[Deck] Grixis Tempo

[Agrippa91]

I think the Tropical is also really important against Burn, racing against creature decks (like D&T) and against Shardless where you have to exile their artifact creatures to shrink their goyfs. Also against Delver decks it's very important to get out of Bolt range.

Wasting someone off black is rather difficult, especially when facing pressure. In the end it just doesn't matter wether you die to Gurmag Angler, YP or Delver. Even if the opponent cuts us off both our Useas we can still land a DRS with Tropical and cast Angler that way. The amount of lands to cast DRS remain as low as ever.
On a sidenote: I tried shaving a Volcanic for a fetchland because I really feel bad every time I draw the second Volcanic, but I quickly put the card back in after having tested against D&T and the mirror.

[MoonDark]

I think the Tropical is also really important against Burn, racing against creature decks (like D&T) and against Shardless where you have to exile their artifact creatures to shrink their goyfs. Also against Delver decks it's very important to get out of Bolt range.

Wasting someone off black is rather difficult, especially when facing pressure. In the end it just doesn't matter wether you die to Gurmag Angler, YP or Delver. Even if the opponent cuts us off both our Useas we can still land a DRS with Tropical and cast Angler that way. The amount of lands to cast DRS remain as low as ever.
On a sidenote: I tried shaving a Volcanic for a fetchland because I really feel bad every time I draw the second Volcanic, but I quickly put the card back in after having tested against D&T and the mirror.

I agree that against burn is rather useful, but in mtgo there's literally zero burn. It's completely extinct in the current meta. When facing pressure in the mirror I kinda' feel it's hard to come back though. I think you want to be that guy, and a great way to apply pressure is not to get wasted for Black so that Deathrite keeps it's range. These are just thoughts of course, haven't really tested this, but I feel it could be a good idea -at least in this meta-

[Agrippa91]

Hm, unfortunately I don't play online, but as far as I understand that it's just a lot of Miracles and Grixis Delver and no Lands and D&T.

Speaking of lands, Ed Dimico is in the finals of SCG Worcester with Grixis Delver! I'm excited because he plays Stifle :D

I really think this might be decided by who's otp. If Ed is I predict him to actually win this match!

Edit: Here's the deck list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105135
He doesn't play Gurmag Angler in the MD which seems weird to me, it's one of the most awesome cards with stifle imo. Also his sideboard is rather ill equipped to fight against lands besides 2 Surgicals and 1 Pithing Needle. I still have hope!

Edit2: Now I don't want to (s)boil the results, but you really should watch the vod, it was a cool match!
https://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/77288081

[jrsthethird]

Grixis wins! 3 Deathrites in Game 3 gets there.

[Agrippa91]

He didn't have any Surgicals or Pithing Needle though, so it's not like he was drawing nuts.
These stifles really won him the games he won though, he'd have won the last one even if his opponent had tapped down all his lands and assembled the combo.

[btm10]

I've tried a few different 4c builds both with and without Stifle, and I get where he's coming from with 0 Angler. The D&T matchup is pretty bad, with the stock list, and Lavamancer is huge in the mirror. Also, Angler can be very awkward with more reactive hands since you aren't always able to just churn stuff into your graveyard to Delve; Ed obviously went for straight Grixis, but I think a 3 Pyromancer/2 Goyf/1 x split is totally reasonable if you want to go the full four color route.

[MoonDark]

He didn't have any Surgicals or Pithing Needle though, so it's not like he was drawing nuts.
These stifles really won him the games he won though, he'd have won the last one even if his opponent had tapped down all his lands and assembled the combo.

Any ideas about why is he running -1 fetch +1 Badlands? (seems he also missed an extra black source as I do :D)

[Tiago]

Hello fellas!

Yesterday I played a legacy tournment (26 players) in Porto Alegre - Brazil, 6 rounds. It was my first time with Grixis Delver (I use to play with RUG delver). I got 8th (3v-1d-2l)

Here my decklist:

Main deck

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard

2 Baleful Strix
1 Pithing Needle
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Dismember
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Winter Orb
___
Matches:
1x1 Bomberman
2x1 BANT Maverick
0x2 Omnishow
0x2 Shardless BUG
2x1 Death and Taxes
2x0 BUG Delver
___

I enjoy the deck, but is really hard to make the sideboard. I would appreciate your help in this situation.

What do you think about my list?

[Draggo]

Any ideas about why is he running -1 fetch +1 Badlands? (seems he also missed an extra black source as I do :D)

Having played 2 Sea/ 2 Volcanic/ 1 Trop/ 1 Badlands/ 4 Waste/ 8 Fetch in for ever, I have to tell that that Badlands in the decks fixes alot of Wasteland problems you can catch from the other side. It also means you can post-board fetch Trop into Badlands in certain match-ups to get decay active from your side and still have acces to all colors.
I don't think you should cut a fetchland for it, rather cut the third Volcanic, but that might be preference.
I also know people here hate the idea of running that Single Badlands in the deck for it not being a blue source. But when someone from a top list does it it's revolutionary

[MoonDark]

Having played 2 Sea/ 2 Volcanic/ 1 Trop/ 1 Badlands/ 4 Waste/ 8 Fetch in for ever, I have to tell that that Badlands in the decks fixes alot of Wasteland problems you can catch from the other side. It also means you can post-board fetch Trop into Badlands in certain match-ups to get decay active from your side and still have acces to all colors.
I don't think you should cut a fetchland for it, rather cut the third Volcanic, but that might be preference.
I also know people here hate the idea of running that Single Badlands in the deck for it not being a blue source. But when someone from a top list does it it's revolutionary

I agree with your last statement, haha. However I'm not sure if cutting a Volcanic there would be the best. In the mirror you actually want more lands, more mana wins the wasteland/stifle war. I think he was right cutting a fetch for the Badlands -if that was what he was going for -

[Agrippa91]

If you'd want to play a badlands I think Volcanic is the correct cut.
4 red sources are too much otherwise imo.

I could also see cutting the tropical for a bayou to get more black since green is rarely needed anyways. This would also give you the luxury of being able to pass with DRS and have both activations open with only 1 land.

When you play stifle though I think you only want to play blue lands. I'm sure though Ed Demico decided on this because of his personal playstyle though.
Personally I always use my Volcanics as my "Throw-Away-Duals". At Worcester e.g. when Noah fetched for his Tropical when his opponent had a Wasteland out I'd have fetched a Volcanic. This way the opponent is forced to go for it and can't just wait until I actually cast a dual that does something besides casting blue spells.

[Tiago]

Which of you use stifle in grixis?

I guess grixis is better without stifle, but I'm not sure. I like the idea to run with 4 gitaxian and 2 cabal.

[Agrippa91]

I use stifle, you can check out my list and various boarding strategies in my signature, I linked a post there.

What do you mean with your last sentence? You definitely can't run stifle AND therapy in the maindeck. Not only would these cards go rather poorly with each other but there's also just not enough space in the deck besides the other staples.

[Tiago]

I use stifle, you can check out my list and various boarding strategies in my signature, I linked a post there.

What do you mean with your last sentence? You definitely can't run stifle AND therapy in the maindeck. Not only would these cards go rather poorly with each other but there's also just not enough space in the deck besides the other staples.

Sorry, I think you didn't understand me. I like to run with 4 gitaxian and 2 cabal, with 0 stifle.

Maybe I'll test some version like yours, with stifle in maindeck and putting therapy in the sideboard.

[ironclad8690]

Played in 3 leagues today.

3-2

4-1 (sooo cloooooose! Stupid painter)

1-3 (I will note that 2 of the losses were Dimicco's list)

I will keep posting my results as I try to qualify for the legacy festival. Still on JPA's list.

[MoonDark]

Played in 3 leagues today.

3-2

4-1 (sooo cloooooose! Stupid painter)

1-3 (I will note that 2 of the losses were Dimicco's list)

I will keep posting my results as I try to qualify for the legacy festival. Still on JPA's list.

Hey man! What's Dimicco's list? I'm playing Noah's - 1 card list haha

[Manipulato]

Hey man! What's Dimicco's list? I'm playing Noah's - 1 card list haha

The 1st place list from the SCG Worcester Open...

[MoonDark]

The 1st place list from the SCG Worcester Open...

Oh right. Ed's. Have you guys tested that list at all? It's crazy how fast those things go in MTGO.

[jrsthethird]

I'm currently playing 4 Probe, 3 Therapy, and 1 Stifle. Did me wonders this weekend:

Game 1 against Cloudpost - Turn 1 Probe-Therapy for a Song of the Dryads, opponent tried to track their Map after a Brainstorm to shuffle during their upkeep, and Stifle stopped him. I knew his cards were the same after another draw step so I was guaranteed to steal his Titan after the flashback.

Game 3 in the mirror - Game 3 I keep a slow 4-land hand: fetch, fetch, Waste, Waste, Angler, Bolt, Ponder. He led on Delver, I Wasted and passed. No flip, land, another Delver. I Waste again and pass. Both Delvers flip but he misses his 3rd land drop. I have removal for both Delvers by this point so I'm at 9 after I stabilize and kill both of them. By this point, he's behind on mana and goes to fetch to get his second land on board and I hit him with the Stifle. He never saw it games 1 or 2 so he was completely not expecting it at all.

I know we usually play it as a 4-of, but as a one-of it just feels so so good when it hits.

[Agrippa91]

Wasteland also hits much more if you only play less than 4, that doesn't mean you should do it :wink:

[Whitefaces]

I'm really surprised that you Wasteland when you're behind on board, does anyone else do this? In that spot I'd play Ponder to bait a Daze so Bolt can resolve or find another removal spell or a threat of my own. If he has a third land you probably just lose.

[Draggo]

Which of you use stifle in grixis?


I run 4 Stifles, but then again my decklist might be a bit unorthodox for the like. Had solid succes with several versions of the deck all running Stifles in the main. Not much with the Therapy main.

[Tiago]

I run 4 Stifles, but then again my decklist might be a bit unorthodox for the like. Had solid succes with several versions of the deck all running Stifles in the main. Not much with the Therapy main.

Can I see your decklist? Would you please post here?

[jrsthethird]

I'm really surprised that you Wasteland when you're behind on board, does anyone else do this? In that spot I'd play Ponder to bait a Daze so Bolt can resolve or find another removal spell or a threat of my own. If he has a third land you probably just lose.

That's fair. I thought about the first turn for some reason and took a chance on the Wasteland. Ponder was probably the correct play, but I was greedy and I guess it worked out. The second time I was in such bad shape that I felt my only shot was to hope he didn't have a third land.

[Draggo]

Can I see your decklist? Would you please post here?

Land: 18
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
1 Bitterblossom


Sideboard 15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Divert
1 Submerge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
2 Breath of Darigaaz

This is the latest version I use at the moment, testing the Bitterblossom in the deck since I cut all Pyromancers and I suspect to see alot more of Miracles now.
I also played 3 or 4 Pyromancer build instead of an Angler, the Blossom and some counters. Also played 4 Sultai Scavangers at some point instead of the 3 Anglers and 1 Blossom you see now. Making it a sort of Grixis Air Force.
It's all solid in my opinion. With alot of BUG in the meta, go for the Scavangers or Anglers with TNN. With more combo you should go for the Pyromancers.
Now I face a ton of D&T so I'm really sure how what will be good there, but I think it might be a change of Clique to TNN side/main that would fix the problem for abig part. Also swapping Breath for Volcanic Spray could help, but Breath is also a house vs Eldrazi.

[Agrippa91]

Why Breath over Marsh Casualties? You play 3 black sources, BB should be doable, especially with DRS and stifle.
You'd have an out to TNN that way which seems big because as of now you rely heavy on Anglers. Also your own TNN dies to the Breath which seems suboptimal.

I love your list though, 3 Angler 1 Clique seem really good against a BUG-heavy meta. I'm not too sure about Bitterblossom in that meta though. I grows goyf by 2 (pretty bad for your anglers) and dies to Decay rather easy. You other threats have the advantage of gaining tempo when decayed. Or is this card just there to beat Miracles? Wouldn't it be better in the sb then?

[Draggo]

I put in the Bitterblossom becouse I was expecting more Miracles and less BUG. The Blossom also helped against D&T, but I still lost 0-2 and 1-2 (messed up a stifle there otherwise I proberly won 2-1) against that last local tournament. It's proberly better dropped in the sideboard and add another counter/flex slot in it's place.
I like to move some cards around and just try them in action.

The Breath is good becouse you can Kick it to clear the board against a Batterskull and hose those Thought-Knots, wich both can be problematic match-ups.
Against the D&T I actually held it back too long when I wanted to cast it for the kicker rather then sweep a single Talia... But then the Talia combined with a Karakas messed up my game plan so long I ended up not able to cast it anymore. It's the problem you can have trying new cards... Timing is important.
I played Casualties for a bit but didn't like the cost/effect effectivenes. Sure Breath will kill my own TNN if it's out, but then again. Why would I want to cast it when I have TNN out? It also hits for 4 to the face when kicked so your burn range is actually bigger.

[WashableWater1]

I'm looking to take Grixis Delver to a largish tournament in a week or so, but I'm not sure which build to bring. I expect to see an above average number of Chalice decks and fair BGx decks, which has leaning towards running a 2 Abrupt Decay version of the deck. Does this make sense for that type of expected meta? This is the Decay list that I've been running with.

2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

1 Vendilion Clique
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Baleful Strix

[ironclad8690]

Whelp, i finally q'ed for the thing. I had 6 4-1s, with 5 being 4-0 starts, so this was much needed. I have still been plying JPAs build (3 YP, 2 TNN, 3 Probe, 2 Therapy, 2 Dismember, 3 U Sea, 3 Wasteland).

Being able to board in the 2 Forked Bolt and Fire Covenant makes so many matchups amazing! I have not had problems with combo despite preboarding for fair decks a bit. I also cut a Grudge (down to 1) for a pithing needle.

I am also 3-0 with it again in my current league. Cant wait to play it in the championship, feels extremely strong.

[Agrippa91]

Whelp, i finally q'ed for the thing. I had 6 4-1s, with 5 being 4-0 starts, so this was much needed. I have still been plying JPAs build (3 YP, 2 TNN, 3 Probe, 2 Therapy, 2 Dismember, 3 U Sea, 3 Wasteland).

Being able to board in the 2 Forked Bolt and Fire Covenant makes so many matchups amazing! I have not had problems with combo despite preboarding for fair decks a bit. I also cut a Grudge (down to 1) for a pithing needle.

I am also 3-0 with it again in my current league. Cant wait to play it in the championship, feels extremely strong.

Congratulation!
What does your sideboard look like exactly?
And yes, Fire Covenant is a super unfair card in some matchups :wink:

[ironclad8690]

Here is the sideboard:

2 Forked Bolt
2 Painful Truths
2 Winter Orb (also tried clique and vexing shusher in this spot, they are all about the same strength)
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

[Manipulato]

Here is the sideboard:

2 Forked Bolt
2 Painful Truths
2 Winter Orb (also tried clique and vexing shusher in this spot, they are all about the same strength)
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

Are 2 Orb 2 Truths not antisynergistic? We want them in the same MU's (exept for lands).
Drawing Truths when your orb is on the battlefield is not that great...I think one way to fight Miracles & Shardless is better, so the value strategie with truths or the tempo strategie with orb. They working not great together.

But I like your idea of cutting the 2 Strixes from the SB in place for 2 Forked Bolt. They help so much vs Elves, DnT and in the mirror.

I also think that Invasive Surgery is criminally underplayed, so I like this 2 off alot.
It's so versatile and the perfect home for Grixis because with probes & therapys it's more likely to activate Delirium.

[MoonDark]

Are 2 Orb 2 Truths not antisynergistic? We want them in the same MU's (exept for lands).
Drawing Truths when your orb is on the battlefield is not that great...I think one way to fight Miracles & Shardless is better, so the value strategie with truths or the tempo strategie with orb. They working not great together.

But I like your idea of cutting the 2 Strixes from the SB in place for 2 Forked Bolt. They help so much vs Elves, DnT and in the mirror.

I also think that Invasive Surgery is criminally underplayed, so I like this 2 off alot.
It's so versatile and the perfect home for Grixis because with probes & therapys it's more likely to activate Delirium.

I've found the Strix super good tbh. Specially against Eldrazi, it's just beautiful in that matchup (the forked bolt is not going to do a lot there). I think this SB might be into something interesting though, I guess it's better suited against the mirror and that could be very powerful in MTGO with so many Delver lists running around (although, I think it might actually be too much?). I'm running Noah's SB and been very happy with it, the Strix, while not as back-breaking as the Forked Bolt, it's pretty darn good in the mirror too (and a lot of Matchups).

ironclad couple of questions:

* how are those 2x True-Name Nemesis running for you? Could you elaborate on how they run? I currently run 1 Main Deck, and it's interesting, been pretty good, but I dunno' if I would like 2x MD.
* what about 2x Forked Bolt, you mention you bring them in a lot. Care to elaborate? (Mirror, Berserk Poison, elves I guess? anything else?)

[Manipulato]

I've found the Strix super good tbh. Specially against Eldrazi, it's just beautiful in that matchup (the forked bolt is not going to do a lot there). I think this SB might be into something interesting though, I guess it's better suited against the mirror and that could be very powerful in MTGO with so many Delver lists running around (although, I think it might actually be too much?). I'm running Noah's SB and been very happy with it, the Strix, while not as back-breaking as the Forked Bolt, it's pretty darn good in the mirror too (and a lot of Matchups).

ironclad couple of questions:

* how are those 2x True-Name Nemesis running for you? Could you elaborate on how they run? I currently run 1 Main Deck, and it's interesting, been pretty good, but I dunno' if I would like 2x MD.
* what about 2x Forked Bolt, you mention you bring them in a lot. Care to elaborate? (Mirror, Berserk Poison, elves I guess? anything else?)

The Strix is better vs Edlrazi for sure and really solid in all Delver mirrors but outside of that Forked Bolt is stronger. Forked Bolt is super strong vs Elves & DnT where Strix does nothing...It´s also really good in Delver mirrors (Shaman, Delver, YP + token).
I´m not saying Strix is bad, it has it´s place in a Eldrazi flooded meta, but I personally like the Bolt more because I face DnT & Elves alot in my locals. Those decks are also quite popular here in Germany.

[ironclad8690]

ironclad couple of questions:

* how are those 2x True-Name Nemesis running for you? Could you elaborate on how they run? I currently run 1 Main Deck, and it's interesting, been pretty good, but I dunno' if I would like 2x MD.
* what about 2x Forked Bolt, you mention you bring them in a lot. Care to elaborate? (Mirror, Berserk Poison, elves I guess? anything else?)

The 2 True-Names were one of the things that first attracted me to the deck when JPA's list was originally posted. While great in many fair matchups, the main reason I like them is because of Miracles. They have a harder time countering them than the other threats with Counterbalance, and they also require the miracles player to find a Terminus or die. This can make the Snap-Swords half of their plan dead, and sometimes this converts into wins.

I bring in forked bolt against pretty much any matchup having anything to do with creatures. I will pretty frequently be able to kill an Eldrazi Mimic with them (2 is the dream, only happened a couple of times), but just having another 1 mana answer to Delver, Deathrite Shaman, Baleful Strix, YP, any elf, etc is very good. You can also sometimes chump block with some number of YP tokens and finish off something big with one, that usually feels pretty good. Thalia decks are extremely soft to Forked Bolt as well, and it is important to have cheap answers under Thalia tax. I leave them out vs Combo and Miracles.

Also, I just finished 4-1 in another league:

Elves: 2-1
Miracles: 1-2
BG Midrange Depths: 2-0
RUG Delver: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-1

[MoonDark]

The Strix is better vs Edlrazi for sure and really solid in all Delver mirrors but outside of that Forked Bolt is stronger. Forked Bolt is super strong vs Elves & DnT where Strix does nothing...It´s also really good in Delver mirrors (Shaman, Delver, YP + token).
I´m not saying Strix is bad, it has it´s place in a Eldrazi flooded meta, but I personally like the Bolt more because I face DnT & Elves alot in my locals. Those decks are also quite popular here in Germany.

I can totally understand that. In a DnT + Elves flooded meta, I would totally run 2x Forked in the SB.


The 2 True-Names were one of the things that first attracted me to the deck when JPA's list was originally posted. While great in many fair matchups, the main reason I like them is because of Miracles. They have a harder time countering them than the other threats with Counterbalance, and they also require the miracles player to find a Terminus or die. This can make the Snap-Swords half of their plan dead, and sometimes this converts into wins.

I bring in forked bolt against pretty much any matchup having anything to do with creatures. I will pretty frequently be able to kill an Eldrazi Mimic with them (2 is the dream, only happened a couple of times), but just having another 1 mana answer to Delver, Deathrite Shaman, Baleful Strix, YP, any elf, etc is very good. You can also sometimes chump block with some number of YP tokens and finish off something big with one, that usually feels pretty good. Thalia decks are extremely soft to Forked Bolt as well, and it is important to have cheap answers under Thalia tax. I leave them out vs Combo and Miracles.

Also, I just finished 4-1 in another league:

Elves: 2-1
Miracles: 1-2
BG Midrange Depths: 2-0
RUG Delver: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-1

Congrats on the finish!

I run 1x Nemesis main, and true, against Miracles it's just very good. They have to terminus, no StP option. I wonder if running 2x MD is too much though, the meta is full of wastelands, so I guess in the miracles matchup you can always cut a wasteland and bring an extra nemesis from the SB?

[FZA]

Do you guys keep or cut Stifle against D&T? Most people I've talked to cut them, but I actually like having them to deal with SFM/Batterskull/Flickerwisp and sometimes just to stifle a wasteland. I generally prefer it over Force of Will in the matchup.

[Agrippa91]

Personally I really hate stifling a Stoneforge-trigger. If they have another equipment in hand I still have to kill it, otherwise I lose, right? Also postboard I'd rather have the actual answers, especially when you're also playing Therapy which is awesome against SFM.
stifling a flickerwisp or wasteland is nice of course, but too situational imo to be reliable, especially with Rishadan Port and Thalia.
I prefer 1-2 FoW because D&T tends to have some trump cards in the long game, it also stops RIP.

My style of playing is also more value-oriented than other people's who go more aggressive. If you have 2-for-1s in form of Ancient Grudge, Cabal Therapy, Grim Lavamancer and better card selection via brainstorm and darkblast that's not necessary though imo.

[jrsthethird]

, I just finished 4-1 in another league:

Elves: 2-1
Miracles: 1-2
BG Midrange Depths: 2-0
RUG Delver: 2-1
Eldrazi: 2-1

Congrats!

Really pissed right now; went 4-1 twice in a row and started another league today to try to qualify. Started off at 2-0 and then won game 1 against BUG Delver. The client was glitchy, not responding to my clicks every once and a while. Then it kicks me off, I try to login a few times, doesn't work. Got back in again, and a couple minutes later I got kicked again and could never get back in. I obviously lost the match and I don't think I'll have another chance to qualify for this goddamn tournament because the fucking server kicked me off.

[ironclad8690]

Dang, that's a huge bummer @jsr.

I had to play 4 leagues per day when I was still trying to q, and I barely made it lol.

Edit: I just heard that they extended the qualifying time until Friday, so you have a few more days.

[jrsthethird]

I complained on twitter afterwards suggesting an extension, but didn't hear anything back. Source?

I finished 3-2 this time; matched up against Big Red in the last round and got hit with T2 Blood Moon with Petal backup games 1 and 2, and then T1 Chalice on 1 game 3 for the loss. I filed for reimbursement so hopefully I can replay the match and play for packs/QP (or at least get my 120 PP back). I don't think I have time to grind another full league out. :/

[Tiago]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21113&iddeck=161469

[Manipulato]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21113&iddeck=161469

Best post ever

[ironclad8690]

I complained on twitter afterwards suggesting an extension, but didn't hear anything back. Source?

I finished 3-2 this time; matched up against Big Red in the last round and got hit with T2 Blood Moon with Petal backup games 1 and 2, and then T1 Chalice on 1 game 3 for the loss. I filed for reimbursement so hopefully I can replay the match and play for packs/QP (or at least get my 120 PP back). I don't think I have time to grind another full league out. :/

My buddy Minniej (usually posts on the Miracles forum) told me so.

Wait, how can you file for reimbursement? It sounds like you just had terrible luck.

[MoonDark]

Best post ever

Lol :D

[jrsthethird]

My buddy Minniej (usually posts on the Miracles forum) told me so.

Wait, how can you file for reimbursement? It sounds like you just had terrible luck.

Other players on Twitter were talking about server connection problems as well. Not to mention, if they did extend the qualifying window, it speaks to a larger problem than just my personal connection. So I think a claim for reimbursement is warranted.

[ironclad8690]

Oh, I see, yes the connection issues definitely warrant a claim.

[jrsthethird]

I got the 120 PP back.

[ironclad8690]

Is anyone else playing in the "legacy festival championship" tomorrow?

I am still pretty high on JPAs list, however I have been losing to clyde the glide drexler and his eldrazi taxes deck, which is like DnT but with displacer and TKS. Matchup doesnt feel good.

[Agrippa91]

Unfortunately I'm not on MtGO yet, but I'm just buying into it (selling my duals) because I don't have much opportunity to play paper legacy.
Is there any official coverage on this event tomorrow? Or is someone here planning to stream?

[MoonDark]

Is anyone else playing in the "legacy festival championship" tomorrow?

I am still pretty high on JPAs list, however I have been losing to clyde the glide drexler and his eldrazi taxes deck, which is like DnT but with displacer and TKS. Matchup doesnt feel good.

