[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[RThomas-]

Nice stuff.

With Grixis Delver so popular, I really love Chancellor in the main. With Chancellor, Wraith and Phantas you're highly unlikely to have to worry about DRS and can turbo through it. I like what you've done with your threat package, not even worrying about Spy - Flayer or GGT alone is often enough, I agree, and a DR target to flip the library isn't often necessary.

I agree. Added since then:

+4 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Call to the Netherworld
-2 Contagion
-1 Dread Return (had 61 cards)

An online sideboard that has worked well:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return

This week in legacy league, I've done several 4-1's. I've also done a few 0-5's. Here are some thoughts from this experience:

--Grixis Delver is the most popular, so I attempt to gear spots to beat it. Contagion makes a difference, but on less occasions than expected. Generally it advances me a third of the time I cast it, at most. The only hate from them we can't beat is Grafdigger's Cage, which is often a 1-of and never more than a 2-of. Surgical Extraction is the main threat, and I can work around it.
--As a corollary, this seems to be the best form of Dredge to play against Delver. I've tried all of the different dredge forms against it and I conclude their permission is overwhelming to us. The best way to shut it off, especially against Young Pyromancer, is to simply play no spells. If you choose Dredge, this version is probably the strongest against that.
--Versus real-world experience, I've not found that I miss Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal a great amount. In 65 matches this week with Manaless, I've not seen Rest in Peace one tie, and seen Grafdigger's Cage in 4-6 games (one of those games vs. Sneak and Show I won). I have seen Leyline of the Void in more games than that, and there's obviously nothing to do against that. I've seen Containment Priest more and that's easily dealt with. Against Storm and Reanimator, the Faerie Macabre have been much better, to the point where I find Reanimator a favorable matchup.
--I want to continue playing Call to the Netherworld to counteract Surgical Extraction, but this has turned out to be too situational, reactionary, and insufficient. Besides that, Surgical is never game-ending, even in multiples.
--No one tests against or expects dredge. I kept a count of the 65 matches I played to this point, and in 52 times that the post-side opponent had the choice, they chose to play first. They also do things like play Surgical on Grave-Trolls, play Reanimate on Phantasmagorian or Chancellor of the Annex, or fail to Therapy away a relevant Faerie Macabre. So you can take advantage of this.

[WarpWorld]

This week in legacy league, I've done several 4-1's. I've also done a few 0-5's. Here are some thoughts from this experience:

--Grixis Delver is the most popular, so I attempt to gear spots to beat it. Contagion makes a difference, but on less occasions than expected. Generally it advances me a third of the time I cast it, at most. The only hate from them we can't beat is Grafdigger's Cage, which is often a 1-of and never more than a 2-of. Surgical Extraction is the main threat, and I can work around it.
--Versus real-world experience, I've not found that I miss Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal a great amount. In 65 matches this week with Manaless, I've not seen Rest in Peace one tie, and seen Grafdigger's Cage in 4-6 games (one of those games vs. Sneak and Show I won). I have seen Leyline of the Void in more games than that, and there's obviously nothing to do against that. I've seen Containment Priest more and that's easily dealt with. Against Storm and Reanimator, the Faerie Macabre have been much better, to the point where I find Reanimator a favorable matchup.
--I want to continue playing Call to the Netherworld to counteract Surgical Extraction, but this has turned out to be too situational, reactionary, and insufficient. Besides that, Surgical is never game-ending, even in multiples.
--No one tests against or expects dredge. I kept a count of the 65 matches I played to this point, and in 52 times that the post-side opponent had the choice, they chose to play first. They also do things like play Surgical on Grave-Trolls, play Reanimate on Phantasmagorian or Chancellor of the Annex, or fail to Therapy away a relevant Faerie Macabre. So you can take advantage of this.

on call to the netherworld isn't noxious revival better against surgical extraction it seems less narrow and can re-buy narcos and doesn't require a discard outlet to function. I have also been playing FOWless online as of late and it seems fine right now. I agree that Faerie is strong in the meta right now. I do find most of my wins (paper/online) come from the 'casual' beat down plan as it snowballs out of control. I do feel we could trim or cut the combo pieces and play with other things because the core is so strong. Here's to testing and dredging.

[Echelon]

The flipside is that Call can turn into Time Walk when returning a Street Wraith.

[RThomas-]

on call to the netherworld isn't noxious revival better against surgical extraction it seems less narrow and can re-buy narcos and doesn't require a discard outlet to function

This is all true. Arguments for Noxious Revival:
--Saves other stuff like Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy
--Re-stocks Narcomoeba
--Functions similar, though not a replacement for, Faerie Macabre in some matchups, notably Reanimator

Against:
--Slows your dredging by a turn if played turn 1 or 2 while you restock your hand
--Does not speed you up against stuff like Deathrite Shaman
--Cannot be pitched to Contagion
--Fully reactionary; value this at your own level

But I find that "reactionary" also applies to Contagion in a majority of situations. That card seems to be the 60th card in the deck in many of my forms. Other stuff like Vengeful Pharaoh, Faerie Macabre, Dread Return, and Sickening Shoal are about as good and perhaps a little less. So there it is.

[Echelon]

When Pharaoh is good, it usually is very good. Opponents usually hate it badly enough to want to get rid of that instead of something that actually matters to you.

Still just a SB card though.

[RThomas-]

After a lot of 4-1's and 0-5's, I finally did a 5-0 on MTGO legacy leagues. Joined another Manaless player playing with Balustrade Spy earlier this week. The list I've come to is:

16 dredgers
4 of Shadow, Ichorid, Amalgam, Narcomoeba
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Therapy
4 Bridge
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Contagion

Sideboard:
3 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona
1 Dread Return
3 Disrupting Shoal (still can't buy FOW, too bad)

The matchups were:
Grixis Delver: 2-1
BR Reanimator: 2-0
Death Tax: 2-1
URB Tezzerator: 2-1
Shardless BUG: 2-1

Some observations based on my previous posts:

--Chancellor of the Annex over-performs, consistently. I don't know why I didn't play it maindeck before. Since the deck usually loses to resolved Cage and RIP, I never find myself siding it out. It slows the opposite side a turn which has proven to be sufficient to eke out a board.
--The shift from RIP to Containment Priest in white is a good thing for us. I side in Contagion against Death Tax anyway, and other white aggro usually plays Deathrite Shaman, so it's most often a live card.
--The sideboard obviously would rather have FOW against Cage than Shoal, but Cage has landed so rarely that I haven't been concerned by it yet. Shoal did win once by countering a Transmute Artifact in the Tezz matchup.
--The Contagion may be exchanged for Dread Return at your leisure; I often wanted to play Dread Return no matter what. This has already been beaten to death but find a spot for it.
--I find myself playing zero spells in a non-zero amount of games. This is usually a great thing against permission-based tempo, which is all of Delver.


The short, stupid story is that this is a brag post. Have fun at GP Vegas.

[ChemicalBurns]

Everyone seems to be on lists trimming Dread Return and running no deck-flipper. I like this, since reviving GGT, Chancellor or even Flayer on his own has usually felt like enough.

Of course, we drop some combo speed, but it gives us a bit more feasible room for:

Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe

Creatures: (41)
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Sideboard: (15)
1 Ashen Rider
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Vengeful Pharaoh

I'm maining FoW again. The Blue count is pretty scarce and hits the bare minimum (16), and this is still pretty untested. But it feels like pre-board and post-board (now with Leylines in the SB that I've been yearning for sometime) there is a strong chance against combo like ANT which I felt we had a pretty mediocre matchup against. And the card can always at least have some form of utility. I like the grindy less all-in comboing direction everyone is heading. Manaless has always felt like the best beatdown deck of the Dredge variants and I think we should capitalise on that.

Anyway, will be testing this moving forward!

[Echelon]

If you're omitting deck flippers you could also go for the following list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast

3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Phantasmagorian

All meat, just Flayer for some combo-esque finish. W/ all those creatures recurring, your opponent should be dead in no-time.

[RThomas-]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp


I have a problem with this and I'm interested to hear results that rebut my problem. I have never, ever wanted less than 16 dredgers in this deck even after sideboarding. Are you using your Probe/Wraith package in situations where you don't open with a dredger so that you can dig for one? That would seem to mean one less card for Force as well as one less accelerator to get you to the win. While I realize that my sideboarding tactics above don't support this position, this is what I want the vast majority of the time.

The numbers on opening with at least one dredger in your opening eight, playing:
14 dredgers: 89.80%
16 dredgers: 93.07%
An interesting statistic yet un-proposed may be tallying the games you have no dredgers in your opening and how often you manage to win those games. In my experience, the percentage is low. Coupled with those games where you drop to a hate card you can't get around, the tolerance would seem to wear quite thin.

Further: if the combo matchup feels that poor, perhaps we play four Leyline of Sanctity and make sure we see one in our opener. The difference there is 31% in our opening seven with three versus 39% with four. If the former tolerance is too low, then the latter is certainly too low.

[Final Fortune]

I have a problem with this and I'm interested to hear results that rebut my problem. I have never, ever wanted less than 16 dredgers in this deck even after sideboarding. Are you using your Probe/Wraith package in situations where you don't open with a dredger so that you can dig for one? That would seem to mean one less card for Force as well as one less accelerator to get you to the win. While I realize that my sideboarding tactics above don't support this position, this is what I want the vast majority of the time.

The numbers on opening with at least one dredger in your opening eight, playing:
14 dredgers: 89.80%
16 dredgers: 93.07%
An interesting statistic yet un-proposed may be tallying the games you have no dredgers in your opening and how often you manage to win those games. In my experience, the percentage is low. Coupled with those games where you drop to a hate card you can't get around, the tolerance would seem to wear quite thin.

Further: if the combo matchup feels that poor, perhaps we play four Leyline of Sanctity and make sure we see one in our opener. The difference there is 31% in our opening seven with three versus 39% with four. If the former tolerance is too low, then the latter is certainly too low.

No, you're on the right track, I've been arguing for MD Chancellor of the Annex and 16 Dredgers for years: the fact of the matter is Deathrite Shaman is your primary concern and the biggest difference between 12 to 16 Dredgers is how quickly you recover from Surgical Extraction on your first Dredger. Leyline of Sanctity is a legitimate choice, especially when a lot of people are going to remove Echoing Truth for Abrase in Storm.

[RThomas-]

Everyone seems to be on lists trimming Dread Return and running no deck-flipper. I like this

So do I. Let's talk about one in particular: Ashen Rider

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all. I tried out this route after reading about user laststepdown's experience with it starting here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=981925&viewfull=1#post981925). I must agree with his logic and note that Ashen Rider enhances two poor matchups in particular that Flayer does not, Sneak/Show and Lands.

Here is a list of pros and cons for you to contemplate.

Pros:
--Rids you of game-losing permanents such as Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Marit Lage tokens, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, and other stuff.
--Plays well with Bridge from Below.
--Exiles two permanents with a Therapy or second Dread Return. Sometimes exiles three or more permanents with both in your graveyard.
--Is a nice surprise vs. Exhume.
--Pitches to Ichorid and Contagion, or Sickening Shoal to kill a Griselbrand.
--Makes your opponent concede the game.

Cons:
--A hot Reanimate/Animate Dead target vs. Reanimator.
--Does not win the game the same turn he/she comes into play.
--Removes only one/two/three problematic permanents at a time.

Here is what Flayer of the Hatebound does for you.
Pros:
--Might win the game in the same turn with enough Amalgams or a second Dread Return.
--Sweeps your opponent's board of creatures.
--Has the undying mechanic.

Cons:
--Does not remove any of those stupid permanents I listed above.
--Does not pitch to Ichorid, Contagion, or Shoal.
--Does not play well with Bridge from Below.

One must ask themselves whether they actually do win, or can win, more games with a returned Flayer or an Ashen Rider. Certainly there are not enough recorded matches to tell for sure, but I wager to you that the numbers are close if not heavily in Rider's favor. The lesson from my experience is that once Rider is returned, winning the game is quite elementary. This is what you want out of a maindeck Dread Return target anyway. I believe that this is a compelling case to play Ashen Rider in place of Flayer of the Hatebound. Let's see what others have to show for it.

Edit: I fully back this up with another 5-0 on MTGO. The maindeck's changes from the last one:
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Contagion
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Dread Return

[Echelon]

If you want to keep winning the game after resolving a Dread Return you should just keep playing a deck flipper, period.

[P-E]

Lsv has posted 3 matches on cfb
Lots of mistakes but it s good to see manaless ahah

[Echelon]

Someone should tell the guy GGT is pretty damn big when you DR it...

[ronco]

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all.

I'm sure its different for the variations of the deck, but I feel if i switch to the rider in my particular build (horde mode) it slows me down at least a turn with the lone exception of spot removal (glacial chasm, elesh norn, for example). Rider is a useful SB card in my opinion against those match ups, similar to a vengeful pharaoh IMO. But for me, its not a great main deck option right now esp regarding flayer's spot. Flayer generally wins me the game that turn it comes out or at the latest during the next turns upkeep. Plus it gets around some things like tabernacle (undying) or moat (direct damage) anyway.

[ChemicalBurns]

So do I. Let's talk about one in particular: Ashen Rider

I have played this in place of Flayer of the Hatebound in a bundle of matches this week. I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not wish it was Flayer at all. I tried out this route after reading about user laststepdown's experience with it starting here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=981925&viewfull=1#post981925). I must agree with his logic and note that Ashen Rider enhances two poor matchups in particular that Flayer does not, Sneak/Show and Lands.

Here is a list of pros and cons for you to contemplate.

Pros:
--Rids you of game-losing permanents such as Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Marit Lage tokens, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, and other stuff.
--Plays well with Bridge from Below.
--Exiles two permanents with a Therapy or second Dread Return. Sometimes exiles three or more permanents with both in your graveyard.
--Is a nice surprise vs. Exhume.
--Pitches to Ichorid and Contagion, or Sickening Shoal to kill a Griselbrand.
--Makes your opponent concede the game.

Cons:
--A hot Reanimate/Animate Dead target vs. Reanimator.
--Does not win the game the same turn he/she comes into play.
--Removes only one/two/three problematic permanents at a time.

Here is what Flayer of the Hatebound does for you.
Pros:
--Might win the game in the same turn with enough Amalgams or a second Dread Return.
--Sweeps your opponent's board of creatures.
--Has the undying mechanic.

Cons:
--Does not remove any of those stupid permanents I listed above.
--Does not pitch to Ichorid, Contagion, or Shoal.
--Does not play well with Bridge from Below.

One must ask themselves whether they actually do win, or can win, more games with a returned Flayer or an Ashen Rider. Certainly there are not enough recorded matches to tell for sure, but I wager to you that the numbers are close if not heavily in Rider's favor. The lesson from my experience is that once Rider is returned, winning the game is quite elementary. This is what you want out of a maindeck Dread Return target anyway. I believe that this is a compelling case to play Ashen Rider in place of Flayer of the Hatebound. Let's see what others have to show for it.

Edit: I fully back this up with another 5-0 on MTGO. The maindeck's changes from the last one:
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Contagion
+1 Ashen Rider
+1 Dread Return

Good reasoning, and I'd be happy to trial this in the recent side events I'm going. I love me a Dread Return target that can feed Icky (though I feel we're usually pretty stocked in terms of Icky food, compared to something like LED Dredge).

Flayer has spots where he really shines though, especially against combo where you need to kill them there and then (and a Chancellor is not enough). I do like your point about it vs. S&S though. I think its very close, and honestly I may try Rider just because it gives me an extra SB slot. It's also much more of a consideration now that we're only aiming to DR once per game (since I'm only running 3 DR atm).

Keep up the discussion guys. I've played a little with my recent deck-flipperless list and the smoothness is unparalled compared to any Dredge build I've ever played. The graveyard feels so well-stocked, and there's a lot of disruptive elements with Force/Chancellor/Therapy and the acceleration of Wraith.

@RThomas I'd highly recommend trying Forces in the main if you can get them.

[WarpWorld]

Took my list from like page 36 to a top 8 of a 75 man 1k this weekend with this sideboard.

4 Force of Will
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Noxious Revival
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Serra Avatar

Match ups:
R1 Junk Blade 1-2
R2 Bye
R3 Moon Stompy 2-1
R4 TES 2-0
R5 Burn 2-1
R6 MUD post 2-0
R7 Czech Pile draw
5-1-1 for 6th after swiss
T8 Czech Pile 0-2

[Echelon]

Not bad. Congrats!

[WarpWorld]

Not bad. Congrats!

Thanks. The deck felt strong all day and I feel that Czech Pile is a favorable matchup for us. I had some poor dredges and my opponent played really well in the top8. I got to chat with another manaless player whom I think ended up x-2. The only thing I would say is that I would like to try and find room somewhere for either shoal or contagion. I only boarded in the full set FOWs against MUD, TES and the blade deck otherwise I boarded in maybe 1 or 2 depending.

On Rider in the MD. I think for now I leave him in the board unless we add a second target for DR. I have been testing him over Flayer in no-flip and flip lists. Flayer wins more games there are corner cases where the damage is relevant and removing a permanent is not enough on its own. Rider is really good and powerful but he isn't better than what we are doing now.

I will keep testing and jamming. Happy dredging.

[Xenio]

Hi boys, i don't come in this forum since a long time. I have tryhard Manaless Dredge since few years now and I see some of you have some interogation so let's see my point of vue :

Prized Amalgam is 4 slots is obvious

Force of Will MD is bad
Yes it is. Force have to be play in sideboard. Hide the Force is good, to surprise the opponent with a counter in game 2. Moreover Force in game 1 is useless, the only viable target is shaman, and you can go over it. I play Force in side and always side-in them in game 2.
But you can play Force MD is you want to "free" some slot in your sideboard.

You can play with less than 16 dredgers
I play during 1 years a list with only 12 dredgers, and that really going well, the number of time I dont have enought dredger is really few and I consider this like a deck doing a manadeath. 14 is more stable, if you're meta don't have enought hate you don't need a lot of protection and you can run more than 12.
Think like it's useless to have 16 dredgers if you get RIP by RIP.

Ashen rider is maybe viable
Ashen Rider plan from R-Thomas is really interesting, the card seems to be really powerfull in this meta. But Flayers is fuckingly powerfull, play both of them is maybe a good idea. I will try them.

Disrupting shoal is a risky slot
Siding the shoal + the force really delay you combo plan and if you side 4 shoal this card counter the good card in only 12% of the case. (40% to get a shoal in hand, 40% to get a card to pitch of the good CCM). I prefer have some Vengefull Pharaoh (agaisnt Show and tell, reanimator, D&T).

Whirlpool riders is op
I play him in my blu-list and he really do the same work as the Balustrad spy, I never don't dredge my entire deck with a first DR on the rider.

Lands+Bloodghast plan not worth it
I play a deck with them and you infest too much slot in this to get it worth it, but play with River Kelpi and bloodghast is very fun :p

Now I have some question :
Did you think manaless dredge is better than LED dredge ?
It was before the ban of sensei divining top, but now ?

I see list with no whirlpool rider or spy. Don't you miss an auto-win button ?


Sorry for my english and happy dredging

[RThomas-]

Hi boys, i don't come in this forum since a long time. I have tryhard Manaless Dredge since few years now and I see some of you have some interogation so let's see my point of vue :

Hi there and good work. Here are a couple thoughts to share:

--If you want less dredgers, I want to know your sample size for having/not having a dredger in your starting eight. By this I mean how many games are you pulling your experience with 12 dredgers from? The math is settled on how likely you are to start with at least one dredger in your hand. If you're not having problems with it, then great. However, I fear your tune will change with more games.

--It is hard to say whether one deck is better than the other one right now. We must know about the decks you will play against. Is their lots of Leyline of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace when counting types of graveyard hate? Perhaps LED Dredge is better for you now. Is it more Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction? Maybe you will do better with the Manaless deck.

--I don't know if our outlook changed that much with the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles deck was the most important deck to play it and while they got a little bit slower, there are not far more or fewer people playing the new version (in my experience).

[Xenio]

I want to know your sample size for having/not having a dredger in your starting eight. By this I mean how many games are you pulling your experience with 12 dredgers from?

I play more of 120 rounds with it so at least 250 times, i think that having a shambling shell is not worth, i prefer have slot for Contagion to kill a shaman. I don't say my choice is right, but it's possible and you don't open so often a hand without dredger. 16 is too much but i can understand to play 14 dredger. You don't need this over constancy to have a dredger in hand since getting 2 is often useless. (But it's maybe only me, I tryhard every one of my slot).

For looking into this more deeply :
With 12 dredgers you have 80% to have at least one in hand.
With 14 dredgers you have 86% to have at least one in hand.
With 16 dredgers you have 90% to have at least one in hand.

If you don't have dredger in hand and you Mulligan one time :
With 12 dredgers you have 75% to have at least one in hand.
With 14 dredgers you have 81% to have at least one in hand.
With 16 dredgers you have 96% to have at least one in hand.

The really reason to play shell is too have a dredger in hand, if we regroup this stat, the chance to get no dredgers after one mulligan is :
With 12 dredgers :5%
With 14 dredgers :1,44%
With 16 dredgers :0,4%

I accept to loose 5% of my game cause I don't have dredgers.


I don't know if our outlook changed that much with the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles deck was the most important deck to play it and while they got a little bit slower, there are not far more or fewer people playing the new version (in my experience).

Miracle was a free win, so loose this match up decrease the average winrate of manaless.

[Final Fortune]

Using Shambling Shell isn't just a matter of drawing a Dredger, but drawing 2 Dredgers for Phantasmagorian to play around Deathrite Shaman or to be able to recover after a Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt etc. without going into top deck. There really isn't a better card for their slot, unless you are playing the MD Force of Will version you're just reducing consistency for the sake of reducing consistency as even Gitaxian Probe slows the deck down more than speeds it up when you consider on average it will either be countered or one less black creature for Ichorid or Nether Shadow.

