[EDH] Talrand, Sky Summoner

[kryllex]

1x Talrand, Sky Summoner

//Lands
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Halimar Depths
26x Island
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Maze of Ith
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Strip Mine
1x Terrain Generator
1x Tolaria West

//Instants
1x Anticipate
1x Arcane Denial
1x Boomerang
1x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Cunning Wish
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Daze
1x Dig Through Time
1x Dissolve
1x Force of Will
1x Force Spike
1x Frantic Search
1x Gush
1x High Tide
1x Impulse
1x Long-Term Plans
1x Memory Lapse
1x Mental Note
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Negate
1x Opt
1x Pact of Negation
1x Peek
1x Peer Through Depths
1x Perilous Research
1x Quicken
1x Reach Through Mists
1x Spell Pierce
1x Swan Song
1x Thought Scour
1x Thwart
1x Vapor Snag
1x Visions of Beyond
1x Whispers of the Muse
1x Wipe Away

//Sorceries
1x Bribery
1x Call to Mind
1x Careful Study
1x Day's Undoing
1x Fabricate
1x Gitaxian Probe
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Personal Tutor
1x Ponder
1x Portent
1x Preordain
1x Serum Visions
1x Sleight of Hand
1x Strategic Planning
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Temporal Trespass
1x Time Reversal
1x Time Spiral
1x Time Warp
1x Treasure Cruise

//Artifacts
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Sapphire Medallion
1x Isochron Scepter
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Proteus Staff
1x Sol Ring

//Enchantment
1x Jace's Sanctum

//Creature
1x Tidespout Tyrant

//Wishboard
1x Sunder
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Foil
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Misdirection
1x Repeal
1x Plagiarize
1x Trickbind


Updated the List.

This is my second EDH Deck after Daretti, Scrap Savant in a Stax shell.
Tidespout Tyrant is the only Creature next to Talrand himself, since you mostly want to chain cantrips to generate an insane army of Drakes, defended by Countermagic - which will generate even more Drakes.

The Deck plays a TON of cantrips - the Idea is, that most cards you play replace themselves, to keep fuel in the Hand at all Time.

The Deck can generally be played in two ways - aggressive, slamming down Talrand on turn 2-4, covered by Free Counterspells like Force of Will or Thwart or Protection in Form of Lightning Greaves, generating a ton of Drakes and ending the game quick by tutoring Time Walks in Form of Time Warp, Temporal Mastery and Temporal Trespass, knocking out one opponnent after another, finishing off your evil plans by slamming down Sunder, which will end the game most on the time on the spot.

Or, the Controllish Way - waiting a bit longer to resolve your General, since being too aggressive will turn all your enemies against you. Countering Cards that can be too annoying for you, while just having a few Drakes that mostly serve as blocker. You don't want to be too aggressive with attacking here, but keeping the board in a position that is good for you. Proteus Staff tutors your only Creature, Tidespout Tyrant. Staff and your other artifacts can be tutored by Fabricate, which can be found pretty fast while digging through your Deck by casting alot of cheap cantrips.

Cunning Wish is bonkers, since it allows you to have acess to your Sideboard, helping you out in slippery situations. I am not 100% sure about my Sideboard tho.

Personal Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Long-Term Plans and Merchant Scroll will find you the things you want to have, while your Timewalks in form of Time Warp, Temporal Mastery and Temporal Trespass grant you the time you need to set up the big swing. And casting Time Spiral in this Deck is just... yummy.

[Davran]

Is Opposition a thing here? Seems like your drakes could do quite a bit of work on that front, especially the ones that are summoning sick.

Didn't see Arcane Denial in there either.

Is Reality Shift worth running despite the fact that it doesn't cantrip? Seems better than Vapor Snag in the very least.

[kryllex]

Opposition seems nice, i'll probably pick that one up.
For the rest of the Deck, I put it together quite fast with the things I had, so upgrades will probably gonna follow soon, since it's kinda far from perfect right now. :tongue:

[Mystical_Jackass]

Control Magic, Treachery and things like Phantasmal Image/Metamorph are extremely good. I also think Ghostly Flicker, Repulse, and Crystal Shard are great functional for protecting or removing annoying things. I'd also throw in Lightning Greaves, don't recall seeing it there but I'd run both with Swiftboots.

I don't have experience running Talrand, but I'd almost think you're committing too much into cantrip draw, I understand it goes well with your general but like the other guy mentioned, I'd rather have Arcane Denial/Repulse over 2x more Ponders, for example. Rest looks pretty good... only thing I'd be worried about would be annoying enchantments, like if opponent drops a Humility or something like that, you wouldn't have a lot of ways of dealing besides counter or capsize I guess, not that that would come up that often.