I'm playing tomorrow, not on JPAs but Noah's, it's the list I personally play the best and did most of my testing with. I have a small variation in it only (Main Deck TNN and not playing V.Clique)

I think it's going to be a tough meta for Grixis to be honest, the deck just feels to fair... we'll see how it goes.

[MoonDark]

went 1-2 Drop. Very disappointed, felt pretty prepared. 2-0 against mono R burn, 0-2 against RUG Delver (mull to 6 both games against very good hands), 0-2 against depths combo, G1 lost in turn 3, G2 made a very bad mistake, costed me the game. I have videos of some games if people are interested, but my perf was horrible anyway.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, I got paired round 1 against silviawataru, and though I won game 1, I was outclassed game 2 and 3.

I got paired against Ben Friedman in round 2, and I lost g1 handily. His list was very interesting, Delver, TNN, Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage. g2 I got him to 3, bolted him with a daze in hand, he brainstorms, forces it, I daze, he has to crack to 1 life. I think I am at 14 at this point, him at 1, what could go wrong? I'll tell you what. From 1 card in hand, he plays TNN, I play DRS. He plays Jitte, gets counters goes up to 5. I decay jitte, he decays DRS and keeps attacking with TNN. I end up losing after bricking while he topdecks more gas.

0-2 drop. I was thinking about going on, but I was so mad and tilted I had to quit, otherwise it was just going to get worse. I don't think anything is wrong with the deck, you guys know how Delver mirrors are. I feel as though I played well, but I played against two very good opponents and didn't get quite as lucky as I needed to. It seemed as though there were a lot of Delver/Grixis players, so it will be exciting to see the top decks.

[korstructure]

This list is SO SLEEK and looks amazing.

Noah Walker puts up consistent results with Grixis Delver, but let's not forget that Dylan Donegan has done the same, as well. Dylan took this deck in a slightly different direction. Lots of 4-ofs.

Some highlights for discussion. Would love your guys' thoughts:


NO Young Pyromancer. Instead, this deck uses 4x Gurmag Angler.
NO Cabal Therapy or Stifle. Instead, this deck uses 4x Spell Pierce.
NO Vendilion Clique or True-Name Nemesis (makes room for the fourth Spell Pierce).
2x Painful Truths in the SB.


Is this a worthy direction with which to experiment? Thoughts on no CB/Stifle? Does Dylan ever post here? Would love his thoughts and his tweaks for the future.

Dylan Donegan - 15th place at StarCityGames.com Classic on 7/24/2016

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler

Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Lands (18)

2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Painful Truths
2 Thoughtseize

[Draggo]

Tried a list very similiar to this one for a bit, didn't like that Thought Scour didn't do anything exept cantripping. It speeds up the Angler, but I rather have a counter or Stifle or a peek at the opponent with Probe instead. The Angler will follow soon after anyway. I play 3 Anglers myself and have close to no problems dropping one quick and a second one when I grab/search for it.

[Agrippa91]

Spell Pierce is nice, but not insane without Stifle.
Gurmag on the other side is really nice against fair decks, but it we give up the therapy combo vs. combo, playing no discard in the sideboard.
Gurmag also just dies to Swords to Plowshares, so it's propably a worse threat than YP in the miracles matchup.

So it's a better list vs. Bolt and Decay decks, but less awesome against combo and Miracles.

https://www.twitch.tv/brettwjayne

Brett over on twitch took this list to the Legacy Festival yesterday so if you like you can watch him playing the list for 6 hours there.

[Manipulato]

Grixis Delver won it all & 4c Delver in 2nd place, nice.
I really like the Jitte trend currently, it's just bonkers in all fair MU'S (Besides Miracles).

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-champs-2016-07-25

Does anybody know who those 2 players are?

[Agrippa91]

@Manipulato: Have you tried it out? I guess the perfect scenario is with YP tokens, but in general I'd be scared to be sitting on a sole Jitte.

I mean, against "fair" decks they bring in even more removal postboard (=more chance to draw a dead Jitte) and against something like Elves I'd figure Grim Lavamancer to be better tbh.

[ironclad8690]

Both of them are regulat mtgo grinders, and they are both really good. Silvia has been playing strange lists forever, usually hedging on the more midrangey side. I lost to them round 1.

Grats to them! I wonder how the match against hill giant went, he is my friend so i will ask him.

[Manipulato]

@Manipulato: Have you tried it out? I guess the perfect scenario is with YP tokens, but in general I'd be scared to be sitting on a sole Jitte.

I mean, against "fair" decks they bring in even more removal postboard (=more chance to draw a dead Jitte) and against something like Elves I'd figure Grim Lavamancer to be better tbh.

Currently not but I play my locals this Saturday and am thinking about 1-2 in the SB. 14 creatures MD especially with the 4 YP + 2 strix from the side is enough to support Jitte. Even a connected YP token or shaman is enough to take over the game. If you can connect the Jitte early it´s straigt better than lavamancer because it kills 2 creatures a turn and not just one.

But I agree it´s mostly because of YP, without him I think I would not consider jitte because of the fear of running out of creatures to support.

[korstructure]

Another Thought Scour deck performs well.

This is extremely close to the Dylan Donegan list I posted a week ago - Ben trimmed to fit 2x Snapcaster Mage. Again, no Young Pyromancer, Cabal Therapy, or Stifle.

The initial responses to the Donegan list mention that Thought Scour is not preferred over Stifle/Probe and that the additional Spell Pierces are less effective without Stifles. Perhaps those losses are acceptable for the consistency and velocity afforded by Thought Scour.

Even if the above inefficiencies are true - is prioritizing a fast Angler the superior direction?

Thoughts?

Would love Ben's opinions on how this deck ran, in which metas it's most superior, and what changes he would make to this list in the future!

Ben Friedman - 1st Place
SCG Open - Baltimore
7/31/16

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Scour
4 Ponder

Lands (18)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Forked Bolt
2 Painful Truths
2 Thoughtseize

[locozildjiangodx]

Greetings all,

I'm new to Grixis Delver and am really excited to have just completed it in paper this past weekend at SCG Baltimore. A little about myself (since I am sure you are all on the edge of your seat), I'm in the Northern VA/DC/Metro area and I've only been playing for two years. In those two years I have lucked into family members sending me their kid's old boxes of cards and they contained gold (Duals, Candelabra, etc). This is how I got into Legacy the first time. After only playing a year I won an IQ (not a big accomplishment now, but at the time was huge), and the following week placed 13th at SCG Baltimore last year. So I queued for the Invi. Used the family treasures to get into Omnitell. Didn't like the deck and it was banned 2 months later. Used Omnitell to get into Twin in Modern. This I loved. I LOVED that deck. Of course, as we know, month later banned. So now I am back in Legacy and LOVE Grixis Delver. I hope I don't bring the ban hammer to it.

Anyways, I read all 41 pages of this thread and learned a lot, will definitely have to re-read a lot of it and jam a ton of games. I am fortunate enough to play with very, very talented people well beyond my skill level, but that's how I get better so I welcome it. Look forward to being a part of this sweet deck in it's many variations. I haven't settled on which I prefer yet because I haven't played enough with it, but I think this is the deck for me.

[Hrothgar]

Hello everyone,
RUG player here, novice on Grixis with the Noah's mainlist.

My 15 sideboard cards, up until now, are:

2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Painful Truths
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Darkblast

But, after 3 weeks with this 75, I feel that 1 x Engineered Explosives is a must in this meta.
EE is great VS Chalice, Elves, Death and Taxes and some other stuff.

Now i search for the right slot to substitute for EE and I suppose the right card is 1x Painful Truths or 1x Winter Orb because i sidein vs Miracle and other control decks: 2/1x Winter Orb and 2/1x Painful Truths - Painful is mana intensive (CC3) and Winter Orb interact with lands.

In your opinion what's the right slot to modify?
Thank you so much!

[Zulabnar]

Grixis Delver won it all & 4c Delver in 2nd place, nice.
I really like the Jitte trend currently, it's just bonkers in all fair MU'S (Besides Miracles).

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-champs-2016-07-25

Does anybody know who those 2 players are?

SILVIAWATARU (2ND PLACE)
LEGACY FESTIVAL CHAMP #9923951 ON 07/24/2016

DECKLIST STATS SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:
Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (6)
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder
Instant (21)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Land (19)
1 Badlands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge 1 Baleful Strix 1 Dismember 1 Flusterstorm 1 Go for the Throat 1 Golgari Charm 1 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Pithing Needle 1 Pyroblast 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Thoughtseize 1 Umezawa's Jitte 1 Vendilion Clique

How can this list beat a combo deck like ANT?

0 response even in side, oh wait, a flusterstorm, is combo so poor played around?

[Manipulato]

SILVIAWATARU (2ND PLACE)
LEGACY FESTIVAL CHAMP #9923951 ON 07/24/2016

DECKLIST STATS SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:
Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (6)
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder
Instant (21)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Land (19)
1 Badlands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge 1 Baleful Strix 1 Dismember 1 Flusterstorm 1 Go for the Throat 1 Golgari Charm 1 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Pithing Needle 1 Pyroblast 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Thoughtseize 1 Umezawa's Jitte 1 Vendilion Clique

How can this list beat a combo deck like ANT?

0 response even in side, oh wait, a flusterstorm, is combo so poor played around?

I dont know what you want?
The list has MD 4 FoW 4 Daze 2 Pierce & after boarding 2 TS 2 Pyroblast 1 Flusterstorm! There are nearly no fair decks around who play more disruption...
It's absolutley fine...
This deck deck also belongs in the 4c bUrg thread not Grixis!

[Agrippa91]

The 2 Thoughtseize and the Vendilion Clique definitely come in against combo. Personally I'm not a big fan of the second REB-effect against storm, it's just a dead card sometimes and can't be pitched to FoW.

[crush]

SILVIAWATARU (2ND PLACE)
LEGACY FESTIVAL CHAMP #9923951 ON 07/24/2016

DECKLIST STATS SAMPLE HAND
SORT BY:
Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (6)
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder
Instant (21)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Land (19)
1 Badlands
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge 1 Baleful Strix 1 Dismember 1 Flusterstorm 1 Go for the Throat 1 Golgari Charm 1 Maelstrom Pulse 2 Pithing Needle 1 Pyroblast 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Thoughtseize 1 Umezawa's Jitte 1 Vendilion Clique

How can this list beat a combo deck like ANT?

0 response even in side, oh wait, a flusterstorm, is combo so poor played around?

The deck is reasonably equiped for Storm in the M.D., although this build is very midrange-y.

I would board like this..
Out:
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Badlands / Lightning Bolt


In:
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Thoughtseize

Seeing that you end up with 4 bolts post SB, you actually could use 1/2 more cards in the SB for the matchup. :-)

[Agrippa91]

I thought about it and you propably want to board out
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truths
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

And board in 1 Flusterstorm 1 Golgari Charm (goblins, xantid, carpet), 1 Pyroblast, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Thoughtseize and 1 Vendilion Clique.

Still not really the deck I would want to fight with against combo though, this deck looks a bit too clumsy for my taste.

[Hrothgar]

Maybe this is sideboard plan:

1 Tropical Island / 1 Gurmag Angler / 1 Tarmo
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truths
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique


Anyway this deck is not a Grixis but a 4c Delver (burg).

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Small tournament last night with the standard list (1 Clique, 3 YP, 2 Angler, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Therapy) and this sideboard:

2 Baleful Strix
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus

New store so I'm still trying to get a sense of the meta, but they allow proxies so I expect to see a lot more variety than I might otherwise.

Results:

0-2 against Infect
Game 1, he fetched a Tropical into Hierarch turn 1, and my hand had Deathrites & Pyromancers, so I was already on the back foot. I chose to Waste his Trop instead of his T2 Inkmoth, which stranded lethal Invigorates in his hand and bought me a lot more time to draw removal, but I didn't draw into anything in time. Game 2, I was facing down two Blighted Agents, and found my Explosives with a Ponder. I had a choice between drawing and tapping out for the Explosives, or shuffling it away and digging for more spot removal. I chose to draw the Explosives (and he killed me the next turn) but in retrospect I think that was the right play, as I'd have needed two spot removals to avoid lethal anyways.
In: Engineered Explosives, 2 Pyroblasts, Pithing Needle, Lavamancer, 2 Baleful Strix (on the play)
Out: 2 Gurmag Angler, 2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Young Pyromancer, 2 Cabal Therapy (on the play)

2-0 against Enchantress
Game 1 he had a really slow do-nothing hand, Game 2 he oddly chose to not maintain his Solitary Confinement, presumably hoping to draw into more gas, and he didn't.
In: Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, 2 Cabal Therapy, Painful Truths
Out: 1 Gurmag Angler, 1 Dismember, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Forked Bolt

2-1 against the mirror
Relic was my MVP all-star in this match; not only did it keep him off his Anglers, it also shut down his Deathrite activations on cards in my graveyard. Game 1 he burned me to death after Wasting my lands away, Game 2 I kept him off mana for like 6 turns while Delvering him to death. Game 3 went to extra turns and I was able to shut off his Deathrites with a Relic and flood him with like 18 Pyromancer tokens.
In: 2 Baleful Strix, 1 Grim Lavamancer, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Relic of Progenitus, can't remember what the last addition was
Out (on the play): 2 Cabal Therapy, 4 Force of Will, 2 Daze
Out (on the draw): 2 Cabal Therapy, 4 Daze, 2 Force of Will

Thoughts:

- Relic is awesome
- I'd love to find room for more generic spot removal, maybe 1-2 Abrupt Decays and 1 Terminate/Dreadbore/Go for the Throat/Fire Covenant in the board. But I'm not sure what I'd cut for them. Maybe the Painful Truths, 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Surgical Extraction?

[Hrothgar]

Why waste on tropical in the Infect matchup if he have played Hierarch?
Turn 1 Deathrite imho is the right play.
Right to draw EE vs 2x Blighted Agents imho.

Enchantress ok.
Mirror ok.

Imho 4 slots vs greave are too many.
3x slot are right (maybe 2 in this meta), you have 4 deathrite maindeck for this.

If you want to find a slot in side, cut 1 of 4 greave hate cards.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Why waste on tropical in the Infect matchup if he have played Hierarch?
Turn 1 Deathrite imho is the right play.
Right to draw EE vs 2x Blighted Agents imho.

Enchantress ok.
Mirror ok.

Imho 4 slots vs greave are too many.
3x slot are right (maybe 2 in this meta), you have 4 deathrite maindeck for this.

If you want to find a slot in side, cut 1 of 4 greave hate cards.

Sorry, it wasn't a T1 Waste, I think the match went like this (I'm on the draw):

T1 Opp: Windswept Heath, fetch a Tropical Island, Noble Hierarch
T1 Me: Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman
T2 Opp: Inkmoth Nexus, cast Blighted Agent

T2 Me: If I Waste the Inkmoth, he can kill me next turn with several combinations of pumps. If I waste the Tropical, he can't cast Invigorate at all and can't kick Vines, so at best he can do 2 poison a turn until he draws a single-green pump spell or another Forest. That buys me a turn or three to draw into removal or dig spells.

[nGoldenX]

Right now I'm playing:

4 delver
4 deathrite shaman
4 young pyro
2 angler

1 stifle
2 spell pierce
3 force of will
4 daze
2 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 bolt
4 gitaxian probe

4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 flooded strand
4 wasteland
1 volcanic
1 underground sea
1 trop
1 badlands
1 island

Is it worth it to upgrade the manabase to the usual one? How much of an impact does it really make?

[Darkness]

Right now I'm playing:

4 delver
4 deathrite shaman
4 young pyro
2 angler

1 stifle
2 spell pierce
3 force of will
4 daze
2 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 bolt
4 gitaxian probe

4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 flooded strand
4 wasteland
1 volcanic
1 underground sea
1 trop
1 badlands
1 island

Is it worth it to upgrade the manabase to the usual one? How much of an impact does it really make?

Playing legacy and investing into proper dual lands is a big commitment due to their price. The difference however is like using dial up internet vs modern day fiber optics. This deck is extremely color intense and will require you to use many different colors of mana within the first three turns. Since this is a tempo deck those first few turns will set you up for success or failure. We do not have the sear card power other decks have to turn the game around mid to late so being able to cast the spells with their required mana costs is crucial. The extra fetches will help you negate some of this problem but your other issue will be vs other wasteland decks. The Trop in traditional lists is almost the 1 of Island in your list. Since green mana rarely matters anytime I draw the trop it feels terrible. I imagine having to fetch for it will equally feel terrible. Being able to continuously cast spells and use abilities faster than your opponents is what creates a Tempo deck. I'm not saying to invest into the other lands if you financial cannot, but it is not up for debate on if there is or is not a difference.

[Hrothgar]

4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 flooded strand
4 wasteland
1 volcanic
1 underground sea
1 trop
1 badlands
1 island



Maybe The worst mana base i've ever seen for this deck.
You require The right mana in the first 2/3 turns and island for Daze.
If your opponent Waste only one of this Lands, is very bad.
The sideboard require some Red and Black mana and with this setup you're not sure to have the right Lands into play imho.

[jrsthethird]

You're honestly better off running 3 Steam Vents, 2 Watery Grave, and 1 Breeding Pool than that. Run the shocks until you can afford to upgrade.

[Agrippa91]

Most of you propably already know, for those who don't:
Noah Walker started streaming for cardhoarder, you can check out his first videos here:
https://www.cardhoarder.com/content/accumulated-knowledge-grixis-delver-vs-death-taxes-60

[Hrothgar]

https://www.cardhoarder.com/content/accumulated-knowledge-grixis-delver-vs-death-taxes-60

Thank you Agrippa for this link!
A very good lesson by Noah obv.
I save the link and follow this Noah's work!

[btm10]

So I decided to start playing Delvers again last week. I started from Noah Walker's list but quickly found that while Peezy is great against Miracles I was having to hold him back until I got to 3 mana to make sure I was getting at least a token and a removal spell out of him more than I'd like. I was much more impressed with the Donegan/Friedman-style lists with Thought Scour, Snapcaster Mage, and more Anglers. That style seems to play much better with the counter package (I went with 3 Pierce/1 Snare + 1 Forked Bolt instead of 4 Pierce and the fourth Thought Scour) and it felt even better against Miracles, especially with 2-3 Winter Orbs in the 75, and Angler is the ideal threat against Shardless BUG since you can keep their Goyfs at 4/5 between Delve and your Deathrites and it doesn't die to Decay, and is much stronger against Eldrazi than a collection of Elementals.

These are obviously preliminary thoughts, but they seem to be at odds with the approach most others are taking and I thought I'd share.

[Richard Arschmann]

D&T will be very popular after CN2. How do we adjust the board to compensate for this? More Dread of Night?

[Misersoneof]

Hello Everyone!

I am playing in a win-a-dual this weekend and I was thinking about playing Grixis. I have noticed that a lot of lists no longer play stifle, but I think that since it hasn't been around much, it might be time to catch people by surprise. What do you guys think of this plan? I currently have the Noah Walker list sleeved up. What do you guys think it worth cutting for the stifles? I haven't used stifle in a while so I may be rusty. Does anyone have any advice about using it?

Thanks!

[Agrippa91]

Here's my current version of the deck (with stifle), sideboard updated:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Fire Covenant

There're some important differences between the stifle version and the nonstifle version of Grixis. Most importantly you play much more like a tempo deck, meaning to the board. You really only want to attack their hand with Therapies from the sideboard if they're playing combo (I don't even bring in Therapies against Miracles anymore).
Abrupt Decays can get played not only against Miracles, but also against Wasteland decks since your stifles protect your lands. It's really good against other "fair", especially Tarmogoyfs and spicy sideboard tech like ensnaring bridge, chalice, Rest in Peace or a random jitte.
I know that many Grixis players play Baleful Strix these days, that's really not what you want to do when you play stifle though imo. The reason is that (besides costing 2 at sorcery speed) the Strix doesn't pressure the opponent enough when you're ahead on board, meaning he can catch up really well. I also don't like how it grows Tarmogoyfs, gets countered by Red Blast and gives us more guys that die to -1/-1 effects like Golgari Charm or even Forked Bolt.
Painful Truths is similar in that it costs 3, so you can't hold up counters when you play it. It also doesn't affect the board and it's not like you're drawing pure gas like a deck like shardless bug, but mostly reactive cards.
Instead of Strix and Truths I prefer Terminate and Fire Covenant which are also really good against Eldrazi. Fire Covenant I only bring in against decks that don't play counterspells because you pretty much lose if it gets countered (shardless being the exception because they board their FoW out very often and you can make them play their FoW into Daze rather often when you play your Fire Covenant because of the instant speed).

Personally I like the stifle version of the deck way more because it makes Dazes and Wastelands better as well as being better against bad matchups like 4c-loam, lands and Miracles.

To the sideboard: I cut Winter Orb because I feel like Pithing Needle is just better against Miracles, it also has uses against D&T and Lands which are rather bad matchups (hence I went up to 2).
Most people play 2 Pyroblasts, but I cut down to 1 because I have Abrupt Decays against Counterbalance and Flusterstorm/Invasive Surgery against Show&Tell.
Deathrite Shaman is already a Public Enemy number one when you're playing this deck because he makes stifle and wasteland look really bad. I have Grim Lavamancer in the sb over Darkblast for that reason.
The card advantage cards in my sideboard (Grim Lavamancer, Ancient Grudge, Fire Covenant) are there because they still let me play the tempo plan. It's not wrong to play something like Strix's and Painful Truths, it's just way better in the midrange-approach without stifles imo.

One last advice:
The cards you cut in fair matchups are mostly Force of Wills and Gitaxian Probes. When in doubt leave in 1-2 Force of Wills, sometimes you have to counter something, it also lets you use redundant Dazes and Stifles later in the game.
In unfair matchups you cut the Anglers first. Delver is faster, DRS is more disruptive (and lets you keep open mana while draining them) and YP has synergy with Therapy. Also Bolts come out fairly often in unfair matchups.
Matchups where I board out stifles are D&T (I leave in 1), Eldrazi, Infect, Merfolk, Burn (I leave in 2 for fetchlands and Rift Bolt, it still pitches to FoW), Stompy and Elves (they don't rely on their fetchlands, stifling craterhoof is awesome game 1, but they often bring in something like progenitus game 2).

[Misersoneof]

Here's my current version of the deck (with stifle), sideboard updated:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Fire Covenant

There're some important differences between the stifle version and the nonstifle version of Grixis. Most importantly you play much more like a tempo deck, meaning to the board. You really only want to attack their hand with Therapies from the sideboard if they're playing combo (I don't even bring in Therapies against Miracles anymore).
Abrupt Decays can get played not only against Miracles, but also against Wasteland decks since your stifles protect your lands. It's really good against other "fair", especially Tarmogoyfs and spicy sideboard tech like ensnaring bridge, chalice, Rest in Peace or a random jitte.
I know that many Grixis players play Baleful Strix these days, that's really not what you want to do when you play stifle though imo. The reason is that (besides costing 2 at sorcery speed) the Strix doesn't pressure the opponent enough when you're ahead on board, meaning he can catch up really well. I also don't like how it grows Tarmogoyfs, gets countered by Red Blast and gives us more guys that die to -1/-1 effects like Golgari Charm or even Forked Bolt.
Painful Truths is similar in that it costs 3, so you can't hold up counters when you play it. It also doesn't affect the board and it's not like you're drawing pure gas like a deck like shardless bug, but mostly reactive cards.
Instead of Strix and Truths I prefer Terminate and Fire Covenant which are also really good against Eldrazi. Fire Covenant I only bring in against decks that don't play counterspells because you pretty much lose if it gets countered (shardless being the exception because they board their FoW out very often and you can make them play their FoW into Daze rather often when you play your Fire Covenant because of the instant speed).

Personally I like the stifle version of the deck way more because it makes Dazes and Wastelands better as well as being better against bad matchups like 4c-loam, lands and Miracles.

To the sideboard: I cut Winter Orb because I feel like Pithing Needle is just better against Miracles, it also has uses against D&T and Lands which are rather bad matchups (hence I went up to 2).
Most people play 2 Pyroblasts, but I cut down to 1 because I have Abrupt Decays against Counterbalance and Flusterstorm/Invasive Surgery against Show&Tell.
Deathrite Shaman is already a Public Enemy number one when you're playing this deck because he makes stifle and wasteland look really bad. I have Grim Lavamancer in the sb over Darkblast for that reason.
The card advantage cards in my sideboard (Grim Lavamancer, Ancient Grudge, Fire Covenant) are there because they still let me play the tempo plan. It's not wrong to play something like Strix's and Painful Truths, it's just way better in the midrange-approach without stifles imo.

One last advice:
The cards you cut in fair matchups are mostly Force of Wills and Gitaxian Probes. When in doubt leave in 1-2 Force of Wills, sometimes you have to counter something, it also lets you use redundant Dazes and Stifles later in the game.
In unfair matchups you cut the Anglers first. Delver is faster, DRS is more disruptive (and lets you keep open mana while draining them) and YP has synergy with Therapy. Also Bolts come out fairly often in unfair matchups.
Matchups where I board out stifles are D&T (I leave in 1), Eldrazi, Infect, Merfolk, Burn (I leave in 2 for fetchlands and Rift Bolt, it still pitches to FoW), Stompy and Elves (they don't rely on their fetchlands, stifling craterhoof is awesome game 1, but they often bring in something like progenitus game 2).

Wow, that's some thorough analysis. Thank you!

