Best hate vs. Omnitell?

[MGB]

So let's assume that you play in a metagame infested with Omnitell. As in, the majority of players are playing the deck due to its success in tournaments recently.

Let's say you're playing a white deck, possibly Death n Taxes but any white deck would do. What's the best hate in either white, or colorless, to combat Omnitell? My inclination is simply to play 4 Banishing Lights in the sideboard if I really want to beat it, but is this even the most effective option? They can Cunning Wish in response to the trigger, or they can Dig in response to the trigger. Is this the best option remaining for fighting this deck (alongside maindeck Thalias, of course)? Is there something else I'm missing that I can play if I just *really* want to beat this deck and don't care about torpedoing my sideboard for other matchups?

[Julian23]

The single best hate card vs OmniTell is Ethersworn Canonist. It doesn't win the game on the spot, but it makes all your other "hate" actually useful and allows you to still play a game post-Show and Tell.

[MGB]

The single best hate card vs OmniTell is Ethersworn Canonist. It doesn't win the game on the spot, but it makes all your other "hate" actually useful and allows you to still play a game post-Show and Tell.

Fair enough, and its useful vs. Storm and Elves as well. But this just buys you another turn... If you have to pass the turn with only this guy, then you probably still lose.

[Julian23]

No offense, but you should play a couple of games with the guy before arriving at such a preemptive conclusion. And by that I mean like 10-20 at least, which should all by itself take a couple of days.

You're not playing the game to "lock" OmniTell "out" with hate. That is a terrible approach as any combo deck eventually has inevitability. You're just playing to prolong the game long enough to win. With Canonist, suddenly all your Enchantment removal suddenly starts mattering, so does your additional attack step. You can often even beat an Emrakul swing if the game already went long enough and you have enough permanents. On top of that you're assessment of "probably still loose" once you have to pass the turn is incorrect. What are they supposed to do? The dream scenario involves Dig Through Time into Emrakul on your turn. OmniTell however only plays 2 Emrakul and as I mentioned above, there's even a chance you're still beating that; especially once Vial and Flickerwisp become involved.
Ethersworn Canonist suddenly gives you so much play where there previously was none.

[Esper3k]

Iona. Seriously, you just keep it in your hand and most of them just can't go off without using SnT.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Trinisphere is brutal vs. Omnitell, although in the context of white Canonist might just be better.

[Kuma]

Confusion in the Ranks

You're welcome.

[nedleeds]

Iona. Seriously, you just keep it in your hand and most of them just can't go off without using SnT.

+1 it's very satisfying naming blue.

[sdematt]

Slaughter Games. Winning on Turn 1. Not interacting.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Omni has a variety of answers to deal with everything.

Iona is probably the strongest to stop it. That 1 of Slaughter Pact isn't going to make a huge difference when Omni player can't find it.

Reanimator has a 80% win rate against Omni...just an FYI.

[phonics]

Iona. Seriously, you just keep it in your hand and most of them just can't go off without using SnT.

The look on their face when they realize they just killed themselves is worth it alone.

[Humphrey]

ashen rider
pretty narrow but it does the job against snt very well

[Julian23]

The beauty of OmniTell is that it has pretty big game vs Ashen Rider and friends; unlike Sneak Show.

Also, if you wanna go for a dedicated hate slot, Iona is superior in almost every way. Not that I recommend dedicated hate slots in the first place.

[KobeBryan]

ashen rider
pretty narrow but it does the job against snt very well

Omni laughs in the face of ashen rider.

[cheerios]

Arcane lab

Cheers

[Humphrey]

Omni laughs in the face of ashen rider.

it doesnt make your spells instants...

[Esper3k]

it doesnt make your spells instants...

What he's trying to say is that Omnitell (as opposed to Sneaky Show) is pretty good at killing their opponent with an ETB trigger on the stack (say O-Ring, Ashen Rider, etc) since most of its business spells are Instants.

[TheArchitect]

it doesnt make your spells instants...

All its spells that matter, besides Emrakul, are already instants. Stuff like Oring, Ashen Rider, Venser, etc are not enough vs the latest iterations of omnitell.

Meddling mage is a good card against them (naming wish or S&T depending on the exact game state).

