SCG Legacy Open at Worcester.

[owerbart]

Hi. Sorry if this isn't the right subforum, but maybe we could have a nice thread to discuss the stream and give our opinions on the matches.

Is there an estimated amount of participants? I'm hoping after 3 months without a Legacy main event numbers are huge.

What are your thoughts? :) I just want to see this format get more and more attention

[twndomn]

Hi. Sorry if this isn't the right subforum, but maybe we could have a nice thread to discuss the stream and give our opinions on the matches.

Is there an estimated amount of participants? I'm hoping after 3 months without a Legacy main event numbers are huge.

What are your thoughts? :) I just want to see this format get more and more attention

Lossett's round 3 opponent is So~~ bad, trying to counter Cavern-Venser, missing DC trigger.

[Richard Cheese]

Is it the camera angle or does Nick Miller have GIGANTIC hands?

[Julian23]

Wonder whether someone is trolling their judge team. In the last 10 minutes, we've had announcements for "Steven BURN" and "Liliana Terrova" (or something) to come to the judge station.

[amalek0]

Wonder whether someone is trolling their judge team. In the last 10 minutes, we've had announcements for "Steven BURN" and "Liliana Terrova" (or something) to come to the judge station.

No, we weren't trolling, we literally had to call those people up >.<


Our Favorite Oarsman's last match was apparently a super close and super awesome match--I chatted with him about it on the way out the door and he was literally like, bubbly about it. Believe it or not, he nearly lost to BOMBERMAN. Win-and-in round for day two, so we definitely won't see it on stream tomorrow, but BOMBERMAN! Almost made the cut.

There's at least three or four RG/RUG lands players who put up good results on day one, I birded their matches pretty hard today.

There was a LOT of omnitell at the middle tables.

The Most interesting judge question I had come up was what the converted mana cost of wear//tear is when FUSED ON THE STACK. This in a miracles mirror. It literally took three of us judges going "I think it's three" before we (correctly) ruled it as three. Who the hell casts wear/tear FUSED in a miracles mirror?

If anybody wants me to find someone's decklist in particular, I am on deck-checks team tomorrow and can go check during my lunch break.

[Ellomdian]

Lands, 9-0, and 8-1.

Tomorrow is going to be fun to watch.

[Dice_Box]

lands, 9-0, and 8-1.

Tomorrow is going to be fun to watch.

fuck yes!

[CabalTherapy]

fuck yes!

Why the hell do they show Lossett against Fabiano? 6-2-1? C'mon SCG. :eek:

[Bane of the Living]

I went 1-4 drop with welder mud. Definitely wish I chose a different deck.

Lots of Miracles, D&T, and Omnitell. Some elves.

Lands should role this.

[Dice_Box]

Lands should role this.

Omin is not fun and Miracles is not your all time greats match but anything playing fair is breakfast. I hope Long goes the distance, I would be happy to add a new videos to the primer.

[Chatto]

Omin is not fun and Miracles is not your all time greats match but anything playing fair is breakfast. I hope Long goes the distance, I would be happy to add a new videos to the primer.

I hope it is a MU against Omnitell and/ or Miracles.

[Dice_Box]

I hope it is a MU against Omnitell and/ or Miracles.

No, it's a MIRROR!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Lands best deck ever.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, I know we say that the commentary is shit at times, but these two have never played this mirror before and are talking out of their ass's.

[Chatto]

No, it's a MIRROR!

Ooh wauw! Fine by me :laugh: Looking forward to it!

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Ok, I know we say that the commentary is shit at times, but these two have never played this mirror before and are talking out of their ass's.I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that there aren't any commentators that have played the RG Lands mirror. I'm surprised they even let it on camera.

[wizard_of_gore]

Which idiot puts lands mirror on camera? ??????

:mad::mad::mad:


The most boring match ever....

[Dice_Box]

Which idiot puts lands mirror on camera? ??????

:mad::mad::mad:


The most boring match ever....

It's the number one table. Also best choice ever.

*Totally not biased.*

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It did finish quicker than any miracles match so far...

[Chatto]

Which idiot puts lands mirror on camera? ??????

:mad::mad::mad:


The most boring match ever....

Says the white/ blue control lover :laugh:

[Quasim0ff]

The Most interesting judge question I had come up was what the converted mana cost of wear//tear is when FUSED ON THE STACK. This in a miracles mirror. It literally took three of us judges going "I think it's three" before we (correctly) ruled it as three. Who the hell casts wear/tear FUSED in a miracles mirror? .


