future, though.

Touché. Make him a RG Legend instead? Make a Fight-Ability based on Formidable? He's an Atarka-allied Legend after all, so even mono-green dash isn't unthinkable imo.

Bed Decks Palyer

03-12-2015, 05:01 AM

This set is very many brilliant so far. For example there's a cmc6 3/3 dragon. And it has MEGAMORPH!
:rolleyes:

Sylphnir

03-12-2015, 06:11 AM

Considering their high mana costs, most dragons in this set are surprisingly small.
Only 6 of the 26 spoiled dragons so far are likely to survive a fight with Surrak on their own.
And that's including megamorphed Stormwing Dragon and a Foe-Razer Regent that fought something else before.

Ace/Homebrew

03-12-2015, 08:13 AM

Braingeyer is sorcery and not only gives you the cards for a mere turn. This is a bad Blue Suns Zenith.
Exile the top X cards of your library. Until the end of your next turn, you may play those cards.

I'm not arguing it's playability in Legacy, just pointing out something it looks like you missed. :wink:

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 08:33 AM

lyracian

03-12-2015, 08:39 AM

Echelon

03-12-2015, 08:45 AM

Myth Realized; an enchantment that turns into a creature and gets bigger the more spells you cast. A decent control finisher; not sure it is better than Angels but could be a different direction to go in.
http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Myth-Realized_Mana-Deprived_20150312.png

Well, it's nice that it can ignore Terminus. But a control deck wouldn't want to deploy a threat until the late game, where you'll be casting less spells. In those cases, EtA is probably still a better clock.

rufus

03-12-2015, 08:45 AM

I could see the red thing being neato. It would have to be a slower combo deck more dedicated to making consistent land drops, though. Which isn't exactly something you aim to do in your standard combo.

Or something that takes advantage of the synergy with hand-droppers like Lion's Eye Diamond, Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns.

Considering that cards like Blue Sun's Zenith are already only playable in very specific decks, I don't think commune with lava has much of a chance in legacy.

GoblinZ

03-12-2015, 08:49 AM

Myth Realized; an enchantment that turns into a creature and gets bigger the more spells you cast. A decent control finisher; not sure it is better than Angels but could be a different direction to go in.
http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Myth-Realized_Mana-Deprived_20150312.png

Just getting bigger is not enough, this card need you land it down, which means card-disadvantage in the first playce, while angel can be put back with brainstorm and can be cast eot, also most time is immune to spot removal.

Also I don't think this can replace anything in Enchantress.

TsumiBand

03-12-2015, 09:05 AM

Commune with Lava is a great card. You'll be able to cast those cards until the end of your next turn, which means that this is a fine card to cast even at Sorcery speed and 'draw' into tools without implicitly losing them right away. It does not count against hand size; the cards you exile are not subject to discard; the only requirement is that you are actually able to cast them within the allotted time frame.

Also, not that it's a *huge* hurdle for Blue decks, but a double-red casting cost makes it less attractive to dedicated Blue decks.

Honestly, the fact that such a potent draw X spell exists without any :u: in the cost is exceptional. Yes yes yes, a random Blue cantrippy deck could adopt it, but it can be played in non-Blue decks with a similar degree of success. It's very encouraging to see such an effect.

EDIT: Also Black just got "Target player draws X cards and loses X life" for :x::b::b:. Everyone gets draw except stupid Blue! Plus you can kill a sucker with the Black one. Heh. Not sure if it's *as* potent as Commune with Lava but I just really like seeing 'non-forced' card draw in colors that aren't Blue. These are both on-point for the colors they're in.

Barook

03-12-2015, 09:25 AM

Just getting bigger is not enough, this card need you land it down, which means card-disadvantage in the first playce, while angel can be put back with brainstorm and can be cast eot, also most time is immune to spot removal.
This is NOT card disadvantage. This is essentially a creature (one which basically has an upkeep of :w:), and creatures are never card disadvantage.

It baffles me how some people disregard it so much. Lay it down, spam a bunch of blue cantrip bullshit, have a huge creature to smash face with. Not to mention it has permanent pump at instant speed, so even if you run out of spells lategame, you can still invest excess mana to pump it to your heart's content whenever you like it.

Echelon

03-12-2015, 09:30 AM

It baffles me how some people disregard it so much. Lay it down, spam a bunch of blue cantrip bullshit, have a huge creature to smash face with. Not to mention it has permanent pump at instant speed, so even if you run out of spells lategame, you can still invest excess mana to pump it to your heart's content whenever you like it.

It mostly comes down to opportunity cost. When a deck like Miracles chooses to drop this early, it foregoes the opportunity to drop a lockpiece/keep up mana for removal ie. advance/execute it's gameplan. And by the time the deck would want to cast it, it could probably just as well cast EtA on opponents' EoT and close the game in 2 turns.

Also, the Myth Realized doesn't have evasion/trample. So there's that.

(nameless one)

03-12-2015, 09:30 AM

Considering their high mana costs, most dragons in this set are surprisingly small.
Only 6 of the 26 spoiled dragons so far are likely to survive a fight with Surrak on their own.

They did create this card:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/137/395/635612484095563908.png

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 09:42 AM

Also, the Myth Realized doesn't have evasion/trample. So there's that.

Or hexproof or indestructible or blink or a cmc of >3.

So, basically, it dodges bolt, but gets hosed by every piece of common creature removal, random Maverick creatures, and Wear/Tear.

Wooooo...

maharis

03-12-2015, 10:56 AM

I could see the red thing being neato. It would have to be a slower combo deck more dedicated to making consistent land drops, though. Which isn't exactly something you aim to do in your standard combo.

This card strikes me as a control card. You get a bunch of cards for your next turn at their EOT. If you hit a land and one playable option it's a two-for-one. The problem is finding a control deck that doesn't have a better card-draw engine. Obviously in blue decks cantrips + the occasional SDT/Library overrule this. Jund and Junk have Sylvan Library (+Top), Bob if you want it (I still don't, but it's still pretty good).

Honestly, the thing I am thinking is some sort of Dega control/midrange deck that uses this to refuel in the mid-to-late game. You have access to a lot of cheap removal/disruption in those colors (Bolt/STP/Thoughtseize) and you can even stack your deck with Top if you want. And if you flip this off Bob it's only two life. Functionally it's like Sphinx's Revelation or USZ but in a color that doesn't get such an effect. Also gets around Spirit of the Labyinth if you want it.