Shambling Shell is for grinding through hate the same way basic lands are for building up a manabase vs Wasteland.

[Echelon]

And Shell is food for Ichorid, which is also important. I've been running 15 dredgers for ages now, wouldn't go below that.

[Snowfire]

Hey guys, I had a look at the recent top decks at the moment (meta share). It seems that everyone is running a playset of DRS at the moment BUT most decks are also running no grave hate other that Surgical Extraction in their sideboards right now. And we very well can beat DRS and Surgical. Since I have picked up a beautiful FBB Nether Shadow playset I'm burning for this deck again. God how much I hate whitebordered cards. Well anyway I had a little time on my vacation and built an up2date list (not tested yet!) for the current meta.

Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

Anti DRS
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Contagion

Idiots
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam

Combo/Other
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Contagion
3 Noxious Revival
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider
2 Unmask

I figured a single Contagion as an additional anti DRS card mainboard might be of value. But it might also just be another Shadow, Shell or Rider. I'm open for suggestions.

Also no FoW mainboard. I feel we rarely need it mainboard but I feel we do need 2 dredgers in hand with Phantasmagorian because of DRS. Hence the 3 Shells.

Further I only have 2 combo creatures (1 Rider, 1 Flayer) because I currently value consistency (Shadow, Shell) over the combo kill (it will happen often enough anyway). Further you can just reanimate the first Chancellor you see and are good to go against most fast combo decks where you would really want/need a fast machine-gun Flayer kill.

I also strongly consider mainboarding Ashen Rider over Flayer because of RThomas's experiences.

Hence the increased amount of Surgical Extractions I have included 3 Noxious Revivals in the sideboard to supplement Street Wraith (saving dem trolls) or safe Ichorids etc. The times I got hit hard by Extractions was not by getting dredgers removed but by the opponent waiting for the perfect shot to get Ichorids/Narcos/whatever. Street Wraith won't do anything about that, Noxious Revival will. I'm not sure though if I should go down to 2 Revivals and add another Faerie Macabre. Any suggestions?

I am happy about any input, I might take Manaless to my next tournament.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Echelon]

A single Contagion seems rather lackluster. The odds of you having it at the same time your opponent has a DRS you can't get past and that your opponent can't protect are incredibly slim, so why bother?

[Snowfire]

What would you use the slot for? The 4th Shell?

Is Contagion even worth boarding against DRS?

[Echelon]

What would you use the slot for? The 4th Shell?

Is Contagion even worth boarding against DRS?

Another Nether Shadow. 15 dredgers is fine, there's no need to add nr. 16.

[compacta_d]

New Dredge player-trying both versions and losing to newbness and sometimes bad dredges.

People seem to think manaless is the lesser version, but I think there are pros/cons to both and I may like manaless better regardless because it's fun.

I noticed the lack of dredgers even in one fnm with 12 only.

I think the Spyless versions are interesting, and may actually be unnecessary.

If spyless however, and assumming FOW in sb, which I have, why is River Kelpie not played as much? It provides control and play of the deck, triggers of casting DR AND CT as well as its own persist, which to me seems better in a deck that ideally has 0 cards in hand and phantasmagorians in yard. I see a play like DR the kelpie, dredge, sac to cabal, 2 more dredges and they discard and get zombos, and basically loop similarly to if you did a spy anyway. Triggers on narcomeobas, nethers, prizeds and ichorids. And assuming an opponent is actually trying to force you to do something you can always just draw the card. Then it pitches to FOW.

everyone here seems to have good discussion on this. I'm interested in the answers.

Call to the netherworld seems awesome to me. Between Phansmagorian and Cabal therapy I feel like it would be super easy to repeat that into a streetwraith for more instant speed draws.

[Echelon]

Kelpie needs Bloodghast and the dredge land to function. It's also a lot of work to go through all of the triggers. There's probably a list with it somewhere in this threat.

Can you post your 75?

[compacta_d]

Kelpie needs Bloodghast and the dredge land to function. It's also a lot of work to go through all of the triggers. There's probably a list with it somewhere in this threat.

Can you post your 75?

Why is that? I figured with flashback + all the yard creature triggers it would work.

I don't have a 75 with Kelpie. Previous was:

12 dredgers
4 chancellor
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Nether SHadow
4 Ichorid
3 prized amalgam
4 narcos
4 dread returns
4 cabal therapy
4 street wraith
4 probes
4 bridges
1 flayer
4 phantasmos
1 flamekin

4 fow
4 faerie macs
3 contagion
1 prized
1 whirpool rider
1 iona
1 elesh? forget exactly

[Echelon]

Why is that? I figured with flashback + all the yard creature triggers it would work.

I don't have a 75 with Kelpie. Previous was:

12 dredgers
4 chancellor
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Nether SHadow
4 Ichorid
3 prized amalgam
4 narcos
4 dread returns
4 cabal therapy
4 street wraith
4 probes
4 bridges
1 flayer
4 phantasmos
1 flamekin

4 fow
4 faerie macs
3 contagion
1 prized
1 whirpool rider
1 iona
1 elesh? forget exactly

You need them so you can go for the combo kill that same turn. If you just mean to DR a creature and not combo them to death that turn, just DR Flayer of the Hatebound. It's the quickest route to victory. No need to speed up your dredges.

As for your list - between 14 and 16 dredgers would be the golden standard. You've experienced why. If you want to run FoWs (anywhere) and no Disrupting Shoals, just choose Whirlpool Drake as your standard DR target. Its CMC doesn't matter due to the lack of Shoal, and since it gives you twice the dredges Rider would it is by definition better. There's also the corner case where it could block a Merit Lage token, but that's very, very rare and can also be done by Stinkweed Imp. Just cut the Spies, go w/ Drake & free up some extra slots in your SB.

As for Manaless vs. LED Dredge - those unfamiliar to Manaless do seem to have that sentiment. The thing is that while Manaless is simply dead vs. a few very specific hate cards, it cares much less about less powerful (but more frequently seen) hate. LED Dredge can be controlled relatively easily w/ a DRS, or stuff like Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre. Just get rid of their Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Vs. Manaless, you can take away any given part and the deck'll just continue to function. Strip away Ichorids? Sure, we've got 12 recurring creatures left. Strip away a bunch of dredgers? Sure, we've got a bunch more. Strip away DR/CT or DR targets? Drop tax stuff so we can't execute the combo kill? We don't care, we'll just go for Horde Mode. Kill our Bridges? Fine, we've got plenty of recurring creatures to function without. Vs. a lot of decks, it's have Cage/RiP or bust.

[compacta_d]

I did feel the lack of dredgers. the inconsistency is what bugged me.

I'm not saying dropping flayer is the right move, that is the argument being made up a bit in the thread. I'm saying if you do drop it AND Balustrades, why not Kelpie.

I probably will pick up a few drakes to test numbers. They are better than Rider.

My reasoning for Kelpie > Drake is that Drake only works with cards in hand and optimally we want to NOT have cards in hand due to phantasmagorian and not wanting dredgers in hand. To me this makes something that works from yard strategies the better engine card.

I agree about the differences between dredge decks, but I do think LED dredge has more control over the game plan and tends to go faster. Having mana also gives access to SB cards to anti-hate the yard hate. I'm not saying it's the better deck. I don't have enough experience with either really. These are my ideas for it. Going to pick up call to the netherworlds as well. that seems fun.

[Echelon]

I did feel the lack of dredgers. the inconsistency is what bugged me.

I'm not saying dropping flayer is the right move, that is the argument being made up a bit in the thread. I'm saying if you do drop it AND Balustrades, why not Kelpie.

I probably will pick up a few drakes to test numbers. They are better than Rider.

My reasoning for Kelpie > Drake is that Drake only works with cards in hand and optimally we want to NOT have cards in hand due to phantasmagorian and not wanting dredgers in hand. To me this makes something that works from yard strategies the better engine card.

I agree about the differences between dredge decks, but I do think LED dredge has more control over the game plan and tends to go faster. Having mana also gives access to SB cards to anti-hate the yard hate. I'm not saying it's the better deck. I don't have enough experience with either really. These are my ideas for it. Going to pick up call to the netherworlds as well. that seems fun.

Kelpie without Flayer is completely unnecessary. When removing the DR package, just cut the Dread Returns themselves as well while you're at it for extra slots. That being said, I'd never, ever cut Flayer. It's too damn strong.

As for Kelpie vs. Drake - 2 cards in hand equals 4 dredges. It gets really nuts, really quick.

[kombatkiwi]

Other options for 'Blue Creature that draws multiple cards on ETB' are Sphinx of Lost Truths (or maybe even Prime Speaker Zegana).

The common argument for LED vs Manaless is the one that Echelon outlines where even though Manaless can get totally hosed by e.g. RIP, Leyline, it is better at playing through more common hate such as DRS and Surgical. My 2c on the LED vs Manaless is that both decks lose to graveyard hate but the LED version also loses to counterspells. Saying that LED is better against hate because you can play spells to answer it is not a convincing argument for me because it's so hard to get that play to line up correctly.

Where the LED version is clearly better is against other combo decks because it's simply much faster.

[compacta_d]

Keplie can draw that many and more without any cards in hand, which is the gameplan. That's my main point.

Dread kelpie-draw a card, sac keplie to cabal therapy, that's two more cards. one off cast one off persist trigger.

If you sac kelpie to another dread thats 3 cards, cast, kelpie persist, and whatever comes back.

Keplie is ALWAYS live, where whirlpools are only live with cards in hand, which is where you DON'T want to be.

Regardless I'll try both.

My experience with both dredge decks is that you often don't have the answer for the hate regardless. I agree that manaless is better v targeted hate rather than broad hate. RIP tends to be RIP regardless for my games.

that sphinx is awesome. Will be buying those. I was considering the new hour of devastation blue guy, but sphinx does that better. Thanks!

[Echelon]

Dread kelpie-draw a card, sac keplie to cabal therapy, that's two more cards. one off cast one off persist trigger.

If you sac kelpie to another dread thats 3 cards, cast, kelpie persist, and whatever comes back.

Keplie is ALWAYS live, where whirlpools are only live with cards in hand, which is where you DON'T want to be.

There's an error in order there though - you want to cast CT before casting DR, not after. I mean, Daze, FoW & Spell Pierce are still cards, right? And strictly speaking, Kelpie only is live when you can cast spells from your graveyard (so a lone Kelpie on the board doesn't necessarily do much here) or when there are other creatures recurring from your GY.

As for the cards in hand thing - I don't mind having a couple of dredgers in hand (which happens naturally) or, situationally, just discarding 3 cards to Phantasmagorian instead of 6 b/c I know I'm about to combo out.

[ronco]

The reason to play kelpie would, from what I can tell in the list you gave, act as an additional spy/draw engine to get to your combo. But you aren't even running 4 spys in your list, so why wouldn't you just add a 4th spy before finding room for a kelpie? Am I missing something?

[compacta_d]

the conversation started with someone saying that flayer and spies aren't necessary for the deck. that the deck runs smoothly enough to not need it.

My point was to add to the engine with kelpies because you can control the draws and still dredge out.

Yes you want to DR after CT, but after you can do both and dredge at the same time.

Nevermind everyone I'll goldfish it, and when i get to playing it in an fnm i'll report back. It'll be a while though as I'm playing something else right now.

[ronco]

My bad. I thought the kelpie was a fresh topic vs continuation of the existing one and you were working it into your above list.

I had tried whirlpool rider/drake in the main and I didn't care for it too much. I tended to either whiff on it and waste a DR or it wasn't necessary at the time and I would have rather had a different card (not all but most). I haven't tried a kelpie and that may be better since it's more reusable, but I don't know.

Fwiw I run horde mode with no spies, 2 flayer, and 15 dredgers (3 of which are dakmore salvage to combat thalia and bring in bloodghasts. I don't run riders, contagions, or pharaohs main at the moment). Maybe it works better in another build?

[compacta_d]

My bad. I thought the kelpie was a fresh topic vs continuation of the existing one and you were working it into your above list.

I had tried whirlpool rider/drake in the main and I didn't care for it too much. I tended to either whiff on it and waste a DR or it wasn't necessary at the time and I would have rather had a different card (not all but most). I haven't tried a kelpie and that may be better since it's more reusable, but I don't know.

Fwiw I run horde mode with no spies, 2 flayer, and 15 dredgers (3 of which are dakmore salvage to combat thalia and bring in bloodghasts. I don't run riders, contagions, or pharaohs main at the moment). Maybe it works better in another build?

that actually sounds fun, but is not manaless.

got a list though?

[Echelon]

I love that the name Horde Mode stuck around :laugh:

[ronco]

that actually sounds fun, but is not manaless.

got a list though?

You are correct, technically not manaless, but i say that since I just use it to pay "taxes", it still counts. That's how i sleep at night :)

//dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage

//Draws
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street wraith

//Recurring
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether shadow
4 Bloodghast

//Other critters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

//The rest
4 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below

[Echelon]

Concerning your list - I'd probably swap a DR for a 4th copy of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is more important than DR, especially now you only aim to resolve 1/2 DR rather than 2/3.

[WarpWorld]

I love that the name Horde Mode stuck around :laugh:

I always tell my opponents to fear the hoard.


Concerning your list - I'd probably swap a DR for a 4th copy of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is more important than DR, especially now you only aim to resolve 1/2 DR rather than 2/3.

I agree with this.

@ronco your list looks to be set up to abuse Kelpie. I know there is an older list somewhere from when it was tried before. If you want to leave your list as is I would test +2 kelpie and go down 1 DR and 1 Nether Shadow.

I have also recently been playing with 2 Flayers again and loving it. I don't think that playing Ashen Rider over Flayer is correct.

[ronco]

@ronco your list looks to be set up to abuse Kelpie. I know there is an older list somewhere from when it was tried before. If you want to leave your list as is I would test +2 kelpie and go down 1 DR and 1 Nether Shadow.



I can certainly give it a shot and see how it feels. I wasn't a huge fan of the drakes/riders when I tested them, but maybe kelpie works better. I envision I could DR it, triggers itself, dredge something, flip a narco, trigger again. cast cabal therapy, trigger twice thanks to persist, DR a flayer perhaps, triggers twice again.... amalgrams come in EOT, trigger some more...


I like 2 flayers too. I ran into issues of not having it available when I needed it and the second one really helped. I have the riders I can bring in if needed but so far hasn't really been an issue.

[compacta_d]

The way casting the cabal out of yard works you won't actually get the kelpie cast trigger, only the persist trigger.

Still works saccing a zombie or anything else etc.

[ronco]

Good catch, thanks.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would Kelpie be run over a Griselbrand?

[compacta_d]

Good catch, thanks.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would Kelpie be run over a Griselbrand?

Griselbrand is good too. A friend tells me he is a MUST for dredge. I like to keep my options open.

Blue for FOW though.

[WarpWorld]

Griselbrand is good too. A friend tells me he is a MUST for dredge. I like to keep my options open.

Blue for FOW though.

Griselbrand is really really good. A 7/7 flying Lifelink body plus paying 7 life to dredge your whole deck or at least most of it. I don't think he's a MUST but he was the target of choice before spy.

[ronco]

I'll give Kelpie a shot, despite being skeptical. Dumb as it sounds, I'm generally trying to avoid a combo finish just to have some diversity in my decks (my other combo decks are faster anyway).

+1 Cabal Therapy (4)
-1 DR (3)
-1 Nether Shadow (3)
-1 Bloodghast (3) (unless there are other suggestions - may trim a flayer instead since this will churn through the deck quickly to find it)
+2 kelpie. (2)

Well see how that works. I don't have/run FOW so no need to keep the blue count up in the event it doesn't really work out. But, if it gets my bridges in the yard and more narcs in play, cabals to flashback for tokens, I'll be a happy dredger!

[Echelon]

If you don't need blue cards for FoW just go w/ the Balustrade Spy build. DR Balustrady Spy = I win this turn, DR Kelpie = I might win next turn. It's the fastest and most efficient route to victory.

[ronco]

If you don't need blue cards for FoW just go w/ the Balustrade Spy build. DR Balustrady Spy = I win this turn, DR Kelpie = I might win next turn. It's the fastest and most efficient route to victory.

I agree 100%.

BUT, overrunning with the horde sounds fun too. I'm going to run with that for a bit and just see where it takes me.

[shawn_low]

Figured I'd give this one a bump. A Manaless list went 6-0 in the last legacy challenge and finished 3rd.

Spicy tech included 1x Sandwurm Convergence in the SB, likely for the SnT matchup.

List in the link below.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-10-09

[Echelon]

It's a Spy list. The Convergence is just some nice trolling, or b/c they didn't have a second Ashen Rider.

It works fine if you have it, but that's a rather big if.

[shawn_low]

It's a Spy list. The Convergence is just some nice trolling, or b/c they didn't have a second Ashen Rider.

It works fine if you have it, but that's a rather big if.

That's correct. 2x would be a better number but Ashen Rider is overall better. 1 of each for extra flavor and style points perhaps.

[Marina_]

Coming back to Legacy, I sold all my playsets (kept 1x of each card for Commander though), so I had to choose a cheap deck, but powerful



// 60 Maindeck

Aggro (18)

4x Bridge from Below
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Nether Shadow
3x Prized Amalgam

Disrupt (7)

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Chancellor of the Annex

Engine (15)

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp

Enablers (12)

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith

Late Game (8)

1x Ashen Rider
2x Balustrade Spy
4x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound

// 15 Sideboard

15x Island

I'm going Fearless because I was never comfortable with sideboarding in Dredge, and this deck is even worse at it than its brother.
There is subtle balance to achieve between Shambling Shell / Chancellor of the Annex / Nether Shadow / Prized Amalgam. You want to play them all but there are only 12 spots for them, so 3x of each it is.
You need Shambling Shell because you can't play the deck with less than 15 dredgers.
You can't get rid of your creatures because you want to reanimate stuff ASAP and trigger your Bridges as often as you can.
You can't quite play without Chancellor of the Annex or you get wrecked by a lot more of fast decks, plus it's another Dread Return target, powerful against Storm.

[Final Fortune]

Just cut Gitaxian Probe and run sets of four, you'll practically never resolve Gitaxian Probe vs any Island deck.

[Marina_]

Just cut Gitaxian Probe and run sets of four, you'll practically never resolve Gitaxian Probe vs any Island deck.

The deck is too slow without. You really want to set off with an additional dredge on your turn 2. I guess having it often countered is the price to pay to better the non-U match-ups.

[Echelon]

The deck is too slow without. You really want to set off with an additional dredge on your turn 2. I guess having it often countered is the price to pay to better the non-U match-ups.

Most non-blue (non-combo) MUs are pretty good, since they can't counter your combo finish.

[Atherion]

I rebuilt the deck as well, 14 dredgers, SB looking like this:

4x FOW
4x leyline of sanctity
3x faerie macabre
3x sickening shoal
1x progenitus

Can't wait to play it at a live event, most fun I had in mtg was with this deck, ppl around confused or appalled. :-)

[JackaBo]

The deck is too slow without. You really want to set off with an additional dredge on your turn 2. I guess having it often countered is the price to pay to better the non-U match-ups.

I would rather get rid of some DR targets. Chancellor is in itself a fine DR target and I wouldnt go home without 4.

[Echelon]

I would rather get rid of some DR targets. Chancellor is in itself a fine DR target and I wouldnt go home without 4.

It's tricky though. DR -> Balustrade Spy = I win this turn. DR -> Chancellor = I will probably win in a couple of turns. That "I win"-button lets you steal a lot of games (and yes, I know, Chancellor gives you a fighting chance in your really poor MUs, I'm aware. There's just so little space and so much one would want to run).

[KoomZog]

// 60 Maindeck

Aggro (18)

4x Bridge from Below
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Nether Shadow
3x Prized Amalgam

Disrupt (7)

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Chancellor of the Annex

Engine (15)

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp

Enablers (12)

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith

Late Game (8)

1x Ashen Rider
2x Balustrade Spy
4x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound

// 15 Sideboard

15x Island

I would do this:

+1 Prized Amalgam. This little guy is awesome and does everything you want to do. It's a powerful recurring threat that is "Terminus proof". With Amalgams in the deck, the Miracles players never get a good window to play Terminus, something always sticks to the board. Also, Amalgams help you with the combo finish.
Dread Return targeting Flayer of the Hatebound, Flayer trigger deals 4 and all your Prized Amalgams trigger, sac Flayer to any sac outlet (Cabal Therapy or another DT), Flayer comes back with an undying counter and deals 5, end of turn 4x Prized amalgam enters the battlefield and Flayer triggers deal another 12 damage. That's 21 total.
Just make sure you sac any Amalgams already on the board before Flayer comes back the second time.

-1 Ashen Rider. Not super useful in the main. Reasonable sideboard card vs SnT decks, but still not awesome in my experience.

I play a blue version with Whirlpool Rider instead of Balustrade Spy. I cut 1 Bridge, Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell and Dread Return for some FoWs, but most or all of them should probably be in the board. I've been experimenting a bit since I got them.
You can totally get away with 3 Dread Return. I find I very rarely want all 4. You don't need to DT anything after the Flayer if you play 4 Amalgams, see above.
Also, you don't really need 15 dredgers. I've tried as few as 12 and it works, but would be comfortable with 14.

One last thing, not related to your list. I read about a handy trick in another thread, using Cabal Therapy and Surgical Extraction. I don't know if it has been mentioned here.
If you Cabal Therapy your blue opponent and they respond with Brainstorm, let it resolve, then with CT still on the stack Surgical their Brainstorm (or any other card) and get perfect information for your CT.

