[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[Echelon]

The first case concerned your Hollow One plan, when dealing with Leyline decks the 2nd case applies.

Seems I need to spell out everything...

As for the Leyline case, the odds of your opponent having a Leyline and you having the answer is about .41 * .46 so it'll work in roughly 19% of your games vs. decks w/ 4 Leylines if you optimize your entire SB for just that.

[Lava Snacks]

Against decks like Grixis Control that favor Surgical Extraction as SB GY hate, have you guys been holding up Street Wraiths for a couple of turns as Extraction protection, or just jamming it right away for speed? I've been holding it up, partially because it's not like Grixis Control has a fast clock anyway, but I was wondering what everyone else has been doing in games 2 and 3. They don't always target the dredger with Extraction, but I feel like the protection part of the time is worth more than speed against a slower opponent.

[Echelon]

I do the same

[Athlete]

What do you guys think about Creeping Chill from Guilds of Ravnica?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/creeping-chill/

3B, Sorcery, UC:
Deal 3 damage to each opponent and gain 3 life.
When put into a graveyard from the library, deals 3 damage to each opponent and you gain 3 life.


Worth an inclusion? 4x equals 12 damage plus 12 life.. thoughts?

[Echelon]

I'm going to test it regardles.

Lotleth Giant just got spoiled. Our kill just got 1 DR shorter! When it EtB it deals 1 damage to your opponent for every creature card in your GY!

[Michael Keller]

What do you guys think about Creeping Chill from Guilds of Ravnica?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/creeping-chill/

3B, Sorcery, UC:
Deal 3 damage to each opponent and gain 3 life.
When put into a graveyard from the library, deals 3 damage to each opponent and you gain 3 life.


Worth an inclusion? 4x equals 12 damage plus 12 life.. thoughts?

Could be funny with Noxious Revival.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Athlete left out a pretty important line of the card...

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/974/200/283/636725371037543466.jpeg

[Scott]

Lotleth Giant just got spoiled. Our kill just got 1 DR shorter! When it EtB it deals 1 damage to your opponent for every creature card in your GY!

Are you thinking of just putting it in place of a flex spot like Shambling Shell, in addition to the existing Dread Return targets? Looking at it without too much thought, I assume you still keep your Flayer of the Hatebound and Balustrade Spy/Whirlpool Rider.

[Echelon]

Nope, Flayer becomes Lol Giant

[Athlete]

Athlete left out a pretty important line of the card...

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/974/200/283/636725371037543466.jpeg

you are correct - forgot the "exile it" clause ;)

[zzap]

Fire off your Street Wraiths sooner than later; better opponents are usually holding their narrow hate for better stuff than dredgers.

Giant smooths out the combo, and it can be pitched to Ichorid in a pinch. Upgrade.

Creeping Chill is a nice addition. It's counterproof, which pans nicely with the philosophy of the deck. It helps fight through resolved priests and cages. The life gain improves the coinflip we have with Burn. It just might be a staple in the deck. Time will tell.

Still waiting for MtG to print stuff to replace the garbage: Pervert Spy/Jizzelback/Vaporwaver, Netherpoop, and Shamblestupid.

[zzap]

Fire off your Street Wraiths sooner than later; better opponents are usually holding their narrow hate for better stuff than dredgers.

Giant smooths out the combo, and it can be pitched to Ichorid in a pinch. Upgrade.

Creeping Chill is a nice addition. It's counterproof, which pans nicely with the philosophy of the deck. It helps fight through resolved priests and cages. The life gain improves the coinflip we have with Burn. It just might be a staple in the deck. Time will tell.

Still waiting for MtG to print stuff to replace the garbage: Pervert Spy/Jizzelback/Vaporwaver, Netherpoop, and Shamblestupid.

[Lava Snacks]

I'm just wondering about the mid-game strength of Flayer and Lotleth Giant. It's true what's been said about Giant being better than Flayer in ways, but it's nice to Dread Return a Flayer mid-game even without Balustrade Spy or Whirlpool Rider and knowing it can be lethal in a couple of turns with creatures coming back from the graveyard, while Giant will be a one-shot less than lethal if you haven't dumped your library.

Another point is while it's true that it requires one less Dread Return, Flayer often does that anyway now, with returning Prized Amalgams hitting for lethal with just the library dump + Flayer.

Giant could end up being better, but I'm just weighing it out.

[zzap]

I still think Giant is better mid-game than Flayer. The damage will be higher with the Giant, and Flayer will need to play catchup using other creatures. Giant also has a better bod.

Also, you could drop Giant through a S&T, while Flayer is just bad.

[Final Fortune]

Lotleth Giant looks strictly better than Flayer of the Hatebound, running it in multiples since it feeds Ichorid is also something worth thinking about considering it may very well be Balustrade Spy and a kill condition in one card by the time you Dread Return - removing a weakness vs Reanimate - and it also pitches to Sickenning Shoal for 7, killing any creature in the format.

I am definitely buying a set of them, it may be a little slower than Balustrade Spy and Flayer of the Hatebound but you can combine it with creature damage, Dread Return it multiple times or wait to fill up the graveyard. Furthermore with Creeping Chill the deck may be better positioned to beat down the opponent.

At worst, it lets us play 2x of the card for redundancy vs Tormod’s Crypt effects and the freedom to feed one to Ichorid.

[ahg113]

Pleasantly surprised. This is probably the most help that would reasonably be expected for manaless without a card actually having a free alternative cost or the dredge mechanic.

I tend to agree with folks about the inclusion of Lotleth Giant over Flayer. Whatever cuts down on the number of mechanics, or the delay time of triggers to resolve, the better.

Creeping Chill, while completely different, seems like it could be a 4 for 4 swap with whatever folks were using to plug the G. Probe hole. It is too cute, but it's functional.

I had previously been on 4 Chancellor MD, 4 FoW & 2 D.Shoal SB. Just tooling around, and especially with DRS gone, that doesn't seem optimal, that sort of disruption. What are folks running in SBs these days? Punting around this for the moment. Janky, but versatile?

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ashen Rider
3 Contagion
3 Unmask

[Final Fortune]

Creeping Chill has been super low impact, I don’t think removing creatures for the Nether Shadow trigger is worth it. I am starting to think that slot should just be some random black creature to feed Ichorid like Faerie Macabre or Vengeful Pharaoh.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Lotleth Giant looks amazing and makes me want to consider Manaless over the mana version.

In LED Dredge, I find opponents save Extraction for win conditions instead of dredgers, so holding Street Wraith may not help. The longer you wait, the more likely they can cantrip into disruption. It seems better to just go aggressive and try to win first vs targeted hate.



3 Ensnaring Bridge


How do you get it out? Show and Tell tech vs Emrakul? If they drop Omni-combo, it does nothing. If they drop Griselbrand, you draw/dredge back up to 7 cards on your turn, you miss a discard step, and they can still attack and draw infinity. The 4th Ashen Rider seems better.

[Echelon]

So here's what my 60'll look like the next time I get to test it:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Creeping Chill (although these could turn back into Chancellors if they fail to impress)
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

[Bougnat]

Echelon, I'm quite agree with your version (I prefer Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) than Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) because of SB), and Creeping Chill has to be tested.

What's your SB actually? Because of the U/b Death's Shadow, I switched contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) by Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824)

my SB :

4 Force of Will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true)
4 Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825)
4 Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)
3 Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824)

[Echelon]

For now it's the same old SB as always:

3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

It probably needs an overhaul.

[Bougnat]

If you have 2 Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) in the graveyard and your opponent attacks with 1 creature.
1 or 2 Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) will go on top of your library ?
(target still available for the 2nd pharaoh?)

[Echelon]

If you have 2 Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) in the graveyard and your opponent attacks with 1 creature.
1 or 2 Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) will go on top of your library ?
(target still available for the 2nd pharaoh?)

Each Pharaoh that succesfully resolves its trigger gets put on top of your Library. No legal targets, no going back to the library.

[Final Fortune]

I think a 2/2 split of Spy/Giant is better, it's more redundant and lessens the impact of Surgical Extraction on Spy.

[Bougnat]

After the first tests I will adopt :

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Creeping-Chill-Guilds-of-Ravnica-Spoiler.pnghttp://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Lotleth-Giant-Guilds-of-Ravnica-Spoiler.png


The creeping chill make more pressure against opponant, and we can win 1 turn because of the 3-6-9 damages done when we have to count on the aggro plan. Thanks to the 2nd effect (gain of life), we can have 1 turn more before the opponent letal, witch can be enough sometime :smile:

Some match-up are increased :
Ad nauseam: decrease opponent life makes Ad nauseam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam?fromqs=true&printing=5390) worse. Increase our life make (a little bit) harder the tendrils of agony (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Tendrils%20of%20Agony?fromqs=true)
burn:It's not a deck often played, but it's good to know that the lifegain increase this match-up.



For lothleth giant, it's clearly better than Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460). Everything was said before, it's a kill just got 1 DR shorter.

[Bougnat]

Hi,

as everyone know, the ban of deathrite shaman (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman?fromqs=true) + gitaxian probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe?fromqs=true) the 06/07/18 was a revolution for the legacy, but what's the impact for Manaless dredge ?
After 2 mounths, the metagame is still not fixed, but we can have the first feedback. I have studied the top 8 lists done since the ban (2 months), and you will find under my comments. The source of top8 list is the website MTGtop8. The aim is absolutely not to say "my list is better than your", the aim is to provide as much as possible an objectif point of view of the actual metagame and discuss about our best strategy against.

Metagame of the last 2 months, based on the different top8 on tournament. 649 deck repertoried :

Aggro 42 %
Death & Taxes 51 8 %
Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
Grixis Delver 27 4 %
Dragon Stompy 16 2 %
Goblins 16 2 %
UR Delver 15 2 %
Canadian Threshold 14 2 %
Burn 14 2 %
Merfolk 9 1 %
Maverick 9 1 %
Affinity 9 1 %
Zombi Bombardment 7 1 %
Slivers 4 1 %
Delver BUG / 4c 3 0 %
Jund 3 0 %
MUD 1 0 %
Bant 1 0 %
Patriot Aggro 1 0 %
Other - Aggro 3 0 %

Control 31 %
Grixis Control 50 8 %
UWx Control 45 7 %
Lands 32 5 %
Stoneblade 32 5 %
Loam 20 3 %
Pox 6 1 %
BUG Midrange 5 1 %
Nic Fit 3 0 %
Tezzeret Control 3 0 %
Landstill 2 0 %
BUG Control 2 0 %
4c Control 1 0 %
Stax 1 0 %
Other - Control 1 0 %

Combo 27 %
Show and Tell 43 7 %
Storm 27 4 %
Reanimator 23 4 %
Dark Depths 21 3 %
Elves 14 2 %
Dredge 12 2 %
Cloudpost Ramp 9 1 %
Infect 9 1 %
Aluren 4 1 %
Enchantress 3 0 %
Mono Red Sneak Attack 2 0 %
Belcher 1 0 %
Painter 1 0 %
Food Griffin 1 0 %
Shoal Infect 1 0 %
Bomberman 1 0 %


First comments of the metagame :

- The ratio aggro/control/combo is +/- still the same. The domination of combo deck (reanimator/storm) has players though in july is not.
- Grixis is not dead ! Grixis (aggro) still exist but not as stong as before. Grixis (control) is a DTB.
- A new challenger appears : Death-shadow
- The decks already in the DTB/T1 list witch have not been modified with the ban are now in the DTB list : Death & Taxes, UWx Control, Show and Tell



To make the analyse for manaless impact, I just take in count the decks represented more than 3% :

Aggro 42 %
Death & Taxes 51 8 %
Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
Grixis Delver 27 4 %

Control 31 %
Grixis Control 50 8 %
UWx Control 45 7 %
Lands 32 5 %
Stoneblade 32 5 %
Loam 20 3 %

Combo 27 %
Show and Tell 43 7 %
Storm 27 4 %
Reanimator 23 4 %
Dark Depths 21 3 %




Death & Taxes 51 8 %
They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Recruiter%20of%20the%20Guard?fromqs=true&printing=33174) + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Remorseful%20Cleric?fromqs=true)/Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true)
Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true), 2 Rest in Peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) and 1-2 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true)
Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) is not played.
solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is really good. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) can help us.


Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Be careful when you use phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515) to have 2 dredger or 1 dredge +1 street wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith?fromqs=true) . They have 2 Reanimate (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Reanimate?fromqs=true) main deck and you can lose alone the 1st round....
Post-side, they add usually 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) . No Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), extremely rarely Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)
solution proposed: you can try force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) but with 10 counter against and 8 solution to find them I think it is useless. Their graveyard hate is not strong, we are not hard impacted. They dont have many creatures, the game is longer, the game is better for us. Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems very good to beat them. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) also, but with the risk to be countered. The gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. I have not practice enought this match-up but I'm convience It's favorable for us.


Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
The faster you are, the better it is.
solution proposed:Post-side, it's easy : they enter 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true) and you concede or they (not usualy) play Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true). I don't like Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) in this match-up because it will remove the Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true) you have. It's only my point of view, and you can play them. I prefer to be aggressive, but still block their creature to create as mutch as possible 2/2 tokens. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) are really good. The new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us: They lost a lot of life with their lands, and the damage from Creeping Chill help us to be faster.


Grixis Delver 27 4 %
You have to be very aggressive. Don't count too much on Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true) because they can sacrifice token to remove them main deck.
solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 0-1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and 2-3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) is adapted against delver of secrets (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Delver%20of%20Secrets?fromqs=true) and young pyromancer (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Young%20Pyromancer?fromqs=true)


Grixis Control 50 8 %
Nothing 1st game, should be a formality.
solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true) . Counter plan is not the best because they can cast surgical from the graveyard after. I propose to play
faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own.


UWx Control 45 7 %
1st game should be OK without problem, but.....
solution proposed: As Grixis control,Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true) . But they should also have access to 0-2 Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true) (1.1 average). I was surprised not to see rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) in the SB list.
It's hard to propose a "good" solution....
faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own, or counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) can be options. Also go as fast as possible without big modification is an option


Lands 32 5 %
horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true) on 1st game, wasteland (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland?fromqs=true) it, then life from the loam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam?fromqs=true) and play it again. With 4 gamble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gamble?fromqs=true) and 4 crop rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true), this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sphere%20of%20Resistance?fromqs=true) to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) on bojuka or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems a very nice option since we can gain life.


Stoneblade 32 5 %
As grixis control, 1st game, should be a formality.
solution proposed: post-side the games are different. They have acces to 1-2 Containment Priest and as the other control decks a pack of 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true). faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own, or counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) can be options. I have not seen any rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) in the SB.


Loam 20 3 %
The 1st will clearly depend on the build of your opponent. Some are playing 2 Scavenging Ooze (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Scavenging%20Ooze?fromqs=true) MD, some 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), some nothing. they play 2-4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith?fromqs=true) and 4 Knight of the Reliquary (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Knight%20of%20the%20Reliquary?fromqs=true) and sometime Crop Rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true). Just be the fastest as you can and hope you are on a good day ....
solution proposed: Post side, most of them will enter Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true), witch mean there is nothing to do exept concede. The best is to kill their creature before they are ruining our graveyard : Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) is the best, Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) is good but can be to small.


Show and Tell 43 7 %
The first will depend who will go faster. Having a Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) or better a Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) in hand is the best when they play show and tell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Show%20and%20Tell?fromqs=true), and hope you can win on next turn. With Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) you must have 1 progenitus (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Progenitus?fromqs=true) or equivalent in your main deck for this stategy.
solution proposed: Post side, you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. Force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) is your best friend , and you would like to have Chancellor of the Annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?fromqs=true&printing=18186) in hand to earn a little bit of time. Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is useless , nothing cost 2.
The faster will be the better.


Storm 27 4 %
nothing special on 1st, the faster will win.
solution proposed: Post side (as show and tell), you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. the counters will be your firends force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true), Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) and Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401). Contrary to show and tell deck, Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is an valable option, because you can counter an Infernal Tutor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Infernal%20Tutor?fromqs=true&printing=358)


Reanimator 23 4 %
He 's faster than you, 1st should be lost.
solution proposed: As combo deck , no graveyard hate or 1-2 cards maximum. Your best option is Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true), faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). you can also try force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) but it's worse than the others. An option also is Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628).


Dark Depths 21 3 %
they are playing main deck 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), 3-4 Crop Rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true) , 0-2 Expedition Map (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Expedition%20Map?fromqs=true)..... it's hard but can cast it only one time (no life from the loam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam?fromqs=true)). So I never activate phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515) before to be sure.
solution proposed: they will enter 2-3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). They cannot make a loop for bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), so the effect will be one time. I just enter 4 force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true), and Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) is an option, but they can protect their 20/20 token. Same comment than Lands, the gainlife of Creeping Chill is a good news for us. Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems a very nice option since we can gain life.

[Darklingske]

Lands 32 5 %
horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true) on 1st game, wasteland (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland?fromqs=true) it, then life from the loam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam?fromqs=true) and play it again. With 4 gamble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gamble?fromqs=true) and 4 crop rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true), this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sphere%20of%20Resistance?fromqs=true) to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) on bojuka or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems a very nice option since we can gain life.

Great write up! Nicely done! But a small remark concerning your solution for Lands: Pharaoh is pretty useless against Marit as she is indestructible.