I would've loved it at XR but I bet that was insanely broken in modern Pyromancer Ascension (where I believe this card really shines, you ritual-ritual-this EOT, draw more rituals, trigger your Ascensions the next turn, play Past in Flames and go nuts)

This is NOT card disadvantage. This is essentially a creature (one which basically has an upkeep of :w:), and creatures are never card disadvantage.

It baffles me how some people disregard it so much. Lay it down, spam a bunch of blue cantrip bullshit, have a huge creature to smash face with. Not to mention it has permanent pump at instant speed, so even if you run out of spells lategame, you can still invest excess mana to pump it to your heart's content whenever you like it.

UW Mentor loves this card. 4 Delver and some mix of this and Mentor (3-3 maybe?), then the rest of your deck is cantrip bullshit. You grow both high and wide, you have two T1 threats, and it can't be bolted unless you're a colossal moron. And unlike a SFM package you don't have 6 cards that don't trigger Delver or Mentor. This even triggers Mentor and itself! It might be slightly worse against Terminus than SFM but you are playing any number of cards that can combat miracles.

Sylphnir

03-12-2015, 10:59 AM

Final command spell spoiled:
[Picture] (http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/137/598/635617498023410863.png)
Dromoka's Command :g::w:
Instant (Rare)
Choose two -
- Prevent all damage target instant or sorcery spell would deal this turn.
- Target player sacrifices an enchantment.
- Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
- Target creature you control fights target creature you don't control.

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 11:03 AM

Final command spell

Well, that was a waste of a cycle.

Edit: I do still like the UW Command from a localized perspective.

Quizzlemanizzle

03-12-2015, 11:19 AM

Dega seems like a good home for Commune with Lava.

For legacy it is too slow, sure but for modern maybe, for standard certainly.

Any red tapout control deck, or burn deck, or in general deck with cheap playable active cards.

I have toyed with Dega in modern with some success (Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant, Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, Lightning Helix, Boros Charm, Lingering Souls, Gods Willing). With FRF probably add Monastery Mentor in here. Commmune with Lava would be a good finisher, getting gas like Burn to fuel Mentor/Pyromacer.

Barook

03-12-2015, 11:41 AM

Or hexproof or indestructible or blink or a cmc of >3.

So, basically, it dodges bolt, but gets hosed by every piece of common creature removal, random Maverick creatures, and Wear/Tear.

Also, the Myth Realized doesn't have evasion/trample. So there's that.
Neither has Goyf, but that never stopped it from being a thing. Just because combines well with SDT doesn't mean it's meant for Miracles. It dies to the rarely played enchantment removal, but is immune to GY hate. Edit: It also dodges sorcery speed creature removal.

Who knows, maybe it becomes a thing with Mentor.

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 11:50 AM

Neither has Goyf, but that never stopped it from being a thing. Just because combines well with SDT doesn't mean it's meant for Miracles. It dies to the rarely played enchantment removal, but is immune to GY hate. Edit: It also dodges sorcery speed creature removal.

Although I made no indication of it, I was commenting more with regards to the suggestion of "why not Miracles?!". I suppose it could work in a UWx Delver shell, but then again I've never felt hurting for yet another vaguely aggressive creature. I'll reserve a majority of judgement until it's gotten a fair testing.

HPB_Eggo

03-12-2015, 12:00 PM

Well, that was a waste of a cycle.

Edit: I do still like the UW Command from a localized perspective.

I'm pretty certain Atarka's Command is going to be a staple in Modern Burn. Definitely won't make the cut in Legacy, but it's very nearly strictly better than Skullcrack, which already sees Modern play, with the only drawbacks being its inability to kill Kor Firewalker when an opponent blocks with him (something an intelligent opponent would never do if you had mana open for Skullcrack) and the fact that you have to splash Green for it (something that most Modern Burn decks already do for Destructive Revelry out of the SB).

Outside of that, can agree, most of the Commands are pretty meh.

Quizzlemanizzle

03-12-2015, 12:50 PM

3 of the 5 commands are pretty good..

RG - seems legacy playable even if it might not be the best route to go for Burn, I'd still call the card playable.
UW - not as good as cryptic but still very good. In the right deck (powerful 2 drops) this card can be better and more splashable than Cryptic, especially if you play against creature heavy meta. Modern playable
BR - this command is underrated, definitely modern playable I think, all modes on the card are decent and have applications. It allows artifact removal in the main without getting useless if your opponent does not have artifacts.

Cire

03-12-2015, 01:04 PM

Probably rightfully ignored but this caught my eye

Icefall Regent 3UU
Creature - Dragon
Flying
When Icefall Regent enters the battlefield, tap target creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's uptanp step for as long as you control Icefall Regent.
Spells your opponents cast that target Icefall Regent cost 2 more to cast.
4/3

5 mana for 4 power with flying, pseudo removal and pseudo hexproof

tescrin

03-12-2015, 01:36 PM

Myth also gets killed by Revoker, Reclamation Sage, made useless by Flickerwisp, and such.

That said, I could see it having potential. It allows you to keep a strong threat on the board while leaving your mana up for Miracles, it allows you to Toxic Deluge while swinging with a huge threat, and it allows and it doesn't overextend you into Deluge/Terminus/Cataclysm, which are all good attributes to have. It's definitely a control card over a beater-card. It's going to be irrelevant until you've already established control, but once you have it's difficult to remove (outside of decay) if you're in blue/black.

I'll probably try it out and I imagine Miracles may pick up a couple copies since people decaying this isn't a big deal (you have CB to decay.) Non creature opens the door for enchantress to take advantage of a tutorable beater that costs little mana while helping build your card-draw and such.

maharis

03-12-2015, 01:39 PM

Turn 1 Myth Realized, turn 2 Standstill seems pretty brutal too. This is definitely the card that fits most comfortably into a current Legacy deck.

The GW command is interesting. It has a little utility: breaks Goyf stalls, hits counterbalance/sneak attack/sulfuric vortex, lets you use your DRS/SFM to kill theirs, beats Price of Progress/Fireblast. But doesn't do anything against Delver of Secrets, Tendrils of Agony or Show and Tell, so probably unplayable.

