[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

[Whoshim]

That is an interesting take. I suppose the Serum Powders may be good enough to replace the Shambling Shells, but I am not sure. The reason I would play Shambling Shell over Serum Powder is that Shambling Shell is a black and green creature, which is relevant for Unmask, Ichorid, Force of Vigor, and Nether Shadow. Also, if you run Shambling Shell, then you can run Phantasmagorian over Gigapede.

Also, there are no Spies or Riders or Drakes, etc., to speed the dredging. You only have Street Wraith to give some acceleration. If you don't have any acceleration, I would cut the Flayer and add an extra Dread Return. Then I would probably just change the Dread Returns to something else, and go for the grindy game plan since you are most of the way there. Jamming down Narcomoebas, Nether Shadows, and Ichorids with Hogaak, Prized Amalgams, and zombies tagging along is not a bad plan. The Dread Returns right now will only bring back a beefy creature, and we now have Hogaak for that. I am not sure what I would put into that slot. Dryad Arbor, maybe, or Phantasmagorian?

I am always open to brewing and new ideas, but I think the changes have made the deck weaker. Theory does not beat playtesting though, so please let us know how things go with the deck.

[Bougnat]

Yes your feedback is good. The maindeck is less powerfull than a classic list but with a big choice for the SB.
The reason is : We play between 50% and 66% of our parties with SB cards, that’s why I always think about a deck of 75 cards and not 60 + 15 less important. And bojuka is clearly a huge problem for me.

I never think before about your idea removing dread return + flayer. Now we have effectively a solution with hoggak to play a big creature, and if I remove spy this mean also dread is less useful. Gigapede is less powerful than phantasmagorian , so I ll switch them and add dryad arbor in place of dread.

Let’s try and thanks for your advice /feedback !

Horde Manaless :


4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Serum Powder
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Prized Amalgam

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond

[Whoshim]

I like the idea of thinking in terms of the 75 and not 60 + 15, though I don't do it very well yet.

One thing I realized when I talked about removing Dread Return is that we do lose the ability to sacrifice 3 creatures to make extra zombies, though that is not usually as important as having Cabal Therapy to sacrifice the first one or two creatures.

[GoldenCid]

I am not sure about the need of unmask main.

It slow down our loved DDD plan. Honestly i do not loose any G1. The problem comes out G2 or G3. There i come into unsmask and other stuff.

I dont own hogaak yet so i played last week the FoW version.


I dislike Leylines because they are pretty dead ¡, realy pretty dead, if there arent in the openeing. Mull is terrible for the deck.

[Bougnat]

Mulligan is possible to find the leyline with unmask and Lion’s eye diamond :)

[Whoshim]

GunofMercy's 5-0 League deck here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2019-07-13

Creature (49)
3 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
1 Greater Mossdog
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Whirlpool Rider

Sorcery (7)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard (15)
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Will
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sickening Shoal


There are 17 dredgers, 2 Hogaaks, and both Forces. Also just 3x Nether Shadow and Dread Return. I think the Riders should have been Drakes though.

[Scott]

I do prefer local paper Magic, but this episode (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33083-EP-9-%97-Chasing-Waterfalls-The-Eternal-Glory-Podcast) of the Eternal Glory podcast convinced me to play on MTGO too. I'm enjoying it.

I'm still getting familiar with MTGO play, but I played a league this weekend and went 4-1. Figured I'd post a list and nano-report.

2-0 against D&T
1-2 against Academy Rector Nic Fit. In games 2 and 3 both of us started out with Leyline of the Void out lol. In game 2, I won through 2 Leyline of the Voids and 1 Ground Seal. One Force of Vigor took out the first Leyline of the Void and the Ground Seal, and my second Force of Vigor took out the second, hardcast Leyline. Force of Vigor is great.
2-0 against U/W Stoneblade
2-0 against BUG Delver
2-1 against a Bant deck with Arcum's Astrolabe, Terminus, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang Coatl, Mirri's Guile, and Teferi, Time-Raveler. Really grindy games.

// Creatures (48)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
3 Balustrade Spy
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Gigapede

// Sorcery (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

// Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Serum Powder
SB: 3 Sickening Shoal
SB: 1 Gigapede

[Whoshim]

Scott, what matches did you bring in Serum Powder for, and how did it work out? How about the second Gigapede?

[Echelon]

So I ran the CT-less list today. Definetely had some games where Chill not being Therapy cost me the game. For now I'm afraid I'm reverting to my CT safety blanket.

[Whoshim]

CT does two/three big things for the list (sac a creature and clear the path for DR/slow our opponent down), and it doesn't matter whether we mill it or it is in our opening hand (since we can usually get it in the graveyard with Phantasmagorian). Creeping Chill increases our clock and keeps us from dying a little, but we can't have it in our opening hand (if we DR Rider/Drake, we usually have enough to win anyway, so putting it back in the deck won't matter). It is a nice card to have, but CT is the stronger spell. I do think that 1-2x Creeping Chill in the 75 is not a bad way to go to help with Dark Depths or Burn, but I don't think 4x is the way to go with the release of Hogaak and Force of Vigor.

[Manroe]

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new to the manaless version of dredge and I was hoping a more advanced pilot could please give some insight on how to mulligan properly, especially in the face of a known leyline of the void with Force of Vigor in mind.

Thank you!

[Scott]

Scott, what matches did you bring in Serum Powder for, and how did it work out? How about the second Gigapede?

It hasn't come up much in my first week on MTGO, but I've liked it in paper. It comes in against anything that features a near auto-loss for Manaless, in this deck that 95% of the time doesn't want to mulligan. e.g. Powder + Force of Vigor against LotV/RiP/Cage, Powder + Shoal/Contagion vs. Priest/Ooze, Powder + LotV vs. graveyard combo. Manaless is unique in both truly requiring sideboard answers and being allergic to mulligans to find them.

With the opponents wielding the London Mulligan for graveyard hate, the odds of drawing a 4-of aren't high enough for me. It's also nice with LotV on MTGO with B/R Reanimator everywhere, and presumably the equally rampant Bomberman, but I don't have a ton of games against it to know the impact. It's not like the other plans of Karn and Mentor are as scary to us. Although in that match up there's a sideboard balancing act because they probably bring in Priest so you want Shoals/Contagion, but still want the combo kill cards because of Bridge via Karn. But the match up topic is another discussion. Like most combo, it's tough, but I'll see how I fare with LotV. Some metas will want different combo hate cards.

I haven't run numbers, but you're quite likely to get your required answer with 3-4 answers and 3-4 powders. In paper I've routinely had "mulligans" like: Opening 7 with Powder and no Force of Vigor -> New opening 7 with Powder and no Force -> New opening 7 with Force

It consolidates the sideboard. It's not quite the same because it's only good on your opening hand and you can't draw into it, but it's like having 7 LotV, 7 FoV and 6 Sickening Shoals.

Another route is to go :g: and :u:, so that you have multiple cards to answer RiP and Cage. I tried to make that work, and it has some nice things, like FoW answering everything but LotV and stopping RiP before its EtB effect, but I'm not big on it for a few reasons. There's the aforementioned space issue; you're probably low on Contagion effects or combo hate. And, again, post-London Mulligan, you only have four shots at a LotV answer in FoV. The blue route game me headaches in two other ways.

The main reason is sideboarding. You're bringing in a half dozen cards but can't board out the combo package because you need Whirlpool creatures for the blue count, so you end up watering down business and often sputtering. Of course, even with a list like mine, sometimes it's better to keep the combo in if you're sideboarding. You may need speed, or you may not need Cabal Therapy because there are no counter spells or there's Chalice, or you can take out some Shambling Shells because you're not boarding in Force of Vigor and Shambling Shell consistency is worth less than your sideboard cards, etc.

Secondly, with Hogaak we're now even more incentivized to dump our hand with Phantasmagorian, and it doesn't always come up, but it creates complications with Whirlpool reanimation, and same as before, can slow you down with fewer recurring creatures, Bridges, Therapies, etc.

Gigapede always helps smooth things out, especially with Phantasmagorian. It's another green card for FoV, and especially shines in post board games when it frees you up to shrink your hand size with pitch cards, and still be able to get back a dredger from your hand. The main deck Gigapede is basically the best of mediocre options. Ideally, I think the deck wants another card that gets things going, like a 5th Ichorid, but there is none. I don't like early counter-able cards and I like cards that work from the graveyard; Gigapede fits the bill, and can often discard an Ichorid or Nether Shadow stuck in hand in the early game to get things going, triggering Prized Amalgam or getting you Bridge tokens. So it comes in when you bring in FoV, or when you bring in Shoal and have room. I've liked it.

My thoughts are still evolving so this isn't set in stone, and there are other routes to explore.

[Whoshim]

Great write-up! Thanks!

[Scott]

Great write-up! Thanks!

Anytime! Oh, also, I forgot to mention another time you bring Gigapede in: against Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb, so you can discard more than one card in a turn, while maintaining maximum hand size and get right back to discarding and dredging after they pop it.

[GoldenCid]

Force of vigor changed my life!!!!:smile:

[Scott]

Really interesting to see Edge of Autumn being paired with the Dryad Arbor/Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package, in this list from TheSleepingEye that 5-0'd a MTGO league (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2019-07-27).

// Creature (36)
4 Bloodghast
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
3 River Kelpie
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

// Sorcery (12)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Edge of Autumn

// Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Land (8)
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Contagion
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Petrified Field
SB: 1 Reverent Silence

[GoldenCid]

I think autumn version is more interesting than effective, specially post side. However 5-0 is pretty nice.

[Scott]

I think autumn version is more interesting than effective, specially post side. However 5-0 is pretty nice.

Basically my take too. I goldfished it ~50 times and it felt like it has the capability to sometimes be more explosive, but is less consistent overall.

[Lava Snacks]

My meta is pretty Marit Lage-heavy. Are there any cards that Manaless can play that shut Turbo Depths down? I could put Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard for Bojuka Bog and discard, but I'll prob just get a 20/20 to the face anyway. I'm fine with just chalking it up as a loss, but wanted to double-check I wasn't missing any stronk mana-free sideboard hosers.

[ESG]

My meta is pretty Marit Lage-heavy. Are there any cards that Manaless can play that shut Turbo Depths down? I could put Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard for Bojuka Bog and discard, but I'll prob just get a 20/20 to the face anyway. I'm fine with just chalking it up as a loss, but wanted to double-check I wasn't missing any stronk mana-free sideboard hosers.

Yeah, it's always fine to ask.

The matchup is somewhat unfavorable. The main ways Manaless Dredge loses are to a Turn 2 Marit Lage or to Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. The Crop Rotation + Bog line is just a bullet you have to dodge. Leyline of Sanctity isn't worth it in this matchup, in my opinion. There's so much redundancy in Turbo Depths that giving up a turn to prevent Bog just results in dying to Marit Lage.

I think it's best to simply DDD and cycle Street Wraith so that you preserve your ability to discard to hand size. If you move in too early on Phantasmagorian, they can permanently shut the door on you with Bog.

Creeping Chill is a strong card in the matchup. It usually buys you another turn, which usually leads to a Narcomoeba, giving you another turn, which can result in a lethal Dread Return. If you play Contagion or Sickening Shoal in your sideboard, those cards can shrink Marit Lage enough to buy you another turn. Likewise, if you run enough green cards, Nourishing Shoal, while much worse, could do the same. For those with a heavy-blue list, there's probably the best answer in Snapback. I really like Snapback, but lists seem to be skewing green these days for Force of Vigor.

Now for some really wacky and narrow options ... Ornithopter: It blocks and they can't even Sejiri Steppe through it. Dark Sphere is obviously way out there, but the art is badass. I enjoy unexpected angles and experimental sideboards, so if I was playing at a local with this deck and expected to run into a lot of Turbo Depths, I might be tempted to play an assortment of lands: Karakas, Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter. The main way Turbo Depths interacts with troublesome lands is via Pithing Needle, and Depths players will probably name Phantasmagorian. If you lose the die roll and they don't know what deck you're playing, they may just name Wasteland with a Needle on Turn 1.

[mistercakes]

I think autumn version is more interesting than effective, specially post side. However 5-0 is pretty nice.

that name has come up with manaless for quite some time. probably flawless execution of the deck.

[ESG]

Hi everyone, I'm pretty new to the manaless version of dredge and I was hoping a more advanced pilot could please give some insight on how to mulligan properly, especially in the face of a known leyline of the void with Force of Vigor in mind.

Thank you!

Hi, Manroe. I noticed you didn't get any replies. Can you clarify your question? Are you asking what to board in and out?

If that's not your question, I'll try to speak generally about the scenario: Your deck loses to Leyline, so you're really playing your opponent. If your opponent knows you lose to Leyline, he or she will mulligan to it. Thus, you should assume it will be there and mulligan aggressively to Force of Vigor, since that's your best hope. Alternatively, you can keep your seven and just hope to draw Force of Vigor in the first two turns. If your opponent is newer to Legacy, then you can keep your seven and take the gamble. Most decks that play Leyline can't hardcast them, so if you don't see it Turn Zero, you're in the clear.

At this point, because of the state of Modern right now, I don't think the latter situation is probable anymore. Also, with the London mulligan, it's less punishing to mulligan deep for a hate card. Mulligans are obviously awful for Manaless Dredge, so that puts the deck at a sizeable disadvantage. Still, there's an actual good answer to Leyline now compared to the tortured sideboard plans people resorted to before in order to not just scoop to Leyline.

[Lava Snacks]

@ESG Those are awesome ideas, thanks a lot. I actually already have Sickening Shoal in my sideboard and totally hadn't thought of boarding it in to buy myself another turn. I'm gonna try that, probably boarding out some combination of Phantasmagorian and Cabal Therapy.

[ahg113]

Thinking about this list. I'm not wild about leylines. Debating whether or not to include Serum Powders. What are folks opinions? I'm not as keen on Lotleth without running Progentitus, may swap it back for a Flayer. Not totally set on the SB, I do enjoy the 4th Hogaak turned into a Gigapede. Opinions?

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Gigapede
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

SB
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Vigor
4 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal

[ahg113]

Ok, bump with a sb opinion follow-up question. (I miss the former activity around this place, nostalgia, i member.)

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Gigapede
3 ? (Chancellor/Chill/Rider/Serum/Contagion)

What's the most value catch-all card to go in there? Thinking Rider or Chancellor, as I expect storm and S'n'T to be present in the local meta. The extra Gigapede follows Force into the deck, and it comes in against lands especially, or other non RiP/LotV decks.

[ESG]

@ahg113: Ashen Rider does more against Show and Tell than Chancellor of the Annex does against Storm, so I'd go with that. I also prefer Mindbreak Trap over Chancellor in a metagame with more Storm. Yeah, Chancellor has wider applicability, but it's easy to play through from the opposing side. From the Storm side, they have to guess whether or not you are bringing in Leyline of Sanctity, so they'll probably hedge and bring in some bounce spells, usually shaving some discard spells, which gives your hidden information higher value.

I think Serum Powder is defensible if you're playing in a room full of Leylines, but I don't care for it otherwise. Frankly, I wouldn't play this deck in a hostile field. This deck is best when people's graveyard hate is one-time and targeted rather than global and persistent. Up the page a bit, Scott reported liking Serum Powder in his build. If you play Serum Powder, it will help you find specific answers in postboard games, but it effectively shrinks your sideboard slots to 11 or 12, so weigh the pros and cons.

[WarpWorld]

@esg I don't like Ashen in the show and tell matchup they tend to board out all of their shows in post board games because it is generally better for us than them.

[ahg113]

Hey all,

First off, I did end up going with Ashen Rider instead of Chancellor, for the reasons given. I also made a few other mods decklist below. I took this for a spin at a Legacy event in Philly, part of a series. Out of 18 people (small crowd), I came in 9th. C'est la vie.

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Gigapede
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

4 Faerie Macabre
1 Gigapede
3 Ashen Rider
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal

Didn't run into any S'n'T (nor storm), so the Riders weren't needed. Neither were the Faerie's as there wasn't any gy shenanigans. I always boarded in the FoV (used once), and often the Shoals. I may switch to a three Contagion, lots of dudes in the paper scene. Siding out was often a: Spy, D.Return, Phanta, Lotleth/Flayer, as the first four to bring in FoV. Then if bringing in the Shoals, a Shadow, 2nd Phanta, 2nd Dread Return. The 2nd Gigapede didn't come in all that often, but I'd drop another Phanta if doing so.

8/4/2019 - Red Cap's Legacy

Rd 1 (0-0-1) Galen - Humans
G1, I win the roll, choose to play, opponent none the wiser (he's inexperienced against the deck.) This game took forever, I think there was 20 minutes left in the round at the conclusion. We had a stalemate of sorts, staring contest. He had a Thalia in play that slowed me down, because I'm staring at the combo in my GY, but don't have that pesky 1 mana to cast anything. He does crack in with his team, hopped up on +1/+1 counters for 8 with a Thalia, Noble H., Captain, and tokens. I crack him with a Hogaak and narco down to 11, Hogaak down to 3 (then lots and lots of staring), a narco down to 2. He gets impatient and decides to attack with his Thalia. That's an easy decision to block. My turn, cast my dread return, flip deck, win.

G2, he chooses to play, goorvy. I mull to 6 looking for a FoV or Shoal. I get two Shoals in my new 6. He gets a fast start, and I pitch a GGT, which he surgicals. This is a play error on my part as I didn't have a wraith, and I did have a Gigapede. There was no need to expose my dredger at that point. It still could've gotten goinked in my upkeep, but learning lesson. While losing GGT isn't crippling, it just took too long to DDD because of the mulligan as well. Got over ran, it felt like playing Sligh.

G3, I chose to draw. This game went into turns. He surgicaled Hogaak, and started to beat down with Champion, he casted a Pontiff that did some work. Had it kept playing out, he may have been ahead, but the game ends in a draw.

Rd 2 (0-1-1) Charles - Elves
G1, I won the roll, chose to draw. Yep, sometimes you just get got. He activates a Scooze early in the game, eats 5 dudes in one turn, I think I dredged twice, and I quickly concede (I'm at 11, he's at 25, has all of the mana).

G2, chose to draw. I boarded in Shoal, and I did get to kill a Scooze, which was nice, and I had already discarded a dredger before hand. But then I die to a hoof and dude. Technically, that gets me down to 6, then a hoof attack takes me to 1, and there was no hail mary combo win. The big plays were him making me discard with thoughtseize (Hogaak), and a surgical on Cabal Therapy. Had the Therapy not been taken, with some bridges in my yard, i could've started my game plan in earnest, but I was stopped cold. Well timed in deed.

Rd 3 (1-1-1) G - 12-Post

G1, I win the roll, chose to draw. This is just a bad match-up for 12-post. I win on my third turn through a fast dude beat down. He does take 4 from Sylvan Library. I D.R. a Flayer on t3, he gets to 4 life and concedes as he's dead on board.

G2, he chooses to draw. I draw my seven without looking at them and pass turn. It's akin to not looking at your cards in poker and raising pre-flop. Why did I do this, because G is one of my good friends and we're going to see Hobbs & Shaw after magic. I just run him over with so many dudes. I accelerate the game by using a wraith in response to him attempting to surgical a dredger. At least three ickys, a shadow, and narco, plus some number of bridges making tokens. Game over man.

Rd 4 (1-1-2) Chris - Dark Maverick

G1 I lost the roll, he decides to play. I wraith early, and he gets a Scooze at some point, eats three things- thug, shell*2. I have a gigapede that he does not eat, and use that to pitch a GGT. He takes some minor damage from canopy, a narco hit. On my turn 4 (I think, maybe 5) I combo out and flip the deck.

G2 He chooses to play, he mulliganed. I open a decent'ish hand for a post sb - Fov, Shoal, Hogaak, dread, Prized *3. Well, that'd be nice if there wasn't a t2 Thalia. He also gets a Thalia, Heretic out in play. I made a huge play error here. He had Knights of the Reliquary out and I started playing scared of a Bog play. Looking back on it, I doubt he had a bog. I could've kept returning icky's to self sacrifice to get bridge triggers. I had a D.R. in the yard and should've just went for it. Instead, I had a bad attack that allowed him to sacrifice a Birds of Paradise for the high benefit of exiling the last of my bridges. Thalia, Heretic did some work slowing down my attacks. He also had a Mom and a Scryb Sprite which made attacking, and blocking, difficult. I played it wrong.

G3 I chose to draw. He gets a few attacks in birds and knight with a Noble trigger. I attack a few times with a narco. The game goes to turns, and even though I build up an army, there isn't enough time. The game ends in a draw.


I probably lose Rd 1, and win Rd 4, if the games continue instead of stopping in turns.

Rd 5 (2-1-2) Nathan - Pox

At this point, just playing because I paid for the time and I don't get a chance to sling paper often. My opponent knows what I'm playing and while I have no chance of top 8, he has the smallest of possibilities if he wins. He wins the die roll and proceeds to put me on the play, smart man.

