[Deck] Grixis Tempo

[and3h]

I like winter orb, but I've used it more in bug delver as opposed to grixis delver. If anything it should be even better in grixis as the deck can run very easily on a limited amount of mana.

Decks I would bring it in against are lands, eldrazi, miracles, mud, and aggro loam. Not tested it against 12 post though, I'm unsure if it would be any good there.

[Ltj999]

hey all,

Trying to figure out my SB, currently it is:

2 decay
2 strix
2 pyroblast
2 surgical
2 painful truths
1 dismember
1 dark blast
1 cabal therapy
1 grim lavamancer
1 null rod

I really want to add an invasive surgery, but not sure what to cut. Want to keep 2 surgical in as I feel we are already light on yard hate. Have thought of either cutting the darkblast, lavamancer, or dismember, but they all feel really important. I could also cut the 2 decay to add in a invasive surgery and an ancient grudge.

I'm on noah walkers main with the 2 therapy, 1 pierce, 1 forked bolt build.

Thoughts?

[Agrippa91]

I really think you can cut the second Surgical. Surgery is good against a lot of decks where Surgical is, too, e.g. Loam-decks and reanimator. The only deck where it's perhaps worse against is dredge and even there I'd bring it in. Overall, you can counter Dread Return, a lot of enablers as well as perhaps catch all Therapies with Delirium. Dredge is a deck where you're able to win game 1 pretty consistently anyways, Cabal Therapy is good against Bridges, Pyromancer makes a token army that can compete with the zombies and drs just stifles their general game plan.
Overall I don't honestly know what decks you think the 2nd surgical will be better against...

[Plague Sliver]

2nd copy = naturally easier to draw into it.

[Agrippa91]

2nd copy = naturally easier to draw into it.

Did you actually read my post? I pointed out that Invasive Surgery is pretty much identical from its power level to the 2nd surgery in pretty much every matchup. That doesn't change the odds of drawing any of them at all.

[and3h]

Last Sunday I competed in a moderately sized win a duel tournament with some success which is always good.

The list wasn't too spicy and I was flip flopping over what 15 cards should make up the sideboard. Eventually I settled with:

4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 tropical island

4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
3 young pyromancer
2 gurmag angler
1 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force of will
1 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
1 terminate
2 cabal therapy

1 dismember
1 darkblast
1 toxic deluge
2 surgical extraction
1 cabal therapy
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
1 sulfuric vortex
1 winter orb
1 ancient grudge
1 submerge


The deck felt solid all the way through and never felt like the match was hopeless apart from the last match which I'll touch on in a minute.

Round 1 - U/ W Miracles

The first game took an absolute age and I managed to see most of his deck. He never saw a top all game, but managed to get counterbalance out and got a bit fortunate blind flipping to counter some of my spells. Eventually won with an entreat for 2.

Game 2 he got out an early monastery mentor that took over the game quickly. I never saw any removal in the second game. The guy was a good miracles player and managed his resources really well in both games. Fully deserved the win.

Round 2 - Bye

Well we all need a bit of luck at times. Watched a few of the games going on before going to get something to eat.

Round 3 - Grixis Control

This was against one of the presenters of the Legacy Breakfast podcast. First game I managed to get an early deathrite and delver into play and just had answers for everything he tried to do. Second game started the same and get him down to 1 life but a couple of boardwipes later and he's stabilised quite nicely. So nicely in fact we're both at 1 life and he's got lethal on board. I top deck a bolt and he has nothing to counter it.

Round 4 - Reanimator

First game he combos turn 2 with counter back up. Not much to say about that. Games 2 & 3 were both really grindy games. Deathrites did a lot of work both games and gurmag is a big beatstick. I had a very timely surgical extraction for his only reanimation target with lots of counters in hand to take game 3.

Round 4 - Death and Taxes

ID into top 8

Top 8 Match - Dredge

This is the first time I'd played against dredge, so I wasn't sure how to combat it at first. He has the play as the better seed and combos turn 1. I scoop so he has less idea what I'm on. Game 2 I have a surgical and deathrite in hand but it's not enough to stop him going off turn 2/3.

All in all enjoyed playing the deck again and now I know a bit more of the meta I can change my board accordingly.

[Jaytron]

What'd you board in/out vs Miracles?

I wish there were a way to get a hold of Noah for his SB thoughts.

Painful Truths is a card that I'm unsure on when to take it.

Miracles is the obvious bring-in. Maybe Shardless? Shardless is pretty grindy, but attacks your life total pretty hard once you get into the mid-game. Same with Xblade decks. Maybe you want it against decks like Lands/Infect/NicFit?

[and3h]

The more I think about it, the more I think this wasn't totally right but


In
Sulfuric vortex
Winter orb
Flusterstorm x 2
Pitching needle

Out
Wasteland
Gurmag angler x 2
Terminate
Gitaxian probe

My thinking was sulfuric vortex provides a clock they can't get rid of, flusterstorm to win counter battles, pitching needle for top and winter orb because they don't like operating with less mana.

I took out the anglers because they will usually board into rest in peace, the wasteland because they play mostly basics, the terminate as a hedge of them not boarding anything else in and probe as I needed another card.

[Plague Sliver]

Did you actually read my post? I pointed out that Invasive Surgery is pretty much identical from its power level to the 2nd surgery in pretty much every matchup. That doesn't change the odds of drawing any of them at all.

My bad.

You have more experience vs. Dredge than I do, so it's good to know the Game 1's are winnable.

[VERTUK]

The more I think about it, the more I think this wasn't totally right but


In
Sulfuric vortex
Winter orb
Flusterstorm x 2
Pitching needle

Out
Wasteland
Gurmag angler x 2
Terminate
Gitaxian probe

My thinking was sulfuric vortex provides a clock they can't get rid of, flusterstorm to win counter battles, pitching needle for top and winter orb because they don't like operating with less mana.

I took out the anglers because they will usually board into rest in peace, the wasteland because they play mostly basics, the terminate as a hedge of them not boarding anything else in and probe as I needed another card.

Imo u shouldnt take out anglers vs miracles cause u need all your creatures vs terminus.
Painful thruths is a very good card vs all grindy matchups (2x) and its good vs mirror (1x) cause it can turn a game to your side very easily.

[and3h]

I was thinking about what cards miracles is likely to bring in against us. High on their list of impact cards against us is Rest in Peace, which is good against deathrites and anglers. The last thing I want to be doing is holding onto a 7cost creature for most of the game, unable to cast it. That's why I sided them out.

[Jaytron]

I was thinking about what cards miracles is likely to bring in against us. High on their list of impact cards against us is Rest in Peace, which is good against deathrites and anglers. The last thing I want to be doing is holding onto a 7cost creature for most of the game, unable to cast it. That's why I sided them out.

Surprised you brought in flusters, but no Pyros. I also don't really board out Gurmags. I like to maintain threat density. Miracles brings in RiP vs the goyf delver variants, but are we sure they bring it in vs Grixis?

FWIW, I sideboard like so:

(Noah's stock list)

-4 Daze
-2 Wasteland

+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Painful Truths

Things I've considered: Ancient Grudge (it never really seems to do much work for me), EE (kills angels/monks, but also kills your Young P tokens. Can also kill a resolved CB. Sneak it in at 3+cmc but with 2 colors), Baleful Strix is something I've heard come in against Miracles. Unsure how I feel about that.

[Tom T]

I was thinking about what cards miracles is likely to bring in against us. High on their list of impact cards against us is Rest in Peace, which is good against deathrites and anglers. The last thing I want to be doing is holding onto a 7cost creature for most of the game, unable to cast it. That's why I sided them out.

I would rather board out Deathrite Shaman than the fish. If they bring in Rest in Peace they negate their own Snapcaster Mages which I consider one of the better cards against us. The Angler is also too big to die to their flash creatures and avoids CounterTop lock.
The matchup itself feels in our favor imo.

[Ltj999]

I would never board out any creatures vs miracles, and I keep in most of the bolts as we desperately need to reach vs them.

I usually take out some number of dazes (both play and draw maybe keeping 2-3 in on the play and 0-2 in on the draw), the forked bolt, probably one lighting bolt, and maybe some probes, to bring in something like 2 pryoblast, 2 painful truths, invasive surgery, null rod/pithing needle. Might cut the cabal therapies play vs draw, but I go back and fourth on this.

Edit: After speaking with some friends, touching base with Noah about how he sideboards in grixis I've really been re-evaluating my overall sideboard philosophy (in all playing grixis included) and challenging the notion of "absolutes" (e.g. all dazes out on the draw) and I'm finding that I'm sideboarding much more effectively than ever before. Its hard to articulate why this seems to have been working, but I feel like it really has.

[Jaytron]

Edit: After speaking with some friends, touching base with Noah about how he sideboards in grixis I've really been re-evaluating my overall sideboard philosophy (in all playing grixis included) and challenging the notion of "absolutes" (e.g. all dazes out on the draw) and I'm finding that I'm sideboarding much more effectively than ever before. Its hard to articulate why this seems to have been working, but I feel like it really has.

Can you elaborate on this sideboard philosophy?

Also, I'd love to hear Noah's general sb strategies vs popular matchups.

[Ltj999]

Can you elaborate on this sideboard philosophy?

Also, I'd love to hear Noah's general sb strategies vs popular matchups.

Sure I'll try my best:

Basically having some general things to bring in vs each match up, and shaving here and their in the main to make room.

For example vs shardless the other night I sideboarded like:

play:

-2 therapy
-3 probe
-2 FoW

+2 Painful truths
+2 Strix
+1 Lavamancer
+2 Blasts

Draw:

-1 Daze
-1 Fow
-2 Therapy
-3 Probe


brought the same cards in.

I'm not sure if this conveys it will but with miracles for example, Daze isnt very good as they can easily play around it, would I side all of them out every time, in the past I would, but now I'm trying to be more flexible and maybe leave one or 2 copies in (play/draw) depending.

As for his general SbB strategies, he basically described three main sets of sb plans (my words not his). Control, in which you want to bring in cards that help to pressure the opponent and refill your hand, combo, pretty obvious, then siding into more of a grixis control shell with the grindy mid-range decks, which his sideboard is really well set up against.

[Jaytron]

Sure I'll try my best:

Basically having some general things to bring in vs each match up, and shaving here and their in the main to make room.

For example vs shardless the other night I sideboarded like:

play:

-2 therapy
-3 probe
-2 FoW

+2 Painful truths
+2 Strix
+1 Lavamancer
+2 Blasts

Draw:

-1 Daze
-1 Fow
-2 Therapy
-3 Probe


brought the same cards in.

I'm not sure if this conveys it will but with miracles for example, Daze isnt very good as they can easily play around it, would I side all of them out every time, in the past I would, but now I'm trying to be more flexible and maybe leave one or 2 copies in (play/draw) depending.

As for his general SbB strategies, he basically described three main sets of sb plans (my words not his). Control, in which you want to bring in cards that help to pressure the opponent and refill your hand, combo, pretty obvious, then siding into more of a grixis control shell with the grindy mid-range decks, which his sideboard is really well set up against.
Thanks!

I'm interested in his mid-range strategy for sb, if you remember. (Actually your boarding vs Shardless is helpful) Do we not like Cabal vs shardless because it's just more 1 for 1s? Strix does seem much better, as does lavaman. Probes also seem less valuable if you are cutting cabals anyways. Is Ancient Grudge too narrow vs Shardless? Same with EE?

I think I'm okay with control and combo?

I think I also have the problem of overboarding. Bringing in too many niche cards and diluting my overall gameplan too much.

What are your thoughts on Engineered Explosives and Ancient Grudge vs Miracles?

[and3h]

Surprised you brought in flusters, but no Pyros. I also don't really board out Gurmags. I like to maintain threat density snip

I did bring in pyros as well because I countered a race with one. Haven't a clue what else I took out.

I didn't think I sideboarded correctly so thanks everyone for letting me know. It's the only way I'm going to improve.

[Ltj999]

Thanks!

I'm interested in his mid-range strategy for sb, if you remember. (Actually your boarding vs Shardless is helpful) Do we not like Cabal vs shardless because it's just more 1 for 1s? Strix does seem much better, as does lavaman. Probes also seem less valuable if you are cutting cabals anyways. Is Ancient Grudge too narrow vs Shardless? Same with EE?

I think I'm okay with control and combo?

I think I also have the problem of overboarding. Bringing in too many niche cards and diluting my overall gameplan too much.

What are your thoughts on Engineered Explosives and Ancient Grudge vs Miracles?

Generally the mid range strategy is bringing in more cards that really grind, like strix and painful truths. I don't like cabal therapy vs shardless as its a pretty poor tempo play for us and their threats are pretty redundant. Grudge is def way too narrow vs shardless. Yah we are a tempo deck at heart, so we dont want to dilute that too much, particularly vs decks that can go way over the top of us regarding power level. I think the temp vs midrange game plan of our deck can be pretty dependent on our opening hand and play vs draw.

I've only recently gone to the grudge sb plan, as I was on 2 Abrupt decay. I don't have a ton of testing in with grudge/invasive surgery, vs decay, but I cut the decay as it made some tension boarding vs goyf decks where I would be hesitant to bring them in where I'm so easily wastelanded off green. I'm not playing the explosives, but it seems good vs miracles, answers lots of their threats, can be played through counterbalance more easily than other spells. the grudge seems pretty niche vs miracles, what does it do, best case scenario shuffle away their top? seems too specific to me. Vs miracles I'll bring in something like 2 truths, 2 blasts, 1 invasive surgery, null rod, cutting something like forked bolt, 1 lighting bolt, 1 daze, 2 cabal therapy, 1 probe, on the play, and maybe the same but cut 2 daze and leave in the probe on the draw? I'm still undecided on the utility of therapy vs miracles, as its pretty solid early game, but is just an absolutely horrible top deck vs them late game.

[Jaytron]

Generally the mid range strategy is bringing in more cards that really grind, like strix and painful truths. I don't like cabal therapy vs shardless as its a pretty poor tempo play for us and their threats are pretty redundant. Grudge is def way too narrow vs shardless. Yah we are a tempo deck at heart, so we dont want to dilute that too much, particularly vs decks that can go way over the top of us regarding power level. I think the temp vs midrange game plan of our deck can be pretty dependent on our opening hand and play vs draw.

I've only recently gone to the grudge sb plan, as I was on 2 Abrupt decay. I don't have a ton of testing in with grudge/invasive surgery, vs decay, but I cut the decay as it made some tension boarding vs goyf decks where I would be hesitant to bring them in where I'm so easily wastelanded off green. I'm not playing the explosives, but it seems good vs miracles, answers lots of their threats, can be played through counterbalance more easily than other spells. the grudge seems pretty niche vs miracles, what does it do, best case scenario shuffle away their top? seems too specific to me. Vs miracles I'll bring in something like 2 truths, 2 blasts, 1 invasive surgery, null rod, cutting something like forked bolt, 1 lighting bolt, 1 daze, 2 cabal therapy, 1 probe, on the play, and maybe the same but cut 2 daze and leave in the probe on the draw? I'm still undecided on the utility of therapy vs miracles, as its pretty solid early game, but is just an absolutely horrible top deck vs them late game.
Glad to hear your thoughts

FWIW I've actually brought IN my 3rd cabal vs Miracles. I feel like it holds it's worth much better than daze does in the matchup. I leave all the probes in because my life total usually is not in jeopardy and having hand knowledge is extremely helpful (especially if I'm bringing in Cabals). I don't run Null Rod, but I do bring in a Pithing Needle.

[Agrippa91]

Glad to hear your thoughts

FWIW I've actually brought IN my 3rd cabal vs Miracles. I feel like it holds it's worth much better than daze does in the matchup. I leave all the probes in because my life total usually is not in jeopardy and having hand knowledge is extremely helpful (especially if I'm bringing in Cabals). I don't run Null Rod, but I do bring in a Pithing Needle.

I also agree with bringing in Therapies against Miracles, he was talking about Shardless though. There you really don't want them because it doesn't matter if they have decay, goyf, shardless, liliana or a sweeper, you're just a card behind if you don't hit and that's really bad. Also at some point both of you are in topdeck mode which makes it even worse.
Miracles on the other hand doesn't play to the board, so playing Therapies to attack their hands is really good.
I don't play Therapies in the main, but bring them in against:
- any sort of combo (including elves, burn and infect)
- miracles
- creature decks that show me cards (not delver) like stoneforge mystic decks, Merfolk and goblins)

The matchups they're worst against are midrange decks like Jund/Shardless and delver variants (except UWR).

[Jaytron]

I also agree with bringing in Therapies against Miracles, he was talking about Shardless though. There you really don't want them because it doesn't matter if they have decay, goyf, shardless, liliana or a sweeper, you're just a card behind if you don't hit and that's really bad. Also at some point both of you are in topdeck mode which makes it even worse.
Miracles on the other hand doesn't play to the board, so playing Therapies to attack their hands is really good.
I don't play Therapies in the main, but bring them in against:
- any sort of combo (including elves, burn and infect)
- miracles
- creature decks that show me cards (not delver) like stoneforge mystic decks, Merfolk and goblins)

The matchups they're worst against are midrange decks like Jund/Shardless and delver variants (except UWR).

Thanks!

I think in the past I've been trying to keep cabals in vs Shardless and other Delver decks.

I've been trying to rethink my sb strategies as of late.

Agrippa, I saw your boarding strategies on the delver mirror.

LT, what are yours?

For me, I go:

-1 Daze/FoW (draw) or -2 FoW on the play (Dylan Donegan and Jacob Wilson seem to have a 'never drop under 2 fow on the draw rule')
-2 Cabal (I guess Cabals aren't great in Delver mirrors? Unsure on this)
-2 Probe

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Grim Lava
+1 EE
+1 Darkblast
+1 Dismember

I feel like I should bring in my 2 Baleful Strix too, maybe drop another daze/fow

Painful truths seems a bit risky since our life total is in danger

[Agrippa91]

It's really hard to cast PT around daze. Also when the opponent is ahead on board and hits you for let's say 5 a turn this is like the worst card you can draw/have in hand.
The reason Jacob Wilson at least went with the FoW-rule imo is because he was playing RUG (I never saw him play Grixis). It's just way more tempo-oriented, also due to the lack of Decay there were some permanents you simply can't deal with properly, e.g. opposing Tarmogoyfs or Anglers.

As for our mirror I also leave in 1 FoW just because sometimes you don't have an answer for YP in hand. Angler is even worse since even my sideboard has only Fire Covenant to deal with it which I don't bring in. That said you can answer all of them at least with your own equivalent, in general this matchup seems pretty grindy.

Generally my rule of thumb is leaving in 2 FoW against stifle decks and UR, 1 FoW against aggressive delver decks without Stifle, 0 FoW against grindy Delver decks like UWR and BUG.

Not sure if with the mirror you actually meant boarding against grixis or just delver in general but I suspected the former.

[Jaytron]

It's really hard to cast PT around daze. Also when the opponent is ahead on board and hits you for let's say 5 a turn this is like the worst card you can draw/have in hand.
The reason Jacob Wilson at least went with the FoW-rule imo is because he was playing RUG (I never saw him play Grixis). It's just way more tempo-oriented, also due to the lack of Decay there were some permanents you simply can't deal with properly, e.g. opposing Tarmogoyfs or Anglers.

As for our mirror I also leave in 1 FoW just because sometimes you don't have an answer for YP in hand. Angler is even worse since even my sideboard has only Fire Covenant to deal with it which I don't bring in. That said you can answer all of them at least with your own equivalent, in general this matchup seems pretty grindy.

Generally my rule of thumb is leaving in 2 FoW against stifle decks and UR, 1 FoW against aggressive delver decks without Stifle, 0 FoW against grindy Delver decks like UWR and BUG.

Not sure if with the mirror you actually meant boarding against grixis or just delver in general but I suspected the former.
Honestly it's nice to talk about sb plans vs al delver variants.

Dylan Donegan seems to also want to keep 2 forces on the draw vs any deck. I guess that makes sense, because Dazes are pretty lackluster on the draw.

I don't run Decay either, so maybe it makes sense to keep some number of forces in all matches on the draw.

[Agrippa91]

Hm, yeah, there really are some cards around that just shut delver strategies off hardcore, e.g. some enchantments or just a nasty mass removal. Especially since lists like that from Noah are extremely vulnerable to Forked Bolt and -1/-1 x-for-1s which I avoided while building my deck (no TNN, Vendilion Clique, Lavamancer, Strix).

I must admit that I'm a bit of an oddball when it comes to playing this deck. I e.g. frequently saw (pro) people having force and daze in hand on the draw and forcing a goyf on their opponent's 2nd turn rather than Dazing it. I'm just not a fan of that, especially since I believe this deck runs extremely well on a super low land count (that said I also only play 3 cards that cost 2 or more in YP).
I really believe though that you should play according to your style rather than blindly rely on guides. I e.g. tend to keep cantrips that just show me more cantrips while other people might shuffle it for "action", meaning I'm a more defensive delver player than most. Keeping this in mind and the fact that my games tend to go longer (I like to grind with my delver deck, taking advantage of my low land count as my form of card advantage while forcing opponents to throw stuff away e.g. by chump-blocking) I guess my guide makes sense, but it's definitely not the sideboarding guide.

[eyeownyu]

Anyone think about playing jace in the board? It's only 1 more than truths, and obviously way better in the grindy matchups like miracles and shardless.

[Jaytron]

Anyone think about playing jace in the board? It's only 1 more than truths, and obviously way better in the grindy matchups like miracles and shardless.

4 CMC feels infinitely more expensive than 3 in this deck, for me. Jace is great, but I would just rather have 3 cards a turn before.

If there were a Delver deck that ran more lands, like BUG then I would put Jace in the sb.

[magical-yata]

The deck got first place at the SCG Legacy Classic this weekend. It was the standard Noah Walker list, but featured an Invasive Surgery in the sideboard.

[Jaytron]

The deck got first place at the SCG Legacy Classic this weekend. It was the standard Noah Walker list, but featured an Invasive Surgery in the sideboard. Interesting that he dropped Painful Truths for it. I'd probably try it in place of a Surgical?

I played a few games today/yesterday, went 3-0 Looking for more boarding strategies. I'm running Noah's stock list.

Soul Sisters (budget build, newish player)
I didn't even board against him, since he didn't have a SB, but I probably would have done -2 WL +1 Darkblast +1 Grim Lavamancer

Not a hard matchup, I took it in 2 before he could really build a board.

Burn
Don't really remember, but I think I won off an early DRS+Zombie Fish

Board: I'm not too sure what to board in this matchup, many cards feel "bad" but I went:
-2 WL +Cabal +Grim Lavamancer Not really sure what else I want from the board. Most things feel too slow or useless

G2 Don't remember but I lost

G3 I strip his hand and get a 3 for 1 cabal hitting PoP

Nic Fit
I was playing Nic Fit this time, friend was playing Grixis Delver, He managed to get me in 3, but what do you want to board here?

I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
Draw: -2 WL -3 Daze -1 Forked, +2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
Play: -2 WL -2 Daze -1 Forked -1 FoW, Same cards in

I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?

12 Post
G1
Kept a hand that had multiple cantrips, but no countermagic and no threats. I stick a late threat, but he show and tells into a primetime and I still haven't found relevant countermagic.


Board: -2 Daze -1 FoW - 1 Forked bolt +1 Cabal +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge

G2
I stick a Pyro, Delver, and Gurmag early, and kill him fairly quicky. He attemps to SnT, and I force it. He concedes after.

G3 (dropped a 3rd daze to bring in FoW)
I stick an Pyro T3, after a T1 wasteland on him.
T4 I Ponder and brainstorm into a probe + cabal. I strip his hand of 2 prime times and an Ensnaring bridge leaving him with a needle and a top. I bolt him his end of turn and swing with a whole bunch of tokens while cantripping and making more. He concedes (maybe a little too early).

Boarding against 12 post felt sort of weird. I thought of bringing Baleful Strix and Painful Truths, but I felt like I really needed the Bolts for reach. Baleful Strix could kill any of his big threats, but I feel if he's swinging in with a huge dude, my window to win has already begun to close. Painful truths, I was on the fence. Again, if the game goes long and I need to reload with Painful Truths, I'm likely in a bad spot anyways? Daze got useless quick, so I could have dropped more dazes for PTs? Your guys' thoughts?

[Tom T]

Hey all! Two weeks ago I decided on this deck after playing storm for 2 years and my meta being Eldrazi-infested.
Last week I went with Noah Walkers' list swapping Painful Truths for Flusterstorms:

R1 - Eldrazi, 2-1
R2 - Reanimator, 2-0
R3 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R4 - Grixis TITI, ID
R5 - Eldrazi, 2-1
T4 - Eldrazi, 1-2

Past weekend I played the two Legacy Star Events at GP Barcelona saturday and sunday and won them both.

Saturday:
R1 - Sneakshow, ID (the only other Dutchman with whom I decide to split and ID because of the reward system being weird)
R2 - Shardless BUG, 2-1
R3 - BUG Delver, 2-0
R4 - Uwr Stoneblade 2-1
R5 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R6 - Storm, 2-1

Sunday:
R1 - Concession, weird situation but.. 2-0
R2 - BUG Delver, 2-1
R3 - Storm, 2-0
R4 - Burn, 2-0
R5 - BUG Delver, 2-0

I win a 3390 star points and after the split I get myself 2 Underground Sea and a Volcanic Island.

The deck is pretty solid but I'm not sure if I like the Cabal Therapies in this deck even though I've been playing them for years.

[Manipulato]

Hey all! Two weeks ago I decided on this deck after playing storm for 2 years and my meta being Eldrazi-infested.
Last week I went with Noah Walkers' list swapping Painful Truths for Flusterstorms:

R1 - Eldrazi, 2-1
R2 - Reanimator, 2-0
R3 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R4 - Grixis TITI, ID
R5 - Eldrazi, 2-1
T4 - Eldrazi, 1-2

Past weekend I played the two Legacy Star Events at GP Barcelona saturday and sunday and won them both.

Saturday:
R1 - Sneakshow, ID (the only other Dutchman with whom I decide to split and ID because of the reward system being weird)
R2 - Shardless BUG, 2-1
R3 - BUG Delver, 2-0
R4 - Uwr Stoneblade 2-1
R5 - Sneakshow, 2-0
R6 - Storm, 2-1

Sunday:
R1 - Concession, weird situation but.. 2-0
R2 - BUG Delver, 2-1
R3 - Storm, 2-0
R4 - Burn, 2-0
R5 - BUG Delver, 2-0

I win a 3390 star points and after the split I get myself 2 Underground Sea and a Volcanic Island.

The deck is pretty solid but I'm not sure if I like the Cabal Therapies in this deck even though I've been playing them for years.

Gratz on your great finishes! What do you exactly dont like about the therapies? Before Noah won the SCG event with this list nobody played those MD but I think they're super awesome in the SB and really important there.

Would you play the 2 Pierce 2 Forked Bolt list instead?
You had really good results against Eldrazi, how went the games against them? Normally a tough MU without AD/Goyf.

[Agrippa91]

Congratulations from my side, too!
Since you switched the Flusterstorm and Painful Truths: Would you bring the PT in in grindy matchups? Or was it rather against miracles? Because tbh I'd rather have a flusterstorm against miracles than PT, too. It's worse against midrange decks though I guess.

I'm also not a big fan of the CT mainboard, they're definitely powerful sideboard cards though. It's just that they're strongest in the early turns where you opponent still has enough cards in hands and no brainstorm up. Also they're not good against tempo-decks or decks with interchangeable threats. I really only like them against decks that don't commit to the board so you can attack them on a different angle besides counterspells.

[Jaytron]

Great finishes Tom!

I'd like to get all your thoughts on my current boarding strategies. The Nic Fit thread seems to be trying to build a boarding database, via a spreadsheet, maybe that would be a good idea here.

I'm on Noah's stock list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399409#paper

Miracles
-4 Daze -2 WL -1 Forked Bolt
+1 Cabal +2 Pyro +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Pithing Needle
Without many ways to remove a resolved CB lock, you really have to rely on ways to prevent it from happening. PT is amazing in this matchup

Shardless
-2 daze/fow -2 Cabal -3 Probe
+2 Painful Truths +2 Strix +1 Grim Lavamancer +2 Pyro
I think some number of counter spells is needed here? If not, you can drop more counter spells to Keep Cabals/Probes

Delver (BUG/ Grixis/Maybe RUG)
-4 Daze/FoW -2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyroblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE +1 Darkblast +1 Dismember +2 Baleful Strix
I don’t really change my SB plan vs the different Delver variants. Vs BUG I think you can drop the last 2 probes and bring in Painful Truths, as they are typically a bit slower.

Stoneblade
-4 Daze/Fow -2 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer
Maybe: +2 Pyroblast?

Eldrazi
-2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Baleful Strix +1 EE
Grudge/EE to pop chalices. Dismember/Strix to kill their big dudes. I feel like if you wanted, you could drop some number of bolts/dazes/fow if you wanted to keep in Cabals. I’m unsure on if Cabals should be kept in in this matchup. They dump their hand so fast that Cabals would be dead very quickly.

Burn
-2 WL
+1 Cabal +1 Grim Lavamancer
Still unsure what else I want to bring in, w/this matchup. WLs are pretty useless.

DnT
-4 Daze -4 FoW
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Ancient Grudge +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Darkblast +1 Cabal
Bring in removal, and Cabal since they show you their cards. EE can be a board wipe as well.

Elves
-4 Daze
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 Darkblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE
Cabal to try and strip their hand before they can combo off. Bring in more removal.

Lands
-2 Daze -1 Cabal Therapy -1 Forked Bolt -1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +1 EE +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Surgical Extraction
I hate this matchup, I really am not sure if this is right lol.

Sneak and Show
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -1 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy

Reanimator
-1 Forked bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction

ANT
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 EE +2 Surgical Extraction +2 Pyroblast
EE can hit their petals/LEDs before they actually want to pop them? Maybe too narrow?

Stoneblade (Keep WL in vs Deathblade, maybe drop an extra FoW?)
-4 Daze/FoW -1 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer

Nic Fit
I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
-2 WL -3 Daze/FoW -1 Forked
+2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?

12 Post (Feels like I need to board the same as vs Combo, as they run Sneak as a secondary win con)
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction
Dazes get useless fast, do you guys think that the Dazes should stay in, and keep the bolts for reach?

Infect:
-2 Angler -4 Gitaxian Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 FoW/Daze
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Darkblast + 2 Baleful Strix +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember

[Tom T]

Gratz on your great finishes! What do you exactly dont like about the therapies? Before Noah won the SCG event with this list nobody played those MD but I think they're super awesome in the SB and really important there.

Would you play the 2 Pierce 2 Forked Bolt list instead?
You had really good results against Eldrazi, how went the games against them? Normally a tough MU without AD/Goyf.

Thanks!
I don’t like that discard is supposed to be good early game, but in the first turns you're still figuring out what you're up against. Those thoughts combines make Therapy kind of awkward and the Pyromancer synergy too cute to count as a valid upside. I'm not entirely sure what I'll cut them for but as I'm still pretty new to the deck I will test them a while longer before discarding them (pun intended).

I didn't test that build so I'm not sure. I'm fond of both Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce but didn't feel the need for more than one.

Eldrazi felt like it was 50/50. I boarded out all probes and therapies for the creatures and removal spells. I actively searched for wasteland and counterspells. Turn 1 creature seemed like it was a must as was a way to search for wasteland. I neglegted chalice if I was already ahead or winning and kept Force for more problematic cards.


Congratulations from my side, too!
Since you switched the Flusterstorm and Painful Truths: Would you bring the PT in in grindy matchups? Or was it rather against miracles? Because tbh I'd rather have a flusterstorm against miracles than PT, too. It's worse against midrange decks though I guess.

I'm also not a big fan of the CT mainboard, they're definitely powerful sideboard cards though. It's just that they're strongest in the early turns where you opponent still has enough cards in hands and no brainstorm up. Also they're not good against tempo-decks or decks with interchangeable threats. I really only like them against decks that don't commit to the board so you can attack them on a different angle besides counterspells.

The Painful Truths seems good against some grindy matchups, but not Tempo decks. I think the only time I want to play a CMC3-sorcery is when it's True-name Nemesis.
The Therapies seem good against combo and Stoneblade but I can't think of any matchup else I would like them against. The decks' strategy seems to prevent them from playing their cards and at that rate there's no point in removing them from their hand. I do like the multiple angle hate idea though so I will test Therapy and Thoughtseize in the future.


Great finishes Tom!

I'd like to get all your thoughts on my current boarding strategies. The Nic Fit thread seems to be trying to build a boarding database, via a spreadsheet, maybe that would be a good idea here.

I'm on Noah's stock list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/399409#paper

Miracles
-4 Daze -2 WL -1 Forked Bolt
+1 Cabal +2 Pyro +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Pithing Needle
Without many ways to remove a resolved CB lock, you really have to rely on ways to prevent it from happening. PT is amazing in this matchup.

