[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[Snowfire]

Thanks guys, that already helped me a lot!

@dte:
-In which MU do you really want Pharaohs?
-Where would you board out FoW?
-My thinking with Sickening Shoal instead of Contagion was that I can also kill Ooze after 1+ activation. Or is that irrelevant?
-I have also really liked CotA but I needed to make room for Amalgams and FoW

@Mr. Keller: I never realized that Leyline of Sanctity shuts off Bogs/Crypts/... and also does wonders vs. Storm/Burn/...

What do you guys think of the following sideboard:

3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Sickening Shoal / Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Faerie Macabre

Or should I rather go for 3 Leyline, 3 Faeries and 2 Unmask? I'm not really sure if I really need Unmask since I have FoW/Shoal. In which matchups do you board it in where Therapies aren't enough?

[Michael Keller]

Thanks guys, that already helped me a lot!

@dte:
-In which MU do you really want Pharaohs?
-Where would you board out FoW?
-My thinking with Sickening Shoal instead of Contagion was that I can also kill Ooze after 1+ activation. Or is that irrelevant?
-I have also really liked CotA but I needed to make room for Amalgams and FoW

@Mr. Keller: I never realized that Leyline of Sanctity shuts off Bogs/Crypts/... and also does wonders vs. Storm/Burn/...

What do you guys think of the following sideboard:

3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Sickening Shoal / Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Faerie Macabre

Or should I rather go for 3 Leyline, 3 Faeries and 2 Unmask? I'm not really sure if I really need Unmask since I have FoW/Shoal. In which matchups do you board it in where Therapies aren't enough?

It's really dependent on how the primary sixty looks. I've always been an advocate of running four Faerie Macabres in Manaless, only because of its many synergies, top-deck value and free activation. It's one of the best cards in the deck, honestly.

I've bounced between two and three Shoals, which is really a meta choice. If you suspect more Rest in Peace and Infernal Tutors, go with three.

I also actually play three Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I always eschew the fourth because it's a dead dredge, terrible top-deck, and gives you just enough value at three to be effective in a starting hand without having multiples and potentially double-Walking your opponent.

As for Contagion and Sickening Shoal, that's up for debate. Shoal gives you added clutch value against growing Oozes and Elesh Norn, but with four Faeries, surprise Pharaoh(s) and Prized Amalgams that survive Elesh Norn and enable Dread Return possibilities - Elesh Norn isn't much of a concern (to me anymore, at least). Remember, even creatures that die to Elesh Norn still enter the battlefield from the graveyard and trigger them. This is why I run Contagion, because it gives you value to hit your creatures and theirs, as well. Contagion is generally just an all-around better card in my opinion, and while it's true it can't stop creatures with toughness of three or more, it's rare you'll be in a situation where you're actually boarding in Contagion and then needing it in that scenario anyhow. Most scenarios it's just good against Deathrite Shaman and other weenie decks in the early goings.

[Snowfire]

Thanks man!

I think I'll go for:

3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Vengeful Pharaoh

In which specific matchups do you bring in the Pharaoh? I can think of Reanimator and maybe Show n Tell. Also Merfolk, Goblins etc.?

[dte]

-My thinking with Sickening Shoal instead of Contagion was that I can also kill Ooze after 1+ activation. Or is that irrelevant?


Yes, irrelevant. Ooze usually enters the battlefield with G up at best. Then you can answer the ooze activation with contagion. It is really rare that the opponent play ooze with much more manas available.
If your opponent succeeded to go as far as having 4-5 manas and play ooze plus remove 2-3 cards in your gy, chances are that even with shoal you will not win anyway.

On a global comment on your SB: I strongly think that having 4-of cards is not that good. You lose in flexibility. instead of a 4-of anything, you can play different things. For gy-hate for instance, you can play 1 faeries, 1 noxious, 1 surgical, 1 LLotV. Nothing wrong with 1-ofs LL (W or B) too, you're not going to mull into it anyway. Surgical and noxious are playable against non-gy decks too.

When playing any dredge deck, you have to realize that G2 your opponent will have a close look at what you SBed. If your storm opponent starts SBing in CoV to deal with LLoS and you play only one, it is good for you. Not that good if you play four. if he sees a lot of faeries in G2, chances are a CT will hit them before he plays PiF, and so on...

If it is your first journey, try to take a lot of different cards, it is the best way to realize how good or bad each of them is.

Good luck!

[Michael Keller]

Thanks man!

I think I'll go for:

3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Vengeful Pharaoh

In which specific matchups do you bring in the Pharaoh? I can think of Reanimator and maybe Show n Tell. Also Merfolk, Goblins etc.?

Pharaoh should be brought into match-ups where dangerous or troublesome creatures ( i.e. Containment Priest, Reanimator creatures, Thalia, etc.) can keep you at bay. It's more of a utility card, honestly. I've found myself in multiple instances just exiling it to Ichorid. Other times when you need him and you're able to surprise the opponent with Phantasmagorian, it's really good.

[Echelon]

Pharaoh should be brought into match-ups where dangerous or troublesome creatures ( i.e. Containment Priest, Reanimator creatures, Thalia, etc.) can keep you at bay. It's more of a utility card, honestly. I've found myself in multiple instances just exiling it to Ichorid. Other times when you need him and you're able to surprise the opponent with Phantasmagorian, it's really good.

Seconded!

Although Delver pilots tend to Surgical it before Surgicalling anything else. It's hilarious.

[Scott]

I've come to a conclusion regarding sideboarding that I think is contrary to popular belief, and I'm wondering if anyone's reached the same conclusion. My understanding is that most people board out the Balustrade Spy/Dread Return package, and shave things like Shambling Shell/Gitaxian Probe/Street Wraith/Bridge from Below/Cabal Therapy, when boarding in anti-hate.

I tried that, and found that my ability to play fair was compromised by the watering down of the deck, and losses were common even if I beat the hate. I've preferred keeping the combo package in to have that option open if I'm not powering out tons of creatures. For instance, against some generic grindy deck without counterspells or Deathrite Shaman boarding in Grafdigger's Cage, I might do something like +4 Force of Will, +4 Serum Powder, +3 Disrupting Shoal, -4 Street Wraith, -4 Cabal Therapy, -2 Shambling Shell, -1 Bridge from Below.

An exacerbating factor might be my large sideboarding of frequently 11 cards compared to people who just switch 4 FOWs and 4 Shoals for 4 D. Returns and 4 Spies, but even when I tried that, I felt watered down and vulnerable to getting outgrinded even if hate was a nonfactor. Whatchu think?

[dte]

I don't play the spies, still do not think they are good.
I don't know what you can possibly refer to when you speak about something with neither DRS nor countermagic.

For me that is either prison, with Eldrazi, D&T; in which the DR package is not that great (C Priest, Thalia, Thorn, RiP), or combo, when you of course want it (but then cutting the Cabal therapies makes no sense).

Also, I cannot see why you would cut on Street Wraith against either of them.

Also, about the so-called "spy-DR package". Considering it as a package can give you the wrong idea: even without a target, DR is an excellent way to make a lot of tokens and/or putting a 10/10 into play. I frequently kept 3-4 DR and no targets post board.

[Echelon]

Street Wraith is one of your most powerful cards vs. a part of the GY hate you face. Don't ever board those out!

I also tend to keep the combo package in - it's our fastest way to achieve a kill. Don't board that out either.

I tend to skip on Gitaxian Probe first, then a Phantasmagorian, then 1 Spy and some more 1-offs.

[Scott]

I don't play the spies, still do not think they are good.

The vast majority of Manaless Dredge players disagree with you. Regardless, if you don't play Spy, it's a little difficult to have a discussion with you about the intricacies of boarding Spy in or keeping Spy in.


I don't know what you can possibly refer to when you speak about something with neither DRS nor countermagic.

It's a generic example, and it does exist; Burn and Goblins are two examples. I can explain my boarding thoughts on other examples, but the general idea is that I like keeping all the Spies in.


For me that is either prison, with Eldrazi, D&T; in which the DR package is not that great (C Priest, Thalia, Thorn, RiP), or combo, when you of course want it (but then cutting the Cabal therapies makes no sense).

I'd never advocate cutting Therapy against combo.


Also, I cannot see why you would cut on Street Wraith against either of them.

You have to cut something, and if you're not protecting against something like DRS, Wraith is mostly speed. Something has to go. If I'm bringing in 8-11 cards, and am convinced that this waters down the deck's swarm ability and the combo should stay in, what else would you cut?


Also, about the so-called "spy-DR package". Considering it as a package can give you the wrong idea: even without a target, DR is an excellent way to make a lot of tokens and/or putting a 10/10 into play. I frequently kept 3-4 DR and no targets post board.

This is getting back to my original and main premise. I've found that bringing in all those FoWs, Shoals, etc. (which I've loved) has damaged my ability to grind, and I've won more when I've retained Spies compared to when I've abandoned the combo plan. Of course D. Return can function without Spy but that's still part of the swarm plan, which gets really tough post board, especially if you had to shave a Bridge.



Street Wraith is one of your most powerful cards vs. a part of the GY hate you face. Don't ever board those out!


The example I cited only has Cage. How does Wraith combat that? Obviously the cards taken out will change depending on the match up. I certainly wouldn't board Wraith out against a deck with DRS, Ooze, etc.


I also tend to keep the combo package in - it's our fastest way to achieve a kill. Don't board that out either.

On this main point we agree. I have the impression that others board it out.


I tend to skip on Gitaxian Probe first, then a Phantasmagorian, then 1 Spy and some more 1-offs.
We're talking about what we board out when we board in Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal, and you really can't board Probe out there.

[Echelon]

FoWs in a Spy-list is incredibly greedy.

Anyways, looking at your specific situation: If you run a Spy-list with Prized Amalgams (and you should never run Spy without them, in my opinion) you could actually skip on Bridge From Below entirely. You churn out enough bodies to combo out (and with a Progenitus in your 60 you're free to spread your combo over 2 turns) regardless of Bridge (or just swing for 30+ the following turn).

After that you can start cutting non-blue singletons I suppose. Shouldn't hurt the deck too much.

[Final Fortune]

I find FoW in Spy lists is more effective than FoW in Whirlpool Rider (or whatever) lists, because you can support post board FoWs with just Narcomoeba, Prized Amalgam and Gitaxian Probe without telegraphing it by playing it main deck or having a blue reanimation target.

Regarding Spy lists, I think they're the more budget friendly but no less tournament competitive lists, I keep a Spy list with MD Unmasks sleaved for paper Magic and don't have a much worse winrate vs my online FoW list (River Kelpie). As for SBing, I probably cut the DR targets and Nether Shadow the most for anti-hate, in the Spy lists I bring in Chancellor of the Annex for the Spy/Flayer and just grind down the opponent a lot. Otherwise you just cut a Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell, Dread Return and Bridge from Below if you want to sneak in a card.

Playing less than 4 Disrupting Shoals really irks me, if you're cutting the 4th Shambling Shell for the 4th Whirpool Rider then you should be going all in on Disrupting Shoal in order to have 11 blue cards to pitch to a Disrupting Shoal vs Rest in Peace - it's not a card you half ass.

[Snowfire]

Guys, today was just perfect! It was my first Legacy tournament ever (51 contestants) and I took home a 5-1 finishing 3rd place. Played the following list:

MB:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow

3 Dread Return
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Force of Will

SB:

3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal --> I thought I have 4 Contagion in paper, turned out I didn't... Had to got with Shoals instead. :D
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Faerie Macabre

____

Round 1: Alex - Merfolk

Game 1 I had a pretty slow start (also thanks to Cursecatcher removing my single Bridge). He almost had me dead and I had 1 zombie token and 2 Nether Shadow which I all needed for blockers to survive. He did Echoing Truth on Nether Shadow. I luckily had Force of Will, could block his dudes and somehow managed to kill him with some Flayer action (I was at 1 life at that point).

Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal

Game 2 he had 2 True-Name Nemesis on a Lord effect bashing me down to 5 (I would have been dead next turn). I think I had some 1/1 at that point. Luckily I got to counter his Tormod's Crypt with Force of Will and managed to combo out with Whirlpool Rider into Flayer on my turn.

2-0 WIN

____

Round 2: Stefan - UR Delver

Game 1 I had some beatdown action going on and he scooped as I reanimated Flayer on T3 with two Amalgams EOT.

Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal

Game 2 he got me down to 6 life with 2 Swiftspears, but I was racing with Ichorid and some zombies. He had a Cage on his starting hand, but saw my Force of Will with his Gitaxian Probe. Needless to say I countered that one. He held his Swiftspears back as blockers. Killed him though.

2-0 WIN

____

Round 3: Alex - BUG Delver

Game 1 he started with T1 Delver and T2 DRS (which I have countered with FoW :cool:) and a few cantrips. I could damage him a little until T3, when I reanimated Flayer into 2 Amalgams EOT, which brought him to exactly 0 life.

Boarding: -1 Shambling Shell, -3 Nether Shadow --> 1 Contagion, 3 Sickening Shoal (for Deathrite Shaman)

Game 2 he started with a T1 Delver and T2 DRS again, but I didn't have an out. I had a Troll, a Shell and a Phantasmagorian in my graveyard at that point. He DRS'd my Troll and went Surgical on Shambling Shell. EOT I discarded some stuff into my Phantasmagorian and had 2 Amalgam, 1 Ichorid and a bunch of zombie tokens, which was enough to kill him.

2-0 WIN

____

Round 4: Mathias - Grixis Delver

Game 1 I was thinking 'holy shit another Delver'. That was a beautiful game. Thanks to a Street Wraith dredging a Troll I had 2 Narcomoebas, 1 Amalgam and 1 Ichorid in play on turn 2 ready to attack. He couldn't race that.

Boarding: -1 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> +3 Disrupting Shoal

Game 2 he had a T2 Pyromancer and I had a slow start. The tokens and burn killed me. I countered an Extraction with Street Wraith though, which was something I guess.

Game 3 I got very unlucky. Additionally to his T1 Delver, T3 Angler and my slow start he extracted my only chance to win (Ichorid). Couldn't find any more dredgers or creatures.

1-2 LOSS

____

Round 5: Felix - 4c Loam

Game 1 was unspectacular. I saw some irrelevant stuff with Therapy and comboed out T3 or T4.

Boarding: -2 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> 4 Leyline of Sanctity (I was afraid of Bojuka Bog)

Game 2 he Marit Lage'd me hard on T3 with Mox Diamond support, couldn't do anything about it. The combo must have come out of his sideboard.

Game 3 he mulliganed for Leyline of the Void but couldn't find any (he told me he played 3 and no Bojuka Bog after the game). He kept a bad 5 card hand. I just beat him down with a bunch of creatures.

2-1 WIN

____

Round 6: Tobias - Mono R Staxx

Game 1 he shocked me with Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox into Hanweir Garnison on Turn 1 followed by a Golbin Rabblemaster. Yeah I just couldn't race that and didn't find the combo. I was dead on T4 I think. Dude was playing 4 Blood Moon, 4 Magus of the Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Tombs, 4 Spirit Guides and 4 Chrome Mox. No CMC2 spells I think. Is that even a deck in Legacy?

Boarding: -2 Nether Shadow, -1 Shambling Shell, -1 Phantasmagorian --> 3 Sickening Shoal, 1 Contagion (I needed an out for this brutal T1 play next to Force of Will).

Game 2 he mulled to 5 and didn't have anything relevant other that a Faerie Macabre which gave him a turn. I beat him down with Ichorids and stuff the following turns supported by Shoal killing his creature. Yeah Jitte is bad with no creature.

Game 3 he did the same thing as in game 1, but I had Force of Will. He mulled to 6 and was down to 2 (irrelevant) cards, which was totally worth the loss of 2 turns because of FoW. He didn't do anything relevant the rest of the game and I comboed out with Whirlpool Rider easily.

2-1 WIN

____

I finished on 3rd place under 51 contestants with an end result of 5-1 and took home a Savannah and SFM. I was so happy about this as it was my first legacy tournament and the 5th tournament (2 Modern and 2 Prereleases so far) in total. Force of Will really saved the day. It won 3 or 4 matches, especially the two in round 1. I was a little lucky though I guess. It's funny how I haven't lost vs Grixis Delver because of hate but because of very slow starts. I have not made any severe misplays. There were smaller ones, but that didn't screw up a whole game. I'll get some more practice with the blue version and see where it will take me.

Do you guys have any suggestions on how I should have sideboarded? Was it correct? There was a guy who said I should play Nature's Claim and Elvish Spirit Guide or Bayou in my sideboard to have an out vs Leyline. But considering that I need 8 sb slots for it I find that kinda bad... What do you think?

[ESG]

Round 5: Felix - 4c Loam
...
Game 2 he Marit Lage'd me hard on T3 with Mox Diamond support, couldn't do anything about it. The combo must have come out of his sideboard.
...
Round 6: Tobias - Mono R Staxx

Game 1 he shocked me with Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox into Hanweir Garnison on Turn 1 followed by a Golbin Rabblemaster. Yeah I just couldn't race that and didn't find the combo. I was dead on T4 I think. Dude was playing 4 Blood Moon, 4 Magus of the Moon, 4 Chalice, 4 Tombs, 4 Spirit Guides and 4 Chrome Mox. No CMC2 spells I think. Is that even a deck in Legacy?
...
There was a guy who said I should play Nature's Claim and Elvish Spirit Guide or Bayou in my sideboard to have an out vs Leyline. But considering that I need 8 sb slots for it I find that kinda bad... What do you think?

Congrats, Snowfire. That's a really great result for someone just starting out.

Some 4c Loam players run the Depths-Stage combo and some don't. Those that do run 1 copy of each, so it's unusual for them to combo out so fast, if at all. It's possible that your opponent should have just mulled to 1 in search of the Leyline, especially because he didn't have a line like Knight of the Reliquary into Bojuka Bog. This is a big decision point for anyone who runs Leyline and why I would never run less than 4 if I was going to run it.

You played against Dragon Stompy in Round 6. The deck is an all-in Blood Moon deck and used to ramp into Rakdos Pit Dragon, its namesake, but superior red creatures have been printed since then. If you're curious, you can find out more by reading the thread. It's here in the Established section. Sometimes it is referred to as Moon Stompy, Goblin Stompy or Goblin Prison, depending on which creatures it's running.

Playing Nature's Claim and green-producing sources is a big sideboard commitment, and the odds are not on your side to mulligan to both or draw both in the first several turns of the game. You have to decide whether you're going to scoop to a Leyline or whether you want to try to fight that battle with your sideboard. In my experience, I just wouldn't play this deck if I expected to run into more than a few Leylines in a tournament. It's probably the worst-nightmare hate card to see, but it isn't very common. You're much more likely to see Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest, Faerie Macabre, and Tormod's Crypt over the course of a tournament.

[Echelon]

@Snowfire: Congrats!

I'm not a fan of the green SB plan. It pretty much means that you must have a green source AND a Nature's Claim in your opening 7 AND your opponent can't have a counter or a Wasteland (not everyone is smart enough to board those out vs. us) in order for it to work. That's a pretty big gamble if you ask me. Too big for my taste.

[dte]

The vast majority of Manaless Dredge players disagree with you. Regardless, if you don't play Spy, it's a little difficult to have a discussion with you about the intricacies of boarding Spy in or keeping Spy in.

Well, about the only difference between spy and w.rider is if you prefer to have a pitch for ichorid or a pitch for shoal-Fow. I do not see where it makes a huge difference when it comes down to boarding.



It's a generic example, and it does exist; Burn and Goblins are two examples. I can explain my boarding thoughts on other examples, but the general idea is that I like keeping all the Spies in.


Well, when you say decks with neither DRS or countermagic, there are four of them in the DTB sections (2 prisons, 2 combos). I genuinely thought you were talking about them, not burn or gob.
If you talk about DRS decks, but do not want to talk about shardless, or dever variants, or elves, but more about Jund/junk/maverick, please precise it.



You have to cut something, and if you're not protecting against something like DRS, Wraith is mostly speed. Something has to go. If I'm bringing in 8-11 cards, and am convinced that this waters down the deck's swarm ability and the combo should stay in, what else would you cut?

Why do you want to keep the 4 spy and the 4 DR, if not for speed? If you want to race vs combo (no hate, no counters) you can cut the nether shadows, all shambling shell, bridge from below, and shave a bit in the phantasmagorian and amalgam slots.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Apologize in advance if this has been answered already but I'm curious, the blue package looks really sweet and makes me want to pick up the deck but what's the plan for bojuka bog, just Leyline of sanctity?

[Michael Keller]

Apologize in advance if this has been answered already but I'm curious, the blue package looks really sweet and makes me want to pick up the deck but what's the plan for bojuka bog, just Leyline of sanctity?


http://i.imgur.com/6QcPdEB.jpg

It depends on the context of the use of Bog. It's used primarily in conjunction with Crop Rotation, so you can play Force with Leyline and that should suffice. However, I play Shoal in most of those match-ups because typically Bog sees play in Lands and sometimes 12-Post variants, so having Shoal to counter other cards conveniently like Life from the Loam (to stop recursion with Exploration and Wasteland - buying you a turn to pluck a Faerie or something), Show and Tell (pitching Amalgam), etc. helps.

I think the key for folks who want to play the blue package is to understand how many Shoals to board in certain match-ups. I will sometimes run one Shoal paired with max Forces and max Leylines against Lands and other Crop Rotation decks, but that's until we get another card for one blue mana that makes it better than playing just Probe with it to counter one mana spells. Until that day comes, Chancellor of the Annex is your best weapon to buy a turn so you can discard as normal.

[Scott]

Manaless Dredge got 2nd (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106627) at today's SCG Classic in Somerset.

http://i.imgur.com/4zuOIKn.png

[Echelon]

Awesome! Hopefully we'll get a report!

[Scott]

It better involve misplacing a Golgari Thug :tongue:

[Echelon]

Lol

[Snowfire]

If somebody wanted to include an anti leyline package in the sideboard how should it look like in your opinion? You will need an enchantment removal and something to cast it.

Removal: Nature's Claim, Reverent Silence

Mana sources: Bayou, Forest, Elvish Spirit Guide, Land Grant

That's what I can think of. Maybe Reverent Silence is superior because it can handle multiple Leylines in exchange for an additional 2 life compared to Nature's Claim. Forest is wasteland proof while Bayou can also cast Therapy. I was also thinking of 1 Forest/Bayou plus 3 Land Grant to thin the library a bit improving your dredges. Elvish Spirit Guide is also an option but can be discarded if you have to draw into your removal with a Guide on hand. Plus it can be stifled (I think).

What are you guys' opinions? Have you ever tested something like that?

[Echelon]

Think for a minute about how many manasources you'd need to reliably cast anything. And then of how good the odds are of you having both that manasource AND that enchantment removal spell in your opening 7. And your opponent not having a counter to answer your removal spell.

Leylines hardly see any play (and at best they have a 40-ish percent chance to have it). Why bother with such a fragile, unreliable answer to a fringe problem?

By the way - ESG can't be Stifled, it's a mana ability.

[dte]

Think for a minute about how many manasources you'd need to reliably cast anything. And then of how good the odds are of you having both that manasource AND that enchantment removal spell in your opening 7. And your opponent not having a counter to answer your removal spell.

There is that, and that mostly sums it up.
Also, think that if you manage to hit both manasource and claim/silent, what are the odds you win the game with the double timewalk you just put upon yourself?
While it is doable, especially if your opponent mulled a couple of time to hit it, it is not that much.

If you really need an answer (local meta infested with them, and no other deck available for you), it will depend on which decks are running it.
Here are the pros and cons on each:
- silence: much better if you have to fight a deck featuring daze, and much better at answering multiple leylines too. If the leyline is played in a deck such as lands, playable under Sphere/Thorn.
- claim: answers efficiently grafdigger's cage, one of the most common hate, but also decent vs tormod and/or relic of progenitus.

lands: land grant is terrible, giving away information is bad, even with manaless dredge. Do not do anything in the grave.
fetches with a one off bayou and one-off dryad arbor are not that bad thought. Arbor is still a creature that can hit play very quickly to enable fast CT/DR.



Leylines hardly see any play (and at best they have a 40-ish percent chance to have it).

No, the probability is much higher than that. If they run four, it is 86.5%. Far from negligible for a game-ending threat.



Why bother with such a fragile, unreliable answer to a fringe problem?

Exactly, except if it is a local meta issue, do not bother.

[Snowfire]

Thanks guys, very helpful comments!

@dte: What's the math behind the 86,5%? Does this include mulligans?

[dte]

Thanks guys, very helpful comments!

@dte: What's the math behind the 86,5%? Does this include mulligans?

Yes, this include mulligans. Otherwise, classic hypergeometric function.
When you open a 7 without your leyline vs manaless dredge, you know that you have a 77.5 % to find it by mulliganing, and that finding leyline equates win.
So you mull, except if your hand give you more than 80% chances to win.

And you mull into oblivion if necessary, as even if you did not find a leyline in your 7, 6 and 5, you still have a 50% chance winning the game by mulling at four and below. So you do it.


That's why reasoning with a 40% chance of opening with it is wrong. That does not mean that leyline is a good gravehate card: it has this blowout effect almost only against these two very fringe decks that are manaless dredge and the oops all spells that do not run alternate wincon in SB.
Against reanimator or classical dredge it can be a big mistake to mull in this fashion.

[Echelon]

And as a result people seem hesitant to do so, even vs. Manaless. If they find another piece of hate in their opening 7 (say Surgical, or something of the sort) they tend to stick with that, rather than mulligan for something better (whether they should or not).

This deck profits a lot from the fact that it's hardly played. People make a lot of mistakes when sideboarding (and just in general). I'm talking CotV on X = 0, boarding out Thorn of Amethyst, electing to start rather than forcing you to start G2, dropping Pithing Needle and naming Dread Return. Seriously, I've seen people do the craziest shit when attempting to deal with Manaless. Mind you, this only goes for opponents that haven't played the MU that much yet. Experienced opponents know how to deal with your shenanigans just fine.

The question "What happens when I Stifle your Phantasmagorian activation?" always cracks me up.

[dte]

Yes, it is true that people often misplay against us. I played the deck last week, finishing at 5-1, and in two of my wins I saw what my opponent should have been doing and was not doing that could have secure them the win.
But should we count on that? I don't. Maybe we should, as it is one of the deck's strengths, but it seem awkward to me. Maybe you're right and we should.

[Echelon]

We shouldn't count on it. It's just fun when it happens and it just happens to happen a lot. Makes for entertaining anecdotes.

[dte]

It goes on both sides.
- Cabal Therapy targeting you?
- Resolves.
- Leyline of the void.
- You got me!

[Scott-Spain]

So I'm thinking about joining the dark side and converting my LED Dredge to Manaless for a couple reasons. For one, it's faster, which is what LED tries to do with Petals against certain matchups anyway. This version of the deck also makes for shorter games, both winning and losing. Lastly, this build is cheaper to build and keep up, which would free up the LED's and sideboard pieces I may need to sell when I'm strapped for cash. Is this an accurate line of thinking?

[Final Fortune]

So I'm thinking about joining the dark side and converting my LED Dredge to Manaless for a couple reasons. For one, it's faster, which is what LED tries to do with Petals against certain matchups anyway. This version of the deck also makes for shorter games, both winning and losing. Lastly, this build is cheaper to build and keep up, which would free up the LED's and sideboard pieces I may need to sell when I'm strapped for cash. Is this an accurate line of thinking?

Pretty much, it's also significantly more resilient to certain categories of graveyard hate like Surgical Extration or Tormod's Crypt that would be a significant impedimet to LED Dredge. The Unmask (or Gitaxian Probe) and Spy lists are really cheap to keep sleaved.

[dte]

So I'm thinking about joining the dark side and converting my LED Dredge to Manaless for a couple reasons. For one, it's faster, which is what LED tries to do with Petals against certain matchups anyway. This version of the deck also makes for shorter games, both winning and losing. Lastly, this build is cheaper to build and keep up, which would free up the LED's and sideboard pieces I may need to sell when I'm strapped for cash. Is this an accurate line of thinking?

Not completely accurate. LED dredge is much faster, not the opposite. And games tend not to be short, last tournament I took the deck in (last week), I went to time in two rounds out of 6, winning in the additional turns.

Cheaper, however, is true, but not by far. Only FoWs are expensive in manaless, and LED in LEDdredge.

[Final Fortune]

I'm pretty sure our fundamental turn is faster thanks to the combo, LED Dredge can explode out of the gate quicker but it actually takes some time to end the game with just Ichorids and Zombies. I suppose it depends on whether or not you count the turn you combo off or the turn you kill your opponent as the fundametal turn tho', it's kind of the Empty the Warrens argument.

[Michael Keller]

I'm pretty sure our fundamental turn is faster thanks to the combo, LED Dredge can explode out of the gate quicker but it actually takes some time to end the game with just Ichorids and Zombies. I suppose it depends on whether or not you count the turn you combo off or the turn you kill your opponent as the fundametal turn tho', it's kind of the Empty the Warrens argument.

I tend to agree with this. The saturation of creatures in Manaless is superior, and although we aren't as explosive out of the gate because of the lack of LED, LED Dredge tends to have more situations where it flames out when it tries to combo out or has to wait a turn in order to finish the game. Manaless doesn't have that problem as often, typically because it runs four Dread Return and more free creatures - even when you factor in the lack of a turn-one play.

[dte]

Yes, I consider that when turn one you cast 2 cabal therapies and have a full gy, you won T1, even if it takes four turns before your opponent eventually scoop or is put at 0 lifes. Doesn't it make more sense when you want to compare which deck is the fastest? I mean, you want to be fast because you want to win before your opponent wins or before RiP comes down for instance. Like LEDdredge has a good game racing ANT, manaless less ;) Or LEDdredge can easily beat D&T before they can do anything relevant.

by this definition (which is imo the more relevant one), LEDdredge "kills" quite regularly as often as T1, and regularly T2. manaless is a bit more than a full turn slower, I would say one and a half. Which is logical, as it is more resilient, much harder to stop and/or to slow down.