Well, it happens. 1 drop on stack, flip top, in response Wear // Tear your top and balance? :D

[wizard_of_gore]

Well, it happens. 1 drop on stack, flip top, in response Wear // Tear your top and balance? :D

It's no point in wear / tear against miracles. It's shame that judges doesn't know their basic job... Even 3 of them came to conclusion it costs 3 on stack!!!! WOW. Actually, they are working for SCG?

[Julian23]

Maybe you should check your facts because making a fool out of yourself. Wear // Tear fused has a converted mana cost of 3 on the stack.

Making a mistake is ok. But doing this whole OMG WOW WTF thing is what turns someone who makes a mistake into a douche.

708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack and wasn't cast using fuse (see rule 702.101, "Fuse"), only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half's characteristics are treated as though they didn't exist. A split card that's a spell on the stack and was cast using fuse has two sets of characteristics and one converted mana cost. Its converted mana cost is equal to the total amount of mana in its two mana costs, regardless of color.

[Lemnear]

It's no point in wear / tear against miracles.

Please what? Presenting a hard-to-counter 3cc Spell to get SDT+Counterbalance off the table in the Ponder-Miracles-Mirror is gamebreaking!

[wizard_of_gore]

Maybe you should check your facts because making a fool out of yourself. Wear // Tear fused has a converted mana cost of 3 on the stack.

Making a mistake is ok. But doing this whole OMG WOW WTF thing is what turns someone who makes a mistake into a douche.

708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack and wasn't cast using fuse (see rule 702.101, "Fuse"), only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half's characteristics are treated as though they didn't exist. A split card that's a spell on the stack and was cast using fuse has two sets of characteristics and one converted mana cost. Its converted mana cost is equal to the total amount of mana in its two mana costs, regardless of color.



Yes, Julian. I know, Wear / tear has 3 cmc on stack when is fused. The fact is - the SCG judges doesn't know that (well, some of them). And they are suppose to know that, because they are JUDGES. They are not some local judges, they work for prestige company, and they are judging on competetive expensive tournament.

and yes, Lemnear@, i agree, wear tear on cb and top is great. I didn't denied that....

cheers! <3

:*

[Bahra]

Omin is not fun and Miracles is not your all time greats match but anything playing fair is breakfast. I hope Long goes the distance, I would be happy to add a new videos to the primer.

You hope David Long goes the distance? I played against him at the open I attended, and was really not impressed. He could've easily won game 1 against me in several different ways and instead he just chose to durdle around and eventually lose.

He plays lands exclusively it seems but he does not play it well.

[Dice_Box]

You hope David Long goes the distance? I played against him at the open I attended, and was really not impressed. He could've easily won game 1 against me in several different ways and instead he just chose to durdle around and eventually lose.

He plays lands exclusively it seems but he does not play it well.

Well he is in the top place, so... Oh and he is locked. Guess he is not very good.

[Bahra]

Well he is in the top place, so... Oh and he is locked. Guess he is not very good.

Why are you getting defensive? I'm just saying it like it is. Are you saying that everyone who ever got a top 8 played 100% optimally?

[Ingo]

Why are you getting defensive? I'm just saying it like it is. Are you saying that everyone who ever got a top 8 played 100% optimally?

Hubris ... David Long has taken way more top 8ths in mayor events than you have, Marc.
So cut the crap plz.

[Bahra]

Hubris ... David Long has taken may more top 8ths in mayor events than you have, Marc.
So cut the crap plz.

So what? I've played what? 5 big events ever and I won 2 of them and placed 27th at GP Antwerp. I can't talk about the play skill of someone because he has played more events than me? What kind of crap is that?

[ubernostrum]

Yes, Julian. I know, Wear / tear has 3 cmc on stack when is fused. The fact is - the SCG judges doesn't know that (well, some of them). And they are suppose to know that, because they are JUDGES. They are not some local judges, they work for prestige company, and they are judging on competetive expensive tournament.

First of all: I've been Head Judge of seven Opens now. I am not nor have I ever been an employee of SCG (nor am I an employee of WotC, as many people seem to think happens at higher levels -- my day job is a software company, and one of the L5s is a co-worker of mine). SCG sends a small crew of 6-8 of their admin staff, and judging spots are applied for through a website that coordinates judge selection for events worldwide, including everything from PPTQs up to the Pro Tour itself.

And most of the judge staff is drawn from the local judge community where the Open is being held. To take an example, last weekend I (coming from Kansas) was the Head Judge of the DFW Open. I had a staff of 29 judges working under me. 24 of them were from Texas. Of the other five, two were from Oklahoma and one from Arkansas. The people who traveled the furthest were me one of the other L3s (Florida) and one of the L2s (Washington state, he likes to travel apparently).