G1, I play, he mulls to 6. He t0 casts a thoughtseize and grabs a Wraith. Not much else is done and I combo out t3 or t4.

G2, I draw, he mulls to 5, He keeps his hand, but isn't paying attention, he doesn't pre-game play his leyline, it puts him on tilt a tad, but it doesn't matter. He hard casts it t1, I already discard a card, but it's not a dredger, and I wouldn't dredge anyway. I'm drawing for a FoV, don't find it, lose to an Angler and Ghast.

G3, I draw. He has Leyline again, plays it pre-game. His turn 0 he casts Thoughtseize, I tank for a second, and then realize I'm holding a FoV. So while I short change myself (down to 4 cards), I get his hate piece and slowly get back into the game. After I start dredging I get in some small beats with a narco, couple shadows, icky. He has both Lili's in play, so I'm attacking those as well as him before any nonsense can occur. Either he concedes, or I combo out, forgot to finish note taking. Cool guy, but I'm definitely the wrong deck for Pox to shine against.


It was a good day. Finish just out of getting my entry fee back in store credit. I expected to see a lot more counterspells/delvers, or just blue flavored decks in general. I really enjoyed the singleton Gigapede in the deck, it's the 4th Hogaak. Unsure about how much a 2nd is needed in the SB. However, I did not play as much against Crop Rotation/Bog as expected, what the 2nd was in there for.

[Scott]

@ahg113 Doesn't the Gigapede just make things so cozy.
I saw you talking about Faerie Macabre, and I was like, that actually takes care of a lot that LotV takes care of, without Time Walking me and without being a permanent to be destroyed, so I played this same list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=1073221&viewfull=1#post1073221) in my last MTGO League, with 4 Macabre in place of 4 LotV. Ended up going 4-1. I don't think the Faeries did anything differently than LotV in this League specifically, but I think I prefer it going forward in general. Maybe you'll try out the Powders and you'll like it so the favor is returned. The Powders won me two games.

BTW, you party poopers selling MTGO treasure chests are missing out by not spinning the wheel :tongue: Of my 5 treasure chests for the finish, 1 of them had a $30 Surgical Extraction, and another had 125 play points, along with other stuff.

1-2 vs. Yawgmoth Nic Fit

Game 1 loss: The game was about to be put out of reach with a Phantasmagorian-assisted graveyard full of Shadows and such, after a Therapy showing no impediments, and an opponent's board with just two lands, when a top decked game 1 Bojuka Bog turned the tables.

Game 2 win: I Serum Powder a hand without FoV and the replacement opening 7 has one. LotV meets FoV. Opponent attacks with two Explorers while I rebuild and he eventually deeds his own Explorers to get rid of my Bridges, with Ichorids and Amalgams threatening. He doesn't draw much else and my creatures keep recurring until I combo out with Spy.

Game 3 loss: LotV again, which meets FoV again. I have a spare FoV. Graveyard fills up but it meets a Bog. I'm still at maximum hand size though, and eventually I recur a number of creatures, and even Sickening Shoal a Tireless Tracker to buy time, but a Titania, Protector of Argoth and Yawgmoth are too much.

2-1 vs. 4-Color Control

Game 1 win: W&6 ultimates and there are a lot of cantrips, removal, and Snapcaster shenanigans, but recurring creatures and Hogaak are too much.

Game 2 loss: Probably a misplay as I respond to a turn 2 Thoughtseize with a Street Wraith to protect the Wraith, and my discarded Imp meets a Surgical. [Edit: I'm actually not sure. He still would have had the option to Surgical my Imp if I had activated Wraith because he could have discarded Wraith and then cast Surgical on Imp. But he may have still taken FoV, intending to Surgical it, and letting me have my dredgers. I don't know if he had two Surgicals from the start. I'd have to think about that.] The Thoughtseize takes my FoV which is also Surgically Extracted after a Brainstorm, so I know he's either leaning on a hardcast LotV or an Ensnaring Bridge. With W&6 on the board, he casts Ensnaring Bridge. I think what happened is that I had boarded out my combo kill, my FoVs had been Extracted, and time was a bit too short to try to get under the Bridge, so I conceded.

Game 3 win: Combo comes back in, and I also have FoV in my opening 7. Bridges get Extracted, Jace hits the board, a Thoughtseize takes my FoV, and then Ensnaring Bridge lands. I get him down to 7, and then he gets his hand below 3 cards so only my one Shadow can attack. He chooses to Brainstorm with Jace rather than return Shadow to my hand. I dredge into a Flayer, tap Shadow and Ichorid to cast a Hogaak, and Dread Return the Flayer, which makes it game.

2-0 vs Blue Artifact

Game 1 win: Karn, Scion of Urza makes tokens, Engineered Explosives on 0 hits the battlefield, and Trinket Mage gets a Crypt, leaving me with an empty GY but a Narcomoeba, 2 Amalgams, and a full hand. I draw into a Wraith, cycle a GGT before blocks into 3 Bridges, block a Construct token, and have tokens and more creatures in the GY. I dredge again, and with only Trinket Mage as a blocker, and lethal or close to lethal presented, the opponent concedes.

Game 2 win: I discard a GGT, which meets a Crypt. I draw a FoV, and discard Golgari Thug with a Wraith in Hand. Opponent casts Karn, the Great Creator and grabs Ensnaring Bridge. My cycled dredge includes 2 Amalgams and a Flayer. Draw step dredge includes Bridge, Dread Return, and Narcomoeba. On his turn, he casts grabs Defense Grid to stop FoV, casts Ensnaring Bridge, and casts a 0/0 Ballista to get rid of my Bridges. On my turn, I Dread Return Flayer, and it deals lethal to my opponent with itself and the returning Amalgams.

2-0 vs. B/R Reanimator

Game 1 win: Concession from opponent when they Faithless Looting a Griselbrand but don't have anything going on, and I have an opening hand with 2 Street Wraiths and Imp as my first dredger.

Game 2 win: My opening 7 has no Faerie Macabres but does have Serum Powder. I Powder into a new opening 7 with 2 Macabres. At the end of my first turn, my opponent Entombs a Griselbrand. On his turn, he tries to Reanimate it, it gets exile by one of my Macabres, and he concedes.

2-1 vs. D&T with Squadron Hawk

Game 1 win: A pretty quick hand with Phantasmagorian overruns the opponent before he gets much going.

Game 2 loss: I Powder away an average hand without anti-hate, and keep a new hand with GGT and Wraith but still no anti-hate. Giver of Runes then Thalia land. My Wraith and draw step dredges are good, and I make the (wrong?) decision to attack with two Narcomoebas and a Prized Amalgam into a Giver of Runes and Thalia, to put the pressure on, knowing he might sacrifice his Thalia to exile my Bridges, my thinking being that I have two Gigapedes in my graveyard, which can trade for a Dread Return and a GGT in my hand, hopefully for a combo kill in a turn or two, or just continue to swarm with Thalia gone. He blocks, exiles my bridges, and casts a 2nd Thalia on his next turn. Welp. After, he Surgically Extracts Ichorid. I still have creatures coming, but a couple get Plowed/Path to Exiled, and then he lands Containment Priest and a playset of Squadron Hawks. I concede.

Game 3 win: I make a mistake at the beginning but I end up winning anyway. After drawing, my opening 8 is GGT, Wraith, FoV, Gigapede, Amalgam, Dread Return, Shambling Shell, and Shadow. He played a Vial off a Rishadan Port, and as he seems to be on the Priest/Surgical plan more than the RiP plan, I'm eyeing it to see if he's relying on Vial. I discard Gigapede thinking I'm saving the Wraith for a possible Surgical response anyway. That would be fine if there wasn't the possibility of using FoV on his turn, as I wouldn't be able to respond to a possible Surgical on Gigapede with a dredge, and I'd have a shrunken hand with no graveyard and missing a possible gotcha moment on Surgical. At the end of his turn, he still has no white source and hasn't played any other spells so I FoV the vial, and then in response to my Gigapede trigger, he Surgicals it. A turn later, he flashes in Containment Priest. He doesn't have a ton more going on, and my hand is good if I can get rid of the Priest, and I draw into Sickening Shoal a couple turns later. I kill Priest with Shoal and he casts Thalia. I Phantasmagorian dump recurring creatures and dredgers and get some more with a GGT dredge. He puts up a fight with blocking tricks with Karakas and multiple Thalias, removal, and even a Force of Virtue, but I have too many recurring creatures and Bridges.

[GoldenCid]

Ok, bump with a sb opinion follow-up question. (I miss the former activity around this place, nostalgia, i member.)

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Gigapede
3 ? (Chancellor/Chill/Rider/Serum/Contagion)

What's the most value catch-all card to go in there? Thinking Rider or Chancellor, as I expect storm and S'n'T to be present in the local meta. The extra Gigapede follows Force into the deck, and it comes in against lands especially, or other non RiP/LotV decks.

I am still sold on fow list. Maybe blue trap because there still are some Storm decks. Mine's looks like:

4 fow
4 vigor
4 contagio
3 macabre

[GoldenCid]

Hi all, yesterday i got 4th place with my manaless dredge. Nothing big: 10 bdies. However is my fisrt "good" performence in a tournament with this deck.
The results:

UW Stoneblade: 1-1 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +4 vigor + 2 shoal
4c wrenn and six atuff: 2-0 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant -1 ride +4 vigor + 2 shoal + 1 contagion
Eldrazi stompy: 2-0 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +4 vigor + 2 shoal
Eleves BG: 0-2 Side plan: -1 shadow, -2 DR, -2 gorian -1 L. giant +3 vigor + 2 shoal +1 contagion

The list:

4 gorian
4 troll
4 thug
4 shell
4 imp
4 ichorid
4 shadow
4 amalgalm
4 therapy
4 dread return
3 hogaak
3 rider
4 moebas
4 bridge
1 giapede
4 wratih
1 flayer
1 giant

SB:

4 fow
4 vigor
2 shoal
2 contagion
3 macabre

Hogaak didint shine but i liked how it played vs priest and how it absorbed counter magic.

I always sideboarded with extraction in mind but as a acceptable cost. That is why i didnt came into fow. I preferred permanent hate stuff over fow which was unnecseary in my match ups.

[Scott]

After the 4-1 league from my last post, I did another league with the same list and got a 5-0.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2019-08-10#scottofficial_-

I faced a Murderers' Row that included Ark4n, Theo_Jung, and MatSole, and ended up going 2-0 in all five matches. My match-ups were Post Ramp, Ark4n on 4-color (:w::u::r::g:) W&6 Control, Goblins (Memories_of_the_Time on the Source, who also posted a 5-0 this week), Theo_Jung on 4-Color Delver, and MatSole on his Depths Hogaak list.

[Sovelis]

Figure I would offer my 2 cents. Been having fun testing this version with locals.

4 Troll
4 Imp
2 Thug
4 Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
3 Hogaak
3 Tishana, Voice of Thunder
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Bridge
4 DR
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill

SB
4 FoW
4 FoV
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Contagion

Only 14 dredgers. Hasn't been too much of an issue. Thug was the cut even though it dredges for 4 due to shell being green for FoV.
Tishana is a pretty reasonable DR target. Blue and Green to pitch to forces. Sometimes it dredges your whole deck, and sometimes it only dredges a few, but usually in the few times, it's enough.
I'm still playing Creeping Chill. I still like it in certain matchups and when you don't have the ability to dredge your entire deck. I could see trimming 1 for another dredger or Gigapede though.
Blue count is a little low so i agree with GoldenCid that Mindbreak Trap might be better than FoW. If that is the case, the dredge your deck DR target could change.

[Whoshim]

With Hogaak, would Prime Speaker Zegana be a better UG DR target on average, from your playtesting?

[Echelon]

Nope, b/c it's only situationally good

[Scott]

I went to SCG Richmond and lost my possible win-and-in for Top 16 in the best possible way: Manaless mirror lol

I ended up in a tie for 37th on breakers, and my final round Manaless opponent finished 18th. At some point I walked past two guys talking, neither of whom I played, and one guy says he lost to Manaless, and the other guy said he talked to someone else who also did and that, "Everyone is losing to Manaless today," so apparently people without lands were having good times. I finished just outside of prize money, but my opponents were really cool, and I definitely had good times myself.

[ahg113]

I went to SCG Richmond and lost my possible win-and-in for Top 16 in the best possible way: Manaless mirror lol

I ended up in a tie for 37th on breakers, and my final round Manaless opponent finished 18th. At some point I walked past two guys talking, neither of whom I played, and one guy says he lost to Manaless, and the other guy said he talked to someone else who also did and that, "Everyone is losing to Manaless today," so apparently people without lands were having good times. I finished just outside of prize money, but my opponents were really cool, and I definitely had good times myself.

Kudos on the good times and representation, bummer that it was so close, but not close enough. Without requesting a full report (unless you want), what did you play against, how did the deck more or less feel? Great to hear positive results.

[Scott]

Kudos on the good times and representation, bummer that it was so close, but not close enough. Without requesting a full report (unless you want), what did you play against, how did the deck more or less feel? Great to hear positive results.

Thanks! The deck felt like it has game and I like my list; I don't have plans to make any changes to it.

Round 1: Jarvis Yu on Dark Depths (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132096). 0-2 loss
Round 2: Some kind of Delver: 2-0 win
Round 3: Miracles. 2-0 win
Round 4: Ross Merriam on Mono Red Stompy. 2-1 win
Round 5: Some kind of Delver. 2-1 win
Round 6: Mono Red Prison (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132101). 1-2 loss
Round 7: Manaless Dredge. 0-2 loss

[ESG]

Thanks! The deck felt like it has game and I like my list; I don't have plans to make any changes to it.

Round 1: Jarvis Yu on Dark Depths (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132096). 0-2 loss
Round 2: Some kind of Delver: 2-0 win
Round 3: Miracles. 2-0 win
Round 4: Ross Merriam on Mono Red Stompy. 2-1 win
Round 5: Some kind of Delver. 2-1 win
Round 6: Mono Red Prison (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132101). 1-2 loss
Round 7: Manaless Dredge. 0-2 loss

Nice run. The Manaless mirror is a pretty rare sight. Also, is Mono-Red Stompy different from Mono-Red Prison? I'm guessing both matches involved Leyline vs. Force of Vigor?

[Tokugawa]

There seems no BG creature which draw multiple cards, while also could be pitched to FoV.

When going FoV but not FoW SB plan, is it effective for replacing spy with Tishana, as keeping more green cards in deck?

[Scott]

Nice run. The Manaless mirror is a pretty rare sight. Also, is Mono-Red Stompy different from Mono-Red Prison? I'm guessing both matches involved Leyline vs. Force of Vigor?

Thank ya. It was actually the same Mono Red archetype in both rounds; I just wrote Stompy once and Prison once for some reason.

I've played that match-up a lot lately, and it's pretty weird, swingy, and difficult to cover all bases. I'd say it's a little worse than 50/50, and my 2-3 record in recent matches bears it out on a small sample size. I bring out Therapy because of Chalice and bring out Phantasmagorian because of Karn into Crypt. I bring in Force of Vigor and Gigapede for LotV (and Serum Powder as they mulligan for LotV) and their artifacts like Bridge, and keep in the combo kill because of Bridge and their clock, but things can really pan out in different ways, because sometimes a Trinisphere will nerf your Force of Vigor and Dread Return (but not Hogaak). Or Rabblemaster kills you before you can rebuild after a Force.

Regarding those two matches in particular, I actually didn't see a LotV in the first match (they did come into play in the second match, but I forget the details), and that's happened before. Sometimes all you see is a Trinisphere, Magus of the Moon, or whatever, and it's pretty easy, but it's not a very comfortable match-up. I'm just happy they can't recur Crypts like that other Karn/Moon deck, Painter. If they haven't put something on the board like a Rabblemaster clock or multiple hate pieces from Karn, the longer game is pretty good, with their pretty poor topdecks.

[cebollinos]

Hello!

I just made an account to post here, it feels like this is the most active manaless dredge community out there. I would like to write down my first tournament report.

I recently got into legacy with manaless dredge, and I decided to make the deck on paper and bring it to my local shop, which runs a 20-30 legacy people event every week, I tried ScottOfficial and Anthony Voloshin versions in Modo, for paper I decided to go with Voloshin’s one just because it runs Chancellor of the Annex, I love that card. But I kinda miss a fourth Dread Return.

List by Anthony Voloshin
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2116914#paper

Round 1 vs Golgari Depths: 0-2

In game 1 I kept a strange hand with just one Shambling Shell and 3 Street Wraths. Sadly, before I could try my luck, my opponent Thoughtseize’d me the first 2 turns and then got a marit lage into play before I could mill a narcomoeba or creeping chill, so dead in one hit.

Game 2: I sideboarded the contagions to kill the elvish reclaimer but did not draw any. I got crop rot - bojuka after my first dredge. The game goes on for a few turns until I manage to get a couple of bridges and some creatures, the bridges are quickly destroyed before I could get any value out of them thanks to the interaction dryad arbor - elvish reclaimer. Next thing I see is a 20/20 hitting my face.

Not too much to say here. Playing under pressure of an instant speed Bojuka Bog from game 1 is not where you want to be. I think one of the worst match-ups so losing 0-2 is fine.

Round 2 vs Bitterblossom brew: 2-0

My opponent was playing some kind of grixis brew with bitterblossoms/jitte main board that I had never seen before. All cards were foil which looked amazing.

In game 1 the deck did what it was supposed to do and comboed turn 3, that felt good after losing 0-2 before.

In game 2 there was no leyline of the void from our opponent. I have a hand with street wraith so I decided to play around surgical. Thankfully the opponent had it in his opening hand so when he used it in our upkeep we are able to fizzle it. From there it was good for us, a few turns left we get to a board state where the opponent is at 4 life (thanks to creeping chills) and has a bitterblossom in play. Game ended with my first win in a Legacy event.

I actually did not sideboard anything because I wanted to see if he had leylines before sideboarding my FoV.

Round 3 vs Miracles: 2-1
Another really beautiful foiled out deck with unhinged lands.
Game 1: Opponent had 2 swords to plowshares but not much else to fight back so we take game 1 with the spy combo.

Game 2: I didn’t manage to mill any cabal therapy early so I got my early dread return countered and opponent managed to stabilize from there. I concede after I see he has in hand 2 swords, 2 snapcaster and 2 spell pierce.

Game 3: Opponent doesn’t draw any of his sideboard hate and we take game 3 with a reanimated golgari grave troll with 12 counters and a Hogaak.

Round 4 vs Urza Artifacts 0-2

Game 1: Opponent has a Karn in turn 3 and goes go get a tormod's crypt, thankfully I didn't have a phantasmagorion in my opening hand, so the game was not completely lost. After popping the first crypt against a very lucky dredge (narcomoeba, amalgam, bridge and something else), he -2 karn again to find another tormods. He then says he is running 3 in total. That and a karn sctruct with power 11 did it.

Game 2: I don't sideboard anything and play all in, my only chance is to combo off before he plays karn to get the tormods. He plays some boubles and draws a lot of cards, unlucky for him he never finds Karn and I kill him with spy combo.

Game 3: He puts us on the play and has a tormods in the opening hand. Play around that for a while until he is 7 life, hoping for a lucky dredge when he gets a Aetherflux Reservoir and I concede.

Not sure what to think about this match up, the only tools they have against manaless is the tormod’s crypt, but he could to them quite fast.

Round 5 vs LED Dredge. 0-2

Nice to see another dredge player. I have no leylines of the void (because budget), or faerie macabres so it's gonna be all or nothing again.

Game 1: He doesnt have LED in hand so that gives me a couple of turns to find my combo. I get to a point where if I dredge a dread return I win (I had the spy and the 3 creatures) but no luck.

Game 2: I put him on the play but he has the nut draw (LED, land and faithless looting) so he flips his deck really fast. I managed to kill his bridges on my turn but it was too late. GG

So in the end I went 2-3 which was great for my first Legacy tournament. 2 of my opponents put me on the draw. That makes me think they are not very used to play against manaless which is good.

The only issue that I see with the deck is that I feel like most of the time is not worth it to sideboard against graveyard hate. I could side in 4 Force of Vigor against Rest in peace or Leyline, since I cannot really mulligan:

If we dont have FoV in our opening hand, he have 4 useless cards in the deck diluting our strategy
If we have it in our own hand and we use it against layline, we are down 2 cards, so oponent gets 3 timewalks for free. Against RiP we get our Gy blown out anyways and also 2 cards less, so another 3 free timewalks for the opponent.

It feels like is just better to play with the main deck and if they draw the nut hate, just concede and move on. What do people think about this?