[Killane]

I have a Talrand list, lots of similar choices. I originally also ran Tidespout Tyrant. I've since upgrades to Jin-Gitaxis, which is almsot unbeatable in this list. Add a Proteus Staff, Polymorph and Reweave and you can get it into play off drakes absurdly easilly.

I agree with the above poster re: cantrip draw. After a year I've found only a few to be worth it - you're usually better off running more incidental cantrips (stuff like Exclude and Cryptic Command), and then a few good draw engines (I particularly like Bident of Thassa).

Sapphire Medalion is really really good in this deck, as is extraplanar lens with snow lands.

[Baumeister]

I've been playing a "powered" version of Talrand for about eight months and it has an absurd winning record of over 90% against powerful, standard commanders like Ghave, Sen Triplets, Sharuum, Zur, and Teferi.

You're missing some powerful spells that could add some percentage points to your deck.

First, max out on your cheaper cantrips. This deck plays aggro-control really well and you want to constantly be cycling through the top of your deck to find answers. The one-mana Brainstorm variants are all pretty good. Predict is hilarious against top-of-library tutors. You have Bident of Thassa, Coastal Piracy does virtually the same thing and allows you to operate like an Edric deck late-game.

Long-Term Plans is a nice tutor and you should be able to dig into the card pretty quickly. Personal Tutor is a more restrictive Mystical Tutor but is still very good.

Pact of Negation is Force #2. Unified Will is good later in the game.

Mana Drain is extraordinarily good as you always have a use for the mana. It will often allow you to drop Gauntlet of Power or Caged Sun for "free" and get immediate use out of it. Mana Crypt is expensive (money-wise) but fits beautifully with the :2: in Talrand's mana cost.

Proteus Staff is bonkers and you can reduce your creatures to Tidespout Tyrant and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, both of which crush the board. You can also tuck problematic commanders to give you some breathing room.

Finally, time magic is Talrand's best friend and is relatively easy to find. Walk the Aeons and Temporal Mastery are easy to pick up. Time Warp is more expensive, but has been reprinted a few times. Temporal Manipulation and Capture of Jingzhou complete the set and give you a solid set of ways to drop another land, swing for more damage, and produce more drakes. They are also the primary win condition after ensuring the board is safe.

[lambert101]

@Baumeister

Do you mind posting your list?

[Baumeister]

Here you go:

27 Island
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Scalding Tarn
Riptide Laboratory
Academy Ruins
Reliquary Tower

Tidespout Tyrant
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur

Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Sapphire Medallion
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun

Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Long-Term Plans
Fabricate

Gitaxian Probe
Portent
Sleight of Hand
Serum Visions
Ponder
Preordain
Opt
Thought Scour
Whispers of the Muse
Brainstorm
Think Twice
Telling Time
Perilous Research
Predict
Impulse
Frantic Search
Keep Watch
Rhystic Study
Stroke of Genius
Blue Sun’s Zenith
Fact or Fiction
Coastal Piracy
Bident of Thassa
Gush
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time

Pact of Negation
Swan Song
Memory Lapse
Negate
Unified Will
Arcane Denial
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Cryptic Command
Force of Will

Repeal
Into the Roil
Snap
Cyclonic Rift
Boomerang
Repulse
Capsize
Wipe Away
Wash Out
Aetherspouts

Opposition
Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Capture of Jingzhou
Walk the Aeons
Temporal Mastery
Proteus Staff

[Killane]

So after some long thought on Baumeister's post and list I made some changes last night and played a few games. A few thoughts:

Some of the cantrips are really bad, and 10 counterspells seems like too few. I had initally dropped to 18 from my high of 26 and came back up to 20. You really want to cast Talrand on 5 or 6 with counterspell back-up.

Jin-Git and Tidespout is the way to. Geez that combination of dudes is gross with Proteus Staff. I also like Reweave, which has other interesting applications.

Misdirection is actually pretty good in this list. Even if you're protecting Talrand on an empty board the drake trigger resolves first so you can send the removal spell at the drake.

Long Term Plans is shockingly good. Shockingly. It's practically demonic tutor in this deck.

It's pretty easy to set up a combo with this list and end the game on the spot. I run a Timetwister and a Call to Mind - there are lots of ways to loop drawing your entire deck, with proteus staff in play to stack it, and cast any spell you want as many times as you want. The nice part is there are no dead cards - the combo is completely incidential but lets you put it away instead of playing tempo.

