[Deck] Grixis Tempo

[Mzfroste]

I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver, 75 can be found here (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2018-01-22#decklists). I copied a Bob Huang list a couple months ago and replaced a Price of Progress with the Flusterstorm before the challenge. I ended up going undefeated in games until game 2 of the finals vs Egget on Red Splash DNT. My actual matchups over the event were

2-0 Bryant _Cook on TES
2-0 ItsUnfair on Miracles
2-0 JPA93 on Sneak and Show
2-0 Gul_Dukat on Grixis Delver
2-0 viscoulius on Eldrazipost
2-0 Egget on Red DNT ( Magus and Direfleet Daredevil MB)
2-0 exSIN on TurboDepths

Top 8

2-0 ruckus-mh on Sneak and Show
2-0 kentaro_hokori on Grixis Delver
2-1 Egget on Red DNT

Fortunate that I didn't get any real tough matchups like Lands, the most difficult being Egget. Direfleet Daredevil is the real deal, I don't know if it will be enough to shift the core DNT build to RW over Mono White but there is certinetly a lost more incentive to do so now. Not particularly spectacular went down for me, they were typical enough Delver games, and those where the gameplan broke down, the power of patience and Gitaxian probe got me there. In particular, game 3 of the finals I kept a 7 held together by a Grim Lavamancer, t1 probe to see Path STP and Orzhov Pontiff all ready to take him down. But since I knew that I was able to grind through the removal with a Delver to soak up 1 and a Pyromancer + Therapy to get the last 2 and a creature I can't remember. I also had a nice g2 win vs Eldrazipost where he was able to cast and resolve a Newlamog with Chalice on 1 and Sphere on board.

I liked the Flusterstorm well enough, but more for Miracles / 4c Control than combo itself. I have a pretty stock 7 in 7 out against all Combo decks, so the Flusterstorm had the potential to be gravy there, but some of those 7 are lower impact than others so it still made a difference. Other considerations for that slot were a 2nd Grudge, a Dismember, or 3rd Surgical. I evaluated my needs based on what sideboard games I find myself wanting more cards to bring in, not necessarily what my worst matchups are. For example against Miracles I want to bring in more cards than I want to take out so thats not a matchup I'd want to add a sideboard card specifically for. For DnT I feel like I could always make room for more hate. But Grudge is fairly narrow in application where as Flusterstorm is potentially live against many medium matchups so I still went with it to see how it would go, and I didn't hate to see it (unlike the Liliana the Last Hope I tested, the matchups I planned to use it in, I ended up not really wanting to cut anything for).

I'll answer any questions about the challenge or my general play of the deck, though I'm sure most of you have more experience with it. I started playing it exclusively early December and have 236 match results recorded, but most of that is learning the play of the deck and sideboarding strategy with what I have, not any real evaluation of the card choices of the deck. That 1 sideboard spot is the only card in the 75 I've done any experimenting with.

[LewisCBR]

I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver...

Incredibly impressive on yet another Challenge win, congrats and way to go, man! I am curious as to what your side plans are for for the mirror and the +7/-7 you mentioned vs combo.

EDIT: Also, thats a hell of a gauntlet of good players you thrashed on your way to win this week.

[Mzfroste]

Against traditional combo (Storm, SNS, Reanimator) I side out 2 TNN and the 5 Bolts. I do change it up if I for some reason expect stuff like Xantid Swarm, Grim Lavamancer or Monastery Mentor sideboard cards, but as those are much less common than they ever were, I haven't had to bring them back in g3 much at all. Against Ant and UB Reanimator I was bringing in 3 Therapy, 2 Surgical and 2 Blasts. Against BR Reanimator I was bringing in 3 Therapy 2 Surgical 2 Edict. Against Sneak and Show I bring in 3 Therapy 2 Blast, and then change up the last 2 spots based on what build I think they are (4 Sneak Attack, Omni with Intuition, Traditional with the 2-3 Omni). They may be the 2 edicts, the Pithing Needle, or Surgical Extraction. Sometimes if I want an 8th card I'll cut an Angler, but I try to avoid that. But its such a clean sideboard plan, the "easy" 7 out 7 in, I don't want to put more sideboard cards in for combo and find myself not bringing them in.

I've found a similar situation with the Mirror and Miracles. I've tried a bunch of different cuts in the mirror, but I've settled on just a clean cut of 4 FOW, bringing in 2 Blasts, 1 Lavamancer, 1 Kcommand. Originally I was cutting a probe in place of a Fow, and trying to keep in a 2nd by either cutting a 2nd Probe or not bringing in a Blast or the Kcommand. But while there are some times I find myself wanting a FOW or losing a game I've taken over because I Probed away 2 life, much more often I find myself with a ridiculous advantage by having a turn 1 Probe, or being able to grind it out once I've avoided the Dazes and Wasteland locks and by having that probe, and would rather have a swinging spell like Kcommand rather than a FOW to brute Force my way through. Obviously every game is different, but thats whats worked for me. Specifically that I only have 4 cards I really want and 4 cards I'm comfortable cutting. If I had a 5th card to bring in there isn't anything left I'm excited to cut, I'd probably just end up not bringing in one of the blasts.

As for Miracles, its a bit different. I really want to bring in the 3 Therapy, 2 Blasts, 2 Surgical, and now the 1 Flusterstorm. I also kinda want to bring in Needle. Meanwhile the only things I want to cut are 3 of the 5 bolts. I've been cutting the 2 Angler, 2 Wasteland, and now that I'm trying to bring in an 8th card, I've cut 1 Daze on the draw, having yet to play a postboard game with Flusterstorm on the play I haven't given though to what I would cut in that case. But I'd like to keep in one of those Wastelands for Search for Azcanta and the Volcs, as most Miracles players are playing REBs postboard now. So I can't really justify having any more anti Miracles cards, even if its a tough matchup, as it wouldn't be that much more effective than what I'd be cutting for it. I even had Lilana of the Last Hope in with that matchup in mind, and ended up not bringing it in as there wasn't anything left to take out.

[eldub]

You find the full playset of daze to be worth playing vs Miracles? I've been cutting 2 Wastelands and 2 Daze to make room for the cards I want as I feel Daze has a very short timespan of being relevant. I don't love Fluster in the matchup as you can rarely get Terminus and it doesn't interact with Jace/CB/Azcanta. I like Needle for shutting down Jace or a flipped Azcanta.

Congrats on yet another win, well played.

[schtormy]

Congrats mzfrost.

Reading your comments on siding is very enlightening especially when the deck is so hard to modify with so little flex spots.

I do have a question as to why you don't use izzet staticaster when siding in the mirror and when you're considering siding it in? (Elves maybe? Although she comes often a bit late to really matter doesn't she?)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Mzfroste]

The way I treat the mirror is I want to be as proactive and aggressive as I reasonably can. I don't want to go too deep on answers, I just want to be able to be casting my spells. So basically as long as I avoid getting wasted out I just want to be punching my opponent in the mouth. Izzet is both too expensive, 3 mana being a lot in the mirror, and too low impact, only stopping Pyromancer, the singleton Lavamancer in the side, and as of yet to be flipped Delvers. That leaves DRS, Angler, TNN and flipped Delver to still kill you. I'd rather it be the cantrip or much lower to the ground answer. To give an example, my last match in the mirror the only threats I cast were 2 DRS and an Angler. My opponent had to use his Staticaster as a chump to buy him time, and lost the game with a Pyroblast in hand. Not to say that pyroblast isn't worth bringing in, but there is a big risk to bringing in too many answers in the mirror.

As for what I use it for, DNT is where it gets most of its work, and that is a matchup we need all the help we can get. Elves as well, and any cretaure deck I notice an excess of X/1's. I used to bring it in vs Depths, but they tend not to expose Hexmage until its ready to be used, and I also find the best way to beat them is just be as fast as possible, so no 3 mana 0 power creatures for me.

[JackaBo]

Hello
I played grixis for the first time at my LGS yesterday. Your sideboard tips 7 in and 7 out was very useful, mrFrozt, thank you.
My list is influenced by my experiences playing Canadian: 2nd TNN for 6th removal MD and 2:nd TNN in the board for the grindy match-ups.

M1 I faced mono black griselstorm and did the 7 out 7 in plan. In g3 he used a transformational sideboard, which i did notice - i saw him siding out a pile of cards, and put some removals back in.
M2 were versus elves. I realised my deck was badly equiped fighting elves with no sweeper and Lili as the only recurring removal. I brought in what removal i had (edict + abrade + lili) and 2 therapy, 1 fluster for 4 fow and the two anglers. My reasoning was that stripping their hand makes glimpse-hands worse and anglers will never deal damage vs elves. I did get a 2for1 with a therapy then flashing back to take his hoof before he could cast it, so therapy felt real.
However, I played pretty bad, the MU felt even worse and I lost 0-2. Thinking in retrospect, i am not sure i actually want a sweeper in my board... maybe just accepting this one guy on elves being a horrendous MU?
M3 versus grixis pyromaner (with therapy and preordain). This MU felt unloosable. They are a slower version then us, and playing DRS makes us even faster. Both games i kept doubble daze hands and he tried to play around it at all times. I think it cost him the game: when he finally started making things it was already too late. I boarded out 1 angler, 1 push, 4 fow for 2 blasts, 1 TNN, 2 therapy and winter orb. Thinking afterwards i think pyroblasts was wrong. He sided out jace and i can race TNN. Keeping push and the third therapy would have been better i think. These games made me see that there's some great synergy between daze and therapy.

G4 versus as foretold living end. Lost G2 by bloodmoon into combo, won g3 off winter orb as he tapped out. I boarded out 5 bolts plus TNN and in with 2 blasts, 2 artifact hate (for chalice), 2 therapy.

I'm happy for any feedback on my deck board and boarding.


Deck: Legacy Delver Grixis.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells:28
4 Brainstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Winter Orb


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

[Shaman]

Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.

[apistat_commander]

M2 were versus elves. I realised my deck was badly equiped fighting elves with no sweeper and Lili as the only recurring removal. I brought in what removal i had (edict + abrade + lili) and 2 therapy, 1 fluster for 4 fow and the two anglers. My reasoning was that stripping their hand makes glimpse-hands worse and anglers will never deal damage vs elves. I did get a 2for1 with a therapy then flashing back to take his hoof before he could cast it, so therapy felt real.
However, I played pretty bad, the MU felt even worse and I lost 0-2. Thinking in retrospect, i am not sure i actually want a sweeper in my board... maybe just accepting this one guy on elves being a horrendous MU?

Sweepers in the board are useful for more than just Elves, they can come in against D&T, other Pyromancer decks, Maverick, and Storm if they are relying on an early EtW to get there. I usually keep Forces in against Elves and cut Dazes because they can easily produce the mana, and stopping NO/Glimpse is paramount. Forked Bolt and Izzet Staticaster are pretty solid against them and other creature decks and is another good SB option. It really just depends on the balance of decks you see in your local meta.


Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.

Grixis is an incredibly mana intensive deck that can't really support basics. You are only running 6 real lands, so getting Wasted off of a color would be really easy if you have any basics. You could *maybe* get away with an Island, but I'd rather run Shocks. Obviously Shocks are less than optimal (especially with Daze), but having access to all of your colors is more important than the damage you are taking.

[JackaBo]

Sweepers in the board are useful for more than just Elves, they can come in against D&T, other Pyromancer decks, Maverick, and Storm if they are relying on an early EtW to get there. I usually keep Forces in against Elves and cut Dazes because they can easily produce the mana, and stopping NO/Glimpse is paramount. Forked Bolt and Izzet Staticaster are pretty solid against them and other creature decks and is another good SB option. It really just depends on the balance of decks you see in your local meta.

Thanks. The point about cutting dazes instead of forces is a really good advice. May I ask you, do you run 1 sweeper then? Do you run spot removal as well? What about edict(s)? I was thinking that I want to run fire covenant because it's awesome and I'm soft towards old-school cards but maybe Izzet statiscaster is better.

[apistat_commander]

Thanks. The point about cutting dazes instead of forces is a really good advice. May I ask you, do you run 1 sweeper then? Do you run spot removal as well? What about edict(s)? I was thinking that I want to run fire covenant because it's awesome and I'm soft towards old-school cards but maybe Izzet statiscaster is better.

I've got 1 Edict/1 Push/1 Staticaster in my board at the moment, though that changes frequently. Everything is a balancing act with Delver, so cutting Edicts/Pushes makes you weaker against decks that can land fatties which you will have a hard time dealing with otherwise. In terms of sweepers you have access to Elecktrickery, Fire Covenant, Dread of Night, Izzet Staticaster, Marsh Casualties (if you run 3 Sea) and Sulfur Elemental. Jitte, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, and Izzet Staticaster are all good as well.

Sideboarding with a deck like Delver is a mix of luck and skill. You want to be 50% across the field but your sideboard simply can't accommodate what you'd like against each deck. The skill piece is reading your metagame, knowing the strong/weak players and MUs and how you line up against them. Beyond that you are just playing the match-up lottery each time and sometimes your SB choices pan out and sometimes they don't. Grixis Delver, like all Tempo strategies, wins on thin margins so the more you play the better you will do with it.

[TruKnightmare]

I won the Legacy Challenge yesterday with Grixis Delver...

Congrats on the win! I played against Egget on RW D&T, as well but with 4C Loam. Flashing back my Swords to Plowshares and my Toxic Deluge was brutal. I wonder how serious “red snapcaster” is going to be.

[Scootmin]

Hello everybody, I really like this archetype and unfortunately I don't have all the duals needed for the optional manabase. I just have two underground seas, one volcanic island, one tropical island and one badlands. Should I run shocklands or should I just go with some basics? Could you please suggest an alternative manabase with aforementioned restrictions?
I prefer running therapies in the SB but I see a benefit in running them maindeck if I have badlands. Thanks.

I would run shocklands over basics, though it depends a little bit on your local meta. If you have a ton of other Grixis Delver, Burn, etc players, shocklands could lose you a meaningful amount of games. If you have a lot of Miracles, Turbo Depths, Sneak and Show, etc decks that don't pressure your life total, shocklands are basically the same as duals. I really can't see running basics, so the main question for me would be "do I run a 'Watery Grave and Steam Vents' or 'Badlands and Steam Vents'?" Best of luck in upgrading :)

[Scootmin]

I've got 1 Edict/1 Push/1 Staticaster in my board at the moment, though that changes frequently.

I just upped my Forked Bolt count to 2 (both in the side) in lieu of running a Push. It seems better more frequently as it can knock out 2x Baleful Strix (or a Strix and SCM, YP and a token, etc) and it also kills almost everything Push kills (Leovold is what comes to mind). Is there a reason (other than Leovold and susceptibility of getting cut off/taxed on Red) that you think Push is better than another Forked Bolt? Hydroblast is another reason, but it's already so taxed with Bolts, YPs, Blasts, Staticaster, etc.

I've been seeing a lot of the mirror and Pile/Grixis control decks. I'm running a TON of removal in the board. 2x Blasts, 2x Forked Bolt, Edict, Staticaster, Grim Lavamancer, and Abrade. It bears mentioning that I'm running 3 Therapy main, so that tends to help my Combo matchups out of the gate.

[VeltePelle]

Hi all!
Longtime lurker, new poster here. I have played some variant of delver since before the DTT ban, but do by no means consider myself an expert in the field of flying bugs.

First off, congrats on your win in the challenge Mzfroste. Since you have logged a decent amount of matches with Bob Huang's main, maybe you can share your opinion on a few topics.

