D&T or Maverick?

[Dutch253]

I'm still trying to decide what deck to play and both appeal to me. So the question is what's better and why? The downside of building these as a first deck is they don't contain a ton of format staples outside Wasteland right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[thecrav]

The downside of building these as a first deck is they don't contain a ton of format staples outside Wasteland right?


More specifically, some of the expensive things you'll be buying don't apply much to other decks. With D&T, you'll be buying into Ports. With Maverick, you'll be buying into a manabase that focuses on a weak(er than others) color pair.

[Dutch253]

More specifically, some of the expensive things you'll be buying don't apply much to other decks. With D&T, you'll be buying into Ports. With Maverick, you'll be buying into a manabase that focuses on a weak(er than others) color pair.

Exactly my problem! The decks aren't sooo expensive but they also don't have cards universally used like Jace, Force and Lilly. I just know that it would take me years to build a deck that plays Underground Sea etc.

[Lord Seth]

Death & Taxes has done a lot better than Maverick over the last year. I'd go with that.

[Barook]

I've played both decks, and I would say that D&T is both stronger and more fun to play.

[ironclad8690]

Pre-deathrite shaman Maverick was super fun and extremely consistent with few natural predators. Nowadays I have to say that Death and Taxes is just a more objectively powerful deck.

[lordofthepit]

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend Maverick. I get better mileage out of that deck, and the cards in that deck overlap with more of the other decks in the format you might eventually want to move into.

[Lemnear]

The Problem with Maverick is that in the days Post-DRS, the deck has not only gone full 3 color, but lost a lot of punch due to graveyard hate messing with a lot of reasons you play BG in the first place (Goyf, KotR, DRS). Both decks play Thalia + SFM anyway, so going with the deck which goes basically the same technical Route in just a single color but with additional tricks (Vial + Karakas) is preferable in the face of the current powerhouse Miracles

[Fatal]

You should answer on first spot what is your meta - more controlish/midrange or more combo overlay, D&T have some problems vs midrange decks due to lack of CA/CQ or some blanks like multiple Vials. On long game Maverick < D&T thanks to scaling threads like Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, or CQ like GSZ. In short games D&T > Maverick, thanks to more resource control oriented strategy.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Exactly my problem! The decks aren't sooo expensive but they also don't have cards universally used like Jace, Force and Lilly. I just know that it would take me years to build a deck that plays Underground Sea etc.

Jace and Lilly are not universally used. They are not really different to Rishadan Port in that regard though Rishadan Port lost some usage since Goblins is right now is not a tier 1 deck anymore.

D&T is rather cheap outside of Ports and SFM and Wasteland are used in a many decks.

[Tokugawa]

Jace and Lilly are not universally used. They are not really different to Rishadan Port in that regard though Rishadan Port lost some usage since Goblins is right now is not a tier 1 deck anymore.

D&T is rather cheap outside of Ports and SFM and Wasteland are used in a many decks.
3+ Karakas is also a configulation you won't see at anywhere else.

[Barook]

You should answer on first spot what is your meta - more controlish/midrange or more combo overlay, D&T have some problems vs midrange decks due to lack of CA/CQ or some blanks like multiple Vials. On long game Maverick < D&T thanks to scaling threads like Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, or CQ like GSZ. In short games D&T > Maverick, thanks to more resource control oriented strategy.
Maverick does have issues with Miracles to a certain degree, while a good D&T pilot should be favored alot against them (except against really good Miracle players since those can put up a fight, but you should be still favored).

How good Maverick is against midrange builds also depends on the build - PF builds certainly have a way easier time to grind down those matches.

@Dutch253: What does your meta look like?

[Kanti]

Doesn't a protected (Sylvan Safekeeper) Gaddock Teeg just stop Miracles? Seems like a legit plan to me. And to answer your question, play the deck you like more.

[Lemnear]

Doesn't a protected (Sylvan Safekeeper) Gaddock Teeg just stop Miracles? Seems like a legit plan to me. And to answer your question, play the deck you like more.

Engineered Explosives, Councils Judgement and other cards are run between MB and SB for that stuff anyways. Not even talking about Legends Builds with Karakas.

[Fatal]

Engineered Explosives vs Protected Gaddock by Safekeeper isn't best answer unless it's played prefact. Only real answer to break the lock is Council Judgement / Karakas (doesn't break the lock, but can overload removal - lands count) - until waste.

[Benke]

By just looking at tournament results - Death and Taxes is miles ahead of Maverick. It might partly be due to less people playing Maverick, but also as a result of Miracles being a top tier deck. It is true that Gaddok Teeg+safekeeper disables the Miracles deck, but getting that combination onto the board is often easier said than done.