[Echelon]

@cebollinos You might want to join the Dredge discord :wink:

[JackaBo]

I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’re supposed to run dryad arbors main and 4 forces + 4 claim to have a running chance against leyline.
I think manaless is better the more blue decks you have in the meta. Right now blue is at an all time low so you’re gonna face more leylines, rips, cages, crypt and bogs than ever.
I would play the mighty card type ’land’ if i were to play dredge right now.

[Mister_Lamp]

@cebollinos You might want to join the Dredge discord :wink:

Can you link that or DM me? I’d be very interested in joining.

[Michael Keller]

I don’t think you’re wrong. I think you’re supposed to run dryad arbors main and 4 forces + 4 claim to have a running chance against leyline.
I think manaless is better the more blue decks you have in the meta. Right now blue is at an all time low so you’re gonna face more leylines, rips, cages, crypt and bogs than ever.
I would play the mighty card type ’land’ if i were to play dredge right now.

Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.

[mistercakes]

Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.

it's not ideal, but leyline of sanctity can prevent bojuka bog.

[Michael Keller]

If you scroll back to pages upon pages ago, I’ve been a huge advocate of Leyline of Sanctity in this deck. Of course, times change, too. I’m not sure if it’s worth it, but it does blank discard and Rotation-Bog, which isn’t good for Manaless.

[WarpWorld]

If you scroll back to pages upon pages ago, I’ve been a huge advocate of Leyline of Sanctity in this deck. Of course, times change, too. I’m not sure if it’s worth it, but it does blank discard and Rotation-Bog, which isn’t good for Manaless.I have played them off and on and they have pros and cons but they have won me games. Generally I try to dodge bog matchups and accept my losses when I don't. Leyline might be a good meta call if your local is heavy on bogs. Not sure I would play them in a big event and want a more diverse sideboard.

[ahg113]

Leyline really isn't that popular in Legacy, honestly. This even after the mulligan change. Cage is another card that has kind of disappeared. Bog is honestly the card I'd be most concerned about, because it can't be stopped - unlike the other graveyard removal options. The only way to beat it is to play around it.

That being said, I absolutely believe four Dryad Arbor is the right call in Dredge again. Especially to augment Force of Vigor out of the board.

Also, you can play all-in if you want (as far as just not boarding in anti-hate measures). I personally don't like this strategy. I think you should grab game one a very large portion of the time, and game two becomes more of a test to see what your opponent is doing. Even "diluting" the deck doesn't matter too much, because the deck is still non-interactive with its threats.

So playing arbors means not playing Spy. Are you on a blue version or...???

[Bougnat]

Hi, please find how I have builded my list with leyline :


It is possible to play with leyline but you have to modify your list to include discard on yourself. Thanks to that, you can have Turn 1 Leyline + your dredge discarted, and moreover you can mulligan to find your leyline ! It is a big impact for your SB and impact also your MD, but you want to include to the 75 cards :

4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of void

4 lion eye’s diamond
4 unmask

4 serum powder (to increase the % to find leyline and force)

Total : 20 cards !
Place have to be done in the SB but also MD.....


My list:


4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Force of Vigor
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return


SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond



Unmask and force of vigor are main deck because there is no more place in SB, and can be useful G1 contrary to leyline/led/serum.
This list is less powerful G1 because balustrade spy is not here ( to make place), but you have a really plan with leyline and you don’t concede against bojuka bog. You can hardly search your leyline or your force because you can mulligan, which is not common for Manaless :)
I hope you will like it !

[easysantiago]

Hi, please find how I have builded my list with leyline :


It is possible to play with leyline but you have to modify your list to include discard on yourself. Thanks to that, you can have Turn 1 Leyline + your dredge discarted, and moreover you can mulligan to find your leyline ! It is a big impact for your SB and impact also your MD, but you want to include to the 75 cards :

4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of void

4 lion eye’s diamond
4 unmask

4 serum powder (to increase the % to find leyline and force)

Total : 20 cards !
Place have to be done in the SB but also MD.....


My list:


4 Ichorid
4 Unmask
4 Force of Vigor
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Street Wraith
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Dread Return


SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Lion's Eye Diamond



Unmask and force of vigor are main deck because there is no more place in SB, and can be useful G1 contrary to leyline/led/serum.
This list is less powerful G1 because balustrade spy is not here ( to make place), but you have a really plan with leyline and you don’t concede against bojuka bog. You can hardly search your leyline or your force because you can mulligan, which is not common for Manaless :)
I hope you will like it !

Hell yeah. Might try your list out this week.

[Michael Keller]

I think Unmask is something worth revisiting. It was always one of those cards I really wanted to try, but never could fit it in.

[easysantiago]

I think Unmask is something worth revisiting. It was always one of those cards I really wanted to try, but never could fit it in.

Unmask put in a lot of work for me back when Hollywood's Blue list was the build of choice, often exceeding the upside of running Force of Will.

*Responds to Hollywood himself about Hollywood.*

[Michael Keller]

Unmask put in a lot of work for me back when Hollywood's Blue list was the build of choice, often exceeding the upside of running Force of Will.

*Responds to Hollywood himself about Hollywood.*

I think the key is using Unmask out of the sideboard. You're ideally only going to need it when your hand is depleted and you need to get things rolling again. Theoretically, this is only plausible once you've cast something like Force or another "free" spell.

Of course, you can run it main which is fine. I just think Manaless doesn't need that discard effect until you really start casting spells.

[Lava Snacks]

What do you think is the best way to play Street Wraith against things like Elvish Reclaimer into Bojuka Bog, and Tormod's Crypt? I have been slow-rolling it, and then activating Wraith after they search up Bog/pop Crypt and I've discarded a new dredger after. But I was playing against Depths and I started to think maybe I should activate Wraith early to force them to Bog or Crypt, and then rebuild from there.

[zzap]

Interesting new spoiled card:

Once Upon A Time

Digs deep like Stinky to find a dredger or combo piece. Ups the green count for Vigor. It can instant res to even look for Wraith or Macabre.

The bad? Can be countered or taxed.

[Bougnat]

I think it’s a real good card:
- it’s green
- you have to play it first, this mean you can even against a blue deck discard T1 your dredger, and play one upon a time as instant during T2 opponent to find your street wraith and cycle !

[Bougnat]

After Test, Once Upon a Time is a wonderfull card !

- it's a green card (for force of vigor)
- can be cast during the unkeep T1 of opponent (so without any answer than force of will)
- can be cast to find street wraith of course, but also phantasmagorian, or an ichorid if you have phantasmagorian in the GW, or a better dredger......
- can be cast as an answer to Surgical Extraction ! to find street wraith or at least another dredger if you have only one in GW
- can be cast as an answer to show and tell to find our Balustrade Spy ! I ll add now a Progenitus to my SB .... :)
- can be cast to find Faerie Macabre in some match up

probably other possibility but it's already enougth to play them :cool:

[ahg113]

What did you cut to find room to play it? I'm thinking it has to be a four-of, as it's worthless if not in opening hand/first-draw.

[zzap]

I think of the this card as a fake dredger in the opening hands; sure, it doesn't help after the first, but it can improve a hand that already has GGT, which Stink or Thug cannot do.

I would pull a mixture of Shells and Thugs equaling a full set of Once Upon A Time. It will act to get dredgers up to 14-16 depending on the build.

[Final Fortune]

I think of the this card as a fake dredger in the opening hands; sure, it doesn't help after the first, but it can improve a hand that already has GGT, which Stink or Thug cannot do.

I would pull a mixture of Shells and Thugs equaling a full set of Once Upon A Time. It will act to get dredgers up to 14-16 depending on the build.


A Dread Return, a combo creature, a Hogaak Arisen Acropolis and a Phantasmagorian is a good start, those are the lowest value cards in the deck fwiw. You do not cut Dredgers if you want to play through Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt effects, it's a Manaless Dredge No, No.

4 Once Upon a Time
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hogaak, Arisen Acropolis
3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant

[ronco]

Another possible toy in the set:

https://preview.redd.it/o8nb2u9qhyl31.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&d8816447


Ayara, First of Lockthwain. BBB. Elf Noble.
Whenever ~ or another black creature ETB under your control, each opponent loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
T, sac another black creature - draw a card.

[zzap]

A Dread Return, a combo creature, a Hogaak Arisen Acropolis and a Phantasmagorian is a good start, those are the lowest value cards in the deck fwiw. You do not cut Dredgers if you want to play through Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt effects, it's a Manaless Dredge No, No.

4 Once Upon a Time
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgram
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hogaak, Arisen Acropolis
3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Lotleth Giant

No way. Shambling Shell is by far the weakest card in that list. And who Surgicals dredgers?? They should be targeting critters like Ichorid. And going by your dredging numbers, I only cut 2-4 dredgers in comparison: most if not all SSs. You should be able to play around TC; I did it fine with 12 dredgers + 4 Sphinx.

And you cut Phanty to three. I believe that is a big mistake. OUAT puts pressure to find the engine: Troll + Phant. Why are you trimming the best combo we have? Seems bad.

I think space should be made by either cutting down the DR package or CC, if you run it.

The deck is almost there; we now just need one more Ichorid/Narc level critter because Shadow/Amalgam (my opinion) don't cut it.

[Final Fortune]

No way. Shambling Shell is by far the weakest card in that list. And who Surgicals dredgers?? They should be targeting critters like Ichorid. And going by your dredging numbers, I only cut 2-4 dredgers in comparison: most if not all SSs. You should be able to play around TC; I did it fine with 12 dredgers + 4 Sphinx.

And you cut Phanty to three. I believe that is a big mistake. OUAT puts pressure to find the engine: Troll + Phant. Why are you trimming the best combo we have? Seems bad.

I think space should be made by either cutting down the DR package or CC, if you run it.

The deck is almost there; we now just need one more Ichorid/Narc level critter because Shadow/Amalgam (my opinion) don't cut it.

I think I've played this deck longer than anyone else on this site, the people who cut Shambling Shells generally have little to no experience actually playing through hate. Combo creatures, Dread Return and Hogaak are the best cards to cut because they're the most conditional to play, and as good as Phantasmagorian is to gold fish the main problem with it is that it over commits you into hate post-board - I cut it for SB cards probably more than most of the other cards.

I've had this conversation with novices probably more times than I can recall, you'll learn one way or another how important the redundancy is when you stop face rolling blue decks game 1.

[Bougnat]

Be humble final fortune, you are not the only one playing this deck for a long time and you don’t have only novice reading / answering to this primer :smile:

Both of you are wright. From my point of view, shambling shell is necessary for the redondancy ... but it’s also the weakest card of the deck. Last weeks we have all increased the number of shambling shell because it s a green card for force of vigor, and the number of good green card for Manaless is really poor. Now, with once upon a time it’s different : we have a correct/good green card to add.
We should now consider shambling shell as it was since the beginning , the 13th and more dredger of our deck. Personally I’ll keep 2 shambling shell (for 14 dredger) and will add 4 once upon a time.

[Bougnat]

Last thing seen during test for Once upon a time :
G2 : It possible to play once upon a time, find a narcomoeba and cast force of will thanks to this blue card :wink:

[zzap]

I think I've played this deck longer than anyone else on this site, the people who cut Shambling Shells generally have little to no experience actually playing through hate. Combo creatures, Dread Return and Hogaak are the best cards to cut because they're the most conditional to play, and as good as Phantasmagorian is to gold fish the main problem with it is that it over commits you into hate post-board - I cut it for SB cards probably more than most of the other cards.

I've had this conversation with novices probably more times than I can recall, you'll learn one way or another how important the redundancy is when you stop face rolling blue decks game 1.

You should know better that writing about the quantity of time with the deck is not an argument... Indirectly calling me a novice and inexperienced isn't healthy for anyone here. Try to keep this toxic-free.

Shells are bad no matter how long you have played with them. I wrote, "It's the weakest card in the deck," and it's true. Dredge 3 is absolutely terrible when even Dredge 4 is almost bad too. Both Shells and Thugs are really only dredged to connect to the more powerful dredgers. I believe OUAT replacing Shells can act as a psedo-Stinkweed Imp that can level out to be even a Grave-Troll at times. All at the cost of being interactive; it's a gamble to rely so heavily on Troll and Imp, but it's worth the risk to me.

I play four Phants, while you play three +1 Shell. You may be able to grind through posthate games better when facing "Bog effects," I can accelerate faster through popped RiPs, Cages and Voids. I call this difference bad because I believe your priorities are slightly mixed up, not "indirectly-you-are-noob." The deck has had issues with permanent-based hate for the longest time, but now with FoV the deck has decent chances against that hate. You want as many Phants as you can get your hands on posthate against LoV-like permanents. I'll give you an example:

I was running Aggro Loam with postboard LoV, and my opponent was on Manaless. They poppped LoV with FoV, but they still couldn't come back in time. The mu is in my favor, yes, but I saw that his explosiveness could have been more if there was a Phant in the gy, which there wasn't.

To continue, another problem with this deck is it can have issues racing faster combo decks. In most if not all games, pre/postboard, I believe four Phants are necessary. Turbo Depths is unique here because with the printing of Reclaimer, it's a very difficult matchup: Thoughtseize, Elf, and Crop all in the mainboard. Still, against traditional combo, Phant will pull more weight than an extra Dredge 3.

I'll be a little toxic here, too: you have more experience than anyone here, yet you think people surgical dredgers...:cry:

[zzap]

Last thing seen during test for Once upon a time :
G2 : It possible to play once upon a time, find a narcomoeba and cast force of will thanks to this blue card :wink:

Or Prized Amalgam:wink:

[Final Fortune]

You should know better that writing about the quantity of time with the deck is not an argument... Indirectly calling me a novice and inexperienced isn't healthy for anyone here. Try to keep this toxic-free.

Shells are bad no matter how long you have played with them. I wrote, "It's the weakest card in the deck," and it's true. Dredge 3 is absolutely terrible when even Dredge 4 is almost bad too. Both Shells and Thugs are really only dredged to connect to the more powerful dredgers. I believe OUAT replacing Shells can act as a psedo-Stinkweed Imp that can level out to be even a Grave-Troll at times. All at the cost of being interactive; it's a gamble to rely so heavily on Troll and Imp, but it's worth the risk to me.

I play four Phants, while you play three +1 Shell. You may be able to grind through posthate games better when facing "Bog effects," I can accelerate faster through popped RiPs, Cages and Voids. I call this difference bad because I believe your priorities are slightly mixed up, not "indirectly-you-are-noob." The deck has had issues with permanent-based hate for the longest time, but now with FoV the deck has decent chances against that hate. You want as many Phants as you can get your hands on posthate against LoV-like permanents. I'll give you an example:

I was running Aggro Loam with postboard LoV, and my opponent was on Manaless. They poppped LoV with FoV, but they still couldn't come back in time. The mu is in my favor, yes, but I saw that his explosiveness could have been more if there was a Phant in the gy, which there wasn't.

To continue, another problem with this deck is it can have issues racing faster combo decks. In most if not all games, pre/postboard, I believe four Phants are necessary. Turbo Depths is unique here because with the printing of Reclaimer, it's a very difficult matchup: Thoughtseize, Elf, and Crop all in the mainboard. Still, against traditional combo, Phant will pull more weight than an extra Dredge 3.

I'll be a little toxic here, too: you have more experience than anyone here, yet you think people surgical dredgers...:cry:

Experience matters, you're replacing the engine of a deck with a card that can be countered or discarded, that is completely antithetical to what makes the deck strong vs its good match ups.

I don't think people Surgical Extraction Dredgers, I KNOW people Surgical Extraction Dredgers because I've seen it. Whether or not that is the best stratgy vs Manaless is irrelevant, having your first Dredger RFGed is something that you must have an answer to - and that answer is generally redundancy.

Go ahead and cut Shambling Shells and Golgari Thugs and see what happens, it's only a matter of observation. People have tried every thing under the sun to cut Shambling Shell, Serum Powder was already there and it's uncounterable, and it has never worked out.

I cut Once Upon a Time fron the deck already because it's not particularly helpful and feeds into counter spells. It's worse than Gitaxian Probe, and that card wasn't even that great. So good luck.

[Echelon]

I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.

FWIW my Shamblings Shells aren't going anywhere. No Once Upon A Times for me.

[zzap]

Once Upon A Time does contradict the philosophy of the deck. I like what seems to do for it, though. And, it's just exciting for me to see spoiled cards that might push the deck to be more competitive. Yes, it might very well be not great. I do enjoy the prospect of its spiciness nonetheless.


Experience matters, you're replacing the engine of a deck with a card that can be countered or discarded, that is completely antithetical to what makes the deck strong vs its good match ups.

Great point about it being interactive, as I mentioned earlier. I still don't understand this whole experience story you keep mentioning, though. I've played the deck a lot over the years, but I don't use my experience to polarize this discussion about what's right and wrong. It's too ambiguous, and it comes off as arrogant.


I don't think people Surgical Extraction Dredgers, I KNOW people Surgical Extraction Dredgers because I've seen it. Whether or not that is the best stratgy vs Manaless is irrelevant, having your first Dredger RFGed is something that you must have an answer to - and that answer is generally redundancy.

It totally is relevant, actually, if you want to win competitively. If you start to construct a deck and make decisions based on the irrationality of your opponents, you will end up with a mess of a list that doesn't put up the results against good players. Their bad decisions shouldn't dictate you to make bad decisions as well. Adding or subtracting dredgers because of dubious extractions is bad decision-making.


Go ahead and cut Shambling Shells and Golgari Thugs and see what happens, it's only a matter of observation. People have tried every thing under the sun to cut Shambling Shell, Serum Powder was already there and it's uncounterable, and it has never worked out.

I never wrote that I cut Golgari Thug, but I did write that it was sub-optimal. Shambling Shell is bad, and perhaps Once Upon a Time is bad as well. I have tested Shell, and it's garbage. Because of this, I consider the list incomplete.


I cut Once Upon a Time fron the deck already because it's not particularly helpful and feeds into counter spells. It's worse than Gitaxian Probe, and that card wasn't even that great. So good luck.

Agreed. And Probe was almost great. It needed to be an instant, but it would have been banned sooner. I don't need luck though, as I don't play the deck anymore.


I've had people Surgical my dredger. It's not a smart play, but it is a thing some people do. There's a difference between what people shouldn't do and what they actually do do.

And I've had people stifle my Phantasmagorian? The difference is that, actually, most of the time the good players win, and the bad players lose :laugh:

So, I was wondering about what all choices there are for lethal DR targets: Devil and Giant. Should we consider Syr Konrad as well? I mean, they all are fatal after a Spy or Griselbrand, usually. What about early conditions where our graves are too shallow? An early Konrad shuts off the mirror matchup, which is cool. He also is the best target against Elesh, which is hate against us in Reanimator. Thoughts?

[Bougnat]

I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle it’s a little better than giant. I didn’t know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed :smile:

[Final Fortune]

People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.

I am fine with Lotleth, black creatures feed Ichorid and Hogaak so they are preferable.

[zzap]

People will gamble on extracting the first dredger, because if you don't have another then you're stuck in top deck mode. Stripping business out of the deck tends to be a lost cause, you are so redundant on business that the deck doesn't care if it loses any one set. The strategy works especially well vs people who cut Shambling Shell, because they don't have the 2nd dredger in hand to keep going. No card you can add to the deck gives it enough value in order to open it up to another angle of attack from the starting hand, that is why Shambling Shell gets played.

Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic :cool:

[zzap]

I usually play Flayer of the Hatebound because against a tabernacle it’s a little better than giant. I didn’t know konrad I ll have a look to it. Nice to see what we think fixed can still be discussed :smile:

Yeah, Flayer is better against Tabernacle for sure. But, this is where Ichorid shines because of its haste.

Konrad seems really decent against, as mentioned, Elesh Norn. It also protects your grave from late sweeps.

[Final Fortune]

Renaming bad plays as gambles doesn't change anything here. And, it's not a sound strategy by any means. Good players know that Manaless cannot get off the ground until Ichorid and Narco hit the field. Dredge all day with as many Shells as you want; you won't be digging that deep anyways with them. Double surgical or surgical and snap or surgical and dreadhorde on recursive creatures cripples this deck harder than targeting dredgers and gambling that you don't have Street Wraith AND a different dredger in hand, which you naturally pitch next turn anyways and start the engine up. This is all obvious, so I'd suggest against making deck construction choices hoping your opponents don't know how to play against Manaless.

If you decide to run Shambling Shell for the value and consistency, than that's a different topic :cool:

I am actually really surprised that you haven't seen this, if you do the math on the odds of having Street Wraith in hand or a second Dedger with only 12 in the deck it's not that bad of a chance to win outright on tempo. Most people who sandbag Surgical Extraction get run over because the deck just plows through them with its redundancy fwiw, Hogaak upped that game quite a lot. Letting the deck get rolling is its own risk, IMO.

[Scott]

Looks like Manaless got 17th and 45th (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/d87bk2/gp_atlanta_964_decks/) at GP Atlanta

[John Tollison]

Looks like Manaless got 17th and 45th (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/d87bk2/gp_atlanta_964_decks/) at GP Atlanta

Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.