And second: just as with players, among judges Legacy is something of a specialization, as is being a hardcore rules geek. Yes, we expect any judge to be able to get the right ruling, but we don't expect them to know every interaction cold off the top of their head (I know some L3+ judges who've had to look up some of the specifics of split-card characteristics, for example). We encourage judges to consult with each other and even to carry copies of the Comprehensive Rules on their phones -- I do that, so there should be no shame in an L1 or L2 doing it -- to look up and verify things when there's doubt.

This weekend, the Head Judge for Worcester is an L3 who knows his way around Legacy; in fact, I know he's got a Legacy Open top 8 under his belt.

I'm currently debating whether I want to try to snag the HJ spot for the Legacy Open later this year in St. Louis, or just play in it.

[Ingo]

So what? I've played what? 5 big events ever and I won 2 of them and placed 27th at GP Antwerp. I can't talk about the play skill of someone because he has played more events than me? What kind of crap is that?

Lolz. Hubris, you might want to look it up in the dictionnary.

[Bahra]

Lolz. Hubris, you might want to look it up in the dictionnary.

Might want to look dictionary up in the dictionary. What's your problem? I'm just asking the question why anyone would root for someone who is not good. And he's not even known outside the open circuit. I have nothing against David Long he seems like a cool dude, I'm just innocently wondering why people would root for someone who's (to me) pretty unknown and not skillful with his deck of choice.

[ubernostrum]

Why the hell do they show Lossett against Fabiano? 6-2-1? C'mon SCG. :eek:

They're both well-known popular players. That's why they get feature matches when they're doing well enough to be in contention.

(and though I like Joe a lot, I've been messing around with some of Gerard's BUG lists with Counterbalance, and kinda wish that match had been a better example of how it plays out)

[Dice_Box]

Might want to look dictionary up in the dictionary. What's your problem? I'm just asking the question why anyone would root for someone who is not good. And he's not even known outside the open circuit. I have nothing against David Long he seems like a cool dude, I'm just innocently wondering why people would root for someone who's (to me) pretty unknown and not skillful with his deck of choice.

Because he is far from unknown and is very skilled with the deck. I love the idea that we can judge all players on one game they may have played. This seems fair and just. Did you ever have a bad game? Can I say you're a shitty player on that one game?

[Bahra]

Because he is far from unknown and is very skilled with the deck. I love the idea that we can judge all players on one game they may have played. This seems fair and just. Did you ever have a bad game? Can I say you're a shitty player on that one game?

Well it was a 50 minute game played completely wrong, and I played 2 matches against him in that open but fair enough, I supposed he could've had a bad game/day. And he did still top 8.

I'll shut up about the subject now.

[CabalTherapy]

Well, at the end of round 14 we have:

1 Jessup, Andrew 36 66.6667% Elves
2 Derczo, Michael 36 62.8071% DnT
3 Long, David 36 60.3175% Lands


What has happened to Brainstorm? xD

[Rivfader]

I have nothing against David Long he seems like a cool dude, I'm just innocently wondering why people would root for someone who's (to me) pretty unknown and not skillful with his deck of choice.

As far as I know, David Long Top 8-ed every SCG event he participated in, of which 4 in the last 5 months.
That's pretty impressive, and in this context, 'not skillful with his deck of choice' , is a bit off.

[Bahra]

As far as I know, David Long Top 8-ed every SCG event he participated in, of which 4 in the last 5 months.
That's pretty impressive, and in this context, 'not skillful with his deck of choice' , is a bit off.

That's impressive for sure. I must be wrong.

[LOLWut]

It's no point in wear / tear against miracles. It's shame that judges doesn't know their basic job... Even 3 of them came to conclusion it costs 3 on stack!!!! WOW. Actually, they are working for SCG?

Yes, Julian. I know, Wear / tear has 3 cmc on stack when is fused. The fact is - the SCG judges doesn't know that (well, some of them). And they are suppose to know that, because they are JUDGES. They are not some local judges, they work for prestige company, and they are judging on competetive expensive tournament.

and yes, Lemnear@, i agree, wear tear on cb and top is great. I didn't denied that....

cheers! <3

:*

It's not the crime that'll get you; it's the coverup.

[MGB]

Lands really is an underrated deck. It was a powerful control deck even before it got the Dark Depths combo, but with the combo it's basically a control-combo deck that has 70%+ matchups against every fair deck, and can out-combo other combo decks occasionally, and gets to bring in a full sideboard of hate vs. other combo.