[mistercakes]

Hi,

as everyone know, the ban of deathrite shaman (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman?fromqs=true) + gitaxian probe (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian%20Probe?fromqs=true) the 06/07/18 was a revolution for the legacy, but what's the impact for Manaless dredge ?
After 2 mounths, the metagame is still not fixed, but we can have the first feedback. I have studied the top 8 lists done since the ban (2 months), and you will find under my comments. The source of top8 list is the website MTGtop8. The aim is absolutely not to say "my list is better than your", the aim is to provide as much as possible an objectif point of view of the actual metagame and discuss about our best strategy against.

Metagame of the last 2 months, based on the different top8 on tournament. 649 deck repertoried :

Aggro 42 %
Death & Taxes 51 8 %
Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
Grixis Delver 27 4 %
Dragon Stompy 16 2 %
Goblins 16 2 %
UR Delver 15 2 %
Canadian Threshold 14 2 %
Burn 14 2 %
Merfolk 9 1 %
Maverick 9 1 %
Affinity 9 1 %
Zombi Bombardment 7 1 %
Slivers 4 1 %
Delver BUG / 4c 3 0 %
Jund 3 0 %
MUD 1 0 %
Bant 1 0 %
Patriot Aggro 1 0 %
Other - Aggro 3 0 %

Control 31 %
Grixis Control 50 8 %
UWx Control 45 7 %
Lands 32 5 %
Stoneblade 32 5 %
Loam 20 3 %
Pox 6 1 %
BUG Midrange 5 1 %
Nic Fit 3 0 %
Tezzeret Control 3 0 %
Landstill 2 0 %
BUG Control 2 0 %
4c Control 1 0 %
Stax 1 0 %
Other - Control 1 0 %

Combo 27 %
Show and Tell 43 7 %
Storm 27 4 %
Reanimator 23 4 %
Dark Depths 21 3 %
Elves 14 2 %
Dredge 12 2 %
Cloudpost Ramp 9 1 %
Infect 9 1 %
Aluren 4 1 %
Enchantress 3 0 %
Mono Red Sneak Attack 2 0 %
Belcher 1 0 %
Painter 1 0 %
Food Griffin 1 0 %
Shoal Infect 1 0 %
Bomberman 1 0 %


First comments of the metagame :

- The ratio aggro/control/combo is +/- still the same. The domination of combo deck (reanimator/storm) has players though in july is not.
- Grixis is not dead ! Grixis (aggro) still exist but not as stong as before. Grixis (control) is a DTB.
- A new challenger appears : Death-shadow
- The decks already in the DTB/T1 list witch have not been modified with the ban are now in the DTB list : Death & Taxes, UWx Control, Show and Tell



To make the analyse for manaless impact, I just take in count the decks represented more than 3% :

Aggro 42 %
Death & Taxes 51 8 %
Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
Grixis Delver 27 4 %

Control 31 %
Grixis Control 50 8 %
UWx Control 45 7 %
Lands 32 5 %
Stoneblade 32 5 %
Loam 20 3 %

Combo 27 %
Show and Tell 43 7 %
Storm 27 4 %
Reanimator 23 4 %
Dark Depths 21 3 %




Death & Taxes 51 8 %
They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Recruiter%20of%20the%20Guard?fromqs=true&printing=33174) + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Remorseful%20Cleric?fromqs=true)/Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true)
Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true), 2 Rest in Peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) and 1-2 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true)
Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) is not played.
solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is really good. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) can help us.


Death's Shadow 42 6 %
Be careful when you use phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515) to have 2 dredger or 1 dredge +1 street wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith?fromqs=true) . They have 2 Reanimate (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Reanimate?fromqs=true) main deck and you can lose alone the 1st round....
Post-side, they add usually 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) . No Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), extremely rarely Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)
solution proposed: you can try force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) but with 10 counter against and 8 solution to find them I think it is useless. Their graveyard hate is not strong, we are not hard impacted. They dont have many creatures, the game is longer, the game is better for us. Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems very good to beat them. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) also, but with the risk to be countered. The gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. I have not practice enought this match-up but I'm convience It's favorable for us.


Eldrazi Aggro 29 4 %
The faster you are, the better it is.
solution proposed:Post-side, it's easy : they enter 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true) and you concede or they (not usualy) play Faerie Macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true). I don't like Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) in this match-up because it will remove the Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true) you have. It's only my point of view, and you can play them. I prefer to be aggressive, but still block their creature to create as mutch as possible 2/2 tokens. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) are really good. The new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us: They lost a lot of life with their lands, and the damage from Creeping Chill help us to be faster.


Grixis Delver 27 4 %
You have to be very aggressive. Don't count too much on Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true) because they can sacrifice token to remove them main deck.
solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 0-1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) and 2-3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) is adapted against delver of secrets (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Delver%20of%20Secrets?fromqs=true) and young pyromancer (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Young%20Pyromancer?fromqs=true)


Grixis Control 50 8 %
Nothing 1st game, should be a formality.
solution proposed:Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true) . Counter plan is not the best because they can cast surgical from the graveyard after. I propose to play
faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own.


UWx Control 45 7 %
1st game should be OK without problem, but.....
solution proposed: As Grixis control,Post-side, they enter 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true) . But they should also have access to 0-2 Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true) (1.1 average). I was surprised not to see rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) in the SB list.
It's hard to propose a "good" solution....
faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own, or counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) can be options. Also go as fast as possible without big modification is an option


Lands 32 5 %
horrible, they have access to 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true) on 1st game, wasteland (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland?fromqs=true) it, then life from the loam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam?fromqs=true) and play it again. With 4 gamble (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Gamble?fromqs=true) and 4 crop rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true), this mean they have 9 game breaker main deck !
solution proposed: They have solution main deck against us, the good news is they will not enter more graveyard hate. Just 4 Sphere of Resistance (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sphere%20of%20Resistance?fromqs=true) to prevent us from playing cards. faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) on bojuka or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) on the 1 of the 3 cards is a good option. If you are afraid of token 20/20 flying marit lage, you can try Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) but I'm convicied the 1st options are better. Last detail, the gainlife of the new card Creeping Chill is also a good news for us. Their creature is 20/20, this mean if your gain 3 life you will be alive at least one turn more, witch could be enought to have a blocker on board (Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)), or just win on your turn. This is priceless ! Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems a very nice option since we can gain life.


Stoneblade 32 5 %
As grixis control, 1st game, should be a formality.
solution proposed: post-side the games are different. They have acces to 1-2 Containment Priest and as the other control decks a pack of 3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true), and they play main deck 3-4 Snapcaster Mage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage?fromqs=true). faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) (cannot be countered) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true) to remove their own, or counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) can be options. I have not seen any rest in peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) in the SB.


Loam 20 3 %
The 1st will clearly depend on the build of your opponent. Some are playing 2 Scavenging Ooze (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Scavenging%20Ooze?fromqs=true) MD, some 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), some nothing. they play 2-4 Green Sun's Zenith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith?fromqs=true) and 4 Knight of the Reliquary (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Knight%20of%20the%20Reliquary?fromqs=true) and sometime Crop Rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true). Just be the fastest as you can and hope you are on a good day ....
solution proposed: Post side, most of them will enter Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true), witch mean there is nothing to do exept concede. The best is to kill their creature before they are ruining our graveyard : Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) is the best, Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) is good but can be to small.


Show and Tell 43 7 %
The first will depend who will go faster. Having a Whirlpool Rider (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Whirlpool%20Rider?fromqs=true&printing=9567) or better a Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) in hand is the best when they play show and tell (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Show%20and%20Tell?fromqs=true), and hope you can win on next turn. With Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true) you must have 1 progenitus (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Progenitus?fromqs=true) or equivalent in your main deck for this stategy.
solution proposed: Post side, you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. Force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) is your best friend , and you would like to have Chancellor of the Annex (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Chancellor%20of%20the%20Annex?fromqs=true&printing=18186) in hand to earn a little bit of time. Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is useless , nothing cost 2.
The faster will be the better.


Storm 27 4 %
nothing special on 1st, the faster will win.
solution proposed: Post side (as show and tell), you will have sometime 1 Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true), sometime 1 Surgical Extraction, but not a big graveyard hate. the counters will be your firends force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true), Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) and Mindbreak Trap (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Mindbreak%20Trap?fromqs=true&printing=16401). Contrary to show and tell deck, Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is an valable option, because you can counter an Infernal Tutor (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Infernal%20Tutor?fromqs=true&printing=358)


Reanimator 23 4 %
He 's faster than you, 1st should be lost.
solution proposed: As combo deck , no graveyard hate or 1-2 cards maximum. Your best option is Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true), faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true) or Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). you can also try force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) but it's worse than the others. An option also is Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628).


Dark Depths 21 3 %
they are playing main deck 1 bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), 3-4 Crop Rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true) , 0-2 Expedition Map (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Expedition%20Map?fromqs=true)..... it's hard but can cast it only one time (no life from the loam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Life%20from%20the%20Loam?fromqs=true)). So I never activate phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515) before to be sure.
solution proposed: they will enter 2-3 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true). They cannot make a loop for bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true), so the effect will be one time. I just enter 4 force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true), and Snapback (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapback?fromqs=true&printing=628) is an option, but they can protect their 20/20 token. Same comment than Lands, the gainlife of Creeping Chill is a good news for us. Vengeful Pharaoh (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Vengeful%20Pharaoh?fromqs=true&printing=18732) seems a very nice option since we can gain life.

great data. can you post all the non-manaless info in a new thread in the community thread? i think it would be really a great resource for the entire site.

[Draggo]

Death & Taxes 51 8 %
They usually play main deck 2 Recruiter of the Guard (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Recruiter%20of%20the%20Guard?fromqs=true&printing=33174) + 1 solution as Remorseful Cleric (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Remorseful%20Cleric?fromqs=true)/Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true)
Post-side, they add : 2 Containment Priest (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Containment%20Priest?fromqs=true), 2 Rest in Peace (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Rest%20in%20Peace?fromqs=true) and 1-2 Surgical Extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true)
Grafdigger's Cage (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger%27s%20Cage?fromqs=true) is not played.
solution proposed: Their threats cost 2, the classic counter pack force of will (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will?fromqs=true) + Disrupting Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Disrupting%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13825) is really good. Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) and Sickening Shoal (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Sickening%20Shoal?fromqs=true&printing=13824) can help us.



Very intresting data overal, even when I'm not playing manaless myself.

Don't forget that D&T got Thalia main deck to mess up the combo and disruption plan. Playing D&T vs. Manaless I always eager to drop Thalia asap and then find a Batterskull (and now also Cleric) to stabilize. I think you should try to hit for Thalia with your discards and then try to swarm-up with Ichorids and Birdges. The counter pack out of the SB should be more usefull then the removal as most D&T only have 1 Cavern and proberly board out Vials, as your counter pack also hits Thalia and your removal won't.

[ahg113]

Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.

[Echelon]

Played it yesterday.

It mostly makes the deck a lirtle more aggressive. I like it. Not switching it out just yet.

[ahg113]

Played it yesterday.

It mostly makes the deck a lirtle more aggressive. I like it. Not switching it out just yet.

Have a decklist to share? Did you include Lotleth Giant as well?

And embarrassing question- Lotleth Giant counts itself when being returned to play from the graveyard, just as Golgari Grave-Troll does, correct?

[notkevin]

Have a decklist to share? Did you include Lotleth Giant as well?

And embarrassing question- Lotleth Giant counts itself when being returned to play from the graveyard, just as Golgari Grave-Troll does, correct?

For the second question, unfortunately the answer is no - Lotleth Giant's trigger is an etb trigger, which means it only goes on the stack once it's fully left the graveyard and entered the battlefield; for GGT, it's an "as it enters" check, so it has to derive that information _before_ it would enter the battlefield. (One way to see the difference is to consider if GGT were a regular ETB - in that case, it'd just simply die before the ETB to put counters would resolve!)

[Echelon]

@ahg113: It was on the previous page :tongue:


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Creeping Chill
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Only played a few games. Won all through beatdown, so I didn't DR the Giant yet.

[slave]

Well it seems they've finally given us some new cards to ponder, and taken away one of our first choice cards in Probe.:cry:
I'm currently using Chancellor in that slot, but I'm testing with a deck running 4x Bloodghast in the probe slot, with 3x Dakmor Salvage replacing Shambling Shell.
So far I like it, mainly cos I hate taxing effects a LOT.


Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.
I've been playing Manaless with a few different cards lately at my local. CC is cute, but a marginal choice IMHO. I'd pop this card in the win-more category.
Reason being, Manaless Dredge as a combo deck is regularly too slow, and now with Probe gone, our speed and consistency has taken a hit.
CC lessens the harm of cards like Street Wraith, but it doesn't decrease our time-to-kill.
This card dilutes our deck, so stuff like Nether Shadow takes longer to hit the field, so our combo may take longer to assemble.
I'm gonna keep playing with it for now, but I'll probably end up cutting it.

RE: Lotleth Giant VS Flayer of the Hatebound.
I have to be honest on this one - I'm not sure it's better, even if we are running Balustrade Spy.
In my Spy build, these cards both play out the same way, you win that turn, even if GGT gets exiled. SO really, which art do you like better?
The main difference for me, Icky works with Giant.
I've done a fair bit of testing with this one with different targets (Spy, Whirpool Rider, Griselbrand etc.), and I'm yet to make up my mind.

Anyone playing with anything else from the new set here in Manaless?

[WarpWorld]

Has anyone played this recently? Curious if Creeping Chill has been worth it.

I have been playing with it over chancellor and it has been better than I expected so far. The extra damage makes us more aggressive as Echelon said. Each cc is one less ichorid we need to connect with. It also shortens the clock and make giant a real threat without having to combo out. On the other hand the life gain has mattered more than I thought it would. Not so much because of street wraith but because being at more than 20 means marit lage can't just kill you and being at more than 22 means Emmy and Gris can't get you in the sneak show match up.

[Michael Keller]

What's really funny is that Noxious Revival turns into a de facto Lightning Bolt with Creeping Chill.

[WarpWorld]

What's really funny is that Noxious Revival turns into a de facto Lightning Bolt with Creeping Chill.Also true for the ones that get stuck in hand because you can pitch them to phanta. I have been playing revival out of the board it might be enough to consider main decking. I don't think we want more than 2 though.

[Michael Keller]

Also true for the ones that get stuck in hand because you can pitch them to phanta. I have been playing revival out of the board it might be enough to consider main decking. I don't think we want more than 2 though.

I think if you're running Chill, then playing a full set is fine. I mean, Noxious Revival is a good enough card that it has a wider application and utility than most other cards used in its slot, so it's worth entertaining. Remember, mulliganing isn't something this deck wants to do often, if at all, so it's something to consider (meaning playing a full set to hit them in the opener).

Creeping Chill is absolutely disgusting against Shadow, for what it's worth. They're already driving their life total into oblivion, or low enough where this card becomes extremely relevant.

[NecroYawgmoth]

The real question is how to fit 4 Chill and 4 Noxious along with the FoWs...

[mistercakes]

What's really funny is that Noxious Revival turns into a de facto Lightning Bolt with Creeping Chill.

excluding when you have chill in opening hand and need to phantasmo it to the graveyard, what is the application for noxious and creeping chill?

[WarpWorld]

The real question is how to fit 4 Chill and 4 Noxious along with the FoWs...
That seems ambitious for the main deck. I have only been playing with FoW when I run riders otherwise the blue count is generally low in spy builds without probe.


excluding when you have chill in opening hand and need to phantasmo it to the graveyard, what is the application for noxious and creeping chill?
It isn't the two together but separately. Revival saves a card or takes our opponents target in matchups like reanimator. I don't think it is better than faerie. Faerie and revival are fighting for the same spot and I think faerie is the better card.

[Michael Keller]

excluding when you have chill in opening hand and need to phantasmo it to the graveyard, what is the application for noxious and creeping chill?

To put Creeping Chill back on top of your deck, dredge it and have your opponent take three more damage. That is a secondary application. Noxious Revival has utility otherwise in Manaless Dredge fighting against Surgical Extraction, fighting opposing reanimation strategies on turn zero, etc.

What I'm saying is that if you're using C.C. as a card in the framework of the deck, then Noxious Revival becomes an additional "Lightning Bolt" effect with Chill, Ichorid, Amalgam, etc.

[Echelon]

Sure, but what would you cut to facilitate it?

[mistercakes]

I've never played with chill, but from the text it looks like it is a one time thing, exiled from the game. Revival should only impact manaless dredge with chill if both are in opening hand. (And you find a way to discard it)

[WarpWorld]

I've never played with chill, but from the text it looks like it is a one time thing, exiled from the game. Revival should only impact manaless dredge with chill if both are in opening hand. (And you find a way to discard it)

That's why I think it is too narrow in the main deck. Right now my list looks like this.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Faerie Macabre

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB: ***
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Noxious Revival
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Contagion
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Vengeful Pharaoh


As I have said in my list I would cut the fairies for noxious but I think fairies better game 1 where we don't have to deal with Surgical.

[Echelon]

I run almost the exact same 60. -2 Faeries, +1 Nether Shadow and +1 Dread Return

[WarpWorld]

I run almost the exact same 60. -2 Faeries, +1 Nether Shadow and +1 Dread ReturnIt feels strong. My sideboard is always up in the air.

[StuffyD20]

That's why I think it is too narrow in the main deck. Right now my list looks like this.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

3 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Faerie Macabre

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

SB: ***
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Noxious Revival
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Contagion
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Vengeful Pharaoh


As I have said in my list I would cut the fairies for noxious but I think fairies better game 1 where we don't have to deal with Surgical.

Could you elaborate please on what you'd side in/out for different matchups?

[FTW]

To put Creeping Chill back on top of your deck, dredge it and have your opponent take three more damage. That is a secondary application.

