[Deck] TDS - The Dark Tendrils

[Pelikanudo]

The Genesis

This deck is a new Storm archetype in my opinion which has been developed around a new card edited in the new MTG Set - Magic Origins, the name of this card is Dark Petition:

Dark Petition
3BB
Sorcery
Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Spell mastery - If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, add BBB to your mana pool.

A friend of mine and me have been thinking in including this deck as an evolution of an already existing Storm deck like Fetchland Tendrils or Doomsday or ANT but we believe it has enough different factors to create a new Thread for this New Storm Deck.



Why it is different than other Storm Decks

- You could compare it to ANT because it already uses the same Manabase and Acceleration and it also uses 1 Storm Engine - Past In Flames, but these are the only similarities. This deck does not use Ad Nauseam and neither Infernal Tutor. it also uses Doomsday as alternative Storm Engine.

- You could compare it to Doomsday, however Doomsday is focused on Doomsday uniquely - sure some lists uses 1 Ad Nauseam, but no one of them uses A.N as a reliable Storm Engine, this deck neither packages Senseis Divining Top, which is a key feature in Doomsday, in my opinion SDT makes this deck slower, which is something I really don't want and also believe don't needed because of the amount of Cantrips and the polyvalence of Dark Petition.

- you could compare it to TES - the deck I love the most!, but TES is based on quickness and a high Threat density mainly, surprisingly in testing this deck has demonstated to be also very quick, but TES is still quicker.


Pros and Cons

Dark Petition is a wonderfull card it has so many uses that a deck can be built completely around it - essentially it is a Demonic Tutor that can be played as a 4 of in a Single deck.

The counterpart is that this card is somehow Graveyard Dependant, but this doesn't mean that if for example the opponent has a Tormods Crypt in play you can not win - You can play After the activation of Tormods 2 more instants to make Dark Petition good again, or you can still pay the tough 5 mana it costs.

This is an example, Graveyard Dependancy means that you can not win with a Rest In Peace card like Reanimator.deck, with this Deck you just need to pay more mana in order to win with a Rest In Peace card in play.

That said This is the unique limitation for this deck.

Now the Pros:
In testing has demonstrated to be quicker than ANT and Doomsday.
It has more answers than the Plain ANT Deck
It has a better Late Game than TES Deck and maybe than ANT Deck.


The Deck - Version 1.5.07.

NOTE About Build Version:
N.M.ZZ
N - it is incremented when Major Changes are applied to the Main Deck
M - it is incremented when Minor Changes are applied to the Main Deck
ZZ - it is incremented when any Changes are applied to the Side Board

The Manabase:

1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou


The Acceleration

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth


The Disruption

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

The Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe



The Engines

4 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Burning Wish
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard (still under construction)

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Toughtseize
1 Duress
1 Pithing Nedle
1 Infernal Tutor

Alternative Card Side Options:

1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
n Xantids
n Carpet of Flawers

About the manabase:
I'm not absolutly sure about the Manabase, however something I'm sure about:

- 8 Fetches are needed for sure
- At least 2 Basic Lands are needed for consistency issues
- OR Tropical OR Bayou are needed to support Decay
- At least 1 Red Source is needed to support PiF and EtW.

About The Acceleration
- as we don't play in here such amount of Red Cards like 4 Burning Wish that's why I don't find Rite of Flame needed and in the late game Cabal ritual is much more powerfull.
- I prefer to play cards like Lotus Petal which makes the deck faster and to avoid cards like Chrome Mox which is only used to be quicker and for Ad Nauseam - card that I don't play in here
- LED and Dark Ritual are just self explanatory.


About The Cantrips:
- No Preordains are needed - instead more Threats are played and neither SDT because it is slower and neither needed in this deck.
- An Example of the power of Dark Petition is that it doubles as a Cantrip if you need to find a Gitaxian to build a Doomsday Pile - I'm not sure if you still undestand the power of this card:
from now on you will not need to Discard your hand to get the card you need AND you now can take whatever card you could need with no need of having it already in your hand.