I love this deck.

[Baumeister]

Some of the cantrips are really bad, and 10 counterspells seems like too few. I had initally dropped to 18 from my high of 26 and came back up to 20. You really want to cast Talrand on 5 or 6 with counterspell back-up.

Some of the cantrips are indeed terrible, but even the worst ones are astoundingly good when you get to put a 2/2 Drake into play. You should always assume you will be functioning with Talrand in play because if he's not, you will be doing everything possible to get him in play. Not to mention chaining cantrips allows you to craft a perfect hand. I started building the deck with fewer cantrips and more meaty draw, but the cutting the lower cost spells really decreases the consistency of the deck. All of the instant-speed cantrips are worth playing, but you can probably cut some of the sorcery-speed cruft.

I've actually considered dropping down below 10 counterspells because I often find them dead in my hand. I pretty much save my counterspells for must-counter things that will either win the game right then, or stop me from winning on my turn. Counterspells don't really advance your board state, they just prevent it from unraveling. I'm just assuming here, but you're probably countering haymakers like Planeswalkers and fatties like Avenger of Zendikar just because it's good form. Talrand just doesn't care about that kind of stuff.


Jin-Git and Tidespout is the way to. Geez that combination of dudes is gross with Proteus Staff. I also like Reweave, which has other interesting applications.

They crush dreams like nobody's business. I've had decks spiked at me after Tidespout Tyrant triggered a few times targeting lands.


Long Term Plans is shockingly good. Shockingly. It's practically demonic tutor in this deck.

And it's instant-speed!


I love this deck.

It's fun to play and rewards tight play, but it will not make you any friends. The first game is always interesting because everyone sees you casting cantrips and thinks nothing of it but somehow you just craft this army of attackers with a full grip to back them up. The deck wins games it really has no business winning and I have no idea why. I guess blue really is just brutally efficient at what it does.

[kryllex]

Updated the list by A LOT. In this form it is abolutely insane for me, especially the inclusion of Cunning Wish makes the deck handle alot more tricky situations.

[Baumeister]

The update looks pretty good and I really like the wish-board. Hurkyl's Recall is so close to making it in my deck and this kind of solves that issue while giving you some more options for specific threats.

I'm happy to see more time magic, although you're missing Walk the Aeons. That should be fairly easy and inexpensive to find and it has buyback for late game shenanigans.

I didn't see Capsize in your list. Have you not had very much success with that card?

Is Bribery really that good for you in this deck? What kind of targets are you finding that would make it better over more card manipulation and drakes?

[kryllex]

Capsize is in my wishboard; i mostly casted it for three during the earlier game to remove potential problems, since in the lategame i am mostly able to do super stupid things anyways; therefore, i put Boomerang in its place while still having access to it with Cunning Wish and i am very satisfied with it!

Bribery is... absolutely... stupid. It gets me a Blightsteel Colossus or some combo engines for 5 mana, heavily disrupting my opponents gameplan. I would never ever cut it! Extremely satisfied with it, i can only recommend it to test it out!

The thing with Walk the Aeons for me is its cmc6. The timewalks i play are potentially pretty cheap; and i dont want to push the average cmc too high in my deck, allowing me to chain spells easier. Also, i made the experience, that whenever i cast any timewalk, i am abvle to cast the other both right away with it, by using tutors or other stuff like Time Spiral, which mostly grants me to kill one opponent per turn; since i mostly cast it in the lategame, having a huge Drake army present.
But i might get me a copy and test it, since the "free" Buyback is pretty attractive.

UPDATES:
I cut Arcane Lighthouse for Riptide Laboratory. I never used the Lighthouse, and Laboratory saves my Talrand and is also tutorable with Tolaria West.

Thinking about cutting Blue Sun's Zenith for Brain Freeze in the Wishboard, for some funny combowombo kills!