Lands might actually be the best deck in the format, and the only thing holding it back is a lack of skilled pilots who actually have the ability to play it and who actually own the expensive cards that comprise the deck.

[Dice_Box]

Lands really is an underrated deck. It was a powerful control deck even before it got the Dark Depths combo, but with the combo it's basically a control-combo deck that has 70%+ matchups against every fair deck, and can out-combo other combo decks occasionally, and gets to bring in a full sideboard of hate vs. other combo.

Lands might actually be the best deck in the format, and the only thing holding it back is a lack of skilled pilots who actually have the ability to play it and who actually own the expensive cards that comprise the deck.

Given how easily we fold to anything running non Blue Storm cards I do not think we are the "Best" but I do agree that if Tabernacle was not a grand we would see more people join us.

[Julian23]

Combo Lands always looks so sad when it doesn't have Exploration in the opener... :frown:

[goblinsplayer]

7 Miracles decks in the top 32 at SCG Worcester. (Including me) :D

[Julian23]

You are the 22%!

[Einherjer]

4x 4 Ponder
1x 2 Ponder
2x Legendary

Looks like a fair distribution.

Greetings

[Chatto]

Combo Lands always looks so sad when it doesn't have Exploration in the opener... :frown:

Nah, only slower :smile:

[Rivfader]

Gotta love how that one-off choke was just a game-ender for Lands versus 2xmeddling mage, 2x RIP and 2x Bloodmoon. ELves is up for Lands now, but despite what the commentators say, that's quite in Lands favor in my opinion.

[Julian23]

Both Elves and Lands have draws that the other can't reaslistically beat. When both have them at the same time, it's very much up to the draw, but slightly in favor of Lands. Going turn1 PFire on the play after Exploration, into e.g. Port is almost unwinable for Elves. #MagicalChristmasLand

[TheArchitect]

I didnt make day 2, and I made lots of little mistakes that cost me games. But In the 9 rounds of day 1, I played against 5 decks with cavern of souls. I was not ready for that and I can see why the list that won GP Japan had wastelands in it. If your wondering the decks were Goblins with 4? caverns, UWR Entreatless Miracles with 2 caverns MD, Green and taxes and death and taxes with at least 1 MD and then UWR Bomberman with at least 2 caverns. Between those 5 decks and the 4 GBx decks I played against my counterbalances did basically nothing all day.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Is it wrong the first thing I think when I look David longs board is "what language are those Taigas' "

[twndomn]

Long story short, Elves defeated Miracles, then Lands, going for the trophy against Grixis Delver.

2 Omni-tell in the top 32, that's... interesting.

[iamajellydonut]

2 Omni-tell in the top 32, that's... interesting.

Is it really that surprising? OmniTell isn't a terrible deck, but a lot of its recent strength came from people just not caring about the deck.

[BeardTron]

I wish I could chew gum like this kid...that's gotta be the secret.

Chew gum like barbarian = massive ego inflation = SCG Finals

Chew that gum bro...chew that motha Effin gum like a boss.

[Meekrab]

Why the hell do they show Lossett against Fabiano? 6-2-1? C'mon SCG. :eek:
After round 5 or 6 SCG usually show matches where the loser is eliminated from playing for Top 8 / Day 2.

And Fabiano and Lossett are both strong players who are fun to watch.

[twndomn]

Is it really that surprising? OmniTell isn't a terrible deck, but a lot of its recent strength came from people just not caring about the deck.

Ok, here's how it went down:

The full metagame breakdown looks like this on day 2:

Miracles – 14
Omni-Tell – 12
Elves – 10
Temur Delver – 7
Death and Taxes – 6
Sultai Delver – 6
Infect – 6
Grixis Control – 5
Jeskai Stoneblade – 5
U/R Delver – 4
Shardless Sultai – 4
Storm – 4
Reanimator – 4
Lands – 4
Burn – 3
4-Color Delver – 3
Sneak and Show – 3
MUD – 2
Esper Deathblade – 2
Goblins – 2
Merfolk – 1
Imperial Painter – 1
Sultai Control – 1
Affinity – 1
Abzan Maverick – 1
Maverick – 1
Punishing Jund – 1
Esper Control – 1
Jeskai Delver – 1
U/W Stoneblade – 1
Enchantress – 1
Deadguy Ale – 1
Moggcatcher – 1
B/G Depths – 1
Young Frankenstein – 1

Total is 121.