About The Engines

- Dark Petition:
This card is the key of this deck I've talked before about the power of this card but you can also do some tricks with Doomsday and your sideboard. the key features are:
a) you can search for any card in your deck
b) Adds BBB
c) there is no need to discard your hand like Infernal Tutor
d) you can use it to fetch for Gitaxian to make Doomsday Piles adding uniquely B to a Non Senseis Pile
e) it is easier now to make Natural Tendrils

- Empty the Warrens:
1.In previous Builds it was Tendrils of Agony however and following the philosopy of not playing useless cards like in TES - this has been a great intrduction - this is not useless in First Games.

2.Also I noticed that for PiF Piles you just don't need Tendrils main as you have 1 Burning Wish to fetch Tendrils from Side - you can add to your PiF Piles Doomsday to win in a same manner.

3.Adds quikness to the deck like in TES

4.it has synergy with Cabal Therapy

NOTE: This has been took out from main - as a starting grip Tendrils seems better for:
a) PiF Loops
b) Double Cantrip Piles with Doomsday
c) Extirpate effects

NOTE: I'm not completely sure about this slot - as maybe this should be the Tendrils so that more DD Piles can be done - however for 1st games this on overall seems better - you can simply put a second tendrils in side. Still Testing.

Doomsday and I.U
This is a link with Doomsday Piles:

https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1onAp8XmBLHTUP71xw1w_z0_LAiTo5EWJR4YQmAMgTkY&hl=en&pli=1

The reason to include Doomsday is that is is an alternative Engine wich is wonderfull in conjuntion to Dark Petition.
It also adds Threat density
it is a non symetric Engine with non G.Y. dependancy
It avoids from loosing in Ethersworn Canonist or Thalias scenarios

The single Burning Wish

In previous Builds it was a CoV Slot, but CoV is useless vs some pairings
It grabs Tendrils, Massacre or thoughtseize
it is another Threat thanks to I.T. in the side!

The Disruption

4 Therapies because they are a great card in conjuntion with EtW and Gitaxian probe - they can become even Card Advantage - they also fight in several angles - discarding both Permanent and Non Permanent Hate.
3 Duress - On previous versions this directly was Thoughtseize as we really do not need to sabe Lifes - but in this Tempo meta Duress seems better.

About the Sideboard



Version Changes:

1.4.04.
-1 EtW = +1 Tendrils of Agony
Reason: Initially was Tendrils, but prefer to start with a Standard Base. also allows more DD Piles and avoids Extirpate Scenarios it also makes more easier PiF Loops.


1.5.05.
- 1 Badlands = +1 Underground Sea
-4 Verdant Catacombs = +4 Bloodtained Mire
Reason: Really there is no reason to play Badlands as you will use it only for PiF - as I took also EtW main, U.Sea also provides Blue. --> thinking to switching to a 9th Fetch so having Access to toal 10 Green sources.
Side: -1 T.Seize = +1 Duress
Reason: Better use the 4th Duress as Disruption package vs Tempo instead of T.Seize, it is also ok, vs rest of Blue decks.

1.5.05.
- 1 Badlands = +1 Underground Sea
-4 Verdant Catacombs = +4 Bloodtained Mire
Reason: Really there is no reason to play Badlands as you will use it only for PiF - as I took also EtW main, U.Sea also provides Blue. --> thinking to switching to a 9th Fetch so having Access to toal 10 Green sources.
Side: -1 T.Seize = +1 Duress
Reason: Better use the 4th Duress as Disruption package vs Tempo instead of T.Seize, it is also ok, vs rest of Blue decks.

1.5.06.
- 1 E.Truth = +1 I.Tutor
Reason: I noticed how bad B.W. is as a Threat - having I.T. in side makes B.W. simply a Threat.

1.5.07.
- 1 DD = +1 Rain of Filth
Reason: to make better D.P.

To be Continued...

[dylanZ]

I've been goldfishing this and I've noticed a few things.