[Marina_]

I would do this:
...
-1 Ashen Rider. Not super useful in the main. Reasonable sideboard card vs SnT decks, but still not awesome in my experience.
...
Also, you don't really need 15 dredgers. I've tried as few as 12 and it works, but would be comfortable with 14.



thanks for your advices. I keep Ashen Rider MD because I don't bother with a SB, and sometimes, sometimes, SOMETIMES you just encounter that random Lands deck with Glacial Chasm MD which nullifies you. It's a last resort card to solve these kind of problematic permanents in G1.

I don't agree with less than 15 dredgers. More than one time I've kept a hand with only 1 Shambling Shell and it turned good. We all know that the logic is 1 mulligan = 1 Timewalk for your opponent. Shambling Shell maybe only put 3 cards into the GY, but in this case has a good probability to hit a bigger dredger. Anyway even after 2 turns of Shambling Shells you'll end up with the same amount of cards in the GY than with 1 turn of GGT (= 6). The math is on the side of Shambling Shell and with my list I never mulligan.
It's also primary ammunition for Ichorids.

[Echelon]

@Marina: If I ever were to replace a Shell (I'm on 15 dredgers as well) I'd probably replace it with a 4th Spy, since that'll make the combo finish slightly more consistent whilst still serving as Ichorid food. But that's pretty much the only trade I'd be willing to make.

[Final Fortune]

On average the deck is faster without Gitixian Probe than with it since Gitxian Probe isn't a creature to activate Nether Shadow. As far as Shambling Shell is concerned, I think a lot of people don't understand that even if the deck can goldfish with 12 Dredgers it can't win without 16 Dredgers vs any form of hate post-board. Redundancy is the deck's bread and butter, it's as simple as that.

[KoomZog]

On average the deck is faster without Gitixian Probe than with it since Gitxian Probe isn't a creature to activate Nether Shadow.
I'm not so sure about that. Getting Nether Shadow in play faster might mean more really fast wins, but I still think the average win is faster with probes than without them.
My Probes often set up strong T3s.


...even if the deck can goldfish with 12 Dredgers it can't win without 16 Dredgers vs any form of hate post-board. Redundancy is the deck's bread and butter, it's as simple as that.
"Can't win" is quite the exaggeration. If you are referring to targeted graveyard hate such as Surgical Extraction, I find opponents usually go for my Ichorids, not my dredgers. I've won plenty of sideboarded games with 12 dredgers. I'm still not saying it's optimal and I'm playing 14 now, but noone benefits from statements like "it can't win". Let's try to keep the discussion a bit more nuanced. :)

[ahg113]

Playing in a monthly tomorrow, 1st time in a real real long time (part way through Khans, stopped before they banned top, then stopped because team italia was sad).

Crazyness, have a horde way mode moar with Ashen ghouls, vampires, salvages, and transform sideboard with led's and faithless looting. I don't even remember the drugs I took to make this pile.

Anyhow, a friend told me that there is less gy hate, and I should expect splash hate from reanimator (mainly surgical). That and there is a bunch of drs out and about. Looking for an update on the scene and what can be recommended for manaless, non-spy.

I have the whirlpool riders and FoW options.

What are the decks to expect? What is a thing, not a thing? Playing in the Philly/Maryland area, expect blue, combo, tri-color good stuff decks. Aiming for .500 or better, more to hang out.

Best sb options?

Thanks for any help.

[Echelon]

Good luck tomorrow. Don't forget to grace us with a report!

[slave]

As far as Shambling Shell is concerned, I think a lot of people don't understand that even if the deck can goldfish with 12 Dredgers it can't win without 16 Dredgers vs any form of hate post-board. Redundancy is the deck's bread and butter, it's as simple as that.

"Can't win" is quite the exaggeration. If you are referring to targeted graveyard hate such as Surgical Extraction, I find opponents usually go for my Ichorids, not my dredgers. I've won plenty of sideboarded games with 12 dredgers. I'm still not saying it's optimal and I'm playing 14 now, but noone benefits from statements like "it can't win". Let's try to keep the discussion a bit more nuanced. :)
I'm mostly with FF on this one, redundancy is the word here.:wink:
That said, 15 was the number I settled on, but I would shave that to 14 postboard dependant on the opponent.
I've played Manaless a lot over the years, from green to blue to all-in fearless versions, including during the time when DRS first emerged and was quickly adopted by a lot of decks.

(All IME & IMHO) I find 12 dredgers to be optimistic, if we're talking postboard against any possible opponent. If we're expecting our first dredger to hit the yard without being removed, fine, 12 could work, but this deck can't mulligan. If we're expecting to face any deck packing DRS, ScOoze or any other repeatable extracting effect, we're going to run out of dredgers in hand to pitch to the grave fairly quickly, and I wouldn't bet on Wraith or Phantasmagorian being there to save the day.

[WarpWorld]

So I played manaless to a 5-2 record at a 78 man 1K yesterday which was good for 13th. I played a typical list with 14 dredgers, 2 Balustrade Spy, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 3 Dread Return and 4s everywhere else. My sideboard was
4 Force of Will
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Contagion
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider

I played the following
Rd 1 esper blade 2-0
Rd 2 D&T 2-0
Got lucky here.
Rd 3 Lands 0-2
This still feels like a terrible match up every time I see it. Fast 20/20 s and instant speed bogs are rough.
Rd 4 Elves 0-2
Another poor match up game 1 I was a turn to slow and game 2 I kept a solid hand that had everything and he opened with 2 Leylines. Good match.
Rd 5 Sneak and Show 2-1
Rd 6 mono R stompy 2-1
Rd 7 RUG delver 2-1
Game 3 was crazy and I can only blame a long day. He led on trop. delver.* I followed by discarding troll. He revealed brainstorm attacked for 3 played mongoose missed a land drop and passed. I dredged in to narcomeaba, Amalgam and Therapy and other stuff.I decided to cast the Therapy. He told me I need to name something and I told him that naming is on resolution. He tanks and let's it resolve. I name brainstorm and see 3x brainstorm, daze and fluster. Sometimes you win the lottery and they don't counter your spells. At that point the race was on. He ponders into land and I trade with goose. He rips and plays monkey. I trade the monkey and keep doing the dredge thing. I dread returned to get his fluster and Therapied the daze for the combo at 4 life. I misplayed my combo turn by blanking on the 4th amalgam in hand. Thankfully I noticed before my last one game back on my end step to set up lethal on his end step. I did gave him an extra draw step to find a burn spell but he didn't and he died on his end step to my last amalgam.

[Marina_]

So I played manaless to a 5-2 record at a 78 man 1K yesterday which was good for 13th. I played a typical list with 14 dredgers, 2 Balustrade Spy, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 3 Dread Return and 4s everywhere else. My sideboard was
4 Force of Will
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Contagion
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider


Congrats on your great result
Can you give more details about your post-SB games?
And aren't 2 Leyline of Sanctity either 2 too much or 2 not enough?
What did you side out to enter your Forces of Will?

[ahg113]

Top Deck Games, NJ, 12/3/17
31 people (5 rds, cut to top 8)
3-1-1 (8-4) Finished #8, in the money

About a year give or take a month since I last played organized magic. Went with my tried and true. Last iteration of the deck I had was a horde mode, salvages, bloodghast, ashen ghoul, silliness. Had an LED, faithless looting SB, crazy talk. Oh, and my DCI number was locked/closed/invalid- so I got a temporary one. Have sadz, need to fix.

Changed to a more traditional blue package.

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
2 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Dread Retrun
4 Bridge From Below
4 Gixtaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Ensaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
2 Disrupting Shoal


I was very fortunate to play against favorable match-ups and against opponents unfamiliar with manaless (all but one opponent choosing to play after they’ve seen the deck and taken a loss.) The deck felt good, but I didn’t really face any adversity, which is the point of zigging when others are zagging.

Rd 1 0-0-1
Morgan – Eldrazi White
G1 - He won the roll, played
Reveal a chancellor from opening hand. He pays 1 for a Chalice on 0. He does 8 damage to himself with Ancient Tomb. I had a slow go of it, chumping with Narcos and Shadows for a good bit of time. He had an Eldrazi Displacer, Blade Splicer and Golem attacking me. I finally found my combo pieces and returned a Flayer, then 4 Prized returned EoT to finish the game.

G2 – He opted to play
This time he got there, his dudes were bigger than my dudes. I had slow dredgers (Thugs and Shells) but they couldn’t find any guys. He added a TKS to a board with Thalia, H-C and I was quickly dead thereafter.

G3 – I opted to draw, he mulled to 5
He wasn’t happy with his hand, but he drew and played a T2 Thalia, G-T, pretty pretty good. We trade chumps back and forth, I swing with a narco and icky’s. He misplays on something because he thought a street wraith was a bridges. The Round goes to turns, he has me at 9, he’s at 10, and I’ve finally slowplayed built a large army to kill him on board but the game ends. I forget at what point, but there was an opportunity to kill Thalia at one point, and I mistakenly don’t take it. Round ends in a draw.

Rd 2 1-0-1
Jason – 4c Control

G1 – He played
This was a slow burn game at first, Snappy swings at me, a narco & shadow at him. He thoughtseized a narco on the first turn, which slowed me down a good bit. I got him down with an icky/narco/shadow. Finally found some combo pieces, Whirlpooled twice in one turn (4 & 2 draws) but found no Flayer, however, did amass an army so he conceded as he was down to two having fetched twice looking for answers.

G2 – he opted to play, mulled to 6, Chancellor revealed
He opened with fetch – U.Sea, Thoughtseize target me. Before I flip my hand over, I remembered the chancellor, so that spell was countered. Game begin in earnest, he surgicals an icky, then in quick form as I’m shuffling, cast Snappy and looks to surgical GGT, but that’s blanked by a Street Wraith. He kinda goes on tilt after that. The rest is kinda normal, his interactive cards have little to interact with, and I make an army to sing for the win.

Rd 3 2-0-1
Anthony – Nic Fit
G1 – He payed, mull 6
I have a lot of gas to start, two probes and a S.W. He starts with a Veteran Explorer and swings for one. I use the probes and flip a chunk of the deck. Naturally flip the Flayer, use S.W. to get a tad more gas, between icky, narco and shadow attacks, two flayer triggers, and a returned Chancellor just because for the win.

G2 – He played
I have a probe in hand. He attacks with an E. Witness, that succumbs to a Pharaoh trigger. I attack with an icky. Then return a Flayer, set up for the kill on my next turn. On upkeep two shadows, two icky,on dredge two narco triggers, then my eot two Prized triggers from Flayer for the win.

Rd 4 2-1-1
Peter – Beserker Infect
G1 – He played, Mull 6, Chancellor reveal
Gosh darnit, someone who is stupid fast, has countermagic, not playing by conventional rules.
I cast a G.Probe, which he daze’d. I almost got there, turn before he won, cast a therapy which he FoW, got him down to 1 with attacks over two turns. He b’stormed into 2nd pump spell to put game away, a blight agent with invigorate + beserk, die with 11 poison.

G2 – I put him on the play
This is the first game I SB, taking out 2 Phanta, DR, Flayer, and two other things for the 6 counterspells, all for naught.
I just die really fast, b. agent for 1, then I take 8 poison the next turn, and am dead on board after an unimpressive dredge, died on turn 4 or 5. Kinda wish the counterspells were creature removal, but it doesn’t really matter.

Rd 5 3-1-1
Mark – Bombardment
This was a very fun game. Mathematically I wasn’t dead to going top 8, but didn’t expect it. Played this game loose and with fun.
G1 – He played
Never really got started in this one. I cycled a S.W., but took beats to carrion feeder, bloodghast, collective brutality and zombie tokens. Am slightly worried because he’s familiar with the deck (a friend of his plays it) and he’s very sharp with the bridge triggers.

G2 – I put him on the play, mull 6
I sideboard out 3 Chancellors to
I just have sooo much gas in the opening hand, Christmas land type – 3 probes and a S.W. I just go off on my turn flipping chunks of my yard with the g.probes. Takes about 3 turns, and I finally get Flayer and a scoop to the triggers. Only self-inflicted damage to me.

G3 – He puts me on the play (first time all day)
I have 2 probes in hand
He’s making tokens, nuking my Bridges, game is going back and forth, has a Bombardment in play, making use of a Bloodghast. He gets me down to 7 at the end (4 damage self-inlficted), I swing with a prized and shadow to take him down to 14, then my next turn I start to get silly with the combo bits, my opponent checks my yard for the appropriate number of dread returns and targets then concedes, math and triggers are hard on everyone. Whew!

So I get up from the table, watch a few other games finish, then my ride is asking if I’m ready to leave. I want to pick up some singles, so I stick around for a tad, but the store is busy, no free person to assist. Go back to the tourney to just check top 8, and lookie lookie, I made it. The other 7 had already decided to split before I reenter the room. Part of me is wanting to be a dick and go, “Well, I didn’t agree to split.” But that’s bad karma, and I’m on Manaless dredge, so the karma points are important and shouldn’t be squandered. Besides, $125 > $30+$30(paid my buddies entry too).

All in all, a good time. Most of the hate seen was Surgical Extractions, most times players didn’t have it in game (1 hit on Icky, 1 blanked by S.W.). The NicFit player also had containment priest. Got lucky with my match-ups, avoided DRS all day by dumb luck. Speaking with a Red Stompy deck, he had Leylines of the Void, would’ve been bad with the resistors as well. Top seed was playing Miracles, also saw Reanimator with a high seed, Punishing Jund and Dark Maverick. Unsure about the last two decks.

Time to spend some store credit on a Tiny Leaders deck just because and maybe step away for another year.

[WarpWorld]

Congrats on your great result
Can you give more details about your post-SB games?
And aren't 2 Leyline of Sanctity either 2 too much or 2 not enough?
What did you side out to enter your Forces of Will?

Thanks. Sure from memory and my poor notes. Esper blade had turn 1 spell bomb which I was able to play though with opening thug and troll. D&T had Priest game 2 and I had the contagion. I swung twice and DRed a Flayer for lethal. Lands is a bad match up with MD bogs which is why I want Leyline and I might go back to 3. Surgical might still be worth it. Elves had LoTV which we are cold to. Sneak Show didn't show me any real hate and I lost game 1 to a punt. Red Stompy has natural hate for us in 3ball and bridge. I lost game 1 here as well when he led on Bridge and not 3ball. I got to cast therapy and my gut said 3ball but I named something else and he had 3ball which shut me out. I got him to 5 before he could empty his hand. Games 2 and 3 I had FoW as interaction. I think I just trimmed numbers like shadow, shell, bridge, maybe a spy or 2 for ashen rider as well(not 100% on this). I do a lot of sideboarding on feel and I don't always cut the same cards. Play and Draw matter here and I have been know to cut Chancellors in some number on the draw for forces. I think the only matchup I saw where I boarded out all 4 was D&T because I would rather have FoW. Blue count does matter and I don't always bring in all 4 because as others have said "redundancy" is the key and over boarding is a thing. I am still not sure how I feel about Surgical but it felt good so far. I will probably change my board for the next event. Vengeful Pharaoh is probably is the weakest card because doesn't do enough. It is good and makes people think twice before attacking once they have seen it. I have gotten Thalias and such with it but I think Dakmor Salvage might be better for this if we can stop RiP. I am also not sold that we need the FoWs because I have had just as much success with out them as with them. Before the pitch forks come out I am not leaving home with out them but as others have said so many options and so many spots. I feel like we have a lot of strong sideboard options available to us and it comes down to what we want to fight.

@ahg113 congrats.

[GoldenCid]

Thanks. Sure from memory and my poor notes. Esper blade had turn 1 spell bomb which I was able to play though with opening thug and troll. D&T had Priest game 2 and I had the contagion. I swung twice and DRed a Flayer for lethal. Lands is a bad match up with MD bogs which is why I want Leyline and I might go back to 3. Surgical might still be worth it. Elves had LoTV which we are cold to. Sneak Show didn't show me any real hate and I lost game 1 to a punt. Red Stompy has natural hate for us in 3ball and bridge. I lost game 1 here as well when he led on Bridge and not 3ball. I got to cast therapy and my gut said 3ball but I named something else and he had 3ball which shut me out. I got him to 5 before he could empty his hand. Games 2 and 3 I had FoW as interaction. I think I just trimmed numbers like shadow, shell, bridge, maybe a spy or 2 for ashen rider as well(not 100% on this). I do a lot of sideboarding on feel and I don't always cut the same cards. Play and Draw matter here and I have been know to cut Chancellors in some number on the draw for forces. I think the only matchup I saw where I boarded out all 4 was D&T because I would rather have FoW. Blue count does matter and I don't always bring in all 4 because as others have said "redundancy" is the key and over boarding is a thing. I am still not sure how I feel about Surgical but it felt good so far. I will probably change my board for the next event. Vengeful Pharaoh is probably is the weakest card because doesn't do enough. It is good and makes people think twice before attacking once they have seen it. I have gotten Thalias and such with it but I think Dakmor Salvage might be better for this if we can stop RiP. I am also not sold that we need the FoWs because I have had just as much success with out them as with them. Before the pitch forks come out I am not leaving home with out them but as others have said so many options and so many spots. I feel like we have a lot of strong sideboard options available to us and it comes down to what we want to fight.

@ahg113 congrats.

No benefit with fow? Interesting...What about unmask?

[Echelon]

No benefit with fow? Interesting...What about unmask?

I will not run less than 4 in my Spy list SB.

[GoldenCid]

I will not run less than 4 in my Spy list SB.

How should a spy list side look like?

4 Unmask
X contagion / shoal and...?

[scottpou]

How should a spy list side look like?

4 Unmask
X contagion / shoal and...?

You can't forget about Faerie Macabre and Ashen Rider. They are great running multiple copies. I have 1x Progenitus in my board for the painter decks in the local meta.

EDIT: This is if you're running the Spy non-blue list! My blue list and board is different.

[GoldenCid]

You can't forget about Faerie Macabre and Ashen Rider. They are great running multiple copies. I have 1x Progenitus in my board for the painter decks in the local meta.

EDIT: This is if you're running the Spy non-blue list! My blue list and board is different.

Yeah i am about to return the format after years. Maybe 3.

My MD looks like:

15 dredgers (3 shambling) all foil :P
4 wraith
4 return foil :P
4 therapy
4 ichorid
4 shadow
4 amagalm
4 moebas
1 macabre
3 rider
4 bridges
4 ghorian foil :P

NO probes...should i include them?

SB

3 unmask
2 macabre
2 contagion
4 fow
2 blue shoal
2 ashen rider

I think probes worth. My fear is the mulligan rate. In goldfishing i almost have 0 mulligan rate thx to dredgers at opening. However the strenght of probe for going off in your turn makes me to consider it.

Could you help?

[Echelon]

@GoldenCid I'll look up my SB in the morning. I'll get back to you with that!

[GoldenCid]

@GoldenCid I'll look up my SB in the morning. I'll get back to you with that!

Thx a lot!

[Echelon]

No problem!

Here's my full 75:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

Contagion to deal w/ DRS/Contagion Priest, Unmask to nab Rest in Peaces and probably vs. Storm. Mindbreak Trap doesn't need explaining, I think. Vengeful Pharaoh you board in for the fair MUs. People hate attacking into that and sometimes even DRS/Surgical that instead of something that matters.

The most important thing with the Spy list though is knowing when not to sideboard, at all. Some decks have such a hard time dealing with your main game plan it's hardly worth it to dilute that (and sometimes speed also is you biggest ally. Kill them before their hate kills you). The first card I board out generally is Gitaxian Probe.

[GoldenCid]

That list rocks!! THX! However i am very used to chancellor...tight choice probe vs chancellor..

Off course trap does not need explanation, but it is always and only useful agaist storm right?

Dont you prefere raider effects instead of pharaoth effects? Is it just relevant in your meta?

[Echelon]

I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since. If I were to make a cut for Chancellors, it'd probably be Probe. Chancellor is very, very good. But so is a Time Walk that makes my Therapy hit 100%.

As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.

Vengeful Pharaoh is just funny as hell :laugh: (and actually works perfectly fine without the help of other cards, which I really like).

[GoldenCid]

I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since. If I were to make a cut for Chancellors, it'd probably be Probe. Chancellor is very, very good. But so is a Time Walk that makes my Therapy hit 100%.

This is a predicament for me. On one side i use chancellor as time walk and DR target as well. On the other you are right that probe allows you to cast therapy for a 100%! Let the test bring the answer.


As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.


This is f*ck*ng true! You conviced me for spy (which i own all foil :P)

[slave]

I dropped Chancellor when Prized Amalgam came out and haven't really looked back since
This.
I played Manaless just recently, blue list, my main very similar to yours. I went 4-1, losing out to Death & Taxes c/o Rip/Helm combo. Pretty happy with that result! :laugh:
I run 2x Flayer main (-1 Amalgam), just in case someone extracts my GGT's, as I wanna win on the same turn I resolve my first DR (Waiting a turn & attacking with zombies isn't where I wanna be).
Side; I'm running 3x Faerie Macabre (instead of VP) as Reanimator, Dredge, Lands & other grave decks make an appearance more often than I'd like.


As for Rider effects, here's the thing. When I can resolve Dread Return, why shouldn't I just go for the win? The same holds true vs. Sneak & Show - drop Spy, flip your library, Progenitus becomes your library and you kill them the following turn. Sure, I lose some ground vs. Omni-show, but the odds of you actually having the Rider in hand when they Show and Tell for Omniscience are slim at best.
I ran Whirlpool Rider & Whirlpool Drake extensively for approx. a year or so to test with Force of Will
Overall I liked them. I favoured Rider due to the synergy with Disrupting Shoal (think RiP etc.) but in the end Spy won me over.
Spy just works, and whilst it's an all-in, you can win on that turn, whereas Rider doesn't always offer that.
I think it's a stronger option than Griselbrand, given Spy does nothing for an opponent using Reanimate etc.