[Tokugawa]

"Playing reanimator"

Well, that is not A card…creature-based hate work best against Omnitell. Pikula/canonist/Thalia are good, multiple on the battlefield are better.

[Koby]

"Playing reanimator"

Well, that is not A card…creature-based hate work best against Omnitell. Pikula/canonist/Thalia are good, multiple on the battlefield are better.

The more white hate bears the better. Until they play Massacre. :laugh:

[Tea]

All its spells that matter, besides Emrakul, are already instants. Stuff like Oring, Ashen Rider, Venser, etc are not enough vs the latest iterations of omnitell.

So if they put Omniscience into play through SnT and you put O-Ring/Venser/Ashen Rider into play, they can still win on instant speed (excluding Emrakul)? (sry for not understanding the rules).

If it isn't Venser, what is the best blue Omnitell-hate card?

[Julian23]

So if they put Omniscience into play through SnT and you put O-Ring/Venser/Ashen Rider into play, they can still win on instant speed (excluding Emrakul)? (sry for not understanding the rules).

Yes. They either just Trickbind your triggered ability with Cunning Wish (found via DTT, Impulse, Brainstorm etc.) or might even be able to just kill you with Entreat the Ants. Cunning Wish finds Firemind's Foresight, which in turn finds Brainstorm, Impulse and another Wish. The second wish finds Entreat the Ants while Impulse + Brainstorm probably put something pretty expensive on top.

[decan]

Excuse me. Entreat the Ants? :eek:

[Julian23]

Retreat the Ants, whatever :tongue:

[GoblinZ]

If you really want to hate out omnitel, just play Grixis Delver.

[Baum]

If you really want to hate out omnitel, just play Grixis Delver.

Yep, Delver and Pyromancer backed up by Probe/Therapy are disgusting to play against.

[GenghisTom]

I have to agree Ethersworn Canonist is the best non-dedicated hate.
Admittedly, it works best in decks that run discard and/or an early clock and as Julian mentioned, it slows down the game giving you time to kill them or search for disenchant effects.
If you're running discard, then chances are, by the time they cast a Show and Tell for Omniscience, they will have very few cards left in their hand to 'go off'; sometimes none. Meaning, they have little options in their route while you're beating face.
Best strategy is to hold Canonist in your hand and wait for them to cast Show and Tell. If you cast Canonist early then they will just go for the Emurakul plan instead. This doesn't work so well if they're running discard of their own, however.
I played against a UB Omnishow deck Monday that ran Thoughtseize and Lim-Dûl's Vault which is very good against the discard plan as they can pluck your hate before going off, and cast vault in response to your discard and hide their piece(s) on top of their library. This can hurt their life total a bit which is why having a decent clock is essential for beating Omnishow decks.

Just my thoughts. I plan on running Canonist in the board next week for sure - good against Storm and Elves which is why it's preferable to Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Confusion in the Ranks suffers the same trigger problems as Ashen Rider - albeit much cuter if it's able to get there.

[ESG]

Retreat the Ants, whatever :tongue:

Ants never retreat.

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[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Gaddok Teeg, Trinisphere, Meddling Mage, or Liliana of the Veil.

[amalek0]

Today at the open I saw a lot of omnitell players get DESTROYED by trinisphere. It not only locks them out of seriously winning when they cast the show and tell, it's also eminently castable on its own, unlike Iona.

The other cards that caused them a lot of trouble were rule of law, ensnaring bridge, and (surprise surprise) slaughter-games effects of various types.

[Tea]

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is actually a valid choice, if you're not into white. He completely turns off counterspells while being a bomb against shardless BUG blanking Ancestral vision, Shardless agent and FoW.

[iamajellydonut]

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is actually a valid choice, if you're not into white. He completely turns off counterspells while being a bomb against shardless BUG blanking Ancestral vision, Shardless agent and FoW.

Except that Teferi is 5cc and, other than blanking their counterspells, does absolutely nothing to prevent them from winning the game.