1. How do you feel the deck operates with 15 threats? Do you find that you are threat flooded or is this necessary when the meta has a high proportion of fair decks?
2. Are the counterspells enough interaction against combo G1?
3. Do you have an opinion about this versions strengths/weaknesses vs. cabal therapy/stifle builds?
4. Why would you bring in blast over fluster against ANT or UB Reanimator (or is this from before you added the fluster)?
5. How do you usually utilize surgical against miracles? Is it for “countering” snap or the second terminus or for removing their few relevant spells proactively (StP, terminus etc.)? I found this approach underwhelming before, but have not revisited it after the top banning.

On a different note, do anyone have access to the general sideboard plan Bob used at tournaments at the end of last year? It would be nice to have it as a reference for developing my own approach to sideboarding with this build (as I have mostly played the CT version earlier).

[eldub]

@Mzfroste (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?39516-Mzfroste),

I see you've done some tweaks to your SB plan with the latest 5-0, curious your impressions on 2x Dismember. What matchups are you bringing those in and have they performed well for you?

[Adan]

Now that I see the list, can someone enlighten me on Price of Progress? I'm on the Bob Huang list as well and I'm doing fairly okay with it, but I replaced PoP with Sulfuric Vortex, also as a tool to more or less shut down PunFire-Grove engines (plus it's good against Miracles and Czech Pile imo).

Is PoP a dedicated tool for those lands / TurboDephts decks? I can't really see the benefit of running that card...

[CptHaddock]

Now that I see the list, can someone enlighten me on Price of Progress? I'm on the Bob Huang list as well and I'm doing fairly okay with it, but I replaced PoP with Sulfuric Vortex, also as a tool to more or less shut down PunFire-Grove engines (plus it's good against Miracles and Czech Pile imo).

Is PoP a dedicated tool for those lands / TurboDephts decks? I can't really see the benefit of running that card...

Yes, the mid atlantic area is pretty well known for having A LOT of loam players (both lands/4c loam). I would not bring it in against turbo depths though.

[jroharo]

Does anyone have a link to a decent sideboard guide for this deck? (I'm on Bob Huang's 2 pierce list.)

I've been playing it for the last couple months and I think I'm getting a decent hang of the deck, but I'd like to compare my sideboarding strategy with a more experienced sideboarding guide, if there is one available.

[IamHANDSOME]

What do you think about playing 3 Wasteland instead of 4 main in Grixis? I remember playing against a lot of Grixis builds with Ur Delver and all of the players told me they boarded 1-2 Wasteland out since I am able to fetch on Basics and Wasteland was often a dead card. Currently I am also playing Grixis Delver and my meta has a lot of combo decks which can fetch on Basics also such as Sneak Attack, Food Chain, Storm, Aluren, etc. Im wondering about playing only 3 Wasteland main to avoid drawing to many of them. I know that in the mirror they can be quite devestating but I feel like often they dont do what they should do (so more of a meta choice) and I often have to play a mulligan if Wasteland is the only land on the opening hand and dont have blue mana to play Brainstorm and Ponder. Anyone else tested only 3 Wasteland main? How did it run?

[NedB37]

Does anyone have a link to a decent sideboard guide for this deck? (I'm on Bob Huang's 2 pierce list.)

I've been playing it for the last couple months and I think I'm getting a decent hang of the deck, but I'd like to compare my sideboarding strategy with a more experienced sideboarding guide, if there is one available.

I too would be curious to see a rough breakdown, to compare what i try and do with generally accepted best practice, as i feel it's somewhere i can definitely improve (bit of a newcomer to the format). Understanding more of the 'why' things are done would really help, long term.

[Scootmin]

Is PoP a dedicated tool for those lands / TurboDephts decks? I can't really see the benefit of running that card...

PoP is also great against various Eldrazi decks (better against the MUD/Post builds, but still great against Stompy). I also bring it in against some of the 4c control decks, as they're typically running infinite removal, various sweepers, and SCM, so it's difficult to close down games.

[Scootmin]

What do you think about playing 3 Wasteland instead of 4 main in Grixis? I remember playing against a lot of Grixis builds with Ur Delver and all of the players told me they boarded 1-2 Wasteland out since I am able to fetch on Basics and Wasteland was often a dead card. Currently I am also playing Grixis Delver and my meta has a lot of combo decks which can fetch on Basics also such as Sneak Attack, Food Chain, Storm, Aluren, etc. Im wondering about playing only 3 Wasteland main to avoid drawing to many of them. I know that in the mirror they can be quite devestating but I feel like often they dont do what they should do (so more of a meta choice) and I often have to play a mulligan if Wasteland is the only land on the opening hand and dont have blue mana to play Brainstorm and Ponder. Anyone else tested only 3 Wasteland main? How did it run?

I've been playing 3 Wastelands online for a few months now. I certainly don't have the trophy count of Lewis, et al, but in my experience, I don't miss the 4th. I would say I get Wasted out of the game more frequently than I Waste others out, so the extra Fetch (which is my replacement card) comes in handy. I don't think I've played against a Delver/Pile opponent that didn't have a turn 1 DRS in the past month though, so Wasteland loses a lot of its lustre there.

[Adan]

I guess most people think of Wasteland as a way to hardlock your opponent out of the game, but it is mainly about the tempo-advantage it gives you, keeping cards like Daze and Spell Pierce alive for a longer period of the game.
It's not meant to screw your opponent. It's nice when that pans out, but most of the time it's just about the strain on the mana. I've won plenty of games and matches against Czech Pile simply because Wasteland allows me to control whether they can cast their BB spells like Marsh Casualties, Hymn, Liliana or cut their red mana for Kolaghan's Command or green Mana for Leo and Abrupt Decay. At the same time pretty much any relevant spell costs 3 Mana, and having Wasteland to maintain Daze's value here is key. Czech Pile is a prime example for a matchup where you'd want 4. Same is true for Dark Dephts decks where you definitely want 4 despite them being able to shut it off with Needle, but it's pretty much the only way to interact with the combo in a meaningful way.

I think you should play 4. On the long run it will win you more games than it will lose you games.

[JackaBo]

I ran Grixis in a local tournament with 35-40 people this weekend.
Deck was Huang-esque with the black sideboard but only 1 edict/1 marsh casualties and instead 1 flusterstorm and 1 winter orb. Both good changes given the actual meta.

1-1-1 vs miracle
Winter orb won me game 2 and might've game 3 had we had the time.
2-1 turbo depths
Won both games with fast clock and a bunch of wastelands plus a timely abdede for needle.

2-0 vs omnitell
Easy match up

2-0 4c delver
Going under BUG is a strong plan. I took the aggro role and wasted him off red so he couldnt deal with my threats.

1-2 vs spiraltide
I was so unfortunate this match. After winning G1 with double fow i surgicalked high tide G2. Then he fetched hightide with wish but was hellbent. He rips spiral and goes off, facing lethal.
G3 i keep a one-lander with DRS and delver and 2x BS. I fetch for ugs and deploy delver. Instead of deploying DRS next turn i BS for a land twice finding nothing. When he goes off pyroblast is stuck in my hand which would have won me the game. I guess lesson is to always play DRS first versus combo decks if you have a mana light hand.

1-2 vs miracle
Won G2 on pure delver hand. G3 was close thanks to Liliana otlh but he digged through a bunch of cards and finally found councils judgement.

If you're in a controling meta i can recommend winter orb. It's even better in grixis than in RUG thanks to DRS.

[Nonbo]

I've been bleeding win % in delver mirrors lately. I've found myself losing wasteland battles and unable to find timely threats or removal while my it seems like my opponent always has it. My general game plan is to be proactive about finding lands and not getting wastelanded out in the first few turns and either riding an early peezy or delver to the win or gridning out a longer game with angler/tnn.

In game 1s I think I'm losing value with FoW. I tend to try to reserve it for big threats like TNN/Angler/Goyf/lilly but if I lose with force in hand it's definitely worse than an early 2 for 1. I also may be losing value with ponders, I tend to be willing to draw 2 medium-to-bad cards if there's one I really want.

I'm on the 2 pierce list with the following SB plan for grixis
-4 FoW
+Grim Lavamancer
+1 Pyroblast
+dismember
+K Command

Thanks for any advide

[wcm8]

Some tech I've been testing with:

1. Leovold, Emissary of Trest slots nicely into the sideboard. 1-2 copies are worth running to mess with decks that rely on cantrips or drawing a ton of cards. But even against a deck like D&T he's pretty good since he can help mitigate StP and Rishadan Port. I am undecided if he should actually take the mainboard slots currently occupied by TNN and send TNN to the board -- since generally Leo is better against more random matchups, especially combo... but on the other hand, TNN is amazing at getting in there for the last couple points of damage. Perhaps a 1/1 split? With DRS, it's not usually too difficult to meet the color requirements of casting him, and against any deck without Wasteland you can fairly safely fetch out your lone Tropical Island as needed.

Note that I also like to run Kolaghan's Command in this deck -- 1-2 copies somewhere in the 75 really helps give you the edge against other Delver decks. These cards push the deck towards playing a little bit more like 4C Control in the mid-game, except you're playing a more focused and aggressive early tempo game.

2. Bitterblossom -- mainly considered for the comeback of Miracles. This makes it so that they have a difficult time answering all of your threats, and if it goes completely unanswered for awhile, the damage from the tokens quickly escalates. It's also not too bad against other creature and midrange decks, as providing chump blockers and some evasive attackers can help win in a stalled ground state. Might also be worth bringing in against Turbo Depths, as having blockers for Marit Lage can buy you some time to find Diabolic Edict.

[Sasan]

Some tech I've been testing with:

1. Leovold, Emissary of Trest slots nicely into the sideboard. 1-2 copies are worth running to mess with decks that rely on cantrips or drawing a ton of cards. But even against a deck like D&T he's pretty good since he can help mitigate StP and Rishadan Port. I am undecided if he should actually take the mainboard slots currently occupied by TNN and send TNN to the board -- since generally Leo is better against more random matchups, especially combo... but on the other hand, TNN is amazing at getting in there for the last couple points of damage. Perhaps a 1/1 split? With DRS, it's not usually too difficult to meet the color requirements of casting him, and against any deck without Wasteland you can fairly safely fetch out your lone Tropical Island as needed.

Note that I also like to run Kolaghan's Command in this deck -- 1-2 copies somewhere in the 75 really helps give you the edge against other Delver decks. These cards push the deck towards playing a little bit more like 4C Control in the mid-game, except you're playing a more focused and aggressive early tempo game.

2. Bitterblossom -- mainly considered for the comeback of Miracles. This makes it so that they have a difficult time answering all of your threats, and if it goes completely unanswered for awhile, the damage from the tokens quickly escalates. It's also not too bad against other creature and midrange decks, as providing chump blockers and some evasive attackers can help win in a stalled ground state. Might also be worth bringing in against Turbo Depths, as having blockers for Marit Lage can buy you some time to find Diabolic Edict.

Bitterblossom can also be a main deck choice as a one-off while cutting one Young Pyromancer. Especially if you play with Spell Snares in the main deck instead of Spell Pierces your mirror matchup does not get worse with Bitterblossom and your control matchup highly improves.

[IamHANDSOME]

To the very very experienced Grixis players: How is our matchup against Storm variants like TES and ANT? Would you rather run 2 Spell Pierce or 2 Cabal Therapy mainboard against Storm? Also how good is Cabal Therapy in general? Against which decks do you want to see it often? Against which decks is therapy only okay and which decks is it bad? How does it come that players prefer 2 Spell Pierce over 2 Cabal Therapy main? Can somebody give me a little analysis on it pls :)

[bamannov]

To the very very experienced Grixis players: How is our matchup against Storm variants like TES and ANT? Would you rather run 2 Spell Pierce or 2 Cabal Therapy mainboard against Storm? Also how good is Cabal Therapy in general? Against which decks do you want to see it often? Against which decks is therapy only okay and which decks is it bad? How does it come that players prefer 2 Spell Pierce over 2 Cabal Therapy main? Can somebody give me a little analysis on it pls :)

I've picked up Grixis Delver after a couple of years of not playing Legacy seriously and have found the deck has such a solid matchup against such a wide amount of the field. To that point, I find 2 pierce vs 2 Cabal Therapy or whatever you want to play in the "flex" spots is very much open to how the current/your local metagame is structured and how you want to attack it.

I personally find Spell Pierce weak in the current "metagame" (I'm basing the metagame on the most popular decks: http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE) and prefer to have one Cabal Therapy main. I find it is much stronger in the Mirror Match, games focusing on sticking more threats than them and Czech Pile. The deck doesn't have a lot removal and so it acts like another removal spell (compared to spell pierce.)...while still great game vs Combo or Miracles. I'm currently enjoying a 1 Forked Bolt /1 Therapy /1 Pyroblast split maindeck that gives you a lot of game vs Czech, Mirror, D&T, Combo.

So questions for the everyone here:

- My local metagame doesn't have anyone playing Turbo Depths and I need to test that matchup much more. Anyone have general thoughts on this matchup?
- I would like to explore more creature shells outside of the current Bob Huang-style. Anyone playing anything vastly different than the current popular (3 Young Pyro / 2 Angler / 2 TNN)?

[Hanni]

I would like to explore more creature shells outside of the current Bob Huang-style. Anyone playing anything vastly different than the current popular (3 Young Pyro / 2 Angler / 2 TNN)?

My list is pretty far off of the beaten path, but I don't mind sharing it. It's basically a cross between RUG Delver and Grixis Delver:

Lands (18)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Price of Progress
1 Pithing Needle

[rhames]

Hi,

is anyone of you attending GP in Birmingham later this year?

If so and is willing to co-work on the best list for expected metagame... help would be appreciated. Ideally the output would be a sideboarding manual for expected metagame.

Now I am testing this Oliver Tomajko´s list, which is from some SCG tournament in US

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118622

[TruKnightmare]

Hi,

is anyone of you attending GP in Birmingham later this year?

If so and is willing to co-work on the best list for expected metagame... help would be appreciated. Ideally the output would be a sideboarding manual for expected metagame.

Now I am testing this Oliver Tomajko´s list, which is from some SCG tournament in US

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118622

It’s hard to tell you what the “best list” is. lewiscbr has had success with Stifles despite everybody knowing he’s playing them lol. I recently Top 4’ed a City Champs with them as well but that was more because I’m sure people weren’t expecting them. Lots of players have had success with the “double Spell Pierce” version. I Day 2’ed the DC Open with it. My favorite is the Therapy version because Pyromancer + Therapy can be back breaking.

Back in January, I streamed myself adjusting Grixis Delver for what I thought the online meta would be. It might be slightly outdated but it might provide some insight that you’re looking for.

https://youtu.be/P3NdFtqbZfw

Also, here’s the list and sideboarding guide I used for the Legacy City Champs I just played in.... ignore the Mono-Red guide at the end lol I let a friend borrow the deck and he had no idea how to play it well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qWkzBmcNfCQUdJJE3q9qLZLloVganph7A4uWR-8wJus

[TruKnightmare]

Here’s a quick tournament report for Chandler City Champs from two weekends ago when I played Grixis Delver (Stifle)

Round 1: (1-0) 2-0 D&T. I drew great. He didn't.

Round 2: (1-1) 0-2 UR Delver. I drew one threat in both games.

Round 3: (2-1) 2-1 Grixis Delver. All three games were Wasteland parties. TNN + Jitte in G2 and G3 won it.

Round 4: (3-1) 2-1 ANT. Bluffs + a clock won these.

Round 5: (4-1) 2-0 Burn. Protected a Delver while countering everything won this. G2, facing lethal next turn, I made Elementals with "Bolt. Hold priority, Daze my Bolt. Hold priority, Daze my Daze." And swung lethal my next turn.

Round 6: (5-1) 2-1 Elves (camera). I <3 Gitaxian Probe

Quarterfinals: 2-0 W vs Eldrazi Ramp. Wastelanding the Ramp deck works.