[WarpWorld]

Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.Congrats. What were your matchups for the 2 days?

[ahg113]

Hi. John here. I was 17th place, and I played against 45th place in a mirror match in the last round (table 15).

I live in SC, and I wanted to play in Atlanta despite never having played Legacy, so I looked for a cheap deck to get in the door. Luckily, I stumbled onto the metagame choice of the day as I saw seas of Blue decks all over. I actually drove down Saturday morning, planning on driving back Saturday night, but did much better than expected and had to change plans. One of my match losses was unambiguously lost to a missed trigger on a Bridge, so a better player than me may very well have made Top8.

Among other things, I read through posts here to prepare, so I thought I'd stop back by and say thanks.

Very cool, congrats on a wonderful outing. Would you mind sharing your deck list, thoughts on the days events?

[John Tollison]

Congrats. What were your matchups for the 2 days?

The 3 matches I lost were,

ANT, 0-2. He ran over me in the first game. In the second, he was forced to Ad Nauseum to 1 life, and... roll the dice again, finding a LED which let him keep going and kill me. It's one of only 2 points in the day that I remember being unlucky.

Miracles. 1-2(I think). I mis-sideboarded, getting fixated on the possibility of Containment Priest and forgot about RiP.

Hypergenisis. 1-2. This was very close. My opponent had a couple of significant topdecks, and I missed a Bridge From Below trigger that clearly cost me the match.


Otherwise, I played... another Miracles deck, 3-4 Sneak and Show decks, a Delver/Depths hybrid, several Temur Delver decks, and the mirror match.

[John Tollison]

Very cool, congrats on a wonderful outing. Would you mind sharing your deck list, thoughts on the days events?

My starting point was the Acton, MA, list on mtgdecks. I played Lotleth instead of Flayer, and the SB had a 4th contagion over Ashen Rider, and Faerie's over Leylines. I'm not sold on Mindbreak Traps.


3 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard
4 Contagion
4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap


My last round opponent was playing Dryad Arbors and Flayer, and no Balustrade Spys.

This isn't quite the kind of deck I normally play, but I like it well enough and plan to keep it as my Legacy deck for those few events a year when I need one.

[ryscott85]

My starting point was the Acton, MA, list on mtgdecks. I played Lotleth instead of Flayer, and the SB had a 4th contagion over Ashen Rider, and Faerie's over Leylines. I'm not sold on Mindbreak Traps.


3 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Creeping Chill
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard
4 Contagion
4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap


My last round opponent was playing Dryad Arbors and Flayer, and no Balustrade Spys.

This isn't quite the kind of deck I normally play, but I like it well enough and plan to keep it as my Legacy deck for those few events a year when I need one.

First off, congrats on your top finish in the event!How did you feel about the changes you made, specifically flayer over giant?

[John Tollison]

First off, congrats on your top finish in the event!How did you feel about the changes you made, specifically flayer over giant?

I never played it with the Flayer. Lotleth just seemed more to the point, with the one big hit. I don't claim to have a feel for the balancing considerations though, and can't offer any real insight.

There are times the Ashen Rider could've come in. I probably have too much of a bias against singleton SB cards. I'm sure I will try Once Upon a Time. It's the kind of card I'm drawn to. I'll probably put the Ashen rider back in the SB for Show and Tell then. Maybe I won't keep all 4 Faeries since Once Upon a Time can find them. Mindbreak Traps could become Leylines of Sanctity.

[ryscott85]

I never played it with the Flayer. Lotleth just seemed more to the point, with the one big hit. I don't claim to have a feel for the balancing considerations though, and can't offer any real insight.

There are times the Ashen Rider could've come in. I probably have too much of a bias against singleton SB cards. I'm sure I will try Once Upon a Time. It's the kind of card I'm drawn to. I'll probably put the Ashen rider back in the SB for Show and Tell then. Maybe I won't keep all 4 Faeries since Once Upon a Time can find them. Mindbreak Traps could become Leylines of Sanctity.

Thanks! Ha, I actually forgot to ask you on my last post. How did you like the faeries? I’ve seen many use leyline over them, but mulling seems like it’d be very, very bad for this deck,however; it is very potent if you can mill into one.

[John Tollison]

Thanks! Ha, I actually forgot to ask you on my last post. How did you like the faeries? I’ve seen many use leyline over them, but mulling seems like it’d be very, very bad for this deck,however; it is very potent if you can mill into one.

I only brought the Faeries in once, in the last round. The first miracles players I faced commented that he had taken his graveyard hate out, so maybe this is a trend? Mostly, I was just saying that Once Upon a Time could fetch them, so I'd probably drop one.

[GolgariGlenRoss]

Longtime listener. First time caller.

I have been testing with Once Upon a Time, and I don't like anything beyond a single copy, because it increases interaction, without a guaranteed consistency of speeding up the deck.

I also play a different version of the deck than most people. I don't play Creeping Chill (unless I suspect a Depths heavy meta), because it does nothing to assist the Spy combo from coming to fruition. I also don't play Prized Amalgam, because they're too slow, and as a combo deck, I want to win before my opponent can establish themselves. If I wanted to be on the sideways plan, I would play LED Dredge.

Here is the list I am going to run when OUAT is released:


MAIN-DECK
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Ichorid
4 Vine Dryad
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Once Upon a Time
4 Dread Return

SIDEBOARD
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Sickening Shoal
4 Force of Vigor

[ESG]

Longtime listener. First time caller.

I have been testing with Once Upon a Time, and I don't like anything beyond a single copy, because it increases interaction, without a guaranteed consistency of speeding up the deck.

I also play a different version of the deck than most people.

Awesome username! Vine Dryad is pretty unorthodox, but it's reasonable fodder for Dread Return and helps the green count after sideboard. What's the logic for Flayer of the Hatebound over Lotleth Giant?

[GolgariGlenRoss]

Awesome username! Vine Dryad is pretty unorthodox, but it's reasonable fodder for Dread Return and helps the green count after sideboard. What's the logic for Flayer of the Hatebound over Lotleth Giant?

My logic is that since we are a combo a deck, once we Spy, it often doesn't matter which card is slotted. If we don't combo, I think Flayer affords the deck with a better chance to grind out wins in Plan B mode.

[GolgariGlenRoss]

After more tests, I was wrong about Once Upon a Time. The card is awesome.

https://www.manalessdredge.com/2019/10/once-upon-time-twice-thrice_4.html

[Final Fortune]

Awesome username! Vine Dryad is pretty unorthodox, but it's reasonable fodder for Dread Return and helps the green count after sideboard. What's the logic for Flayer of the Hatebound over Lotleth Giant?

What's the point of Vine Dryad when you could just play Basking Rootwalla? You're RFGing a resource instead of just playing a free creature off of Phantasmagorian or your discard phase?

[GoldenCid]

Hi you all, next week i will push this configuration (not convinced at all). Advice is welcome.

4 thug
4 moeba
4 shadow
3 amalgalm
4 shel
4 sitnkweed imp
4 ichorid
3 spy
4 golgari troll
4 wraith
2 hogaak
1 giant
4 gorian

4 therapy
3 chill
4 dread return

4 bridge

SB:

3 macabre
2 black shoal
4 vigor
4 blue trap
2 contagion

[Scott]

@GoldenCid Only 14 green sources for FoV will cause you to lack a pitch card every once in a while, so that's something you could look at

[ESG]

What's the point of Vine Dryad when you could just play Basking Rootwalla? You're RFGing a resource instead of just playing a free creature off of Phantasmagorian or your discard phase?

Not my list. I was replying to GolgariGlenRoss, who said his goal was to combo as fast as possible with a Spy build. My guess is unless you have Phantasmagorian, Basking Rootwalla is more likely to be stranded in hand, whereas Vine Dryad could enable a faster Dread Return. Personally, I haven't tried either option, so I don't know which is superior.

[Scott]

The bad news: Tiebreakers caused me to just miss out on top 8, so I didn't get an invitation to the Format Championship.

The good news: I finished 9th out of 150 in today's quarterly Format Playoff, and I'm really happy about that :smile: Manaless is sweet.

It's the same list as this one (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31532&iddeck=270880). Don't hesitate to ask questions if you have any. I remember a lot of it, and I can check the replays if it's something specific I forgot.

6-2
2-1 Aggro Loam
2-0 Blood Sun Stompy/Red Eldrazi
2-0 RUG Delver. They finished 18th
0-2 Elves. They finished 3rd
1-2 RUG Delver. They finished 1st
2-0 Esper creature deck
2-0 Jund. They finished 25th
2-1 BUG Once Upon a Time Death's Shadow. They finished 21st

My favorite moment: A player I've never played before winning the die roll and putting me on the play game 1 :laugh:

[ahg113]

The bad news: Tiebreakers caused me to just miss out on top 8, so I didn't get an invitation to the Format Championship.

The good news: I finished 9th out of 150 in today's quarterly Format Playoff, and I'm really happy about that :smile: Manaless is sweet.

It's the same list as this one (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31532&iddeck=270880). Don't hesitate to ask questions if you have any. I remember a lot of it, and I can check the replays if it's something specific I forgot.

6-2
2-1 Aggro Loam
2-0 Blood Sun Stompy/Red Eldrazi
2-0 RUG Delver. They finished 18th
0-2 Elves. They finished 3rd
1-2 RUG Delver. They finished 1st
2-0 Esper creature deck
2-0 Jund. They finished 25th
2-1 BUG Once Upon a Time Death's Shadow. They finished 21st

My favorite moment: A player I've never played before winning the die roll and putting me on the play game 1 :laugh:

Awesome showing. Aside from the missed tie breakers, how'd everything go for you? Just highlight a couple of sweet plays from the day.

Did you notice a lot of graveyard hate to play through? SB strategies, always important, how did you typically play it?

And the two matches you lost, how did they play out, were you never in it or ?

[Scott]

The bad news: Tiebreakers caused me to just miss out on top 8, so I didn't get an invitation to the Format Championship.

The good news: I finished 9th out of 150 in today's quarterly Format Playoff, and I'm really happy about that :smile: Manaless is sweet.

The even better news :D

https://i.imgur.com/EJkUkFY.png


Awesome showing. Aside from the missed tie breakers, how'd everything go for you? Just highlight a couple of sweet plays from the day.

Did you notice a lot of graveyard hate to play through? SB strategies, always important, how did you typically play it?

And the two matches you lost, how did they play out, were you never in it or ?

Thanks a lot! I felt like a report would answer your questions more roundly.

Round 1. 2-1 Aggro Loam

Game 1 win: They landed KotR on turn 3, but follwing an earlier Wraith and then a Phantasmagorian, I had the combo set up before any activations

Game 2 loss: They mull to 3 for a LotV and I don't see a FoV

Game 3 win: Seeing their aggressive mull, I mull to 6, Powder away that 6, mull that 6 into a 5 with FoV. They mull to 6 for a LotV, a slower hand. FoV takes out the LotV and a Library. They land Confidant and play a Bojuka Bog to get rid of my first discarded dredger, Imp. A brief standout ensues when they have Thalia, Confidant, and PFire, and I have a slew of creatures and Bridges. I land Hogaak, they Crop Rotation for Karakas, and PFire their Thalia to get ride of Bridges. 2nd Thalia lands, but my creatures keep coming and overwhelm Swords and Decay

Sideboarding: I probably did something like -4 Therapy -4 Phantasmagorian, +4 FoV +3 Sickening Shoal +1 Gigapede before Game 2 and -4 Therapy -4 Phantasmagorian -2 Spy -1 DReturn, +4 FOV +3 Sickening Shoal +3 Powder +1 Gigapede before Game 3
Therapy out b/c of Chalice, Phantasmagorian out b/c of Bog, Shoal in for Ooze. I may have boarded in Powders for Game 2

Round 2. 2-0 Blood Sun Stompy/Red Eldrazi

Game 1 win: They land Chalice, then I discard Imp instead of Phantasmagorian because I don't know if they're playing Karn (into Crypt). Their turn 2 Reality Smasher and turn 3 Rabblemaster are threatening, but I discarded Phantasmagorian on my second discard, giving me a Nether Shadow to go along with an Ichorid in the GY from my first dredge, and I tap both to cast Hogaak, and sac them all for a Spy DReturn

Game 2 win: I Powder away a FoV-less hand into one with FoV, but I see no LotV, and a turn 1 Trinisphere instead. I see a turn 2 Rabblemaster, but a Street Wraith'ed GGT gives me Narcomoeba and Shadow, and next turn a 2nd Shadow into a Hogaak, which triggers Amalgam

Sideboarding: -4 Therapy probably -2 Spy -2 DReturn, +4 FoV +3 Powder +1 Gigapede
LotV and other artifacts a possibility. Combo finish less reliable with the possibility of Trinisphere anyway

Round 3. 2-0 RUG Delver

Game 1 win: Quick concession after the first GGT dredge and a Phantasmagorian give me a Narcomoeba, two triggered Amalgams, a Shadow in the yard, and Bridge/Therapy

Game 2 win: With Hexdrinker and Tarmogoyf on the board, my two Ichorids in the GY are Surgical'ed. On their next turn, they land another goyf and a Delver. I recur two Shadows, get a Narcomoeba, trigger 2 Amalgams, take a Daze and get a Zombie with Therapy, then cast Hogaak. They Karakas the Hogaak and start swinging. My guys do some attacking and blocking and they level up Hexdrinker to get to unblockable attacks, but I win the race

Sideboarding: -4 DReturn -3 Spy -1 Flayer, +4 Faerie Macabre +3 FoV +1 Gigapede. Edit: I brought in all 4 FoV. Either brought in 3 Macabre or shaved a Therapy
Macabre for Surgicals on my recurring creatures

Round 4. 0-2 Elves

Game 1 loss: They play a turn 2 Ooze from hand, and even though Phantasmagorian and my first dredge give me goodies, they start exiling all of my recurring creatures

Game 2 loss: Another turn 2 Ooze from hand, and despite Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith, a similar story

Sideboarding: ~-4 Cabal Therapy -3 DReturn -3 Spy -1 Flayer, +4 FoV +3 Sickening Shoal +3 Serum Powder +1 Gigapede
Sucks to lose the speed of the combo finish, but Ooze or LotV are lights out, and given the Game 1 loss, didn't have any space to feel out their SB choices
Natural Oozes are tough to beat, but thankfully that sequence isn't going to happen a lot. Bigger threats than Ooze in terms of being common are Bog and fast combo, and I was fortunate enough to see a minimal amount of that

Round 5. 1-2 RUG Delver

Game 1 win: Nothing too crazy

Game 2 loss: They play Cage turn 1 and FoV is FoW'ed a few turns later

Game 3 loss: Opponent mulligans to 5. The replay of this one is messed up, but I remember getting going after an early Surgical, and then a Cage a number of turns in which halted my momentum
Presumably because of Storm, Reanimator, and Dredge, and I'm guessing W&6 freeing up a sideboard slot (but I'm not a RUG player to know), we have to expect a singleton Cage. It's still a favorable matchup though; it's probably gone from 90/10 to 70/30 or something. You're not gonna see a 1-of in both sideboard games every time, and with counterspell backup. Totally fair play though; I've had plenty of unlikely, fortuitous dredges in my time :smile: And later game Cages are always possible with their card selection

Sideboarding: -4 DReturn -3 Spy -1 Flayer, +4 Faerie Macabre +3 FoV +1 Gigapede. Edit: I brought in all 4 FoV. Either brought in 3 Macabre or shaved a Therapy

Round 6. 2-0 Esper creature deck

Game 1 win: I see Moms, Meddling Mage, and Strix, but not much happens and I combo out

Game 2 win: They play Mage and Strix, and Jotun Grunt as graveyard hate, but Narcomoebas, Ichorid, Tokens, Amalgam, and Hogaak overwhelm it

Sideboarding: I think -4 DReturn -3 Spy -1 Flayer, +4 FoV +3 Sickening Shoal +1 Gigapede
They had counter magic, not a terribly fast clock, and both RiP and CPriest were possible

Round 7. 2-0 Jund

Game 1 win: They have Liliana, then Bloodbraid Elf into Tarmogoyf, but I sac creatures to DReturn a Flayer, and their life total is low while I have a board presence + more creatures coming to trigger Flayer

Game 2 win: They put a LotV into play but it eats a FoV right away. Recurring creatures get the win

Sideboarding: -4 DReturn -3 Spy -1 Flayer, +4 FoV +3 Serum Powder +1 Gigapede. I know I brought in some number of Macabres because I've seen Surgical in Jund but I don't remember if they fully replaced Therapy or not

Round 8. 2-1 BUG Once Upon a Time Death's Shadow

Game 1 win: These games are always on a razor's edge, attacking into the opponent while growing their Death's Shadows. I generally attack into them making sure I have blockers for giant Shadows. In this game, I had them at 1 life, and they had two 12/12 Death's Shadows and an Angler. I attack with 4 creatures, and the Narcomoeba is returned to my hand with Brazen Borrower. That leaves me with 6 Zombies. I clear their hand of a Daze with a Hogaak tapping two of them, check for more with a Therapy, and then DReturn a Spy

Game 2 loss: I'm Thoughtseized, and then my first dredger is Macabre'ed. I get a dredge for two Narcomoebas in, but by then they have an 8/8 Death's Shadow, a Delver, and a Plague Engineer on Illusion

Game 3 win: They cast Once Upon a Time and then Delver on turn 1, and I discard GGT. Their Delver doesn't flip, they activate Macabre targeting GGT, and I Wraith in response. I dredge into Phantasmagorian and dump a bunch of stuff, and they conceded at some point after

Sideboarding: For game 2, I think I sided out the combo, and brought in something like 4 FoV, 1 Gigapede, and 3 Macabre, but I'm not positive. Therapies are nice for making Zombies to block big Death's Shadows, even if you're not clearing the way for spells
For game 3, I assumed Macabre was their GY hate, so I sided the combo back in and Macabre out, and I think because they kept a 7 card hand in game 2, I ruled out LotV and went back to the game 1 60, but I'm not 100% on that. I don't think I did anything weird like boarding in Powder to maximize my chances at Phantasmagorian and Wraith, considering their clock and not wanting to water things down

[AmokPL]

I clear their hand of a Daze with a Hogaak tapping two of them, check for more with a Therapy, and then DReturn a Spy

forgive me ignorance but how do you win after flipping your whole library with the help of Spy?

[Echelon]

A couple of Dread Returns, Flayer of the Hatebound and Golgari Grave-Troll

[easysantiago]

A couple of Dread Returns, Flayer of the Hatebound and Golgari Grave-Troll

The feels-good win.

[Sbrilla]

Hello, new user here.
I wanted to bring to attention to this article that I just read about GP Atlanta --> article (https://www.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/articles/the-legacy-metagame-and-win-rates-from-gp-atlanta/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=content&utm_content=karsten-atlanta-legacy-meta)

In short, interesting information here:

7 Manaless Dredge (0.7% of the meta)
Manaless Dredge won 57.1% of 56 matches (7th most succesful deck)
15 Dredge (1.5% of the meta)
Dredge won 54.1% of 109 matches (slightly lower than the manaless counterpart)
3 Mindbreak Trap in the SB and no Serum Powder in the 75

Among the comments, the pilot of the deck (John Tollison) confirms my initial assumptions: GP Atlanta turned out to be a great field for Manaless Dredge given the presence of numerous Wasteland-Delver-Counters based decks.
What do you think of these numbers?

Peace! :smile:

[WarpWorld]

Hello, new user here.
I wanted to bring to attention to this article that I just read about GP Atlanta --> article (https://www.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/articles/the-legacy-metagame-and-win-rates-from-gp-atlanta/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=content&utm_content=karsten-atlanta-legacy-meta)

In short, interesting information here:

7 Manaless Dredge (0.7% of the meta)
Manaless Dredge won 57.1% of 56 matches (7th most succesful deck)
15 Dredge (1.5% of the meta)
Dredge won 54.1% of 109 matches (slightly lower than the manaless counterpart)
3 Mindbreak Trap in the SB and no Serum Powder in the 75

Among the comments, the pilot of the deck (John Tollison) confirms my initial assumptions: GP Atlanta turned out to be a great field for Manaless Dredge given the presence of numerous Wasteland-Delver-Counters based decks.
What do you think of these numbers?

Peace! [emoji2]I think they are about right. We generally have a good delver matchup. I took my list to a 3-3 at the last Lal and the deck felt strong. Mulliganing aggressively for lotv proved costly for most of my opponents. My last round loss was due to variance but I was live for t16 up to that point

[Seymour_Asses]

I just finished building this deck and it's fun as hell!

I'm running Balustrade Spy/Flayer. I was wondering about the potential benefits of switching to a version using Creeping Chill and maybe Lotleth Giant. I can't find anything in the primer, since I think these cards were printed after it was last updated.