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Not sure if it was worth making a new thread for, so I decided to Necro this one with my list:

Talrand, Sky Summoner
Sol Ring
Gitaxian Probe
Brainstorm
High Tide
Mystical Tutor
Opt
Ponder
Pongify
Preordain
Rapid Hybridization
Serum Visions
Swan Song
Isochron Scepter
Lightning Greaves
Runechanter's Pike
Sapphire Medallion
Anticipate
Arcane Denial
Cyclonic Rift
Disdainful Stroke
Favorable Winds
Impulse
Into the Roil
Mana Leak
Merchant Scroll
Negate
Reality Shift
Snap
Telling Time
Think Twice
Counterspell
Muddle the Mixture
Twincast
Proteus Staff
Call to Mind
Exclude
Fabricate
Rhystic Study
Cancel
Capsize
Dissipate
Dissolve
Dream Fracture
Forbid
Hinder
Polymorphist's Jest
Spell Crumple
Fact or Fiction
Jace's Sanctum
Wash Out
Archaeomancer
Bident of Thassa
Dismiss
Foil
Rewind
Rite of Replication
Talent of the Telepath
Caged Sun
Stolen Identity
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Stormtide Leviathan
Curse of the Swine
Blue Sun's Zenith
Arcane Lighthouse
Halimar Depths
Lonely Sandbar
Myriad Landscape
Reliquary Tower
Temple of the False God
29 Island

[kryllex]

Very nice List!

As I see, you play more Counterspells than I do, but less Timewalks. I guess that is a matter of taste :)

Some Updates:
Jace's Sanctum is... so.. good...in this deck! Holy crap, after I tested a few rounds i couldn't believe how stupidly good it is when it sticks for a few turns. Also, added High Tide in the Maindeck, because i dont wan't to wish for the High Tide + Time Spiral combo all the time.
Additionally, i added Day's Undoing and Time Reversal for some fun stuff. On the other Hand, i cut Sunder from the Maindeck and added it to the wishboard, because it's not good when it comes too early. Changed Caged Sun with Gauntlet of Power, because its just better (well, cheaper). Also, Gilded Lotus got the Axe for Sapphire Medallion, 5 Mana for a Mana-Stone is too much I think, and the Medallion lets me chain cantrips better. Mental Misstep also went out - it's just too situational, and the other softcounters are still better, because they still generate free drakes.

I am flip-flopping Desertion, i am not sure if i want to play it.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Very nice List!

As I see, you play more Counterspells than I do, but less Timewalks. I guess that is a matter of taste :)

Some Updates:
Jace's Sanctum is... so.. good...in this deck! Holy crap, after I tested a few rounds i couldn't believe how stupidly good it is when it sticks for a few turns. Also, added High Tide in the Maindeck, because i dont wan't to wish for the High Tide + Time Spiral combo all the time.
Additionally, i added Day's Undoing and Time Reversal for some fun stuff. On the other Hand, i cut Sunder from the Maindeck and added it to the wishboard, because it's not good when it comes too early. Changed Caged Sun with Gauntlet of Power, because its just better (well, cheaper). Also, Gilded Lotus got the Axe for Sapphire Medallion, 5 Mana for a Mana-Stone is too much I think, and the Medallion lets me chain cantrips better. Mental Misstep also went out - it's just too situational, and the other softcounters are still better, because they still generate free drakes.

I am flip-flopping Desertion, i am not sure if i want to play it.

Thanks! I totally agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm starting to realize Time Walks are our answer to Cultivates and the like, but I'm okay with not depending on them. I'd rather slow other people down and maximize my flexibility.

[xbento]

I've been playing a "powered" version of Talrand for about eight months and it has an absurd winning record of over 90% against powerful, standard commanders like Ghave, Sen Triplets, Sharuum, Zur, and Teferi.

Are these1v1 games that you're winning 90%
Also does this list need Snow Lands and Extraplanar lens?

[Baumeister]

Are these1v1 games that you're winning 90%

No. The list is set up for multiplayer games as it includes Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. The deck generally doesn't combo out as quickly as some of the other faster decks in the format so it can take advantage of not having to fight through the strongest hate in the first few turns. Kuma has talked about this in a few of his threads but, generally, the decks that win most consistently in high powered groups are slightly slower to make sure to try and be the third to win. Talrand can also accumulate an absurd amount of protection in hand while winning so once the cogs start to churn, it can be difficult to stop.

It's also important to know how to stop combos by removing key pieces. That will make your win rate go up pretty quickly.

The list is essentially a testament to how ridiculously powerful blue is in this game. The cards by themselves are pretty low-powered, but you just see so many cards over the course of the game that you can overwhelm multiple opponents with card advantage.


Also does this list need Snow Lands and Extraplanar lens?

Normally, I try and stay away from Extraplanar Lens. People have an unnatural amount of hate for that card and I've rarely had it stick around for enough time to generate mana advantage. That said, you do have a lot of protection in the deck but countering Acidic Slimes and Nature's Claims kind of sucks. Feel free to try it out and let us know how it goes.

[xbento]

Valid points, also what is the "combo" here?

