Question about using Foreign language cards in tournament decks

[MGB]

So let's say you play a pretty obscure deck in Legacy, and you take your deck to tournaments. The deck you prefer to do battle with plays a whole bunch of rarely played cards that most people have either never seen before or seen maybe once or twice in their Magic career.

Knowing that most people you face with this deck will be wholly unfamiliar with the workings of most of your cards, would it be advantageous to play foreign language versions of these cards? Or would it be more hassle than it's worth?

What exactly is the etiquette for such obscure decks filled with foreign language (Japanese/Chinese/Korean) cards? Is it OK to try to bait out play mistakes from opponents who are unfamiliar with how your cards work? Is it a considered poor form because they will have to call Judges to the table every few minutes to get an Oracle ruling? Are you supposed to explain to them the exact English Oracle ruling if they ask what a specific card does?

What is the community's thoughts on playing asian language cards NOT to pimp out a deck but simply to try to confuse the opponent in order to increase your win % a bit? Good idea, bad idea, good form, bad form? Would it be effective strategy or would it just be a waste of time?

Again, I do not care about pimping a deck out AT ALL, I'm just curious if using asian cards would be strategically advantageous if I'm playing a really obscure deck filled with rarely seen cards.

[Tylert]

There a chance you will not win anyway if playing with a bunch of obscure cards that no one plays in legacy :)
also, you will only catch bad players who can't assess a card and its impacts on the board quickly.
It has some strategic advantages of course (some people will be caught off guards), and it is not forbidden by the rules, however, it's a little bit like cheating (and it's definitely poor).

[barcode]

You can ask for Oracle text from a judge at any time. Using foreign cards is perfectly fine.

[Sloshthedark]

Yes its advantage, just make sure you know your cards... seriously, i saw multiple times people lose to their pimp cards just because they think what those do... I do not like this aspect of the game, very few people ask for oracle just because it prolongs the game and makes them feel awkward... beginners beaten the hardest... On the other hand I obv. have cards like Teferi's realm in korean :cool: ... what to say - game should have stayed olddesign and english...

Actually one of the reasons I did not dare to play Highlander sidevent at Bom like events, as non Edh player 6 hours of swimming through unknown french card does not make sense...

[The_Dingo]

I purposefully try to play decks that are entirely in English because I value transparency and sportsmanship, and because I'd rather win a game well played by both players. I think it would be scummy to try and gain advantage through my opponents unfamiliarity. Despite my opinion on this, if your opponent doesn't call a judge to get the oracle text, it's definitely on them.

I've played plenty of obscure cards with the text in English in tournaments. I've found that the people who are most willing to call a judge for the oracle text are the veterans. I guess it's the newest players (I remember being this way) who were too proud to call a judge and announce their inexperience. Pride and all that.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'd like to remind everyone that English cards can in some cases be worse than non-English, if there have been erratas. Argothian Enchantress can even be more confusing ("successfully cast" shouldn't have "successfully" in there) than an unreadable card. There are a lot of examples of this, but in general like everyone says, if you have any doubts call a judge.

I prefer non-English because of how they look, but I've definitely called a judge to get the exact wording on even my own cards.

[sdematt]

I play Nic Fit quite a bit as of late, and the deck it totally foreign. To say that there's a strategic edge to using foreign cards might be true, but again, at any time, I've always told my opponent if they're unsure to call a judge for Oracle text. Some do and some don't.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

The strategic edge and sportsmanship arguments fall flat to me. There is no real edge because either someone can understand what a card does when they first read/hear it, or they don't. Needing me to explain what Brainstorm does doesn't make it any more likely to win the match than if they had to read it - in either case I'm 100% to win :tongue:

I've been playing mostly- or all-foreign decks for years and I think the only card that ever gained me an edge was Kavu Predator (who remembers that it has trample?). Apart from that, just my own enjoyment and compliments from others.