Thanks in advance and Hail the Source!

[Final Fortune]

The 2/2 split on Spy/Giant is just better, 4 black cards instead of 3 or 2 and more resilent to Crypt effects.

[Echelon]

3/1 is fine, and one black creature more or less for Ichorid hardly matters. Giant is better in a vacuum, Flayer is more robust

[Final Fortune]

3/1 is fine, and one black creature more or less for Ichorid hardly matters. Giant is better in a vacuum, Flayer is more robust

It isn't a big deal either way, but I don't see a reason to play a red creature in a deck with Hogaak at all.

[Echelon]

And I don't mind running one in a deck with Hogaak.

[Final Fortune]

And I don't mind running one in a deck with Hogaak.

lol, the logics right there.

[Echelon]

lol, the logics right there.

That goes both ways bud :wink:

[Seymour_Asses]

I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?

[Echelon]

Good if you can fit them in. Flip library, drain 12 is pretty nifty.

[Final Fortune]

I like the 3/1 Giant split. Any opinions on Creeping Chill?

Generally speaking they are bad, anything that doesn't feed Ichorid and Hogaak or activate Nether Shadow needs a really good reason to be in the deck. If you flip off Spy then they are win more, if it costs you an Ichorid/Hogaak/Shadow activation you break even or lose out on damage and it costs you Lotleth pings and Troll counters later on anyway.

The deck is built on extreme consistency, most of the people who advocate stuff like Flayer and Chill don't play through Crypt effects and squeek out wins fwiw.

[Echelon]

You do you boo

[Seymour_Asses]

Generally speaking they are bad, anything that doesn't feed Ichorid and Hogaak or activate Nether Shadow needs a really good reason to be in the deck. If you flip off Spy then they are win more, if it costs you an Ichorid/Hogaak/Shadow activation you break even or lose out on damage and it costs you Lotleth pings and Troll counters later on anyway.

The deck is built on extreme consistency, most of the people who advocate stuff like Flayer and Chill don't play through Crypt effects and squeek out wins fwiw.
Yeah I was thinking about how it doesn't help me pump out recurring creatures which feeds Bridge etc. I think I'm gonna go with Lotleth Giant but Chill doesn't seem worth it.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah I was thinking about how it doesn't help me pump out recurring creatures which feeds Bridge etc. I think I'm gonna go with Lotleth Giant but Chill doesn't seem worth it.

The most important thing is do not become one of those people who only play the deck in auto-pilot mode and only get wins whenever they're uncontested in game 1, a lot of the skill of the deck comes specifically from being able to play through the soft hate like Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog etc.

[Seymour_Asses]

The most important thing is do not become one of those people who only play the deck in auto-pilot mode and only get wins whenever they're uncontested in game 1, a lot of the skill of the deck comes specifically from being able to play through the soft hate like Surgical Extraction and Bojuka Bog etc.
Thanks for the advice. I definitely have a lot to learn in terms of playing around hate and grinding out games when I can't combo.

[Tes Jesus]

What's the opinion on Force of Despair as opposed to Contagion?

It seems like Force of Despair is better against fast combo like Reanimator or decks that flood the board like Storm and Belcher, but I can't see any downside against fair decks like D&T or Mentor based strategies like Miracles or Stoneblade.

[Final Fortune]

What's the opinion on Force of Despair as opposed to Contagion?

It seems like Force of Despair is better against fast combo like Reanimator or decks that flood the board like Storm and Belcher, but I can't see any downside against fair decks like D&T or Mentor based strategies like Miracles or Stoneblade.

It's garbage, Sickening Shoal has most of the same benefits and you can top deck it to remove a hate bear that is already on the board.

[Whoshim]

Containment Priest dodges Force of Despair, so that is something to consider.

[ronco]

Another option for winning after deck flipping, and can be dread returned:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Thassas-Oracle-Theros-Beyond-Death-Spoiler-216x302.png?x96163

Also gets around opponents with hex proof and all that. Not black for ichorid, but is blue for force, obviously.

Text in case image doesn't link:
Thassa's oracle - UU. Creature - Merefolk wizard 1/3
When ~ ETB, look at the top X cards of your library, put one on top and the rest on the bottom, where X is your devotion to blue. If X is greater OR EQUAL than the number of cards in your library, you win the game.

[ahg113]

I've been out of the game for more than a minute, Wrenn & Six was a thing, and not a thing since I last played.

What's a general sense of the game? Planning on playing in a tourney in the Northeast soon, debating between this and a storm variant. What is out there to expect, what does Oko do that I may or may not care about or another flavor of the day? What is the typical gy hate being played?

Thx.

Expected list:
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Gigapede
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

4 Faerie Macabre
1 Gigapede
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
3 Contagion

[ESG]

I've been out of the game for more than a minute, Wrenn & Six was a thing, and not a thing since I last played.

What's a general sense of the game? Planning on playing in a tourney in the Northeast soon, debating between this and a storm variant. What is out there to expect, what does Oko do that I may or may not care about or another flavor of the day? What is the typical gy hate being played?

Leyline of the Void is much more common now due to Hogaak and BR Reanimator, and decks that don't normally play Leyline, such as BUG Control/Midrange or Dark Maverick, sometimes have it alongside other hate. Personally, I would play the Storm variant over Manaless because I don't like the beat-the-hate guessing game and because protected Leylines are GG. UW decks are running some configuration of Containment Priest (mainly to hit Sneak and Show) and either Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction or both. Oko is a nonfactor vs. Manaless, but its impact on the metagame as a whole has led to more people playing Hogaak, and that has led to more graveyard hate.

[Scott]

Some people in MTGO Leagues really don't like niceties from Manaless opponents :laugh:

https://i.imgur.com/t9B26Bn.png

[ESG]

Some people in MTGO Leagues really don't like niceties from Manaless opponents :laugh:

https://i.imgur.com/t9B26Bn.png

Wow. What was your opponent playing? Personally, I've enjoyed almost all the games I've ever played against Manaless Dredge with a wide variety of decks. It's a very fun matchup. The games only tend to be uninteresting if I have Leyline of the Void.

[Scott]

Wow. What was your opponent playing? Personally, I've enjoyed almost all the games I've ever played against Manaless Dredge with a wide variety of decks. It's a very fun matchup. The games only tend to be uninteresting if I have Leyline of the Void.

Astrolabe Miracles.

Same. I almost always enjoy playing Manaless, against Manaless, and with and against weird decks in general.

He's a former Eternal Weekend champion too. Grumpy grinders/spikes gonna grump ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mr. Safety]

Considering the misery most of us experience when playing against the slow grind of Miracles I feel this is poetic justice. I'm of the same mindset: I love fringe decks and anything home-brewed, to the point I have more fun losing to a deck like that than winning against a hum-drum tier deck.

Opponent: *adjusting monacle*
"I do believe I have the best control deck of the format, why are you dueling me with this peasant manaless dredge nonsense?"

Player: "Because it steamrolls your ultra-meta-gamed control list."

[idc1993]

Hello there, long time enthusiast of the deck. Registered only to share the list I ran to success at my local weekly event and do a brief round recap.
First of all, the idea behind my list is to try the best of both worlds and merge the blue and green sideboards into one.
The point of my attempt is to try and fix the blue sideboard's innability to answer leyline with the green's obligation to start over from square one after clearing RIP or some other yard resetting piece of hate. Plus, I feel blue also has better chances at fighting opposing combo decks.
So without further ado, my 75:

Dredgers
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Recurring Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Utility
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
1 Progenitus

Combo Package
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Sideboard
3 Serum Powder
4 Force of Negation
4 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Will

Card Choices:
-Balustrade Spy: "Spy in a blue sided list? I-Is he maaad?!?!?!". I know, I know. The thing is that I love having our little "I win" button around and I'm too paranoid of not finding Flayer when trying the combo finish. Plus, I did manage to fit 17 blue cards in the 75 while keeping him in.
-Progenitus: Serves the dual purpose of supporting all Forces and also allowing for some extra turns of leeway after Spy'ing (also turning opposing SnTs and Exhumes into free wins doesn't hurt).
-Flayer: Better than Lotleth giant before Spy. After Spy the extra Dread Return needed for him to do Lotleth's job should never be relevant (even if we use the last DR on him) since Hogaak/Amalgams can finish the job in the same turn. Plus, any opposing removals can be Therapy'd away before commiting him to the board, so that too is less of an issue than having the slot be usefull more often.
-Once Upon a Time: Currently I don't own a playset and, since they're 30+ bucks in Brazil, I want to be sure they won't be banned in Modern and plummet in price BEFORE I spend cash on them (Hogaak playset says hi). But they'd be there replacing 1 Shell, 2 Hogaaks and a 4th slot I haven't decided yet (probably Progenitus, but I rather not if I can).

Quick tourney recap:
17 players, 4 rounds.

Round 1: Fast Depths 0-2
G1. Opponent wins the dice roll and takes the play. I mull a Dredgerless hand and find Troll and Wraith. T1 he plays Urborg and accels into a land tutor, I draw pass. T2 he drops Thespian and passes, I draw and discard Troll. T3 he drops Depths and a Petal and passes, I Wraith on his 2nd mainphase finding Narco, Amalgam, Spy, Return, Ichorid and Phantasmagorian (sweet). He makes Marit Lage and sacs Petal to Crop Rotation Urborg into maindeck Bojuka (O_O).
G2. Figuring my best shot is to combo him protected from Crop I side out Phantasmagorians ,Therapies and 3 Hoggaks for the blue Forces and Powder (Leyline'd be a loss even if I FoV'd it). I Serum a hand with no Forces into one with FoN, Amalgam and a Dredger but I'm ultimately too slow to do anything even after ignoring a possible Rotation to stop one of his tutors from getting his combo.
0-1

Round 2: Esper Stoneblade 2-1
G1. No relevant play from opponent. Ichorids, Shadows and Amalgams drive it home through a Jitte'd Stoneforge.
G2. Fearing RIP and Cage I side out the whole combo and Phantasmagorians for the full set of Forces. T1 he puts me on the play, drops a land and ponders. T2 I discard Troll and pass, he Surgicals and protects it from FoW with Spell Pierce. I'm holding 2 more Trolls in hand as my only dredgers... An eternity of draw go later I find no more Forces and restart the engine with Imp but he Surgicals again with Snapcaster and gets a clock going with it and TNN (i think).
G3. On the play again I keep a hand with FoN, Amalgam and Thug while he goes down to 5. T1 He land Ponders. T2 I discard Thug, he tries to Cage unprotected, which I counter. T3 Thug finds Ichorid and Imp, he continues to dig. After 2 or so turns I dredge 3 Therapies while having 2 Ichorids, with the 1st I name RIP only to find Containment Priest, which he promptly discards before I even announce the 2nd and then concedes as I have'im at 9 life.
1-1

Round 3: Sneak and Show 2-0
G1. Being put on the draw (sweet lost dice rolls) I keep a slow hand with Thug. Not going fast either we go until he drops Sneak Attack and cantrips on the following turn. I bring 2 Shadows and Ichorid and dredge Narco with an Amalgam while having another already in grave. After attacking I DR a 9/9 Troll making 3 zombies. He then gets shocked after I announce that after Troll both Amalgams, not only the 1st anymore, get into play putting me at a total of 7 creatures and out of Grisel and Emmy's reach thanks to Narco. He proceeds to Emmy and leave me with 4 zombies, enough to finish him with my hasty dudes.
G2. Deciding to keep the combo in I side out Phantasmagorians and Hogaaks for the blue Forces. Being put on the draw again he goes down to 6 and I decide to keep a hand with a naked FoN, Troll, Imp and Spy. He proceeds to play Tormod's Crypt, Island and pass. I proceed to draw a blue card and discard Imp with the idea of keeping Troll for after Tormod's eventual break. T2 he Ancient Tombs into a naked SnT, which I counter (sadly looking at Spy) since Tormod's still up, and proceeds to break Tormod onto my lone Imp. I draw go and pray to the Dredge gods for him to have another SnT...which he does. T3 he answers my prayers by SnT'ing Grisel while I show him Spy. After hearing about Progenitus and my Narcos who'd bring their Prized friends along he draws 7 (almost giving me an anxiety attack with the prospect of another Tormod) and finds a Surgical, but it is ultimately useless against so many targets.
2-1

Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
G1. Being put on the draw ('dem great 'lost' dicerolls again) I have a slow start that goes on and on until I'm about to be downed by two lords and a TNN wearing a Jitte (used to keep my board empty) while without Bridges, when I finally find 2 and make 2 zombies (Jitte at 1 counter) with a Therapy, that showed me a Vial. The tokens give me another turn by blocking the lords and allowing me to combo finish the following turn.
G2. Again keeping the combo I side out Phantasmagorians, Hogaaks and 3 Therapies for the blue Forces and the 3 Powders. Being put on the draw again I decide to keep a Force'less hand with a Thug and 2 Wraiths (rationalizing that in this BR Reanimator infested times Surgical/Faerie Macabre is loads more likely than Cage) and my opponent goes down to 5. I play it safe for 2 turns by keeping both Wraiths to answer an eventual targeted hate until I find an Imp and decide to commit one of them. It goes through no problem and I figure that's too much even if he has it, so I commit the 2nd one and combo him on my turn.
3-1

There was no 4-0 so that puts me among the top results of the day.
I feel that, without OUAT 15 dredgers is too light. Too many opening hands without a dredger (not only during the event).
Overall the deck once again shows it CAN and WILL perform among tried and tested meta decks, BUT it feels quite unstable in the regard that, while the deck can certainly fight hate, I feel it depends on said hate being unaccompanied by further pressure/interaction. Also it bugs me to no end to have won through such crude mistakes such as the Sneak and Show match. Don't get me wrong, I love free wins as much as the next guy but it blurs the line between the merits of the deck and the demerits of the opposition. I truly and wholly hope there'll be a day when this deck has enough tools to make it less "Do or Die" and have a more stable performance.

P.S.-This experience made me sure of one thing.
ONCE UPON A TIME IS A MUST FOR BOTH CONSISTENCY AND SPEED!!!

[Echelon]

@idc1993: Congrats on the result! I run the exact same 60!

[idc1993]

What are people's opinions on dredgerless hands with Once Upon a Time?
The card kind of works like a mulligan, but if it doesn't hit it whithin the 5 cards or the following one, then it's a BIG screw.
Also, what about hands that have a dredger but not Troll? Discard and OUAT after to look for Wraith or do it before to expand the chances of a bigger dredger at the cost of showing the opponent what we're playing?

[Whoshim]

What are people's opinions on dredgerless hands with Once Upon a Time?
The card kind of works like a mulligan, but if it doesn't hit it whithin the 5 cards or the following one, then it's a BIG screw.
Also, what about hands that have a dredger but not Troll? Discard and OUAT after to look for Wraith or do it before to expand the chances of a bigger dredger at the cost of showing the opponent what we're playing?

The first game action we take will show what we are on. We will, hopefully, move to discard, then discard a dredger. If we have OUAT, I think we can use it before we discard. The problem is that, if it is countered, we have been set back a turn from discarding. If it is not countered, we will be replacing it in our hand, so we will still be able to discard. However, any way you slice it, we are not really giving up information about what we are on, because nobody else moves to discard like we do. Casting OUAT just before moving to discard does not really tell them anything they wouldn't know. There is no real window of secrecy there.

[idc1993]

The first game action we take will show what we are on. We will, hopefully, move to discard, then discard a dredger. If we have OUAT, I think we can use it before we discard. The problem is that, if it is countered, we have been set back a turn from discarding. If it is not countered, we will be replacing it in our hand, so we will still be able to discard. However, any way you slice it, we are not really giving up information about what we are on, because nobody else moves to discard like we do. Casting OUAT just before moving to discard does not really tell them anything they wouldn't know. There is no real window of secrecy there.

The way I see it, we can either play OUAT during their upkeep to narrow their ability to counter down to Force, but have them spend their turn already knowing what we're playing (since we reveal the card), or we can let them go on with their turn still oblivious and cast it during ours, but have a higher chance of getting it countered by Daze/Pierce.
Also, even if unaware of our deck, an opponent seeing us cast OUAT during our turn before making a land drop might be tempted to counter it by reasoning that we probably kept a good landless hand and are attempting to fix it by finding a land.
All in all, I think it's safer to cast it during their 1st upkeep, especially since it reduces interaction down to Force and discard (and anyone with targeted discard should be starting the game by casting it anyway). Plus, no one should Force OUAT unless they already know what we're on.
If they do know, either by having us put them on them play or by it being game 2/3, it might be worth it to discard 1st.

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't Balustrade Spy + Thassa's Oracle pretty good for this deck? I'm also curious if Bazaar Trademage could be a DR target that supercharges dredging and also feeds the Force of Will/Negation sideboard plan. It makes me think Sphinx of Foresight could be another option instead of Once Upon a Time to smooth out early turns, and again feed the Force plan.

Just some thoughts I had while brewing a terrible Vengevine deck.

[Echelon]

Why DR Bazaar Trademage when you have access to Balustrade Spy, Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider/Drake? Those basically say "flip my library" rather than "Time Walk twice".

Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.

[Mr. Safety]

Why DR Bazaar Trademage when you have access to Balustrade Spy, Griselbrand or Whirlpool Rider/Drake? Those basically say "flip my library" rather than "Time Walk twice".

Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.

Without any experience with manaless, I didn't realize the Whirlpool creatures do the same but better. I was just thinking that DR > Balustrade Spy might not happen often enough to make it reliable as a combo finish. My thought was that if you have a DR but no Spy in the graveyard you would need to turbo-charge your dredging. Currently Street Wraith does that to get an extra dredge for your turn, but the draw 2 would allow you to get 2 extra dredges out of it. *shrug* It was just an idea, apparently not nearly as good as other options.

[idc1993]

Oracle is a fine wincon. I play one together w/ Flayer at the moment. Flayer's still the more robust option.

I suppose you run Oracle alongside Flayer to get around any possibility of having your combo interfered with by the likes of Leyline of Sanctity or Glacial Chasm.

If that's the case, why not just run Ashen Rider in that slot?
It gets through any eventual speed bumps messing with your combo and, like Flayer, is a superior DR target for beatdown if you haven't got a Spy in your yard.

Don't get me wrong, I love how Oracle gets there plain and simple without and around any shenanigans, but it is utterly useless (aside from being Force fodder) pre-Spy.

The extra work you need to put into Rider/Flayer is nigh irrelevant post-Spy and they still pull double duty by also being relevant before it.

[Echelon]

I just prefer "I win this turn" (Flayer) over "I probably win in a few turns" (Ashen Rider). I think the extra hoops you have to jump through are worth it.

@Mr. Safety You dredge into Spy often enough for it not to matter. Other than that you still have your beats and Hogaaks.

[idc1993]

I just prefer "I win this turn" (Flayer) over "I probably win in a few turns" (Ashen Rider). I think the extra hoops you have to jump through are worth it.

But what I'm saying is that you still "win this turn" after Spy by DR'ing Ashen Rider to remove whatever's stopping Flayer and THEN DR'ing Flayer+Troll.

I'm advocating running Flayer + Rider instead of Flayer + Oracle since the benefit of Rider in Oracle's slot is that it's also a great DR target before Spy whereas Oracle is dead in that scenario.

[Echelon]

I get your point but don't necessarily agree with it

[idc1993]

I get your point but don't necessarily agree with it

Nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you misunderstood what I meant and I just wanted to clarity.

[Echelon]

Nothing wrong with that. It just seemed like you misunderstood what I meant and I just wanted to clarity.

And you were right about that. You clarified it well :smile:

[Ronald Deuce]

Without any experience with manaless, I didn't realize the Whirlpool creatures do the same but better. I was just thinking that DR > Balustrade Spy might not happen often enough to make it reliable as a combo finish. My thought was that if you have a DR but no Spy in the graveyard you would need to turbo-charge your dredging. Currently Street Wraith does that to get an extra dredge for your turn, but the draw 2 would allow you to get 2 extra dredges out of it. *shrug* It was just an idea, apparently not nearly as good as other options.

I've run Whirlpool Rider for a while because it pitches to Force. I'd been considering Prime Speaker Zegana because it pitches to Force AND Force, but the downside is probably prohibitive.

[zzap]

Silvermote Ghoul + Creeping Chill > Prized Amalgam ?

edit: Silversmote

[Whoshim]

Silvermote Ghoul + Creeping Chill > Prized Amalgam ?

edit: Silversmote

I don't think it is worth it, but I suppose it is worth testing.

They both enter the battlefield tapped.
PA is a 3/3. SG is a 3/1.
There is way to take advantage of SG's activated ability in Manaless (unless we run LED).
If SG dies, we have to hit another Creeping Chill to get it out again.
If PA dies, we can likely get it again because we recur Ichorids and Nether Shadows pretty regularly, as well as triggering with Narcomoebas. We also trigger PA with Dread Return, so DR on Hateflayer allows us to hit for 4, plus whatever Amalgams are in our graveyard.

