GP Kyoto Day 2 Meta breakdown, the future of Legacy?

[twndomn]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/day-2-metagame-breakdown-2015-04-18

Day 1 is composed of almost 2,000 players.

Day 2 is 222.

DELVER DECKS (57)
Temur Delver - 16
Grixis Delver - 14
Sultai Delver - 14
U/R Delver - 10
Esper Delver - 3

OMNITELL - 39

MIRACLES - 18

ELVES - 16

STONEFORGE MYSTIC DECKS (15)
Jeskai Stoneforge - 3
Esper Stoneblade - 12

Merfolk - 9
Ad Nauseam Storm - 7
Death and Taxes - 7
Dredge - 6
Mono-Brown - 5
Affinity - 5
Reanimator - 5
Other - 33

Top 8 list: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/top-8-decklists-2015-04-19

Take-away:

1. Omni-tell completely overtakes Sneak and Show.
2. Where did all the Shardless BUG/BUG Control go? Fail to make day 2?
3. Legacy Affinity?
4. Merfolk is blue, hence it's never dead dead.

[somethingdotdotdot]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/day-2-metagame-breakdown-2015-04-18

Day 1 is composed of almost 2,000 players.

Day 2 is 222.

DELVER DECKS (57)
Temur Delver - 16
Grixis Delver - 14
Sultai Delver - 14
U/R Delver - 10
Esper Delver - 3

OMNITELL - 39

MIRACLES - 18

ELVES - 16

STONEFORGE MYSTIC DECKS (15)
Jeskai Stoneforge - 3
Esper Stoneblade - 12

Merfolk - 9
Ad Nauseam Storm - 7
Death and Taxes - 7
Dredge - 6
Mono-Brown - 5
Affinity - 5
Reanimator - 5
Other - 33


Take-away:

1. Omni-tell completely overtakes Sneak and Show.
2. Where did all the Shardless BUG/BUG Control go? Fail to make day 2?
3. Legacy Affinity?
4. Merfolk is blue, hence it's never dead dead.

From the website: "Some players opted to go with versions with Sneak Attack and Griselbrand--a deck that was once dubbed "Sneak and Show"--while some players wanted access to another card like Omniscience and played Dream Halls. Regardless of the details, one thing is clear: let Show and Tell resolve and the game will be over in a few turns." They lumped all of the show and tell decks into the omni category.

[twndomn]

From the website: "Some players opted to go with versions with Sneak Attack and Griselbrand--a deck that was once dubbed "Sneak and Show"--while some players wanted access to another card like Omniscience and played Dream Halls. Regardless of the details, one thing is clear: let Show and Tell resolve and the game will be over in a few turns." They lumped all of the show and tell decks into the omni category.

If you watch all the feature matches on niconico, it's all Omnitell, except maybe round 1 or 2.

[Quasim0ff]

What the fuck is the Grixis Delver lists, and why are they so dominant compared to (not rug/bug) delver variants?

Why isn't there ANY UWR Delver? That seems... unexpected.

Grixis is just UR with tasigur and potential hand disruption from the board, to beat Omnitell, or?

[Namida]

What the fuck is the Grixis Delver lists, and why are they so dominant compared to (not rug/bug) delver variants?

Why isn't there ANY UWR Delver? That seems... unexpected.

I've literally played against more Grixis Delver than any other variant in Japan since Pyromancer was printed, even before Treasure Cruise was printed. People here just like the deck, so it might literally just be that most people are choosing the deck over RUG and BUG.

[snorlaxcom]

I'm taking all these results with a couple grains of salt. Just a different meta, like the European scene, and shouldn't be taken out of context as the state of American Legacy.

[Tokugawa]

Omnitell had already overtaked Sneakshow in MO and European lists for weeks. Only exception is SCG IQ, where it even doesn't look like a "dtb" at all.

[Barook]

I'm taking all these results with a couple grains of salt. Just a different meta, like the European scene, and shouldn't be taken out of context as the state of American Legacy.
32/32 Brainstorms in the Top 8. Different meta, same shit.

[HSCK]

32/32 Brainstorms in the Top 8. Different meta, same shit.

You mean doomsaying about Legacy, yeah, sounds the same every time.

[Chatto]

(...)
DELVER DECKS (57)
Temur Delver - 16
Grixis Delver - 14
Sultai Delver - 14
U/R Delver - 10
Esper Delver - 3

OMNITELL - 39

MIRACLES - 18

ELVES - 16

STONEFORGE MYSTIC DECKS (15)
Jeskai Stoneforge - 3
Esper Stoneblade - 12

Blue, right... Not that interesting, Blue is always big. Just a given fact: when you go to a big event, always remember to have some U-based hate in your 75.