Probably rightfully ignored but this caught my eye

Icefall Regent 3UU
Creature - Dragon
Flying
When Icefall Regent enters the battlefield, tap target creature an opponent controls. That creature doesn't untap during its controller's uptanp step for as long as you control Icefall Regent.
Spells your opponents cast that target Icefall Regent cost 2 more to cast.
4/3

5 mana for 4 power with flying, pseudo removal and pseudo hexproof

Unfortunately the best-case scenario for this card is a Sea Stompy top end...

Barook

03-12-2015, 01:47 PM

But doesn't do anything against Delver of Secrets
But it can kill Delvers. :eyebrow: If it can kill them profitable, now that depends on your creature.

The dragon is too expensive for Legacy, considering it can even die to Bolt. :2: isn't an issue if your threat costs 5 mana.

GenghisTom

03-12-2015, 02:59 PM

Myth Realized does not go into a Miracles shell. Miracles is already air-tight as far as win-con options. They have CounterTop and then they have Terminus and Entreat, the rest is filler.

Myth Realized fits better into a Landstill shell alongside man lands, Standstill, and Supreme Verdict. It will regularly be >= 4/4 by the time the pilot activates it for one mana. Much faster clock than than what a landstill deck usually represents. Could be interesting to test there.

Removal should never be brought up unless we're talking about what removal spells don't affect it. Goyf dies to AD, Delver dies to bolt, everything dies to StP. We already know this.

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 03:26 PM

Removal should never be brought up unless we're talking about what removal spells don't affect it. Goyf dies to AD, Delver dies to bolt, everything dies to StP. We already know this.

But being able to die to Golgari Charm and Reclamation Sage is pretty significant. I will bring those cards in as often as possible for value. Especially if someone were to try and shove it into a current Jetski Delver build, I would be so fucking thrilled. It's always a tempting option to bring in Golgari Charm for any True-Name Nemesis that are run and unflipped Delvers, but too often it gets risky when their Delver flips before you have mana or they don't have the TNN count you thought they did or they Bolt your dude while you don't have mana open and you get swamped with now useless Golgari Charms. Want to give me free enchantments that I can throw more Golgari Charms at?! Pretty sweet deal.

Cire

03-12-2015, 03:46 PM

The dragon is too expensive for Legacy, considering it can even die to Bolt. :2: isn't an issue if your threat costs 5 mana.

Yeah I figured. As maharis stated this can only maybe end up in blue stompy, but even then it's probably a bad option. Shame - it's one of the few cards I liked in this set.

Quizzlemanizzle

03-12-2015, 04:05 PM

Delver is a better 1 mana win con than Myth so..

iamajellydonut

03-12-2015, 04:27 PM

Shame - it's one of the few cards I liked in this set.

Yeah, I really liked Frost Titan, so I was kinda sad when I realized it wouldn't work out, too.

nedleeds

03-12-2015, 04:31 PM

I am seriously disappointed with Surrak. He uppercuts a dragon and then only gives a creature haste? How does he not have some kind of tap: fight ability? Maybe double strike activated with ferocious? I guess that's wishful thinking, but it just seems like lazy, thoughtless design for such a badass character.

At least give him 5 toughness so he can attack into Tasigur and Siege Rhino in Modern. He's a shit pile as is.

nedleeds

03-12-2015, 04:35 PM

Myth Realized; an enchantment that turns into a creature and gets bigger the more spells you cast. A decent control finisher; not sure it is better than Angels but could be a different direction to go in.
http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Myth-Realized_Mana-Deprived_20150312.png

U/w Standstill. Unlike a white 2/1 creature it's unlikely your on the draw opponent has removal for this in response to your Standstill on your second turn. Pretty terrible mid game card, but 4 x Brainstorm, etc..

aluisiocsantos

03-12-2015, 04:40 PM

Maybe it's an option for GW Enchantress?

Tammit67

03-12-2015, 04:44 PM

Maybe it's an option for GW Enchantress?

Oh baby. I can't wait to tap like 12 mana off serra's sanctum to fuel this dude, though it not getting through moat is annoying

aluisiocsantos

03-12-2015, 04:53 PM

The card looks powerful in the right decks imo, considering it never loses the counters. Hell, even miracles could abuse it, since terminus won't affect it.

nedleeds

03-12-2015, 05:02 PM

Maybe it's an option for GW Enchantress?

There are already 14 other things I want to do on my first turn. When I am ready to cast a card that wins the game in Enchantress I'll have ample mana and at that point Sigil, Words or Giant are superior.

Tammit67

03-12-2015, 05:14 PM

There are already 14 other things I want to do on my first turn. When I am ready to cast a card that wins the game in Enchantress I'll have ample mana and at that point Sigil, Words or Giant are superior.

No no no, you are supposed to hype cards in this thread! Hype!

aluisiocsantos

03-12-2015, 05:16 PM

There are already 14 other things I want to do on my first turn. When I am ready to cast a card that wins the game in Enchantress I'll have ample mana and at that point Sigil, Words or Giant are superior.

Snif! Let's go everyone to Hearthstone, where actual good cards are being spoiled

Valtrix

03-12-2015, 06:10 PM

Myth would be much better if we had a Trinket Mage for enchantments. Since this is a decent enchantment win-con, I might experiment with it in a heavy enchantment modern deck. Kruphix's Insight just looks so sweet.

Asthereal

03-13-2015, 05:18 AM

Myth Realized; an enchantment that turns into a creature and gets bigger the more spells you cast. A decent control finisher; not sure it is better than Angels but could be a different direction to go in.
http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Myth-Realized_Mana-Deprived_20150312.png
I was wondering about this dude. So I cast him. I play a bunch of spells, and at some point I decide to smack face with him. I activate him. He becomes a guy. I attack. He taps. He does damage. At end of turn he stops being a creature. Is he now a tapped enchantment? Enchantments don't tap, ever. But can they be tapped? How does the game handle this?

Echelon

03-13-2015, 05:23 AM

The game handles this by turning it sideways, lol. Enchantments can tap, just look at Aphetto Grifter. It normally just doesn't matter if they are or not.

testing32

03-13-2015, 07:19 AM

Quizzlemanizzle

03-13-2015, 07:25 AM

I think you guys are really under rating how good Myth Realized is.

When he comes down early he is immune to every common removal spell except AD. The threat of him activating makes it hard to tap out. In a high velocity tempo deck he can get big fast and you can check to make sure it's safe to activate w/probe. He could easily be a 5/5+ on turn 3 which is a serious clock.