[Megadeus]

As much as foreign cards are cool, it can be a pain in the ass at times in tournaments. Saw a guy ask for the Oracle text of a Korean Mirri's Guile three times in a single game, all after it was cast (as in the third time there were already two Mirris Guile on the field). I also have had someone ask me the Oracle text of a French BB USea...

[QQQ]

There is no real advantage. But possibly a percieved advantage from insecure players.

A player who legitimately doesn't know the precise wording and function of a card should call a judge. One who does not in those circumstances, probably wasn't going to do well anyway.

Except for that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. That's like cheating.

[Megadeus]

There is no real advantage. But possibly a percieved advantage from insecure players.

A player who legitimately doesn't know the precise wording and function of a card should call a judge. One who does not in those circumstances, probably wasn't going to do well anyway.

Except for that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. That's like cheating.

That Dryad Arbor is BS. I won a game against Phazonmutant because of it once. He didn't see it in the GY when I went to burn his scavenging ooze.

[eostby]

If you're playing foreign language cards specifically to try and gain an edge, that feels more than a little scummy to me. I have a few cards in foreign languages in my deck, but that was for cost and availability reasons, and the cards I have are fairly easily explained anyway (BEB, Reset, Meditate).

[thecrav]

I'd like to remind everyone that English cards can in some cases be worse than non-English, if there have been erratas. Argothian Enchantress can even be more confusing ("successfully cast" shouldn't have "successfully" in there) than an unreadable card. There are a lot of examples of this, but in general like everyone says, if you have any doubts call a judge.

Besides changes in oracle, a lot of old cards are templated such that how they are written and how they work now is quite different. I once watched a friend cast an Animate Dead. Their opponent turned the card around to read it and his reaction was "No. Stop. Reading that won't help you. You should call a judge." (I know that particular card is a bad example but that's the one I've seen it happen with)

I personally have switched to all English (except for Legends because $$$) for the benefit of myself, my opponent, and quite frequently, the people I'm lending cards to.

[Dice_Box]

Only non English cards I play with are Brainstorms. Because if you need to ask me what it does, that tells me all I need to know about how much Legacy you play. (But due to my Secret Santa I am building Grixis Painter in German.)

As someone who has built two "obscure" decks in R/W Painter and Combo Lands and watched them become almost mainstream (Well Lands is now) I will say this much. If your deck is off the beaten track but not entirely out there, on the ball players will pick it up fast. Those who don't, well they were unlikely to be in with much of a go to start with.

I am in favor of players having prints of the cards they play in the local language's of the environment they are playing in. When I go to Japan for Legacy, I would take a full print off of all my cards in Japanese just to make life easier. Granted, at this point if you don't know what Lands is your a bit behind the times.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I play with all foreign decks because I prefer the aesthetics of foreign languages - particularly Japanese - and in some cases don't want to have to read terrible flavor text (the awfulness of the text on All is Dust was one of the original inspirations for my wholesale switch to foreign cards). I never intended to gain advantage from this, although I suppose it has happened at times. I have also screwed myself over before by forgetting the exact text of a card. The most memorable of these was getting my Surgical Extraction Misdirected and forgetting that searching my hand and library to exile cards was optional. Nowadays I take pains to insure that there is no confusion over the function of the cards I am playing, by explaining the text to my opponents or suggesting they call a judge for oracle text (at higher REL events). So, in conclusion, I would say that playing foreign cards exclusively to gain advantage is pretty scummy (although it isn't against the rules). Regardless, it's unlikely to gain you any edge against good/experienced players - with very obscure decks excepted at times. However, if you're playing a very obscure deck you're probably playing a bad deck so I don't find that particularly relevant.

[Phoenix Ignition]

in some cases don't want to have to read terrible flavor text (the awfulness of the text on All is Dust was one of the original inspirations for my wholesale switch to foreign cards).

Wow, I've never noticed how cringe-worthy this flavor text is. All is dust

[Admiral_Arzar]

Wow, I've never noticed how cringe-worthy this flavor text is. All is dust

I know right? It's such a cool card and a powerful effect - and that pile of shit line is all they could come up with?