I haven't tested this matchup enough yet. But my preliminary testing (5 pre and 10 post) results show that there are few cards that can really make a difference other than True-name Nemesis. Sometimes you have it, sometimes they have it. If they can build their mana and have a Top out they will win. Stifle doesn't seem to make a difference either. But yeah I need to test it more.


Shardless
-2 daze/fow -2 Cabal -3 Probe
+2 Painful Truths +2 Strix +1 Grim Lavamancer +2 Pyro
I think some number of counter spells is needed here? If not, you can drop more counter spells to Keep Cabals/Probes

This seems decent.

Delver (BUG/ Grixis/Maybe RUG)
-4 Daze/FoW -2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyroblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE +1 Darkblast +1 Dismember +2 Baleful Strix
I don’t really change my SB plan vs the different Delver variants. Vs BUG I think you can drop the last 2 probes and bring in Painful Truths, as they are typically a bit slower.

Also seems decent

Stoneblade
-4 Daze/Fow -2 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer
Maybe: +2 Pyroblast?

I don’t think you can go to 16 land as their manabase is usually more greedy than miracles and they might play wasteland of their own unless they play countertop which needs tundra when playing Mystic. I think Dismember is too narrow here.

Eldrazi
-2 Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismember +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Baleful Strix +1 EE
Grudge/EE to pop chalices. Dismember/Strix to kill their big dudes. I feel like if you wanted, you could drop some number of bolts/dazes/fow if you wanted to keep in Cabals. I’m unsure on if Cabals should be kept in in this matchup. They dump their hand so fast that Cabals would be dead very quickly.

I wanted to board out 4 probe and 2 therapy but had only 5 cards to bring in. I think the counterspells are needed here even though they get hosed by cavern of souls.

Burn
-2 WL
+1 Cabal +1 Grim Lavamancer
Still unsure what else I want to bring in, w/this matchup. WLs are pretty useless.

I boarded out probes for Flusterstorms, Darkblast (his brew had some wacky x/1s).

DnT
-4 Daze -4 FoW
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Ancient Grudge +1 EE +2 Painful Truths +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Darkblast +1 Cabal
Bring in removal, and Cabal since they show you their cards. EE can be a board wipe as well.

I think this is a hard matchup but haven't tested it yet.

Elves
-4 Daze
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 Darkblast +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 EE
Cabal to try and strip their hand before they can combo off. Bring in more removal.

I think they board out their combo card which make Therapy worse. I'm not sure what I would board here and haven't tested it yet.

Lands
-2 Daze -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Forked Bolt -2 Probe
+1 Pithing Needle +1 EE +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Painful Truths +2 Surgical Extraction
I hate this matchup, I really am not sure if this is right lol.

I don't think you'll be able to cast PT in this matchup.

Sneak and Show
-1 Forked Bolt -1 Daze -2 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy

I would remove Forked Bolt, Pyromancers, lightning bolt and Anglers out in that order.

Reanimator
-1 Forked bolt -1 Daze -4 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction

Same as Sneakshow

ANT
-1 Forked bolt -1 Daze
+1 Cabal Therapy +EE?
EE I think could do some work here, If they storm out on warrens, it wipes their Goblins. It can hit their petals/LEDs when they aren’t ready to go off? Maybe Surgical Extraction is a good bring in.

Bring in all interaction (except Grudge) and remove Forked Bolt, Young pyromancer, Angler and Lightning Bolt in that order. Surgical, discard, EE and extra counterspells are insane. Don't dilude your deck with threats.

Thanks! Answers are in bold.

[Jaytron]

Thanks for your thoughts on SB!

When you board out threats, do you board out all of them, if you are boarding them out?

For example if you prioritize removing Young P/Bolt/Angler vs Sneak/Reanimator.. do you board out All Young Pyros before moving on to Anglers? Are you ever worried about being too threat light in these matchups?

Seems like it's only combo: Sneak/Reanimator/Storm

[Tom T]

Thanks for your thoughts on SB!

When you board out threats, do you board out all of them, if you are boarding them out?

For example if you prioritize removing Young P/Bolt/Angler vs Sneak/Reanimator.. do you board out All Young Pyros before moving on to Anglers? Are you ever worried about being too threat light in these matchups?

Seems like it's only combo: Sneak/Reanimator/Storm

That depends on the card and matchup. I like Angler more against the Combo decks so in that case I'll remove all Pyromancer first. With Daze and Force against Delver I tend to keep some of each in as searching for either with Ponder or Brainstorm allows you to get the better one for the given in-game situation.

[Jaytron]

That depends on the card and matchup. I like Angler more against the Combo decks so in that case I'll remove all Pyromancer first. With Daze and Force against Delver I tend to keep some of each in as searching for either with Ponder or Brainstorm allows you to get the better one for the given in-game situation.

Do you also always keep all Dazes in, in the combo matchups, even if they quickly lose value?

[Tom T]

Do you also always keep all Dazes in, in the combo matchups, even if they quickly lose value?

Yes. With Gitaxian Probe they're awesome as you can see when Daze will lose value. Against Storm I think it's wrong to board them out regardless if they will lose value or not.

[Agrippa91]

I strongly disagree with boarding out Pyromancer against Combo over Angler. Fact is that Delver is still your fastest clock while DRS has the role clocking them, disrupting Storm's gy while you're able to hold up countermagic for the enemy's sorcery-speed actions. YP on the other hand is really good with Cabal Therapy and the reason you don't play Duress of Thoughtseize. He's also very unlikely to die which makes him even better in these matchups where the opponent hardly has removal.
Then again I only play 3 YPs and no TNN/Clique since these cards are too clunky with Stifle.

Personally against S&S I board
-2 Angler
-3 Bolts
-1 Forked Bolt
for
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy.

Against Storm I board the same cards, but get a Surgical Extraction instead of the Pithing Needle.

[Ltj999]

I strongly disagree with boarding out Pyromancer against Combo over Angler. Fact is that Delver is still your fastest clock while DRS has the role clocking them, disrupting Storm's gy while you're able to hold up countermagic for the enemy's sorcery-speed actions. YP on the other hand is really good with Cabal Therapy and the reason you don't play Duress of Thoughtseize. He's also very unlikely to die which makes him even better in these matchups where the opponent hardly has removal.
Then again I only play 3 YPs and no TNN/Clique since these cards are too clunky with Stifle.

Personally against S&S I board
-2 Angler
-3 Bolts
-1 Forked Bolt
for
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy.

Against Storm I board the same cards, but get a Surgical Extraction instead of the Pithing Needle.

I too agree with this. I auto board out TNN and both anglers vs combo. I usually board against storm like:

-1 TNN
-2 Angler
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Lightning bolt

+1 Cabal therapy
+2 Surgical
+1 Null Rod
+2 REB

[Jaytron]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I've changed my boarding notes as follows:

ANT
-1 Forked bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt (Taking out an extra bolt since I run v-clique instead of TNN)
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 EE +2 Surgical Extraction +2 Pyroblast

Sneak and Show/Reanimator
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction

IS surgical useful against Sneak and Show? They don't really use their GY until after they've gotten value?

Stoneblade (Keep WL in vs Deathblade, maybe drop an extra FoW?)
-4 Daze/FoW -1 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer

I have a few more to run by you guys:

Nic Fit
I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
-2 WL -3 Daze/FoW -1 Forked
+2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?

12 Post (Feels like I need to board the same as vs Combo, as they run Sneak as a secondary win con)
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction
Dazes get useless fast, do you guys think that the Dazes should stay in, and keep the bolts for reach?

Infect
-2 Angler -2 Daze/FoW?
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy
I'm unsure what to board out here. I feel like I want all my removal, but a good amount of countermagic as well. Hand disruption is also useful. I guess just 2 Daze out OTD, 1Daze/1FoW or 2FoW out OTP?

[Agrippa91]

I really don't like Surgical against Sneak&Show. Most of the time they'll go for their combo when it's really early. Surgical isn't good there except when you have enough counters when they go for it anyways. Surgicaling their stuff just seems like "win-more" to me. The card disadvantage might even come back to bite you when they go for it afterwards with their other win-con.

[Jaytron]

I really don't like Surgical against Sneak&Show. Most of the time they'll go for their combo when it's really early. Surgical isn't good there except when you have enough counters when they go for it anyways. Surgicaling their stuff just seems like "win-more" to me. The card disadvantage might even come back to bite you when they go for it afterwards with their other win-con.

Yeah, those were pretty much my thoughts as well.

[skyout]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I've changed my boarding notes as follows:

ANT
-1 Forked bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt (Taking out an extra bolt since I run v-clique instead of TNN)
+1 Cabal Therapy +1 EE +2 Surgical Extraction +2 Pyroblast

Sneak and Show/Reanimator
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction

IS surgical useful against Sneak and Show? They don't really use their GY until after they've gotten value?

Stoneblade (Keep WL in vs Deathblade, maybe drop an extra FoW?)
-4 Daze/FoW -1 WL -1 Spell Pierce
+1 Cabal Therapy +2 Painful Truths +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Pithing Needle +1 Grim Lavamancer

I have a few more to run by you guys:

Nic Fit
I feel daze gets useless fast, so I would do the following:
-2 WL -3 Daze/FoW -1 Forked
+2 Painful Truths +2 Baleful Strix +1 Cabal +1 Dismember
I've been back and forth on Surgical in this matchup. Surgicaling Vets seems great if you manage to counter one. Otherwise surgicaling them feels lackluster since they get value already. However, with most lists running Meren, or Recurring Nightmare, maybe it's worth it for that reason? Not sure on Cabal either, since they run a lot of one ofs? However, you can see/cabal their later threats before they can cast them. Dazes and WLs felt much more useless in the matchup. What are your guys' thoughts?

12 Post (Feels like I need to board the same as vs Combo, as they run Sneak as a secondary win con)
-1 Forked Bolt -2 Angler -3 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Surgical Extraction
Dazes get useless fast, do you guys think that the Dazes should stay in, and keep the bolts for reach?

Infect
-2 Angler -2 Daze/FoW?
+1 Pithing Needle +2 Pyroblast +1 Cabal Therapy
I'm unsure what to board out here. I feel like I want all my removal, but a good amount of countermagic as well. Hand disruption is also useful. I guess just 2 Daze out OTD, 1Daze/1FoW or 2FoW out OTP?

I think you're leaning on surgical way too much. I had a pro tell me after a match once that "surgical extraction should only come in if it can hit something that will immediately win you the game". The example that he used was something like lands where you would snag a loam and turn their engine off.

[Jaytron]

I think you're leaning on surgical way too much. I had a pro tell me after a match once that "surgical extraction should only come in if it can hit something that will immediately win you the game". The example that he used was something like lands where you would snag a loam and turn their engine off.

What are your suggestions?

It's in vs Reanimator and ANT, both of which use the GY (already decided that it's pretty dead against Sneak/Show). Reanimator is obvious to bring them in with.

ANT sort of uses the GY, but not too much. On the flip side I would get to keep both Anglers in, or more bolts.

12 post is the other deck I've considered bringing it in against. Not convinced I need it there either. Surgicaling a Show and Tell seems okay-ish. On the flip side, I would either get to keep more threats or bolts. I think originally I didn't bring them in. It seemed more important to stay aggro against 12post.

In the past I've had a bad habit of bringing Surgical in against too many things, I've been trying to trim that down.

[Agrippa91]

I think one has to be aware that Surgical is a card that could be anything you left in instead, e.g. a bolt. The only good play for Surgical is Cloudpost and a threat/show&tell, but therefore you must have defeated these threats already (via counter/wasteland). When you play out the matches though you'll realize that most of the time you get stuck with just a surgical in hand and your opponent goes for the combo while you're stuck with a dead card in hand.

Also what is the general consent of Pyroblast/Surgicals against Storm? I find these cards good, but narrow so I'm really glad I only have 1 of each in my sideboard, I don't know if I'd board in more.

What I did was merging my second Pyroblast/Surgical into Invasive Surgery: It's a great card against Combo, Lands and Miracles so I don't see any reason to have these narrow cards. This also frees up an additional sideboard slot.

I started playing ANT myself and I must say that I'm happy every time my opponent doesn't have an avtive drs because it means I can get for a way easier kill via PiF. Especially postboard without Ad Nauseam I'd have to actually cast 8-9 spells otherwise which can be quite hard.
I also found out that Stifle against ANT is good whenever they don't go for PiF or don't have a discard spell in their gy. Otherwise you just have to try to get them off a color, stifling lands only helps when they struggle on mana otherwise. (but still makes your dazes and wastelands actually do something).

Surgical goes a long way against ANT when they go for PiF: You can deny them a tutor if they need one or cut off a mana by getting a ritual. I also have surgicaled a discard spell on their upkeep when I only needed 1-2 turns and I had FoW in hand which they needed to get rid off.
You can also get cute and use surgical to get a card you know they have in their hand (when it's also in their gy) because you have a lot of information with probe/therapy/clique, but that's not the reason Surgical is boarded in.

[Jaytron]

I think one has to be aware that Surgical is a card that could be anything you left in instead, e.g. a bolt. The only good play for Surgical is Cloudpost and a threat/show&tell, but therefore you must have defeated these threats already (via counter/wasteland). When you play out the matches though you'll realize that most of the time you get stuck with just a surgical in hand and your opponent goes for the combo while you're stuck with a dead card in hand.

Also what is the general consent of Pyroblast/Surgicals against Storm? I find these cards good, but narrow so I'm really glad I only have 1 of each in my sideboard, I don't know if I'd board in more.

What I did was merging my second Pyroblast/Surgical into Invasive Surgery: It's a great card against Combo, Lands and Miracles so I don't see any reason to have these narrow cards. This also frees up an additional sideboard slot.

I started playing ANT myself and I must say that I'm happy every time my opponent doesn't have an avtive drs because it means I can get for a way easier kill via PiF. Especially postboard without Ad Nauseam I'd have to actually cast 8-9 spells otherwise which can be quite hard.
I also found out that Stifle against ANT is good whenever they don't go for PiF or don't have a discard spell in their gy. Otherwise you just have to try to get them off a color, stifling lands only helps when they struggle on mana otherwise. (but still makes your dazes and wastelands actually do something).

Surgical goes a long way against ANT when they go for PiF: You can deny them a tutor if they need one or cut off a mana by getting a ritual. I also have surgicaled a discard spell on their upkeep when I only needed 1-2 turns and I had FoW in hand which they needed to get rid off.
You can also get cute and use surgical to get a card you know they have in their hand (when it's also in their gy) because you have a lot of information with probe/therapy/clique, but that's not the reason Surgical is boarded in.
REB/Pyro seem questionable vs storm. I've been wondering the same thing myself.

For me the question becomes, would I rather have bolts/anglers instead? Angler being more of a threat, but I think they usually bring in some number of Chain of Vapor, correct?

Did some testing vs Reanimator and Infect tonight.

I don't know about you guys, but Pyroblast feels a little awkard in the matchup. It's really only good in counter wars. I guess that's all you need it in for. What do you guys think about Ancient Grudge to blow up needles targeting our DRS? It feels better than the last lightning bolt would be.

vs Infect

Cabal didn't feel super useful in the MU tbh. What are your guys' thoughts on Cabal vs Infect?

This is my boarding strategy now for Infect:
-2 Angler -4 Gitaxian Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 Fow/Daze
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Darkblast + 2 Baleful Strix +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember

[Luca Grease]

I don't know about you guys, but Pyroblast feels a little awkard in the matchup. It's really only good in counter wars. I guess that's all you need it in for.

Pyroblast is an obvious side in vs reanimator, imo. Not only is it useful in counter wars/stops their cantripping, it will also counter one of their main enablers (careful study) and Show and Tell, if they decide to bring that in to get around DRS/other postboard gy hate.

[Jaytron]

Pyroblast is an obvious side in vs reanimator, imo. Not only is it useful in counter wars/stops their cantripping, it will also counter one of their main enablers (careful study) and Show and Tell, if they decide to bring that in to get around DRS/other postboard gy hate.

Good point. Some of the lists I've been playing against bring in decay instead of the SnT package. In that case Pyroblast seems pretty narrow? I dunno. I could be wrong. Pyroblasting a Careful Study blind feels ok.

I've been doing a lot of thinking regarding the Infect MU


Cabal didn't feel super useful in the MU tbh. What are your guys' thoughts on Cabal vs Infect?

This is my boarding strategy now for Infect:
-2 Angler -4 Gitaxian Probe -2 Cabal Therapy -1 FoW/Daze
+1 Pithing Needle +1 Darkblast + 2 Baleful Strix +2 Pyroblast +1 Ancient Grudge +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember


On the flipside, you can keep the probe/cabal package, but ditch all the Fow/Dazes

Do we have enough removal to rely on just cabals to keep them off useful cards?

[Tom T]

Hey guys!
Yesterday I played another 63-player tournament with Noah's list (and a HUGE hangover).

2-1 UR delver with TITI
2-0 UWR Stoneblade with Bolt
2-1 Enchantress
2-0 Infect
ID
ID
T8: 2-0 Infect
T4: 1-2 Grixis Delver

I was pretty happy with the Cabals this time and would just change up the sideboard a little.

[Jaytron]

Hey guys!
Yesterday I played another 63-player tournament with Noah's list (and a HUGE hangover).

2-1 UR delver with TITI
2-0 UWR Stoneblade with Bolt
2-1 Enchantress
2-0 Infect
ID
ID
T8: 2-0 Infect
T4: 1-2 Grixis Delver

I was pretty happy with the Cabals this time and would just change up the sideboard a little.

Nice job again! What are you boarding strategies vs Enchantress/Infect/Stoneblade?

[Tom T]

Nice job again! What are you boarding strategies vs Enchantress/Infect/Stoneblade?

Enchantress:
-2 Cabal Therapy, + Explosives, +Pithing Needle

Infect:
-3 pyromancer, -2 Angler, + Pithing Needle, +Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast, +Dismember

Stoneblade:
-2/3 Force, -2/3 Daze, + Lavamancer, +Peedle, +Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast

[Jaytron]

Enchantress:
-2 Cabal Therapy, + Explosives, +Pithing Needle

Infect:
-3 pyromancer, -2 Angler, + Pithing Needle, +Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast, +Dismember

Stoneblade:
-2/3 Force, -2/3 Daze, + Lavamancer, +Peedle, +Ancient Grudge, +2 Pyroblast

Do you not like strix vs infect? You keep in all your probes and therapies? Do you feel threat light, dropping that many creatures?

Lavamancer feels really good against infect too, so far.

[Tom T]

Do you not like strix vs infect? You keep in all your probes and therapies? Do you feel threat light, dropping that many creatures?

Lavamancer feels really good against infect too, so far.

I didn't play any Strix yesterday, otherwise I would. I usually drop to 8 creatures (delver, deathrite) when playing against decks without removal (combo). I saw others disagreed with this approach and that's okay with me. To each his own.

[Jaytron]

I didn't play any Strix yesterday, otherwise I would. I usually drop to 8 creatures (delver, deathrite) when playing against decks without removal (combo). I saw others disagreed with this approach and that's okay with me. To each his own.

Ah, ok.

One more question, did you consider bringing Painful Truths in vs Stoneblade? Were you running them?

[Tom T]

Ah, ok.

One more question, did you consider bringing Painful Truths in vs Stoneblade? Were you running them?

I played Flusterstorm over Painful Truths but I would've boarded both of them (Painful Truths) in as Cabal Therapy and 141's combined with Painful Truths seems like a powerful strategy against that deck.

[Ltj999]

hey all a quick tournament report for all from a weekly.

List is the standard 2 cabal therapy, 1 pierce, 1 forked bolt build, with 3 pyro and a TNN. SB is also pretty stock for the current times, with -1 EE + 1 invasive surgery.

Round 1: Vs infect

G1: I probe turn 1 and he has a crap hand and I run him over.

SB: -2 therapy, -3 probe -1 daze, -1 spell pierce +2 pyroblast +1 darkblast +1 dismember +2 strix +1 ancient grudge
G2: its pretty close with him on the play. He has a become imense in hand which I'm playing around to the best of my ability keeping his graveyard low. Strix does some work this game soaking up an inkmoth. one line I don't play around is crop rotation into inkmoth become imense. Used DRS on my turn giving him an opening to fill his yard enough to play it. Punished.
G3: open with something like DRS, 2 bolts, delver, land, wasteland. draw a forked bolt for my first drawstep. Game is pretty much over before it begins. GG

Round 2: BUG delver
this match up can feel pretty rough at times, hym and decay can be a beating.
G1: he has a typical delver tempo draw keeping me off much of anything meaningful for much of the game. Delver flies. Goyf is big.

SB something like: -2 therapy, -2 probe, -1 FoW, -1 pierece + 1 dismember +2 Strix + 2 painful truths +1 lavamancer
G2: early I locked up the combat step up with a strix and a pyromancer and angler to his board of goyf and delver. He finds the golgari charm binning much of my board, but more importantly buffing goyf to be gigantic. I take some goyf beats, and go down to 2-3 from a painful truths. Finds me another angler to shrink the goyfs. turning my anglers into the abyss and he is at 4 life. GG
G3: 10 min left on the clock. I felt really solid as I had crafted this game pretty well. He lands an early bob thats able to get me to around 10. My whole game plan revolves around landing a pyromancer after playing some delvers and other stuff to get as much removal out of his hand as possible, so I can play a painful truths the same turn as the pyromancer. Am able to pull it off pulling me way ahead on cards with at some point along the way wasting him off green for a number of turns. He has a delver but I have the bolt for it. Board is a stalemate with him taking a bunch from his bob triggers but not finding anything super relvant along the way. He plays a 2nd bob for some reason and gets in bolt range. GG

round 3: "I hate blue.dec"
deck is some strange combination of pox and aggro loam? its WBG with vindicate, lili, pox, sink hole, chalice, loam, etc. ouch.

G1: I have turn 2 double delver and DRS. He decides to kill the DRS as the delvers arent flipped. Wrong choice, they flip next turn putting him on a 3 turn clock.

SB something like: -2 therapy, -3 probe, -1 forked bolt +2 surgical, +1 invasive surgery, +1 ancient grudge +2 painful truths
G2: mull a reasonable mix of lands and spells on 7 as its only threat is a TNN which feels to slow and folds easily to a lili. no cantrips either. End up punting on lands down to 4. Keep a no lander with DRS and probe. Bottom something irrelevant with the scry to draw into, a volc! perfect. I let him kill me with factory to see more of his deck.
G3: mull to 6 and keep a reasonable hand of delver, bolt, some countermagic, and lands. I get the early delver flip and start hitting him in the air. I daze a pox, and he untaps into mox diamond choke, I bolt him in response getting him down to 6. Untap draw..a bolt, with my tapped volc and my untapped sea. hit him to three. He slams liliana. so close, yet so far. GG

Round 3: reanimator

Game 1: Have the turn 1 DRS on the play. So hard for them to beat, game goes as expected

SB: -2 bolt, -1 forked bolt, -2 angler, -1 TNN +2 pyroblast +1 invasive surgery +2 surgical extraction +1 cabal therapy
Game 2: a little longer affair with him decaying a DRS into pithing needle on DRS. I waste keeping him off black. He bricks on lands for a while allowing me to sculpt my hand with tons of countermagic. Delver takes FOREVER to flip, but not as long as it took him to find black mana, giving me the time to find the counters.

Nice to finally feel like my reps with the deck have paid off, not necessarily just due to the record but I felt like I had a good sense of the lines to take with the deck and a better feel of how to evaluate which one was most optimal (at least more often than I had felt previously)

[Jaytron]

Nice job on your weeklies!

Have you noticed any "sequencing gotchas" that are just now occurring to you?

[Jaytron]

Had a rough run at a weekly. Got blown out hard by Jitte in different matches... didn't feel good.

How do you guys board against Aluren? It's an odd deck, because I feel like I want to bring in a good amount of removal, since they ARE a creature deck. But I can't really afford to board out much countermagic, because a resolved Aluren will just win them the game.

I think I did something like this:
-2 Gurmag Angler -1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Darkblast +1 Cabal Therapy

I thought about Surgical. Being able to Surgical Aluren after winning a counter war feels pretty game ending. They have a high density of artifact creatures, and they are also mostly blue. Maybe Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge are worth bringing in?

I also tried something different vs Reanimator:
-2 Gurmag -3 Bolt -1 Forked Bolt -1 Gitaxian Probe
+2 Surgical +1 Cabal Therapy +2 Pyroblast +2 Painful Truths

I felt like I lost to Reanimator when they ran us out of countermagic and the game got really grindy. Painful truths felt great when this was the case. I think we run enough countermagic to really push them into the grindy portion of the game. I've been thinking of bringing in Ancient Grudge to take care of opposing needles, what do you guys think?

[WashableWater1]

How do you guys board against Aluren? It's an odd deck, because I feel like I want to bring in a good amount of removal, since they ARE a creature deck. But I can't really afford to board out much countermagic, because a resolved Aluren will just win them the game.

I think I did something like this:
-2 Gurmag Angler -1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Darkblast +1 Cabal Therapy

I thought about Surgical. Being able to Surgical Aluren after winning a counter war feels pretty game ending. They have a high density of artifact creatures, and they are also mostly blue. Maybe Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge are worth bringing in?

Against Aluren, I like +1 ancient grudge, +2 REB and +X extra removal. I like taking out -2 angler, -X gitaxian probe. -2 therapy.

They're able to clog up the ground between Shardless agent and Recruiter, and the air with Baleful Strixes. This makes Angler quite a bad threat, and going wide with Pyromancer a little tougher. Therapy isn't amazing because the whole deck is made of value, so grabbing individual cards doesn't make a huge splash.

As for the combo side, REB/Pyroblast are the only way to break up the combo with one card once they land an Aluren. Aluren costs 4 mana, daze is very good against that. The game plan is to wasteland/daze them off of Aluren. Its not really worth bringing in Surgical, it doesn't win you the game and only does something if you're already ahead.

[pnutbutr]

First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

[Jaytron]

Against Aluren, I like +1 ancient grudge, +2 REB and +X extra removal. I like taking out -2 angler, -X gitaxian probe. -2 therapy.

They're able to clog up the ground between Shardless agent and Recruiter, and the air with Baleful Strixes. This makes Angler quite a bad threat, and going wide with Pyromancer a little tougher. Therapy isn't amazing because the whole deck is made of value, so grabbing individual cards doesn't make a huge splash.

As for the combo side, REB/Pyroblast are the only way to break up the combo with one card once they land an Aluren. Aluren costs 4 mana, daze is very good against that. The game plan is to wasteland/daze them off of Aluren. Its not really worth bringing in Surgical, it doesn't win you the game and only does something if you're already ahead.

Cool, I was thinking something along those lines. I kept in Cabals, and they felt super medium.

So I'd do something like:
-2 Angler, -2 Cabal, -2 Probe
+1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Darkblast, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Grim Lavamancer +1 Dismember?

I could also bring in Painful Truths, as I felt that my life total was fairly high most of the time. I don't think they have enough targets at the same CMC to bring in EE. Dismember is great just as removal, but they don't have any really big dudes I'd be super concerned with.


First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

It behooves you to play the deck you know best in most tournaments.

That being said, I don't think it's too hard to just pick up. Sequencing is complex sometimes, but it really boils down to using mana efficiently, landing a threat, and disrupting your opponents. There's somebody in this thread that switched from ANT I believe and has been having success with the list despite being new to the deck. He did have years of experience in the format in general though. Format knowledge is really important to Grixis Delver (as it is with most Legacy decks).

You could always test on Cockatrice or something.

[Agrippa91]

First off, just want to say that the recent posts in here with the tourney breakdowns have been really helpful. Thank you!

I think I already know the answer to this question, but I can't help myself. I'm going to be playing in a decent size event this weekend and I'm thinking about taking the deck for a spin. Currently, I only have significant practice with Miracles (semi-competent) and ANT (don't like the position in the meta).

How hard is Grixis Delver to pick up? I know there are tons of very subtle decisions with various corner case interactions, but would you say it's tougher to be even modestly successful with this deck than Miracles or ANT for the uninitiated? I'd love to test the deck out online, but I refuse to pay for wastelands and dazes before EMA comes out.

If you're familiar with Legacy as a format it's rather easy to pick up Grixis (and propably one of the reasons why it's so popular). You generally just play good cards in the current lists and you don't have to play stifle if you don't want to (which would be a card that'd need some practice or familiarity, e.g. by having played RUG).
Sometimes the deck just rides itself to victory, e.g. when you just draw enough countermagic against combo while landing a threat, when you land a young pyromancer and you get to untap (very much like dark confidant here) with it because your opponent doesn't have removal or when you play an angler against non-white decks and you opponent just can't deal with it.
Not saying that it's easy to master, knowing when to play especially your cantrips optimally is key to every delver deck (e.g. brainstorm generally gets better every turn you keep it in your hand).
It's a lot easier to play a delver deck that at some point just wins than a (non-Sneak&Show) combo deck where you can screw up your sequencing and just lose the game to yourself at some points.

[pnutbutr]

This is super helpful guys... Thanks!

[Ciubulu]

This is super helpful guys... Thanks!

Give xmage a try. I use it for testing. It has rules like mtgo but it's free

[Jandrosaurus]

Bit late but here's a quick report from a weekly win-a-box I attended last weekend. I went 3-1 and got 2nd out of 11 players.

Decklist:
Instant (19)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce

Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Young Pyromancer

Land (18)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (9)
1x Forked Bolt
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Baleful Strix
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Dread of Night
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Surgical Extraction

Round 1: bye. I'll take it!
(1-0)

Round 2 vs 12 Post
Game 1:
I don't remember some of the early turns but I was able to Wasteland a Cloudpost and counter a few of his early plays, while riding a Delver. The interesting part came when he was finally able to get enough mana to cast an Ulamog. My board was: flipped Delver, un-flipped Delver and Gurmag Angler, Usea, Usea, and Volc. I had a Lightning Bolt + land in hand and the opponent was at 9 life. In response to Ulamog, I bolted my opponent to 6, fearing the worst. Ulamog triggers and he exiles the flipped delver and... the Gurmag Angler. Pass. I reveal a Brainstorm to flip my Delver and swing in, opponent at 3. Cast Brainstorm and see: Lightning Bolt, Volcanic, Ponder. Exactsies! My opponent should have exiled both Delvers since he could just chump my zombie fish. I guess he wanted to swing in with Ulamog and was worried about a crackback with him at only 6 life?

Game 2:
Out: -2 Abrupt Decay, -4 Daze
In: 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Grafdigger's Cage (he was playing Green Sun's Zenith)
I basically drew the nuts with DRS, Wasteland, Daze, Usea, Fetch, Force, Delver. I was able to Waste his first couple of land drops, while swinging in with a delver flipped off Gitaxian Probe. On turn 3, I drew a Therapy and Probe him, seeing 3 Primeval Titans and not much else. He scooped it up after I 3-for-1'd him with only 2 land in play, neither of them Cloud/Glimmerposts
(2-0)

Round 3 and I realize the only other 2-0 is my buddy Zach on RUG Lands :( This is gonna hurt.
Game 1:
Lands does lands things and I can't get anything to stick to the board while he cycles Punishing Fires and Wastelands. He makes a 20/20.

Game 2:
Out: -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Daze, -2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Lightning Bolt
In: 1 Painful Truths, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Surgical Extraction, 3 Cabal Therapy
I'm not sure if this game went better or even worse but I got out to a good start with a flipped Delver and a DRS. DRS gets Punishing Fire and I quickly just lose to double Maze of Ith and looping Punishing Fires as I was only able to Wasteland 1 of his Groves. Sorry I don't remember much of his match as it wan't really me playing Magic so much as me getting my face beat in. I scooped it up once he had 2x Groves, Punishing Fire, and 2x Maze of Ith (one was a Thespian Stage copying his Maze). Rough one, for sure.
(2-1)

Round 4 vs my buddy Donny on ANT
Game 1:
I mull to 6, but keep a hand with Daze, Pierce, fetch, Force, Delver, Ponder. I scry a Daze and keep it on top. The early turns see me dazing and countering whenever countering the spell would leave my opponent with no or 1 mana left in his pool. I draw into a zombie fish to eat all the permission now in my yard and ride him and Delver to victory.

Game 2:
Out: -2 Gurmag Angler, -2 Abrupt Decay -1 Forked Bolt
In: 3 Cabal Therapy, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Grafdigger's Cage (for Past in Flames)
This game plays out much like the one before it. Not really anything of note except that I kept a permission-heavy hand and taxes his resources with Spell Pierce, timely Dazes, beats with Delver and Young Pyromancer tokens. The first few turns were filled with him casting Duress, and me countering his rituals until I eventually ran him out of resources and swung for lethal.
(2-0)

Overall, I feel like I played very well, but I also got a bit lucky on either favorable, or neutral matches (besides Lands, that is). Sometimes that's all ya need. This run also ended a string of 1-2's and 1-1-1's at my LGS's Tuesday Night Legacy so it felt especially good to see the reps are paying off.