??
As soon as you activate Myth it can be bolted, yeah you can play around that by not activating until 4 counter but it can be killed by Swords to Plowshares, Dismember or Terminate too.

Really with Myth you gain immunity to sorcery speed removal (non-existent almost in legacy except in Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood or Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge but only if you do not need to block) while increasing vulnerability to enchantment kill effects (Reclamation Sage) and bounce effects.

Don't get me wrong Myth is good but not as good as Delver. So maybe if you are UWR Delver and want more 1 drops than just 4 Delver.

Of course Myth somehow needs to get through Tarmogoyf/TNN on the ground and can be chumped by tokens.

testing32

03-13-2015, 08:32 AM

??
Really with Myth you gain immunity to sorcery speed removal (non-existent almost in legacy except in Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood or Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge but only if you do not need to block) while increasing vulnerability to enchantment kill effects (Reclamation Sage) and bounce effects.

You also gain immunity from Jace and Liliana. The biggest advantage is gaining the ability to decide when creature removal can be used on it. Pick a spot where they have 1 open and you have a daze, they tap out for something, you wait for a bit and then thoughtseize the plow, etc. Being able to dictate when the fight happens is a big advantage. I think the advantages outweigh the weakness to enchantment removal which isn't that common.

Barook

03-13-2015, 08:42 AM

??
As soon as you activate Myth it can be bolted, yeah you can play around that by not activating until 4 counter but it can be killed by Swords to Plowshares, Dismember or Terminate too.

Really with Myth you gain immunity to sorcery speed removal (non-existent almost in legacy except in Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood or Maelstrom Pulse, Toxic Deluge but only if you do not need to block) while increasing vulnerability to enchantment kill effects (Reclamation Sage) and bounce effects.
Dismember? Terminate? Really? :really:

Liliana of the Veil and JMS are both popular planeswalkers that use sorcery speed removal, so I can't agree with sorcery speed being irrelevant.

Sage and Pridemage are valid concerns, but the number of decks that play them is small (Elves for Sage, Maverick & Sylvan Plug for both). And nobody runs MD bounce effects.

Sterling Grove would also have a field day with that card due to protecting it (it even triggers it!), but I'm not convinced that it would be better than already existing Enchantress wincons.

maharis

03-13-2015, 10:01 AM

Any deck playing Myth is going to overload removal or be able to protect it.

I don't think it's worse than Monastery Mentor, and that's been played. They also work insanely well together. The Delver-Myth-Mentor shell sounds obnoxious.

You can play it into Standstill or Counterbalance, Enchantress has Sterling Grove. I've even considered playing it in some sort of DGA shell. Myth into Hymn into Lili discarding Souls sounds pretty good. Nice Abrupt Decay...

Prowess is a riduculous mechanic for Legacy, we should be glad they didn't print anything much more powerful than Swiftspear, Mentor or Myth. (well, I guess Jeskai Ascendancy, but...)

Echelon

03-13-2015, 10:03 AM

Prowess is a riduculous mechanic for Legacy, we should be glad they didn't print anything much more powerful than Swiftspear, Mentor or Myth. (well, I guess Jeskai Ascendancy, but...)

Prowess is Storm-on-a-stick, lol.

HSCK

03-13-2015, 11:05 AM

Does anyone else think Secure the Wastes is really strong for other formats? Not sure if it's better than Decree for Legacy (which sees no play).

Cire

03-13-2015, 11:10 AM

Full set out.

Living Lore looks somewhat interesting?

3U
Creature -
When ~ etb exile instant or sorcery from your graveyard. P/T equal to that cards CMC.
When ~ deals combat damage to a player - you may sac it and cast that spell without paying its mana cost
X/X

Other random cards which probably are not good enough but might be fun:

Secure the wastes XW
Instant
Put X 1/1 tokens into play

(This actually looks pretty decent)

Silmugar sorcerer 1UU
Creature-
Flying
Flash
Exploit
When it exploits counter target creature spell
2/1

(Bad counterspell - bad blocker - bad creature. . . . but all that in one card :rolleyes:)

Obscuring Aether G
Enchantment
Facedown creature spells costs 1 less to cast
1G: turn ~ face down.

(Morph deck? Megamorph deck :rolleyes:)

....

and that's it

maharis

03-13-2015, 11:16 AM

Hello.

http://i.imgur.com/u1PCSZt.png

maharis

03-13-2015, 11:19 AM

<3

http://i.imgur.com/0Z2NjHY.png

Keep in mind I've already cast Lingering Souls in this example.

maharis

03-13-2015, 11:23 AM

Does anyone else think Secure the Wastes is really strong for other formats? Not sure if it's better than Decree for Legacy (which sees no play).

Whoops, didn't see this.

I think it's better than Decree. In any deck that's not producing some ridiculous amount of mana and thus has better use of it than Decree, being able to get shitty Lingering Souls at instant speed is probably better than 2W to draw a card + 1 for each creature you want. And obviously 4WW for an Angel token is not happening. This is as simple as you terminus me on my turn, untap, tap out for Jace, I drop in 2-3 guys in response and force a move.

maharis

03-13-2015, 11:31 AM

Looks like my dream of Bant Bolster is dead, oh well.

Full set out.

Living Lore looks somewhat interesting?

3U
Creature -
When ~ etb exile instant or sorcery from your graveyard. P/T equal to that cards CMC.
When ~ deals combat damage to a player - you may sac it and cast that spell without paying its mana cost
X/X

Careful Study
Time Stretch

lol?

QQQ

03-13-2015, 12:35 PM

Mastery, Myth, and now this? Ya think Wizards is trying to push White? I mean, Myth and Secure are both Legacy playable. I can't imagine how broken they will be in Standard, Where Mastery alone is dominating currently.

Cire

03-13-2015, 01:12 PM

Careful Study
Time Stretch

lol?

Again not- saying the card is any good - but if you are going to build around it, you probably want spell with more impact than time stretch. Enter the Infinite is probably the best bet. . . But either way still seems like a lot of work for a 3U 12/12 that has "if this deals combat damage you may win the game instead" . . . which is hilarious.

TsumiBand

03-13-2015, 01:21 PM

Hello.

http://i.imgur.com/u1PCSZt.png

This almost kind of makes up for Waylay maintaining its god-awful Substance functional errata. I'd rather get 6 power for 3 mana but I guess double Shared Triumph will take care of that!