Merfolk - 9
Ad Nauseam Storm - 7
Death and Taxes - 7
Dredge - 6
Mono-Brown - 5
Affinity - 5
Reanimator - 5
Other - 33

Now this indeed is interesting! The non-blue decks in particular... Shame I can't find some additional information: what does 'Other - 33' mean? Which decks are meant with 'Other'??

[twndomn]

That Omni-tell mirror Top 8 match between YASOOKA and HARANE, mind blown~!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/%20quarterfinals-shouta-yasooka-vs-kenta-harane-2015-04-19

[death]

That Omni-tell mirror Top 8 match between YASOOKA and HARANE, mind blown~!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/%20quarterfinals-shouta-yasooka-vs-kenta-harane-2015-04-19

Decks seem way more magicky and really less dumb to me than flip Delver land goyf.decs

[Dark Ritual]

There was a copy of rain of filth in the top 8 so clearly it needs a look next B&R announcement ;)

Oh no blue decks with brainstorm whatever will we do. It's like complaining about every fair white deck in existence running 4 swords to plowshares in the 75 same with lightning bolt. Lightning bolt has brainstorm like numbers in modern/banhammer the format and it hasn't been banned there so asking for brainstorm to be banned in legacy doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Dice_Box]

Welcome to Asia, yea, we play a bit different over here.

Also, Sucks to be a Lands player at that event... Shit.

[Barook]

Oh no blue decks with brainstorm whatever will we do. It's like complaining about every fair white deck in existence running 4 swords to plowshares in the 75 same with lightning bolt. Lightning bolt has brainstorm like numbers in modern/banhammer the format and it hasn't been banned there so asking for brainstorm to be banned in legacy doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Is that the new argument? Pulling fantasy numbers out of the place where the sun never shines? Get your facts straight:

- Bolt is run by ~40% of Paper decks and less than 50% of MODO decks in Modern
- Brainstorm is run by ~70% of Paper decks and ~75% of MODO decks in Legacy.

Sources: TCDecks, March 2015 + current metagame on MtGGoldfish

[Dice_Box]

Please take it to the ban thread. We don't need this shit everyfuckingwhere else guys. Some of us really do just want to talk about the event.

[HSCK]

Some of those variants are really interesting, like 4 Wastelands and Stifle in Stoneblade, Mentor Miracles with Daze.

[Chatto]

Does someone have a link to not only T8 decklists (those are easy to come by; click here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpkyo15/top-8-decklists-2015-04-19)), but maybe even T30 or even T100?

[EviL668-2]

Does anybody have the deck list of YOUSUKE MORINAGA? Mentor without white mana seams to be incorrect!

[testing32]

I thought the presence of Monastery Mentor was interesting. Before this event it hadn't made that large of splash.

OmniTell hasn't put up many results in the States. Since OmniTell was crushing this event, maybe that will change.

[Tokugawa]

Does anybody have the deck list of YOUSUKE MORINAGA? Mentor without white mana seams to be incorrect!

http://coverage.mtg-jp.com/gpkyo15/article/014842/

According to the report, the "Monastery mentor" in the list should be "Monastery swiftspear". Just some input mistake.

[Aggro_zombies]

Let's keep discussion of whether or not Brainstorm is the devil in the B&R Thread, okay? Quarantining that shit is what that thread is for.

[M+1]

This was the first Legacy GP in Japan, in all of Asia afaik, ever. Many of the participants might never have played with Brainstorm at a premier event like this, ever.
Can you really blame them for wanting to?

Also, that Omnitell mirror match in the semis. Epic.

[JDK]

Japanese REALLY like tentacles. :eek:

[Dice_Box]

Haha. That's gold.

[TheArchitect]

What the fuck is the Grixis Delver lists, and why are they so dominant compared to (not rug/bug) delver variants?

Why isn't there ANY UWR Delver? That seems... unexpected.

Grixis is just UR with tasigur and potential hand disruption from the board, to beat Omnitell, or?

Its not just a Japan thing, In the upstate NY area I have been playing against Grixis more than any other delver deck since young pyromancer was printed (except for the brief surge of UR during the treasure cruise era). I don't play MTGO but I've noticed grixis has been one of the top decks for a while now as well. How have people not seen this deck?

The lists vary, some have deathrite. Some are just UR with a splash for therapy and 1 ofs.

[Barook]

I don't play MTGO but I've noticed grixis has been one of the top decks for a while now as well. How have people not seen this deck?
I always assumed that was due to budget reasons since the bigger part of said Grixis Delver decks don't run Wasteland.