Vengeful Pharaoh is just funny as hell :laugh: (and actually works perfectly fine without the help of other cards, which I really like).
Yeah you're right. I drove a Berzerk/Infect player nuts last year running VP.
He sat there bitching through the game that I was playing a stupid deck. I agreed. :wink: Would've been great if I'd won that match to rub it in, next time! :laugh:


My thoughts on manaless dredge currently;
After playing every version of Manaless I've read about online, I think Spy is not only the better option for such a glass-cannon deck like this, it's also the most reliable win post-Dread return. All other versions still have the chance of letting their opponent snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Whereas if you resolve a Spy, you should win right there and then without needing to wait a turn, should they not extract critical pieces.
IMO - If you let your opponent take a turn after you resolve your 1st DR, (without experiencing any hate) you're doing it wrong.

[Echelon]

Spy is nice and simple. It does nothing fancy, but is the most efficient and surefire way to get the job done.

And the kicker for Spy is that when you run Progenitus there aren't enough Surgicals in the world to extract all the critical pieces. They either die to the combo right then and there or they die to a flood of beaters the following turn (if they somehow manage to stop your combo). I love this deck :laugh:

I've both 3-0, double draw to top 8'd and 0-5'd with it, by the way :laugh:.

[perian]

NO probes...should i include them?

SB

3 unmask
2 macabre
2 contagion
4 fow
2 blue shoal
2 ashen rider

I think probes worth. My fear is the mulligan rate. In goldfishing i almost have 0 mulligan rate thx to dredgers at opening. However the strenght of probe for going off in your turn makes me to consider it.

Could you help?

If you really what to use FoW out of the board, you have to maximize the blue card count in the deck. In that situation Gitaxian probe is a must imho.

[WarpWorld]

I ran Whirlpool Rider & Whirlpool Drake extensively for approx. a year or so to test with Force of Will
Overall I liked them. I favoured Rider due to the synergy with Disrupting Shoal (think RiP etc.) but in the end Spy won me over.
Spy just works, and whilst it's an all-in, you can win on that turn, whereas Rider doesn't always offer that.
I think it's a stronger option than Griselbrand, given Spy does nothing for an opponent using Reanimate etc.

My thoughts on manaless dredge currently;
After playing every version of Manaless I've read about online, I think Spy is not only the better option for such a glass-cannon deck like this, it's also the most reliable win post-Dread return. All other versions still have the chance of letting their opponent snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Whereas if you resolve a Spy, you should win right there and then without needing to wait a turn, should they not extract critical pieces.
IMO - If you let your opponent take a turn after you resolve your 1st DR, (without experiencing any hate) you're doing it wrong.

I have been playing manaless for a solid 2+ yrs now as my regular deck and have played it all and I agree that spy is the best at killing in one turn. We should only have to cast 2 DR to win. The first on spy and the second on flayer. We should be able to say "go" let the Amalgams enter and kill our opponent. This is given that we have swung for some amount of damage which isn't hard to do.


Spy is nice and simple. It does nothing fancy, but is the most efficient and surefire way to get the job done.

And the kicker for Spy is that when you run Progenitus there aren't enough Surgicals in the world to extract all the critical pieces. They either die to the combo right then and there or they die to a flood of beaters the following turn (if they somehow manage to stop your combo). I love this deck :laugh:

I agree it is simple but a smart player will let spy resolve and extract your DRs in response to narco triggers and sink your ship. Yes you get to untap with a TON of guys and hopefully be able to swing for a win but it isn't a guarantee given Snapcasters and the cantrip cartel.


If you really what to use FoW out of the board, you have to maximize the blue card count in the deck. In that situation Gitaxian probe is a must imho.

I don't think FoW dictates success with the deck but I am going to keep them in the board as they are very good when they work. Gitaxian Probe is good at what it does and helps generate faster kills and should have a spot in the deck blue count aside.

[Echelon]

I agree it is simple but a smart player will let spy resolve and extract your DRs in response to narco triggers and sink your ship. Yes you get to untap with a TON of guys and hopefully be able to swing for a win but it isn't a guarantee given Snapcasters and the cantrip cartel.

Let them. Progenitus, handsize, Cabal Therapy and Phantasmagorian don't care :laugh:. Even if it takes a few turns, I will get there :laugh:

[slave]

...We should only have to cast 2 DR to win. The first on spy and the second on flayer. We should be able to say "go" let the Prized Amalgams enter and kill our opponent. This is given that we have swung for some amount of damage which isn't hard to do.
A single flayer & 4 PA's entering at the endstep is 16 damage. Sac Flayer to Therapy before the end-step, for an extra 5.
I'm not arguing with you. PA has changed how we combo.
I used to use 2 Flayers before PA arrived too (DR 1st Flayer, sac 1st to DR for your 2nd Flayer, sac 2nd to last therapy = 27 damage).
But;
If we can cast 1 DR, there's a 99.9% chance we can use multiple, if not all of them.
The reason I run 2x Flayer of the Hatebound still, is so won't necessarily need GGT, therapy targetting Flayer, damage to the face or even our main combo piece in Spy. I run into Surgical Extraction & DRS more than any other hate pieces, I've had Spy exiled plenty of times. Spy & GGT seem to be the popular picks. Playing against people who understand this deck can be tough. 2 Flayers just gives me a better chance of finding one should Spy be exiled.

[Darklingske]

Took the deck to a FNM last friday. It went great (NOT)! I ended 0-3.
R1 against Foodchain. G1 I dredged for 24 but never saw a DR or a Cabal. Lost to an infinite Ballista. G2 he drops Leyline T0.
R2 against grixis delver. G1 awesome dredges and T2 it ended for him. G2 T1 DRS, T2 surgical on DR, T3 Nihil Spellbomb. G3 about the same, but spellbomb instead of surgical.
R3 against D&T. G1 dredge some, win some. G2 dredge some, in response to Cabal flash in Containment Priest and protection with Mom against Contagion. G3 T2 RiP.
Well, better luck next time...

[Echelon]

Sucks, man! It happens though. Better luck next time!

[easysantiago]

R1 against Foodchain. G1 I dredged for 24 but never saw a DR or a Cabal.

Brutal.

[Cyrus]

Folks, I'm returning to Magic after quite some hiatus (stopped around 2011 and I'm returning since last year, played mostly modern until now) and I'm really interested in joining the Dredge train. I bumped onto this list at MTGTop8, do you guys reccomend it? I'm asking because the primer is a bit dated, I have no idea if relevant stuff changed in this meantime. Link: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17152&d=306119&f=LE

One of the things I noticed is that it does not run FoW in the SB, and that'd help me in the beginning being more budget-friendly than the pitch version. Is this also viable or are FoWs just superior in every aspect of the deck? Thanks a lot in advance, it's been a little tough trying to find my way around hate cards and online matches alone in this wilderness called Legacy.

[Echelon]

Nope, don't recommend it. Cutting dredgers for Chancellors is a bad idea. You shouldn't go below 15 dredgers, it's just asking to shoot yourself in the foot. If you want to keep it budget friendly, just go with a standard Spy list.

[GoldenCid]

I had a couple of games at a local store with heterogeneous results. The deck is unique indeed. I used an identical list than echelon except for -4 probe + 4 chancellor.

Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

2 revent silence
4 nature claim
2 Green fetch
1 forest
3 contagion / shoal
3 unmask

Comments are pretty welcome

[WarpWorld]

Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

2 revent silence
4 nature claim
2 Green fetch
1 forest
3 contagion / shoal
3 unmask

Comments are pretty welcome

The answer is others have,(myself included) and I would rather have a sideboard with cards that do things. In your example there are not enough green sources to reliably cast your green spells. 4 fetch 2 basic plus 4 dryads main is what most people were playing before we PA and we had a density of blue spells for FOW. I like the idea of trying to be proactive when it come to hate instead of reactive. Granted you need to have the cards in your opening hand but that's the risk we take. All I can say is test it out for yourself and see what you think.

[ahg113]

I had a couple of games at a local store with heterogeneous results. The deck is unique indeed. I used an identical list than echelon except for -4 probe + 4 chancellor.

Going home i was thinking about if the dryad + removal pack is tested enough.

The deck performs well in a general manner agaist most deck except those which run leyline, cage or rip. Shaman is a minnor issue.
Most cards used to deal those cards (fow, unmask, shoal) must be there when opponent cast them. At cost of -2 cards in hand and a reduction of DDD potential with persisting risk of a second top deck.

Dryad - removal pack although unestable is reactive. Survives to a resolved hate card.

I am thinking on a side like this (with an equal MD except for -4 chacellor + 4 arbor)

2 revent silence
4 nature claim
2 Green fetch
1 forest
3 contagion / shoal
3 unmask

Comments are pretty welcome

Typically, that plan hasn't been successful, it verges too close to attempting to play 'not-magic' & 'magic' in the same game. Dryad's, green suite was a thing when we were playing Grizzlebrand. We've moved off one of the derpiest I win creatures and the green suite at roughly the same time. I would personally not go back to that. The deck is very meta-dependant, sometimes it just rolls over and dies, leyline of the void, RIP.

Removing so much stuff to get the green suite in dilutes the deck.

However, if you are really interested in testing, I advise a hoarde moar approach, using darkmor salvages in combination with riftstone portals, bloodghast, etc. It's more in tune with the deck, fights taxing effects. Sprinkle a dryad or two for variety of sources. But try to stay as true to being unconventional, that is the decks strength.

[slave]

Typically, that plan hasn't been successful, it verges too close to attempting to play 'not-magic' & 'magic' in the same game. Dryad's, green suite was a thing when we were playing Grizzlebrand. We've moved off one of the derpiest I win creatures and the green suite at roughly the same time. I would personally not go back to that. .... Removing so much stuff to get the green suite in dilutes the deck.
I used to play this green version back before RiP, Cage & DRS got printed. From memory, Hollywood and a few others put a fair bit of time into it.
I can't say that this plan doesn't have merit, because it clearly does - my argument against it is simply that this sideboard idea isn't consistent or reliable, which is a problem given it clearly dominates the sideboard.
That said, it's not all bad - Dryad Arbor in the main can be quite useful.

[Echelon]

@GoldenCid: I agree with the others on the green SB. Too many things have to line up perfectly for it to be useful while costing you a lot of valuable SB space. The chance of you having a manasource + the card you need in hand are too low to be considered viable. And your odds for pulling it off get even worse when your opponent is playing blue (i.e. Daze/FoW/other counters).

[jolssoni]

Putting a spy list together at the moment, thinking about something like this:
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Vengeful Pharaoh
SB: 4 Sickening Shoal
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

I thought about 4 Unmasks in the board so you could discard turn 1 when they put you on the play in game two, but the plan works less than 50% of the time with the no mulligans and all that and I can't see the card doing work vs Rest in Peace. DNT just jams it before you can go off and UWx blade decks can leave it on top off Ponder/Brainstorm or just jam it t2 as well. Has anyone ever had good experiences with proactive Unmasks before getting to discard?

Do you board out Chancellors vs Grixis Delver to dodge a sure Cabal Therapy?

[slave]

Putting a spy list together at the moment, thinking about something like this:
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Nether Shadow
3 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return

Do you board out Chancellors vs Grixis Delver to dodge a sure Cabal Therapy?
Personally I've never played Chancellor VS Grixis, so I can't answer that one as well as some here.
I used to run the card years ago. I kinda feel Amalgam & Chancellor are vying for the same spot.
Not saying you shouldn't, but I would want a full 4 DR & Shadow no matter what else.

IME VS Grixis, our bridges won't last 2 seconds. They play Surg & DRS - we have Phants & Wraith, so we can race.
Racing is the hard tho if they're running discard (stopping us dropping card #8 in the yard).
That said, all of their creatures are 2 toughness or less - Delver, DRS & Pyro are all vulnerable to Contagion if you get past counter.
Contagion is better than Sickening Shoal.
Personally, I'd include all the creatures you can, side out bridges & consider siding in 3 Vengeful Pharaoh or Contagion.

[jolssoni]

Personally I've never played Chancellor VS Grixis, so I can't answer that one as well as some here.
I used to run the card years ago. I kinda feel Amalgam & Chancellor are vying for the same spot.
Not saying you shouldn't, but I would want a full 4 DR & Shadow no matter what else.

IME VS Grixis, our bridges won't last 2 seconds. They play Surg & DRS - we have Phants & Wraith, so we can race.
Racing is the hard tho if they're running discard (stopping us dropping card #8 in the yard).
That said, all of their creatures are 2 toughness or less - Delver, DRS & Pyro are all vulnerable to Contagion if you get past counter.
Contagion is better than Sickening Shoal.
Personally, I'd include all the creatures you can, side out bridges & consider siding in 3 Vengeful Pharaoh or Contagion.

I feel without Chancellor you run the risk of losing to the most common t1 play in the format more often than necessary. If you don't have Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian+multiple dredgers or Chancellor to timewalk you just lose if they eat your discard every turn. It's also a great DR target if you need to do something with low resources under pressure from DRS or in a hurry vs Storm without a Spy in the yard.

Siding out Bridges seems really leftfield, can anyone else speak for this? I was thinking more along the lines of -3 Spy -1 something (Flayer most likely) +4 Shoal, maybe -1 something +1 Pharaoh. Even 1-2 free bears can do work in the matchup if they don't land TNN or Angler.

You might be right about the Contagion, although Sickening Shoal can theoretically kill a 3/3 - 7/7 Scavening Ooze and a Containment Priest carrying a sword. Most importantly there's a foil :cool:

[Echelon]

I feel without Chancellor you run the risk of losing to the most common t1 play in the format more often than necessary. If you don't have Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian+multiple dredgers or Chancellor to timewalk you just lose if they eat your discard every turn. It's also a great DR target if you need to do something with low resources under pressure from DRS or in a hurry vs Storm without a Spy in the yard.

Siding out Bridges seems really leftfield, can anyone else speak for this? I was thinking more along the lines of -3 Spy -1 something (Flayer most likely) +4 Shoal, maybe -1 something +1 Pharaoh. Even 1-2 free bears can do work in the matchup if they don't land TNN or Angler.

You might be right about the Contagion, although Sickening Shoal can theoretically kill a 3/3 - 7/7 Scavening Ooze and a Containment Priest carrying a sword. Most importantly there's a foil :cool:

I've succesfully Unmask-ed RiP on my T1s, so it can absolutely work.

As for boarding out the combo kill - why would you? Often times your best bet is to race your opponent (i.e. assemble the combo kill before they find the hate you can't beat) and your combo is the easiest way to do that.

I do love me some Chancellor, but I don't know if I'd want it over Gitaxian Probe. Chancellor in the best scenario prevents you from dying for a turn, Probe puts you closer to winning.

[Atreyu]

Hi everybody,

it is my first post here but I'm reading you since long time and playing the deck online for a while now.
I've always played the Balustrade Spy version of the deck, but today I got my playset of Force of Wills :smile: and wanted to mount a list with the "blue package".

I'm thinking about this list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-a-big-week-of-results), played by Sean Brown at the end of 2016 (you can read about the tournament report here (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/58xxqq/manaless_dredge_melbourne_tournament_report_2nd/)).

I just modified it a bit, but nothing special:
// 60 Maindeck
// 40 Creature
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Whirlpool Rider

// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below

// 4 Instant
4 Force of Will

// 12 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe


// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Chancellor of the Annex
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Vengeful Pharaoh

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Contagion
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Unmask

I just wanted to know what you think about it, if you think I should modify something and similar. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks, have a nice one.

[slave]

...today I got my playset of Force of Wills :smile: and wanted to mount a list with the "blue package".
3 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Nether Shadow
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will

Congrats on getting the FoW's!
I feel Shadow is one of the better cards in this deck as it enables Dread Return consistently. I always run 4.

I've been playing the blue list for ages, feel free to go thru the old Manaless thread for lots of analysis.
There's different ways of playing it IME.

Some insist that FoW should only ever be in the side, as they dilute the main, I think this is mostly true. I've tried/tested FoW in different numbers in the main and side for ages. IME, FoW can definitely be useful in the main, however I don't think they're necessary.

When it comes to combo - I think you need at least 3 Rider. I prefer more Rider than less, so you can safely exile one via FoW if you need to.
Bear in mind Whirlpool Drake is a better version of Rider, but whether you play them or not depends how useful you find D-Shoal to be.
Mindbreak Trap is a good side option for the blue side too.

[Echelon]

Mindbreak Trap is a good side option for the blue side too.

Mindbreak Trap is good in any Manaless SB :wink:

[Atreyu]

Congrats on getting the FoW's!

Thanks! It was since a long time I was planning to buy them and at some point I had the possibility and decided to do it. :wink:



I feel Shadow is one of the better cards in this deck as it enables Dread Return consistently. I always run 4.

By deciding to have the FoWs in the main I had to cut something to find the space for them and I decided to put them in the Shambling Shell/Nether Shadow slots. Actually I don't know what else to cut to find the two slots for the Nether Shadows. Maybe I can cut a Chancellor of the Annex and put it into the SB but I would then prefer to use this slot to add one more Whirlpool Rider as you suggested.



Some insist that FoW should only ever be in the side, as they dilute the main, I think this is mostly true. I've tried/tested FoW in different numbers in the main and side for ages. IME, FoW can definitely be useful in the main, however I don't think they're necessary.

I know, FoW can dilute the main and this can increase the mulligans percentage but I have the feeling that I'm a bit more "protected". They work even better when I side-in the Disrupting Shoals. Are you suggesting to replace the Shoals with the Mindbreak Traps?

Thank you for your answer and your suggestions. I'll take them into consideration.

[GoldenCid]

Indeed i felt that FoW is not necesary as a main card. The decks wins almost every 1st game.
Last night i had a small tournament (8 bodies) and faced not 1, not 2 but 3 deathrite shaman game 1!
The deck took its time but finaly raced them.

One thing i noticed was that i always wnated chancellor x 4 each game. Even postboard. I faced BUG, Reanimator and deadguy (with leyline game 2 and 3, :mad: )

I´m not sure if this is correct. i always cut 1 shambling, 1 return, 1 phantasmagorian, 1 proggy (if it wasnt show and tell, otheriwse i cut shadow).

My list was like echelon´s one but with chacellor instead of probes.

And side was:

4 Unmask
4 Blue trap
2 contagion
2 black shoal
3 macabre

Another thing i felt was that i wish i had Fow in the side; to be reactive.
For example, in the deadguy 2nd match i went for un mas expecting rip. When we started the game i had unmask in the opening but i hesitate aboiut playing it beacuase probably rip would not have been in my opo hand in that moment. I wandered: Is this the right moment for casting unmaask?
Just a feeling

On black shoal: the only mutch up i felt i was over contagion was when i wondered: "Could i have killed that elesh norn if i would have sideboard shoal in?"

[slave]

Are you suggesting to replace the Shoals with the Mindbreak Traps?
Not specifically, no.
If you're keen on FoW I suggest you try out all sorts of side options, see what is useful for you.
I play against a lot of white decks myself, so RiP is expected in these MU's. I hardly ever see Cage anymore.... anyone else find this too?

[WarpWorld]

I think we need chancellor as we have so few ways to "interact" with our opponents. It makes them play our game by forcing them to trade it for a card or resource, as it functions like a timewalk. It's always better on the play and it comes out for force of will in most matchups. But it's very good at what it does with all the Deathrites running around. I should be on a mix of 75 at scg Worcester so keep up the discussion. How has the Mindbreak trap been working out for people?

[Final Fortune]

Probe over Chancellor has always been a mistake without FOW MD, and I don't even think FOW MD is the best choice so there's really no reason to play Probe.

[Echelon]

How has the Mindbreak trap been working out for people?

The only time I managed to cast one was when I wasn't on Manaless. The times I did board it in I simply didn't have it or my opponent had the discard beforehand. Having said that, I would still never make a Manaless SB without a full set. It's a very high reward card if you do manage to pull it off.


Probe over Chancellor has always been a mistake without FOW MD, and I don't even think FOW MD is the best choice so there's really no reason to play Probe.

That sounds like a bit of an epiphany. I guess I'll have to try it out the next time I get to play MtG. MD Chancellors over Probes.

[easysantiago]

That sounds like a bit of an epiphany.

Agreed! Probe has always been my default choice.

[Echelon]

Agreed! Probe has always been my default choice.

Has been so for me as well. Looking forward to testing this.

[GoldenCid]

I think we need chancellor as we have so few ways to "interact" with our opponents.

So...you wouldnt side it out?

[WarpWorld]

So...you wouldnt side it out?

I do board them out. I also think that it is subjective. I play FoW irl but not online(for the most part) and I board differently when not playing a blue board. IRL I tend to board them out for FoWs. I also tend to board them out more if I am on the draw in post board games vs. keeping them in on the play. This I also think can be match up dependent. I think that it is at its strongest when we get put on the play as it effectively steals back the draw for us.

I have been doing a lot of testing lately with and with out FoW. I haven't tested a probeless list yet but I will. I do think we want to maximize on 'free' cycling effects to be as explosive as possible. I will say that when blue count doesn't matter it is an easy board out or trim. This deck grinds well.

On sideboarding in general I like trimming numbers and sometimes I cut the combo or go down to 1 spy. I find I win most of my games, even game 1's though combat damage.

I will try and take good notes this weekend and hopefully have a good report for the horde.

"FEAR THE HOARD!"

[Echelon]

Good luck! Looking forward to the report!