It's probably one of the more potent non-Storm non-Miracle token spells in a long long time. Everything comparable is Sorcery speed; Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession are probably strictly more potent on a mana-to-effect ratio but at Instant speed this is worth a closer look.

I'm not certain there's an immediate home for this card in Legacy, but it's quite appealing nonetheless.

FoolofaTook

03-13-2015, 01:49 PM

I was wondering about this dude. So I cast him. I play a bunch of spells, and at some point I decide to smack face with him. I activate him. He becomes a guy. I attack. He taps. He does damage. At end of turn he stops being a creature. Is he now a tapped enchantment? Enchantments don't tap, ever. But can they be tapped? How does the game handle this?

Enchantments have tapped since Future Sight: Second Wind.

iamajellydonut

03-13-2015, 01:56 PM

<3

http://i.imgur.com/0Z2NjHY.png

This card makes me all kinds of excited.

FoolofaTook

03-13-2015, 01:59 PM

Sterling Grove would also have a field day with that card due to protecting it (it even triggers it!), but I'm not convinced that it would be better than already existing Enchantress wincons.

It's a beat face card for Bant Enchantress with Energy Field, Rest in Peace, Counterbalance, Sterling Grove, etc. Sensei's Divining Top works in the list also because it has pseudo-shroud. Put a Helm of Obedience in as an alternate win-con and then go with the usual blue suspects to make it all come together and keep combo from going off in the first few cards.

The only thing the list has been missing is a fast beater. That was the big weakness that made it a not tier list.

Finn

03-13-2015, 02:00 PM

Enchantments have tapped since Future Sight: Second Wind.
Apocalypse...Fire//Ice is probably the first. How does this site's bbcode autocard split cards?

FoolofaTook

03-13-2015, 02:06 PM

Apocalypse...Fire//Ice is probably the first. How does this site's bbcode autocard split cards?

I think Future Sight had the first enchantments that actually tapped to do something as part of their ability. Could be wrong on that. Witch's Mist is the other one in that set that specifically taps to cause an effect.

I focused in kind of heavily on that set because it was my first set back after nearly a decade away from the game. NY Times story about Flash Hulk brought me back. That has to have been the best advertising WotC has ever gotten for MtG.

Finn

03-13-2015, 02:09 PM

I think Future Sight had the first enchantments that actually tapped to do something as part of their ability. Could be wrong on that. Witch's Mist is the other one in that set that specifically taps to cause an effect.

I focused in kind of heavily on that set because it was my first set back after nearly a decade away from the game. NY Times story about Flash Hulk brought me back. That has to have been the best advertising WotC has ever gotten for MtG.

I'm pretty sure you are correct, actually. How do I autocard splits though?!

Wait, the NY Times did an article on Hulk Flash?

FoolofaTook

03-13-2015, 02:14 PM

I'm pretty sure you are correct, actually. How do I autocard splits though?!

Wait, the NY Times did an article on Hulk Flash?

Fire // Ice? For splits? First card name {space}//{space} Second card name

Yeah, the Times did an article in their On Games section about this absurd combo that was going off on turn 2 or 3 every game. I read the article and got intrigued about Magic again since the power levels seemed to have come back to the appropriate levels for somebody who wanted to play a Wizard instead of an Animal Husbandry specialist breeding fast goats, sturdy goats and huge goats.

Barook

03-13-2015, 02:50 PM

I'm not certain there's an immediate home for this card in Legacy, but it's quite appealing nonetheless.
Instant speed is nice and all, but what deck wants to run it?

I just don't see the appeal yet.

somethingdotdotdot

03-13-2015, 04:05 PM

I could see secure in the sideboard of decks like miracles or uwr blade. Since liliana is such a pain, you can basically counter her with this one card for about 3-4 mana. On another note, myth realized looks pretty insane. Its basically swiftspear #5-6 in a URw super aggro delver shell that has much more lasting power.

TsumiBand

03-13-2015, 05:10 PM

Instant speed is nice and all, but what deck wants to run it?

I just don't see the appeal yet.

That's... I thought I just said that, only with a positive spin. :(

Maybe I evaluate cards in a strange way; an appealing effect on a card (either because it's new, groundbreaking, potent, sexy, undercosted, alcohol, or whatever other capricious attraction it invokes) is what makes a card stand out to me personally, as opposed to its explicitly needing a deck that would naturally adopt it.

I'm not sure where it would land; my first thought would be BW Tokens but is that even a deck? If it is, isn't it pretty much just Spirit Token tribal? If that's true, then everyone knows Warriors and Spirits doesn't like each other. Also that deck, if it's a deck, needs to play broken cards like Devouring Greed and Shining Shoal and Spiritual Visit and clearly because Warriors are not Arcane, BW Tokens is no place for a mighty warrior.

I think that's pretty sound.

Barook

03-13-2015, 05:37 PM

The main problem I see with the card is generating enough mana to make it worthwhile. Maybe with enough pump (like Honor of the Pure, Intangible Virtue and the likes, or even Dark Triumph), but even then, other cards just outmatch it in the low-midrange CC.

Why not just run a bunch of token generators and loads of other noncreature spells, making Monastery Mentor the only "real" creature card in the deck, getting triggered by everything else? Throw in Myth Realized for good measure.

rufus

03-13-2015, 09:40 PM

Does Qal Sisma Behemoth work in dragon stompy?

Will dredge decks play Tormenting Voice?

Bobmans

03-14-2015, 05:57 AM

Again i feel like another set has gone to waste. Every booster you would buy is a reducement of value in money spend, regardless of what you pull out of it.

Hopo

03-14-2015, 07:41 AM

Again i feel like another set has gone to waste. Every booster you would buy is a reducement of value in money spend, regardless of what you pull out of it.

You have somewhat sad relationship with the game if all you care about is the financial value of you booster packs. There is a reason the game is not called Magic: The getting rich by just opening booster packs-ening.

Bobmans

03-14-2015, 07:53 AM

You have somewhat sad relationship with the game if all you care about is the financial value of you booster packs. There is a reason the game is not called Magic: The getting rich by just opening booster packs-ening.
Well, it would be nice to buy boosters just for the fun of opening them and pulling some cool cards out of it. Sets like Return to Ravinca where fun enough to buy.
The way i collect cards, trade and sell them is focussed on subjective value and not to gain money out of it. It costs me a lot more then i gain. But thats what a hobby is about. It disappoints me that getting boosters is not exciting at all and the only value is to get Standard staples out of it or just Draft it. But then again, that is good enough from WotC standpoint. That is where to money lies. It does not lie in value for eternal enthoussiasts like me. Where are sets like Legacy Masters or Vintage Masters at?? Although Vintage Masters would be idiotic anyway, so perhaps Eternal Masters to cover both.