[Namida]

A couple of years back when Dark Ascension came out, I remember a group of people in my area who were trying to scoop up all of the foreign language Thalias they could find, and their reason for it was specifically because at Competitive RELs you're allowed to not tell the whole truth (but not lie) about what your cards do, and the card was new enough that they hoped to trick players by omitting the part about Thalia having first strike if they were ever asked. Other than that encounter and this question, I've never seen anyone actually asking about intentionally buying foreign cards to gain an advantage. Personally, I play with Japanese cards, but I can read Japanese (and there's no way I'd play with cards I couldn't read). I play in Japan so it's not like I'm really running into players who can't read my cards, anyway.

Because you can do things like the above scenario, you certainly can get an edge playing foreign language cards, but I suspect the benefit is minimal. I mean, you're only going to "get" players who don't ask for the Oracle Text of cards they don't understand--is there a ton of overlap between the group of people who wouldn't call a judge when they don't understand a card, and the group of people who are experienced and skilled enough for you to *need* to gain these sorts of little advantages?

[sdematt]

I mean, let's not be too hasty here. I'm never coy with my opponent as to what a card does. I know the Oracle from memory for any card I'm playing, and if they ask, I always read the full text of the card, with the added clause, "If you're not sure, feel free to call the judge to get the oracle."

It's just that when the cards aren't in English, sometimes if your opponent is not on their game, they forget special abilities of creatures, etc. That's just the same if you had an English Thalia and they forgot. Relying on the card text, especially in Legacy, isn't an excuse. Many cards have errata that is FAR different than written text, so players need to ask or learn it. If my opponent is not on top of their game and their sloppy or forgetful play turns into a fortuitous turn of events, wonderful for me. If not, I'm not heartbroken. I'm not looking to scum anyone. I'm looking to pimp.

-Matt

[thecrav]

I mean, let's not be too hasty here. I'm never coy with my opponent as to what a card does. I know the Oracle from memory for any card I'm playing, and if they ask, I always read the full text of the card, with the added clause, "If you're not sure, feel free to call the judge to get the oracle."

I always tell people to call a judge. Sure, I might know the oracle by heart but if I get one thing wrong and it ends up being important, it becomes my fault.

[Plague Sliver]

If opponents keep asking for Oracle text because you're playing a 99% obscure deck, there are time considerations. You might get some wins/losses/draws that you didn't mean to, and opponents didn't mean to, because the gameplay is slowed down.

I'll also echo the sentiment that old English cards are terrible for being up-to-date, and that consulting Oracle is always best. Makes me wish you could append a marker to cards that are dramatically different, for those that wish to exhibit sportsmanship.

Having said that, as a pimp-in-training, I can safely say that if you can read your cards, you're doing it wrong :cool:

[thecrav]

Having said that, as a pimp-in-training, I can safely say that if you can read your cards, you're doing it wrong :cool:

I'll just take off my glasses while playing. That'll save me some money :P

[Sloshthedark]

, I've never seen anyone actually asking about intentionally buying foreign cards to gain an advantage. Personally, I play with Japanese cards, but I can read Japanese (and there's no way I'd play with cards I couldn't read). I play in Japan so it's not like I'm really running into players who can't read my cards, anyway.


What I've heard Thopter foundry was quite popular in chinese due to thopters being blue (dunno why it was relevant), Tabernacle fx is destroy not sacrifice, Ruric Thar has to attack (who remembers outside of elves players), there is someone bolting a Mongoose once in a while., a lot of small things on cards... if you played some weird shit like xyz charm I'm quite sure most people have no idea of the other modes after 5 mins even if they read the oracle

[Dosferra]

I play fully foreign Lands, so in order to save time, it’s become second nature for me to state both the full oracle and then explain what it will actually do in practice. Can almost hear myself talking about The Tabernacle, Dark Depths and Glacial Chasm in my sleep.