For Omni-tell,
you got 12/121 (about 10%) on Day 2, which is 2nd largest archtype. Then only 2 out of 12 finished top 32. The other 10 finished between 33rd and 121st. That's... ok I guess.

For Miracles,
you get 14/121 (about 11.5%) on Day 2, which is largest archtype. Then 7 out of 14 finished top 32.

For giggles, Lands,
you get 4/121 on Day 2. Then 2 out of 4 finished top 32. Woah~!

[JPoJohnson]

Thanks for the day 2 breakdown. That was interesting to see.


I think that Long is a great lands player, but there are definitely matches that he loses that he could have won. Everyone has those matches though... hindsight 20/20. All storm players have these situations happen often enough and with Lands being combo/control you know how timing being just off or drawing just the wrong card is no bueno.

Long was greedy in his match against Elves and could have played more conservative, but if gamble hadn't dumped his crop rotation then the greed would have paid off.

I am definitely one of those in the crowd of "if Tabernacle was cheaper I would play Lands". Such a fantastically cool deck. So unique. Requires a lot of play to get good with though if you ask me.

[amalek0]

As a further treat, while I was on duty counting lists I did keep track, there were only SIX lands players in the main event, four made day two, and at least one of the two that didn't lost a win and in for day two because I was birding the match.

As far as the cmc of a fused wear//tear on the stack, the problem wasn't that we didn't know the rules, it was that we knew it too well--we were all quite cognizant of the fact that wear//tear has two separate sets of characteristics as a card, and we wanted to be sure that the "two sets of characteristics" is the deviation from what a card typically has. It's important to note that this is basically only relevant with fuse spells since the other double-cards can't be cast with both modes, it's one or the other. It's an understandable thing to want to confirm with another judge.

I'll echo what the other judge further up said--SCG has a small core staff that they take to their events (Liz, Patrick V, the commentators, the coverage staff, etc) but the judge staff is generally entirely NON SCG employees. They put out an announcement on judge apps and we judges apply to be on staff. The L3's came a further distance this weekend, the head judge came up from florida, but apart from them, I and one other judge came up from Northern VA, and everyone else was within about a 2-3 hour distance, at least among the judge staff. One of the judges lived walking distance from the event site, many others drove to and from their homes and didn't even stay in motels/hotels at all.

[ryscott85]

I wish I could chew gum like this kid...that's gotta be the secret.

Chew gum like barbarian = massive ego inflation = SCG Finals

Chew that gum bro...chew that motha Effin gum like a boss.


Hahaha! I was thinking the same thing. He reminded me of a cow and his cud.

[MGB]

As a further treat, while I was on duty counting lists I did keep track, there were only SIX lands players in the main event, four made day two, and at least one of the two that didn't lost a win and in for day two because I was birding the match.


That's really pretty fascinating. What this tells me is that Lands is a lot stronger of an archetype than its raw number of placings show, because the Lands players that enter events generally place highly. This isn't a phenomenon that was exclusive to this event either, because according to a reddit breakdown of the metagame post-bannings (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3522py/scg_legacy_results_for_major_archetypes_dc/) RG Lands has the highest win percentage (61%) at recent SCG tournament placings of all the tier decks in the format.

I'm under the suspicion that Lands truly is one of the 2-3 most powerful decks in this format, and maybe even the best deck in this format. The only thing holding it back from a larger percentage share of the metagame is simply the lack of more pilots! Good players either just want to play blue cards (strong players tend to gravitate toward blue card selection in every format) in Legacy or they simply don't have access to the pricy cards like Tabernacle, whereas Revised duals are more widely available in their collections or through loans from friends.

[Tylert]

That's really pretty fascinating. What this tells me is that Lands is a lot stronger of an archetype than its raw number of placings show, because the Lands players that enter events generally place highly. This isn't a phenomenon that was exclusive to this event either, because according to a reddit breakdown of the metagame post-bannings (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3522py/scg_legacy_results_for_major_archetypes_dc/) RG Lands has the highest win percentage (61%) at recent SCG tournament placings of all the tier decks in the format.

I'm under the suspicion that Lands truly is one of the 2-3 most powerful decks in this format, and maybe even the best deck in this format. The only thing holding it back from a larger percentage share of the metagame is simply the lack of more pilots! Good players either just want to play blue cards (strong players tend to gravitate toward blue card selection in every format) in Legacy or they simply don't have access to the pricy cards like Tabernacle, whereas Revised duals are more widely available in their collections or through loans from friends.

Don't forget that an underplayed deck is not metagamed against... If more Land player show up, the deck will be considered as a potential encounter and people will side cards speciffically against it.
Omnitell got a lot of top 8 lately because of that. Apparently people came prepared for it this time :) The same could happen for lands (If people ever decide to put 1k in a card that is played only in that archetype).