I am a Maverick player myself and I think the archetype is very underrepresented.

[Lemnear]

By just looking at tournament results - Death and Taxes is miles ahead of Maverick. It might partly be due to less people playing Maverick, but also as a result of Miracles being a top tier deck. It is true that Gaddok Teeg+safekeeper disables the Miracles deck, but getting that combination onto the board is often easier said than done.

I am a Maverick player myself and I think the archetype is very underrepresented.

Because running 0-1 Teeg and 0-1 Safekeeper isn't reliable in the first place. KotR + Tarmogoyf became a lot less relevant due to the printings of Delver, Batterskull, DRS, TNN and more effective yard-hate in general. Maverick is a shadow of it's own past since Tarmogoyf Wars are no longer the metagame standards

[klaus]

Because running 0-1 Teeg and 0-1 Safekeeper isn't reliable in the first place.
That's what GSZ is for..
-

There's a guy on MWS called M@verick who tweaked a list that seems to be at least on par if not favored against Miracles.
It's been a while but I'll try to reconstruct it:

4 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sylvan Library
4 KotR
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Weathered Wayfarer
2 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 GSZ
4 STP
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Vial
39

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
(21)

SB:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Choke
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Bojuka Bog
2 RiP
1 Pithing Needle
3 ?

[Einherjer]

Ehm, not really. M@vericks idea was to build an Aether Vial Maverick build, not Zenith. You can find most of his lists here:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14813&iddeck=109735

Greetings

[Julian23]

He's also a real baller and thus far the only person to Top8 the Bazaar of Moxen with a 62 card deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26181_Reviewing-The-Bazaar-Of-Moxen.html).


a guy on MWS called M@verick

His name is Luis Viciano and his nickname "M@verick" is the reason the deck is called that way.

[BTY]

Because running 0-1 Teeg and 0-1 Safekeeper isn't reliable in the first place. KotR + Tarmogoyf became a lot less relevant due to the printings of Delver, Batterskull, DRS, TNN and more effective yard-hate in general. Maverick is a shadow of it's own past since Tarmogoyf Wars are no longer the metagame standards

You also have 4 mother of runes to protect it and sword of light and shadow generally, post board you get more teegs and sometimes something like choke as well. Also even in mavericks "prime" it very rarely ran tarmogoyf, and it very rarely runs it today.

[Finn]

I like the fact that he has Zeniths (and thus the Arbor) and Vials in the same deck. I have always wanted to go t1 Vial into t1 Arbor in a tournament. Living the dream with that opening is very strong, and the 4 virtual mana on turn 2 occurs with no card disadvantage.

[Fatal]

Wonderland:

T1:Fetch, Vial + Dryad arbor from Vial
T2:Tick Vial, Fetch, KotR opponent respond with StP you respond with Safekeeper from Vial

Yeap,a dream :D

[Dutch253]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I think I'll probably just go with Death and Taxes. I've basically got Burn built so I'll try to win myself some store credit and trade for some of the D&T staples.

[Megadeus]

I like the fact that he has Zeniths (and thus the Arbor) and Vials in the same deck. I have always wanted to go t1 Vial into t1 Arbor in a tournament. Living the dream with that opening is very strong, and the 4 virtual mana on turn 2 occurs with no card disadvantage.

Except the fact that vial in itself is card disadvantage.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Except the fact that vial in itself is card disadvantage.

Its not. Its like saying playing a land is card disadvantage. Its not a thread by itself...

[FoolofaTook]

Its not. Its like saying playing a land is card disadvantage. Its not a thread by itself...

Drawing a vial mid-game is one of the worst things that can happen to you. I'll just leave it at that.

[Bahra]

Drawing a vial mid-game is one of the worst things that can happen to you. I'll just leave it at that.

I can think of a lot worse things than "drawing a vial mid-game".

Vial's are not redundant, especially not when your opponent is willing to spend Abrupt Decays, Force of Wills and Council's Judgements to get rid of them.

[FoolofaTook]

I can think of a lot worse things than "drawing a vial mid-game".

Vial's are not redundant, especially not when your opponent is willing to spend Abrupt Decays, Force of Wills and Council's Judgements to get rid of them.

A vial does nothing to ameliorate the immediate board state and it doesn't come online for at least a turn after it is played and often 2 turns. It doesn't help you cast another spell the turn it is drawn. It is frequently redundant with another vial already on the board and doesn't combo with that vial in most builds in any meaningful way.

It's just a very bad mid-game draw in most cases, worse than a land most of the time and a land is the definition of a bad mid-game draw.

[iamajellydonut]

I don't mean to disparage the card, and I hate to agree with FoolofaTook (I really, really do), but there is a reason you don't start every BUG Delver list with 4*Aether Vial. Vial is largely strategic advantage, and usually only fails to be card disadvantage if you can goad your opponent into wasting a piece of removal on it.