Semi-Finals: 0-2 L vs Goblins (camera). Both hands were keepable but struggled to get the mana I needed both games.


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[IamHANDSOME]

how does the stifle list performs agaist miracles? any better than the normal version since stifle can couter miracle?

[Kylis]

how does the stifle list performs agaist miracles? any better than the normal version since stifle can couter miracle?

Stifle is great against Miracles since it's basically the only land disruption available in the MU other than random wastelands on Tundra if they'll need to play it early on (only duals in starting hand etc). Problem with stifle is that if you happen to get a blowout with it in G1 your opponent will play around it in G2&3. Boarding them out after winning a game with stifle is important because your opponent will play around it and will not make optional fetchland activations when you have mana open. It's also important to run at least 3 Pyromancers against Miracles, since it's the best threat in the MU.

[grimfield]

I played the following to 11th place at SCG Worcester:

Creatures: 13
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Young Pyromancer

Instants + Sorceries: 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Lands: 18
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Cabal Therapy

I have always been a RUG delver player, and stifle was quite good all weekend. From randomly manascrewing my opponents (coincidentally my favorite way to win) to dealing with planeswalkers and engineered explosives, I wasn’t upset to see it most of the time. Especially in the mirror, it helped in low resource games. I was 4-0 in the mirror over the weekend. If people are prepared it won’t be as good, but most people were on pierce + additional creatures.

I guess I missed the memo where people switched to 3 sea and 2 volcanics; however, I didn’t run any BB spells in the 75. If you aren’t on casualties, I feel like access to R is more important than B, especially game 1. I had previously been running blazing volley in the board but cut it for this event. My setup is more focused on delver wins than drs grinding. Having a second gurmag is probably right, though only having one delve threat ensured I was able to cast it whenever I had it.

The SB was pretty standard. Standout cards were definitely Jitte and PoP. Most opponents didn’t expect these cards and they won me many games. Cabal therapy was not great for me over the weekend. I only faced combo a single time, so it is probably still worth it. Clique is a card that has fallen out of favor and I’m not sure is correct. I was able to use it on a terminus, and it served as an extra creature in removal heavy matchups. Having an extra evasive threat helped me beat abzan 2x and maverick. TNN would probably have gotten there as well.


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[IamHANDSOME]

nice list. how did you like 3 Pyromancer and 1 Angler/1 TNN ?? Would you consider to play only 2 Pyro and 2 Gurmag ? Did you miss the 2. TNN ? Im currently working on a pretty similiar list like yours and can never decide between those creatures.

[EronRelentless]

Hey folks.
I am searching for testing partners on MTGO for the Mirror Match. As I am not confident with my current win rate, I'd like to improve my chances by having a testing Set of about 10 Matches in a row.

If you are interested and have time in the next 48 hours to do that you can PM me.

[Yakuza84]

Hi everyone,

Lurking the forum for a long time but it's time show myself :smile:

I decided to start playing Grixis Delver and have seen a lot versions of this deck. At the moment mostly we can see standard shell with 2x TNN, 2x Gurmag, 2x Spell Pierce and 1x Forked Bolt.

I thought about playing version with Stifles but have seen this is not popular build any more. I even heard from my group that it should be full play-set or none. Is it true?

Also there is a switch from 3x Volcanic and 2x US towards 3x US and 2x Volcanic. Am I correct that having 3x US is because of our DRSs?

[IamHANDSOME]

Hi everyone,

Lurking the forum for a long time but it's time show myself :smile:

I decided to start playing Grixis Delver and have seen a lot versions of this deck. At the moment mostly we can see standard shell with 2x TNN, 2x Gurmag, 2x Spell Pierce and 1x Forked Bolt.

I thought about playing version with Stifles but have seen this is not popular build any more. I even heard from my group that it should be full play-set or none. Is it true?

Also there is a switch from 3x Volcanic and 2x US towards 3x US and 2x Volcanic. Am I correct that having 3x US is because of our DRSs?

There a good lists with Stifle, it is just not as popular because Spell Pierce seems to be better against 4c control builds. But if the meta goes more into Miracles and mirrors running 3 Stifles can be very good. The point with the lands is it depends on your Sideboard. If you play 3 Cabal Therpay, Liliana the Last Hope and Marsh Casualties you need BB so you have to play 3 Underground Seas. If you play more Pyroblast/REB, Izzet Staticaster and Grim Lavamancer you definitely play more red spells so go for 3 Volcanics.
I play the deck with Stifle and I like it more than more creatures and Spell Pierce, but sometimes you lack speed when being on the draw and not finding real good targets for Stifle. So it has pros and cons. Try both and you will see what you prefer.

Also one of the strongest play you can do with the Stifle list is: T1 Shaman, T2 second land, Pyromancer, Probe and leaving 1 land open to Stifle your opponent. This allready flooded you the entire board in that early stage of the game with 2 Tokens, if you also have a Daze/FoW in your hand which you can use you are about to make 7 damage T3 which is pretty awesome (5 on the board +2 from Shaman ping). I currently try to play 3 Pyro/2 Angler/1 TNN instead of 2/2/2.

[Yakuza84]

Nad what about playing 2x Stiffle nad 2x Spell Pierce? Does it have any sense or shoud I stay with one of the options? Also any ideas for SB against mirror and 4c?

[xix]

Edit: ty for advice found TNN,

only highlight of day is getting Liliana last hope emblam, and getting hit with 5 sweepers in a row before entreat off top. (was back to basic locked after I cast lili, term killed drs)

[EronRelentless]

Quick question, going to a 5k tomorrow.

Running LewisCBR's Stifle list https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/LewisCBR (mostly) I likely won't find a second TNN to borrow, do I run 1 Leovold/ V. Clique/ #3 YP in the spot, mostly unknown meta, expecting 5-10 SnS, 3 Lands, 4 Storm, ~8 Miracles/ 4c and 100 more, the testing I got in was not conclusive, Leo maybe too cute, but I normally play 4c so I am biased.

SB plan so far:

3 cabal therapy
1 Flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 surgical
1 ancient grudge
1 diabolic edict
2 marsh casualties

+2 other cards from
k.command
abrade
lost hope
V. Clique
Edict #2



Thanks,

Don't run Leovold in this Deck unless you are playing 19 Lands and the second Tropical. If you really can't get a TNN I would suggest to play a third Pyromancer or a third Gurmag Angler in this Slot instead.

In the Sidebaord slot I would really like a Abrade or even a second Ancient Grudge, for destroying Chalice of the Voids and Equipments.

[EronRelentless]

Hey folks.
I am searching for testing partners on MTGO for the Mirror Match. As I am not confident with my current win rate, I'd like to improve my chances by having a testing Set of about 10 Matches in a row.

If you are interested and have time in the next 48 hours to do that you can PM me.

I am still searching for a routined Grixis Delver player who is testing the Mirror Match with me. I would like to make at least 5-10 Matches in a row.

[JackaBo]

Top8:ed small tournament today with Grixis.
I ran the Huang 60, but with the following board given our pretty controlly meta:
2 Pyroblast
2 Surigcal extraction
3 Cabal therapy
2 Ancient grudge
1 Liliana OTLH
1 Marsh casualties
1 Diabolic edict
1 Flusterstorm
1 Winter orb (!)
1 Counterbalance (!!)

Beat
TES (2-0)
Grixis control (2-0)
4c Leo (2-1)
UR delver (2-1)
Then double ID:ed into top8

Then lost to another UR Delver 0-2

I boarded CB every game :) Guess i'm miracle at heart.
Would be happy for help on the UR delver MU. Or is it just bad?

[AnziD]

I am still searching for a routined Grixis Delver player who is testing the Mirror Match with me. I would like to make at least 5-10 Matches in a row.


Reach out to VedX on MTGO.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Top8:ed small tournament today with Grixis.

:Report:

Would be happy for help on the UR delver MU. Or is it just bad?

Congrats on your finish! Assuming the version of UR you are referencing is the prowess version with Stormchasers over Pyromancers, the matchup can be tough for Grixis because Grixis is naturally slower and more attrition based than UR Delver. Speed is a huge factor in Delver mirrors because getting tempo early can lead to big advantages. Having played this matchup from both sides many times I can say that UR is favoured, but not by a lot. You want to keep your creatures on the board and try to keep your opponent's creatures off the board. Having Young Pyromancer on the board for a couple turns or getting an early Gurmag Angler can put you far ahead and are your best way of keeping up on board. Really what you have to do is try to keep the board relatively even and try to keep your life total padded and, because Grixis's card quality is much higher than UR's, you should just be able to ride out your better cards in the later game. Another thing you can do is keep Wastelands around. Don't over commit your lands and don't get too greedy with Wasteland, always keep Price of Progress in mind, because that is how UR Delver is able to steal a lot of games.

[NedB37]

Went 2-3 at the weekend in a 17 person tournament. My first event outside of an FNM style setting so, definitely different and learned a lot!

Was running the two pierce list with 3 pyro and, because I was expecting D&T/Elves, I went 3 sea to help with boarding in Marsh casualties etc..

What I actually encountered was a lot of the mirror floating round! My losses were 4c deathblade (batterskull on true name = game over), a mirror match and Lands. I beat the mirror and miracles.

Had a load of fun and came close vs lands and the mirror. Met some great people, too!

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[Yakuza84]

Just thinking how list with 2x SP and 1x Forked bolt can fight Lands or Turbo Depths if any. Aside from Stiffles how can we stop t2 Marit Lage preboard? Only wastelands?

[EronRelentless]

Just thinking how list with 2x SP and 1x Forked bolt can fight Lands or Turbo Depths if any. Aside from Stiffles how can we stop t2 Marit Lage preboard? Only wastelands?

The Turbo Depths Matchup is actually even, you sometimes can Wasteland his Depths Copy with the Sac trigger on the Stack, you don't need to aggressively kill it or the Depths without any reason. On the other Hand you have a decent clock and Delver can Block Marit Lage if he doesn't search for Seriji Steppe.

In my Sideboard I play 2 Diabolic Edicts, that helps a lot against Marit Lages.

Lands is a pretty bad Matchup and you should not spend any Slots for this Matchup.

[Yakuza84]

The only thing which is coming on my mind could be Needle (to hit his Depths or Tespian's Stage) or Bitterblossom to produce an army of flying blockers while waiting for Diabolic Edict.

Still my meta is quite diversified and the most difficult matches are 4c on Duck and UR Delver (ultra fast clock). Want to try list without stifles so we will see.

[JackaBo]

Congrats on your finish! Assuming the version of UR you are referencing is the prowess version with Stormchasers over Pyromancers, the matchup can be tough for Grixis because Grixis is naturally slower and more attrition based than UR Delver. Speed is a huge factor in Delver mirrors because getting tempo early can lead to big advantages. Having played this matchup from both sides many times I can say that UR is favoured, but not by a lot. You want to keep your creatures on the board and try to keep your opponent's creatures off the board. Having Young Pyromancer on the board for a couple turns or getting an early Gurmag Angler can put you far ahead and are your best way of keeping up on board. Really what you have to do is try to keep the board relatively even and try to keep your life total padded and, because Grixis's card quality is much higher than UR's, you should just be able to ride out your better cards in the later game. Another thing you can do is keep Wastelands around. Don't over commit your lands and don't get too greedy with Wasteland, always keep Price of Progress in mind, because that is how UR Delver is able to steal a lot of games.

Thanks! I guess i will have to practice it more. One thing i felt unsure of was when i would dare to bolt a swiftspear and even more so a stormchaser, as they can pump them with instants. I also boarded out probes as i felt they were aiding the burn plan. Perhabs info is still more valuable.

[VedX]

The Turbo Depths Matchup is actually even, you sometimes can Wasteland his Depths Copy with the Sac trigger on the Stack, you don't need to aggressively kill it or the Depths without any reason. On the other Hand you have a decent clock and Delver can Block Marit Lage if he doesn't search for Seriji Steppe.

In my Sideboard I play 2 Diabolic Edicts, that helps a lot against Marit Lages.

Lands is a pretty bad Matchup and you should not spend any Slots for this Matchup.

I saw that you wanted to play Delver mirrors, give me a message if you wanted to play at all.

[EronRelentless]

I saw that you wanted to play Delver mirrors, give me a message if you wanted to play at all.

Replied to your post earlier the day with a PM.

[Jsang]

Could anyone post an invitation link for Grixis delver's discord channel? Thanks!

[RankaLee]

The Turbo Depths Matchup is actually even, you sometimes can Wasteland his Depths Copy with the Sac trigger on the Stack, you don't need to aggressively kill it or the Depths without any reason. On the other Hand you have a decent clock and Delver can Block Marit Lage if he doesn't search for Seriji Steppe.

In my Sideboard I play 2 Diabolic Edicts, that helps a lot against Marit Lages.

Lands is a pretty bad Matchup and you should not spend any Slots for this Matchup.

Hi im pretty new to grixis delver can you please explain how the stack with wasteland works with DD combo ? Thanks!

[Yakuza84]

Would like to hear that as well. How wasteland interacts with DD or fetchlands? Can we crack it in response? Same with Tespian's stage.

[Adan]

1-2 vs spiraltide
I was so unfortunate this match. After winning G1 with double fow i surgicalked high tide G2. Then he fetched hightide with wish but was hellbent. He rips spiral and goes off, facing lethal.

Did he run 1 High Tide in the sideboard or did you get yourself cheated on there?


Would like to hear that as well. How wasteland interacts with DD or fetchlands? Can we crack it in response? Same with Tespian's stage.

The Dark Dephts combo with Thespian stage works as follows:

1) Thespian Stage is activated and targets Dark Depths to copy it. At this point, you may use Wasteland to destroy either of them. This will interrupt the combo but he will keep one piece.

2) Thespian Stage successfully copies Dark Dephts. That player now controls 2 copies of Dark Dephts, one with counters and one without. He immediately has to apply the legend rule and must choose to keep the Dark Dephts without counters.

3) There is now a Dark Dephts copy without counters. This copy triggers. The wording of the card says "when this card does not have any counters on it, sacrifice it. If you do, create a 20/20". This "IF YOU DO" clause is extremely important. Because at this point, you can activate Wasteland to destroy the Dark Dephts before the above mentioned trigger resolves. The opponent can't sacrifice the Dark Dephts anymore and thus won't get the 20/20. This works with a bounce spell as well (although it is more likely that you'll simply bounce the token).

Fetchlands' mode of action is different, you won't really have a way to destroy a fetchland in a meaningful manner with Wasteland.

[Yakuza84]

Thanks. So does it means he can crack his fetchland in response to our wasteland but we cant, right?

[NedB37]

In my Sideboard I play 2 Diabolic Edicts, that helps a lot against Marit Lages.

Lands is a pretty bad Matchup and you should not spend any Slots for this Matchup.

Yeah, i had one in (went down from 2 shortly before the tournament but, going back up to 2!). It was a pretty rough game but went 2-1 so wasn't a total wipe out. Marit Lage and Loam/Punishing Fire are hard enough to deal with but they boarded in Tireless Trackers as well. Not every day you come across that deck though and would have expected to see Turbo Depths over Lands purely from a cost perspective. I also aggressively mulled looking for answers but, maybe shouldn't have(?), unsure. Still, it was a learning experience!

Also in the mirror loss i had, they surgically extracted my Seas, then Wasted a Volc just as i happened to have two copies of March Causalities in hand. Sometimes it just doesn't go your way!

[IamHANDSOME]

Thanks! I guess i will have to practice it more. One thing i felt unsure of was when i would dare to bolt a swiftspear and even more so a stormchaser, as they can pump them with instants. I also boarded out probes as i felt they were aiding the burn plan. Perhabs info is still more valuable.