FoolofaTook

03-14-2015, 08:29 AM

You have somewhat sad relationship with the game if all you care about is the financial value of you booster packs. There is a reason the game is not called Magic: The getting rich by just opening booster packs-ening.

Boosters generally blow chunks, which is why Draft exists. WotC has made a wonderful market out of selling pure crap for 20 years now. That's quite an accomplishment. Marketing at it's highest peak.

How do you get people to really appreciate the odd nugget of gold they pull? Sell them tons of sand they have to sift through to find it.

M+1

03-14-2015, 08:45 AM

HdH_Cthulhu

03-14-2015, 09:03 AM

There are a few interesting cards for Legacy, and the rest of the set is useless (un)limited waste of paper. That is how it always is, and how it should be.

Except for the waste of cardboard, which is bad. I never understood why drafters can't just repack their cards in homemade boosters, and use them again.

Thats called cube, and its awesome! Why all the limited hate? Limited is like the best format ever! Im not gonna explain why draft/seald is tha best!

mishima_kazuya

03-14-2015, 09:45 AM

Finn

03-14-2015, 10:08 AM

Limited magic is probably the most skill intensive format, which makes it a great competitive format. I am pretty sure we'll never have another pro tour that does not freature draft as half the tournament

There are all kinds of skills involved in Magic. Different formats exercise different sets. I have played limited formats of all stripes from Cube to Rochester. The skills that drafting calls for is just not as fun for me as the process of spark, research, test, tweak, test, tweak, perfection.

FoolofaTook

03-14-2015, 10:25 AM

There are all kinds of skills involved in Magic. Different formats exercise different sets. I have played limited formats of all stripes from Cube to Rochester. The skills that drafting calls for is just not as fun for me as the process of spark, research, test, tweak, test, tweak, perfection.

The problem with Draft/Sealed is that it adds yet another random element to a game that is adrift in random elements as it is. Losing to a power card that is extraordinarily above the power level available in the average pack is just not fun.

I did really well in a couple of sealed KTK events because I had the skill and brilliant ability to pull a High Sentinels of Arashin in one event and a Sorin, Solemn Visitor in another. The ability to actually craft a superior list from a random set of cards is based largely on what you randomly pull.

In draft it basically comes down to how many playable creatures you get in 2 colors and whether you have any removal to go along with them. There's no skill involved in picking the correct curve of creatures if they're available to you. There's no skill involved in losing when you only get 10 playable creatures passed to you in the draft and no good removal. It's random.

HPB_Eggo

03-14-2015, 01:21 PM

The problem with Draft/Sealed is that it adds yet another random element to a game that is adrift in random elements as it is. Losing to a power card that is extraordinarily above the power level available in the average pack is just not fun.

I did really well in a couple of sealed KTK events because I had the skill and brilliant ability to pull a High Sentinels of Arashin in one event and a Sorin, Solemn Visitor in another. The ability to actually craft a superior list from a random set of cards is based largely on what you randomly pull.

In draft it basically comes down to how many playable creatures you get in 2 colors and whether you have any removal to go along with them. There's no skill involved in picking the correct curve of creatures if they're available to you. There's no skill involved in losing when you only get 10 playable creatures passed to you in the draft and no good removal. It's random.

Just like in Poker, there's no skill involved in what cards you get? You get what you get, it's all random. No way to win when other people's card are better than mine.

Just like in Legacy, there's no skill involved in the cards you draw? You just get what you get. Nothing you can do when you have to mull to five every game.

\s

Draft and Sealed are obviously very skill-intensive formats. You have to know what to draft, when to draft it, how to keep track of every card you look at it in every pack, how to determine what other people are drafting and whether or not you are better off switching colors, and a whole lot of other stuff. All of that on top of the fact that you have to play well to move forward. This is reflected in the fact that people who don't draft regularly never get to day two in a Grand Prix. It's a skill game. Is there some random stuff related to the game? Sure. Doesn't make it any less skill-oriented, overall.

FoolofaTook

03-14-2015, 03:33 PM

Just like in Poker, there's no skill involved in what cards you get? You get what you get, it's all random. No way to win when other people's card are better than mine.

Just like in Legacy, there's no skill involved in the cards you draw? You just get what you get. Nothing you can do when you have to mull to five every game.

\s

Draft and Sealed are obviously very skill-intensive formats. You have to know what to draft, when to draft it, how to keep track of every card you look at it in every pack, how to determine what other people are drafting and whether or not you are better off switching colors, and a whole lot of other stuff. All of that on top of the fact that you have to play well to move forward. This is reflected in the fact that people who don't draft regularly never get to day two in a Grand Prix. It's a skill game. Is there some random stuff related to the game? Sure. Doesn't make it any less skill-oriented, overall.

If it was mostly skill you would have 2 or 3 players who were clearly leaps and bounds ahead of the field and who won almost every competition they were in except when they happened to run into each other.

Garry Kasparov is an example of what happens in a skill-based competition.

Even Draft is a 50/50 thing with random chance playing as much of a part as skill level.

That's not saying that bad players don't lose many more games than they should. Just that random chance is a huge part of the overall competition. Which is why the 2 or 3 best players in the world are absolutely capable of scrubbing out in day one of a two day competition now and then. They just didn't catch the breaks or a few people got wildly lucky against them.

wcm8

03-14-2015, 10:31 PM

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2015, 01:59 AM

http://i62.tinypic.com/v453i8.jpg

Lord Seth

03-16-2015, 02:38 AM

Just like in Poker, there's no skill involved in what cards you get? You get what you get, it's all random. No way to win when other people's card are better than mine.Actually... that's not quite true. Indeed, Poker is a game where you can--theoretically--get a losing hand every game and still win. For example, if you can bluff your opponent into thinking you have a good enough hand, you can still win with a bad one. This is one area where Poker allows for more skill, because you aren't forced to go all in on every hand, whereas you basically have to do that with Magic.

Conversely, though, there's a lot more decisions and "moving parts" in a game of Magic than Poker.