Put Creeping Chill from *where* back on top of your deck? Note the card tag for RTFC purposes.

If you Dredged it and drained them, it gets exiled. It's not in the GY to Revival back. If you Dredged it and didn't drain them, then sure you can Revival it back to drain them, but that seems redundant. Just drain the first time.

The only way Creeping Chill is in your GY is if you discarded it from opening hand (e.g. with Phantasmagorian). This Noxious Revival + Chill combo is only live if you get an opener with BOTH Creeping Chill and Noxious Revival and you had a window to dump a non-Dredge card without slowing down your engine. That's a really narrow case to hit them for an extra 3, but it costs you 3-4 card slots in the deck (hurting consistency).

Revival is good in the SB to fight Surgical and troll BR Reanimator when they try to go off on turn 1. Maindeck it seems weak. When you aren't using it as a GY trick, the best synergy it has with the core engine is recurring Narcomoebas (to get more zombies or Amalgam triggers) or saving Bridge when an opponent's creature dies.

[Michael Keller]

The overall utility was why it was being tested, not just with Creeping Chill discarded with Phantasmagorian. That's what I was referring to, but it's still a Bolt by itself.

[FTW]

The overall utility was why it was being tested, not just with Creeping Chill discarded with Phantasmagorian. That's what I was referring to, but it's still a Bolt by itself.

The point is it's not a Bolt by itself. Excluding the Phantasmo + Chill in the opener scenario, it doesn't work as a Bolt.

The rest of the utlity is fine, maybe justifying 4 copies in the SB, but the interaction you're describing doesn't work.

[Michael Keller]

The point is it's not a Bolt by itself. Excluding the Phantasmo + Chill in the opener scenario, it doesn't work as a Bolt.

I think we're not on the same page. Noxious Revival only works as a Bolt when it's discarded with Phantasmagorian and the situation allows for Revival to put it back on top if it was discarded - I know that (because you exile it to dome someone). It's strictly utility in every sense otherwise. So yes, to your final sentence - I know it's a Bolt only in that situation. My point was that it has that added ability that ties in to its overall utility.

EDIT: When I said it's a "Bolt by itself," I meant Creeping Chill - not Noxious Revival.

[hellhound]

hi folks,
just made top 8 last sunday in a 55 people tournament. Here's the list i've used:

4 chancellor W
4 chills
4 therapy
3 DReturn
1 SShell
4 GGT
4 StImp
4 Thugs
4 Narco
4 Ichos
4 Nether Shadow
1 Lotleth Giant (gonna switch back to Flayer)
4 Amalgams
3 Spies
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Wraith
4 Bridges

SB:
4 MBtrap
4 Faerie
3 Contagion
2 Vengeful Phara
1 Progenitus
1 Ashen Rider

turn 1 vs UWblade
won 2-0 through 3 surgicals postboard
in 2 VP, 3 contagion // out 1 Giant, 3 spies, 1 DRet (expected cont. priest in some numbers)

turn 2 vs EsperBlade
won 2-0 through 3 surgicals postboard (again)
in//out same as before

turn 3 vs MUD stompy
I.D.
after winning g1, he won g2 by landing a B Leyline, g3 i offered the draw he refuses and mulled to 6; offered ID again and refuses.... so on till he mulled to two and before watching the cards he accepted the draw
in//out none

turn 4 vs AK Miracles
won 2-0 won g1, on g2 he sees 1 surgical only and manascrewed at 2 lands. got stomped pretty soon
in//out same as before

turn 5 vs Canadian UGR
won 2-1 after winning g1, got an awful situation in g2 where i've no wraith nor phantasmag., just 2 GGT + 2 Stimp and he had double surgical and started with a flipped delver so every time got a dredger extracter he also got a free timewalk. g3 got a wraith to protect a dredger and comboed him into oblivion
in 2 VP // out 2 chills

turn 6 ID vs d&t

so undefeated 4-0-2 got into top 8

Top8 lost 1-2 to a human aggro who won g1 with me not finding a dredger in top 12 cards, he lost g2 mulliganing into oblivion and won g2 sticking 2 Cpriest and i won't see a VP nor a contagion to remove'em. found out that he sided in 4 B leyline + 4 Cpriest
in//out same as turn 1

TBO the only change i'll do is to switch back to flayer the giant. i thougth that giant will be able to shave a slot by going down to 3 Dret cause you don't need to return a troll, found out that having chills returning only one flayer is enough (12 dmg by chilling out, 4 dmg by flayer and 12 dmg by amalgams eot are enough).
So i'll go back to flayer which is a bit more flexible than giant.

About the sb, i'm not sure about the rider... maybe could be correct to turn it into the 4th contagion. Never used a trap nor a faerie but those are dedicated to specific MU that i didn't met.
Watching the meta there i've seen tons of surgicals, some Cpriest in W decks and at least 4 people on 55 which run a full set of B leylines. No relics, no cages, maybe a couple of RiPs.

Really feels like the deck can absorb a huge amount of extractions due to his redundancy.
TBO i just prefer to fold to leyline instead of committing the whole SB to fight it. About FOW and blue set, i already felt a bit overcommitting before bans, right now i actually don't see how it's possible to sustain FOW with even less blue pitches.

cya guys

[Emeraldjsk]

4-0 this week at one of the larger venues in the seattle area with this list:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard:
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Force of Will
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sickening Shoal

I did not drop a game all night and the deck felt great. Not sure if I boarded well, but the deck came through regardless.

[ESG]

4-0 this week at one of the larger venues in the seattle area with this list:

Congrats, Eli, and welcome to The Source! What were your matchups?

[Echelon]

Congrats on the result!

[Emeraldjsk]

Congrats, Eli, and welcome to The Source! What were your matchups?

Thank you it was a lot of fun! My match ups were:
Round 1: Miracles
Round 2: D&T with red splash
Round 3: Temur (I think, I never actually got to see their game plan I combo'd too fast)
Round 4: Grixis Control

[Lav Dafka]

Hi all, just made the leap from goldfishing and announcing triggers to an empty room, to playing manaless (green) in paper against real people last night. Despite multiple horrible punts and lackluster play, I managed to go 2-1, and then ID to get my entry back (my reaction: ecstatic). I've seen so much skepticism of the deck's viability, but at least on a local level I'm myself somewhat skeptical of the skepticism. On any given night it seems like half the room are on some sort of "fair" blue deck, and the rest are often a bit janky or fringe.

I lost round 1, and then both round 2 and round 3 my opponent put me on the play. It still wasn't enough to lose any game 1s, thankfully.

[Echelon]

Why care about how others perceive your deck? You do you man. And enjoy being underestimated XD.

[Lav Dafka]

Why care about how others perceive your deck? You do you man. And enjoy being underestimated XD.

Hear, hear!

FWIW, I don't know if there was much underestimating going on at the LGS last night. I kept hearing random people around the room saying "manaless dredge!" like a sort of "hide your wives and your daughters, grab your pitchforks, say your prayers, the Beast is back" reaction. I think I need more practice before that reaction is really justified, though...

[Echelon]

I kept hearing random people around the room saying "manaless dredge!" like a sort of "hide your wives and your daughters, grab your pitchforks, say your prayers, the Beast is back" reaction.

Now that's a proper reaction :laugh:

[Ronald Deuce]

3–0 at the local yesterday running this list:

4x GGT
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
2x Shambling Shell

4x Nether Shadow
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below

3x Dread Return
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Lotleth Giant

3x Lion's Eye Diamond. Because I'm a madman and they were lying around.

SB:

4x Force of Will
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Disrupting Shoal
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Ashen Rider
1x Dakmor Salvage (should be Leyline #4; I used to have Balustrade Spies in the deck)
2x Faithless Looting

Lost a game off of BReanimator but somehow managed to pull through. Leyline is a good card. LED felt great, too; opened some interesting lines in testing (none of which actually happened in the tournament) with hands like, LED, Street Wraith, Stinkweed Imp/Golgari Thug, Other Dredger, etc. Can get us a flying "deathtouch" chump or a Narco recycler and fill our 'yard at the same time. I also found the opportunity to start the engines on the play was relevant, though it didn't come up more than once. For what it's worth, it also gives us an opportunity to actually pay our taxes.

G2 against Reanimator, having Creeping Chill might've saved me. My opponent brought himself down to 4 after a Reanimate on Griselbrand and a Bargain activation, but then he landed Elesh Norn and blew up all my stuff. Curious as to how people are finding Chill now that it's been on the block for a bit.

I'm pretty inexperienced with this deck (I've played a fair bit of LED-Loot Dredge), and I was wondering whether anyone had sideboarding suggestions. I get that we need Forces and Leylines against stuff like Reanimator, but in my other matchups I didn't find there was anything I wanted to cut. Never brought in the Shoals or the Mindbreak Traps. And yeah, I know that there are some experimental slots in my 'board to go with the Diamonds, but as as someone who's never picked up Contagions, I don't really know what else I should run. (For that matter, I'm not sure how often or when I'd want Contagion except against D&T.) All in all, Reanimator was the only matchup where I felt the need to 'board in anything, though I'll admit that I really lucked out in game 2, round 3 against Burn. He hammered me to one life, then sat and topdecked lands for a few turns while the horde (rather festively) snowballed.

EDIT: And Merry Christmas Pregame, everybody!

[GoldenCid]

3x Lion's Eye Diamond. Because I'm a madman and they were lying around.


2x Faithless Looting

!

Pretty insane! :smile:

[Whoshim]

I decided to pick up Magic again after a 7 year absence. When I left, Manaless was just making a splash. I thought it was pretty cool. Upon returning, I decided to run it. I have been working on a conventional build, tweaking things to my playstyle. However, I have looked through a lot of the cards available to us, and I was thinking that a red build could be interesting.

4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Bedlam Reveler
4 Blazing Shoal
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

So, what we lose from this build: fewer Ichorid targets, less consistency in dredging through the entire deck compared to Balustrade Spy/Griselbrand, no counterspells (though the board could include enough to flip this to a blue package).

What is gained: the potential to start with a creature on board, the potential to blow out the opposition with a pumped hasty creature, and Bedlam Reveler's discard then draw 3 is pretty nice.

I don't think it is as consistently good as the current builds, but it is something to keep an eye on as new sets are released.

Did I miss anything that would make the red build better?

[Echelon]

Well... Prized Amalgam is a thing now. And there's Creeping Chill, which is pretty good.

I also don't see why you'd run Bedlam Reveller over "I win". Colour matters very little in Manaless (unless you want to support FoWs).

[Whoshim]

I don't have FoW, so I can't really run the blue version. My conventional list looks like this:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam

4 Urza's Bauble
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ashen Rider
4 Balustrade Spy

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ashen Rider
1 Realm Razer
1 Serra Avatar
2 Noxious Revival
1 Contagion

I am still working out the sideboard. Also, the baubles and Ashen Rider in the main can be switched out.

I like Prized Amalgam a lot, but 4x felt like too many, though I might go back to that.

Creeping Chill has felt a little like 'win more' to me, but I haven't been able to test much. It does nothing if drawn in the opening hand, and while it does do damage when dredged, if I DR the Spy, that damage doesn't matter. Again though, I would be fine taking the baubles out for Chills.

I mostly included the baubles because I feel like they help make crazy turn 3s more consistent. Turn 1, DDD. Turn 2, play a bauble if a dredger is already in the graveyard. Crack it. Turn 3, dredge 2x.

[RandomUser]

I have a question regarding the average build of this deck.

Why do most decklists I see run Whirlpool Rider over Whirlpool Drake?

I recently bought into manaless, and I have been playing it online a lot. I really enjoy the deck, but I have been looking around the internet, and haven't found an answer to my question.
Comparing the 2 cards, Whirlpool Drake seems (to me) strictly better than Whirlpool Rider, in the context of this deck. Whirlpool Rider is a 1/1 that has the effect of Winds of Change for your hand, and nothing more. Whirlpool Drake is a 2/2 Flyer that has that effect when it enters, and also when it dies.

Since you will never cast either of these, and instead use Dread Return to reanimate the creature, why wouldn't the better body, and the additional death effect be preferred?

I have been in situations where I Dread Return a Whirlpool Rider, and I only have 3ish cards in hand, due to the fact that I discarded to Phantasmagorians ability, and I didn't dredge as much as I would have liked. If I ran Whirlpool Drake instead, then casting cabal therapy or dread return via flashback afterwards would result in more dredging.

Any insight on this would be appreciated! :)

[Whoshim]

Why do most decklists I see run Whirlpool Rider over Whirlpool Drake? )

Disrupting Shoal allows you to exile Whirlpool Rider to counter a 2 mana spell - Rest in Peace, Thalia, etc. Drake costs 4 mana, and is therefore not as useful.

EDIT: A question of my own. In my list, I have 4 baubles. I was wondering if the following would be a worthwhile replacement (maybe they should just be in the board):

1 Magister of Worth
1 Bane of Progress
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Shambling Shell (for an extra dredger) or 1 Sadistic Hypnotist

The Magister of Worth would allow the Flayer and Flame-Kin to come down (and Spy if we have not already played one). The Bane of Progress would clear any Ensnaring Bridges, etc.

Generally, the Spy into Flayer plan seems fine, but there are some other things that could ruin our day.

[RandomUser]

Disrupting Shoal allows you to exile Whirlpool Rider to counter a 2 mana spell - Rest in Peace, Thalia, etc. Drake costs 4 mana, and is therefore not as useful.

Ok, that makes sense.

I run FoW over Disrupting Shoal, because I find that FoW is better in many circumstances. I would imagine that WhirlPool Drake would be a better card to run, if that is the only advantage to running Rider.
I assume that Shoal is ran for budget reasons, as the 1 point life loss in 99% of games is irrelevant.

Thank you for your insight Whoshim!

[Echelon]

@Whoshim It's the same problem. You're looking to exchange I win for something else. Don't.

[Whoshim]

@Whoshim It's the same problem. You're looking to exchange I win for something else. Don't.

Okay. I have a more focused sideboard now (to go with the deck I posted above):

4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Contagion
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Serra Avatar

How do you feel about Lotleth Giant over Flayer in the main deck? There are corner cases where one or the other is better. I have been out of Magic for a while, so I don't know which one to go with.

Concerning the sideboard, is there anything I should switch around? Contagion can pop 2 creatures, but Shoal gives the ability to take out Elesh Norn, which may be more important now.

Thanks for your help.

[Echelon]

Chill is pretty good. Last week it helped me fight through a Grafdigger's Cage(!) with my 2 lone zombie tokens.

As for Giant or Flayer, both are fine. Flayer is probably more robust (and got a boost from Chill) but Giant might shorten the combo kill by one card.

[GoldenCid]

:smile:

[hellhound]

Chill is pretty good. Last week it helped me fight through a Grafdigger's Cage(!) with my 2 lone zombie tokens.

As for Giant or Flayer, both are fine. Flayer is probably more robust (and got a boost from Chill) but Giant might shorten the combo kill by one card.

hi, to be fair in a deck with chill and spy neither flayer requires extra d.returns:
mill the deck with spy [DR 1]
chills for 9-12 dmg
return flayer [DR 2], triggers amalgams
flayer shoots 4 dmg - total 13-16
cabal therapy if required sac flayer 5 dmg - total 18-21
eot return amalgams 9-12 dmg - total 27-33 dmg

giant needs 2 D.return too (spy+giant), but flayer has more flex imho

[Echelon]

And that's why I said Flayer got a boost w/ the introduction of Chill.

Congrats, you got it.

[Ronald Deuce]

My usual caveat: I'm pretty inexperienced with this deck, though I've played a fair bit of LED Dredge.

Three things strike me about Flayer and Chill: The first is that neither card fuels Ichorid. So they may be better for combo-finishes, but they're worse than Lotleth or just totally dead against any kind of taxing or countermagic. The second is that I can't (off the top of my head) think of cards against which we'd want Flayer that wouldn't just shut us down completely (negating the effect of a Dread Return and a Flayer to begin with). There's always Yixlid Jailer, but I've literally never seen that card played in any format of Magic since it came out. The third is that Chill seems great for certain things like fighting Cage and Elesh Norn, but I don't know that that makes it better than what people would replace with it. Notably, it's not a creature and it doesn't do anything to fuel Lotleth or any of our recursive creatures. Anybody have some input there? I tried to pick them up before my last two local tournaments (3–0 and 1–2), but the store was sold out and nobody seemed to have any Chills.

I guess there's a fourth thing, which is that I'm still kicking around Lion's Eye Diamonds for the flex spots, but that's just me being me—er, I being myself. Anyway, don't mean to dump on either Flayer or Chill (again, I've been looking for Chills and I already have a Flayer). Just interested in hearing input from people with more experience.

[kombatkiwi]

but flayer has more flex imho

What does this actually mean?
Presumably you are playing the exact same list with either 1 Flayer or 1 Giant

In terms of combo kill:
(1) Flayer: Higher damage ceiling with undying + return amalgams + potential DR targeting GGT (or at least this is what I am assuming, but haven't exactly counted it up)
(2) Giant: 1-shot effect not disrupted by e.g. Swords to Plowshares

In terms of synergy with the rest of the deck:
(3) Giant: Black creature for Ichorid
(4) Flayer: Probably a better DR target in a midgame situation where your entire deck is not in your graveyard? Can flashback therapy for 'free' (undying) and can shoot any target (creatures/PWs) ["more flex?"]

I assume that last line is the main reason why people would prefer Flayer. Both reasons (1) and (2) seem pretty marginal, because lifegain is not that common and you can play around STP with therapy anyway. It doesn't seem like you would often use Flayer on things other than your opp's face but I guess it could come up, and having 1 extra black creature for ichorid probably doesn't make much of a difference.