P.s. Zach on RUG Lands took it, going 4-0. If you're curious to see his list, he wrote the Lands Primer over on MTGSalvation, you should check it out!

[Agrippa91]

First of all congratulations!
I don't agree with some of your sideboard choices though.

12-post (I guess he plays the UG version?):
- Pyroblast is really good against their show/tell backup plan, you might also just counter a brainstorm. Also Ancient Grudge helps you destroying random expedition maps, but most importantly pithing needle on wasteland (they sometimes even play some in the mainboard).
- Cut the 2 Baleful strix for these 2 cards, they're really bad. When blocking Titan you still take 5 damage and give them 4 lands (most likely loci), when trading with eldrazi even worse things happen.
- thumbs up for not bringing in Surgical Extraction!

RUG Lands:
- I'd strongly recommend leaving in the decays to target molten vortex and expedition most importantly.
- same with engineered explosives which seems ok
- Painful Truths just seems really greedy with cmc 3, this matchup is also not about card advantage
- Cabal Therapy also seems really bad since most of the time he either has stuff he plays on t1 (expedition, gamble), instant stuff (intuition, crop rotation) or irrelevant stuff (p-fire, loam).
- pyroblast against intuition seems fine (I know it's not great)
- Since the RUG versions I know play a lot of artifacts Ancient Grudge seems also fine, at worst you get some Mox Diamonds
- so overall I'd bring in 1 Grudge, 1 Explosives, 1 Needle, 1 Pyroblast and 1 Surgical for 1 Forked Bolt and 4 Dazes

I'd also recommend giving Invasive Surgery a try, it would also help your combo matchups (Show&Tell, Storm, Elves).

ANT:
- I first didn't believe how strong Surgical Extraction is but it's pretty much an additional Deathrite Shaman, most of the time denying the PiF-route by being able to hit a tutor or a ritual. I started playing ANT myself a while ago and can attest to that.
Past that there're the scenarios where you can see their hand via probe and eventually rip something out of their hand if they have the same card in their gy. Or you can get a look at their hand if they brainstormed in response to your cabal therapy! It's really a great card!
- Also Pyroblast is just in general a decent card against Storm. Sure it only hits cantrips but Storm needs a critical number of spells, even more so if it can't go off via PiF or Empty. Also hitting a Brainstorm so they can't change their hand helps your Therapies a lot.
- overall I'd cut 2 additional bolts for Surgical and Pyroblast.

Edit: I just found a recent youtube video of the Trollywood #11 where a guy called Pascal D. pilots a list very similar to yours (unfortunately couldn't find a decklist, but he plas Decay maindeck though he has at least 1 stifle as I saw when shuffling for game 2).
Just wanted to post it here because he played it really nicely and I really only could find one small mistake, can you guys find it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZJeP7m5Kz8

On a unrelated note: On the 15th I'm going to Frankfurt to participate in the MKM series. It's gonna be a relatively large European tournament so I'm super stoked as I unfortunately don't get the chance to participate in many events since I don't have a local community but only a buddy.
I'll definitely be playing all rounds and gonna write a tournament report here!

[Manipulato]

1st place after 9 rounds at the BOM Annecy with 302 players

WHITE Peter - Grixis Delver - Top 8 Legacy

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard 15
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyroblast
1 Envelop
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Winter Orb
1 Painful Truths
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

Rest of the top 8 can be seen here
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40.html?event=18&evt=18

[Jaytron]

Eldrazi got first.

The finals were belcher vs Eldrazi.

[noobslayer]

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.

[Manipulato]

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.

+1

[Agrippa91]

Why are you playing Envelop over Invasive Surgery?

[Jaytron]

I think he was implying he was first place after the swiss going into top 8.


+1

Oops. My bad.:D

[Hank Zhong]

Top 8'ed the Legacy showdown at GP New York this past Saturday with a standard list. There were over 100 players who showed up. 7 rounds of swiss, cut to top 8.

This is my first time playing the deck so I can definitely use some tips and feedback re: my sideboarding for each match up and a really interesting situation in G3 of my quarterfinal match.

I expected a ton of Eldrazi decks floating around, given this is a standard GP, and it is one of the cheapest Tier 1 decks you can build. Hence, the True Name instead of Clique and the Dismember instead of forked bolt MD.

MD:
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Young Pyro
2 Angler
1 True Name

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Therapy
1 Spell pierce
1 Dismember

8 Blue fetches
3 Volc
2 Sea
1 Trop
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Baleful Strix
1 Painful Truth
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Cabal Therapy

I typed up a whole tournament report then MTGthesource decides to log me out and delete everything I wrote the in past couple of hours :frown::frown::frown::frown:

I'll just list the match-ups and the SB plan, let me know if anyone's interested in any particular match:

R1 - RUGb Lands (Lose 0-2)

On the Play:

-4 Bolts
-1 Dismember
-2 Daze

+2 Needles
+1 Surgical
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+2 Invasive Surgery

I kept in therapy since the 4 color version has more spells and is slower than the straight RG version. Daze might still be better on the play, though, so I'm not sure about this one.

R2 - Eldrazi (Win 2-1)

On the Draw:

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Therapy
-2 Probe
-1 Ponder

+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

On the Play:

Same as draw, but I kept the spell pierce and took out one more ponder

The plan is to out tempo them, as they have more powerful threats in the late game. some cantrips came out so we don't get screwed by thorns too much.

R3 - Grixis Delver (Win 2-0)

On the draw:

-4 FOW
-4 Daze

+2 Strix
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+1 Painful Truth
+1 Explosive

Not sure what I would take out for dazes if there were a game 3 where I'm on the play, probably just some combo of probe/ponder/therapies.

R4 - Infect (Win 2-1)

On the Draw and on the Play:

-2 Angler
-1 True Name
-1 Trop
-2 Ponder

+2 Needles
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+2 Pyroblast

I dislike daze on the draw, but have found that one of the easiest way to lose is in the early game where you don't have enough mana to interact with them. But I can totally see cutting daze instead of ponder. Also explosive is an option, but I think it's too slow. Ancient grudge would've came in if I didn't have 2 needles already, which are way better because you don't have to hold up 2 mana to kill the inkmoth only when they activate it. The grudge just felt overkill, since we also have wastelands to deal with them.

R5 - Infect (Win 2-0)

See above

R6 - UR Delver (Win 2-0)

On the draw:

-2 FOW
-4 Daze
-1 Dismember

+2 Strix
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+1 Explosive

I like the 2 FOW for early interaction vs. stifle and whatnot on the draw. On the play, I would probably take out the FOW completely, -1 therapy -1 explosive and +4 Daze.

R7 - Mono red werewolf stompy and 8 moons (Win 2-1)

On the Draw:

-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Therapy
-2 Probe
-1 Ponder

+1 Needles
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Explosives
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

On the Play:

Same as draw, but I kept the spell pierce and took out one more ponder


QF - Burn (Lose 1-2)

On the Draw:
-2 Probe
-1 Dismember
-3 wasteland

+2 Invasive surgery
+1 Therapy
+1 Explosive
+1 Grim
+1 Strix

On the play:

-2 Probe
-1 Dismember
-3 wasteland

+2 Invasive surgery
+1 Therapy
+1 Grim
+2 Strix

This was the hardest SBing all day. I swayed back and forth on bringing in needle just for lavamancer but decided against it since we have our own, but in hindsight, I should've bought it in. I ended up losing g2 to getting burned out by lavamancer activations =(

i also wasn't sure if I shouldtake out all 4 probes, since I need them for therapy to be more effective. In the end I cut 2, but it never came up during the match.

[Agrippa91]

Congratulations to you, too!
Against Burn I dislike Gitaxian Probe personally since it's just too clunky because you almost never want to play life (unless you have a nut draw) and it's just too slow otherwise. The first card to name is almost always PoP though while with the flashback you can often times get a Fireblast (which they won't play unless they have tons of lands), so the probes aren't really necessary in my experience.
I also feel weird about boarding out so many Ponders since I'm pretty much always happy to have one in your starting hand, you never know what you might encounter and which answers you have to dig for.

[WashableWater1]

Gitaxian Probe has been a huge point of contention for me with this list. I've been running 3 probes and a second spell pierce for a while, in both my Therapy and Abrupt Decay Grixis builds.

The reasoning is that while Probe is a powerful card when combined with Therapy, Angler or Pyromancer, on its own it is not particularly powerful. Its still worth a slot, but drawn in multiples it quickly becomes a liability.

The main liability is for mulligan decisions. An opening hand with 2 Probes in it is difficult to evaluate because you essentially have a 5 card hand + 2 random cards from your deck rather than knowing all 7 of the cards that are going to be in your hand.

The secondary liability is the life loss becoming a factor. 2 life to draw a card is usually not a big deal. However, when you draw Probe off Probe, or have 2 Probes to cast, 4 life can be very big in games that come down to a race.

Does this make sense? Am I undervaluing Probe? Keep inn mind that I'm not trying to claim that Probe is a bad card or that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'm trying to argue that the fourth Probe is the weakest card in the deck, and that one extra disruptive card is more powerful than it.

[Ltj999]

Gitaxian Probe has been a huge point of contention for me with this list. I've been running 3 probes and a second spell pierce for a while, in both my Therapy and Abrupt Decay Grixis builds.

The reasoning is that while Probe is a powerful card when combined with Therapy, Angler or Pyromancer, on its own it is not particularly powerful. Its still worth a slot, but drawn in multiples it quickly becomes a liability.

The main liability is for mulligan decisions. An opening hand with 2 Probes in it is difficult to evaluate because you essentially have a 5 card hand + 2 random cards from your deck rather than knowing all 7 of the cards that are going to be in your hand.

The secondary liability is the life loss becoming a factor. 2 life to draw a card is usually not a big deal. However, when you draw Probe off Probe, or have 2 Probes to cast, 4 life can be very big in games that come down to a race.

Does this make sense? Am I undervaluing Probe? Keep inn mind that I'm not trying to claim that Probe is a bad card or that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'm trying to argue that the fourth Probe is the weakest card in the deck, and that one extra disruptive card is more powerful than it.

I think probe is a fantastic tool of the deck. Most delver decks want probe, but Grixis is really the only one that can realistically support it due to its synergy with pyromancer and cabal therapy. I find it almost never a dead draw and the lifeloss is usually pretty minimal. If I find multiples in my hand it then becomes my go to FoW pitch card. Knowing our opponents hand is value that is hard to underestimate, not only to combo with cabal therapy, but how to use our wastelands and shape our game plan, which is key in Grixis due to the diversity of threats we can present.

I love probe, and was playing 3 at some point eventually going back to 4 and really haven't been tempted to go back. That being said its often a card I cut in the grindy match ups. If I'm pulling my cabal therapies out of the deck post board, I'm also nearly guaranteed to pull at least 2 probes out as well.

[Agrippa91]

I think 4 probes is propably a must for the versions that run cabal therapies. Hell, Noah even plays Vendilion Clique for additional ways to look at your opponent's hand.
I agree though that having multiples in the opening hand is really bad, also later on you're often forced to pay life even for topdecked probes because you don't know if and which of your mana you'll need which makes them either punishing or slow.
I went back to 3 with my stifle version and am super happy with it. I also shaved the list down to 3 YP and 3 therapies in the board.

[maraxusofkelds]

Quick question, are there any threats or situations that warrant flashing back cabal therapy and saccing your only threat on the board? Ive sometimes sacced a delver to hit a tarmogofy in hand because I knew i didn't have any counters left and it woulda been big enough to dodge lightning bolt. Always been wondering if that was a correct play or not.

[Jaytron]

Quick question, are there any threats or situations that warrant flashing back cabal therapy and saccing your only threat on the board? Ive sometimes sacced a delver to hit a tarmogofy in hand because I knew i didn't have any counters left and it woulda been big enough to dodge lightning bolt. Always been wondering if that was a correct play or not.

Sounds like the correct play to me.

I think sacrificing your only threat for cards that would otherwise shut you out of the game is fine. You should be able to find another with how many cantrips the deck runs.

[Agrippa91]

I do sac something like a delver or a shaman if I can either get a 2-for-1 of an at least mediocre card, if it's a must-answer that I can't otherwise deal with or if I have too many creatures against combo. Getting things like one removal spell out of your opponent's hand is generally bad though because you'd rather have them invest the mana and you still have the card.
In case of your delver it can be a decent play if you're both still at a very high life total, but since you don't even have to kill the goyf if you're ahead on board because delver has flying there's no general answer. I'd lean to a "no" though since you'd rather have them spend mana for a goyf AND a removal spell to get into a position you feel no longer comfortable in.

[WashableWater1]

Quick question, are there any threats or situations that warrant flashing back cabal therapy and saccing your only threat on the board? Ive sometimes sacced a delver to hit a tarmogofy in hand because I knew i didn't have any counters left and it woulda been big enough to dodge lightning bolt. Always been wondering if that was a correct play or not.

If you're looking for a general heuristic, if the threat you take out will kill you before you can kill them, then it is likely correct. If your threat will kill them before they kill you, it doesn't seem like the correct move.

Obviously there is a lot of data to consider here, like what happens if they draw into removal etc., but in general "can I ignore it" is my first response to a threat. It seems like you're worried about not being able to answer the goyf down the line, but as long as you consider "ignore it" in your decision tree, I believe you should be able to make the correct choice.

[Jandrosaurus]

First of all congratulations!
I don't agree with some of your sideboard choices though.


Never followed up with this, thanks for your analysis, helps lots.

[Sibelius]

Top8 Tournament report and deck list from Peter White, undefeated in the Swiss of Bazaar of Moxen Annecy (300 + players) a week ago.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/2016/05/16/getting-greedy-in-annecy-bazaar-of-moxen-top-8-report/

Sib

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!
Just came home from Frankfurt. I didn't do super well, but got 82nd of 412 with 6-4 which is fine for me since I unfortunately don't have the chance to play Legacy very often. I'd still like to share my tournament report with you since (besides tons of fun) I had some really interesting matches.
I played the same list I have in my signature.

So I started with the Trial on Saturday at 2 (everything was like really delayed because of over 600 Modern players) so we got squeezed in with 6 people per table in every possible location in the house they could find.

Round 1: Elves
I kept a brutal hand with Delver, DRS and YP otp, my opponent mulliganed to 6 and kept on the top.
I led with DRS, my opponent as well.
T2 I play Delver and Pyromancer while he creates 6-7 creatures on his side, he plays a Natural Order without open mana which I daze.
I create a bunch of tokens on my turn and hold up stifle, my opponent goes for GSZ=8 on his turn and gets a behemoth which I stifle. He attacks and I chump with a token.
The rest of the game I fly in with Delver while preventing him from attacking profitably with his 1-1s. There're almost no creatures in the yard and I bolt for the win, stifling his last drs-activation for life.

Fortunately Elves was the latest thing I tested against so my sideboarding was already thought of:

-4 Daze
-Spell Pierce
-4 Stifle (even though it was insane in that game)

+1 Pithing Needle (I think especially postboard it is crucial to stop his value with symbiote-visionary and aggression with ranger-drs since most players go down on NOs)
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Fire Covenant

Game 2 we both keep 7 and he leads with bayou nettle sentinel. Though this smells like weakness I don't waste but ponder finding invasive surgery.
He plays birchlore rangers, another sentinel, heritage druid and wirewood symbiotes. I force an Elvish Visionary (because I still have surgery).
Next turn I play drs and am forced to counter a gsz with cmc=2 with the surgery to prevent his value engine.
I then play a YP and create a bunch of tokens with ponder finding fire covenant which I leave on top, my opponent thank god has a lot of mana, but nothing and just attacks me down to 14 playing only a land.
On my turn I play Fire Covenant for 6, killing his board. He chooses not to return anything with symbiote bust just concedes though he still had 14 life (I had YP and 4 tokens).

In win 2-0 for a clean 1-1-0 start in the trial.

Round 2: Show & Tell

I'm otp and I have to mulligan a hand with only wasteland, my opponent keeps 7. I draw a hand with 2 gitaxian probes, daze and ponder and 2 DRS and think that 3 looks (scry) should give me a land.
Fortunately I had delta on top and with Probe I saw Brainstorm, Probe, Force, Spell Pierce, Overmaster and Griselbrand with only Scalding Tarn as the mana source. I play DRS and pass.
End of turn he brainstorms, finds a second land and passes.
I land my second deathrite and cast angler bringing the opponent down to 9 with FoW and Daze backupover the next 2 turns.
He plays Ancient Tomb and Overmaster which I daze so he can't play S&T but he just doesn't pay and plays S&T. I don't Force since I know that he'll be able to force back. I bring in deathrite which could outrace griselbrand, unfortunately he drew emrakul. He's at 7!
Here my ponder last turn bites me: I didn't think about the fact that I could bolt and deathrite him next turn when he plays ancient tomb, so I left Brainstorm over Lightning Bolt on top of my library which is a pity because I would've had exactsies. That hurt!
Also if I wasn't at 14 already due to the 2 Probes I could've saved Volcanic Bolt with FoW-backup for the next turn but as it was I just died to Emrakul next turn, even finding a stifle with BS.

I boarded
-2x Gurmag Angler
-4x Lightning Bolt
-1x Forked Bolt

+1x Pithing Needle (Sneak attack, Scalding Tarn and Grim Lavamancer)
+1x Pyroblast
+1x Hydroblast (some lists don't play Pyroclasm but Kozilek's return now which is bad, but seeing Overmaster made me bring it in.)
+1x Invasive Surgery
+3x Cabal Therapy
(no Krosan Grip because Stifle is good vs. Sneak Attack which costs too much anyways, Defense Grid is also clunky and makes our therapies better because he can only brainstorm for 3, often we can even pay the 2 mana)

Second game I keep a hand with Delver, YP, Daze, Ponder, Wasteland and 2 fetchlands.
I start with Delver of course, the opponent with Island
I flip invasive surgery next turn, but play YP nevertheless to present a quicker clock (they can't always have a t2 show/tell with backup for daze).
Well, at least this time he had it and plays Ancient Tomb into S&T with FoW-backup.
That didn't hurt as much because I knew I would play like this again, my opponent admitted that he just kept a hand with 3 Show&Tell, Force of Will, ancient tomb and island and topdecked the emrakul.

0-2 in an imo favored matchup, 1-1-0 in total now.

Round 3: BUG TITI

I have a bad memory of faces, otherwise I would've recognized the face my friend played last round: BUG TITI
In case you're not familiar with the deck: It Thing in the Ice, EtB-creatures like strix and snapcaster, cabal therapy and bug standard good stuff.

My opponent shows me that he has DRS, Strix, TITI, decay, therapy, verdant catacombs and bayou in hand
I cast delver, daze his drs, play my second delver and he plays strix.
My delvers don't flip for six turns while I waste and stifle his mana, but out of some reason he doesn't block any of the unflipped delvers until he's at 11.
He forces my YP, but is just too slow and the 2 delvers kill him (he doesn't get the mana to cast decay because he just drew another usea while I wasted bayou).

I boarded:

-4 Force of Will
-2 Gitaxian Probe

+1 Pyroblast
+1 Divert
+3 Decay
+1 Fire Covenant
No Tropical, it's only there against dedicated wasteland decks and against decks that have drs-hate[/I]

Second game he just plays a Tropical and passes. I have a Wasteland and know I could could set him back one turn, but would rather get a usea, so I just play Delver and pass.
He plays a Bayou and passes, trying to disfigure my delver on my upkeep after I reveal brainstorm, but I spell pierce and waste his blue mana (which seems the most important color in his deck).
He doesn't have another land but manages to hit abrupt decay with his cabal therapy seeing the stifle. That doesn't help him though since over the next turns I play 2 more lands and even daze his thoughtseize, always holding up a mana for stifle.
My opponent is super salty and goes to discard multiple times after I stifled his second land, that said I still had Pyroblast, Divert, Stifle and double-daze up when I finally won the game via Deathrite and Delver.

Postboard I saw he boarded out FoW even though he saw stifle. Bad move for such a slow deck, he should've rather boarded out the Therapies or Thoughtseizes imo.

I win 2-0 and am now 2-1-0

Round 4: Lands

I 'm otp and keep a hand with double delver, 2 fetches, daze and spell pierce. How can I ever lose this game?
Unfortunately my opponent starts with Mox Diamond. Knowing very well that he's baiting me I dazed figuring that I don't use more than 1 mana every turn anyways. I should've let it resolve for a second turn delver with spell pierce open though.
Anyhow, my opponent followed it up with exploration and grove, over the next turns he had 2 more groves and 2 punishing fires. I don't draw a single wasteland but drs who perhaps could've saved me if I still had my countermagic (unlikely though). I give up at 26 life after my opponent has his combo while being down at only 16 life.

Lands! Finally a true test to my sideboard! I board:

-4 Daze
-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Forked Bolt

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Tropical Island

I decide to be otp and kept 7 including probe, drs, decay, stifle and fetches. T1 probe reveals P-Fire, Mox Diamond, Manabond, Chalice, Taiga, Dark Depths and Waste.
He leads with a t1-chalice which I destroy with decay. He Punishing Fires the Deathrite and plays a gamble resulting in life from the loam hitting the gy.
I still play another Shaman and with the help of stifle, wasteland and shaman he needs a lot of time (even with manabond and 3 cards from Loam) not able to get enough lands to combo. I'm able to waste his first and stifl his thespian's stage and won barely by ponering with my volcanic for usea so I could drain him for the last 2 damage.

Game 3 my opponent leads with a fetch for basic forest and plays Riftstone Portal, I get to ponder and land a YP+probe (Loam, Crop Rotation, P-Fire, Maze, Dark Depths, Glacial Chasm) on turn 2,on t3 my opponent plays Riftstone Portal and Crop Rotation for Thespian's Stage. With my tokens I get him down to 10, but his Glacial Chasm stops that so I used Invasive Surgery to counter Life from the Loam that targeted the freshly milled Tabernacle. I later realized that I propably could've waited a turn and sacrificed the YP to the trigger to get delirium, since I had 2 stifles in hand I might've been able to stop his combo until I draw a wasteland. I wouldn't have anyways, my opponent proceeds to make a 20-20 after going to 8 and 4 with Glacial Chasm.
Here I made another mistake by paying 4 mana for YP and his tokens instead of letting one get destroyed so I could delay thespian's stage with stifle. Not that it would've helped, I'd have needed a wasteland in time.

lost 1-2 for a desillusioning 2-2-0

Round 5: Elves

I'm lucky enough to get a t1 delver and fly over the elves 6 times forcing a GSZ leaving his Ooze and Deathrite no fodder to negate his losses while YP holds the ground.

Given that I didn't show stifle to my opponent and had really good experience with it against Elves so far while Cabal Therapy can be a good card I decided to spontaneously try something new. I boarded as in Game 1, but switched 1 Probe and 3 Cabal Therapy and left in the stifle.

Game 2 was sobering: The list I tested against didn't have Progenitus in the sideboard, I thought it was kinda outdated and people didn't like it. Well, the opponent had it and nor my YP nor my Gurmag Angler could help me, I lost to a G2 NO. Gaea's Cradle is a good card.

I sided out Stifle again putting in Therapies as before. Stifle seems really good against Craterhoof G1, but seems to get pretty bad in games 2 and three when they have Wurm, Ruric Thar or Progenitus.

In game 3 my t1 probe revealed a weird hand: Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Nettle Sentinel, GSZ, Elderscale Wurm, Windswept Heath. Apparently my Opponent was taking his NO plan very seriously! I started with DRS as did my opponent, My t2 YP pondered, but found only a bunch of lands and I was force to shuffle.
My opponent follows up with Quirion Ranger, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and GSZ for Dryad Arbor to get my brainstorm, invasive surgery and my second YP.
I play Cabal Therapy on my own (which he didn't take) and name Nettle Sentinel, but unfortunately I see an Visionary and Symbiote in his hand!
Flashing back for Visionary I hope I draw a second Cabal Therapy soon.
My opponent powers out his Elderscale Wurm 2 turns after though without me being able to anything about it, I have 4 tokens and YP and my opponent doesn't attack even though he thoughtseizes me going to 8 life seeing only a polluted delta.
Fine with me, I play to my outs aaaand...
topdeck fire covenant, playing 11 of the 12 life I still had after his deathrite activation. I then waste his bayou leaving him with no permanents in play and he gives up showing me he only had forest and misty in hand.

2-1 win for 3-2-0 in total.

Round 6 against lands:

My opponent plays fetch into taiga gamble (loam hits the yard), I lead with Gitaxian Probe seeing Wasteland, Karakas, Grove of the Burnwillows, Dark Depths, 2 Moxes.
I play a t1-delver and pass
My opponent dredges, finds a stage, plays his moxes and thespian's stage, apparently I don't have long to live.
I hit a DRS and and play him and a polluted delta, my opponent dredges and lays out his combo and activates it. I stifle.
I end up topdecking a wasteland that and eat his loam with DRS. He ends up not drawing another one immediately and I eat the Dark Depths.
He doesn't topdeck out and I win soon after.

Sideboard as above (Game 4)

In Game 2 my opponent fetches for a forest and passes, I play a Deathrite on t1.
Turn 2 my opponent plays another fetchland for Taiga and plays Loam onto his islands.
I had a surgical in my starting hand and debate wether I want to eat the loam "for free", but figured out he has to have another one. Turns out I was right. His hand had a bunch of lands and crop rotation besides the loam. In his deck I saw no Crucible, but 4 bobs and Zuran Orb.
He topdecks a (now pretty useless) exploration and plays that.
The rest of the game turns out to be surprisingly exciting:
He ends up topdecking Dark Depths and starts working on it without me finding a wasteland, then plays Bob. I have Force, but know I have to use it for the Crop Rotation, so I brainstorm (to find either wasteland or abrupt decay).
I find a decay and use it on the bob on my next turn, force the crop rotation and have at one point krosan grip as well as decay in my hand.
Since he still had his Exploration out I figured I might as well Grip that since I to that point couldn't think of any other card I could use it on. Well, he proved me wrong when 2 turns after he drew Zuran Orb and played it.
Just a massive fail on my part: Without Bob there's just no reason to kill the Exploration, it was absolutely useless.
Thankfully he ran only sacked a bunch of lands, but even with Zuran Orb my DRS killed him quicker than he could remove his ice counters (I also eventually drew the Wasteland).

2-0 against lands, who would think that?

So I went 4-2-0 in total since we decided to go home without playing the last 2 rounds (we still had to drive with bus and train for over an hour and it was already late) so we were fit for the next day where the Grand Trial started.
All in all I did better here than in the actual tournament even though I had some pretty nasty matchups in lands and elves. To be honest though my opponents (especially the elves players) seemed rather inexperienced, this changed the next day though when I went into the actual event to face 10 rounds of Legacy for 13.5 hours straight.
I hope you look forward to my report of the Main Event, I'll get to it in the next couple of days, propably I'll divide it into two posts.

Feel free to criticize any mistakes I made, I'd also appreciate a general feedback on how tiresome the reading was structure-wise.

[Ltj999]

Wanted to post a tournament report from a Legacy FNM last week. Went 3-1 solid for 4th place due to breakers. List is pretty stock 2 therapy, 1 pierce, 1 forked bolt main. Same SB as Noah
Walker with -1 EE +1 invasive surgery (which as a side note I’ve been liking more and more over time)

But enough, Let’s roll.

Round 1: Vs Enchantress

I think this match up is pretty rough, and it isn’t helped any by mulling to 5 G1 as a result of not seeing any color producing lands until my 5 card hand of, DRS, Bolt, FoW, 2 lands. Snap keep.

Needless to say I get steam rolled after getting some respect by naming elephant grass turn two with cabal therapy (gots to keep it real) after seeing a Mirri’s Guile turn one.

SB???? -1 forked bolt, -1 lighting bolt +1 needle +1 cabal therapy

My general plan against them is to keep their draw engines off the table. I keep a solid hand on 7, with DRS, 2 cabal therapy and some creatures. He opens with Leyline (…). I don’t have counters at the right time which leads him to soon be ancestraling himself multiple times per turn. I get him down to around 3-4 life through elephant grass before he finds RIP + Helm and I have no answer. GG

Thought of bringing in Ancient Grudge for Rip Helm, but thought better of it as I had assumed he would side it out for game 2. Speaking with him after he didn’t deny that no rip helm post board is common, but also said he would have taken a different line if it look like I was repping grudge instead of tapping out every turn to bring the beats through elephant grass.

Round 2: Vs Bug delver.

G1: He stumbles on mana after I bolt his DRS. On turn 2 he actually wastes me allowing me for a turn 3 angler with Daze back up. Along the way I get a look at his hand of Goyf, stifle, daze, cantrips, I say something dumb like "what a strange grixis list..." to instantly realize he is on BUG, Duh. Pretty happy to see stifle as the Hymn version with more Liliana seems to be a more rough match up than the lower to the ground bug delver which cant go over the top of us as much.

SB on the draw: -2 cabal therapy, -1 Fow, -2 Daze, -2 probe, +2 painful truths, +2 strix, +1 lavamancer, +1 dismember

G2: He lands an early delver, and plays the disruption game well. Goyf is big. Wasteland is a thing.

G3: I have the on the play nut draw of turn 1 DRS, followed up by: bolt your DRS, play my delver, wasteland you. GG

Round 3: Vs miracles

I don’t think he had a ton of experience with the deck as the manabase was shocks instead of duals. Granted I actually think this doesn’t hurt the deck very much. My general plan vs miracles is for the most part only play one threat at a time, and usually just let their removal spells kill my creatures saving my counters for counterbalance, and anything that could be totally game winning from their side of the table (read: counterbalance)

G1: He keeps a slow hand that becomes even slower after I force a turn 1 top. I follow that up into an early pyromancer at some point finding a cabal therapy to shred his hand even further.

SB on the draw: -1 forked bolt, -2 lighting bolt, -3 daze, +2 pyroblast, +2 painful truths, +1 P-needle, +1 invasive surgery

G2: I can’t remember this game well except me trying to operate through a blind counterbalance for most of the game. I get him pretty low, landing on threat at a time. With him on the verge of stabilizing most of the game. I eventually land a drs while he is at 2 to seal the deal.

In retrospect (after the tournament) I’m on the fence with my SB plan vs miracles wondering if I should bring in the 3rd cabal therapy for the 4th daze (just b/c daze loses value so quickly in this match up) and also finding room to bring in the lavamancer just as another threat.

Round 4: Miracles again, piloted by Jarvis Yu. DISCLAIMER: games 2 and 3 of this match totally blended together, so while I feel pretty accurate in the plays that happened, while typing it up I realized that I'm pretty confused if some of the plays weren't switched regarding what game they happened in. Long day going to FNM after work!

I think after introducing myself and seeing his turn one play I groan and laughingly say something along the lines of “a bad match up and a good player, perfect.” Plus his deck was sweet with lots of Japanese(?) Cards. Small win he wasn't on lands that night. phew!

G1: Typical miracles back and fourth. He pulls off a pretty good read of 2 terminus back to back clearly communicating to me he knows my game plan of moderating my threats (not that this delver plan is all that sophisticated). Although he didn’t have the counter top lock he lands a jace without me having any creatures in hand or a way to check the Jace. Scoop for time.

Sb same as above.

G2: I don’t remember exactly what my opener was, but I had two painful truths, and a DRS in it. Snap keep, truths is the nuts in this match up. Its pretty back and fourth with angler doing some work (as I remember it). He struggles to find a top making is draws pretty clunky (cant remember if this got forced or he just didn’t find one). I remember at some point him playing council’s judgment on one of my creatures. I think I knew at the time he had flusterstorm in hand, but I also had invasive surgery and spell pierce. I didn’t have delirium yet, so the line I took was spell pierce his judgment, letting him flusterstorm to get the spell pierce in my yard. This pays off (in a sense) as I un-tap play another threat and he reveals terminus. I get a bit hasty (was pretty excited about my line of play working out and feeling way ahead countering the terminus + Sugical) and show him the envelop just before he pay’s for it. He pauses and says something that he may not want to pay, but eventually just gives it to me given that its just an FNM (thanks Jarvis!) he says something about me being more careful with my triggers. You got that right I will! He eventually finds an answer to my threat and has double counterbalance in play. I play a ponder with bolt in hand, he reveals to counterbalance showing me a sudden shock he had put back on top several turns before, and goes to fetch in response of the second counterbalance trigger. I bolt him in response to the fetch for lethal.

Sb: I think I took out the 4th daze for the lavamancer here.

G3: I start off turn one volc into delver, probing him revealing a hand of terminus, counterspell, and some other stuff, with his only land being a volc. I have a wasteland in hand, but he peels a strand into island into cantrip for his first turn. The middle point of the game is fuzzy, I remember him being a bit land locked, forcing him to get some non-basics allowing me to keep wasteland live. He struggles to get past 3 mana, but we are still going back and fourth trading removal for creatures. A turning point of the game comes when I know he has 2 counterspell and a jace in hand with 3 lands in play. He finds a counterbalance, which I counter, untap play a needle naming Jace. I’m trying to play around his counterspells as much as possible, but eventually I just start slamming threats into them. I finally resolve a pyromancer but he has found a staticaster. I play an angler next turn, untap, and cabal therapy to check his hand to make sure my play of pyroblasting his staticaster to swing in for lethal doesn’t get blown out. GG. He tells me after the match that he had at one point 3 jace in hand, all turned off from needle.