[Final Fortune]

IDK in what world people resolve Probe in a deck that is 100% on the draw vs Force of Will and Daze, on average I had slower TTK with Probe than without it because I would get Time Walked by counters and it was a spell instead of a minion for Nether Shadow. I eventually stopped casting it before Cabal Therapy, and then just took it out of the deck altogether. There is no deck in the format that Probe is going to speed you up enough against in order to race them to a combo finish except Elves, so you need to concentrate on beating the decks that you are actually designed to beat and not dropping games to Deathrite Shaman for no good reason.

You aren't winning games because you're playing Probe, but you are losing games because you aren't playing Chancellor. We play this deck because they can't interact with us on the stack, why would you make their counters relevant?

[Echelon]

IDK in what world people resolve Probe in a deck that is 100% on the draw vs Force of Will and Daze, on average I had slower TTK with Probe than without it because I would get Time Walked by counters and it was a spell instead of a minion for Nether Shadow. I eventually stopped casting it before Cabal Therapy, and then just took it out of the deck altogether. There is no deck in the format that Probe is going to speed you up enough against in order to race them to a combo finish except Elves, so you need to concentrate on beating the decks that you are actually designed to beat and not dropping games to Deathrite Shaman for no good reason.

You aren't winning games because you're playing Probe, but you are losing games because you aren't playing Chancellor. We play this deck because they can't interact with us on the stack, why would you make their counters relevant?

Relax buddy, the board is agreeing with you. Us troglodytes have caught up.

[primeform]

Hey guys, great thread here! Just dusted off my manaless dredge deck i built 3 years ago before amalgam was printed. Man it was ugly with dryad arbors and grislebrands. After reading all the threads, goldfishing for a week, and scouring all the mtgtop8 decklists from last year Ive decided on the blue deck with riders instead of spys. Im not a huge fan of the FoW maindeck, but its necessary to have open up your sideboard slots and have some answers to g1 hate. This deck is so tight its hard to decide on 3rd shadow, 4th chancellor, 4th probe, 4th FoW, 4th amalgym. I even considered cutting 1 phanta to get the 3rd shadow in the deck without hosing the blue count for FoW game 1. I would even consider running 61 cards in this deck but with only 12 delvers I dont think thats a possibility. I could see 61 from a spy deck that has a couple extra shambling shells in it. In the end im running DTE / Julians version with 4th amalgam over 4th probe.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Nether Shadow

2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

Im still considering moving 1 chancellor to the side for the 3rd shadow but this current build gives me the most sideboard flexibility. Here are the questions I have about sideboard construction.

3 vs 4 Disrupting Shoal?
2 vs 3 Vengful Pharaoh?
Macabre vs Unmask vs Surgical?
Ashen rider worth a spot?
1 Chancellor side to allow the 3rd maindeck Nether Spirit

SIDEBOARD

3-4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Contagion
2-3 Vengeful Pharaoh

1-3 Faerie Macabre
1-2 Unmask
0-2 Surgical Extraction

0-1 Ashen Rider
0-1 Chancellor


Most of my questions are sideboarding and I think it would be nice to go over each popular matchup and discuss possible sideboard options. Based on MY list what would you sideboard in and out vrs these matchups? I think this discussion could be helpful for everyone.

Delver
Death and Taxes
Eldrazi
Burn

Miracles
Control

Elves
Reanimator
Dredge
Storm
Lands
Dark Depths

[ronco]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Nether Shadow

2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith



I run a fearless version currently (have dabbled with horde mode in the past) and I say for 4 probes or 0. it does you no good in your deck once the dredging starts so you need it in your opening hand to be worth anything. 12 dredges is a bit tight IMO too, so i'd cut them for more of those, if anything.

[primeform]

I run a fearless version currently (have dabbled with horde mode in the past) and I say for 4 probes or 0. it does you no good in your deck once the dredging starts so you need it in your opening hand to be worth anything. 12 dredges is a bit tight IMO too, so i'd cut them for more of those, if anything.

Need the probes for blue count to keep force of will main deck. Also probe is good against anything without counterspells so 0 seems excessive. Also having 3 of versus 4 of maindeck is 31.5 pct versus 40 pct to have it opening hand. I made the hard decision to go with 4 amalgams over 4 probe, but could see an argument the other way. Thanks for the replies about maindeck but for now Im looking for sideboard help based on the 60 I have chosen. I understand the merits of fearless and horde but decided to go with the blue version with 12 dredgers.

[Echelon]

Need the probes for blue count to keep force of will main deck. Also probe is good against anything without counterspells so 0 seems excessive. Also having 3 of versus 4 of maindeck is 31.5 pct versus 40 pct to have it opening hand. I made the hard decision to go with 4 amalgams over 4 probe, but could see an argument the other way. Thanks for the replies about maindeck but for now Im looking for sideboard help based on the 60 I have chosen. I understand the merits of fearless and horde but decided to go with the blue version with 12 dredgers.

We're heavily favored against pretty much anything without counterspells (that isn't fast combo), so you don't need the Probe there. You know you're free to combo out any time and you know you can do it well before the fair decks become a threat anyways.

In the long run you're probably better off just running w/ 15-16 dredgers and a full set of Shadows instead of a set of FoWs.

As for SB'ing, at times your best bet is to not sideboard at all, as speed can be your best bet at beating hate. Boarding is something you should mostly do vs. decks that are faster than you and need to be slowed down a turn or two so you have the time to get there yourself.

[WarpWorld]

@primeform: FOW or Chancellor main not both. Also I agree that 12 dredgers is to low. I would play 14 dredgers at a minimum.

I ended up with a 1-3 scrub at scg. Post thoughts and matchups later.

Edit:
Round 1 storm 1-2
I got game 1 and thought he was on TES because of BW when I Theropied him. Games 2 and 3 I didn't see a single sideboard card and storm is the faster deck sadly.

Round 2 infect 0-2
Game 1 I striped his hand and needed him to not draw a pump spell to win, he drew a probe which found him the pump spell. Game 2 he had turn one cage and I didn't have FoW so game over.

Round 3 elves-ish 2-0
He was playing more of a tribal brew than normal combo elves or so it seemed. Game 2 I had to combo with an essence warden on board which made math fun. I was able to Dr a 40/40 troll with him going to 40 off the warden trigger for exacties which was cool.

Round 4 D&T 0-2
Game 1 he had an early Thalia plus double Mirran Crusader one of which picked up a Sofi,* and I wasn't able to go wide enough in time. Game 2 I forced his t2 Thalia. Which let me cast a Theropy which hit a STP while showing me Crusader and SFM. On his next turn he top decked Containment priest which I wasn't able to answer in time.

On the whole my matchups were a little rough but the deck feels fine. The only card I missed was the third spy, for whatever reason I couldn't find any of the other ones I own and the vendors didn't have any when I looked. The only change would be to add the spy over 2nd Flayer. For reference this is what I ran:

Creatures (45)
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Chancellor of the Annex

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba

14 dredgers

2 Balustrade Spy
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sorcery (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dread Return

Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Contagion
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dakmor Salvage

[Brad the Impaler]

I went to SCG Worcester this weekend and went 6-3 in the Open with Manaless Dredge. I've goldfished the deck hundreds of times and watched a ton of coverage, but I only started playing in real events a couple of months ago. I believe this was my fifth tournament ever, the other four being 20 person FNMs at the local store, so I'm extremely happy with my finish.

This is the list I ran:

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Nether Shadow

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex

Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Progenitus

I decided to run 2 Shells because space seemed tight, though after this weekend I'm going to 3 or 4. 2 Nether Shadows seemed fine, it's an easy flex slot when trying to fill out other things. I went with 3 Whirlpool Riders over Balustrade Spy not only because it pitches to Force of Will, but also because in testing against Show and Tell, Balustrade Spy killed me, and Whirlpool Rider won me the game every time. I like the Chancellor a lot for the obvious opening hand reason, but it was also an excellent DR target in testing. The sideboard is pretty stock blue. I added the Progenitus the night before in the hotel room, because I got this irrational fear of Imperial Painter and older High Tide variants.

My notes weren't great, but I can bring you through some highlights and try to remember as best I can.

Round One vs. Mitch Doyle on Sneak and Show (2-1)

He won the die roll (almost everyone did, luckily). My opening hand had a Street Wraith and some dredgers, good enough. Turn one he fetched for Volcanic Island, Pondered and passed. I'm thinking Sneak and Show immediately. I draw a Chancellor for turn and discard a dredger. Turn two he cantrips again plays Island, cantrips. I opt not to cycle the Wraith because at this point I've seen the red mana, and I assume that he'll be dropping Gris or Emrakul, so I want to be able to dig if he goes the Show and Tell route. I just dredge some stuff to the yard, no Narcos, pass the turn. Turn three he plays a land, taps out and casts Show and Tell. I respond by cycling Street Wraith, whiff on the rider. So I say it resolves, sigh, and put the Chancellor on the table. He flips his card: Omniscience. I laugh as I turn the Chancellor face up. His eyes get a little wide, he looks at his hand, looks at his tapped out mana, and passes the turn. I hit on my next dredge pretty well and manage to kill him turn 3 with some attacks, a DRed Flayer, undying, Amalgams, you know the drill.

I don't believe I sideboarded anything.

Game 2 I don't really have many notes. I had Rider in my opener, so I figured I could possibly win off of that. I probed him, saw Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Island, Island, Brainstorm and Griselbrand. I opted to Therapy the Sneak Attack, because forcing the S&T would be great for me. I got him down to 9 with creatures, found another Therapy for the S&T, and stranded the Gris in his hand. I managed to win pretty easily the next turn with a DRed Flayer and an Undying trigger off of a Therapy.

1-0

Round Two vs. Dylan Hand on Colorless Eldrazi (1-2)

Not much to say about this match. Game 1 I produced too many creatures for him to handle. He never really had good attacks, and I managed to get there on the ground.

Games 2 and 3 he mulliganed to 5 for Turn Zero Leyline. Didn't feel too bad. I accepted that it could happen when I registered the list. Dylan ended up taking 8th place, so congrats are in order for him. Nice guy, played well.

Round Three vs Erik Massack on Goblins (1-2)

I've never played against Goblins before, and I've barely seen coverage of it, so I was completely unprepared. He had the turn one Lackey all three games, Tarfired the right creatures. It wasn't much of a contest.

Game 1: He overwhelmed me with Goblins before I could get the combo online. It was savage.

+3 Contagion
-1 Shadow
-1 Phantasmagorian
-1 Shell

Game 2: I managed to probe him, therapy a Tarfire, Therapy a Pyrokinesis. He cast Surgical Extraction on my Dread Return, but I managed to get there with Prized Amalgam beats.

Game 3: He got a Lackey, Goblin Matron, and got to Goblin Sharpshooter. This was rough, because I wasn't hitting my Prized Amalgams or my Bridges, so it wasn't worth bringing back Ichorids and Nether Shadows. Eventually he ripped a Relic off the top, cracked it immediately, and ran me over.

I have a feeling that I could have won this match, but my lack of experience definitely showed here.

1-2

Round Four vs. Andrew Hanna on Shardless Bug (1-2)

I was starting to get tired and hungry because my matches kept going long, so this was a pretty foggy match for me.

Game 1: I brought the early beats, Therapied a Force of Will from his hand and DRed a Whirlpool Rider, Flayer, Amalgam triggers, easy win.

-4 Chancellor
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Phantasamagorian
-1 Ichorid
+4 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal

Game 2: My notes simply say the word "Cage" and it is underlined.

Game 3: I opened a hand with no sideboard cards, no Wraith, no Phant. He had a turn one Shaman, turn 2 Shaman. I had to discard spells instead of dredgers to play around the shaman, and he started eating those to work on my life total. Eventually I drew into a Phantasmagorian, and managed to get some graveyard action going. At that point my opponent resolved a Night of Souls' Betrayal and started playing Baleful Strix into it to draw a card and nuke my bridges. I kept dredging, he played a Jace and started to Fateseal me, not looking good. I eventually found an Amalgam, and managed to get it into play, but he Abrupt Decayed it and slammed a cage. I know when I'm beat.

1-3

At this point, I figured I'd go for one more round, since I payed the money and came to play some Legacy.

Round Five vs. Lucas Wade on UW Stoneblade (2-1)

Game 1: He got an early Stoneforge, put down a Batterskull, drew into a Jitte, and slowly beat me to death.

-4 Chancellor
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
+4 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal

Game 2: I had double Street Wraith and a Troll in my opener, he never really had a chance. I Cabal Therapied two Forces, reanimated a Whirlpool Rider, and won from there.

Game 3: This was super weird. We played out a kind of long game. He managed to get two Stoneforges, and play a Batterskull and a Jitte, put the Jitte on the Germ token, got in some beats. At one point he used Jitte to kill his own Stoneforge exiling my Bridges. We ended up going to time in this one. On turn zero I DRed a Whirlpool Rider and whiffed on the Flayer. Had to activate Phantasmagorian just to make my hand smaller, and DR another Rider. This time I flipped the rest of my library and found the Flayer. My opponent was at 21, so I cast Dread Return on Flayer, triggered 3 Amalgams (one had been pitched to a Force of Will earlier) and knocked him down to 8. Unfortunately, I had no more Therapies or Returns, so I basically was done. Passed the turn with no cards in my library. At this point my opponent untaps, looks at my board, and casts a Supreme Verdict. Naturally, I perk right up. This kills my Amalgams and Flayer, Flayer undies, triggering Amalgams, and I kill him on his end step. Afterwards he asked one of his friends whether the Verdict was the wrong move. His friend said "Yeah, you should have passed the turn and won."

2-3

Round Six vs. Daniel Rothbart on Colorless Eldrazi (2-0)

Game 1: He TKSed me a couple of times, getting a probe the first time, and a couple of other cards, but I managed to overwhelm him with the hasty zombies, just like Dylan in round 2, and I got there with the beats.

-4 Chancellor
+4 Force of Will

Game 2: He mulliganed to 4, presumably looking for Leyline. Kept a four card hand. He had turn one Mimic, turn two Mimic. On turn three he played a Chalice on Zero with an untapped Ancient Tomb, I have no idea what he was afraid of, but he said he hadn't played much Legacy so he wasn't sure whether that was the right play. I managed to get some beats going. He played a Ratchet Bomb and cast an Endless One for zero to try and nuke the Bridges. I didn't even have to point out the Chalice, because he noticed it the second he put the Endless One on the table. He cracked the Bomb to kill a bunch of zombie tokens, but I managed to Return the Flayer with my opponent at 6, then sac it to a Therapy for the Undying. He shook my hand and wished me luck.

3-3

Round Seven vs. Marcello Mafra on Elves (2-1)

Marcello came all of the way from Brazil just to play in this tournament. He was barely conversational in English, but he was a super nice guy and we managed to communicate well enough.

Game 1: He played a Dryad Arbor, I drew and discarded, he played a turn 2 Glimpse of Nature and played a crapload of elves, passed the turn. I Dredged, probed him, saw a GSZ, dredged some more, never found a Therapy. Turn 3 he cast GSZ for 8 and Crater Hoofed me to death.

-4 Chancellor
+3 Contagion
+1 Zealot

Game 2: He Glimpsed again, played a bunch of elves, drew a bunch of cards, and I managed to kill him with a DRed Whirlpool Rider into the Flayer and Amalgams, it was sweet.

Game 3: He had the Dryad Arbor and the turn 2 Glimpse AGAIN. Small glimpse chain, passed the turn. I was able to probe him (Crater Hoof, Natural Order, Heritage Druid, Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize). I did a little math, and thought it was unlikely that he could top deck and cast Craterhoof (though, most of his deck makes mana, so it's kind of a gamble). I only had one Therapy, so I cast it naming Natural Order, and got in for 9 in some combination. He played out the Heritage Druid, counted his mana for a long time, and passed the turn. I managed to untap with 24 power worth of creatures. I believe I had 7 Zombies, 2 Amalgams, an Ichorid, and a Nether Shadow. I swung with the team, he thought about it for a long time, and extended the hand.

4-3

Round 8 vs. Robert Buck on Death and Taxes (2-1)

Game 1: I don't remember this game too well. I got some Ichorids and Amalgams going, had some bridges in the yard. He cast a Thalia, but it wasn't enough and I ran him over.

-4 Chancellor
-1 Dread Return
-1 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid
+4 Force of Will
+3 Disrupting Shoal
(I was afraid of RiP)

Game 2: He vialed in a Containment Priest, I scooped.

-4 Force of Will
-3 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
+1 Flame-Kin Zealot
+1 Dread Return
+1 Nether Shadow
+1 Ichorid

Game 3: Turn zero Chancellor. He played a land, I discarded a dredger. Turn two he paid two mana for a Mom and passed. I probed on my turn and saw Mom, Stoneforge, Wasteland, Path, and Batterskull. I swung for 10 and therapied his Batterskull and his Stoneforge, getting some zombies. He pathed an Amalgam and asked me if I wanted to search, I laughed aand declined. I managed to hit him for another 8 next turn. He never found anything and scooped at 2 life.

5-3

Round 9 vs. Timothy Candee on UR Delver (2-1)

At this point, there were murmurs that 6-3 might make Day 2, so I was pretty excited about the last match.

Game 1: He fetched for Volcanic, cast Swiftspear and swung. I guessed his deck pretty quickly. I discarded a dredger. Turn 2 he played out a Stormchaser Mage and swung. I dredged unimpressively. Turn 3, I believe he cast a ponder and swung for 4. I laughed at my deck's malfunctioning. I cabal Therapied at some point, missed on the name, and saw Bolt, Price, Probe, Snapcaster, Island. On the second to las turn of the game I cast a Therapy naming Price of Progress. He was still at 16 and I was at 3, so just casting it was enough, but he top decked a spell and I died.

-4 Chancellor
+4 Force of Will

Game 2: He Got some early beats going again, I tried to keep them at bay somewhat unsuccessfully. He knocked me down to 5, and I managed to put a Dread Return on the stack. He Forced it, but I had my own Force, so it resolved. I combo killed him with Rider/Flayer.

Game 3: I had a Street Wraith in the opener, hit well on my dredgers, got some blockers, and combo killed him from 10 life.

6-2-1 ended up being the cutoff for Day 2, so I missed it by a point, but I was pretty happy with that finish. My big takeaways were that I saw virtually no hate in any of my games. Two leylines, a cage, a priest, and a relic across 25 games of Magic. Also, a lot of people didn't quite know how to play against me. I only used the Whirlpool Rider plan a handful of time, I got there with combat and value Flayers quite a few times. Never Dread Returned a Chancellor, and didn't see any of the matchups I run him main for (Storm, Reanimator). I never needed the Progenitus (though it did look pretty sweet in my sideboard the whole tournament). I only cast Force two or three times, never cast a Contagion, never used a Faerie Macabre. I definitely got lucky in my matchup, and I think that a couple of times my inexperience got the better of me.

I'm probably going to add another Shambling Shell, possibly cutting the fourth Chancellor. There were a few games where I had to draw-go and it didn't feel particularly good. Otherwise, the deck felt pretty solid. I look forward to more big events in the future. Thanks for reading everybody!

[primeform]

Awsome job and great report Brad!

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result & nice report!

As for Spy killing you after a Show and Tell, one word...

Progenitus

I've been running one in my MD for several years now and love it :laugh:

[Brad the Impaler]

Congrats on the result & nice report!

As for Spy killing you after a Show and Tell, one word...

Progenitus

I've been running one in my MD for several years now and love it :laugh:

Are you running Forces at all in that list? I'm thinking about cutting Probe for all of the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, so my blue count is looking incredibly suspect. Dropping riders would be the nail in the coffin. Honestly, I only had one counter war all weekend and faced very little hate, so I'm unsure about the blue plan in general.

[Echelon]

Nope, no FoWs for me :laugh:

[ronco]

Need the probes for blue count to keep force of will main deck. Also probe is good against anything without counterspells so 0 seems excessive. Also having 3 of versus 4 of maindeck is 31.5 pct versus 40 pct to have it opening hand. I made the hard decision to go with 4 amalgams over 4 probe, but could see an argument the other way. Thanks for the replies about maindeck but for now Im looking for sideboard help based on the 60 I have chosen. I understand the merits of fearless and horde but decided to go with the blue version with 12 dredgers.

I thought the fow might be an argument in keeping them, but between the amalgrams, narcos, and the riders, you were at 10 non-fow blue cards. I don't do math that well but that seemed like enough to keep the blue count high enough to make forces viable without the probes.

And I wasn't trying to sway you to fearless or horde, was just trying to explain where I had experience (fearless/horde) and where I didn't (fow versions) so you knew how serious (or not) to take my response, haha.

[primeform]

I thought the fow might be an argument in keeping them, but between the amalgrams, narcos, and the riders, you were at 10 non-fow blue cards. I don't do math that well but that seemed like enough to keep the blue count high enough to make forces viable without the probes.

And I wasn't trying to sway you to fearless or horde, was just trying to explain where I had experience (fearless/horde) and where I didn't (fow versions) so you knew how serious (or not) to take my response, haha.

I appreciate your responses! I think alot of this thread is dedicated to discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the fearless/horde/blue versions and not enough about which cards are good in what matchups. I was just trying to direct the conversation to matchup and sideboard discussions that are useful for all 3 versions and specific sideboarding plans for people running force of wills in side or main. I know that everyone in this forum has great info to share from experiences with whatever form of the deck they are running. If we can bring all these ideas together, people will be more efficient with whichever version they decide on. I thought DTEs sideboard post from earlier in the thread was a great example of talk about what matchups each card are strong in and where we should be siding them out.

[easysantiago]

We play this deck because they can't interact with us on the stack, why would you make their counters relevant?

Fire.

[Slick752]

Hey guys, what actually list is?