[Baumeister]

Valid points, also what is the "combo" here?

It's the various time walks in the list (Time Warp, Temporal Manipulation, etc.) plus any amount of card draw. Not a true combo, but the pieces are all live throughout the game which grants flexibility.

The best options are Coastal Piracy, Bident of Thassa, and Keep Watch. You essentially become an Edric deck mid to late game. It's pretty easy to seal the game when you can attack, draw 5 to 10 cards, play those cards from your hand to make more drakes, and then pass the turn to yourself to repeat.

[xbento]

I'm going to build this list, it seems incredibly fragile in the sense that you can't afford to counter any of the million ways your board gets swept because you won't have countermagic for the next players who are going to cast something even more scary, but we'll see.

[xbento]

Have you tried Call to Mind or a Time Spiral type effect?

[Baumeister]

Have you tried Call to Mind or a Time Spiral type effect?

Call to Mind probably needs to have a spot in the deck. I've been thinking about adding it as a recursion package along with Deja Vu, Sage's Knowledge, Relearn, and Pull from the Deep. Call is clearly the best, but Pull is probably worth running as well because of the card advantage. The others may not pan out due to being narrow. It all needs testing.

I ran Time Spiral and friends for a while and they are definitely quite splashy and have won me games. The deck doesn't really need them outside of corner scenarios, though, and they were eventually cut to bring down the average CMC of the deck to make it faster. I could definitely see running Time Spiral because it does so many things for just one card. You might look at adding Mind's Desire at that point because you could absolutely crush tables if you resolved them in the same turn.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

So with the new changes, I'm thinking about making my deck more of a control deck as opposed to combo. I'm talking about 40 lands with more "mass removal." I'm also trying to make an optimal 1v1 build. I'll be back with lists.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Sorry for the double-post. Here's my latest list:

Talrand, Sky Summoner
Mental Mistep
Brainstorm
Mystic Speculation
Opt
Ponder
Pongify
Preordain
Rapid Hyrbridization
Serum Visions
Swan's Song
Isochron Scepter
Lightning Greaves
Sapphire Medallion
Torpor Orb
Anticipate
Cyclonic Rift
Essence Scatter
Impluse
Into the Roil
Merchant Scroll
Negate
Reality Shift
Remove Soul
Snap
Snapcaster Mage
Telling Time
Counterspell
Muddle the Mixture
Proteus Staff
Vedalken Shackles
Exclude
Fabricate
Oona's Grace
Cancel
Capsize
Dissipate
Dissolve
Dream Fracture
Forbid
Hinder
Spell Crumple
Aetherize
Fact or Fiction
Wash Out
Bident of Thassa
Foil
Overwhelming Denial
Rewind
Rite of Replication
Cryptic Command
Aetherspouts
Force of Will
Misdirection
Stolen Identity
Commandeer
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Curse of the Swine
Blue Sun's Zenith
Arcane Lighthouse
Riptide Laboratory
Scrying Sheets
Tectonic Edge
Tolaria West
35 Snow-Covered Island
I want to play this in both multiplayer and Duel tournaments, so I'm trying to follow both ban lists. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Baumeister]

I want to play this in both multiplayer and Duel tournaments, so I'm trying to follow both ban lists. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have found that Talrand functions pretty optimally in a quasi-Threshold shell which allows you to not only easily take advantage of his Drake-spamming ability, but also see a larger than average portion of your deck to find answers to various board states. You are skewing more towards a Mono-Blue Control build so I'll make suggestions based on that.

Discounting counterspells and removal, this is what looks to be your solid control core:


Isochron Scepter
Torpor Orb
Vedalken Shackles


I would work on beefing this up with more hardline stuff like Back to Basics, Propaganda, Invoke Prejudice, Land Equilibrium, and Mana Vortex. Enchantments can be difficult for some pods to deal with and these provide effects that are either entirely asymmetrical or can be easily exploited by your deck to be asymmetrical.

I would also look at adding a beefier ramp package starting with Jace's Sanctum. Both modes of that card are extremely relevant, but knocking a mana off almost every spell you play is good enough.

I have had some luck with Alhammarret's Archive boosting the power of my cantrips. It's a late game spell, but it does a lot of work if you can get it to stick.

Finally, you probably need draw that is more powerful. Something along the lines of Rhystic Study and friends. Mystic Remora could work well and could even be bounced to reset the counters for additional draw.

Sphinx of the Final Word seems to be an interesting card from the new set. It could be quite powerful as a Proteus Staff target.