I am playing Ur Delver for a long time now and had a lot of matches against Grixis Delver. It is most of the time 50:50, still I personally won more matches then lost against Grixis. It depends on who is on the play and also how aggressive Ur is able to play while fetching on basics. So Ur can:
1. outrace Grixis with creatures AND burn
2. have practically a deck full of removal spells which deal with your creatures
3. being able to fetch on basic lands which gives you dead Wastelands

If it comes to an topdeck situation Ur will loose in 70-80% of the time. In the early turns it depends on how much removal spells (burn) Ur finds for Shaman, Delver and Pyromancer and how fast Ur races Grixis with PoP + Fireblast finishers. Playing YP instead of Stormchaser in Ur Delver helps a lot in this matchup since it can flood the board and stall out Gurmag Angler.

As Grixis you should aggressively use your counter spells in the early turns and focus on dealing with their creatures first (Bolt instead of Shaman as an answer to their Delver T1 can be quite good!). If you CAN waste them do it fast. You cannot imagine how many times you hold a 1 land hand with Ur which allows you to do anything you want. Being wasted can be absolutely crucial since you can not search for an other land. Otherwise fetch your Wastelands away with Brainstorm and Ponder if possible. Ur plays way more risky I would say and you have to punish that. If you dealt with their stuff in the first 3-4 turns, brainstorming later into an TNN or Gurmag Angler the game becomes much easier for you.

edit: Probes are really not THAT great against Ur. If you play 4 Probes you should board out something like 3 Forces and 1-2 Probes depending on how many cards you have in your sideboard.

[JackaBo]

I am playing Ur Delver for a long time now and had a lot of matches against Grixis Delver. It is most of the time 50:50, still I personally won more matches then lost against Grixis. It depends on who is on the play and also how aggressive Ur is able to play while fetching on basics. So Ur can:
1. outrace Grixis with creatures AND burn
2. have practically a deck full of removal spells which deal with your creatures
3. being able to fetch on basic lands which gives you dead Wastelands

If it comes to an topdeck situation Ur will loose in 70-80% of the time. In the early turns it depends on how much removal spells (burn) Ur finds for Shaman, Delver and Pyromancer and how fast Ur races Grixis with PoP + Fireblast finishers. Playing YP instead of Stormchaser in Ur Delver helps a lot in this matchup since it can flood the board and stall out Gurmag Angler.

As Grixis you should aggressively use your counter spells in the early turns and focus on dealing with their creatures first (Bolt instead of Shaman as an answer to their Delver T1 can be quite good!). If you CAN waste them do it fast. You cannot imagine how many times you hold a 1 land hand with Ur which allows you to do anything you want. Being wasted can be absolutely crucial since you can not search for an other land. Otherwise fetch your Wastelands away with Brainstorm and Ponder if possible. Ur plays way more risky I would say and you have to punish that. If you dealt with their stuff in the first 3-4 turns, brainstorming later into an TNN or Gurmag Angler the game becomes much easier for you.

edit: Probes are really not THAT great against Ur. If you play 4 Probes you should board out something like 3 Forces and 1-2 Probes depending on how many cards you have in your sideboard.

That's some great advice! Thanks.

[Yakuza84]

I'm after few matches with Lands and UR Delver. As for UR its an even play (as long as you can survive first 2-3 turns and wipe his manabase) as for Lands its a nightmare.

We have been testing decks pre-board and this was a festival of returning wastelands and/or maze of ith play. Most scary is Life from the Loam as even countered its keeping returning with more wastelands.

If we would SB I would put:

+2 Surgical, +2 Price of Progress, +1 Needle
-4 FoW, -1 Probe or Daze

[IamHANDSOME]

I'm after few matches with Lands and UR Delver. As for UR its an even play (as long as you can survive first 2-3 turns and wipe his manabase) as for Lands its a nightmare.

We have been testing decks pre-board and this was a festival of returning wastelands and/or maze of ith play. Most scary is Life from the Loam as even countered its keeping returning with more wastelands.

If we would SB I would put:

+2 Surgical, +2 Price of Progress, +1 Needle
-4 FoW, -1 Probe or Daze

This belongs more into the Ur Thread doesn't it? When comparing Ur to Grixis Delver against Lands I would say playing Ur Delver is MUCH easier, more efficient, faster and the whole matchup should be better. I mean you can race preboard incredibly fast with Swiftspears and Delvers and PoP hits minimum for what... 6... 8 ?? Thats most of the time gg. Postboard with Ur you bring in: Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Vapor Snag, Surgicals, Needle. This should be enough to win somehow. For Grixis its kind of tough. I mean Diabolic Edict is powerful but Lands can cut Grixis very easy from black and without Shaman it can be quite hard.

[Yakuza84]

I probably put this a wrong way. I played with both Lands and UR Delver with my Grixis Delver deck. Just thinking how to protect our manabase as it seems to be very fragile. Blasting out my two Volcanics disables my removal (lightning and forked bolts), pyromancers and potential SB cards. Still thinking about 3 copies of Stifle but this will shift me more from aggro to control and Im still hear that I should drop this idea.

[ironclad8690]

It's all about playing whatever fits your playstyle. Give stifle a try.

As for the manabase I don't really experience problems. You can still cast DRS off U Sea to make red. Of course, things can go very south in the lands matchup where they get P fire + Grove and wastelock, but you probably aren't winning that one no matter how you build your delver deck.

[ironclad8690]

Check out the 1st page of the primer guys, I updated it with Bob Huang's thoughts about matchups after SCG Wor.

[JackaBo]

Check out the 1st page of the primer guys, I updated it with Bob Huang's thoughts about matchups after SCG Wor.

Great!
A friend mine were tslking about a B Huang stream and that Bobs sideboarding were eye-opening. Anyone know of this stream?

[ironclad8690]

Great!
A friend mine were tslking about a B Huang stream and that Bobs sideboarding were eye-opening. Anyone know of this stream?

https://www.twitch.tv/griselpuff/videos/all

[ironclad8690]

Updated the primer with links to videos and articles.

[JackaBo]

https://www.twitch.tv/griselpuff/videos/all

Thanks. But there's no actual delver video there. The one titled grixis delver is actually some modern griselbrand deck.

[grimfield]

Thanks. But there's no actual delver video there. The one titled grixis delver is actually some modern griselbrand deck.

I played against Bob at scg Worcester (nice guy in person) and I noticed he kept some number of FoW in against me game 3. When I asked him about it he said it was because I was playing stifle.

Admittedly, this was after a game one where he did not get to cast any colored spells save gitaxian probe due to a stifled fetch. As stated in the primer, winning the die roll is very important in the mirror — assuming both pilots are competent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crazy Eddie]

Hi everybody, I was planning on taking Grixis Delver to the Legacy Side Events at coming GP Amsterdam. I've played hardly any Legacy for the last two years (work, kids, etc), but before that I've played RUG Delver for several years until Deathrite's popularity made the deck much worse. So, I'm quite familair with the general Tempo Play, which is one of the reasons to choose Grixis Delver (and owning all the cards helps), and I've read the last pages of this thread. Since Grixis Delver has become quite popular, I was wondering if you have any additional advice for the mirror (especially on the draw), what to sideboard in the mirror, and in general whether to play with or without Stifles.

[Yakuza84]

Playing with or without Stifles is the question Im struggling with since the time I started to collect this deck :wink:

[ironclad8690]

Hi everybody, I was planning on taking Grixis Delver to the Legacy Side Events at coming GP Amsterdam. I've played hardly any Legacy for the last two years (work, kids, etc), but before that I've played RUG Delver for several years until Deathrite's popularity made the deck much worse. So, I'm quite familair with the general Tempo Play, which is one of the reasons to choose Grixis Delver (and owning all the cards helps), and I've read the last pages of this thread. Since Grixis Delver has become quite popular, I was wondering if you have any additional advice for the mirror (especially on the draw), what to sideboard in the mirror, and in general whether to play with or without Stifles.

So in the mirror match I like to sideboard like this:

In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Edict, 2 Pyroblast
Out: 2 Force of Will, 2 Probe, 2 Pierce

I still like having Dazes and a couple FoW to deal with stuff on the stack. You can cut all FoW if you want. From my experience, Daze doesn't really hurt this deck on the draw because most things only cost 1 (compared to something like BUG Delver where the curve is too high to leave all 4 Daze otd).

The casualties are amazing, edict I consider a necessary evil (since it's bad vs pyro tokens), but I like being able to clean up lone anglers or TNNs. Pyroblast is mostly to answer delvers, tnn on stack. If opp has FoW pyro is a blowout. I could see a case for leaving pierce or something instead though.

[Schlaubi]

Hello all!

I have recently started to play Magic again with Legacy being my format of choice. Grixis Delver has been a blast to play thus far. What I am missing is a discussion about the three main variants of Delver that I can identify:

- Stifle (à la LewisCBR)
- Cabal Therapy
and according to recent Top 8ts most successful
- 2 Spell Pierce 15 Creature

Is there an inherent advantage to play 2 Spell Pierces over Stifle and Cabal Therapy or is it that this variant has a more even win percentage against a large field of diverse deck? Every two months there is a medium sized Legacy tournament where I live with lots of Elves, DnT, Maverick and some Sneak and Show, Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Any tips on which version might perform best in that meta? I have been testing on Xmage a lot and all three variants seem to perform very well...

Thanks!
Felix

[Adan]

Hello all!

I have recently started to play Magic again with Legacy being my format of choice. Grixis Delver has been a blast to play thus far. What I am missing is a discussion about the three main variants of Delver that I can identify:

- Stifle (à la LewisCBR)
- Cabal Therapy
and according to recent Top 8ts most successful
- 2 Spell Pierce 15 Creature

Is there an inherent advantage to play 2 Spell Pierces over Stifle and Cabal Therapy or is it that this variant has a more even win percentage against a large field of diverse deck? Every two months there is a medium sized Legacy tournament where I live with lots of Elves, DnT, Maverick and some Sneak and Show, Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Any tips on which version might perform best in that meta? I have been testing on Xmage a lot and all three variants seem to perform very well...

Thanks!
Felix

In an open field, it probably won't matter as the metagame is pretty diverse, but the differences come up more when you are playing local tournaments. There are metagames where Spell Pierce is crap (Elves, Death & Taxes, Eldrazi) and others where you'd prefer to just 1for1 trade a powerful spell with Spell Pierce (against Czech Pile or Reanimator for instance). It also depends on how well you now the decks in your meta. By the end of the day I prefer Spell Pierce, if only to have more blue cards to pitch to Force of Will. Stifle is a LewisCBR thing, probably ask him about that.

But since we are talking about keeping up the pace, can someone enlighted me on the following things that I have seen lately but don't comprehend:

- Price of Progress in some sideboards - is it really against Lands, Eldrazi and Czech Pile? How would you board?
- the black-heavy sideboards (2 Casualties, 1 Lily, 3 U-Sea 2 Volc main) is that a dedication to creature-heavy match-ups like DnT, Elves and the mirrormatch?
- 4 Bomat Courier (as seen here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972126#paper ) Seriously wtf. It's a 1/1 that is brickwalled by Deathrite Shaman in the mirror and basically drops dead against everything. Additionally I'd prioritize every other 1drop before it, so I find it questionable whether it can really generate significant value. And at the same time the list trims down Volcanics to go heavier on black sideboard cards, the deck composition just looks like a mess.

[TruKnightmare]

Is there an inherent advantage to play 2 Spell Pierces over Stifle and Cabal Therapy or is it that this variant has a more even win percentage against a large field of diverse deck? Every two months there is a medium sized Legacy tournament where I live with lots of Elves, DnT, Maverick and some Sneak and Show, Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Any tips on which version might perform best in that meta? I have been testing on Xmage a lot and all three variants seem to perform very well...

Thanks!
Felix

In a known meta game, Cabal Therapies are amazing as you know what to go for every time. Outside of that, it’s personal preference as I’ve seen players be successful with all three versions (I play all three versions, too)


But since we are talking about keeping up the pace, can someone enlighted me on the following things that I have seen lately but don't comprehend:

- Price of Progress in some sideboards - is it really against Lands, Eldrazi and Czech Pile? How would you board?
- the black-heavy sideboards (2 Casualties, 1 Lily, 3 U-Sea 2 Volc main) is that a dedication to creature-heavy match-ups like DnT, Elves and the mirrormatch?
- 4 Bomat Courier (as seen here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/972126#paper ) Seriously wtf. It's a 1/1 that is brickwalled by Deathrite Shaman in the mirror and basically drops dead against everything. Additionally I'd prioritize every other 1drop before it, so I find it questionable whether it can really generate significant value. And at the same time the list trims down Volcanics to go heavier on black sideboard cards, the deck composition just looks like a mess.

Price of Progress: is great against Pile and Lands. Personally, I don’t bring it in against Eldrazi and rely more on Wasteland... unless I have nothing else to bring in. They’re just more aggressive than the other two decks and you run the risk of PoP quickly becoming a dead card.

Double black: Lily the Last Hope is excellent against control decks like Pile and Miracles. I’ve ultimated her plenty of times against them. Marsh Casualties are a hedge for True Name while be great against X/1 creature decks and the mirror.

Bomat Courier: Good on Zan Syed for doing well with this. I’ll pass.

[EronRelentless]

Price of Progress: is great against Pile and Lands. Personally, I don’t bring it in against Eldrazi and rely more on Wasteland... unless I have nothing else to bring in. They’re just more aggressive than the other two decks and you run the risk of PoP quickly becoming a dead card.

I think we should make a difference between Eldrazi Stompy and Eldrazi Post Decks then. Against the fast Eldrazi Decks its very risky to play PoP, but against the Cloudpost Variants it's very safe to bring in and do 4-6 Damage to them.

[TruKnightmare]

I think we should make a difference between Eldrazi Stompy and Eldrazi Post Decks then. Against the fast Eldrazi Decks its very risky to play PoP, but against the Cloudpost Variants it's very safe to bring in and do 4-6 Damage to them.

Oh, I definitely agree. Last time I played against Eldrazi Ramp, it won me the game.

[LucaT]

Hi guys!
I'm new into Grixis. I played for a while the UR Delver version with Young Pyromancer, Stifle and Wasteland.
Now I would like to learn how to play Grixis.
Can anyone explain to me wich start is better in the most common Legacy match-up?
I want to understand WHEN play DTS or DoS on T1.
Maybe already exist a sort of this list in an article or old post in the thread.
Thanks! :D

[EronRelentless]

Hi guys!
I'm new into Grixis. I played for a while the UR Delver version with Young Pyromancer, Stifle and Wasteland.
Now I would like to learn how to play Grixis.
Can anyone explain to me wich start is better in the most common Legacy match-up?
I want to understand WHEN play DTS or DoS on T1.
Maybe already exist a sort of this list in an article or old post in the thread.
Thanks! :D

In my opinion the DRS start is almost always the best start for the Deck, especially if you have Daze and/or Wasteland in your hand. The acceleration is very useful in Turn2 and 3 so it can lead to plays like Turn 2 Pyromancer + Wasteland or Delver, Bolt & Wasteland.

But in general I guess Delver is the better start against Decks where racing matters like Eldrazi or Sneak and Show.

If your opponent plays Cabal Therapy in his Deck it is viable to play the Card which you have more than one in your hand first though.

[bamannov]

I've been exploring various SB strategies vs Miracles to see how we can improve the matchup. It seems the conventional SB plan is to cut almost all FoWs and Dazes.

I'm currently testing cutting some (or all) DRS in favor of keeping in FoW. I feel that many times being able to Force a Teriminus can be back breaking for Miracles.

DRS is always disappointing in the match up... Good vs Snapcaster mage, but a poor clock compared to YP or Delver, the downside is losing a threat and the card disadvantage of FoW (which is why it's normally cut.)