[Echelon]

@Ronald Deuce: Creeping Chill not feeding Ichorid isn't important. The other thing you'd run in that slot is Chancellor of the Annex, which doesn't feed Ichorid either.

On the Giant and Flayer - Giant is probably the fastest route to a kill but Flayer is a little bit more robust vs. stuff like Stifle. In general it'll probably won't matter all that much which of the 2 you run. By the time you can DR either you'll probably win regardless.

[Ronald Deuce]

@Ronald Deuce: Creeping Chill not feeding Ichorid isn't important. The other thing you'd run in that slot is Chancellor of the Annex, which doesn't feed Ichorid either.

Do you run Chill in the Chancellor slots because they are both somewhat flexible, or do they serve the same purpose as a clock-extender? Thanks for the response!


On the Giant and Flayer - Giant is probably the fastest route to a kill but Flayer is a little bit more robust vs. stuff like Stifle. In general it'll probably won't matter all that much which of the 2 you run. By the time you can DR either you'll probably win regardless.

And of course, I forgot about Stifle :| Yeah, I was wondering because both Giant and Flayer feel like one-shot KOs.

[Echelon]

It's b/c those are the somewhat flex slots. Chancellor does what it's intended for only about 40% of the time while you'll have all 4 of your Chills in your library 60% of the time. Chill just "works" more frequently than Chancellor does, which is one reason for me to include it - less cards that do nothing in most situations. I'd rather have a Lightning Helix than nothing at all (which are roughly the choices at hand).

[gRR!!]

"Sons of The Cabal!
Of Golgari!
My brothers.
I see in your sideboards the same fear that would take the heart of me.
A day may come when the courage of Zombies fails, when we forsake our triggers and pay mana for casting our spells, but it is not this day.
An hour of Leylines and Grafdigger's Cages when the Age of Zombies comes crashing down, but it is not this day!
This day we dredge!
By all that you hold dear on this good graveyard, I bid you stand, Horde of 2/2 Zombies!"

Hey there folks,

This Saturday I've made 12th position in the 1st Catalan Legacy League tournament of the year with our beloved Manaless Dredge. We have been 59 players, and I've ended 4-2 after losing my 6th round win-and-in vs UB Shadow. Here's my decklist (pretty standard one):

Maindeck:
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Progenitus
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
4 Dread Return
Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Mindbreak Trap

I wanted to write a small report, but I've forgot my notes at home so I'll just share some thoughts and doubts instead:

* I lost 1st round vs Grixis Control; his only hate was 2 Surgical Extraction and 1 Cage, and he hit both Surgicals early in both post-board games (third one was hilarious: I discarded GGT in my first turn, he Extracted it, then I discarded StImp, he Extracted it and then I discarded Shambling Shell and he Snapcaster-Extracted it too). Variance happens, I suppose.
* Then I won four straight matches: 2-0 vs Turbo Depths (where I comboed him extra fast both games and he didn't find green producers to Crop Rotate into Bojuka), 2-0 vs Goblins (he didn't found his otherwise scarce hate, in fact he flooded terribly both games), 2-1 vs Omni-Tell (where he was faster than me game 2 and he mulliganed to 4 game 3), and 2-0 vs Canadian (he didn't found his hate in time).
* After round 5, I was last classified at 4-1, so I had to play round 6 vs UB Shadow. He knew what I were playing, won the dice roll, put me on the play, and proceeded to Thoughtseize me for three straight turns, after which he deployed 2 5/5 Death's Shadows and finished me off in a couple turns. I kept a no-dredger hand, and I'm still not sure if this is the correct decision (anyway, had I mulliganed, the Thoughtseizes would have destroyed me even further). Second game I put him on the play and, again, my hand had no dredgers. He Thoughtseized me a couple of times again and I was never really in the game, so the match ended 0-2 for me.

Now for the thoughts and doubts:

* I have the feeling that, the bigger the tournament is, the better is this deck; a lot of people doesn't really know how to fight agains us. Only in three of my six matches my opponent put me on the play when he could, for example.
* I didn't see any dredger (nor Street Wraith to start digging) in any of my two games in match six. That's unfortunate, but statistically has to happen here and there. My question is: What do you do guys in this situation? Do you keep and trust in the Holy Ghost of Topdecking, or mulligan and give a Time Walk to your opponent? If you keep you have 15/49=30.6% chances to hit a dredger in your first draw step (or a 69.4% chances not to hit it, if you prefer); if you mulligan is highly likely that you'll have a dredger in your hand of six, but you'll lose a turn. What is the best line here?
* Still concerning that match: I suffered heavily targeted discard in both games, so even if my seven had been good enough, I would have had no options to win. I've seen that some lists packs 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard; my doubts here are pretty similar to the last point: Is it really worth to give our opponent a Time Walk in order to not being targeted? I'm starting to see the benefits of this option (e.g. vs ANT, if he doesn't side in Empty the Warrens nor bounce effects, he can't win even if he bring Leyline of the Void against us, so extremely aggressive mulligan into LoS might be a way to win the match).
* Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.

In the next weeks I'll keep playing our little monster at my LGS. I'll keep you posted!

[Atreyu]

* Still concerning that match: I suffered heavily targeted discard in both games, so even if my seven had been good enough, I would have had no options to win. I've seen that some lists packs 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard; my doubts here are pretty similar to the last point: Is it really worth to give our opponent a Time Walk in order to not being targeted? I'm starting to see the benefits of this option (e.g. vs ANT, if he doesn't side in Empty the Warrens nor bounce effects, he can't win even if he bring Leyline of the Void against us, so extremely aggressive mulligan into LoS might be a way to win the match).
* Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.

On the Leyline of Sanctity argument I found the discussion starting from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=1049104&viewfull=1#post1049104) of Michael Keller really enlightening at the time (Summer 2018).

I would try to go that line, trying to find some space for 4x Creeping Chill.

Hope this can help.

[Echelon]

The MD is my exact same 60 :laugh:

[Ronald Deuce]

"Sons of The Cabal!
Of Golgari!
My brothers.
I see in your sideboards the same fear that would take the heart of me.
A day may come when the courage of Zombies fails, when we forsake our triggers and pay mana for casting our spells, but it is not this day.
An hour of Leylines and Grafdigger's Cages when the Age of Zombies comes crashing down, but it is not this day!
This day we dredge!
By all that you hold dear on this good graveyard, I bid you stand, Horde of 2/2 Zombies!"

I still sometimes say to my friends, "But it is not this day! THIS DAY, WE FIGHT!" Even when it's totally out of context.


* Thinking even a little more of how to beat ANT (which I see as an really difficult pairing), I'm not sold on the Mindbreak Traps; they play currently 8 discard effects and there is no reason for them to sideboard out any of them, so is highly unlikely that we could use our Traps. So the more I think about it, the more Leyline of Sanctity is appealing me.

I don't think Leyline is necessarily a good answer to Storm. It's a hell of a curveball (I play more Storm than anything else), but that's probably the most you'll get out of it, and most Storm lists run at least two universal bounce spells in the sideboard—usually more. As a Storm player, I find targeted discards or a quick Chancellor of the Annex/Iona to be my major worries from manaless Dredge. If you want to go faster, I'd try Unmask and/or non-budget options to speed up the combo like LED/Faithless Looting.

[gRR!!]

Thank you all for the answers!


The MD is my exact same 60 :laugh:

Of course it is, man, of course it is :cool:


I don't think Leyline is necessarily a good answer to Storm. It's a hell of a curveball (I play more Storm than anything else), but that's probably the most you'll get out of it, and most Storm lists run at least two universal bounce spells in the sideboard—usually more. As a Storm player, I find targeted discards or a quick Chancellor of the Annex/Iona to be my major worries from manaless Dredge. If you want to go faster, I'd try Unmask and/or non-budget options to speed up the combo like LED/Faithless Looting.

I was interested in hearing the point of view of a Storm player, so thanks! I was not sure if you guys brought your bounce effects against Manaless Dredge; if you do, the Leyline of Sanctity plan is less solid indeed. So I suppose I'll try the Unmask plan instead and see what happens.

I still don't see which is the best line of play in the 9.7% of cases where we don't see any of our 15 dredgers in our starting hand. If we keep, we have a 52.3% of chances of drawing a dredger in our first two draws; if we mulligan, the possibility of discard to handsize in the first turn drops to 0.0%, but the odds of having a dredge in our first six is 86.2%, and this odds grows to a 90.3% including the first card we draw and to a 93.3% including the second one (this numbers doesn't have in account the scry; if so, they would be even higher. I'm considering a deck of 56 cards because we have Street Wrait to thin it).

So what I'm trying to tell is:
* By mulliganing, we almost assure that we will discard a dredger in our second discard step, but we will lost a turn;
* By keeping, our chances are significantly lesser, but if we are lucky we will discard a dredger at the end of first turn.

Thoughts?

[Echelon]

I typically just take the mulligan. It's much less risky.

[gRR!!]

OK, I'll try this approach too (seems reasonable, I was too focused in the "never mulligan" Golden Rule).

[Ronald Deuce]

I was interested in hearing the point of view of a Storm player, so thanks! I was not sure if you guys brought your bounce effects against Manaless Dredge; if you do, the Leyline of Sanctity plan is less solid indeed. So I suppose I'll try the Unmask plan instead and see what happens.

People who run Echoing Truth sometimes bring it in to stop zombie tokens and big, reanimated threats; Chain of Vapor is the go-to for stuff you otherwise can't answer like Iona on black. I usually don't board much for the matchup, but if I saw a Leyline out of the sideboard in game 2, I'd definitely pack some answers for game 3. Goblins aren't great if your opponent can flood the board or snap off a Dread Return, so I don't think I'd use Empty against either flavor of Dredge.

Regarding Unmask, it's a good way to get a dredger into the yard quickly (esp. on the play) or to snipe combo-pieces from a Storm player's hand, but if it fizzles it definitely leaves you in an awkward position, being two cards down. Not totally sure how I feel about it (I'm not running it at the moment), but then again I've always thought the matchup was about even. One thing that's cool about this deck is that I think it's got plenty of room for experimentation.

[gRR!!]

People who run Echoing Truth sometimes bring it in to stop zombie tokens and big, reanimated threats; Chain of Vapor is the go-to for stuff you otherwise can't answer like Iona on black. I usually don't board much for the matchup, but if I saw a Leyline out of the sideboard in game 2, I'd definitely pack some answers for game 3. Goblins aren't great if your opponent can flood the board or snap off a Dread Return, so I don't think I'd use Empty against either flavor of Dredge.

Regarding Unmask, it's a good way to get a dredger into the yard quickly (esp. on the play) or to snipe combo-pieces from a Storm player's hand, but if it fizzles it definitely leaves you in an awkward position, being two cards down. Not totally sure how I feel about it (I'm not running it at the moment), but then again I've always thought the matchup was about even. One thing that's cool about this deck is that I think it's got plenty of room for experimentation.

At this moment I'm between LoS and Unmask, here's the pros and cons I see for each of them:

* LoS is useful against targeted discard and damage (so it works bs Burn, ANT or Grixis), but it puts you a card down, so it Time Walks yourself. This maybe is not a great problem against Burn and slower Grixis Control, but it might be huge against Storm (anyways I see the Storm match as really difficult).
* Unmask accelerates you a full turn and you can use it targetting you or the opponent, but you can't risk to use it if the opponent packs any kind of countermagic, so is really useful only against Storm or non-blue decks.

I would like to try Noxious Revival as another way to dodge Surgicals (or messing with Reanimator), but I don't really see how to cram it in the sideboard. Maybe replacing Faerie Macabres?

I'll try Unmask tomorrow at my LGS. Let's see what happens :rolleyes:

[Echelon]

Unmask is valuable in that it can strip away RiP/Grafdigger's Cage before it hits the field. But double timewalking yourself to do so can still be quite the burden.

[gRR!!]

Well, I played Manaless Dredge this last Thursday at my LGS; we were 8 people, played three rounds and I was 2-1, beating Reanimator 2-1, losing 1-2 vs Enchantress and winning 2-0 vs Death and Taxes.

* It was the strangest of days, as my dredgers were eluding me during the entire tournament: in 5 of my 8 games I hadn't any dredger in my opening seven, which is variance taken to the max.
* Anyway I was able to win Reanimator after losing game 1, via double Faerie Macabre game 2 which gave me time to find my dredgers, and after some awkward sideboarding decisions my opponent made game 3 (he kept a hand of turn 1 Pithing and nothing else, and he named Faerie Macabre). This, again, shows how this deck forces opponents to make mistakes.
* I lost match 2 against Enchantress, this is simply unwinnable (my opponent played 4 Rest in Peace MD!). Even then, I won game 1 after a monstruous misplay (I Dread Returned Lotleth Giant instead of Balustrade Spy with almost no creatures in my GY; fortunately my next dredge gave me Cabal Therapy, another DR and Spy, so I comboed him next turn. He had Elephant Grass since turn 1, so I couldn't win attacking). Game 2 he brought Leyline of Sanctity and Faerie Macabres, and I don't even remember game 3. We are lucky that Enchantress is not in the meta!
* I didn't see any dredger in my opening hands against D&T match 3, so I had to mulligan both of them. Anyway my opponent did not present any hate (though I managed to strip a Thalia from his hand game 1) and I won the match 2-0. Mulliganing isn't obviously any good, but is not the end of the world as I thought. In game 2, my opponent had an active Jitte that could have killed my Ichorids and/or Narcomoebas (I didn't have any Bridge in the GY), but he didn't.
* None of my three opponents put me on the play when they could, and at least two of them could have make more. I sided in Unmask in all matches, but I didn't see it or it wasn't necessary. Anyway I won't make any changes to the deck at least until next Thursday.

Thanks for reading!

EDIT to add some thoughts (and sorry, I suck at English)

[Michael Keller]

On the Leyline of Sanctity argument I found the discussion starting from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=1049104&viewfull=1#post1049104) of Michael Keller really enlightening at the time (Summer 2018).

I would try to go that line, trying to find some space for 4x Creeping Chill.

Hope this can help.

Leyline of Sanctity, in my opinion, is the best sideboard card in Manaless Dredge because it nullifies some of the deck's most prolific weaknesses and match-ups collapsed into a single card (Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, Storm and fast combo, targeted spells, etc.).

Does it cost you a turn in the process, sure. But most of the decks that you'd board that card into you have no problem waiting a few turns because they can't do anything prolific to hit your graveyard or hand.

[gRR!!]

After being forced to take some mulligans last day and not being punished by that, I'm more and more inclined to agree with you, Michael. I didn't realize that Bojuka Bog targets player, not graveyard. I'll switch the Unmasks for LoS this next Thursday.

[gRR!!]

Hey there folks,

Yesterday I played Manaless Dredge at my LGS; we were 9 players, played 4 rounds and I ended 2nd at 3-1. I swapped the Unmasks for Leyline of Sanctities and I was very happy with them. Some thoughts:

* I had the bye Round 1 (lucky me), but there was a fellow that wasn't playing the round who had a proxied UB Shadow, so we played four games for fun and I won 3-1. When he ran out of discard, I started the engine and he wasn't able to stop me; he won me a game where he Reanimated my lone dredger in the GY and hit me with a huge/huge Death's Shadow shortly after. I sided in LoS, and the game I draw it was really easy as he kept a hand with 2 Thoughtseizes that he had to use on himself. Creeping Chill really shines in this matchup!
* After this I won 2-0 against B/G Rock (not much to tell here) and 2-0 against Moon Stompy; I were afraid of this matchup, but he only can win if he hits Ensnaring Bridge and Trinisphere (if he only have Bridge we combo him; if he only have Trini we horde him). He had Bridge in the two games and it was not enough. I had to mulligan game 2, but it didn't slow me as much.
* I lost 3rd round against Slow Depths; I won 1st match, lost 2nd to a fast 20/20 and then in match 3 I started with a hand with LoS, 2 Wraiths and no dredger. I take the chance but I didn't draw any dredger on time so I was trampled upon by Cthulhu again. Oh well.

I'm very satisfied with the deck perfomance so far, so I'll keep playing it at my LGS next Thursday. I'll keep you posted, thanks for Reading!

[Echelon]

Nice result.

Creeping Chill has to be hilarious vs. Death's Shadow. Sure, knock your own life total down *flip* :laugh:

[Emeraldjsk]

what is the best way to beat a Turn 0 Leyline of the Void? Is this just an auto scoop, or is it possible to play something out of the Sideboard without completely compromising all of the other matchups?

[ESG]

what is the best way to beat a Turn 0 Leyline of the Void? Is this just an auto scoop, or is it possible to play something out of the Sideboard without completely compromising all of the other matchups?

You have few options. The best approach is to not play this deck when Leyline of the Void is prevalent. If you are compelled to play the deck anyway and refuse to scoop to Leyline, you can try the green package with Dryad Arbors, Reverent Silence, etc.

From the primer:

"For all of Manaless Dredge's strengths, the deck certainly has some glaring weaknesses. To address the elephant in the room: this deck effectively loses to a Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace or any other permanent-based hate that goes unanswered. When I originally piloted this deck, I wanted ways to not only facilitate faster Dread Returns but ways to fight resolved hate out of the sideboard. This was more of a proactive way of fighting hate, which worked at the time. With Dryad Arbors in the main, the sideboard was able to be freed up with design space used for cards that just destroyed the aforementioned hate cards.