I'm really starting to feel in a groove with this deck, but despite my success vs miracles that night I do need to seriously test the match up more, not in the sense of understanding my game plan vs them, but I felt really lost trying to read their play patterns along the way. I felt like I got lucky in key moments, one being a sportsmanlike opponent. Any tips for the match-up would be more than welcome.

Thanks!

[Jandrosaurus]

Wanted to post a tournament report from a Legacy FNM last week. Went 3-1 solid for 4th place due to breakers. List is pretty stock 2 therapy, 1 pierce, 1 forked bolt main. Same SB as Noah
Walker with -1 EE +1 invasive surgery (which as a side note I’ve been liking more and more over time)

But enough, Let’s roll.

Round 1: Vs Enchantress

I think this match up is pretty rough, and it isn’t helped any by mulling to 5 G1 as a result of not seeing any color producing lands until my 5 card hand of, DRS, Bolt, FoW, 2 lands. Snap keep.

Needless to say I get steam rolled after getting some respect by naming elephant grass turn two with cabal therapy (gots to keep it real) after seeing a Mirri’s Guile turn one.

SB???? -1 forked bolt, -1 lighting bolt +1 needle +1 cabal therapy

My general plan against them is to keep their draw engines off the table. I keep a solid hand on 7, with DRS, 2 cabal therapy and some creatures. He opens with Leyline (…). I don’t have counters at the right time which leads him to soon be ancestraling himself multiple times per turn. I get him down to around 3-4 life through elephant grass before he finds RIP + Helm and I have no answer. GG

Thought of bringing in Ancient Grudge for Rip Helm, but thought better of it as I had assumed he would side it out for game 2. Speaking with him after he didn’t deny that no rip helm post board is common, but also said he would have taken a different line if it look like I was repping grudge instead of tapping out every turn to bring the beats through elephant grass.

Round 2: Vs Bug delver.

G1: He stumbles on mana after I bolt his DRS. On turn 2 he actually wastes me allowing me for a turn 3 angler with Daze back up. Along the way I get a look at his hand of Goyf, stifle, daze, cantrips, I say something dumb like "what a strange grixis list..." to instantly realize he is on BUG, Duh. Pretty happy to see stifle as the Hymn version with more Liliana seems to be a more rough match up than the lower to the ground bug delver which cant go over the top of us as much.

SB on the draw: -2 cabal therapy, -1 Fow, -2 Daze, -2 probe, +2 painful truths, +2 strix, +1 lavamancer, +1 dismember

G2: He lands an early delver, and plays the disruption game well. Goyf is big. Wasteland is a thing.

G3: I have the on the play nut draw of turn 1 DRS, followed up by: bolt your DRS, play my delver, wasteland you. GG

Round 3: Vs miracles

I don’t think he had a ton of experience with the deck as the manabase was shocks instead of duals. Granted I actually think this doesn’t hurt the deck very much. My general plan vs miracles is for the most part only play one threat at a time, and usually just let their removal spells kill my creatures saving my counters for counterbalance, and anything that could be totally game winning from their side of the table (read: counterbalance)

G1: He keeps a slow hand that becomes even slower after I force a turn 1 top. I follow that up into an early pyromancer at some point finding a cabal therapy to shred his hand even further.

SB on the draw: -1 forked bolt, -2 lighting bolt, -3 daze, +2 pyroblast, +2 painful truths, +1 P-needle, +1 invasive surgery

G2: I can’t remember this game well except me trying to operate through a blind counterbalance for most of the game. I get him pretty low, landing on threat at a time. With him on the verge of stabilizing most of the game. I eventually land a drs while he is at 2 to seal the deal.

In retrospect (after the tournament) I’m on the fence with my SB plan vs miracles wondering if I should bring in the 3rd cabal therapy for the 4th daze (just b/c daze loses value so quickly in this match up) and also finding room to bring in the lavamancer just as another threat.


I've talked to a lot of people regarding this matchup and I get paired across the 'table' from it a lot on MTGO. Cabal is an all star and Daze quickly becomes a dead card, even on the play; I typically side out all 4. Lavamancer is a great threat to stick early or late as you can get value out of the things that get counter-spelled. I run a slightly different MB and SB than you (maindeck Decay), but board very similarly. I typically take out 4 Daze, Forked Bolt, 1-2 Lightning Bolt, and 1 Gitaxian Probe for: Needle, 1 or 2 Painful Truths (depending on my sb config), 3 Therapy, Pyroblast, and Flusterstorm.




Round 4: Miracles again, piloted by Jarvis Yu. DISCLAIMER: games 2 and 3 of this match totally blended together, so while I feel pretty accurate in the plays that happened, while typing it up I realized that I'm pretty confused if some of the plays weren't switched regarding what game they happened in. Long day going to FNM after work!

I think after introducing myself and seeing his turn one play I groan and laughingly say something along the lines of “a bad match up and a good player, perfect.” Plus his deck was sweet with lots of Japanese(?) Cards. Small win he wasn't on lands that night. phew!

G1: Typical miracles back and fourth. He pulls off a pretty good read of 2 terminus back to back clearly communicating to me he knows my game plan of moderating my threats (not that this delver plan is all that sophisticated). Although he didn’t have the counter top lock he lands a jace without me having any creatures in hand or a way to check the Jace. Scoop for time.

Sb same as above.

G2: I don’t remember exactly what my opener was, but I had two painful truths, and a DRS in it. Snap keep, truths is the nuts in this match up. Its pretty back and fourth with angler doing some work (as I remember it). He struggles to find a top making is draws pretty clunky (cant remember if this got forced or he just didn’t find one). I remember at some point him playing council’s judgment on one of my creatures. I think I knew at the time he had flusterstorm in hand, but I also had invasive surgery and spell pierce. I didn’t have delirium yet, so the line I took was spell pierce his judgment, letting him flusterstorm to get the spell pierce in my yard. This pays off (in a sense) as I un-tap play another threat and he reveals terminus. I get a bit hasty (was pretty excited about my line of play working out and feeling way ahead countering the terminus + Sugical) and show him the envelop just before he pay’s for it. He pauses and says something that he may not want to pay, but eventually just gives it to me given that its just an FNM (thanks Jarvis!) he says something about me being more careful with my triggers. You got that right I will! He eventually finds an answer to my threat and has double counterbalance in play. I play a ponder with bolt in hand, he reveals to counterbalance showing me a sudden shock he had put back on top several turns before, and goes to fetch in response of the second counterbalance trigger. I bolt him in response to the fetch for lethal.

Sb: I think I took out the 4th daze for the lavamancer here.

G3: I start off turn one volc into delver, probing him revealing a hand of terminus, counterspell, and some other stuff, with his only land being a volc. I have a wasteland in hand, but he peels a strand into island into cantrip for his first turn. The middle point of the game is fuzzy, I remember him being a bit land locked, forcing him to get some non-basics allowing me to keep wasteland live. He struggles to get past 3 mana, but we are still going back and fourth trading removal for creatures. A turning point of the game comes when I know he has 2 counterspell and a jace in hand with 3 lands in play. He finds a counterbalance, which I counter, untap play a needle naming Jace. I’m trying to play around his counterspells as much as possible, but eventually I just start slamming threats into them. I finally resolve a pyromancer but he has found a staticaster. I play an angler next turn, untap, and cabal therapy to check his hand to make sure my play of pyroblasting his staticaster to swing in for lethal doesn’t get blown out. GG. He tells me after the match that he had at one point 3 jace in hand, all turned off from needle.

I'm really starting to feel in a groove with this deck, but despite my success vs miracles that night I do need to seriously test the match up more, not in the sense of understanding my game plan vs them, but I felt really lost trying to read their play patterns along the way. I felt like I got lucky in key moments, one being a sportsmanlike opponent. Any tips for the match-up would be more than welcome.

Thanks!

Sounds like you have a pretty good idea about the miracles matchup. It's all about metering your threats since most of them will meet a Terminus or a Swords to Plowshares. Try to always keep one or two threats (ideally with different cmcs, if you can help it) in hand if you already have some amount of pressure on board. It can be tricky as overextending can be just as bad as under-extending (nothing feels worse than seeing the door close on you with them at like 5 life). Little things like using Clique defensively to save your board from a terminus/entreat by casting it in response to the miracle trigger can really set your opponent behind, rather than casting it as soon as you have 3 free mana and nothing better to do; only to watch it get terminus'd the next turn.

Overall I'd put the matchup at like 50/50 or 45/50 (depending on the Miracles build). Doable, but very swingy. I think my win:loss is right about 50% with it but has started to increase as I play more against it.

[Jaytron]

Jarvis Yu on Miracles? :O What is the world coming to?

[candellum]

Hi all, I'm very intrigued by the tournament report Sibelius posted. And was hoping to hear people's thoughts concerning the sideboard of the green splash version of the deck.

Top8 Tournament report and deck list from Peter White, undefeated in the Swiss of Bazaar of Moxen Annecy (300 + players) a week ago.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/2016/05/16/getting-greedy-in-annecy-bazaar-of-moxen-top-8-report/

Sib
I know that winter orb isn't a new card or tech but I'm curious to hear people's stance on it. From my understanding it is primarily used for the miracles match up, is there any other place you guys like to bring it in? Does it preform as expected, or is it just okay?

How many times do you find yourself flashing back ancient grudge? It has been in almost every sideboard for some time now and I'm wondering if it would be worth looking at a more versatile card like rakdos charm or a naturalize esk effect. They both get around the costing 1 mana problem grudge is looking to do, but they can shore up other matchups too which is something to consider. Especially in the versions already running abrupt decay.

Has anyone had a lot of success with life from the loam? It seems like it is a good idea on paper, but could be too slow for what this deck wants to do.

[Manipulato]

Hi all, I'm very intrigued by the tournament report Sibelius posted. And was hoping to hear people's thoughts concerning the sideboard of the green splash version of the deck.

I know that winter orb isn't a new card or tech but I'm curious to hear people's stance on it. From my understanding it is primarily used for the miracles match up, is there any other place you guys like to bring it in? Does it preform as expected, or is it just okay?

How many times do you find yourself flashing back ancient grudge? It has been in almost every sideboard for some time now and I'm wondering if it would be worth looking at a more versatile card like rakdos charm or a neutralize esk effect. They both get around the costing 1 mana problem grudge is looking to do, but they can shore up other matchups too which is something to consider. Especially in the versions already running abrupt decay.

Has anyone had a lot of success with life from the loam? It seems like it is a good idea on paper, but could be too slow for what this deck wants to do.

Winter Orb is good against Miracles, Lands, Shardless and all sorts of BGx decks...It just keeps your Dazes & Pierce´s more long alive. Even if the BGx dude kills it with AD your fine because then your YP, Delver or Shamans are safe and live longer...
I talked to a good Grixis pilot in Frankfurt and he was very happy with the card. The orb is especially great in the Stifle Version for obvious reasons...

[WashableWater1]

Hi all, I'm very intrigued by the tournament report Sibelius posted. And was hoping to hear people's thoughts concerning the sideboard of the green splash version of the deck.

I know that winter orb isn't a new card or tech but I'm curious to hear people's stance on it. From my understanding it is primarily used for the miracles match up, is there any other place you guys like to bring it in? Does it preform as expected, or is it just okay?

How many times do you find yourself flashing back ancient grudge? It has been in almost every sideboard for some time now and I'm wondering if it would be worth looking at a more versatile card like rakdos charm or a naturalize esk effect. They both get around the costing 1 mana problem grudge is looking to do, but they can shore up other matchups too which is something to consider. Especially in the versions already running abrupt decay.

Has anyone had a lot of success with life from the loam? It seems like it is a good idea on paper, but could be too slow for what this deck wants to do.

I prefer to have powerful cards in my sideboard to flexible cards. While I haven't used the flashback side of Grudge all too much, when I do it's huge. The upside of being able to smash 2 artifacts is worth the loss of flexibility that a Disenchant-effect would have. Rakdos Charm really doesn't seem like what this deck needs.

My understanding of that sideboard was that it was built to beat Lands, where Winter Orb can also be a powerhouse. If you expect a lot of Miracles and Lands, I think it's a good option to have.

Loam is a card that I've played with in Delver, but have never really been in love with. Firing off a wasteland every turn is powerful, but its never blown me out of the water. That said, its quite solid against midrange decks, and Lands to some degree.

[jattra]

Hello fellow mages,
I am new to the deck and just got 0:4 yesterday in my LGS. I run pretty standard list with therapies in main. I always felt my hand is powerful enough but never won a round. I often lost to removal, not able to keep my threat on the table.
Can you give me any hints how to play in the removal heavy meta? How you stand against Abrupt Decay or Sword Snap Sword? I haven't have enough counterspells (and Decay does not even care). My opponents were clever enough to play around Daze. Is Misdirection worth trying?
Thanks for any suggestions.

[Jaytron]

Hello fellow mages,
I am new to the deck and just got 0:4 yesterday in my LGS. I run pretty standard list with therapies in main. I always felt my hand is powerful enough but never won a round. I often lost to removal, not able to keep my threat on the table.
Can you give me any hints how to play in the removal heavy meta? How you stand against Abrupt Decay or Sword Snap Sword? I haven't have enough counterspells (and Decay does not even care). My opponents were clever enough to play around Daze. Is Misdirection worth trying?
Thanks for any suggestions.

It's really hard to say what to do, without actually seeing full gameplay.

Remember DRS can eat an StP in resp to a Snap targeting it with it's EtB trigger.

Decay is decay, it'll get you. If you are playing against decks with removal, try to slow roll Young Pyro, so you can at least chain off some spells for value and get tokens before it just dies.

Looking at how you board vs the MUs you're having trouble against would be helpful.

What decks did you play against when you went 0:4?

Being new to the deck doesn't help, the deck punishes small mistakes pretty severely. You also need to know your opponent's decks fairly well.

[jattra]

It's really hard to say what to do, without actually seeing full gameplay.

Remember DRS can eat an StP in resp to a Snap targeting it with it's EtB trigger.

Decay is decay, it'll get you. If you are playing against decks with removal, try to slow roll Young Pyro, so you can at least chain off some spells for value and get tokens before it just dies.

Looking at how you board vs the MUs you're having trouble against would be helpful.

What decks did you play against when you went 0:4?

Being new to the deck doesn't help, the deck punishes small mistakes pretty severely. You also need to know your opponent's decks fairly well.

Thanks for trying to help me. Yes, I am new to the deck and I make misplays. My list is here http://deckbox.org/sets/1386524

Round 1: Esper control (StP, Snapcaster, Mentor, TNN).
I am trying to advance my board, he kills everything and plays Mentor. I am able to kill Mentor but he finishes me with Nemesis.
I sided in Edict, Pyroblasts, Strix, Thruths. Out FoW and a few ponders.
Similar second game but he cannot clear the board completely, so we are racing. He StP his own Tasigur so that he survives lethal Delver and finishes me with Nemesis.

Round 2: RUG Delver.
He casts a decay and another. Uses Sylvan lib to find more threats. Finishes me with Goyf.
I added some more removal and pull Fow out.
I think I won the second game.
Third game I got wasted and stifled completely. Not played magic at all.

Round 3: UBWG Control (StP, Snapcaster, TNN, Decay, SFMystic and his tools)
He wins 2:1. I brought in Decay, Edict, Pyroblasts, Truths, Needles.

Round 4: UR Delver.
He wins 2:1. We both trying to race while removing opponent's threats. He gets me with PoP first game and with Blood Moon the third game.

Cheers.

[noobslayer]

This is what I've been testing and will likely run at an upcoming event.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Islands
8 Blue Fetches

SB:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Winter Orb

Thoughts? In the main I've opted for the Stifle package, grabbed a spell pierece because it's just a great singleton, and I've gone with dismember in the 5th slot for an added removal that can clear a large array of threats. I feel like my sideboard is mostly standard, the only two slots I'm unsure of are Invasive Surgery and Fire Covenant.

[Ltj999]

This is what I've been testing and will likely run at an upcoming event.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Islands
8 Blue Fetches

SB:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Winter Orb

Thoughts? In the main I've opted for the Stifle package, grabbed a spell pierece because it's just a great singleton, and I've gone with dismember in the 5th slot for an added removal that can clear a large array of threats. I feel like my sideboard is mostly standard, the only two slots I'm unsure of are Invasive Surgery and Fire Covenant.

I love having the extra threat, but honestly haven't ever tested without it honestly. The only part that I do have some insights in is the 2 decay in the SB. It felt really go to have in against miracles and shardless bug, but not much else. I ended up cutting it as I felt like it always put me in tension wanting to bring it in vs other delver decks, yet realizing that with only one trop it is very greedy. It also can lead to some difficult opening hands, where you have lots of red spells, maybe one black spell, and then a decay. After having lost with it in hand and not having access to green I ended up letting it go and haven't looked back. Lavamancer and grudge have felt really solid in their place.

[Draggo]

Hello fellow mages,
I am new to the deck and just got 0:4 yesterday in my LGS. I run pretty standard list with therapies in main. I always felt my hand is powerful enough but never won a round. I often lost to removal, not able to keep my threat on the table.
Can you give me any hints how to play in the removal heavy meta? How you stand against Abrupt Decay or Sword Snap Sword? I haven't have enough counterspells (and Decay does not even care). My opponents were clever enough to play around Daze. Is Misdirection worth trying?
Thanks for any suggestions.

I've played alot of Grixis, with different listst and basicly almost always good results.
I'm not a fan of the main deck Therapy, although it works, I prefer to have a reactive playstyle. Countering and using Stifle rather then discard. I had better results with 3 in the side then any amound main deck. To be fair, this was a while ago, meta could have shifted in favor of the therapy since everyone is playing it now.
If you have a ton of removal in the meta, squeeze one TNN main deck. Try to chain some spells after dropping Pyromancer to not let it go to waste when it get's removed on the spot. Use counters even if it means you only get one or a few tokens (depending on the board state ofcourse).
You can also swap to other creatures that are better top-decks so you don't have to chain spells (this is what I did). Play more Anglers or even Sultai Scavenger (you can laugh at this, but I topped a couple of locals with 4 of these in the main deck, and there aren't kitchen table decks or players over there).

In the end, you can always have a bad day and draw terrible. A single high or low score doesn't mean a whole lot.
Try to take notes and check if you made play errors or should have taken different play routes if you want to improve playing the deck.

[jattra]

Thanks Draggo,
I will try again this week :)

[Darkness]

Was out playing legacy for the last few months due to work/life. Coming back and thinking about playing the deck, last time I played was right before the banning of Dig Through Time. Deck was great then and not surprised it's still producing good numbers. I was pricing out new legacy decks I was interested in, my whole collection was sold, 4c Loam, Jund, and ANT were contenders. I then realize I still haven't sold my 4 Wastelands, 1 U. Sea, 2 Volcs, and 1 Trop. Which means Grixis Delver is still the cheapest legacy deck for me to build from scratch LMAO:tongue:. My question is how good is it versus Eldrazi? I am familiar with it's strengths/weaknesses aside from that MU as I've been playing legacy for a very long time. I just wanted input from players who have live experience with the deck.

[Luca Grease]

My question is how good is it versus Eldrazi? I am familiar with it's strengths/weaknesses aside from that MU as I've been playing legacy for a very long time. I just wanted input from players who have live experience with the deck.

I'd say it's pretty even against the colorless version, provided you have a strong sideboard for it, with multiple answers to chalice (ancient grudge, explosives, kolaghan's, decays) and a couple of Baleful Strixes. It still isn't a deck you're happy to face in the dark cause you'll often just lose g1 to chalice, or being unable to deal with uncounterable 4/4s and 5/5s. Even though they run 4 cavern of souls, I think that dazes and fows should absolutely stay in, since countering their lock pieces is key, and they'll often play their haymakers on curve off of sol lands. I usually take out the cabal therapy + probe package and the singleton spell pierce, as I found this to be more of a board oriented MU.
All of your creatures and very good in this MU except for maybe DRS, which doesn't really shine (but is still a perfectly good card). Your best bet, especially in g1, is to lead with an early delver and keep them off balance with wastelands and soft counters long enough to get the job done. Also, this MU is the reason why I like to play a singleton maindeck Murderous Cut instead of the standard forked bolt.

As an aside, I think the U/W version of Eldrazi (featuring some colored mana, Displacer, the 2/1 flier, and drowner of sorrow instead of wastelands, matter reshapers, and endbringers) is just a nightmare MU for delver of all kinds. It plays more lands so it is less susceptible to wasteland, has a blocker for delver, a creature that must be dispatched on sight (displacer), and a fatty that doesn't have to wait for a turn to fully impact the board. And that's without considering potential RIPs out of the sideboard. Thankfully, the colorless version still seems to be the most prevalent one atm...

[Agrippa91]

@Luca Grease: Very good answer, I can second this from my experiences though I haven't played against the colored version yet. Tbh I thought that being able to bolt their 3-drop might give us a big tempo advantage.
Depending on wether you're playing the Stifle or the Therapy version you take out those plus as many gitaxian probes as you can (personally I leave in spell pierce and cut another probe). Dismember or murderous cut are other sideboard card that are really good to bring in though I'm always feeling awkward bringing in the 3rd delve spell that can't be pitched to FoW like DTT.

[Darkness]

I saw a Grixis List that played an Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, in the SB. I assume it's for the Miracles match up. What do you all think of this? I like that it presents an alt wincon as mill and can nab SCM or Monastery Mentors from his -X ability. I do not like that he seems like a low variety usage Sideboard card. When I played Grixis Tempo when Dig was legal still, I used sulfuric vortex for the control matches. Lands, Miracles, and Deathblade decks didn't really have a great way to stop the card as they didn't really see it coming.

[jattra]

I got 1:3 yesterday on the local event. I won against UR Delver. I lost to BUG, Burn, Elves and most of all I lost to my misplays :) Still learning.

Any hints against Burn? I felt like I cannot win that matchup. Even though I bolted their Eidolon, extracted their PoPs, countered their Fireblast, it still was not enough.
What is the best strategy against Burn?

[Agrippa91]

Most importantly: Don't sideboard Surgical Extraction.
New players make the mistake of boarding it in 70% of the matches because they have the dream scenario in mind. In practice it's a card with low floor and high cealing, meaning the results you get vary vastly:
At worst it's just a dead card in your hand, mostly because it's card disadvantage, this can hurt you in decks where you want to trade 1-for-1 (like Burn who need ~6 spells to resolve).
You really only want it against decks where you can get value by extracting a powerful card that synergises with the graveyard.
Examples are Bridge from Below, Reaimation-targets, Life from the Loam and certain cards to screw up their combo in ANT (Storm) and because you see their hand a lot (and their hand is what it's all about in this matchup). I don't like it in miracles but it's ok there because it's (only) good if your oppoent has a terminus in the gy and draws another one (you can surgical it in response to the miracles trigger).
People will bring it in against Delver more than you expect and I rejoice every time because they'll do something like surgical away a card without really ever getting anything out of my hand (our most powerful cards are instants we can play in response or creatures we should play as soon as we draw them). They just spent mana (or life which is also fine in this matchup) and a card on doing nothing that's important in this matchup (killing something, drawing additional cards, advancing the board).

Now to the burn-matchup:
You have several bad cards in this matchup:
- Wasteland
- Gitaxian Probe
- Daze

Wasteland:
Many people think "hey, wasteland prevents 4 damage by destroying one of my lands in response to PoP!" but when you look at it that's actually not true: If you didn't have Wasteland all you would take is 2 damage. Now having a specific card JUST to prevent 2 damage from ONE spell is just really bad. Daze does the same job by returning a dual-land to your hand and it has other implications, too without being really a good card in this matchup. SIDE OUT

Gitaxian Probe:
Here's the problem: You don't want to play life to play this card 90% of the time in this MU because that way you'd just almost bolt yourself!
Now Burn is so quick that you don't really want to play mana either just because the effect is really minimal (and you don't necessarily know which land to tap because you don't know what you'll draw).
Surprisingly Cabal Therapy is still a decent card in this matchup! Just name PoP blind at a point where it doesn't hurt you badly, otherwise you can always name Fireblast. Those are both rather situational cards the opponent won't play and hold as long as possible. SIDE OUT

Daze: It's not a great card, especially otd since they can play around it (e.g. with suspending rift bolt or just by not spending 1 mana per turn) because our wastelands aren't life. It's still a decent card since it slows opponents down and it does an ok job pitching to FoW and preventing 2 damage from PoP. It's also a nice "combo" with cabal therapy because often times opponents will be forced to play out stuff quicker which plays into daze. KEEP IN

Now let's have a look at your sideboard:
Unfortunately I can't access your deck list because it says I don't have authority, can you perhaps upload it to something like tappedout-net or just post your list here?

Overall it should be said that this is considered by many a bad matchup for us and it's one of the reasons why I have a Hydroblast in my sideboard.

[jattra]

Most importantly: Don't sideboard Surgical Extraction.


Ok, but since I want 8 cards out, there i not much else to put in.
I fixed the permission problem. You can check my deck here http://deckbox.org/sets/1386524

Thanks a lot for hints.

[Draggo]

Against burm, like Agrippa said, Wasteland and Probe are proberly your worst cards. I feel like Daze still has good value since you want to slow them down, forcing them to play Eidelon later or counter greedy plays. Also you can grab back a land against PoP, witch is your worst nightmare.
Never play more then 2 or 3 lands unless you have a shaman and want to ramp up to hardcast FoW (with Shaman or a few Wastelands in play). Don't forget, you can target Wasteland with his own ability to destroy it. you don't have to kill other lands with it if you don't want to.
Find the Tropical fast, so you can gian life with Shaman.
Take out probes/(2 wasteland, not all 4)/stifle/therapy, depending on what you run main deck.
Grab any sort of creature removal you have from the sideboard. You need to take out Eidelon and Lavamancer.
Also get TNN out of the board if you have it in there. Even Strix should work since it catches a bolt after cantripping or stops their Swiftspears/Guides from attacking.
I'm a fan of heavy counterplay on their creatures, since you can't affort to take too many hits from something like a Goblin Guide or Swiftspear. Either counter or remove them if possible.

Burn can be a tough match-up, but I think you should be in favor.

Against Elves, watch closely what they try to set up. Kill the Symbiote, Ranger and Heritage Druid. In that order.
BUG is a tough match up since they have strong sideboard options against Pyromancer. Try to hit the manabase if you run Stifle, otherwise, good luck winning this match :P. I used to have one or two Mizzium Skin in the board for this match-up. It helps Pyromancer and tokens survive the Golgari Charm and it counters the Decay.

[Agrippa91]

I actually leave in 3 stifles against Burn. Stifling their fetches makes Daze way better, also countering Riftbolt and trading 1-for-1 is huge. At worst it pitches to FoW...

[Darkness]

The best way to beat Burn as Delver is to creature a bigger board presence than they have. Having them use their burn on your creatures allows you to have counter magic for their bigger spells, Price of Progress and Fireblast. Between cards like Bolt, F. Bolt, disfigure, Lavamancer, and murderous cut you should be able to clear the board pretty well. I have found if you pressure them to play on the defense they usually don't have enough burn to hit you back on the offense.

[jattra]

Thanks for hints. Maybe, I will try the stifle build next time.


I have found if you pressure them to play on the defense they usually don't have enough burn to hit you back on the offense.
Should I try to protect my shaman/delver or should I let them burn them and keep counterspells for PoP?


Against Elves, watch closely what they try to set up. Kill the Symbiote, Ranger and Heritage Druid. In that order.
Yeah, that is what I did. He was left with just four random dudes but he also had two Cradles and a Behemoth. Bad luck :(

Not giving up here yet :)

[Darkness]

Should I try to protect my shaman/delver or should I let them burn them and keep counterspells for PoP?

I think that it depends on the hand that you have. If you have a creature heavy hand then it doesn't matter if your one creature dies when you can replace it. If you have just a delver and many ways to protect it and or to find more gas via can trips then you should counter it.

Remember burn is trying to attack you with a linear strategy. Send spells to the face or play creatures to attack your face. When they can combined both of these strategies together the deck becomes extra potent. The best way to assess how you should be attacking them, or protecting your creatures, is to figure out how to maximize disruption to whichever strategy they are attempting to use on you. This will vary depending on your draws each game. My suggestion keep this in mind and play test with a friend.

Personally, PoP doesn't really scare me, maybe it should, but I'm personally terrified of Eidelon. Eidelon is scary because it's the only card they have that both, hits you in the face and attacks to the face. Eidelon is surely a must kill asap target.

Hope this has been helpful.

P.S. If you want help I can play with you on cockatrice as the burn player. Private message me if interested.

[Sigi85]

In my current meta i'm not worried about burn, but i'm worried on miracle, eldrazi and bug control. i think that with Noah's Walker list is very difficoult to win game 1, against a resolved balance and a chalice of the void (is pratically GG), and as for the major part of BG match up, the discard plan is really weak, especially with a suspended vision (many list now are running 2 Toxic deluge, so you have to choose what is better to force).
For this reason i'm testing the Bom list and i have to say that is really performing, you can concede something to the combo Mu on g1, but with 2 decay main deck, you can take care about balance, chalice and BG's beast(strix and tarmo).
Has anyone test the list? and what do you thinking about?

[Hank Zhong]

In my current meta i'm not worried about burn, but i'm worried on miracle, eldrazi and bug control. i think that with Noah's Walker list is very difficoult to win game 1, against a resolved balance and a chalice of the void (is pratically GG), and as for the major part of BG match up, the discard plan is really weak, especially with a suspended vision (many list now are running 2 Toxic deluge, so you have to choose what is better to force).
For this reason i'm testing the Bom list and i have to say that is really performing, you can concede something to the combo Mu on g1, but with 2 decay main deck, you can take care about balance, chalice and BG's beast(strix and tarmo).
Has anyone test the list? and what do you thinking about?

I tried the 2 Abrupt Decay MD build yesterday for 4 rounds, going 3-1.

Mana was never a huge issue, though I only got wastelanded once in 4 rounds, so hard to say.

Abrupt Decay definitely saved my ass vs. Miracles round 2 game 1. I would've been CB locked and likely lost the game if the decay were a therapy or forked bolt.

Moving forward I would definitely play this build.

I also chose to not play the 19th land, which was the 3rd volc. One question I have for everyone is why 3 volcanic islands? I've gotten so many draws where I can't cast a deathrite off it. Now that you have decay, volc is even worse. Before AD, I was playing 3 seas and 2 volc and it felt much better. With Decay I'm on 2 sea, 2 volc, 2 trop and it's been fine.

[Manipulato]

For the People who try out AD in they´re MD I just can recommend you these 2 lists which I play and really like.

Version 1: A normal Grixis Delver list with 2 AD MD and a slightly changed manabase
You can just cut the 2 Spell Pierces and add a 19th land (dependent on your meta) and a 3rd AD if you want.

14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

28 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

18 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Painful Truths
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Version 2: A really 4c Delver list with Tarmogoyf instead of YP which is more a bUrg list. (This is the one I piloted to a 6:0:1 in Frankfurt).

15 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis

26 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

19 Lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Painful Truths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle

This list is more grindy and a bit more clunky than the normal Grixis Delver lists for example but a blast to Play! I can really recommend this list. It´s also heavily played by the czech legacy masters.
In my opinion it´s currently all about getting rid of Counterbalance & Chalice of the Void, and without AD in the MD these cards can be really problematic.
If you fetch wisely & play your lands correct the manabase doenst wreck you. It´s a bit more difficult but if you can handle it it´s straight up better.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lormador]

Thanks for posting those lists!

I had been looking for a way to get a little more of the flavor of those 4-color Delver lists from just before DTT got banned.

[Darkness]

Does anyone have any experience with Grim Lavamancer? I have seen him come up in a few lists and he does look good for the mirror, Elves, DnT, Merfolk, and Goblins MU, but I don't have any actual experience with the card. I'm planning on testing him in my SB instead of a mini sweeper like Electrickery or Marsh Casualties.

[Draggo]

I think Grim is pritty terrible for Grixis. It's counter productive on both the Anglers and the Shamans. I feel like you're better off adding some sweepers if you have a hard match up against decks that swarm you. Sweep with Delver and/or Angler in play and you pritty much win on the spot.

[Agrippa91]

Personally I dislike Lavamancer for the same reasons I dislike TNN, Clique and Strix:
Because it has 1 toughness. I just always have the feeling I've lost once I got 2-for-1ed with Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Forked Bolt etc. and I really don't like keeping in FoW in most fair matchups either (like only against Nic-Fit and Eldrazi).

[Ltj999]

any thoughts on the DnT Match-up. Feels pretty rough, but winnable at times. The combo of RIP + a stream of disrupting creatures is pretty gnarly to beat. Have had the best bet getting online the cabal therapy + pyromancer engine as it lets me pull way ahead on cards so my removal can keep up, but any other suggestions on how to attack the matchup would be great.