[sdematt]

Grixis plays a lot more like Treasure Cruise era UR than current era UWR or RUG. You want all your colours, and you're not on a Stifle-Waste gameplan. You're on value-town gameplan. I heard there was also a ton of Burn in the meta. Miracles/OmniTell seem like good choices in that case.

This would have also been a great tournament for Two Towers Nic Fit. Such Lightning Bolt can't beat Siege Rhino!

-Matt

[TheArchitect]

I always assumed that was due to budget reasons since the bigger part of said Grixis Delver decks don't run Wasteland.

I think of those lists are really more like UR delver thats splashing black for tasiger and SB stuff. Personally I think the ones with deathrite, stifle and wasteland are better but both are performing very well. It took people a REALLY long time to realize young pyromancer was good, so while a lot of grixis lists now just look like a post-TC ban evolutions of UR, grixis delver has actually been good for a long time.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm going to make a bold statement - I think these Japanese players are way ahead of the curve on Legacy tech and deckbuilding. The Japanese flavor of Delver decks feels lean, fast, and generally superior to the midrangy crap we try to jam into our Delver decks in the US. Also these OmniTell lists are the real deal, and I think Dig makes them outclass Sneak and Show by quite a bit. I think people would benefit from taking a close look at the Japanese Legacy decks and begin thinking outside the box a bit in deckbuilding.

[Barook]

I'm going to make a bold statement - I think these Japanese players are way ahead of the curve on Legacy tech and deckbuilding. The Japanese flavor of Delver decks feels lean, fast, and generally superior to the midrangy crap we try to jam into our Delver decks in the US. Also these OmniTell lists are the real deal, and I think Dig makes them outclass Sneak and Show by quite a bit. I think people would benefit from taking a close look at the Japanese Legacy decks and begin thinking outside the box a bit in deckbuilding.
The Japanese are well-known for running weird shit all the time. Those Omni lists are nothing special on MODO.

16 lands Delver is ballsy, though.

[Dice_Box]

I will agree to that. Feels more like revision and refinement and less like innovation.

[twndomn]

Japanese REALLY like tentacles. :eek:

You sir, have won the Internet. :laugh:

[MGB]

I think more than anything else - what is really relevant here, and what we really should be taking away from this event, is that every single deck in the top 8 (except for the RUG Delver deck and the ANT deck) played 2-4 Dig Through Time.

Dig Through Time might just be underplayed in Legacy for as powerful it has the potential to be.

[Dice_Box]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

[Barook]

I think more than anything else - what is really relevant here, and what we really should be taking away from this event, is that every single deck in the top 8 (except for the RUG Delver deck and the ANT deck) played 2-4 Dig Through Time.

Dig Through Time might just be underplayed in Legacy for as powerful it has the potential to be.
Well, is it that much worse than TC? While it costs :u::u: to cast and nets you one less cards, it digs deeper, increasing the chance to get cards you actually want, and it can be fired off at instant speed.

[btm10]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

Indeed. Though it's not like REB was ever bad. Something like that Jund list from Brazilian Nationals during the Cruise era would've rocked this Top 8, and I'm increasingly surprised that Jund isn't played more. Also, the fact that people are playing Sneak over Omni in the States is beyond me.

[nedleeds]

Because Jund has to mulligan, and can't unmulligan a bad hand with the cantrip cartel. Over a long event like a GP Kyoto or any GP really it's going to end up with enough awful keeps to incur a few losses, in addition to the other things that happen through the course of play (mistakes, losing the roll, bad matchup, flooding out). Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere would have also slaughtered this top 8 like lambs but good luck competing against cantrip.dec over ~15 rounds.

[btm10]

Because Jund has to mulligan, and can't unmulligan a bad hand with the cantrip cartel. Over a long event like a GP Kyoto or any GP really it's going to end up with enough awful keeps to incur a few losses, in addition to the other things that happen through the course of play (mistakes, losing the roll, bad matchup, flooding out). Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere would have also slaughtered this top 8 like lambs but good luck competing against cantrip.dec over ~15 rounds.

I chose Jund specifically because it can support variance reducers like Sylvan Library and Bob, and the Brazilian list in particular because it also had Top. None of these are as good as blue cantrips, but you probably don't need this at the full 8 cantrip base to win consistently. This is a discussion for another thread though.

[maharis]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Time to break out the REBs again".

I played against 10 maindeck REB effects in 4 rounds at eternal extravaganza. There's a reason volcanic island is the most expensive dual now.


Well, is it that much worse than TC? While it costs :u::u: to cast and nets you one less cards, it digs deeper, increasing the chance to get cards you actually want, and it can be fired off at instant speed.