It seems that when switching from the Walker List, you cut 2 Therapy, 1 Clique and 1 Dismember and 1 Gitaxian Probe and brought in 4 Stifle and 1 Forked Bolt.

Do you feel that going down by 1 threat and 1 cantrip gives you ability to find a threat quickly? I realize that Clique is hardly something that you need on turn 1 and I can't say that I've ever successfully cast one against anyone who wasn't on Storm but there are times when I am desperate to find any threat to keep up the pressure.

I also can't say I've ever been a fan of forked bolt. Being a 1 of, it always seems to be in my hand when I don't need it or never around when I do. The possibility for 2 for 1-ing aside, do you think it's better than dismember as an almost always playable source of removal?

All that being said, I like the idea of using the stifles to protect your mana base and keeping the opponent off of theirs. Mana bases seem to be pretty greedy these days which is why I want to play stifle.

I find your idea of using abrupt decay versus miracles interesting with only 1 Tropical island too.

I will goldfish and test with this list a little bit today.

Thanks again.

[Agrippa91]

Forked Bolt:
Could be a Dismember if you play online. But in paper I run across a lot more D&T and Elves and a lot less Eldrazi so this card is sweet. It also lets you kill a t1 drs and you're not behind if they daze you back. If you expect a lot of Eldrazi in the metagame Dismember might be fine, but I prefer this spell as I can also just use it to go to the face. As I said it's just super important to get DRS off the table in a lot of cases when playing with Stifle.

Only 3 Gitaxian Probes:
I played with 4 Probes and was rather unhappy with starting hands that had multiple probes because I didn't know what card I was "actually" holding. Imagine a hand with 3 lands and 4 spells, one of them gitaxian probe. If the probe is another land it's awful, if it's another spell it's at least ok.
Also when you're under pressure and you draw a probe you almost always have to pay 2 life because you don't know which color of your lands you'll need. Paying the life to draw a random card from your deck can be rather bad.
The random card can also be rather bad if you need specific cards. When you're playing with stifle you're playing a lot more reactive than the classic Grixis lists (not saying it's more or less skill intensive). Drawing a random card can be bad a lot of times when you're trying to keep your opponent at bay while finishing him off.
I find that people overvalue Probe a bit. You should try to have reactive cards in your hand that shut down his game plan including his topdeck, not just his hand. The information of Probe can be rather useless 1-2 turns earlier, especially if your opponent cantripped. This card is a lot better in combo when you go off, but it's nice here with the therapies in the sb so it's worth it (I don't like it in RUG e.g. though except for maybe as a 1-of).
3 is the number I'm comfortable with. It gives me info about my opponent's deck often enough, doesn't accumulate in my hand too often and with a 3-3-3 YP-probe-therapy split I'm as likely to hit one of the other 2 components when I have a therapy as when I'm playing a 4-4-4 split.

Only 13 creatures:
I specifically went down to 3 YP because at times he is just really clunky. I like playing him as a "finisher"-like creature when my opponent has already wasted a lot of removal on my other creatures and I have a least 3 mana available (not necessarily for cantripping immediately, but also for holding up stifle if that line is strong at that moment because my opponent e.g. has an uncracked land or lacks a color).
When you have 4 YP it often felt like having a Dark Confidant: Play it on turn 2 to see if it survives and you get value off it next turn. Only when he gets killed by a cmc1 removal spell you're behind on tempo.
With UWR Stoneblade no longer in the meta I honestly don't feel like there's a deck that has so many removal spells that I run out of creatures any more. The 4th YP is definitely the worst 14th creature imo. I cut it because I wanted to play 4 stifle, 1 forked bolt (for DRS and Mom) and 1 Spell Pierce (they almost never play around it).

2 Pithing Needles in the sb:
This would propably be something else if I was playing online, with so many D&T and Lands in paper though this card is just really strong (especially since those decks hardly bring in artifact removal).

2 Abrupt Decay:
Call me crazy but I actually like these against almost every fair deck, as mentioned above there's a lot of targets people bring in because they don't think Grixis can deal with it. I begin to like the 2-2 split of decay-needle though against miracles. This way the cards don't get stuck in your hand, but you still have enough food answers for their lock.
The decays are like 0 problem against Miracles because they don't play Wasteland, but you'll have to get used to concentrate on what to fetch when playing against other fair decks. The rule of thumb is to keep the Tropical in your hand/deck until you actually cast the decay. It works out for me so far, even against Lands (expedition, vortex, chalice, crucible) and D&T (RIP, artifacts, creatures).

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Great analysis! Once you've made the decision to not run Cabal Therapies in the main deck, the rest of the changes feel intuitive. I think it's a metagame call, the more combo you have in your local environment the better Therapies are G1; I may take the Stifle version out for a spin at my next Legacy night.

I've also considered going down to 3 Wastelands and running a 3rd Underground or 2nd Tropical, as cutting off a colour is a popular way to fight this deck post-board.


D&T will be very popular after CN2. How do we adjust the board to compensate for this? More Dread of Night?

Dread of Night, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer are all good known cards, but if you're willing to go a bit deeper, pick up Fire Covenant. It's a house against any fair decks that will let you get to 3 mana. And with that in mind, if you're really worried about D&T, I've considered playing a basic swamp or mountain in the sideboard to bring in against decks that will try to attack your mana base.

[Agrippa91]

These new D&T lists seem really 3-drop heavy, I think Cabal Therapy in the mainboard is as good against them as stifling their Recruiters/Flickerwisps.
If you really want to punish them for playing these expensive new cards I think the way to go would be to play more Null Rods/Pithing Needles/Ancient Grudges to get rid of Aether Vial. Their combo seems rather poor if they don't get 3 free mana each turn.

[Misersoneof]

Hey everyone. I will talk about my results for the tournament this last weekend. I decided to run almost the same list that Agrippa posted before. For reference I played:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Fire Covenant

The main difference was I cut 1 Therapy for 1 extra Surgical in the SB. Here's how my games went.

R1: Esper Stoneblade (0-1)

Game 1: After some back and forth, I used all of my removal on his stoneforges and didn't have the counter for his TNN. He equipped a TNN with a Jitte and that was all she wrote.

Game 2: I drew lands instead of gas and he removed all of my creatures I played. He killed me with 3 power worth of creatures. 

R2: I played against UW Helm.dec (0-2)

Game 1: I get him down to 1 life with my delver but he top decks his helm of obedience after landing his RIP. Had I draw a single bolt that game I would've won.

Game 2: I had him down to 2 life but I allowed a Helm of Awakening to resolve that I could've used a daze on but kept it to use a force later. He then played Alter of the Brood which I foolishly allowed to resolve. With 2 tops he mills me out. I forced one of his tops (felt aweful) but he Enlightened Tutor'd for another. Again, had I drawn 1 bolt all game I would've won.

R3: BW modern tokens. (1-2) This deck ran bitterblossom, token spells, pumps and shocks.

G1: I mull to 5 and can't keep up with his tokens but he wins at 3 life.
G2: My deck does a good burn deck impression and I bolt him to the dome and burn him with my grim lavamancer.
G3: similar to Game 2

R4: Punishing Jund (2-2)

G1: I play tight this game and line things up to keep him off of stuff. I am able to kill two of his bobs with the forked bolt so I am now a believer of that card. I stifle his punishing fire that he wants to use on my flipped delver, he bolts the delver using the red mana he created with his grove. Next turn I top a bolt and waste his grove. At 5 life he plays a Thoughseize and I bolt him in responce.

G2: He sees 2 badlands all game, one of which I waste. I pound away with a delver which he bolts. I land a gurmag which kills him before he can see another land. He reveals to me a hand with Lilly, bob and abrupt decay.


My performance was not enough to get me any prizes. I had fun with the deck and I definitely surprised a few people with my stifles. The esper stoneblade player I played R1 took 2nd over all so I don't feel too bad losing to him.

I think if D&T are gonna become more popular (checking the post traffic on the source I definitely think it will be) then I think that main deck cabal therapies might be better than stifle. However, stifling fetches will never stop being fun to me.

[Agrippa91]

Just scrolling through the results made me feel "oh my god 0-4, he did terrible, now everybody will think my deck is garbage:cry:".
Then I realized you have some typos:
Esper Stoneblade is 0-2, UW tokens is 2-1, Jund is 2-0. This makes for a result of 2-2 which is good imo given the fact that you haven't played this exact deck before, so congrats! You had some really tough matchups, Stoneblade and Jund are super removal heavy decks, glad you were able to fight through one of them.

I'm happy you've been content with your list, I'd be interested to hear how much you boarded in the Abrupt Decays and how good you found them. I actually would've boarded them in in all 4 matches: Stoneblade has Jitte and RIP, Helm has RIP (and Energy field?), tokens has Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue and Jund (besides the usual giant Goyfs and Liliana) has Chains of Mephistopheles and sometimes Choke.
Here's what I would've propably boarded:

Stoneblade (I guess UWR and not Deathblade):
-4 FoW (I can see keepin in 1 or 2)
-1 Gurmag Angler (being less reliant on the gy seems good)
+1 Decay (it's really just a versatile removal, but we don't necessarily need it).
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Cabal Therapy
+1 Pyroblast

UW Helm (I don't really know which deck you mean, I just know about a Miracle version with this combo so just guessing):
-1 Forked Bolt
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Angler
-1 Wasteland
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge

UB tokens:
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Fire Covenant
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 FoW

Punishing Jund:
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-3 FoW (unlike against Shardless I like keeping in 1 because some cards are just really nasty)
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Surgical Extraction (people keep telling me this is wrong and it might be, but as a matter of fact Punishing Fire kills 85% of our creatures and makes Angler combat weird. That said I like taking away Groves, leaving them with bad shocks to draw).
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant (MVP imo, card and sometimes tempo advantage. Just don't get too greedy, also boarding out other Lifetaxing cards helps)

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!
Just watching the latest CardKingdom stream, they have a Grixis player there (playing Noah Walker style) who is really good. His plays are just really solid so I thought I might want to share.

https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/84926167

Edit: Unfortunately you only see him in one round, starting at 2: 12: 30. Still worth watching imo.

[Jaytron]

I'm back home on Delver after a few months hiatus on Miracles.

Feels good to be home.

I gave the 4 Angler build a try. I'm unsure how I feel about it. Feels really good vs BGx, but medium vs Miracles. However, it's much easier to resolve an angler through a CB.

Agrippa, thanks for the share, I'll check it out!

[Whitefaces]

Hi guys!
Just watching the latest CardKingdom stream, they have a Grixis player there (playing Noah Walker style) who is really good. His plays are just really solid so I thought I might want to share.

https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/84926167

Edit: Unfortunately you only see him in one round, starting at 2: 12: 30. Still worth watching imo.

Cheers for posting, he does play nicely! And got a little lucky in that G2 vs Shardless :tongue:

[locozildjiangodx]

Ben Friedman posted an article up about his 4 Angler and 4c builds and performances from the past few weeks: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-08192016-gurmag-anglin-and-delver-wranglin/

He says he is going to do videos, and I hope he does! Deck is sweet.

[Agrippa91]

Cheers for posting, he does play nicely! And got a little lucky in that G2 vs Shardless :tongue:

In the last game the Shardless player made a few mistakes though, e.g. fetching Bayou when he has Basic Forest out (why would he need double green?) and, most importantly, blocking the Elemental token with the Baleful Strix when he could've blocked it next turn with the Tar Pit. Not having an answer to the Angler cost him the game there.

[Jandrosaurus]

Finally got some time to play a Legacy league on MTGO. TL;DR went 4-1. Report below.

Decklist:

http://i.imgur.com/usRfkH6.jpg?2

R1 vs Jeskai Control (basically Mentor Miracles without CB/Top). 2-1, 1-0

Game 1
I put him on Miracles. I tempo him out of the game in quick succession. 2x flipped delvers + wasteland get the job done. A late YP + token just add insult to injury. The whole game I was trying to play around terminus, but never saw CB or Top.

Game 2
The grindiest game of magic I've ever played. I sideboarded for Miracles and still never saw CB/Top, just a lot of Lightning Bolts, Snapcaster Mages, V-Cliques, Jace, and Nihiri. Seriously this match took like 17 minutes, each of us answering each other's threats. He was finally able to Council's Judgement my Pithing Needle (naming Nihiri) to tick her up to Ultimate, finding an playing a hasty Emrakul.

Game 3
This game starts with only 3:38 on the clock for me. Nearly 10 minutes for him. I fear the worst. Thankfully, I keep a good hand that only gets better and proceed to tempo him out just like G1. I have to admit, I drew very well, and on-curve. Painful Truths was an allstar and kept the instants/sorceries coming to fuel 2x YPs. A FoW on his before-combat V-Clique with 10 seconds to spare sealed the deal.

http://i.imgur.com/lR41lTH.jpg?1

R2 vs UR Delver 2-0, 2-0

Honestly, I don't remember much of this round. I really only remember blind naming Price of Progress with a Therapy and hitting. Felt like a god.

R3 vs BUG Delver 2-0, 3-0

G1
I put him on Shardless and get ready for the long haul. His first turns are more impressive than mine and it's looking grim. A couple good draws later and I've established a board with Delver and YP. He casts Tombstalker (shrinking his own Goyf). I have the dismember and follow it up with my own big 5/5 delver creature, rendering his Goyf useless.

G2
Side in some Baleful Strixs, Truths, Pyroblast and Needle. Game gets grindy with him answering my early threats with Decay and Dismember. I counter one Goyf and Waste him off green. He's able to land a DRS and casts another goyf. I cast my own drs. He casts a delver and passes. I cast a Gurmag Angler and swing with a flipped delver and DRS to 10. He untaps, misses his Delver flip, and casts a Tombstalker, my last two cards were Force and Probe. :)

R4 vs Goblin Charbelcher 2-1, 4-0

G1
I'm on the draw. He plays out his hand and lands a Charbelcher with a Taiga and 2 Chrome Mox. I kept a hand with gas, but no countermagic. I die on his T2.

G2
I rip his hand apart with back to back Cabal Therapies and he can't recover.

G3
I mull to 6 in order to get countermagic. My hand is Fetch, WL, Ponder, Force, Daze, Therapy. Scrying a Probe to the top(!). He plays Probe and passes the turn. On my turn 1 I Probe (drawing Null Rod!) and Therapy away 2x Desperate Rituals. On his T2, he tries to play a Chrome Mox, I Daze it. He plays Land Grant to grab Taiga and ties to play Rite of Flame. I know he has LED, Burning Wish, Tinder Wall and another card (I forget) in hand so I Force the Rite of Flame knowing I can Wasteland his Taiga. I draw and play a DRS + Wasteland his Taiga. He passes the turn. On my turn 3 I eat his Taiga with DRS and slam Null Rod. Game over.

R5 vs Miracles (MentalMisstep was the guy's name) 0-2, 4-1.

G1
My opponent disconnects 3 times, and wastes like 15 minutes from the clock. His lag finally subsides and we start playing real magic. A blind-flip of Counterbalance, revealing Council's Judgement in response to me casting TNN quickly closes out the game after a DRS and Delver eat removal T1 and T2. Looking at my hand of 2 Lightning Bolt and Gurmag Angler makes me sad as I get chunked by Monk tokens shortly after.

G2
I played a DRS t1, He StPs it his t1.
I play another DRS and pass.
His t2 he tries Brainstorm, I only have a Flusterstorm for permission and it doesn't hit CB or Top so I cast it, hoping to really stall/tempo him out. He only has ~5min on the clock at this point. He fetches and plays a Top, pass. So now it's me with DRS, him with Top.
I play a Delver and pass.
He casts Ponder and then Brainstorm, and plays a fetchland; pass.
My delver doesn't flip, I draw a Gurmag and have YP in hand already with Bolt. I know he probably found Terminus so I hold off on playing any more threats; beat in for 1 with the Delver and pass.
Sure enough, on his turn he draws and casts Terminus. I eat something with DRS. He plays Counterbalance. So now he has 3 land, CB and Top to my 2 land and clear board.
I draw a Probe, play YP and probe him. He taps Top, draws a card and counters Probe. I pass.
He plays Monestary Mentor and passes (no land).
I draw Winter Orb. I try to bolt the mentor (since he drew the top) and he blind reveals Ponder :( I play the Angler and pass.
He plays: Brainstorm, Ponder, Land, Top and StPs my Angler. Now he has monk, 4 tokens and CB/Top. I just have winter orb and that's pretty much all she wrote.

At the end of the match I just said "wow, unreal turn dude!" to which he replied "get rekt." Oh well.

Anyway, not a bad run.

[Jaytron]

Went 1-2 tonight.. some rough matchups.. Pox R1, and Burn R3.. Infect R2 felt easy.

I went with the 4 angler build from Freidman's article. The build is growing on me. I miss Young P a little bit, but not being bound to probe+cabal, and being able to play a bunch of spell pierce main, with flusters in the board felt great.

Infect boarding in flusters/decays/needles/forked bolts while dropping all the thought scours and anglers was great. It felt like they didn't have the resources to fight through that much countermagic and removal. I'm going to keep testing with the 4 angler build for a bit. The speed at which you can drop an Angler G1 is underestimated by a lot of decks. Being able to be very flexible post board feels great too.

[Jandrosaurus]

Continuing my streak of x-1, I wen't 2-1 in tonight's grinder (same one Jaytron was in).

2-0 vs Reanimator. Highlight: blind naming Entomb with Therapy and hitting when he only had 2 cards left in hand, the other being a land.

0-2 vs Maverick. Lowlights: suboptimal play in G1 (also, Scryb Ranger + Mom is really hard to beat). G2 My opponent mulligans to 6 and keeps his scry on the top. I'm on the play. I cast Probe and see: Jitte, SFM, Scooze, 3 lands. I have Therapy, YP, Ponder, Needle, Fetch, DRS in hand. I opt to cast Therapy and take his Jitte since my Probe draws me into Daze. My opponent draws for turn, a Wasteland he kept on top with his scry and takes out my Underground Sea. I never see another land and die several turns later. I probably should have played DRS or even Ponder, looking for land.

2-0 vs TES. Highlight: In G2 casting a YP, only to sac it in order to flashback a Cabal Therapy stripping 2x Dark Ritual I saw off the original (blind) Therapy a turn prior. Opponent never recovered after 4 turns of draw go. I was able to cantrip into threats + Force+blue card for his eventual Infernal Tutor.

[Misersoneof]

Just scrolling through the results made me feel "oh my god 0-4, he did terrible, now everybody will think my deck is garbage:cry:".
Then I realized you have some typos:
Esper Stoneblade is 0-2, UW tokens is 2-1, Jund is 2-0. This makes for a result of 2-2 which is good imo given the fact that you haven't played this exact deck before, so congrats! You had some really tough matchups, Stoneblade and Jund are super removal heavy decks, glad you were able to fight through one of them.

I'm happy you've been content with your list, I'd be interested to hear how much you boarded in the Abrupt Decays and how good you found them. I actually would've boarded them in in all 4 matches: Stoneblade has Jitte and RIP, Helm has RIP (and Energy field?), tokens has Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue and Jund (besides the usual giant Goyfs and Liliana) has Chains of Mephistopheles and sometimes Choke.
Here's what I would've propably boarded:

Stoneblade (I guess UWR and not Deathblade):
-4 FoW (I can see keepin in 1 or 2)
-1 Gurmag Angler (being less reliant on the gy seems good)
+1 Decay (it's really just a versatile removal, but we don't necessarily need it).
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 Cabal Therapy
+1 Pyroblast

UW Helm (I don't really know which deck you mean, I just know about a Miracle version with this combo so just guessing):
-1 Forked Bolt
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Angler
-1 Wasteland
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Cabal Therapy
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Ancient Grudge

UB tokens:
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Fire Covenant
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 FoW

Punishing Jund:
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-3 FoW (unlike against Shardless I like keeping in 1 because some cards are just really nasty)
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Surgical Extraction (people keep telling me this is wrong and it might be, but as a matter of fact Punishing Fire kills 85% of our creatures and makes Angler combat weird. That said I like taking away Groves, leaving them with bad shocks to draw).
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Terminate
+1 Fire Covenant (MVP imo, card and sometimes tempo advantage. Just don't get too greedy, also boarding out other Lifetaxing cards helps)

Sorry to give you a heart attack Agrippa, I did indeed go 2-2. Considering one of those losses would have been a win had I just top decked 1 bolt I almost see it as a 3-1. I didn't really take an notes on my boarding but I do think I remember the basics of what I brought in and out.

Stoneblade
-2 FOW
-4 Stifle
+2 Therapy
+1 Grudge
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 needle
+1 REB

I realize that stifle protects my lands but forgot that fact when sidebording. Game 1 I did kill several of his lands and I think I stifled 1 fetch so he seemed desperate to keep his mana to play around things like daze (which slowed him down). I didn't bring the abrupt decays because I was worried that lingering souls and TNN would invalidate them.

UW Helm

This deck just screamed miracles to me, but game 1 the only spells I saw were top, terminus, helm, RIP and a bunch of cantrips. Don't know if he ran any counterbalances but I never saw one nor any volcs. In game 2 my wastelands and stifles did do some work and he was unable to get any more than 3 lands in play. Still never saw a counterbalance tho.

I boarded pretty similar to what you had listed.

BW tokens

-2 FOW
-4 Stifle
+2 Therapy
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Fire Covenant

I felt stifle wasn't going to do much since he wasn't running fetches and he only had 1-2 ghost quarters. Therapy was a good inclusion since I was able to discard away his elspeth. My friend at the tournament said that he would've boarded differently. He suggested that I bring in flusterstorm, surgical extraction and invasive surgery. His point was that by countering the sorcery token producers, I could remove them from the game and leave him with few win cons.

Punishing Jund

Pretty much what you have listed. I like surgicals as well which is why I brought in the second over the 4th FOW.

[Whitefaces]

My friend at the tournament said that he would've boarded differently. He suggested that I bring in flusterstorm, surgical extraction and invasive surgery. His point was that by countering the sorcery token producers, I could remove them from the game and leave him with few win cons.

I completely disagree with this, I think you boarded well. Bringing in Surgical vs non Punishing Fire fair decks is almost always wrong, even if they have Lingering Souls. Surgery is relying on Delirium too which isn't that easy to get vs StP decks, and just countering one side of Souls is pretty poor.

[Svyelunite]

I completely disagree with this, I think you boarded well. Bringing in Surgical vs non Punishing Fire fair decks is almost always wrong, even if they have Lingering Souls. Surgery is relying on Delirium too which isn't that easy to get vs StP decks, and just countering one side of Souls is pretty poor.

If the plan is to beat Lingering Souls, don't most Grixis Decks have Dread of Night, or at least access to it, to beat DnT anyway? Seems like it could do some work there. Might be a little narrow for the Stoneblade matchups, but better than Surgical or Invasive Surgery IMO.

[Whitefaces]

If the plan is to beat Lingering Souls, don't most Grixis Decks have Dread of Night, or at least access to it, to beat DnT anyway? Seems like it could do some work there. Might be a little narrow for the Stoneblade matchups, but better than Surgical or Invasive Surgery IMO.

Theoretically yes, but it's not a common SB card for Grixis and I was just commenting on the SB he listed.

If DnT gets the uptick everybody is expecting from Prelate and Recruiter Dread may well make its way into Grixis SBs, or maybe Sulfur Elemental.

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, so I tested the following build against a few decks last night:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Go for the Throat
1 Fire Covenant
1 Snapcaster Mage

The list felt smooth and powerful. I think two Thought Scours are enough to support three Anglers. I didn't want to go all-in on the Zombie Fish because they're not great against combo and are soft to Rest in Peace (which I faced yesterday). Plus only running ten cantrips gave me more space for additional removal and permission. Angler was super soft to Swords, but at least the two True-Names gave me a complimentary, resilient threat.

I made a couple greedy choices for the sake of testing, notably the singleton Abrupt Decay and good ol' Counterspell. I wanted the former in order to deal with the preponderance of equipment in my local meta and a quick Chalice. I tested two in the past, which required a second Trop - not worth mucking up the mana. I think running one Decay is ok in this iteration of Grixis because it runs three Seas instead of three Volcs. Counterspell was actually pretty good when I saw it. People complain about how clunky it can be, yet they play Vendilion Clique, which has an even more prohibitive cost. I may stick with it, not finding it unwieldy at all because there are only four cards (2 TNN, 1 Decay, 1 CSpell) that cost more than :1:.

I like that this removal/permission suite is more flexible than the Pyro lists. Not sure about the numbers - my meta skews fair, hence seven removal spells maindeck. The sideboard may need a couple tweaks, too; Fire Covenant could perhaps be something else, for example. I had no experience with the card, so I wanted to sleeve it up. I should probably cut something for Clique so I have a better threat package against combo. But it was a start. Open to any and all feedback.

Thanks!

[Star|Scream]

I like the SB Snapcaster with all your one-ofs and thought scours. It should prove clutch in the grindier matchups

[VERTUK]

In the last game the Shardless player made a few mistakes though, e.g. fetching Bayou when he has Basic Forest out (why would he need double green?) and, most importantly, blocking the Elemental token with the Baleful Strix when he could've blocked it next turn with the Tar Pit. Not having an answer to the Angler cost him the game there.