So, I think a 3/3 that enters from a number of different plays is better than a 3/1 that enters from only one type of play.

However, if LED is brought into the mix to generate mana, then it could get interested to get that extra draw plus the death trigger, though I think that plan is not really worth it. Manaless is similar to Burn in the sense that the idea is to run a lot of redundant effects to achieve consistency rather than looking to hit a particular combo of cards.

[zzap]

I don't think it is worth it, but I suppose it is worth testing.

They both enter the battlefield tapped.
PA is a 3/3. SG is a 3/1.
There is way to take advantage of SG's activated ability in Manaless (unless we run LED).
If SG dies, we have to hit another Creeping Chill to get it out again.
If PA dies, we can likely get it again because we recur Ichorids and Nether Shadows pretty regularly, as well as triggering with Narcomoebas. We also trigger PA with Dread Return, so DR on Hateflayer allows us to hit for 4, plus whatever Amalgams are in our graveyard.

So, I think a 3/3 that enters from a number of different plays is better than a 3/1 that enters from only one type of play.

However, if LED is brought into the mix to generate mana, then it could get interested to get that extra draw plus the death trigger, though I think that plan is not really worth it. Manaless is similar to Burn in the sense that the idea is to run a lot of redundant effects to achieve consistency rather than looking to hit a particular combo of cards.

The problem with PA is that it's not really a recurring creature like Ichorid, at least in the same way. PA just comes in because another creature did, while SG can come in on its own with a few CC activations. I never liked PA because of its inability to come in without a buddy. Opponents can just sit on Narcs, Ichorids, Nethers and ripping them with Snapped Surgicals, while just completely ignoring PA. At least with CC and SG, together they provide another body that can draw Surgical attention, especially with a Hagaak looming. Definitely worth testing.

[Whoshim]

That is a fair point. So, a list like this:

2 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Silversmote Ghoul

3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

One problem though is that the green card count is down to 8 (2 Shell, 4 Troll, 2 Hogaak). It is a little tricky jamming both Chill and the new Ghoul into the list while keeping the green count high enough for Force of Vigor out of the sideboard. I am not sure what to cut from here to help with that.

[zzap]

I love running 4 Hogaak, as they have built in DRs. It's more economical and can pitch to FoV. Since its printing, I've shaved the DR combo down to 2 DR and 2 Gris/Spy with Flayer/Lotleth in the sideboard.

[Final Fortune]

That is a fair point. So, a list like this:

2 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Silversmote Ghoul

3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

One problem though is that the green card count is down to 8 (2 Shell, 4 Troll, 2 Hogaak). It is a little tricky jamming both Chill and the new Ghoul into the list while keeping the green count high enough for Force of Vigor out of the sideboard. I am not sure what to cut from here to help with that.

If Bloodghast wasn't good enough for Manaless, then I doubt Silversmote Ghoul is. While Creeping Chill is an improvement on Dakmor Salavage, the problem is that the deck can hardly afford to cut 8 cards for the whole package.

[Whoshim]

It is hard to cut cards to make the package fit, but I think that Chill+Ghoul is a bit better than the Bloodghast plan, mostly because we do not need to waste our dredge on the land.

I have been thinking about moving the deck to more of a beatdown plan. I also tried to reduce the amount of cards that need to be in hand to use (so there are only Force of Vigor and Once Upon a Time in the sideboard).

I did a little testing this morning. Here is the list I am testing with:

4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam

2 Whirlpool Drake
4 Dread Return

4 Phantasmagorian

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Progenitus
4 Leyline of the Void

The green count in the main deck is 10. There are no Street Wraiths. There are two Whirlpool Drakes for speed with Dread Return, but there is no "I win" combo. Having the Silversmote Ghouls is the deck is pretty nice. I was able to dredge Amalgam + Ghoul + Chill in one go. The Ghoul entered at the end of my turn, and the Amalgam at the end of my opponent's turn.

I like having an "I win" combo in the deck, so I am considering cutting down on the Phantasmagorians and/or Hogaaks (maybe -2 Hogaak, and switch out the Whirlpool Drakes so that there can be 3 Balustrade Spy and 1 Thassa's Oracle). This would drop the main deck green count to 8, but there are options in the sideboard to get is to 16+. (Also, the sideboard is not set, just an idea to get started.)

[Echelon]

I'd shave like a dredger or a DR in order to run a Thassa's Oracle/Flayer of the Hatebound. Adding that "I win"-button costs you literally just 1 slot, which simply must be worth it. And by doing so you can revert back to Balustrade Spies.

The thing I look for is a way to eliminate cards that possibly do nothing in certain scenario's. In that regard, however good Street Wraith is, the effect you run it for only works if you have it in your opening hand. While I'm not sure the new guy is the way to go I do think that if you want to incorporate the new package cutting SW would be the way to do it.

I'd suggest the following 60:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Silversmote Ghoul
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (b/c synergy w/ the crazy number of recurring creatures you run)

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Creeping Chill

Now I'm not sure that cutting SW is the way to go (we all know how powerful it is to SW in response to Surgical/Macabre on your dredger), but this is how'd I'd go about testing it.

[Whoshim]

That list looks pretty good. You summed up my ideas also. I was sitting at the table looking at the cards trying to figure out which to cut, and SW ended up on the chopping block. Then it was a matter of determining what to do about the combo package.

I think Flayer is a pretty good choice, especially with Chill in the list. I think Flayer is also better than the M21 dragon, though people on Reddit were thinking otherwise. What do you think about the new dragon?

[Final Fortune]

I'd shave like a dredger or a DR in order to run a Thassa's Oracle/Flayer of the Hatebound. Adding that "I win"-button costs you literally just 1 slot, which simply must be worth it. And by doing so you can revert back to Balustrade Spies.

The thing I look for is a way to eliminate cards that possibly do nothing in certain scenario's. In that regard, however good Street Wraith is, the effect you run it for only works if you have it in your opening hand. While I'm not sure the new guy is the way to go I do think that if you want to incorporate the new package cutting SW would be the way to do it.

I'd suggest the following 60:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Silversmote Ghoul
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

3 Dread Return
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (b/c synergy w/ the crazy number of recurring creatures you run)

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Creeping Chill

Now I'm not sure that cutting SW is the way to go (we all know how powerful it is to SW in response to Surgical/Macabre on your dredger), but this is how'd I'd go about testing it.

Removing Street Wraith is cheeky, but you'd probably increase your average speed and redundancy with Creeping Chill and Silversmote Ghoul that way. Cutting Shambling Shell is always a red flag for me, considering how much the utility of Phantasmagorian decreases post board I would only play 3 of it over 3 Shambling Shell. The magic number for Force of Vigor is 15, the MD should be able to support that number over SBing Once Upon a Time (I'd rather SB Street Wraith anyway).

[Whoshim]

Removing Street Wraith is cheeky, but you'd probably increase your average speed and redundancy with Creeping Chill and Silversmote Ghoul that way. Cutting Shambling Shell is always a red flag for me, considering how much the utility of Phantasmagorian decreases post board I would only play 3 of it over 3 Shambling Shell. The magic number for Force of Vigor is 15, the MD should be able to support that number over SBing Once Upon a Time (I'd rather SB Street Wraith anyway).

I am not sure I agree about Phantasmagorian, but I think that it may just be a personal bias - I love that card. 3 copies may well be enough. I will run this list the next time I test (likely tonight).

4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Balustrade Spy
3 Dread Return

3 Phantasmagorian

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus
4 Serum Powder

Instead of Street Wraith in the sideboard, Faerie can be used to protect ourselves vs. Surgical or target the opponent's cards. It is not as effective as Street Wraith or Leyline of the Void, but it serves two purposes.

I am not sure about the Serum Powders. There are a lot of fun cards that could go in that slot, like Chancellor of the Annex, Vengeful Pharaoh, Leyline of Sanctity, Mindbreak Trap, etc. Those slots could easily change depending on the meta, but the previous 11 slots do work against a lot of the normal decks.

[Echelon]

Swapping out a Phantasmagorian for an extra Shambling Shell is a change I can get behind. Good idea!

Speaking of Terror of the Peaks...

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/core-set-2021/38509-terror-of-the-peaks

It does trigger on zombie tokens, and Hogaak... It doesn't do damage on its own though, where Flayer can be a solid 9 damage w/ a Cabal Therapy.

Flayer is a little bit harder to kill though. But w/ TotP you can just cast Hogaak a few times if you're all out of Dread Returns. I'm not sure yet

[Ronald Deuce]

Speaking of Terror of the Peaks...

It does trigger on zombie tokens, and Hogaak... It doesn't do damage on its own though, where Flayer can be a solid 9 damage w/ a Cabal Therapy.

Flayer is a little bit harder to kill though. But w/ TotP you can just cast Hogaak a few times if you're all out of Dread Returns.

Wouldn't you still be able to loop Hogaaks with a Flayer on the battlefield? I guess one advantage to the dragon is you can cast those Hogaaks out of your hand—it doesn't only trigger when things come back from the dead. I think having greater resilience and built-in damage makes Flayer stronger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something I'm missing. Last time I played the deck I was running Lotleth Giant, anyway, so maybe I'm just behind the times.

I've been a bit out of the loop lately. Is anyone still running a blue suite in the sideboard? I feel like I keep trying to reinvent the wheel, but it'd be pretty dreamy to run two quads of Forces someday.

[notkevin]

Wouldn't you still be able to loop Hogaaks with a Flayer on the battlefield? I guess one advantage to the dragon is you can cast those Hogaaks out of your hand—it doesn't only trigger when things come back from the dead. I think having greater resilience and built-in damage makes Flayer stronger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something I'm missing. Last time I played the deck I was running Lotleth Giant, anyway, so maybe I'm just behind the times.

I've been a bit out of the loop lately. Is anyone still running a blue suite in the sideboard? I feel like I keep trying to reinvent the wheel, but it'd be pretty dreamy to run two quads of Forces someday.

Re: looping Hogaaks - you can, but it doesn't do damage because Hogaak enters off the stack when cast, not the graveyard.

[Echelon]

Basically, w/ TotP you don't need any more DRs to burn down your opponent that turn where you would w/ Flayer. Although that could be up for debate with the addition of 4 Creeping Chill and 8 3 power creatures that ETB on your EoT after you DR Balustrade Spy. Plus you can CT Flayer to make 21 damage w/ a full set of Chills. Or 18 w/ 3 Chills if your opponent like fetched twice or fetched & FoW'd.

[Final Fortune]

Basically, w/ TotP you don't need any more DRs to burn down your opponent that turn where you would w/ Flayer. Although that could be up for debate with the addition of 4 Creeping Chill and 8 3 power creatures that ETB on your EoT after you DR Balustrade Spy. Plus you can CT Flayer to make 21 damage w/ a full set of Chills. Or 18 w/ 3 Chills if your opponent like fetched twice or fetched & FoW'd.

The combo kill creature seems like a small part of the deck to bother micro managing, I've tested most of them and still think just being black for Hogaak/Ichorid is probably more important than how good the actual kill condition is. I might be more inclined towards one of the others now that I'm not running 2 Lotleth Giant for redundancy, but energy is probably better spent elsewhere than fiddling with a one of.

[Echelon]

Agreed

[Ronald Deuce]

Re: looping Hogaaks - you can, but it doesn't do damage because Hogaak enters off the stack when cast, not the graveyard.

Good catch! Thank you! Like I said, it's been a while since I've taken the deck for a spin.

[Final Fortune]

whoops, my bad.

[Final Fortune]

With the Creeping Chill and Silversmote package, does anyone else find themselves SBing out Narcomoebas at all? I generally cut the Dread Return targets before anything else, but whenever I'm bringing in 8 cards or so Narcomoeba seems to be the most redundant slot now. I started off cutting the whole Creeping Chill and Silversmote package, but the problem I found was that I never had 11 cards to bring in for one match up so the DR targets just sat there as low value cards. Which brings me to the next point, maybe we should be running Griselbrand and Iona??? over the combo kill, just so that cutting one or two of the DR creatures doesn't reduce the value of the others so much? Griselbrand draws such an absurd number of cards that the Cabal Therapies, Creeping Chills and board of creatures can close out the game by themselves. Iona is probably win more, but maybe Ashen Rider or Terastadon to increase the green count?

[Whoshim]

Griselbrand draws such an absurd number of cards that the Cabal Therapies, Creeping Chills and board of creatures can close out the game by themselves. Iona is probably win more, but maybe Ashen Rider or Terastadon to increase the green count?

I started looking through scryfall for options. I don't know though. I think the near-automatic win from the combo is tough to move away from. Your post did inspire an idea though (also moving away from the combo):

4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

3 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Bloodghast
3 Dakmor Salvage

3 Phantasmagorian

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus
4 Serum Powder

Put the Silversmote and Bloodghast packages in, dropping Dread Return, its targets, and 1 Narcomoeba. I haven't tested with this list yet.

Concerning the options I found on scryfall so far (some good, some bad, just to keep some options in mind and maybe spark some further ideas):

Griselbrand

This can draw cards, gain life (Silversmote Ghoul), and beat down. Pitches to Unmask.

Iona

This can shut down a large number of decks.

Ashen Rider

This pitches to Unmask. It is strong against Show and Tell.

Terastadon

Pitches to Force of Vigor. Good for clearing problematic permanents.

Hoverguard Sweepers

Pitches to Force of Will. Good against creatures. Not a particularly good choice though.

Tishana, Voice of Thunder
Prime Speaker Zegana

Both of those are dependent on the number of creatures we control when they enter. They allow us to draw, and they pitch to both Forces.

Craterhoof Behemoth

This pitches to Force of Vigor. However, it is also pretty dependent on us having a fair number of creatures on the battlefield.

End-Raze Forerunners

Similar to Craterhoof.

Flame-Kin Zealot

This is similar to Craterhoof/End-Raze. We need fewer creatures for it to make an impact, but it does not pitch. Flayer is almost certainly better due to the existence of things like Ensnaring Bridge.

Hellkite Overlord

8 flying, hasty, trample damage is pretty strong, and this pitches to Force of Vigor and Unmask.

Empyrial Archangel

This is weaker than Iona, but she pitches to both Forces.

Sphinx Sovereign

This pitches to Force of Will and Unmask. It has some extra utility with Silversmote Ghoul, but it is really too slow compared to other options.

Celestial Force

This is not really helpful, but it does have some interaction with Silversmote, so I am including it here.

Torgaar, Famine Incarnate

Pitches to Unmask. Something to keep in mind against life gaining decks, should any become popular due to the new cards (the 1 mana white one that makes angels and Vito). It can also help against something like Burn, and could trigger Silversmote Ghoul if we are at 7 or lower.

Vengeful Pharaoh

This doesn't need DR. It pitches to Unmask. It helps against creatures.

Additionally, Street Wraith could go back in in some number. Once Upon a Time could also be considered.

I will browse Scryfall more later.

[Echelon]

If you're no longer interested in resolving DR, why still bother with Cabal Therapy..? That frees up some extra slot for I-dunno-what. Maybe dump Street Wraith back in? Or round all 3's back up to 4.

Also, this is crazy and I love it :laugh:

[Whoshim]

If you're no longer interested in resolving DR, why still bother with Cabal Therapy..? That frees up some extra slot for I-dunno-what. Maybe dump Street Wraith back in? Or round all 3's back up to 4.

Also, this is crazy and I love it :laugh:

Interesting idea. Also, if we remove Therapy, then Narcomoeba becomes pretty bad. I wonder if those slots could be better used. We already have Nether Shadow, Ichorid, Silversmote Ghoul, and Bloodghast to trigger Prized Amalgam, which is mostly what Narcomoeba does for us if DR and CT are out.

EDIT:

I present the following for consideration:

Utility:
Gigapede

Lifegain:
Firemane Angel
Soul Spike
Spinning Darkness
Needlebite Trap

Recurring Creatures:
Scourge of Nel Toth
Ashen Ghoul
Scrapheap Scrounger
Nim Devourer
Nether Traitor
Despoiler of Souls

From Hand:
Delraich
Summoning Trap
Contagion
Unmask
Force of Despair
Mindbreak Trap

Leylines:
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Combustion
Leyline of the Meek

Another list:

4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam

2 Ashen Ghoul
4 Bloodghast
4 Dakmor Salvage

3 Phantasmagorian

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ashen Rider
4 Serum Powder

[Echelon]

Narcomoeba isn't terrible though. Having a flyer can be crucial when playing vs. anything that can make an EoT Marit Lage :wink:

I wish we could cut the Shambling Shells, but there aren't many other runnable cards that can be pitched to FoV. I mean, as a dredger we don't really need it anymore when you run the Bloodghast package. I enjoy that we're making a whole new take on Horde Mode :laugh:. I imagine we could also take your previous list and just swap out the CTs for a set of Ashen Ghoul. That'd leave us with...
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

3 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Silversmote Ghoul
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Bloodghast
3 Dakmor Salvage

3 Phantasmagorian

4 Bridge from Below
4 Creeping Chill

Although you might want to go like 3 Ashen Ghoul and add a 4th Narcomoeba, I dunno. One good thing about Narcomoeba is that it can block quite some stuff without killing it, so your Bridges don't die as a result of blocking (or getting blocked). So there's that to consider as a sort of pro.

[Whoshim]

Although you might want to go like 3 Ashen Ghoul and add a 4th Narcomoeba, I dunno. One good thing about Narcomoeba is that it can block quite some stuff without killing it, so your Bridges don't die as a result of blocking (or getting blocked). So there's that to consider as a sort of pro.

Yeah, I goldfished a couple of games, and I did miss the Narcomoebas. I think that 4 of those and 3 Ashen Ghouls is probably a good place to start. I don't think having more Ashen Ghouls than Dakmor Salvages is a good idea.

[Final Fortune]

You're going to lose too much time to dredging 2, playing Dakmor Salvage and activating Ashen Ghoul, what makes Silversmote Ghoul good is that it doesn't cost you 4 Dredge or reduce your hand size.

Cabal Therapy punishes fast decks who have slow start, which are your biggest problem. If you want to play "horde mode" then I think just cutting the combo creatures is enough as Prized Amalgram, Silver Smote Ghoul and Hogaak, Risen Acropolis are a lot of added beaters compared to just the Ichorids, Zombie Tokens and Golgari Grave Trolls of old.

I doubt the combo kill is even necessary for the fundamental turn anymore, to me it has always been insurance vs Moat effects and with Creeping Chill I even question that thinking.

[Echelon]

You could always cut the DR package down to 3 DR, 2 Flayer. Saves another slot over 2 Spy/1 Flayer

[Whoshim]

You're going to lose too much time to dredging 2, playing Dakmor Salvage and activating Ashen Ghoul, what makes Silversmote Ghoul good is that it doesn't cost you 4 Dredge or reduce your hand size.

While it may be too slow if that were the only reason we were playing it, the Bloodghasts make it pretty worth it. If you hit 2+ Bloodghasts early, then you have access to 1 mana to pay for a hasty 3/1 the following turn. For longer matches, I think that it is worth it to get the value from the Ashen Ghoul over Cabal Therapy. If we aren't trying to cast Dread Return, then I think it is better to go with Ghoul over Therapy. I may be completely wrong, but it seems pretty good so far. Having access to Bloodghasts + Ashen Ghoul feels like a nice extra line of attack in my (very limited but increasing) testing.

[Whoshim]

On another note, Raffaele Farina put up 2 good results with Manaless at the beginning of this year. Nothing got mentioned in this thread at the time. He was running Vine Dryads and Once Upon a Time:

This list got 1st out of 37. The previous tournament list was the same, except there were 4 Hogaak and 0 Shambling Shell. That result was 2nd out of 49.

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Shambling Shell

3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Vine Dryad
4 Street Wraith

4 Phantasmagorian

Sideboard:
4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap

[Final Fortune]

Vine Dryad seems like a cute idea, probably worse than Basking Rootwalla but there might be some funny list where you play both for turbo Hogaak.

[Whoshim]

Vine Dryad seems like a cute idea, probably worse than Basking Rootwalla but there might be some funny list where you play both for turbo Hogaak.

I think that Rootwalla mostly depends on Phantasmagorian, while Vine Dryad doesn't, so there is some value in that. I do think that the green count is important for Force of Vigor, and I am trying to figure out what the best plan is for the Silversmote/Ashen Ghoul version in that regard.

[Ronald Deuce]

turbo Hogaak.

"TurbOgaak"?

[Legolto]

Hi everyone,
I'm playing manaless dredge since a month now and I'd be pleased to have some tips on sideboard and how to beat the hate on game 2 and 3, and of course comments on my list.
Speaking of the devil, here is what I'm playing :

Creatures (44)
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
1 Thassa's Oracle
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

Sorcery (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

Instant (4)
4 Once Upon a Time

Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below
60 Cards


Sideboard (15)
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Sickening Shoal
4 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Will


I'm playing a more combo-oriented version. I love flayer of the hatebound but it offers our opponents another way to disrupt our deck with white leyline. Thassa oracle doesn't.