The problem with this side-boarding strategy is that the hate has to resolve first, which means you need to have a way to destroy it or lose. Lands out of the sideboard help in conjunction with the Arbors to cast these anti-hate cards. Some people don't think that it's worth it, as this particular sideboard has a tendency to dilute the main-deck and offers little synergy with other cards in the graveyard aside from Dryad Arbor(s). The anti-hate package is also slightly more conditional, as it requires sometimes waiting a full turn for Dryad Arbor to become active in order to cast a Nature's Claim.

Not really the ideal sideboard these days in a Cage and Peace-heavy meta, but certainly not the worst option in the world."

[Final Fortune]

Anybody else running Sphinx of Foresight in the open slots instead of Creeping Chill, filtering for deeper and double dredgers as well as Narcomoebas and recurring creatures is an increase in both consistency and speed. Also keeping a no dredger but one Sphinx hand is really good for SBing out Shambling Shell for Force of Will as well as finding Faerie Macabre vs Reanimator.

For Manaless it feels like a free Brainstorm, that is kind of ridiculous IMO.

[Echelon]

Haven't tried it yet. You are right in that it makes your openers a lot better and makes for more keepable hands. It's just that it's live only 40% of the time. The other 60% of the time it does nothing.

[Final Fortune]

Haven't tried it yet. You are right in that it makes your openers a lot better and makes for more keepable hands. It's just that it's live only 40% of the time. The other 60% of the time it does nothing.

It's still a creature for Nether Shadow and Golgari Gravetroll if nothing else, it seems more impactful than Chancellor of the Annex right now.

[Echelon]

Sure, but those few more creatures typically don't really matter too much. Especially in case of the Troll, since it usually comes down for well over 30/40+.

It might provide more value than Chancellor at the moment, especially for those that run FoW (ofcourse) but for a Balustrade Spy list (so no FoW anywhere in the 75) I'm unsure if it beats Chill. Will have to test it though, because I do like the idea!

One thing that I just happen to think of though - wouldn't running 4 extra dredgers over the Sphinx have pretty much the same result, especially G1? I can imagine Sphinxes being a whole lot better in the SB games though, especially when you're sporting FoW. Dunno. Just something to ponder on.

[gRR!!]

Anybody else running Sphinx of Foresight in the open slots instead of Creeping Chill, filtering for deeper and double dredgers as well as Narcomoebas and recurring creatures is an increase in both consistency and speed. Also keeping a no dredger but one Sphinx hand is really good for SBing out Shambling Shell for Force of Will as well as finding Faerie Macabre vs Reanimator.

For Manaless it feels like a free Brainstorm, that is kind of ridiculous IMO.

I think it seems an interesting idea (I'm always struggling to find some of my 15 dredgers in my opening hand, and finding SB options shouldn't be bad neither). The downsides are losing the Balustrade package (almost an auto-win vs Show and Tell if you have it in hand) and Creeping Chill, which has demonstrated itself super-useful vs Burn, Death's Shadow and even Reanimator when they are low on life after Reanimate some dude/Activate Griselbrand.

Do you folks have any blue Sphinx list on mind?

For the record, I played last Thursday in my LGS, no great results (1-1-2, I think it's the first time ever I had a negative outcome with this deck). I drew against an absolutely absurd amount of hate vs D&T (2xRelics + 1 CoP Black games 2 & 3 + Cage game 2, Surgical game 3 and whatnot; I was dead on board but he ran out of turns), won 2-0 vs Ninjas and lost against Slow Depths and Reanimator after dredging dreadfully in both matches (though I should have won against Reanimator if I had discarded an Ichorid from hand instead of my lone GGT in one of my EoTs; I was ultra-tilted after 4 straight games of variance being a b*tch and I didn't see the correct line of play). I probably won't be able to play the next two weeks, so next chance will be the Feb. 23 Catalan Legacy League.

[Final Fortune]

Sure, but those few more creatures typically don't really matter too much. Especially in case of the Troll, since it usually comes down for well over 30/40+.

It might provide more value than Chancellor at the moment, especially for those that run FoW (ofcourse) but for a Balustrade Spy list (so no FoW anywhere in the 75) I'm unsure if it beats Chill. Will have to test it though, because I do like the idea!

One thing that I just happen to think of though - wouldn't running 4 extra dredgers over the Sphinx have pretty much the same result, especially G1? I can imagine Sphinxes being a whole lot better in the SB games though, especially when you're sporting FoW. Dunno. Just something to ponder on.

Assuming you're already playing 4 Shambling Shells, I don't see how playing 4 Greater Mossdogs at Dredge 3 would be much better than playing 4 Sphinx of Foresight who can Scry 3 for a Dredger of 3+ when the odds of finding a Dredger are ~2/3 not counting the draw or a Street Wraith. It's also dismissing the utility of the dig for specific cards, but overall it just seems like an increase in the deck's consistency without adding non creatures (in the case of Serum Powder) and makes Force of Will out of the SB more reliable.

It's an option if nothing else, I like anything that adds consistency and so far it's been a reliable way to get to the 2nd dredger and outgrind Surgical Extractions.

[Whoshim]

How much of an impact will the new London mulligan rule have if it becomes the standard? I feel like Manaless gets a lot worse because opponents can find their Leylines much more easily. Will the green version with removal become better again? Will the change make it too risky to play Manaless?

[ahg113]

How much of an impact will the new London mulligan rule have if it becomes the standard? I feel like Manaless gets a lot worse because opponents can find their Leylines much more easily. Will the green version with removal become better again? Will the change make it too risky to play Manaless?

On the one hand, neither Reanimator nor dredge are doing so well at the top tables that they need dedicated SB hate. Plus, leylines got dumb expensive. So, to answer your question, Manaless Dredge won't be worth playing except in the playgroups where the pilot knows the competition just doesn't have access to the card. There is also a Horde Mode version that plays lands, but realistically, the Horde mode and green version are bad. A smart player under the new rule will mulligan 6 times for one Leyline, for sure.

[Final Fortune]

Granted the new mulligan rule is a huge buff to Leyline of the Void, but you should expect to lose any match up vs Leyline of the Void regardless so it's just a "win more" issue.

[Emeraldjsk]

If the introduction of the new mulligan rule sticks, sphinx (scry 3) might help us out as we can sculpt better. I have been trying it out online by taking out chancellor x3 and I have won every game and match that leyline did not hit the table. Upping the pitch count to force for cards like Thalia, RiP or other graveyard interaction has been great. There has even been a scenario where I have slowed down the dredge one turn because I knew I would draw wraith and be able to blow out my opp... just food for thought that needs more testing.

[Noloam_]

If the introduction of the new mulligan rule sticks, sphinx (scry 3) might help us out as we can sculpt better. I have been trying it out online by taking out chancellor x3 and I have won every game and match that leyline did not hit the table. Upping the pitch count to force for cards like Thalia, RiP or other graveyard interaction has been great. There has even been a scenario where I have slowed down the dredge one turn because I knew I would draw wraith and be able to blow out my opp... just food for thought that needs more testing.

i only run 2 shambling shells and added 2 sphinx. fow pitch + finding a better dredger / finding counterspells on the top feels great.

[Emeraldjsk]

@noloam
What is your list?

[Noloam_]

@noloam
What is your list?



[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Crippling chill
[4x] Prized Amalgam
[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Sphinx of firesight
[2x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Force of will
[2x] Disrupting Shoal
[2x] Mindbreak Trap
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Chancellor of the annex
[2x] Sickening shoal

[Emeraldjsk]

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Dread Return
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Crippling chill
[4x] Prized Amalgam
[3x] Whirlpool Rider
[2x] Sphinx of firesight
[2x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

//Sideboard
[4x] Force of will
[2x] Disrupting Shoal
[2x] Mindbreak Trap
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Chancellor of the annex
[2x] Sickening shoal

Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?

[ahg113]

Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?

Faerie - black creature eaten by icky & stacks for shadow, also non-spell grave hate that doesn't use mana

Shoal - kills creatures with more than two toughness. Trades # of targets for size of targets.

[Noloam_]

Why faerie macabre? Also, is there a reason for sickening shoal over contagion?

everybody runs faerie for obvious reasons. vs br it blasts through cancellor on the draw. it is creature for shadow AND black for ichorid and you will get it into play once somebody resolves and exhume

in dont see any reason for contagion since elves is pretty much dead. Shoal just kills bigger creature and does not cost you 1 life.

[P-E]

the only point i see pro contagion is the artwork :laugh:
and the suboptimal use to save ichorids against Terminus :laugh:

[Noloam_]

the only point i see pro contagion is the artwork :laugh:
and the suboptimal use to save ichorids against Terminus :laugh:

if you run the counter package, then there is no reason to run spotremoval vs miracles

[Daize]

Is Creeping Chill really all that good? To me it feels like filler that I'd rather have as blue (FoW) and do something in my hand (Sphinx of Foresight). I haven't really felt that Chill pushed me over the edge. Any thoughts on replacing Chill with Sphinx?

[Echelon]

Noloam seems to do both, sorta.

When just on Balustrade Spy Chill is the real deal though. I can imagine it'd be a little different when you want to run the FoW package.

[Noloam_]

Noloam seems to do both, sorta.

When just on Balustrade Spy Chill is the real deal though. I can imagine it'd be a little different when you want to run the FoW package.

very true. you make some concessions when run the w.riders

[Whoshim]

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21623&d=345178&f=LE

48 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Whirlpool Rider

8 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

4 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
2 Ashen Rider
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Will
2 Vengeful Pharaoh

This list intrigues me due to the amount of disruption it has. It doesn't have Creeping Chill though. However, it adds in creatures into most of the other slots. The sideboard is 8 creatures and 7 counterspells. I really like the idea of keeping the creature count so high. I do wonder at only running 2 Whirlpool Riders and 2 Flayers. It seems like running only 2 Riders makes hitting them for the win rather inconsistent. Wouldn't a 3/1 split there be better? Does anyone have any other thoughts?

There was another Manaless Dredge deck that took second at a 28-person tournament recently. It was similar to other lists above, with 4 Creeping Chill and the blue counterspell package.

[Mr. Safety]

I saw this list as well, I'm going to use it as a basis for building the deck. I also thought Creeping Chill would be excellent, possibly cutting the Nether Shadow's to get it in.

[Daize]

Maybe I'm missing it: what's so special about the list in your eyes?

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I'm missing it: what's so special about the list in your eyes?

I can't speak for anyone else, but it caught my eye for having 4x Dread Return (stock in mana-less?) alongside 4 of these:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.tnAVgg59itn4r-A5ad5JhgHaKS&pid=Api&rs=1&p=0

Also, 2 of these in the sideboard:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.QYtBVPkI8fVdEOhJxnZvxgAAAA&pid=Api&rs=1&p=0

Because we always take the draw if possible, making your opponent stumble even for 1 turn allows for a decent chance at erasing the loss of tempo. That's at least the way I interpret it. Dread Returning a disruptive 5/6 flyer is pretty nice, I imagine sometimes better than Flayer of the Hatebound, considering no copies of Balustrade Spy. Again, I am brand new to this deck, I've only played against it a couple times. It seems pretty sexy though, especially with the Force of Will sideboard.

[Daize]

I like reinventing/rediscovering the wheel :-D. Yes, that's nice. Though recurring a chancellor isn't the most interesting thing you can do it's a possibility

[Echelon]

I like reinventing/rediscovering the wheel :-D. Yes, that's nice. Though recurring a chancellor isn't the most interesting thing you can do it's a possibility

It's old tech rather than new. So just rediscovering, not reinventing. Chancellor is even mentioned in the primer and probably also in the primer in the old Manaless thread. As for the Pharaoh, I've been SB'ing 3 since at least 2015, as far as what I can find back in this thread.

@Mr. Safety: I turned the Chancellors into Creeping Chills. While Chancellor is good vs. some bad MUs and some hate it's live only 40% of the time whereas all 4 Creeping Chill will be in your library 60% of the time. This is my current 75:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Creeping Chill
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard:
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

[Daize]

Personally I much prefer the Chancellor. If you're facing decks with turn 1 discard, it mostly means the difference between standing a chance and an auto-loss. Not having that chancellor mostly means never getting the chance of putting a dredger in the graveyard.

[Mr. Safety]

It's old tech rather than new. So just rediscovering, not reinventing. Chancellor is even mentioned in the primer and probably also in the primer in the old Manaless thread. As for the Pharaoh, I've been SB'ing 3 since at least 2015, as far as what I can find back in this thread.

@Mr. Safety: I turned the Chancellors into Creeping Chills. While Chancellor is good vs. some bad MUs and some hate it's live only 40% of the time whereas all 4 Creeping Chill will be in your library 60% of the time. This is my current 75:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Creeping Chill
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Progenitus

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard:
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Contagion
4 Unmask
4 Mindbreak Trap

Thanks for posting the list! I definitely agree that I want Creeping Chill, I was just trying to have a less impactful way to squeeze it in. I was thinking Nether Shadow was the weakest of the creatures, so that was where I was thinking to cut. Without having any experience with the deck I will defer to your judgment. I could always sideboard the Chancellors, no problem.

[Echelon]

Recurring creatures are the power source for your deck, you really don't want to skimp on those.

[Mr. Safety]

Recurring creatures are the power source for your deck, you really don't want to skimp on those.

Thanks! My inexperience with the deck is definitely where that came from. I appreciate the experienced advice. It looks like the only slot to cut is Chancellor. I'll try it both ways and see which version seems to be more appropriate. Alternative sideboard:

4x Force of Will
3x Chancellor of the Annex
2x Ashen Rider
2x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre

[Echelon]

Yeah, there are very few flex slots. You actually need most of the cards just to function properly.

[Mr. Safety]

Does anyone recommend Sphinx of Foresight? Only good with maindeck Force of Will?

[Final Fortune]

Does anyone recommend Sphinx of Foresight? Only good with maindeck Force of Will?

It was perfectly fine when I tested it, just more generic consistency and resiliency for a deck that thrives off of it IMO.

[Mr. Safety]

It was perfectly fine when I tested it, just more generic consistency and resiliency for a deck that thrives off of it IMO.

Maindeck Forces? How many were you playing?

[zzap]

So, I lost my whole post that I spent a few hours writing on this deck. That little auto-save notification is false insurance!

Anyways. I'll keep it short now: Prized Amalgam is not that good, Nether is worse, Shell is still really bad, Creeping Chill is good against RDW and Containment/Cage, Lotleth is nice, and Sphinx of Foresight is very decent.

My working list:

4 Faerie Macabre
4 GGT
4 GT
3 Gris
4 Ichorid
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Narc
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Sphinx of Foresight
4 Stinky
4 Streetwraith

4 Bridge

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
4 Dread Return

I like Macabre mb because it fights Reanimator and Storm first game, which are both faster than Manaless. It also handles Snap nicely. Postboard it deters Surgical, the most played gyhate. It's a godsend because Prized cannot pull its own weight if both Narc and Ich are surged. Foresight becomes better than Thug in hands where you already have a dredger, and it can find hate or Streetwraiths.

[Daize]

Prized Amalgam is not that good, Nether is worse, Shell is still really bad, Creeping Chill is good against RDW and Containment/Cage, Lotleth is nice, and Sphinx of Foresight is very decent.

Sorry to hear you lost your post - I do think a lot of important context is wasted here though. Having a 1/1 on the board is mostly worse than having a 3/3 on the board, but that's not what's a decent comparison is either. Nether Shadow gets onto the board all by itself, Amalgam doesn't. Shell may be bad, but as much as that an island is bad in a deck that uses mana - though having a very basic land is better than having none.

Sorry to say, but probably your post would help a lot more if you'd give some context in which those cards were helpful (where others wouldn't be) :-) .

[Bougnat]

Hi,


I would like to present you my actual version of Manaless.

explanation :

I have been playing the blue version for a long time (4 years?) and tried to update it each time it was possible, always thinking about the meta and how to adapt after each tournament. The conclusion was most of the time :
- Manaless is extremely strong game 1(not a surprise!).
- negative match up are most of the time not Blue deck : Loam, Lands, Dark Depth, infect, reanimator, show and tell, storm, death and taxes, classic dredge...
- The opponent who know Manaless always let you start game 2 and you loose 1 turn.
- the gravehate entered game 2-3 is not a "big" problem: Leyline of the void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true): you loose (Nothing to do even with FOW), Surgical extraction (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction?fromqs=true): annoying but you can play.


Finally, most of bad matchup are a combinaison of :
- Faster than Manaless, and starting game 2 is a problem.
- Use crop rotation (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Crop%20Rotation?fromqs=true)/bojuka bog (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bojuka%20Bog?fromqs=true)and it's easily a game lost.
- use discard turn 1 and make us loosing 1 turn more.


I propose some solutions about these problems:
- Faster than Manaless, and starting game 2 is a problem. =====> starting game 2-3 ! using discard card on US : Unmask (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Unmask?fromqs=true), and Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
- Use crop rotation/bojuka bog and it's easily a game lost. =====> play leyline of sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true), but we will loose 1 turn more
- use discard turn 1 and make us loosing 1 turn more. =====> starting game 2-3 as explaned

Finally, using discard cards on us, and playing leyline are very compatible stratégies. In your dream, You can perfectly play first your game 2-3, have leyline on the board before the beguinning of the game and discard turn 1 your dredger even after 2-3 Mulligans ! Moreover, the bad matchup decks are not blue deck so you can try something without have the risk to be countered !
I added serum powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)to increase the % to have a good hand (you are allowed to Mulligan several times, it's a chance), and switched the classic faerie macabre (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Macabre?fromqs=true)by 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true), thanks to the increased powed given by serum powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true).