By no means am I saying this is correct...just sharing what I'm testing. Anyone tested this or have thoughts on the above??

EDIT: Also I find Flusterstorm very weak vs Mircales and in everything but combo matchups in general where we are already heavily favored, especially post board. I have been testing 0 Flusterstorm in 75.

[EronRelentless]

I've been exploring various SB strategies vs Miracles to see how we can improve the matchup. It seems the conventional SB plan is to cut almost all FoWs and Dazes.

I'm currently testing cutting some (or all) DRS in favor of keeping in FoW. I feel that many times being able to Force a Teriminus can be back breaking for Miracles.

DRS is always disappointing in the match up... Good vs Snapcaster mage, but a poor clock compared to YP or Delver, the downside is losing a threat and the card disadvantage of FoW (which is why it's normally cut.)

By no means am I saying this is correct...just sharing what I'm testing. Anyone tested this or have thoughts on the above??

EDIT: Also I find Flusterstorm very weak vs Mircales and in everything but combo matchups in general where we are already heavily favored, especially post board. I have been testing 0 Flusterstorm in 75.

In my opinion cutting the Dazes against Miracles is totally fine, regardless if you are on the play or on the draw. I find many Miracles players who actually playing around Daze, when casting Swords to Plowshares on your first Creature in their Turn 2. Like this you still generating tempo, while not having the Card in the Deck anymore. This is a great tempo advantage for us. I usually cut the Forked Bolt als well, since it doesn't kill Mentor reliably and cannot kill Jace once he Brainstorms. Keeping all to 3 Lightning Bolts makes sense, as they give you reach for the late Game and kill Mentor.

I usually only bring in 2 Pyroblast, Flusterstorm when I have it, one Card like Bitterblossom/Liliana/Sulfuric Vortex and 1-2 Surgical Extractions but not Cabal Therapy as Miracles players Hand changes very fast and they have Brainstorm and Flusterstorm to prevent you from Card advantage.

With this Sideboarding strategy I am currently at a even Win Rate against Miracles.

[bamannov]

In my opinion cutting the Dazes against Miracles is totally fine, regardless if you are on the play or on the draw. I find many Miracles players who actually playing around Daze, when casting Swords to Plowshares on your first Creature in their Turn 2. Like this you still generating tempo, while not having the Card in the Deck anymore. This is a great tempo advantage for us. I usually cut the Forked Bolt als well, since it doesn't kill Mentor reliably and cannot kill Jace once he Brainstorms. Keeping all to 3 Lightning Bolts makes sense, as they give you reach for the late Game and kill Mentor.

I usually only bring in 2 Pyroblast, Flusterstorm when I have it, one Card like Bitterblossom/Liliana/Sulfuric Vortex and 1-2 Surgical Extractions but not Cabal Therapy as Miracles players Hand changes very fast and they have Brainstorm and Flusterstorm to prevent you from Card advantage.

With this Sideboarding strategy I am currently at a even Win Rate against Miracles.

Thanks EronRentless! I totally agree with that. I have brought in Cabal Therapy in the past, but it is definitely medium. I take it, you don't cut FoW then?

Btw 50-50 vs Miracles is pretty solid!!

[bamannov]

Hey EronRelentless,

I just noticed this deck on MTGGoldfish. Was this you? Any thoughts to share on that tournament?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1017386#paper

[ironclad8690]

https://i.imgur.com/DkXMKpW.jpg

I think this is what I'm taking to GP Seattle. I have found that I am not good at playing with Spell Pierce, hence Therapy (also the extra removal slots SB are nice).

I like to board into infinite spot removal, especially vs decks like Elves where an easy line is Delver -> Removal or counterspells every turn for the rest of the game (I have a match recorded vs Reid Duke somewhere where this happened).

Here is a mini-sb guide I have been going by:

Mirror:
Out: 2 Cabal Therapy, 4 FoW
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Marsh Casualties, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember

Pile:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Miracles:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast

Storm
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy

Sneak:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict

Reanimator:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict

Lands/Turbo Depths:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Diabolic Edict

Elves:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Death and Taxes:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 1 Gitaxian Probe
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Maverick:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

BUG Delver:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt

Stoneblade:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict

Moon Stompy:
Out: 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Forked Bolt
In: 2 Ancient Grudge

Eldrazi:
Out: 2 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember

Aggro Loam:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt (No surgical, we are not the control deck)

Hope this helps!

[bamannov]

https://i.imgur.com/DkXMKpW.jpg

I think this is what I'm taking to GP Seattle. I have found that I am not good at playing with Spell Pierce, hence Therapy (also the extra removal slots SB are nice).

I like to board into infinite spot removal, especially vs decks like Elves where an easy line is Delver -> Removal or counterspells every turn for the rest of the game (I have a match recorded vs Reid Duke somewhere where this happened).

Here is a mini-sb guide I have been going by:

Mirror:
Out: 2 Cabal Therapy, 4 FoW
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Marsh Casualties, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember

Pile:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Miracles:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast

Storm
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy

Sneak:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict

Reanimator:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Cabal Therapy, 2 Diabolic Edict

Lands/Turbo Depths:
Out: 1 Forked Bolt, 4 Lightning Bolt
In: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Diabolic Edict

Elves:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 True-Name Nemesis
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Death and Taxes:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 1 Gitaxian Probe
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Ancient Grudge, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Maverick:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

BUG Delver:
Out: 4 Force of Will
In: 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt

Stoneblade:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze
In: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Diabolic Edict

Moon Stompy:
Out: 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Forked Bolt
In: 2 Ancient Grudge

Eldrazi:
Out: 2 Force of Will, 2 Daze, 1 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember

Aggro Loam:
Out: 4 Force of Will, 2 Cabal Therapy
In: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Dismember, 1 Forked Bolt (No surgical, we are not the control deck)

Hope this helps!

Thanks for sharing!! I really like the infinite removal you can bring in post board as it helps immensely vs most of the medium/bad matchups. I love the no Flusterstorm as I've been testing without that recently...glad to see another person agreeing.

Some random thoughts on the SB choices:
No Surgical vs Miracles?
No Lily vs Mirror?
How do you feel about Lands matchup without PoP?

[ironclad8690]

Thanks for sharing!! I really like the infinite removal you can bring in post board as it helps immensely vs most of the medium/bad matchups. I love the no Flusterstorm as I've been testing without that recently...glad to see another person agreeing.

Some random thoughts on the SB choices:
No Surgical vs Miracles?
No Lily vs Mirror?
How do you feel about Lands matchup without PoP?

You know, idk about the miracles plan. I think actually you also want to cut a Wasteland for a Cabal Therapy and maybe a Daze for Lili.

I mostly just opt for TNN or Gurmag beats vs Lands, of course a nice DRS or Edict draw can get you there too.

I like to become sleek in the mirror so that I can still try to cast my cards even if i'm mana screwed. Lili didn't fit that plan for me, but if it works for you go for it.

[ironclad8690]

Also I think vs Lands you actually want to cut the therapies and leave 2 bolt. Vs turbo depths maybe cut something for a Grudge to deal with pithing needle.

[bamannov]

Also I think vs Lands you actually want to cut the therapies and leave 2 bolt. Vs turbo depths maybe cut something for a Grudge to deal with pithing needle.

I think the Therapies are fine since you play them maindeck..you just need to name Gamble, the Discard Land-Deal 2 damage Enchantment (can't remember the name.) or Crop Rotation.

I get your point int he Mirror too, my thought is Lily is just another threat that's good to have in the mirror, but it may just be better to stay lean as double black is difficult. I never fetch for the 2nd Sea until I absolutely need to.

[EronRelentless]

Hey.
Since beginning of March I was starting a Spreadsheet of my Tournaments in real life and Leagues on MTGO and at the moment of now I have 269 total games with Grixis Delver within this time.

I mean this is not a crucial sample size by any means, but after one month I was logging each game and kind of procedure I realized, that my Game Win Rate against BR Reanimator differs very high, whether I was on the draw or on the play. There were also 3 Matches against Ewlandon (current Trophy Leader tied with LewisCBR) within, so it means that we don't have to assume the result came against bad players.

Surprisingly my win rate on the draw is way higher than on the play. Currently it looks like this:

On the draw: 84,62% (won 11/13 Games)
On the play: 35,71% (won 5/14 Games)

Sure we have to assume many factors which come together for this, and maybe we should cut the pre boarded Games, to have a clearer view, how the Matchup can play out if both players play with the optimal configuration for the Matchup.

If I look at the post board Games we have a similar view:

On the draw: 100% (won 8/8 Games)
On the play: 44,44% (won 4/9 Games)

If we look at the Matches against Ewlandon we also have an evidence that the result can be better if you be on the draw:

On the draw: 100% (won 3/3 Games)
On the play: 25% (1/4 Games)

If you combine all factors, I know that my Deck configuration (with 2 Spell Pierce) is bad pre board, but If I draw in SB Games I win a high number of times against BR Reanimator.

After all, I am sure this is a much too low sample size for doing strategic moves for all of you players, but it would be nice if you share this idea and discuss about it with your friends, and maybe if we have a much higher amount of data it proves to be correct, what nobody would believe if you tell this to him/her.

As Bryant Cook once proofed that he has a higher win percentage against blue Decks on the draw than on the play and I look at the data above I think that it's generally better for blue Decks to be on the draw against VERY FAST COMBO Decks. I hope to proof this within the next months, as I am planning to play the Deck further. Maybe at end of 2018 we have a bit more data we can assure to.

[bamannov]

Hey.
Since beginning of March I was starting a Spreadsheet of my Tournaments in real life and Leagues on MTGO and at the moment of now I have 269 total games with Grixis Delver within this time.

I mean this is not a crucial sample size by any means, but after one month I was logging each game and kind of procedure I realized, that my Game Win Rate against BR Reanimator differs very high, whether I was on the draw or on the play. There were also 3 Matches against Ewlandon (current Trophy Leader tied with LewisCBR) within, so it means that we don't have to assume the result came against bad players.

Surprisingly my win rate on the draw is way higher than on the play. Currently it looks like this:

On the draw: 84,62% (won 11/13 Games)
On the play: 35,71% (won 5/14 Games)

Sure we have to assume many factors which come together for this, and maybe we should cut the pre boarded Games, to have a clearer view, how the Matchup can play out if both players play with the optimal configuration for the Matchup.

If I look at the post board Games we have a similar view:

On the draw: 100% (won 8/8 Games)
On the play: 44,44% (won 4/9 Games)

If we look at the Matches against Ewlandon we also have an evidence that the result can be better if you be on the draw:

On the draw: 100% (won 3/3 Games)
On the play: 25% (1/4 Games)

If you combine all factors, I know that my Deck configuration (with 2 Spell Pierce) is bad pre board, but If I draw in SB Games I win a high number of times against BR Reanimator.

After all, I am sure this is a much too low sample size for doing strategic moves for all of you players, but it would be nice if you share this idea and discuss about it with your friends, and maybe if we have a much higher amount of data it proves to be correct, what nobody would believe if you tell this to him/her.

As Bryant Cook once proofed that he has a higher win percentage against blue Decks on the draw than on the play and I look at the data above I think that it's generally better for blue Decks to be on the draw against VERY FAST COMBO Decks. I hope to proof this within the next months, as I am planning to play the Deck further. Maybe at end of 2018 we have a bit more data we can assure to.

This is really fascinating... the reasons I can come up with for being on the draw:

1. They don't want to go off turns 2-4 for fear of being blown out by Daze, Spell Pierce.
a.So the extra draws are good:
b. You draw into more answers.

2. This is a two small sample size and it's causing this be very misleading.

Reasons going first against them are:

1. Faster clock with Delver.
2. Daze and spell pierce is very live.
3. You're ahead in tempo.

[EronRelentless]

This is really fascinating... the reasons I can come up with for being on the draw:

1. They don't want to go off turns 2-4 for fear of being blown out by Daze, Spell Pierce.
a.So the extra draws are good:
b. You draw into more answers.

2. This is a two small sample size and it's causing this be very misleading.

Reasons going first against them are:

1. Faster clock with Delver.
2. Daze and spell pierce is very live.
3. You're ahead in tempo.

Well I think it's a misunderstanding of Cards like Daze and Spell Pierce to think, these are not live on the draw in the Matchup. As the Reanimator Deck is really light on mana and every card the player has, it could be an extra Lotus Petal/Dark Ritual and your Daze is a dead Card anyway. I mean it's tempting to dodge the Chancellor, Dark Ritual, Entomb and Reanimation starts if you have Daze Backup and be on the play, but how often do Reanimator players really have this start? I guess we talk about a 1/10 ballpark of the Nutdraw hands, which are really hard to beat even if you are on the play anyway. I would like to enhance the reasons for being on the draw with some arguments.

1. You are more resilient to Mulligan for Hands with heavy interaction
2. You generally have more Cards to recover after a Force of Will start where you might pitch Delver/Ponder/Brainstorm
3. The chance for going off in Turn 1 is slightly lower for the Reanimator player with less crucial Cards for him/her, time is in our favor
4. Your Cabal Therapies get more potent as you have a better chance to draw Probe as well and see their hand to not playing it blind and additionally the Reanimator player need more time to recover from your Therapy, even if the chances for getting a 2for1 with it decreases.

[Luca Grease]

What do you guys think of Noah Walker's GP Seattle manabase with only 7 fetchlands in favor of the 3rd Volcanic Island? A friend of mine had suggested the idea last week and I initially dismissed it out of reverence for the "super established Delver manabase" sacred cow, but seeing Noah making that choice certainly forced me to re-evaluate the idea. 3 Seas 2 Volcs is definitely better than the old 3 Volcs 2 Seas, but still, with the amount of Wastelands being played, only having 2 sources of a certain colour is always going to be a liability in certain matchups. The downside is obviously less shuffle effects and more starting hands where we are stuck with a particular colour of mana, so I'd like to hear other opinions on this...

[IamHANDSOME]

What do you guys think of Noah Walker's GP Seattle manabase with only 7 fetchlands in favor of the 3rd Volcanic Island? A friend of mine had suggested the idea last week and I initially dismissed it out of reverence for the "super established Delver manabase" sacred cow, but seeing Noah making that choice certainly forced me to re-evaluate the idea. 3 Seas 2 Volcs is definitely better than the old 3 Volcs 2 Seas, but still, with the amount of Wastelands being played, only having 2 sources of a certain colour is always going to be a liability in certain matchups. The downside is obviously less shuffle effects and more starting hands where we are stuck with a particular colour of mana, so I'd like to hear other opinions on this...

When I started playing Grixis Delver in October last year I always had a problem running the established 3 Volcanic and 2 Underground Seas because keeping a single Volcanic on your hand doesn't let you cast both of your T1 creatures because Shaman requires B or G which doesn't work with a Volcanic. I changed it to 3 USea and 2 Volcanic back then and was much more statisfied with the build. Still people could cut me from red with only 2 Volcanics so there was this kind of "problem" inside Grixis Delver I never really felt comfortable with the deck and prefered the more aggressive Ur version of it. I also tested the build with the 3/3 split and 7 fetchlands and have to say I rather see a fetchland which let me cast Shaman than a Volcanic which doesn't. Grixis Delver relies much more on UB than on UR so you mainly want to start with an Underground Sea and T2 with an Volcanic which you most of the time digged for with Ponder and Brainstorm. Starting with Volcanic while having Shaman on your hand is NOT how the deck works imho.