I've seen that most of the lists here play Hogaak. I love and I've played 2 exemplar in my first version, but I never played them, they were only pitched on ichorid on game 1, and on FoV or Shoal on game 2/3.

Ive replaced them by 2 additional shambling shell, as my deck seemed to have a lack of dredgers :

Last week I played against snowOko and on my 3 opening hands I didn't have any dredgers. I lost 1-2 and it was a bit frustrating. Since then with -2 hogaak +2 shambling shell, such misadventure never happens (crossing fingers :laugh:)

I have a lot of questions regarding my list and yours :

1) Why serum powder on sideboard ?
2) Vine dryad is a creature we can play for free without graveyard. Ok, nice. But do you really count on it to deal 20 damages ?!? Or is it just another food for dread return ?
3) How do you side and play against black leyline/cage/RIP/containment priest turn 1 ?
4) How do you play against crop rotation -> bojuka bog ?
5) How do you play against Thalia or any permanent that makes our spells cost additional mana(s) ?
6) Is there any situation where you can take a mulligan ? If so, why ?

I know it's a lot, I thank everyone who will answer ^^

[Ronald Deuce]

Hi everyone,
I'm playing manaless dredge since a month now and I'd be pleased to have some tips on sideboard and how to beat the hate on game 2 and 3, and of course comments on my list.
I have a lot of questions regarding my list and yours :

1) Why serum powder on sideboard ?
2) Vine dryad is a creature we can play for free without graveyard. Ok, nice. But do you really count on it to deal 20 damages ?!? Or is it just another food for dread return ?
3) How do you side and play against black leyline/cage/RIP/containment priest turn 1 ?
4) How do you play against crop rotation -> bojuka bog ?
5) How do you play against Thalia or any permanent that makes our spells cost additional mana(s) ?
6) Is there any situation where you can take a mulligan ? If so, why ?

I know it's a lot, I thank everyone who will answer ^^

I noticed a quick thing about your sideboard: it doesn't look like you've got enough blue cards to run Force of Will as things stand right now. When I still had Forces on retainer, I was running quads of Prized Amalgam and (sideboard) Mindbreak Trap/Disrupting Shoal, and I was running Whirlpool Riders instead of Balustrade Spies. Bear in mind that without a second blue card, this deck literally cannot cast Force, and also bear in mind that Force of Will has gotten much harder to accommodate since we lost Gitaxian Probe.

Another thought: Surgical Extraction is probably less useful than Leyline of the Void.

Regarding your questions:
1) I think it's supposed to help find dredgers and anti-hate cards postboard.
2) As a caveat, I'm not sold on Dryad, so someone else probably has a better answer. I think the point of the Dryads is that they fuel Force of Vigor and provide fodder for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return without costing mana.
3) In a list like the one you posted, I'd probably cut back on Dread Return, Nether Shadow, and Balustrade Spy to fit as much anti-artifact/enchantment stuff as possible. If you're losing to Containment Priest, I'd recommend running something like Contagion to supplement the Sickening Shoals.
4) I'd consider sideboard Unmask to deal with Crop Rotation. This is a situation in which I'd consider upping my blue count. Otherwise, we don't really have answers beyond our discards.
5) Just don't cast stuff. I've won games without casting anything with this deck. Sure, one tax effect is enough to stop our combos and Thalia speedbumps our attacks, but we can race their life total if they land a tax effect because all our creatures are effectively free.
6) Yes, but rarely. Rule of thumb is that you don't want to mulligan unless you have neither dredgers nor relevant anti-hate sideboard cards. Other times I've mulliganed have included four-Narcomoeba hands and multiple-Bridge hands with no synthetic discard outlets.

[mistercakes]

does this deck benefit from the modal land cards?

there's 1 black creature/land and 2 green creature/land. is this something the deck needs? i know card slots are kind of tight.

[Echelon]

Well, what would you want to use the mana for? What possibilities would it open up that the deck needs/what weaknesses does it help solve?

[mistercakes]

it can provide some more ways to access sb color mana and not interfere with the spy plan. the creatures add some more value over a regular land since they can be used with nether shadow and also be used with pitch cards.

in a last ditch effort they can also be used to help cast things like thug, shambling shell, and stinkweed imp. (or a really slow spy)

[idc1993]

does this deck benefit from the modal land cards?

there's 1 black creature/land and 2 green creature/land. is this something the deck needs? i know card slots are kind of tight.

The creatures, I think not. At least not on maindeck, because they dont really accomplish anything the deck wants to do and the land coming into play tapped serves no purpose other than casting delayed Therapies and paying for taxing effects (which we shouldn't have problems with since we out aggro such decks).

That said, since the printing of Force of Vigor, it's been suggested to run it alongside Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as 4 offs as a side against Leyline, since any combination of two of them is enough to get the job done.

The same can be accomplished with FoV, Nature's Claim and Turntimber Symbiosis, with the added benefit of not disrupting Balustrade, having the mana be immediately useable against taxers and having more outs to artifact hate, like Graffdiger, other than just FoV. Also, Claim gives the opponent less life than Silence.

Even then, there are the downsides of losing the crature aspect of Dryad and Claim being vulnerable to multiple Leylines at once or a Leyline followed by Chalice on 1 to consider as well.

In any case, new options are always welcome in a deck that, thanks to it's nature of eschewing the most basic aspect of the game (mana), finds itself getting new tools a lot less often than other strategies.

[Legolto]

Thanks a lot for your answer, I take good note of it.

Regarding the dual lands, what I see is that they can help us to cast nature's claim (which makes us lose less tempo than FoV) or ghastly demise (less tempo than black shoal/contagion). Free cards are a real bonus but the pitching sometimes delays our start so much that sometimes you lose because you've done nothing during 3 three turns while your opponent, even if he lost is grave hate, can play his deck with no fear of losing to our strategy.
Now would it be good enough to make the cut ? I don't know.

[idc1993]

Regarding the dual lands, what I see is that they can help us to cast nature's claim (which makes us lose less tempo than FoV) or ghastly demise (less tempo than black shoal/contagion). Free cards are a real bonus but the pitching sometimes delays our start so much that sometimes you lose because you've done nothing during 3 three turns while your opponent, even if he lost is grave hate, can play his deck with no fear of losing to our strategy.
Now would it be good enough to make the cut ? I don't know.

Land followed by Claim loses us the same amount of tempo as FoV since it's still two cards spent from our hand.

Also, the tapped land is vulnerable to Wasteland and untapped land costs us 3 life which, considering that Leyline using decks tend to be aggro oriented, can be relevant in shortening our window of recovery after the two turn delay we get for dealing with the Leyline.

As for making the cut, unfortunately I think it doesn't. The whole Leyline dealing package takes too much sideboard space and puts you in a position where you'll be as ready as you can possibly be to face it but you'll also be vulnerable to almost everything else.

[idc1993]

Thanks a lot for your answer, I take good note of it.

Always happy to contribute with my pet deck's discussion.

Hopefully, one day it'll be viable enough to face a field that's prepared for it instead of just preying on unsuspecting metas.

[GoldenCid]

I got my set of once upon a Time and it Is good indeed. Makes my Mulligan so less frequent.

How does your side look actually?

[idc1993]

I got my set of once upon a Time and it Is good indeed. Makes my Mulligan so less frequent.

How does your side look actually?
Dredgers
2 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Recurring Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Utility
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

Combo Package
1 Whirlpool Drake
2 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Terror of the Peaks

Side:
3 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Vigor
4 Serum Powder

[GoldenCid]

Dredgers
2 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll

Recurring Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Utility
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian

Combo Package
1 Whirlpool Drake
2 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return
1 Terror of the Peaks

Side:
3 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Vigor
4 Serum Powder

This list does not seem solid. Could you explain your cards choices?

[idc1993]

This list does not seem solid. Could you explain your cards choices?

What's wrong with it?

Card choices were pretty standard.
- 14 dredgers
- 4 of every recurring creature
- 2 Hogaaks since it helps the beatdown plan by entering as early as turn 2 or with the aid of tokens after a failed combo attempt, accelerates Dread Return when you have 2 black creatures (easy with Bridges and Therapies) and reduces the number of Returns needed for the combo kill by one, since you can bring in Terror of the Peaks and cycle both of them for the kill. Also it gives any unnecessary stuff in the yard a use
- Terror of the Peaks instead of Flayer of the Hatebound because it trades a bit of the immediate impact of the latter (4+5 damage it does on its own) for being able to work with Hogaak and Zombie tokens, since it triggers from stuff entering your battlefield from anywhere instead of just from your grave
- Once Upon a Time smooths down opening hands by finding dredgers and has the added potential to work as acceleration by finding Wraith
- Balustrade Spy as the deck's little "I Win" button
- Whirlpool Rider fills the slot of the 3rd Balustrade Spy because, after I changed the 4th Force of Negation for a 4th Serum Powder in the side, I needed a 9th Blue card maindeck as to maintain 16 (Force's magic number) blue cards to feed the FoW and FoN package.
- Sideboard consists of 4 green Forces against Leyline and 7 blue Forces against everything else
- Serum Powder works to increase the chance of opening with Force of Vigor in hand. I added the 4th because finding FoV against Leyline is just THAT important.

Here's a previous post of mine with further insight on my thought process when building my list
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=1080955&viewfull=1#post1080955

[Mr. Safety]

I just picked up the last few cards to build this deck, here is where I was going to start. Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!

4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Shambling Shell
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Ichorid
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
3x Balustrade Spy
4x Once Upon a Time
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
4x Dread Return
1x Thassa's Oracle

Sideboard
4x Force of Vigor
4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
1x Misdirection
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Faerie Macabre


Sideboard is a crapshoot, I have no idea if Misdirection is even worth sideboarding. I don't have 4x Force of Negation so I figured Misdirection would be another 'free' way to interact with targeted graveyard hate (Surgical, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb.) I don't know if Hogaak is worth playing or not, but I have them if its necessary.

Also, is there any merit to playing silver-bullet reanimation targets in the sideboard, like Iona, Ashen Rider, or something else?

[OliviaM]

Wow! Thank you!

[idc1993]

I just picked up the last few cards to build this deck, here is where I was going to start. Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!

4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Shambling Shell
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Ichorid
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
3x Balustrade Spy
4x Once Upon a Time
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
4x Dread Return
1x Thassa's Oracle

Sideboard
4x Force of Vigor
4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
1x Misdirection
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Faerie Macabre


Sideboard is a crapshoot, I have no idea if Misdirection is even worth sideboarding. I don't have 4x Force of Negation so I figured Misdirection would be another 'free' way to interact with targeted graveyard hate (Surgical, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb.) I don't know if Hogaak is worth playing or not, but I have them if its necessary.

Also, is there any merit to playing silver-bullet reanimation targets in the sideboard, like Iona, Ashen Rider, or something else?


Seems like a good starting list.

My input:

1- I usually I advocate for Flayer of the Hatebound, Terror of the Peaks or even Lotleth Giant instead of Thassa's Oracle because one could argue that the extra work it saves you from having to put into it to do the combo kill is greatly outclassed by the fact that it is utterly useless for the beatdown plan. If you really want Oracle in your list, try running it alongside one of the aforementioned targets.

2- As for silver bullets, not worth the slots since the list is tight and the deck needs all the sideboard space it can get. Also if you keep the combo post-board there's no reason to reanimate anything other than Spy to give you an edge when you can outright win the game with Spy instead.

3- I personally like Hogaak because it helps both the combo speed and consistency while being a hell of a beater in the aggro plan.

4- From the targeted hate you mentioned, Misdirection only helps against Surgical. In the absence of FoN you can always turn to the previous best thing in the form of Disrupting Shoal. Between Narcomoebas and itself, most of what you want to counter is at the two mana slot. Also, one-shot grave wipes only slow us down and can be played around by keeping Wraiths and/or higher dredgers in hand to refill after they use it.

Just my two cents.
Hope it helps and welcome to the dark side.

[Mr. Safety]

Awesome, thanks! With Surgical being the most common sideboard hate I think the 1-of Misdirection will be ok until I get something else (Shoal/more FoN.)

Just so I'm clear, this is what you suggest:

1) Put Thassa's Oracle in the sideboard, which is perfectly fine with me. I have a Flayer of the Hatebound I can play maindeck, easy swap.
2) Add in Hogaak; I think I can put 2 copies in, but I'm not sure where to cut. Maybe -1 Thug, -1 Street Wraith? I want to keep both green and blue counts high enough for sideboard forces, so Amalgam and Shambling Shell are pretty necessary as 4-of's.
3) Thank you!

[idc1993]

Awesome, thanks! With Surgical being the most common sideboard hate I think the 1-of Misdirection will be ok until I get something else (Shoal/more FoN.)

Just so I'm clear, this is what you suggest:

1) Put Thassa's Oracle in the sideboard, which is perfectly fine with me. I have a Flayer of the Hatebound I can play maindeck, easy swap.
2) Add in Hogaak; I think I can put 2 copies in, but I'm not sure where to cut. Maybe -1 Thug, -1 Street Wraith? I want to keep both green and blue counts high enough for sideboard forces, so Amalgam and Shambling Shell are pretty necessary as 4-of's.
3) Thank you!

My suggestions are:

1) Either run Flayer/Terror (works with Hogaak and Bridge) alongside Oracle in the main or instead of it altogether. Don't waste sideboard space with alternate wincons.

2) If you want specific protection against Surgical, run Faerie and/or Surgical yourself and DON'T SHAVE OFF WRAITHS. Misdirection is too fringe and answers too little.

3) You can shave 2 Shells or 1 Shell and 1 Thug for Hogaak since 14 dredgers is enough with OUAT and your green count has already hit the 16 card mark for FoV. NEVER SHAVE WRAITHS since they are the deck's last source of speed (especially with OUAT) and also protect you from Surgical and Faerie in these BR Reanimator infested times.

4) Though Wraiths and OUAT's are in the "nearly-useless-if-not-found-in-your-first-eight-cards" side of things, opening hands with Wraith, Phantasmagorian and a high Dredger are far too good to have their chances reduced by having less than 4 of any of them (you can shave Pantasmagorians post board).

[Mr. Safety]

Cool, thanks for the fast reply. I'll play it out the way you described. I'll get some additional FoN's when I get the chance.

[idc1993]

Cool, thanks for the fast reply. I'll play it out the way you described. I'll get some additional FoN's when I get the chance.

Always happy to give input about my favorite deck. Made an account solely to participate in this forum, so I'm always lurking around here.

[Mr. Safety]

What do you think about this list? The differences are Chancellor of the Annex and Creeping Chill. I really like the idea of Chancellor, but there is no way I would cut Once Upon a Time (which is not in the list.) Is Chancellor a viable sideboard plan?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27945&d=421641&f=LE

[idc1993]

What do you think about this list? The differences are Chancellor of the Annex and Creeping Chill. I really like the idea of Chancellor, but there is no way I would cut Once Upon a Time (which is not in the list.) Is Chancellor a viable sideboard plan?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27945&d=421641&f=LE

Chancellor helps protect you against turn one discards, "regains" turn parity by skipping your opponent's 1st turn and serves as a DR target for beatdown. I wouldn't trade OUAT for it, but it is decent maindeck as a meta call. In the side, maybe if you're putting all you got into trying to go off before hate hits, but it only buys you one turn IF you have it in your opener.

As for Chills, they buy you extra time vs Burn, Depths and Sneak while accelerating your clock by being extra "Ichorid hits" (even through Grafdigger's Cage). Overall they're very good if you're fond of the aggro approach (you might even want to consider Silversmote Ghoul if you want to go full horde mode). Personally, since LED dredge is the faster aggro, If I'm playing Manaless I rather keep the beatdown as a backup plan and focus on the combo side of the deck. Thus, I always jump straight to cards that work towards both ends.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah I'm sold on Hogaak x2, regardless. I just think the strategy of Chancellor + Dread Return could really put a lot of pressure on opponents, giving time to enact the beatdown plan. I was thinking it might be an idea to sideboard Chancellors for the combo package (3x Spy/1x Oracle) in situations where we can't get under hate. Then it's a matter of swapping whichever cards for Force of Vigor (I'm not anywhere near competent in sideboarding.) That was the idea, so the sideboard would look like this:

4x Force of Vigor
4x Force of Will
1x Mindbreak Trap
4x Chancellor of the Annex
2x Surgical Extraction


I'm not sure how effective it is, but the seeming upside of Once Upon a Time is that it grabs one of the 8 blue creatures to feed Force of Will (Narco/Amalgam) but I think it would still need to be at least 15 cards for mimimal use. I'm at 13 right now, so I don't know if sideboarding Force of Will is correct alongside Chancellor.

Is there an option to board differently than Force of Will? It seems like a stretch even when going up to 16 cards.

[idc1993]

Is there an option to board differently than Force of Will? It seems like a stretch even when going up to 16 cards.

You see, Manaless always had two siding strategies, blue for countering threats or black and green for dealing with them after they hit.

As far as my time with the deck goes, I've never seen anyone else (other than me) who was mad enough to try and fit both approaches together into the same board.

If you're having space issues, you can always try to focus solely on one approach by getting Contagion, to deal with Containment Priest and Scavenging Ooze, and Dryad Arbor-Reverent Silence/Turntimber Symbiosis-Nature's Claim wirh FoV to deal with the likes of Leyline and Cage (Silence is vulnerable to Cage and Claim is vulnerable to more than one Leyline).

That said, I think Chancellors go better with the blue approach. So, without FoN, if you want to up your blue count you can replace any number of Spies with Whirlpool Rider/Drake and you can even consider temporarily replacing OUAT with Sphinx of Foresight (worse in singles or when drawn but beter in multiples).

[OliviaM]

As always informative and available

[Mr. Safety]

Sleaved this up and I am *addicted*. This is an incredibly cool deck. I opted for zero Hogaak for now because I wanted to squeeze in Chancellors. This is my starting list:

4x golgari grave-troll
4x stinkweed imp
4x golgari thug
3x shambling shell
4x narcomoeba
4x ichorid
3x nether shadow
4x street Wraith
4x phantasmagorian
4x prized amalgam
3x balustrade spy
1x thassa's oracle
3x chancellor of the annex
4x once upon a time
4x cabal therapy
4x bridge from below
3x dread return

Sideboard
4x force of vigor
4x force of will
2x force of negation
1x mindbreak trap
2x surgical extraction
2x faerie macabre


Maindeck has been configured to give 15 green cards and 15 blue cards post-board. I don't know if that is enough, but I've seen lists that trim even lower than that.

[idc1993]

Maindeck has been configured to give 15 green cards and 15 blue cards post-board. I don't know if that is enough, but I've seen lists that trim even lower than that.

According to FoW calculations done by someone smarter than me the suggested minimum number of cards to reliably cast a Force is 16 (including the Forces themselves).

If you want a 16th slot for both blue and green you can try Progenitus since it also has the added benefit of giving you extra time after Spy if needed (Show and Tell/Exhume free wins say hello).

[Mr. Safety]

Yes, I know the reliable count is a minimum of 16. This deck doesn't really follow standard conventions, so being a little risky with Forces is par for the course. However, I think I'm going to drop the Force of Wills for other options. I just don't see it as a reliable way to win matches by just 'not losing' to opposing combo decks. I'd rather have ways of fighting those decks with an alternative method, considering I have to actually start my engine before I Force or I end up giving 2 turns minimum for them to rebuild. I have been watching a ton of videos and the most successful versions I've seen, so far, don't use Force of Will; they use Contagion and Force of Vigor.

I'm also looking at some other options for combo decks: Ashen Riders for Sneak/Show and Iona for Storm/Burn. The combo matchups are also a big reason why I wanted to include Chancellors: slowing them down by a turn is sometimes enough to outrace, at least so far in my limited experience. The hardest combo deck I've faced so far is Turbo Depths. I have literally zero reasonable interaction other than trying to jam a Narcomoeba to block or reanimating a Chancellor to block. Then I have to combo-kill through Crop Rotation > Bojuka Bog. I think that matchup has to be around 20/80 in Depths favor.

If I add lands to the sideboard for disruption it would have to be the flip-card lands like Blackbloom Rogue or Tangled Florahedron. I'm not sure that's very promising, but otherwise I'd have to cut the Balustrade Spy package. I'm ok with that, I just haven't seen it in practice yet. I guess I'll have to test it, right? The good news is that in the matchups I want lands wouldn't necessarily be Wasteland decks; entering tapped would be a blowout against Wasteland decks.