The list :


" The Leyline Manaless "


4 Golgari Grave-Troll (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Grave-Troll?fromqs=true)
4 Golgari Thug (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Golgari%20Thug?fromqs=true)
4 Stinkweed Imp (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Stinkweed%20Imp?fromqs=true)

4 Ichorid (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorid?fromqs=true)
4 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)
4 Narcomoeba (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Narcomoeba?fromqs=true)
4 Nether Shadow (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Nether%20Shadow?fromqs=true)

4 Street Wraith (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Street%20Wraith?fromqs=true)
4 Cabal Therapy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal%20Therapy?fromqs=true)
4 Bridge from Below (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Bridge%20from%20Below?fromqs=true)
4 dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
3 Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true)

4 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)

4 Unmask (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Unmask?fromqs=true)
4 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)


SB: 4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true)
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true)
SB: 3 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had to make choices, because I wanted to enter 20 cards:
4 Unmask (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Unmask?fromqs=true), 4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283), 4 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true), 4 Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true), 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true).
Finally, Unmask (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Unmask?fromqs=true) and Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true) are cards which can fit the easiest main deck. I reduced the number of dredger thanks to the add of these 8 cards (and of course to make place).

For the choice between Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460) / Lotleth Giant (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lotleth%20Giant?fromqs=true&printing=42249), I prefer Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460) because I found him better against Land matchup, because of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (https://deckbox.org/mtg/The%20Tabernacle%20at%20Pendrell%20Vale?fromqs=true). In a manaless blue version, Lotleth Giant (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lotleth%20Giant?fromqs=true&printing=42249) is better.


The subboard table I use game 2-3 :


Burn
Loam
Lands
Storm
Dark Depths
Reanimator
Dredge

+ 4 Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true) (burn/loam/Lands/storm/dark dephts)
OR + 4 Leyline of the Void (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20the%20Void?fromqs=true) (Reanimator/ Dredge)

+4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
-3 Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)
-2 dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true)
-1 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
-1 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)

Against these deck, you MUST have your Leyline (white or black), this mean you will Mulligan untill you will have it. We add also the 4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283) to have the possibility to discard our dredger even with 3 cards in hand.


Eldrazi Aggro
Death & Taxes
Affinity
Goblins

+3 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true)
+4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
- 4 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)
-1 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)
-1 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)

Add 4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283) is to discard turn 1 and earn time. The 3 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) will really help you. the problem is what to remove main deck :( . I decided to remove Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true) because i Mulligan but not aggressively against these decks. i ll see in the future if I ll keep the serum and remove the dread return (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread%20Return?fromqs=true).



Grixis Control
Grixis Delver

Nothing to change. You can try to add the 4 Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true)




Show and Tell
Dragon Stompy

+4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
-4 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)

Be the faster as you can !


UWx Control 40 9 %
Stoneblade 35 7 %
Maverick 7 1 %
Merfolk 3 1%
Death's Shadow 9 2 %

+3 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true)
-3 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)

Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true) will be your friend. For white deck against Containment Priest, for the other ones to decrease their threats.


Infect
Elves

+3 Contagion (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion?fromqs=true)
+4 Lion 's eye diamond (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Lion's%20Eye%20Diamond?fromqs=true&printing=10283)
-4 Serum Powder (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Serum%20Powder?fromqs=true)
-1 Phantasmagorian (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Phantasmagorian?fromqs=true&printing=1515)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)
-1 Prized Amalgam (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Prized%20Amalgam?fromqs=true)

You wants to go as fast a possible, specially against infect, to have one or more creature on board.


UR Delver

+4 Leyline of Sanctity (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Leyline%20of%20Sanctity?fromqs=true)
-3 Balustrade Spy (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Balustrade%20Spy?fromqs=true)
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Flayer%20of%20the%20Hatebound?fromqs=true&printing=19460)

Leyline will be a nice bullet is you have it directly, and i hesitate to subboard as Burn (leyline+diamond) to Mulligan very strongly. But finally i decided just to add leyline because you have also other treaths to resolve also.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I I have to sum with this manaless version, you decrease the win% against blue deck (they usually play surgical extraction and you enter nothing against) but these deck were already positive matchup. To compense, you have now a real chance against horrible matchup. You will see, sometime the deck will spread in your hand, it's a version a little less regular than the usual list of manaless, but a little more explosive thanks to the fact that you can play first and you can Mulligan. I hope you will like my list !



Bougnat

[Daize]

Sound reasoning! Do you have any results with it?

The discard part relies on them indeed letting you go first - but it's a nice mindgame. Leyline of Sanctity is beautiful and is imho worth the 1 turn delay, considering how quick of a deck you are.

[mistercakes]

I had some decent results with led out of the sb a while ago (probe was legal and didn't run unmask)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=949601&viewfull=1#post949601

I really liked pairing led with faithless after sb. Led out of sb is pretty legit for manaless, especially with all of the thoughtseize now. It does probably make sense to play leyline(s) now.

[Bougnat]

I played this list on 3 small tournament (12 players) witch mean nothing. I have done 1 big tournament (129 players, and finished 29th, egality with the 14th.
LED can make miracles
- i won game 1
- my opponent game 2 let me start
- play LED
- play street wraith , resp. Sacrifice LED, discard full hand and take 3 black
- dredge 5 with stinkweed imp
- play imp !
- play therapy on my opponent turn 1 on the play with dredge manaless !

[Echelon]

Miracles is a pretty good MU for any Manaless lis tbh. You just ignore pretty much everything they do

[WarpWorld]

I had some decent results with led out of the sb a while ago (probe was legal and didn't run unmask)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=949601&viewfull=1#post949601

I really liked pairing led with faithless after sb. Led out of sb is pretty legit for manaless, especially with all of the thoughtseize now. It does probably make sense to play leyline(s) now.I have done that before myself and it was cute but I ultimately decided that it took up to many sb slots and to just play other things instead. It is always fun to jam and get them

[ESG]

A new addition for the blue lists.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Force-of-Negation-214x302.png

[Echelon]

I'm guessing that's the Force of Negation?

Should be good enough, if the deck can support it. Won't stop Surgical, but will stop everything that stops us dead in our tracks. More Forces means better consistency :smile:

[Scott]

I'm guessing that's the Force of Negation?

Should be good enough, if the deck can support it. Won't stop Surgical, but will stop everything that stops us dead in our tracks. More Forces means better consistency :smile:

Doesn't stop Ooze or Priest but should still replace Disrupting Shoal in the SB.

Also, I guess that means Whirlpool Rider can come out for Whirlpool Drake or whatever.

Sucked to lose Probe, but I think it was made up to us with Creeping Chill, Prized Amalgam, Force of Negation, and even that Sphinx :laugh:

[crowe_1]

How do we feel about Force of Vigor?

2GG
Instant
If it’s not your turn, you may exile a green card from your hand instead of paying this card’s mana cost.
Destroy up to two target artifacts or enchantments.

I think it’s a card we want, though it still has the FoW problem of timewalking us for several turns when we have to use it.

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't this exactly what the deck needed to fight Leyline of the Void? I think it's safe to say this should be a 4-of in every Manaless sideboard.

[crowe_1]

The only notable potential downside I see is having to up the number of green cards to use it consistently. Perhaps add Arbors and Nature’s Claims to the board as well, or is that too excessive?

[Scott]

The only notable potential downside I see is having to up the number of green cards to use it consistently. Perhaps add Arbors and Nature’s Claims to the board as well, or is that too excessive?

Hmm, yeah, kind of a conundrum. I really want to play this card, but I've never been a fan of the Arbor/Nature's Claim package as odds are low of having both in your hand. The only other green manaless card I can think of right now--besides the current 12 of Grave-Troll, Shambling Shell, and the new card out of the board--is old school Gigapede, and I'm also not a fan of diluting the deck with subpar cards. Don't make me think about Greater Mossdog.

[Mr. Safety]

The only notable potential downside I see is having to up the number of green cards to use it consistently. Perhaps add Arbors and Nature’s Claims to the board as well, or is that too excessive?

A full set of Shambling Shell at a minimum is needed alongside the GGT's. Golgari Brownscale is a pretty weak dredger, so that one is pretty much out. Greater Mossdog is really all that's left. If we use traditional Force of Will math we would need a minimum of 16 green cards (including Force of Vigor) to pull it off. Gigapede might have potential, and it isn't a terrible Dread Return target.

[crowe_1]

One positive about Arbor/Vigor/Claim is that two of them in any combination work together. But I think that’s a lot of slots to take up in the board. Arbor could also be Elvish Spirit Guide.

[Echelon]

I do prefer Force of Vigor over the Arbor/Claim plan. Being able to potentially destroy 2 things is also pretty damn cool.

[Noloam_]

what a insane card. ripping through multiple leylines or killing cage for 0 mana.

[gRR!!]

Maybe we could add Noxious Revival to our SB to up the green cards count?

Also, with the non-blue Echelon version, we have one Progenitus, which is also green.

I really like Force of Vigor. Double-timewalking ourselves might be an issue, but again, the opponent might have mulligan aggressively to find LotV/Cage.

[Noloam_]

Do you guys have any other suggestions for green cards? besides the 4 shells main...

[Daize]

Do any of you guys actually run some statistics on how many green cards your actually want to have a decent chance for having & being able to cast it?

[hellhound]

Do you guys have any other suggestions for green cards? besides the 4 shells main...

just play much alike the green shell that floated around a couple of years ago: dryad arbor, bloodghast; post side: 4 of these, 2 Gx fetches, 1 forest, 3 n. claim ...

something like this:

4 dryad arbor
4 blooghast
4 ichos
4 narcos
4 amalgams
4 bridges
4 therapies
4 GGT
4 Stimp
4 thugs
2 shells
3 Wrider
1 Flayer
4 Dreturn
4 SWraith
4 phantasmagorian
2 fow

SB
4 force of vigor
2 fetch Gx
1 forest
3 n. claim (or reverent silence)
2 fow
3 U shoal (or 2 U shoals + 1 ashen rider)

it should work. post SB you have 17 green cards and 17-18 blue cards
CONS:
- no creeping chills which are pretty good in grindy MU
- no MBtrap nor Wchancellor both good against storm
- no gravehate (faeries, surgicals or Bleylines)
- no creature removals (pharaoh, contagion or Bshoal)

but if you don't want to play the blue package you can always switch with one of the other one (creature hate, gy hate, storm hate) and subs the MD fows with Wchancellors or creeping chills.

just my 2 cents

[hellhound]

Do any of you guys actually run some statistics on how many green cards your actually want to have a decent chance for having & being able to cast it?

16 cards is the magic minimum number

[Echelon]

Do any of you guys actually run some statistics on how many green cards your actually want to have a decent chance for having & being able to cast it?

16, b/c FoW math.

Edit: hellhound beat me to it :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

Do you guys have any other suggestions for green cards? besides the 4 shells main...

Gigapede, Greater Mossdog, Dryad Arbour or Basking Rootwalla (not strictly worse than Dryad Arbour because of Spy lists) are the stand out creatures, but Slitherhead is growing on me for being a B/G creature to feed Ichorid and Force of Vigor while adding relevant damage.

[Noloam_]

Gigapede, Greater Mossdog, Dryad Arbour or Basking Rootwalla (not strictly worse than Dryad Arbour because of Spy lists) are the stand out creatures, but Slitherhead is growing on me for being a B/G creature to feed Ichorid and Force of Vigor while adding relevant damage.

slitterhead sounds fun :). I do think gigapede is also a serious option. cant somebody come up with a serious list with force of vigor?

[zzap]

Maybe we could add Noxious Revival to our SB to up the green cards count?

Also, with the non-blue Echelon version, we have one Progenitus, which is also green.

I really like Force of Vigor. Double-timewalking ourselves might be an issue, but again, the opponent might have mulligan aggressively to find LotV/Cage.

You better not timewalk yourself against an opponent who played Cage. Shame on you fellow dredger! :-)

Edit a: And! There are rumors about the black version of the force cycle being similar to Contagion to deal with Priest. Now we just need a recursive creature that's both black and green on the same powerlevel as Ichorid and Narc XD

Edit b: Sorry for multiple edits. Just thought about it again in regards to Cage specifically; like I wrote earlier: Cage doesn't stop dredging, so you can dig deep for GGT to pitch for FoV. Now you can carry on with your necromantic ways...

Edit c: They literally just spoiled the black version, as I was writing edit b. Hahaha. Force of Despair: Pitch black card not during your turn to cast. Destroy all creatures that entered the battlefield this turn. That solves Priest :laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

Just throwing this out there: would Land Grant be a card we would ever play?

[alvoi]

Edit c: They literally just spoiled the black version, as I was writing edit b. Hahaha. Force of Despair: Pitch black card not during your turn to cast. Destroy all creatures that entered the battlefield this turn. That solves Priest :laugh:

Yeah but why don't just play contagion?

[Mr. Safety]

That solves Priest :laugh:

Except Priest has flash and is usually cast on your turn in response to Dread Return or Narcomoeba/Ichorid triggers...

[zzap]

Opps. Forgot about that. Jaja :tongue:

[PFN]

Hello people (first post here). I just recently came back to Magic, and although I tried to convince old friends to play modern, in the end everyone just loves legacy. That being so and as budget was a concern (and burn was getting old) so there I went onto manaless dredge. Just a few months after I bought a FoW set, there came the banning of Probe. But not to worry, cause now we can fight off those pesky leylines of the void.

Anyway, I was so happy with the Force of Vigor spoiler that I immediately tinkered a list with it. I call it the fearfull Manaless Dredge (as opposed to the fearless one) cause it is meant to answer every hate card possible. Tell me what you think:

Deck

3x Dread Return
2x Phantasmagorian
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Shambling Shell
2x Dakmor Salvage
4x Unmask
4x Chancellor of the Annex
2x Greater Mossdog
2x Nether Shadow
2x Whirlpool Drake
2x Gigapede
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard

3x Sickening Shoal
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre
2x Contagion
2x Whirlpool Drake


4 missing slots are meant to Force of Vigor (or Faeries + greens out if your meta asks for that). Dakmor Salvage is there to play against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but it disallows Balustrade Spy, so it is up to the player. You can hard cast Therapy off it as well. After some testing, neither Lotleth Giant nor Flayer of the Hatebound works very well with Whirlpool Rider/Drake, which in turn does not have very good sinergy with Phantasmagorian (one want to keep some cards in hand, the other makes then to go away really fast). Since we are down on recursive creatures and one less Dread Return, that does make a difference.

Prized Amalgam out means you can play both Unmask and Chancellor of the Annex, so you can effectivelly Time Walk an adversary and strip him of a key component right at the start if he tries to play around you. 16 Green sources in the form of Gigapedes, Mossdogs, Shells, Trolls and FoV's (Golgari Thug is out). Gigapede allows you to parcel out the use of Phantasmagorian, so you don't lock yourself out on a risk play (leading to a lack of dredgers in a graveyard, for example, or a lack of cards in hand when comes an opportunity to Whirlpool out).

All in all it plays more like older Manaless, and 3 cards in hand are often enough for the Drake/Rider to put out a Zealot + zombie kills. It does not feel as fast as the Probe/Chill + Flayer, but I felt it to be more reliable on solo testing. If you forego of the Salvages and go the Ballustrade + Lotleth way, can kill on turn two, albeit rarely.

[perian]

Just throwing this out there: would Land Grant be a card we would ever play?

if you want to go this route: dryad arbor, land grant, reverent silence & nature's claim have some synergies imho (inkl. the new green force of vigor).

[Scott]

I'm testing all kinds of stuff*, ideally to make both new Forces fit into the SB. Obviously there are many directions you could go with different builds and card choices, but as a starting point for anyone else about to test: I think Gigapede's back in the 75, in multiples.

I'm reluctant to just jam shitty green cards into the worsened deck to make 4 SB cards work, but Gigapede hasn't felt like that, and not just because it pitches (you can even dredge into it and return it to your hand if you need a green pitch card). Just as importantly, with 4 or 8 or 12 anti-hate pitch cards post-board, you're gonna find yourself nuking your hand often, and it's been ace having more Phantasmagorian effects to discard a dredger if your one dredger doesn't hit another. Gigapede got eclipsed by other cards over the years, but because of all the pitch cards and less reliable cleanup discard, I think it's gotten better.

*-Making the blue shell work is straightforward
-Haven't tested Noxious Revival much. Seems worse than Gigapede. It can put a dredged Force of Vigor on top of your library if there isn't a RiP/LotV effect
-Even trying shit like Greater Mossdogs in the SB to replace Golgari Thug post-board lol
-Might have to lose Creeping Chill and a varied sideboard
-I've only been working within the common recent shell; haven't been working with Dryad Arbor, Dakmor Salvage, Dryad Arbor, Nature's Claim, etc. at all
-A U/G Dread Return target would be big

[Final Fortune]

Gigapede is a good card, it lets you optimize your graveyard by discarding any business from your hand while keeping your hand size at seven. I'm just running Force of Vigor, black pitch removal and Faerie Macabre and it's working out perfectly fine.

MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
2 Lotleth Giant
SB
4 Force of Vigor
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal
4 Faerie Macabre (or Leyline of the Void)

[Noloam_]

Gigapede is a good card, it lets you optimize your graveyard by discarding any business from your hand while keeping your hand size at seven. I'm just running Force of Vigor, black pitch removal and Faerie Macabre and it's working out perfectly fine.

MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
2 Lotleth Giant
SB
4 Force of Vigor
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal
4 Faerie Macabre (or Leyline of the Void)



seems decent. but a phantasmagorian cut seems to me like a more natural one for gigapede. perhaps 2 of each one

[Final Fortune]

seems decent. but a phantasmagorian cut seems to me like a more natural one for gigapede. perhaps 2 of each one

For what? 4xGigapede has to be in the deck for Force of Vigor, and Phantasmagorian still speeds up the deck by discarding multiple business cards at once while feeding Ichorid from the graveyard. The redundancy increases the synergy of the deck, if you start with a Phantasmagorian in your hand then you can replace it with a Gigapede in your graveyard, discard your hand + Gigapede and then replace your best Dredger in hand with Gigapede two turns later to optimize your dredging if necessary. Creeping Chill is ok and all, but it makes Nether Shadow less consistent and doesn't add anything vital to the deck fwiw.

Redundancy is what fuels this deck's wins more than anything IMO.

[Noloam_]

For what? 4xGigapede has to be in the deck for Force of Vigor, and Phantasmagorian still speeds up the deck by discarding multiple business cards at once while feeding Ichorid from the graveyard. The redundancy increases the synergy of the deck, if you start with a Phantasmagorian in your hand then you can replace it with a Gigapede in your graveyard, discard your hand + Gigapede and then replace your best Dredger in hand with Gigapede two turns later to optimize your dredging if necessary. Creeping Chill is ok and all, but it makes Nether Shadow less consistent and doesn't add anything vital to the deck fwiw.

Redundancy is what fuels this deck's wins more than anything IMO.

that phantsamo + gigapede interaction is one i did not think of earlier :).

[Final Fortune]

Hogaak, Arisen Necropolise looks like a contender for the green cards 12-16, it looks a little slow between having to Convoke for 2 and Delve for 5 but it's a possible T3 8/8 by itself, pitches to Force of Vigor, feeds Ichorid and Dread Returns. I think there is enough business for Manaless Dredge that we can cut the combo kill in favour of Hogaak and just aim to attack for lethal on T4?

[Whoshim]

I don't know if I would go above 2 Hogaak. It is legendary, so we can only use one at a time. It requires a bit of investment on our part compared to other creatures we run. It also turns on our opponent's counterspells.

The BG colors are good for our pitch spells, so adding one or two seems possible. The upside of being able to cast it, sac it to Cabal Therapy, get a couple of zombies from Bridge, then cast it again seems good.

[Noloam_]

Hogaak, Arisen Necropolise looks like a contender for the green cards 12-16, it looks a little slow between having to Convoke for 2 and Delve for 5 but it's a possible T3 8/8 by itself, pitches to Force of Vigor, feeds Ichorid and Dread Returns. I think there is enough business for Manaless Dredge that we can cut the combo kill in favour of Hogaak and just aim to attack for lethal on T4?

that card is absurd to me. we should just forget about the gigapedes. perhaps 3 hogaak and 1 gigapede. what do you think echolon?

[Final Fortune]

I don't know if I would go above 2 Hogaak. It is legendary, so we can only use one at a time. It requires a bit of investment on our part compared to other creatures we run. It also turns on our opponent's counterspells.

The BG colors are good for our pitch spells, so adding one or two seems possible. The upside of being able to cast it, sac it to Cabal Therapy, get a couple of zombies from Bridge, then cast it again seems good.

I've been gold fishing it for awhile now, I think you definitely need 4 because you want to get 1 on the board as soon as possible and you can just feed the other copies to your Ichords or other Hogaaks to activate them (also, redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares matters). The card is kind of absurd, it's like WOTC gave Manaless Dredge a Tinker Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not you cut the combo it even accelerates your Dread Return by guaranteeing 3 creatures on board for it (since you have to have 2 already for Convoke). In theory, I think the deck might cut Gigapede and the combo targets for Hogaaks and Creeping Chill, between Trample and Lightning Bolts you should get there on T4. I don't think turning on Counter Spells is a real argument, besides Cabal Therapy to push it thru' that just means there is one less Counter Spell for Dread Return.

This set feels like Christmas.

[Noloam_]

these are my thoughts right now:

Mainboard:

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 shambling shell
3 whrilpool rider
4 prized amalgam

4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
3 hogaak, arisen necropolis
1 gigapede


4 street wraith
4 nether shadow
4 narcomoeba
1 flayer of the hateboand
4 phantasmagorian
4 ichorid






Sideboard:

1 disrupting shoal
4 force of will
4 force of vigor
3 faerie macabre
1 chancellor of anex
2 mindbreak trap

[zzap]

I've been gold fishing it for awhile now, I think you definitely need 4 because you want to get 1 on the board as soon as possible and you can just feed the other copies to your Ichords or other Hogaaks to activate them (also, redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares matters). The card is kind of absurd, it's like WOTC gave Manaless Dredge a Tinker Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not you cut the combo it even accelerates your Dread Return by guaranteeing 3 creatures on board for it (since you have to have 2 already for Convoke). In theory, I think the deck might cut Gigapede and the combo targets for Hogaaks and Creeping Chill, between Trample and Lightning Bolts you should get there on T4. I don't think turning on Counter Spells is a real argument, besides Cabal Therapy to push it thru' that just means there is one less Counter Spell for Dread Return.

This set feels like Christmas.

I do believe 4 is the correct number.

While the theory of dropping half the combo seems nice, I believe you still need to be able to dump your library to find something like Giant or Flayer to reach over an Ensnaring.

This new addition increases T2 lethal by a small margin, it feeds itself, Ich, and FoV, and can be cast under a Priest. Also, being Legendary is a built in sac just in case you want to pump your zombie count by a large margin (in this case with enough Bridges it's much better than not having Legendary). Just don't know what to cut. It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger :cry:

[Mr. Safety]

It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger :cry:

We're not done yet...still room for more common/uncommon green dredgers. We just got a dredge Shatter spoiled, it wouldn't be unreasonable to get something playable.

[Final Fortune]

I do believe 4 is the correct number.

While the theory of dropping half the combo seems nice, I believe you still need to be able to dump your library to find something like Giant or Flayer to reach over an Ensnaring.

This new addition increases T2 lethal by a small margin, it feeds itself, Ich, and FoV, and can be cast under a Priest. Also, being Legendary is a built in sac just in case you want to pump your zombie count by a large margin (in this case with enough Bridges it's much better than not having Legendary). Just don't know what to cut. It seems like a great card, but I was hoping for another green dredger :cry:

I think you can SB in that green fatty that turns permanents into elephant tokens post board along with Force of Vigor if Ensaring Bridge is a thing, at the rate I'm gold fishing lethal right now I don't think the combo is necessary and you can just play pure business. The big thing is that the Delve mechanic gives spells new utility as a graveyard resource, I'm thinking Unmask might have a second life waiting for it considering it both gets rid of a counter and accelerates this dude onto the field.

This card is like holy fucking shit good, no way you play less than 4.

[Scott]

That's it. I'm not putting together any more new lists until this set is finished getting spoiled :laugh:

[P-E]

you're trying this Final ?

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Creeping Chill
4 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

[Final Fortune]

you're trying this Final ?

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Creeping Chill
4 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

That's the list I'm gold fishing to calculate the average time to kill for Hogaak, I plan on play tesing -4 Creeping Chill for +4 Unmask vs aggro-control decks next since Unmask both clears the path for and accelerates into Hogaak (you can Unmask yourself for +2 cards to Delve).

[P-E]

unmask is good even g2 when you'll be on the play ^^

not sure if hogaark and chill will work very well together as you have to remove chill but why not

[Final Fortune]

unmask is good even g2 when you'll be on the play ^^

not sure if hogaark and chill will work very well together as you have to remove chill but why not

You don't have to remove Chill, you may remove Chill, keep that in mind when you're dredging as the 3 damage isn't always worth the 1 delve.

[ahg113]

For some reason, not having a combo finish seems wrong. This is a no-lands version of mana dredge in some effect, but slower. I think the grind + win out of nowhere combo is what makes this deck extra scary. I do like the quad list just posted, BUT I don't feel like leaving home without a flayer or giant. I think it's reasonable to cut the Whirlpool, or Spy, but why leave the "I-win" card at home with Giant or Flayer?

Where is the T2 kill/lethal I am horribly missing?

[zzap]

More often CC will do it's job than Unmask; you don't need to test that to see if it works. This deck still wants to dredge more than rely on nontraditional, explosive opening hands. I like sticking to the philosophy of the deck: play as non- interactive as possible.

I like the new angles Hagokk provides: since you cast it using Convoke and Delve, it can be played through Trinisphere. Since it's a creature, Thalia is happy about it (or not, actually :laugh:).

[Final Fortune]

For some reason, not having a combo finish seems wrong. This is a no-lands version of mana dredge in some effect, but slower. I think the grind + win out of nowhere combo is what makes this deck extra scary. I do like the quad list just posted, BUT I don't feel like leaving home without a flayer or giant. I think it's reasonable to cut the Whirlpool, or Spy, but why leave the "I-win" card at home with Giant or Flayer?

Where is the T2 kill/lethal I am horribly missing?

The combo kill isn't for the "I win" in and of itself, but for the added reach and TTK. If I get an 8/8 trample and Lightning Bolts that let me kill on the same turn, then it's more or less the same but Hogaak is a much less conditional to grind thru' Tormod's Crypt and its ilk. A card that adds speed and redundancy is a no brainer, so Hogaak is a 4x no questions ask. The combo only adds speed and Ichorid food, and now that spells are Hogaak food Creeping Chill is just a less conditional speed card than the combo. The reach aspect is what was never there before the combo kill, all you could ever do was go wide. With Trample/Bolts that changes, and there might be some other old cards like Chancellor of the Forge worth looking at for the added effects of the free goblin speeding the deck up and the Dread Return target letting you go super wide for the kill.

The set has Delve, Convoke, Dredge and Pitch effects with 60 cards to go, so until Christmas ends we might get another present that forces us to rethink the all redundancy approach.

[zzap]

This card is like holy fucking shit good, no way you play less than 4.

Have you been able to get Hagokk out by t2 at all? Both Hag and Prize are very similarly bad for relying on Narc and Ich to do the heavy lifting. At least Hag can hit the field the turn it's dredged unlike Ich or Prize. Prize is just so bad; in a perfect world Hag replaces Prize and we get another body that recurs, dredges AND is black and green.

[Final Fortune]

Have you been able to get Hagokk out by t2 at all? Both Hag and Prize are very similarly bad for relying on Narc and Ich to do the heavy lifting. At least Hag can hit the field the turn it's dredged unlike Ich or Prize. Prize is just so bad; in a perfect world Hag replaces Prize and we get another body that recurs, dredges AND is black and green.

Nope, Hag is a T3 card for a T4 kill at best, most of the time T2 is one recurring creature to proc Prized Amalgram and then the recurring creature and Prized Amalgram tap to Convoke out Hogaak on T3 and you push your attack on T4. The deck feels about a turn slower with Hogaak, but I don't think that makes the deck worse necessarily as what it loses in speed it makes up for in resiliency. Incidentally Hogaak makes Dread Return into the combo a more consistent T3 play as well if that's your bag, it's not necessarily Hogaak or combo I'm just trying to see if there's any more redundancy worth playing over the combo that lets you play thru' Crypt wipes or speeds the deck up in any way (Dryad's Arbor and Basking Rootwalla are a possible way to turbo out Hogaak on T2 I think).

Realistically, I think the archetype is a T4 deck.

[Bougnat]

After testing Haggok is a wonderful upgrade for the deck, 4 auto include every day !
Balustrade spy isn’t necessary, and now flayer of the hatebound is better than lotleth giant (due to haggok). I prefer unmask than creeping chill because of the metagame and the sinergy with haggok. I still think as everyone about the SB. My actual testing list:


4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Prized Amalgam

[LOLWut]

I must be on a different wavelength because I love the combo finish and Prized Amalgam, and haven't been bowled over by Hogaak in testing.

[Final Fortune]

I must be on a different wavelength because I love the combo finish and Prized Amalgam, and haven't been bowled over by Hogaak in testing.

I have no idea what there is not to like about Amalgam, he's business in a deck that wants as much business as possible. Hogaak is straight good, there's no reason to not play him even if he's only another Ichorid esque creature.

@Thread; people need to be smacked for cutting Shambling Shells, you either play 4 for Force of Vigor or pack it in to Leyline of the Void.

[zzap]

I should have given more context: Prize is bad compared to what Narc and Ichorid do. Prize is decent in the deck that's why I still play it.

[Echelon]

I'm not sold on Hogaak yet tbh

It sucks vs. Karakas

[Final Fortune]

I'm not sold on Hogaak yet tbh

It sucks vs. Karakas

I'm on Hogaak and the combo kill at the moment, I think in a vacuum you play Hogaak no matter what for the faster gold fish - if it's bad vs any particular deck, then you just ignore him and feed him to Ichorid; there's nothing lost as Gigapede or Creeping Chill aren't particularly great either in that match up. There's also a soft disruption element to the card, a lot of people hold on to a Swords to Plowshares for Hogaak instead of exiling an Ichorid; even the threat of the card makes people play sub-optimally where they wouldn't have before.

[Echelon]

@Final Fortune: Can you post your 75?

[Final Fortune]

@Final Fortune: Can you post your 75?

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
2 Lotleth Giant

4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal.

[ahg113]

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
2 Lotleth Giant

4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal.

I like this a lot. I'm wondering why the split of 2 Spy/2 Giant, as recurring the Spy is an I win moment, so 3/1 seems more adventageous. But that's quibbling. My real question is about the SB, 7 spots dedicated to creature removal. What are you playing against that it's so weighted that way? I was expecting 4 removal, and 3 something else utility, either Ashen Rider or Chancellor. (Running Spy, no miser's Prog?)

I think it's great that Creeping Chill is (potentially) fighting for space. I miss probe just because, but I am pleased that there have been subsequent printings to add to the deck.

[Final Fortune]

I like this a lot. I'm wondering why the split of 2 Spy/2 Giant, as recurring the Spy is an I win moment, so 3/1 seems more adventageous. But that's quibbling. My real question is about the SB, 7 spots dedicated to creature removal. What are you playing against that it's so weighted that way? I was expecting 4 removal, and 3 something else utility, either Ashen Rider or Chancellor. (Running Spy, no miser's Prog?)

I think it's great that Creeping Chill is (potentially) fighting for space. I miss probe just because, but I am pleased that there have been subsequent printings to add to the deck.

I see a lot of D&T, and I don't think the utility stuff like Ashen Rider or Chancellor of the Annex is worth cutting business for (Chancellor's days are behind him now that Deathrite Shaman is gone). The 2/2 split is because Tormod's Crypt happens, removing your only copy of Giant means every copy of Spy is worthless anyway, and Giant being black means I can remove it to Ichorid myself.

Progenitus is worthless, why would I want a card that is useless for Ichorid, Nether Shadow and Hogaak in my deck? High Tide?

[Echelon]

Thank you! Figured Chill was the cut to make.

[ahg113]

Progenitus is worthless, why would I want a card that is useless for Ichorid, Nether Shadow and Hogaak in my deck? High Tide?

Coming in hot! I asked, so I did it to myself. It was more just a precaution of having to wait a turn, and Prog still works with any pitch card. But that's fearful, and Spy is a fearless list.

Anything to keep the discussion alive though. My meta is much more likely to play U, grixis, show'n'tell, miracles (ugh). I haven't played a lot of paper recently, but killing critters never seemed especially necessary to me. Containment priest would be a valid concern though, and loading up bullets for that makes sense.

[Bougnat]

It seems creeping chill is the out for integrating hoggak, admitted by most of people.
The question still pending for 4 cards: do we keep combo plan or we replace by 4 unmask?
The 2 are good. Personally I prefer unmask because it’s nice with hoggak, but first because it increase cabal therapy. The combo plan is well established and there is no reason to remove too :).

I think this will depend of your subboard:
- the counter SB: with force of will/force of negation you need blue cards —> combo plan MD with whirlpool rider
- the force of vigor SB: you have the choice.
- the leyline SB: you prefer 4 unmask

[Final Fortune]

Coming in hot! I asked, so I did it to myself. It was more just a precaution of having to wait a turn, and Prog still works with any pitch card. But that's fearful, and Spy is a fearless list.

Anything to keep the discussion alive though. My meta is much more likely to play U, grixis, show'n'tell, miracles (ugh). I haven't played a lot of paper recently, but killing critters never seemed especially necessary to me. Containment priest would be a valid concern though, and loading up bullets for that makes sense.

I'm blunt by nature, don't sweat it.

What makes the creature removal SB plan good is that it's the most consistent SB plans at what it does, you can have 8 (now 12) of the effects and you'll always have a black card to pitch for them. You can go with the flashier SB strategies like Force of Will and the new Modern Horizon's Force of Will to make the SB cards more relevant in other match ups like combo, but the problem is that strategy is less consistent vs anything in particular even if it can work vs everything in general by nature of the cards being blue.

There are just some match ups where I'm ok with packing it in against, Storm is never going to be great for us because they already have discard for whatever we try to do, but linear decks that have specific strategies like using the graveyard or playing bears are really easy to board against because you have completely non-interactive hate like Leyline of the Void or Faerie Macabre or those decks don't have counters/discard and your answers are going to resolve no matter what.

In theory, you play this deck because graveyard hate is light, there are a lot of blue decks in the metagame to prey on, those blue decks are keeping away combo and every body else is trying to beat the blue decks with fair decks (so we SB for the fair decks, which happens to be the decks that run Leyline and/or dumb white creatures right now).