I have another thing to talk. In G1, why Grixis player didnt attack with the elementals? he could get some dmg from it and dont need to draw the bolt

[Agrippa91]

I have another thing to talk. In G1, why Grixis player didnt attack with the elementals? he could get some dmg from it and dont need to draw the bolt

He had 1 YP, 2 tokens and no fuel left afair against a DRS. If you attack with everything, the opponent might block the Elementals first and then the YP. By offering the trade with the YP first he ensures that he'll still have 2 dmg per turn left even in YP gets traded away.
That said I also like attacking with everything there. Getting in 3 dmg when he blocks the Elemental with the upside of YP not being dealt with is just too big. Even if he blocks the YP it doesn't matter because you just traded your inactive YP for an active DRS and your Elementals no longer can be block.

[VERTUK]

He had 1 YP, 2 tokens and no fuel left afair against a DRS. If you attack with everything, the opponent might block the Elementals first and then the YP. By offering the trade with the YP first he ensures that he'll still have 2 dmg per turn left even in YP gets traded away.
That said I also like attacking with everything there. Getting in 3 dmg when he blocks the Elemental with the upside of YP not being dealt with is just too big. Even if he blocks the YP it doesn't matter because you just traded your inactive YP for an active DRS and your Elementals no longer can be block.

Yeah i see it the same way. However, i meant the situation when grixis player had 3 tokens and a YP and a DRS and the BUG player had a Tarmogoyf. I think attacking with all three tokens is the best option cause you lost one of them but BUG player take 2. Grixis player didint see it the same way, cause he didnt attack.

[Agrippa91]

Yeah i see it the same way. However, i meant the situation when grixis player had 3 tokens and a YP and a DRS and the BUG player had a Tarmogoyf. I think attacking with all three tokens is the best option cause you lost one of them but BUG player take 2. Grixis player didint see it the same way, cause he didnt attack.

Oh, in that scenario I actually really like not attacking. Your army gets only bigger, the Goyf can't swing because the counterattack would be too much and the DRS drains nicely each turn. Even if the opponent finds a Decay for the YP (which would propably be the right choice) you still have a big enough force to hit him back for at least 5 if he starts attacking (3+drs).

On the contrast if you only attack for 2 and next turn for 1 your force if dwindling and soon the goyf threatens to race you when he's like 5-6 power. That's assuming that you don't produce a new token every turn but that was more of a thing while DTT and TC were around, not so much today where it's more like "make 2-4 tokens before YP dies or you run out of gas" most of the time.

[VERTUK]

Oh, in that scenario I actually really like not attacking. Your army gets only bigger, the Goyf can't swing because the counterattack would be too much and the DRS drains nicely each turn. Even if the opponent finds a Decay for the YP (which would propably be the right choice) you still have a big enough force to hit him back for at least 5 if he starts attacking (3+drs).

On the contrast if you only attack for 2 and next turn for 1 your force if dwindling and soon the goyf threatens to race you when he's like 5-6 power. That's assuming that you don't produce a new token every turn but that was more of a thing while DTT and TC were around, not so much today where it's more like "make 2-4 tokens before YP dies or you run out of gas" most of the time.


Maybe you are right, i just see it like Grixis is the aggro deck and has to close the game soon before Bug player draws anything (a sweeper?) and the fun ends xd

[Agrippa91]

Still, you have to realize when you're ahead. I agree that you should almost always trade damage because you have more aggressive creatures and Lightning Bolt, but trading 3 damage for 2 1/1s seems like a bad deal to me, at least when the opponent still has tons of life left.

[Gotuso]

Question: what's a good way to tailor the deck to beat Death and Taxes? (aside from putting Dread of Night in the sideboard)

I played in a legacy bi-monthly recently and there was a lot of Death and Taxes deck. Between that, the Aggro Loam deck I faced and the 1 Miracles player I can't beat I was thinking of including True Name Nemesis. Would this work as an adjustment? Should I try and go for the Angler + Thought Scour build? Or am I better of just going for something like Bant blade/Deathblade to beat the 'fair' decks?

[Jaytron]

Turbo Angler seems pretty soft to StP decks, tbh. :\

RUG at least can run rough/tumble along with forked bolts.. Unsure what options you have as Grixis other than Forked bolt and cards like Fire Covenent. Turbo Angler means you could Rough/ Tumble, but it would still kill your Deathrites :(

[Gotuso]

Rough // Tumble seems good, but would you play it mainboard? Dread of Night seems better from the sideboard.

Ben Friendman posted an article on Grixis Delver, specifically about his love for Snapcaster Mage and also about the new turbo Angler build:

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-08192016-gurmag-anglin-and-delver-wranglin/

The True-Name Nemesis build seems interesting. He says he would cut 'Goyf for either Angler or Strix and I'm leaning towards the first option myself.

[Agrippa91]

I think Noah Walker's list is really good against D&T game 1 (at least the old versions):

- YP goes a long way if unanswered (he's kind of a must-kill alongside delver). Cabal Therapy is pretty good against Stoneforge Mystic, the opponent is also forced to either play into Daze or get his stuff discarded.
- I like the newer Sideboard that's less focused on creature-hate that relies on the gy. Darkblast and Grim Lavamancer seem rather bad against D&T with no answers to RIP. Forked Bolt on the other side is pretty good, Fire Covenant helps cleaning up everything. I'd propably have one of each of them in the sb.
Since Noah is not running Abrupt Decay I actually like his Engineered Explosives, could be it's better in general. It's definitely not bad against D&T, just remember that your Insectile Aberrations now have a cmc of 1 with the new rule!
- In the mainboard the 5th removal is a flex slot between Forked Bolt and Dismember, Forked Bolt is definitely preferable in this matchup.

Overall I think the matchup can be tailored to be in your favor overall, have fun!

Edit: Here's Noah Walker playing against D&T btw:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhZTZPlXCme78ufUQW-tV9qFIJ-iTmcCh

He now also has video series against Storm and Lands (so far).

[DanGomba]

Might be a long shot, but does anyone think the new Saheeli Rai could find a home in Grixis Delver? The +1 and -2 could be pretty nice. Copying a flipped delver for extra beats, or copying a pyromancer for double tokens. I am thinking why not test it in the true-name/v-clique flex spot. Maybe I'm out of my mind.

Thoughts???

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Saheeli-Rai-Planeswalker-Spoiler.png

[Agrippa91]

I'm sorry to say that buy you're completely (!) out of your mind.
This card is just the worst and it would surprise me if it would even see play in standard. It has not a single mode to get either creature or card advantage (the scrying 1 is a joke) making it bad against aggro, control AND combo. Furthermore the ultimate does plain nothing. When you untap with a YP (which rarely has to happen in order to use her -2) you're in good spot anyways, not saying that copying that creature would even do much good.

The reason why TNN and Clique are good is because one is super awesome against "fair" decks and the other one is super awesome against "unfair" (combo) decks, making this slot a metagame choice.

Edit: @DanGomba: Misersoneof is right when he doesn't agree with my phrasing, sry for that. I at first figured using your own words would make it sound ok, but it's something quite different when you call yourself out of your mind or when somebody else does it. My apologies, all I wanted to emphasize is that I really don't think that this new planeswalker is a playable card in Legacy.

[Misersoneof]

Might be a long shot, but does anyone think the new Saheeli Rai could find a home in Grixis Delver? The +1 and -2 could be pretty nice. Copying a flipped delver for extra beats, or copying a pyromancer for double tokens. I am thinking why not test it in the true-name/v-clique flex spot. Maybe I'm out of my mind.

Thoughts???

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Saheeli-Rai-Planeswalker-Spoiler.png


I'm sorry to say that buy you're completely (!) out of your mind.
This card is just the worst and it would surprise me if it would even see play in standard. It has not a single mode to get either creature or card advantage (the scrying 1 is a joke) making it bad against aggro, control AND combo. Furthermore the ultimate does plain nothing. When you untap with a YP (which rarely has to happen in order to use her -2) you're in good spot anyways, not saying that copying that creature would even do much good.

The reason why TNN and Clique are good is because one is super awesome against "fair" decks and the other one is super awesome against "unfair" (combo) decks, making this slot a metagame choice.

I agree with Agrippa that the card probably won't find a place in Grixis legacy shells (even tho I don't agree with the sentiment used). Her plus ability does help us scry to gas and adds to our clock (although just slightly) and her 2nd ability helps when we are ahead or at parity, but on the whole she doesn't do enough when you are behind. It's important to keep in mind that Grixis is a tempo deck and our main goal is to speed up the clock while keeping the opponent stuck in the early stages of the game. She doesn't really help this plan. She would be better fit a combo shell that uses artifacts.

[Hrothgar]

With the current maindeck, Saheeli simply have no sense in Grixis.

[Darkness]

Anyone have insight with Noah Walker's List how I should board on the play//draw vs Shardless BUG?

Finding I want to bring in Strix's Vortex E.E., pyroblast, painful truth, and possibly the Winter's Orb.

[Agrippa91]

Anyone have insight with Noah Walker's List how I should board on the play//draw?

Finding I want to bring in Strix's Vortex E.E., pyroblast, painful truth, and possibly the Winter's Orb.

What matchup are we talking about? The cards you mention are good in some matchups no matter wether you're on the play or on the draw.

[Darkness]

What matchup are we talking about? The cards you mention are good in some matchups no matter wether you're on the play or on the draw.

Sorry Agrippa91, it was for Shardless BUG, I corrected myself thanks for pointing it out.

[Agrippa91]

Sufluric Vortex is not a good card vs. Shardless. They can put on a clock really fast when they draw a Tarmogoyf or have small stuff around.
Personally I really like Daze vs. Shardless (I play stifle though which makes daze better in general).
Noteworthy is that the opponent can't really "punish" your for FoW-ing a spell because they don't play any cheap countermagic like Daze, Flusterstorm or REB.
People in general keep in FoW otd against Shardless, especially when they don't have good answers to Tarmogoyf.
The daze/fow count is the only thing that changes depending wether you're otp or not. It really depends though how many sideboard cards you have in general.

Explosives, Truths and Strix are great card in the matchup, Noah himself pointed out several times that he has Winter Orb only against Miracles. People here on the forums have liked it against Shardles, too though. Keep in mind that you have to get rid of their shamans, otherwise Winter Orb is very mediocre.

[Darkness]

Sufluric Vortex is not a good card vs. Shardless. They can put on a clock really fast when they draw a Tarmogoyf or have small stuff around.
Personally I really like Daze vs. Shardless (I play stifle though which makes daze better in general).
Noteworthy is that the opponent can't really "punish" your for FoW-ing a spell because they don't play any cheap countermagic like Daze, Flusterstorm or REB.
People in general keep in FoW otd against Shardless, especially when they don't have good answers to Tarmogoyf.
The daze/fow count is the only thing that changes depending wether you're otp or not. It really depends though how many sideboard cards you have in general.

Explosives, Truths and Strix are great card in the matchup, Noah himself pointed out several times that he has Winter Orb only against Miracles. People here on the forums have liked it against Shardles, too though. Keep in mind that you have to get rid of their shamans, otherwise Winter Orb is very mediocre.

Thoughts on keeping Therapies in the Deck as they are a tap out control deck?

[pjetr0]

Could you tell me how is the ug infect matchup in general? Plus any advice what to side out and side in? Sideboard for my meta is following:

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pitnihg Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Winter Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast

Thanks,
Peter

[Jaytron]

Could you tell me how is the ug infect matchup in general? Plus any advice what to side out and side in? Sideboard for my meta is following:

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pitnihg Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Painful Truths
1 Winter Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast

Thanks,
Peter

What's your main deck?

[pjetr0]

Maindeck is pretty stock. My meta is usually dnt, gwx, miracles, eldrazi, merfolks, snt, jund, grixis, shardless, nic fit. Occasionally ant, elves, mud, pox, burn, aggro loam and infect.

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

2 Cabal Therapy

Originally, dismember was forked bolt previously but right now dismember seems to have more impact. The same applies for spell snare vs gitaxian probe.

Regards,
Peter

[Agrippa91]

I really would recommend having a Forked Bolt or Grim Lavamancer in the SB. You other removal spells can just be too clunky against Infect (Daze, Spell Pierce), D&T (Thalia, Wasteland, Port) or Elves (mass).
I'd recommend cutting the terminate from the sb or changing the mb dismember for a terminate to get an extra sb slot.
Also Spell Pierce seems odd as a sideboard card, you bring it in against Miracles and Prison decks (mediocre against both) or why is it not a flusterstorm or invasive surgery?

Against Infect with your list I'd board in
1 Pithing Needle (most importantly Blinkmoth Nexus, but also Pendelhaven when it's already on the battlefield)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate (better Forked Bolt or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Pyroblast (most importantly Agent and Brainstorm, but also Spell Pierce and FoW since they'll have some of those, too)

Many of your removal spells are rather clunky, perhaps you should not board in Engineered Explosives (also hits your own guys and not Nexus) and Decay (doesn't hit Nexus, mana can be hard).
For the 4 remaining cards I would board out 2 Anglers and 2 FoWs.

Generally in the matchup you want to kill their stuff on your turn so they can't utilize pump spells while also dealing damage to you. Look also for windows to utilize your removal spells, e.g. when they're tapping out eot for fetching or brainstorming and you have Daze backup.
Inkmoth Nexus you should only target once it already has a pump spell directed at it, otherwise you can kill it once the combat step is over and your opponent's pump now longer affects how many poison counters you get.

[Hrothgar]

In my experience the Infect matchup is not bad.
Many of our resources work good vs this archetype.
Young Pyromancer can create many blocker for Glistener Elf and this creature is not a problem.
Wasteland go on Nexus, I make attention for this and do not waste tropical many times.
Bolt on Agent.

In G2 the matchup is too easy because you put in many good cards vs Infect.

[Sigi85]

Hi Guys!

What do you think about the new card Lost Legacy ?
In my opinion could be a valid Side card for the deck, can go to solve many problem of the deck (Counterbalance,Terminus,Life from the Loam,Punishing Fire...) and with Deathrite Shaman, teorically you can do it on turn 2!
Im finding Miracle match up, really hard, every their cards, need a Force of will, and also if you stop Counterbalance, they have too many win codition against us...

[Jaytron]

Hi Guys!

What do you think about the new card Lost Legacy ?
In my opinion could be a valid Side card for the deck, can go to solve many problem of the deck (Counterbalance,Terminus,Life from the Loam,Punishing Fire...) and with Deathrite Shaman, teorically you can do it on turn 2!
Im finding Miracle match up, really hard, every their cards, need a Force of will, and also if you stop Counterbalance, they have too many win codition against us...

I don't think it's good.

Miracles is hard, but I really think it can go either way. It's not super lopsided in their favor.

[Whitefaces]

This weekend a friend asked me why Grixis, especially the ones with two Therapy MD, play more Volcs than seas if there there are more cards needing black mana than red (4 DRS, 2 Angler, 2 Therapy and sometimes Decay in the SB vs 4 bolt, 3 YP sometimes a Forked Bolt). I couldn't give a good answer, could anybody expand on it?

Thanks.

[btm10]

I've always assumed that people did that because cutting the third Sea for the Trop gives you the same number of lands that cast Deathrite Shaman rather than shorting yourself on lands that cast Pyromancer and Lightning Bolt. I've been playing 19 Lands in my Grixis/4c lists lately specifically because they've been skewing Black and the deck really wants access to three colored sources for Pyromancer + spell or cantrip + Pierce/Therapy + Deathrite activation

[Darkness]

This weekend a friend asked me why Grixis, especially the ones with two Therapy MD, play more Volcs than seas if there there are more cards needing black mana than red (4 DRS, 2 Angler, 2 Therapy and sometimes Decay in the SB vs 4 bolt, 3 YP sometimes a Forked Bolt). I couldn't give a good answer, could anybody expand on it?

Thanks.

It is because the importance to answer a turn one threat is more relevant via lightning bolt than casting a turn one black spell. It's not a huge variance as you have 8 fetch lands but it does make a difference.

[Whitefaces]

I've always assumed that people did that because cutting the third Sea for the Trop gives you the same number of lands that cast Deathrite Shaman rather than shorting yourself on lands that cast Pyromancer and Lightning Bolt. I've been playing 19 Lands in my Grixis/4c lists lately specifically because they've been skewing Black and the deck really wants access to three colored sources for Pyromancer + spell or cantrip + Pierce/Therapy + Deathrite activation

That's a very reasonable point, I didn't consider it but now seems so obvious! Thanks. Despite how bad it is with Delver and Daze playing a Badlands becomes more and more enticing. I'm a big fan of 19 lands too.


It is because the importance to answer a turn one threat is more relevant via lightning bolt than casting a turn one black spell. It's not a huge variance as you have 8 fetch lands but it does make a difference.

I don't buy this though, the % you gain from having that extra red source turn one isn't worth being wastedlanded off Seas. When I play against Grixis I never waste Volcs unless I'm very ahead on Tempo.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Right, and if it's available, I was under the impression that a turn 1 Deathrite is always the best play, other than bolting Mother of Runes before she is active. Is this incorrect?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Right, and if it's available, I was under the impression that a turn 1 Deathrite is always the best play, other than bolting Mother of Runes before she is active. Is this incorrect?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

If your opponent opens with their own Deathrite on the play then Bolt is also preferable to Deathrite. The amount that Shardless or another Delver deck can pull ahead with 3 mana on turn 2 is probably too much to overcome, especially if they remove your Deathrite.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That makes good sense. Thanks. Now I can understand why some people are considering a Badlands, although not being able to daze to resolve a turn 1 play feels like an incorrect scenario.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Right, and if it's available, I was under the impression that a turn 1 Deathrite is always the best play, other than bolting Mother of Runes before she is active. Is this incorrect?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

It's almost always the best play, but as mentioned there are a few where it may not be.

- If you're on the draw and your opponent played a Deathrite Shaman or Mother of Runes, best to Bolt it now.
- If you're on the draw against a potential T2 kill (Infect, Storm, etc.), sometimes it's better to Wasteland them T1.
- If you're on the play and need a fast clock, I prefer to play a Delver T1 and Deathrite T2.

The only situation I can see myself fetching a Badlands is to play around Choke, Otherwise, I'd rather cut a Wasteland or maybe the 3rd Volcanic for the 3rd Underground. The 3/2/1 split is so well-known that some players won't even bother Wasting your Volcs, especially if they're actively trying to keep you off Angler or Deathrite.

[Agrippa91]

@Phyrexian Librarian:

You make some good points. I don't agree with the last one though (playing DRS over Delver against infect and storm):
- One of the best openers (disregarding YP->therapy here) you can have (no matter how many FoW, Stifles and soft counters you might have) is t1 u-sea=>DRS t2 volc=>delver holding open DRS. This allows you a super fast clock.
- Vs. storm this allows you to hold open DRS which is really important because you can screw with PIF and keep their gy in check that way. You also present a lot by keeping open 2 mana (stifle, spell pierce and brainstorm being the most important ones).
- Vs. Infect you really want the mana to play around their soft counters (Daze and Spell Pierce), also trading a t1 drs for a pump spell is better than trading t1 delver for a pump spell or glistener elf imo.

When Delver is your only blue card you should also definitely play out the DRS, no matter what deck you're playing against.
Another point about whether or not to play out DRS is whether you're tight on mana. If you have a YP in hand you pretty much want to play out DRS t1 no matter what (exception: your opponent has an uncracked fetch, you have a stifle and a second land OR your opponent plays a t1 drs otp).
Keeping 1 land + drs OTP is prefect imo, keeping it OTD is risky though imo (you opp could just kill and waste your drs when he untaps). In this case I will often times ponder on my first turn otd trying to find a second land, options are also holding up stifle and brainstorming eot (trying to find a land or cantrip).
I will always play out my DRS OTD with only 1 land when I have a FoW in hand though which I'll use to counter their removal spell. This loses to waste+decay after a t1 drs but that's a very narrow line and far less likely than t2 bolt + waste from the opponent.

I would play Delver on my first turn though if I have 3 (non-waste-) lands in hand. In this case you don't have much more stuff to do anyways and the faster clock is actually nice.

When you know you're playing against Eldrazi I would also tend to lead on Delver since it's a really good card against them and they can only dismember it once it flips (often times having to run a warping wail into daze).

I don't know if that was at all reasonable, it's pretty late here. As you can see though it's really difficult to say "that's how it is". So here's what rules of thumbs I would summarize:


When you have a delver, a bolt and a drs in hand you hand on turn 1 you...

...bolt the opponent's mana elf. Exceptions might be Tropical into Noble Hierarch (infect) and t1 non-DRS elf (Elves).

...play a drs when
1. you have a FoW in hand and you don't want/have to pitch a blue card other than delver to it
2. you're tight on mana and you need to get your cantrips, YP going on t2
3. You only have 1 land in hand

...play a delver when
1. you know you're playing against Eldrazi or Miracles and you already have 2 lands in hand
2. you have 3+ (non waste-)lands in hand, so a fast clock is better to pull ahead because you won't need DRS's mana anyways and it's uncertain there'll be any cantrips to eat t2 when you play your delver.



I would use this order, so any bolt argument outclasses every DRS and Delver argument and every DRS argument outclasses every Delver argument.


Now to what I actually wanted to write:

I finally finished my Grixis Delver list on MtGO and (after a few days of practice matches to get the hang of it) I jumped into a league the other day.
It's my standard list:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate

lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant


I went 3-2:

1. BUG Opposition (drew Fire Covenant in both sideboard games, but didn't even need it) 2-1.

G1 I had the option of playing out my Wasteland, but didn't do it because I thought I only could use it the next turn anyways. As it turns out he played Coiling Oracle into Gaea's Cradle into Garruk Wildspeaker, untapping Cradle (I could've wasted there), playing Behemoth and I lose with FoW and Wasteland in hand.
G2 I land an early Grim Lavamancer + DRS. I don't even put on a clock, but just kill every creature besides Oracle and Visionary (which get negated by DRS). He finally concedes while I still have Fire Covenant in hand for when he "goes off". Also I stifled several lands there, he was forced to discard when he conceded.
G3 was similar. I kept a mediocre starting hand, but drew a Fire Covenant. Knowing I could tap out 1 turn because I also had FoW I advanced my board, next turn I killed a bunch of his stuff, stifle 2 of his lands, pyroblast a coiling oracle and he concedes while I again have Fire Covenant still in hand. This matchup seems just really favorable.
SB: g2 -4 FoW -3 Probe + Covenant, Pyroblast, F-Bolt, Lavamancer, Surgery and 2 decay. G3 I realized I really wanted like 2 Forces and cut 2 Anglers to bring in 2 FoW.

2. UR Delver: Very close games, Angler saved me G1, but got "set adrift" g2. I win a close game 3 thanks to YP against Bedlam Reveler, double dazing his Stormchaser Mage for 2 Tokens so he had to tap out, leaving me with exactly enough to win next turn even if he leaves both creatures behind to block. He plays a a Chain Lightning instead and I realized that I floated blue mana from daze off a volcanic island so I can't copy it. Punt! I still won for exactsies because he was 4 points off (Fireblast as his last card would've done it). 2-1
SB: -2 FoW, Pierce, 3 Probes, + Pyroblast, Fluster, F-Bolt, Lavamancer, 2 Decay.

3. WR Painter (I did an embarassing t2 misplay otd where I landed a YP after a t1 DRS and instead of leaving bolt open for his combo on t3 (he had already painter + grindstone) I left u-sea open for cabal therapy. He played a land and finished me the next turn. I was so embarassed. G3 I mulled to 5 and lost a grindy game, I totally deserved that loss though against this favorable matchup. 1-2
SB: -2 Angler, 4 Stifle, Terminate, +2 Needle, 2 Decay, Grudge, 2 Therapy

4. Eldrazi: I keep a hand with a bunch of counters and a ponder, but can't find a creature until like turn 5 an anglerwhere it's already too late. He has a bunch of caverns, so my counters don't do anything. I stifle one TKS and one Oblivion Sower (he's playing a big eldrazi deck, I'll talk about it down the line) and lost game
1. G2 I mull to 5 (7 was 2x volc 2x drs 2x probe bolt, 6 had only wasteland as mana) and lose to a quick clock. This deck just wrecked me. Note that I boarded like I was used to against the "small" Eldrazi, leaving in all the bolts and not siding in Cabal Therapies. 0-2
SB: -4 Stifle, 1 Probe, 1 Pierce, + Covenant, Lavamancer, F-Bolt, 2 Decay, Grudge

5. Miracles: Game 1 otd my opponent leads with a SDT and passes. I play t1 Delver. He tops t2 and plays a land, I land a DRS (have 2x Force + BS in hand).
He lands a Counterbalance which I force pitching the Brainstorm, he draws with top and forces back. I draw a blue card next turn, managing to force his top before it comes down again. He draws nothing and I beat him for 5 each turn.
Game 2 I have a t1 Pithing Needle. I preemptively name SDT, not sure that's right though (it's not better once he plays the top, it's always card disadvantage for me). I lose to a Jace after he answers all my threats.
G3 I play Usea and a preemptive Needle on SDT on t1. He plays Polluted Delta and passes. Since I have stifle, I play a Flooded Strand and a DRS. He plays an island and passes. I brainstorm on my next turn and he brainstorms in response. I let it resolve, he then cracks his fetch which I eat with DRS so I don't have to crack my land before my bs resolves. This manascrewed him severely and I managed to land a Delver the following turn. He never drew much more than 2 more islands and landed a counterbalance. I had drew decay and was weary about exposing myself to Vendilion Clique (he can flash in response to DRS making green). I draw second decay, but never play anything and bring him down to 0 life with 6 cards in hand. I kept the decay in case he flashes in a clique to block my delver because I'd have to kill it. 2-1
-2 Wasteland, 2 Daze, Terminate, 2 Bolts, + 2 needles, Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, Surgery, 2 decay

So yeah, 3-2 in my first Legacy League. Still super embarassed about not killing painter servant t2 with bolt, fow, daze and ancient grudge in hand. The last time I was that embarassed was when I tilted against my opp playing the new TNN 2 years ago and I attacked into it the turn after with my swiftspear. Vs. Eldrazi my draws were not representative imo (not finding any threats until really late and mulling to 5), I looked forward to playing against it again.