Sometimes I even help them pick the correct card when they have to choose from my Intuition pile, because if they can’t figure it out within half a minute, usually it means I’m gonna win anyway.


If your deck is off the beaten track but not entirely out there, on the ball players will pick it up fast. Those who don't, well they were unlikely to be in with much of a go to start with.
Pretty much sums it up accurately, you won’t be getting any advantages against a strong opponent, consequently it’s not scummy.

[Parcher]

I am in favor of players having prints of the cards they play in the local language's of the environment they are playing in. When I go to Japan for Legacy, I would take a full print off of all my cards in Japanese just to make life easier. Granted, at this point if you don't know what Lands is your a bit behind the times.

If you do this at a tournament, be certain to only include the card itself in the print. Most such printouts will include the Oracle text with the print. And while every judge who shows such pages to players requesting them during matches allows them to see this, it is illegal for a player to do so on their own. It falls under the outside assistance category, since the chain of Oracle rulings, and often specific examples are also noted, and I have had friends get losses for doing so.

[MGB]

I mean, let's not be too hasty here. I'm never coy with my opponent as to what a card does. I know the Oracle from memory for any card I'm playing, and if they ask, I always read the full text of the card, with the added clause, "If you're not sure, feel free to call the judge to get the oracle."

It's just that when the cards aren't in English, sometimes if your opponent is not on their game, they forget special abilities of creatures, etc. That's just the same if you had an English Thalia and they forgot. Relying on the card text, especially in Legacy, isn't an excuse. Many cards have errata that is FAR different than written text, so players need to ask or learn it. If my opponent is not on top of their game and their sloppy or forgetful play turns into a fortuitous turn of events, wonderful for me. If not, I'm not heartbroken. I'm not looking to scum anyone. I'm looking to pimp.

-Matt

See, this is what I'm talking about right here.

How many free wins against average players can you get in the Swiss just by running foreign language cards? And the corollary is - what's the downside (in terms of time lost, matches dragged out, bad karma, etc)?

If I run a card they are unfamiliar with that has close-to-Oracle english text, and they make the correct decision based on that, BUT if I were playing the Japanese version of that card, and they make an assumption about its abilities and lose the game because of that assumption... maybe playing the foreign language card is worthwhile.

Again - I'm not purposely misleading them - it's their responsibility to be up-to-date on the correct wording of all the cards they will likely run into - and furthermore, their responsibility to call a judge if they are unsure at any given moment.

Obviously, really good players will not be so sloppy, so this tactic probably doesn't apply to the top-8 matchups or anything like that - but in the Swiss, sometimes you run into sloppy and/or mediocre players with decks that are *bad matchups* for your deck, and getting a free win against a bad matchup is always nice to have, isn't it?

[Star|Scream]

See, this is what I'm talking about right here.

How many free wins against average players can you get in the Swiss just by running foreign language cards? And the corollary is - what's the downside (in terms of time lost, matches dragged out, bad karma, etc)?

If I run a card they are unfamiliar with that has close-to-Oracle english text, and they make the correct decision based on that, BUT if I were playing the Japanese version of that card, and they make an assumption about its abilities and lose the game because of that assumption... maybe playing the foreign language card is worthwhile.

Again - I'm not purposely misleading them - it's their responsibility to be up-to-date on the correct wording of all the cards they will likely run into - and furthermore, their responsibility to call a judge if they are unsure at any given moment.

Obviously, really good players will not be so sloppy, so this tactic probably doesn't apply to the top-8 matchups or anything like that - but in the Swiss, sometimes you run into sloppy and/or mediocre players with decks that are *bad matchups* for your deck, and getting a free win against a bad matchup is always nice to have, isn't it?

So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

Is that illegal?
Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?