At least that's my logic.

[Echelon]

I like my Progenitus... Being able to flip my library knowing I will for sure have another attack phase to swing with all my critters is pretty sweet.

[ahg113]

So it's a total fluke because it was on cockatrice, against a durdle heavy land tax, scroll rack deck. BUT!, I got to draw to 19 cards deep in the deck to find a force of vigor and exploded the guys T0 cage and leyline of sanctity. It felt so so good. Won the turn after, had one street wraith, and drew a other in the interim. Finding hate in the opening 7 is kinda christmas land, but drawing that deep, never dredging, and getti g there. I just wanted to share. Viger feels much better than Will, when it comes to forces. A creatureless durdle deck is a good opponent to play. Double lotleth when all said and done. He never saw a trinisphere, nor a e.tutor before it mattered.

Casting Hagook through trinisphere is awesome.

[Mister_Lamp]

How will the new mulligan rule affect manaless dredge? Will opponents just mulligan to hate very game and this we have to mulligan to anti hate every game as well?

[WarpWorld]

How will the new mulligan rule affect manaless dredge? Will opponents just mulligan to hate very game and this we have to mulligan to anti hate every game as well?I don't think that it changes much for us. Honestly if grave hate is heavily played then put the deck down for a month or two and play something else and come back to manaless later when your local readjusts. The new Mulligan rule helps us find our dredgers or hate when we need to Mulligan, helping our opponents Also as other people have mentioned unmask gets better to help us put something in yard to start going off, otherwise it is a timewalk as usual for us

[Bougnat]

Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?

[Darklingske]

Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?

Starts from july 12.

[WarpWorld]

Is the new mulligan official , actually appliqued in tournament ?They made a big announcement that it was being implemented with core set 2020

[Emeraldjsk]

With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?:confused:

[Lava Snacks]

With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?:confused:

My concern is that very few of those mulligans will lead to you getting both Force of Vigor and Unmask in your hand. It's similar to the old problem of the low odds of drawing both Nature's Claim and Elvish Spirit Guide.

[Echelon]

Yup. .4 * .4 = about 16% chance per hand of that happening. Considering we have 2 mulls at best (Force + green card, Unmask + black card and a dredger equals 5 cards after all) we'll have 3 hands to try our luck so that'd be about a 48% success rate after which we also have to keep hitting dredgers to not turn it into a mull to 1. And that's just goldfishing, not even taking into account how often the opponent will have the answer to our Force.

So yeah, not the best of plans.

[Final Fortune]

[QUOTE=Emeraldjsk;1071235]With the new mulligan I believe we probably want to be on the unmask game plan. The opponent is going to mulligan to their hate piece, we will mulligan to our anti-hate in force of vigor and unmask ourselves to get the game going on turn 1. This also helps with resiliency as far as play//draw. or am I missing something?:confused:[/QUOTEG

Unmasking yourself and going to four cards just to start dredging a turn faster is not worth it, if they do have a hate card, let's say Surgical Extraction, then you've Time Walked yourself for 3 turns compared to 1. Grinding thru' hate, now more than ever, is the way to go as the probability of hate increases.

[Scott]

Anyone else playing with Serum Powder in the sideboard now? It's an option to thrown in the ring given the conundrum of:

a.) With the London Mulligan, opponents will presumably mulligan more aggressively and successfully to hate
b.) Which would lead a combo deck to prioritize London Mulliganing to anti-hate
c.) But Manaless really not wanting to mulligan under 7 cards

At the moment, my SB has 4 Serum Powder, 4 Force of Vigor, 4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion, and flex slots. So far it's the solution I like best, if the aforementioned issue does stick.

[Final Fortune]

Anyone else playing with Serum Powder in the sideboard now? It's an option to thrown in the ring given the conundrum of:

a.) With the London Mulligan, opponents will presumably mulligan more aggressively and successfully to hate
b.) Which would lead a combo deck to prioritize London Mulliganing to anti-hate
c.) But Manaless really not wanting to mulligan under 7 cards

At the moment, my SB has 4 Serum Powder, 4 Force of Vigor, 4 Sickening Shoal/Contagion, and flex slots. So far it's the solution I like best, if the aforementioned issue does stick.

I think it's legit tech, I used it awhile ago for Leyline of Sanctity.

[Whoshim]

Orin67 had a list over on reddit with some Dryad Arbors and Whirlpool Riders.

I feel like Griselbrand is better than Whirlpool Rider if we are not in blue. Is our life total a big enough deal? I feel like having to have cards in hand for Whirlpool Rider is more restrictive.

If Whirlpool Rider is better, is the new Core Set 20 Cavalier of Flame even better for us?

[Echelon]

Can't pitch red cards to FoW. If you're not on the FoW plan you should probably just run Balustrade Spy.

[kombatkiwi]

Can't pitch red cards to FoW. If you're not on the FoW plan you should probably just run Balustrade Spy.

His (Orim67) deck isn't on the FoW plan but he can't use Spy because he has Dryad Arbor maindeck
Other options that don't require anything:
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Bedlam Reveler
Rowdy Crew

Requires the opponent to have cards in hand:
Sandstone Oracle
Slithermuse

Requires you to have creatures:
Tishana Voice of Thunder
God Eternal Bontu
Skullmulcher

Otherwise yes you can play something that requires life total (Grisel) or a more powerful card than Whirlpool Rider that requires cards in hand (Cavalier, Whirlpool Drake)

[Echelon]

There's also River Kelpie. Resolving all the triggers is a major pain though.

[Noloam_]

these are my thoughts right now:

Mainboard:

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 shambling shell
3 whrilpool rider
4 prized amalgam

4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 hogaak, arisen necropolis


4 street wraith
4 nether shadow
4 narcomoeba
1 flayer of the hateboand
4 phantasmagorian
4 ichorid






Sideboard:

1 Force of Negation
4 force of will
4 force of vigor
3 faerie macabre
1 chancellor of anex
2 mindbreak trap



i have updated my list. I do believe force of negation is better than disrupting shoal

[Echelon]

i have updated my list. I do believe force of negation is better than disrupting shoal

Easily :smile:

[Scott]

i have updated my list. I do believe force of negation is better than disrupting shoal

I'm off the blue plan myself now, but since you aren't playing Disrupting Shoal anymore, you could consider replacing Whirlpool Rider with Whirlpool Drake.

[Whoshim]

Disrupting Shoal is better than Force of Negation when against Containment Priest, so that is something to keep in mind.

Also, thanks for the list, kombatkiwi.

[Noloam_]

I'm off the blue plan myself now, but since you aren't playing Disrupting Shoal anymore, you could consider replacing Whirlpool Rider with Whirlpool Drake.

great point

[Noloam_]

Disrupting Shoal is better than Force of Negation when against Containment Priest, so that is something to keep in mind.

Also, thanks for the list, kombatkiwi.

i'm mostly a death and taxes player. most people dont run 2 priests anymore, so i believe the pact is beter in almost all other instances.

[Lava Snacks]

Somehow, I haven't faced Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus yet. Any tips on playing against them? I'm wondering when opponents usually/should pop them, how to consider Crypt in terms of Force of Vigor, etc. If they play it turn 1, do I Force of Vigor it right then? And I've heard that Gigapede helps against Crypt but I'm not sure how. thx

[Echelon]

Relic's tap ability can straightup kill you if you don't have a Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian.

As for saccing Crypt/Relic you basically want to slowroll it and keep your hand full at all times so you can discard to hand size as soon as they pop it. More often than not it gets popped either before your first dredge or just after, which is premature in my opinion. An opponent that knows what they're doing should sac it as soon as the first trigger for whatever creature to return from your graveyard to the battlefield goes on the stack (so probably a Narcomoeba/Ichorid trigger). That way they get the most value whilst leaving us with nothing.

[Final Fortune]

Leyline of Combustion is definitely worth talking about, that's now eight Leylines you can SB vs Storm and dropping multiple, different Leylines off of your starting hand is going to give Echoing Truth fits.

[Lava Snacks]

Relic's tap ability can straightup kill you if you don't have a Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian.

As for saccing Crypt/Relic you basically want to slowroll it and keep your hand full at all times so you can discard to hand size as soon as they pop it. More often than not it gets popped either before your first dredge or just after, which is premature in my opinion. An opponent that knows what they're doing should sac it as soon as the first trigger for whatever creature to return from your graveyard to the battlefield goes on the stack (so probably a Narcomoeba/Ichorid trigger). That way they get the most value whilst leaving us with nothing.

Makes sense, thanks.

Do I perceive, then, that if an opponent dropped a Crypt on turn 1 and you had a Force of Vigor in hand, you wouldn't bother destroying it on their turn and setting yourself back 2 turns, and you'd just let it ride?

[Echelon]

Absolutely!

Force is for stuff that doesn't solve itself, like Leylines, Cage and RiP :smile:

[Lava Snacks]

I have a small amount of main deck space and I think I want something that helps me against combo, either by making me faster or hampering the opposing combo deck.

I figure that I'm gonna do very well against fair decks, and I've done all I can against hate in the sideboard with things like Force of Vigor, so maybe I should think about combo, even though I don't really have sideboard space.

I'm brainstorming a list of maindeckable, or maybe not, cards that are good against combo. We already have speed cards like Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian, and the combo finish, and disruption in Cabal Therapy. There's also stuff in the sideboard like Leylines.

So far my list has:
Mishra's Bauble/Urza's Bauble and Gigapede for speed/business. Maybe Creeping Chill?
Chancellor of the Annex, Faerie Macabre, Unmask and Force of Will for disruption

Any other cards, or other ideas on options to improve positioning?

[Echelon]

Creeping Chill is awesome

[Scott]

18th place in this weekend's MTGO Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2019-07-01):
Similar to mine, except I have -3 Chill, +1 Spy, +1 Shell, +1 undecided, and Serum Powder and Gigapede in the SB along with the Sickening Shoals and Force of Vigors.

// Creature (45)
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

// Sorcery (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Creeping Chill
4 Dread Return

// Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
2 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Vigor
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Progenitus
2 Sickening Shoal

[LOLWut]

I'd want more than 15 green sources for Force of Vigor.


18th place in this weekend's MTGO Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2019-07-01):
Similar to mine, except I have -3 Chill, +1 Spy, +1 Shell, +1 undecided, and Serum Powder and Gigapede in the SB along with the Sickening Shoals and Force of Vigors.

// Creature (45)
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

// Sorcery (11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Creeping Chill
4 Dread Return

// Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
2 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Vigor
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Progenitus
2 Sickening Shoal

[easysantiago]

I have a small amount of main deck space and I think I want something that helps me against combo, either by making me faster or hampering the opposing combo deck.

I figure that I'm gonna do very well against fair decks, and I've done all I can against hate in the sideboard with things like Force of Vigor, so maybe I should think about combo, even though I don't really have sideboard space.

I'm brainstorming a list of maindeckable, or maybe not, cards that are good against combo. We already have speed cards like Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian, and the combo finish, and disruption in Cabal Therapy. There's also stuff in the sideboard like Leylines.

So far my list has:
Mishra's Bauble/Urza's Bauble and Gigapede for speed/business. Maybe Creeping Chill?
Chancellor of the Annex, Faerie Macabre, Unmask and Force of Will for disruption

Any other cards, or other ideas on options to improve positioning?

I've been taking Chancellor and Creeping Chill over FOW lately. It's worked out well. Preemptively disrupting the opponent's first play often leaves enough room for us to get ahead.

[SecondSunrise]

Has anyone tested the new version of the deck with Dryad Arbor + Hogaak Main and the green package of Force of Vigor, Reverent Silence and Land Grant Side?

Specifically, I am talking about this list from Orim67:
https://twitter.com/LennistarHs/status/1137438533415837697

On YT there are some videos by Ewlandon and others playing the deck, definitely seems promising.

[GoldenCid]

Has anyone tested the new version of the deck with Dryad Arbor + Hogaak Main and the green package of Force of Vigor, Reverent Silence and Land Grant Side?

Specifically, I am talking about this list from Orim67:
https://twitter.com/LennistarHs/status/1137438533415837697

On YT there are some videos by Ewlandon and others playing the deck, definitely seems promising.

Sounds like we wanted to go the same plan with nature claim, silent AND fetchs

[Final Fortune]

Has anyone tested the new version of the deck with Dryad Arbor + Hogaak Main and the green package of Force of Vigor, Reverent Silence and Land Grant Side?

Specifically, I am talking about this list from Orim67:
https://twitter.com/LennistarHs/status/1137438533415837697

On YT there are some videos by Ewlandon and others playing the deck, definitely seems promising.

His list is kind of all over the place, I've been running Dryad Arbor instead of the combo package for awhile and liking it tho'. Reverent Silence is still too inconsistent IMO.

[easysantiago]

His list is kind of all over the place, I've been running Dryad Arbor instead of the combo package for awhile and liking it tho'. Reverent Silence is still too inconsistent IMO.

The combo + Hogaak seems fine to me. Maybe it's my play style, but the Dryads often feel like dead cards. There are always enough black creatures to tap.

[Gunofmercy]

I've been doing pretty well with my version:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Greater Mossdog
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Whirlpool Rider

1 Ashen Rider
4 Force of Will
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Sickening Shoal
3 Force of Vigor

So far I haven't missed Creeping Chill too much with Hogaak.

[Final Fortune]

The combo + Hogaak seems fine to me. Maybe it's my play style, but the Dryads often feel like dead cards. There are always enough black creatures to tap.

Both are ok, at the moment I just like looking for the best possible lists vs blue.dec for consistency.

[easysantiago]

I am thinking of trying the list below for game 1, and then transitioning to the FoW or FoV list game 2. Creeping Chill has got me there a few times and Prized is fuel for both Hogaak and FoW in game 2.

My local meta is mostly Delver and other fair decks. Any suggestions on the SB?

MB
Creatures (48)
- 3 x Balustrade Spy
- 4 x Creeping Chill
- 1 x Flayer of the Hatebound
- 4 x Golgari Grave-Troll
- 4 x Golgari Thug
- 4 x Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
- 4 x Ichorid
- 4 x Narcomoeba
- 4 x Nether Shadow
- 4 x Phantasmagorian
- 4 x Prized Amalgam
- 4 x Shambling Shell
- 4 x Stinkweed Imp
- 4 x Street Wraith

Sorcery (4)
- 4 x Dread Return

Enchantment (4)
- 4 x Bridge from Below

[Echelon]

No Cabal Therapy? :eek:

[Gunofmercy]

His list is 56.

My suggestion is always side in force, don't cycle street wraith until the try to cast extraction, discard, or you have a read. Those decks you should usually beat with tight play.

[Whoshim]

His list is 60. It says 48 creatures + 4 sorceries + 4 enchantments, but the Creeping Chills are mixed in with the creatures, and there are 52 cards listed in that section. He does not have Therapy in his main deck. I think they are more important than the Chills. The ability to kill our creatures and get zombie tokens is huge.

However, I feel like 1x Chill is not a bad way to make the deck, as it helps give maybe enough of a breather vs. Marit Lage and Burn without dedicating too many slots to it. So maybe 3x Therapy and 1x Chill in the main would be okay.

If you are going to run both Forces, then a SB could look like this:

4x Force of Will
4x Force of Vigor
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Leyline of the Void

Leyline of the Void for graveyard - no Dreadhorde or Snapcaster shenanigans, Sickening Shoal for weenies.

With the re-release of the Leylines and the London Mulligan starting up, I have heard that more people are running Leylines, so people are running more enchantment removal, so Faerie Macabre may be better. Faerie does give some upsides that Leyline does not. It is a creature. It can protect you against Surgical if needed. It can force the opponent into a misplay.

[easysantiago]

His list is 60. It says 48 creatures + 4 sorceries + 4 enchantments, but the Creeping Chills are mixed in with the creatures, and there are 52 cards listed in that section. He does not have Therapy in his main deck. I think they are more important than the Chills. The ability to kill our creatures and get zombie tokens is huge.

However, I feel like 1x Chill is not a bad way to make the deck, as it helps give maybe enough of a breather vs. Marit Lage and Burn without dedicating too many slots to it. So maybe 3x Therapy and 1x Chill in the main would be okay.

If you are going to run both Forces, then a SB could look like this:

4x Force of Will
4x Force of Vigor
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Leyline of the Void

Leyline of the Void for graveyard - no Dreadhorde or Snapcaster shenanigans, Sickening Shoal for weenies.

With the re-release of the Leylines and the London Mulligan starting up, I have heard that more people are running Leylines, so people are running more enchantment removal, so Faerie Macabre may be better. Faerie does give some upsides that Leyline does not. It is a creature. It can protect you against Surgical if needed. It can force the opponent into a misplay.

All correct there! I counted CC in creatures; I had Cabal in the SB because I was tinkering with the ratio of Cabal and Creeping Chill.

Thanks for thorough SB walkthrough.

[Echelon]

I think I'm gonna try Chills over Therapies... Hogaak should work fine as counter bait

[Bougnat]

Hi,

Please find the list I m currently testing :


4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Serum Powder
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gigapede
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Prized Amalgam

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond


I still maintain leyline of sanctity must be included in you SB, it’s the only real solution against bojuka bog. Without, we are a bye for all land decks.

With contagion and Lion’s eye diamond, you have a real chance to mulligan and find the card you want, that’s why they are here. I prefer phantasmagorian rather than gigapede but gigapede is here because we need a minimum of green card for force of vigor.
Serum of powder is here because we want to reach our extremely powerful cards in SB, and thanks to the new London mulligan the power of this card has increased.