For EtW, it comes down as how the opponent can interact: if he cannot race gobs but a couple of turns give access to pierce, daze, flusterstorm, fow,... to prevent the storm player to cast EtW, I think it is fair to consider the turn you cast EtW as the kill turn. If your opponent can race or kills gobs, then it makes more sense to consider the one at which you actually win the game (or even better, both).

[ahg113]

Last played at the end of May (pg. 21'ish).

Took it out again this past Saturday for a 1k, that ended up being $500 due to a lack of participants (16 heads, top 8 payout, cut to top 4). The room was full of Miracle players (missed them all), a number of Lands (missed) and a few other tier decks (reanimator, etc.), nothing crazier than manaless.

Played nearly the same Horde Moar list, but swapped out the Nature's Claims and Undiscovered Paradise with 4 Contagion.

4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
2 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Nether Shadow
2 Ashen Ghoul
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ichorid
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bridge From Below
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion

TL,DR; finished 7th, was at 5th heading into the last of 4 rounds, record of 2-2.

Rd. 1 G - 12-Post
Playing against my friend, who knew what I was on before the day started. So I was actually excited to win the die roll.
G1
He cast a third turn Propaganda, which limited my beats to a narco hit, and two Ashen Ghoul hits. With the life gain effects though, he was at 23. This was a stalling game. I eventually find the combo and D.R. Flayer, D.R. Troll. I don't take damage in this game, keep his hand small with Therapies.
G2
I'm on the play. I lose to a SnT Emmy. I actually get part of my combo up and ready, but can't live long enough for recursive Flayer beats to get there. He also gets a Bog in, cut off at the knees to race Emmy.
G3
He's on the play. Horde Mode - some good flips, accelerated by a street wraith. Bridge tokens, ickys and narcos.

Rd. 2 Ryan M. - Shardless Bug (eventual #1 spot)
At some point, he judge calls for the reordering of cards going into yard from dredge. This used to phase me, but now it's just a time waster.
G1
He's on the play. I scooped this one, the variance gods were against me. Drew 4 times, no dredgers present. He had an active DRS, a Goyf and an agent (that got him A. Visions). When I called quits, I had 3 g. probes in hand, and drew 2 of them.
G2
He's on the play. Got there the good old fashioned way. Went with a S.W. activation on him trying to eat my troll, and a little more gas with a g.probe activation. I build an army slowly, and when I begin to do math with the Flayer and a board full of tokens and beats he scoops. (Was going to need another turn, couldn't kill him the turn Flayer returned.)
G3
I'm on the play. Welp, gonna get got. I contagioned his DRS, but he had a t3 graf digger cage, and thus, the game. Sided in the LED's and sort.

Rd. 3 David V. - LED Dredge
The perverted mirror'ish match. We're the only two dredge decks in the room, so of course we'd play each other. I win the die roll, he starts.
G1
We trade back and forth a bit, but his dredges aren't super explosive. He drops his hand without burning through his deck, nor finding bridges. I take some beats from a narco, imp and two ickies. On the flip side, a couple points pain from his lands, some return beats from icky, ghoul and shadow- he's almost dead when i D.R. Flayer, triggering Prized and he's dead on end step.
G2
He's on the play. (I forget to tell him this was a mistake at the end of the match.) He gets there by doing what the deck was designed to do. Flips one bridge and a few dredgers, goes hog wild on C. Coliseum, and flips a total of three bridges, and has all of the zombies and beats. I sided in the LED's and Lootings, but don't have them.
G3
He's on the play, mulls to five. Tight race first 3 turns but his flips don't add much. I take minimal hits from a narco, imp and icky. I return with two ickys, two tokens, two shadows. Find the Flayer, which combos with the Amalgams for the eot win. I take the Lootings and LED's back out.

Rd. 4 Ryan G. - Painter
won roll, which is good cause fat fingers flipped something in deck while shuffling. I knew he was on this as I saw earlier, but forgot initially. Not sure if it would've made a difference. This guy also judge called me on reordering the dredged cards. The humor is someone calls him out for being a dredge player in Vintage, le sigh.
G1
He's on the play. He attacked me down to 17 with a imp recruiter and painter servant, then a V. Pharaoh stops his advances. He damages himself with fetches and Ancient Tomb, and I attack him with a narco (stalled shadow) down to 12. He had an ensnaring bridge in play, and 1 card in hand. Eventually lost to the combo.
G2
He's on the play, mulled to 6. My turn 1, eot, he enlightened tutored for a R.I.P. And that's the game. I had a dakmor salvage in hand, and could've hypothetically cast some creatures eventually, but yeah...

So I finished 7/16, and the payout for 5-8 is the entry fee back, $25. I end up spending another $40'ish on a few lands for the sake of it, cause store credit?

I will be modifying the deck from the LED and Looting package to the blue side board. Between this day, and the last time, I didn't once live the dream of the fast LED-Looting start, and losing to hate is blah. Thinking a SB of:
4 Contagion
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal

Good times were had, the deck is grindy and combo. Shardless Bug in the hands of a pro like Ryan McKinney was a tall order, got lucky against a poor drawing 12-post, and got unlucky against Painter.

P.S.- Played Team Italia against my buddy with 12-post, and was either dominated, or in slow control. I love that deck, but it's so bad. Where is the Team Italia Siege Rhino?

P.P.S.- Spoke to a Miracles player that has the Whirlpool Rider Manaless list too. Explained the deck to him, the Horde Moar, and he seemed flumoxed. He disliked the -2 Bridge, -1 Therapy, -1 DR. But all the same, I like the Horde version just because it shows depth of construction. There are 3 flavors in my opinion, Spy, Rider/Kelpie, Horde. Let the tinkering and improvements continue.

[Echelon]

@agh: You know what would have been fun vs. Painter..?

Progenitus.

Turns the MU into 95/5 in your favor.

[slave]

I tend to agree with this. The saturation of creatures in Manaless is superior, and although we aren't as explosive out of the gate because of the lack of LED, LED Dredge tends to have more situations where it flames out when it tries to combo out or has to wait a turn in order to finish the game. Manaless doesn't have that problem as often, typically because it runs four Dread Return and more free creatures - even when you factor in the lack of a turn-one play.
I tend to agree here too. LED-dredge is all about landing a board presence early, and then riding those zombies/Ickys to victory whether they play gravehate or not.
Manaless is a turn or two slower, but has a critical mass feel about it given the bigger threat density.
After years of playing both decks, I feel the difference is all about post-board, as game1 for both decks is similar.
Postboard I feel LED-dredge and Manaless could both be argued as being the stronger or weaker of the two, but it depends greatly on what sort of opponents you may see, and what sort of hate you may expect to see also.

I think it's worth mentioning Terminus, especially if your opponent likes *instant* dropping it off a Top.
Terminus messes with LED dredge, forcing you to play slowly, and Monastery Mentor can really suck sometimes too. Same here with Manaless, but I feel that now we have Prized Amalgam, Terminus is more damaging for the LED-version of the deck.

[Mr. Froggy]

I think it's worth mentioning Terminus, especially if your opponent likes *instant* dropping it off a Top.
Terminus messes with LED dredge, forcing you to play slowly, and Monastery Mentor can really suck sometimes too. Same here with Manaless, but I feel that now we have Prized Amalgam, Terminus is more damaging for the LED-version of the deck.

I spoke exactly of this at one of my locals with a guy who is still playing Manaless like a real boss.

[Farone]

Hey there, i am starting to play with Manaless Dredge to play with the list from Jeremiah Wolfgang from 21st of augustus. I was wondering how you sideboard in general vs the known decks.
Thnx guys!!

[mistercakes]

don't worry about sb too much. if you read through the thread enough you'll see what to swap out, but mostly you'll want to play the maindeck really well before even worrying about the sb. (it's not a deck that mulligans well)

[Echelon]

For that list: Make sure you run 4 Thugs and 2 Shambling Shells, not 3/3.

[JackaBo]

Hello !

I'm considering putting a pile of manaless dredge together but I have the following question.

As I understand, you always want to draw first, then go to discard and either discard a dregder or phantasmagorian. You can not afford to mull since you wont be able to discard at end of your turn.

Can we beat a turn 1 Deathrite shaman (with a forest) unless we discrad phantasmagorian or hold a streetwraith? As far as I understand maindeck contagion won't do it, since you will only have 6 cards left and if opponent untaps with DRS he can just eat our discarded card every turn.

Thanks for your help, theSource!

[dte]

Hello !

I'm considering putting a pile of manaless dredge together but I have the following question.

As I understand, you always want to draw first, then go to discard and either discard a dregder or phantasmagorian. You can not afford to mull since you wont be able to discard at end of your turn.


Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.



Can we beat a turn 1 Deathrite shaman (with a forest) unless we discrad phantasmagorian or hold a streetwraith? As far as I understand maindeck contagion won't do it, since you will only have 6 cards left and if opponent untaps with DRS he can just eat our discarded card every turn.

Thanks for your help, theSource!

You identified correctly the phantasmaorian and Street Wraith play. There is also Chancellor of the Annex. You can also try just to put the dredger, as an opponent has the choice between removing it, gambling on the fact you do not hold Street Wraith, or chose to remove whatever creature would go out of your dredge to avoid Street Wraith blowout.

However, contagion is a fine line of play, especially if DRS has been played out of forest (no daze). It is not because you are down to six cards and lose two turns that you would lose the game. I had won games after having my graveyard removed and been close to hellbent. You'll lose most of them thought.

Good luck and have fun with manaless!

[Echelon]

What dte said. If you have an opening hand that's dead to whatever you expect to face, it might be wise to mulligan.

It's better to lose a turn so you can overcome that obstacle than to lose the game b/c you refused to mulligan.

[Snowfire]

Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.

Why would you mulligan a hand with only Shambling Shell? You can discard Shell, Dredge Shell the following turn and discard it again if no other dredger has been found. This sums up to Dredge 6 on T3. After a mulligan you can only be as fast as this if you find a Troll on your second hand. But even then Shell would be better because you would have already dredged 3 cards on the turn before finding useful stuff. Am I missing an important point here?

[Atherion]

Hello guys, also new to the deck, thanks to mr. Wolfgang, previously I played exclusively merfolk - with some success - but now I feel that the meta won't suit the deck well (eldrazi and DnT). Anyways I playtested with the deck online and immediately fell in love with it, one of the most creative decks that ever existed. I have read through some pages and decided to go with the spy list with 2x chancellor and progenitus MD, I lost a few games to not having progenitus so I really feel like he is worth having the 1 slot.

For SB I decided to go with:

4x FoW
3x disrupting shoal
3x contagion/shoal
2x faerie macabre
3x leyline of sanctity

I bought a playset of Unmask as well but I don't really like the card against brainstorm decks since they can hide the card or any deck actually that can just topdeck the hate.


I don't know if the 1 copy of ashen rider is really needed. What do you think? Also I need some advice on sideboarding, if anybody would be willing to discuss it through PM, I'd be thankful. :smile:

[Echelon]

@Atherion: Post an exact 60. Spies and FoW aren't necessarily the best fit. You need your blue count to be as high as possible.

[dte]

Why would you mulligan a hand with only Shambling Shell? You can discard Shell, Dredge Shell the following turn and discard it again if no other dredger has been found. This sums up to Dredge 6 on T3. After a mulligan you can only be as fast as this if you find a Troll on your second hand. But even then Shell would be better because you would have already dredged 3 cards on the turn before finding useful stuff. Am I missing an important point here?

I didn't say that I would mulligan a hand because it had only shell as a dredger. I said it should be considered. On a six-hands mulligan, you'll have a 60% chance to find either troll or imp, and so to be around on-par dredgewise to what the shell dredging would have done.
So you should consider the rest of the hand: no cards that are good to have in hand, such as CotA, FoW, probe, wraith? cards which are bad, like narcomoeba? maybe worth a mull then.
Vs an unknown opponent, I can easily mull a hand with only shell and no other action.

So to sum it up, I wanted to say that hands with Imp or troll are often snap-keep, with thug it is quite rare for me to mull, with shell I consider it.
But lately, I don't play shell anymore.

[Atherion]

@Atherion: Post an exact 60. Spies and FoW aren't necessarily the best fit. You need your blue count to be as high as possible.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow

4 Dread Return
3 Balustrade spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Chancellor of the annex

13 MD blue cards with possible other 7 out of the SB

[dte]

When did painter became the DTB?

[Echelon]

When did painter became the DTB?

Oh, if it only did.

[JackaBo]

Hello,

You definitely can mulligan. But every mulligan will slow you down by a full turn, so it is rarely worth it when you have a dredger in hand (if you play shambling shell and it is your only dredger in the opening hand, consider mulligan depending on your hand).
Serum powder is also an option.



You identified correctly the phantasmaorian and Street Wraith play. There is also Chancellor of the Annex. You can also try just to put the dredger, as an opponent has the choice between removing it, gambling on the fact you do not hold Street Wraith, or chose to remove whatever creature would go out of your dredge to avoid Street Wraith blowout.

However, contagion is a fine line of play, especially if DRS has been played out of forest (no daze). It is not because you are down to six cards and lose two turns that you would lose the game. I had won games after having my graveyard removed and been close to hellbent. You'll lose most of them thought.

Good luck and have fun with manaless!

Thanks for the quick answer. I think I would want to go with 4 chancellors then since I think the described scenario would come up quite often in my metagame and I would want 12 cards that protects my opening play.

I guess maindeck FOW is an option as well, but on the other hand: since you need it in your starting hand I guess that Chancellor does the same job in this specific situation, and chancellor is way better than FOW in the bin.

[Echelon]

@JackaBo: Be careful not to dilute your 60 too much, and remember speed kills too.

I used to run Chancellor and loved it when I did, but Prized Amalgam is just so much better. It puts so much pressure on your opponent to have the answer and makes it so much easier to beat your opponent into submission when he can protect himself from the combo. By cutting a dredger here and a recurring creature there, you undermine the foundation on which the deck is built. Especially cutting dredgers can be very dangerous.

For those that want to play FoW but not the blue Shoal - run Whirlpool Drake over the Whirlpool merfolk as your DR target. Moar triggers = moar value.

[Final Fortune]

Is Whirpool Drake the best blue target? No one played it before Whirpool Rider, so isn't River Kelpie the better choice?

Chancellor is a great card and should be in the 75 some where just for Deathrite Shaman and combo. I think it's easily better than creature removal as the better D&T players dont run multiple Containment Priest over other lock pieces.

[Echelon]

They didn't play it b/c of the blue Shoal. River Kelpie can also be a thing, but stirs up a shitstorm of triggers. Drake is easier to work through.

[JackaBo]

@JackaBo: Be careful not to dilute your 60 too much, and remember speed kills too.

I used to run Chancellor and loved it when I did, but Prized Amalgam is just so much better. It puts so much pressure on your opponent to have the answer and makes it so much easier to beat your opponent into submission when he can protect himself from the combo. By cutting a dredger here and a recurring creature there, you undermine the foundation on which the deck is built. Especially cutting dredgers can be very dangerous.

For those that want to play FoW but not the blue Shoal - run Whirlpool Drake over the Whirlpool merfolk as your DR target. Moar triggers = moar value.

Thanks for the input
I was actually planing to dilute my deck of DR-targets as chancellor is decent target herself, I suppose.
I'm not much for netdecking so here's what I've been toying with:

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/233786

I'm happy for comments on the list



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Final Fortune]

They didn't play it b/c of the blue Shoal. River Kelpie can also be a thing, but stirs up a shitstorm of triggers. Drake is easier to work through.

I don't remember it being played before Shoal at all tho', and I've been playing this deck since its inception. I just assumed the other blue alternatives were better for some reason. Regardless I'm sure any Whirpool is more than enough to win, I just can't remember whether or not there was a good reason for us not playing it over the alternatives back in the day or if it was just an overlooked card. I'm guessing it had something to do with Phantasmagrian discarding cards before hand or Whirlpool Drake not discarding cards after the fact? Anybody else go that far back?

[Michael Keller]

At this point, if you're playing the Force version you really should be running Shoals no matter what. The point of Force isn't just to give you more protection against fast combo - it's to help you stop hate cards from hitting the board. Disrupting Shoal gives you that added redundancy so you don't have to play cards like Serum Powder fishing for a Force, and this deck really can't afford to mulligan aggressively. So with that, you're really better off just running Whirlpool Rider because it helps augment Shoals against Rest in Peace, Scavenging Ooze or other two-mana spells that could be troublesome.

The biggest issue I have with Shoal at the moment is its inability to interact with one-mana hate spells. Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian help against cards like Surgical and Deathrite Shaman, which is obviously nice. But alll we have right now to augment Shoal is Gitaxian Probe, which is fine I guess. But if your goal is to beat Grafdigger's Cage then the only real outcome would be Force and blue card. This is where I feel Chancellor shines, because it stops the deck's worst-case scenarios to start the game and lets you be able to discard or draw counter-magic off the top for added protection. Over time I've seen it become an unsung hero of sorts, because there's no turn more critical to this deck's success than surviving your opponents' first-turn plays aiming to end or control the game before you discard. I wasn't a big fan of it for a while, but that changed the more and more I played it.

Offering protection in scenarios such as:

*Turn-one Deathrite Shaman...
*Turn-one discard spell (Therapy, Thoughtseize, etc.)...
*Turn-one Cage...
*Explosive turn-one combo acceleration...

...You all get the picture.

[Atherion]

Makes sense but if you run chancellors and you want to bring in 4x fow and 3x shoal and even have to keep in the probes for helping countering cages, 7 is a mighty number to bring in with a combo deck, what do you side out?

Or when you're facing storm and have 3 additional white Leylines?

[Michael Keller]

Makes sense but if you run chancellors and you want to bring in 4x fow and 3x shoal and even have to keep in the probes for helping countering cages, 7 is a mighty number to bring in with a combo deck, what do you side out?

I run three Forces main, so I'd have to know what your entire list looks like. I am also currently only running three Phantasmagorian, something I'm not sure if everyone (or anyone) knew. I've had no problems with it, because the four Chancellors have stunted Deathrite Shaman turn-one from being a factor. Three tends to be a nice number for me at this point, although that can always change.


Or when you're facing storm and have 3 additional white Leylines?

This is dependent again on the main-deck. I also run three in the board.

[Atherion]

yes, I have read that you run 3, I immediately liked the idea :-) my maindeck is on the previous page, but I will probably go +1 chancellor, -1 shell

[Michael Keller]

yes, I have read that you run 3, I immediately liked the idea :-) my maindeck is on the previous page, but I will probably go +1 chancellor, -1 shell

One thing to note though: I would never run three Phantasmagorians unless I'm running Chancellor, too. Otherwise, that stays a four-of.

[korstructure]

Would love to see your current list, Hollywood.

In what metas do you recommend your version vs. SB FoW vs. no FoW versions?

[Michael Keller]

My current list:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Prized Amalgam
[3x] Gitaxian Probe
[3x] Phantasmagorian
[3x] Force of Will
[1x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Balustrade Spy
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[3x] Disrupting Shoal
[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Leyline of Sanctity
[2x] Ashen Rider
[1x] Force of Will

In metas lower on permanent-based graveyard hate, play the non-Force version with the green sideboard. In areas that are saturated with Rest in Peace and Cages - and you want to play Manaless - run the Force version. You could also do this in a combo-heavy meta, as well.

[vieko]

In metas lower on permanent-based graveyard hate, play the non-Force version with the green sideboard. In areas that are saturated with Rest in Peace and Cages - and you want to play Manaless - run the Force version. You could also do this in a combo-heavy meta, as well.

This is excellent advise. Small thing to add: I've been running Spirit of the Hearth in place of Leyline of Sanctity – Flyer that beats my opponent on top of the hexproof... feels better to me.

[Michael Keller]

This is excellent advise. Small thing to add: I've been running Spirit of the Hearth in place of Leyline of Sanctity – Flyer that beats my opponent on top of the hexproof... feels better to me.

Thanks.

The problem with cards like this is that you need to be able to survive against fast combo long enough to Dread Return it into play. When you're casting Dread Return, you should either be winning or have the game virtually won. Leyline of Sanctity comes down before an opponent has a chance to interact and immediately punishes questionable keeps, while also protecting you immediately from cards that would lock you down or slow you down like Relic, discard, Crypt, etc. Even Iona would be better than this card for what it does, because it's a faster clock, shuts down opposing decks' key colors and is in a vacuum much more powerful.

I would eschew Spirit for Leyline though; there's really no comparison.

[Warden]

Thanks.

The problem with cards like this is that you need to be able to survive against fast combo long enough to Dread Return it into play. When you're casting Dread Return, you should either be winning or have the game virtually won. Leyline of Sanctity comes down before an opponent has a chance to interact and immediately punishes questionable keeps, while also protecting you immediately from cards that would lock you down or slow you down like Relic, discard, Crypt, etc. Even Iona would be better than this card for what it does, because it's a faster clock, shuts down opposing decks' key colors and is in a vacuum much more powerful.

I would eschew Spirit for Leyline though; there's really no comparison.

Agreed in full. The reason to run Leyline is because you're conceding the fact that you will likely lose to [insert deck you bring it in for] before you get going yourself. Iona is also the superior DR target.

@Hollywood: You don't feel low on dredge pieces (13)?

[Echelon]

Yup, why bother with Spirit of the Heart when you can just DR Spy/Whirlpool guy and win that turn?

[Ubeltaeter]

7- Rollan Julien - DREDGE - Bom Paris Legacy

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Nether Shadow
2 Whirlpool Rider
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 2 Unmask
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 Contagion

[Echelon]

Congrats!

[dte]

You don't feel low on dredge pieces (13)?

I believe it is wrong to consider all the cards with the keyword "dredge" written on them together. Writing 13 like that, and knowing you absolutely need one in your opener, it seems that running 14 or 15 is miles better.
But there is a huge gap between shell and thug, which is already not that good. So in Hollywood's list it is the 12 4+ dredgers and 1 shell here. In Julien's list is 12 the 12 4+ dredgers without any shell.

[Final Fortune]

Shambling Shell is more important than the 14+ dredger for mulligans, it's a redundant dredger for Phantasmagorian to protect you vs Deathrite Shaman. 12 Dredgers makes really little sense, there's nothing that important you need to add to sacrifice redundacy for it.

[dte]

Shambling Shell is more important than the 14+ dredger for mulligans, it's a redundant dredger for Phantasmagorian to protect you vs Deathrite Shaman. 12 Dredgers makes really little sense, there's nothing that important you need to add to sacrifice redundacy for it.

I disagree that it is actually redundancy. I never saw "dredge 4-6" written on it.
Going on with only shell remaining (otherwise it is irrelevant) against an active DRS is not a winning strategy. The very idea that shell is more beneficial against DRS than CotA is a bit strange, especially as it is good vs DRS only in the cases were: i) you have phantasmagorian and exactly one real dredger (+shell); ii) in your first dredge 3 you find 2 dredgers or a dredger and a phantasmagorian; iii) you do not have a Street wraith.
The probability to have these three and a DRS on the other side is not that high. And even with all of that going, you're still in an uphill battle.

I would argue that the playsets of FoW and CotA win more games than shambling shell will ever do.

[Final Fortune]

It doesn't say Dredge 4 thru' 6 on it, it says don't mullugian to 6 on it.

Talking about cards as if they are mutually exclusive is pointless, the deck has flex slots for either Force of Will, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex or Gitaxian Probe, you can play whatever you like and side however you see fit. The odds of seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 12 Dredgers and seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 16 Dredgers isn't insigificant, just like the odds of seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 12 Dredgers and seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 14+ Dredgers isn't insigificant either. Comulative consistency in a tournament setting matters far more than people think it does or would have themselves believe.

I think there's a serious misconception about what cards do and don't contribute to the deck's game 1 win% in this thread and cutting Shambling Shell in Dredge is the equivalent of cutting lands in any other deck. Yes, cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow and Dread Return are the weakest cards in the deck and can be reduced in number, but when you replace them for superflous disruption game 1 or you replace them with Gitaxian Probe and fail to track the number of games it just gets countered and reduces your hand size or isn't a creature to recur Nether Shadow with you'll fail to see why business is just better than X.

I like Force of Will just as much as the next guy, but it's worse than other disruption options game 1 and the blue Dredge Return targets often make me think the deck might be fooling itself with counters and combo kills when it should just be running Chancellors of the Annex in the combo creature slots, Unmask in the MD and a SB designed to slow faster decks and resign itself to hate to just grind wins thru' pure consistency.

Cut whatever you like, but the odds of you comming back to Shambling Shell are pretty likely if the history of this thread holds true.

Edit: The green SB has never worked out, it is such a desperate attempt at stopping something compared to just gaining EV vs format predators like Storm.

[Warden]

It doesn't say Dredge 4 thru' 6 on it, it says don't mullugian to 6 on it.

Talking about cards as if they are mutually exclusive is pointless, the deck has flex slots for either Force of Will, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex or Gitaxian Probe, you can play whatever you like and side however you see fit. The odds of seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 12 Dredgers and seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 16 Dredgers isn't insigificant, just like the odds of seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 12 Dredgers and seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 14+ Dredgers isn't insigificant either. Comulative consistency in a tournament setting matters far more than people think it does or would have themselves believe.

I think there's a serious misconception about what cards do and don't contribute to the deck's game 1 win% in this thread and cutting Shambling Shell in Dredge is the equivalent of cutting lands in any other deck. Yes, cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow and Dread Return are the weakest cards in the deck and can be reduced in number, but when you replace them for superflous disruption game 1 or you replace them with Gitaxian Probe and fail to track the number of games it just gets countered and reduces your hand size or isn't a creature to recur Nether Shadow with you'll fail to see why business is just better than X.

I like Force of Will just as much as the next guy, but it's worse than other disruption options game 1 and the blue Dredge Return targets often make me think the deck might be fooling itself with counters and combo kills when it should just be running Chancellors of the Annex in the combo creature slots, Unmask in the MD and a SB designed to slow faster decks and resign itself to hate to just grind wins thru' pure consistency.

Cut whatever you like, but the odds of you comming back to Shambling Shell are pretty likely if the history of this thread holds true.

Edit: The green SB has never worked out, it is such a desperate attempt at stopping something compared to just gaining EV vs format predators like Storm.

Thank you. I asked the initial question. Reading answers had me feeling stupid until reading this (I mean I'm still dumb, but I didn't know if I missed some recent tech or discoveries).

[vieko]

Yup, why bother with Spirit of the Heart when you can just DR Spy/Whirlpool guy and win that turn?

When you put it like this Echelon, it doesn't make much sense does it? :)

[Echelon]

When you put it like this Echelon, it doesn't make much sense does it? :)

I have trouble telling if you're being sarcastic or not, lol.

[dte]

It doesn't say Dredge 4 thru' 6 on it, it says don't mullugian to 6 on it.

Talking about cards as if they are mutually exclusive is pointless, the deck has flex slots for either Force of Will, Unmask, Chancellor of the Annex or Gitaxian Probe, you can play whatever you like and side however you see fit. The odds of seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 12 Dredgers and seeing Phantasmagorian and 2 Dredgers with 16 Dredgers isn't insigificant, just like the odds of seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 12 Dredgers and seeing 1 Dredger in your mulligan with 14+ Dredgers isn't insigificant either. Comulative consistency in a tournament setting matters far more than people think it does or would have themselves believe.

I still think you are dead wrong about writing 14 dredgers. It is 12 dredgers and 2 shambling shells. But I fully disagree that shell reduces mulligan that much as I tried shell, and with it as the only dredger in my opening hand, I mulliganed a third of the hands. Depending on the MU I sometimes mull hands with Golgari Thug in it. I have cut shells couple of years ago, and did not look into playing them again anytime soon. I would play 1-2 serum powder before that for sure.


I think there's a serious misconception about what cards do and don't contribute to the deck's game 1 win% in this thread and cutting Shambling Shell in Dredge is the equivalent of cutting lands in any other deck. Yes, cards like Shambling Shell, Nether Shadow and Dread Return are the weakest cards in the deck and can be reduced in number, but when you replace them for superflous disruption game 1 or you replace them with Gitaxian Probe and fail to track the number of games it just gets countered and reduces your hand size or isn't a creature to recur Nether Shadow with you'll fail to see why business is just better than X.

Last WE, on the 20 matches we played with the exact same list Julien and me (I played manaless only at the friday trial, not the bom event), we won 19 game one (not statistically relevant, but well). We won a fair share of our games one thanks to FoW and/or CotA (we played 6 combo decks and 2 infect). With a shell there, it would have been losses. I don't see what is "superfluous" in having disruption, knowing that roughly one fifth of the decks are faster than us, one third play DRS. You say mulliganing is bad because it is a time walk? I say the disruption often gives you a time walk as well.
To go back to your land analogy, Shambling shells come into play tapped. In most decks I would rather play one less land rather than replace one with a comes into play tapped effect.


I like Force of Will just as much as the next guy, but it's worse than other disruption options game 1 and the blue Dredge Return targets often make me think the deck might be fooling itself with counters and combo kills when it should just be running Chancellors of the Annex in the combo creature slots, Unmask in the MD and a SB designed to slow faster decks and resign itself to hate to just grind wins thru' pure consistency.

Cut whatever you like, but the odds of you comming back to Shambling Shell are pretty likely if the history of this thread holds true.

Running combo creature in the Chancellors of the Annex slots does not make much sense. First because against most decks, a reanimated CotA equates a win, second because revealing a merfolk never did anything. It is funny you speak about unmask instead of FoW MD and then insist on not getting timewalk'ed by mulliganing to 6: FoW is much better tempo-wise than unmask will ever be.

[Namida]

It is funny you speak about unmask instead of FoW MD and then insist on not getting timewalk'ed by mulliganing to 6: FoW is much better tempo-wise than unmask will ever be.

For someone who doesn't want to get time walked by mulliganning to 6, doesn't Unmask make sense because you can Unmask yourself instead of relying on the Cleanup step to get things done? If you're playing the full set of Chancellors it sounds like you would gain a lot of tempo if you were put on the play, revealed a Chancellor, and just put a dredger in the graveyard on your first turn.