[JackaBo]

When I started playing Grixis Delver in October last year I always had a problem running the established 3 Volcanic and 2 Underground Seas because keeping a single Volcanic on your hand doesn't let you cast both of your T1 creatures because Shaman requires B or G which doesn't work with a Volcanic. I changed it to 3 USea and 2 Volcanic back then and was much more statisfied with the build. Still people could cut me from red with only 2 Volcanics so there was this kind of "problem" inside Grixis Delver I never really felt comfortable with the deck and prefered the more aggressive Ur version of it. I also tested the build with the 3/3 split and 7 fetchlands and have to say I rather see a fetchland which let me cast Shaman than a Volcanic which doesn't. Grixis Delver relies much more on UB than on UR so you mainly want to start with an Underground Sea and T2 with an Volcanic which you most of the time digged for with Ponder and Brainstorm. Starting with Volcanic while having Shaman on your hand is NOT how the deck works imho.

I have been playing 7/7 duals and fetches too. I also feels that it's super risky to have all your 5 removal on red and only 2 red sources outside of shaman, especially in the delver mirrors or vs DnT. I haven't really had much problems with running 7 fetches yet but i guess there's a small percentage of worse starting hands. On the other hand 7 actual lands have been solid versus Lands.

[pipet76]

Hi, I'm new to this deck since I mainly play control. So I have a few questions that maybe you can help me figure it out:

1- How do you manage your Dazes postboard. I've heard that on the draw you have to take them all out. Is that so for all matches? Would you keep it against control on the play?
2- What answers do we have to B Moon? It seems like we're unprotected from enchanments.
3- Landwise, is the 2 Seas 3 Volcanic 1 Trop the more stable built. Aren't we better off with 3 seas (meaning more black sources)

Thanks a lot
I'm looking foward to playing this deck

[Luca Grease]

Hi, I'm new to this deck since I mainly play control. So I have a few questions that maybe you can help me figure it out:

1- How do you manage your Dazes postboard. I've heard that on the draw you have to take them all out. Is that so for all matches? Would you keep it against control on the play?
2- What answers do we have to B Moon? It seems like we're unprotected from enchanments.
3- Landwise, is the 2 Seas 3 Volcanic 1 Trop the more stable built. Aren't we better off with 3 seas (meaning more black sources)

Thanks a lot
I'm looking foward to playing this deck

1) Cutting some number of Dazes on the draw in certain matchups is definitely a valid strategy, but you should ALWAYS run the full playset when on the play. EDIT: I still keep mine on the draw in most match-ups, and I would argue that players who always cut all 4 on the draw don't really understand how tempo decks work
2) Counterspells or just riding our board to victory. Deployed Shamans can potentially still produce a limited amount of mana, and you can still cast Force of Will and red spells through Blood Moon. This deck does have few ways to deal with enchantments but with counterbalance mostly gone the only real threat is Blood Moon, and thankfully dedicated Blood Moon decks tend to be inconsistent piles of junk
3) 3 seas 2 volcs has been the standard for a while now. See previous post where I encourage discussion on the merits of 3 and 3

[pipet76]

1) Cutting some number of Dazes on the draw in certain matchups is definitely a valid strategy, but you should ALWAYS run the full playset when on the play. EDIT: I still keep mine on the draw in most match-ups, and I would argue that players who always cut all 4 on the draw don't really understand how tempo decks work
2) Counterspells or just riding our board to victory. Deployed Shamans can potentially still produce a limited amount of mana, and you can still cast Force of Will and red spells through Blood Moon. This deck does have few ways to deal with enchantments but with counterbalance mostly gone the only real threat is Blood Moon, and thankfully dedicated Blood Moon decks tend to be inconsistent piles of junk
3) 3 seas 2 volcs has been the standard for a while now. See previous post where I encourage discussion on the merits of 3 and 3

Thanks for replying Luca.

Could you give me more insight regarding daze post SB, it seems like it's the base of playing tempo.

Do you keep all of them on the draw against tempo or storm? Do you take them all out against control (a lot of people told me to do that, on the draw and on the play)?

[Cave]

Hi, I'm new to this deck since I mainly play control. So I have a few questions that maybe you can help me figure it out:

1- How do you manage your Dazes postboard. I've heard that on the draw you have to take them all out. Is that so for all matches? Would you keep it against control on the play?
2- What answers do we have to B Moon? It seems like we're unprotected from enchanments.
3- Landwise, is the 2 Seas 3 Volcanic 1 Trop the more stable built. Aren't we better off with 3 seas (meaning more black sources)

Thanks a lot
I'm looking foward to playing this deck

1. Follow this priority algorythm, topbottom:

You will never start a game against an unfair deck without 4 copies of daze in your deck, doesn't matter if you're on the play or not;
You can consider taking out some dazes if you're on the play against a fair deck if you have better stuff to put in. However, you should prioritize taking out your forces of will first;
You can consider taking out up to 4 dazes if you're on the draw against a fair deck, if you have better stuff to put in. However, you should prioritize taking out your forces of will first.

I think there are nuances to this, but it's a good start.

2. The answer to question #2 is in answer #1. Dragon Stompy is to be considered an unfair deck, since blood moon resolving early in the game is 95% lights out.
Black, Red and Blue can't destroy enchantments due to color pie still having some relevance in this game (despite tnn). Watcha gonna do. You could argue for SB bounce spells or enchantment removal, but still you'd need an active deathrite for that.

3. Most recent successful lists feature 1 trop 2 volc 3 seas. The reasons for this are: a. That drs start has priority over everything else. b. That sideboard is full of key black cards, sometimes even featuring :b: :b:. Some people are playing 1 trop 1 badlands 2 volc 2 seas. Recent winner of GP seattle was on 1 trop 3 vulc 3 seas with 7 fetches. Those configs can work too I guess.

[Luca Grease]

Do you keep all of them on the draw against tempo or storm? Do you take them all out against control (a lot of people told me to do that, on the draw and on the play)?

I do keep all my dazes on the draw against Storm and tempo. As cave said, you always want 4 against unfair decks, and cheap interaction is critical in tempo mirrors. Not to mention, daze can be used to protect your duals from wasteland in a pinch (just cast an instant and daze it in response by picking up the targeted land, or better yet, see if you can trick him into responding to your instant and daze his spell). It might not feel good and it's usually card disadvantage, but it will keep you in the game.

I do shave a daze or two on the draw against control decks with lots of basic lands such as Miracles or Stoneblade, although cutting all four seems excessive to me: they're still trying to resolve 3 and 4 mana spells after all...
I do NOT cut dazes on the draw against 4c control, as that deck's manabase is all over the place and super vulnerable to Wasteland as long as you can keep DRS off the table.

As I already mentioned, you definitely don't want to cut any number of dazes on the play against either type of deck (or any deck really)

[Tiago]

Hey guys... I stayed almost one year without playing mtg because of studies, work, etc.. Now I am returning and I used to play with grixis, but there are a lot of conversations and especulations around banning shaman. What do you think? If this rumors are true, I guess I will focus on Canadian threshold already. I don't like to use a deck which is in the shadow of a banlist.

[Amazingxkcd]

The deck will more or less stay the same shell (we can cut the trop!) but will get weakeend. It's not like Grixis is the only deck that would get worse from losing DRS. Pyromancers & delve creatures are still very strong

[Tiago]

The deck will more or less stay the same shell (we can cut the trop!) but will get weakeend. It's not like Grixis is the only deck that would get worse from losing DRS. Pyromancers & delve creatures are still very strong

I can't see one reason to continue using grixis delver if DRS get banned. Unless you really like the deck as pet deck.

[Jesture]

I can't see one reason to continue using grixis delver if DRS get banned. Unless you really like the deck as pet deck.

It doesn't seem too crazy, the deck already has so much in common with RUG Delver which is probably the premier Delver deck in the event of a DRS ban. Blue's a must for Delver decks, and red is still strong with Bolt and Pyroblast effects while also leaving room for Pyromancer (admittedly awkward with Stifle, but I'm sure you could finagle the numbers to make it optimal). Black is admittedly worse than green as a creature color, but it does give access to Angler as well as sideboard Therapies if you're playing Pyromancers.

Overall the game plan seems pretty similar to RUG, which I'll admit seems better. But it seems unlikely that DRS-less Grixis has worse matchups across the board when compared to other Delver decks.

[Othersider]

Against Lands, does anyone ever consider running a basic Island? My local meta is heavy on fair decks, so I'm considering replacing the Therapies in my board for a while. Last week I beat Lands, but I might have lost if he hadn't misplayed. He loam-locked me once, and if I'd had an Island in the deck, I could have cast several spells, which might have been enough to make an impact since he took a while to assemble Marit Lage that game. But he had all the time in the world, because I didn't get a 2nd land until the turn he played Depths and Stage. Thoughts on a basic Island in the 75 somewhere?

[JackaBo]

I have a similar question. What do you cut against lands?
I have 4 decent cards to bring in: 2 surgical, 1 edict, 1 winter
Last time i cut 3 bolts + forked
Daze is really poor midgame but if I'm on the play i want to minimize his chances of broken starts.
But I'm beginning to think that bolt may be better than delver in this MU.
Any thoughts?

[LucaT]

Hi to everyone.
I've done this file for side in/out against the most common matchs-up in Legacy.
There are standard choises without OtP or OtD.
Hope it can be useful!

https://image.ibb.co/iCfbj7/Grixis.png


Let me know if you agree with me ;)

[JackaBo]

I have a similar question. What do you cut against lands?
I have 4 decent cards to bring in: 2 surgical, 1 edict, 1 winter
Last time i cut 3 bolts + forked
Daze is really poor midgame but if I'm on the play i want to minimize his chances of broken starts.
But I'm beginning to think that bolt may be better than delver in this MU.
Any thoughts?

Actually I'm thinking -2 probes -1 forked -1 young peezy on the play.

[Druz91]

Hi to everyone.
I've done this file for side in/out against the most common matchs-up in Legacy.
There are standard choises without OtP or OtD.
Hope it can be useful!

https://image.ibb.co/iCfbj7/Grixis.png


Let me know if you agree with me ;)It will take a bit to check all the mus that you wrote, but I found some mistakes here and there.
Consider this notes as a sample, I'll complete them later.

Ant: nemesis is the worst card in this mu here and you didn't include surgical as a side in (particularly strong if you pair it with discard spells) . You can also consider keeping a couple of bolts in order to shorten your clock and a possible answer to pesky creatures (xantid swarm/dark confidant)

Canadian: not boarding flusterstorm and pyroblast in against a deck with Daze and stifle is definitely a wrong choice, if you don't know what to board out just shaving a couple or more copies of force of Will is fine.

Miracles: since the banning of top needle is not a good side in, since the only cards you can name with it (Jace, azcanta and explosives) are not so big deal (especially if you run haymakers like winter orb and those cards requires mana in order to properly work). As I stated about Storm, even here to leave a couple of bolt can help you closing the game outta nowhere and answering Jaces and mentors.

Other adjustments will come soon...

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[jimytuning]

Hi to everyone.
I've done this file for side in/out against the most common matchs-up in Legacy.
There are standard choises without OtP or OtD.
Hope it can be useful!

https://image.ibb.co/iCfbj7/Grixis.png


Let me know if you agree with me ;)


and VS Jund???
Kolaghans Command and Izzet Staticaster are bad cards on our sideboard?

[pipet76]

Hi, I've been testing this deck for a week and basically Probe seems like the hardest card to use:

1 Do you ever board it out? For example against burn or very agressive decks like UR delver?
2 If you're on the draw and you have a Y Pyro and a Probe, do you keep your Probe until Y Pyro is on the table?
3 Post SB, you have Y Pyro, Cabal T and Probe. I'd guess that here we dont wait?
4 I see a lot of SB guides in where we're suppossed to SB out G Angler against Sneak and Show, I see it as a great clock against combo. Is there a reason for ir?

Thanks a lot

[EronRelentless]

Hi, I've been testing this deck for a week and basically Probe seems like the hardest card to use:

1 Do you ever board it out? For example against burn or very agressive decks like UR delver?
2 If you're on the draw and you have a Y Pyro and a Probe, do you keep your Probe until Y Pyro is on the table?
3 Post SB, you have Y Pyro, Cabal T and Probe. I'd guess that here we dont wait?
4 I see a lot of SB guides in where we're suppossed to SB out G Angler against Sneak and Show, I see it as a great clock against combo. Is there a reason for ir?

Thanks a lot
1. Yes, against aggressive Decks where Life total matters you can take out some (Mirror) or all of them (UR Delver, Burn)
2. I am using it regardless of Pyro if I am searching for something like a Daze, otherwise if your play is streamline you can wait one or two Turns to get more info, I really like Probe before the first cantrip
3. It makes sense to wait one Turn if you are planning to the Pyro Cabal Therapy Combo
4. You can cut Angler against Combo Decks if you have better Cards to bring in, but I leave them against ANT and SnT for sure

[pipet76]

Has anyone tried K Command in the SB remplacing the 2nd A Grudge or the Abrade? Or is it to expensive to play?
I think I could do wonder against DnT, Blade, Chalices decks and 4c

[schtormy]

I personally never had great results with kco but I'm a rather average player.

Lewiscbr is lately playing 2 cabals and replacing the 3rd with kco and he said he was really happy with it.

I don't think it's reasonable to cut the Ancient Grudges for Kco as there will be a lot of situations where the extra black mana will make it too expensive if all you want is destroying a chalice for example.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Maelstrom]

Has anyone tried K Command in the SB remplacing the 2nd A Grudge or the Abrade? Or is it to expensive to play?
I think I could do wonder against DnT, Blade, Chalices decks and 4c

I have been playing Grixis Delver for some time and I have tried a lot of different sideboards. I have tried running Abrades, Ancient Grudges and 1 K Command in multiple combinations to see what would be best and what I found was:

The games where you face Chalice of the Void, K Command is too expensive. We can win through a Stoneforge Mystic in other ways than artifact hate, but vs. CoV, Big Eldrazi and so on the Ancient Grudge just shines, because being able to destroy two artifact for 3 mana is just too good. This is also the reason why I went away from Abrade again. Sure dealing 3 damage to a creature is nice but its often irrelevant compared to the flashback utility of Ancient Grudge.

If you wanna run Abrade I would probably swap the MD Forked bolt for it, and if you really wanna try K Command I would swap it for Liliana the Last Hope in the SB.

[JackaBo]

Guys, do you board in therapy against control? I've heard rumors about it but haven't figurer out how you play it.
My peeve is that it's a bad topdeck in a match that might go into late game.
In my LGS there's mostly control (grixis and UW) and Lands are abundant. Thus i never get to board in my 3 therapy and they mostly rot in the sideboard case.
I've been thinking pf swapping the 3rd therapy for a second winter orb (<3) which has applications against both control n lands or a third surgical (decent vs combo) and great vs lands.
Help and advice appreciated.

[JackaBo]

Guys, do you board in therapy against control? I've heard rumors about it but haven't figurer out how you play it.
My peeve is that it's a bad topdeck in a match that might go into late game.
In my LGS there's mostly control (grixis and UW) and Lands are abundant. Thus i never get to board in my 3 therapy and they mostly rot in the sideboard case.
I've been thinking pf swapping the 3rd therapy for a second winter orb (<3) which has applications against both control n lands or a third surgical (decent vs combo) and great vs lands.
Help and advice appreciated.

Fyi my SB is:
3 therapy
2 surgical, REB, edict, artifact hate
1 liliana, casualties, winter orb, flusterstorm

My plan vs grixis control is
-4 fow
-1 bolt
+2 REB
+1 fluster
+1 liliana
+1 winter orb

[Hrothgar]

Invite for Legacy Grixis Delver Discord chat:

https://discord.gg/F64cZk9

Have fun.:wink:

[Ingo]

Check out the 1st page of the primer guys, I updated it with Bob Huang's thoughts about matchups after SCG Wor.

I was browsing through the primer and bumped into this surprising thought of Bob Huang.