I agree, the card is ridiculous.


I chose Jund specifically because it can support variance reducers like Sylvan Library and Bob, and the Brazilian list in particular because it also had Top. None of these are as good as blue cantrips, but you probably don't need this at the full 8 cantrip base to win consistently. This is a discussion for another thread though.

The Brazil list had Top because it was playing Chains of Mephistopheles.

Jund with MB REBs and extra library manipulation gives up a lot of percentage points that it usually has against Blade and Miracles decks, I believe.

[maharis]

Grixis plays a lot more like Treasure Cruise era UR than current era UWR or RUG. You want all your colours, and you're not on a Stifle-Waste gameplan. You're on value-town gameplan. I heard there was also a ton of Burn in the meta. Miracles/OmniTell seem like good choices in that case.

This would have also been a great tournament for Two Towers Nic Fit. Such Lightning Bolt can't beat Siege Rhino!

-Matt

In hindsight, packing a bunch of big lifegain beaters and then a bunch of Teegs and Safekeepers would've made a hilarious meta deck. Very light on BUG decks.

[btm10]

The Brazil list had Top because it was playing Chains of Mephistopheles.

Jund with MB REBs and extra library manipulation gives up a lot of percentage points that it usually has against Blade and Miracles decks, I believe.

Not running Chains just means you can split Top and Library. And Top+REB ia great with Liliana. I can't really imagine MD REB being bad against Miracles; at worst you're hitting an cantrip they're using to find a Top or an answer or set up a Miracle.

[Ellomdian]

I'm going to make a bold statement - I think these Japanese players are way ahead of the curve on Legacy tech and deckbuilding. The Japanese flavor of Delver decks feels lean, fast, and generally superior to the midrangy crap we try to jam into our Delver decks in the US. Also these OmniTell lists are the real deal, and I think Dig makes them outclass Sneak and Show by quite a bit. I think people would benefit from taking a close look at the Japanese Legacy decks and begin thinking outside the box a bit in deckbuilding.


Also, the fact that people are playing Sneak over Omni in the States is beyond me.

As per other discussions, the GP meta was hyper-aggro, Miracles, and Omni. Omni is way better when you aren't worried about a bunch of collateral damage from Delver decks maxing counterspells. SnS doesn't lean nearly as heavily on resolving Show, and has better SB diversity because you aren't fueling a wish-board. Omni is a strong vertical, tree branch approach. SnS is much simpler, but it goes much wider.

Based on the D1 media, I would make the bold statement that the Japanese meta really doesn't like Midrange, Value-oriented strategies. At all. And 7 DnT players on D2 is amusing - I am surprised not to see a bigger showing.

[(nameless one)]

I'm curious about the 5 "Mono Brown" that made day two. Does anyone have information on this?

[Megadeus]

Probably MUD decks. It's pretty well off in this meta I would think.

[Chatto]

Nobody wants to know what decks are meant with 'others'? Surely, I'm not the only one...

[Vicar in a tutu]

Nobody wants to know what decks are meant with 'others'? Surely, I'm not the only one...
33 burn decks...

[Spam]

33 burn decks...
32 burn decks and 1 Goblin deck (keep on the fight bro!)
OmniTell is such a powerful deck, and to me rightfully defines legacy: learn to play your cantrips and you will have almost no bad matchups, fail and you will lose to everything.

[JDK]

Fall to everything? The deck is way too forgiving for that.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm curious about the 5 "Mono Brown" that made day two. Does anyone have information on this?

Does anyone else think it's ironic that WotC refers to these decks as mono-brown...a decade after they ruined artifacts by making the frame silver?

[rufus]

Does anyone else think it's ironic that WotC refers to these decks as mono-brown...a decade after they ruined artifacts by making the frame silver?

Don't worry, they'll cobble together some cryptic clan name like "kotpuskarn" for that sooner or later.

[JDK]

Next time they will call it "Big Robots", don't worry. :wink:

[ubernostrum]

Don't worry, they'll cobble together some cryptic clan name like "kotpuskarn" for that sooner or later.

SCG will call it Bladeless Deathless Sultai-less Sultai Deathblade.

[Barook]

SCG will call it Bladeless Deathless Sultai-less Sultai Deathblade.
How about "Colorless Midrange Affinity"? Just throwing some Magic-related buzzwords together.

[rufus]

How about "Colorless Midrange Affinity"? Just throwing some Magic-related buzzwords together.

"Colorless" is way to sensible. They have to take things that are easy to understand like 'BUG' and replace them with previously meaningless noise like 'Sultai'.