[Baumeister]

I have an updated Talrand, Sky Summoner list for anyone still playing this guy. I went through and tried to trim out the fat to make the deck function more consistently:

26 Snow-Covered Island
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Scalding Tarn
Riptide Laboratory
Academy Ruins
Reliquary Tower

Jace’s Sanctum
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Sapphire Medallion
Extraplanar Lens
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun

Sleight of Hand
Serum Visions
Ponder
Preordain
Thought Scour
Whispers of the Muse
Brainstorm
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Anticipate
Telling Time
Merchant Scroll
Impulse
Muddle the Mixture
Frantic Search
Long-Term Plans
Fabricate
Intuition

Oona’s Grace
Keep Watch
Stroke of Genius
Blue Sun’s Zenith
Fact or Fiction
Coastal Piracy
Bident of Thassa
Gush
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time

Call to Mind
Relearn
Pull from the Deep
Opposition
Alhammarret’s Archive

Tidespout Tyrant
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Proteus Staff

Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Capture of Jingzhou
Walk the Aeons
Temporal Mastery

Pact of Negation
Envelop
Swan Song
Negate
Arcane Denial
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Forbid
Mindbreak Trap
Cryptic Command
Misdirection
Force of Will

Into the Roil
Cyclonic Rift
Boomerang
Capsize
Wipe Away
Wash Out

The average functional CMC (example: Mana Crypt costs 0 and makes 2 mana, so it’s fCMC is -2) of the deck is 2.95 which is pretty good for a non-combo deck. The ramp is pretty important which is why Extraplanar Lens has a spot. You generally have enough protection to be able to untap with it, but it’s important to read the board.

The cantrip and draw package feels about right. Talrand obviously functions very well with these cards so they form the backbone of the deck. The more cards you see, the more likely you are to win the game.

Time magic is still very good. The counterspell suite is up to 12 cards which has worked well. I kept in the best bounce spells because that’s really the only kind of removal we have available.

I’ve found that the deck can leverage very limited resources into game wins. For example, simply having Talrand out, a mana doubler, and Capsize can equate to a win if played conservatively.

It’s nice to have the recursion pieces in the deck as they function as additional time walks, removal, and draw so they are pretty much never dead.

The weakest cards in the deck:

Opposition: I’ve had trouble finding a consistent use for this card. It’s good, but you can generally control the board with the cards in your hand and use your creatures to attack to push through damage to end the game. There have been scenarios where it’s been effective, but it’s usually when I’m ahead in the game

Alhammarret’s Archive: Without a doubt, this card is win-more, but it supercharges your cantrips and is really fun to play.

Proteus Staff: This and the two fatties I play may not be necessary. I generally win with Drake damage.

Everything else has tested well and I’d say I’m 90% happy with the deck.

[Zzz678]

Hi Baumeister,

What do you think of Runechanter's Pike in one of these slots that you're not satisfied?

A lone Drake or even Talrand can do letal damage with it.

[Baumeister]

What do you think of Runechanter's Pike in one of these slots that you're not satisfied?

A lone Drake or even Talrand can do letal damage with it.

I see what you're trying to do and it's probably worth a test slot. My reservations are that it's not an instant or sorcery which have a higher than average impact with Talrand and that it doesn't really facilitate the deck to win along the path it wants to. However, the cost to get it in play isn't terrible and having the ability to end the game earlier than expected can be nice.

I'll test it out and see how the card functions.

[Zzz678]

I don't have the money to buy Capture of Jingzhou, do you think that another time magic like Temporal Trespass or Part the Waterveil can be a substitute to it ?

Or it is better to add another cantrip/counterspell ?

[Baumeister]

I don't have the money to buy Capture of Jingzhou, do you think that another time magic like Temporal Trespass or Part the Waterveil can be a substitute to it ?

Or it is better to add another cantrip/counterspell ?

The short answer is yes.

The deck wins by chaining time magic off draw triggers from Keep Watch, Coastal Piracy, and Bident of Thassa. Five iterations seems to be the sweet spot due to tutors, card draw, and cantrips so I simply picked the best five. I've thought about adding Temporal Trespass which is likely the next best time magic card but room is tight in the deck and I haven't really had a pressing need to do so.

[Zzz678]

I tried Runechanter's Pike and it does not work well. It don't have synergy with delve mechanic, the graveyard suite and it is even worse with Temporal Trespass.

I have problems with the fatties as I didn't have mana to cast it and wasn't able to return it to grimoire.