[P-E]

Kristopher Melby topped 16 the legacy classic this weekend !!
congrats

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119987

[Echelon]

Hey guys, what actually list is?

Well, here's my Spy list for example. The Progenitus isn't necessarily a popular choice, but I really like it.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

@P-E: That SB must be the funniest one ever. It's pretty much does exactly nothing. If you're able to resolve a DR, you should be able to take the game then and there. Not durdle along.

[P-E]

that side is horrible but maybe he went yolo
i should have put 15 relentless rats or something like that in this case haha

[WarpWorld]

that side is horrible but maybe he went yolo
i should have put 15 relentless rats or something like that in this case haha

Right but he has the FOW package for hate and a bunch of fun of DR targets for the other matchups. I would love to know what he was bringing if for different matchups.

[Echelon]

All vanillas. Squires and whatnot :laugh:

[P-E]

Grand arbiter pitches on Fow ^^

[PuppyWuppy]

I've been seeing decks with Progenitus and other big creatures with the shuffle effect going around. I can understand for show and tell match ups but other then that is there any other reason to have those creatures in the main board?

[Cyrus]

I've been seeing decks with Progenitus and other big creatures with the shuffle effect going around. I can understand for show and tell match ups but other then that is there any other reason to have those creatures in the main board?

You win if Reanimator uses Reanimate on your Balustrade Spy targeting you with it's ability. Otherwise you'd deck yourself and die.

[Echelon]

Also, just DR'ing Balustrade Spy then says "I win next turn", since you'll be able to swing w/ 4 Ichorids, 4 Prized Amalgams and 4 Nether Shadows and probably a Narcomoeba or 2 for at least 30 or so damage.

[Bougnat]

Hi,


Please excuse me if I make some mistake in English, I’m French, it's my first post on The source and it’ s not always easy to translate…

I will present you my version of dredge manaless, with some choices witch are not common. I would like first to thank all of you : I decided to play this deck because of this great primer 3 years ago, and the discussion help to increase our level :wink:. I precise I tried quite all existing versions to arrive at this one (balustrade spy, whirlpool rider, shifting wall, black/blue/green reserve, force of will main deck or not …. ).


The list :

14 dredge :
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Grave-Troll)
4 Golgari Thug (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Thug)
4 Stinkweed Imp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stinkweed%20Imp)
2 Shambling Shell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Shambling%20Shell)

8 draw :
4 Street Wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith)
4 Gitaxian Probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe)

16 free creatures+4 bridge:
4 Ichorid (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorid)
4 Nether Shadow (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether%20Shadow)
4 Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba)
4 Prized amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam)
4 Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below)

9 usefull creatures :
4 Chancellor of the Annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?printing=18186)
4 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?printing=1515)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?printing=19460)

7 graveyard spell :
3 Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy)

2 hand free spell :
2 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion)


SB: 1 Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?printing=13824)
SB: 2 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion)
SB: 4 Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?printing=628)
SB: 4 Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
SB: 4 faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre)




No balustrade spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) or whirlpool rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567):

When we play dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true), this mean we have already 3 creatures on board. Most of time, we have done 1 cabal therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true), or we have at least 1 bridge from below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true) in the graveyard. What I want to explain is balustrade spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) or whirlpool rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) are finally orverkill, and make a dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true) on chancellor of the annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?fromqs=true&printing=18186) is enough to win. It s a too big creature for most of the removals, has flying and a condition against storm deck. If you are disagree, please just check before a dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true) how the board is, and if it is not too big for your opponent. This allow us to have 3 free slot in the main deck. I remove also the 4th dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true) to include a playset of Prized amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam) to increase a constant pressure on opponent.
Finally the spy version is more a combo deck with a 2nd plan aggro, and this version is an aggro deck with a second plan combo.



2 contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) main deck :

The “only one” problem we have 1st game is deathrite shaman (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman?fromqs=true). The 2 contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) help us against it and give us 2 free slot in the reserve for the other decks.



The reserve:

2 contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) + 1 sickening shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) : I enter them always against deathrite shaman decks.
4 snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) : they are good against dark depths (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Depths?fromqs=true) and infection
4 force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) : against storm and deck with rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true).
4 faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true): against reanimator, dredge, and lands/loam.



With this list I won a belgium tournament in january (23 players), finish 9th in march (31 players) and made 2 time 2nd on small tournament (14 and 11 players). Actually the metagame is full of grixis, and it is really good for us: it’s a positive matchup, and they generally just put 2 surgical extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) in the reserve. With the ban of sensei’s divining top (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top?fromqs=true), the number of miracle deck has decreased, witch mean also less Rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) in the reserve ! It’s clearly a favorable metagame for dredge manaless actually.

[Echelon]

I'm afraid I strongly disagree. "I win this turn" > "I win in a couple of turns if you don't answer this thing".

[Bougnat]

I'm afraid I strongly disagree. "I win this turn" > "I win in a couple of turns if you don't answer this thing".


It' s clear if you focus only on this aspect, i' m agree with you : win this turn > win in a couple of turns . But removing the spy give you at least 3 free slot. And add chancellor of the annex x4 + prized amalgam x4 also give you more resilience.

As I said, from a combo deck with an 2nd aggro plan here we have an aggro deck with a 2nd plan aggro. Metagame is slower than before, this mean aggro plan is available.

[Echelon]

It' s clear if you focus only on this aspect, i' m agree with you : win this turn > win in a couple of turns . But removing the spy give you at least 3 free slot. And add chancellor of the annex x4 + prized amalgam x4 also give you more resilience.

As I said, from a combo deck with an 2nd aggro plan here we have an aggro deck with a 2nd plan aggro. Metagame is slower than before, this mean aggro plan is available.

Regular Spy lists run Chancellors and Amalgams. They've been on Amalgam ever since it came out and recently swapped Gitaxian Probe in favor of Chancellors, so what's your point? The change you've made basically boils down to swapping out Spies in favor of Probes, which we cut b/c they risk blowouts and are dead in the graveyard.

[Final Fortune]

It' s clear if you focus only on this aspect, i' m agree with you : win this turn > win in a couple of turns . But removing the spy give you at least 3 free slot. And add chancellor of the annex x4 + prized amalgam x4 also give you more resilience.

As I said, from a combo deck with an 2nd aggro plan here we have an aggro deck with a 2nd plan aggro. Metagame is slower than before, this mean aggro plan is available.

Probe is a liability to counters, and while I don't think the combo is all that necessary there isnt really a card with enough utility to take its place unless you want to look at Gigapede.

[primeform]

Hi,


Please excuse me if I make some mistake in English, I’m French, it's my first post on The source and it’ s not always easy to translate…

I will present you my version of dredge manaless, with some choices witch are not common. I would like first to thank all of you : I decided to play this deck because of this great primer 3 years ago, and the discussion help to increase our level :wink:. I precise I tried quite all existing versions to arrive at this one (balustrade spy, whirlpool rider, shifting wall, black/blue/green reserve, force of will main deck or not …. ).



Thanks for this great post Bougnat. Looking forward to exploring your ideas here. Dark Depths has gained in popularity so the bounce tech looks interesting. I would be interested in what cards you are sideboarding out in each matchup as well. Have you tried unmask, pharaoh, or surgical extraction in the sideboard? Congrats on your nice finishes.

[Ronald Deuce]

Just felt like dropping in to say that I went 2–1 with Manaless Dredge on Sunday, and it was a blast. It was my first time playing Manaless at an event (I play LED Dredge sometimes); I wasn't expecting to get the chance to play that day, so I was borrowing the deck. In spite of the fact that I was playing with a four-card sideboard, I managed to beat Lands(!!!) and Elves. I lost to Grixis Delver and lost one in the other two rounds (Leyline and Tabernacle got me), but I think a full sideboard probably would've changed some things. I only ever 'boarded in one card; either Ashen Rider or Iona.

Definitely going to start messing around with a Manaless list. Might see whether it's worth it to incorporate LEDs.

[KoomZog]

I've not been playing legacy in a long time, last time was last summer at a GP side event. I was on the blue version then with FoW, Probe, Whirlpools etc.
With both Gitaxian Probe and Deathrite Shaman banned now, which version would you recommend going forward? DRS ban seems great for us.

[Michael Keller]

With Deathrite Shaman gone, my interest has once again peaked with this deck. Not that it was really a big deal before, but it put a competitive constraint on Manaless because of the card's ubiquity in the format. It wasn't something you intrinsically had to fear, but there was always the possibility that a hand without Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian just folded to any random Deathrite deck in the format.

Otherwise, it was pure gas.

I think this deck will pick up directly where it left off in 2012. Not only is Top gone (to ensure Miracles had the ability to find answers), but now Deathrite is gone, too. Probe leaving didn't really hurt Manaless, because it was just a free accelerator and here and there a pitch card to Force.

I think the time to reinvest is now. People are already kicking up Canadian Thresh talk into high gear, and if that deck starts shooting up the ranks, this was one of the premiere decks in the format to feast on it (like it did during its heyday).

EDIT: I would stick with blue. It's hard to say where Storm goes without Probe, but Manaless can get around its loss with no problem.

[Michael Keller]

Here's what a Summer of 2018 Manaless Dredge list looks like from me:

Manaless Dredge

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Force of Will
[4x] Prized Amalgam
[4x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Leyline of Sanctity
[4x] Disrupting Shoal
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Ashen Rider

...To start. Beware of Crop Rotation and Thoughtseize decks. Leyline of Sanctity is your bread and butter there.

[caprino]

Here's what a Summer of 2018 Manaless Dredge list looks like from me:

Manaless Dredge

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Force of Will
[4x] Prized Amalgam
[4x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Disrupting Shoal
[4x] Leyline of Sanctity
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[1x] Ashen Rider

...To start.

Nice..you write side guide vs tiers decks? Thanks

[Michael Keller]

Sorry, I had to change the list. The new list is posted above (edited).

[caprino]

Sorry, I had to change the list. The new list is posted above (edited).

I think this list is good in New meta post bann shaman

[Michael Keller]

1. You want Faerie main. The amount of Reanimator decks you'll see pop up - at first - will be staggering. This includes Loam strategies, as well. If you look at the lists I've played historically, I always run a pair.
2. You want Leyline of Sanctity. Badly. Crop Rotation and Thoughtseize decks will emerge.
3. Four Force or bust main.
4. Prized Amalgam, the fourth Force and a set of Whirlpool Rider fills out the Probe slot from before.
5. Mindbreak Trap with Leyline (and Force) shores up the Storm match-up as it always does.
6. Expect Stoneforge and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest to show up. This is where four Shoals are needed. You have two-cost spells in other Shoals, Narcomoeba and the full set of Riders (twelve total). That with Force should be enough.

[caprino]

1. You want Faerie main. The amount of Reanimator decks you'll see pop up - at first - will be staggering. This includes Loam strategies, as well. If you look at the lists I've played historically, I always run a pair.
2. You want Leyline of Sanctity. Badly. Crop Rotation and Thoughtseize decks will emerge.
3. Four Force or bust main.
4. Prized Amalgam, the fourth Force and a set of Whirlpool Rider fills out the Probe slot from before.
5. Mindbreak Trap with Leyline (and Force) shores up the Storm match-up as it always does.
6. Expect Stoneforge and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest to show up. This is where four Shoals are needed.
Leyline of Sanctity you side in vs storm and?

[Michael Keller]

Leyline of Sanctity comes in against the following decks and strategies:

1. Discard-centric decks.
2. Burn decks.
3. Storm/Belcher decks.
4. Crop Rotation->Bog decks.

It's going to be so good. I remember how many times that card saved me from getting locked out. Don't underestimate its power; it's probably one of the best sideboard options the deck has.

[Final Fortune]

I see little to no reason to use Chancellor of the Annex or Force of Will anymore, with Deathrite Shaman gone there will be a rise of Reanimator and a fall of Storm.

[Xenio]

I see little to no reason to use Chancellor of the Annex or Force of Will anymore
I aggre with that, Force of will really don't seems relevant in the game 1.

I play a lot versus ANT and I can assure that Mindbreak Trap don't do a trick because ANT have too much discard. Moreover without Probe her discard number will increase.

With the disparition of Shaman, the number of graveyard hate will rise from 3 to 4 or 5 in all sideboard I think. Our worst enemie : Grafdigger's Cage will come back.

[crowe_1]

Do we take this opportunity to up the number of dredgers in the main? At 15 dredgers I still find I have to mull way too often. Can those Probes turn into Greater Mossdogs for higher overall consistency at the cost of speed?

[GoldenCid]

I see little to no reason to use Chancellor of the Annex or Force of Will anymore, with Deathrite Shaman gone there will be a rise of Reanimator and a fall of Storm.

As Michael maentioned above, the rise in rip / priest decks justify fow and/or chacellor

[Final Fortune]

As Michael maentioned above, the rise in rip / priest decks justify fow and/or chacellor

Chancellor of the Annex does nothing to stop Rest in Peace or Containment Priest, the opponent has 12 cantrips to cast into Chancellor of the Annex on turn one for a turn two lock, and neither of those cards are in the MD for Force of Will to counter i.e. there is no reason to MD Force of Will ourselves in order to let them know we are playing Force of Will for game 2. With Storm increasing discard, MD Force of Will has little to no impact on combo and the deck is likely better off with a card like Gigapede, Mossdog, Chancellor of the Forge for a minor increase in consistency or Vengeful Pharaoh to prortect the deck from slow starts vs aggro.

[GoldenCid]

Chancellor of the Annex does nothing to stop Rest in Peace or Containment Priest, the opponent has 12 cantrips to cast into Chancellor of the Annex on turn one for a turn two lock, and neither of those cards are in the MD for Force of Will to counter i.e. there is no reason to MD Force of Will ourselves in order to let them know we are playing Force of Will for game 2. With Storm increasing discard, MD Force of Will has little to no impact on combo and the deck is likely better off with a card like Gigapede, Mossdog, Chancellor of the Forge for a minor increase in consistency or Vengeful Pharaoh to prortect the deck from slow starts vs aggro.

i`m sorry to disagree. maybe you are right about chacellor but whta if our opponent knows we run fow? Players know that manaless run it.

Do you suggest replace that slot with pharaoh, gigapede and so on?

[ahg113]

Sooo, anyone else wanna get crazy and do the Hoard Moar thing again? I remember playing this back in 2016 shortly after Prized Amalgam came out, and it was fun to play. Resorted back to a more typical blue Whirlpool Rider/Fow deck lately. There was talk about this back around page 21, little before, little after.

Need to figure out what to do with those g.probe slots, but with DRS gone, less bodies to get eaten from the yard. I do expect there to be an uptick in Cage decks, but RIP will likey still be in the expected decks (D&T, Miracles).

Deck I last played with first posted by mistercakes:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
2 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Nether Shadow
2 Ashen Ghoul
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ichorid
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bridge From Below
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Thinking about adding a Therapy +1, Shell +2, Ashen +1 to replace the G. Probes. And scrapping the LED sb (because those cards are in another deck) for +4 FoW, +4 Faerire, +1 MB Trap, +3 Contagion

// Legacy - Manaless Dredge Horde Moar

// LULZ

// 60 Maindeck
// 47 Creature
4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
2 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Shambling Shell

// 2 Enchantment
2 Bridge from Below

// 4 Land
4 Dakmor Salvage

// 7 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre

// 11 Instant
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 3 Contagion

[Atreyu]

Hi everybody,

ahg113 I liked the last list you posted, I'm going to give it a try. I never played with Dakmor Salvage, so I'm curious to try it. Actually, after the ban of Gitaxian Probe I felt a bit lost. I'm going to replace it with something else also on my other list with Balustrade Spy, the fearless one; I still don't know how.

Looking at the list, I have a couple of questions:

The plan against Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace is Force of Will, am I right?
Why only 2x Bridge from Below?
Is Vengeful Pharaoh main mainly for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Containment Priest?
Is Iona, Shield of Emeria so important?

Thanks for your attention.

Happy dredging to everybody!

[GoldenCid]

I'd run macabre md

[WarpWorld]

I don't think the ban of probe effects us that bad as a lot of people started playing probeless manaless a few months ago. I have been on a clean spy list lately.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex

4 Balustrade Spy
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion

I would change the sideboard up now that Drs is gone but the maindeck is solid.

[Echelon]

I run the same MD -1 Flayer, +1 Nether Shadow. No FoW SB though.

[C4Ctu5]

Hi fellow dredgers!

Before talking about an important card of the deck (or not!) aka Shambling Shell and introducing a list which I think could be relevant in the new Legacy metagame following the bans of Death Rite Shaman & Gitaxian Probe, I would like to start my first post on The Source by thanking Michael Keller for having been so far one of the biggest contributors to Manaless Dredge, and kind of a Personal Tutor for myself thanks to his numerous and valuable inputs over the years on this forum.

Thanks a lot Mr Keller, and please don't be too rude if I turn out to be wrong or incomplete on a few points :)


The card I would like to specifically discuss about is Shambing Shell. To be short, it is in my opinion not relevant enough and we shouldn't play it anymore.

Let's see why we play it:

The main reason in my opinion: to prevent us from taking mulligans and therefore timewalking us ;
To increase the redundancy of the apparition of dredgers when we dredge ;
To increase the number of black creatures in our deck in order to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow.



1. What is the real impact in terms of preventing us from taking muligans?
With only our 12 basic dredgers (Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp & Golgari Thug) in a 60 cards list, we have 19,06% of chances of having no dredgers in our starting hand. With the same list and 4 Shambling Shell on top (16 dredgers in total), we end up with 9,92% of chances of having no dredgers.
The difference is more or less 10%. Only 10%. These 4 slots in your 60 cards list will only be relevant 10% of the time (again, just in terms of muligans), aka when you will have a starting hand composed of one Shambling Shell or more and no other dredgers.
It's actually even less if you consider the following: in this range of 10% of our games when we take a muligan because we would not be playing Shambling Shell, we get another 80,94% of chances (actually a bit less because we draw only 6 cards) of hiting one of our dredgers. If we get a Golgari Grave Troll, we catch up our Time Walk: Turn1 pass turn discard Shambling Shell Turn2 dredge 3 cards Turn3 dredge 3 cards VS Turn1 Time Walk Turn2 pass turn discard Golgari Grave Troll Turn3 dredge 6 cards. Of course that's considering you don't hit another dredger with you first dredge 3, and keeping a hand thanks to Shambling Shell also gives you the opportunity to draw a better dredger as a 8th card, but even a Muligan + Stinkweed Imp almost equal these games in which we start with two dredges of 3 cards.
To summarize: regarding decreasing our chances of taking a muligan, Shambling Shell is relevant in less than 10% of the times. And this is if we play 4 of them. The impact is of course greatly lowered for 3 or less copies.

2. What is the real impact in terms of dredgers redundancy?
Because of my limited skills in maths I won't be able to provide you with proper percentages here, but to the question "how many dredgers do I need in average to flip my entire library?", my answer remains 4 Golgari Grave Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp & 4 Golgari Thug, period. That's 4x6 + 4x5 + 4x4 = dredge 60 in total for a 60 cards list. Convenient isn't it?
For sure adding Shambling Shell increases your chances to not fizzle on a dredge, but here too the impact is not relevant enough. We never saw Shambling Shell in a Land/LED Dredge shell and I think that's because our 12 basic dredgers already provide a sane base in terms of dredgers redundancy. Of course Land/LED Dredge has more ways of discarding their cards in hand (although vulnerable to permission), but we play Phantasmagorian and have more opportunities to pass turn/discard/dredge.

3. What is the impact regarding the number of creatures in the deck?
When it comes to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell is first of all only helping in Manaless Drege lists than run Whirlpool Rider. Because the other versions run Griselbrand and/or Balustrade Spy as Dread Return targets and/or Dryad Arbor.
But even in U Manaless Dredge lists, we got Prized Amalgam meanwhile which decreases the impact of the long time played Shambling Shell regarding feeding your recursive creatures.

Personaly I'm not playing Shambling Shell anymore for years now, and years ago I placed 9th in a 100+ players Legacy event with a Manaless Dredge list including 12 dredgers. Not to show off, just to say that 12 dredgers can make you go through a 10 matchs Legacy event.

@Mickael Keller: we already got the opportunity a couple of years ago to talk about Shambling Shell on Cockatrice and I think your position has evolved taking into account the last list you have posted here and which includes only 1 Shambling Shell. Get rid of the last one!


And now the list I propose you and hope to get some feedbacks about:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Dryad Arbor

3 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Whirlpool Rider
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal

SB:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nature's Claim
5 Forest

The idea is that, although we lost Gitaxian Probe in the process, we don't fundamentally need anymore the 12 cards (Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith & Phantasmagorian + 2 dredgers) which were preventing us to be hard locked by a DRS on turn 1.
In another hand, we should expect a bit more of hard lock graveyard hates aka Graffdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest & Leyline of the Void. We could afford to lose a few games (and possibly matchs) to a few occurrences of these cards, but what now if they become more frequent?

The U Manaless shell remains the most optimal in my opinion and can notably fight Rest in Peace & Containment Priest thanks to Disrupting Shoal & Force of Will. But with the loss of Gitaxian Probe we have less chances to counter a Graffdigger's Cage (by double-timewalking ourselves if played on turn 1 anyway) and still lose to Leyline of the Void. Plus one of the deck which we should face even more often will be Death & Taxes, who can protect their Rest in Peace & Containment Priest with a Thalia which prevents us to play our spells, and can even cheat Priest and Thalia through Aether Vial and/or Cavern of Souls.