[Jandrosaurus]

In my current meta i'm not worried about burn, but i'm worried on miracle, eldrazi and bug control. i think that with Noah's Walker list is very difficoult to win game 1, against a resolved balance and a chalice of the void (is pratically GG), and as for the major part of BG match up, the discard plan is really weak, especially with a suspended vision (many list now are running 2 Toxic deluge, so you have to choose what is better to force).
For this reason i'm testing the Bom list and i have to say that is really performing, you can concede something to the combo Mu on g1, but with 2 decay main deck, you can take care about balance, chalice and BG's beast(strix and tarmo).
Has anyone test the list? and what do you thinking about?

Hey there -- I play a Grixis list with 2x AD main for the same reasons you're thinking of doing so: Chalice, Miracles, and Shardless decks run rampant in my meta.

Here's my current list. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/17-03-16-grixis-delver/)

note: I'm trying to find room to try out Invasive Surgery in the SB. Not sure what to cut for it, though, tbh.

Anyway, I really like my list. There isn't much combo in my meta, and when I do face it, I feel like we have pretty good game vs it, even G1. Siding into Therapy, Fluster, and eventually Invasive Surgery, make it even better. EE helps a lot when they go for the Empty plan vs the ol' 10-drils. Miracles is pretty 50/50, at least that's my experience, but can be made way better if you draw your Decays in G1. Also, not just auto-losing to Chalice-on-1 G1 vs Eldrazi is sweet. I haven't really found mana to be that much of a problem. DRS is built-in fixing and I don't miss the extra fetch I took out for the second Tropical Island. I very very rarely ever draw 2 Trops in a game, and I can usually get around it with DRS.

If you have more specific questions, I'd be happy to help, given my experience with the deck.

[Jandrosaurus]

any thoughts on the DnT Match-up. Feels pretty rough, but winnable at times. The combo of RIP + a stream of disrupting creatures is pretty gnarly to beat. Have had the best bet getting online the cabal therapy + pyromancer engine as it lets me pull way ahead on cards so my removal can keep up, but any other suggestions on how to attack the matchup would be great.

DnT is rough. I'd say we aren't favored. Try to save your Cabal Therapys for after they resolve a SFM, then just take whatever they fetch up. Prioritize killing their Jitte (either with Abrupt Decay if you run it, or Ancient Grudge out of the board if you don't) since just one hit with it can be devastating and really hard to come back from.

Be really mindful of their Vial counters. Assume they always have the Flickerwisp if it's on 3.

Always always 'bolt the bird', the bird, in this case, being Mom.

Null Rod is a house, if you can find room for it in the SB and you have a lot of other decks that get rekt by it in your meta (think: Painter).

That's all I can think of off the top of my head without getting into very specific, but obvious scenarios with SB cards.

[Agrippa91]

I actually think that Pithing Needle is at least as good as Null Rod in the D&T-matchup: Most importantly it can shut off port and mom which rod can't. They're both really strong though, the only reason I keep in Needle instead is because of lands (which I find rather winnable with my sb).
D&T is generally unfavored preboard, but favorable postboard in my experience. All these cantrips just make it so that our trump cards (be it Grudge, Lavamancer, Dread or Covenant) are easy to find, also Cabal Therapy does a lot (though I'd generally wait until the opponent lands a stoneforge or obviously doesn't have it if I also can do other stuff with my mana in the meanwhile).

As I said though, the fact that I (among many other players) feel that we have a really strong sideboard shifts the matchup in our favor overall.

[MinosSnt]

I actually think that Pithing Needle is at least as good as Null Rod in the D&T-matchup: Most importantly it can shut off port and mom which rod can't. They're both really strong though, the only reason I keep in Needle instead is because of lands (which I find rather winnable with my sb).
D&T is generally unfavored preboard, but favorable postboard in my experience. All these cantrips just make it so that our trump cards (be it Grudge, Lavamancer, Dread or Covenant) are easy to find, also Cabal Therapy does a lot (though I'd generally wait until the opponent lands a stoneforge or obviously doesn't have it if I also can do other stuff with my mana in the meanwhile).

As I said though, the fact that I (among many other players) feel that we have a really strong sideboard shifts the matchup in our favor overall.

Hi Agrippa, can you post your SB with your MD please. I'm looking for a strong SB against Lands ;)

[Agrippa91]

A link to my deck is in my signature, just click on it :wink:
Against lands I sideboard:

-5 Bolts
-4 Daze

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Hydroblast
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Tropical Island

As you see it's not only the sb that matches up against lands very well but also the maindeck stifles. Without those I'd honestly be afraid to play decays in the sb against wasteland decks (mostly delver, eldrazi and lands) which would leave the decays only against miracles (which would be quite narrow).

Similar to D&T and a lot of other nonblue decks that are hard matchups (Eldrazi, 4cLoam) the strength imo lies in having a better post-sb matchup against them thanks to awesome sideboard cards and cantrips to find them.

[dedicateddan]

Hi all!

After a short hiatus from legacy, I came across grixis delver and the deck looked too good not to play. In addition to the typical delver shell, deathrite shaman leads to some pretty explosive starts and provides a free source of graveyard interaction, gitaxian probe provides perfect information and the removal options in the sideboard are quite strong with access to four colors.

After getting the deck together, I decided to play in one of the weekly legacy tournaments at Knight Ware. To prepare, I watched a bunch of Noah Walker coverage.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=noah+walker+grixis+delver+legacy

It immediately became clear that Noah was taking very aggressive lines. Jamming threats on turn 1, pyromancers on 2, countering removal spells, and generally getting them dead. Probe helped direct wastelands and removal spells. In the sideboard, baleful strix and painful truths provide card advantage, which shines in the grindy, removal heavy matchups

I ended up sleeving up the following 75:

Lands (18):
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures (14):
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Young Pyromancer
1x True-Name Nemesis
2x Gurmag Angler

Spells (28):
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Spell Pierce
1x Forked Bolt

Sideboard (15):
2x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extractionvoi
1x Rough//Tumble
1x Dismember
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Darkblast
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Pyroblast
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay

The mainboard is pretty stock for a stifleless list. The true-name nemesis was fine, but a fourth pyromancer is probably better with maindeck cabal therapy. Out of the sideboard, abrupt decay and ancient grudge lined up well with challice of the voids that were seemingly everywhere. Card availability meant that baleful strix will have to wait until the next tournament to shine

Onto the games!

Round 1: David (Imperial Painter)
David and I drove up together and decide to audible into playing an imperial painter deck that the storeowner, Lori, leant to him (have I mentioned that this store is great?). Before the round starts, we play a couple of practice games. In the first, he plays a turn 1 blood moon and I lose. In the second, I waste him off his only red source and bolt his painter's servant. The painter deck can get some free wins off of blood moon, but we have so much removal for the painter's servant/grindstone combo that they have to try and play a grindy game with goblin welder and sensei's divining top. In the actual matches, multiple wastelands + pressure took down both games:

Sideboarding (on the draw):
+2 Painful Truths
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Abrupt Decay

-4 Daze
-2 Gurmag Angler
-1 TNN
-1 Forked Bolt

Daze is quite bad on the draw without stifle support. Gurmag are vulnerable to a potential rest in peace

Matches: 1-0
Games: 2-0

Round 2: Eldrazi
My opponent is playing an eldrazi deck with eldrazi displacer and cavern of souls, but no wastelands and no removal that I saw. In game 1, I stick a delver on turn 1 and manage to strand his Jitte with wastelands + burn. In game 2, I rip a crucial force to counter a challice for 1, and win the delver versus thought-knot seer + reality smasher race by a single turn.

Sideboarding (on the draw):
-4 Daze
-1 Forked Bolt
-1 Spell Pierce

+1 Dismember
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Abrupt Decay

Daze is horrendous on the draw, and we need some answers to a challice for 1. My opponent elected to play an almost entirely proactive eldrazi plan, which lead to most games being races. We managed to fit another 6-7 games in before time was called. Delver is favored against a proactive eldrazi goldfish. The matchup gets trickier if they have pressure backed up by colorless removal

Matches 2-0
Games 4-0

Round 3 Dredge (Kai?):
Game 1, I win the die roll and probe to see a hand with no lands, LED, faithless looting, and a single dredger. I play a deathrite shaman on turn 1, force the faithless looting, and exile the dredger. I draw a bunch of lands, but deathrite has the game locked up.

Game 2, I keep a nice looking hand without 0 mana interaction on the draw, bad call! I resolve surgical and take a look at his deck before conceding. Notably, there are no street wraiths, so future surgicals can safely target dredgers.

Game 3, We both mulligan, and I keep DRS, bolt, brainstorm, 3 lands. I play the shaman, my opponent firestorms it and discards two blanks. I ponder, draw force, leave a ponder on top, and my opponent plays careful study, to dig for a dredger. Forcing has the potential to lock my opponent out, but allowing careful study lets me cast brainstorm + ponder next turn and hitting surgical extraction on a dredger at any point is likely game. I find a deathrite shaman instead and lock up the game a couple of turns later.

+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Rough//Tumble
+1 Darkblast

-3 Wasteland
-1 Forked Bolt
-1 Daze
-2 Cabal Therapy

Surgical is a big upgrade, as is the instant speed removal. You can kill your own creatures in response to bridge from below triggers to stem the tide of zombies

Matches 3-0
Games 6-1

Round 4 Cody (Goblin Stompy)
Game 1: Cody leads with city of traitors into challice for 1, which I force. He follows up with mountain, cavern of souls on human. A gitaxian probe reveals a hand of 2 moggcatchers and a goblin settlers. I find a delver and a young pyromancer, but his second moggcatcher finds a kiki jiki and a siege gang. A true name nemesis gets him into bolt range, but he cracks back for lethal.

Game 2: An early delver gets in for 10, but it stingscourger takes care of it after a challice for 1, followed by a trinisphere. Painful truths into ancient grudge takes care of the artifacts, but a siege gang commander and ancient tomb leave both life totals perilously low. Resources trade off for a few more turns, and we end up a card or two ahead

Game 3: Cody resolves two challices on 1 to our painful truths, but doesn't find a third land for several turns. Time is called, and we elect to scoop Cody up into a tie for first

Sideboarding (on the draw):
-4 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Ponder

+1 Painful Truths
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Abrupt Decay

Matches 3-1
Games 7-2-1

Overall, met a bunch of very nice people and had a better than expected first tournament. The deck played out great with a proactive game plan and a flexible removal suite. Knight Ware continues to be a great store with 17! legacy decks available to borrow. I think I'll head back for the legacy staples tournament on June 12th.

[Agrippa91]

Thanks for the report!
The only thing I disagree with is the Therapies over the Dazes in Eldrazi. These guys just have a too perfect curve for their own good. Most of the times they have to play their reality smashers and thought-knot-seers into daze, even more so with your wastelands!
Probe on the other hand drains your life (which is relevant in such a swingy matchup) and Cabal Therapy is not ideal against a deck where they vomit out cards and go into topdeck mode relatively quickly if you don't stop them. Nor Probe nor therapy advance the board and they're only actually decent when you have both of them together (most of the time you don't have time for YP, especially if you don't play Dazes).
I would actually just cut all the Therapies and all the Probes and also keep in Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce, I think they're decent enough in that matchup (though people will disagree).

[VERTUK]

A link to my deck is in my signature, just click on it :wink:
Against lands I sideboard:

-5 Bolts
-4 Daze

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Hydroblast
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Tropical Island

As you see it's not only the sb that matches up against lands very well but also the maindeck stifles. Without those I'd honestly be afraid to play decays in the sb against wasteland decks (mostly delver, eldrazi and lands) which would leave the decays only against miracles (which would be quite narrow).

Similar to D&T and a lot of other nonblue decks that are hard matchups (Eldrazi, 4cLoam) the strength imo lies in having a better post-sb matchup against them thanks to awesome sideboard cards and cantrips to find them.

And what about D&T. The cards coming in are obvious, but what cards u get out?

[Agrippa91]

And what about D&T. The cards coming in are obvious, but what cards u get out?

D&T is a tricky one. There's a streamer on twitch that also streams Grixis with stifle and he leaves in all 4 stifles but takes out all FoWs.
Personally I'm not a big fan, though it's an ok card in the first game imo (jackpots being stifling wastelands, stoneforge, batterskull and flickerwisp-eot-trigger).
This guy also leaves in Dazes, even otd with the reasoning that D&T has a lot of 2 and 3 drops worth dazing. I only like this plan though against decks where stifle and wastelands are also good.
I slightly disagree with him because imo Dazes are too dependent on wether we have wastelands (and he has nonbasics). Also dazing with a Thalia out is nigh impossible (and I let Thalia live a lot of the times when I don't have a cantrip-heavy hand and enough lands)

I board a LOT in this matchup, cutting
-4 Dazes
-3 Stifle
-2 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce

and bring in basically removals only:
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Cabal Therapy
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Fire Covenant
+1 Tropical Island

The numbers of Spell Pierce and FoW do seem random, but have a reason: With only 18 blue sources remaining I leave in only 2 Fow, otherwise the third stifle propably would be another FoW. Stifle can still be worth a full card sometimes though. I like that I can pitch useless cards later on to the 2 FoWs i left in, e.g. when my cantrips are useless or cost too much.

Generally my gameplan is to go for a really long, grindy game. In this game they'll draw all their lands and stuff while we get to shuffle them away.
I also have some sort of card-advantage (Cabal Therapy, Fire Covenant, YP, Pithing Needle if e.g. 2 moms are out) while we get to negate much of the card-advantages he is getting by Cabal Therapy and Decay, leaving him with a bunch of bodies he can't attack with because of Angler and YP.

[Darkness]

Went in to a small tournament went 4-0 borrowing the deck till my cards come in from eternal masters order.

Beat

Eldrazi - 2-1
Reanimator - 2-0
MUD - 2-0
Jund - 2-1

List

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread of Night - ( wanted a Grim Lavamancer )
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Submerge - ( wanted a baleful strix )
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

Delver/DRS/Angler all shined as a creature.
Needle was great
Wasteland was badass
Pyromancer is good but mana intense.

I'm proud I 4-0 after not playing tournament magic in 6 months.

Will be playing next week same list, till my eternal master cards come in. Post a more in-depth report

[dedicateddan]

Thanks for the report!
The only thing I disagree with is the Therapies over the Dazes in Eldrazi. These guys just have a too perfect curve for their own good. Most of the times they have to play their reality smashers and thought-knot-seers into daze, even more so with your wastelands!
Probe on the other hand drains your life (which is relevant in such a swingy matchup) and Cabal Therapy is not ideal against a deck where they vomit out cards and go into topdeck mode relatively quickly if you don't stop them. Nor Probe nor therapy advance the board and they're only actually decent when you have both of them together (most of the time you don't have time for YP, especially if you don't play Dazes).1
I would actually just cut all the Therapies and all the Probes and also keep in Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce, I think they're decent enough in that matchup (though people will disagree).

Thanks for the comment. On the play, daze is excellent and four copies is great. I'll test some games on the draw to see what configuration I like. Some number of dazes could be good. The Probe/Therapy package was OK against the slower GW eldrazi deck I faced, as it provides an answer to larger creatures and all is dust.

[Agrippa91]

Thanks for the comment. On the play, daze is excellent and four copies is great. I'll test some games on the draw to see what configuration I like. Some number of dazes could be good. The Probe/Therapy package was OK against the slower GW eldrazi deck I faced, as it provides an answer to larger creatures and all is dust.

Yet here I think that Daze really shines: Against stuff that cost a lot of mana. It also has the added benefit of a getting their early threats.

[VERTUK]

Yet here I think that Daze really shines: Against stuff that cost a lot of mana. It also has the added benefit of a getting their early threats.

Yup but cavern of souls is a thing too... I personally prefer cabals

[Agrippa91]

It's similar against Merfolk imo:
Do you leave in all the counters for maximum tempo or do you play cabal + Gitaxian Probe and give up on tempo, but you get stuff around cavern of souls (but are more vulnerable to topdecks)?
I'm thinking about trying out leaving in all my dazes and forces and just go for maximum tempo in this matchup.
Otherwise TNN or a timely Harbinger can just screw us up so hard that there's really nothing we can do imo.

[VERTUK]

It depends on your deck configuration. As u play 4x stifles, you maybe are more commited to play tempo. Lists than dont play stifle can switch to grind plan better.

[Agrippa91]

I'm 100% sure I don't want stifle against Merfolk. It just does nothing besides forcing my opponent to spend 1-2 more mana or not drawing a card with Silvergill Adept, so I definitely board them out. It's like the best deck against the card stifle together with Eldrazi.

[VERTUK]

Well, it has sense. Im currently playing the 2 decay 0 stifle version and im loving it. The list just lose some punch vs storm and maybe delver decks. Grindier matchups get a lot better, and there are no decks u cant beat.

[MadRhetoric]

In the Eldrazi matchup, I've been keeping in my dazes. As others have said, they play on curve and have no way to actively find cavern. I also want as many answers to an early chalice or dismember on a delver as possible. I'm taking this deck to Columbus this weekend and have two questions from my testing the other day. Any input is greatly appreciated.

1. Who has tried Kolaghan's Command and what has your experience been? I was playing Engineered Explosives until recently but was never that happy with the card. I want a card that can deal with chalice and also be good in other matchups and Command seems to fit the bill, but don't have time to fully test.

2. How are people sideboarding against infect? I played the matchup last night and I ended up boarding as outlined below. Taking out a Ponder seemed weird but everything else seemed better and I can't afford to durdle in that matchup.

-2 Gurmag Angler
-1 Young Pyromancer
-1 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Ponder

+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Dismember

Full list:
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Vendilion Clique

[Agrippa91]

I agree on the "cannot afford to durdle around" part when playing against Infect. My natural conclusion would be to side out Cabal Therapy then though.
1 Pithing Needle against Inkmoth Nexus as well as the 2 Baleful Strixes seem good, too. Personally I would just shave the whole Cabal Therapy + Probe package and put in more of these.

Now the reason why I don't like Kolaghan's Command is that it doesn't really everything I want. Most importantly: It doesn't destroy enchantments, especially counterbalance. Also it doesn't kill Tarmogoyf or Mother of Runes if I need it. I know EE is a very important card if you don't play green from my days of playing Grixis Pyromancer with DTT.
Also KC doesn't do very well against Miracles (discard and 2 damage are hardly relevant, so is destroying an artifact) or other grindy decks like Jund or Nic-Fit. Only against Shardless it's nice because it can destroy baleful Strixes and against D&T. Here the question would be between Grudge and KC though and not EE and KC.
Still I prefer Fire Covenant in all the creature matchups because while KC is card advantage, it actually isn't tempo-advantage most of the time.

[MadRhetoric]

I agree on the "cannot afford to durdle around" part when playing against Infect. My natural conclusion would be to side out Cabal Therapy then though.
1 Pithing Needle against Inkmoth Nexus as well as the 2 Baleful Strixes seem good, too. Personally I would just shave the whole Cabal Therapy + Probe package and put in more of these.

Now the reason why I don't like Kolaghan's Command is that it doesn't really everything I want. Most importantly: It doesn't destroy enchantments, especially counterbalance. Also it doesn't kill Tarmogoyf or Mother of Runes if I need it. I know EE is a very important card if you don't play green from my days of playing Grixis Pyromancer with DTT.
Also KC doesn't do very well against Miracles (discard and 2 damage are hardly relevant, so is destroying an artifact) or other grindy decks like Jund or Nic-Fit. Only against Shardless it's nice because it can destroy baleful Strixes and against D&T. Here the question would be between Grudge and KC though and not EE and KC.
Still I prefer Fire Covenant in all the creature matchups because while KC is card advantage, it actually isn't tempo-advantage most of the time.

Thanks for the input. I've been VERY happy with cabal therapies in that match-up so I definitely don't want to take those out. As a "critical mass of cards in hand" combo deck, cabal therapy has been great for me and they have no way real way to protect against it, especially given flashback. I never liked bringing in answers to Inkmoth as the answers never address any of their other cards and we have wastelands available to us as well. You may be right given it's a 1 card answer to every nexus, so would love to hear others' thoughts as well. I don't like strixes in the match-up as tapping 2 mana early for a non-threat, non-removal card is difficult. Along with the fact it doesn't deal with agent/apostle's blessing/berserk, I'm not a fan.

Your points on EE/KC are very interesting and maybe I'm not fully utilizing EE. What match-ups do you like it in? It sounds like you're bringing it in against miracles as a counterbalance answer, which I had not been using it for. And you bring it in against tarmogoyf decks and D&T? I just feel like it would be underwhelming in those matches. My plan for KC was:
Eldrazi (chalice/thorn/jitte removal, mimic/reshaper removal, delver return)
D&T (Tons of applications here really)
Delver (Kill + return/discard)
Shardless (Tons of applications)

I actually bought a fire covenant just so I have it as an available option. The card seems amazing and I definitely want to test it, but it doesn't address any specific problems so I don't feel like I need it for the GP. Good to know others have been happy with it though.

[dedicateddan]

Noah Walker's latest list was mentioned in this article
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/sideboarding-against-lands/

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Forked Bolt
2 Baleful Strix

What's the consensus on Abrupt Decay versus no Abrupt Decay in a meta with a healthy amount of Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance?

[jrsthethird]

I'm picking this up again after finally purchasing all the duals I need to finish it. Hoping everything shows up in time for EE next weekend:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce

2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Painful Truths

I'm a big fan of Stifle so I'm like 90% set on running a Stifle version. Always a fan of Clique too, especially for an extra flier in the main with Eldrazi already. I've thought about a 1x Tombstalker for more pressure in the air too.

Sideboard is put together from looking at a few lists. I never played with Decay or Truths in the sideboard before, so I'm not sure how they'll perform. I did order a Flusterstorm, so I'm hoping to find some room in the board for that too.

[Agrippa91]

@MadRhetoric:
I don't play EE anymore, check out my list below. I'd recommend it against Tarmogoyf decks and decks with Chalice and nasty enchantments, though.

@jrsthethird:
I share your (rather unpopular) affection for Stifle in Grixis. You can check my list below.
I hope you bring in your decays against other Delver /Tarmogoyf decks, too. With the stifles to protect our Tropical and the fact that they don't bring in gy-hate for shaman you can cast them very reliably.

Something to think about imo is the Vendilion Clique:
It really doesn't fit in the mana denial plan imo: Not only does it tap you out of stifle, it also draws your opponent into potential extra lands. Without stifle it's not that important imo what they actually have in their hand, we're more concerned about restricting their colored mana so they can't cast everything at once.
All i all I really think that the Clique is good in the Therapy-version because it
a) gives you extra looks on their hand and
b) cares more for the long run and the card quality in their hand

I would instead really recommend another removal in either a Forked Bolt or a Dismember, depending on your meta (but leaning towards Forked Bolt because you have enough answers to Tarmogoyf in your sb).
I find the 5th removal to be extremely important because very often an opponent's drs can put your entire stifle-wasteland-plan to trash (hence I prefer the F-Bolt).

I'd also recommend trying Divert instead of the Painful Truths in the sb: As with Vendilion Clique with this deck you want to hold mana open and this card is just nuts against BUG (and Burn). They very often tap out and 2-for-1-ing them while still maintaining tempo (you can redirect FoW to Divert itself, removal to their creatures and discard to them).

The Fire Covenant is really nice against fair creature decks (including Eldrazi) and the card you want instead of Painful Truths: It's card advantage, too, but not at the loss of tempo like PT is. Instead it gets you ahead on board and you can cast it eot to hold open stuff when necessary.
I really like the package of 1 Fire Covenant and 1 Divert against these grindy fair decks, be it Shardless, Nic-Fit, Maverick or Elves.

Personally I also don't like the second Pyroblast in the sb as it's way less good than the first one:
I want one against every BUG variant and Miracles as well as combo, but the second one can be really awkward at times, I like having an Invasive Surgery instead. this card is also really good against Shardless and Miracles with the upside of being good against Combo (including elves) and Lands, too.

Not sure why you would want the Dismember, is it against Angler? Otherwise a third decay should take the place imo since Dismember often times doesn't kill goyf postboard because even BUG Delver boards in their Strixes. Plus paying life to play around dazes they might or might not have always feels really bad to me. But that's just my experience.

[jrsthethird]

I hope you bring in your decays against other Delver /Tarmogoyf decks, too. With the stifles to protect our Tropical and the fact that they don't bring in gy-hate for shaman you can cast them very reliably.

I was thinking this but haven't tested yet.


Something to think about imo is the Vendilion Clique:
It really doesn't fit in the mana denial plan imo: Not only does it tap you out of stifle, it also draws your opponent into potential extra lands. Without stifle it's not that important imo what they actually have in their hand, we're more concerned about restricting their colored mana so they can't cast everything at once.
All i all I really think that the Clique is good in the Therapy-version because it
a) gives you extra looks on their hand and
b) cares more for the long run and the card quality in their hand

These are good points. Honestly I like it more for the flash/flying body than the actual disruption. I understand TNN is better for this but doesn't have flash and the ability to disrupt. I agree that tapping out for a 3 drop is pretty bad, but with flash you can do this with more versatility. The extra peek is great for Therapies in games 2/3, especially since I'm only running 3 Probes.

I'm kinda wondering if anyone has tested Tombstalker. A 2-mana 5/5 flyer is still stupid good. Why outclass Goyf when you can fly over him?


I'd also recommend trying Divert instead of the Painful Truths in the sb: As with Vendilion Clique with this deck you want to hold mana open and this card is just nuts against BUG (and Burn). They very often tap out and 2-for-1-ing them while still maintaining tempo (you can redirect FoW to Divert itself, removal to their creatures and discard to them).

I forgot about this card. Thanks.


Personally I also don't like the second Pyroblast in the sb as it's way less good than the first one:
I want one against every BUG variant and Miracles as well as combo, but the second one can be really awkward at times, I like having an Invasive Surgery instead. this card is also really good against Shardless and Miracles with the upside of being good against Combo (including elves) and Lands, too.

I was thinking about Surgery, but I was wondering how often we get delirium against combo decks. 3/4 of it is easy (Instant, Sorcery, Land), but the only other card type in the deck is Creature and we don't have a way to reliably put it there ourselves. We have to depend on our opponent countering/killing something first. Against fair decks (and Lands/Loam decks) this is likely, but against combo decks like Elves/Storm, how likely will they kill our guy so that we can get delirium?


Not sure why you would want the Dismember, is it against Angler? Otherwise a third decay should take the place imo since Dismember often times doesn't kill goyf postboard because even BUG Delver boards in their Strixes. Plus paying life to play around dazes they might or might not have always feels really bad to me. But that's just my experience.

I'm worried about being shut off of G mana and I don't want to commit too many slots to something that may become completely uncastable. I see you're running a second Trop in the board to support the 3 Decay/1 Grip; I don't think I want to go down that road. 2 green cards is 2 more than I'm used to in the past and I'm not sold on going deeper than that.

I was also considering Flusterstorm, Baleful Strix, Spell Pierce, Rough // Tumble, Disfigure, Darkblast, and Submerge as sideboard slots.

What is your single Hydroblast for?

[Agrippa91]

Decay:
I have tested with my configuration against a friend who ran RUG, then Hymn-BUG and now Stifle-BUG and it's just a really solid card against their goyfs. More then one is sometimes shady when your mana doesn't come together, but since you can precent your opponent from casting goyfs for quite some time with wasteland/stifle/daze I'm very satisfied with boarding in 3 decays and 1 trop (which makes me less defensive with my stifles).

Clique:
Just my thinking, I just tested with it a bit tbh. Your reasoning seems solid though.

Tombstalker:
BB is a LOT to ask for this deck. You basically never want BB so you can really only cast it if you get either both of your Useas (which leads to bad mana) or if you have a DRS live for a turn. I think Tombstalker might be way too demanding on your manabase.

Invasive Surgery:
You really only need the Delirium against Life from the Loam decks. And since these run at least one kind of removal, often times even Punishing Fire, Delirium is very accomplishable in these matchups. Against Storm, S&S, Miracles, Elves and Shardless though you really don't need the Delirium. Of course it's nice to see their hand and all that but it really isn't necessary, it's just an envelop (a really underplayed card) here.
The thing that puts it over the top for me though is that it can just get your opponent's Loams without him having the chance to do anything about it. With stifle and decays lands is actually a really winnable matchup (went 2-1 and 2-0 against it in Frankfurt).

Hydroblast:
1. I really don't like how the standard Noah Walker list has like no chance against burn (which is a rather winnable matchups with the right sb cards).
By merging my orignal 2 pyroblasts and 2 surgicals into 1 se, 1 pb and 1 invasive surgery I made room for an additional card that really helps me win this matchup more consistently. Reason being of course that I play more on the lower tables than Noah Walker might where Burn is a thing.
2. I also just like it against Blood Moon (which is rather good against this deck if it gets resolved), especially in Miracles (where it also hits PB and Staticaster).
3. It's just really good to untap with YP in delver mirrors, sometimes it can just win the game by itself. Being able to protect him from red stuff for one turn can be crucial (Bolt, Rough, Lavamancer). It also stops opponents' YPs from hitting the board.
4. Against lands being able to counter a Gamble, killing a Sulfuric Vortex or safe your DRS from a Punishing Fire for 1 turn can just win you the game.

To your sideboard choices:

Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce:
I honestly think that Invasive Surgery is just the better card since it actually hardcounters stuff. Even storm can play around flusterstorm by playing their discard first.

Rough // Tumble
This card destroys almost every creature you play. I wouldn't play it and fear it every time I play against RUG (another reason for Hydroblast).

Disfigure
I guess you mean Dismember. Dismember gets worse when you play Baleful Strix since it grows their goyfs. I honestly don't know why Noah is playing this card.

Darkblast
I honestly am not in love with this card since people value it too highly imo. I'd rather play a more versatile Forked Bolt in the sb tbh.

Submerge
I think we have better options in our colors. Also Tarmogoyf doesn't see as much play as it used to, at least in my expression. I'd go for a more general answer to big creatures.

Baleful Strix
I think this card is too passive. My friend has it in his BUG stifle list and it's there to "counter" my angler, but when he has it out I just sit back and wait for a removal. That said it grows his goyf, so I like it way better in his deck than in Grixis.

[MadRhetoric]

I'm worried about being shut off of G mana and I don't want to commit too many slots to something that may become completely uncastable. I see you're running a second Trop in the board to support the 3 Decay/1 Grip; I don't think I want to go down that road. 2 green cards is 2 more than I'm used to in the past and I'm not sold on going deeper than that.

I was also considering Flusterstorm, Baleful Strix, Spell Pierce, Rough // Tumble, Disfigure, Darkblast, and Submerge as sideboard slots.

I completely agree with all the points on decay. I would love to run it, but the thought of either having it on turn 2 and not having red until turn 3 or only being able to cast it turn 3+ both seem unappealing.

Baleful strix has been one of my best sideboard cards. I would have never chosen to play it but I'm so glad I tested it after seeing it in Noah's lists. Against the fair creature decks, it's a guaranteed 2 for 1 that kills their best creature, that sometimes gets in for damage, and costs 2 mana. I've considered going up to three specifically when I know I'll run into at least 1 eldrazi player in a tourney.

[VERTUK]

I was skepticall about Decay for obvious reasons (it makes your mana base, land selection a lot worse) but trying a list similar to Peter White's (undefeated top 8 in a 300 players event) i realize that in certain metagames you win more than you lose. This is my list:

Its very better vs Chalice and Counterbalance matchups, being worse vs Storm and maybe Delver decks (not a lot tested). It has 19 lands to support Decays and a strong side vs Lands and other grindy matchups (not Eldrazi in my LGS).

MAIN
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand

SIDEBOARD
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

[jrsthethird]

After some testing and discussion with my friend (and going about 7 games in a row losing to Miracles) I switched up the list to a Therapy list without Stifle and took the next match. Maybe I was just running bad, but I do really enjoy the Therapies too. I'm still on the fence on which option is better, but I feel that right now, with a week to prepare for the big event, Therapy plays more into my natural ability than Stifle does. I tested a friend against Eldrazi and stomped him all 3 games; granted he was using my test list (Top 8 SCG Legacy Classic list with Metamorphs) and not too familiar with the deck, but he seemed impressed when I nailed a blind Therapy on his Matter Reshaper.

Currently testing the following changes to my preceding list:

Main:
-4 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce
+3 Therapy
+1 Probe
+1 Forked Bolt

SB:
-1 Therapy
-1 Surgical
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Painful Truths
-1 Dismember
+1 Divert
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Hydroblast

[Agrippa91]

Stifle is definitely a card you have to be comfortable with, I agree.
I'm not sure if I'd recommend Divert without stifle though. For the card to be effective you really need to hold it up as often as possible, especially in the early game.

[jrsthethird]

I'm not sure if I'd recommend Divert without stifle though. For the card to be effective you really need to hold it up as often as possible, especially in the early game.

Good to know, I'll keep that in mind.