[Mr. Safety]

Some noobie questions:

1) Is Noxious Revival worth exploring? It's green for FoV and there is anti-Surgical/Faerie value.
2) Are there distinct lists if a specific card is included? Examples are Whirlpool Rider and Creeping Chill.
3) Are Spirit Gudes (Elvish/Simian) worth sideboarding instead of lands if that route is chosen (for Nature's Claim etc.)? They allow for mana, can't be countered, pay for Daze, and Elvish pitches to FoV.
4) After reading the primer, I'm unsure if including additional free draws is worth the space (such as Mishra's Bauble) to turbo-charge dredging. In my short experience the best games include Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in my opening hand. Older lists played Gitaxian Probe, which was obviously nutty good. Is there an additional 5+ free draw effect we would want?
5) Is Once Upon a Time a stock inclusion at this point? It seems incredibly strong and helps with Force of Vigor.

Sorry for spamming the thread, this is my first true journey into the world of dredge and it's such a drug!

[ronco]

Some noobie questions:

1) Is Noxious Revival worth exploring? It's green for FoV and there is anti-Surgical/Faerie value.
2) Are there distinct lists if a specific card is included? Examples are Whirlpool Rider and Creeping Chill.
3) Are Spirit Gudes (Elvish/Simian) worth sideboarding instead of lands if that route is chosen (for Nature's Claim etc.)? They allow for mana, can't be countered, pay for Daze, and Elvish pitches to FoV.
4) After reading the primer, I'm unsure if including additional free draws is worth the space (such as Mishra's Bauble) to turbo-charge dredging. In my short experience the best games include Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in my opening hand. Older lists played Gitaxian Probe, which was obviously nutty good. Is there an additional 5+ free draw effect we would want?
5) Is Once Upon a Time a stock inclusion at this point? It seems incredibly strong and helps with Force of Vigor.

Sorry for spamming the thread, this is my first true journey into the world of dredge and it's such a drug!

Just a casual observer of the deck and occasional player, here are my thoughts on the above (in other words, noobie answers, ha!):

1) Here are the benefits i see from Noxious Revival: puts dredger on top to ensure you get one. Puts a FoV on top if you need to re-draw it. Hides a key card from surgical (or a bridge from being exiled). And it can put a narco back on top if you really need to flip one next turn for the win. These all seem reasonable, but I don't know if its enough to include it. Faerie Macabre provides surgical protection and serves as Ichorid food, which might be more important. Faerie won't help with the rest, but it may be that the "rest" isn't strong enough to justify the occasional corner case. That being said, I don't know that it has been tested in this thread.

2) I can't speak for the others you mentioned, but a while back there was a "horde mode" version of the deck that forgoes the combo and just means to spam the board with recurring threats. I don't remember if the person who started it did this or if it was something I did, but I ran dakmore salvages, bloodghasts, nether shadows, ichorids, the 3/3 UB dude, and.... ashen ghouls (on top of the usual manaless dredge staples). If your goal was to send an unending amount of creatures, it was great. Not sure it was necessarily tourney worthy, but a fun playtest deck to see how your other deck handles the onslaught. This was a few years ago so who knows what it would look like now with the new additions. So there are probably stock lists that run the ones you mentioned. I have also seen River Kelpie get tested.
Regarding whirpool rider - I never found it to be the slam dunk that others thought it was. I'd rather just DR my spy and call it game, but there were a couple different lists floating around at the time so maybe it was personal preference. HOWEVER, I was also NOT on FoW so I think if you are going to run those main, you need the blue count that these helped with, and could wheel your hand in a pinch if need be. So, if you run force, you may be more likely to run this.
Creeping chill - I did use this one and felt it was just ever so slightly not good enough. Maybe in a burn heavy meta the life gain might matter, but if I flip the deck with spy, I win regardless of chills, and if I don't see the spy, i'm only flipping 1, maybe 2, which was never enough to kill them or keep me alive. And, if it is in your opener, its a dead card and its only use is delve, so I don't think it fits, at least with what I am running and have seen most people run.

3) I think these would fall into the same category of noxious revival, where its REALLY good in certain situations like you mentioned, but they might be too narrow for use in the deck/outside of the opening hand. Especially since they are exiled if it isn't in your opener, you can only delve it, that's it. I don't think daze is really an issue anyway for this deck, is it? Thalia might be more of a problem but given that D&T has a pretty heavy graveyard hate sideboard, that might just be a concession this deck has to make. Pitching to FoV is good too, but there might be some cards that are better suited for that and can serve a double duty. 'gaak pitches, vine dryad and gigapede have all seen play and can pitch to FoV while providing some other value as well.

4) I think it started that way, but i never played them so i don't know why they went off those. maybe there was a creature count issue.

5) In my experience yes, but again, i'm not the expert on dredge (long time listener, first time caller). I'm currently on a 'gaak list so the OUaT can be delved away if it isn't in the opener, and if it is, you can bet I'll be having a strong play. I think that card is strong enough to justify running even though its only good in the opener, aside from delving.

For disclosure, here is what I am running. Its a total net deck from a few pages back that someone put up good results with:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Vine Dryad
4 Street Wraith

4 Phantasmagorian

Sideboard:

4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Serum Powder

(SB is off because I don't have all the cards, hence the serum powder to find them, ha!)
link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge&p=1085921&viewfull=1#post1085921

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the response, it will help me decide how to get different configurations together for testing.

I saw the Vine Dryad list...I'm skeptical. It's a free creature, but only if you already have the dredge engine going. I can see it as a way to utilize spare OUAT/Hogaaks, which the list maxes out on both. I've been testing a version with Balustrade Spy's and Thassa's Oracle that seems really good, no Hogaaks. I think if you want Hogaak then Vine Dryad seems ok. I have a hard time deciphering if a deck I don't have experience with did well because of cute tech or because the inherent strategy was strong against the field. Some decks I can decipher that, but certainly not with dredge.

[ronco]

I'm not 100% I'm using it right, but I've been using it mainly to get my third creature for DR and occasionally to get a second color pip to convoke gaak. It also pitches to FoV and can be sac fodder for cabal therapy in a pinch. But I'm still in net decking phases with this deck from an understanding of it. So who knows!

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

I think it's fine g1, because you are almost always going to be getting your first dredge engine moving g1. After that it's a simple matter of getting a free dude at some point, as long as you have a spare green card to pitch. I think it's essentially a 'free' 2/2, but I don't like that it opens you up to even minor disruption like Daze and Bolt.

I'm trying to figure out a polished list, something where I can reliably cast Force of Will/Negation out of the sideboard but still have combo potential g1. Without trying it yet, I don't know if Whirlpool Rider dredges enough to reliably set up a Thassa's Oracle kill. Balustrade Spy is a definite, Rider leaves some room for fizzling. I can easily switch over to Flayer but Oracle is just such a clean win (and is blue for Force of Will post-board.)

Do most people just sideboard out the DR combo package g2, add disruption and go for aggro value?

[idc1993]

Do most people just sideboard out the DR combo package g2, add disruption and go for aggro value?

Depends on the opposition. Against counter/thorn/sphere filled decks you're unlikely to combo anyways, so yes, it's better to go for beats and use those slots for protection.

Against fast decks on the other hand, I keep the combo in to match their speed and shave off Phantasmagorians and other cards that might be useless in that specific matchup (Therapies vs. Burn for example) in favor of disruption.

Same thing when facing Leyline decks, you NEED the speed you get from the combo to make up for the time you'll lose by casting FoV.

[Mr. Safety]

That makes sense, thanks for the response. I figure the decks where I want to keep the combo in are: Storm, Depths, Burn, Dredge, Doomsday. The decks I would board it out are: Delver, 4c/Stryfo, blue-based midrange and control variants. I think the combo is pretty decent against the non-blue decks, but anything with Daze makes Dread Return a liability.

Is Gigapede still an option for this deck? I've noticed that the best opening hands involve Phantasmagorian, so having a 5th discard enabler that doesn't cost mana or require a full hand size to enable seems like a great idea. I would only play one, because of room, but I also like that it can feed Force of Vigor out of the board. Being a shroud 6-power threat isn't anything to sneeze at either, even though hard-casting it is unlikely due to boarding out Dread Returns in the matchups where Gigapede would be decent.

[Final Fortune]

I still don't understand using Vine Dryad over Basking Rootwalla if you want a free, green dork?

Gigapede is an ok card, it's a subtle way of maximizing the value of your starting hand by discarding a card you'd rather have in your graveyard while playing around a Tormod's Crypt blow out. It's a lot like Shambling Shell, in the sense that people are never happy when they draw it over the alternatives while failing to undrstand how important meak redundancy is vs hate. I don't know what SBs are like these days, but I was pretty happy with bringing in Force of Vigor and Gigapedes for the combo creatures and Phantasmagorians in the grindy matchups.

[idc1993]

I still don't understand using Vine Dryad over Basking Rootwalla if you want a free, green dork?

Even though I don't use it myself, as I understand it Rotwalla is more condicional since it depends solely on Phantasmagorian/Therapy while, between extra Hogaaks/Shells/Trolls/OUaT's, Dryad'll seldom, if ever, be short on cards to enable it. Also it kills Thalia and Containment Priest (and survives).

Only real upside of Rotwalla is being resistant to countermagic.

[Mr. Safety]

So I was looking at this card, and it seems so close to being playable, and I would love if it could do something:

Tormod, the Desecrator

It's a free trigger (we love that), it rewards us for doing what we are already doing (getting closer to playable), and can create massive advantage over just a few turns. Is it just too expensive? I think I already know the answer, it's just too bad that a sweet card like this can't be valuable in Legacy.

We get a zombie every time we dredge, we get a zombie every time we flashback Cabal Therapy, we get a zombie every time we resolve a Dread Return, and we get a zombie every time we resolve a Narcomoeba trigger. This is like a reverse Bride from Below where instead of creatures being sacrificed it's anything that leaves our graveyard. In the face of early graveyard interaction (where we can't Dread Return this guy) he is just as useless as any other DR target.

[Reeplcheep]

In what situations do you prefer it to:

Balustrade Spy
Lotleth Giant
Syr Konrad, the Grim
Thassa’s Oracle

[Mr. Safety]

The low-hanging fruit is Stifle, which completely hoses all of those win conditions save Syr Konrad, and honestly there may not be any other reasons. I think the more appropriate comparison would be Hogaak. Both are legendary, both are cards that support a more aggro approach rather than a combo approach. Hogaak has his own built-in Reanimate though while Tormod does not. The tokens entering tapped makes this a little awkward as well.

One angle is that if you DR a Tormod, opponent's might not be inclined to counter it with Force of Will/Negation. They may try and grind through it so they have the Force for Balustrade Spy, Thassa's Oracle, etc. In that sense Tormod can be something that increases threat density that can overwhelm meaningful non-graveyard interaction.

More than anything it's a thought experiment, something to just discuss. I'm not saying its great, I'm not even advocating for Tormod's inclusion. It's just a cool card that may have been overlooked.

EDIT: Tricks with Tormod are also a possibility, as in using Surgical/Faerie Macabre on your own cards to counter your opponent's Surgical/Cling to Dust. You end up with some value afterwards that you wouldn't normally get. It's niche, but anything going past the first few turns this ends up being something that can create inevitability, even in the face of grave hate.

EDIT #2: I'm not 100% sure what it's interaction with Grafdigger's Cage would be. I know it prevents cards from entering the battlefield from the graveyard, but it doesn't prevent cards from leaving the graveyard completely.

[Mr. Safety]

If I were to go into a legacy tournament tomorrow, this is definitely the deck I would bring. I think there is a strong argument for Creeping Chill + Hogaak beats as a focus, simply because Stifle has upticked in a huge way. Stifle completely stops Balustrade Spy and Whirlpool Rider, so just having some strong inevitability to grind away with Hogaak/Ichorids/zombies/Creeping Chills seems pretty good.

[Bougnat]

Hi,

long time without making a comment on this topic (my favorite deck). With modern Horizon II, we have now new possibility. 2 cards seems really good : GRIEF and ENDURANCE


The advantage of ENDURANCE :
With the Evoque cost, if you have a Bridge from Below in your graveyard, you create 2/2 zomby token
If you are playing ONCE UPON A TIME, you can find them, wich is an alternative of finding (most of the time) Street Wraith
Force of vigor is really common now in our SB. With endurance wich need also green cards, the choice to play a Green Manaless is reinforced.


The advantage of GRIEF :
With the Evoque cost, if you have a Bridge from Below in your graveyard, you create 2/2 zomby token
If you are playing ONCE UPON A TIME, you can find them, wich is an alternative of finding (most of the time) Street Wraith
playing 4 Cabal Therapy is really good, but now I really want to test MD 4 Cabal Therapy + 4 unmask + 4 grief + 4 Once upon a time (to find grief) making our deck control !!! and as said before, you can create token with the Evoque cost : this can potentially help us to cast Cabal Therapy.
T1 discard dredge, T2 grief + Cabal Therapy is really strong.


Here is one list with GRIEF:


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 GRIEF

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam

4 Street Wraith
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below

3 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

[Bougnat]

Hi,

I tried also to make a list "GREEN Manaless" including Endurance. Some of you will ask why Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis is not present MD. It' s possible, maybe 2 is OK but I have not found the place.




"GREEN Manaless"


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Land Grant

4 Street Wraith
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound


SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Endurance
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 3 Reverent Silence


This version seems a little bit less powerfull MD compary to black version. But We are strong with SB and have a real alternative against Graveyard and graveyard haste.

[WarpWorld]

Hi,

I tried also to make a list "GREEN Manaless" including Endurance. Some of you will ask why Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis is not present MD. It' s possible, maybe 2 is OK but I have not found the place.




"GREEN Manaless"


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Land Grant

4 Street Wraith
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Dread Return
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound


SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Endurance
SB: 4 Force of Vigor
SB: 3 Reverent Silence


This version seems a little bit less powerfull MD compary to black version. But We are strong with SB and have a real alternative against Graveyard and graveyard haste.

Dryad and spy is a nombo. In this case spy should be one of the whirlpool creatures.

I am currently testing greif md atm and it is to soon for me to tell yet. Still tweaking numbers. Haven't tested endurance yet but will definitely do it at some point. I could see a full green sideboard plan with force and endurance going forward for sure.

[Gurthang]

Good afternoon, Manaless Brothers!

I am Raffaele Farina, and I'm honored my list and results picked your interest!
I'm a passionate Manaless player, and I still experiment the archetype in many different ways!

A side note: I placed 1st in both events you spoke of. There was a mistake from the event moderators to list the top 8 accordingly (Arcana League - Italy)

There was also a mistake in uploading my list.

The first list I piloted included 4 Hogaaks and NO Shambling Shell at all. I played with 12 dredgers.

In my second performance, same list but a difference in SB (4 Leyline of Sanctity to replace Mindbreak Traps, and I still bless em!), while I kept 1 Ashen Rider MD instead of the 4th Hogaak (this is still my actual configuration) gaining a slot in SB for 1 Vengeful Pharaoh.

I hope I'm welcomed in this community!
I'm here to answer any question and, above all, to ask questions myself for improvement!

Take care!

[ZeKripton]

Well played Gurthang !
Do you have some kind of report from your matches?

[Bougnat]

Hi,

I way thinking how we can go thought Enduance, and finally the answer was to come back to a Blue dredge manaless ! Here the list i propose:

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Force of Will
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Force of Negation
3 Whirlpool Warrior
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Commandeer

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Contagion
SB: 4 Archive Trap
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

[Whoshim]

That is a lot of blue. :D Why Whirlpool Warrior over Rider and Drake? I personally think that the 2 mana of Rider for Disrupting Shoal is probably relevant more often, but I could be wrong.

You are also on 11 dredgers with no Once Upon a Time, so switching out a couple of spells (like Commandeer) may be better. Commandeer seems a little too desperate, and it doesn't do anything against Endurance, Containment Priest, Faerie Macabre, Thalia, etc.

[Mr. Safety]

There is already a template, established early on in the deck's history (maybe even first?) for a blue-based/Force of Will version of manaless dredge. I don't know if it's worth playing, mostly because it shuts off one of the best avenues g1 with Balustrade Spy/Dread Return/Thassa's Oracle. Once you include that package you don't have room for Forces/Whirlpool Rider. Not only that, but you still don't have an answer to Leyline of the Void. The green-based versions have at least Force of Vigor to fight the common hate (Leyline, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Soul-guide Lantern.)

[Bougnat]

Sorry, the explanation was not paste with My blue list and i understand your comment :smile:

I know the list proposed is not common, i always try to think about the metagame. It can be surpassed in 2-6 mounths but i’ m based on the list of other deck from tournament result to make assumptions.

Ur delver is the DTB (a good matchup for us) 14% of the top 8 lists from the last 2 months
Bant Control is the new ovni deck, 8% of the last 2 months top 8 and still increase (source mtgtop8)
Death and taxes still present
Number of Leyline of the void in subboard decrease (don’t know exactly why, maybe because of the popularity of endurance.


Whirlpool Warrior is here to counter Endurance with Disrupting Shoal, witch is the main problem 1st game.
I believe the deck is easier to play with ballustrade spy, and Phantasmagorian (one of the best card for this game), but without solution Main Deck it’s really hard against endurance. The planeswalker bounce this creature and we lost .
Commandeer is Like silver bullet :smile: the 2 slots were the last of the list. I wanted blue card to increase the power of free counterspell. And it’s a kind of counterspell, but not exactly. You can make miracle with it: With a brainstorm you dredge 3 Times! , and it’s also a pleasure with sylvan library, jace, careful study, Faithless Looting, stoping a LED….

For SB : leyline of sanctify is not synegic with the game, but it’s a solution against endurance + bojuka bog. And with the deck playing them we can wait 1 turn more.

[ronco]

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Bridge from Below

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Dread Return

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Vine Dryad
4 Street Wraith

4 Phantasmagorian

Sideboard:

4 Force of Vigor
3 Sickening Shoal
1 Ashen Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Serum Powder


Took this to a local. Went 2-2
R1 vs rhett on Yorion DNT (lost 1-2)
Game 1 had t2 Spy combo.

Boarded in Force of Vigors and boarded out spy.

Game 2 dealth with an early grafdigger's cage and lion's sash, but by the time I got up and running again a RiP and a Kaldra sealed it for me. Punted a little bit as he surgicaled my Phantasmagorian and I could have just bounced him but I thought maybe it was best to slow play. Given the hate he had probably wouldn't have mattered, but learned for next time.

Game 3 was a little bit slower but a containment priest came down and I didn't have an answer other than get lucky and draw 2 vine dryads and a gaak. I did not.
1-2 / 0-1.

R2 vs Alex on UR Delver. (won 2-0)
Game 1 I chip away with with Shadow/Ichorid damage and eventually have a big dredge and come back with i think all for Ichys, some narcos and maybe a token or two.
Game 2 is much of the same. Ichorid beats gets me there. Not a whole lot of graveyard interaction here, I think unlicensed hearse was his hate.
3 -2 / 1-1

R3 vs Morgan on URW Mentor (won 2-1)
Game 1 i do the spy thing. It goes quick.
boarded in force of vigors, boarded out spy. Wasn't sure what hate he would bring in and turns out surgical was what it was.
Game 2 I have the worst luck in the history of luck. I keep a sketchy opener of street wraith, Once upon a time, and 5 non-dredgers. I once upon a time, no dredgers but I get a street wraith. I cycle both, no dredgers. I start just discarding shadows and ichorids to try and do something. Both get surgicalled. Eventually he gets the mentor out and has to go targeting his own creatures with removal and then countering it to get the tokens. He beats me down eventually, I don't see a single dredger all game.

put the FoV back and breing spy back in.
Game 3 he has some StP removal for my ichorid but I'm able to get some quick beats in before going for the spy package. IT was a go for it kinda playfor me as i had no therapy for protection and it would have wiped out my graveyard oetherwise (to get the Ichy's in play) He brainstorms in response and doesn't find an answer, so I win.

5-3 / 2-1

Round 4 win and in vs Paul on GB NO elves. (Lose 1-2).
As a repayment for my shit draw in game 2 vs morgan, the shuffle gods give me a dredger and 3 street wraiths in my opener. You can imagine how this goes. Its over quick.
I figure he has leylines and endurance, so i bring in the FoV.
Game 2 he has leyline in the opener (one of onnly 2 he has, so good luck there). I deal with it but he OuaT for and finds an endurance so I try to play around that but this gives him too many turns.
Game 3 is similar - he has his leyline and I have my force, but giving elves 2 bonus turns with no other interaction for me will not go in my favor 10 times out of 10.

Overall, was fun. Made a few mistakes but nothing that would cost me the game. Just wanted to jam something different today. Figured I'd share with everyone else.

6 - 4 / 2-2.

Overall 6th finish of 12. Meta had:
Manaless,
Elves
Red prison
UR delver
Sneak n Show
Yorion DNT
Lands
Eldrazi Post
Karn Pox
Infext
and 2 others I didn't have a chance to see what they had.

Only cast hoogak once and I don't think it mattered. I believe it was forced.