[rickster]

Vial is a mana source. It seems strange to call a mana source card disadvantage.

[iamajellydonut]

Vial is a mana source. It seems strange to call a mana source card disadvantage.

Fine, then consider it a mana source. And then consider that you're replacing four pieces of business with four additional pieces of mana.

[Barook]

Sure, Vial isn't the best draw mid-/lategame, but it's far from useless. If I can set up two Vials in D&T, I'm a happy camper, since my mana is free for other stuff.

And the whole card disadvantage discussion is stupid. Who cares? You play Vial in decks specifically designed to take advantage of it. And the discussion completely disregards that it can turn your creatures into pseudo-removal for attackers, or surprise kill Planeswalkers, all while also blanking their counters (aka virtual card advantage because their draws are dead). What's next? Calling equipment card disadvantage? :eyebrow:

Running it in a deck with 4 GSZ seems subpar, though, since they don't synergize that well.

Reading the last few posts makes me feel like reading an erratic card discussion thread for the Darksteel set spoiler.

[Finn]

Interesting note: Aether Vial was ignored by almost everyone for months after its release. Even after people started to recognize how broken it was, players had a hard time categorizing what the card did. Nobody really called it acceleration back then.

Mirrodin was an incredibly interesting expansion. It had so many cards that did things nothing else had ever done before. It is not surprising that they banned so many cards in Standard and eventually Extended also. They really had too many new things all going on at once. Artifact lands plus all the dozens of cards that pushed the envelope but did not get axed, but also Arcbound Ravager and Skullclamp in Darksteel a few months later. It was in this environment that Aether Vial was eventually recognized.

[FoolofaTook]

Interesting note: Aether Vial was ignored by almost everyone for months after its release. Even after people started to recognize how broken it was, players had a hard time categorizing what the card did. Nobody really called it acceleration back then.

Mirrodin was an incredibly interesting expansion. It had so many cards that did things nothing else had ever done before. It is not surprising that they banned so many cards in Standard and eventually Extended also. They really had too many new things all going on at once. Artifact lands plus all the dozens of cards that pushed the envelope but did not get axed, but also Arcbound Ravager and Skullclamp in Darksteel a few months later. It was in this environment that Aether Vial was eventually recognized.

Vial is really good in the first turn or two and when your opponent is playing counters. When it works as acceleration and disruption at the same time it is at the highpoint of it's value. I don't argue that it's not a good card in the right lists however it's highly conditional in it's value and it loses value as a topdeck faster than most cards as the game state matures.

It's a great card in D&T because a turn 1 vial is frequently a game-winning play although that may not become apparent for several turns. In lists that are already playing other ways to bring creatures into play directly from the library it's a bad option in my opinion. It's value is with cards in your hand and mechanisms to put creatures into play that do not involve having them in your hand weaken vial's overall value.

Survival of the Fittest was a great card with Aether Vial because the combo came on line early and you could take any creature in your hand and turn it into the toolbox creature you needed with a vial in play. I just don't see any combo that works well enough at this point to justify playing vials other than as acceleration and early disruption. There is value in a deployed vial at any point during a game, however that value is generally less than just having a deployed creature instead. Often the value is less than having anything but another land deployed at that point.

The list being discussed used both vials and Green Sun's Zenith in combination. That's the perfect example of a lack of synergy in motion. Drawing a Green Sun's Zenith with a vial in play is much less valuable than just drawing a creature in that situation. Drawing a vial with Green Sun's Zenith in hand is usually less valuable than just drawing another land to enable a bigger GSZ or avoiding re-enabling your opponent's Dazes and Spell Pierces in the mid-game.

It's just not a good synergy in my opinion.

[Dutch253]

Whew, didn't intent this thread to turn into a Vial debate. It was supposed to be about deciding to build DnT or Maverick!

[Koby]

Whew, didn't intent this thread to turn into a Vial debate. It was supposed to be about deciding to build DnT or Maverick!

Welcome to The Source!

D&T will teach you how to manipulate the stack.
Maverick will teach you sequencing and how to metagame.

Both are great decks and require above average amount of time to play well.
Good luck!

[Lemnear]

Whew, didn't intent this thread to turn into a Vial debate. It was supposed to be about deciding to build DnT or Maverick!

That's that usually happens if no one keeps the discussion on track

[Finn]

My understanding back in the day was that Mav had some trouble with Miracles. Is that no longer the case? The Maverick players I speak to tell me that Miracles is not such a hard matchup. If Miracles is not a bad matchup for Maverick, what is?