[dte]

For someone who doesn't want to get time walked by mulliganning to 6, doesn't Unmask make sense because you can Unmask yourself instead of relying on the Cleanup step to get things done? If you're playing the full set of Chancellors it sounds like you would gain a lot of tempo if you were put on the play, revealed a Chancellor, and just put a dredger in the graveyard on your first turn.

I would be more comfortable here by just discard at cleanup and having a fow to save me from whatever my opponent has which is really threatening. Best thing is to win with fow & pitch in hand.
Tempowise, you are not necesserily better either. Your opponent will get what he paid for.

[Michael Keller]

For me personally, I've never liked Unmask in that capacity, even though I understand and respect the fact that it can enable faster dredging and protection against a turn-one Deathrite Shaman. However, if I were playing Unmask, I would want either more Shells or a full set of Phantasmagorian. The potential is there to whiff while triple-Time Walking your opponent, which is extremely bad. Granted, there are some card combinations that could get you out of that scenario (like Therapy and a Narcomoeba or hitting a Phantasmagorian), but is it really worth the risk to use it in that capacity?

I'd much rather personally stick with Chancellor and play Street Wraith and some number of Phantasmagorian. Force doesn't have to be main, but it certainly helps in the flex slots main to alleviate sideboard space. I kind of keep being haunted by Serum Powder, because I want to believe this card was just made for a deck like this. There's just so much redundancy in there that I'm not sold that it (Powder) being something else is better than some other card it would theoretically be replacing, because its effect is incredibly unique.

I've shelved the card multiple times to try different combinations, but I'm beginning to wonder if playing a pair is optimal.

[Final Fortune]

Serum Powder is a reasonable substiution for Shambling Shell on the mulligan, but for the rest of the game you're losing density for Nether Shadow and a target for Ichorid, so it does't necessarily make the deck any more consistent.

If you mulligan every hand with Shambling Shell, then that's your player error and not the deck's fault, as Dredge 3 is preferable to Dredge 5 and a Time Walk vs a lot of match ups game 1. Also the problem of 12 Dredgers just compounds itself mulligan after mulligan, because you have less odds to draw a Dredger on your first mulligan and will have to double Time Walk your opponent i.e. concede vs anything that isn't Miracles.

I think you're kidding yourself if you believe that Force of Will is going to save you vs. combo when they have at least 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress to bypass your disruption, and while Force of Will is better vs Deathrite Shaman it requires you to play blue reanimation targets and/or Gitaxian Probes for a blue count that is no where as consistent as the black count is for Unmask. Where Unmask is better than Force of Will is that it's never a dead card in your hand and it doesn't dictate that you have to keep those blue creatures and spells in your deck to support it, so you can either more easily SB in other answers for combo or SB in Unmask as one of those answers to combo if you MD the combo creatures and the Chancellor of the Annex in the 4 flex slots.

I don't think you understood my point but you supported it with your reply, the blue combo creatures aren't really necessary for anything other than supporting Force of Will because reanimating Chancellor of the Annex is just as good as Whirlpool Rider/Flayer of the Hatebound at ending the game, so why not remove the combo creatures for Chancellor of the Annex for utility, keep the Shambling Shells for consistency, play Unmask for disruption and just SB in Mindbreak Trap for Storm? You have maximum redundancy for Deathrite Shaman and keep your outside chance vs combo by cutting Force of Will and blue combo creatures and can keep the SB space for other options vs Reanimator or whatever.

Sure, there will be games where your opponent chooses to play first, draws a turn 1 hand and decides to take the coin flip vs Force of Will, but really what the disruption slot does is make the opponent spend B first in order to go off safely. So it's not that Force of Will isn't a better card than Unmask, it's that Force of Will costs you else where to play it and they sort of accomplish the same thing regardless vs combo.

In case the list I'm talking about isn't clear from the context of the argument, I mean something like;

MD

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Spirit
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Annex

SB

4 Mindbreak Trap

[dte]

I think you're kidding yourself if you believe that Force of Will is going to save you vs. combo when they have at least 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 Duress to bypass your disruption,

I have played storm and I have played against storm more than a couple of time with manaless.
FoW is an excellent card. It is by no means a bullet-proof solution, but needing to play a discard quite often requires storm to lose a turn. I have won games only because my opponent sees FoW being dredged, and play a cabal naming it instead of trying to go off. Next turn I can win and/or therapy him.
We are a very fast deck, especially considering at which speed we fire our therapies, which are the important cards in the combo MU. Putting them in the position to chose between going off and risking to die to FoW or waiting and risking the therapy is a very sound approach.


If you mulligan every hand with Shambling Shell, then that's your player error and not the deck's fault, as Dredge 3 is preferable to Dredge 5 and a Time Walk vs a lot of match ups game 1.

I wrote a third, not every. If you keep every hand with shambling shell, then it is your player error. :)
I definitely prefer an average 6 cards hand with a dredge 5 in it than a full grip with shell but no action (SW, probe, CotA, FoW).



it requires you to play blue reanimation targets and/or Gitaxian Probes for a blue count

Actually I would run a whirlpool target even if I wasn't playing FoW. It is arguably the best possible reanimation target. Probe is a free draw, I run it too because of its power, not for FoW.


I don't think you understood my point but you supported it with your reply, the blue combo creatures aren't really necessary for anything other than supporting Force of Will because reanimating Chancellor of the Annex is just as good as Whirlpool Rider/Flayer of the Hatebound at ending the game, so why not remove the combo creatures for Chancellor of the Annex for utility, keep the Shambling Shells for consistency, play Unmask for disruption and just SB in Mindbreak Trap for Storm?

It seems that you believe that storm is everywhere. FoW is just an excellent card against 90% of the field, not just storm. I FoW plenty of other cards ranging from thalia, BS, some DRS, Young pyro, bolt, terminus, invigorate, NO, glimpse, daze, Fow,...

Regarding your list, you play 16 creatures that come back from your Gy and 12+4 dredgers. Yes, no doubt it is very consistent. Much more than anything I would play. But not very able to do anything else than hoping this plan works. Manaless is a very consistent deck, with strong weaknesses. Why try to increase the consistency?
Indulge me to draw a parallel to another deck that I master better. For me, elves is the deck I played with the most. Your list looks like the one which are playing 4 heritage druid, 4 nettle and 2-3 birchlore, while I always favoured lists containing Ooze, sage and WR packmaster MD.

[Final Fortune]

There's no point in using a blue dread return target over a black dread return target if you aren't playing Foce of Will, and while Gitaxian Probe is a good card for gold fishing I think it makes the deck vulnerable to counters which reduce the hand size below 8 for draw, discard, dredge.

Ofcourse you Force of Will other targets, the same as you Unmask other targets. The only difference is Force of Will is better vs combo, Deathrite Shaman and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben than Unmask at the cost of being less consistent in terms of the total number of cards you have to pitch to it and more restrictive in terms of the cards you have to play to pitch to it. Unmask makes up ground by being more consistent in terms of the total number of cards you have to pitch to it and the fact that you can remove otherwise worthless, blue creatures from the deck in favour of a card that does something when drawn.

The entire point of playing Manaless Dredge is the consistency, the less consistent people have made the deck for whatever reason the worse it has faired, and considering no one plays hate that would punish Manaless Dredge for relying on the combat phase as opposed to the combo to win the game I don't see any reason to play blanks in the deck just for Force of Will when Chancellor of the Annex can cap the point vs Storm and you can just keep turning creatures side ways.

Regardless of how you stack the deck, cutting Force of Will and relying on Unmask and Mind Break trap vs the Storm match up lets you fit in 4 more anti-storm cards by switching out the blue creatures that support Force of Will for disruption of any kind. And keeping the blue count for Force of Will, be it by blue having blue creatures or cutting Shambling Shell eventually costs you in terms of total disruption and overall consistency.

I don't think Storm is every where, I bring up Storm a lot because it's one of the only archetypes that are faster than us and that we can SB for. Being as consistent as possible with 16 Dredgers, as resistent as possible vs Deathrite Shaman and having a card that keeps the opponent off of a T3 gold fish is just as important to me and why I'm looking at Unmask over Force of Will, Chancellor of the Annex over combo creatures and not cutting Shambling Shell.

I don't think Dredge needs a plan B like Elves, it has near infinite resource generation in comparison, but if Moat (or whatever) were to become an issue then a combo kill could take up 3 slots in the SB. It basically only makes us vulnerable vs lands game 1, which is really rare to see across the table. And considering we picked up Amalgram to add to the beats clock, I don't think the combo is really necessary for speed as opposed to just sphereing the opponent.

[dte]

There's no point in using a blue dread return target over a black dread return target if you aren't playing Foce of Will, and while Gitaxian Probe is a good card for gold fishing I think it makes the deck vulnerable to counters which reduce the hand size below 8 for draw, discard, dredge.

River kelpie was played before FoW. I would still run a blue target without FoW, most probably whirlpool drake. It instantly wins the game. What black target can beat the whirlpools?


Ofcourse you Force of Will other targets, the same as you Unmask other targets. The only difference is Force of Will is better vs combo, Deathrite Shaman and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben than Unmask at the cost of being less consistent in terms of the total number of cards you have to pitch to it and more restrictive in terms of the cards you have to play to pitch to it. Unmask makes up ground by being more consistent in terms of the total number of cards you have to pitch to it and the fact that you can remove otherwise worthless, blue creatures from the deck in favour of a card that does something when drawn.

Forget about the pitch consistency. It is a non issue. You have a lot of pitches, largely enough. Presideboard I play 17 U card, it is close to what infect, shardless, reanimator are playing. Try it, you'll see that the no pitch situation happen, but is quite uncommon (less than 10% of cases).


The entire point of playing Manaless Dredge is the consistency, the less consistent people have made the deck for whatever reason the worse it has faired, and considering no one plays hate that would punish Manaless Dredge for relying on the combat phase as opposed to the combo to win the game I don't see any reason to play blanks in the deck just for Force of Will when Chancellor of the Annex can cap the point vs Storm and you can just keep turning creatures side ways.

I don't know with what you are backing your first assertion. On the no one is playing a hate that would punish the use of main phase damage, I fully disagree. At least half of the legacy decks can use the additional turn you give them to either kill you or prevent you to kill them.



Regardless of how you stack the deck, cutting Force of Will and relying on Unmask and Mind Break trap vs the Storm match up lets you fit in 4 more anti-storm cards by switching out the blue creatures that support Force of Will for disruption of any kind. And keeping the blue count for Force of Will, be it by blue having blue creatures or cutting Shambling Shell eventually costs you in terms of total disruption and overall consistency.

If you start to put 4 cards in your 75 that are good against a single MU, represented in the 5-10% range, and not a bad one at that, I do believe that you have a deckbuilding problem.



I don't think Storm is every where, I bring up Storm a lot because it's one of the only archetypes that are faster than us and that we can SB for.

Pray tell me, why are you even listing only 4 cards in SB, and these four cards happen to be Mindbreak Trap then?


Being as consistent as possible with 16 Dredgers, as resistent as possible vs Deathrite Shaman and having a card that keeps the opponent off of a T3 gold fish is just as important to me and why I'm looking at Unmask over Force of Will, Chancellor of the Annex over combo creatures and not cutting Shambling Shell.

The thing is you can write 16 dredgers as much as you want and claim consistency, it is simply not true. Shambling shell is nowhere close to the first 12 dredgers.
It is like saying that you added 4 sleight of hands to your 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder, and so with 12 cantrips you have more consistency.


I don't think Dredge needs a plan B like Elves, it has near infinite resource generation in comparison, but if Moat (or whatever) were to become an issue then a combo kill could take up 3 slots in the SB. It basically only makes us vulnerable vs lands game 1, which is really rare to see across the table. And considering we picked up Amalgram to add to the beats clock, I don't think the combo is really necessary for speed as opposed to just sphereing the opponent.

Only vulnerable to lands? ?
While I agree CotA is excellent vs most decks, there is a good reason why Maverick & DT (thalia) or Mud (Lodestone) are not the uncontested DTBs. It is not a gg by any means.
Especially if there is already a threatening board state across the table.

[korstructure]

This deck took 6th at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

Thoughts on the list?

Some notables:

3x MD Chancellor
4x SB Force of Will
2x SB Whirlpool Rider
3x SB Sickening Shoal and no Contagion



http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15374S/

[ahg113]

This deck took 6th at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

Thoughts on the list?

Some notables:

3x MD Chancellor
4x SB Force of Will
2x SB Whirlpool Rider
3x SB Sickening Shoal and no Contagion



http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15374S/

The finish is impressive. Not really understanding anything beyond the decklist- it looks like that happy place of inclusion with both disruption and protection. Not surprised it's a Spy list. I'm not as big on spy as other choices, but it's worth trying out. I'd be interested in hearing the rationale between swapping from the Spy to Rider option, maybe if it's just a straight - is this person playing storm, or going to make a T1 play that needs countering (which could almost include anything with cage or a quick RiP).

[Echelon]

Manaless is a very consistent deck, with strong weaknesses. Why try to increase the consistency?
Indulge me to draw a parallel to another deck that I master better. For me, elves is the deck I played with the most. Your list looks like the one which are playing 4 heritage druid, 4 nettle and 2-3 birchlore, while I always favoured lists containing Ooze, sage and WR packmaster MD.

B/c it increases the number of times you manage to win on T2. Speed is as dangerous as any counter. You force your opponent to "have it", if they don't they die the following turn.


River kelpie was played before FoW. I would still run a blue target without FoW, most probably whirlpool drake. It instantly wins the game. What black target can beat the whirlpools?

Well... Balustrade Spy > Drake as long as you don't play lands (obviously). And Griselbrand is pretty badass too. DR'ing Griselbrand can be enough to take over a game without executing the rest of your combo. It can also draw into your precious counters, be it FoW or Mindbreak Trap. Try doing that with a Drake in response to something being cast.


The finish is impressive. Not really understanding anything beyond the decklist- it looks like that happy place of inclusion with both disruption and protection. Not surprised it's a Spy list. I'm not as big on spy as other choices, but it's worth trying out. I'd be interested in hearing the rationale between swapping from the Spy to Rider option, maybe if it's just a straight - is this person playing storm, or going to make a T1 play that needs countering (which could almost include anything with cage or a quick RiP.

Spy is the shit, dude.

Anyways, how much longer are we going to bitch about Shambling Shell? It's a shitty dredger, but probably a necessary evil. Games where you start out with any other dredger have a better chance of ending well than those you start with Shell, but games where you start with Shell are by no means lost from the get go. Alrighty? Moving on.

In other things - I might be piloting Manaless tomorrow. Now, I'm on a Spy-list but can't for the life of me figure out where to cram in a set of Chancellors across the 75. Here's the 75 I'm on right now:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

Thing is, I both want to be able to kill creatures and improve my Storm MU. Seriously, watching an opponent trying to squirm their way out of Vengeful Pharaoh is fucking hilarious.

Anywho, anybody got any suggestions on what 4 cards to cut?

Edit: At the moment I'm thinking -1 DR, -1 Spy, -1 Probe and -1 Phantasmagorian in favor of +4 Chancellor of the Annex. Keep in as much business as possible, have Chancellor as backup DR target. DR'ing Chancellor should be sufficient in lieu of Spy vs. Storm. At least to buy the time you need to finish the Storm pilot off.

[dte]

Well... Balustrade Spy > Drake as long as you don't play lands (obviously). And Griselbrand is pretty badass too. DR'ing Griselbrand can be enough to take over a game without executing the rest of your combo. It can also draw into your precious counters, be it FoW or Mindbreak Trap. Try doing that with a Drake in response to something being cast.

Spy is the shit, dude.

[...]
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus


I understand that spy and griselbrand can be pitched to ichorid, but fail to understand how that this make them so much better that it overcome their terrible drawbacks. Griselbrand is not that hot once you cannot activate it, which is far from uncommon. In your list, it seems you are playing a progenitus MD, aka one of the worst possible cards for the deck, just to accommodate it. I know it is not necessary MD, but is quite common in SBs. Losing a SB slot only to have your DR target pitch to ichorid looks silly to me. Not to mention that whirlpool is better at playing around hate such as tormod or relic.



Anywho, anybody got any suggestions on what 4 cards to cut?

Shell, shadow, progenitus?

[Echelon]

@dte: Thank you for your suggestions. Perhaps I will cut a Shell so I can keep in Probe no. 4.

Progenitus is one of the best cards in the deck. It says I only need to resolve 1 DR to ensure I win the game. All I have to do is resolve the Spy trigger before I can start pounding my opponent for 30+ combat damage turn after turn (and this is a scenario where I do not get a single token from my Bridges, which I think is a very fair assumption). How many decks out there can power through that? And as long as you can discard Progenitus to handsize you can't deck yourself, now can you :wink:.

As for Griselbrand: Yes, a 7/7 flying, lifelinker is a worthless thing to have. If your opponent doesn't have an answer to it, it probably stops them right in their tracks. If they don't, you're probably up anywhere between 7 to 14 life by the end of your next turn. And they're dead a couple of turns later. Sure, you fold to Karakas, but what do you do?

Edit:

Not to mention that whirlpool is better at playing around hate such as tormod or relic.

You play around Tormod by keeping your hand full, you play around Relic by dumping a few cards in your graveyard at the same time and then keeping your hand full. That has nothing to do with Spies or Whirlpool creatures, that's just making sure you can restart the engine after they pop their GY sweeper.

[dte]

Progenitus is one of the best cards in the deck. It says I only need to resolve 1 DR to ensure I win the game.
All I have to do is resolve the Spy trigger before I can start pounding my opponent for 30+ combat damage turn after turn (and this is a scenario where I do not get a single token from my Bridges, which I think is a very fair assumption). How many decks out there can power through that?

Whirlpool says exactly the same, but without needing to have a progenitus in your deck. I have reanimated him hundreds of times, and never lost a game where reanimating spy would have won. I won some game where reanimating spy would not have been possible though.


As for Griselbrand: Yes, a 7/7 flying, lifelinker is a worthless thing to have. If your opponent doesn't have an answer to it, it probably stops them right in their tracks. If they don't, you're probably up anywhere between 7 to 14 life by the end of your next turn. And they're dead a couple of turns later. Sure, you fold to Karakas, but what do you do?

I do not say that grisel is bad. I say it is less good than a creature on which there is written, when it enters the battlefield, win the game.


You play around Tormod by keeping your hand full, you play around Relic by dumping a few cards in your graveyard at the same time and then keeping your hand full. That has nothing to do with Spies or Whirlpool creatures, that's just making sure you can restart the engine after they pop their GY sweeper.

Yes, you have to keep your hand full but you also have to try to make them crack it ASAP. Waiting a couple of turns because they can afford to wait delay when you'll start to go off for real. And while Reanimating a Spy is impossible (they will say "sure" and remove your gy in response to the narco triggers), you can reanimate whirlpool and decide exactly how many dredge you do, forcing them to crack it while discarding your dredger in the end of the turn with half your library waiting.

[Echelon]

Yes, you have to keep your hand full but you also have to try to make them crack it ASAP. Waiting a couple of turns because they can afford to wait delay when you'll start to go off for real. And while Reanimating a Spy is impossible (they will say "sure" and remove your gy in response to the narco triggers), you can reanimate whirlpool and decide exactly how many dredge you do, forcing them to crack it while discarding your dredger in the end of the turn with half your library waiting.

Most people are horrible with that. 90% of the time that thing gets cracked right after your first dredge, lol. Bunch of crazies.

[Michael Keller]

Most people are horrible with that. 90% of the time that thing gets cracked right after your first dredge, lol. Bunch of crazies.

The interesting thing about that is that most of the players - very good players - I've ran into don't play Relic in their board. It's always usually Extraction, Cage or Rest in Peace. Relic sees play in non-blue sideboards, so perhaps it's a result of non-blue players not being as skilled as blue players? (Sounds biased I'm sure, but it's just the trend I've seen.)

[JackaBo]

I can totally see why spy is the best DR target but I wonder how much worse whirlpool drake is, possibly giving you up to 14 dredges. The upside is of course that it ups the blue count for fow. On the other hand phantasmagorian gets worse if your on the whirlpool plan. All of this is just theory however. Can any of you veterans elaborate on how it actually plays out?


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[slave]

The interesting thing about that is that most of the players - very good players - I've ran into don't play Relic in their board. It's always usually Extraction, Cage or Rest in Peace. Relic sees play in non-blue sideboards, so perhaps it's a result of non-blue players not being as skilled as blue players? (Sounds biased I'm sure, but it's just the trend I've seen.)

I'm guessing the *shuffle* part of Surgical Extraction etc. helps to disrupt top and brainstorm enough for it to have multiple uses, not just to hate on graveyard decks like dredge. I have to wonder if it worth doing - IE. you're playing black discard, baiting a player to use their brainstorm/top etc. to hide their answers/business/hate, then using Extraction on something of little/no relelvance just to shuffle away what they want to keep.

[Echelon]

I can totally see why spy is the best DR target but I wonder how much worse whirlpool drake is, possibly giving you up to 14 dredges. The upside is of course that it ups the blue count for fow. On the other hand phantasmagorian gets worse if your on the whirlpool plan. All of this is just theory however. Can any of you veterans elaborate on how it actually plays out?


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Quite well, actualy. I've managed to combo off with Drake with just 2 cards in hand. Just kill the Drake off w/ a CT and DR it a second time to keep the party going.

@the hate thing - I don't think it's a blue/non-blue player thing. You either just know how to play against the deck, or you don't. Those that do typically need just the little hate they bring, those that don't fail to use the hate properly.

Anyways - I think I'm dropping the 4 Contagion from my SB in favor of 4 CotA. DRS I can beat are the MUs I usually don't SB for (and where Chancellor is probably better than Contagion anyway) and I rarely see Containment Priest anymore.

[Michael Keller]

Quite well, actualy. I've managed to combo off with Drake with just 2 cards in hand. Just kill the Drake off w/ a CT and DR it a second time to keep the party going.

@the hate thing - I don't think it's a blue/non-blue player thing. You either just know how to play against the deck, or you don't. Those that do typically need just the little hate they bring, those that don't fail to use the hate properly.

Anyways - I think I'm dropping the 4 Contagion from my SB in favor of 4 CotA. DRS I can beat are the MUs I usually don't SB for (and where Chancellor is probably better than Contagion anyway) and I rarely see Containment Priest anymore.

That may change given the potential resurgence of Death and Taxes.

[Echelon]

That may change given the potential resurgence of Death and Taxes.

Your comment made me lol in light of the day I just had.

Round 1 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I get him to misjudges his role and make him think he's the beatdown when he isn't. That gives me exactly the window I need to combo out. G2: T3 - RiP. G3: T2 - RiP

Round 2 - Bye (turns out the guy was a doctor and was on call)

Round 3 - Enchantress (0-2)
G1: T2 - RiP (yes, maindeck). Well, fuck. G2: T2 - Elephant Grass, T3 - Humility, durdle for 15+ turns until he RiPs and Emrakuls and whatnots.

Round 4 - Burn (2-0)
G1 & G2 - I combo out on T3.

Round 5 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I combo out, easy peasy. G2, I Unmask his RiP(!) but he beats me the fair way. I whiff on just about everything and he kills me the turn before I could combo out. G3 I have the Unmask again but he doesn't have the RiP. My dredges whiff again and again the turn I can combo out I only have a DR and no CTs. I know he has Warping Wail and unfortunately he remembered it too.

So... Yeah. There were 3 D&T players in the room (on a total of 15), 1 Enchantress and assorted other stuff. Shit happens.

[Final Fortune]

All of the black targets are better than the blue targets without question, it's just that the degree to which the black targets are better than the blue targets isn't significant enough to matter over supporting Force of Will because the blue targets are still serviceable enough to combo out with - black targets also have fringe benefits in certain match ups i.e. Griselbrand is amazing vs Show&Tell.

Force of Will's failure rate is high even at 10%, it may not be as high for you because you're cutting Dredgers for blue cards but you're just trading consistency for your Force of Will for inconsistency in your mulligans. If you want to know why Mindbreak Trap is the only card I listed in my SB, it's to make a point that Force of Will is worse than Unmask vs combo because post-board being able to remove the blue combo creatures is what allows you to play more answers to combo in your 60, go back and re-read what I wrote and it will make sense.

I would rather have Chancellor of the Annex than Gitaxian Probe if it's just a question of the 4 flex slots, getting Gitaxian Probe countered is awful where delaying a Deathrite Shaman is probably the highest value you can ask for from any 1 card. Otherwise you're looking at cutting 1 Dread Return, 1 Dread Return target, 1 Shambling Shell and 1 Nether Shadow as the standard for sneaking in another 4 set or getting the blue count to 18.

I still really question the value of the MD combo kill, most games just end once you can resolve a Dread Return at all and the number of decks that can just kill you thru' a Sphere of Resistance is pretty slim. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm not sure the times it does is worth losing the utility elsewhere.

Contagian is bad, D&T at most has 1 Containment Priest for their tutor to find and just relies on RIP otherwise. Relic is a rare bird because people have graveyard decks other than Dredge to worry about.

[Michael Keller]

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.

[Echelon]

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.

That works fine the first time around. A lot of people tend to not pay attention to whatever you dump in your GY. The plan fails when they have a Mother of Runes though.

After your opponent is aware, they usually try very hard to Surgical or otherwise get rid of your Pharaoh. It's funny as hell - as if we care if we get to keep the Pharaoh(s) or not.

[JackaBo]

I have some questions/thoughts for you veterans:

If you're more afraid of RIP et al than other combo decks, is the unmask still better in your oppinion? The way I'm thinking, if I'm on the draw (which I want to be) I'd wanna unmask right away since RIP can come down on T2. That would timewalk me twice before I get to 8-card-discard. If I got FOW (and nothing significant happens T1) I can discard at end of turn and then wait out the hate-cards. I don't know how important this really is, but it feels important, at least in theory.

So, if I wanna run FOW in my 75, I'd wanna run the blue DR-targets - which don't go well together with phantasmagorian. Does this mean I'd want to cut phantasmagorian and run FOW maindeck?

Regarding the Spy into Progentius-plan that Echelon advocates: Since you need a full hand to stay safe with progenitus, does this also mean phantasmagorian is a liability? If so, would it be worth running Progenitus in a Phantasmagorian-less Drake-deck?

Also, I wonder if Jin Gitaxias have been tested as DR target in a FOW-list instead of Drake? He gives you 7 dredges or draws at end of turn and, if not answered on the next turn, puts opponent in topdeck mode. If you draw instead of dredge (you still get to discard a bunch of cards, probably) you could draw into FOW and should be close to unbeatable.

[GoldenCid]

I have some questions/thoughts for you veterans:

If you're more afraid of RIP et al than other combo decks, is the unmask still better in your oppinion? The way I'm thinking, if I'm on the draw (which I want to be) I'd wanna unmask right away since RIP can come down on T2. That would timewalk me twice before I get to 8-card-discard. If I got FOW (and nothing significant happens T1) I can discard at end of turn and then wait out the hate-cards. I don't know how important this really is, but it feels important, at least in theory.



Interesting...

[Final Fortune]

The interaction between the blue targets and Phantasmagorian isn't that sigificant for Whirlpool cards, before them we used creatures that were just draw 3 and that was more or less enough. As far as Jin Gitaxis, I think it's worse than Griselbrand, but being blue I imagine it's good enough if you want a Dread Return target that takes advantage of Show&Tell ... honestly I don't think it really matters much what you Dread Return as long as it is speeding you up or slowering them down on the clock.

Cutting Phantasmagorian is never the answer to anything.

[Echelon]

Regarding the Spy into Progentius-plan that Echelon advocates: Since you need a full hand to stay safe with progenitus, does this also mean phantasmagorian is a liability? If so, would it be worth running Progenitus in a Phantasmagorian-less Drake-deck?

The times you want to grind your opponent out that way, you can see it coming from miles away. Usually being able to draw Progenitus just once is more than enough (and normally unnecessary). I wouldn't run this deck without Phantasmagorian in it, it can be so important to have it I don't want to be without.

Progenitus makes Balustrade Spy pretty awesome vs. S&T, by the way.

@Final Fortune: I get your points about the blue targets over the black targets and just wanted to say you're right about that.

[ChemicalBurns]

Ok, went 2-2 in the weekly with this Manaless list:

Creatures: (41)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
1 Griselbrand
2 Chancellor of the Annex

Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Sideboard: (15)
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Contagion
2 Unmask
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ashen Rider

Round 1: vs. BURG Delver

Game 1: I think I very easily beat his turn one Delver that he eventually had to Bolt to exile Bridges. I shredded his hand with idiots, Dread Returned a Chancellor of the Annex and sealed up the game.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: I end up just pitching a Dredger for my first turn, he ends up Surgicaling the Grave-Troll and I have no defence with Wraith that I can do about it. We go draw go (discarding random jank to my graveyard) for a while I search for a Phantasmagorian or Wraith to fight his DRS. Eventually I find the Wraith and cycle it in response to DRS targeting Stinky. However, I whiff on the Dredge and I can’t get going.

Game 3: My opponent keeps a lose hand with cage, Surgical and DRS and Wasteland as his only mana. He slams Cage T1 but I Force. We draw-go for a while, he Surgicals my first Dredger. However, I have another to discard, he finds his coloured land too late and I eventually overwhelm him.

1-0

Round 2: vs. Shardless BUG

Game 1: He seriously does nothing and I just massacre him. I think he only gets a Tarmogoyf going, I ignore it and just combo kill him with Rider > Flayer > Grave-Troll.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: He mulls deep and finds Leyline of the Void. I scoop it up.

Game 3: He mulls to four, doesn’t find Leyline and I massacre him with beatdowns and combo.

Apparently he only had a singleton Leyline and a Cage for hate.

Round 3: vs. Maverick

This was hard!

Game 1: He goes Mom (eh) into Thalia (!). I cycle Street Wraith to hope to naturally draw into Force, but whiff and Thalia is in the house. Heretic Cathar also comes down and I can’t really effectively attack either (Ichorid does nothing!) and my whole game plan is paralyzed. A combo I can’t cast stares back at me from my full graveyard. I die.