So, since I made my money back I decided to play another League today. I was way less anxious than yesterday which was good (not playing that much competitive Legacy these days).

Round 1: RW Painter (Strawberry Shortcake)

G1: My opponent has a rather slow start and I just beat him with a quick DRS and Gurmag Angler while bolting his Painter Servant while he was tapped out.

G2: I keep a hand with double daze, drs, probe and therapy. My opponent t1 blood moons me and I concede. No point in playing to my outs with YP and bots, I can do that when he is at a low life and has no cards but not on t1.

G3 he mulls to 5 (perhaps mulling to a blood moon). I kept a rather clunky hand with a fetchland (had to fetch volcanic) and a tropical, but Delver, YP and a FoW with blue. He pyroblasts my delver, I then land a YP. He enlightened tutors for a Painter Servant and plays it. I still couldn't find a blue land, but my 2 FoW in hand are now actually turned on with Abrupt Decay and Cabal Therapy. He goes for my YP with a Pyroblast and I bolt his Servant in response (negating his PB). He pyroblasts it, I force back pitching Cabal Therapy and he concedes.

SB: -2 Angler, 4 Stifle, Terminate, +2 Needle, 2 Decay, Grudge, 2 Therapy; 2-1


Round 2: UB Reanimator:

G1: Because he led with a fetchland I managed to stifle and waste him off his mana, he concedes as I land a DRS on t3.

G2: I keep a hand with 2 lands, DRS, Surgical, but no FoW. He lands a t1 Pithing Needle on DRS and I can do nothing about it. I brainstorm (finding another shaman). I knew Pithing Needle would be a thing, but because of his decays I didn't bother siding in against one specific card.
So I shuffled away my both shamans and leaned on disruption heavily to hopefully find a creature at some point. Because of a Therapy in my hand I surgicaled his Elesh Norn to get a look at his hand, but forgot to click on it so it doesn't actually exile. Big punt, but I finally draw a YP on like t7 and narrowly win, having exhausted all my resources, by Dazing his last Reanimate after he pondered for it with only 2 lands in play.

SB: -2 Angler, -4 Bolt, -1 Terminate, +3 therapy, surgical, flusterstorm, surgery, pyroblast; 2-0


Round 3: Storm

G1: I have a t1 DRS, t2 Volc Delver, but don't draw any more lands (perhaps I wasted him one). I force a Dark Ritual that he plays with a Lotus Petal. It comes down to me holding up U-sea, Volc and DRS with Daze, Stifle and Brainstorm in hand when my opponent goes off. I decide to not dig for a Force for his first ritual but daze it, leaving him with only black mana. He plays a duress and takes my Stifle. After making 8 mana via rituals he plays infernal tutor as his last card. I brainstorm in response and draw a force. A stifle would've been enough here since he had only black mana, not enough life for Ad Nauseam and no way to play past in flames (which DRS would've shut off anyways with only 1 tutor).

G2: I keep a hand with Gitaxian Probe, Therapy, Daze and YP. He goes off he goes Petal into Rituals into LED, Past in Flames and makes exactly 20 goblins.

G3: I have a really good starting hand and keep FoW, Surgery, Delver, YP, DRS, fetchland and Stifle. Despite paranoia I lead with t1 DRS. Even without FoW this would've been my line, there's no reason to hold up stifle and surgery when I don't know if I draw a 2nd land to play my creatures.
He plays t1 Petal into Dark Rit. I play FoW playing Delver (another reason not to play that guy t1: I had way too many creatures in hand). He passes the turn.
I play an additional land, a YP and pass the turn. He draws a fetch and plays it, but I stifle it. He doesn't draw another land and I quickly beat him with YP and DRS.

SB: -2 Angler, 4 Bolts, Terminate, + Surgery, Flusterstorm, 3 therapies, surgical, pyroblast; 2-0


Round 4: Grixis Delver

G1: I keep an uncomfortable hand with 3 lands, wasteland, DRS, Ponder and Bolt. My opponent probes me and bolts. I know that deck!
I shy away from wasting his volc (I'd rather hit black and I have bolt to deal with stuff), so I play Volc and Ponder (don't want it to get dazed since I'm already light on action). I find Brainstorm Daze and YP. He wastes me which is super fine for me, I just play a Delver and fetch. He bolts, next turn I play my YP and waste back (since he fetched for his 2nd volc I figured he was just UR). Fortunately all he has is a YP on his own which I Bolt. I get more tokens than he can keep up with since he doesn't find an answer immediately and keep FoW and Probe and 2 open mana to prevent him from landing an Angler (paranoid, I propably could've won even if he did).

G2: He mulls to 6, I keep a hand of FoW, Daze, Ponder, Decay, YP, Strand + Trop. I try to force (pitching daze) his T1 DRS (gives him lots of tempo, he's already behind 1 card), but he dazes back. I decay his DRS on my 2nd turn and he follows it up with a Gurmag Angler, playing right into my Daze. Seemed suspicious and of course he also had a daze, but I had to try. I begin to sweat and play my YP into Ponder, finding additional cantrips. I find Bolt, Delver and Lavamancer and decide to play the lavaman. He then plays his 4th land and plays Fire Covenant. Fortunately I have Flusterstorm in hand and I play it, but don't realize until 10 min later that my clock is ticking because MtGO wanted me to stack my triggers for YP and Flusterstorm. Oh well, that tempo loss shut the door, opponent told me he had Pyroblast in hand (1 mana open). I'm glad I checked my clock after browing 10 min on imgur, wondering why my opponent didn't concede or pass priority (he had only 1 mana and 1 card in hand, I knew there was no card in magic history that could prevent my flusterstorm).

Sideboarding (I don't like Fire Covenant because it's expensive and loses the game if it doesn't resolve): -2 FoW, 3 Probe, Pierce, +Flusterstorm, Pyroblast, F-Bolt, Lavamancer, 2 Decay; 2-0


Round 5: Big Eldrazi *yikes*

G1: My opponent is otp for G1 and leads with Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith. I Force it (thinking of MUD). I draw an additional Force and have the option of playing either Wasteland or DRS. I should've played my Shaman there because I can still force whatever he plays on his turn (nothing scary with colorless manafor 3 mana when he plays cavern of souls) and waste him on my next turn,giving me 2 mana to do stuff.
Oh well, stupid as I am I waste immediately and he drops 2 Eldrazi temple in a row, TKS-ing and Oblivion Sowering me ftw. Not sure I could've done anything there since his start was really good and I didn't have any creatures besides 1 angler and 1 drs which got quickly outclassed by cavern into smasher and multiple oblivion sowers.

Sideboarding: I sideboarded differently this time than the day before. I knew they were only playing Endless one and Eldrazi Mimic, pretty much nothing else died to bolt (they had Grim Monolith instead to play on t1 or t2)! This made my burn significantly worse compared to the traditional Eldrazi matchup, but I realized that at the same time they were leaving themselves open to Cabal Therapy getting their stuff (and they were pretty predictable: t2 TKS, t3 Smasher or Oblivion Sower given they only play sol lands).
So I sided in the full package of Cabal Therapies and cut 2 FoW (in game 3 I would realize my mistake and bring them back in siding out 2 bolts).
The correct sideboarding I think might be: -4 Stifle, 2 Bolt, Pierce, + Covenant, 2 decay, grudge, 3 therapy

G2: I have a hand of Delver, Yp, Daze, Grudge, Fetch and Wasteland. This hand seems rather insane and I lead with Delver. My opponent plays a t1 Chalice and I grin. Delver doesn't flip (fetchland) and I play a t2 YP with the swamp fetchland thanks to Urborg. This gave me the opportunity to crack my fetchland on my next upkeep as I only saw another land. My opponent didn't play anything and passed the turn, eot I grudged the Chalice.
I wasted his Eldrazi temple and swung for a big tempo hit he couldn't recoup from.

G3: My 7 is FoW and a bunch of stuff, but no land besides Wasteland. I might be desperate, but not THAT desperate. I mull to 6 followin my opponent's example. He keeps, I get a hand with a bunch of lands and DRS, the worst creature in this matchup. Ouff! Mull to 5 it is! I get again a non-lander, but at least 2 YP and a Delver (also Therapy and I think DRS).
My scry reveals another Delver. Sorry, you have to go.
My opponent leads on Cavern of Souls and passes. I draw a Volcanic. YES! I play out my Delver and pass back.
The Eldrazi player plays a basic Wastes and Chalice for 1. Ouch. Hm, this is gonna be tough, but I feel safe with a potentially flipped Delver and 2 YP that can create tokens even if the spells themselves get countered.
Delver reveals a flooded strand. Hm, this might be even better than a flipped delver. I play my YP, attack for 1 and pass.
My opponent doesn't play a land but an Eldrazi Mimic.
My delver trigger only sees another delver and I swing with both creatures, fearing what the opponent might draw. He trades with the YP.
Next turn he just passes the turn. There's hope! I flip my Delver with a FoW (which is live due to Delver in hand) and land another YP. The next turns I continue attacking in the air and make a token with Cabal Therapy. I force a Jitte and trade my YP for Mimic after having created a third token with a Daze on my own DRS.
He brings down a TKS, taking my last card: A useless Delver. I have Delver and 3 tokens left while my opponent is at 5 life, has 0 mana open and only a TKS on the board. The only card I could lose to is Gutshot but even that's not possible due to Chalice (I don't think he had Urborg for a hypothetical Slaughter Pack). I let out a big sigh of relieve, I don't know if I even breathed during the match.

I can't believe my luck as I emerge with a 5-0 in my second league! I certainly made mistakes (2 because of modo and 1 because of magic, but if I reviewed the matches I'm sure more could be found) but am just super happy with my result.

Noob question: Will my name be potentially somewhere on mtgtop8.com now? Is a 5-0 (10-3) automatically enough?

Also who has played against the Big Eldrazi deck yet? What are your boarding decisions? Do you keep in bolts at all?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

My last point was about playing a Delver when you need a fast clock, not against a fast clock. My example was that it's sometimes correct to Waste your opponent's T1 land on your own T1 if you think they can kill you T2, like both Infect and Storm can. I agree that in both of those matchups, Delver isn't what you want to be doing either. The rest of your logic makes a lot of sense.

Grats on the finish! I'm seeing more Stifle builds going 5-0 in events, brb buying out TCGPlayer

[Agrippa91]

My last point was about playing a Delver when you need a fast clock, not against a fast clock. My example was that it's sometimes correct to Waste your opponent's T1 land on your own T1 if you think they can kill you T2, like both Infect and Storm can. I agree that in both of those matchups, Delver isn't what you want to be doing either. The rest of your logic makes a lot of sense.

Grats on the finish! I'm seeing more Stifle builds going 5-0 in events, brb buying out TCGPlayer

Can you give an example when you "need a fast clock"? I assumed it was when you're about to die/get locked out of the game so I figured Eldrazi, combo or counter/top lock of miracles.

[Naini]

Hey guys, fairly new to the Legacy scene and am looking for a little advice.

I've recently picked up the deck and absolutely love it - it's a blast to play. My list is fairly stock:

Lands (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Volcanic Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer
2x Gurmag Angler

Non-Creatures (28)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Forked Bolt
1x Spell Pierce

Sideboard (15)
2x Baleful Strix
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Pyroblast
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Dismember
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
2x Winter Orb

Just a couple questions:

1) My overall "what's good against what" isn't great as I've played so little of the format. Is there any particular popular matchup I'm overcompensating for at the expense of another with my maindeck/sideboard configuration?

2) Stifle. I don't have Stifles in my build, but I'm absolutely considering it, seeing as a lot of people on here seem to be keen on the card. I've noticed that those list are cutting Cabal Therapies for them, so in what matchups is one configuration better than the other? Or is it more of a variation in playstyle?

[Draggo]

Hey guys, fairly new to the Legacy scene and am looking for a little advice.

Just a couple questions:

1) My overall "what's good against what" isn't great as I've played so little of the format. Is there any particular popular matchup I'm overcompensating for at the expense of another with my maindeck/sideboard configuration?

2) Stifle. I don't have Stifles in my build, but I'm absolutely considering it, seeing as a lot of people on here seem to be keen on the card. I've noticed that those list are cutting Cabal Therapies for them, so in what matchups is one configuration better than the other? Or is it more of a variation in playstyle?

1: Grixis is pritty resilient vs alot of match ups, this is proberly the reaosn why it's the top tier Tempo deck for a while.
If you find yourself having a hard time vs any kind of match up you can just tweek a couple main or SB cards and turn those odds really easy while holding the deck together. The stock list is overal the most flexible I guess.

2: Using 4 Probes and 2 Therapys vs 2 Probes and 4 Stifle (for what I've seen people make the cut like this) is as much playstyle preference as well as meta-call. Stifles are better in tempo match-ups while Therapy are better in other situations.

[chaosjace]

I think I want to try force spike in this list, probably just one, I love spell Pierce but the times it doesn't hit the spell really sucks

[Whitefaces]

I think I want to try force spike in this list, probably just one, I love spell Pierce but the times it doesn't hit the spell really sucks

Since people are already playing around Daze vs Delver decks Force Spike it truly terrible here. I wouldn't advise it.

[Jaytron]

Sideboard (15)
2x Baleful Strix - Good vs big creatures
1x Grim Lavamancer - Good vs small creatures
1x Cabal Therapy - Good vs combo
1x Pyroblast - Good vs decks that play blue
1x Invasive Surgery - Good vs decks that cast sorceries
1x Ancient Grudge - Good vs decks that have troublesome artifacts
1x Dismember - Good vs big creatures
2x Surgical Extraction - Good vs graveyard decks
2x Painful Truths - Good vs grindy decks
1x Pithing Needle - Good vs Planeswalkers and top
2x Winter Orb - Good vs mana intensive decks

Just a couple questions:

1) My overall "what's good against what" isn't great as I've played so little of the format. Is there any particular popular matchup I'm overcompensating for at the expense of another with my maindeck/sideboard configuration?

2) Stifle. I don't have Stifles in my build, but I'm absolutely considering it, seeing as a lot of people on here seem to be keen on the card. I've noticed that those list are cutting Cabal Therapies for them, so in what matchups is one configuration better than the other? Or is it more of a variation in playstyle?

I tried to do a quick summary of your sb cards for you.

Cabal vs Stifle is a playstyle call. Stifle is more tempo, cabal is grindier.


Also, Agrippa91, grats on your 5-0!

[Hrothgar]

@ Agrippa91: very good results Congrats!!!
I've seen your name in mtgtop8 :cool:
Your Stilfe's list is solid and, after months of testing, you know how to play.
I like the Terminate in your main deck but i don't like Grim Lavamancer in your side, can i ask you why Grim Lavamancer and no other card?
How to improve our matchup vs Grixis and Death & Taxes in your thoughts?
You side-in Abrupt vs Eldrazi i suppose..

[Agrippa91]

@ Agrippa91: very good results Congrats!!!
I've seen your name in mtgtop8 :cool:
Your Stilfe's list is solid and, after months of testing, you know how to play.
I like the Terminate in your main deck but i don't like Grim Lavamancer in your side, can i ask you why Grim Lavamancer and no other card?
How to improve our matchup vs Grixis and Death & Taxes in your thoughts?
You side-in Abrupt vs Eldrazi i suppose..

Yeah, I saw it finally 2 days after my finish :laugh:

I have Grim Lavamancer in there pretty much against every creature deck there is, including Delver decks (not RUG and UWR though). I keep it in because there's quite a lot of white stompy-type decks around that play Thalias, so it seems better than just another Forked Bolt. Note also that with Sanctum Prelate naming 1 we can still play Grim Lavamancer (Revokers blindly will name DRS).
It's also just solid against something like Shardless BUG and other "value" decks.
I can see people playing another Forked Bolt instead, but I wouldn't play a Dread of Night or Darkblast instead because I already cut my 5th bolt for terminate and I want to have as many answers to DRS as possible since that's a very potent card against me (often times shutting off Stifle, Wasteland and Daze).

I bring in Abrupt Decay vs. Chalice decks, yes. I really like having 3 answers to Chalice postboard because I can draw into it naturally. It's nearly impossible for them to shut me off DRS AND Tropical so that's rather safe. It's also nice that it hits Endless One.

Against D&T it's a bit harder, but the card is worth it imo (especially because it kills Jitte which crushes this deck. Also nice against Sanctum Prelate naming 1)
The mistake I made earlier with this card was saving it. Very often you just want to play tempo and answering a threat on curve can be more important than being prepared for every possible scenario. With this board you have a lot of redundancy anyways (multiple answers to big creatures, artifacts and goyfs unlike other sbs that play e.g. Baleful Strix).

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I went 0-3 last night with the Stifle build, a combination of bad matchups (R1 1-2 against Eldrazi, R2 0-2 against RUG Lands) and probably bad boarding decisions on my part. But my R1 opponent called you out by name, Agrippa! You're basically famous now!

Curious about the Shardless matchup, which I went 1-2 against but it was very close: I found myself boarding out almost all of my counterspells, and bringing in all the additional removal, plus Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle (for Liliana). Does that sound right?

[ZEROorDIE]

do you guys have some pointers for the mana less Dredge match up? I don't see the deck very often but lately there's been a few at my local weekly event. just not sure the best way to attack the strategy, especially now that they have prized amalgam.

also I guess it's time to retune my SB. Dredge and D&T are now like 50% of the meta.

also best SB answers to TNN?

thanks

[Jaytron]

I went 0-3 last night with the Stifle build, a combination of bad matchups (R1 1-2 against Eldrazi, R2 0-2 against RUG Lands) and probably bad boarding decisions on my part. But my R1 opponent called you out by name, Agrippa! You're basically famous now!

Curious about the Shardless matchup, which I went 1-2 against but it was very close: I found myself boarding out almost all of my counterspells, and bringing in all the additional removal, plus Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle (for Liliana). Does that sound right?

I was your R1 opponent :P

Agrippa and I stalk each other on here and twitch watching coverage :x

I think 1 or 2 forces on the draw is ok vs Shardless.. There are some things that you really can't let resolve if you can help it.


do you guys have some pointers for the mana less Dredge match up? I don't see the deck very often but lately there's been a few at my local weekly event. just not sure the best way to attack the strategy, especially now that they have prized amalgam.

also I guess it's time to retune my SB. Dredge and D&T are now like 50% of the meta.

also best SB answers to TNN?

thanks

Manaless dredge? Just keep in all your countermagic, play DRS and surgical right?

SB Answers to TNN? I don't think there are much unless you want to run a marsh casualties or something. Don't let it resolve ;)

[Draggo]

I've always favored the Shardless match up (Stifles main deck myself).
Basicly hate on the mana or Stifle the Ancestral Vision/Shardless Agent and they are left with almost nothing to fight you.
Cut FoW and add removal/Pyrolast from the side. You can cut Probes for more impact spells too or just keep them to create fast tokens with Pyromancer.
If there is a lot of BUG around I reccomand adding 1 or 2 Mizzium Skin in the board for both Decay and sweepers.

For Manaless you should let them start if possible so you draw an extra card (since they don't do anything turn 1) and keep all counters there. Drop Shaman ASAP with a trop and remove the Ichorid and Prized Amalgam first (or the dredgers if you can keep up, but this is not the case most of the time).
Surgical on triggered Narcomoeba can also be a thing to keep creatures from entering the field.
Don't forget you can bolt one of your creatures/tokens to get rid of Bridges.
Or just drop Cage and watch them scoop.

Edit:
Also I don't really think you need a SB awnser to TNN (apart from the Pyroblasts) at the moment. You can run around it or backswing with the stocks list.

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!
Thanks for the congratulations. I'm currently moving so I don't have much time to play, but I'm always glad to give some advice.


I went 0-3 last night with the Stifle build, a combination of bad matchups (R1 1-2 against Eldrazi, R2 0-2 against RUG Lands) and probably bad boarding decisions on my part. But my R1 opponent called you out by name, Agrippa! You're basically famous now!

Curious about the Shardless matchup, which I went 1-2 against but it was very close: I found myself boarding out almost all of my counterspells, and bringing in all the additional removal, plus Pyroblast, Ancient Grudge, and Pithing Needle (for Liliana). Does that sound right?

Lol I don't know about the "famous" part, but yeah I know Jaytron from various Legacy twitch chats.

I think you board partly wrong vs. Shardless:
- Pyroblast is ok against them (though I don't like more than 1 tbh because you already have 4 stifles to stop ancestral visions). I wouldn't necessarily want more than 1. Before getting a second I'd rather keep an additional FoW for Toxic Deluge or a big threat.
- Pithing Needle and Ancient Grudge are some very very narrow cards. You already have more than enough stuff to answer Strix and Agent and Pithing Needle is quite bad because:
1. when you play it out before Liliana resolves your opponent just doesn't play her and brainstorms her away, leaving you with card disadvantage. If he really wants to push it through he's gonna Decay the needle eot anyways and then play his lili.
2. when you play Needle after Liliana has resolved you already have sacrificed a creature (which can be game-losing if it was e.g. an Angler).
The main way to play around Planeswalkers really is Daze and Stifles (e.g. stifle the sac ability) mixed with YP-tokens. Planeswalkers really aren't that good against this build and I really wouldn't want a specific answer to them.

The way I board is bringing in Grim Lavamancer, Forked Bolt, Fire Covenant, 2 Decay, Surgery and Pyroblast, taking out all the Probes and Forces (you can leave in like 2 otd cutting some Dazes). Especially Daze is really good in this matchup because Shardless can't really afford to play around it all the time. They tap out pretty much every single turn to play the most game-changing thing and our task is to prevent their 2-3-4-mana investments by our own 0-1-2 mana responses, gaining tempo. Also we have slight card advantage via Grim Lavamancer, Fire Covenant and Young Pyromancer plus the fact that they have to play out all their lands while we can operate on 3 (if you play decay, 2 if you don't).


do you guys have some pointers for the mana less Dredge match up? I don't see the deck very often but lately there's been a few at my local weekly event. just not sure the best way to attack the strategy, especially now that they have prized amalgam.

also I guess it's time to retune my SB. Dredge and D&T are now like 50% of the meta.

also best SB answers to TNN?

thanks

Dredge is hated out rather easily tbh, just put in 2-3 Surgical Extractions in the sb (though I'd say 2 should be enough). For D&T I like Dread of Night or Grim Lavamancer (the last one especially when they're heavy on Sanctum Prelates).
I don't like Stifle vs. D&T, you should cut them for Therapies (they reveal cards to you with Stoneforge and Recruiter). Removal like Grim Lavamancer and Forked Bolt are key in this matchup, but so are Pithing Needles imo (Mom, Rishadan Port, Vial, Equipment).

The best answer to TNN are really Pyroblast and Daze, often times it's also not that big of a threat when you have a board that can race it. The nasty things with TNN really are the equipments, but once you get rid of them post-sb it should be not that much of a problem.
When you lose to cards like that ask yourself if you'd lost to any big spell they could have (Lingering Souls? Mentor? Jace? Angler? Goyf?). Chances are you already were behind because you e.g. couldn't prevent them from getting enough mana and not threaten them with creatures early on. Losing to TNN is really just the nail in the coffin, but not the specific reason you lost there. I lost to TNN a fair share myself, but almost never when I was ahead in the game.

[FCowper]

Hi - I was wondering if anyone had opinions on the RW painter match up...

I've not played vs it much and I got trashed by it recently (I know, testing vs it will help me get better, but multiple early blood moons can be such a beating even with DRS)

My list:

4 DRS
4 Delver
3 YP
2 Angler
1 TNN

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bolt
4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember

4 Strand
4 Delta
3 Volc
2 Sea
1 Trop
4 Wasteland

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
2 Baleful Strix
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire Covenant
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

[ZEROorDIE]

Hi guys!

Dredge is hated out rather easily tbh, just put in 2-3 Surgical Extractions in the sb (though I'd say 2 should be enough). For D&T I like Dread of Night or Grim Lavamancer (the last one especially when they're heavy on Sanctum Prelates).
I don't like Stifle vs. D&T, you should cut them for Therapies (they reveal cards to you with Stoneforge and Recruiter). Removal like Grim Lavamancer and Forked Bolt are key in this matchup, but so are Pithing Needles imo (Mom, Rishadan Port, Vial, Equipment).

The best answer to TNN are really Pyroblast and Daze, often times it's also not that big of a threat when you have a board that can race it. The nasty things with TNN really are the equipments, but once you get rid of them post-sb it should be not that much of a problem.
When you lose to cards like that ask yourself if you'd lost to any big spell they could have (Lingering Souls? Mentor? Jace? Angler? Goyf?). Chances are you already were behind because you e.g. couldn't prevent them from getting enough mana and not threaten them with creatures early on. Losing to TNN is really just the nail in the coffin, but not the specific reason you lost there. I lost to TNN a fair share myself, but almost never when I was ahead in the game.

thanks for the thorough response, and also everyone else for their responses. I believe I was just approaching the match ups wrong last week and had a bit of a bad luck streak (dredge guy had me t2 both games and boarded wrong against bant blade knowing the guy is usually on maverick)

I am going to tune up my SB based on the way my local meta has changed and hopefully can do a bit better than 2-2 next week.

cheers

[Agrippa91]

@FCowper:
I find the matchup rather favorable tbh. Whenever you're otd though you really should try to mulligan to a FoW if your hand isn't completely insane. It's the only way we can lose right at the start. Otd cabal therapy and daze help a lot against the enchantment. Whenever possible you should just let a magus of the moon resolve and draw for a bolt (e.g. when you already have a board presence and a fow in hand).