If you add to this the possible come back of Tempo T. and more generarily of Daze (which fights well our permission strategy), maybe the time has come for us to come back to Mana :D And that's also the point of this list: the 5 Forest in sideboard are not only there to support your 4 Nature's Claim, but also there to fight Tempo T. & co. (Daze) and Death & Taxes (Thalia). In these matchups cutting the Dread Return plan gives you room for sideboarding. And mostly because they are there for D&T and TT, I play Forest and not Bayou which could oppen us to casting Cabal Therapy.

Of course the 5 Forest cost you a lot of slots, and that's notably why the list evolved this way: -1 Nether Shadow (balanced with 3 Dryad Arbor and 2 Prized Amalgam) and -1 Phantasmagorian (no DRS around anymore). No more Shambling Shells for the reasons stated above and most of all Disrupting Shoal Main Deck. Which are still relevant with FoW on Games 1, because there are always threaths to our slow departures. And Shoal also compensates the Faerie Macabre MD by staying relevant in a wider range of matchups.

You can go up to 8 lands post side when relevant, and have 18 blue cards MD for FoW and Shoal. I would have prefered Reverent Silence to Nature's Claim but for now I will stick to the later because I want to probe the amount of Graffdigger's Cage around. We will suffer colateral damages from Reanimator for sure. And Nature's Claim will also help in Death&Taxes matchups to destroy Aether Vial on top of RiP. Leline of Sanctity is there for the reasons explained by Michael Keller above and Leyline of the Void are there to fight Reanimator & Loam decks but also Land/LED Dredge who will come back and still is one of our worst matchups.

[perian]

I don't think the ban of probe effects us that bad as a lot of people started playing probeless manaless a few months ago. I have been on a clean spy list lately.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex

4 Balustrade Spy
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion

I would change the sideboard up now that Drs is gone but the maindeck is solid.

How do you support FoW with that low blue count? I really have had problems with 16 blue cards in the total 75.

Has it worked out for you?

[Atreyu]

1. You want Faerie main. The amount of Reanimator decks you'll see pop up - at first - will be staggering. This includes Loam strategies, as well. If you look at the lists I've played historically, I always run a pair.
2. You want Leyline of Sanctity. Badly. Crop Rotation and Thoughtseize decks will emerge.
3. Four Force or bust main.
4. Prized Amalgam, the fourth Force and a set of Whirlpool Rider fills out the Probe slot from before.
5. Mindbreak Trap with Leyline (and Force) shores up the Storm match-up as it always does.
6. Expect Stoneforge and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest to show up. This is where four Shoals are needed. You have two-cost spells in other Shoals, Narcomoeba and the full set of Riders (twelve total). That with Force should be enough.

Hi Michael, thanks for the list, it looks round and solid!

What about Grafdigger's Cage? I expect some of them too. Should we rely only on Force of Will?

[Michael Keller]

Grafdigger's Cage is no more than a one-of in almost every sideboard. It augments the Surgical Extraction plan to combat decks like Elves and Zenith/Order. There are four Forces in the deck. I wouldn't waste time sideboarding for one card. Force gives you a clear shot at fast combo and works well with the other blue cards in your deck. It's still a flex spot, but I run it.

[WarpWorld]

How do you support FoW with that low blue count? I really have had problems with 16 blue cards in the total 75.

Has it worked out for you?

It has worked out fine for me so far. It's our only out the cage now that probe is banned and we can't counter it with Shoal. I don't always bored in all four if I'm boarding in other things in the matchup. That all being said we generally don't see more than the top 8 cards of Our Deck anyways. I'll probably start running more blue Shoals now that rest in peace should see more play.

[vieko]

Your list is running great on MODO @MichaelKeller :)

I'm gonna try the following based on what I've encountered on 3 leagues (3-2, 3-2, 4-1):


4 Faeries MB: tons of Reanimator / Fins (UB, RB, Depths and Magus)
3 Mindbreaks on SB (-1): One match vs Storm (won)
4 Shoals on SB (unchanged): D&T with Remorseful Cleric is a pain
1 Vengeful Pharaoh MB: Scooze main on Stifle decks (with Relic SB)
4 Forces to SB: have not needed them MB on G1 (yet)


16 HORDE
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

14 DREDGE
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

8 DISRUPT
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faerie Macabre

8 DISCARD / CYCLE
4 Phantasmagoriam
4 Street Wraith

4 DRAW
4 Whirlpool Rider

4 TO FIELD
4 Dread Return

4 ZOMBIES
4 Bridge from Below

2 TARGET
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Flayer of the Hatebound


SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap


:)

EDIT: maybe the Pharaoh is not that great... maybe

[KoomZog]

Hi fellow dredgers!
Hi!

Interesting read, well written. I'd like to discuss a few points.


With the same list and 4 Shambling Shell on top (16 dredgers in total), we end up with 9,92% of chances of having no dredgers.
The difference is more or less 10%. Only 10%.

Losing a full turn 10% of matches seems like a big deal to me, and something that will affect our win rate negatively. The 4 cards replacing Shambling Shell hopefully makes up for that, but I wouldn't say 10% is no big deal. It is.


To summarize: regarding decreasing our chances of taking a muligan, Shambling Shell is relevant in less than 10% of the times. And this is if we play 4 of them. The impact is of course greatly lowered for 3 or less copies.

The first copy of Shambling Shell makes the most difference, and each one consecutive one adds less chance of having a dredger in the opening hand. So it's not a 0 or 4 decision, 1-2 Shambling Shells can absolutely be worth it.


When it comes to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell is first of all only helping in Manaless Drege lists than run Whirlpool Rider. Because the other versions run Griselbrand and/or Balustrade Spy as Dread Return targets and/or Dryad Arbor. But even in U Manaless Dredge lists, we got Prized Amalgam meanwhile which decreases the impact of the long time played Shambling Shell regarding feeding your recursive creatures.

It helps more in U lists, not only in U lists. Also, I would much rather exile a Shambling shell and get Ichorid + Prized Amalgam on the board, than exiling the Amalgam.


Personaly I'm not playing Shambling Shell anymore for years now, and years ago I placed 9th in a 100+ players Legacy event with a Manaless Dredge list including 12 dredgers. Not to show off, just to say that 12 dredgers can make you go through a 10 matchs Legacy event.

Congrats on the finish! I only ever placed well in one big legacy tournament, lost in the semis in a 60-70 person tourmament. That was just before Prized Amalgam came out, I was on the Balustrade Spy version then.
The thing is, a single good finish in a tournament really doesn't say much about a deck. The sample size is just way too small. Still an impressive finish, good job. :)

I saw your list and I will present my own, and explain why I play it this way.

Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Shambling Shell

Explosive Starts, also Surgical Protection
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith

Free Creatures
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Bridge from Below

Combo finish
4x Dread Return
4x Whirlpool Rider
1x Flayer of the Hatebound

General Protection
4x Force of Will
4x Cabal Therapy

GY Hate / Surgical Protection
2x Faerie Macabre

Sideboard
1x Ashen Rider
4x Disrupting Shoal
1x Faerie Macabre
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
3x Vengeful Pharaoh

I would never go below 4 Phantasmagorian and 4 Prized Amalgam. The opening hands of Phantasmagorian, Street Wraith and a dredger are just way too good. Dredging 5-6 in their 2nd turn 2nd main phase, finding a Narcomoeba and triggering 1-2 Amalgams that were dredged/discarded to Phantasmagoria is great. That play also makes the combo finish faster. It doesn't happen all the time obviously, but I'd rather maximize my chances of a fast start in a deck like this.
The sideboard will of course vary with meta etc, but this is where I'll start after DRS is gone.
Playing all 4 Prized Amalgams also help with blue card count. Losing Probe sucks, as it helped counter Cage specifically (with Shoal) and stuff in general (with FoW) but I think we still have enough blue sources, especially after boarding.
I will not play any Shoals in the main. I should probably not even have all 4 FoWs in the main, since it's mostly a dead card. I might switch them for some of the sideboard cards or add some more Shambling Shells, Faeries or Balustrade Spies to the main deck.

Happy Dredging!

[Bougnat]

Hi,


I play Manaless as all of you and it' s great to share the ideas! :wink:
If I compare the different list, 54 card on the 60 Main deck are always the same. And the last 6 cards + the 15 from the side are a mix of cards from a common list . My aim is to show we are agree on most of the cards, and to concentrate on the possibility to acheive our list . To sum :

54/ 60 Main deck :

14 Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Grave-Troll)
4x Golgari Thug (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Thug)
4x Stinkweed Imp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stinkweed%20Imp)
2x Shambling Shell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Shambling%20Shell)

8 Explosive Starts
4x Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?printing=1515)
4x Street Wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith)

20 Free Creatures
4x Ichorid (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorid)
4x Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba)
4x Nether Shadow (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether%20Shadow)
4x Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
4x Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true)

8 Combo finish
4x Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
3x Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567)
1x Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)

4 General Protection
4x Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true)



Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
4x Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)
4x Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true)

Cards witch will be in the side :
4x Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825)
2 x Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401)

Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401)
4x Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true)
4x Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true)
1x Ashen Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ashen%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=21953)
1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732)
0-4x Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true)

Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
3rd-4th Shambling Shell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Shambling%20Shell?fromqs=true)
4th Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567)



Personnally I have decided :

54 cards main deck as above
+4 mishra's bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
+2 Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
It's the solution I found to replace gitaxian probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe?fromqs=true) and make the "same effect". It's a bit less powerfull than the original but work however.

side :
4x Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)
4x Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true)
4x Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825)
3 x Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401)
Nothing original :smile:

From my point of view, the place of Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) and Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) will be a question of metagame. If reanimator/dredge will be extremely present, Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) will be automatically included MD. And this card work also against land.... For Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true), we will be happy to find them MD if deck as show and tell will be present.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Leyline of Sanctity comes in against the following decks and strategies:

1. Discard-centric decks.
2. Burn decks.
3. Storm/Belcher decks.
4. Crop Rotation->Bog decks.

It's going to be so good. I remember how many times that card saved me from getting locked out. Don't underestimate its power; it's probably one of the best sideboard options the deck has.




Excuse me, I haven't played Legacy for a while, but I still own my Manaless Dredge. However, I can't see how Leyline is any good.

Let's assume we win G1, and our opponent isn't completely braindead.

-> They let us begin
-> We have Leyline in our OP7 and play it.
-> we now have 6 cards in our hand.


That means our opponent has 3 full turns, doing whatever they want and we can begin to dredge at turn 4 earliest without Street Wraith.

We don't have any "drawacceleration" so I really can't see where a card like Leyline is any good for us besides burn. :eyebrow:

[perian]

I have read the discussion about how many dredgers the deck needs and so on. Some years ago I made some calcs for me, maybe they help someone else too to get to the right number of dredgers in their 60.

https://i.imgur.com/vlHyWL7.png

[Xenio]

I have read the discussion about how many dredgers the deck needs and so on. Some years ago I made some calcs for me, maybe they help someone else too to get to the right number of dredgers in their 60.

Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.

Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD. To create a list more relevant it's maybe the time to go back with our dear old friend : River Kelpie ...

[Final Fortune]

Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.

Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD. To create a list more relevant it's maybe the time to go back with our dear old friend : River Kelpie ...

This isn't the whole consideration, you need to calculate the odds of drawing 2 Dredgers because of how Surgical Extraction, or Faerie Macabre, remove the first Dredger from the gave yard. Redundancy is your best strategy vs hate, and there's nothing really worth cutting Dredgers for at this point as the deck looks to fill the last 4 slots with anything of justifiable value.

[C4Ctu5]

Losing a full turn 10% of matches seems like a big deal to me, and something that will affect our win rate negatively. The 4 cards replacing Shambling Shell hopefully makes up for that, but I wouldn't say 10% is no big deal. It is.
I guess it's a matter of point of view, for me taking a muligan in 10% of my games is not a big deal.
But I agree when you say that we shouldn't go under 4 Phantasmagorian. And I would maintain the same reasonning regarding Nether Shadow actually.
The list I posted was actually bad but I managed to build a similar one with 4 samples of the above cards.

Regarding Prized Amalgam however, I keep thinking that it is not necessary to have 4 of them, especially if you don't have the FoW/Shoal pack.
True that it helps more in U list but that it is also usefull in G list, but the 12 recursive creatures we have are already enough in my opinion.
Prized Amalgam is just butter on your pop-tarts.
They are better than Dryad Arbor against Miracle (because they can arrive EoT after a Terminus) but also slower for that same reason.


Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.
Well I would like to be at 85% chances with 12 dredgers, but it's actually only 81%.
The graph of Perian is nice to have a overview, thanks dude.


Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD.
I agree that fighting Cage is probably useless, but Dryad Arbor is also a free creature that increases our chances to Dread Return earlier.
It also helps to fight Daze which became more frequent and allows you to play your spells under Thalia.
I'm starting to think that Dryad Arbor is actually becoming optimal now.
And keep in mind that Reverent Silence is not only usefull against RiP & Leyline of the void, it also gets rid of the nasty enchantments played by Miracle aka Moat and Humility.
And if you really fear Containment Priest, you can always pack Contagion/Sickening Shoal (the latter being undervalued in my opinion taking into account its interraction with Phantasmagorian).


This isn't the whole consideration, you need to calculate the odds of drawing 2 Dredgers because of how Surgical Extraction, or Faerie Macabre, remove the first Dredger from the gave yard. Redundancy is your best strategy vs hate, and there's nothing really worth cutting Dredgers for at this point as the deck looks to fill the last 4 slots with anything of justifiable value.
I totally agree that redundancy is the big plus of Manaless Dredge, and that it is the best strategy against soft graveyard hate (Surgical Extraction, Relic of Progenitus, etc.).
The problem is: following the ban of Death Rith Shaman, hard graveyard hates will show up more often (RiP, Leyline, Cage).
And redundancy is not enough anymore.
I maintain that we shouldn't be playing Shambling Shell. Don't seek control, aim for victory.

[Michael Keller]

EDIT: maybe the Pharaoh is not that great... maybe

Pharaoh's stock may be higher again with the anticipated rise of Reanimator.

[Bougnat]

Hi,

for the moment it's strange but there is not an increase of reanimator in the tournament. We see :

- canadian RUG is strongly back
- death and taxes is T1
- decks combo lands with Knight of the Reliquary (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Knight%20of%20the%20Reliquary?fromqs=true) are extremely present

if Lands will be T1, maybe we will have to add Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) in side to counter Knight of the Reliquary (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Knight%20of%20the%20Reliquary?fromqs=true) and Dark Depths (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Depths?fromqs=true) ?

[perian]

Well I would like to be at 85% chances with 12 dredgers, but it's actually only 81%.
That's correct. The 85% is with 8 cards drawn @12 dredgers.
Btw. 7+6 means combined probability of draw 7 & mulligan to 6 (only mulligan if no dredger is in the first 7, without scry - this was no thing back in the days)

I also intended to post the related tables with the numbers and some additional information, but the quality of the pic was too bad to read anything. Maybe I will try again if I find another way to present them in a proper way...

[KoomZog]

I guess it's a matter of point of view, for me taking a muligan in 10% of my games is not a big deal.
But I agree when you say that we shouldn't go under 4 Phantasmagorian. And I would maintain the same reasonning regarding Nether Shadow actually.
The list I posted was actually bad but I managed to build a similar one with 4 samples of the above cards.

Regarding Prized Amalgam however, I keep thinking that it is not necessary to have 4 of them, especially if you don't have the FoW/Shoal pack.
True that it helps more in U list but that it is also usefull in G list, but the 12 recursive creatures we have are already enough in my opinion.
Prized Amalgam is just butter on your pop-tarts.

Agree to disagree then. :)

I still play FoWs, so that factors into my evaluation of Amalgam, but I think they would still be pretty great without FoW. They make the combo finish require one less Dread Return, since you don't need to DR a big creature (like GGT) to deal the last damage after Flayer, the Prized Amalgams will enter in end step and deal 6/9/12 damage. Also, like you said, they dodge Terminus. I don't see me going below 4 Amalgams anytime soon.

I've goldfished a bit with River Kelpie in my deck, and I think I might try that route, with ~2 in the main. Sometimes they are better DR targets than Whirlpool Rider, and they can also be pitched to FoW, or to Shoal to counter an opposing FoW I suppose.


Pharaoh's stock may be higher again with the anticipated rise of Reanimator.

I've also found it useful against D&T and creature decks in general. Besides just killing stuff, D&T having a first strike creature (Thalia) makes Pharaoh able to mess with combat math.

[Echelon]

Yeah, Amalgam is a 4-off period. Regardless of if you're on a blue list or straight Spy.

[scottpou]

yeah, amalgam is a 4-off period. Regardless of if you're on a blue list or straight spy.
preach!

[Final Fortune]

What the hell would you even cut Amalgram for that matters in any way, shape or form when we already have 4 slots to fill?

I've been playing with Pharaoh and can't really say it's made much of a difference in any matchup so far, I feed it to Ichorid more than anything.

[gngpostalsrvc]

echelon, I've played your list a few times and really like it. Would you make any changes to the SB in light of the recent bannings?

[C4Ctu5]

Well if everybody maintain that Prized Amalgam is a auto-included in 4 copies, I must be wrong then.

Thanks for your insights, guys!

[WarpWorld]

Well if everybody maintain that Prized Amalgam is a auto-included in 4 copies, I must be wrong then.

Thanks for your insights, guys!Don't underestimate the power of a 3/3 it might come into play tapped but it is the biggest body that sticks around on our board. It is a good clock and gives the beat down plan real legs

[Sovelis]

Prized Amalgam is just butter on your pop-tarts.

Have you ever actually eaten butter on a pop tart? It's the best.

Just like 4x Prized Amalgam.

[Echelon]

echelon, I've played your list a few times and really like it. Would you make any changes to the SB in light of the recent bannings?

That is so cool! For now I wouldn't really know what to change though. I'm unsure if trying to hedge for bad MUs at the cost of some consistency is better than just trying to kill them as fast as you can.

[vieko]

Don't underestimate the power of a 3/3 it might come into play tapped but it is the biggest body that sticks around on our board. It is a good clock and gives the beat down plan real legs

I defeated Reanimator with an active Elesh Norn BECAUSE of the Amalgams: they survive of course... D'returned the Flayer, sac'ed Flayer to Therapy, Undying damage and won when the Amalgams came back.

These 4 are a must include :)

[Bougnat]

Well done ! :tongue:

[NecroYawgmoth]

I have a question to you guys...

I goldfished a couple hands these days, to get a feel how many Dredgers I wanted to play, and also to test if I could implement/like a card like Serum Powder.

One hand I had was the following:

Bridge from Below
Prized Amalgam
Dread Return
Street Wraith
Force of Will
Ichorid
Phantasmagorian

Would you keep such a hand Game 1? You essential had an 8th and 9th draw.

Anyways, I decided to keep on the goldfish. Card 8 was Faerie Macabre and the 9th card from Sreet Wraith was another Amalgam.

So... ...I drew no Dredgers, but if I discard Phant eot I could've binned all cards except FoW and have Ichorid & Bridge for 2 turns and 2 Amalgams. Is this enough in some matchups? Haven't played legacy for a long while, but I would like to know what you guys think about the hand and the situation.




I defeated Reanimator with an active Elesh Norn BECAUSE of the Amalgams: they survive of course... D'returned the Flayer, sac'ed Flayer to Therapy, Undying damage and won when the Amalgams came back.

These 4 are a must include :)

Eh... something is wrong here. :rolleyes: If you DR a Flayer it dies because Elesh Norn gives it -2-2. You still get the 2 damage trigger and the Undying trigger for 3 damage when it returns, but you can't sac it to Therapy due to Elesh Norns static ability. :tongue: ...and you wouldn't afterwards because it would be dead then.

[quikaxe]

Pre ban my list included probes and spies, no FoW or other counters. There's seems to be a blue is the preferred version, it seemed like a variation before. I've played with whirlpool a few times, it just feels slower than spy to me. Is there room for both to keep the speed of spy and have the access to blue for the counters with whirlpool?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[vieko]

Pre ban my list included probes and spies, no FoW or other counters. There's seems to be a blue is the preferred version, it seemed like a variation before. I've played with whirlpool a few times, it just feels slower than spy to me. Is there room for both to keep the speed of spy and have the access to blue for the counters with whirlpool?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Drop the single Shambling Shell for a single Spy - done deal.

[Final Fortune]

Pre ban my list included probes and spies, no FoW or other counters. There's seems to be a blue is the preferred version, it seemed like a variation before. I've played with whirlpool a few times, it just feels slower than spy to me. Is there room for both to keep the speed of spy and have the access to blue for the counters with whirlpool?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Sure, with 8 blue cards in the MD you SB in Force of Will and a supporting blue card, like Snapback as an arguably worse Contagion, and then you're fine - Whirlpool Rider was mainly added because it was 2cc for that other counter spell. Blue isn't really mandatory, Rest in Peace and Grafdigger's Cage are few and far between even in the decks that can play them because they want to abuse Snapcaster Mage themselves, I think you can get away with Unmask and Contagion just fine. The best cards in the SB are honestly all Leylines, Sanctity for Storm, Void for Reanimator and then black pitch removal for D&T creatures is all you really need (that M19 creature that exiles to wipe the yard will probably see a lot of play, I think it's even MDable)

[Bougnat]

Hi,

I would like to propose you a variant I' m testing actually with artifact. I try to find a solution to Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and other anoying card as Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true).



" The brown manaless "

13 dredge:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Grave-Troll?fromqs=true)
4 Stinkweed Imp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stinkweed%20Imp?fromqs=true)
4 Golgari Thug (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Thug?fromqs=true)
1 Shambling Shell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Shambling%20Shell?fromqs=true)

12 draw
4 Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
4 Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
4 Street Wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith?fromqs=true)

20 creatures
4 Nether Shadow (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether%20Shadow?fromqs=true)
4 Ichorid (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorid?fromqs=true)
4 Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)
4 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true)

15 Others
4 Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true)
3 Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
3 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)


Subboard
SB: 4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true)
SB: 4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599)
SB: 3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401)




Let me explain my choices:
Main deck, the missing cards are Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567), but thanks to the 4 Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true), 4 Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and 4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) witch are not usualy in the list you can make a big pressure immediatly.