[Dice_Box]

If you do this at a tournament, be certain to only include the card itself in the print. Most such printouts will include the Oracle text with the print. And while every judge who shows such pages to players requesting them during matches allows them to see this, it is illegal for a player to do so on their own. It falls under the outside assistance category, since the chain of Oracle rulings, and often specific examples are also noted, and I have had friends get losses for doing so.

It would be a print of the card only, sleeved in a different colour sleeve to the ones I am using using a token as the back.

[Megadeus]

So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

Is that illegal?
Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?

I'm no judge, but only telling your opponent half of a cards ability seems pretty sketchy.

[Star|Scream]

I'm no judge, but only telling your opponent half of a cards ability seems pretty sketchy.

I agree. I'm just trying to see if that's exactly what OP is asking, and if so, what others think.

[Quasim0ff]

So say you play a Korean Thalia, and your opponent hasn't really run into this card before. They ask you what she does and you say that she's a 2/1 that makes noncreature spells cost 1 more to cast. Next turn the player attacks their 2/2 into her, and after you block you let them know she also has first-strike.

Is that illegal?
Is it their fault for not calling a judge for the oracle? Is it their fault for never having seen the card before? Or is it your fault for purposely trying to mislead your opponent?
Yeah, that's not okay. If they ask, you have to respond to them truthfully.
You are welcome to refer to a judge, if you don't want to tell them yourself, but you cannot lie (or withhold information, which in this case is basically the same)

[Tammit67]

Yeah, that's not okay. If they ask, you have to respond to them truthfully.
You are welcome to refer to a judge, if you don't want to tell them yourself, but you cannot lie (or withhold information, which in this case is basically the same)

You can withhold information. If you say thalia is a 2/1 human that makes spells cost 1 more, that's fine.

Oracle text is derived information. While you aren't allowed to lie about it, you do not have to tell the whole truth. Don't answer judge questions for which you do not know the answer.



The following rules govern player communication:
•Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the
type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
•Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
•Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
•At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.

Notice it only says free information has to be answered completely if asked by a player. Else you'd have to state every single aspect of a card should your opponent asks you.

In your world, if you ask me what is that card and it's a grizzly bear, I'm getting in trouble for simply saying it's a 2/2. In your world I gotta say its 2/2 with no abilities that is creature-bear and is green and other details.

Edit: more exhaustive: http://www.magic-league.com/article/713/entering_the_grey_zone_of_communication.html


Toby Elliott on Player Communication Guide

Basic information consists of publicly viewable information, the base characteristics of the cards in play (including choices made) and actions taken. Derived information is what you get when you put together all the basic information and your knowledge of the rules to form a picture of the game state.

However, statements do not need to be exhaustive - honest answers with careful omissions or "non-answers" designed to misdirect opponents into making suboptimal - but not illegal - plays are acceptable.

2nd Edit: Further reading: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20070911a

[Quasim0ff]

You can withhold information. If you say thalia is a 2/1 human that makes spells cost 1 more, that's fine.

Oracle text is derived information. While you aren't allowed to lie about it, you do not have to tell the whole truth. Don't answer judge question for which you do not know the answer.



Notice it only says free information has to be answered completely if asked by a player. Else you'd have to state every single aspect of a card should your opponent asks you.

In your world, if you ask me what is that card and it's a grizzly bear, I'm getting in trouble for simply saying it's a 2/2. In your world I gotta say its 2/2 with no abilities that is creature-bear and is green and other details.

Edit: more exhaustive: http://www.magic-league.com/article/713/entering_the_grey_zone_of_communication.html



2nd Edit: Further reading: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20070911a
Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

*No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.

[Tammit67]

Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

*No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.

It is certainly bad sportsmanship.

Why is the bear case not comBEARable? If I don't answer fully leaving nothing out and it becomes relevant, wouldn't I get in trouble?

[phazonmutant]

Didn't cdr, recently, post something regarding a comparable case?

It might just be real bad sportsmanship, which is what I remembered as the deal-breaker.

*No, the grizzly bear case is not comparable with the thalia case.