[iamajellydonut]

My understanding back in the day was that Mav had some trouble with Miracles. Is that no longer the case? The Maverick players I speak to tell me that Miracles is not such a hard matchup. If Miracles is not a bad matchup for Maverick, what is?

Miracles is still a piss poor match-up. It's not strictly unfair or unwinnable, but I would say that Maverick comes out the underdog in the match-up. And it's basically the same problem that every other Junk/Rock/Jund build has. You can drop your Teeg. You can keep pressing threats and bears and hate. But at the end of the day they can just keep their fetches uncracked and Entreat for a relatively flawless victory. Or Jace lock. Or whatever.

[Dutch253]

Miracles insanely strong. If budget was no issue I'd run that just based on how strong it is.

[Barook]

Miracles is still a piss poor match-up. It's not strictly unfair or unwinnable, but I would say that Maverick comes out the underdog in the match-up. And it's basically the same problem that every other Junk/Rock/Jund build has. You can drop your Teeg. You can keep pressing threats and bears and hate. But at the end of the day they can just keep their fetches uncracked and Entreat for a relatively flawless victory. Or Jace lock. Or whatever.
Teeg does prevent them from playing their Miracles and Jace, though. Keeping Teeg in play vs StP, Council's Judgment and Karakas is a whole different topic, though.

Aether Vial is one of the main reasons why D&T is good vs. Miracles. You completely neuter their countersuit, you can still continue to pressure them after Terminus and you can troll them with instant speed Flickerwisps and Revokers.

[iamajellydonut]

Teeg does prevent them from playing their Miracles and Jace, though. Keeping Teeg in play vs StP, Council's Judgment and Karakas is a whole different topic, though.

I figured all that went without saying.

[Finn]

Well, you said that they can Entreat or Jace even if you Teeg.......whatever. We know what you meant.


Well that was valuable. With Miracles remaining at or near the top of the metagame for quite some time now, I think that until Maverick et al have a better plan against Miracles, I would tell Mr. Dutch to stick to D+T (and expect to take your lumps while you learn how to pilot it).

[Tormod]

Dead Guy Ale

... Only Wilkin can win with that pile

[Megadeus]

Dead Guy Ale

... Only Wilkin can win with that pile

I second this.

Hey I got a top 8 with it :tongue:

[Wilkin]

I second this.

Hey I got a top 8 with it :tongue:

You certainly did, with a little help from Shriekmaw. I wasn't watching coverage that day until someone texted me that there was a Deadguy Ale player playing that card. I was very amused at the commentators puzzlement as to why that card would be in a deck.


As for the original question. I like Death and Taxes a bit better. It's probably because of Aether Vial getting around Counter Magic Shenanigans.

[klaus]

Fine, then consider it a mana source. And then consider that you're replacing four pieces of business with four additional pieces of mana.

Adding 4 Vials to a creature-heavy deck allows you to cut about 2 land.

[DudeItsCorey]

If Miracles is not a bad matchup for Maverick, what is?

Miracles is a bad matchup. It has gotten better with the lack of Karakas. It's not unbeatable, however, a very skilled Miracles player should win most of the time. The worst Matchups are Elves and Charbeltcher/Oops All Spells. Thalia does nothing against the creature based combo and the turn "0" decks just destroy us because we don't have force of will. Combo can be a headache at time, but Maverick definitely has the tools to beat Burn, Omni, Storm, Sneak and Show, Dredge, etc.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

What is the maveric plan vs omni? Do we play 4waste/thalia?. Karakas is for Emrakrul but not for Omni... Teeg does nothing? Just asking -.-

[iamajellydonut]

What is the maveric plan vs omni? Do we play 4waste/thalia?. Karakas is for Emrakrul but not for Omni... Teeg does nothing? Just asking -.-

Plan:
Present clock. Thoughtseize in from the board. Canonist prevents them from winning on the same turn. Pridemage wins the war. Thalia slows them. Teeg can punish hands that are reliant on resolving Enter the Infinite.



Adding 4 Vials to a creature-heavy deck allows you to cut about 2 land.

Great.

[nevilshute]

Teeg also stops DTT. A lot of the time now Omni will go off with a hand consisting of a DTT and a few cantrips but no actual win piece (wish or emrakul). Teeg will force them to have more direct win pieces in hand when going off. Teeg won't get there by himself most likely, but if we can get Teeg + Canonist and then sandbag a pridemage then we're golden - probably.

I was talking to a friend of mine regarding D&T or Maverick. I've been playing D&T lately but was thinking that Maverick has an advantage vs. Omni because of Teeg + Pridemage + discard out of the board. The thing, though, is that it feels like Maverick is giving up edges in nearly all other relevant matchups, not least against Miracles where D&T just feels infinitely stronger.