4) Lands - Play Edicts/Surgicals, you are quite favored post sb. 55-60%


My personal experience is that Lands is favored, and that the favorable Grixis matchup is one of the reasons to play Lands in the first place.
BUt apparently Bob Huang thinks differently?
How do you guys think about this?

[Yeaux]

I was browsing through the primer and bumped into this surprising thought of Bob Huang.



My personal experience is that Lands is favored, and that the favorable Grixis matchup is one of the reasons to play Lands in the first place.
BUt apparently Bob Huang thinks differently?
How do you guys think about this?

Doesn't Bob Huang usually play 1-2 PoP in his board? I could see winning comfortably if you have PoP in post board games.

[Kingbrago]

Hey guys, my report of GP Birmingham last week end and some thoughts on the deck:


List:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
1 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Side
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extration
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Liliana, the last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Gone
1 Dismember


Thursday: Trials (3-1 and 4-0)

I didn't have enough PW points to get automatic byes for the GP, and I think those are extremely helpfull if you want the best chance to play on day 2 or top 8

Early bird last chance trial

R1 BUG Delver 2-0
I attack his mana game one and have a very aggressive stard game 2 to close the deal. My opponents admits he's playing the deck as it has a good MU against Grixis. I have tested a lot this pseudo-miror and it's true they have backbreaking cards agianst us (Tombstalker, even Goyf and Golgari Charm in the side), they are such less efficient than us that I think this is an even MU

R2 RB Reanumator 2-1
I keep a hand without FoW game 1, he plays a faithless looting and discards 2 grislbrands. I play T1 delver and am able to daze a dark ritual on his T2, but he finds his second land and a ritual+exhume on t3. I win games 2 and 3 without difficulty

R3 Burn 2-0
Always a close MU but definitely winnable

R4 Turbo depth. 0-2
He mulls to 5 on the play and goes T1 Petal > Needle name Wasteland. I have a correct hand going DRS into Delver but draw a lot of lands. Nothing happens as I attack for 4 each turns (no spells to exile) and he finds his lands. Unfortunately, he ends up drawing the combo too quickly. Similar game 2 as I get him down to 1 before getting killed by a 20/20 (I had Waste but he had thespian + vampire to get around that)

As 4-0 was neccesary to get the byes, I immediately play in a second trial:

R1 Esper D&T 2-1
Quite a strange brew, splashing for Phantasmal image, baleful strix and Orzhof Pontif. He wins game 1 by copying TNN with 2 images and I win the other games. He helps me a bit by equiping his Image copying TNN with a Jitte

R2 Punishing Cloudpost 2-0
Very aggressive start game 1 with YP on T2, forcing a Punishing fire and 3 bolts going upstairs. Game 2, wasteland + surgical on cloudpost leaves him with a hand of uncastable spells. He continues playing lands and had 1 turn at 7 mana before getting killed when he couldve played all is dust but fortunately didn't have it.


R3 Storm 2-1
I win game 1, game 2 I force him to go for it quite early. He plays Cabal Ritual into PIF, infernal tutor for LED (I had surgicaled his Dark Rituals earlier) to flashback cantrips. He casts 3 ponders, shuffles, uses his last U mana for a brainstorm and finds exactly Swamp, Petal and the lethal tendrils.
I manage to take G3

R4 Mono Red stompy 2-0
A standard player playing Legacy for the first time. He seems to like the deck a lot, and tells me he hasn't lost a game today. I have good hands to beat him with a good deal of countermagic, but his inexperience of the format makes him play right into my dazes and pierce. I take the games 2-0 but think he couldve won both games with more patience.

4-0 for this second trial grants me 2 byes for the main event

Main event -- Day 1
Byes: 2-0

R3 Death and Taxes 2-1
I lose game 1 with a misply: I remember having a pretty good board, with a DRS and a flipped Delver, a bolt in my hand, and 3 or 4 lands. He only has a Thalia, which I decide to bolt. This was a misplay as I didn't care about the thalia, having plenty of mana, and a bigger board than a 2/1 first strike. This leaves me without answers to a SFM, which he plays a few turns later, and the Batterskull wins him the game.
I win G2 and 3, mostly on the back of Ancient grudge which destroys his equipment plan. I think the only strong plan they have against us is SFM as mana denial is meh with our shamans (or they need RIP or revoker+a strong denial plan)

3-0

R4 Lands 2-0
Very aggressive start game 1, attack for lethal through a Marit lage on the last turn. Game 2 I mull to 5 into SHaman, lands, 2 surgical. Shaman gets Punished and my opponent makes the mistake of activating his grove to get back the fire immediately. So I surgical it. He doesn't have another active plan, I end up drawing wasteland which breaks a stage, and I extract it to win a few turns later

4-0

R5 Storm 2-0
He keeps a 1 land+cantrips hands game 1, which matches up poorly against my daze+pierce hand. Game 2 I mull to 6 into double shaman double pyroblast. He cabals my shamans. I draw a young pyro to start a clock and pyroblast a few cantrips, leaving my opponent with a lot of mana but no business and win by quickly attacking with elementals

5-0

R6 Miracles (Thomas Mechin). 0-2.
I take a game loss for an error of decklist (I wrote forked bolt instead of Dead/Gone). Game 2 on the play I keep a good hand going Shaman T1 into Pyro+Probe T2. The probe reveals me a good hand, few lands but brainstorm + terminus. My plan is to inflict as much damage as possible with the pyro, and I have 2 delvers for a second wave after he plays terminus. I get him down to 5. At my EOT, he plays brainstorm, keeping plains+island untapped. I have a volcanic, a sea and a Shaman untapped, bolt, pierce and my 2 delvers in hand.
I decide to try and kill him in response, play bolt (playing around counterspell), but it gets FoWed. The BS resolves, triggering a terminus (not the one I saw in his hand, as he didn't play a brainstorm previously). I decide to spell pierce the terminus, which resolved, but was a bad play, as I know the second one is coming (hoped I had one more turn, if he puts it back second from the top). Spell piercing costs me an activation of shaman.
On his draw step, the second terminus triggers, which resolved. I untap and play double delver. He has swords+ snapcaster swords to get rid of them. I play a brainstorm but don't find anything and quickly die to snapcaster mages

5-1

R7 Eldrazi Stompy
I lose game 1, take the 2nd one easily and find myself in a really good spot game 3: my opponent at 7, empty board and I have a Gurmag. He uses 2 ancient tombs to cast a Wurmcoil Engine, going down to 3. He passes the turn, asking me if I have the bolt. I had forked bolt :(
I don't find ancient grudge fast enough and get destroyed by the wurmcoil

5-2

R8 Eldrazi Stompy
Game 1, we trade resources, I have double Young Pyro, some tokens, and him 2 TKS, a Karn and constructs but he's around 4 life. He resolves a chalice. I have 1 land left, and 2 dazes and a Fow in my hand. He plays an Endbringer, with a cavern of souls, but I daze and FoW it, creating enough tokens for lethal. Game 2, on the play he goes Eye of Ugin double Mimic, but I play forked bolt, and waste him a few times and he can't recover.

6-2

Day 2

R9 Moon Stompy
For the first round of day 2, I face one of my teammates, on mono red, which is a pretty bad matchup, even more so that I know he knows the matchup very well. Game 1 I probe to see his hand of 3 mountans, chalice and 4-drops. A quick clock and counterspells on my part allow me to take the game. I lose game 2 and 3 as expected, don't remember the details

6-3

R10 Burn 2-1
I keep a pretty slow hand game 1 and get destroyed. Game 2 my opponent plays around daze all game. I have a pretty quick clock to try and race. On the last turn, he's at 5, I'm at 8 ad I have TNN and 2 tokens, + daze in hand. He casts Exquisite Firecraft, using all of his mana. Resolves, then he sacs 2 mountains and plays fireblast, which gets dazed for the win. I win game 3 after countering a PoP by wasting all of my lands

7-3

R11 Moon Stompy 2-1

He goes turn 1 mountain go, I leave up spell pierce which counters a blood moon and I find a gurmag to take game 1. I lose game 2 keeping a hand without FoW with bolt, pierce daze and grudge. He plays Trinisphere T1, Magus of the moon T2. I have a plan to grudge the trini and bolt the magus, but he plays a goblin rabblemaster, which I have to bolt instead of the magus to not die. I can't find a kill spell for the magus in time.
I take game 3 with a TNN and enough countermagic
8-3

R12 RUG delver 1-2
I lose game 1 to my opponent's double delver hand. I kept a sketchy hand with Young Pyro, double shaman, double probe and 2 volcanic island. I don't find black mana and get killed. I win game 2.
Game 3 I am happy to keep Dismember, volcanic island, underground sea, 2 fetch, Delver, Young Pyromancer.
He goes turn 1 volcanic go, representing stifle. I play volcanic into delver, which gets dazed. Turn 2, he goes volc go again. I play sea and Yound Pyro, which gets spell snared.
He ends up playing a delver, which I bolt, but I start to flood out a lot, drawing lots of lands and some kill spells, no cantrips, and one shaman which gets burned. I waste him off green for a time but he eventually finds a trop and plays a mangoose which eats slowly my life. I had a lot of turns to find a TNN or Gurmag, or cantrips but keep drawing lands. He doesn't have a lot going on either, but finds a second mangoose, then a 3rd, and when I find a YP + cantrips it's too late and I'm facing 4 mangooses
8-4

R13 Grixis delver 2-0
Another teammate, he mulls to 5 game 1, scrys on the bottom, plays 2 probe then concedes. Game 2, we both keep a hand with 1 land, 1 waste and cantrips. On the play, he goes ponder, shuffle. I waste and pass. He plays a waste and passes. I fetch, play ponder, don't find lands and shuffle. He wastes me. I win because I'm the first to topdeck a land

9-4

R14 BUG Delver
Game 1, I attack his mana and have a clock with a delver. He stabilizes too late and I win. Game 2, he has DRS into double goyf. I take an attack, bolt his shaman, play my own and a gurmag to stabilize the board. I can shrink the goyfs with my shaman, getting rid of all sorceries, so that I can bolt one of them. He plays an engineered explosives to get rid of the shaman and grow goyf bigger than gurmag, which wins him the game.

Game 3, I keep something like 1 ponder, 1 BS, waste and a few non land cards. I think this is a keep in the delver mirror. I don't have the math, but the probability of hitting a land should be high enough. Unfortunately, I ponder and shuffle. He plays sea > shaman. I brainstorm, still no lands. I waste him and pass, telegraphing that I am BS locked and no lands. He plays a waste and I don't find a land for the rest of this (short) game.


9-5.

R15 Grixis Delver w/ stifle.
I win 2-0, don't remember this game a lot, I was very sad to have been ejected out of top 64 last game, even though I was (and am) convinced I took the right decisions and kept the right hands against BUG and RUG delver.
10-5

I am a bit sad for this finished as I've been working on the deck for a bit more than a year hand have had an incredible win rate with it lately.

I think the deck is still extremely strong, as the top 16 decklist posted can attest: it can beat pretty easily decks that are designed to beat it (lands or Mono red stompy for instance). I think the strengh of the deck is its extreme efficiency, playing the best cards in the format and one of the lowest curve. Even if the result of the GP results in more players sleeving up Red prison, I will stick with grixis until shaman is banned :tongue:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Does anyone have an opinion about BBD's use of Tarmogoyf in the sideboard of his build of Czech Pile he recently piloted to a 2nd place finish to combat the Stompy lists and Grixis Delver? How hard would this be to beat if you knew it was the sideboard plan?

He said it was excellent in his write-up, and I don't doubt it was, but it seems bad if you know its the plan vs. getting caught with your pants down.

[harroxelas]

Does anyone have an opinion about BBD's use of Tarmogoyf in the sideboard of his build of Czech Pile he recently piloted to a 2nd place finish to combat the Stompy lists and Grixis Delver? How hard would this be to beat if you knew it was the sideboard plan?

He said it was excellent in his write-up, and I don't doubt it was, but it seems bad if you know its the plan vs. getting caught with your pants down.

Dunno if it is goyf is that effective against grixis delver. TNN blocks it and attacks through it, the big fish is usually bigger (maybe strixes grows goyfs bigger, but maybe not), pyromancer's tokens chump block goyfs for a lot of time and delver just flys over. We usually don't have removal for it (except for people that play fatal push), but as I just explained, I don't think we need it.

[GoblinZ]

I first played grixis delver and won a small tournament last friday.

2-0 beating Br Reanimator
2-1 beating Big Eldrazi
2-0 beating ANT

A question for you all: Is it worth playing one basic island in the sb? In what mu would you bring it in? And does it really help the mu against dragon stompy significantly?

[JackaBo]

I first played grixis delver and won a small tournament last friday.

2-0 beating Br Reanimator
2-1 beating Big Eldrazi
2-0 beating ANT

A question for you all: Is it worth playing one basic island in the sb? In what mu would you bring it in? And does it really help the mu against dragon stompy significantly?

I truely dont think it is.

On the play you have a chance to deploy your basic, but a spell pierce would do the same while also countering chalice.

On the draw it's a fifth FOW basically. Unless it's in your hand you're unlikely to ever see it.

If you really want to cast spells through blood moon you may also consider mox Diamond.

I believe that in a heavy blood moon meta the best ber is trying to win through blood moon. That means more red creatures/wincons, preferably not 1-cmc to also avoid chalice. A fourth pyromancer in side or main and perhabs sulfuric vortex in the side. Maybe you want to play more abrade and less grudge, since you wont be able to be flashing back anyway but you need yo kill chalice to allow bolts to resolve.

[GoblinZ]

I truely dont think it is.

On the play you have a chance to deploy your basic, but a spell pierce would do the same while also countering chalice.

On the draw it's a fifth FOW basically. Unless it's in your hand you're unlikely to ever see it.

If you really want to cast spells through blood moon you may also consider mox Diamond.

I believe that in a heavy blood moon meta the best ber is trying to win through blood moon. That means more red creatures/wincons, preferably not 1-cmc to also avoid chalice. A fourth pyromancer in side or main and perhabs sulfuric vortex in the side. Maybe you want to play more abrade and less grudge, since you wont be able to be flashing back anyway but you need yo kill chalice to allow bolts to resolve.

That makes sense. Even on the play, we tend to play drs out of U sea first and fetch the basic latter. The first moon they play should be answered anyway. But it seems if we have an island on play, we can totally ignore the next moon effect they play. So I am still not sure about that.

[JackaBo]

That makes sense. Even on the play, we tend to play drs out of U sea first and fetch the basic latter. The first moon they play should be answered anyway. But it seems if we have an island on play, we can totally ignore the next moon effect they play. So I am still not sure about that.

If you dont have fow or daze leading with shaman can spell your doom. If you fetched for UGS and they slam blood moon you have exactly one DRS mana activation for the rest of the game and wont be fetching at all.
You gotta lead with fetch into island to get a realiable source of non-red mana.

[Draggo]

It been a while since a played a tournament so I took my slightly updated list for a spin at the LGS.

Decklist: 60/15
Lands: 18
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Sultai Scavenger
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells: 30
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Mirri's Guile

Sideboard: 15
1 Golgari Charm
1 Terminate
2 Pyroblast
1 Bitterblossom
1 Submerge
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Divert
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Forked Bolt


Round 1: BR Reanimator > 2-1
Game 1 got kicked by Grisselbrand
SB: -4 Bolt, -2 Push. +1 Cage, +1 Terminate, +1 Blossom, +1 Needle, +1 Divert, +1 Extraction
Game 2 I managed to stall and win
Game 3 I managed to destroy the only red mana on his side to be able to activate his Lavamancer. While he drew air a couple of turns (really needing that red mana to kill the Deathrite), I won.