From your sideboard I like:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

cards you might consider but I don't like are:

Pyroblast: If he's smart he won't name blue in match 2 and 3 with his painter servant. This would just allow you to pitch every card from your hand to FoW and use your own pyroblasts. Right now he already has a vast amount of targets with his pyroblasts, most importantly Delver, FoW and other countermagic.

Surgical Extraction: This is way too cute most of the time. You lose to so many things from this deck that you would really rather have a fast clock or not-so-narrow countermagic than a surgical that gives you card disadvantage. If you manage to get one of his combo pieces (requiring you to kill/discard it first) he still can just blood moon you or kill you with damage.

Flusterstorm: It's not worth just countering the pyroblasts, you just look stupid when he goes for blood moon or the combo.

Forked Bolt: Doesn't kill Painter Servant which is almost the only target for our bolts.

Fire Covenant: Getting 2 cards for this is rather rare and it can be really clunky. Not advisable.

In this matchup I like cutting Gurmag Angler. Dismember is also worse than your other removal. I would propably just cut down to 3 probes and leave the 3rd therapy in the sb, bringing in 2 needles, decay and grudge. With therapies most of the time you're either just blind naming blood moon (one of the few scary card) or you know what he's got from probes and imperial recruiter.

[Hrothgar]

In my experience, in Dredge matchup the best cards are:

- Deathrite Shaman (with Tropical for the Dredge creature)
- Bolt on our creature for remove Bridge (on a Delver or Pyromancer preferably)
- Surgical Extraction (obv)

Other cards who sometimes we can find in maindeck/sideboard:

- Vendilion Clique
- Engineered Explosives
- Flusterstorm

[FCowper]

@FCowper:
I find the matchup rather favorable tbh. Whenever you're otd though you really should try to mulligan to a FoW if your hand isn't completely insane. It's the only way we can lose right at the start. Otd cabal therapy and daze help a lot against the enchantment. Whenever possible you should just let a magus of the moon resolve and draw for a bolt (e.g. when you already have a board presence and a fow in hand).

From your sideboard I like:

2 Pithing Needle
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

cards you might consider but I don't like are:

Pyroblast: If he's smart he won't name blue in match 2 and 3 with his painter servant. This would just allow you to pitch every card from your hand to FoW and use your own pyroblasts. Right now he already has a vast amount of targets with his pyroblasts, most importantly Delver, FoW and other countermagic.

Surgical Extraction: This is way too cute most of the time. You lose to so many things from this deck that you would really rather have a fast clock or not-so-narrow countermagic than a surgical that gives you card disadvantage. If you manage to get one of his combo pieces (requiring you to kill/discard it first) he still can just blood moon you or kill you with damage.

Flusterstorm: It's not worth just countering the pyroblasts, you just look stupid when he goes for blood moon or the combo.

Forked Bolt: Doesn't kill Painter Servant which is almost the only target for our bolts.

Fire Covenant: Getting 2 cards for this is rather rare and it can be really clunky. Not advisable.

In this matchup I like cutting Gurmag Angler. Dismember is also worse than your other removal. I would propably just cut down to 3 probes and leave the 3rd therapy in the sb, bringing in 2 needles, decay and grudge. With therapies most of the time you're either just blind naming blood moon (one of the few scary card) or you know what he's got from probes and imperial recruiter.

Thanks, I'll bear this in mind going forward. :)

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!

After having played a fair amount online this past month (not many leagues, I'm a poor student) I've attuned my sb a bit.
Most importantly Grim Lavamancer and Fire Covenant are gone now. I experienced that these cards are just insane in matchups where I already feel highly favorable (elves, shardless) while being just a tad too slow/clunky against the big eldrazi monsters, d&t and fellow delver players.

I experienced that especially otd I'm often in a very controlling role, trying to stop the onslaught. Therefore I've employed 2 Baleful Strixes now that helped me a lot so far. Unlike Grim Lavamancer and Fire Covenant I don't bring them in against something like Elves, but they're equally good against Shardless and better against Eldrazi and Delver so I feel like they're worth it.

So here's my current list:

creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

instants and sorceries (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt


lands (18)
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland

sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix

I've switched Terminate to the sb again for Forked Bolt which is in the mb again. I just feel like preboard I have enough answers to big stuff in form of 4 FoWs and Anglers, I found myself wanting a F-Bolt isntead though a decent amount of time, mostly against opposing DRSs.

I must say that playing online has really helped my game against Miracles. I just feel really comfortable against it which certainly has to do with the fact that I have plenty of answers to terminus (4 stifle, surgery, fluster) and the sdt-cb-lock (2 needles, 2 decay, pyroblast).
This allows me to stifle (hehe) their approach in the early game while still being able to grind them out later when they hit land drops, but I operate with 3-4 lands max. I prevent them from hardcasting the termini that are stranded in their hand by keeping in 2 dazes and 2 wastelands while a 1-of cabal therapy could be top-decked at any point to rip them out of the hand forever.

I also came to realize that Abrupt Decay is not the way to go against D&T when in this matchup I really want to board out my stifles. :tongue:
Old&new thalia tax my mana hard there, but I found Dazes and therapies to be a good combination here since they're rather clunky with all their 2-3-drops.
I really like decay against random decks though that don't play Wastelands (burn, elves, ur-delver, ug cloudpost) or just goyf-decks that aren't delver.

[chaosjace]

I just sleeved this up for a small event, with 4 stifle main.
Round 1 against D&T draw
Game one I drop delver turn one with daze back up, counter mother and next turn I stifle wasteland and force a vial, delver goes the distance
Game 2 I lose to a board of creatures
Game 3 I keep a hand with dread of night and fire covenant, windmill slam dread of night, the game goes fine but I go to time, opponent had a meek stone so I wasn't concerned about flipping delver, second to last turn I am in a hurry and fail to flip delver for a draw.

Round 2 Belcher
Game 1 Lose to a board full of tokens turn 2
Game 2 lose to s board full of tokens on turn 2
I think I want mind break trap for this meta, I brainstormed into a fluster storm but i had tapped out, MBT would have saved me.

Round 3 storm
Win the first game by pinging him down too low to go off
Game 2 i get hit with every discard spell ever
Game 3 I almost win, he ad nauseum down to 1 life, I have no bolt and he top decks lions eye diamond for the win from a ponder.

Then I left to get some sleep

It was my first time with the deck, i really like the deck, I love stifle, I am considering 4 MD therapy instead of two, I have the other 2 SB, but I am not sure where I stand on that yet, I sided out young pyro in every game and he never really did anything, (mostly because storm) but even against D&T he was overkill or shuffled away

[Agrippa91]

Was it a typo or did you actuallly say you want 4 therapies in the MB? I guess you meant SB.
The creatures to side out really are the Anglers because you often times can't get them out early enough, especially when holding up stuff (combo) or when your stuff becomes exiled or put on the bottom of your library (Miracles). Sometimes (especially when they have a superior linear strategy and and next to no removal) you side out your Anglers to have more answers. Examples are Infect or Cloudpost. Often times in this scenario you'r siding in your therapies then though, so having the YPs is essential here (otherwise the therapies might as well be Thoughtseizes).

I like the Flusterstorm and Surgery more against combo than the 4th therapy because unlike therapy the blue cards are excellent against Miracles. Flusterstorm is also really nice against Delver while Surgery is nice against GSZ decks, lands etc. where I wouldn't necessarily want the therapies, at least not 4.
With Pyroblasts and Surgicals I'm on the "below average" count, too. My logic is that the first one is really good in many matchups (BUG, ANT, Delver), but the second one can be really weird, especially when you're just stuck in hand with them. My reasoning with Surgical is that I feel pretty comfortable against lands, storm, reanimator and dredge as it is, no need for a second copy that I'll rarely use, especially online.

And with 7 cards against your "average" (storm) combo deck (Fluster, Surgery, Pyroblast, Surgical, 3 therapies) and 7 cards to take out (5 bolts, 2 anglers) there's not really need to have an additional one in the sb. You might consider cutting Wasteland or Daze but truth is that due to the stifle the opponent can't just fetch all basics and there's nothing you can do.
That said I do side out 2 Wastelands against S&T because in addition to the above mentioned cards I bring in the 2 Pithing Needles. I just don't know what else to cut (Tropical maybe? I really never want this card in this matchup!)

To the YP: They're definitely clunky, especially when you play stifle. It's the reason I only play 3 of them (also 13 creatures is plenty in delver imo) because most of the time you want to hold open a mana when you play him.
That said He's an MVP in certain matchups:

Eldrazi/MUD: I've won multiple games against resolves Chalices where a Delver swung (or the were just got wasteland/dazed) while I filled the ground with elementals (from countered spells). Especially because they have no removal this guy is great in these BIG matchups.

Miracles: It's a card that when the game advances and you're not locked out doesn't trade for less than a Terminus (mentor is a problem though, no idea why he's not played more).

Shardless: Great for two reasons, one being the fact that it's our "card advantage" engine that screw up their 1-for-1 plan, two because it trades well for Baleful Strix which is the go-to-answer for creature decks these days (especially with that many Eldrazi).

Combo: As a rule of thumb never tap out with YP when playing this stifle version, you just have way too many cards that you might want to cast in response to theirs (fluster, pyroblast, surgery, stifle, brainstorm). Of course there're exceptions, e.g. when you're on the play and you have Daze (more against S&T than Storm), when you have a weak hand or when you have a FoW+blue and are quite certain they can't beat that for now. That said YP is really a fast clock that is insane with therapies (who would've guessed?).
Whenever they try to go off it's a do or die situation more often than not because your fighting generally creates enough tokens to increase the clock significantly (e.g. good against S&T that just plays out their stuff every turn waiting for it to get countered).

[btm10]

Shardless: Great for two reasons, one being the fact that it's our "card advantage" engine that screw up their 1-for-1 plan, two because it trades well for Baleful Strix which is the go-to-answer for creature decks these days (especially with that many Eldrazi).



This is an interesting outlook. I've always consider the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Stifle versions, and as a Shardless player I'm definitely more afraid (on average) of getting Stifled by a turn 1 Delver draw than a turn 2 Pyromancer draw. I think Shardless is pretty favored either way, but it's worth seeing someone else's view on it. Also, while Pyromancer is good against Baleful Strix, he's much less impressive against Shardless Agent.

[Athrenax]

Hey guys! I'm new here, and have been looking to get into Grixis in legacy. I am currently a Reanimator player, but it is poorly positioned in my local meta, so I want to try something that is more competitive, and have always been a fan of Grixis (having previously played Grixis Delver and Grixis Control in modern). I have almost everything I need for the deck - except Volcanic Islands (and perhaps some sideboard cards, depending on the list). I understand that I of course need the Volcs for an ideal list, and do plan to get them over time if I enjoy the deck, but I won't be able to get any right away.

So my questions is this: Is it possible to play the deck at FNM-level without them, or are the alternatives so bad as to make the entire deck unplayable? The lands I currently have access to that are of relevance here:
Duals:
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Bayou

Shocks:
4x of all Grixis shocks

Fetches:
4x of all Grixis fetches
1x Verdant Catacombs

Are there perhaps some Grixis variants I could play with these lands available, while others are unplayable? Could I e.g. substitute Steam Vents for Volcs and go lighter on Daze?

[Agrippa91]

@btm10

I've always consider the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Stifle versions
What do you mean? Isn't both the same?

@Athrenax:
Having all Grixis fetches helps a lot! You can play the Ed Demicco mana base which switches the 3rd Volcanic for a Badlands. Personally I've never considered this version because it requires Scalding Tarns which I don't want to buy, but it can definitely be very useful to have a 3rd black source!
You could play the Bayou you over the Tropical if you play 3 Volcanics, but you really don't want more than 1 nonblue dual so having bayou and badlands is a no-go in such a blue heavy deck.
With your lands I'd go with:
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
2 Steam Vents

Here's Ed Demicco's list for the reference (he's pretty much the counterpart to the Noah Walker list):
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/469543#online
It's propably not surprising that I would rather recommend my list though :tongue:
I just think that in many matchups (Eldrazi, Miracles, BUG, Grixis) Gurmag Angler is really, really good, imo there's no reason to play them in the sideboard.
Grim Lavamancer is a weird one and I've shifted away from it (played one in the sb a long time). But it not only makes you more succeptible to mini-wraths, but is also a fairly poor answer to DRS (though it looks great on paper). Thing is that if you play him before they'll likely not play their shaman while when you play him afterwards they'll untap with so much mana it's very likely they'll find a removal for it or just generally play bigger things than you'd like given your stifle/wasteland/daze angle of attack.

[btm10]

@btm10

What do you mean? Isn't both the same?


That should be "always considered the MD Stifle versions of Grixis worse Pyromancer decks than the Therapy versions..." For what it's worth I've also had more success with the Therapy versions of Grixis myself. RUG just seems to play the all-in mana denial game so much better than Grixis, in large part because there aren't a ton of great 1-mana answers to Nimble Mongoose the way there are to a Pyromancer.

[Kelv]

Hey everyone. I'm looking into running Grixis delver at an event next weekend (As the local metagame is extremely combo-heavy and unfavorable towards my usual decks. And wanting to run different decks continually is a bad habit of mine). and, seeing the discussion earlier about manabase, I just wanted to ask what the most 'optimal' manabase I can run with what I have is. The issue is that I'm missing the third volc, and I don't have the tarns for the Demicco manabase that substitutes it for badlands. I'm looking at running a cabal therapy list, if that matters.

I have other blue fetches, a third sea, and other non-volc duals in these color combinations (Badlands, Bayou, Taiga, extra trop) on the off chance the best substitution somewhere involves those.

[Agrippa91]

The thing with badlands is that you really want to be able to fetch it with all your 8 fetches, so 4 tarn 4 delta are the only options here because you need blue for the tropical island. If I were you I'd honestly just run a steam vents instead of the third volc. It's only worse when you directly draw the steam vents, there's really only a minimal chance you have to shock yourself honestly. Just don't get in the habit of fetching it end of turn to get it untapped just so you can thin your deck and not take 2 damage. You should only fetch it in this case when you'd want to fetch in your upkeep anyways (mostly because you don't want cards from ponder or brainstorm).

[DanGomba]

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

[Agrippa91]

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

The matchups where you really want the Tropical in g1 (otherwise it's like auto-concede) are basically all reanimator variants (tin-fins, ub, br), all dredge variants (manaless and "normal"), Burn, but I also use them frequently against BUG (shrinking Goyf by taking out their artifact creatures) and UR Delver (they hit hard).

I think that for the very specific thing that it does it's just a very efficient 1-of in the deck. I mean heck, most of the time you just cast blue spells of it anyways, so who cares.

If you want the additional black mana though I'd consider going down a blue instead. You can either cut Tropical for Bayou (with misty and delta) or the 3rd Volcanic for Badlands (with tarn and delta). Most Grixis players go down the first route, but having a single land for all 2 DRS activations (so you can choose whatever you want at the eot) seems sweet, too.

[Draggo]

What is everyone's thoughts on running the Trop in the Sideboard? I run a pretty stock list (2 Cabal Therapy, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Spell Pierce as the flex slots), and I have noticed I am usually wishing I had an extra black source for a black spell and DRS activation in the same turn (not to mention vs wasteland decks). I also notice I almost never use the green for DRS unless it is a very specific match like Burn or Reanimator. My thoughts are running 3 volcs and 3 seas, with the trop in the SB for DRS and the Ancient Grudge flashback.

What do you guys think? Why haven't I seen this tried?

Try 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 2 Volcanic, 1 Trop, 1 Badlands, 4 Wasteland as manabase.
It'll fix your problem.
The only reason not to do this is the one hand every 200 games where you have the single Badlands in your starter hand with a card combination you're not willing to keep.

[Tiago]

Hi fellas!

I played a 30 players legacy tournment last sunday, got 5th place with Grixis.

Check mylist> http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21422&iddeck=164300

1x1 Infect
0x2 Death and Taxes
2x0 Burn
2x0 Goblins
2x0 BANT Deathblade
2x0 UW Blade
----------------------
4V-1L-1D

[Agrippa91]

care to elaborate on the D&T matches? Was it a new version with heretic thalia, recruiter and prelate? Did Prelate do anything in the match? How bad was Strix postboard (assuming you brought it in)?

[chaosjace]

That's strange, I wiped the floor with the new D&T with the stifle build, only lost because I missed a delver flip in the last turn, had the game gone on I had just resolved a gurmag they had no creatures, and no swords left.

[Whitefaces]

That's strange, I wiped the floor with the new D&T with the stifle build, only lost because I missed a delver flip in the last turn, had the game gone on I had just resolved a gurmag they had no creatures, and no swords left.

This is a sample size of one match? I think DnT is favoured in the matchup overall, especially if you're running Stifle.

[Tiago]

care to elaborate on the D&T matches? Was it a new version with heretic thalia, recruiter and prelate? Did Prelate do anything in the match? How bad was Strix postboard (assuming you brought it in)?

I played against DaT twice with Grixis (I normally play with canadian). I won one match and lost another.

You can check the list of my opponent in this link (death and taxes list http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21422&iddeck=164299)

Prelate bother me in G1. My opponent cast it for 1 and I wasted a dismember on it. Two observations. My hands were very poor in both games and I mulligan to 6 in G2. Also, he started with land/aether vial both games in t1.

I brought strix, but they did not show their faces in the game but I am really satisfied with the performance of strix in general.

I did not use 2 cards of my sideboard, 2 surgical, but just for pairings reasons, it is an important card.

About using sitfle... I think if you want to use stife you need to play with RUG delver, it fits better than grixis, just my opinion. I prefer the version with therapy main deck, is a powerfull card with great sinergy.

I think DaT is unfavorable to us (of course, considering a good pilot). I am considering put dread of night (one copy) in SB. What do you think?

[VERTUK]

I played against DaT twice with Grixis (I normally play with canadian). I won one match and lost another.

You can check the list of my opponent in this link (death and taxes list http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21422&iddeck=164299)

Prelate bother me in G1. My opponent cast it for 1 and I wasted a dismember on it. Two observations. My hands were very poor in both games and I mulligan to 6 in G2. Also, he started with land/aether vial both games in t1.

I brought strix, but they did not show their faces in the game but I am really satisfied with the performance of strix in general.

I did not use 2 cards of my sideboard, 2 surgical, but just for pairings reasons, it is an important card.

About using sitfle... I think if you want to use stife you need to play with RUG delver, it fits better than grixis, just my opinion. I prefer the version with therapy main deck, is a powerfull card with great sinergy.

I think DaT is unfavorable to us (of course, considering a good pilot). I am considering put dread of night (one copy) in SB. What do you think?

About strixes: They are just ok vs DnT. They dont have big monsters except mirran crusader (unblockable by strix) and first strike dudes hurt too, so probably they dont worth to be included in games 2 and 3.

About dread of night: Too narrow, only recomended if you expect a lot of DnT or Monastery Mentor decks.

I feel DnT is a bad but winnable matchup (40-60%?)

[Tiago]

About strixes: They are just ok vs DnT. They dont have big monsters except mirran crusader (unblockable by strix) and first strike dudes hurt too, so probably they dont worth to be included in games 2 and 3.

About dread of night: Too narrow, only recomended if you expect a lot of DnT or Monastery Mentor decks.

I feel DnT is a bad but winnable matchup (40-60%?)

Based on my list, how would you made the side in/out? Against DaT..

[Agrippa91]

Strixes: I feel like they'll stall the game against flyers a bit perhaps, how about the fact that they're additional Therapy fodder? I definitely bring in all my Therapies against D&T. They're great against Stoneforge and Recruiter even if you don't have synergies going on...

[Darkness]

Strixes: I feel like they'll stall the game against flyers a bit perhaps, how about the fact that they're additional Therapy fodder? I definitely bring in all my Therapies against D&T. They're great against Stoneforge and Recruiter even if you don't have synergies going on...

I agree with agrippa, the Therapies have been clutch with all the known information you end up discovering via SFM or Recruiter. To be honest, a good Grixis Player should be able to predict what their best card vs. your board blindly. Also, I have been using Lavamancer against Death and Taxes and has been incredible. Yea it folds to rest in piece but I'd rather bring that in against them and use Lavamancer against Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, Mirror, and Dark Maverick than the dark blast. If the lavamancer sticks around he does work and also helps work out our mana better from being locked via opposing wastelands or ports as you will have and want more volcanics in the matchup due to need for various bolts. At worst he eats a swords or path that another threat would eat. I do agreed that DnT Matchup is an uphill one but with matchup experience it's only 55:45 at worst.

Here's my list and plan against DnT

60

4 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Delver of Secrets
3 - Young Pyromancer
2 - Gurmag Angler
1 - Vendilion Clique

4 - Brainstorm
4 - Ponder
4 - Gitaxian Probe
4 - Lightning Bolt
4 - Daze
4 - Force of Will
2 - Cabal Therapy
1 - Dismember
1 - Spell Pierce

4 - Flooded Strand
4 - Polluted Delta
4 - Wasteland
3 - Volcanic Island
2 - Underground Sea
1 - Tropical Island

SB

1 - Ancient Grudge
2 - Baleful Strix
1 - Cabal Therapy
1 - Flusterstorm
1 - Forked Bolt
1 - Grim Lavamancer
1 - Painful Truths
1 - Pithing Needle
1 - Pyroblast
1 - Sulfuric Vortex
2 - Surgical Extraction
2 - Winter Orb


- 1 Spell Pierce - Doesn't Effect Battlefield
- 4 Daze - Bad against Cavern, Vial, late game (If they play big 4 mana spells like cataclysm or Gideon, I may at 2 on play and cut another FoW or Angler, unless I see them playing around Daze in previous match)
- 1 Force of Will - Bad against Cavern Vile

+1 Ancient Grudge - Kills Vial and equipment
+1 Cabal Therapy - Helps tame SFM and recruiter and hit pessy cards.
+1 Forked Bolt - Effects battlefield if MoM is not around
+1 Lavamancer - Effects battlefield greatly if RiP nor spot removal occurs
+1 Painful Truths - Good source of card advantage but hard to cast due to ports, I consider taking out on draw for force depending on their play style, how aggressive they are to wasteland and or port vs establishing or stabilizing their board
+1 Pithing Needle - Great way to stop equipment, mom, port, wasteland, vial, SFM.

I think you'r best SB cards are Lavamancer and Needle if they can stay. Though Therapies are not always the nuts they are better than the counter magic Delver Decks have access too.

[Tiago]

I agree with agrippa, the Therapies have been clutch with all the known information you end up discovering via SFM or Recruiter. To be honest, a good Grixis Player should be able to predict what their best card vs. your board blindly. Also, I have been using Lavamancer against Death and Taxes and has been incredible. Yea it folds to rest in piece but I'd rather bring that in against them and use Lavamancer against Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, Mirror, and Dark Maverick than the dark blast. If the lavamancer sticks around he does work and also helps work out our mana better from being locked via opposing wastelands or ports as you will have and want more volcanics in the matchup due to need for various bolts. At worst he eats a swords or path that another threat would eat. I do agreed that DnT Matchup is an uphill one but with matchup experience it's only 55:45 at worst.

Here's my list and plan against DnT

60

4 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Delver of Secrets
3 - Young Pyromancer
2 - Gurmag Angler
1 - Vendilion Clique

4 - Brainstorm
4 - Ponder
4 - Gitaxian Probe
4 - Lightning Bolt
4 - Daze
4 - Force of Will
2 - Cabal Therapy
1 - Dismember
1 - Spell Pierce

4 - Flooded Strand
4 - Polluted Delta
4 - Wasteland
3 - Volcanic Island
2 - Underground Sea
1 - Tropical Island

SB

1 - Ancient Grudge
2 - Baleful Strix
1 - Cabal Therapy
1 - Flusterstorm
1 - Forked Bolt
1 - Grim Lavamancer
1 - Painful Truths
1 - Pithing Needle
1 - Pyroblast
1 - Sulfuric Vortex
2 - Surgical Extraction
2 - Winter Orb


- 1 Spell Pierce - Doesn't Effect Battlefield
- 4 Daze - Bad against Cavern, Vial, late game (If they play big 4 mana spells like cataclysm or Gideon, I may at 2 on play and cut another FoW or Angler, unless I see them playing around Daze in previous match)
- 1 Force of Will - Bad against Cavern Vile

+1 Ancient Grudge - Kills Vial and equipment
+1 Cabal Therapy - Helps tame SFM and recruiter and hit pessy cards.
+1 Forked Bolt - Effects battlefield if MoM is not around
+1 Lavamancer - Effects battlefield greatly if RiP nor spot removal occurs
+1 Painful Truths - Good source of card advantage but hard to cast due to ports, I consider taking out on draw for force depending on their play style, how aggressive they are to wasteland and or port vs establishing or stabilizing their board
+1 Pithing Needle - Great way to stop equipment, mom, port, wasteland, vial, SFM.

I think you'r best SB cards are Lavamancer and Needle if they can stay. Though Therapies are not always the nuts they are better than the counter magic Delver Decks have access too.