+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
-1 Griselbrand
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: He has Mom, but I easily overpower her with a very fast hand of triple Wraith. I blind Therapy away a Knight like a pro (not really, as we’ll see…) and then combo kill him.

Game 3: I make big mistakes here. I have Shoal + Narco all game (drawing second Narco for draw step, ugh), and get somethings going as he goes Mom into Deathrite. Deathrite pecks away at my graveyard but it’s already pretty stacked so I can still do a lot. Ichorid comes in and I have the sense that he has Knight of the Reliquary in hand (he has gone land Mom, turn two no play, turn three land, Deathrite – which I guessed he topdecked) but I don’t sac my Icky to Therapy Knight. Turns out he had two in hand and I get Dark Depths killed.

Round 4: vs. Dragon Stompy

This is a friend. I lent him my deck. My sideboard has 3 Leylines. Ugh.

Game 1: He has hand of Hanweir Garrison x 3 + Rabble. My first Dredge whiffs and I’m too slow to keep going.

+3 Contagion
-2 Phatasmagorian
-1 Shambling Shell

Game 2: Turn zero Leyline. GG.

Overall 2-2

Overall, I really like the deck. I’m certain I would’ve had the game verse Maverick if I did not misplay with the Therapy. I’m still struggling with sideboarding but I think I’m understanding the dimensions of the deck a little bit better. Please tell me if I’ve done anything wrong. Manaless Dredge I really want to improve with, as it feels so powerful, so convoluted (at times) and a real blast to play (especially when you need to beat hate). Yeap. Also, critiques on my main deck and sideboard would be helpful. Metagame is pretty diverse here in Melbourne Australia, but it’s getting quite fair overall.

[dte]

Overall, I really like the deck. I’m certain I would’ve had the game verse Maverick if I did not misplay with the Therapy. I’m still struggling with sideboarding but I think I’m understanding the dimensions of the deck a little bit better. Please tell me if I’ve done anything wrong. Manaless Dredge I really want to improve with, as it feels so powerful, so convoluted (at times) and a real blast to play (especially when you need to beat hate). Yeap. Also, critiques on my main deck and sideboard would be helpful. Metagame is pretty diverse here in Melbourne Australia, but it’s getting quite fair overall.

Why do you remove so often ichorid? It is an important card, and the best one to produce bridge tokens in blocked board positions. I would remove prized amalgam before ichorid any day.

Also I think in your last game going down to 1 phantasmagorian is a bit low, especially in a MU that can be quite fast.

Otherwise I am surprised by the 3 DR for 4 dedicated DR targets, I would do the contrary any day (in fact, it is exactly what I do, 3 dedicated (flayer + 2 WR) for 4 DR) as DR without dedicated target can be quite good (tokens, trolls, CotA,...) while a dedicated DR target without DR is useless.

[GoldenCid]

Why do you remove so often ichorid?

Maybe to keep blue card count high?

Im not sure if rider and griselbrand should share the deck. i thinkg it's one or the other to rise consistency.

And how did you feel with just 2 chacellor? Did it worth?

[ChemicalBurns]

Thanks for the responses!

Phantas I trim in non-DRS MUs but going so low may definitely be wrong. I tend to go less all-in on Phantas in post-board games because of hate and needing to preserve cards in hand for Force/Rider. But you're right that 1 may be too low, as you have no avenue for the explosive draws he provides.

Ichorid I tend to trim because in multiples he always ends up being kind of redundant (only one has enough food, etc.) and the mentioned blue count, though I'm well aware that I'm likely sideboarding incorrectly. What would you recommend I trim in these matchups? Again, still kind of bad at this SBing thing.

I like Grisel as just flying lifelink beater that can mill you, and also lets you draw cards for FoW if needed when in play. Also gets fed to icky nicely. I agree that so many DR targets may be unnecessary. Grisel is a luxury I'll cut for more redundancy.

Chancellor was great. I want to fit a 3rd. It and Force of Will in the main make the deck look super-sexy vs combo.

I'm switching my main deck to the BoM Top 8 list, -1 Chancellor, +1 Amalgam and a SB of:

4 Shoal
3 Contagion
3 Faerie
2 MB Trap
2 Unmask
1 Ashen Rider

Though I'm keen to trim Ashen and Traps for 3 Pharaoh (D&T's Thalias are very frustrating, and it's getting popular here).

Thanks for feedback as always. :)

[ChemicalBurns]

Sorry for the double post, but have another 2-2 to report.

Round 1: vs White Stompy

A close friend whose list I crafted, so I knew exactly what I needed to fight. I kept a zero Dredger hand with a Probe and Wraith, but whiffed on getting anything into the bin to discard. I'm really feeling the lack of shells here... He casts a Thalia, then a Seer and I can't get going and die.

+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
-2 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-2 Bridge from Below
-3 Chancellor of the Annex

Chancellor seemed weak vs Cavern. But so is Shoals I guess. Need to fight RiP and Priest. And Thalia, I guess.

Game 2: Dredge a Stinky to start with but whiff. Have to Force his t2 Thalia and then can't cleanup discard Stinky. Get Thought-Knotted and die.

Thalia is very rough, I find.

Round 2: vs Grixis Delver

Game 1: He has t1 DRS I have turn one discard Troll. Upkeep he goes to eat it and then I go nuts, Wraithing and then draw step Dredging into a tonne of gas. I think Narcos go to bin and in resp. to trigger I pitch a bunch of Amalgams to a Phantas milled too, to trigger these. I shred apart his hand, have a tonne of power on board and then brute force DR Flayer (he Forces), do it again and Amalgams enter for the kill.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Force of Will

I have a similar start - turn one DRS but I have Wraith to get the action started. He misses his second land and has double Delver. He forgets to fetch green on t1, so I can Dredge in his second main, hitting Narco and Amalgam. Dredge into an absurd amount of Narcos on t2 (I think I had a Probe too), shred his hand, DR Flayer and have lethal on board next turn. He flipped Surgical to Delvers next turn, hehe.

Yeah sometimes this deck is nuts.

Round 3: 4c Loam

Game 1: He has a Lili I laugh at and kill him quickly.

+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
+3 Faerie Macabre
-4 Force of Will
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Prized Amalgam
-1 Chancellor of the Annex

Sideboarding is a mess and something I didn't really care about. Because Leylines.

Time to go to the casino.

Game 2: Mulls to 3, hits Leyline.

Game 3: Never hits Leylines, I win with idiots.

Round 4: vs Death & Taxes

Game 1: I should know to mull right? -.- Anyway, Probe and Wraith hand with zero Dredgers, don't hit any, get Thaliaed into Prelate and die.

Side same as Round 1.

Game 2: Hand is super strong with Unmask, Force + Shoal and some stinkies. Put Stinky in bin he Cavern on Human, and casts Thalia. I look at my counters and cry. He follows up with an uncounterable Cage and I scoop it up.

White hate creatures are proving difficult, though the DRS matches feel super easy. I think I need some Vengeful Pharaohs, would really fix these MUs nicely.

Anyway, again, questions and comments on how I board would be much appreciated.

[Echelon]

Vs. Grixis I wouldn't have boarded at all. That MU is just ridiculously good. Chancellor keeps away DRS for a turn and after that you just go nuts on his ass. Keep threatening with the combo kill while you just aggro them to death.

Vs. the white decks - their main point is stopping your combo plan, it is something you should expect them to do (i.e: Don't rely on the combo finish vs. D&T). They still can't handle your armada of creatures. It's bad practice to side out Nether Shadows and Bridges vs those decks. Keep Shadows on defense, block their big, bad creature, get tokens and kill them on the backswing. They can't handle your snowballing - they have to find the hate, otherwise they'll probably die.

[Xenio]

Hi, i read this forum since few months and it will be my first post. I think the deck is "finish" and perfect for Legacy. Only 3-4 card is different depending on the player. The deck can do amazing stuff. Sadly i think people will put more grave-hate in the next month cause manaless start to do some result (2nd at a Star cyty game, top8 at BOM Paris), that's not a lot but that's a start.


I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.
I play test Vengeful Pharaoh and yes it shine. Death and taxeswill be more present and other deck starting to get Recruiter of the Guard MD because it's an amazing tutor. With people playing more and more this card, Containment Priest will be more likely to be in side than Grafdigger's Cage or RIP. Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing sometimes. He can kill the Containment priest and your opponent can't counter it. So you don't have FOW, not anti-hate, if your opponent have priest, you still can win, and that's amazing.

Moreover the card is not only good against hate, it really shine agasint some aggro deck like Eldrazy and D&T and even reanimator ! Reanimator really can't win, i play a lot against reanimator and manaless dredge get crush but not with the little Phraraoh. If he reanimate Elesh Nor most of the time it's over, but now the man can't attack you, your opponent must deal all the damage and kill you in 1 turn or you will kill Elesh with the pharaoh and kill him at your turn, and he can't wait cause the prized will come. It's not always the win cause he can reanimate Elesh again but that give you the game like in 80% of match.

In addition, Pharaoh is cool against all control deck with few creature like Loam deck or grixis delver.

I will try it but in some match, even if the opponent get a cage, with 4 Pharaoh and a progenitus you can win with the draw of your opponent's empty library. But maybe not :tongue:

(Sorry for english misstake, it's not my first language)

[ahg113]

(Sorry for english misstake, it's not my first language)

Welcome. You're english is fine (it's better than fine, it's good), way better than my french and most Americans don't even know a second language (unsure about the Common Wealth folks).

Lately, the discussion is down to FoW or CotA. And, at a macro level, spy vs. non-spy. Let us know how you perform with the deck.

[easysantiago]

Hi, i read this forum since few months and it will be my first post.

Welcome to the cult!

[Xenio]

Lately, the discussion is down to FoW or CotA. And, at a macro level, spy vs. non-spy. Let us know how you perform with the deck.

I play manaless since few years, and during the last 7 months i try all version (except horde mode, wich is just not competitive). I do a tournament of 20-30 personne each week.
The 2 first week i go with balustrade spy and was 4-0 each time. After, people add hate on her side, real hate not faerie or surgical extraction. And i did 3-1 / 2-2/ 1-3 ^^ So balustrad spy is good if no one have hate.
About the first game victory I think you win 90% of the time with no-spy list, and 95% with spy list. If nobody got a brain and go to a GP without hate, you can have luck and win (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106627). This list only get anti-DRS side.

I try the Kelpie list, but since prized amalgam is released this list with spy or wirlpool is better.

I play with disturbing shoal in the side since 4 month, i put the force two month ago and play FOW main deck last month. The only value to play FOW in the side is to surprised the opponent, but in a GP or a meta where people know you play them, it's better to have them MD.
About shoal, by siding this card, it will be usefull (in the best case) for only 25% of your game. I have some in side and nearly never take them.

FOW is fucking op and is a monster. People fear a lot the speed of manaless and dredge. Not because the deck is fast. But they have the illusion after the game 1, even if you kill them in 4 turn they are helpless against you. So in game 2-3 they really fear you, so them can missplay. And it's in this case that FOW is amazing. Agaisnt D&T, people will rush RIP T2 unless play Thalaia T2 and RIP T3. FOW is the antihate who can destroy all hate (except leyline).
Moreover FOW can counter only response that some deck have (UR delver for exemple, which only have cage in side to block you).

My point of vue about CoA is particular, i think this card is most of the time... useless.
Youhou this card slow the opponent, you will concede T3 and not T2 ! Against hate this card is useless, it won't make you win, against an opponent without hate... pls man you play manaless, you already have win if he have nothing !
But (there si always a but) some player (idiot) think they will get the hate with Brainstorm/ponder and in this case CotA can be good.

So i have 4 of the in side against reanimator, show and tell, strom, belcher. Well agasint all combo deck. To slow and with luck do an early DR on CoA.

MD i play contagion, cause it's destroy shaman.

My current list have the package of all manaless, i will only write the card who matter in the list :
- 4 FOW
- 4 prized Amalgam
- 2 wirlpool
- 1 Flayer
- 3 Nether shadow
- 2 Contagion

I like it this way, maybe i can add 1 Contagion and remove a Nether shadow.
I nearly always side out the Nether shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, Contagion if useless and a bridge if the Pharaoh enter.

My side is :
- 4 CoA
- 3 Disturbing shoal
- 2 Faerie macabre
- 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
- 2 Balustrad Spy
- 1 Progenitus

I side Progenitus against Miracle and Progenitus and Balustrad spy agaisnt reanimator and show and tell. And that's not a troll.
Last week i play against reanimator, i try to exhume and in response i discard the spy with Phantasmagorian (even if i got 2 FOW in hand). So i reanimate the Spy, he reanimate Elesh nor. And I win the game with this moove.

The side is manaless is hard to do i think, and not yet perfect. You need card who will make you win and that's hard to find, cause you need card you can play for free. For now I want to remove the shoal, but i don't know wich card add instead. Maybe white Leyline like M. Keller.

[Echelon]

I so hope to see the day a Reanimator pilot Reanimates a Balustrade Spy from my yard only to target me. I have already lived the dream vs. S&T.

As far as SB-ing is concerned - another big question is when to actually sideboard. Sometimes you're better off just trying to outrace your opponent.

[oSeabass]

Since manaless is so dead to something like Leyline or RIP, is there any thought to put something like Elvish Spirit Guide for Nature's Claim, running a Savannah for like Natures Claim and maybe Wispmare? It feels like an opponent mulliganning to 1 and that 1 being Leyline and just scooping seems.... odd.

Am I just missing some interactions the deck already has in most boards that I'm just not seeing? I understand playing around stuff like Crypt and Surgical, but stuff that is just an instant win seem off.

[Echelon]

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.

[Xenio]

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.

Get naturels claim : 40% (4 un the deck)
Get a green source (4 driad arbor + 4 guide) : 65%
-> could use nature's claim : 40*65= 26%
Chance the enemy don't get a counter (4 daze + 4 FOW) : 35%
-> total against a deck who dont get a counter : 9,1%...

Probablility to get a leyline if go until Mulligan 1 with 4 leyline un the deck : 83%.

Dont try to fight ligne ley (and i didn't concidere the mulligan to get a counter)

[Echelon]

Exactly.

[oSeabass]

Get naturels claim : 40% (4 un the deck)
Get a green source (4 driad arbor + 4 guide) : 65%
-> could use nature's claim : 40*65= 26%
Chance the enemy don't get a counter (4 daze + 4 FOW) : 35%
-> total against a deck who dont get a counter : 9,1%...

Probablility to get a leyline if go until Mulligan 1 with 4 leyline un the deck : 83%.

Dont try to fight ligne ley (and i didn't concidere the mulligan to get a counter)

I guess that makes sense. I'm assuming they would leave in some counterspells to deal with Dread Return or Therapy too.

[Echelon]

Good call. And yes, that'd be a very valid assumption. It's one of the few things they have that can prevent us from trampling them like a puny insect.

[Parcher]

What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?

[Echelon]

What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?

Those that exist in the minds of people who've never played a Legacy tournament in their life and haven't the slighest idea of how this deck or basic mathematics work (and hence are capable of thinking Nature's Claim is a viable plan).

Oh wait, to answer your question, none. At all.

It amuses me to no end though.

[Xenio]

Oh wait, to answer your question, none. At all.
Some Tezzerator play Force and Ligneley. But only some random player who love the deck play Tezzerator.

But the result with the counter is still true agasint grafdigger's cage or Rest in piece. Since go try Nature's claim plan, you don't have Force (or your deck is not dredge anymore with 16 no-dredge cards).

[Echelon]

Some Tezzerator play Force and Ligneley. But only some random player who love the deck play Tezzerator.

But the result with the counter is still true agasint grafdigger's cage or Rest in piece. Since go try Nature's claim plan, you don't have Force (or your deck is not dredge anymore with 16 no-dredge cards).

So a small part of the players that play one fringe deck..?

Well, I guess we're in trouble then.

[slave]

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.
AFter running the green side myself with Dryad Arbor in the main for quite a while, I can honestly say it's not all that great compared to current options. I favour Blue FWIW.
Add to that, Chalice of the Void kills Claims. And Chalice has been getting a lot more air-time around me, dunno about you guys.


What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?
Exactly - a deck like manaless just has to take the good (lack of interaction) with the bad (no answer to certain cards)



Now in my experience, siding out some Ichorid's was just fine before they printed Prized Amalgam. Now I feel it's not a great move, as Icky & Narcomoeba are the only ways to get PA on the field.
Seeing as your very first dredge could place some PA in the yard, I want to see Icky ASAP.
How are you guys on Icky, post game1?

[Echelon]

I've never boarded out any copies of Ichorid as of yet. They present your best plan B - death by beats. 3 damage per turn, produce tokens at the end of each.

[slave]

Yeah I can only remember siding out a single Icky (and Shells) back when I was riding the Green side, but since then Fearless (Spy) or Blue (Force) means there's other things I'd rather side out than Icky. It's just so important to this deck

[Final Fortune]

Siding out Ichorid is always wrong, always.

[ChemicalBurns]

I've been goldfishing and Cockatricing Manaless a lot in between being chained to my desk for exam study, and finally got to take the deck for a spin in the recent sanctioned tournament here in Melbourne, Australia. Anyway, second with a deck people call a “gimmick”, a deck people kick me out of Cockatrice for… People should hurry up and respect it – the deck is genuinely good. I put my money with my mouth is by bringing it to this more “serious” (although small) tournament and the deck proved to be truly awesome. I fought through a lot of tough situations and hate, as well generally overwhelmed opponents who were unprepared. The brute strength of the deck is real – and it also had a lot of strength against combo with (what I believe) should be the standard blue package. I did so many things that simple discard like Unmask never could’ve done. I highly recommend it.

20 players showed up to with the room being split between fair decks (Delver, Shardless D&T) and combo decks (mainly Reanimator, S&S, two Storm players). There was a smattering of other stuff too. The list I brought was this:

Free Creatures: (19)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers/Discard: (16)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian

Disruption: (10)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Force of Will

Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard: (15)
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Unmask

Very similar to the list that Top 8ed BoM Paris. The main toss-up I had was the 3rd Nether Shadow slot, which could've gone to either a Shambling Shell or the third Chancellor. It was close between all three, and I think after this tournament I might move to the third Chancellor, but anyway.

There were 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to Top 8.

Round 1: vs. Grixis Delver

G1: I crush him. He has turn one DRS, but I have Phantasmagorian, and quickly create a monstrous army on my turn two.

-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
-1 Bridge from Below
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+2 Contagion

Sideboarded perhaps too heavy, with a lot of cards to ensure I could stop a turn one Deathrite. I’ve been told to sideboard lightly for this, and maybe the additional Chancellors aren’t necessary.

G2: He goes on the play. Basically the same as G1. He has a Surgical that he uses a bit too late, and he ends up choosing Dread Return. He has an Angler and Delver in play, but I get a bunch of Zombies thanks to double Bridge and some Amalgams entering. I quickly eat him up.

Round 2: vs. ANT

Game 1: Our decks both crap on us, with me whiffing on enough free creatures or Therapies, and only having some anaemic Nether Shadow beats, while he shuffles off every Ponder and bottoms every Preordain. Eventually I come to needing to hit a third creature to resurrect Chancellor for the win. Alas, I do not get there and die to Tendrils the next turn.

-2 Bridge from Below
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask

I think cutting Flayer (-1 Flayer, +1 Dread Return) is probably a better option here, as I only want Chancellor to finish the game anyway.

Game 2: He goes on the draw. I have turn zero Chancellor, and then get some Street Wraith cycling going; he Infernals for a Cabal Ritual, and the turn after I shred his hand with a Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (discarded to a Phantasmagorian, I think) naming Cabal Ritual, of course. He has Chain of Vapor in hand that I also eventually end up Therapying away, and then I get my Chancellor in play.

Game 3: He goes on the draw. I have a pretty nutty hand – Probe, Force, Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool + some Dredgers, so we snap this up and are off to the races. He has a slow one, and I end up bringing the Zombie beats, Shoal pitching Probe to counter a Xantid Swarm and Cabal Therapying away an Empty the Warrens (I'd seen his hand off a previous missed Therapy, he Brainstormed in response to this second Therapy but I still hit), which would've made enough blockers to stop my lethal next turn - I do see a Tendrils of Agony though. I then Force his Cabal Ritual to hopefully stop his combo turn but he has a second that he'd hidden with Brainstorm and rituals into a Tendrils to bring him up to sixteen life. Luckily I have more than sixteen power of idiots next turn and win.

Round 3: vs. UB Reanimator

Game 1: Opponent keeps a sketchy one with only a Petal and Careful Study. He whiffs on land with his Reanimate and binned fatties staring at him. I bring the beats, shred his hand with Therapy (naming Reanimate).

+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return

I don’t even know if cutting Flayer is correct, because he certainly is nice vs. Exhume, but my logic was if my opponent Reanimates him, I’m kind of in trouble. Then again, Chancellors are ripe targets anyway. Not sure about this.

Game 2: He goes on the play. He starts with a study binning Elesh and Griselbrand, and has a reasonable amount of lands. I Therapy him at some stage which he Dazes. He draw-gos for awhile, eventually casting a Show and Tell he topdecks. Luckily, my hand is Force of Will, Narcomoeba, Shoal x 3! I Force pitching Narco, he Dazes, and I Shoal back, winning the war. I then beat him down for the win.

Round 4: vs. BUG Delver

We’re top of Swiss. ID. I kind of wanted to play this one since it’s a favourable matchup. But anyway.

Round 5: vs. Death & taxes

Again, can ID.

End up second in the Swiss.

Quarters: vs. BURG Delver

I again encounter good friend Steve in the Top 8. This is a pretty favourable matchup, but we lose game 1.

Game 1: I keep a seven with Dredgers, a Probe and a Force. Unfortunately, he has turn one Deathrite and I need to wait to find a Wraith or Phantas to overcome it. I think a second Deathrite joins the party, along with a Delver and Snapcaster. I find the Street Wraith, but a little too late. I possibly should’ve considered Forcing the Snapcaster (prior to that, he’d only had a Deathrite staring at me), as I was starting to discard good cards for the Deathrite to eat anyway.

+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow

Game 2: I go on the draw. I mulligan a strong seven, with Dredgers and Force, but feel I need to at least hit a Wraith or Phantas to beat inevitable turn 1 DRS. I mulligan into essentially the same hand, and work from there. I think Steve Ponders, and then doesn’t do much. I eventually bin a Dredger (Stinky) and he Surgicals it. Well. I do the same next turn but luckily my draw is a Street Wraith – because he has a second Surgical, but I cycle Wraith, getting the Dredging going and Flayer him from there.

Game 3: He goes on the draw. This game is exciting. I think I mulligan again, finding a Contagion and Force in my hand. Steve mulls deep. At one stage, he plays a Deathrite (ok, Contagion covers that) and then a Cage (!) which I Force. He only has an Underground Sea and a Wasteland, so my Dredgers are safe. He deploys a Delver which starts to beat me down, while I’m waiting to draw to hand size. Luckily, the first Dredge reveals a Pharaoh to extinguish the Delver (and keep me alive!) and then I discard some cards to Phantas – dumbly I discard a Therapy which he eats with DRS before I Contagion it. I could’ve just Contagioned it first and then discard and shredded his hand of any Bolts that would kill me (I’m on 1) if he topdecks a red source. Anyway, with his poor mana situation, I eventually make a bunch of creatures and quickly kill him.

Semis: vs. BUG Delver

Game 1: A pretty easy affair; I overpower his turn two Deathrite which he finds with a Ponder (it’s too slow) and he basically can’t do anything while Ichorids and Amalgams eat him up.

+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow

Game 2: He goes on the play. He has a turn one Deathrite while I’ve taken a mulligan into a mediocre hand. He then lands a second and third Deathrite with a lot of mana up, while I’m discarding to handsize random junk, looking for Phantas and a Wraith to overpower these Deathrites. He eventually gets a Delver which kills me anyway.

Game 3: He goes on the play. I think I keep a hand with Wraith. He leads on turn one Delver, flips it and gets me real low as I cycle Wraith and start churning through my deck. He Surgicals away all my Narcomoebas, which is rough, but I Dredge enough to get three Ichorids, a Pharaoh a few other goodies. I misplay and discard a Bridge to hand size with a Pharaoh in my yard. I Dredge into my second Bridge and he then opts to attack to kill his Delver and exile my Bridges – but then plays a second Delver, ugh. It’s not the end of the world though, as Ickys beat him down and two Amalgams bring the beats. I’ve shredded his hand of some stuff with multiple Therapies but he topdecks Brainstorm which finds him – Cage. An Amalgam trades with his Delver and then I have one left to beat him down from nine to zero. He Darkblasts it once, giving him an extra turn. I know he has Decay in hand from Therapies… I take him to one life. If he topdecks a non-fetch land he can Decay Amalgam and win from there…His topdeck… A Misty. PHEW.

Finals: vs. BR Reanimator

Game 1: He lootings and bins some fatties, Probe him and see he can kill me next turn. Joy. He has a Thoughtseize too, but rather than use it + Reanimate, he opts to cast Animate Dead on Griselbrand to save his life total. I Force buying me one extra turn. My Dredge for turn needs to hit me a Narco and Therapy and I do not get there. He Griselbrand + Children + Tendrils me.

+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return

Game 2: In this game, my opponent makes a mistake. I beat him down a little early game and he Thoughtseizes away a Shoal (which can only pitch Amalgams anyway). He eventually Exhumes a Griselbrand and I put into play… Chancellor of the Annex. He realises he screwed up, can’t combo and he goes to one life from drawing cards. I get there next turn.

Game 3: Another back and forth, he Thoughtseizes me, taking a counterspell and Time Walking me. Luckily I topdeck Faerie Macabre, and his Reanimate fizzles next turn. Phew! Dodged a bullet. He then Faithless Lootings. I draw for turn – Unmask. Now – I need to discard to hand size to get my machine going – I can bin Phantasmagorian, and then next turn, if I get one, I can pitch everything to it except my Unmask, put Phantas in my hand and then Unmask him pitching it – essentially using all my resources. Although this is the rational higher EV play, in my mind, my gut tells me to Unmask now, because my opponent seemed relatively unfazed and confidant by topdecked Faerie (surely some reaction to my lucksacking is warranted!). Although I’ll be double time walked, he’ll just be topdecking. But instinct is quelled by rational – but reading my opponent is something I should’ve considered here. He Exhumes Griselbrand next turn, I pitch Rider to my Phantasmagorian to mill a bunch of my library, so I can likely kill him next turn, but then he Tendrils me. What would’ve happened if I cast that Unmask… I don’t know. Maybe it was correct to do so immediately.

EDIT:
Takeaways:
- Pharaoh was awesome. I didn't play D&T where I know I wanted him, but he certainly shined vs. these Goyf Delver decks.
- Countermagic was awesome - really proved its worth vs. Reanimator and ANT. The blue package actually feels insane at times.
- I think I might find room for the 3rd Chancellor and free up some sideboard slots.
- I missplayed and the deck punished me at times - but when played well (blind hit Therapies, etc.) it rewarded me. Always something I love from a Magic deck.
- Mulliganing is a real skill with this deck, and something I need to get better at. I think there were times where I should've mulled, and others where I should've taken the risk. Anyway.

[Echelon]

Congrats on the finish. Great report!

[ChemicalBurns]

Just played some Leagues with the list posted above. 3-2 and 4-1 respectively. Annoyingly MODO didn't give me any prizes -.- Ugh.

1st League
0-2 vs. Storm
0-2 vs. Grixis Delver
2-1 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. UR Delver
2-1 vs. BUG Delver

2nd League
2-0 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. White Eldrazi
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
0-2 vs. BUG Delver
2-0 vs. Storm

In the first league, Storm and Grixis ended up being a massacre, as they Probe/Therapied me into oblivion. Leyline of Sanctity would've been strong here and I might try some moving forward - especially since it protects your countermagic from discard, which is really cool. Eldrazi I beat with them whiffing on finding Leylines in one of the games. UR Delver was a cake walk. White Eldrazi was even easier, with Shoals being super powerful and Force of Will ate a Vryn Wingmare g1 which would've prevented me comboing. Shardless was, again, another cake walk. BUG Delver I lost because game 1, after defending my Troll with Wraith against his t1 Deathrite, I proceed to Dredge 6 into a Thug and then Dredge 4 into nothing. I can't get going after that, annoyingly. G2 I lose because I pitch my hand to Phantasmagorian, but the two Dredgers I have are both Imps - and he has Surgical. If they were different, I think I would've been able to keep going and get there. Ugh. I'll chalk that loss up to variance, especially the first game where I whiffed on Dredgers (or a Phantas). Otherwise the deck was a monster that easily could've 5-0ed. Against Storm Chancellor stopped him dead in his tracks early, and I had Force of Will and double Wraith and Unmask to speed through my deck, find three creatures and a DR, Unmasked myself for Chancellor and DRed it to lock up the game. Sweet!

[Xenio]

Congratulation ChemicalBurns for your result! Yes Manaless is not a deck that everyone likes because he is complicate to understand/cheap/no-biland. But the people who don’t respect the deck loose more against him. For the side, I still think that shoal is useless most of the time and need luck to be usefull, and I want to had cards against Ad nauseam but I don’t think the white leyline give us the win.

I think you get luck against Ad Nauseam, with all the discard turn 1 and he can combo turn 1 the match up is really not for manaless dredge.

I read some one telling he don’t know when mulligan :
- if you have 3 draw in hand (gitaxiane probe or sreet wraith) you shouldn’t mulligan
-If you have one or zero is worth it to mulligan (but never go under 6). (I calculate some probability to - If you have 2, it’s a risk.
This week end I played Manaless dredge on the Eternal week end (around 250 players) I think they were 3 manaless in the tournament. I finish 5-1-3, not awesome and I stop take note in round 4 because my concentration was lower by writing the event of the game. And yesterday I play the trial (150 players) for six rounds and finish 4-2. The list is nearly the same ChemicalBurns with 2 contagion instead of the chancellor main deck.