Why not? I'm playing foreigned-out bear tribal with the best bears in Magic, and I tell you my Forest Bear is a 2/2 when you ask. You decide to play Engineered Plague on Ape because, well just check out this sweet art:
http://magiccards.info/scans/jp/p3k/135.jpg

Is that unsporting to not say that my Forest Bear is a Bear?

[sdematt]

I wouldn't ever not say Thalia doesn't have First Strike. I think that's scummy. If they don't remember after I told them it had first strike, tough beans.

-Matt

[Fry]

There is no real advantage. But possibly a percieved advantage from insecure players.

A player who legitimately doesn't know the precise wording and function of a card should call a judge. One who does not in those circumstances, probably wasn't going to do well anyway.

Except for that fucking FTV Dryad Arbor. That's like cheating.

I absolutely hate that printing! I always ask my opponent to have is away from the other lands so that I don't get confused as to whether or not it's a Cheaty Arbor.

[Tammit67]

I wouldn't ever not say Thalia doesn't have First Strike. I think that's scummy. If they don't remember after I told them it had first strike, tough beans.

-Matt

Yeah, agreed. It's just not technically against the rules.

[Quasim0ff]

Why not? I'm playing foreigned-out bear tribal with the best bears in Magic, and I tell you my Forest Bear is a 2/2 when you ask. You decide to play Engineered Plague on Ape because, well just check out this sweet art:
http://magiccards.info/scans/jp/p3k/135.jpg

Is that unsporting to not say that my Forest Bear is a Bear?
Those scenarios aren't alike, however.

[Star|Scream]

So I guess basically to answer the OP, yes you MAY get free wins or a slight edge against players who are unfamiliar with your cards if they are foreign, and you can even leave out key information if they ask you what your cards do. However, it's probably not the nicest thing to do--karma wise.

[jimmythegreek]

Sorry, foreign cards are not pimp imo. With a complicated board state with tons of effects and abilities going on at once it's much easier to comprehend what's happening when cards are in the native tongue. And yes, anyone playing with foreign cards is borderline being a douche-bag, sorry. Hoping your opponent is too shy to ask what your Italian chains does for the second time is not strategy, it's being a sneaky fuck. Foreign cards in too many situations slow down the game and give unfair advantage as well. First edition native tongue.....pimp.

[iamajellydonut]

Hoping your opponent is too shy to ask what your Italian chains does for the second time is not strategy, it's being a sneaky fuck.

Is that implying your opponent would better understand an English Chains?

As stated earlier in the thread, it's actually a benefit in many cases to have foreign versions of the older cards because it will force your opponent to get the correct text rather than try (and fail) to translate the bullshit an English print would have.

[Undomian]

Sorry, foreign cards are not pimp imo. With a complicated board state with tons of effects and abilities going on at once it's much easier to comprehend what's happening when cards are in the native tongue. And yes, anyone playing with foreign cards is borderline being a douche-bag, sorry. Hoping your opponent is too shy to ask what your Italian chains does for the second time is not strategy, it's being a sneaky fuck. Foreign cards in too many situations slow down the game and give unfair advantage as well. First edition native tongue.....pimp.

To each their own. If my opponent is too shy to ask me or a judge what one of my cards does, that's their loss. This is a format where the official text of a given card is often very different from the printed text, so English isn't going to help much either.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Sorry, foreign cards are not pimp imo. With a complicated board state with tons of effects and abilities going on at once it's much easier to comprehend what's happening when cards are in the native tongue. And yes, anyone playing with foreign cards is borderline being a douche-bag, sorry. Hoping your opponent is too shy to ask what your Italian chains does for the second time is not strategy, it's being a sneaky fuck. Foreign cards in too many situations slow down the game and give unfair advantage as well. First edition native tongue.....pimp.

Lol definitely the first time I've been called a douche-bag for my pimping habits. Nobody cares about your opinion, especially when you use a card that isn't even intelligible in English to most people as your example.