I liked of your strategy and the ideia of using lavamancer, it is not so especific as dread of night, he can enters in anothers match ups. =)

I don't know if it happens with you, but when I took a lot of blue cards from MD to SB, like you do (4 daze, 1 pierce, 1 fow), I normally face problems like have 1 fow and no other blue card in my hand. =(

Last sunday, I bring

+1 Darkblast
+2 Strix
+1 explosives
+1 forked bolt
+1 ancient grudge
+1 cabal therpay
+1 vortex

and took off

-4 fow
-4 daze
-1 pierce

I guess I'll bring one lavamancer to SB, I really liked the idea.

What can I cut ? Here is my SB

2 Baleful Strix
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Painful Truths

[Luca Grease]

I've been playing DnT since Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was printed, and Grixis since the DTT days, so I feel like I've got reliable insight on this particular match-up.

Baleful Strix is really not that good against DnT, and should probably not be sided in. Most lists don't play Serra Avenger anymore, so it's only really good at blocking Flickerwisp (which will often generate value with its etb trigger anyway). Every other meaningful beater in the deck has either first strike or pro-black. On top of it, Sword of Fire and Ice will make it look silly. Besides, you should be the aggressor in this match-up.

Cabal Therapy is great, and more copies should be sided in. Other then the obvious applications against SFM and Recruiter of the Guard, DnT's curve has gotten higher with the printing of various new 3-drops, so they will often have cards in hand well into the mid game.

Abrupt Decays are tempting, but a bit too greedy against a deck playing one of the best mana denial packages in the format alongside Rest in Peace (which will blank Shamans). Sure, they are great when you get to use them, but far too often they'll be stranded in your hand. Still better than Baleful Strix though, and I can see the rationale behind risking it.

Personally, I've moved away from Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night after the emergence of the Eldrazi, since I don't feel I can afford such narrow sideboard cards anymore. Engineered Explosives, Kolaghan's Command (a bit costly, but amazing in most fair MUs), the extra Therapy, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, and tight play have been enough to make the MU only very slightly unfavorable (I actually have a pretty positive record against it on Cockatrice, but I very rarely find someone playing that deck proficiently).

On another note, I see pretty much every list runs a singleton Dismember as the fifth removal of choice: am I the only one running a Murderous Cut instead? I assume that card is mostly there because of Eldrazi, and that's not a match-up where you want to be paying 4 life, generally. Also, Dismember is a disaster against Burn whereas MC gets rid of an Eidolon cleanly. For the same reasons, I feel like it's better in Delver mirrors (particularly red variants). And it has won me a game of two against Reanimator, or gotten rid of a KoTR that was already out of Dismember range.
The awkward situation where you draw it together with both of your Gurmag Anglers does come up occasionally, and it is obviously worse against Rest in Peace, but for the most part, I think that its pros outweight these cons. I was curious about whether this card had already discussed and what the consensus was about it...

[Tiago]

I've been playing DnT since Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was printed, and Grixis since the DTT days, so I feel like I've got reliable insight on this particular match-up.

Baleful Strix is really not that good against DnT, and should probably not be sided in. Most lists don't play Serra Avenger anymore, so it's only really good at blocking Flickerwisp (which will often generate value with its etb trigger anyway). Every other meaningful beater in the deck has either first strike or pro-black. On top of it, Sword of Fire and Ice will make it look silly. Besides, you should be the aggressor in this match-up.

Cabal Therapy is great, and more copies should be sided in. Other then the obvious applications against SFM and Recruiter of the Guard, DnT's curve has gotten higher with the printing of various new 3-drops, so they will often have cards in hand well into the mid game.

Abrupt Decays are tempting, but a bit too greedy against a deck playing one of the best mana denial packages in the format alongside Rest in Peace (which will blank Shamans). Sure, they are great when you get to use them, but far too often they'll be stranded in your hand. Still better than Baleful Strix though, and I can see the rationale behind risking it.

Personally, I've moved away from Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night after the emergence of the Eldrazi, since I don't feel I can afford such narrow sideboard cards anymore. Engineered Explosives, Kolaghan's Command (a bit costly, but amazing in most fair MUs), the extra Therapy, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, and tight play have been enough to make the MU only very slightly unfavorable (I actually have a pretty positive record against it on Cockatrice, but I very rarely find someone playing that deck proficiently).

On another note, I see pretty much every list runs a singleton Dismember as the fifth removal of choice: am I the only one running a Murderous Cut instead? I assume that card is mostly there because of Eldrazi, and that's not a match-up where you want to be paying 4 life, generally. Also, Dismember is a disaster against Burn whereas MC gets rid of an Eidolon cleanly. For the same reasons, I feel like it's better in Delver mirrors (particularly red variants). And it has won me a game of two against Reanimator, or gotten rid of a KoTR that was already out of Dismember range.
The awkward situation where you draw it together with both of your Gurmag Anglers does come up occasionally, and it is obviously worse against Rest in Peace, but for the most part, I think that its pros outweight these cons. I was curious about whether this card had already discussed and what the consensus was about it...

I think dismember have fewer inconsistencies than murderous. Of course dismember is terrible against burn, but I guess is the only match that this card is horrible. Murderous Cut have problems with angler and Shaman either. There are another problem in this card throught my sight... INFECT. When you face this match, especially in G1, sometimes you must cast the removal as soon as possible, and you can easily die with cut in your hand. Other exemple. Opponent casts mother of rune in play.. Impossible cast cut in your t1. Dismember take your life, but it will be casted in the moment you want and need.

[Agrippa91]

Dismember vs. Murderous Cut:
My main dislike for dismember comes in the fact that it doesn't kill Goyf consistently actually. That said guys, just play terminate and be done with it :tongue:

Force of Will:
I also encountered the famous problem of having FoW in hand, but no blue cards to pitch to it. This can be a problem not only with the blue count, the general length of the matchup can also be a factor in the equation: Especially in grindy games (e.g. against Shardless) FoW seems great to counter a big card (Tarmogoyf, Deluge), but in the end you give up 2 cards and that's just not what you have when you're in top deck mode. rule of thumb is: When you lose matches with cards in hand you should have FoWs in your deck, when you lose with no cards in hand you shouldn't have them in your deck post-sideboard (don't remember who said that, I'm sure it was Einstein or Lincoln).

Baleful Strix:
When you look at it it stalls against flyers, cantrips (making it good for Therapy) and is a blue card, giving us more fodder if we should consider keeping in FoW.

Sadly I have really no chance at all to play this matchup: On mtgo it's non-existent and my playtest partner for paper magic frankly just isn't a very good d&t player and rather wants to play with his lands deck (you'd think he'd like porting me).

Currently I'm siding out
-4 Stifle
-4 FoW
-1 Spell Pierce
and bring in
+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Terminate
+2 Baleful Strix

I considered bringing in Decays instead of the Strixes, but think i'd rather have the extra body for flying defense and therapy. My blue count post-sideboard would be 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 3 probes, 4 daze, 4 delver, 2 strix = 21. That's decent and about as much as BUG Delver is running (which has known problems with its blue count for FoW).
I think even otd I'd rather have the Dazes than the forces though: There's really no t1-play I really want to spend 2 cards to FoW, I run 2 needles, 1 grudge and tons of bolts. I also remember from DTT days coming in situations where the opponent who leads with vial just has nothing left in hand after I therapy him thoroughly. It's like when D&T sides out vials against Jund because they're not so good at grinding (card disadvantage).
This of course sucks against RIP though. which is pretty much the only reason I consider leaving in 1-2 FoWs.
Perhaps I should cut the 2 Strixes for 2 FoWs?

I really don't know, but I like the dazes, together with the therapies the opponent gets in the situation of "do I play it safe and play my cards around daze or risk them getting therapied next turn?"

[Darkness]

I liked of your strategy and the ideia of using lavamancer, it is not so especific as dread of night, he can enters in anothers match ups. =)

I don't know if it happens with you, but when I took a lot of blue cards from MD to SB, like you do (4 daze, 1 pierce, 1 fow), I normally face problems like have 1 fow and no other blue card in my hand. =(

Last sunday, I bring

+1 Darkblast
+2 Strix
+1 explosives
+1 forked bolt
+1 ancient grudge
+1 cabal therpay
+1 vortex

and took off

-4 fow
-4 daze
-1 pierce

I guess I'll bring one lavamancer to SB, I really liked the idea.

What can I cut ? Here is my SB

2 Baleful Strix
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Forked Bolt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Painful Truths

In my opinion the lavamancer is better than the darkblast in almost every matchup.

Agrippa91 I like the choice of keeping dates in vs. the FoW for the surprise I gotcha scenario. I think that one thing that is important for everyone to remember, and pro players are always talking about this, is sideboarding is more like cooking than baking, yea you have certain card that are required to bring into certain matchups because they are clearly the best option, but being dynamic any paying attention to what your opponenet is specifically doing is something to factor when choosing your board. As I mentioned before sometimes I will keep dazes in if the opponent hasn't shown respect for it in the preboard match.

Also for the record I tried the strixs early on and I agree that they are not very good in the match up. Maybe if you have nothing else to bring in but I personally rather have some countermagic vs strix.

[Luca Grease]

.

Also for the record I tried the strixs early on and I agree that they are not very good in the match up. Maybe if you have nothing else to bring in but I personally rather have some countermagic vs strix.

This is the essence of what I was trying to say. Against DnT I'd rather leave in Daze/FoW (depending on whether I'm otp or otd) than bring in the strixes

[VERTUK]

Baleful Strix is really not that good against DnT, and should probably not be sided in. Most lists don't play Serra Avenger anymore, so it's only really good at blocking Flickerwisp (which will often generate value with its etb trigger anyway). Every other meaningful beater in the deck has either first strike or pro-black. On top of it, Sword of Fire and Ice will make it look silly. Besides, you should be the aggressor in this match-up.



I agree with this. Is what i mean, better explained by Luca. However Agrippa gave a good point with strixes being good therapy folder.

[Griselpuff]

Messed around with a bunch of different Delver decks (Gurmag Delver, 4C Snap Delver, UR Burn Delver) before switching back to Pyromancer Grixis Delver. Went 6-2-1 at EE5

Beat Grixis Delver, Miracles, Lands, Shardless BUG, Maverick, Infect, lost to Elves and Eldrazi. Drew the last round to take home some store credit.

I chose Pyromancer Grixis Delver because I wanted a second angle of attack (discard) against combo. I also think Therapy is excellent against D&T. Noah also brings in Therapy against Eldrazi and shaves some Daze, which I did not expect. I need to test that match-up more to figure out what is the best SB plan.

Played Noah's maindeck with the following SB:

2 Winter Orb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Electrickery
1 Forked Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix
2 Surgical Extraction

My main insight in testing was that the correct way to approach the Miracles match-up is via tempo. You stick some early threats, hope to resolve a Winter Orb (which I don't think I have ever lost when it is in play, it shuts down Top which therefore shuts down CounterTop while also cramping their cantrips), Flusterstorm or FoW a Terminus and win from there.

-6 Daze/FoW/Lightning Bolt/Cabal Therapy
+2 Winter Orb +2 Flusterstorm +1 Sulfuric Vortex +1 Sulfur Elemental

I think one FoW is okay to cut on the play, it can sometimes be hard to have enough cards to FoW. I like Therapy more on the play than I do on the draw, and I would cut at most 2 Lightning Bolts because we want an answer to Mentor. Daze is iffy, but most Miracles players don't play around it post-SB anymore. Furthermore, Daze is insane with Winter Orb. Most other lists play Pyroblast which I don't like because it doesn't counter Terminus. I just try to ignore Counterbalance by being ahead on board or via Winter Orb. I also think Miracles is the only match-up that Pyroblast is excellent, the other match-ups (mirror, ANT) it is actually somewhat mediocre. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are horrible against Miracles (unless they play EE), because they can shuffle away their Top and operate with their other cantrips. You're down a card, down tempo and their deck is happy with that trade. Also, I like leaving in Gurmag Angler because Miracles players don't generally play that many Jaces post-SB and you REALLY need to be always applying pressure.

In terms of beating Lands, I watched Noah Walker's videos and gained some good insights there.

-2 Therapy, -3 Daze/FoW/Bolt
+1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Finally, I recommend playing 1 Electrickery, it's an excellent answer to the Pyromancer + Strix configurations that most people are on.

EDIT: Woo, got my first Legacy 5-0 last night on stream: twitch.tv/griselpuff

Beat ANT x3, Eldrazi and Nic Fit

[Manipulato]

Messed around with a bunch of different Delver decks (Gurmag Delver, 4C Snap Delver, UR Burn Delver) before switching back to Pyromancer Grixis Delver. Went 6-2-1 at EE5

Beat Grixis Delver, Miracles, Lands, Shardless BUG, Maverick, Infect, lost to Elves and Eldrazi. Drew the last round to take home some store credit.

I chose Pyromancer Grixis Delver because I wanted a second angle of attack (discard) against combo. I also think Therapy is excellent against D&T. Noah also brings in Therapy against Eldrazi and shaves some Daze, which I did not expect. I need to test that match-up more to figure out what is the best SB plan.

Played Noah's maindeck with the following SB:

2 Winter Orb
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Electrickery
1 Forked Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix
2 Surgical Extraction

My main insight in testing was that the correct way to approach the Miracles match-up is via tempo. You stick some early threats, hope to resolve a Winter Orb (which I don't think I have ever lost when it is in play, it shuts down Top which therefore shuts down CounterTop while also cramping their cantrips), Flusterstorm or FoW a Terminus and win from there.

-6 Daze/FoW/Lightning Bolt/Cabal Therapy
+2 Winter Orb +2 Flusterstorm +1 Sulfuric Vortex +1 Sulfur Elemental

I think one FoW is okay to cut on the play, it can sometimes be hard to have enough cards to FoW. I like Therapy more on the play than I do on the draw, and I would cut at most 2 Lightning Bolts because we want an answer to Mentor. Daze is iffy, but most Miracles players don't play around it post-SB anymore. Furthermore, Daze is insane with Winter Orb. Most other lists play Pyroblast which I don't like because it doesn't counter Terminus. I just try to ignore Counterbalance by being ahead on board or via Winter Orb. I also think Miracles is the only match-up that Pyroblast is excellent, the other match-ups (mirror, ANT) it is actually somewhat mediocre. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are horrible against Miracles (unless they play EE), because they can shuffle away their Top and operate with their other cantrips. You're down a card, down tempo and their deck is happy with that trade. Also, I like leaving in Gurmag Angler because Miracles players don't generally play that many Jaces post-SB and you REALLY need to be always applying pressure.

In terms of beating Lands, I watched Noah Walker's videos and gained some good insights there.

-2 Therapy, -3 Daze/FoW/Bolt
+1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Ancient Grudge +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Finally, I recommend playing 1 Electrickery, it's an excellent answer to the Pyromancer + Strix configurations that most people are on.

EDIT: Woo, got my first Legacy 5-0 last night on stream: twitch.tv/griselpuff

Beat ANT x3, Eldrazi and Nic Fit

How happy were you with the Gurmag Delver list? It has also some TS in the side to attack combo on different angles...Why did you choose to play the YP version over the Gurmag one?

[Griselpuff]

How happy were you with the Gurmag Delver list? It has also some TS in the side to attack combo on different angles...Why did you choose to play the YP version over the Gurmag one?



Yeah but therapy is a lot better than thoughtseize. Snapcaster is not really powerful enough to play too many because he's a 3 drop.

[brenden2000]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31082-6-2-1-at-EE5-Grixis-Delver-is-great&p=975148#post975148

Shitty tournament report I posted a few weeks ago. Didn't really take many notes. Also why is this no longer a DTB?

[Manipulato]

Yeah but therapy is a lot better than thoughtseize. Snapcaster is not really powerful enough to play too many because he's a 3 drop.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13787&d=281327&f=LE

Gratz, why the strongly changed SB? No Orbs, 2 Pyroblast and so on...

[Griselpuff]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13787&d=281327&f=LE

Gratz, why the strongly changed SB? No Orbs, 2 Pyroblast and so on...

That's not me :tongue:

[Manipulato]

That's not me :tongue:

Oops :laugh:

[jrsthethird]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31082-6-2-1-at-EE5-Grixis-Delver-is-great&p=975148#post975148

Shitty tournament report I posted a few weeks ago. Didn't really take many notes. Also why is this no longer a DTB?

August/September had a very low number of larger Legacy tournaments in general and Delver decks didn't turn up good enough results in those two months combined. After EE5, the NA and European Legacy Champs, and the Baltimore Open next week, things will probably go back to normal next month.

Read the update thread in the DTB forum; Dice explains it in there.

I was playing around with 4x Stifle for a bit but wasn't jiving with it. Wanted to go back to a Therapy build, so I'm playing the 2nd place list from EE5 right now and really liking it. Only change I made was replacing Hydroblast in the SB with Null Rod:


Justin Parnell - 2nd - Grixis Delver

4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Forked Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Sudden Demise
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hydroblast
1 Ancient Grudge

Digging the MD Dismember. Sylvan Library is a great card that I miss playing with and seems excellent against Miracles or the mirror. Basic Island was really nice against the field at my LGS. Seems good with more D&T running around who sideboard into Path. >_<

[Griselpuff]

Anybody have any good SB plans against the new D&T lists? I'm not sure how many counterspells should be left post-SB. I'm thinking 4 Daze on the play and 4 FoW on the draw. Counterspells aren't great, but they have too many must answers and we don't have enough time to cantrip to find the answers. Therapy is great if you're not behind on board, but I find myself behind too easily if I SB out too many counterspells.

Btw, I went 12-4 at Eternal Weekend with my losses coming from D&T (Top 8 Mack Doyle), BG Turbo Depths x2 (both against the winner) and UB Reanimator.

[btm10]

The more toolboxy they get, the more I like counters in general, especially Daze. The best hands I've had against the more recent builds have been the ones that are answer-dense and capitalize on their lack of card selection, with counters being the best answers unless they have Cavern.

[revenantkioku]

I do not get that Island in the side, although I haven't recently played against Lands (Ghost Quarter, right?) or have seen a Path to Exile from D&T. Would that just be added into the deck to go up to 61 or is it replacing something?

I've been playing the 2 Stifle main and 3 Cabal Therapy side board plan and have been having decent success, but the side boarding is killing me. Is the OP fairly up to date?

[tescrin]

It's odd to say, but Stifle is really a meta call. In this age of Eldrazi, Miracles, and D&T; it's more difficult to get your value out of it. In my meta which is always fairly random, combo heavy, etc..; it has a better chance of being "Super cool muh dood."

Basically, if you still see lots of fetches and ways to screw combo, Stifle is still great as it ever was. If your meta looks like the DTB section, I'd say leave it at home for today.

That said, D&T and Eldrazi still try to Waste you so you can always block that with a Stifle, keep TKS out of your hand, or stop a miracle trigger; but unfortunately Chalice, Thalia, and CB all think that you shouldn't do it.

[Agrippa91]

I agree that Stifle is very abysmal against Eldrazi. It's also pretty medium against D&T: Unfortunately I don't play against it very often online so not too sure, but stifling Flickerwisp, Wasteland, Stoneforge, Batterskull and Recruiter seem fine (I'd still switch them for Therapies post-board).
I disagree that Stifle is bad against Miracles, in contrast: With stifle you can keep them off their "let me just fetch for basics only" plan because you can keep them off a color if you have stifle. Your Wastelands are also much better because your opponent is forced to play out as many lands as he can. As soon as my opponent has every color I just keep them in my hand for Terminus, Snapcaster and Jace. I've had very very good experiences with Stifle against Miracles. So much in fact that I no longer play Abrupt Decays in my sideboard but switched it up (decays were awkward in other matchups, I now still have 3 answers to chalice which is awesome).

Here's my current list:

Mainboard
3 YP
3 Probes
4 Stifles
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surigcal Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Forked Bolt
1 Terminate
2 Ancient Grudge

Note that this is tuned to the online meta so Dismember is there because Eldrazi is a bit worse with stifle, in Paper I'd propably play the Forked Bolt in the main and the Dismember/2nd Terminate in the sideboard.

[brenden2000]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109263

Just got back from Top 8ing this SCG open. Didn't take many good notes but I can answer questions if you guys have any.

[Agrippa91]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109263

Just got back from Top 8ing this SCG open. Didn't take many good notes but I can answer questions if you guys have any.

How often was Snuff out actually better than dismember? Wasn't it difficult with just 2 swamps in the deck?

Were the Winter Orbs really just for Miracles? Do you leave in all Dazes against Miracles then? Isn't it weird to draw the dazes when you don't have the Winter Orb?

[brenden2000]

Snuff out was better than dismember every game I had it. the 0 mana removal spell vs a Turn 2 TKS was great, additionally, that card is insane vs Infect and it is better than dismember vs D&T. Snuff out also kills KOTR which I thought would see an uptick in play. And I generally boarded out 2 daze on the draw and kept 4 daze in on the play. Winter Orb is decent vs any midrange/control deck not just miracles.

[revenantkioku]

Like the Snuff Out. Been only running one Surgical Extraction and I think a second is needed for Tin Fins and other combo decks. The number of times I have won a Show and Tell counter war only for them to top deck it is far too many.

How often is the Jitte coming in and against what? Fair decks, I assume. But lots of those run Wastes so mana is tight, right?

Thinking back to most of my matches, save for maybe Miracles, I cannot think of many times where I had four open mana. Yeah, it could be equipped the next turn but I'm genuinely curious when it isn't a win-more.

[brenden2000]

Put Jitte in like 3 minutes before the event started to test it out. Was great for the mirror match as it's a super trump card. Also, you have deathrite shamans that tap for mana. Figured it would be good vs. Death and Taxes which most people thought would be a big player this weekend. Giving that I believe it was a good choice.

[Tiago]

Hello my friends!

Yesterday I played a 31 players legacy tourment.

I WON! =D My first first place with grixis.

5v-1d-0L
--
2x0 BWg Deadguy Blade
2x1 Affinity
2x1 Burn
2x1 Miracles
2x1 BWg Deadguy Blade
1x1 Infect
--

I will put the link with the decklist when it appears in tcdecks!

;)

[tescrin]

Is the problem with Tombstalker vs. Gurmag the BB, or is it that he always costs you 2 mana?
My suspicion is that it's the BB; but I wanted to confirm since I'm brewing.

[Doneval]

Any thoughts about this slower, more controlling version of Grixis/4c Delver?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/506353#online

The main changes are:
- No Young Pyromancer
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Snapcaster Mage
- No Cabal Therapy or Gitaxian Probe
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- Extra Spell Pierces

It seems very strong against the mirror and other fair decks. I'm tempted to run it this weekend over the more standard Grixis build I've been running.

I also found this explaining the reasoning behind the deck: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-08192016-gurmag-anglin-and-delver-wranglin/

[meffeo]

Any thoughts about this slower, more controlling version of Grixis/4c Delver?

I do believe there is a dedicated thread, called Grixis Control / Thieves.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[revenantkioku]

The deck seems really appealing, and the "win-more" statement about Young Pyromancer seems to ring true. Yeah, going DRS, Pyromancer, Probe, Therapy, flashback Therapy is awesome, how often does it happen? Compared to how often the YP has sat in my hand because I need to be reactive on their turn and tapping out is not what I want to be doing?

Even playing just two, I get Gurmag Anglers out all the time and why am I not focusing more on the pressure from that? Plus the Angler screws with Tarmogoyf so hard. And there has to be applications for Thought Scour on your opponent, right? They spin the top without a Counterbalance out, okay, dump the two you chose and I get another card. Game two and I know you're not playing the graveyard game and you mulligan down to 6 and kept your scry on top? Am I being silly here or is this something?

Goodness, this is compelling.

Goodness, I don't want to shell out for a second Tropical Island or third Underground Sea when I have four Volcanic Islands already though, haha.

[Manipulato]

Any thoughts about this slower, more controlling version of Grixis/4c Delver?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/506353#online

The main changes are:
- No Young Pyromancer
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Snapcaster Mage
- No Cabal Therapy or Gitaxian Probe
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- Extra Spell Pierces

It seems very strong against the mirror and other fair decks. I'm tempted to run it this weekend over the more standard Grixis build I've been running.

I also found this explaining the reasoning behind the deck: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-08192016-gurmag-anglin-and-delver-wranglin/

This is no new tech, the deck is called 4c Delver and had really good results lately. If you want to discuss the deck join us in the "bUrg tempo" thread :wink:

[meffeo]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109263

Just got back from Top 8ing this SCG open. Didn't take many good notes but I can answer questions if you guys have any.

Did you ever feel the absence of Abrupt Decay and / or a sweeper (Sudden Demise, Toxic Deluge, Fire Covenant, Dread of Night) in your 75s?

[Doneval]

This is no new tech, the deck is called 4c Delver and had really good results lately. If you want to discuss the deck join us in the "bUrg tempo" thread :wink:
Thanks! I looked all over before I posted, but I was searching for Delver in the title. I'll go read the thread now. It is funny how much the decks overlap though.

[brenden2000]

Did you ever feel the absence of Abrupt Decay and / or a sweeper (Sudden Demise, Toxic Deluge, Fire Covenant, Dread of Night) in your 75s?

I never played Decay or Dread or Demise in my board. Never been a big fan of sweepers, although I would assume in certain scenarios that Jitte can act like a sweeper. Remember, we are a tempo deck not a control deck.

[ThiefSlayer]

Is the problem with Tombstalker vs. Gurmag the BB, or is it that he always costs you 2 mana?
My suspicion is that it's the BB; but I wanted to confirm since I'm brewing.

I guess it's both. It costs you always B more than gurmag angler, and also most lists run 2 underground, 3 volcanic and 1 tropical main.