The side is :
4 Chancellor of the annex
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Vengefull pharaoh
2 Balustrad Spy
1 Progenitus
2 Faerie macabre


This is my report for the trial Legacy :

Round 1 VS Omnishow

Game 1: He takes the play and play preordrain, I draw and discard a golgari grave-troll. On turn 2 he play ponder and an other preordrain, I play safe and don’t use street wraith in his turn, wait for my draw and use street wraoth in my turn looking for a cabal that I don’t get. Turn 3, he play ponder, preordrain and brainstorm and I don’t know what is this deck, I don’t think about omnishow and think he play high tide. I animate 2 ichoride and try a cabal, he concede.

+4 chancellor +1 progenitus (against high tide)
- 2 Contagion -1 Bridge from below

Game 2: He takes the play. I got phantamagorian, dredger, whirlpool rider and progenitus in hand. If iit’s high tide the progenitus need to be in library but I got phantasmagoria to shuffle him so I keep. He plays a ponder, I discard a phantasmagorian. He plays show and tell on turn 2 and I discover the his deck^^ in resp I use phantasmagorian to discard 2 dredger and a cabal. He drop an old enchant which is Omniscience but worse, I drop whirlpool rider with 4 card in hand, dredge 20 cards. He concedes in my turn when the 2 ichoride and 1 neither shadow come in play.

Round 2 VS Ad Nauseam

Game 1: He starts, play gitaxian prob, then use cabal therapie my Force. I draw and pass. He play another cabal, after thinking during 2 mins he says Force again and damnit he gets the other I top deck ! And he kill me.

+4 Chancellor +2Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion -2 Neither shadow -1 bridge from below -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: Turn 1 he cabal naming a force I don’t have (I have one faeri) and play lotus petal then 2 black ritual and ad nauseam to 3 life point. He don’t get a lotus petal so can’t start to get mana. He finishes is turn and go to 7 card in his hand, I draw and discard phantasmagorian. Turn 2 he play LED and pass… I reanimate ichorid, attack and kill him. He just fizzles :p

Game 3: He kill me turn one, black ritual into cabal therapy into a lot of cards and kill me.

Round 3 VS Stoneblade I think

Game 1: nothing relevant, he plays ponder, brainstorm, swords my amalgam and a stoneforge mystic, he can’t stop me

+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: He mull to 4, play a brainstorm, I discard, he pass. I try to reanimate ichoride, he play containment priest in reponse I force her, he concedes.

Round 4 VS BUG delver

I lose game 1 after he discard me with thoughtseize and play a shaman I can pass throw.

+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: I got a force in hand and a street wraith. He play shaman turn 1, my street wraith help and he plays 2 other shaman turn 2. I don’t force and think I get go throw by winning in my turn. I get 2 creatures on board and 2 bridge. I cabal to get 3 creatures. With the cabal I see he have nothing in hands so I dread return whirlpool rider and lose my force, dredre 4 times. He sees I can dread return and other whirlpool rider look the clock and concedes.

Game 3: He takes the draw, thoughtseize me, I draw an pass. And get some delver and tarmo. He chirurgical somethings and destroy me with his creatures. Can’t do anything thougseize make loose so much turn

Round 5 VS 4C reanimate (griselbrand + tendril of agony in the deck + the little white soldier)

His list was not the best, due to money I think.

Game 1: He mulligan to 4, turn 2 I reanimate ichoride and use 2 cabal with a bridge. His hand was destroyed so he can’t win.

+4 Chancellor +3 Vengefull pharaoh +2 Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion +3 neither shadow -1 bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: I get a faerie and a chancellor so I keep. Turn 1 he start playing mana spell and burning wish into a show and tell that I don’t expect. He drop griselbrand, I drop Chancellor. He got no drop land left so I know he can’t play card with the chancellor but he didn’t notice, draw 14 with griselbrand and play a lotus petal which was counter. He finishes his turn and discard. I reanimate ichoride and miss a cabal. After a 5min-turn he only play chrom mox. I do nothing spectacular. And after and other 5min-turn he concede. Chancellor op !

Round 6 VS BUG Delver

It was the last game and I want the win to get some TIX points so I don’t take note so it what i remember.

Game 1: He plays shaman turn1, I draw and discard. He plays another shaman I force him. He tries to exile my dredger, I recycle street wraith, dredge get a phantasmagorian, discard 3 and play my contagion on the shaman. So the two shamans was dead,easy win now. He gets nothing expect a Jace and delver 1/1.

Game 2: T1 Cage

Game 3: He gets Delver T1 and delver + shaman T2, attack with the Delver. I go to 19, than 13 on turn 3 due to two flying delver, I force (go to 12) a surgical. At my turn 3 I get ichorid, hit for 3 and reanimate Flayer and kill the shaman (I fear for my ichoride). Turn 4 with 2 flying delver I go to 6. I play my turn 4, reanimate ichorid and kill one delver with the trigger of the flayer. I attack, he go down to 5 life points. Turn 5 he attack with the delver, i got 3 LP, get nothing more and concedes


Thoughts about the deck :
I play since 4 years manaless dredge and he is really more stronger than before, enemy with good hand and some matchup aren’t winnable but he still can do result but it’s hard to win a big tournament. Win against miracle is so easy but against deck with Shaman and thoughtseize main deck it’s hard.
The MD is fixed, and I think everyone should play this 60 because it’s the best (except for the switch chancellor/contagion I’m the only one who doing it). I want to cut a neither shadow to have another contagion. Force is amazing we now know that, Vengeful pharaoh is shinning is this meta even if that don’t make you win, it buy you time against aggro deck UR Delver/D&T or infect and it’s important. The secret tech with the balustrade spy is maybe not worth it to get him in the side (whirlpool rider can do the same but you lose your hand). More work on the side need to be done. Shoal is not efficient.
I will play the CDFL (French cup legacy) in three weeks and will try to get 3 or 4 white Leyline.

I love this deck, even if I ‘m starting playing infect this one is still my little baby that I love.

[Final Fortune]

I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch.

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

[ChemicalBurns]

I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch.

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

To rebutt this, I ended up playing against Show and Tell (1 OmniTell, 2 Sneak & Show) in my recent League and main deck Force of Will was my saving grace. I had double Force of Will g1 to fight over a Show and Tell and then won the game next turn. Furthermore, I won post-board thanks to Disrupting Shoal pitching Prized Amalgam. Force main deck really saves your ass against combo, which I feel we are otherwise an extreme dog to. And as I referenced before, hitting things that can be problematic (eg. Wingmare, Thalia etc.) that appear g1 is also very powerful. Deathrite Shaman I feel we are well equipped to deal with as-is thanks to Wraith and Phantas, though I will agree on the strength of Chancellor. I think fitting both in is feasible; it just means we have to play a bit tighter and mulligan more wisely due to the diluted amount of Dredgers. Shell is still pretty mediocre anyway.

@Final Fortune, I think just making Manaless a grind machine is fine, but we do need those fast combo wins in certain situations. The deck offers a lot of different attack plans, whether it be via grind with creatures, a combo or ripping up our opponents hand, and removing one of these I feel is unwise.

[Echelon]

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

Seems like you changed your mind quite a bit since the last time this came up (see page 18 of the thread). Back in april you said pretty much the exact opposite.

[Xenio]

I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch..

Your point of vue is no sence because we don't choose between Force and CoA. And even if we have to choose Chancellor is better vs Shaman (but we still have street wraith and phantasmagorian to counter him) and FOW is better against combo and can make us win.

But Force is needed for the game 2.

And if we can have both in main deck there is no interest to put them on side.
I played a game where i FOW turn 1 in game 1 a deathrite shaman and i win cause after he can't stop me.

Guys, why every one play only contagion and not sickening shoal ?

[Final Fortune]

Seems like you changed your mind quite a bit since the last time this came up (see page 18 of the thread). Back in april you said pretty much the exact opposite.


The meta has changed since then, combo has fallen to the wayside and aggro has risen to the top as one of the main stays of the format so the need to be fast is less important. As it stands the combo is more for decks that you can't otherwise interact with, like RG lands etc. which is rather narrow so I'm not really sure whether it belongs in the MD or SB over Pharoah or whatever else.

I think I mentioned dropping the combo recently tho? All ive done is shuffle around my FoWless 75 recently.

[Final Fortune]

Your point of vue is no sence because we don't choose between Force and CoA. And even if we have to choose Chancellor is better vs Shaman (but we still have street wraith and phantasmagorian to counter him) and FOW is better against combo and can make us win.

But Force is needed for the game 2.

And if we can have both in main deck there is no interest to put them on side.
I played a game where i FOW turn 1 in game 1 a deathrite shaman and i win cause after he can't stop me.

Guys, why every one play only contagion and not sickening shoal ?

You aren't winning games vs combo playing just FoW, I play Storm as much if not more than Dredge and unless they go AI blind you have little chance of winning game 1 and have to fight uphill game 2. The best set up vs combo doesn't even use FoW over Mindbreak Trap, Unmask, COTV, Leyline of Sanctity etc where you can cut the chaff blue reanimation targets for more answers.

Yeah if you are running both FoW and Chancellor then you arent running something else.

[Echelon]

Guys, why every one play only contagion and not sickening shoal ?

Simple. You bring it in vs. Containment Priest/DRS. Those have 2 toughness. Contagion gives you the opportunity to kill 2 x/1's with just 1 card from time to time. That's something the Shoal'll never do.

[ChemicalBurns]

@Final Fortune

There's a few points I'd like to make about main deck FoW. First, I will not refute that it certainly can dilute your deck; a lower threat density and omission of Shell certainly can lead to some clunky looking Dredges at times. You very occasionally will whiff on chaining Dredges (eg. Have dumped hand off Phantas, need to keep going by hitting another Dredger but whiff) but I think these problems can be minimised by mulliganing when necessary and playing conservatively and smartly. Shell, as much as I'd like to find room for him, is still a very low-impact cards, even when you actually use him for Dredging.

What Force does aid considerably is save us against combo game 1. Compared to other combo decks we are slow, our fundamental turn being 3 while others can go off on turn 2. However, when we have Force we give ourself enough defence to buy that one extra turn to hit Therapies, shred the opponent's hand and then go off - or just clock them with our creatures. I know this isn't perfect, as opposing disruption can hurt us, but it is certainly better than relying on just our discard, which is only one axis of attack and can be imperfect. I'll agree that Storm still can be hard game 1, but we have much more of a fighting chance with discard, countermagic and a permanent based lock piece (Chancellor) and the matchups against Show and Tell feels much easier now.

I think you're also underestimating the strength of FoW as just a general utility spell too - not just as defence against combo. I have Forced countless spells, from Terminus that's ready to ruin us to just random things like Tarmogoyf. Having this flexibility in a deck once considered as incredibly linear in its plan of attack is something to be impressed by.

I'll admit in some metagames that FoW may not be necessary. In a metagames dominated by fair decks, FoW is unnecessary most of the time - just maximising on redundancy is probably better to ensure our engine doesn't randomly fizzle on us. But I still do think it is a necessity post-board, not only as a blanket answer against hate (except Leyline, obviously) but also as combo hate. The fact that we have sideboard slots with overlapping purposes frees up slots for other matchups. We don't have to run narrow cards like Mindbreak which is only strong against a certain subset.

I do think Chancellor should be a staple of all lists going forward though, FoW or not. The card keeps impressing me, not only as a way to steal back the play, delay Deathrite, etc. but also as a DR target that can ruin so many decks.

@Xenio
Contagion is typically better because we only care about small utility creatures (DRS) and it can occasionally tag multiple creatures. You can also spread counters on your own things for Bridge triggers. Shoal is only great for killing big things, which we overall don't care about much.

Also, someone recently conversed with me about Noxious Revival as Surgical defence. We have Wraith for our Dredgers, but not Narco and friends. It's seems a bit narrow and I'm quite skeptical, but I was wondering if anyone had given it a go. It also doubles as graveyard hate in our Faerie/Surgical slots.

[Xenio]

Simple. You bring it in vs. Containment Priest/DRS. Those have 2 toughness. Contagion gives you the opportunity to kill 2 x/1's with just 1 card from time to time. That's something the Shoal'll never do.

Sure, but killing 2 cards never happen. Shaman and limon get 2 in endurance and for priest if she's dead it's win so the other creature don't matter.
It 's cool vs Infect but he can pump a beast to save her when a sickenning shoal could kill the infect creature.
As more as I use contagion, i start thinking sickenning shoal is better cause i never target 2 creatures.

Noxious reveal is nearly always useless but can save from some hate.
Sadly this card is only usefull in hand like Street wraith, gitaxianne prob, Force. Had other can make the dredge useless (like i dredge 5 get only useless card : street wraith, force, chancellor, dread return, prized amalgame). So i think that if you want to have noxious, you have to remove other "usefull in hand" card.

[Echelon]

Sure, but killing 2 cards never happen. Shaman and limon get 2 in endurance and for priest if she's dead it's win so the other creature don't matter.
It 's cool vs Infect but he can pump a beast to save her when a sickenning shoal could kill the infect creature.
As more as I use contagion, i start thinking sickenning shoal is better cause i never target 2 creatures.

Depends. Shoal + Therapy is strictly worse. Shoal + Nether Shadow/Golgari Thug is still slightly worse. It's only better w/ Stinkweed Imp & up. Besides, Infect can just as easily Vines of Vastwood their creature to blank Shoal + Phantasmagorian. Or, you know, Invigorate, Invigorate into Berserk. Or FoW it. Or just let their creature die. Can't imagine they'd really care. They lose 1 card vs. your 2 cards and any Bridges you may have in your GY. Seems like a fair trade from their point of view.

[Snowfire]

My mainboard is identical so ChemicalBurns' one despite of the 3rd Chancellor over the 3rd Nether Shadow.

My sideboard looks like this:

3 contagion
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 disruption shoal
1 chancellor of the Annex
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie macabre

I want to give it a run on Sunday.

What do you think of Ashen Rider? He might improve the Lands and SnT matchup imo.

Also i sometimes dont know how to sideboard.

For example vs DnT i probably want Vengeful Pharaoh, Disrupting shoal and maybe even contagion. How do you fit these in? Do you cut Chancellor in this MU?

[Echelon]

What do you think of Ashen Rider? He might improve the Lands and SnT matchup imo.

Also i sometimes dont know how to sideboard.

For example vs DnT i probably want Vengeful Pharaoh, Disrupting shoal and maybe even contagion. How do you fit these in? Do you cut Chancellor in this MU?

The biggest problem you face vs. Lands is Bojuka Bog + Wasteland + Life From the Loam, Rider doesn't help you there.

As for D&T - they have very little in the way of card selection. You can always opt to try and outrun them if they whiff on hate w/ their opening hand.

[Final Fortune]

I understand the general utility of Force of Will, but I don't think it's enough to deal with combo in and of itself game 1 and I know it's not the best post-board configuration vs combo game 2. While cards like Mindbreak Trap and Unmask might be more linear, it's not as if the SB can be utilized in any other more meaningful way than hating out one of the deck's natural predators. Why I think 4 MD Chancellor of the Void is "necessary" is that the meta you should be playing Manaless Dredge in would be Miracles, Deathrite Shaman.dec, Eldrazi, D&T etc. where Storm and Reanimator are hard pressed to compete, so there's no reason to play MD Force of Will over a more efficient counter to Deathrite Shaman.

I just don't think cutting down on consistency is ever a good idea in the long run with a deck that is literally Time Walked by the mulligan. Obviously we are all going to play whatever we want, but I think a lot of people here are getting tunnel vision from FoW.

[Echelon]

Obviously we are all going to play whatever we want, but I think a lot of people here are getting tunnel vision from FoW.

Seconded!

[ChemicalBurns]

Why I think 4 MD Chancellor of the Void is "necessary" is that the meta you should be playing Manaless Dredge in would be Miracles, Deathrite Shaman.dec, Eldrazi, D&T etc. where Storm and Reanimator are hard pressed to compete, so there's no reason to play MD Force of Will over a more efficient counter to Deathrite Shaman.

I think I understand why our opinions on Force diverge so much. It's really a matter of perspective of how we perceive the deck.

I feel that you, and I'm sure many others (though correct me if I'm wrong) see Manaless as purely a "metagame deck" that can only shine in grindy, midrangey, controlly metagames with a lack of combo and a bountiful amounts of Deathrite Shamans - if this isn't the case, just play another deck.

And this is true to some extent, as Manaless will always shine brightest in metagames low on graveyard hate, and indeed I'm not going to be piloting it in a field of Leylines etc. However, when I build my list, I suppose I aim for overall raw power and ability to interact with a much wider field, taking into account that I will likely play against combo and unexpected things. And hence, we come to main deck Force of Will. I suppose Force of Will in the main pushes the deck's power level for a more general field upwards, but reduces its strength against a more narrow metagame that you've been targeting Fortune - while also adding potential inconsistencies in the deck too. Power vs. Consistency, the usual trade-off within much deck design, is at the forefront of this decision.

With Prized Amalgam's printing, adding Force to elevate the deck above its previous niche status as a "metagame deck", and into a deck that can be strong in a more open metagame, seemed like a consideration; and aiming to do this is what I have been, and will be doing, as I tune my list going forward. However, while doing so, I'll be deeply considering your words above. Maybe it is just better to let Manaless be a monster of unprepared metagames and not dilute the deck. Or maybe both pathways are equally valid - Rollan's Top 8 with FoW Manaless at BoM Paris seems to indicate that the deck can take down more open metagames. In the end, let's just keep testing and move forward from there.

[Echelon]

Or maybe both pathways are equally valid - Rollan's Top 8 with FoW Manaless at BoM Paris seems to indicate that the deck can take down more open metagames. In the end, let's just keep testing and move forward from there.

Do we have any idea what his MUs were..? A little bit of luck goes a long way with this deck.

[Xenio]

Do we have any idea what his MUs were..? A little bit of luck goes a long way with this deck.

He post a report on Legacy france : http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12478&st=0
But it's in french.

This is a sum up on his event :

Round 1 : VS 4C Stoneblade
Game 1 : Swords and spell pierce use but nothing can stop the zombies
Game 2 : RIP T2, counter by force. And slowly kill by zombies

Round 2 : VS Eldrazi
Game 1 : 2 Warping Mail on Ichorid, nothing more from the opponent.
Game 2 : Vengeful Pharaoh kill 2 smasher, 3 Ichoride creat to more pressure for Eldrazi.

Round 3 : VS Grixis Delver
Game 1 : Chancellor + FOW make the enemy slower, a late DRS come but Dread return on wirlpool into FLayer into Golgary close the game.
Game 2 : Double chancellor but delver hurt a lot, and take the game.
Game 3 : Enemy got Delver but not shaman, he can't run faster than dredge this time.

Round 4 : VS Elfe
Game 1 : Combo battle, dredge take game 1.
Game 2 : DRS is a pain
Game 3 : No combo for the elf and no DRS, so easy game

Round 5 : BUG elf Opposition
Game 1 : Some miss play form the manaless deck make the game more equal (DRS when a shaman untap is here) but elf run out of mana and dredge win.
Game 2 : Thorn of Amethiste is a pain in the ass sometimes
Game 3 : Double DRS :frown:

Round 6 : VS Elf
Game 1 : Dredge combo faster
Game 2 : Contagion kill lyanowar and dryad arbor. Behemoth get force. (Force op)

Round 7 : VS Sneak and show
Game 1 : Show and tell played Griselbrand in a side, Chancellor in the other. Chancelor is boring for the opponent =) Dredge kill T4.
Game 2 : Showand tell who fizzle (don't kill on the turn). Flayer kill him.

Round 8 : VS Eldrazi
Game 1 : Only aggro from Eldrazi Dredge kill with Flayer
Game 2 : Leyline of the void
Game 3 : Leyline of the void

Round 9 : VS 4C delver
Game 1 : Only delver, so no problem
Game 2 : Same

So 7-2 only loosing against Eldrazi and BUG elf opposition.

A sick lose on quarter final.

If you want to see the exact report go to the link, i try to give the more important information (i never say the chancellor T0 but he have them in some of the game)
Depending on the game, the in was always Contagion or Vengeful Pharaoh and sometimes the blu shoal and out 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Brige from below, 1-3 Neither shadow

[ChemicalBurns]

He post a report on Legacy france : http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12478&st=0
But it's in french.

This is a sum up on his event :

Round 1 : VS 4C Stoneblade
Game 1 : Swords and spell pierce use but nothing can stop the zombies
Game 2 : RIP T2, counter by force. And slowly kill by zombies

Round 2 : VS Eldrazi
Game 1 : 2 Warping Mail on Ichorid, nothing more from the opponent.
Game 2 : Vengeful Pharaoh kill 2 smasher, 3 Ichoride creat to more pressure for Eldrazi.

Round 3 : VS Grixis Delver
Game 1 : Chancellor + FOW make the enemy slower, a late DRS come but Dread return on wirlpool into FLayer into Golgary close the game.
Game 2 : Double chancellor but delver hurt a lot, and take the game.
Game 3 : Enemy got Delver but not shaman, he can't run faster than dredge this time.

Round 4 : VS Elfe
Game 1 : Combo battle, dredge take game 1.
Game 2 : DRS is a pain
Game 3 : No combo for the elf and no DRS, so easy game

Round 5 : BUG elf Opposition
Game 1 : Some miss play form the manaless deck make the game more equal (DRS when a shaman untap is here) but elf run out of mana and dredge win.
Game 2 : Thorn of Amethiste is a pain in the ass sometimes
Game 3 : Double DRS :frown:

Round 6 : VS Elf
Game 1 : Dredge combo faster
Game 2 : Contagion kill lyanowar and dryad arbor. Behemoth get force. (Force op)

Round 7 : VS Sneak and show
Game 1 : Show and tell played Griselbrand in a side, Chancellor in the other. Chancelor is boring for the opponent =) Dredge kill T4.
Game 2 : Showand tell who fizzle (don't kill on the turn). Flayer kill him.

Round 8 : VS Eldrazi
Game 1 : Only aggro from Eldrazi Dredge kill with Flayer
Game 2 : Leyline of the void
Game 3 : Leyline of the void

Round 9 : VS 4C delver
Game 1 : Only delver, so no problem
Game 2 : Same

So 7-2 only loosing against Eldrazi and BUG elf opposition.

A sick lose on quarter final.

If you want to see the exact report go to the link, i try to give the more important information (i never say the chancellor T0 but he have them in some of the game)
Depending on the game, the in was always Contagion or Vengeful Pharaoh and sometimes the blu shoal and out 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Brige from below, 1-3 Neither shadow

Thank you Xenio! Pretty interesting stuff, certainly a lot of fairness in the room (which means that g1 FoW wasn't entirely necessary), though seems like the blanket utility of FoW was also useful enough - it it looked strong post-board. Would love to see Rollan make some comments on The Source, since judging from the French Legacy forum there's a lot interesting points he's made, though Google Translate is kind of garbling the information for me. >_<

[Final Fortune]

I think I understand why our opinions on Force diverge so much. It's really a matter of perspective of how we perceive the deck.

I feel that you, and I'm sure many others (though correct me if I'm wrong) see Manaless as purely a "metagame deck" that can only shine in grindy, midrangey, controlly metagames with a lack of combo and a bountiful amounts of Deathrite Shamans - if this isn't the case, just play another deck.

And this is true to some extent, as Manaless will always shine brightest in metagames low on graveyard hate, and indeed I'm not going to be piloting it in a field of Leylines etc. However, when I build my list, I suppose I aim for overall raw power and ability to interact with a much wider field, taking into account that I will likely play against combo and unexpected things. And hence, we come to main deck Force of Will. I suppose Force of Will in the main pushes the deck's power level for a more general field upwards, but reduces its strength against a more narrow metagame that you've been targeting Fortune - while also adding potential inconsistencies in the deck too. Power vs. Consistency, the usual trade-off within much deck design, is at the forefront of this decision.

With Prized Amalgam's printing, adding Force to elevate the deck above its previous niche status as a "metagame deck", and into a deck that can be strong in a more open metagame, seemed like a consideration; and aiming to do this is what I have been, and will be doing, as I tune my list going forward. However, while doing so, I'll be deeply considering your words above. Maybe it is just better to let Manaless be a monster of unprepared metagames and not dilute the deck. Or maybe both pathways are equally valid - Rollan's Top 8 with FoW Manaless at BoM Paris seems to indicate that the deck can take down more open metagames. In the end, let's just keep testing and move forward from there.

I was one of the guys who originally came up with MD Force of Will, I say this so you know I've been on both sides of the argument. The thing that I think a lot of people over look is that spells in general decrease the consistency of the deck, because you are losing creature density for Nether Spirit activations, which decreases Prized Amalgram activations, which delays Dread Return etc. It's the main reason I have never liked Gitaxian Probe, and you start to realize a lot of questionable cards are attached to FoW.

I am not saying FoW is bad or that Fow builds can't win, I'm just saying it isn't necessarily the end all be all for the archetype and a lot of us who have played the deck since inception mainly keep doing so because of its consistency and as a meta breaker.

TLDR keep playing FoW, not because its best but because it lets those of us who aren't bluff ;)

[Sovelis]

Just got back home from Eternal Weekend. Played the following list.


4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Contagion
3 Leyline of Sanctity

Here's my abbreviated report

Round 1 vs Belcher
Game 1: He goes to combo on turn 1 but I have FoW.
Game 2: I keep a semi-fast hand with Phantasmagorian, Grave-troll, Street Wraith, a FoW and some other non blue cards. He goes to kill me on turn 1. I have to cycle street wraith in response to him casting Charbelcher to find a blue card. I did.
W 2-0. Overall Record 1-0 (2-0 in games)

Round 2 vs Abzan
Game 1: He starts on turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. His turn 2 he goes to remove my Grave-Troll but I have Street Wraith. He eats a few Ichorids over the next few turns but I'm able to combo him out.
Game 2: He mulligans to 3 to try and find Leyline of the Void. Doesn't find it. He "time walks" me for a few turns with a Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek but after those run out, I beat him down with an Ichorid and some zombies.
W 2-0. Overall Record 2-0 (4-0 in games)

Round 3 vs Grixis Delver
Game 1: Another turn 1 Deathrite Shaman for my Stinkweed Imp but again I have Street Wraith. He doesn't have anything else going on and it's pretty elementary for me to win.
Game 2: I keep an opening hand that beats Deathrite Shaman but I lose to Grafdiggers Cage.
Game 3: I adjust my sideboarding to have a few more outs to Cage. I mulligan to 6 and reluctantly keep a hand that can't beat Cage but does still beat Deathrite Shaman. He has Cage.
L 1-2. Overall Record 2-1 (5-2 in games)

Round 4 vs UR Delver
Game 1: My opponent mulligans to 5 and is never really in this game. He bolts me a bit but can't interact with my horde of undead.
Game 2: My opening 7 includes 0 dredgers, 3 Narcomoeba's, and 0 probes/street wraiths for redraws. My 6 is not much better with 0 dredgers, 2 Narcomoeba's, and 1 Gitaxian probe. I never draw a dredger. I die pretty quickly
Game 3: Things play out normally with him bolting me early and playing a Delver but after a few turns he dies to dudes.
W 2-1. Overall Record 3-1 (7-3 in games)

Round 5 vs UR Delver
Game 1: My opponent mulligans to 6 and does nothing but play some lands. His life total goes from 20 to 16 to 0.
Game 2: He comes out of the gates early with a Delver that doesn't flip and 2 Monastery Swiftspears. Game state is those 3 creatures in play for him. I'm at 6 life with a zombie and Prized Amalgam. 2 Bridges in the yard. I sacrifice the amalgam to cabal therapy him and name Force of Will, miss but see a chain lightning. I only have a single dread return as my only other sacrifice outlet and no Whirlpool Rider to get with it. I do have Flayer. Can't let the delver flip or I die. I sac the 3 zombies to dread return the Flayer hitting my opponent for 4. EoT, 2 Prized Amaglams come back. I place the flayer triggers on the stack targeting the Delver of Secrets and my own Flayer. This lets the Flayer die getting me 2 zombies to block his swiftspears, undying triggers bringing back flayer to dome my opponent for 5, then finally the first flayer trigger resolves killing my opponent's Delver. My opponent still has the out of ripping a bolt spell to kill me but misses.
W 2-0. Overall Record 4-1 (9-3 in games)

Round 6 vs Miracles
Game 1: Game plays according to script and I slowly grind him out making sure to not over commit too many Ichorid's into Terminus.
Game 2: He tries to Surgical Extraction an early Grave-Troll but I have the Street Wraith. He does manage to Snapcaster back the extraction on my Bridges. This game goes long and as I'm trying to close it out, he lands an Izzet Staticaster to keep 3 Ichorids in check and only take damage from a Narcomoeba. This goes on for 2 turns. I see a dredge that puts 2 more Narcomoebas in play to increase the clock. I have a Dread Return that I can cash in these narcos to put a large Grave Troll in play and force a block from the staticaster but decide against it to play around Swords to Plowshares and Jace, TMS. On my opponents next turn he staticasters my Narcos and slams Containment Priest.
Game 3: He slams an early Mentor and goes to race. I'm at 11. He attacks me with 5 2/2 monks and a Snapcaster mage. I have 5 zombies and a tapped amalgam in play. I block 3 monks with 3 zombies to leave me with 3 guaranteed dudes in play to try and combo him out on my next turn. He Brainstorms into another Brainstorm and StP to kill me.
L 1-2. Overall Record 4-2 (10-5 in games)

Round 7 vs Miracles
Game 1: Nothing fancy here. Just good, old fashioned zombie beat down.
Game 2: Things go pretty well with my opponent pondering and brainstorming to find stuff to interact with me. There comes a point where he has 2 cards in hand and I know one is good because he kept it on top with a ponder and just drew it. He's tapped out so I narrow it down to naming cards i can't beat. Rest in Peace vs. Containment Priest. I go for the creature and snipe it from his hand. He then miracles an Entreat the Angels for 3 to my board of a single zombie. My dredge hits a Whirlpool Rider which allows me to combo kill him.
W 2-0. Overall Record 5-2 (12-5 in games)

Round 8 vs Storm
Game 1: He makes 12 goblins on turn 1. I am able to put 2 nether shadows in play with a chance (albeit very small) to hit an amazing dredge 6 and hopefully kill him. Didn't get there.
Game 2: I land a Leyline of Sanctity to shut off tendrils. Turn 2 he goes through the motions to make some mana and cast a burning wish and crack LED in response. I have Disrupting Shoal + Narcomoeba for it.
Game 3: I land Leyline again but don't have any countermagic. He makes 12 goblins and gets me down to 6. I have an Amalgam in play and an Ichorid coming back on my upkeep. No bridges in the yard. I have the 3rd dude I need to go off in the form of a second Ichorid stuck in my hand. No Phantasmagorians in the yard either. EoT I cycle a Street Wraith and dredge 6. A Narco or Phantasmagorian probably win me the game (not guaranteed but close). Miss on both. Ichorid comes back in upkeep. Dredge another 6 for my draw. 2x Narco, 2x Bridge, or one of each probably win me the game. I hit bridge but no narco and lose.
L 1-2. Overall Record 5-3 (13-7 in games)

Round 9 vs Belcher
Game 1: He makes 8 goblins on turn 2 which I am able to answer with enough zombies to stop his attacking. A few turns later I combo him out.
Game 2: I muligan to 6 and keep on a reasonably fast hand with Stinkweed, Street Wraith, Narcomoeba, Disrupting Shoal and 2 other cards. He makes 8 goblins on turn 1 casting no 2-mana spells. Due to my mulligan, I can't keep up.
Game 3: He's on the play. I keep with a dredger, a FoW, and some other blue cards in hand. He plays Chrome Mox. Resolves. Imprint Simian Spirit Guide. Chrome Mox. Resolves. Imprint Simian Spirit Guide. Cast Rite of Flame. At this point he has 2 cards left. One has to be either Empty the Warrens or Charbelcher. The other I assume is a mana source. If he has Ritual+Belcher I can counter either so I should let Rite resolve. If he has Ritual + Empty I should let Rite resolve and counter the next ritual. If he has Spirit Guide+Belcher I can counter Belcher so I should let Rite resolve. I let Rite of Flames resolve completely forgetting about and neglecting the last scenario. If he has Spirit Guide+Empty I need to counter this Rite of Flame. He has Spirit Guide + Empty and makes 8 goblins and I don't find enough with my dredges to combo him before he kills me.
L 1-2. Overall Record 5-4 (14-9 in games)

Round 10 vs Chipotle Burrito
Game 1: I crush his Carnitas and vegetables in about 6 minutes.
Game 2: He sides in Chips and Guacamole but I am able to dispatch them too rather quickly

It was great to finally make it out and jam Dredge again. My rust showed but I had a ton of fun and all my opponents were pleasant for the most part. I know I made some mistakes and could have made other plays that would have put me in better positions to win. There were also a couple of times where variance didn't go my way but that is to be expected with a deck like this.