[Quasim0ff]

Sorry, foreign cards are not pimp imo. With a complicated board state with tons of effects and abilities going on at once it's much easier to comprehend what's happening when cards are in the native tongue. And yes, anyone playing with foreign cards is borderline being a douche-bag, sorry. Hoping your opponent is too shy to ask what your Italian chains does for the second time is not strategy, it's being a sneaky fuck. Foreign cards in too many situations slow down the game and give unfair advantage as well. First edition native tongue.....pimp.
What the actual duck, mate.

[jimmythegreek]

Is that implying your opponent would better understand an English Chains?

As stated earlier in the thread, it's actually a benefit in many cases to have foreign versions of the older cards because it will force your opponent to get the correct text rather than try (and fail) to translate the bullshit an English print would have.

In what world is it beneficial to an English speaking meta to have a pile of Japanese cards across the table from me? I'm petty sure oracle comes in English....sorry for sounding dickish.

[jimmythegreek]

[QUOTE=Undomian;873814]To each their own. If my opponent is too shy to ask me or a judge what one of my cards does, that's their loss. This is a format where the official text of a given card is often very different from the printed text, so English isn't going to help much either

I disagree......most cards do exactly what they say, wtf? Goyf, bolt, Sfm, ....... In an English meta does or does not English cards simplify,speed up and make for a more balanced game? Sorry, but your being a bit sneaky playing foreign cards....and that's fine, I like first print English.

[jimmythegreek]

What the actual duck, mate.

I think you mean fuck, but I'm not sure. I apologize for the profanity.not.

[thecrav]

I disagree......most cards do exactly what they say, wtf? Goyf, bolt, Sfm,

You've chosen two newer cards and a simple card as your example. Most cards do what they say but their oracle text might be different. In a format like legacy where there's lots of interaction and the rules stack up on eachother, those small differences can make a lot of difference.

A few of counter examples:
+ The English printing of Karakas performs quite differently than its printed text*. More than once, I've had people attempt to use Karakas targeting itself, Umezawa's Jitte, or another legendary land.
+ TMD's favorite card to argue about printed vs oracle - Lotus Vale. If it worked as printed, it would be nuts. (Put comes into play trigger on stack, tap for 3 mana, trigger resolves, I sacrifice Lotus Vale)
+ Dryad Arbor - Though they're wrong, a lot of people have previously thought that because "Dryad Arbor is Green" was on the card, it was an ability and therefore Humility would remove it. In the oracle text (and FTV printing), this is replaced by a Green color indicator, hopefully removing this confusion.
+ As a whole class of cards, how about every card whose oracle creature type does not match their printed text? During 2007's Grand Creature Type Update (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/424a3), "more than half of the cards involved in this update got 'Human' added to them." You can go through the full list of changed cards at that link but I'll pluck out one that's not uncommon at all in Legacy: Lord of Atlantis doesn't have a single printing correctly listing its creature type**. (ABUR, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th call it a Lord. Time Spiral calls it a Merfolk Lord)

*At the time, Legend was a valid creature type. Now, it's not uncommon to see people assume this means "cards with the Legendary type"
**At the time, Lord was a valid creature type.

[Undomian]

[QUOTE=Undomian;873814]To each their own. If my opponent is too shy to ask me or a judge what one of my cards does, that's their loss. This is a format where the official text of a given card is often very different from the printed text, so English isn't going to help much either

I disagree......most cards do exactly what they say, wtf? Goyf, bolt, Sfm, ....... In an English meta does or does not English cards simplify,speed up and make for a more balanced game? Sorry, but your being a bit sneaky playing foreign cards....and that's fine, I like first print English.

There are a load of old cards that are like this. Your new border examples may all work as intended, but please, let us play with Transmute Artifact as it's worded.

[eostby]

Oh man, if Legacy was played with a permanent R&D's Secret Lair in play...

Also, I believe we've pinpointed the only time Anticipate is better than Impulse.