[Kanti]

I've been messing around with High Tide again after dropping NicFit and have been sbing +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendillion Clique, +2 Surgical Extraction, with 3 CWishes to access another SE, which leaves me at 4 Flusterstorms in the main-deck in g2 and g3 with 4 Snapcaster Mages main-deck. The problem with the match-up is that most decks are wildly unfavored g1, and the hate packages they can bring in don't make their g2's and g3's hard enough.

In other words the best hate against Omnitell isn't a specific group of cards, but rather a specific deck. There isn't a Leyline of the Void equivalent to this match-up, so you're gonna have to beat it by playing a better pile of 75.

[btm10]

In the Eye of Chaos is by far the most hilarious and effective. It works best out of a deck like Shardless that wants to use non-Instants to interact. It's pretty bad if you're relying on counterspells and Dig.

[Kanti]

Ooh, that looks saucy. A truckload of counterspells only go so far against Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Defense Grid.

[ryO!]

or you could just play mana maze.

[Kanti]

Mana Maze lets them go CWish>ECall>Emrakul though the very next turn, where Canonist buys you an extra two turns, as they have to go CWish>pass>ECall>pass>Emrakul.

Edit: Not even, as they just ECall during the opponent's turn. So SnT>Omni>pass>CWish>pass>oppsturnECall>Emrakul.

[ryO!]

Mana Maze lets them go CWish>ECall>Emrakul though the very next turn, where Canonist buys you an extra two turns, as they have to go CWish>pass>ECall>pass>Emrakul.

Edit: Not even, as they just ECall during the opponent's turn. So SnT>Omni>pass>CWish>pass>oppsturnECall>Emrakul.

i haven't said it was better, but it still buys you time to destroy omni or just gives you one more turn to swing, which, in legacy, often mean enough to win the game.

[Valtrix]

One of the reasons Omnishow is so strong is that you can't stop all of their options with a single card, outside of countering/preventing the show and tell itself. If they get an omniscience out, cunning wish (and dig through time to find it) can let them win through anything with ETB triggers that you try to use against them. If you aim to stop the omniscience (a la confusion in the ranks for example), they can still win by just putting an Emrakul into play.

[iamajellydonut]

If you aim to stop the omniscience (a la confusion in the ranks for example), they can still win by just putting an Emrakul into play.

This falls under the same category of "win through ETB triggers".

Anyway, you say that there's no single card you can hate out, and then immediately follow it up by stating the single card that you can hate out. Force of Will. Surgical Extraction. Counterbalance floating something 3cc. Tier 2 options of Slaughter Games and Iona. All of those shit on Show and Tell and completely prevent them from winning. Then there's things that deal with Omniscience like Thalia.

But of course it's hard to hate out. What combo deck isn't hard to hate out? There's a reason why people play OmniShow and ANT and Elves instead of shit like Belcher.

[Valtrix]

Anyway, you say that there's no single card you can hate out, and then immediately follow it up by stating the single card that you can hate out.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said you can't play a single card to hate their whole strategy out (except counterspells of course, but this always goes without saying), not that you can't target a specific card of theirs to hate out.

[iamajellydonut]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said you can't play a single card to hate their whole strategy out (except counterspells of course, but this always goes without saying), not that you can't target a specific card of theirs to hate out.

Fair enough, but I still don't see how this makes OmniShow so unique. Again, you can't play a single card against Elves or ANT and expect it to win the war.

[Kanti]

This falls under the same category of "win through ETB triggers".

Anyway, you say that there's no single card you can hate out, and then immediately follow it up by stating the single card that you can hate out. Force of Will. Surgical Extraction. Counterbalance floating something 3cc. Tier 2 options of Slaughter Games and Iona. All of those shit on Show and Tell and completely prevent them from winning. Then there's things that deal with Omniscience like Thalia.

But of course it's hard to hate out. What combo deck isn't hard to hate out? There's a reason why people play OmniShow and ANT and Elves instead of shit like Belcher.

It definately is harder to hate out than ANT or Elves, and I think that's the issue. There's nothing wrong with being the best, but damn have I found Omnitell to be extremely strong, to the point that it's made me a little bitter when I pick up TES or High Tide and think how I could just be jamming an A+B combo.