Post side against Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true). :

+4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true)
+4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599)
+3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)
-4 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
-3 Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
-3 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)

Actually, we have only force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) to counter the cage. Some as done some green list with Nature's Claim (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nature%27s%20Claim?fromqs=true) but the problem is you need this card + a forest in your hand to make something. With the list I propose, you need a Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) or a Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) (1 of the 8 cards) . The aim is to dredge as much as possible thanks to the 12 draws. When the graveyard is quite full, you can play your 1/1 from your hand. 2-3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) should come on board. Then sacrifice them to put a Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382). If you played a Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) this mean you had sacrifice it to the titan and you have 2-4 2/2 creatures thanks to the Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true). You should hope after it will be enought to win :tongue:
There is maybe something better to do but rather than lost immediatly against a Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) Turn 1, here you have a real strategy. And this work also against Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true) ! :cool:


Do not hesitate to comment this stategy and thanks to read it !


Bougnat

[JackaBo]

Hi,

I would like to propose you a variant I' m testing actually with artifact. I try to find a solution to Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and other anoying card as Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true).



" The brown manaless "

13 dredge:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Grave-Troll?fromqs=true)
4 Stinkweed Imp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stinkweed%20Imp?fromqs=true)
4 Golgari Thug (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Thug?fromqs=true)
1 Shambling Shell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Shambling%20Shell?fromqs=true)

12 draw
4 Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
4 Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true)
4 Street Wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith?fromqs=true)

20 creatures
4 Nether Shadow (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether%20Shadow?fromqs=true)
4 Ichorid (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorid?fromqs=true)
4 Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)
4 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true)

15 Others
4 Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true)
3 Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
3 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)


Subboard
SB: 4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true)
SB: 4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599)
SB: 3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401)




Let me explain my choices:
Main deck, the missing cards are Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567), but thanks to the 4 Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true), 4 Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and 4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) witch are not usualy in the list you can make a big pressure immediatly.

Post side against Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true). :

+4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true)
+4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599)
+3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)
-4 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
-3 Dread Return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
-3 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)

Actually, we have only force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) to counter the cage. Some as done some green list with Nature's Claim (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nature%27s%20Claim?fromqs=true) but the problem is you need this card + a forest in your hand to make something. With the list I propose, you need a Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) or a Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) (1 of the 8 cards) . The aim is to dredge as much as possible thanks to the 12 draws. When the graveyard is quite full, you can play your 1/1 from your hand. 2-3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) should come on board. Then sacrifice them to put a Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382). If you played a Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) this mean you had sacrifice it to the titan and you have 2-4 2/2 creatures thanks to the Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true). You should hope after it will be enought to win :tongue:
There is maybe something better to do but rather than lost immediatly against a Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) Turn 1, here you have a real strategy. And this work also against Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true) ! :cool:


Do not hesitate to comment this stategy and thanks to read it !


Bougnat

Interesting in theory. How gas this worked out in practice?

[Echelon]

All I see is 12 cards that are dead when dredged... GGT now has dredge 5 in that list, functionally.

[Bougnat]

Hi,

after testing please find my feedback of this experimental version :

Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) is clearly missing main deck. I use to play without before the ban of deathrite shaman (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman?fromqs=true), but it was because Chancellor of the Annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?fromqs=true&printing=18186) were always included X4 and were a good target for dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true).
I ll include again 3 Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) MD.


Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) are a strong alternative to the ban of Gitaxian Probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe?fromqs=true). It helps you drawing + (less than gitaxian but helps you) making a choice for Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true).
Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) will probably be present in my list.


the option 4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) MD +4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) SB is really bad. They are ridiculous alone (1/1), the player remove them easily from the board and you need to destroy the structure of the deck to include them.....
It was a try ! :laugh:


4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) 3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) were not bad. Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) transform your 1/1 to 2/3, increasing the pressure until the letal combo. And Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) has 2 effects:
- When you cast it you destroy 3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599). You have a big body creature on table (6/4), but you have also 3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) ready to come back to make pressure and you are close again to cast a Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) !!!
- the 2nd card effect mean you can have it in your hand easily. This effect is nice to cast it, but it helps you also to discard an extra card (1 time) at the end of turn: you have you hand full (7), dredge (8), and return it in your hand (9)!
I ll continue my test the 4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) +3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)



Bougnat



PS: Sorry for the spelling and translation mistakes, I' m talking french.

[DJ_AGUILA]

Hi,

after testing please find my feedback of this experimental version :

Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) is clearly missing main deck. I use to play without before the ban of deathrite shaman (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman?fromqs=true), but it was because Chancellor of the Annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?fromqs=true&printing=18186) were always included X4 and were a good target for dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true).
I ll include again 3 Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) MD.


Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) are a strong alternative to the ban of Gitaxian Probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe?fromqs=true). It helps you drawing + (less than gitaxian but helps you) making a choice for Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true).
Mishra's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) and Urza's Bauble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Bauble?fromqs=true) will probably be present in my list.


the option 4 Dryad Arbor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dryad%20Arbor?fromqs=true) MD +4 Memnite (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Memnite?fromqs=true) SB is really bad. They are ridiculous alone (1/1), the player remove them easily from the board and you need to destroy the structure of the deck to include them.....
It was a try ! :laugh:


4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) 3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) were not bad. Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) transform your 1/1 to 2/3, increasing the pressure until the letal combo. And Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) has 2 effects:
- When you cast it you destroy 3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599). You have a big body creature on table (6/4), but you have also 3 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) ready to come back to make pressure and you are close again to cast a Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382) !!!
- the 2nd card effect mean you can have it in your hand easily. This effect is nice to cast it, but it helps you also to discard an extra card (1 time) at the end of turn: you have you hand full (7), dredge (8), and return it in your hand (9)!
I ll continue my test the 4 Sword of the Meek (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek?fromqs=true&printing=1599) +3 Salvage Titan (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Salvage%20Titan?fromqs=true&printing=5382)



Bougnat



PS: Sorry for the spelling and translation mistakes, I' m talking french.
I think Chancellor of the Forge is better than memmite, in the past good players, play it in the main and have good results. The problem with the Cage don't solution in the lategame:frown:

[mistercakes]

it might not be very good, but hollow one works well with phantasmagorian if they are running cage or surgical (and don't target phantasmagorian)

[Final Fortune]

Bauble Dredge was a thing before Gitaxian Probe, personally I've been running Gigapede in order to optimize graveyards without exposing myself to graveyard wipes and liking it quite a bit.

[Lava Snacks]

Casual scum n00b question: With Whirlpool Rider's triggered ability, let's say you're shuffling 5 cards into your library and drawing/dredging 5 times. You can dredge into a dredger the first time, and then use that new dredger's static ability for the next dredge, and so forth, right? So you don't have to start out with 5 dredgers in your GY when Rider enters the battlefield if you want to dredge 5 times.

But you can't activate Phantasmagoria's ability from the graveyard in between dredges to dredge with the same dredger repeatedly, right? It's just that with each successive draw, you either draw, or you choose between drawing and dredging if a dredger is in your GY, even if the dredger only got there from the last dredge.

I said dredge a lot.

[WarpWorld]

Casual scum n00b question: With Whirlpool Rider's triggered ability, let's say you're shuffling 5 cards into your library and drawing/dredging 5 times. You can dredge into a dredger the first time, and then use that new dredger's static ability for the next dredge, and so forth, right? So you don't have to start out with 5 dredgers in your GY when Rider enters the battlefield if you want to dredge 5 times.

But you can't activate Phantasmagoria's ability from the graveyard in between dredges to dredge with the same dredger repeatedly, right? It's just that with each successive draw, you either draw, or you choose between drawing and dredging if a dredger is in your GY, even if the dredger only got there from the last dredge.

I said dredge a lot.

Yes if you only have one dredger in your yard when you start and find another one as you go you get to keep dredging until you have drawn/dredged 5 times. It is also correct that you can't activate Phantasmagorian in the middle of resolving the ability from the rider. Each draw is treated separately which is why you can dredge each one or choose to draw the card if your library is getting to low on cards.

[Lava Snacks]

Great, thanks.

[Lava Snacks]

Yo I'm loving learning all the tricks; this deck is a blast.

The trick that tickled me today was a probably obvious and elementary one with Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. When activating Phantasmagorian's ability twice, it hadn't occurred to me to activate it to discard a dredger and wait for the second, maintain priority and activate Wraith, and then activate it a second time when its ability was back on top of the stack, based on what I dredged, to get stuff on top of a dredged Nether Shadow or whatever, or even to decide not to activate it a second time for whatever reason, or to (and I think this is my favorite) activate the ability then to once again discard the same dredger that I binned the first time and activated with Wraith.

What do you guys choose to do against Sneak & Show when you have a Force of Will and blue card in hand, plus a Whirlpool Rider, and they cast Show and Tell? Obviously it's dependent on other cards in the graveyard and game state, but I was wondering about Forcing the SnT, or just letting it go, knowing that my Rider will probably win the game.

[Xenio]

What do you guys choose to do against Sneak & Show when you have a Force of Will and blue card in hand, plus a Whirlpool Rider, and they cast Show and Tell? Obviously it's dependent on other cards in the graveyard and game state, but I was wondering about Forcing the SnT, or just letting it go, knowing that my Rider will probably win the game.

There is 2 possibility for him : Griselbrand or Emrakul. If he put Griselbrand and is full tap, he will draw 14 into maybe petal and force of will but won't create more threat. And Emrakul we don't really care. So if he is full tap and I have a dredger I put the Whirlpool Rider and dredge 7 into my draw, into 3 Cabal that he have to force and I basically win the game thanks to him ;)

[Echelon]

@Lava Snacks: Another fun one is cycling a Street Wraith into another dredge or activating Phantasmagorian to get more Prized Amalgams in the yard as reaction to a Narcomoeba trigger :laugh:

I.e you dredge a Moeba into the yard, let the trigger go on the stack and in response cycle Street Wraith/dredge some more or activate Phantasmagorian to discard in-hand Amalgams so they see the Moeba hit the field and trigger themselves

[mistercakes]

There is 2 possibility for him : Griselbrand or Emrakul. If he put Griselbrand and is full tap, he will draw 14 into maybe petal and force of will but won't create more threat. And Emrakul we don't really care. So if he is full tap and I have a dredger I put the Whirlpool Rider and dredge 7 into my draw, into 3 Cabal that he have to force and I basically win the game thanks to him ;)

There's a bunch of sneak and show that are running 2 omniscience. He can also put sneak attack into play if he has the mana to kill you (maybe), but would have to sneak in emrakul.

[WarpWorld]

There's a bunch of sneak and show that are running 2 omniscience. He can also put sneak attack into play if he has the mana to kill you (maybe), but would have to sneak in emrakul.

Omni is the card that scares me the most without Chancellor of the annex. If we put in something the flips are Library and they have a hasty emrakul it's still not the end of the game as long as we have more than 15 life. We sacrifice some number of narcomoebas and such to the Annihilator trigger and get zombies. Then we get amalgams at end of turn and our ichorids and Shadows on our upkeep. As long as we have progenitus or a card to draw we should just win. Now a hasty emrakul and griselbrand is lights out.

[KoomZog]

My favorite line of play is to discard a Phantasmagorian turn 1, activate it in the opponent's second main discarding one or more dredgers, in response cycle Street Wraith and dredge. Hopefully we hit a Narco and we get to return any Prized Amalgams discarded or milled in their end step.

[Gorehound]

Long Time Manaless Dredger First time Poster looking to for Ideas for MD/SB options.

I have always been fond of this deck as it was my first deck in to the format. This was a deck that help grind my way to a playset of both Force of Will and Tropical Island so I'd like to bring it back to my meta with a vengeance in the face of prison decks, control and the reassurance of goblins in my meta.

The Mainboard is pretty stock and there isn't much going on aside from some choice card selections that are currently under going some testing. I paid more attention to the sideboard.

With the sideboard I went all in on the Leyline hate plan. I have tried a different sideboard in the past running Nature's Claim but I found it weak to discard/ chalice prior my obtaining of Forces. With this board I am kind of hedging that my opponent will try to mull to Leyline of the Void for the hypothetical Turn 0 win. Alternatively, this is where I can mull and be potentially rewarded by hitting either Land Grant or Bayou with Reverent Silence or hit a fast enough start with Land Grant + Cabal Therapy to negate that Turn 1 Do Nothing on Games 2 & Game 3.

This plan is admittedly soft to Grafdigger's Cage without Force backup or Turn 0 Chancellor Tax. I've been looking into ways around it but with the Leyline Hate package there isn't much wiggle room to work with.


Its still a work in progress to see if it is viable .

Also trying to answer how to sideboard the Leyline Hate plan either cutting 6 cards or adding in 6.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

MB

4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Street Wraith
4x Ichorid
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Golgari Thug
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Bridge from Below
4x Force of Will
3x Shambling Shell
3x Chancellor of the Annex
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Griselbrand
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Laboratory Maniac ( A new addition as a possible win con + additional blue card)




SB

1x Progenitus
1x Realm Razer
1x Contagion
1x Sickening Shoal
1x Bayou
2x Land Grant
2x Ashen Rider
3x Reverent Silence
3x Mindbreak Trap

[Echelon]

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

[WarpWorld]

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

I agree that lab man is risky. I do know someone playing with lab man and elvish visionary as their main win con. I have been trying to get them switch to flyer but they like lab man.

[Echelon]

Yup, seems like a much safer and more robust way to win the game.

[WarpWorld]

Yup, seems like a much safer and more robust way to win the game.I believe he plays 1 lab man and 2 visionary. The down side is of course that lab man and visionary are not black for ichorids. Beyond that I don't think I matters how you win once you flip your library, only that you do win

[Gorehound]

Laboratory Maniac is an incredibly risky wincon for this deck as it'll either have to survive for a turn or you'll have to have a Street Wraith in hand the turn you DR it. Why bother with that if Flayer means a guaranteed kill the same turn you DR it?

The idea in theory is to minimize the amount of Dread Return to set up a window to win. Most Flayer wins need 3 Dread Returns minimum which leaves 1 Dread Return as a flex slot or counter fodder without full information with Cabal Therapy.

I am not going to deny that it is a risky line but its one of several options the deck has in its arsenal albeit a risky one.. I don't think it will be a permanent stay in the MB. It either doesn't work out or proves its worth. It just an idea i'm tinkering around with adding more win cons to the deck that don't with through damage as to get from under certain creatures/lands that prevent damage.

The safer line for the Lab Man play would still involve 3 Dread Return as I would have to get Azami, Lady of Scrolls to tap Lab Man to win after Spy mills me out. Might have to go that route for this line.

[Echelon]

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

[KoomZog]

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?

That'll do it most of the time.
Flayer + Flayer with Undying + 4xPrized Amalgam = 4+5+4x3 = 21 damage worth of triggers.
Yet another reason I'd never cut a Prized Amalgam.

[Echelon]

Yup :laugh:

[Bougnat]

.... and just flayer + prized amalgam you can kill a Griselbrand :)

[Noloam_]

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, reaper king. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

[Echelon]

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, Myojin of Infinite Rage. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

No. Horrible, horrible plan.

[Noloam_]

So hedging on having a 4-off + a 6-off in your opening 8 for something that gets countered by literally everything and that's completely useless in your GY and can't be fed to Ichorid at the cost of your combo enabler (Therapy, which you use to prevent DR from getting countered), your replacement for Probe and 2 dredgers..?

No. Horrible, horrible plan.

when the counter the shoal they dont have the counter for the DR right? if they dont have the counter, you have a blow out. The cards are not useless in your graveyard, the red creatures are extra creatures to trigger nether shadow. Therapy and probe were not feeding the ichorid either, so that is a false comparison.

also having a blow out before they are able to cast rip/containment priest seems pretty sweet to me

[Echelon]

I'd rather bank on having CT in my GY to clear counters than on having 2 specific cards in my hand.

As for the blowout before RiP/Containment Priest - 10 damage is far from lethal and therefor irrelevant if you're dead in the water afterwards.

[NecroYawgmoth]

what do you guys think of?

Blazing Shoal, with Dragon Tyrant, reaper king. Sneaking in an extra 10 damage seems pretty sweet. Im gonna try it main -4 probe (after ban) -4 therapy (worse after probe ban) - 2 shambling shell

Cutting Therapies...

Easily the worst advice in this thread.:rolleyes:

[Gorehound]

Just DR Flayer and let triggers do the rest..?


This would do it most of the time. But I was thinking of ways to win around cards like Glacial Chasm. Where it severely limits the level of damage based interaction.

I have played matches against cards like Platinum Emperion and it can be worked around with enough damage triggers to kill the 8/8. But the Chasm stands in the way of any Damage based win.

Most decks that run it, I find that I wouldn't want to sideboard the hate against it granted its usually a one of.


In my SB Ashen Rider and Realm Razer deal with it fine but its situational to set up the optimal condition to get it out on board without fully combo'ing out with Spy using more copies of DR to get the job done.


It's something I'm going to test further seeing as the Alt-Win Con with Lab Man and Azami, Lady of Scrolls ups the Blue card count up a tad bit percentage wise making it less likely to wiff with hands with a Force of Will.


I don't expect to win with it often but its a trick I can have in the main board in case I run this specific problem and don't sideboard for it.

[Noloam_]

what do you guys think of hollow one? since it comboes with phantosmogorian. or sidecases like: with multiple streets wraight or if you run multiple gigapedes, or therapy yourself for perhaps multiples, Or discard faerie macabre (which i run main)

[Echelon]

Again dead in the GY.

It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.

[Noloam_]

Again dead in the GY.

It's a thing in Vintage b/c of Bazaar of Baghdad. Unfortunately we don't have tools like that. If it has a place in Legacy it's in regular dredge, since that runs stuff like Faithless Looting, Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum which actually help you draw into it. And even there it doesn't see any play.

How is chancellor of the annex not almost just as dead in the graveyard?

how is phantasomogorian worse then bazaar for the hollow one effect? if even works from the graveyard if you did not have it in your opener. which makes it even easier

[Echelon]

Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s) (and provides additional dredges to boot), Phantasmagorian just discards cards... Bazaar >> Phantasmagorian.

A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.

[Noloam_]

Bazaar helps you draw into Hollow One(s), Phantasmagorian just discards cards...

A DR'd Chancellor is probably good enough to win most MUs, including some very poor ones (ANT/TES comes to mind), those MUs care very little about a resolved 4/4.


yes but you still need to have it in your opener. You do not need phantasmogorian in your opener. all the sidecases together also make it reasonable.

that only goes for the sidecase where you dont have any better dread return targets. a chancellor vs almost all non storm matches is still very poor

[Echelon]

The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.

[Noloam_]

The payoff for Bazaar is that you win on T1/2... Phantasmagorian is just a necessary tool, without any payoff.

As for Chancellor - a DR'd Chancellor > a DR'd Hollow One 100% of the time. A Chancellor in your opener might be the difference between you getting disrupted to hell in your postboard games and actually standing a fighting chance. Hollow One does not slow down hate in the slightest.


im not sure why that comparison is relevant to the discussion

yeah 100% of the time. but that still makes it a terrible DR target. the chance that chancellor steal any game by fighting graveyard hate post board is almost 0, since you are almost always on the draw

[Echelon]

Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.

[Noloam_]

Chancellor's trigger resolves before anyone's T1 begins. And a smart opponent puts you on the play so they'll get a free card out of it.

Yeah thats my whole point. you cant do anything before they get to play a land. so the can still crypt, cage you all day. i dont see how chancellor is helping here

[Echelon]

It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.

[Noloam_]

It's a hail Mary, which is still better than nothing. It might also just delay them a turn so you get to cast Unmask. It has mattered a non-zero number of times in the years I've played it.

i prefer a more aggressive aggro game 1 and bring in the complete nature claim/r.silence package side, because i think losing to random leylines is just stupid. Thats better than a hail mary in my opinion

https://ibb.co/c116nz

phantasmogorian into hollow one also goes through a containment priest / cage btw

[Echelon]

Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.

[Noloam_]

Ah yes, more banking on having several specific cards in hand that fold to every single counter your opponent plays.

It's very nice that you can cast Hollow One through Cage/Priest, but it still gets answered by Daze/FoW and in itself is hardly enough to close out a game, even if you manage to resolve 2.


the decks that play leyline 99% of the time dont play counters. aggro loam and eldrazi

if a counter spell is your counter argument for everything, then nobody can ever change your mind

[Echelon]

Basic math is my main argument.

If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.

[noloam]

Basic math is my main argument.

If your opponent plays counters it's most likely you will not be able to resolve a given card when you need it (due to how many your opponent plays and the cantrips they run). Assuming your opponent always drops a land on their first turn there's a 65% chance they'll have either Daze or FoW, if no cantrip was played. If they did play a cantrip or do so in response to whatever you play, your odds become even worse. So basically you'll have a 35% chance of resolving something important on the first go. And this is if they were silly enough to put you on the draw.

If you board in the green hate package it's most likely that you will not have both card X and card Y when you need them (due to how many of each you play). The most consistent result here would come from a 8/7 split, which means you'll have a .71 * .65 = about 46% chance of having it in your opening 8.

A 35% and 46% succes rate are not rates I like. In those cases I'll just try to be as speedy as possible and hope I'm fast enough.

i just told you 99% of the leyline decks dont play blue. so it does work

yes that is also was my math. about 50% chance. Better than a 100% scoop rate vs decks that mull to leyline. you cant outspeed a leyline, no matter how high your hopes are