The deck feels insane. Manaless Dredge does not get enough credit for being a "real" deck. I loved the blue package. I don't think I would play this deck without at least FoW in the 75. The verdict is still out on Shoal but I was super glad I had it. I don't have enough reps in with Chancellor of the Annex to say whether or not I prefer it in the list I did play. I sided out Shambling Shell a lot so 2x Chancellor would fit right there making the main deck exactly like ChemicalBurns. I'm just way to scared to not play 14 dredgers even if it may be correct to play 12. It did come up where I only had Shell as a dredger for one turn in game 2 against storm.

Take from this what you will. I had a blast and would run the event back again with the same 75 in a heartbeat.

[Echelon]

@Sovelis: Congrats on the result, great report!

[Snowfire]

I had a 81 people tournament yesterday with the following list:

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 1 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 1 Ashen Rider

Round 1: Miracles (2-1)

G1 I had him at 7 life when he slammed down a Rest in Peace. I just looked at him asking "mainboard?". Turned out he played a combo package consisting of 4 Rest in Peace, 3 Helm of Obedience and 3 Enlightened Tutor. G2 I was in aggro mode, when he played an Energy Field. Luckily I dredged a Cabal Therapy, hit a Force of Will and killed him. G3 he was sitting on 1 land with RIP and double FoW backup on his hand. I just killed him and couldn't believe I really took down 4 RIP (+3 Enlightened Tutor) mainboard.

Record: 1-0

Round 2: Junk (0-2)

G1 I had to mull a hand without any dredgers plus 2 Narcos and couldn't race a T3 Batterskull off Stoneforge Mystic. G2 he starts with Deathrite Shaman eating my Ichorids. I had enough dredgers though because of Phantasmagorian. Well Dark Confidant drew him a Rest in Peace I couldn't handle.

Record: 1-1

Round 3: Aluren (2-0)

Daaamn Chancellor is so good vs Aluren, shuts down the whole combo. Chancellor took G1. G2 my opponent had to mull down to 4 cards. I had a fast start with Street Wraith and I think Gitaxian Probe. On my second turn he had 1 land in play and 4 cards on hand. I had a playset of Therapies in my graveyard and enough creatures to cast all of them. I took his whole hand by the second turn (incl. Containment Priest and Scavenging Ooze). Yup, he was kinda sad after that.

Record: 2-1

Round 4: Shardless BUG (2-0)

In G1 he had a T2 Deathrite Shaman (I think Chancellor delayed that for a turn) but I just overpowered him with creatures. Same thing in G2. His life total went from 20 to 16 to 0.

Record: 3-1

Round 5: BURG goodstuff (1-2)

He had 2 Inquisition of Kozilek in the first two turns followed by 2 Deathrite Shamans. I don't remember how, but I won G1. In the two postboard games he just had too damn much hate. 3 Deathrite Shamans and 1 Nihil Spellbomb on G2, 2 Deathrite Shamans and 2 Nihil Spellbombs on G3 plus several Daze each game, which slowed me down pretty well. I could always handle 1-2 Deathrites, but in total it was just too much hate to deal with.

Record: 3-2

Round 6: Eldrazi (0-2)

G1: T1 Mimic --> T2 Smasher --> T3 Thought-Knot Seer
G2: Leyline

Record: 3-3

Round 7: Burn (2-0)

He didn't get what was going on, my whole deck was a mystery to him plus he had bad hands. He mulled to 6 in G1 and to 5 in G2 (couldn't find his Relics). In G1 I beat him down on T3 with 3 Amalgams, 3 Ichorid and 2 Nether Shadow. In G2 I combo killed him.

Record: 4-3

I finished on 21st place out of 81 contestants, which is fine I guess.

_____


My thoughts to the list: Force of Will was completely unneccesary the whole tournament (at least G1). I'm thinking about moving them to the sideboard and adding the 4th Chancellor and more redundancy to the maindeck, but I'm not really sure.

What are your experiences vs Death n Taxes? I dodged all of them yesterday, but there were at least 9/81 DnT players there. I feel like G1 is already hard vs Thalia 1 and Thalia 2 and postboard RIP and Priest make it even harder. How do you sideboard?

[Xenio]

My thoughts to the list: Force of Will was completely unneccesary the whole tournament (at least G1). I'm thinking about moving them to the sideboard and adding the 4th Chancellor and more redundancy to the maindeck, but I'm not really sure.

Maybe Force is not amazing game 1 but it's really good against a lot of combo G1, i think choosing between chancellor and FOW depend on the meta.


What are your experiences vs Death n Taxes? I dodged all of them yesterday, but there were at least 9/81 DnT players there. I feel like G1 is already hard vs Thalia 1 and Thalia 2 and postboard RIP and Priest make it even harder. How do you sideboard?

Ichoride make you win.
Force is need against RIP, they will fear the spped of your deck so they will often use it T2 on not T3 with a Thalia in the board.
I Side in 3 Vengeful Pharaoh, never side out your creature and remove 1 bridge, 1 phantasmagorian, 1 Dread return (i'm a crazy man with 3 contagion MD). You can remove Flayer and other dread return, combo is nearly useless against D&T with Thalia and Swords.

[ChemicalBurns]

@Snowfire and Sovelis, really interesting that there's such diverging opinions on FoW. It really is looking like a metagame consideration - I'm sure against Belcher they were much appreciated, but Snowfires incredibly fair meta made them at times look like a liability I'm sure.

Anyway, just went to my weekly with Manaless again, ended up 3-1. Although I love Force in the MD, I tried without it in the main and came with... mixed feelings in the end.

Free Creatures: (19)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers/Discard: (18)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell

Disruption: (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Annex

Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard: (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
2 Faerie Macabre

Round 1: vs. Reanimator

Game 1: He gets a fast Elesh Norn. I get three Amalgams into play off a Shadow due to an absurd Dredge but need to fight through inevitable countermagic. I Therapy him once, he Dazes. He has one card in hand. I can Therapy again and name Force, then cycle Wraith to hope my Dredge hits a Narco and I still have 3 Amalgams in play next turn. But I feel it's too risky, and pass. I cycle Wraith, hit a Narco that immediately dies, triggering my one Amalgam. I DR targetting Flayer for... Some amount of damage (reduced by Elesh, ofc, but no other choice b/c I don't think there was a Rider in my GY) but he drew a blue card for turn. If I Therapied for Force, might've got there.

+4 Force
+4 Shoal
+2 Faerie
+2 Pharaoh
-3 Shadow
-4 Bridge
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-2 Shambling Shell

Game 2: I have a Faerie in hand. I Dredge off a Stinky but whiff, and end up with a few turns with no Dredgers due to him tearing apart my hand with a Collective Brutality. He eventually casts S&T, I put in Imp. Next turn I do nothing, he attacks with Griselbrand into my Imp - not realising they trade. He draws a bunch of cards but kind of whiffs... And I drew another Faerie (so I have two Fae in hand). I Dredge Imp (got a Dredger in my yard thanks to the trade!). He eventually has to go for an Exhume and I get a Chancellor in play, he has a Blazing Archon after I Faerie away some stuff. Chancellor slows him down enough for to eventually combo out.

Game 3: I have a Faerie, Force and Shoal all with good cards to pitch... But no Dredger. I have a Wraith tho, so I can dig. I whiff, get my hand shredded and die after he Reanimates my own Flayer.

Game 1 I wished I had Force.

Round 2: vs. Jund
Game 1: Chancellor and Wraith ruin hiss DRS and I easy kill him.

+2 Contagion
-1 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Prized Amalgam

Cutting into blue cards feels nice.

Game 2: I Dredge fast but eventually run out of steam and only have a Narco and Amalgam in play. He eventually gets DRS online and I'm stuck. However, I keep pressuring his life total and eventually he lands a Goyf... He starts attacking with it but I have two Bridges in the yard, so I block with Narco... He then Bolts his DRS. I then have my engine running and kill him.

Round 3: vs. Burn

Game 1: Combo out very fast with Wraith and two Probes.

+2 Contagion
+4 Force of Will
-1 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Nether Shadow

Game 2: Tear apart his hand, he has a sideboard card in his hand but its Pyroblast so... Yeah. Combo out and kill him. I had Force the whole game for the inevitable Cage/Crypt/Reliche should've mulled towards.

Round 4: vs. Sneak & Show

Game 1: Is pretty awesome; I get some stuff going early with some Narcos, Ickies and Amalgams. I go for a blind Therapy and I'm ready to name S&T (since I'm pretty sure that's what this guy is typically on). It gets Pierced. He S&Ts, he puts in Emrakul I put in Flayer. Upkeep Ickies enter dealing him a bunch from Flayer triggers and I swing through Emrakul for lethal.

+4 Force of Will
+4 Disrupting Shoal
-2 Shambling Shell
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Phantasmagorian
-1 Bridge from Below

Game 2: Is also sweet. He jams a turn two Show and Tell (off a City) and I have Force... And drew a Probe for my draw step, phew! I assemble a small army and he eventually Shows in Griselbrand (his City ends up dying) - I show in Chancellor. I pass back to him the turn after and he can draw a bunch of cards to go for the Sneak Attack kill - but Chancellor is really ruining his day. He draws a bunch, he tries to cantrip but his mana is stressed that he has to pass - if he attacks, he trades with my Chancellor and Narcos. I untap and start Therapying his hand, primarily looking for Sneak Attack. He has one mana up but can't cast the Spell Pierce in his hand. He's on ~10 life I think. I go to DR Rider and he doesn't draw cards for Force - because he'd then be in for a lethal attack. So I kill him.

I think some of my opponent's played pretty poorly contributing to some of my wins, but in the end the deck performed fine.I think I'll keep my FoW in the main, but I can see the strength of going no FoWs. The Jund matchup, esp. g1, felt so easy with so much redundant protection.

I think I'll be re-adding FoW to the main, trimming Shoals and likely adding an Ashen Rider somewhere. I also love having 3 Faeries and Unmasks would be nice to squeeze in.

[Xenio]

@Snowfire and Sovelis, really interesting that there's such diverging opinions on FoW. It really is looking like a metagame consideration - I'm sure against Belcher they were much appreciated, but Snowfires incredibly fair meta made them at times look like a liability I'm sure.

Force is maybe a must have with the RB reanimator which is really strong (Tiers 2 at least and getting more popular : cheap and fun), moreover lands players start to play eva green Depths because it's easy win against miracle and D&T getting more popular too and a Force on Thalia make the game 1 really easier.

[Blastoderm]

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

[Echelon]

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

Phantasmagorian helps facilitate your most broken openings, so don't go below 3 when boarding. As for Shells - I tend not to board out dredgers at all.

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

I tend to trim Shells in fast matchups where he's just not going to dig us deep enough into disruption. Also, you're correct about Phantas. He's definitely strong vs. DRS and also gives powerful utility in dumping our hand g1 when it's safe to go "all-in". However, in matchups vs combo where we often want cards in hand (eg. FoW, Unmask etc.) he's not as useful and can be trimmed. I trim them pretty aggressively vs. combo (which may be wrong, since they do let you pitch Therapies in hand) but in these matchups they certainly have diminishing returns.

[Echelon]

Yeah, might be worth mentioning I'm on the Spy list so that basically leaves me w/ Mindbreak Trap/Unmask/Contagion.

[Xenio]

After doing the Last Chance Qualifier for the french cup and thé french cup (around 15 rounds) I think i will play 3 unmask in side for auto discard turn1 against Ad nauseam. Nothing more to say.
Julien who was top8 at the BOM Paris finish first in the LCQ with nearly the same list than me (1 card different in MD) (blu list).

[dte]

After doing the Last Chance Qualifier for the french cup and thé french cup (around 15 rounds) I think i will play 3 unmask in side for auto discard turn1 against Ad nauseam. Nothing more to say.
Julien who was top8 at the BOM Paris finish first in the LCQ with nearly the same list than me (1 card different in MD) (blu list).

To complete the previous post, here is the list Julien piloted, the same exact 75 he ran in Paris (in fact he didn't play in between the two journeys):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279096&f=LE

He finished first, starting 7-0 then ID.

No shell, 4 CotA & 4 FoW MD.

[Final Fortune]

Force is maybe a must have with the RB reanimator which is really strong (Tiers 2 at least and getting more popular : cheap and fun), moreover lands players start to play eva green Depths because it's easy win against miracle and D&T getting more popular too and a Force on Thalia make the game 1 really easier.

Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

[Echelon]

Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

You can always try and trick them into Reanimating your Balustrade Spy, targeting you (when you run a Progenitus in the MB). That would be the most epic win ever.

[dte]

Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

I do not know if you are trolling or simply do not understand the MU. FoW is stellar in the MU, as:
- in more than 2/3 of the cases, Br rea does not have cota protection and fow is golden;
- in the remaining third your first spell will be countered. You want to overload this effect so one of your fow/1st cabal/noxious/surgical is not countered. Having more free spell is key here.

[jdmdave]

So should I man up and play this @ GP Chiba (Force ver) tomorrow or stick to Turbo Depths :cool:

[mistercakes]

Obviously man up. Otherwise ask in the turbo depths thread. :)

[GoldenCid]

To complete the previous post, here is the list Julien piloted, the same exact 75 he ran in Paris (in fact he didn't play in between the two journeys):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279096&f=LE

He finished first, starting 7-0 then ID.

No shell, 4 CotA & 4 FoW MD.

Which is the impact of reducing "free guys" for FoW?

[Final Fortune]

I do not know if you are trolling or simply do not understand the MU. FoW is stellar in the MU, as:
- in more than 2/3 of the cases, Br rea does not have cota protection and fow is golden;
- in the remaining third your first spell will be countered. You want to overload this effect so one of your fow/1st cabal/noxious/surgical is not countered. Having more free spell is key here.

They have Chancellor 40% of the time in their opening hand and can go off faster than you can play a Cabal Therapy to pay for the Daze on Force of Will as opposed to just having a Faerie or Leyline which you can cast thru Chancellor and delay them indefinitely.

The match up is insanely bad without hate, Force of Will isn't changing that fact at all and you're back to running wortgless blue cards to support a tempermental disruption card instead of running dedicated hate or Pharaoh post board.

I have played the match up a ton, it's terrible regardless of FoW and meeds a dedicated board.

[jdmdave]

I played Turbo Depths to a 11-4 finish, but I saw a manaless player (force) in the X-3 slot late in Day 2.

[dte]

They have Chancellor 40% of the time in their opening hand and can go off faster than you can play a Cabal Therapy to pay for the Daze on Force of Will as opposed to just having a Faerie or Leyline which you can cast thru Chancellor and delay them indefinitely.

The match up is insanely bad without hate, Force of Will isn't changing that fact at all and you're back to running wortgless blue cards to support a tempermental disruption card instead of running dedicated hate or Pharaoh post board.

I have played the match up a ton, it's terrible regardless of FoW and meeds a dedicated board.

I do not know what you do wrong, but you surely should pile up missplays to have played the MU a ton and found it to be terrible.

I played against it quite a bit, and found it even to slightly positive. FoW, shoal, noxious, surgical, faeries, pharaoh are all very good here. And it isnt even that bad preboard (with fow and cota MD).

Leyline of the void is quite a bad card in manaless dredge.

What you seem to fail to grasp here is that the deck is not "diluted" or slower vs combo, as the draw spells, icho, cabal and narco are still playsets.

[Snowfire]

I'm taking Manaless to Frankfurt (Germany) next weekend and wanted to share the list I am planning to play.

MAINBOARD

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Phantasmagorian

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SIDEBOARD

3 Contagion
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Disrupting Shoal
1 Ashen Rider

I'm planning to run full playsets of Chancellors and Forces because I want to be prepared for a wide meta with probably a good amount of the new BR Reanimator (that's also the reason for 4 instead of 3 Faeries in the sideboard). Unfortunately I couldn't fit in Nether Shadow as I cut them entirely in favor of Forces.

Any thoughts of the list?

How do you guys board vs DnT? Do you prefer Shoals (RIP/Priest/Thalia), Pharaohs or Contagion?

Would very appreciate a little help, thanks! :-)

[dte]

on the MD I would replace the fourth amalgam by the first shadow.
On the SB, I like to play a package with different hates, like 2 macabres, 2 SE, 1 noxious. I would cut the fourth Shoal, it is a bit disappointing.

Anyway, it is only minor things. Overall, looks pretty good ;)

[Final Fortune]

I do not know what you do wrong, but you surely should pile up missplays to have played the MU a ton and found it to be terrible.

I played against it quite a bit, and found it even to slightly positive. FoW, shoal, noxious, surgical, faeries, pharaoh are all very good here. And it isnt even that bad preboard (with fow and cota MD).

Leyline of the void is quite a bad card in manaless dredge.

What you seem to fail to grasp here is that the deck is not "diluted" or slower vs combo, as the draw spells, icho, cabal and narco are still playsets.

I honestly don't understand why you continue to devolve the argument into ad hominems, I've played the deck for a long time and played the deck vs B/r Reanimator recently, and considering B/r Reanimator is a DTB and has a generally positive win rate vs aggro-control I don't see how you can claim that Manaless Dredge has a positive win rate vs it with even less disruption.

Maybe you run really hot vs the deck, but I haven't been able to beat it in a 3 round match without Leyline - and I fail to see how Surgical Extraction is any better vs the deck when it runs afoul of disruption and doesnt win the game outright, why dedicate SB space to a lower impact card?

[ahg113]

How do you guys board vs DnT? Do you prefer Shoals (RIP/Priest/Thalia), Pharaohs or Contagion?

Would very appreciate a little help, thanks! :-)

Shoals & Pharaohs for sure. It's most important to counter any grave hate/Priest. The Pharaohs will slow down a lot of their ability to attack. Contagion is a good card, but I expect there to be a landed Thalia in this match-up. The Shoal will at least help fight her landing on the board, but after she lands, all of your spells are useless. Contagion is only good with her on the field so... it reasons it's effectively a dead card (minus a natch get on summoning sick Mom).

Also recommend finding a room for a shadow or two. Agree with shave an Amalgam, and possibly also a Gitaxian Probe. Blue count would still be at 17, higher than the requisite 16, and finding room for an extra free body.

Good luck, happy hunting.

[dte]

I honestly don't understand why you continue to devolve the argument into ad hominems, I've played the deck for a long time and played the deck vs B/r Reanimator recently, and considering B/r Reanimator is a DTB and has a generally positive win rate vs aggro-control I don't see how you can claim that Manaless Dredge has a positive win rate vs it with even less disruption.

Maybe you run really hot vs the deck, but I haven't been able to beat it in a 3 round match without Leyline - and I fail to see how Surgical Extraction is any better vs the deck when it runs afoul of disruption and doesnt win the game outright, why dedicate SB space to a lower impact card?

I'm not making any ad hominem. But if you cannot beat this deck, you should consider that either your list or your plays are wrong (to beat this deck).
You speak about loading up on dudes, which are useless against combo, and then complain than you can't beat the fastest combo deck. Consider that it could be because you tried to have a very resilient deck. I personally feel that the deck is "too consistent", and that we should lower its consistency in order to be more reactive/disruptive, as ignoring what our opponent is doing is a problem vs faster decks.

Listwise, I would advise 4 FoW and 4 CotA MD and a mix of noxious, faeries and surgical SB plus shoals & pharaos. Just try, to see what it does vs RB rea. Drop MB trap, which does next to nothing vs rea and is less good than FoW vs storm.

Vs D&T, I bring in shoal (all their real threats cost two) and pharaos but no contagion, which are lackluster vs Thalia & mom, and remove some 3 probes, 1 amalgam, 1 CotA and 1 phantasmagorian.

[Final Fortune]

I've used all variants of the deck posted and the Force of Will/Chancellor of the Annex list is just inconsistent in mulligans and vs hate, I'm sure it has a better game 1 vs B/r Reanimator but I know it has a worse match up because Faerie Macabre or whatever else makes no sense over Leyline of the Void in a deck that doesn't draw cards. Faster combo decks have strategy superiority, being worse vs the decks we are targeting in a metagame where said decks should be surpressing faster combo doesn't make a lot of sense to begin with. But in the event you do encounter B/r Reanimator, which should be further surpressing Storm, then emulating a worse aggro-control deck over just mulliganing for a silver bullet doesn't seem like the best strategy available. Surgical Extraction seems like the worst conceivable SB card possible for a deck with no Lands vs a deck with Chancellor, why would you ever play that over Faerie Macabre even?

I've stood on both sides of the match up, and this commanding win percentage you claim to have vs the deck is some where over the rainbow.

[Xenio]

Hi, I have a question, Did you think Vengefull Pharaoh is a "must have" ?

[Final Fortune]

No, but there isn't much else to do with the SB vs aggro.

[ChemicalBurns]

Manaless Dredge took down the recent Legacy Challenge:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/547329#online

Kind of similar to a Japanese list we saw awhile ago - Spy in the main, Rider and countermagic to bring in from the side, plus the usual removal pacakage (no Pharaoh though). Also three Chancellors in the main.

I've been pondering why this was successful and have come to this:

I actually feel the metagame is really ripe for Manaless to shine - Eldrazi has fallen down in favour and hence our most popular Leyline of the Void deck is less of an issue, and BUG Deathritey decks have started to crop up a bit more which we've always been well-suited against thanks to Chancellor/Wraith/Phantas. The presence of BR Reanimator is still forcing people to gravitate to Faerie Macabre/Surgical though, which is graveyard hate that is very easy for us to beat (though Faerie being un-FoWable is kind of annoying at times).

I would not fault anyone for going full fearless at the moment. At least though, I feel that main deck Force of Will is not where you want to be currently with how the meta has shifted, as Show and Tell is the big combo deck of choice now and we can generally beat it quite easily (Show and Tell in Whirlpool Rider and go to town!). BR Reanimator is still relevant, of course, but countermagic has never been that stellar with their Chancellors and I'd agree that our matchup is a little weak against it (but not unwinnable with good play, of course).

Anyway, my list is looking like the following:

Disruption: (8)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy

Dredge/Discard: (18)
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

'Free' Creatures: (19)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bridge from Below
3 Nether Shadow

Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard: (15)
4 Force of Will
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Contagion
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Unmask
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider

I'm not sure about the board - I'm not that high on Unmask overall as I always just seem to get into awkward spots with it, and may want a third Faerie and third Shoal instead. I'd love to fit in a third Pharaoh but it's hard to justify with it being so mediocre in multiples.

[Elpresidente]

Have an FNM Tournament report, went 4-0 today, 8-3 in matches 3-1 in game 1s

The list I used was
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Whirlpool Rider
3 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
2 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Side Board
1 Unmask
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Force of Will

So yeah things went well for me today.

Round 1 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.
Game 1 he keeps a one lander with vial, gets thalia on turn 3, but I'm able to put enough creatures on board that I don't need to cast anything to win.

In: 2 Vengeful Pharoah, 4 Shoal, 2 Forces
Out: 1 Bridge, 1 Dread Return, 1 Git Probe, 1 Ichorid, 1 Prized Amalgalm, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Chancellor
Basically just cut a bunch of the more casting required cards that get taxed

Game 2 He mulls to 3 and has no mana

Round 2 2-1 vs Jund
Game 1 I'm pretty proud of. I keep a redraw heavy hand with nothing really going on and he slams turn one deathrite. I'm put into an awkward situation immediately as I draw gravetroll, but can't pitch it. 5 or so turns pass where he is also unable to play something due to needing to keep the mana up when I finally draw a street wraith, pitch gravetroll, cycle in response to being eaten and am able to go off at 5 or so life.

In: 2 Contagion, 2 Pharaoh
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Bring in some removal cut some of the slower stuff

Game 2, Leyline on 7, ded instantly
Game 3, Opponent mulls to 5 with deathrite, 3 lands, and a pulse. I have the street wraith and phantasmagorian and he never gets anything going as he gets put down pretty quick

Round 3 2-1 vs Burn
Game 1, have the street wraith dredger combo with opening hand chancellor, and just get there on turn 3

In: 2 Pharaoh, 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether shadow
Needed removal

Game 2, he gets me on turn 3 from 14 with double guide turn 2 and double bolt fireblast after I cycle a wraith
Game 3, Have chancellor again, he throws a rift bold under the bus for it for some reason. He gets a guide bolt, then follows with an eidolon. I build the board pretty slowly using zombie blockers to buy some time. I get put to 3 with his eidolon in play and only manage to have a single narcomoeba with no bridges. Fade the draw step, kill his eidolon with pharaoh after being put to 1 and narrowly was able to burn him out with Flayer of the Hatebound

Round 4 2-1 vs Junk Fit
Game 1 goes poorly. have to take a mull due to no dredger and no redraws. He lands a turn 2 scooze, and is then able to on turn 3 play an explorer and get 4 green sources locking me out.

In: 2 Pharaoh 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
More of the same

Game 2 Opponent on a mull to 5, has turn 2 scooze. I pitch phantasmagorian. He attacks me I pitch a pharaoh which he has to eat leaving him with only one green source. I then become able to dredge using a street wraith to beat the scooze and go off turn 3
Game 3 Opponent mulls to 5 again. Opens on thoughtsieze taking something after I neglect to reveal chancellor in hand. Cabal Therapies next turn but has no other action. Eventually I get to discard and probe him seeing Rhino, Sigarda, and Decay. I just go off this turn and he draws into a deed, but flayer is in the yard getting me lethal.

Played against a ton of fair decks today, so the Pharaohs were super good. Definitely don't need the third. Shambling shells would have been nice, but I don't think they would have made or broken any of those games. Overall was super happy with how the deck performed as it just kind of got there sometimes.

[Final Fortune]

I think with the increase of Surgical Extractions and Deathrite Shamans it makes the argument for Shambling Shell more relevant than before, it's important to either have the second Dredger in your hand or be able to top deck one quickly. If people are SBing in Faerie Macabre to circumvent Chancellor of the Annex vs B/r Reanimator then that is a god send for us, IMO.

Unmask should be good vs Show&Tell fwiw, and in general Storm has been slowing down so I don't think Force of Will is really that necessary in the MD if at all.

[Xenio]

@ChemicalBurns, i think you're right about your feeling about the metagame.

For this japanese deck, I don't like the idea to get spy in the main deck cause i always win by reanimate a whirlpool, but maybe it's for bait the fact that you don"t play FOW (if everyone know manaless).

I may try to do some theoricraft to the shambling shell, because she really seem's to be useless (dredge 3, is that really a dredge ? :p)

Pharaoh is good on 2, but 3 assure us to have it fast.

I play unmask and I start thinking : why play unmask when you can play LED. I see unmask only as a discard card to discard us agasint duress or other enemy discard which could make us loose a turn and wait for turn 2 to use it to discard is late (shaman still on play, cage and RIP too). So you have to use it turn 1 and that make you loose 2 turns.

I think ashen rider is useless. In manaless, the first 7 card are the only card you will have. So if ashen rider it's against show and tell, to get him in hand is pretty poor. And if it's for reanimate him... why do it there is better card.