[Baumeister]

I tried Runechanter's Pike and it does not work well. It don't have synergy with delve mechanic, the graveyard suite and it is even worse with Temporal Trespass.

That's the same conclusion I came to. Global pump like Gauntlet of Power is better because it adds about the same amount of damage while also supercharging your mana base.


I have problems with the fatties as I didn't have mana to cast it and wasn't able to return it to grimoire.

I'm not really sure where the "grimoire" is, but if you're having issues with the top end creatures, they can probably be cut. Sure, Tidespout Tyrant certainly wins games, but it's pretty much only when I'm ahead to begin with. The biggest issue we need to fix is fighting to catch up when you're behind and those cards don't really do anything to help that. Also, cutting Proteus Staff, Tidespout Tyrant, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur frees up spots for protection and removal which would be more useful for advancing your game plan.

[rawburt]

That's the same conclusion I came to. Global pump like Gauntlet of Power is better because it adds about the same amount of damage while also supercharging your mana base.



I'm not really sure where the "grimoire" is, but if you're having issues with the top end creatures, they can probably be cut. Sure, Tidespout Tyrant certainly wins games, but it's pretty much only when I'm ahead to begin with. The biggest issue we need to fix is fighting to catch up when you're behind and those cards don't really do anything to help that. Also, cutting Proteus Staff, Tidespout Tyrant, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur frees up spots for protection and removal which would be more useful for advancing your game plan.

Maybe drop those three for Pongify, Unified Will, and Back to Basics?

I run B2B and, while you can't tutor for it, with all the cantrips it can just straight up win some games.

[Baumeister]

Maybe drop those three for Pongify, Unified Will, and Back to Basics?

I run B2B and, while you can't tutor for it, with all the cantrips it can just straight up win some games.

If I were to remove the Proteus Staff package, Temporal Trespass would be the first card to get a slot simply to bolster the time magic up to six for a little more consistency.

Unified Will is good, but it's one of those cards that's better when you're ahead in the game. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum. I think Familiar's Ruse or Delay would be better simply because they are nearly always a hard counter. Delay probably gets the nod due to being extra good with time magic. Honestly though, I've been happy at 12 counterspells.

I used to play Pongify and it's reprint, Rapid Hybridization and they worked, but they only hit creatures. I think I ended up liking Repeal more for the flexibility at the cost of being more expensive to play.

Back to Basics probably needs a spot in the deck to form a prison core with Opposition. Good call.

[rawburt]

If I were to remove the Proteus Staff package, Temporal Trespass would be the first card to get a slot simply to bolster the time magic up to six for a little more consistency.

Unified Will is good, but it's one of those cards that's better when you're ahead in the game. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum. I think Familiar's Ruse or Delay would be better simply because they are nearly always a hard counter. Delay probably gets the nod due to being extra good with time magic. Honestly though, I've been happy at 12 counterspells.

I used to play Pongify and it's reprint, Rapid Hybridization and they worked, but they only hit creatures. I think I ended up liking Repeal more for the flexibility at the cost of being more expensive to play.

Back to Basics probably needs a spot in the deck to form a prison core with Opposition. Good call.

I actually cut Opposition (before I added B2B) becuase it really only had niche applications. Let me know how testing the two together works.

[Zzz678]

I added Back to Basics too, simple because it shuts down many decks.

My concern with the remotion of Proteus package is that we will have only 1 win condition. The fatties sometimes are dead cards in hand as we can't put it back in the library. Jace TMS can solve this problem for us?

In another way, If we remove Proteus package, maybe we can add some combo with Intuition.

[Baumeister]

I managed to test a few games this weekend with a slight change to the deck:

- Proteus Staff
- Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
- Tidespout Tyrant

+ Back to Basics
+ Unsubstantiate
+ Delay

The spoilers for the new set have been kind of frustrating. I understand the need to decrease the flexibility and power of the blue cards in recent sets so there wasn't much to pick from. There are actually quite a few cantrips and card draw spells, but they're all pretty terrible. Unsubstantiate seems like the best of the bunch.

Back to Basics is obvious as a card that does a lot for a very small upfront cost. Delay merely satisfies my need for one more counter. I was very close to adding Temporal Trespass, but I just don't know if it's necessary. It's nice that there is a spot for it if it's needed later.

Anyway, the games went well even though we are down to one win condition in the deck. Luckily, that condition is both mana efficient and highly resilient. I also can't remember the last time I won with Jin-Gitaxias or the Tyrant, so the cuts make sense. It brings the fCMC of the deck down even further and I have a smaller chance of drawing dead when it matters. Interestingly, with Proteus Staff gone, we could potentially add Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall for even more recursion. Coupled with Ghostly Flicker and time magic, that would enable an arbitrarily large number of consecutive turns. Of course, Flicker is basically dead with all the other cards in the deck.