[Darkness]

Anyone else surprised to see so many Grixis Delver decks without Abrupt Decay in their 75?

[rcwraspy]

Anyone else surprised to see so many Grixis Delver decks without Abrupt Decay in their 75?

Not really. It's a fairly real cost to dedicate the slots and move the mana around to support the Decays. Grixis Delver already has a fair to even matchup against Miracles and Eldrazi (where AD would help hit Chalice) so it's a matter of weighing whether that cost is worth it. It may not be.

[VERTUK]

It depends on the metagame i guess. In a miracles and eldrazis world AD is very good, but at the cost of losing punch vs combo and mirror.

[Agrippa91]

I agree that Eldrazi is about even, especially when you calculate post-board, too.
Miracles though feels quite unfavored imo. Not as much as let's say Lands, but still pretty unfavored. I mean just ask any Miracles player what he wants to play against all day and he'll tell you delver decks.

[eldub]

Question for those of you who have played both Grixis and 4C...

Is the 3rd Volcanic really necessary in Grixis (Noah Walker version)? The standard 8 fetch 3/2/1 Dual mana base seems ubiquitous, but in all of my games I rarely, if ever, have fetched up the third Volcanic. Is it possible that a 9th fetch is actually a reasonable replacement here? The only dual I actively protect is the 2nd Underground Sea, and to be honest I tend to use more Black mana than Red over the course of most games due to Deathrite activations. The main deck also has 8 Black cards vs 7 Red cards.

As a side note, I am not running any RR sideboard cards (Sulfuric Vortex).

[Darkness]

How do you all board against Shardless BUG regarding Therapies vs Dazes? I am not playing the stifle list. I had 4 therapies against shardless but the games where visions didn't resolve or wasn't cast felt like I was drawing them to frequently. I'm thinking 2-3 Therapies going forward.

[jrsthethird]

Question for those of you who have played both Grixis and 4C...

Is the 3rd Volcanic really necessary in Grixis (Noah Walker version)? The standard 8 fetch 3/2/1 Dual mana base seems ubiquitous, but in all of my games I rarely, if ever, have fetched up the third Volcanic. Is it possible that a 9th fetch is actually a reasonable replacement here? The only dual I actively protect is the 2nd Underground Sea, and to be honest I tend to use more Black mana than Red over the course of most games due to Deathrite activations. The main deck also has 8 Black cards vs 7 Red cards.

As a side note, I am not running any RR sideboard cards (Sulfuric Vortex).

Relevant question for me too; due to incompetence on both mine and a seller's behalf, I will likely have bought an entire set of Underground Seas by EE4 and only two Volcanics by then.

[btm10]

How do you all board against Shardless BUG regarding Therapies vs Dazes? I am not playing the stifle list. I had 4 therapies against shardless but the games where visions didn't resolve or wasn't cast felt like I was drawing them to frequently. I'm thinking 2-3 Therapies going forward.

4 Therapy seems like a lot against a deck that's trying to get hellbent anyway. Daze is solid if uninspiring, but Therapy is still good early since they should be leaving in Forces. I'd go with 4/2 Daze/Therapy on the play and 3/3 on the draw, possibly substitting a Pyroblast for a Daze.

[TarmoX]

Hi Guys!
Im new to the deck and want to ask for what match up baleful strix and winter orb are in SB???

[VERTUK]

Relevant question for me too; due to incompetence on both mine and a seller's behalf, I will likely have bought an entire set of Underground Seas by EE4 and only two Volcanics by then.

Think that MD you only need black for gurmag and DRS activations (and cabal therapy if u play them). Tropical acts like the 3 U. sea when u want to cast DRS. Also, is nice when you have 2 volcs and you can play a pyromancer and still have an open red for bolts.

[VERTUK]

Hi Guys!
Im new to the deck and want to ask for what match up baleful strix and winter orb are in SB???

Baleful is great vs big creatures decks, as Eldrazi or Reliquary decks, and good vs creatures decks as delver decks, shardless and D&T.

Winter orb is great vs all grindy matchups, as Lands, Miracles or Nic Fit, and i saw people playing it vs Shardless (not worthy in my opinion)

[TarmoX]

Baleful is great vs big creatures decks, as Eldrazi or Reliquary decks, and good vs creatures decks as delver decks, shardless and D&T.

Winter orb is great vs all grindy matchups, as Lands, Miracles or Nic Fit, and i saw people playing it vs Shardless (not worthy in my opinion)


Thank you VERTUK! :smile:

[Realize]

Vertuk hit it spot on.

I was also surprised to see it in Shardless, but i warmed up to it. Note that shardless plays more 3-4 mana cards, and that daze lets us reset our lands really effectively with the orb. I think that a winter orb gameplan that prioritizes killing enemy dr.s and protecting our own is a pretty good way to approach the matchup.

[jrsthethird]

Think that MD you only need black for gurmag and DRS activations (and cabal therapy if u play them). Tropical acts like the 3 U. sea when u want to cast DRS. Also, is nice when you have 2 volcs and you can play a pyromancer and still have an open red for bolts.

I understand that. I'm playing Therapy and Angler, with Decay in the SB. I bought a playset each of Underground Seas and Volcanics (and a Trop) in the past two weeks, despite the fact that I only intended to purchase the manabase for this deck (3/2/1 standard), I inadvertently got 2 extra Seas and a Volc. Because I'm an idiot and originally bought 3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Trop for the deck, and then the last Volc I ordered, the guy mixed up the envelopes and sent me the Sea instead. This means I won't get the Volc until next week at least, since he needs to get it back first to resend to me.

The price was great on the Sea, so I said I would keep it and pay him (rather than send it back), so I bought a fourth Volc last night. I'm hoping it arrives by Saturday for the tournament; if not, I will need to either run

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

OR

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Steam Vents

Or some other configuration (3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Taiga...so bad). Obviously shockland is annoying, so I would like to find a configuration where having 3 Sea/2 Volc makes sense. I don't know if that exists.

[rcwraspy]

I understand that. I'm playing Therapy and Angler, with Decay in the SB. I bought a playset each of Underground Seas and Volcanics (and a Trop) in the past two weeks, despite the fact that I only intended to purchase the manabase for this deck (3/2/1 standard), I inadvertently got 2 extra Seas and a Volc. Because I'm an idiot and originally bought 3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Trop for the deck, and then the last Volc I ordered, the guy mixed up the envelopes and sent me the Sea instead. This means I won't get the Volc until next week at least, since he needs to get it back first to resend to me.

The price was great on the Sea, so I said I would keep it and pay him (rather than send it back), so I bought a fourth Volc last night. I'm hoping it arrives by Saturday for the tournament; if not, I will need to either run

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

OR

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Steam Vents

Or some other configuration (3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Taiga...so bad). Obviously shockland is annoying, so I would like to find a configuration where having 3 Sea/2 Volc makes sense. I don't know if that exists.

I think Steam Vents would be much preferable to a Taiga. Pretty sure we need every land to tap for U and be online for Daze, and if we're the aggressor in most matchups the 2 damage won't be too bad.

The problem is that you're running Decays. Otherwise 3/2/1 is really perfect, with the G only needed for Deathrite activations if we're low on life or against a deck like Reanimator. But with Decay, you'll probably want a second G source with the 2 B sources still being fine.

[eldub]

I'd play 2/2/2 traditional 4C mana base or just play fetch #9 over the third Volc. Don't play a non-blue dual.

[MadRhetoric]

Vertuk hit it spot on.

I was also surprised to see it in Shardless, but i warmed up to it. Note that shardless plays more 3-4 mana cards, and that daze lets us reset our lands really effectively with the orb. I think that a winter orb gameplan that prioritizes killing enemy dr.s and protecting our own is a pretty good way to approach the matchup.

I played against shardless tonight testing Winter Orb in my sideboard for the first time. I won game 2 with exactly this gameplan. He had tons of cards in hands, but I landed painful truths into winter orb when I was the only one with a deathrite. I'm not saying the card is amazing here, but I definitely think it's better than other cards in the deck to warrant bringing in for this match-up.

[MoonDark]

I played against shardless tonight testing Winter Orb in my sideboard for the first time. I won game 2 with exactly this gameplan. He had tons of cards in hands, but I landed painful truths into winter orb when I was the only one with a deathrite. I'm not saying the card is amazing here, but I definitely think it's better than other cards in the deck to warrant bringing in for this match-up.

Speaking about painful truths. I saw many decklists with 2x in their SB. Where do you bring those in and what do you generally take out for them?

[MadRhetoric]

Speaking about painful truths. I saw many decklists with 2x in their SB. Where do you bring those in and what do you generally take out for them?

It's mainly there for Shardless and Miracles. There are probably other grindy match-ups I would consider it in, but those are the big two. And it's been quite great in both of those. I still go back and forth about what to take out against shardless. I think I'm going to try taking out the 4 probes, 2 therapies, and 1 spell pierce as those cards have the least applications and we need strong draws. Against Miracles, I generally take out -1 Wasteland, -2 Gurmag Angler, -1 Forked Bolt/Dismember, and then some number of dazes/bolts depending on if I'm on the play/draw and whether they kept in Jace.

Can anyone tell me what match-ups Darkblast is good in besides D&T/Elves? I see it in so many sideboards but don't see the value of it outside of those.

[MoonDark]

It's mainly there for Shardless and Miracles. There are probably other grindy match-ups I would consider it in, but those are the big two. And it's been quite great in both of those. I still go back and forth about what to take out against shardless. I think I'm going to try taking out the 4 probes, 2 therapies, and 1 spell pierce as those cards have the least applications and we need strong draws. Against Miracles, I generally take out -1 Wasteland, -2 Gurmag Angler, -1 Forked Bolt/Dismember, and then some number of dazes/bolts depending on if I'm on the play/draw and whether they kept in Jace.

Can anyone tell me what match-ups Darkblast is good in besides D&T/Elves? I see it in so many sideboards but don't see the value of it outside of those.

Hey, thanks!

Just wondering why do you take out the angler against miracles? Doesn't it dodge Top/Balance pretty well?

Darkblast works great in the mirror too, like super great.

[MadRhetoric]

Hey, thanks!

Just wondering why do you take out the angler against miracles? Doesn't it dodge Top/Balance pretty well?

Darkblast works great in the mirror too, like super great.

I just remembered Infect is a deck, and I guess Darkblast is awesome there too. But in the mirror? Besides Young Pyro and unflipped Delvers, removing anything else is a 2 for 1 against yourself. Seems weak for a sideboard card, though turboing out some Anglers in the mirror seems nice.

Regarding Angler against Miracles, I take it out because StP/C. Judgment/Terminus all deal with it and also prevent your yard from filling up. While that's true of all your creatures, I hate that Angler can almost never be early pressure in this match-up. It also gets completely blanked by RIP if they bring those in, and possibly a Jace bounce if those are left in as well. I'm not sure if this is the correct way of thinking though, and would love to hear what other people think. I can definitely see a good gameplan being to play a normal game and have it as a back-up threat that's fast and dodges top/balance.

[Darkness]

I agree about Angler in on the miracles MU, I think it's too easily answered, and the thought of having them in my hand and having an RiP or a Jace bounce makes me want to vomit.

[rcwraspy]

I just remembered Infect is a deck, and I guess Darkblast is awesome there too. But in the mirror? Besides Young Pyro and unflipped Delvers, removing anything else is a 2 for 1 against yourself. Seems weak for a sideboard card, though turboing out some Anglers in the mirror seems nice.

Regarding Angler against Miracles, I take it out because StP/C. Judgment/Terminus all deal with it and also prevent your yard from filling up. While that's true of all your creatures, I hate that Angler can almost never be early pressure in this match-up. It also gets completely blanked by RIP if they bring those in, and possibly a Jace bounce if those are left in as well. I'm not sure if this is the correct way of thinking though, and would love to hear what other people think. I can definitely see a good gameplan being to play a normal game and have it as a back-up threat that's fast and dodges top/balance.

Remember that against a 2-butt creature like DRS or a flipped Delver you can Darkblast in your upkeep then dredge your draw step to get it back and get the second -1/-1 hit on them.

Also, I'm probably pretty happy if Miracles is boarding in RIP against us. It only affects Anglers, DRS and half of Therapy. They want to be interacting with us on the stack and board more than in the yard.

[MadRhetoric]

Remember that against a 2-butt creature like DRS or a flipped Delver you can Darkblast in your upkeep then dredge your draw step to get it back and get the second -1/-1 hit on them.

Also, I'm probably pretty happy if Miracles is boarding in RIP against us. It only affects Anglers, DRS and half of Therapy. They want to be interacting with us on the stack and board more than in the yard.

Yes that was the 2 for 1 against yourself I was talking about as you're giving up a draw step. I don't like that at all, but considering how good it would be against D&T/Infect I'm going to try it out.

And I agree that RIP isn't a great card against us and it may not be right for them to bring it in, but some people do and it's another factor making Anglers weak. But I'm also on a build with TNN main and Clique side, so I have 2 great threats outside of 1CMC anyway.

[Agrippa91]

I guess the reason why Noah put Lavamancer and Darkblast in the same deck is so that he gets reliably more cards in his graveyard via Darkblast to feed his Lavamancer besides Anglers and Deathrites post-board. You can't just play 2 Lavamancers instead (even though it's definitely a better card).

[Borealis]

Yes that was the 2 for 1 against yourself I was talking about as you're giving up a draw step. I don't like that at all, but considering how good it would be against D&T/Infect I'm going to try it out.

And I agree that RIP isn't a great card against us and it may not be right for them to bring it in, but some people do and it's another factor making Anglers weak. But I'm also on a build with TNN main and Clique side, so I have 2 great threats outside of 1CMC anyway.


Darkblast does seems very good in the mirror. It wins any creature standoff by shrinking their guy while yours attacks through, or allows you to block profitably. Cleaning up 8 out of 14 possible threats (assuming you have it before delver flips) is also very relevant since it takes the stress off your Bolts, allowing them to hit DRS or go upstairs. In particular the fact that it wipes out opposing Pyros (and tokens), while generating your own steady stream of tokens off an active pyro on your side, really makes it shine in my opinion. The GY synergy is just gravy.

Whether you choose blast or lavaman is a meta call I think. But blast asks less of you and doesn't have summoning sickness or die to removal, while adding to your grave rather than subtracting.

Just my 2cents as a recent lurker though. :)

[MoonDark]

I'm learning the deck, and so far it's been quite good!

I was wondering what's the Sideboard/Gameplan against BUG Shardless

SB:

2 Fluster Storm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix

Main Deck
======

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

Other Spells

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

[MadRhetoric]

I played EE4 yesterday, going 6-2 and then drawing the final round to split our prizes. Here's a quick summary.

Round 1 (Win 2-0): Bye
Round 2 (Win 2-1): Grixis Delver mirror. The only real noteworthy thing here is that K's Command was an awesome 2 for 1 in both sideboard games.
Round 3 (Win 2-1): Death and Taxes. I just barely lose game 2 even though he has both Batterskull and SoF&I. I feel like I only lose this match-up to equipment and am so happy to have a second artifact destruction card in the 75.
Round 4 (Lose 1-2): UR Delver. Game 1 I lose to Fireblast into PoP. Game 3 I lose to EoT PoP, untap PoP. I should have played less lands and think I deserved to lose, even though I was ahead on board and feel like he topdecked into the right stuff at the right time. But nice guy and he played well.
Round 5 (Lose 0-2): Death and Taxes. These were those games where D&T makes a blue deck look like a joke.
Ruond 6 (Win 2-1): Storm. We play two exciting games and don't have much time for game 3. We go to turns and on his last turn, my opponent storms enough to make sure he'll live, but doesn't kill me. We both bring up that a draw is worthless and my opponent, being a super nice guy, conceded to me as it did seem like I would have won if we had time. Huge props to him and I've done this before and will do it next time for someone else. Another reason why the legacy community is awesome and I love these tournies.
Round 7 (Wn 2-1): Lands. In game 3, my opponent gets a Tabernacle in play when I have one land, 2 flipped delvers, and 1 deathrite in play. He also gets a sphere of resistance out. I keep one delver and the deathrite, which is basically just to eat a land in his yard every turn since he had tons. I realize this since he Crop Rotation'd for the Tabernacle, he only has one land that actually makes mana. He just says draw-go and is basically locked under his own sphere as well. He durdles and I win swinging for 3 a few times. *Phew*
Round 8 (Win 2-0): Shardless BUG. He opens with fetch for swamp, play deathrite. I play Volcanic and bolt his deathrite. He plays wasteland, kills my volc, and passes. I play a land and other things and pass. He draws, sighs, and passes. I can't help but savor seeing a player get mana screwed after wastelanding their opponent's only land in play :) Game 2, he gets an early deathrite and Liliana, and I think I'm screwed. I play a Painful Truths and a Strix as Lili bait. He edits me, but I follow it up with TNN, Young Pyro, Dismember his deathrite. After he makes me sac the elemental, I kill the Lili and then him. My new sideboard strategy (-4 probes, -2 therapy, -1 FoW, +2 Strix, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Painful Truths, +1 K. Command) worked out great. All business spells is where it's at.
Round 9 (Split): My opponent offers the split and I happily accept so my friend and I can head back home. He says he's playing Aggro Loam and I'm happy to have avoided that lol.

General thoughts on the deck:
- The deck is amazing and there is no match-up I feel I can't win. My friend asked me during the tourney which deck I would want to play the next round if I could choose. I said I don't really care, all i want is to be on the play.
- Drew the Darkblast a few times and was generally disappointed. I want to find something else for that slot.
- K's Command continued to be amazing and will definitely be keeping it.
- Clique hasn't been that great. I'm thinking I might replace this slot as well.

General thoughts on the event:
- The venue was AWFUL. It basically had no AC on a 90 degree day. Everyone was talking about how it reminded them of the high school locker room. Also, I was waiting with a friend for the bathroom and was then told the area was being closed and I needed to move. The rep from Tales of Adeventure said to me off to the side that there were issues with the venue people and he apologized. I'm sure they understood how bad it was and would avoid it in the future, but do not go to an event if it's held at the Merchant Square Mall.
- Tales of Adeventure themselves are awesome and the tourney, along with the satellite series leading up to it, are amazing. The legacy community is just fucking awesome and all of my opponents were cool.

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Winter Orb
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Vendilion Clique

[Julien]

Question about sideboard cards dedicated to killing small creatures. Assuming you have the stock list (4 bolts main, 1 forked bolt main), which of these is the best for the current meta?

Darkblast (http://magiccards.info/query?q=darkblast)
Electrickery (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Electrickery)
Fire Covenant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Fire+Covenant)
Forked Bolt (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/146.html)
Grim Lavamancer (http://magiccards.info/query?q=grim+lavamancer)
Izzet Staticaster (http://magiccards.info/query?q=izzet+sta&v=card&s=cname)
Rough // Tumble (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/114a.html)
Sudden Demise (http://magiccards.info/query?q=sudden+demise)
Edit: Golgari Charm (http://magiccards.info/rtr/en/164.html)

Also, any options that I missed?

[Agrippa91]

Question about sideboard cards dedicated to killing small creatures. Assuming you have the stock list (4 bolts main, 1 forked bolt main), which of these is the best for the current meta?

Darkblast (http://magiccards.info/query?q=darkblast)
Electrickery (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Electrickery)
Fire Covenant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Fire+Covenant)
Forked Bolt (http://magiccards.info/roe/en/146.html)
Grim Lavamancer (http://magiccards.info/query?q=grim+lavamancer)
Izzet Staticaster (http://magiccards.info/query?q=izzet+sta&v=card&s=cname)
Rough // Tumble (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/114a.html)
Sudden Demise (http://magiccards.info/query?q=sudden+demise)

Also, any options that I missed?

Why would anybody play Rough // Tumble with DRS and YP, perhaps even TNN in the deck?
Also Sudden Demise seems really narrow against elves tbh (D&T has mother and thalia).

I think Grim Lavamancer, Forked Bolt and Fire Covenant are the best options and also fairly broad (electrickery and staticaster only killing 1-toughness creatures).

Forked Bolt is just super efficient and should not miss in the 75 imo.

Grim Lavamancer is slow, but efficient and gives card advantage, but you shouldn't have too much other stuff that eats your gy (like murderous cut)

Fire Covenant is super efficient, but you shouldn't have much stuff that requires paying life when you board this in (e.g. Dismember, Probe).

I actually switched my sideboard a bit (I'm still playing Forked Bolt, Spell Pierce and 4 Stifles in the mainboard):
- 1 Pithing Needle
- 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 1 Surgical Extraction
- 1 Pyroblast
- 1 Hydroblast
- 1 Invasive Surgery
- 1 Divert
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 1 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Terminate
- 1 Fire Covenant

I added terminate because I really dislike having dismember against 5/6 tarmogoyfs. Also i'm almost always paying 2 mana for dismember and getting it countered by a blue goyf player means often times gg because of the double life loss. Fire Covenant also becomes better that way.

What do you guys think? Would you give Terminate a shot in your sideboard? I tested against BUG Delver yesterday and it was really good, he was the only one that had Baleful Strixes and still it felt like goyf was a 5/6 half of the time.

[kiwiatv]

Brought Grixis Delver to EE4 on Saturday. I played a standard Noah Walker list -1 Gitaxian Probe +1 Chain Lightning since I feel like having essentially a fifth bolt isn't really a bad thing, and I find myself failing to close games out when the opponent is almost there. It's been good for me in testing.

Did miserable, went 1-4 drop. I'm not sure what went wrong. I played DnT round 1, and in game 3 missed a trigger off of the 2 young pyro's I had in play which would have actually won me the game. I tried to not get too tilted...I think I missed it because I accidentally initially underpaid with a Thalia on the field, and when the opponent corrected me it just threw me off in the moment and I forgot. It's crazy how one moment can make such a big difference. Ultimately Jitte killed me.

Round 2 was Reanimator, and DRS did his thing and got me there in 3. I actually kept a weak hand game 3 just because I had surgical in it, and boy did it pay off. He mulled to 5, and turn 1 entombed a griselbrand. I extracted it, and his hand was just lands, exhume, and another griselbrand. Ouch.

Round 3 was eldrazi and taxes with a player who must have been new to it. He played pretty poorly, but Jitte got me in games 2 and 3. That card is so absurd.

Round 4 was shardless, and he outdrew me plain and simple. We had some good games of magic though, the most fun of the whole day. I blind named Jace on a cabal therapy and nailed it, which was awesome.

Round 5 was DnT again. Game 1 I had him the next turn unless he played a tax effect. He topdecks vryn wingmare, putting me one off of enough mana to bolt for game. Game 2 he saw 4 wastelands in 5 turns and Rest in Peace to shut down DRS. It was embarrassing.

I'm not sure if I'm in a funk or what, but I just haven't been putting up results recently. I definitely want something for artifacts beyond 1 ancient grudge. I'm considering a more direct burn-like list that one of the guys was playing yesterday with Swiftspear instead of DRS and black for Therapy. He was tearing it up, and I'm waiting for decklists to be released since I'm sure he finished well. Also, I never really cared about Rest in Peace before, but it blew me apart several times in this tournament. Just a lot of DnT in this tournament.

[Agrippa91]

That list yesterday was without Wastelands though, it was pretty much UR Delver with a superlight splash for therapy in the sb and anglers in the mb.
Though tbh not splashing black and just having eidolon in the sb seems better against combo than discard to me. Angler is certainly an argument though, I wouldn't want to play without them.

The thing I found really interesting with the list yesterday was that he was able to play Rough/Tumble in the sb because he was playing 4 delver 4 swiftspear 4 stormchaser (as far as I understood). That makes the black splash weird though because I thought it was for Therapy which would imply Pyromancers.

[Julien]

Building the correct sideboard is daunting so here's a comprehensive list of cards this archetype is interested in using. Let me know if there were cards that I missed or if you have any new tech. What cards you put in a sideboard depend on if you are playing the 4 Gitaxian Probe 2 Cabal Therapy (stock) version of the deck or the Stifle version of the deck as well as the meta you play in.

Graveyard Hate:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Small Creature Hate:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Electrickery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Plague

Creature Hate:
1 Baleful Strix
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Terminate

Artifact Hate:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Null Rod

Counterspells:
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

Discard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique

Value:
1 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Multi-Purpose:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command

Color-Based Hate:
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Deathmark
1 Submerge
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Mind Harness

[VERTUK]

Vertuk hit it spot on.

I was also surprised to see it in Shardless, but i warmed up to it. Note that shardless plays more 3-4 mana cards, and that daze lets us reset our lands really effectively with the orb. I think that a winter orb gameplan that prioritizes killing enemy dr.s and protecting our own is a pretty good way to approach the matchup.

Yesterday i tested winter orb vs shardless bug and it gives me games 2 and 3. Pretty good if u combine it with a gurmag. Both games he didnt have drs ir i could kill him. I played just one matchup so it needs more testing

[Darkness]

Building the correct sideboard is daunting so here's a comprehensive list of cards this archetype is interested in using. Let me know if there were cards that I missed or if you have any new tech. What cards you put in a sideboard depend on if you are playing the 4 Gitaxian Probe 2 Cabal Therapy (stock) version of the deck or the Stifle version of the deck as well as the meta you play in.

Graveyard Hate:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Small Creature Hate:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Electrickery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Plague

Creature Hate:
1 Baleful Strix
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Terminate

Artifact Hate:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Null Rod

Counterspells:
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

Discard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique

Value:
1 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Multi-Purpose:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command

Color-Based Hate:
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Deathmark
1 Submerge
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Mind Harness

Where's Winter Orb?

[noobslayer]

Building the correct sideboard is daunting so here's a comprehensive list of cards this archetype is interested in using. Let me know if there were cards that I missed or if you have any new tech. What cards you put in a sideboard depend on if you are playing the 4 Gitaxian Probe 2 Cabal Therapy (stock) version of the deck or the Stifle version of the deck as well as the meta you play in.

Graveyard Hate:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Small Creature Hate:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Electrickery
1 Fire Covenant
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sudden Demise
1 Engineered Plague

Creature Hate:
1 Baleful Strix
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Terminate

Artifact Hate:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Null Rod

Counterspells:
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

Discard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique

Value:
1 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Multi-Purpose:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command

Color-Based Hate:
1 Chill
1 Dread of Night
1 Massacre
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Deathmark
1 Submerge
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Mind Harness

I would add winter orb, murderous cut, hydroblast, and invasive surgery.

[jrsthethird]

Went 6-3 at EE4, started 0-2 with a loss to the mirror (he drew the nuts both games) and Lands (same), then I went 5-1 through the rest of the event to earn $100.

Round 3 - Infect - Pretty good game 1, game 2 he was getting in for 1 infect every turn I had to finagle a way to block his Necropede with my Delver so I could stick my Lavamancer. Only got me up to 6 poison, and it was pretty easy from there.
Round 4 - Big Red - one of my old friends from NYC; this was a total blowout. Had answers to his immediate threats and pressure to close it out.
Round 5 - Lands - another old friend from NYC; won game 1, lost game 2 to a naturally drawn Marit Lage, and 3 Deathrites on turn 2 got there game 3.
Round 6 - Reanimator - Lost game 1 to Grizzy, game 2 was super durdly. He drew EEs for my Deathrites, but otherwise all lands, and I drew all countermagic. At one point my hand was 3 FOW, 3 Daze, 1 Pyroblast. He tapped out to hardcast Griselbrand and I hardcast Daze on it. Felt so good. I found pressure shortly after and closed it out. Game 3 Deathrite got there; he tried to stop my Deathrites with an EE on 1 with 2 lands untapped. I Dazed it so he couldn't pop it right away and then dropped a Needle next turn to shut it down.
Round 7 - Grixis Delver - Really good interactive matches, but I felt like I was in the driver's seat the whole time and closed him out handily both games. Notably, he Wasted both my Seas game 1 so I had to fight hard over a DRS so I could stick an Angler to finish him.
Round 8 - Belcher - I punted this matchup. Never saw a FOW all 3 games, and only got game 2 off of a bad Belch (3 cards and then 2nd Taiga for 8 damage) and then a topdecked Grudge. Soft permission wasn't enough.
Round 9 - White Eldrazi - I asked to split prizes ($50/ea), but he asks what I'm playing first. I don't want that to have a bearing on our split, so we play it out. I find out I'm the 5th Grixis Delver matchup he's played that day. Anyway, game 1 is pretty fast; game 2 I have a key Fire Covenant to wipe out a Smasher that was carrying a Jitte before he can grab counters. I close it out shortly after.

My last Volcanic Island came the day before so I was good on mana.

18 lands
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Pyro
2 Angler
1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
4 Probe
3 Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

SB:
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction

Because of the prevalence of Lands in my meta, I dropped the awkward Decay for a Submerge afterwards, and may try to find room for a Kolaghan's Command. May also move the Clique to the SB and run a miser's Stifle main.

[Agrippa91]

Hm, this Spell Pierce in the board seems weird to me. In which matchup where you board this in wouldn't you rather have an Invasive Surgery or a Flusterstorm?

[jrsthethird]

Hm, this Spell Pierce in the board seems weird to me. In which matchup where you board this in wouldn't you rather have an Invasive Surgery or a Flusterstorm?

There are relevant targets in most matchups that Spell Pierce hits that neither Flusterstorm nor Surgery do (any Chalice decks, Miracles lock pieces, Lands accelerants, etc.)

[Agrippa91]

There are relevant targets in most matchups that Spell Pierce hits that neither Flusterstorm nor Surgery do (any Chalice decks, Miracles lock pieces, Lands accelerants, etc.)

so you side in Spell Pierce against Miracles, Eldrazi and Lands? Seems rather weak tbh. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it as a 1-of in the maindeck because it's versatile, but for my sb I definitely want cards that are really good against specific decks.

[Darkness]

so you side in Spell Pierce against Miracles, Eldrazi and Lands? Seems rather weak tbh. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it as a 1-of in the maindeck because it's versatile, but for my sb I definitely want cards that are really good against specific decks.


I agree, you really want your SB hate to hit hard and guarantee a hit of disruption. Spell pierce is good as a miser MD to catch all, but POST board you should be bringing in cards that answer specific threats to the problem cards in the MU. It's a good play early on with a flipped Delver or when you're attacking your opponents mana with Wastelands, but I don't think you'd want to draw it late in the game versus other solid answer cards. Plus, you do not always flip your Delvers and tapping out may be essential to finding a threat you need or looking for the hard piece of disruption. Maybe it's decent with the stifle plan on to disrupt mana but in my opinion there are better cards.

[Manipulato]

Went 6-3 at EE4, started 0-2 with a loss to the mirror (he drew the nuts both games) and Lands (same), then I went 5-1 through the rest of the event to earn $100.

Round 3 - Infect - Pretty good game 1, game 2 he was getting in for 1 infect every turn I had to finagle a way to block his Necropede with my Delver so I could stick my Lavamancer. Only got me up to 6 poison, and it was pretty easy from there.
Round 4 - Big Red - one of my old friends from NYC; this was a total blowout. Had answers to his immediate threats and pressure to close it out.
Round 5 - Lands - another old friend from NYC; won game 1, lost game 2 to a naturally drawn Marit Lage, and 3 Deathrites on turn 2 got there game 3.
Round 6 - Reanimator - Lost game 1 to Grizzy, game 2 was super durdly. He drew EEs for my Deathrites, but otherwise all lands, and I drew all countermagic. At one point my hand was 3 FOW, 3 Daze, 1 Pyroblast. He tapped out to hardcast Griselbrand and I hardcast Daze on it. Felt so good. I found pressure shortly after and closed it out. Game 3 Deathrite got there; he tried to stop my Deathrites with an EE on 1 with 2 lands untapped. I Dazed it so he couldn't pop it right away and then dropped a Needle next turn to shut it down.
Round 7 - Grixis Delver - Really good interactive matches, but I felt like I was in the driver's seat the whole time and closed him out handily both games. Notably, he Wasted both my Seas game 1 so I had to fight hard over a DRS so I could stick an Angler to finish him.
Round 8 - Belcher - I punted this matchup. Never saw a FOW all 3 games, and only got game 2 off of a bad Belch (3 cards and then 2nd Taiga for 8 damage) and then a topdecked Grudge. Soft permission wasn't enough.
Round 9 - White Eldrazi - I asked to split prizes ($50/ea), but he asks what I'm playing first. I don't want that to have a bearing on our split, so we play it out. I find out I'm the 5th Grixis Delver matchup he's played that day. Anyway, game 1 is pretty fast; game 2 I have a key Fire Covenant to wipe out a Smasher that was carrying a Jitte before he can grab counters. I close it out shortly after.

My last Volcanic Island came the day before so I was good on mana.

18 lands
4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Pyro
2 Angler
1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
4 Probe
3 Therapy
1 Forked Bolt

SB:
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction

Because of the prevalence of Lands in my meta, I dropped the awkward Decay for a Submerge afterwards, and may try to find room for a Kolaghan's Command. May also move the Clique to the SB and run a miser's Stifle main.


Gratz on the finish.