If it was mostly skill you would have 2 or 3 players who were clearly leaps and bounds ahead of the field and who won almost every competition they were in except when they happened to run into each other.

Garry Kasparov is an example of what happens in a skill-based competition.

Even Draft is a 50/50 thing with random chance playing as much of a part as skill level.

That's not saying that bad players don't lose many more games than they should. Just that random chance is a huge part of the overall competition. Which is why the 2 or 3 best players in the world are absolutely capable of scrubbing out in day one of a two day competition now and then. They just didn't catch the breaks or a few people got wildly lucky against them.This isn't an argument in regards to draft not being skillful. This is just a statement on the randomness of drawing in general. You don't really back up your claim that draft is so much more random than regular Magic.

Fact is, Draft is quite skill-intensive and there's surprisingly little luck involved because of all the decisions that have to be made in regards to what to pick, and how to incorporate everything from what you want to make, what it seems everyone else is making, and so on, to say nothing of the deckbuilding that follows. The fact you play against the same people as was in your drafting group makes additionally sure that randomness is not a real factor in deck construction, as you're picking from the same group of cards as they are.

Sealed is another matter, as you're far more at the mercy of what you open, and all your opponents have made their decks from different card pools than you rather than it all being shared. I do think people overstate the additional luck factor in Sealed--there really aren't many actual sealed pools you simply can't win with--but there is still the small chance you'll be the guy who gets stuck with the legitimately unplayable Sealed pool.

And in regards to the general claim about the luck factor, you're right that even the top players can sometimes just scrub out, but it really doesn't seem to happen with them that much; it's why you'll see the same names getting into the top places in tournaments with considerable frequency. Don't look at what are outliers and leap to the conclusion that they're "normal."

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2015, 03:13 AM

I think the "\s" means sarcasm.

So I drafted this set on cockatrice and it is really fun to draft! Its not even close to "5 turns land go, then dragons" its an aggro set! You almost always end up with a 2 colour deck with plenty of 2&3 drops all with power 2+ and a relevant ability! Dragons are surprisingly all bad and uncommon anyway, maybe you pick 1 or 2 as a finisher...

menace13

03-16-2015, 05:23 AM

HPB_Eggo

03-16-2015, 10:43 AM

Actually... that's not quite true. Indeed, Poker is a game where you can--theoretically--get a losing hand every game and still win. For example, if you can bluff your opponent into thinking you have a good enough hand, you can still win with a bad one. This is one area where Poker allows for more skill, because you aren't forced to go all in on every hand, whereas you basically have to do that with Magic.

Conversely, though, there's a lot more decisions and "moving parts" in a game of Magic than Poker.

To clarify, I definitely agree with you. My post was mostly sarcastic, hence the '/s'.

Also, 100% agreed on Sealed being the most variable format, overall. Draft has infinitely more skill associated with it than Sealed does, as you have no control over the cards other people get in their pool. You still have to build a working deck from your pool, but it definitely takes away a huge portion of what makes Draft such a skillful format.

Finn

03-19-2015, 10:43 AM

iamajellydonut

03-19-2015, 11:06 AM

TsumiBand

03-19-2015, 02:24 PM

Hmm.
It looks like Exploit can be countered by removing the creature with the ability on the stack. I like that part of it a whole lot. But I thought they were dumbing. This seems to reward brains in a very old fashioned way.

Are you saying that it can be effectively countered by killing the creature if it's the only one in play? Or are you saying that I can have like 8 Orcs in play, cast a thing with Exploit, stack the Exploit and kill the creature with Exploit, and watch the ability fizzle for some reason?

If it's the former, that's actually pretty much in-line with the way I'd have expected things to work since you can't sacrifice what you don't control. But if you're saying it works in the latter way, that's really really different from previous creatures and not very intuitive at all - kind of like the handful of cards that double-up on the "in play" wording like Stalking Yeti ("When -this- enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, .....")

iamajellydonut

03-19-2015, 02:41 PM

Are you saying that it can be effectively countered by killing the creature if it's the only one in play? Or are you saying that I can have like 8 Orcs in play, cast a thing with Exploit, stack the Exploit and kill the creature with Exploit, and watch the ability fizzle for some reason?

Minister of Pain enters the battlefield.
Minister of Pain's exploit trigger is put onto the stack.
iamajellydonut smacks Minister of Pain with a Lightning Bolt.
Minister of Pain is put into the graveyard and never sees its exploit trigger resolve and therefore will not have exploited a creature.

Finn

03-19-2015, 03:02 PM

maritlage

03-19-2015, 04:18 PM

Right.

If I am his opponent, the Exploit trigger went on the stack as you would expect. My minister catches a bolt and dies with this trigger waiting to resolve. I have not chosen which creature to sacrifice yet. I can still decide to sacrifice another creature if I like when the trigger resolves. I just will not get the Exploit benefit from it.

I think that this is because the text telling us the results of exploitation are not OTB at resolution.

So it's not backbreaking to interrupt the resolution, but it is a pro kind of play to have something like Swords to Plowshares act like a counterspell.

This does not work. Mainly do to the fact that you can in response to something like swords to plowshares you just sac the minister to the exploit trigger. The exploit mechanic does not care if the creature is on the field upon resolution only if the exploit cost was payed. Now there maybe a circumstance where in with the trigger on the stack i just let you kill my exploit creature and then sac a creature to the exploit trigger for some reason but that escapes me at the moment on what that situation maybe.

TsumiBand

03-19-2015, 05:38 PM

Minister of Pain enters the battlefield.
Minister of Pain's exploit trigger is put onto the stack.
iamajellydonut smacks Minister of Pain with a Lightning Bolt.
Minister of Pain is put into the graveyard and never sees its exploit trigger resolve and therefore will not have exploited a creature.

So it's a bit like Madness* and it's "secretly" multiple effects - one "you may sacrifice a creature" trigger, and then an "if you sacrificed to the exploit, do a thing" effect?

* - because you can Stifle the first ability and prevent a Madness card from returning from exile with its "pay my Madness cost to cast me" effect on it, which is definitely an old trick but not at all intuitive unless you already knew how Madness precisely worked

maritlage

03-19-2015, 05:58 PM

Yes TsumiBand.