I like to have 1 progenitus in the side (for painter and miracle), but i think it's nop op and only something i like :)

My list is currently :

the 12 dredger, the 13 creature (narco + icho + prized + flayer), the 8 spell (cabal + dread return), the 8 draw (4 probe + 4 wraith), the 12 usefull (bridge + phantasmagorian + chancellor). This 53 cards are the one everyone use so I will only say the 53 and the other card.

The 53
3 Nether shadow
2 Whirlpool rider
2 Contagion


Side :
2 Vengefull Pharaoh
2 Faerie macabre
4 Force of will
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Lion eye's diamond

[Xenio]

I may try to do some theoricraft to the shambling shell, because she really seem's to be useless (dredge 3, is that really a dredge ? :p)

After some good use of excel :
In the case where you have shambling shell in hand and no other dredger (the probability is around 5%):

A choice is bad when you don't dredge other dredger 4,5 or 6.

Keep the shell is bad for 19% of the case.
Mulligan is bad in 24% of the case.

But this stat don't count the time win by chancellor or the use of prob and street wraith. Neither the enemy hate : shaman, surgical or faerie.

[ChemicalBurns]

I think with the increase of Surgical Extractions and Deathrite Shamans it makes the argument for Shambling Shell more relevant than before, it's important to either have the second Dredger in your hand or be able to top deck one quickly. If people are SBing in Faerie Macabre to circumvent Chancellor of the Annex vs B/r Reanimator then that is a god send for us, IMO.

Unmask should be good vs Show&Tell fwiw, and in general Storm has been slowing down so I don't think Force of Will is really that necessary in the MD if at all.

I agree on Shell - even though he's truly a mediocre Dredger, making sure that with Wraith or Phantas you hit/have that second Dredger to overwhelm the DRS becomes more and more important. I think that's finally how I've started to think about him - less part of the core, and more as a card used to overcome hate like DRS/Faerie etc. in a similar way to Phantas.

I'll agree that Unmask is better vs. Show and Tell (Force is the only thing we can do, other than Shoal pitch Amalgam, for blue versions), but it always has the one-turn delay since we can only use it on our second turn which is often too late. Compared to countermagic, where we can discard to hand size on our first turn, and then counter their threatening play (if need be) on their second turn. I won't doubt that Unmask is a good card tho, but I always find it awkward in certain situations because of it often leading to us time walking ourselves and our opponent then having time to draw out of the disruption or just be too slow when we let ourselves discard to hand size first. Or am I just using it wrong? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this FF, since I know you're quite the backer of Unmask's strength.


Have an FNM Tournament report, went 4-0 today, 8-3 in matches 3-1 in game 1s

The list I used was
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Whirlpool Rider
3 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
2 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

Side Board
1 Unmask
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Force of Will

So yeah things went well for me today.

Round 1 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.
Game 1 he keeps a one lander with vial, gets thalia on turn 3, but I'm able to put enough creatures on board that I don't need to cast anything to win.

In: 2 Vengeful Pharoah, 4 Shoal, 2 Forces
Out: 1 Bridge, 1 Dread Return, 1 Git Probe, 1 Ichorid, 1 Prized Amalgalm, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, 1 Chancellor
Basically just cut a bunch of the more casting required cards that get taxed

Game 2 He mulls to 3 and has no mana

Round 2 2-1 vs Jund
Game 1 I'm pretty proud of. I keep a redraw heavy hand with nothing really going on and he slams turn one deathrite. I'm put into an awkward situation immediately as I draw gravetroll, but can't pitch it. 5 or so turns pass where he is also unable to play something due to needing to keep the mana up when I finally draw a street wraith, pitch gravetroll, cycle in response to being eaten and am able to go off at 5 or so life.

In: 2 Contagion, 2 Pharaoh
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Bring in some removal cut some of the slower stuff

Game 2, Leyline on 7, ded instantly
Game 3, Opponent mulls to 5 with deathrite, 3 lands, and a pulse. I have the street wraith and phantasmagorian and he never gets anything going as he gets put down pretty quick

Round 3 2-1 vs Burn
Game 1, have the street wraith dredger combo with opening hand chancellor, and just get there on turn 3

In: 2 Pharaoh, 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether shadow
Needed removal

Game 2, he gets me on turn 3 from 14 with double guide turn 2 and double bolt fireblast after I cycle a wraith
Game 3, Have chancellor again, he throws a rift bold under the bus for it for some reason. He gets a guide bolt, then follows with an eidolon. I build the board pretty slowly using zombie blockers to buy some time. I get put to 3 with his eidolon in play and only manage to have a single narcomoeba with no bridges. Fade the draw step, kill his eidolon with pharaoh after being put to 1 and narrowly was able to burn him out with Flayer of the Hatebound

Round 4 2-1 vs Junk Fit
Game 1 goes poorly. have to take a mull due to no dredger and no redraws. He lands a turn 2 scooze, and is then able to on turn 3 play an explorer and get 4 green sources locking me out.

In: 2 Pharaoh 2 Contagion
Out: 2 Force, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
More of the same

Game 2 Opponent on a mull to 5, has turn 2 scooze. I pitch phantasmagorian. He attacks me I pitch a pharaoh which he has to eat leaving him with only one green source. I then become able to dredge using a street wraith to beat the scooze and go off turn 3
Game 3 Opponent mulls to 5 again. Opens on thoughtsieze taking something after I neglect to reveal chancellor in hand. Cabal Therapies next turn but has no other action. Eventually I get to discard and probe him seeing Rhino, Sigarda, and Decay. I just go off this turn and he draws into a deed, but flayer is in the yard getting me lethal.

Played against a ton of fair decks today, so the Pharaohs were super good. Definitely don't need the third. Shambling shells would have been nice, but I don't think they would have made or broken any of those games. Overall was super happy with how the deck performed as it just kind of got there sometimes.

Great job! :)

Lots of fair DRS decks to gobble up there, also nice to see the win over Death & Taxes which I also had a similar experience to - just got locked out by Thalia, but kept the Zombie beats going. I actually cut all my Chancellors in the D&T matchup, due to most of the relevant plays being on turn two, though Vial can screw this up (but also just be generally too slow, as you can shred their hand before it ticks up to a relevant number). Be aware when you bring in Pharaoh you may want to trim some Bridges because of their dissynergy unless, like against D&T, you really need to grind without casting a spell. I'd also avoid trimming Ichorids in the D&T MU because having a self-sacrificing creature is really valuable there.

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result!

[Elpresidente]

Unfortunately now that I've won with the deck, I feel like I should switch of a bit due to some people being really committed to not losing to this again, mostly by packing leylines. I feel like I might try to throw people next week by switching to miracles, which is something I haven't played yet

[Echelon]

Unfortunately now that I've won with the deck, I feel like I should switch of a bit due to some people being really committed to not losing to this again, mostly by packing leylines. I feel like I might try to throw people next week by switching to miracles, which is something I haven't played yet

Yep. Just bide your time.

[Philip]

Really enjoy follow this thread. Thanks for all the info. Took manaless to a 3rd place finish at a 40~ person 1k today. The event was at The Complex in Scarborough, ME 1/28/2017.
I was on this almost this list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/547329#online
Main
- 1 Shell
+1 Chancellor
Side
- 1 Progenitus
- 1 Ashen Rider
+ 2 Vengeful Pharoah

I was 5-1 in the swiss.

Round 1
Loss to 12 Post (1-2)
Crop Rotation / Bog is rough. I get game off a combo kill turn 3. Tabernacle also rough. Pleasure to see some Candelabras in action.

Round 2
Win against Death and Taxes (2-1)
Zombie swarm through Sanctum Prelate on 4 gets game 1. Containment Priest Thaila Jitte take game 2. I get 2 quick Amalgams game 3 and Pharaoh does some work preventing Thalia and Prelate from attacking.

Round 3
Win against Sneak and Show (2-0)
Chancellor slows him down both games. Game 1 he has Emrakul off Show and Tell, but I hit Narco for Spy kill on my turn. Game 2 he keeps a hand with surgical for my bridges, but can't find anything to Show and Tell in time.

Round 4
Win against Burn (2-1)
Super close matchup. Game 1 combo kill after buying myself time by hitting 2 Fireblast with a blind Therapy. Game 2 I get burned out off 3 Goblin Guide start. Game 3 I combo kill at 1 life with a Rift Bolt on suspend. Very little interaction from burn.

Round 5
Win against BUG Control (2-1)
Game 1 he has Deathrite, but seems unclear on some of the interactions. I have Phantasm + Street Wraith to deal with Deathrite and get the combo kill. Game 2 I have Thug + Street Wraith, but I whiff one the dredge 4 and he gets Deathrite down with Gofy for pressure. Game 3 I have Phantasmagorian to get around Deathrite, win with Ichorid. I had a strong feeling that his unfamiliarity with the matchup gave me some percentage points here.

Round 6
Win against BUG Control (2-1)
Game 1 Chancellor slows down Deathrite, I get too much power on board. Game 2 I fight through surgical on Grave-Troll only to scoop to Grafdigger's Cage. Game 3 He mulligans to 4 and finds a Surgical for Grave-Troll again, but I get Ichorid engine going.

Top 8 (1st seed)
Quarters I beat the same burn player in a similar match (2-1). Too bad he didn't get there because I lose in the Semis to Lands with Crop Rotation / Bog into quick 20/20s and burn probably would have loved that matchup. Ended up 3rd overall.

I ran the deck because there was lots of BUG delver/control going around and I think the matchup is favorable. I didn't board much at at all, but the sideboard is more for the unfair decks and Sneak and Show was the only one I played.
Thanks for reading my notes!

[GoldenCid]

Have an FNM Tournament report, went 4-0 today, 8-3 in matches 3-1 in game 1s



Congrats! Good call!

I have a couple of questions for your.

Which were the creatures that pharaoth ate most?

Did just 1 unmask worth?


Unfortunately now that I've won with the deck, I feel like I should switch of a bit due to some people being really committed to not losing to this again, mostly by packing leylines. I feel like I might try to throw people next week by switching to miracles, which is something I haven't played yet

Did you consider land version?

[Zifbox]

With the recent banning of Grave-Troll from Modern, this seemed like a great time to pick up Manaless Dredge on the cheap on MtGO. I've got all the pieces (except FoW; gonna try it out before pulling the trigger on those), but I have some questions.

1) I notice that the 5-0 lists on mtggoldfish.com all run Balustrade Spy with 2 Whirlpool Riders in the side, whereas most of the lists I see here run no spies and the 2 riders main. Am I correct in thinking that the less-all-in nature Whirlpool Rider has proved worthwhile? Not to mention being a 2CMC to pitch to Disrupting Shoal. Spy does seem more powerful on paper in game 1, however.... Are sideboard slots a consideration here too?

2) Running Progenitus (or other creature with the same shuffle-in replacement effect) obviously keeps you from milling out from over-dredging or a Dread Return'd spy, but it only works reliably for 1 turn. Phantasmagorian might also buy another turn or two with it, depending on how many cards are in your hand. Is that enough to make it worth it? How often does the deck fail to win after a full-mill?

3) Another difference I notice between Goldfish 5-0 lists and the ones here is Contagion vs Sickening Shoal. The argument that occasionally killing two X/1's is better is compelling, but are there any X/3's or X/4's we actually care about that Shoal could hit?

4) Without diving too far down the rabbit hole, what are the pros and cons of manaless vs traditional dredge in the current meta?

[Final Fortune]

Traditional Dredge folds like a cheap tent to Chalice Aggro and is bothered more by Surgical Extraction. The only reason people play Whirlpool Rider is because of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal, otherwise any black target is strictly better.

[mistercakes]

The main cons for manaless is that it loses more to hard graveyard hate and is a little bit slower. Also on modo there are players who will know you're on manaless and put you on the play first.

[Xenio]

Hi Zifbox and welcome in the wonderfull world of manaless =)


1) I notice that the 5-0 lists on mtggoldfish.com all run Balustrade Spy with 2 Whirlpool Riders in the side, whereas most of the lists I see here run no spies and the 2 riders main. Am I correct in thinking that the less-all-in nature Whirlpool Rider has proved worthwhile? Not to mention being a 2CMC to pitch to Disrupting Shoal. Spy does seem more powerful on paper in game 1, however.... Are sideboard slots a consideration here too?

To resume in a simple way : Spy list MD is better to go 4-0 but Wirlpool main is better to go 8-0. In small tournament, you don't really need a great sideboards cause you can expect your enemy to have bad hate in his side.
But Spy and no Force in MD (so with 2 rider and 4 FOW in side) hide the FOW to surprise your enemy in the game 2, but that eat a lot of slot in the side.


2) Running Progenitus (or other creature with the same shuffle-in replacement effect) obviously keeps you from milling out from over-dredging or a Dread Return'd spy, but it only works reliably for 1 turn. Phantasmagorian might also buy another turn or two with it, depending on how many cards are in your hand. Is that enough to make it worth it? How often does the deck fail to win after a full-mill?

If you loose a game by over dredging or over draw with a rider... stop play manaless you're just bad with it^^ It's really hard to loose this way because you can count the card in your library at any time (and you're not playing with a River Kelpi list).
The deck never fail to win afer a full-mill or it's just you who fail.
Progenitus is side with Balustrad spy against a show and tell or a reanimator (for exemple your opponent play show and tell, he drops Emrakul, you drop Balustard spy, and all your library come into your graveyard so progenitus save you at you draw in your turn - I already did this in a tournament).
Moreover, Progenitus is good against Miracle to simply shuffle your library against the stack of creature in the bottom due to some Terminus.


3) Another difference I notice between Goldfish 5-0 lists and the ones here is Contagion vs Sickening Shoal. The argument that occasionally killing two X/1's is better is compelling, but are there any X/3's or X/4's we actually care about that Shoal could hit?

Contagion is better than Shoal. I don't see reason why play Sickening Shoal exept that Contagion could be hard to find.


4) Without diving too far down the rabbit hole, what are the pros and cons of manaless vs traditional dredge in the current meta?

Pros :
- Manaless don't care about counter, the deck can win without play single spell and dredge is weak against counter (if your opponent have daze + FOW in hand you nearly have lost
- Manaless is more reliable in a 7-cards-hand
- Manaless is strong against low graveyard hate (surgical, deathrite shaman, Faerie macabre...) with Phantasmagorian, Chancellor of the Annexe and Street wraith and often can win even with a surgical or 2 and dredge is really weak against them.
- Manaless is cheaper

Cons:
- Manaless can't really muligan but don't really need it
- Manaless is week (expect with Force) against hard graveyard hate (Cage, RIP, Leyline) and the game is lost turn 1-2
- Manaless is easy to slow down (with thalia and some counter)
- Manaless is not like by everyone cause have few interaction

In a shorter way, Dredge is have few way to counter the classic play (shaman + counter + surgical in all side) when manaless have a great response to this, so in this metagame i find manaless really stronger than dredge and more reliable.
Dredge is useless if you loose game 1 agasint a T1 shaman or counter, your opponent don't have hate and you even loose. And moreover, dredge add some Force of will and Prized Amalgame in the list, they are good as cards but don't really fill in the list.

[Zifbox]

Thanks for the responses, folks! I jammed a bunch of matches today, and I almost immediately got to Shoal a RIP and then Force another the following game - blue sideboard is great.

Gotta say, I'm sick and tired of seeing turn one DRS (though I shouldn't complain, since I play BUG in paper), so I went up to 3x Contagion in the side. Speaking of sideboard cards, how aggressively do you all mulligan for them? I found myself very hard-pressed to mulligan any 7-card hand with a dredger.

Lastly, are we just completely cold to Leyline of the Void? It felt real bad to crush a weird burn deck game one, only to auto-lose the next two after they mulliganed aggressively for their Leyline.

[Echelon]

2) Running Progenitus (or other creature with the same shuffle-in replacement effect) obviously keeps you from milling out from over-dredging or a Dread Return'd spy, but it only works reliably for 1 turn. Phantasmagorian might also buy another turn or two with it, depending on how many cards are in your hand. Is that enough to make it worth it? How often does the deck fail to win after a full-mill?

Discarding to hand size is a thing, you know. And then there's Cabal Therapy and Phantasmagorian.

Typically, the deck doesn't lose after milling yourself completely. I just like that Progenitus lets you kill your opponent w/ resolving just a single DR, allowing you to use the others as counter fodder. After you've milled yourself, you get to swing w/ all your Ichorids, Nether Shadows and Prized Amalgams (and whatever else you have on the field) turn after turn. Just 1 swing puts you well over 20 damage.

@Leylines: That's the risk you take with this deck.

[JackaBo]

I ran my rather stock blue list with FOWs in SB last "legacy wednesday". Made a mediocre 2-2. But that felt ok as I'm learning the deck. I won all G1 as expected but lost to

Show and tell who were too fast G2 and G3

And Maverick who won G2 with RIP and G3 with doubble shaman and active jitte to deny me bridges (after FOWing RIP)

Wins were against

MUD 2-0 (Hello chalice into trinisphere, who cares here's a street wraith) and

TES 2-0 where i did get some lucky dredges (therapy plus shadow plus bridge) against.

I felt unsure about the SB plan though. I want to bring in FOW like every game but I dont want to dilute my gameplan too much.

My goto was: shambling shell, shadow, and either DR + flayer (vs DRS-decks) or wraith + phantasmagorian (vs non DRS-decks). Any other suggestions which cards to cut?

Deck for reference:
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/273801

[igri_is_a_bk]

Hey guys, I haven't really played the deck since 2014, but I am again online for good practice. I don't like the FoW version. I was off it, then on, and now back off in paper, so I don't plan on taking to it online. Anyways, outside of blue what's my best plan for fighting storm nowadays? I see it has a large online presence. Unmask and/or Chancellor mb? Leyline of Sanctity or Chalice sb?

[Elpresidente]

Hey guys, I haven't really played the deck since 2014, but I am again online for good practice. I don't like the FoW version. I was off it, then on, and now back off in paper, so I don't plan on taking to it online. Anyways, outside of blue what's my best plan for fighting storm nowadays? I see it has a large online presence. Unmask and/or Chancellor mb? Leyline of Sanctity or Chalice sb?

Sideboard Mindbreak traps and just hoping you get a couple turns to cast some cabal therapies. Sanctity is actively bad, chalice on 0 is only kind of annoying most of the time, as they can go off eventually anyways and has the same issue of heavily slowing down our gameplan, unmash is fine, chancellor is fine as well as it slows them down by a whole turn usually.

[Xenio]

Gotta say, I'm sick and tired of seeing turn one DRS (though I shouldn't complain, since I play BUG in paper), so I went up to 3x Contagion in the side. Speaking of sideboard cards, how aggressively do you all mulligan for them? I found myself very hard-pressed to mulligan any 7-card hand with a dredger.

Against a shaman wih a good hand, i think the best plan is to wait some turn to draw a phantasmagorian or a Street wraith and hope for an explosif turn. If the hand is too slow you can also mulligan, but only once.


Lastly, are we just completely cold to Leyline of the Void? It felt real bad to crush a weird burn deck game one, only to auto-lose the next two after they mulliganed aggressively for their Leyline.
Don't try to figth against Leyline, it's just impossible.


Anyways, outside of blue what's my best plan for fighting storm nowadays?
Against Ad nauseam the best card is FOW and Shoal, with this card you hope he don't have discard.
You can play Unmask to kill him a good card if he don't discard you yet and you have a dredger in graveyard. I like all in plan so against Ad Nauseam i have 3 LED in side, but it's only because i have 3 free slot.

[dte]

Against a shaman wih a good hand, i think the best plan is to wait some turn to draw a phantasmagorian or a Street wraith and hope for an explosif turn. If the hand is too slow you can also mulligan, but only

Dont hesitate to just draw and play your dredger. To avoid getting blown out by street wraith, he may not activate drs on it to wait for narco/icho.

[Zifbox]

Dont hesitate to just draw and play your dredger. To avoid getting blown out by street wraith, he may not activate drs on it to wait for narco/icho.
Some opponents have done that, while others go straight for the dredger. Guess it depends on what level your opponent is thinking on.

[JackaBo]

I went 4-0 last night.
2-1 versus food chain
2-0 versus goblins
2-1 versus death n taxes (with 5-6 relevant sideboard cards)
2-0 versus U/W stoneblade

Won every G1 and boarded into fow every G2

Got to fow containment priest and Rest in peace which won me two games.

I'm pretty sure Pharao got to go. I'm considering black or blue shoal (or both)



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[ChemicalBurns]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/579254#online

Interesting list 5-0ed recently. Kelpie, Arbors, Salvage, Bloodghasts and more. Oh my.

[GoldenCid]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/579254#online

Interesting list 5-0ed recently. Kelpie, Arbors, Salvage, Bloodghasts and more. Oh my.

This is the only way for dealing with cage o leyline. Im not sure if its reliable but that's the way. I remember taht first lists also run reverent silence

[Echelon]

Interesting list 5-0ed recently. Kelpie, Arbors, Salvage, Bloodghasts and more. Oh my.

Very few recurring creatures though. And having to rely on 6 green sources and a 3-off to answer to a resolved Cage/Leyline sounds incredibly iffy. And this is ignoring whatever your opponent might do.

I suspect that list was just a right thing on the right place at the right moment type of deal.

[Snowfire]

I suspect that list was just a right thing on the right place at the right moment type of deal.

Yeah I think any other list could have done it as well.

[4eshir]

Hi all.
There is a big tournament where I want to go with this deck.
How do you think that you can change in main?

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Prized Amalgam
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgeri Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
2 Balustrade Spy
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona
1 Flame Kin-Zealot

[Echelon]

-1 Flayer, -1 Iona and +1 Balustrade Spy to begin with. If you want to go for a Spy-list you might be best of with mine (it's on page 30).

Consider the opportunity cost of Iona for a second. She says "You win in a couple of turns" vs. a number of decks, where Dread Returning Balustrade Spy says "You win this turn", without fail.

I get the allure, but "I win this turn" > "I win in a couple of turns".

[WarpWorld]

Took manaless to the t4 of a 26 man over the weekend. This was the list.

Creatures (45)
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sorcery (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dread Return

Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Noxious Revival
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Whirlpool Rider
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Serra Avatar

Matchups were
R1. B/G Depths (win 2-0)
Won the Roll. Game 1 was weird because we both punted one after the other. I had to work for it and he had to choose between my board state and his Glacial Chasm going to 2 counters at 4 life. He choose board state and couldn't deal.
Game 2 On the draw. I had hand of gas (gorian, 2x Wraith, multiple dredgers). He went to 6 and made the comment that he didn't realize how fast this deck was.
R2. BUG delver (win 2-1)
Won the Roll. Game 1 on the draw. Got ahead of an early deathrite and combo kill him.
Game 2 on the play. Turn 0 chancellor. Dredged* flayer in the first dredge and it got eaten by a shaman so I was on the race plan. He was at 2 when I died.
Game 3 on the draw. Once again I get ahead of deathrite and the combo is fast enough.
R3. D&T (loss 0-2)
Won the Roll. Game 1 on the draw. Turn 2 Thalia does a lot of work. I get to aggressive and lose my bridges when I didn't have too. This made it hard and I died with him at 6 life.
Game 2 on the play. Force a cage early and go to work. Once again Thalia shows up this time the turn after I dread retuned a Whirlpool Rider with 7 or 8 cards in hand I went to one card in library which was the bridge I needed to get there. Sometimes it happens.
R4. Shardless BUG (win 2-1)
Lost the Roll. Game 1 on the draw. Combo gets there fast.
Game 2 on the draw. Surgical plus deathrite and some mediocre dedges and he beats me down with a goyf.
Game 3 on the draw. Got to a fast combo before deathrite could stop me.
R5. ID
3-1-1 for 4th after Swiss
T8. Miracles (win 2-0)
I was the higher seed so I choose draw for game 1 where he doesn't really do anything while I beat down.
Game 2 on the play. He had turn 2 surgical snap surgical and I didn't get anything going after that.
Game 3 back on the draw. This 1 was a grind he decided to STP a few Ichorids but no other interaction with me. He ended up casting an entreat for 3 to try and stabilize the board but I was to far ahead. I returned a flayer and passed with 2 or 3 Prized Amalgam triggers and him at 6.
T4. Food Chain (loss 0-2)
Both games were the same story 2 deathrite shamans is to much to handle also Walking Balista is a house as it kills bridges and dudes.

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result! Looking forward to the report.

[WarpWorld]

Edited the above post with match ups. 4 Noxious Revival was to much and I will most likely go back to playing a few contagions to deal with the shaman. I was expecting a lot of surgical and was right. I only got to blank it once on the day. I did get to blank a few deathrite activations but I would have rather dealt with the deathrite. Deck felt good and 3 Dread Return felt correct as I didn't need more than 3 in any given game to combo my opponent out.

[l33twash0r]

Edited the above post with match ups. 4 Noxious Revival was to much and I will most likely go back to playing a few contagions to deal with the shaman. I was expecting a lot of surgical and was right. I only got to blank it once on the day. I did get to blank a few deathrite activations but I would have rather dealt with the deathrite. Deck felt good and 3 Dread Return felt correct as I didn't need more than 3 in any given game to combo my opponent out.

Why Serra Avatar and not Progenitus?

[Final Fortune]

Noxious Revival isn't worth the space, if Surgical Extraction is causing the deck serioius problems then it's a result of cutting Shambling Shell and not having enough redundancy to play thru' it - just SBing 2 more Shambling Shells might be strictly better vs Surgical Extraction.

The blue SB DR targets seem like a waste of space, you can just MD them and give yourself enough space to actually deal with stuff like Reanimator or Storm.

[WarpWorld]

Serra Avatar vs. Progenitus* was just what I had on hand. I am not totally sold even that using the slot is correct. The only matchup I want it for is show n tell. Which isn't well represented in my meta. It turned out to be mostly miracles, BUG decks and d&t which I am fine with.

@Final Fortune. 4 was to many for sure. Going forward I am thinking maybe 2. I like having different options to fight hate. Surgical and deathrite are fine when they play one. The 2nd and 3rd are normally what do the most damage and it also depends on the targets. Against my miracles opponent he hit thug and troll leaving me with 6 dredgers left. I could see the argument more more dredgers or a greater density against surgical decks. The blue targets worked for me in the games where I want FOW.

[Daize]

Hi guys, I haven't been around for a while. Not a lot of innovative things seem to be going on (no offense! Rather says something about the card quality and how rigid the deck is), though I was wondering: how good does 4 Prized Amalgam
perform? I haven't played with them in the deck, but I feel it's a bit of a slow "get-to-winning-more" card. Would love to hear experiences.

[mistercakes]

you gotta read up on the thread.

[Daize]

I did, thanks. I don't get clear why it'd be better than nether shadow (it only starts coming back after you've found enablers (like nether shadow)), nor why it'd be a lot better than bridge. Given it's easier to remove bridge, bridges can give more manpower and give you fuel during your combo DR return, instead of at the end of the turn. Or am I missing something?

[mistercakes]

It's not run in leiu of nether shadow. Both are run. Play some games with it, you'll be impressed.

Also as a last mention, it helps your blue count for sb cards.

[Final Fortune]

The card is insane, you just cut crap to add it and you're 7% more business and a turn faster.

[ChemicalBurns]

Amalgam is the utter nuts. On your "fast" draws, often involving cycling Street Wraiths at the second main phase of your opponent's turn, Amalgam will come down accompanying any Narcomoebas you hit, essentially accelerating you one more creature for a Dread Return. When you're on the slow beatdown plan, Amalgam is also insane, dodging mid-combat Miracled Terminus and sticking around with his huge body against other fair matchups. If you've ever Dread Returned sacrificing Amalgams, you'll also know that it basically makes the Dread Return a freebie, since all the Amalgams re-trigger off the resurrected creature. Amalgam is also highly-synergistic with Flayer of the Hatebound. You no longer even need multiple Dread Returns to lethal your opponent - sometimes DR for Flayer, Therapy to Undying flayer and then EoT Bolt the opponent three times is enough to kill them.

All this, and we also have a sturdy blue count of 18-22 for Force of Will against combo post-board with Amalgam in the mix.

Seriously, run four. Daize, I think you're underestimating how much of Manaless has gotten a revolution since Shadows Over Innistrad. Amalgam has revolutionised the deck, giving it a incredibly potent new tool. It's what made me come back to the deck and respect its power.

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

After a year playing other decks, I've returned to Manaless Dredge in the last week, playing it in my LGS (2-2) and in the Catalan Legacy League this Saturday (60 players, I finished 19th, 3 wins 1 draw 2 losses). This time I'm playing with the blue SB, here's the list:

4 chancellor
4 therapy

4 ggt
4 stimp
4 thug
2 Shell

4 narco
4 prized
4 shadow
4 ichorid

2 rider
1 flayer
3 dreturn

4 probe
4 wraith
4 phantas
4 bridge

sb:

4 fow
2 disrupting
2 pharaoh
3 contagion
4 faerie

Here are some reflections (after 10 matchs played, so take it with a grain of salt):

* I hadn't played with Prized Amalgam yet, they were not released yet last time I played the deck. They are absolutely awesome, as ChemicalBurns say in the above post. Run four. Always.
* I've lost some games due to what it seemed absurd variance at first glance. Then I realized that I've been failing to chain dredgers much more than when I played with 16 dredgers. I'm missing the 3rd and 4th Shambling Shell much more that I expected.
* I hated Whirlpool Rider A LOT. I've not Dread Returned for them not a single time in twenty-some matches. 2 Riders + 3 DRs seems not to be enough to assure having them both in the GY to launch the combo. Plus, a lot of times I've found myself with only one or two cards in hand when I could DR Rider, so I would dredge just 1-2 cards, which I felt were not nearly enough.
* Related to last point: I feel much more reliable just to DR directly Flayer and kill the opponent with CIP Amalgam/Ichorid/Shadow triggers. DR Flayer and then DR Grave-Troll, without Riders, has been enough for me the (few) times I tried to combo.
* The Pharaohs has been awesome too, stopping the opponent to attack during several turns.
* The blue plan has not really worked for me, but I feel that 4 FoWs and 4 Shoal may improve it. I'll try it next tournaments.