Going 1-for-1 with counters against a deck running DTT is going to end up terribly for you, especially if you used a FoW along the way. They SnT, you counter it, then they cast DTT and do it all over again. Or they have the combo in hand but no protection and cast DTT, obviously fetching some combination of Force+Flusterstorm. You can Force the DTT, but now leave yourself open to the eventual SnT. This is opposed to the feeling you get when you manage to counter a tutor after your opponent has cracked LED and Mind Twisted himself. In that situation you pretty much just win, whereas against Omni you've got 1 part of their A+B combo out of their hand. Counters really shoudn't count as a form of "hate", and I don't consider them as such, unless they are being used as narrow answers from the sb like Mindbreak Trap or Envelop. I would constitute those as hate, as you are bringing them in to "hate" on specific decks. FoW is just a general a general utility spell.

Surgical Extraction is great, but only when paired with counters/discard. For decks not running discard it get's a lot worse, as you have to wait for them to cast a Show and Tell and counter it before you get a chance to Extract it, and by that time they can protect their graveyard with DTT. Extracting DTT is a good option, and one that I've taken before to great effect, but it doesn't stop your opponent as he can still just search up a Cunning Wish and get you. Extracting CWish is obviously hard, and you could still get chained DTT>Emrakul.

Counterbalance is the best option as it's actually a lock, and you are running auxilliary counterspells. This for me isn't an example of one card beating the deck, but rather the pile of 75. I do agree though that in any deck that could support it a resolved CBalance is probably the most problematic for SnT, but what combo deck coudn't you say that about? And 3cc is a lot harder to find that 2cc (BWish, Infernal Tutor).

If I resolve a Rule of Law against ANT and they don't deal with it, well I win. Not the case against Omnitell. I also feel like Thalia/Sphere effects are stronger against Storm as they prevent you from generating storm, whereas in Omnitell you just have to pass the turn and untap and pay the Thalia tax 3-4 times so you can get a Wish, fetch the ECall, and win with Emrakul. Elves is crippled by a lot of other things too, common combo hate cards like Chalice of the Void, or creature-horde hate like Electrickery or Deed, that just don't touch effect Omnitell. Omnitell is just a bitch of a deck.

[ScottW]

What about Krosan Grip?

Question: would you have priority to Krosan Grip the Omniscience after it was played with Show and Tell - obviously before they start going off or cast a 15/15? What would you say - "upon resolution"?

[sjmcc13]

Question: would you have priority to Krosan Grip the Omniscience after it was played with Show and Tell - obviously before they start going off or cast a 15/15? What would you say - "upon resolution"? If something triggered by the resolution of S&T. If nothing triggers, then they get priority, and can start comboing off/cast Emrakul. Grip might be able to interrupt this, and it might just buy you a turn.
If something triggers, and they do not have a trickbind in hand then you will get priority at least once before they can cast a non-instant.

[KobeBryan]

What about Krosan Grip?

Question: would you have priority to Krosan Grip the Omniscience after it was played with Show and Tell - obviously before they start going off or cast a 15/15? What would you say - "upon resolution"?

Not the best

If he shows Omni,

He will retain priority if nothing is on the stack. If he proceeds ot play something like cunning wish, you will get priority for Grip.

However, if Omni resolves, and nothing is on the stack at that point, he will retain priorty and have his emmy.

[porcupinetreeman]

I've had luck beating it with MUD lately, been running 4 Trinisphere and 4 Lodestone Main, plus 4 Thorn and 2 Spine SB.

[ScottW]

@sjmcc13 & KobeBryan
Thanks. I always get confused with questions related to priority.

[ironclad8690]

The most important things you can have access to are Thalia, Mother of Runes, and post-board Ethersworn Canonist (however in the online meta this guy is becoming maindeckable). Gaddock Teeg and or Cavern of Souls help, but are by no means necessary. Aether Vial helps your important dudes not get countered. Sword of Fire and Ice is great at protecting your dudes from bounce as well as pressuring their life total. Port + Thalia can actually go a good distance in many games.

[Fatal]

Teeg isn't so great vs Omni it does stop only DTT, all wincon routes are available under it. SoFI isn't great since under cunning wish they have slaughter pact which is black. Best hatebear here is still a Ethersworn Canonist connected with enchantment removal.