I would really add 1-2 Winter Orb to the SB, the card is just bonkers in the current metagame. I talked to Noah Walker on FB and he said he was very happy with 2 Orb in the SB and would play them again. No out to a oposing Gurmag Angler or big Tarmogoyf/Eldrazi whatever is a mistake in my opinion. 1 Dismember or 1 Murderous Cut should be in your 75!

I have to disagree with your statement about the Vendilion Clique. "1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)"
Out of 9 rounds you had 6 MU´s where the Clique is good or solid to keep in the postboard games (Lands, Lands, Reanimator, Belcher, Eldrazi, Big Red), against Lands you just can take away they´re Loam or Gamble, against Eldrazi I really like Clique because it´s a unblockable Flyer in the air + takes away they´re strongest card in hand at the end of the draw step. In all the other MU´s you had (combo) clique is just a hatebear which beats and disrupts them. Sure with Cc3 she´s quite slow but if you not reach T3 against them your dead anyways, flash eot is great to Keep up mana for Flusterstorms, Pierces etc...

About the Pierce Boarding debate...It´s reasonable vs Miracles but really bad against Eldrazi & Lands.

The SB in general Looks a bit iffy but ok...

Greetings

[jrsthethird]

Gratz on the finish.

I would really add 1-2 Winter Orb to the SB, the card is just bonkers in the current metagame. I talked to Noah Walker on FB and he said he was very happy with 2 Orb in the SB and would play them again. No out to a oposing Gurmag Angler or big Tarmogoyf/Eldrazi whatever is a mistake in my opinion. 1 Dismember or 1 Murderous Cut should be in your 75!

I have to disagree with your statement about the Vendilion Clique. "1 Clique (irrelevant; either didn't draw it or sided it out. Didn't see many matches it was good in.)"
Out of 9 rounds you had 6 MU´s where the Clique is good or solid to keep in the postboard games (Lands, Lands, Reanimator, Belcher, Eldrazi, Big Red), against Lands you just can take away they´re Loam or Gamble, against Eldrazi I really like Clique because it´s a unblockable Flyer in the air + takes away they´re strongest card in hand at the end of the draw step. In all the other MU´s you had (combo) clique is just a hatebear which beats and disrupts them. Sure with Cc3 she´s quite slow but if you not reach T3 against them your dead anyways, flash eot is great to Keep up mana for Flusterstorms, Pierces etc...

About the Pierce Boarding debate...It´s reasonable vs Miracles but really bad against Eldrazi & Lands.

The SB in general Looks a bit iffy but ok...

Greetings

I think it was more that I didn't draw the Clique. I love the card but it just wasn't relevant for me at all this weekend. Part of the nature of one-ofs, I suppose. Divert was a similar card; only time I drew it I needed to pitch it to FOW.

I will find room for Winter Orb. I already took out the Painful Truths for a Submerge; not sure yet if I'm happy with it. Handles Goyfs/Marit Lage and the occasional Angler in the mirror (if they have their Trop).

[Manipulato]

Could you guys give me a short boarding plan vs the following decks? The primer was not very helpful because Agrippas AD/Stifle version is just very different from the "standard" lists.

- Miracles
- Shardless BUG
- Colorless Eldrazi
- Grixis Delver/BUG Delver (without Stifle)
- 4c Loam
- Infect
- Death & Taxes

List is nearly the Noah Walker one...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle

Thx

[Richard Arschmann]

Should I be boarding in Painful Truths against D&T? Thalia can make it into a draw 4.

[Draggo]

Could you guys give me a short boarding plan vs the following decks? The primer was not very helpful because Agrippas AD/Stifle version is just very different from the "standard" lists.

- Miracles
- Shardless BUG
- Colorless Eldrazi
- Grixis Delver/BUG Delver (without Stifle)
- 4c Loam
- Infect
- Death & Taxes

List is nearly the Noah Walker one...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle

Thx

Best way to make good sideboard calls is to know why or how you can lose the match-up and then figure out what cards you have to add to improve the odds.

- Miracles
A grind fro control from Miracle point of view.
>Add Winter Orbs, Pyroblast (for Counterbalance and counter wars), Explosives (counterbalance removal), Painfull Truths (I don't have experience with this in the board and I dislike it, but I can see it work in this kind of match-up) and Needle (for Top). You could add more creatures so you don't run out of pressure fast. You need to understand that you should drop 1 or 2 creeps maximum otherwise you will get sweeped out and lose on card advantage.
< remove Forket Bolt/Dismember/Lightning Bolt unless you think they bring in Mentors. You can choose to keep the bolts and remove the discard pack to be able to hit face with the bolts.
- Shardless BUG
Again a grind match-up from the other side of the table.
> Get winter Orbs, Explosives (Goyf and Strix are on 2 cmc), Lavamancer (for Strix and Delver/Deathrite (note sure what they play).
< Drop the discard pack and FoW/Daze depending who is on the draw.
- Colorless Eldrazi
They hit fart and hard. Eldrazi creatures are genrally bigger then yours, kill them and then grind it out.
> Add Strix, Explosives (for Chalice and Endless One), Grudge for the Chalice and occasional disco balls. Can add Needle for Endbringer.
< Lose the discard pack, it's prober;y too slow since Eldrazi runs into topdeck mode fast.
- Grixis Delver/BUG Delver (without Stifle)
Sort of mirror. BUG will add sweepers from the board, Grixis will do the same as you proberly. Getting board control and card advantage is how you will win this.
> Get Strix, Lavamancer and Pyroblasts.
< Drop either FoW or Daze depending on the draw.
You could toy around with the amound of Discard in this match-up. It can be davistating or useless.
- 4c Loam
The big grind from the other side of the table. Destroy the Loam or die trying.
> Get Winter Orb, Surgical and Needle. You can try to add Truths and Grudge (for the Moxes)
< Drop discard pack
- Infect
Wants to win with either a single big hit or a few small hits. Try to deny the creatures on the board.
> Grab Strix, Lavamancer and Pyroblasts (counter or kill the Agent or counterwars), Needle the infect land. Explosives destroy their creatures even if the pump it, so get it and put it on one or two before popping it. Winter orb could help, not sure about that one.
< Drop discard pack. You want to be able to counter or destroy everything.
- Death & Taxes
D&T fights for board control.
> Grudge for the equips or Vial. Needle for the same and Mom or SFM. Winter Orb can make their land hate nullified or wreck you more, I don't know how this will end up. Get Strix and Lavamancer for board control. Explosives is good to blow up Moms and Vials. You can use the Wasteland or the same color mana to get it on 1. For higher numbers Talia won't mess with this one. Personally I like 2 Therapy in this match-up to hit on the fetched equips with SFM. You can go up to 3.
< Drop the FoW. Vial and Cavern will make you cry seeing this card. Depending if you want to keep the discard pack in, drop a few Daze or drop a few Probes.

Just a few hints. You'll need to make the deck fit your own playstyle and swap cards side (or main) accordingly.

[Agrippa91]

To the D&T matchup (which seems very similar postboard since I board out 3 Stifles):

-You can set EE for 1 with Thalia out if you cast if for X is zero, but pay the Thalia tax with colored mana. I'm very sure about it because Joe Lossett told a story about this on his stream.

-You can sometimes target waste with itself if you desperately need a certain color and have DRS out, but your opponent doesn't have lands you can hit. You don't have to target another land.

- Winter Orb seems abysmal in this matchup. I heard it's already a gamble in Shardless, I really can't imagine it being good against a tax deck. I haven't tried it out though, just theorycrafting.

- I really like 2 Forces in this matchup to keep the opponent from going bonkers. Personally I go for the long game in this matchup, grinding them out with my value of flashbacks (therapy, grudge), lavamancer, pyromancer tokens and Fire Covenant/Forked Bolt while I make certain to keep Brainstorms for the last possible moment.
Forces here generally are there to target cards I can't deal with otherwise, most importantly RIP when the board is even (otherwise I just power through and save FoW for whatever interaction they have left). Also forcing a Mother when you have no removal in hand or a creature or equipment that threatens to give the opponent value is very good imo.
Dazes seems nice otp when you're on the tempo plan, then you have to play the matchup accordingly though, I'm not too familiar with that style).

- Personally I really like Probes and Therapies in this matchup. The former give you a really good impression of their hand, I normally fire them off as soon as I can since they won't change their hand via cantrips etc. so it stays the same a long time. I don't find the lifeloss to be significant in this matchup.
Therapies on the other hand are not really dead even in the lategame since they just "counter" a SFM when he gets topdecked. They're also good whenever you opponent "saves" Thalia with Karakas. In the early game they can destroy the opponent's hand since D&T generally gets out of the gate rather slow.

To the Delver mirrors:
- Imo there's an important difference wether you're playing against a delver deck with stifle and a delver deck without stifle.
I agree with Draggo that against a traditional BUG/Grixis opponent it's most important to have as much removal as possible and gain tempo, forcing your opponent to use his cantrip ineffectively and grinding him out.

The main difference with stifle delver decks is that you can't just jam in tons or removal and no counters. You'll find yourself getting wasted and stifled off at least one of your colors most of the time, I had opponents show me their hand after the game with 7 removal spells in them because he didn't board in any flusterstorms and boarded out all FoWs.
You need to be aware that whenever your RUG/BUG/Grixis opponent attacks you with stifle AND creatures you need more than one kind of answer (which makes it that awesome to play imo).
I strongly suggest bringing in any Flusterstorms you have and siding out your Therapies (tempo is an even bigger factor when the opponent has stifle imo). I also don't like FoW tbh since it gets countered rather easily by Spell Pierce, REB, Flusterstorm etc.
Gitaxian Probe can be really good to see what the opponent has in store for you and playing around it as best as you can.
Personally I wouldn't recommend playing around stifle like it's said so often ("crack whenever they're tapped out"). This not only makes your brainstorms and ponders worse, but also makes you really succeptible to wasteland cutting you off a certain color*. On the attricion side it can very well be that you play too many lands this way (with brainstorm basically forcing you to play an additional land each time) and your opponent just outgrinds you with more stuff in play and more cards in hand instead of all these lands on the battlefield. You should rather force your opponent to hold open stifle while you prepare for an answer in the form of flusterstorm or pyroblast.
Remember that your opponent has nothing going for him if he just holds up stifle, but has no pressure on board to force the initiative on you. You will eventually just draw out of it. Try 1-for-1 trading whenever you would have to discard, drawing non-fetchlands can be really key here to be able to cast ponder/brainstorm to find counters for stifle and additional lands.

*example: You have a volcanic, and usea and a fetch. You shouldn't crack the fetch because your opponent can waste you off a mana otherwise. Instead let him keep open stifle if he wants to, optimally you'll get in a spot where you can fight over it with Pyroblast/Flusterstorm/Daze easier.

[Manipulato]

Thx alot for the advices guys :smile: I talked to Noah this week about the boarding strategies but I did not liked the that much. Especially the plan against Eldrazi for example. He boards out all 4 FoW here which I strongly disagree with! He brings in 2 Therapys (so 4 after boarding) instead but that doesnt prevent a T1 Chalice Otd or top decked stuff etc...I really like FoW in this MU even IF they have cavern because IF they have it they´re game plan gets much slower and they´re not able to lay down T1 Chalice/Mimic T2 TKS whatever which I´m super fine with + FoW still counters the "lock pieces" or removal like Chalice, Thorn, Trinisphere, Jitte, Ratchet Bombs, Dismembers...

I think Winter Orb is worth bringing in against Shardless BUG, they´re deck is so full of clunky cc2 cc3 spells that it really hurts them. Especially with Wasteland + Bolt on the Shaman. This deck can operate easily on 1 mana and if we have Shaman out or a Daze which super fine.

I would never ever bring in the Orb vs DnT! Same for Painful Truths! The orb supports they´re gameplan better than ours. Aether vial on the side of them is a really good synergy with orb. So a no go for me. I recognized that Therapy gets baorded out alot and I think Stifle is a good call in the current metagame especially with the 2 Orb SB. Maybe I will switch later to the stifle version but I will test therapy 1st.
Stifle is super weak in the Eldrazi MU but other than that it´s really strong right now (Miracles, Shardless, Delver). It´s not like we loose the Therapy, I would still play them as a 4off in the SB. The only thing which lead me to play the therapy version over the stifle one is that the stifle Version only have space for 4 removal spells MD which I find a bit to low (6 is my personal standard in a delver shell).

I think I will got with the following strategies and see how it goes...

Miracles
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland

Eldrazi
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Lightning Bolt

Shardless BUG
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Gitaxian Probe

Death & Taxes
+ 2 Cabal Therapy
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Gurmag Angler

Infect
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 4 Gitaxian Probe
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gurmag Angler

Delver Mirror
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 2 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gitaxian Probe

[rcwraspy]

- Colorless Eldrazi
They hit fart

Yeah that's pretty much what I think of that deck too.

[Draggo]

Yeah that's pretty much what I think of that deck too.

"fast and hard" is what I meant to say, basicly the same though...

Boarding out the Anglers against D&T as Manipulato suggest is a bad call I think. It's the biggest creature you have and bigger then anything they bring to the table. If you fear for RIP, then take out one. But if you land one it's a house. Runs through or blocks the Batterskull any day.

[Jandrosaurus]

How are y'all doing against the new Miracles hotness: Predict Miracles?

I can't tell if it's better, worse, or about the same as the traditional 4 Entreat the Angels + Jace lists. I feel like they have a ton of answers in Swords, Snap+Swords, and the usual Terminus stuff, while doing better at taxing our resources in the form of must-answer Monastery Mentors.

Pros:
They miss land drops with a lower land count.
No Jace to bounce Gurmag Angler.
Shakier manabase, can be susceptible to Wasteland (I still side out at least 2 for games 2 and 3, though).

Cons:
Actual card advantage in the form of Predict.
They drop threats earlier with Monk (or even Snapcaster) and they get out of hand QUICK if you can't remove them.
Because of the above, you can't just cut a bunch of Lightning Bolts for games 2 and 3.
Swords, Snap + Swords can be a beating after the 3rd or so resolution -___-;

Last night I played 5 games against a 4x Predict, 4x Mentor list (4 post-sideboard) and went 3-2 -- though one of the games I won would definitely have ended in a draw had there been a time limit (Note to self: only cast Winter Orb if I already have a threat on board and another in hand...). However I think I'm more like 3-4 or 3-5 against the deck on MTGO (my decklist on MTGO is Noah's list with some minor SB tweaks).

Current Paper decklist:

Land (18)
1x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (9)
1x Forked Bolt
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Instant (19)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce

Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Young Pyromancer

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Baleful Strix
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Darkblast
1x Dismember
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Winter Orb
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Surgical Extraction

My sideboard plan is:
-4 Daze, -2 Wasteland, -1 Probe, -1 Ponder, -1 Forked Bolt
+3 Cabal Therapy, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Needle, +1 Painful Truths, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Engineered Explosives.

The games I tend to win are the games where I stick a Young Pyromancer and get at least 1 token immediately, then protect it.

Thoughts on my SB plan and the match in general?

[jrsthethird]

I'm fuming right now. Just lost 3 matches in a row on MTGO, 2 against Miracles (1 Legends, 1 Predict), and one UR Delver.

I didn't feel like I could get anywhere against Legends. Early lock game 1 and game 2 I slowed him down and flooded out. Almost got there with Delver when he ripped an Entreat.

Izzet I got killed by Lavamancer game 1, game 2 I got there, but game 3 he get getting gas while I flooded out again. I get really frustrated with Divert because I know he has a Bolt in hand, but he also has another land so I tap out for an additional creature. He untaps, Ponders, then casts the Bolt with only 1 land untapped. I thought he would play around a 2 tax soft counter and play Bolt first, but I would have swung the game in my favor if I had mana up. I feel like this always comes up when I have Divert; I've never actually cast it.

Predict Miracles got me game 1 with all 4 Terminus in the first 20 cards, but I couldn't find a shuffle effect to redistribute my library and then he got the lock. He also hit me with a Predict after I revealed for Delver, which sucked. I got there game 2, but game 3 I landed a turn 1 Needle on Top, then DRS. I Daze the first CB, then he plays a second the next turn. I cast a Delver, he reveals a land, fetches, and then reveals EE. I'm sitting here with Flusterstorm in my hand. Great. He blows up my board next turn and lands a Top, neither of which Flusterstorm does anything against. A couple turns later I draw my Angler, swing, and then Pyromancer next turn. Match clock is running low for me so I jam Pyro to put a one-turn clock. I have Pyroblast/Daze/Fluster in my hand so I figure I'm Terminus-proof. He draws it, casts it, and I build up storm before casting Fluster. He has a Fluster of his own and blows me out.

I never rage like this playing paper but losing to the nuts on MTGO really sets me over the edge. Ugh...

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

This is why I prefer the Stifle build. Gives extra gas for the miracle triggers and doubles as land tempo. With the extra protection, it makes SDT non threatening and allows you to focus primarly on CB.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
went 5:0 undefeated today with the following list:

14 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

18 Lands
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle

My MU's were:

Round 1: BWR Team Italia Won 2:1
Round 2: RUG Delver Won 2:0
Round 3: Shardless BUG Won 2:1
Round 4: Death & Taxes Won 2:1
Round 5: Miracles Won 2:0

The result was strong but the games vs RUG, Shardless & DnT were closer than I like my games, super tough matches.
Winter Orb was a house against Miracles & solid vs Shardless. I would bring in the Orb again vs Shardless, it just stops them from going big with there cardquality.

The boarding was like on the page back exept that I boarded -2 FoW -2 Daze vs DnT Otd & just boarded in the 3rd copie of Therapy because to many Therapy's are bad too and worse topdecks. Board control is more important than discard vs them in my opinion.

Miracles
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland

Eldrazi (Not entirely sure here tbh, still testing the best option)
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Lightning Bolt

Shardless BUG
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 1 Painful Truths
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 4 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Gitaxian Probe

Death & Taxes
+ 1 Cabal Therapy
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
- 3 Force of Will
- 2 Gurmag Angler

OTD -> -1 FoW -2 Daze instead of 3 FoW

Infect
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 1 Engineered Explosives
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 4 Gitaxian Probe
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gurmag Angler

Delver Mirror
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 2 Force of Will
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Gitaxian Probe

[Agrippa91]

@jrsthethird
You really shouldn't board in Divert against Red Delver decks imo. I only have it against BUG/Jund and Burn. BG decks tend to tap out for Abrupt Decay and play a lot of discard, so Divert is really good there. Burn just plays like 1/2 spells that can be diverted and while they play around daze quite often they certainly don't play around spell pierce. Also gets Exquisite Firecraft.
Against Red Delver decks on the other side everybody is playing around Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce as soon as he has 3 mana by casting the removal spell first and something like cantrips later (generally speaking), at least when the opponent has a mana open.

@Manipulato
I don't think you can play any Delver deck with only 4 removal spells nowadays. I see most RUG lists with 6, personally I think 5 is fine when you have enough postboard. Most squeeze in Dismember in the mainboard, but I have enough sb cards that I think I can keep the Forked Bolt (I still hate dismember in this deck). Check out my list below.
I also agree that Force of Will is just a really good card against Eldrazi, countering their Dismember or their TKS/Endless One/Reality Smasher can give us enough tempo to just win the game. And it's always nice to force Chalice.

I actually have changed my list a bit! Still playing Grixis and still playing Abrupt Decays in the sb, but I went down to 2.
Reason being that more than 1 in hand is often times pretty awkward since your main land is still volcanic, this also let me cut the second Tropical from the sideboard. Krosan Grip was cool and really shines in some matchups, but it's just really clunky and is just a weaker card than Abrupt Decay generally speaking.

The 3 cuts (Decay, Krosan Grip, Tropical) gave me room for some cards I really wanted to play:
- Grim Lavamancer as a way to punish creature decks
- Ancient Grudge since I went down on the artifact destruction department, but still hate Eldrazi and D&T.
- Terminate to not only get rid of Angler, but also Goyfs that have Artifacts in the gy, TKSs and Reality Smashers

I still board in the 2 Decays against Tarmogoyf decks, but skip them completely against decks like e.g. Grixis Delver.
Playtested against Grixis Delver (without Decays) and Stifle BUG (with Decays) and it felt really nice. Having enough answers to Tarmogoyf is really cool, look forward to kill Chalices, RIPs and Counterbalances (which is still the main reason for the decays).

My list now looks as follows:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant


Here's some of my sideboarding strategies (outdated):

Miracles (11)
-4 Daze
-4 Wasteland
-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Forked Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Invasive Surgery (trying it out against Terminus, also nice to see shuffle opp's top cards away and see his hand if he brainstormed in response to a therapy)
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge (so much of their game plan is about top that I think it's worth bringing in this card just to screw with top and fetchlands)

It might seem like an overload, but given that Miracle players pretty much want to play against Delver all day it's not the worst I guess.

Eldrazi (6)
-4 Stifle
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

Highly favorable postboard, therefore we can get stomped preboard pretty easily.

Grixis Delver (4)
-2 Force of Will
-2 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Terminate

I like keeping in 2 Forces here because a topdecked angler from either side often times decides the game in my experience.

BUG Delver (6)
-3 Force of Will
-3 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Divert
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate

Since we have so many answers to Goyf I don't really want Force of Will that much. Having one is still nice against a deck that doesn't play Pyroblast and doesn't always board in Flusterstorms.

RUG Delver (5)
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Force of Will
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate

I tried Invasive Surgery for a while and it's cool against Forked Bolt, Rough/Tumble and Ponder in topdeck wars. On the other side I really just want a FoW against the opponent's Dismember and Nimble Mongooses (Oozes are really problem when I don't get the gy in control early with DRS).
Unlike other people I also don't like Probe against other stifle decks. It really does nothing for your game: Sure it tells you wether to play around daze or not for one turn, but you should play around stifle to the best of your abilities the whole time anyways. On the other side the 2 life can be really brutal when you're behind and dig for answers, FoW on the other side can feed on late Dazes/Stifles that might be stuck in your hand).

UR Delver (5)

-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Force of Will
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Abrupt Decay

Decays are nice here because UR Delver doesn't play any wastelands. Stormchaser Mage can be hard to deal with otherwise (though both our blasts take care of it). I like the FoWs even thought the opponent plays Pyroblasts and propably even Flusterstorms. Terminate just seems like a worse decay here. I'd bring it in if I saw them splashing black for Angler of course.



Death & Taxes (10)
-4 Dazes
-3 Stifles
-2 Force of Wills
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+3 Cabal Therapy
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

I go for the full value of Cabal Therapy, Ancient Grudge, Grim Lavamancer, Forked Bolt and Fire Covenant here, grinding out my opponent who gets flooded eventually.
Dazes go very badly with this game plan because you can't really choose when to play them. Forces on the other hand prevent early losses and can counter lategame threats and things that hurt you like a swords on Lavamancer or a RIP when you need your grave. The blue count is lower, but if you have no blue card that often times means your hand is full of removal and creatures anyways.
Together with the RUG match this is certainly the matchup where our mana base for Abrupt Decay gets tested the most. On the other side I really wouldn't want to miss the decay in either matchup.

Shardless BUG (7)
-4 Force of Will
-3 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Divert
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

I just can't find a spot for the second Decay in this matchup tbh. I really like the stile-daze-wasteland plan here and spell pierce and divert go very well with it. Fire Covenant and Terminate are already big removal spells so I don't think I need the decays here, we can lose to more things than just Tarmogoyfs. I also don't like the Ancient Grudge. While it's cool to grudge strixes only having Shardless Agent as your target is really awful. And some lists only play 2 Strixes.

ANT (6)
-3 Lightning Bolt
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Gurmag Angler
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy

1 Lightning Bolt is neat in case the opponent has Xantid swarm or Bob, both cards that are very dependend on our draw to be good or not. It also lets you kill 1 turn quicker sometimes.
Delver is our best clock, DRS interacts with PiF alongside Surgical Extraction, Pyromancer is best with our Therapies which leaves Angler as our worst creatures. But I think we had this discussion already.
Against TES it's the same sideboarding only I board in an additional Hydroblast. They don't have any creatures and it hits Burning Wish besides PiF which is awesome.

Show & Tell (7)
-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Gurmag Angler
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy
The only creature I expect they could have is Grim Lavamancer which already gets answered by Hydroblast and Stifle well enough imo. It's not that usual and I'd much rather have the additional disruption than a Bolt.
Hydroblast is nice against REBs, Sneak Attack, Wraths (except Kozilek's return) and some weird cards like Overmaster and Lavamancer. At worst it pitches to FoW.
We can play around Defense Grid most of the time with our DRS mana, it's really bad for them if we draw Therapy and they have Grid out (also brainstorming in response costs them 3 mana).

Elves (9):
-4 Stifle
-4 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

I board equal to both Chaos Elves and regular elves. Wren Pack Huntmaster and Glimpse of Nature are still scary cards so I want to keep in all the Forces. The one Abrupt Decay is really only there as an additional way to kill stuff, even trading 2 mana for 1 is nice against a synergistic deck.
Stifles are awesome in game 1 and I wouldn't want to miss them because they make their go-to-combo really weak and equal to a Gurmag Angler. Post-sideboard though they propably have Ruric Thar, Elderscale Wurm or Progenitus to board into, stifle doesn't just counter NO the way it does preboard.
Also the opponent might still be playing around Daze and Stifle without us having it anymore which is always nice (but also not too hard to do with tons of mana).

Cloudpost (9)
-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Forked Bolt
-4 Daze
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

Just listing this because it comes up a lot and I want to emphasize again that Surgical is BAD in this matchup. Once you've hit a cloudpost you're fine anyways, even if you extract it they still can cast Titan and, most importantly, Show & Tell.
Stifle is really nice here because you can stifle Titan, Expedition Map, Candelabra etc. so we don't keep them in for the Daze-Wasteland plan. Wasteland is excclusively reserved for Cloudpost. Pyroblast and Invasive Surgery are there for Show & Tell. Ancient Grudge is a catch-all against Platinum Emperion, ill timed Expedition Maps and Top activations, Pithing Needle and Candelabra.
Terminate and Fire Covenant are there because often times you can withstand a fatty coming into play (they board out Emrakul most of the time and have a max of 1 anyways), but you have to kill a Primeval Titan pretty much before it attacks. The Lifeloss from Fire Covenant really doesn't matter, it's just another Terminate here (saved my ass in Frankfurt killing Platinum Emperion).

Merfolk (8)
-4 Stifle
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate

It might seem weird to bring in 1 Therapy when taking out all Probes but it's really just there to take a card when it's revealed with Silvergil Adept, otherwise it always names TNN the turn before it can be cast/vialed in if I have it.
The Abrupt Decays are really awesome here because they hit creatures, but also Jitte and Chalice (which we're not sure how many there are in the opponent's deck).
I tried out the grindy approach with Probes and Therapies before and must say that it sucked hard, I just got tempoed out by this deck. Dazes are nice whenever they don't have cavern because their stuff costs a lot (and I have a lot of answers to Vial). Forces are quite necessary imo because stuff like Echoing Truth, Harbinger or a timely TNN can just swing the tempo in their favor with no chance of a comeback. They also don't have good answers for FoW like Pyroblast (Flusterstorm is pretty bad for them imo)

Lands (7)
-4 Daze
-1 Forked Bolt
-2 Lightning Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Abrupt Decay

Dazes are the worst cards here, even on the play they're pretty much only good on the first turn (sometimes).
I like keeping in Bolts, they answer stuff like Dark Confidant or this new Tireless Tracker. Winning faster is nice, too of course.
I like keepin in Probes for Delirum as well as the information, e.g. how to use the Ancient Grudge, wether to waste and what etc.
Abrupt Decay is nice here because it kills lockpieces and Exploration. The lands player goes for our black first anyways which we need to protect with stifles.

4c-loam (8)
-4 Daze
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Forked Bolt
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant

Dazes can be ok in this matchup, I board them out anyways because I want to use my stifles completely defensively, either to counter Liliana, KotR, Wastelands, Thespian's Stage, P-Fire, Cycling etc.
Spell Pierces are nice often times, GSZ, Toxic Deluge and Liliana are all very expensive spells.
Gitaxian Probes come out because compared to lands Delirium is not necessary, Surgery still counters GSZ and Toxic Deluge and they only play 2 Loams most of the time anyways.
Removal obviously for KotR and other big stuff, Forked Bolt is a luxury cut, instant-speed of lightning bolt seems better when holding up stuff than the potential 1 damage when killing Thalia or Bob.

Infect (7)
-4 Stifle
-2 Gurmag Angler
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Fire Covenant

Stifle is just really bad vs. Infect. You really only have Fetchlands as targets preboard so all of those come out.
Pithing Needle is awesome against Inkmoth Nexus since it's really hard to hit when having to fight pump spells on your opponent's turn. It also hits Spellskite or Pendelhaven occasionally.
Spell Pierce seems bad because we do a lot of tapping out, even with our instant speed removal spells.
Abrupt Decays are fine against everything besides Inkmoth, they're one of the few removal spells we can actually save for our turn which can be quite nice. They're especially good with DRS which can be kept open and just block stuff and as soon as they overcommit (you just make mana before he dies) you blow them out.
Fire Covenant is definitely expensive, but I like the potential for x-for-1s and it's not that bad when it gets countered since life doesn't matter that much in this MU.
I feel 2 Cabal Therapies are enough: You don't want to spend too much time durdling around, but getting an idea of their hand and having a default card to name (Invigorate) seems always nice.
I really like all the FoWs and Dazes. Yes Daze can be weak sometimes when facing Noble Hierarch but hey, it still pitches to FoW :wink:

[Ltj999]

@jrsthethird
You really shouldn't board in Divert against Red Delver decks imo. I only have it against BUG/Jund and Burn. BG decks tend to tap out for Abrupt Decay and play a lot of discard, so Divert is really good there. Burn just plays like 1/2 spells that can be diverted and while they play around daze quite often they certainly don't play around spell pierce. Also gets Exquisite Firecraft.
Against Red Delver decks on the other side everybody is playing around Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce as soon as he has 3 mana by casting the removal spell first and something like cantrips later (generally speaking), at least when the opponent has a mana open.

@Manipulato
I don't think you can play any Delver deck with only 4 removal spells nowadays. I see most RUG lists with 6, personally I think 5 is fine when you have enough postboard. Most squeeze in Dismember in the mainboard, but I have enough sb cards that I think I can keep the Forked Bolt (I still hate dismember in this deck). Check out my list below.
I also agree that Force of Will is just a really good card against Eldrazi, countering their Dismember or their TKS/Endless One/Reality Smasher can give us enough tempo to just win the game. And it's always nice to force Chalice.

I actually have changed my list a bit! Still playing Grixis and still playing Abrupt Decays in the sb, but I went down to 2.
Reason being that more than 1 in hand is often times pretty awkward since your main land is still volcanic, this also let me cut the second Tropical from the sideboard. Krosan Grip was cool and really shines in some matchups, but it's just really clunky and is just a weaker card than Abrupt Decay generally speaking.

The 3 cuts (Decay, Krosan Grip, Tropical) gave me room for some cards I really wanted to play:
- Grim Lavamancer as a way to punish creature decks
- Ancient Grudge since I went down on the artifact destruction department, but still hate Eldrazi and D&T.
- Terminate to not only get rid of Angler, but also Goyfs that have Artifacts in the gy, TKSs and Reality Smashers

I still board in the 2 Decays against Tarmogoyf decks, but skip them completely against decks like e.g. Grixis Delver.
Playtested against Grixis Delver (without Decays) and Stifle BUG (with Decays) and it felt really nice. Having enough answers to Tarmogoyf is really cool, look forward to kill Chalices, RIPs and Counterbalances (which is still the main reason for the decays).

My list now looks as follows:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Divert
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Fire Covenant



Being honest I didn't read your boarding strategies b/c we have pretty different approaches to the deck i.e. stifle/decay vs therapy/no decay. Buttttt I am pretty tempted for my next playgroup outing to test out a 4md stifle with one md winter orb build...

Also, on a more serious note I def think I'm gunna be redoing my sb to squeeze in 2 winter orb and a fire covenant. I find DnT (which I think of as actually one of our more rough match-ups, even more so than miracles) often bring in RiP post board, making my darkblast way way less exciting than its inclusion is intended to be.

[Agrippa91]

Being honest I didn't read your boarding strategies b/c we have pretty different approaches to the deck i.e. stifle/decay vs therapy/no decay. Buttttt I am pretty tempted for my next playgroup outing to test out a 4md stifle with one md winter orb build...

Also, on a more serious note I def think I'm gunna be redoing my sb to squeeze in 2 winter orb and a fire covenant. I find DnT (which I think of as actually one of our more rough match-ups, even more so than miracles) often bring in RiP post board, making my darkblast way way less exciting than its inclusion is intended to be.

Do you by any chance mean Abrupt Decay, not Winter Orb?

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I took Alexander Hayne's list into a league and ended up 3-2.

Manaless: 2-0
Storm: 2-0
Storm: 2-1
12 Post: 0-2
Mirror: 1-2

Going to try to stream at some point today, I started another league and am 1-2. If I do, I will link the vod here.