All of this sumarize into:
* Next games I'll remove the Riders and re-sleeve 3rd and 4th Shambling Shells.
* I'll play 4 FoWs and 4 Shoals side, and I'll just play 2 Faerie Macabre instead of 4 (I think Reanimator is so difficult that I prefer not to spend too much sideboard space to try to win it).

Anyway, I have a question for you guys: How do you sideboard to make room for 4 FoWs, 4 Shoals and the rest of sideboard? I'm siding out the combo pieces (3 DR + Flayer) and 1 of each Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Shell, but I'm not sold on it. Yesterday it came to me that, if I'm siding in FoWs+Shoals, I could side out Chancellors (they play a similar role IMO), but I haven't tried it yet.

Sorry for my poor English and thanks for reading!

[Darklingske]

How do you sideboard to make room for 4 FoWs, 4 Shoals and the rest of sideboard? I'm siding out the combo pieces (3 DR + Flayer) and 1 of each Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Shell, but I'm not sold on it. Yesterday it came to me that, if I'm siding in FoWs+Shoals, I could side out Chancellors (they play a similar role IMO), but I haven't tried it yet.

This is what I do when I side in the blue package: +4 FoW, +4 Shoal, -3 DR, -1 Flayer, -4 Chancellor. I keep the Riders as they are good fodder for FoW and ideal for pitching to Shoal to hit Priest or RiP. You could keep the Chancellors and cut a single Icho, shell, Phanta & Shadow if you expect a lot of BUG to hit their T1 DRS.

[gRR!!]

This is what I do when I side in the blue package: +4 FoW, +4 Shoal, -3 DR, -1 Flayer, -4 Chancellor. I keep the Riders as they are good fodder for FoW and ideal for pitching to Shoal to hit Priest or RiP. You could keep the Chancellors and cut a single Icho, shell, Phanta & Shadow if you expect a lot of BUG to hit their T1 DRS.

That makes a lot of sense. Anyway, I plan to cut Riders, but I'll play the full playset of Shoals, so the total number of blue cards (and its mana costs) will remain the same. I'll let you know how it works!

[Scott]

[premature handrubbing b/c who knows how the meta will shake out and how much grave hate there'll be] Yes, yes, move away from your :w: decks and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest after the ban list update, excellent, excellent. Your Deathrite Shamans will keep you safe. [/handrubbing]


You could keep the Chancellors and cut a single Icho, shell, Phanta & Shadow if you expect a lot of BUG to hit their T1 DRS.

Isn't a Phantasmagorian dumping multiple dredgers into your yard one of the best defenses against DRS, along with Street Wraith?

[drinkard]

Hi all,

I just got a 5-0 (10-0 in games) using Manaless Dredge, and so I wanted to chime in with the list.

First of all, I went super budget. Sorry Legacy forum. The thing I found out though is that I want to capitalize on Contagion and Sickening Shoal instead of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal. I also thought Faerie Macabre and Street Wraith were just fine against the typical graveyard hate card I saw: Surgical Extraction.

My matches were
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Leovold Sultai
2-0 neo Miracles
2-0 neo Miracles
2-0 Bant

These all seemed to be the favored matchups. I know I didn't play against combo, and that combo is very popular at the moment.

On a blind Cabal Therapy vs. ANT, what do you name?

I'm glad to be stepping into Legacy. I have been eagerly awaiting the banning of Top!

[ntropy]

Hi all,

I just got a 5-0 (10-0 in games) using Manaless Dredge, and so I wanted to chime in with the list.

First of all, I went super budget. Sorry Legacy forum. The thing I found out though is that I want to capitalize on Contagion and Sickening Shoal instead of Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal. I also thought Faerie Macabre and Street Wraith were just fine against the typical graveyard hate card I saw: Surgical Extraction.

On a blind Cabal Therapy vs. ANT, what do you name?

I'm glad to be stepping into Legacy. I have been eagerly awaiting the banning of Top!

Awesome finish!

I'm also on the non-blue version. I think the rise of Surgical Extraction is great for us, since we can beat it.

Against ANT, you can make them discard their Infernal Tutors - anything else will just be recast with Past in Flames. Faerie Macabres can help exile win-cons/tutors while they are comboing as well. And Mindbreak Trap.

[ntropy]

I'm pretty sold on the Blue sideboard being the best option, but I don't actually own Force of Wills so I like to muck around with other stuff.

I've done this before, and it's terrible, but I feel it coming on again. I always want there to be some way of sideboarding into something that can function through/despite/around a Rest in Peace. I want to be able to bring in some lands and play a motley crew of beaters until I draw a nature's claim/reverent silence. The last time I tried was before Prized Amalgam was printed, so things have changed slightly.

If I run a build that uses Dryad Arbor main to accelerate into Dread Return, I can have 4 lands already in the deck. I could perhaps squeeze a Dakmor Salvage or 2 in as well.

No Spy, of course, and no need for Blue stuff, so I can be reanimating either Griselbrand or Chancellor of the Annex in addition to GGT and the combo. I have also considered a grindy version that doesn't have targets beyond the GGTs and Flayer.

SB:
4 Deathrite Shaman - Exile to Ichorid, pitch to Unmask, feed Grave Troll, produce mana, add to the Bad Man Plan.
4 Nature's Claim - Get off the Bad Man Plan and back to Dredging
2 Underground Sea - Need blue to cast Narcos and Amalgams (and Riders/Drakes?)
2 Tropical Island - Same, or these could be fetches? or just 4 Mana Confluence? Urborg to make Street Wraith unblockable?
3 Dakmor Salvage - Easier to board in more dredgers, can be retrieved after early dredging to sandbag for later.

I'm certain this is awful, I just can't get the idea out of my head. I'm going to test it a bit (I'll post a list) Maybe that will squash the idea :)

[Final Fortune]

[premature handrubbing b/c who knows how the meta will shake out and how much grave hate there'll be] Yes, yes, move away from your :w: decks and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest after the ban list update, excellent, excellent. Your Deathrite Shamans will keep you safe. [/handrubbing]



Isn't a Phantasmagorian dumping multiple dredgers into your yard one of the best defenses against DRS, along with Street Wraith?

On the flip side tho' I think the absence of Miracles is going to increase the number of Deathrite Shamans in the meta and give Storm a chance, so we might need to take extra precautions against Elves and faster decks now.

[Echelon]

On the flip side tho' I think the absence of Miracles is going to increase the number of Deathrite Shamans in the meta and give Storm a chance, so we might need to take extra precautions against Elves and faster decks now.

DRS isn't that much of a problem, but fast combo decks are.

[ChemicalBurns]

Lots of things to consider, but I think we are in really good shape. As long as we can fight through Surgical we should be okay, since the deck can usually ignore other things like DRS etc. I think the rise of combo is a little of an issue for us, and moving to eight blue card sideboard is important.


Hey there folks,

After a year playing other decks, I've returned to Manaless Dredge in the last week, playing it in my LGS (2-2) and in the Catalan Legacy League this Saturday (60 players, I finished 19th, 3 wins 1 draw 2 losses). This time I'm playing with the blue SB, here's the list:

4 chancellor
4 therapy

4 ggt
4 stimp
4 thug
2 Shell

4 narco
4 prized
4 shadow
4 ichorid

2 rider
1 flayer
3 dreturn

4 probe
4 wraith
4 phantas
4 bridge

sb:

4 fow
2 disrupting
2 pharaoh
3 contagion
4 faerie

Here are some reflections (after 10 matchs played, so take it with a grain of salt):

* I hadn't played with Prized Amalgam yet, they were not released yet last time I played the deck. They are absolutely awesome, as ChemicalBurns say in the above post. Run four. Always.
* I've lost some games due to what it seemed absurd variance at first glance. Then I realized that I've been failing to chain dredgers much more than when I played with 16 dredgers. I'm missing the 3rd and 4th Shambling Shell much more that I expected.
* I hated Whirlpool Rider A LOT. I've not Dread Returned for them not a single time in twenty-some matches. 2 Riders + 3 DRs seems not to be enough to assure having them both in the GY to launch the combo. Plus, a lot of times I've found myself with only one or two cards in hand when I could DR Rider, so I would dredge just 1-2 cards, which I felt were not nearly enough.
* Related to last point: I feel much more reliable just to DR directly Flayer and kill the opponent with CIP Amalgam/Ichorid/Shadow triggers. DR Flayer and then DR Grave-Troll, without Riders, has been enough for me the (few) times I tried to combo.
* The Pharaohs has been awesome too, stopping the opponent to attack during several turns.
* The blue plan has not really worked for me, but I feel that 4 FoWs and 4 Shoal may improve it. I'll try it next tournaments.

All of this sumarize into:
* Next games I'll remove the Riders and re-sleeve 3rd and 4th Shambling Shells.
* I'll play 4 FoWs and 4 Shoals side, and I'll just play 2 Faerie Macabre instead of 4 (I think Reanimator is so difficult that I prefer not to spend too much sideboard space to try to win it).

Anyway, I have a question for you guys: How do you sideboard to make room for 4 FoWs, 4 Shoals and the rest of sideboard? I'm siding out the combo pieces (3 DR + Flayer) and 1 of each Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow, Ichorid and Shell, but I'm not sold on it. Yesterday it came to me that, if I'm siding in FoWs+Shoals, I could side out Chancellors (they play a similar role IMO), but I haven't tried it yet.

Sorry for my poor English and thanks for reading!

Generally when boarding in blue sideboard vs. combo (which is where they truly shine), I trim a DR, cut Flayer, cut all/most Shadows, trim an Ickie, trim Bridge, trim Phantas and trim Shell. You want to try and trim your slow creatures and just be a very good beatdown/disruption deck clocking the opponent continuously, shredding their hand and then holding countermagic. I find DR Chancellor is usually more than enough against most unfair decks, though there is arguments otherwise based on matchup (eg., vs Turbo Depths, vs. Lands, you need to kill on the spot).

Interesting that Rider was so medium; I always find him fine just to combo when needed. Just understand your role in the matchup, know if you need to combo fast and hold enough cards in hand - otherwise you can actually just sit back and rely on the beatdown. I also find you can keep chaining Riders (via Therapy > DR rider again) if you need to dig deeper into your deck for the kill.

Other matchups where I board in FoW (eg. D&T) get a little trickier in terms of what to shave.

[bequemo]

Where can i find a good sideboard guide for manaless dredge?
meaning:
what and how mush do i board out etc.
against the common match ups.

do i cut dredgers or bridges or dreadreturn and other combo peaces etc?


what do board in is often way easier thän knowing what and how mush to board out.

[P-E]

for sideboard tips i think you can find them on previous pages ^^

in general shave DR and targets
it also depends a lot of your main and side (fow md or in side etc)

[bequemo]

It would be rly helpful if someone could give me some sideboarding examples for recent dredge lists.

I would be realy greatful to have, lets say 3,sideboarding examples aginst the popular decks

point is i need kinda a cheat sheet in a form like this:

against delver:
- 2 qwe
- 1 asd
- 1 yxc
-----
+ 2 tzu
+ 3 ghj

As a new maneless dredge player a starting point (for sideboarding) is most important to improve my self.
Decklists (inculding good sideboards) are easy to find, but it is realy difficuld to find some clues HOW to sideboard (what are my commen targets to board out
and few mu examples)

[Final Fortune]

DRS isn't that much of a problem, but fast combo decks are.

I meant both Deathrite Shaman and Elves the deck, I think Contagion is worth looking at again if Elves break out.

[ronco]

It would be rly helpful if someone could give me some sideboarding examples for recent dredge lists.

I would be realy greatful to have, lets say 3,sideboarding examples aginst the popular decks

point is i need kinda a cheat sheet in a form like this:

against delver:
- 2 qwe
- 1 asd
- 1 yxc
-----
+ 2 tzu
+ 3 ghj

As a new maneless dredge player a starting point (for sideboarding) is most important to improve my self.
Decklists (inculding good sideboards) are easy to find, but it is realy difficuld to find some clues HOW to sideboard (what are my commen targets to board out
and few mu examples)


It may be helpful to post your decklist so we know what you are working with.




Changing topics, is this the place to vary a bit into making this a more multiplayer type deck?
I've been tinkering with a spy-less, probe-less, fearless version. The goal with this is just for casual magic and the occasional multiplayer game. Free for all, or 2+ headed giant. I don't run up against top tier decks here so I wasn't really trying to be the guy to wipe out everyone all the time and be the jerk that picks on kids. I don't know if "playing with my food" is any nicer, necessarily, but I feel like it adds an element of a challenge to the deck building. Plus I like graveyard decks, so that is why I am here.

4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
2 Grave Crawler
2 Flayer

4 Bridge From Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dakmore Salvage


Variance from most lists here:
-3 or -4 Spy
+1 Flayer
-4 Probe
-1 chancellor (my addition, as a single)
-1 Grislebrand (my addition)
-2 riders


I haven't tested this one enough to determine speed, but here are my findings:
-More resilient to Thalia (prevalent in my non-tourney, casual meta)
-Can go toe to toe with creature decks better than combo version, basically buying time to "go off" or accumulate enough tokens to overrun for when the combo just doesn't want to appear in the yard, or the dredging just never materializes.
-Ghasts give more DR fodder, and more Amalgram triggers. Also goes nicely with a Flayer on board. Also more Ichy food in a pinch. Same with Grave Crawler, but having to pay the mana is a huge downside, esp when it doesn't have haste so i'm not 100% on these right now.
-Using the flayers and smaller creatures, it allows the damage to be divied up more (since this was multi player oriented, I wanted to have more than a one and done shot with the GGT). Bonus - if you get 2 flayers on board, its essentially game for at least one opponent anyway (4 for first, 8 for second, 10 if one more gets caballed/sacced for DR thanks to the undying).
-More creatures on board = more players/plansewalkers that can be attacked.

Downside:
-I miss the probes. Not only for the draw but for the hits with CT, and also knowing what kind of counter risk I am at. With the extra returning creatures I think its actually a touch more robust to counter magic, but I can't confirm this just yet.
-Less robust to combo. More misses on CT without the probes.
-See note above about probably being a tad slower.
-GGTs tend to come out smaller as there are more creatures on the board instead of the 'yard, generally. But if there are more in play, I don't see this as a bad thing. Just depends on the end goal win condition.
-still no answer to enchantments or artifacts once on board. Sideboard could handle this if needed.

Misc Thoughts:
-Thought about the myriad ability creatures that put in copies of themselves attacking all opponents. This could have negative synergy with Bridge depending on the blocker situation.
-Kessig Cagebreaker that puts a token into play attacking for each creature in your graveyard (and they stay in play after). I haven't tested this one out but could see some potential for a larger multiplayer game.
-the usual FKZ to get +1/+1 and haste for a large horde.
-Realm Razer vs Land decks in a pinch. Or if you wanted haste, avalanche riders if there was just one target land giving trouble. upside there is with the echo cost you get to sac it for tokens potentially.
-the FZK kin that gives them flying instead to get around moats.

I'm sure its pretty similar to other builds posted here in this thread but I thought this seemed to be the most likely to be able to overpower multiple players on a creature front. If its not, do I get to name it? Lol.

[Echelon]

Where can i find a good sideboard guide for manaless dredge?
meaning:
what and how mush do i board out etc.
against the common match ups.

do i cut dredgers or bridges or dreadreturn and other combo peaces etc?

what do board in is often way easier thän knowing what and how mush to board out.

To mess with your noodle a little more - sometimes it's best not to sideboard at all and just go for speed. This holds true mostly for the Spy-list (without FoWs) though.

But please post your list.


it also depends a lot of your main and side (fow md or in side etc)

Seconded!


I meant both Deathrite Shaman and Elves the deck, I think Contagion is worth looking at again if Elves break out.

I agree!


Changing topics, is this the place to vary a bit into making this a more multiplayer type deck?
I've been tinkering with a spy-less, probe-less, fearless version. The goal with this is just for casual magic and the occasional multiplayer game. Free for all, or 2+ headed giant. I don't run up against top tier decks here so I wasn't really trying to be the guy to wipe out everyone all the time and be the jerk that picks on kids. I don't know if "playing with my food" is any nicer, necessarily, but I feel like it adds an element of a challenge to the deck building. Plus I like graveyard decks, so that is why I am here.

... List ...

...

I'm sure its pretty similar to other builds posted here in this thread but I thought this seemed to be the most likely to be able to overpower multiple players on a creature front. If its not, do I get to name it? Lol.

It seems I/we beat you to it. Go a bunch of pages back (17 through 21) - it's named Horde Mode.

[ntropy]

I agree with the no sideboard, go for speed plan in some matchups. I got a turn 3 kill vs Sneak and Show last night. Turn 1 clean-up, discard Phantasmagorian. Eot pitch GGt, Bridge, Amalgam, cycle 3 Street Wraiths, Dredge 18. Turn 2 DR Flayer, it's Forced, DR again, DR GGT Good Game. in Game 2 they put Griselbrand in play on turn 2 and I beat them on turn 3 :)

[ronco]

It seems I/we beat you to it. Go a bunch of pages back (17 through 21) - it's named Horde Mode.

Yep, saw that after Amalgram came out. Its a fun build to play for sure. I was just seeing if there was a more casual, more multi player version with other, non-standard creatures (myriad, etc), or if that is the best that can be done with this style of play. I don't really play tourneys which is why I was heading down that road.

Thanks.

[RThomas-]

Let's resume discussing this deck. It's pretty good right now for those playing Legacy on the cheap.

I bought into the deck on MTGO. Don't have a lot of LGS's nearby and don't have a whole lot of money (read: very broke) so I went with what I know best. Have history with the deck, which you can read about here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25716-A-new-player-in-SCG-Washington-Manaless-Dredge). Altogether, I invested approximately $40 into MTGO. Good deal. Here's what I played:

16 Dredgers

4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Contagion
4 Bridge from Below

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Call to the Netherworld

3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Contagion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Realm Razer

I could not locate Ashen Rider beforehand because I didn't try hard enough (lame). I couldn't afford Unmask or Force of Will either, and I didn't think it was realistic to play Disrupting Shoal without it. Realm Razer is trash obviously but it was free; I won't use it again. I have enjoyed the results of testing out Call to the Netherworld and while I don't think 2 is the right number, I'll keep trying different numbers.

I joined the Competitive MTGO league with my last 12 tickets. Here is what happened.

Round 1: Grixis Delver
Lost this match.
Game 1: Villain leads with a Deathrite Shaman. I don't have removal and have to spend a few turns discarding stuff. I don't find a Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith and I die to a Delver and Young Pyromancer.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal; Out: Gitaxian Probe, Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell
Game 2: My opening eight contains 3 Street Wraith, Call to the Netherworld, Phantasmagorian, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Thug, and Dread Return. I clog the battlefield on turn 2 with about 10 zombies.
Game 3: Villain puts me on the play and leads Deathrite Shaman. I don't have either saving cards and Contagion it, but I can't ramp up quick enough to avoid Gurmag Angler and True-Name Nemesis.

Round 2: Sneak and Show
Won this match.
Game 1: I have Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian in the opener, but dredging goes slowly. My opponent durdles around while I assemble creatures but doesn't Show and Tell until turn 4. Right before, I Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp, making about a dozen Zombies. This, along with Narcomoeba, provides a stopper to his Show and Tell for Griselbrand, while I put into play a 9/9 Golgari Grave-Troll. He draws off of Griselbrand, plays Sneak Attack, and puts Emrakul into play. My fliers, however, stave off elimination when I have enough Zombies to survive Emrakul.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex; Out: 3 Contagion
Game 2: Chancellor runs down a Lotus Petal, but he played Grafdigger's Cage turn 1. Since I don't have removal, I play through and realize that it might not be instant death. I discard enough to Show and Tell an 8/8 Grave-Troll to go against his Griselbrand. It isn't enough though, and I die next turn to Sneak Attacked Emrakul.
Game 3: Chancellor runs down a Ponder. I'm able to dredge 3 Narcomoebas on the second turn, and some dredged Therapies are Forced. He isn't able to find Bridge and doesn't play either bomb, allowing me to beat over three turns.

Round 3: Miracles with Unexpectedly Absent
Won this match.
Game 1: Villain plays Portent, Predict, and a bunch of blue spells, but doesn't find any white removal, and I make a horde of Zombies to win on turn 3. Started with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian.
--In: 1 Sire of Insanity, 4 Chancellor; Out: 3 Contagion, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Gitaxian Probe
Game 2: We both are durdling around for a few turns while I dredge 2 Narcomoebas. I dredge all 4 Therapies and nab Predict from his hand. Then, I return Sire of Insanity and he scoops. Nice card.

Round 4: Epic Storm
WON this match.
Game 1: Was killed on villain's turn 2. Nothing to report.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex, 4 Faerie Macabre; Out: 3 Contagion, 2 Dread Return, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Shambling Shell
Game 2: Started with Chancellor and Faerie Macabre in hand. Villain Probed, then Therapied away Faerie. We both durdled, and I ripped a Faerie before passing again. In response to his Cabal Ritual for threshold, I discarded Faerie to take him below threshold. He ramped out to Ad Nauseum and drew 11 cards to go to 2 life. Next turn I dredged a Narcomoeba and Therapied a hand of 3 Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, and Island. I took Tutor (feedback?). He couldn't find the win next turn through a bunch of cantrips and scooped.
Game 3: Started with Chancellor, Faerie, some Phantasmagorians, and two Golgari Thugs. At his end of turn, I discarded a Thug, Chancellor, and Phantasmagorian at once. He played Surgical Extraction on Thug, and I responded by discarding Faerie to exile Thug and a Ponder. Then discarded the second Thug and dredged Therapy and a Narcomoeba. Therapy nabbed 2 Infernal Tutors, and he couldn't catch up.

Round 5: Death Tax (white)
Won this match.
Game 1: Here, I had Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the opener. He played Smuggler's Copter and AEther Vial. He played Stoneforge Mystic but I was able to cast both Probe and Therapy on turn 3 to nab Batterskull. I returned Flayer to the field and cleaned up his guys.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal, 1 Elesh Norn; Out: 2 Call to the Netherworld, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Game 2: He played AEther Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, and a Spirit of the Labyrinth. over the first three turns. I dredged two Narcomoebas and therapied away another Batterskull. Then, he played Relic of Progenitus, but tapped out to play a Mirran Crusader. What the hell. I made ten zombies the next turn and he scooped.

Earned enough to play the next round of games for free. Take these items away from this post:

Every opponent except the Storm opponent put me on the draw after losing their first game of the match. This may be because one opponent said they face dredge 1/20 matches.
In my tests, this deck excels against Grixis Delver, which I understand is popular in MTGO. Although I lost today's match, I think it can do well if you know what you're doing. Lot of mistakes today.
Total non-Deathrite hate: 1 Surgical, 1 Cage, 1 Relic. I won two of those three games where they showed up.



Go play this deck if you're broke or like to dredge.

[Echelon]

The "villain" bit made me lol.

I'm pretty sure that when piloting this deck you are considered to be the villain, James Bond-style.

[RThomas-]

The "villain" bit made me lol.

I'm pretty sure that when piloting this deck you are considered to be the villain, James Bond-style.

Lol, this is true. I'm stuck on that from my poker-playing days. All of my opponents seemed to cease their chat when I discarded my first card in game 1's.

[ChemicalBurns]

Let's resume discussing this deck. It's pretty good right now for those playing Legacy on the cheap.

I bought into the deck on MTGO. Don't have a lot of LGS's nearby and don't have a whole lot of money (read: very broke) so I went with what I know best. Have history with the deck, which you can read about here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25716-A-new-player-in-SCG-Washington-Manaless-Dredge). Altogether, I invested approximately $40 into MTGO. Good deal. Here's what I played:

16 Dredgers

4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Contagion
4 Bridge from Below

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Call to the Netherworld

3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Contagion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Realm Razer

I could not locate Ashen Rider beforehand because I didn't try hard enough (lame). I couldn't afford Unmask or Force of Will either, and I didn't think it was realistic to play Disrupting Shoal without it. Realm Razer is trash obviously but it was free; I won't use it again. I have enjoyed the results of testing out Call to the Netherworld and while I don't think 2 is the right number, I'll keep trying different numbers.

I joined the Competitive MTGO league with my last 12 tickets. Here is what happened.

Round 1: Grixis Delver
Lost this match.
Game 1: Villain leads with a Deathrite Shaman. I don't have removal and have to spend a few turns discarding stuff. I don't find a Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith and I die to a Delver and Young Pyromancer.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal; Out: Gitaxian Probe, Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell
Game 2: My opening eight contains 3 Street Wraith, Call to the Netherworld, Phantasmagorian, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Thug, and Dread Return. I clog the battlefield on turn 2 with about 10 zombies.
Game 3: Villain puts me on the play and leads Deathrite Shaman. I don't have either saving cards and Contagion it, but I can't ramp up quick enough to avoid Gurmag Angler and True-Name Nemesis.

Round 2: Sneak and Show
Won this match.
Game 1: I have Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian in the opener, but dredging goes slowly. My opponent durdles around while I assemble creatures but doesn't Show and Tell until turn 4. Right before, I Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp, making about a dozen Zombies. This, along with Narcomoeba, provides a stopper to his Show and Tell for Griselbrand, while I put into play a 9/9 Golgari Grave-Troll. He draws off of Griselbrand, plays Sneak Attack, and puts Emrakul into play. My fliers, however, stave off elimination when I have enough Zombies to survive Emrakul.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex; Out: 3 Contagion
Game 2: Chancellor runs down a Lotus Petal, but he played Grafdigger's Cage turn 1. Since I don't have removal, I play through and realize that it might not be instant death. I discard enough to Show and Tell an 8/8 Grave-Troll to go against his Griselbrand. It isn't enough though, and I die next turn to Sneak Attacked Emrakul.
Game 3: Chancellor runs down a Ponder. I'm able to dredge 3 Narcomoebas on the second turn, and some dredged Therapies are Forced. He isn't able to find Bridge and doesn't play either bomb, allowing me to beat over three turns.

Round 3: Miracles with Unexpectedly Absent
Won this match.
Game 1: Villain plays Portent, Predict, and a bunch of blue spells, but doesn't find any white removal, and I make a horde of Zombies to win on turn 3. Started with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian.
--In: 1 Sire of Insanity, 4 Chancellor; Out: 3 Contagion, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Gitaxian Probe
Game 2: We both are durdling around for a few turns while I dredge 2 Narcomoebas. I dredge all 4 Therapies and nab Predict from his hand. Then, I return Sire of Insanity and he scoops. Nice card.

Round 4: Epic Storm
WON this match.
Game 1: Was killed on villain's turn 2. Nothing to report.
--Add: 4 Chancellor of the Annex, 4 Faerie Macabre; Out: 3 Contagion, 2 Dread Return, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Shambling Shell
Game 2: Started with Chancellor and Faerie Macabre in hand. Villain Probed, then Therapied away Faerie. We both durdled, and I ripped a Faerie before passing again. In response to his Cabal Ritual for threshold, I discarded Faerie to take him below threshold. He ramped out to Ad Nauseum and drew 11 cards to go to 2 life. Next turn I dredged a Narcomoeba and Therapied a hand of 3 Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Brainstorm, Infernal Tutor, and Island. I took Tutor (feedback?). He couldn't find the win next turn through a bunch of cantrips and scooped.
Game 3: Started with Chancellor, Faerie, some Phantasmagorians, and two Golgari Thugs. At his end of turn, I discarded a Thug, Chancellor, and Phantasmagorian at once. He played Surgical Extraction on Thug, and I responded by discarding Faerie to exile Thug and a Ponder. Then discarded the second Thug and dredged Therapy and a Narcomoeba. Therapy nabbed 2 Infernal Tutors, and he couldn't catch up.

Round 5: Death Tax (white)
Won this match.
Game 1: Here, I had Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the opener. He played Smuggler's Copter and AEther Vial. He played Stoneforge Mystic but I was able to cast both Probe and Therapy on turn 3 to nab Batterskull. I returned Flayer to the field and cleaned up his guys.
--Add: 1 Contagion, 2 Sickening Shoal, 1 Elesh Norn; Out: 2 Call to the Netherworld, 1 Probe, 1 Nether Shadow
Game 2: He played AEther Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, and a Spirit of the Labyrinth. over the first three turns. I dredged two Narcomoebas and therapied away another Batterskull. Then, he played Relic of Progenitus, but tapped out to play a Mirran Crusader. What the hell. I made ten zombies the next turn and he scooped.

Earned enough to play the next round of games for free. Take these items away from this post:

Every opponent except the Storm opponent put me on the draw after losing their first game of the match. This may be because one opponent said they face dredge 1/20 matches.
In my tests, this deck excels against Grixis Delver, which I understand is popular in MTGO. Although I lost today's match, I think it can do well if you know what you're doing. Lot of mistakes today.
Total non-Deathrite hate: 1 Surgical, 1 Cage, 1 Relic. I won two of those three games where they showed up.



Go play this deck if you're broke or like to dredge.

Nice stuff.

With Grixis Delver so popular, I really love Chancellor in the main. With Chancellor, Wraith and Phantas you're highly unlikely to have to worry about DRS and can turbo through it. I like what you've done with your threat package, not even worrying about Spy - Flayer or GGT alone is often enough, I agree, and a DR target to flip the library isn't often necessary.

[ntropy]

I played this last week at my LGS, I went 3-0, it was great!

I played Spy and Unmask in the main, with 15 dredgers. Chancellors, Faeries Macabres, Sickening Shoals and Contagions in the board.

Round 1 I beat Burn. 2-1 I lost game 2 to Surgical, but I was too slow anyways. Game 3 I was at 1 and he had a suspended rift bolt when I combo'd.
Round 2 I beat Lands. 2-1. Game 2 I lost steam to a Bog and then had no out to Chasm. I swapped in my Faeries and didn't need them game 3.
Round 3 I beat UB Reanimator 2-0. Game 1 even Griselbrand could not race my board. Game 2 Faerie Macabre blew out his Elesh Norn.

Just thought I'd share. I will always love this deck, and the meta seems ok for it right now. (Seems amazing for it at my LGS!)