Finn

03-20-2015, 01:35 PM

This does not work. Mainly do to the fact that you can in response to something like swords to plowshares you just sac the minister to the exploit trigger. The exploit mechanic does not care if the creature is on the field upon resolution only if the exploit cost was payed. Now there maybe a circumstance where in with the trigger on the stack i just let you kill my exploit creature and then sac a creature to the exploit trigger for some reason but that escapes me at the moment on what that situation maybe.

It works.
You can't just decide to satisfy the Exploit cost by sacrificing a creature when I point removal at it. Exploit uses a trigger that uses the stack like anything else. The sacrifice happens upon resolution and only at that time. It is the same deal as Standstill (gets sacrificed upon resolution of a trigger). Note that the text about what happens from Exploit is on a different line. This is important. The creature must be on the battlefield when the sacrifice resolves to Exploit something because that part is an independent trigger. It does not even go on the stack until the first trigger resolves, and that has not happened until after it is tilling the soil from StP.

MaximumC

03-20-2015, 01:45 PM

It works.
You can't just decide to satisfy the Exploit cost by sacrificing a creature when I point removal at it. Exploit uses a trigger that uses the stack like anything else. The sacrifice happens upon resolution and only at that time. It is the same deal as Standstill (gets sacrificed upon resolution of a trigger). Note that the text about what happens from Exploit is on a different line. This is important. The creature must be on the battlefield when the sacrifice resolves to Exploit something because that part is an independent trigger. It does not even go on the stack until the first trigger resolves, and that has not happened until after it is tilling the soil from StP.

To clarify this a bit for people...

An activated ability like this could not be stopped with removal...

"Sacrifice this: Do a thing."

... because, in that case, the sacrifice is a COST and is paid by the person who wants to activate it as part of putting the ability on the stack. If you try to bolt it, they get priority and can now pay the cost. (Barring Split Second shenanigans).

Exploit is not written that way. Exploit has two independent* triggered abilities...

"When this enters the battlefield, do a thing."
"If you do a thing, do this other thing."

So when Golden Shower Crow or whatever else enters the battlefield, a triggered ability goes HAI I AM ON THE STACK and you then get an option to retain priority or not. If you dont, it goes to the opponent, who is now free to cast Lighting Bolt. Bolt resolves first, removing the creature from the battlefield.

Then, Exploit resolves and announces "YOU MAY DO A THING." Now, you can still do a thing if you want. If you were trying to sac your own Bob to make sure you don't die from drawing Blightsteel Colossus next turn, then yea, you can still do that.

However, if you do choose to Do A Thing, that will be the end of it. Why? Because the ability "If you do a thing, do this other thing" isn't around anymore - the creature died prematurely. Of course, any other cards that care about creatures getting sacrificed or dying or whatever will still see that you Did A Thing, but the particular Exploit card that got burned up isn't there to care.

* - They might technically be "linked" since I think one trigger asks only if the first trigger resolved and did a thing. Not sure what the proper nomenclature is here.

rufus

03-20-2015, 03:10 PM

To clarify this a bit for people...
...

Exploit is not written that way. Exploit has two independent* triggered abilities...

"When this enters the battlefield, do a thing."
"If you do a thing, do this other thing."
...

The template for removal-proof exploit would really be:

"As ~ enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature."

tescrin

03-20-2015, 03:17 PM

TsumiBand

03-20-2015, 04:40 PM

There's a neat loop with the Aven they seem to have designed for standard:
-Attack with Alesha and pay 3
-Reanimate the crow. Sacrifice the Crow
-Draw two

Doubt it's legacy worthy, but this kind of trick is worth noting. Exploit is their attempt at a new version of Evoke by the by, but with no shenanigan possibilities (flicker) and less.. you know.. good.

Eeeehhh it's a kissing cousin of Evoke, right -- the idea with Evoke being that the creature doubled as a spell because it would self-sacrifice the moment it was in play. You can of course do the same with Exploit if need be, but also Exploit differs from Evoke because Evoke has both creatures with ETB triggers and Dies triggers so the "Evoke-ness" doesn't really change - the creature ETB and dies, and an effect is on the stack - whereas with Exploit, it's the chance to sac a crappy dude or a token or something for some greater effect.

There's still plenty of shenan to igan, like Exploit + Athreos (in standard) or the aforementioned Alesha and there are, indeed, more than a few guys/spells in Standard which reanimate things with cmc < X and/or power < X, so there's some kind of weird under-the-radar thing that probably exists. Maybe it's already a deck, I have no idea, for as much as I enjoy Tarkir Block I haven't touched Standard for realsies since RtR.

Barook

03-20-2015, 05:40 PM

rufus

03-20-2015, 09:03 PM

Eeeehhh it's a kissing cousin of Evoke, right --....

Or the love child of evoke and devour. Gurmag Drowner and Vulturous Aven seem like they could let you trade early drops into mid or late game value, but legacy is probably too sensitive to mana cost.

Octopusman

03-22-2015, 03:28 AM

Or the love child of evoke and devour. Gurmag Drowner and Vulturous Aven seem like they could let you trade early drops into mid or late game value, but legacy is probably too sensitive to mana cost.

Aven seems good even though, as you mentioned, 4cc slots are competitive.
Best to pair it with something like explorer or other graveyard triggers.

adm326

03-28-2015, 07:13 AM

Minister of Pain enters the battlefield.
Minister of Pain's exploit trigger is put onto the stack.
iamajellydonut smacks Minister of Pain with a Lightning Bolt.
Minister of Pain is put into the graveyard and never sees its exploit trigger resolve and therefore will not have exploited a creature.

I am guessing that Minister of Pain will still have exploited the creature. It will not be on the battlefield so the second triggered ability won't go on the stack.

In other news, Strionic Resonator can probably help exploit creatures exploit twice.

MaximumC

03-30-2015, 11:11 AM

I am guessing that Minister of Pain will still have exploited the creature. It will not be on the battlefield so the second triggered ability won't go on the stack.

Yeah.

1. Minister arrives. The "Sacrifice a creature if you want" trigger is on the stack.
2. Bolt kills the Minister. Resolves. Minister dies.
3. Minister's "Sacrifice a creature if you want" trigger resolves. You are free to sacrifice something if you want to. If you do, then, yes, Minister will have "exploited" something in a pedantic sense. Sure.

HOWEVER...

Nothing else happens. Minister is not around to SEE the exploiting happen. He's dead. Gone. His second triggered ability never does anything because he's not around to see the results of his action.