[Agrippa91]

That sounds nice. I'm surprised by your 0-2 against 12-post. Did you have the feeling that your opponent in general had good hands or do you not feel comfortable in the matchup anyways?

[ironclad8690]

Here is the vod from today:

https://www.twitch.tv/adelorenzi/v/75250356

Shardless: 2-1

Manaless: 2-0

I made some mistakes because I was spacing out, but still a good couple of matches and good enough for 3-2 in the league.

As far as 12 Post: I think he just was lucky. Game 1 I waste the first 2 Cloudposts he plays, but he is able to Engineered Explosives my two Delvers. I get some more threats on board, but then he plays Show and Tell while my shields were down, and Emrakul is lethal against my 13 life total (from some probing much earlier and fetching).

Game 2: I didn't have a counterspell for Pithing Needle, never found a grudge for it either. I probe him and he just has glimmerposts, misty, eye, and glacial chasm, so I couldn't even Cabal Therapy anything. I get a nice army, but he just keeps gaining life from glimmerposts and then eventually plays Chasm. I didn't have a Deathrite Shaman, so I just have to sit there until he drops enough lands to find and play Emrakul in the same turn. I think he naturally drew 3 Glimmerposts + 1 Vesuva, which also copied Glimmerpost, so I just got Timewalked into oblivion.

[dedicateddan]

Thanks for the sideboard guides all!

What do you think of Grixis Delver in the Knight-Ware meta?

Recent tournament:
http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/06_12_2016legacy.html

The deck didn't do particularly well in the last tournament.

Is the meta hostile to it with a bunch of anti-blue decks and few combo matchups?

[ironclad8690]

I think Grixis should be fine there. Some of those matchups are tough, but the beauty of this deck is that it stands a pretty good chance against everything but Lands. D&T might be tough, but with a Grim Lavamancer and Darkblast/other removal in your sideboard you should be fine. The lack of Eldrazi makes me think Strix might be unnecessary. Even though the Chalice/Trinisphere matchups seem bad on paper, they are close to 50/50 in real life, I have had better than 50/50 experiences against these.

[Agrippa91]

@ ironclad8690
I went through the shardless match, here's my opinion on some of the decisions:
game 1:
- I agree that this hand was a keep
- I definitely would've pondered on turn 1: It's not like you don't know what you're looking for since you really need at least 1 creature, no matter what matchup. Also making sure that you hit no land is important imo when you already have so many in hand.
- Putting back that Brainstorm for Delver to flip is wrong imo, you should've shuffled with a fetchland to get all these lands out of your hand. You still have a 50% chance that Delver flips each turn, but having so many lands is just bad for you.
- I would've dazed the DRS on the opponent's t3 for the chance of getting him off blue, but this might be my stifle-centered thinking of always getting rid of DRS.
- On your t3 I would've kept a fetchland instead of the volcanic with the BS, it would've allowed you to get a single card with the ponder in your hand by shuffling away the rest.
- (t3) I also like leading with DRS every time before YP: Not only does it bait removal spells, but if you untap you can also immediately chain cantrips, when you just tap out for YP there's a decent chance he gets you no value at all.
- on t4(?) when you played both your DRS you should've fetched for your Trop instead of playing the Usea in your hand for your 2nd DRS imo. You knew of FoW on top of your deck from your ponder and were far away from casting it. Trop can also be really important to exile Shardless's Artifacts to make your Dismembers and Angler better.
- IF you decide to draw your FoW though I definitely would've kept it open with your DRS though, not drained your opp on your turn.

sb: I can see keeping in more Forces since Shardless just doesn't have an efficient answer to this card but that's just my only-therapy-against-combo-and-stoneforge-thinking.

game 2:
- Agree with the keep though it's mediocre.
- Don't agree with Spell Pierce on his t1 eot brainstorm. If he has lands on top, he draws them anyways, if he doesn't the BS doesn't do him much good. I'd much rather save the Pierce for a Hymn, Liliana, Deluge or some cheap sideboard removal like Disfigure or Golgari Charm. Especially since you can hold open YP and Spell Pierce next turn.
- I really don't get why the opponent only suspended Visions on t2 and didn't play a land. He had one on his 3rd turn, but hasn't seen any new cards from his deck at this point because he brainstormed on the end of t1.
- I disagree with you not dazing the strix when you had a delver out. It's their best card against us. Also not bolting it prevented your delver from hitting, the bolt in the end did less than it would've done by hitting the strix.

game 3:
- I actually don't agree with the keep. The hands in g1 and g2 had brainstorm in it, keeping 4 actual lands seems pretty weak. I propably would keep this hand otp since spell pierce (for hymn) and t1 drs are really strong, but not otd where you can use your scry super effectively (and also draw an extra card anyways). Fortunately you drew Brainstorm.
- I would've played out YP and Ponder on your third turn instead of YP and Delver. I think a YP alone would've provoked a Golgari Charm if he had it, with the Golgari Charm you could've also digged for Dazes and Bolts which were really good in this position because he missed a land.
- I don't agree on keeping the ponder with DRS, Probe and Tropical when your opponent is stuck on lands and has DRS Again Removal and Dazes is what you really want here imo. It's a narrow ship though imo and I understand why you kept it.

All in all I found the match really interesting and would be interested what the other guys here think about it. I'm certainly no legacy master and would like to hear how/why some of you might disagree with my critic.
I'd be really interested

Edit: Watched the Manaless Dredge match because it was actually rather interesting. You played pretty well there!
You should've definitely boarded out the Wastelands though :wink:
I think Pithing Needle for Phantasmogorian and Pyroblast against his blue creatures could've been decent.

[MoonDark]

@ ironclad8690
I went through the shardless match, here's my opinion on some of the decisions:
game 1:
- I agree that this hand was a keep
- I definitely would've pondered on turn 1: It's not like you don't know what you're looking for since you really need at least 1 creature, no matter what matchup. Also making sure that you hit no land is important imo when you already have so many in hand.
- Putting back that Brainstorm for Delver to flip is wrong imo, you should've shuffled with a fetchland to get all these lands out of your hand. You still have a 50% chance that Delver flips each turn, but having so many lands is just bad for you.
- I would've dazed the DRS on the opponent's t3 for the chance of getting him off blue, but this might be my stifle-centered thinking of always getting rid of DRS.
- On your t3 I would've kept a fetchland instead of the volcanic with the BS, it would've allowed you to get a single card with the ponder in your hand by shuffling away the rest.
- (t3) I also like leading with DRS every time before YP: Not only does it bait removal spells, but if you untap you can also immediately chain cantrips, when you just tap out for YP there's a decent chance he gets you no value at all.
- on t4(?) when you played both your DRS you should've fetched for your Trop instead of playing the Usea in your hand for your 2nd DRS imo. You knew of FoW on top of your deck from your ponder and were far away from casting it. Trop can also be really important to exile Shardless's Artifacts to make your Dismembers and Angler better.
- IF you decide to draw your FoW though I definitely would've kept it open with your DRS though, not drained your opp on your turn.

sb: I can see keeping in more Forces since Shardless just doesn't have an efficient answer to this card but that's just my only-therapy-against-combo-and-stoneforge-thinking.

game 2:
- Agree with the keep though it's mediocre.
- Don't agree with Spell Pierce on his t1 eot brainstorm. If he has lands on top, he draws them anyways, if he doesn't the BS doesn't do him much good. I'd much rather save the Pierce for a Hymn, Liliana, Deluge or some cheap sideboard removal like Disfigure or Golgari Charm. Especially since you can hold open YP and Spell Pierce next turn.
- I really don't get why the opponent only suspended Visions on t2 and didn't play a land. He had one on his 3rd turn, but hasn't seen any new cards from his deck at this point because he brainstormed on the end of t1.
- I disagree with you not dazing the strix when you had a delver out. It's their best card against us. Also not bolting it prevented your delver from hitting, the bolt in the end did less than it would've done by hitting the strix.

game 3:
- I actually don't agree with the keep. The hands in g1 and g2 had brainstorm in it, keeping 4 actual lands seems pretty weak. I propably would keep this hand otp since spell pierce (for hymn) and t1 drs are really strong, but not otd where you can use your scry super effectively (and also draw an extra card anyways). Fortunately you drew Brainstorm.
- I would've played out YP and Ponder on your third turn instead of YP and Delver. I think a YP alone would've provoked a Golgari Charm if he had it, with the Golgari Charm you could've also digged for Dazes and Bolts which were really good in this position because he missed a land.
- I don't agree on keeping the ponder with DRS, Probe and Tropical when your opponent is stuck on lands and has DRS Again Removal and Dazes is what you really want here imo. It's a narrow ship though imo and I understand why you kept it.

All in all I found the match really interesting and would be interested what the other guys here think about it. I'm certainly no legacy master and would like to hear how/why some of you might disagree with my critic.
I'd be really interested

Edit: Watched the Manaless Dredge match because it was actually rather interesting. You played pretty well there!
You should've definitely boarded out the Wastelands though :wink:
I think Pithing Needle for Phantasmogorian and Pyroblast against his blue creatures could've been decent.

I agree with most of your observations. I think he's missing a lot of EOT brainstorm though, he should do that more. Also being a bit more aggressive with wastelands to maximize the value of dazes as overall advice.

[Agrippa91]

I agree with most of your observations. I think he's missing a lot of EOT brainstorm though, he should do that more. Also being a bit more aggressive with wastelands to maximize the value of dazes as overall advice.

Can you give an example of a spot where an eot brainstorm would've been good in your opinion? I'm generally only a fan of it when I'm stuck with too many cantrips in hand and find it especially "good" against combo.

[Vandalize]

Sup, I've been playing Canadian Threshold for a while now and decided to try its fellow tier 1 cousin. After some testing with multiple flex slots, I found a list that makes me comfortable:

Lands [18]
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells [29]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard [15]
2 Baleful Strix
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invsasive Surgery
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives

I also tried the Stifle version, it has its pros and cons, the most relevant pro being protecting your lands from opposing Wasteland, followed closely by the mana denial factor. The cons are that it really sucks against some matchups (like Eldrazi) and this deck likes to tap out in turns 1~3 (when Stifle is most effective). Unlike RUG Delver, this deck's threats are more reliant on casting spells rather than holding permission in your hand.

[Agrippa91]

So here's a really stupid idea I have because I saw someone making a joke on "secret Koth tech" because Miracles was playing Blood Moon.

How about Koth of the Hammer against Miracles? Seriously: I know that Sulfuric Vortex gets played from time to time but it dies to Wear/Tear and can just fire backwards if the opponent has so much as a snapcaster alongside his lock. Koth doesn't get countered by their common counterspells, it should get through their counterbalance and also through Blood Moon!
We have 3 Mountains which should be more than enough to kill them with either animated mountains or the emblem and even if the opponent has a snapcaster he is pretty much forced to chump block because Koth just hits so hard.

It might be that I'm just drunk though but it at least seems better than Winter Orb...

Ok, here's another one: Ankh of Mishra! It's also good against Lands! Do you guys think this might be better than Winter Orb? How about a 1/1 split?

[MoonDark]

How do you guys usually SB against storm?

Removing daze g2, adding more therapies?

[Manipulato]

I would board like this:

+ 2 Pyroblast (All cantrips which is the glue of the deck)
+ 2 Invasive Surgery (Tutor, PIF, Discard etc)
+ 1 Cabal Therapy (Obvious)
+ 1 Surgical Extraction (PIF)
+ 1 Engineered Explosives (Possible EtW & LED/Petal if they play around Therapy)

- 3 Lightning Bolt (4 copies are not needed for obvious reasons)
- 2 Gurmag Angler (Too much creatures are bad & not needed, YP is better)
- 1 Murderous Cut (Useless)
- 1 Dismember (Useless)

Take out all your removal/burn exept for 1-2 Bolts for eventual Xantid Swarms. Trim down your creatures down to 12 (I would not take out YP because of Probe/Therapy & possible EtW).

I would never cut Daze vs any combo deck (exept for the Elves MU), sure it's not the best counter but it's a counter and better than anything else.

[Fox]

So here's a really stupid idea I have because I saw someone making a joke on "secret Koth tech" because Miracles was playing Blood Moon.

How about Koth of the Hammer against Miracles? Seriously: I know that Sulfuric Vortex gets played from time to time but it dies to Wear/Tear and can just fire backwards if the opponent has so much as a snapcaster alongside his lock. Koth doesn't get countered by their common counterspells, it should get through their counterbalance and also through Blood Moon!
We have 3 Mountains which should be more than enough to kill them with either animated mountains or the emblem and even if the opponent has a snapcaster he is pretty much forced to chump block because Koth just hits so hard.

It might be that I'm just drunk though but it at least seems better than Winter Orb...

Ok, here's another one: Ankh of Mishra! It's also good against Lands! Do you guys think this might be better than Winter Orb? How about a 1/1 split?
Manabarbs is probably much more effective vs miracles and lands than Koth or Ankh. Winter Orb/Vortex is probably still better than all those (also Vortex stops P-fire).

[MoonDark]

So here's a really stupid idea I have because I saw someone making a joke on "secret Koth tech" because Miracles was playing Blood Moon.

How about Koth of the Hammer against Miracles? Seriously: I know that Sulfuric Vortex gets played from time to time but it dies to Wear/Tear and can just fire backwards if the opponent has so much as a snapcaster alongside his lock. Koth doesn't get countered by their common counterspells, it should get through their counterbalance and also through Blood Moon!
We have 3 Mountains which should be more than enough to kill them with either animated mountains or the emblem and even if the opponent has a snapcaster he is pretty much forced to chump block because Koth just hits so hard.

It might be that I'm just drunk though but it at least seems better than Winter Orb...

Ok, here's another one: Ankh of Mishra! It's also good against Lands! Do you guys think this might be better than Winter Orb? How about a 1/1 split?

I don't really know what the answer to Blood Moon is, but besides countering it we have none. Went 2-3 today in an MTGO League... pretty brutal.

[Agrippa91]

I forgot that Winter Orb is of course also there against lands which is propably our worst matchup, Koth would be abysmal there.
Still against Miracles only I have the feeling Koth would be better :wink:

[Lormador]

If one is in the business of a 4 mana nonblue Planeswalker against Miracles, I think the top picks are Garruk Relentless and Xenagos the Reveler.

[Agrippa91]

If one is in the business of a 4 mana nonblue Planeswalker against Miracles, I think the top picks are Garruk Relentless and Xenagos the Reveler.

Well, the advantage with Koth would be that he reaches his ultimate quickly, the ultimate is relevant, you can cast him through Blood Moon and the opponent can hardly race him with e.g. Snapcaster Mage (he would take 12 damage before he could kill the Koth). Also Terminus on the Mountain would only put it back into the deck :tongue:
These other planeswalkers don't really demand an immediate answer in my eyes.

Still, as I said Winter Orb just seems way better because of Lands.

[jrsthethird]

Tibalt fits better with our curve tho.

[Whit3boy316]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?

[ironclad8690]

Death and Taxes and Burn can be a little tough (D&T moreso in my opinion) but everything else is at least close to 50/50. Daze is great in a lot of those matchups.

D&T weakness can be mitigated by running Dread of Night in the board, and you could even pay Chill for Burn. Infect is already fine, but you could play Forked Bolt in your 75 to make it better, and Baleful Strix is also quite good against them.

u/r fliers sounds janky and I wouldn't worry about it, though Delver sometimes does have a notorious habit of losing to standard decks (more BUG and RUG Delver though).

[Agrippa91]

I would recommend playing both Grim Lavamancer and Darkblast in your sb, they're all great against Infect, D&T and Junk Deathblade (if he's playing Mother of Runes, Thalia, Dark Confidant etc.).

[ironclad8690]

My buddy JPA 5-0'd with an interesting take on Grixis:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/439087#online

He really takes the midrange factor to an extreme with TNN and 6 removal spells.

I think next time on my stream I will try Agrippa's list, and then I will try JPA's list after that. I should be streaming again Tuesday morning, stuff has been hectic for me for the 4th of July weekend.

[QuranJames]

When I saw the new Lili spoiler, I immediately thought that it may have some play in Delver decks, at least in the sideboard:

http://i.imgur.com/oneZLAu.png

Any thoughts? The +1 is like a Darkblast on a Planeswalker stick and the -2 returns a creature in grindy matchups and fuels delve. Could see this being useful in Delver mirror matches, vs. Death & Taxes, etc.

[Whitefaces]

She's not what this deck wants. Maybe in BUG, but not Grixis.

[Agrippa91]

She's not what this deck wants. Maybe in BUG, but not Grixis.

I agree, she doesn't seem to support any of our gameplans (aggro and land destruction/discard). Most important question would also be: In which shell is she better than Liliana of the Veil?

[Richard Arschmann]

Sticking one of these would be a win in the mirror. You can Darkblast opposing Delvers and Pyros and then get your own dudes back. It's probably not powerful enough for Legacy, though.

[Agrippa91]

Sticking one of these would be a win in the mirror. You can Darkblast opposing Delvers and Pyros and then get your own dudes back. It's probably not powerful enough for Legacy, though.

In the mirror the effect might be good, but generally speaking the -2 of Liliana of the veil is just way more powerful against Tarmogoyfs, Delvers, DRS, SFMs etc.
Also BB seems reeeeally sketchy on our manabase. If it wasn't I would definitely play Marsh Casualties in the sideboard!

[MoonDark]

Hey guys, been going 3-2 with the deck a lot. It's hard to pilot and I feel I need to get better.

I'm playing latest noah walker list and I was wondering what do you guys do v/s Storm? (not ANT, but the one with the red Yawgmoth's Will and usually goblin trenches / tendrils )

[Agrippa91]

Can you give us a list of your sideboard? Noah Walker's has changed a bit these days an we don't know which one you're referring to.

About the storm decks:
Both storm decks, TES (The Epic Storm) and ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) do similar things and their titles can be really misleading (starting e.g. with the fact that TES is a way better Ad Nauseam deck than ANT).
TES is the more explosive one with Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in the mainboard and Past in Flames in the sb. It very often wins on turn 1 and 2 and goes for Empty the Warrens faster than its slower counterpart.
ANT is more opted to grind, but is by now means slow. It also can win on turn 1, but it's less likely (I'd guess like 10% of the games). It grinds with mainboard Past in Flames and has Cabal Rituals which give them a lot of mana in the late game.

That said we board against both decks very similar:

Vendilion Clique in the mainboard is of course way better against combo than the True Name Nemesis (which is better against fair decks), this choice depends on your meta though.

Cabal Therapies come in. If you're naming blind you should name Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond. Be careful though if they have Brainstorm mana and you can't cast it: they can just brainstorm in response to you flashing it back and render your information about their hand useless. You should generally sacrifice a creature you have in abundance to get combo pieces (either enabler like PiF, Tutor or Tendrils or Rituals and LEDs). You can wait a turn though if you know they cannot possibly go off through your countermagic next turn. This demands a little bit of experience though.

Flusterstorm and Invasive Surgeries are there to counter their big spells (similar to how you use FoW): Those are Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish and Past in Flames most importantly. Together with other soft counters like Daze and Spell Pierce you can also go for their mana though. Otherwise they can just cast rituals in response to pay for your flusterstorms.

Surgical Extraction is a really good one, it's also the most likely one to be misused though because you can really cast it any time and it's very possible you choose the wrong time. In my experience it's only worth firing off in 3 scenarios:
1. They go for PiF:
Here you can either go for their rituals or for their tutors (infernal and wish) in the gy, whichever they have fewest. You therefore make the PiF combo useless, they only sometimes can get away with using their blue cantrips in the gy to find action. This works especially good in conjunction with Deathrite Shaman.
2. You see card in their hand (with Clique, Probe, Therapy) and they have the same card in their graveyard:
In this case you can "thoughtseize" the card away. That's only a good idea though if this card is important to them and not if it's expandable (e.g. because they already have enough rituals and tutors in which case you should safe it for PiF).
3. They brainstorm in response to your Cabal Therapy:
The most underused function imo. Here they hide cards with Brainstorm on top of their library and make former informations about their hand useless because we don't know which cards they kept. With Cabal Therapy (on really anything honestly, preferrably though a tutor or a ritual) we not only shuffle their deck (thus the cards they hid on top of it), but also get to look at their hand before our Cabal Therapy resolves and can name exactly what we want.

Pyroblast is debatable, I see people bringing in either all of them or none at all. I prefer 1 to trade for cantrips, you don't want more imo because it doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't actually prevent their combo because it nor counters rituals nor tutors.

Pithing Needle is useless because Flashback from PiF isn't an activated ability and Lotus Petal and LED are mana abilities (which Needle doesn't stop).
Null Rod would be a good card to stop LED and Petal, it's not a card we generally play though.

Grafdigger's cage is a card you shouldn't play in your SB because it shuts off your own flashback on Cabal Therapy.


We board out 2 Anglers (too slow, we don't need that many threats because storm hardly plays removal) and as many removal as possible, starting with the non-lightning-bolt ones. You can keep in 1-2 bolts against the occasional Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm, these cards get hardly played though and also aren't particularly good against Grixis though. In that case we just bolt them end of turn and hopefully end the game a turn sooner than they expect.

[MoonDark]

Can you give us a list of your sideboard? Noah Walker's has changed a bit these days an we don't know which one you're referring to.

About the storm decks:
Both storm decks, TES (The Epic Storm) and ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) do similar things and their titles can be really misleading (starting e.g. with the fact that TES is a way better Ad Nauseam deck than ANT).
TES is the more explosive one with Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in the mainboard and Past in Flames in the sb. It very often wins on turn 1 and 2 and goes for Empty the Warrens faster than its slower counterpart.
ANT is more opted to grind, but is by now means slow. It also can win on turn 1, but it's less likely (I'd guess like 10% of the games). It grinds with mainboard Past in Flames and has Cabal Rituals which give them a lot of mana in the late game.

That said we board against both decks very similar:

Vendilion Clique in the mainboard is of course way better against combo than the True Name Nemesis (which is better against fair decks), this choice depends on your meta though.

Cabal Therapies come in. If you're naming blind you should name Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond. Be careful though if they have Brainstorm mana and you can't cast it: they can just brainstorm in response to you flashing it back and render your information about their hand useless. You should generally sacrifice a creature you have in abundance to get combo pieces (either enabler like PiF, Tutor or Tendrils or Rituals and LEDs). You can wait a turn though if you know they cannot possibly go off through your countermagic next turn. This demands a little bit of experience though.

Flusterstorm and Invasive Surgeries are there to counter their big spells (similar to how you use FoW): Those are Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish and Past in Flames most importantly. Together with other soft counters like Daze and Spell Pierce you can also go for their mana though. Otherwise they can just cast rituals in response to pay for your flusterstorms.

Surgical Extraction is a really good one, it's also the most likely one to be misused though because you can really cast it any time and it's very possible you choose the wrong time. In my experience it's only worth firing off in 3 scenarios:
1. They go for PiF:
Here you can either go for their rituals or for their tutors (infernal and wish) in the gy, whichever they have fewest. You therefore make the PiF combo useless, they only sometimes can get away with using their blue cantrips in the gy to find action. This works especially good in conjunction with Deathrite Shaman.
2. You see card in their hand (with Clique, Probe, Therapy) and they have the same card in their graveyard:
In this case you can "thoughtseize" the card away. That's only a good idea though if this card is important to them and not if it's expandable (e.g. because they already have enough rituals and tutors in which case you should safe it for PiF).
3. They brainstorm in response to your Cabal Therapy:
The most underused function imo. Here they hide cards with Brainstorm on top of their library and make former informations about their hand useless because we don't know which cards they kept. With Cabal Therapy (on really anything honestly, preferrably though a tutor or a ritual) we not only shuffle their deck (thus the cards they hid on top of it), but also get to look at their hand before our Cabal Therapy resolves and can name exactly what we want.

Pyroblast is debatable, I see people bringing in either all of them or none at all. I prefer 1 to trade for cantrips, you don't want more imo because it doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't actually prevent their combo because it nor counters rituals nor tutors.

Pithing Needle is useless because Flashback from PiF isn't an activated ability and Lotus Petal and LED are mana abilities (which Needle doesn't stop).
Null Rod would be a good card to stop LED and Petal, it's not a card we generally play though.

Grafdigger's cage is a card you shouldn't play in your SB because it shuts off your own flashback on Cabal Therapy.


We board out 2 Anglers (too slow, we don't need that many threats because storm hardly plays removal) and as many removal as possible, starting with the non-lightning-bolt ones. You can keep in 1-2 bolts against the occasional Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm, these cards get hardly played though and also aren't particularly good against Grixis though. In that case we just bolt them end of turn and hopefully end the game a turn sooner than they expect.

Thanks for such a detailed answer, it's exactly what I needed. Here's a link to my list:

Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Sideboard
2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Painful Truths
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Baleful Strix
2 Cabal Therapy
1 dismember
1 submerge

I removed forked bolt and darkblast in favor of dismember and submerge. I really like DB in the mirror though. Orbs are -in theory- good against miracles and definitely good against shardless BUG. I've resolved a needle on top and an orb to a miracles player to still loose being unable to apply enough pressure. The needle has been good against infect on inkmoth too, they can tutor the poison guy that kills an artifact with Zenith to deal with it though.

I've been thinking about Null Rod and the new Delirium sorcery counter a lot. I would also say in MTGO the decks to beat are Miracles, Storm, Eldrazi, BUG, Reanimator and Grixis Tempo. (Have seen lands only once so far in 4 leagues)

Any suggestions for the SB? Miracles is so hard, a Vortex could help maybe?

[ironclad8690]

Just went 5-0 in a league using this list:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/439087#online

BUG Control: 2-1
Shardless: 2-0
Manaless Dredge: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-1
Omnisneak and Show: 2-1

I really like this list, and I conversed with JPA about it. He has replaced Invasive with Flusterstorm and taken out 1 Winter Orb for a Sulfur Elemental, so I am doing the same. I also cut 1 Ancient Grudge for 1 Pithing Needle.

[MoonDark]

Just went 5-0 in a league using this list:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/439087#online

BUG Control: 2-1
Shardless: 2-0
Manaless Dredge: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-1
Omnisneak and Show: 2-1

I really like this list, and I conversed with JPA about it. He has replaced Invasive with Flusterstorm and taken out 1 Winter Orb for a Sulfur Elemental, so I am doing the same. I also cut 1 Ancient Grudge for 1 Pithing Needle.

Sultur Elemental comes in against D&T? Haven't seen a lot of that online. Against miracles it can do a bit, but not more than Orb I guess.

Where do you bring in the fluster storms?

Will try your list.

[ironclad8690]

Sultur Elemental comes in against D&T? Haven't seen a lot of that online. Against miracles it can do a bit, but not more than Orb I guess.

Where do you bring in the fluster storms?

Will try your list.

It is for Miracles mostly, because we have so few outs to a bunch of tokens, and as a threat to resolve under counterbalance. D&T and Maverick too.

Flusterstorm comes in in the mirror, Miracles, and all combo decks.

[MoonDark]

It is for Miracles mostly, because we have so few outs to a bunch of tokens, and as a threat to resolve under counterbalance. D&T and Maverick too.

Flusterstorm comes in in the mirror, Miracles, and all combo decks.

What do you usually take out for flusterstorm v/s combo/miracles/mirror?

Since one's usually +2 Pyroblast against miracles / Mirror, right?

[ironclad8690]

My plan vs Miracles:

+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Painful Truths +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Cabal Therapy

-4 Daze, -1 Wasteland, -2 Dismember, -2 Lightning Bolt, -1 Gitaxian Probe

My plan vs most combo:

+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Cabal Therapy, sometimes Surgical, Pyroblast, or Pithing Needle depending on the combo deck.
-2 Dismember, -2 Angler, some number of Lightning Bolts (not all though, they help the clock a little).

My plan in mirror match:

+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Forked Bolt, +1 Fire Covenant
-2 Cabal Therapy, -4 Force of Will

FoW is too costly imo.

[MoonDark]

My plan vs Miracles:

+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Painful Truths +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Cabal Therapy

-4 Daze, -1 Wasteland, -2 Dismember, -2 Lightning Bolt, -1 Gitaxian Probe

My plan vs most combo:

+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Cabal Therapy, sometimes Surgical, Pyroblast, or Pithing Needle depending on the combo deck.
-2 Dismember, -2 Angler, some number of Lightning Bolts (not all though, they help the clock a little).

My plan in mirror match:

+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Forked Bolt, +1 Fire Covenant
-2 Cabal Therapy, -4 Force of Will

FoW is too costly imo.

Hey Iron, thanks for your reply. Interesting sideboard plan. For those matches my SB currently looks like this:

Miracles:

-2 Daze
-2 Therapy
-2 Probe
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Painful Truths

Combo:

Storm (TES, ANT)

+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Surgical Extraction
-3 lightning bolt
-1 Dismember

Sneak & Show:

+2 Pyroblast
+2 Cabal Therapy
+1 Pithing Needle
-4 Bolt
-1 Dismember

Delver Mirror:

+2 Pyroblast
+1 Dismember
+1 Painful Truths
+2 Baneful Strix
-4 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Cabal Therapy

I see a couple things:

1. You're using Flusterstorm a lot and maybe it's something I need to incorporate in my SB. What are people thoughts on this card?

2. You take out FoWs in the mirror. Do you think this is the best line? I mean, above the probes? What are people's thoughts on this?

Here's my current list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:

1 Dismember
1 Painful Truths
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Submerge
2 Pyroblast

[Agrippa91]

FoW is one of the few things that stops Gurmag Angler in the Mirror.
Fire Covenant is really bad in the delver mirror in my experience, you just pay a lot of life and there's a high chance they have a daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm to counter it in which case you've pretty much lost the game.

[MoonDark]

FoW is one of the few things that stops Gurmag Angler in the Mirror.
Fire Covenant is really bad in the delver mirror in my experience, you just pay a lot of life and there's a high chance they have a daze/spell pierce/flusterstorm to counter it in which case you've pretty much lost the game.

Yeah, I thought the same thing about FoW. I think taking it out would give the mirror a huge advantage.

[ironclad8690]

Hm, maybe I will try leaving it in next time. How many do you each of you leave in?

[MoonDark]

Hm, maybe I will try leaving it in next time. How many do you each of you leave in?

So I always leave my 4 fow's in. I know that some people bring a couple out in some matches, but in all honesty I don't think I have enough knowledge with the deck to take that line successfully (most of the times I think I would risk myself to make a mistake). I take out 0-2-4 dazes on the draw, it depends on the matchup. I carry orbs against miracles, so dazes keep a bit of value after G1 for example.

[Manipulato]

Hm, maybe I will try leaving it in next time. How many do you each of you leave in?

Leavin in 2 copies of FoW is right in my opinion, the mirror is a tempo game where you have many key situations which decides who wins. Leavin in 2 Otp and maybe 3-4 Otd is nor wrong.

[MoonDark]

Hey guys,

In a meta full of mirror (BUG/Tempo delver) and wasteland in general (mtgo)

Should I be running 3 Underground Sea, 3 Volcanic?

I honestly think dealing 2 dmg consistently with Deathrite is huge, also, if we loose our seas to wastelands we can't cast Angler, which is key against both decks.

Thoughts?

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

In a meta full of mirror (BUG/Tempo delver) and wasteland in general (mtgo)

Should I be running 3 Underground Sea, 3 Volcanic?

I honestly think dealing 2 dmg consistently with Deathrite is huge, also, if we loose our seas to wastelands we can't cast Angler, which is key against both decks.

Thoughts?

Hi,
cutting the 1off Tropical is ok as long as you have no GY decks in you meta like Dredge, Reanimator or burn for example.
In such a meta you could also just play 3-4 stifle to protect your Seas & disrupt your opponents mana more aggressivley. It's also really super strong vs Miracles & Eldrazi especially with 2 Winter Orb in the SB.

[Agrippa91]

Watching SCG Worcester I saw Grixis Delver player multiple times wastelanding their opponent when they had an active DRS out.
Personally I almost never do this and it seemed bad to be frank. Especially when there're not that many lands in the gys to begin with.

[MoonDark]

Watching SCG Worcester I saw Grixis Delver player multiple times wastelanding their opponent when they had an active DRS out.
Personally I almost never do this and it seemed bad to be frank. Especially when there're not that many lands in the gys to begin with.

I agree with you that usually it's not the way to go. But everyone kinda' knows we play two U.Seas so if a shaman is out and you waste one in the mirror, the shaman 2 dmg ability is only going to happen if they have another shaman or they fetch an U.Sea very quickly. If they only play two U.Seas and they fetch the 2nd one immediately, they are being kinda' greedy in my opinion, what if we waste the last one. She shaman could be bolted and then they are almost locked out from resolving Angler, which happens to be very strong in the mirror (at least in my experience).

I do have reanimator in my meta and I agree that in that matchup the Trop is good, but this seems almost like a SB option that we could have (1x Trop in the SB), I know this sounds a bit crazy, but maybe it's not that insane?