I managed to set up a rude Back to Basics/Opposition situation that essentially forced the other players to play at instant-speed. I think with Back to Basics in the deck, Opposition actually makes a lot of sense. Testing obviously needs to be done.

I only drew Unsubstantiate once, but it was delightfully flexible. It's not a permanent solution, but it can buy you a turn against a wide variety of threats which is all this deck needs sometimes.

I don't know if anyone else is running the card, but Alhammarret's Archive can be pretty unfair. I managed to ramp into it pretty early one game and I drew so many cards over the course of a few turns that it almost didn't matter what my opponents did. I still understand that it may be overkill, but it makes every single cantrip in the deck even more busted which is crazy. I believe the outright raw power it provides may be worth it.

[Zzz678]

What do you think of Aetherflux Reservoir?

http://media.wizards.com/2016/bVvMNuiu2i_KLD/en_KuDOnPV1qn.png

[Baumeister]

What do you think of Aetherflux Reservoir?

http://media.wizards.com/2016/bVvMNuiu2i_KLD/en_KuDOnPV1qn.png

I definitely like this card because it looks like it would play well with this version of Talrand. I do have a few reservations, though.

It's not an instant or sorcery. The deck is currently around 55% instants and sorceries which I think is probably as low as you want to go. I'd feel more comfortable at 60%, but there's tension in the power level of the cards you want to run. So it's a trade-off between enablers and engines.

You need 151 life to kill a typical pod. I know it's an alternate win condition which is always good, I just don't know if it's good enough. The drake plan has been effective enough in every game I've played and I don't know if I need another win condition. The passive life gain is nice though.

Reservoir benefits from having a deck with a lot of instants so you can stack the triggers and gain extra life. I don't know if this deck has a high enough density to make it worthwhile. I also generally find myself casting only a couple of spells per turn at the most just to maintain tenuous control of the board. Cantrips are obviously great, but we only have a dozen or so of those.

I will test the card when it comes out, probably in the spot where I have Alhammarrett's Archive. Off the top of my head though, I imagine this card is better in a control shell with Oloro, Ageless Ascetic where you are generating life gain all the time from your general.

[Zzz678]

Jin-Gitaxias and Tidespout Tirant could be substituted for Blighsteel Colossus only? Colossus has synergy with time magic, doesn't shuffle our graveyard and free one slot.

[Baumeister]

Jin-Gitaxias and Tidespout Tirant could be substituted for Blighsteel Colossus only? Colossus has synergy with time magic, doesn't shuffle our graveyard and free one slot.

I think if you're still running Proteus Staff, Blightsteel Colossus is fine. If you manage to take an extra turn, you can probably put a player out of the game. I cut both Jin-Gitaxias and Tyrant so I could take out Staff as well. The more I play, the more it's apparent that Talrand can pretty much do it on his own. Sure, you only have one "win-condition" but through counterspells, bounce to protect him, and the fact that he can simply be recast makes it the only win condition that you want. If the other players can consistently keep Talrand off the board, I'm probably not winning the game anyway and the scenarios where some other giant creature is going to get me there are few and far between.

I've been trying to focus on streamlining the deck to bring the average CMC down as much as possible. I think we want to be a highly flexible permission deck with the ability to chain turns together for the win. The best thing we can do is get Talrand down early with protection and it's important to focus on doing that. The only cards I'm really willing to add that don't work with Talrand are cards that draw an absurd number of cards because of how the deck functions (Alhammarrett's Archive), highly disruptive lock pieces (Back to Basics, maybe Torpor Orb), and ramp that's either too good not to include or has multiple functions like Gauntlet/Sun.

[Zzz678]

It will be fun to test Alhammarret's Archive with Aetherflux Reservoir... If you chains 5 spells, you draw 10 cards and kill an opponent, right?
:0:

[Martha D. Paulk]

The EDH format doesn't have many decks that could be described as "Draw, Go" but commander might fit the bill (depending on your build). Let's take a look at Talrand's card

[Zzz678]

Anybody is still playing Talrand? Baumeister?

[kryllex]

I switched from Talrand to Baral High Tide, because the more competitive the meta got around me, the less i wanted to rely on the commander himself to win. I loved the Deck and played it for many years, but for now i am giving my Drake Army a rest.