[Ingo]

That's really pretty fascinating. What this tells me is that Lands is a lot stronger of an archetype than its raw number of placings show, because the Lands players that enter events generally place highly.

It is also the dedication and experience of these landsplayers in general. The lands-cardpool isn't easily transformed into other decks, unlike most blue-shell decks. So landsplayers tend to be very faithful to and experienced with their archetype (it's not a cheap deck to put together either). David Long has been playing solely RG-Lands in SCG tourneys for the last year.
It's also specifically David Long who keeps top8-ing SCG events with this deck, which also points towards talent and experience of singular players.

[MGB]

It is also the dedication and experience of these landsplayers in general. The lands-cardpool isn't easily transformed into other decks, unlike most blue-shell decks. So landsplayers tend to be very faithful to and experienced with their archetype (it's not a cheap deck to put together either). David Long has been playing solely RG-Lands in SCG tourneys for the last year.
It's also specifically David Long who keeps top8-ing SCG events with this deck, which also points towards talent and experience of singular players.

But it's not just him, as the comment I was referenced mentioned that four of only six Lands players in the main event all made day 2, and one of them lost a win-and-in. I've seen this at other tournaments as well, like the last one I attended myself (Eternal Extravaganza 2) - David Long didn't even top-16 that event, and ended up somewhere in the top 50 afaik, but most of the other Lands players at that event all did equally as well or even better.

I personally know other people who can't really play their way out of a paper bag in other formats and with other decks even in Legacy, but play Lands almost exclusively and do well enough with it simply through the sheer power of the deck. Now I'm not saying that all Lands players are unskilled - obviously someone like David Long wouldn't be able to have the sustained success with Lands that he has had if he wasn't a highly skilled Magic player to begin with - but Lands is such a powerful deck that if you give the deck to someone who is already skilled at Magic, you have this run of consistent top-8s at big events. Whereas maybe if David Long was playing a more fair deck like Stoneblade, or RUG Delver, he would still have a top8 or two under his belt but not the sustained streak of dominance that Lands has afforded him.

Judging decks in a vacuum - Lands is just extremely powerful in this format. A deck with only 2-3 bad matchups that are answered by a 10+ card sideboard... is maybe a tad too good.

[Ingo]

Judging decks in a vacuum - Lands is just extremely powerful in this format. A deck with only 2-3 bad matchups that are answered by a 10+ card sideboard... is maybe a tad too good.

Im playing Lands myself, so i'd nuance the 2-3 matchups that are bad. Most combomatchups are very difficult, Omnitell, SneakShow, Storm, which are quite represented. Less frequent combo, like High Tide, Belcher, or bloodmoon prison (stompy, painter, Big Red) is hard as well. Miracles isn't a favored matchup either. There's lots of commonly run hate in fair decks like RIP, Bloodmoon, Meddling Mage ... as well.

Frankly, when Miracles and Omnitell are the most represented decks in the meta, RG Lands isn't well positioned (but I agree ofcourse the deck performed very well with 6/4/2 representation numbers in total/day2/top32).

[Ellomdian]

I'm currently debating whether I want to try to snag the HJ spot for the Legacy Open later this year in St. Louis, or just play in it.

If you Judge, I'd probably Play. Legacy-familiar staff makes the play experience with the cards I like to play (Chains, The Abyss, Transmute Artifact...) much, much nicer.

If you Play, I might have to Judge. ;)


Well, at the end of round 14 we have:

1 Jessup, Andrew 36 66.6667% Elves
2 Derczo, Michael 36 62.8071% DnT
3 Long, David 36 60.3175% Lands


What has happened to Brainstorm? xD

I was waiting to hear someone else say this. Now all we need is more people playing fast (non Show...) combo and the Europeans will stop making fun of us...


Judging decks in a vacuum - Lands is just extremely powerful in this format. A deck with only 2-3 bad matchups that are answered by a 10+ card sideboard... is maybe a tad too good.

You're forgetting the other natural problem with Lands - you have to find people who actually want to Playtest against it.

