How much Spot Removal?

[AngryTroll]

How much spot removal do you typically run in your multiplayer EDH decks? Especially without the ability to tuck troublesome commanders, how much spot removal is enough?

I really hate letting anyone draw with Consecrated Sphinx (the card I like least in all of EDH), or do most of the things involving Deadeye Navigator or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and I love blowing up Mana Flare after getting a boost but before my opponent can use it for his (or her) own nefarious purposes.

Of course, cards like Reclamation Sage or Acidic Slime and Shriekmaw or Bone Shredder are easy to slot into a deck, and I always run a few sweepers to reset the board.

If I'm in green I almost always pack a Krosan Grip, and in white I almost always run a Swords to Plowshares. After those two, are there any instant-speed one-for-ones that always make it into your deck?

[Megadeus]

Beast Within seems like a fine catch all.

[TsumiBand]

If there is some way to potentially 2-for-1 or at least get something modal out of it, I am definitely prone to running it. Cards like Mortify or Wear // Tear, etc. Also if it hits a ton of shit - not just creatures or just enchantments or whatever, like Vindicate, Utter End, Oblivion Ring and/or Detention Sphere and things like that which can deal with a generic permanent or has just one modifier on it like "noncreature" or "nonland" or whatever; they transcend the modal thing in a big way, so they are pretty viable IMHO inasmuch as 1-for-1s are concerned.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No matter if Aura Shards is considered spot removal, I definitely play Return to Dust in case someone hushwing or torpororbs my creatures while simultaneously switching off the named Shards.
StP is a golden classic, of course.

[Davran]

I don't really have some sort of hard and fast guideline, I tend to run whatever I feel like "enough" is. That said, I try to keep my removal as generic as possible. Beast Within, Utter End, Chaos Warp...stuff like that. I'll happily pay an extra mana or two if the spell will drop whatever I just blew up into exile, too.

Removing commanders is another thing entirely given the recent rules change. If you've got a problem to solve there, take a look at Darksteel Mutation, Song of the Dryads, Declaration of Naught, and even Nevermore. That said, I'm of the live and let live philosophy when it comes to this format, so it's pretty rare for me to actually lock someone off of their commander. Accordingly, I'll only run one or maybe two ways to actually lock out a general in case someone shows up with a particularly douchy deck.

[Baumeister]

I've found that it really depends on what your deck is trying to do. For example, Godo will generally be trying to run up general damage on the opponent so it's more important to run removal that clears out blockers. Cards like Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods, and Aftershock are usually just enough early-game to get the job done.

In decks like Azusa where you are the aggro, the best solution to a problematic permanent can be to kill the person with that permanent. It's still probably a good idea to run premium removal spells like Beast Within, but most of the removal in decks like that needs to also be a threat. Bane of Progress and Terastodon are good examples.

There are decks that need to survive to the mid- and late-game stages, though, and those need more spots dedicated to removal. My Brion Stoutarm deck not only packs standalone removal spells like Return to Dust and Chaos Warp, but it also incorporates a Sunforger package and Mistveil Plains to reuse those spells when necessary. I got into a situation with this deck (it's extremely casual) where some dingbat tried to pop Nevinyrral's Disk with Darksteel Forge and Mycosynth Lattice on the table. The best response was simply to Sneak Attack Serra Avatar into play fling it at the offending player for lethal.

Basically, the faster you are, the less removal you need. There are obviously exceptions, but it's a good guideline.

[AngryTroll]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I usually play almost no instant-speed removal, instead running comes-into-play creatures for all of my Disenchant and Terror effects, but in a single night I lost to Consecrated Sphinx, Kiki-Jiki combo, and Ashling + Basilisk Collar.

I've been working on a Sisters of Stone Death ramp/board-control deck that plans on going long, so it needs a bit more removal than I usually play. Sisters is replacing Jarad as commander, so I no longer neccessarily want all of my spells to be attached to a creature, and I can't simply fling Lord of Extinction at my opponents to solve problems. Jarad's big drawback as a Rock commander is that even if the Jarad player has no hand and no non-land permanents, the table should try to kill Jarad because a topdecked Lord of Extinction (or Regrowth, or Reanimate, or tutor, etc.) will end the game.

Underappreciated card finds of the week: Slaughter, Slice in Twain. I'm not sure if Slice in Twain is actually good enough, but I wasn't aware it existed before this week and I cast it happily last night. My opponent(s) read Slaughter and looked sad.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I usually play almost no instant-speed removal, instead running comes-into-play creatures for all of my Disenchant and Terror effects...
The first time I was locked under Torpor Orb, I realized that it's not reasonable to rely solely on creatures. At least QPM works under Orb/Gryff, but I still find Return to Dust necessary.
I play Karametra, Goddess of Casual Table, so there's not too much space left for non-creatures, but I'd love to squeeze some more creature removal simply because I need to survive into lategame. And frankly, Luminate Primordial doesn't help in this task.
Also, there's something beautifully nostalgic in Reprisal, so...

[Mystical_Jackass]

This really probably depends on your meta too. If you play a casual Meta, just run a lot of removal and win the game, if competetive it gets a little more tricky. First, it's easier to run cantrips like Rending Vines over Repulse (unless casting on your own creatures, which many times is the right play). Why? Players play so many sac outlets these days, they'll commonly have 1-3 Lands, and maybe 1-2 Enchantments or Creatures on the battlefield. You have to be very careful when you're aiming your StP or Putrefy, 'cause most the time these days you'll end up hitting thin air... they'll sac it or Crystal Shard it back to their hand. This is why you need to "shut down their engines", aka use removal that can dismantle their decks ability to get around everything, THEN you can finally start taking their creatures apart.


Lets say a player has a Goblin Bombardment, Phyrexian Reclamation, and a High Market out. If you lack the tools to really deal with that, like you have no gy hate or disenchants right, it'd be almost kind of pointless to Swords any of their big creatures. Basically in order of priority you want the Reclamation dead so they can't keep looping, then the Bombardment, then eventually Waste or destroy the Land sac outlets. With that crap out of the way you can pretty much go to down with StP's, Utter Ends, Capsize, etc.

Long story short, people need to play more Land Destruction and Graveyard Hate in this meta for removal to make a stronger comeback, there's too many ways to ramp and too many easy sac outlets to get around removal. Currently I don't think running high removal is viable because of this, I used to run quite a bit but the Meta has changed to where it's better to just run less and drop more Bombs and tunnel your way to victory than play responsive to every broken God, Enchantment or Praetor someone plays.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Very well put, Mystical_Jackass!

Fortunately I don't really need to address those points, also because I stay away from competitive Magic, but the thing i already noticed is that a small amount of LD, disenchants and generic hate (except that not exactly Torpor Orb) is fine and necessary. Even during the casual games I play, it's fairly easy to realize that the creatures become immense trouble once they are supported either by engine or some recuring stuff (be it through graveyard or Erratic Portal and co.), so it's the engine that you need to stop, not the myriad of random 1/1s and x/2s whose only goal is to etb before rfg.

[Tvox]

When it comes to removal I typically run ~14 cards dedicated to removing pesky permanents. Generally, there's about 8-10 creature removals and the rest are made out of artifact- and/or other sorts of removal (I mainly play non-green/white so not too much enchantment hate over here).

It seems to work fine in my meta, now we seem to have moved away from massive creatures somewhat though, so it may be time for the WoG count to go down from the ~6-7 I run :tongue: ...