One thing I'm considering is to use the 3rd underground instead of the tropical main, and put it on the SB like storm decks sometimes do. What do you guys think? I'm concerned about both the awkwardness of a land that doesn't generate red nor black and wasteland locking out of B.

[revenantkioku]

One thing I'm considering is to use the 3rd underground instead of the tropical main, and put it on the SB like storm decks sometimes do. What do you guys think? I'm concerned about both the awkwardness of a land that doesn't generate red nor black and wasteland locking out of B.


Opening with only the Tropical feels bad.
The Tropical is usually searched for last.
The green is only really needed when DRS is preparing to disrupt Griselbrand, et al.
Running out of black sources is awful.
Abrupt Decay is hard to cast with just one land green source already, the only other requirement is for Ancient Grudge in the side


Am I missing anything? Actually, looking at the mana, why is it 3 Volcanic, 2 Underground when Black is represented more heavily in the deck?
DRS (Okay, it could be the Tropical, but you're going to search for Underground first most likely unless you're fearing the early Wasteland and have more fetches. But creature removal is more likely, isn't it?)
Dismember (Yeah, Phyrexian mana, but there are cases where you want to save that two life if you can.)
Angler and Cabal Therapy require the black.

Pre-siding that's four absolute black, 4 very likely black and 2 probably-not but maybe black.
Versus the 7-8 (depending on the YP count) of required red. Pyroblast, Forked Bolt, and Ancient Grudge in board notwithstanding.

Am I missing something? Where did the 3 Volcanic, 2 Underground, 1 Tropical come from?

[ironclad8690]

Opening with only the Tropical feels bad.
The Tropical is usually searched for last.
The green is only really needed when DRS is preparing to disrupt Griselbrand, et al.
Running out of black sources is awful.
Abrupt Decay is hard to cast with just one land green source already, the only other requirement is for Ancient Grudge in the side


Am I missing anything? Actually, looking at the mana, why is it 3 Volcanic, 2 Underground when Black is represented more heavily in the deck?
DRS (Okay, it could be the Tropical, but you're going to search for Underground first most likely unless you're fearing the early Wasteland and have more fetches. But creature removal is more likely, isn't it?)
Dismember (Yeah, Phyrexian mana, but there are cases where you want to save that two life if you can.)
Angler and Cabal Therapy require the black.

Pre-siding that's four absolute black, 4 very likely black and 2 probably-not but maybe black.
Versus the 7-8 (depending on the YP count) of required red. Pyroblast, Forked Bolt, and Ancient Grudge in board notwithstanding.

Am I missing something? Where did the 3 Volcanic, 2 Underground, 1 Tropical come from?

Most important non-blue plays are turn 1 DRS (3 lands capable of doing so), turn 1 Lightning Bolt, and turn 2 Pyromancer (3 lands again). Red mana is important later in the game as Lightning Bolt becomes a kill spell, and it is important early in the game as removal or Pyro (to generate board advantage). Once you have cast DRS off of black mana, you still have 2 sources of black mana thereafter unless one or both are removed. Once you have cast DRS from green mana, now you have access to black. Lightning bolt and pyro cannot later produce red mana. Gurmag is only a lategame (which for us basically means turn 3 lol) spell, so you don't need black as early. Having green mana in your deck makes DRS way better in way more matchups than just reanimator, namely literally every damage based fair one.

[revenantkioku]

Thanks. I'm new to this and still learning.

I asked him on Twitter, but could someone shed some light on the Fire Covenant in Noah Walker's side (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109527)? I know that Toxic Deluge would wipe our side as well but it just seems the safer play. I could be missing something, though.

Dark blast also seems consistent but kind of curious.

[Doneval]

Thanks. I'm new to this and still learning.

I asked him on Twitter, but could someone shed some light on the Fire Covenant in Noah Walker's side (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109527)? I know that Toxic Deluge would wipe our side as well but it just seems the safer play. I could be missing something, though.

Dark blast also seems consistent but kind of curious.

I suspect he went with Fire Covenant because it's instant speed. So you can use it in response to a mom activation, an Aether Vial, or even in response to Craterhoof Behemoth hitting the table.

Darkblast seems awesome except for all the graveyard hate. So it's probably a meta call.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Thanks. I'm new to this and still learning.

I asked him on Twitter, but could someone shed some light on the Fire Covenant in Noah Walker's side (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109527)? I know that Toxic Deluge would wipe our side as well but it just seems the safer play. I could be missing something, though.

Dark blast also seems consistent but kind of curious.

It's safer from the perspective of "more castable", but it's only barely more castable as you still have to get to three mana, and it's highly likely that one of those will be red anyways by the time you're casting it. Usually the life is irrelevant, so let's think about what Deluge hits but Covenant doesn't (the key factors being that Deluge is untargeted and gives -X instead of damage):

- Mother of Runes
- Mirran Crusader
- Anything equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice (or Feast and Famine)

Deluge might be better against Death & Taxes, but Deluging for even 1 or 2 is likely to wipe out everything except for your Anglers, and in general the ability to instant-speed one-sided wrath is crazy and has much more application.

[tescrin]

The ability to leave your pressure on the board (and also not reduce your pressure that turn) is a big deal. Deluge can be better in the average case of a grind-fest; but delver is a tempo game. Losing your delver, even in a 4-for-2 is pretty lackluster as that is 3-6 damage you're not going to get in the next turn or two; easily enough t win the game by. Covenant, because it's instant, will also have a good chance of hitting one more duder since you can do it EoT on the opp's turn; giving you not only more dead-opp's creatures, but none of your own lost. It effectively turns off Mom as well anyway, as either she will be the only thing left on the board, or she'll tap out to protect something, which means you're probably swinging uncontested anyway; or you've opened the door for your other removal.

Also, FC has the ability to break YP parity while Deluge is going to wipe yourself to wipe your opponent. The FC will make up for your extra lost health immediately because you're going to swing freely with at least a couple damage, if not a whole ton if you've both been stale-mating.

Darkblast is generally pretty good against D&T, Grixis Delver mirrors (YP, Delver), and Elves. The added bonus of making your Angler a potential T2 casting without doing anything fancy is nice (DB a Mom or something, Dredge 3, 2 fetches, tap for 2 => 5 cards in the grave, 2 mana => Angler T2.) While that hand is going to be somewhat rare, it's still noteworthy that even a single dredge is enough to drop a 5/5 ready to go. You can even spend one of that two mana on a cantrip and still cast the angler. It's much more conditional on whether you have Elves, D&T, and other Grixis Delver players; but that's not the craziest thing to expect to see for a single sideboard slot.

[revenantkioku]

Thanks, everyone!
I somehow assumed Fire Covenant was a sorcery! (I blame it being an Ice Age card.) Now everything makes a lot more sense.

I was thinking of Deluge also from the Eldrazi standpoint (I seem to encounter it a lot in my area.) but Fire Covenant is going to take out Mimics in response to the triggers. I still like that Snuff Out that I've been packing since it was mentioned earlier.

Just ordered myself a copy of Fire Covenant.

[ironclad8690]

Covenant is the bomb! Pretty much every time I cast it vs a fair deck it turns the tables. We are also usually the aggressor, so tYeahhe life loss is negligible. It is also one of the only ways to take out multiple eldrazis that we have.

Don't play it on modo right now though, it's bugged and will crash the game/match. I am using K Command instead until they fix it.

[MXG]

Covenant is the bomb! Pretty much every time I cast it vs a fair deck it turns the tables. We are also usually the aggressor, so tYeahhe life loss is negligible. It is also one of the only ways to take out multiple eldrazis that we have.

Don't play it on modo right now though, it's bugged and will crash the game/match. I am using K Command instead until they fix it.

Huh, that is good to know. Taking it out of my sideboard.

[revenantkioku]

It didn't crash the game for me. But I cast it, selected the targets and amount of life I was paying and it just wouldn't take the last mana out of my mana pool.It kept saying "Pay 1" when I had blue floating. I fumbled with it for way too long, forfeit the game and then played another where I lost because the timer went up right before my attack for lethal went through. :(

Anyway, Fire Covenant is totally bugged, yes.

[ironclad8690]

I might try a Jitte in that spot too, I like having some sort of powerful effect for fair matchups.

Edit: yeah, that same thing happened to me, but I kept trying instead of conceding. The game restarted with new hands, and when either of us played a land it disappeared and we just kept playing back and forth. Eventually I scooped.

[redtwister]

Any thoughts on Make Obsolete?

Instant speed, 2B, one-sided -1/-1 seems quite powerful. Obviously not the overall power level of Fire Covenant for dealing with Eldrazi, but it seems very powerful against a variety of decks nonetheless.

[revenantkioku]

Super powerful in Kaladesh limited. I definitely had that experience multiple times.
But what would it go in against? The mirror? Something (non-merfolk) running True-Name Nemesis? Just seems like you'd want Fire Covenant and hope you can counter TNN. I mean, Elves, maybe? But I can't think of many matches where I'd be really wanting for that. Maybe D&T? But it doesn't hit a fair chunk of their stuff anyway.

Chiba is this weekend and I'm super fretting over my sideboard. If you were taking it to Chiba, what would you side?

[sheik80]

Hey guys, long time Miracle player here who wants to try something different, so I switched to Grixis. I played my first league ever yesterday going 3-2 beating Enchantress and Miracles x2 and losing to Elves (Julian Knab) and another Miracle.

My current Decklist is:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sudden Demise

The one Sudden Demise would be a Fire Covenant, but since it's bugged on MTGO... yeah.

Deck seems sweet, but i have a couple of questions for you: first one, i really want another sweeper like Demise/Fire Covenant in my SB: i had Darkblast and Bolt in my opening hand both G2 and G3 against Elves and yet i was still overwhelmed by little green men. I felt like spot removal isn't enought against these kind of decks. Is something you have experienced too or i just need to practice more? This applies to D&T too, i don't think only one sweeper is enought, but i don't really know what to cut to make room AND if it's necessary or not.

Second question, matches against Miracle were very close and i won both matches by capitalizing on my opponents mistakes + Winter Orb. What really scares me is that against a very skilled player i have little chances to come out on top. What i tried to do was playing very carefully without overextending into Terminus while saving my counters for Counterbalance. That card is a nightmare without Decay (which i don't think is playable in this deck with only 1 Tropical + Deathrites tbh). My board plan was the one suggested in the first page of this primer:

-4 Daze (matches go long and it's hard to mana screw them)
-1 Wasteland (same logic as Daze)
-1 Probe
-2 Bolt
+1 Therapy
+2 Painful Truths
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Surgical (silver bullet, extracting Terminus/Swords while shuffling their sculpted top seems nice to me)

Is that the common strategy against Miracle or new lists have different plans? I really feel an underdog, and since both online and here in Italy Miracles is the most played deck i would really appreciate any help you guys could give to me.

Thanks a lot in advance, i'm sorry if somethings looks unreadable to you, English is not my mother tongue and i may have left behind some spelling mistakes.

[Griselpuff]

I go -dismember -some bolt/daze/therapy +fluster +orb +reb/grim if I have them

I think truths is bad, it does nothing under CB. Daze is insane with winter orb so I leave in at least two. I'm more all in on the tempo plan and have had great success this way. The cuts depend on what you see (mentor) and if they play around daze. Most people don't play around daze g2



Hey guys, long time Miracle player here who wants to try something different, so I switched to Grixis. I played my first league ever yesterday going 3-2 beating Enchantress and Miracles x2 and losing to Elves (Julian Knab) and another Miracle.

My current Decklist is:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sudden Demise

The one Sudden Demise would be a Fire Covenant, but since it's bugged on MTGO... yeah.

Deck seems sweet, but i have a couple of questions for you: first one, i really want another sweeper like Demise/Fire Covenant in my SB: i had Darkblast and Bolt in my opening hand both G2 and G3 against Elves and yet i was still overwhelmed by little green men. I felt like spot removal isn't enought against these kind of decks. Is something you have experienced too or i just need to practice more? This applies to D&T too, i don't think only one sweeper is enought, but i don't really know what to cut to make room AND if it's necessary or not.

Second question, matches against Miracle were very close and i won both matches by capitalizing on my opponents mistakes + Winter Orb. What really scares me is that against a very skilled player i have little chances to come out on top. What i tried to do was playing very carefully without overextending into Terminus while saving my counters for Counterbalance. That card is a nightmare without Decay (which i don't think is playable in this deck with only 1 Tropical + Deathrites tbh). My board plan was the one suggested in the first page of this primer:

-4 Daze (matches go long and it's hard to mana screw them)
-1 Wasteland (same logic as Daze)
-1 Probe
-2 Bolt
+1 Therapy
+2 Painful Truths
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Surgical (silver bullet, extracting Terminus/Swords while shuffling their sculpted top seems nice to me)

Is that the common strategy against Miracle or new lists have different plans? I really feel an underdog, and since both online and here in Italy Miracles is the most played deck i would really appreciate any help you guys could give to me.

Thanks a lot in advance, i'm sorry if somethings looks unreadable to you, English is not my mother tongue and i may have left behind some spelling mistakes.

[sheik80]

I go -dismember -some bolt/daze/therapy +fluster +orb +reb/grim if I have them

I think truths is bad, it does nothing under CB. Daze is insane with winter orb so I leave in at least two. I'm more all in on the tempo plan and have had great success this way. The cuts depend on what you see (mentor) and if they play around daze. Most people don't play around daze g2


Thanks a lot for your input, i'll definitly try your approach next time i face Miracles and i'll let you know how it goes.

Truths is mainly there for BUG Cascade, in my current SB i don't have any specific card for that MU and i like a draw three that can help me getting my last bolt or creature to close the game. I don't like Orb against them and i really want a card that helps me the same way Orb does against Miracles. Do you think Truths doesn't have a place in Grixis' SB or it's just bad against Counterbalance? If you think it's better to cut it, what will you use in it's place against grindy MUs?

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Thanks a lot for your input, i'll definitly try your approach next time i face Miracles and i'll let you know how it goes.

Truths is mainly there for BUG Cascade, in my current SB i don't have any specific card for that MU and i like a draw three that can help me getting my last bolt or creature to close the game. I don't like Orb against them and i really want a card that helps me the same way Orb does against Miracles. Do you think Truths doesn't have a place in Grixis' SB or it's just bad against Counterbalance? If you think it's better to cut it, what will you use in it's place against grindy MUs?

Truths against Shardless is fighting on an axis that they're way better at; they'll have 4 draw-3 spells compared to your 1-2, and they're more likely to successfully cast them. Rather than trying to out-grind them, I think it's more effective to go under them. Stick a single threat and force them to play defense. They don't run very much countermagic and tend to be more of a tapout control deck, so that's your opening.

Good cards: Pyroblast (save them for Visions and JTMS, if you counter Shardless the cascade trigger still happens), Winter Orb (they can't do much with just 1 mana), Pithing Needle (for Liliana, JTMS, Tar Pit, or DRS/Wasteland if you're desperate), Baleful Strix (anti-Goyf and extra card advantage).

Bad cards: The Therapy/Probe package isn't great here.

[sheik80]

Truths against Shardless is fighting on an axis that they're way better at; they'll have 4 draw-3 spells compared to your 1-2, and they're more likely to successfully cast them. Rather than trying to out-grind them, I think it's more effective to go under them. Stick a single threat and force them to play defense. They don't run very much countermagic and tend to be more of a tapout control deck, so that's your opening.

Good cards: Pyroblast (save them for Visions and JTMS, if you counter Shardless the cascade trigger still happens), Winter Orb (they can't do much with just 1 mana), Pithing Needle (for Liliana, JTMS, Tar Pit, or DRS/Wasteland if you're desperate), Baleful Strix (anti-Goyf and extra card advantage).

Bad cards: The Therapy/Probe package isn't great here.

That's actually very nice to know, i thought Therapy was good since they are mostly a tap out deck and that's our only answer to Tarmogoyf beside the 1-of Dismember. I was boarding out some number of FoWs on the draw and Dazes on the play, but i can get the logic behind keeping Dazes OTD if we manage to stick a Winter Orb.

So basically the boarding would be:

OTP:
-2 Therapies
-2 Probe (i like to keep 2, having information regarding their hand/removal helps a lot in sequencing my plays, at least for me)
-2 FoW (daze is much better OTP, expecially against a deck that plays lots of 2 for 1)
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Strix

OTD:
-2 Therapies
-2 Probe
-2 Daze
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Strix

I'm not playing needle atm, i would cut a probe probably to fit it in G2/G3.

Sorry for my flurry of questions, noone here plays Grixis and that's probably the best place to ask :tongue:

[ironclad8690]

I have just beaten 3 Miracles decks in a row using this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember

3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Forked Bolt
2 Painful Truths
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte

My plan vs Miracles is this:

Out: 2 Daze, 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Dismember, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Underground Sea (maybe this should be Wasteland or something else)

In: 2 Painful Truths, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Winter Orb, 2 Invasive Surgery

[ironclad8690]

Ended up 4-1 in that league. Lost to Julian23 by a narrow margin (won game 1, game 2 ended with him effectively at 1, and g3 I didn't stand a chance), but aside from the 3 Miracles decks I beat a BUG delver 2-1 as well.

[ironclad8690]

Just played another 4-1:

4c Loam: 2-0
BUG Shardless: 2-1
Miracles: 2-0
BR Reanimator: 1-2
Death And Taxes: 2-1

The D&T g3 was one of the most ridiculously swingy games I have ever played. I am still surprised I won, I got him to 4, took several batterskull hits, eventually managed to assemble a small army and then get a jitte online, dealt with multiple stoneforges and cast 3 Ancient Grudges (1 normal 2 with flashback), none of which actually destroyed batterskull.

This was a case of some extremely timely draws for both myself and my opponent. I played a TNN when he was at 4 and had batterskull in play, only for him to follow that up with a council's judgment. I also misplayed by fetching my Trop too early, and it got wasted so I couldn't flash back by grudges until I got a DRS online. Very tight match.

[brenden2000]

Top 8ed an EE6 Legacy Sattelite with the same list as was used in my SCG Baltimore Open Top 8. Will post a report sometime within the next 2 or 3 days.

[Griselpuff]

How has Jitte been for everybody? I am not a fan of the card, but it's one of the few options that hits Eldrazi, D&T, Elves and the mirror.

[ironclad8690]

It's been pretty good for me, but i would really prefer fire covenant. Nothing cleans up eldrazi/d&t/elves/maverick better, not to mention completely turning the tables in the mirror from behind.

[Griselpuff]

Fire Covenant can be hard to resolve, and there are times when three mana or life is an issue. Furthermore, it's very awkward to topdeck after you have spent removal on their creatures. I like it a lot against Elves, but not against Delver/Eldrazi/D&T

Then again, the mana issue is true for Jitte too. Jitte is also vulnerable to Decay.

[revenantkioku]

Twice during GP Chiba I had a Pithing Needle come down on my Jitte and it just slowed the games down so hard. Digging for my Ancient Grudge (these were D&T and Shardless BUG matches) resulted in nothing but wasting more time and I drew both of those matches.

The Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy thing happened maybe once or twice and even then there were often Brainstorm activations which left me feeling cold to it all. Maybe versus D&T when they second turn search for Batterskull and it's like "Yay, I know what you have in hand." But Probe and Therapy never felt that great to have.

Could be misplays on my part, but I'm not feeling love for the Therapy package main.

[ironclad8690]

If you are disliking the Therapy/Probe package maybe you can be my test subject :P

I brewed this up today

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer/Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kolaghan's Command/Crosis' Charm/Swingy 3 mana thing (Fire Covenant)

3 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

Pick your own sideboard.

[ironclad8690]

I have been experimenting with different builds and sideboards, and here are my thoughts lately:

1) You definitely want Winter Orb vs Miracles. I tried cutting it for multiple Pithing Needles and added Decays to the board ala FGC from magic online, but it just didn't get the job done the same way.

2) My win % is still the highest with the 2 TNN 2 Dismember list. I tried playing 4th probe and pierce in their place, but I am for sure set on 2 TNN. It just does pretty much everything I want. What I am not sure about is the sideboard.

Anyone else testing at the moment?

[ironclad8690]

The definition of tilt: losing to Storm after surgicalling all of their tendrils and having them naturally draw their 1 empty the warrens when you have untapped DRS and FOW backup.

http://i.imgur.com/FwGFXAn.jpg

[brenden2000]

http://www.blackmagicgaming.com/high-results-low-standards-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-blind-flip-delvers/

Write up for the Sattelite that I promised to post. I thought I already posted it but apparently not.

[MinosSnt]

Hi Guys,

I would like to know what are the worst match up for grixis delver ?

Miracle ? D&T ? Shardless (no I don't think) ?

[VERTUK]

Hi Guys,

I would like to know what are the worst match up for grixis delver ?

Miracle ? D&T ? Shardless (no I don't think) ?

In my experience, Lands, Miracles and big mana decks (aggro loam, nic fit) are our worse matchups

[Griselpuff]

It depends on how good you are and how your deck is built. Lands and Miracles are commonly cited as bad match-ups, but I find them close to even if my opponent is good and favorable if they are not. The biggest upside to Delver is that you have the best sideboard in the format because you can play hate cards that are far more powerful than your opponents and because you have cantrips to find them.

Currently, the decks I'm most scared to face are UR Burn Delver, Eldrazi (only low to the ground lists built to beat Delver) and BG Depths (my SB is pretty bad here). D&T, Elves, Miracles, Lands, BR Reanimator and the Delver mirror are all close-ish, but again this all depends on your SB and playskill.

[Agrippa91]

Hey guys!
I'm currently working on a BUG Delver deck and would like to see exactly how my slower removal in Abrupt Decay affects my games against Grixis Delver. I've tuned the deck to be faster than the average BUG deck (no Goyfs, Bobs).
Does anybody have the "Noah" Grixis Delver list on MtGO and would like to jam some games with me? I'm Agrippa91 on MtGO, just add me. I'll propably be on the next hours...

[NetherSpirit]

Hi guys!

I just made 5-2-1 in a 54 player tournament resulting in a 3rd place finish. I feel comfortable with the main deck but still have trouble shaping a correct sideboard for my meta. I would say it is varied but there's a strong tendency to play stoneforge mystic and B/G/x decks along with chalice of the void and creature based decks like elves or d&t. I would really appreciate some comments on what you think about it.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Bitterblossom

SB

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Electrickery
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pithing Needle



Matches

Food chain 2-0
Game 1 I stifled him out and killed with delver. Game 2 wasteland out of game with delver and daze backup.

12 Post 2-0
I had explosive hands and stifled his expedition maps.

Miracles 1-1
I win game 1 putting early pressure and managing my threat order afterwards, stifled 2 terminus. Game 2 he had enough removal and i lost to late game. Game 3 he played slow on purpose once he realized he was falling behind. He took forever resolving brainstorms just to deal with my pithing needle while my shamans did the job. He drew a councils judgement that saved him a turn and i wasnt able to kill him in turn 5...

Deathblade 1-2
Win game 1 easy. Game 2 i keep 1 land, stifle his fetchland and he follows with wasteland to my only volcanic. Pretty risky on his side but it paid off, I never saw a land again. Game 3 gets grindy and of course his late game draws are devastating.

Elves 2-0
Game 1 i create a* 2 delver clock with fow backup and wasteland that takes out cradle and wins. Game 2 i see bolt, decay and establish a fast clock while i kill his insect and quirion ranger.

Shardless 2-1
I win game 1 with my mana denial plan. Game 2 gets grindy and he pulls ahead after resolving* ancestral recall and i loose. Game three is very close but i manage to pull ahead thanks to bitterblossom and abrupt decay.

Top 8

Deathblade 2-0
Same deck that beat me in round 4. Game 1 i probe and see a devastating hand and dont think i can win . I play delver , pass, flip , draw another delver, play ponder and eventually race him just in time before he can play all the bombs in his hand. Game 2 gets grindy as hell but cabal therapy puts me ahead and i start making faerie rogues and controlling my life total with two shamans. He manages to get rid of them and put some pressure but the faeries and a bolt finish the job with me at 1 life.


B/W Lingering Souls 0-2
Very disappointing match. Heavy discard, a lot of removal, stoneforge and tokens. I mulliganed both games and played a weak game. Upset my meta call cards like izzet stati and electrickery didnt show up, any would have won me game 2.

I'm pretty satisfied even though i know the SB is a bit sloppy.

Thanks for reading and helping out with* any suggestions!

Sent from my SM-J700M using Tapatalk

[Arguru]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/526696#online

Is this you,Bob?if so,how were the 2 sideboard ghost quarter?has anyone else tried ghost quarter?

[Agrippa91]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/526696#online

Is this you,Bob?if so,how were the 2 sideboard ghost quarter?has anyone else tried ghost quarter?

He mentioned them on stream which you should definitely check, here he's playing this month's Legacy challenge on MtGO: https://www.twitch.tv/griselpuff/v/106567448

He said that overall the card is too swingy. He really only wanted it against Eldrazi (he has like an 80% win rate in the mirror) but there it's only good on the play where you're favored anyways.

[Griselpuff]

He mentioned them on stream which you should definitely check, here he's playing this month's Legacy challenge on MtGO: https://www.twitch.tv/griselpuff/v/106567448

He said that overall the card is too swingy. He really only wanted it against Eldrazi (he has like an 80% win rate in the mirror) but there it's only good on the play where you're favored anyways.

Yeah for now I don't want it. It's almost always good against Lands and 4C Loam, but it's iffy against Delver/Eldrazi. Removal is better for the latter two match-ups and targeted hate is better for the first two.