Then again, might not be so hard if it continues to reliably throw 20% of it's pilots into the T8! :)

[Blastoderm]

Ok, here's how it went down:

The full metagame breakdown looks like this on day 2:

Miracles – 14
Omni-Tell – 12
Elves – 10
Temur Delver – 7
Death and Taxes – 6
Sultai Delver – 6
Infect – 6
Grixis Control – 5
Jeskai Stoneblade – 5
U/R Delver – 4
Shardless Sultai – 4
Storm – 4
Reanimator – 4
Lands – 4
Burn – 3
4-Color Delver – 3
Sneak and Show – 3
MUD – 2
Esper Deathblade – 2
Goblins – 2
Merfolk – 1
Imperial Painter – 1
Sultai Control – 1
Affinity – 1
Abzan Maverick – 1
Maverick – 1
Punishing Jund – 1
Esper Control – 1
Jeskai Delver – 1
U/W Stoneblade – 1
Enchantress – 1
Deadguy Ale – 1
Moggcatcher – 1
B/G Depths – 1
Young Frankenstein – 1

Total is 121.

For Omni-tell,
you got 12/121 (about 10%) on Day 2, which is 2nd largest archtype. Then only 2 out of 12 finished top 32. The other 10 finished between 33rd and 121st. That's... ok I guess.

For Miracles,
you get 14/121 (about 11.5%) on Day 2, which is largest archtype. Then 7 out of 14 finished top 32.

For giggles, Lands,
you get 4/121 on Day 2. Then 2 out of 4 finished top 32. Woah~!

Would have expected some Dredge, guess not.

[twndomn]

143. Unsporting Conduct — Randomly Determining a Winner
Definition
Players use or offer to use a random method to determine the winner of a game or match.
Examples
A. As time is called in a tournament, two players about to draw roll a die to determine the winner.
B. A player offers to flip a coin to determine the winner of a match.

Philosophy
Using a random method to determine a winner compromises the integrity of the tournament.

Matches that result in a draw due to time are expected to be reported as such and are not excluded from this penalty if the players use a random method to determine the outcome.
Penalty
All Levels
Disqualification without prize

[ESG]

143. Unsporting Conduct — Randomly Determining a Winner

Cross-posting this from Bryant Cook's report in the Tournament Reports section:


However Anuraag didnt play maindeck clique according to his decklist which was available before he was officially disqualified. I guess you died to snapcaster beatdown.

Reading between the lines, I'm assuming Anuraag was DQ'd for reasons relating to what twndomn posted above. Anyone have more on this? Were there other disqualifications?

[nevilshute]

143. Unsporting Conduct — Randomly Determining a Winner
Definition
Players use or offer to use a random method to determine the winner of a game or match.
Examples
A. As time is called in a tournament, two players about to draw roll a die to determine the winner.
B. A player offers to flip a coin to determine the winner of a match.

Philosophy
Using a random method to determine a winner compromises the integrity of the tournament.

Matches that result in a draw due to time are expected to be reported as such and are not excluded from this penalty if the players use a random method to determine the outcome.
Penalty
All Levels
Disqualification without prize

Sorry if this is obvious, but what are you trying to say with this post? I haven't been reading this thread in its entirity so that might very well explain my inability to deduce what you're trying to get at :smile:

[Crimhead]

Don't forget that an underplayed deck is not metagamed against... If more Land player show up, the deck will be considered as a potential encounter and people will side cards speciffically against it.
Omnitell got a lot of top 8 lately because of that. Apparently people came prepared for it this time :) The same could happen for lands (If people ever decide to put 1k in a card that is played only in that archetype).
That's the beauty off Lands. It enjoys a very solid positioning, but it's relative obscurity (perpetuated by scarce, expensive, unversatile cards coupled with an unpopular play style) will keep the meta from ever really hating it out. The only exception might be splash damage. It's almost unfair.

Regardless, Lands may very well be the strongest deck in the current meta. The fact that the meta could theoretically adjust doesn't change that.

[Julian23]

Can someone comment on the disqualification of Anuraag Das?

[Crimhead]

Lands best deck ever.


ELves is up for Lands now, but despite what the commentators say, that's quite in Lands favor in my opinion.
Commentators didn't even mention Chasm. Elves has zero outs to that card and can't stop it from being rotated in either.

I've never lost a match to Elves. I play RUG Lands though, giving me 2x EE main, and five tutors for Chalice post board. Maybe it's a tougher match for R/G.

[Julian23]

Commentators didn't even mention Chasm. Elves has zero outs to that card and can't stop it from being rotated in either.

I've won my fair share of game1s against Chasm without even needing to remove it. Chasm is just a card that protects them from the Natural Order half of the deck. They still just die to a Glimpse combo.

Regarding the matchup in general, it's pretty 50/50, but Elves should try to win the die role considering how important it is to be on the play. Both decks are capable of having some insane nut-draws but unfortunately RG Land's nut draw, which is less likely, is dominant over almost any nut draw from Elves (except for the turn2 kill through one Punishing Fire draw).