Round 2: Chech Pile/BUG control > 1-2
First time I got this matchup and I proberly made some poor choices. Also drew really awkward since we had a deckcheck and the first few games are always a mess for me then...
Game 1: He got out Jace and Lili Last Hope and my side of the board is just empty so I scoop for the next game.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Daze, -1 Pierce. +2 Pyroblast, +1 Charm, +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: I get a better hold on the game and fly over with Scavanger and a Delver.
Game 3: Lost control of the game and ended up against the planeswalkers again while I died very, very slowly.

Round 3: Grixis Delver (stock list) > 2-0
Game 1: I got more control in the game and fly with either Delver or Scavenger for the win.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Scavenger. +1 Divert, +1 Charm, +1 Terminate, +1 Forket Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: This one was an interesting match where I managed to turn the game in my favor after hitting his Pyromancer and token with a Forked Bolt before the field filled up.

Round 4: Elves > 2-0
Game 1: I get a really aggressive start with Deathrite Turn 1 followed by 2 Delvers Turn 2 who flip blindly while I manage to kill and counter some key cards.
SB: -4 Stifle, -1 Wasteland, -1 Scavenger, -1 Daze. +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 Charm, +1 Submerge, +1 TNN, +1 Cage, +1 Terminate
Game 2: I manage to keep control enough to fly over the tiny green critters.

Round 5: Lands (2-1)
I used all my luck cards winning this match-up at the end.
Game 1: Got wrecked by recurring ghost quarters and tabernacle so I scoop.
SB: -3 Bolt, -2 Push. +1 Extraction, +1 Blossom, +1 Needle, +1 TNN, +1 Submerge
Game 2: I manage to get a Needle on Tricket preventing from recurring Loam instantly and manage to get some control using Deathrite. Scavenger flies in for the win since it takes two Punishing Fires to kill it, witch I prevent form happening.
SB: -1 Bolt. +1 Grudge (saw some Trinispheres being dredged)
Game 3: Got lucky and Extracted Loam on turn 1. Later I found myself facing Molten Vortex, Punishing Fires and a Maze of Ith... Got lucky and found TNN to ride to victory next to a Scavenger that got passed the Maze on my final attack turn of the round when I got my hands on a wasteland.

Top 4: BUG > 1-2
I think I messed up sideboarding here since I expected to face another Chech-Pile rather then BUG.
Game 1: I manage to race 2 TNN with a Scavenger that landed faster.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Daze, -1 Pierce. +2 Pyroblast, +1 Charm, +1 Needle, +1 Forked Bolt, +1 TNN
Game 2: Got control of the game until I got wrecked by multiple Hyms (should have kept all 3 Pierce in and add the Divert, but I didn't...)
Game 3: Got control and then again wrecked by Hyms... Really should have changed my boarding game

Overall happy with the deck.
I think it's time to retire good ol' Submerge from the SB and replace it with something else, not sure what though. I always found myself struggling to get good value out of this card and end up using it to "save" one of my own creatures.
Mirri's Guile preformed really nice. Got me back in the game after mulling to 5 and dropping it turn 1 with a questionable hand.

Anyone got some tips/suggestions?

[EronRelentless]

A question for you all: Is it worth playing one basic island in the sb? In what mu would you bring it in? And does it really help the mu against dragon stompy significantly?

Don't think it is the right way to attack the Moon Decks as it does not help you with Deathrite Shaman nor with the Ancient Grudges and Pyromancers.
If you really want to attack the Moon Stompy Decks I think a misers Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast seems reasonable, as it can counter or destroy all red Cards in the Deck if you are not under a Chalice.

[jimytuning]

How do we play against Red Stompy? It is a very complicated match, which we can remove from the main?

[GoblinZ]

Don't think it is the right way to attack the Moon Decks as it does not help you with Deathrite Shaman nor with the Ancient Grudges and Pyromancers.
If you really want to attack the Moon Stompy Decks I think a misers Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast seems reasonable, as it can counter or destroy all red Cards in the Deck if you are not under a Chalice.

Yeah. After some testing with moon stompy, I can agree to you on this. Eron, do you think cabal therapy is a good card agaisnt them? I took it out postboard when on the draw, my reason is that they would quickly play out all they have and then play a topdeck game. But again I am not sure of this. And would you play cabal therapy on the play in this match-up?

[EronRelentless]

Yeah. After some testing with moon stompy, I can agree to you on this. Eron, do you think cabal therapy is a good card agaisnt them? I took it out postboard when on the draw, my reason is that they would quickly play out all they have and then play a topdeck game. But again I am not sure of this. And would you play cabal therapy on the play in this match-up?

I am totally with you. On the play you can try to get the Blood Moon or Chalice of the Void with the Cabal Therapy but on the draw it is too slow, especially if they land the Chalice on Turn 1. I normally tend to cut 2 TNN (double Blue is very hard to get) for 2 Ancient Grudge. That's it! If you have additional Cards like Abrade, Kolaghan's Command or Dismember you can bring them in as well and can cut Forked Bolt or a Wasteland for them.

I really think Hydroblast and maybe a third Artifact destruction Spell is the best way to attack the Moon Stompy Deck with our strategy.

[JackaBo]

I am totally with you. On the play you can try to get the Blood Moon or Chalice of the Void with the Cabal Therapy but on the draw it is too slow, especially if they land the Chalice on Turn 1. I normally tend to cut 2 TNN (double Blue is very hard to get) for 2 Ancient Grudge. That's it! If you have additional Cards like Abrade, Kolaghan's Command or Dismember you can bring them in as well and can cut Forked Bolt or a Wasteland for them.

I really think Hydroblast and maybe a third Artifact destruction Spell is the best way to attack the Moon Stompy Deck with our strategy.

A fourth pyromancer isnt bad either

[JBlaze]

I have been main decking one Abrade in the Forked Bolt slot and having pretty good results. Made top four at a local cash tourney and won another.

[Darkness]

Pick up those Goyfs and Stifles boys DRS is banned.

[potatodavid]

Pick up those Goyfs and Stifles boys DRS is banned.



You misspelled Kess

[Darkness]

You misspelled Kess

Pretty sure I meant this Archetype is dead go play Grixis Control or RUG Delver.

[Anachronism]

I think this archetype is still a thing. It will look more like old RUG Delver but Gurmag Angler is arguably better than Goyf (or Hooting Mandrills), and having access to discard, KCommand, Fatal Push, and Diabolic Edict might be enough to continue playing black over green.

[ZeusBolt]

I think this archetype is still a thing. It will look more like old RUG Delver but Gurmag Angler is arguably better than Goyf (or Hooting Mandrills), and having access to discard, KCommand, Fatal Push, and Diabolic Edict might be enough to continue playing black over green.



I think Grixis is still playable, but we are going to have to make some serious adjustments. Gurmag and Edict are very powerful spells. Our best option if we go RUG is probably to play Hooting Mandrills and Reality shift in place of Edict. We may also need to go to be a little less tempo and a lot more control. Main deck Fatal Push may have to be a thing.

Just a thought.

[Poron]

Green has only Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay

Everything else green has to offer can be found in Grixis colors

[falstaff]

Hi !

Been trying this list on xmage :

4 delver of secrets
4 monastery swiftspear
2 gurmag angler
2 young pyromancer
2 true-name nemesis
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
2 spell pierce
2 dismember
2 forked bolt
2 thoughtseize
4 daze
4 force of will

4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
3 volcanic island
3 underground sea
4 wasteland

sideboard :

3 pyroblast
3 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 diabolic edict
2 abrade
1 bitterblossom


No double black spells because i don't think this deck can afford it now that shaman is gone, and no kolaghan command either. True-name is the only 3ccm card because double blue is okay and it can be pitched to FOW (not an easy card to put on the board though)

I won against 2 BUG shell with baleful strix and tarmogoyf and against a miracle deck. Monastery can do some nasty things (I think it's not bad against miracles with the haste and all), and Gurmag is still the baddest m*********er in the neighbourhood. Young pyromancer is not so bad, even without gitaxian probe, but Ltlh and marsh casualties are still here.

edit : almost forgot, I was beaten by BR reanimator. Game 1, he has the golden hand with chancellor, i can do nothing, game 2 i wreck him bad with a good board of young pyro and swiftspear plus surgical and stuff, and game 3 is the same as game 1.

(my two cents, I only had a few games on xmage ^^)

[ZeusBolt]

Green has only Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay

Everything else green has to offer can be found in Grixis colors


Green also gives you access to Nimble Mongoose, which is an excellent card!

[RhoxWarMonk]

Here's an interesting take post-ban that went 5-0 on MTGO.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1183672#paper

Bomat Courier is very intriguing in this kind of shell... thoughts?

[Hrothgar]

Hi guys!
The Deathrite Shaman’s ban destroy the classic Grixis Delver archetype and the 4c Control Czech Pile archetype.
Many players, after ban, trying to use the Grixis colors with good feedback from test. Here we all can talking about the possible evolutions of the Grixis colors in competitive Legacy.

In this Discord now we have two different sections:

- MIDRANGE (similar to old Czech Pile decks)
- DELVER (similar to old Grixis Delver decks)

Each gameplay variant of Grixis gets its own channel based of 2 subchannels from now on: “General” and “Decklist”. If the subchannels are being used more often and we feel like too many people joined or actively post, we will think about extending it.

If you miss anything or feel like we should add something, please let me know!

I hope you like this and will be good for all of us!

All of you can use this link that will not expire, to invite other players / share the chat

https://discord.gg/GuBX4wd

You’re also free to create new invite.

[Poron]

Nowadays many are playing many basics.

If you want to be effective you have to play Stifle

Stifle and Wasteland
Give a middle game sense to Daze and Pierce

[Draggo]

Tested a bit with the following list: (vs D&T, Mono red moon, RUG)
Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Badlands
1 Island

Creatures
3 Siren Stormtamer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Darkblast
1 Bitterblossom

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Divert
1 Dreadbore
1 Flusterstorm
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Abrade
1 Shattering Spree
1 Rakdos Charm

I've been playing Stifle for ages so I changed the following cards pre/post Shaman ban (not counting SB):
4 Shaman
1 Push
1 Pierce
1 Kira
1 Tropical Island
For
3 Siren
2 Snare
1 Darkblast
1 TNN
1 Island

The Siren performed just as I expected (and wanted): it hits for a few damage until it counters that plow/bolt/dismember that is targeted on your Delver or Angler.
I think the Island and Badlands should be swapped for another Volcanic and USea since I can't perma use the badland for Shaman activations and go for Tropical + Badlands to have access to all SB cards I used to have. Now I faced some awkward situations with both the Island and Badlands. It could be that I need to get used to the basic land main deck and are fetching way too fast for it, but it might be better to just swap them.
Darkblast instead of the second Push seems fine. Both have their pro's and con's

[Tiberius42]

I've liked some discard main in delver.

[IamHANDSOME]

Im testing the deck now since the bannings and its definitely not dead or bad. Just not as insane and busted anymore. Im currently on a list splitting Sultai Scavenger and Gurmag Angler to give the deck a little more aggressive feel and more evasion creatures. Right now not a lot of Lightning Bolts are around so I like Scavenger. This is the list I'm playing:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Sultai Scavenger
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thought Scour
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Thought Scour makes come Scavenger and Angler very early, which is good for the deck. If I dont need it I can pitch it to Force of Will. If the amount of Lightning Bolt increases Id cut 2 Scavenger for 2 more Angler. Also Lavamancer is insane in certain matchups, otherwise its a consistens pinger like Shaman was in the end stages. I think 2 True-Name are little to much but I dont have a better creature right now to, also I could think about adding 1 more fetchland in it for the 2. TNN or maybe the 4. Thought Scour. But I like the densitiy of creatures and its explosiveness with Thought Scour, also Grixis has the better card pool than Canadian so its a real contender. Anybody playing Grixis Delver currently?

[Draggo]

Anybody playing Grixis Delver currently?

Yup. Played some more with the list I posted above (except 2 Push instead of 1-1 split with Darkblast). Also managed to put 1 Alpine Moon in the side. The list isn't aggressive as I would like it to be.
Snares seem to be more a miss then hit most of the time, so back to 3 Pierce instead of the 2-2 split. The creatues you can counter with it are hit by Push and most of them also get hit by Bolt, so no need for this. Non-creature spells are better countered with Pierce most of the time since it has more targets and I play with Stifles.
Back to 4 Scavengers instead of the Sirens. They are good, but not on their own and I don't want to put more then 12 creatures in the deck.
Going to test 2 TNN instead of the single 3-drop I'm used to play. Perhaps 1-1 split with Kira, which I liked a lot for the short time I tested it, but TNN is better holding the fort against Anglers and Death's Shadows.
Going to test 2 Preordain to fix the draws to get land for TNN or what ever relevant thing I need at the time while fueling Scavengers.

Never liked Thought Scour. Feels like a Dark-Ritual type of card in the deck specially aimed at your Delve creatures. It doesn't let you filter draws (except for that one Brainstorm you can fix with it every 100 games) or gives you more information like Probe used to do.

I'm not sure what the better removal spell is at the moment when I compare Push, Darkblast, Edict, Forket Bolt or even Dismember.
Probaly going to stick with Push for a bit on the 2 slots since it hits most diverse creatures.

[blablub]

Does someone know why the Bob Huang List play an Island? I just don't get it. Of Course you can cast your Cantrips under BloodMoon but nothing else...Why do you want that instead of the 4th Usea like Sukenik played at the Pro Tour (except Money-Reasons:D)
Hopefully someone has the "official" for that :)

[JackaBo]

I top 4ed our legacy leagues season finals where the best ranking 16 players in Stockholm fight for the Legacy champ title.
I played a rather spicy Grixis delver brew influenced by Sukeniks way of delvering.

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/2018-09-02/R0lJjv3TP0SBYGmND4t7sA==

I built the deck anticipating lots of control midrange and artifacts. I was right in my prediction and did beat the decks i set out to beat.

2-0 BUG thresold
2-1 UW blade
1-2 Alluren
0-2 Mono red prison
2-0 Grixis control

7th into the top 8

2-0 Alluren
0-2 Goblins

3-4th place together with omnitell
Goblins went on to lose to Grixis control
Had I been paired otherwice i think i would have made it to the finals.

[fcpadua]

Does someone know why the Bob Huang List play an Island? I just don't get it. Of Course you can cast your Cantrips under BloodMoon but nothing else...Why do you want that instead of the 4th Usea like Sukenik played at the Pro Tour (except Money-Reasons:D)
Hopefully someone has the "official" for that :)

Because of Wastelands loops from Loam/Lands, Path to Exile from Miracles/DaT/Stoneblade and Blood Moon as you said.

[schtormy]

Hello !

Il wrote a report of my top8 run with the deck on Reddit, here's the link in case you're interrested.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/9eweaw/mkm_series_paris_grixis_delver_top8_report/?utm_source=reddit-android

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[JackaBo]

Hello !

Il wrote a report of my top8 run with the deck on Reddit, here's the link in case you're interrested.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/9eweaw/mkm_series_paris_grixis_delver_top8_report/?utm_source=reddit-android

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Nice to see peezy.

[sanderanders]

Pretty sure I meant this Archetype is dead go play Grixis Control or RUG Delver.

I am sorry, but could you repeat that please? ;-p

[H]

Grixis Tempo rises from the ashes! All it took was Lurrus to make a DTB, :tongue:

List from learntolove6, 6-0 in the Legacy Challenge (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2987883):

2 Baleful Strix
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist

4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fatal Push
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Mishra's Bauble
1 Urza's Bauble

1 Badlands
1 Karakas
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Karakas
1 Baleful Strix
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrade
1 Bitterblossom
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Lurrus of the Dream Den
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Red Elemental Blast

Pretty "standard" Lurrus config, Baubles to fuel the usual Delver antics.