[Crimhead]

I've won my fair share of game1s against Chasm without even needing to remove it. Chasm is just a card that protects them from the Natural Order half of the deck. They still just die to a Glimpse combo.
How do you kill without damage? Life loss from DRS?

[Julian23]

How do you kill without damage? Life loss from DRS?

You play your entire deck with Glimpse and use 4 Quirion Rangers and 4 Wirewood Symbiotes to activate DRS. Those will give you up to potentially 12 untaps + an additional up to 8 untaps in the opponent's upkeep. Even with the number of QR uses limited by Forests in play (GSZ=0 adds up to 2 additional land drops), you're still looking at at something north of 12+ activations easily. The food for DRS is provided by casting Glimpses and Natural Orders + discarding GSZ at end of turn. I've seen a lot of Elves players miss that last part about end-of-turn discarding and concede games they had actually won.

[iamajellydonut]

How do you kill without damage? Life loss from DRS?

Wirewood Symbiote bounces creature untaps Deathrite Shaman cast creature tap creature with Birchlore Ranger for black mana untap Deathrite Shaman again by returning Bayou with Quirion Ranger play Bayou tap for black mana...

[Crimhead]

That works! Nice tidbit - Elves never ceases to amaze me with all its tactics and interactions. If I didn't love Lands so much I'd probably run Elves instead.

Technically DRS can also remove Chasm from the yard, but this isn't usually too hard to play around. Again, I find it a much easier match-up with Control Lands. EE is pretty solid here.

[Parcher]

Can someone comment on the disqualification of Anuraag Das?

From what I could get, his opponent mulled from seven to seven. They were congenial, and discussed either a forced mull to five, or losing a random card from hand. Both solutions which they had seen to this issue. Evidently there was no judge interaction at all at this point. Anuraag had been smoking his hash pipe prior to the Top8, and suggested they roll to see which solution to use. This is where I guess the table judge woke up.

[Misplayer]

Can someone comment on the disqualification of Anuraag Das?

This is the way Joe Lossett explained it on his stream. Andrew Jessup (Elves player) mulled to 7 like Parcher said, but didn't look at the cards or pick up the cards or something(?). The judge ruled it was a forced mull to 5 which Das didn't think was very fair. At this point, Das proposes to Jessup that they draw that game and go to the next game so they can both start with a fresh 7. Jessup hems and haws a bit at which point Das says the fatal "we can just roll to see if we draw this game or play it". Apparently Joe talked to the HJ about it afterwards and the HJ was regretful because Das had good intentions, but there is no room for interpretation within the rule.

Joe explains it here http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/v/5449410?t=94m0s

[Esper3k]

Wow... that was in the t8?

[iamajellydonut]

Would had to have been. Interestingly it shows Andrew as having won 2-1.

[Ellomdian]

Apparently Joe talked to the HJ about it afterwards and the HJ was regretful because Das had good intentions, but there is no room for interpretation within the rule.

God damn it players. The T8 of a Competitive or Professional event is no place for good intentions. If you are confused about something, disagree with a procedure, or just can't find your ass with both hands, call a judge, and ask to speak with the Head Judge if there's a problem.

It's not hard - judges are more than happy to help prevent you from doing something stupid you didn't know would DQ you...

[ubernostrum]

If you Judge, I'd probably Play. Legacy-familiar staff makes the play experience with the cards I like to play (Chains, The Abyss, Transmute Artifact...) much, much nicer.

If you Play, I might have to Judge. ;)

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. So far, though, the solicitation for Open HJs for Q4 has not (as far as I know) gone out, so for now I'm just contracted to do Milwaukee (Standard Open).

Meanwhile, I'm a few days out from travelling to GP Charlotte but still haven't wrapped all my post-event paperwork from the DFW Open. Anyone who plans to attend an Open I'm wearing the red shirt at: please don't cheat. Not only does it make me sad at the event, it makes me sad to have to deal with the stuff afterward too.

[amalek0]

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. So far, though, the solicitation for Open HJs for Q4 has not (as far as I know) gone out, so for now I'm just contracted to do Milwaukee (Standard Open).

Meanwhile, I'm a few days out from travelling to GP Charlotte but still haven't wrapped all my post-event paperwork from the DFW Open. Anyone who plans to attend an Open I'm wearing the red shirt at: please don't cheat. Not only does it make me sad at the event, it makes me sad to have to deal with the stuff afterward too.

all that paperwork.... It's worse than actually having to DQ someone.