1. The maindeck Empty should probably be a Tendrils. I had too many times where I cast a petition and wanted to grab a Tendrils with it.

2. There should be at least 2 Wishes in the main deck (Although, this could be alleviated by having a Tendrils in the main)

3. I would maybe have an additional land over a Lotus Petal, I was getting mana screwed often and 1 more land may help with opening hands as well.

I don't know if this is better than ANT or Doomsday, this may just be a jack of all trades, master of none deck which isn't good in Legacy. I've found it to be roughly the same speed as ANT, while having more "dead" cards. Dark Petition is sweet, but 5 mana is a lot when you are finding just 1 card off it, instead of 10+ with Ad Nauseam for the same amount of mana.

[Pelikanudo]

I've been goldfishing this and I've noticed a few things.
1. The maindeck Empty should probably be a Tendrils. I had too many times where I cast a petition and wanted to grab a Tendrils with it.



Usually when you win with Natural Tendrils you need have enough mana to cast several tutors - and among them B.W. -> Tendrils
The other scenario is to win with PiF Loops which sometimes involves a need of having Tendrils Main - I noticed that those scenarios were solved by having just Doomsday.

On the other hand, my initial thought was to play Tendrils main and was satisfied EtW is in deed an attempt - I only encountered a scenario in which I preferred to have Tendrils main - a Double cantrip pile which requires I.U, D.R., Lotus Petal, D.R.
and Tendrils

I still am evaluating to have Tendrils or EtW main so please if you could expose some scenarios it would be great.

Thanks for the input!

EDIT: Changed... I think I'd better start with a Standard BAse and next going in deep with Test Cases which involves No Tendrils Main to see if it worths....




2. There should be at least 2 Wishes in the main deck (Although, this could be alleviated by having a Tendrils in the main)


with 2 DD, 4 D.P, and 1 B.W. you are almost playing as many Threats as TES. these are enough Threats.





3. I would maybe have an additional land over a Lotus Petal, I was getting mana screwed often and 1 more land may help with opening hands as well.


This is wrong, 15 lands are enough for this deck - Look at this Link:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528

this is a manabase super stable - and has the same manabase and accelerators - this got a 9 Rounds Win 1 Lost in a tournament. No less tan 4 Lotus petal.




I don't know if this is better than ANT or Doomsday, this may just be a jack of all trades, master of none deck which isn't good in Legacy. I've found it to be roughly the same speed as ANT, while having more "dead" cards. Dark Petition is sweet, but 5 mana is a lot when you are finding just 1 card off it, instead of 10+ with Ad Nauseam for the same amount of mana.
[/QUOTE]

Sure it is more G.Y dependant than ANT or DD. but for me it is better to have Demonic Tutors than Infernal Tutors - Natural Tendrils are easier to enable.
Which cards do you consider Dead Cards?

[dylanZ]

It is quite obvious that you put a lot of thought into this, much more than I have in my ~30 minutes to a hour of goldfishing. I think we may just have different opinions on the best ways to go about winning. The earlier the game, the better Empty becomes. I found that I could very rarely get turn 1 or turn 2 Empty the Warrens with this build of the deck. I haven't quite pinpointed why that is exactly. It could be a handful of things such as being red mana restricted, or not enough rituals/storm count to make it worth while, it could also be my mindset of playing the deck. I am always kinda afraid to go for Empty if it is past turn 1 or 2. I would much rather get a kill with Tendrils. I guess I am just used to play ANT/Doomsday. I only dabbled in TES a bit, so that may just be a mindset difference.



Usually when you win with Natural Tendrils you need have enough mana to cast several tutors - and among them B.W. -> Tendrils
The other scenario is to win with PiF Loops which sometimes involves a need of having Tendrils Main - I noticed that those scenarios were solved by having just Doomsday.

On the other hand, my initial thought was to play Tendrils main and was satisfied EtW is in deed an attempt - I only encountered a scenario in which I preferred to have Tendrils main - a Double cantrip pile which requires I.U, D.R., Lotus Petal, D.R.
and Tendrils

I still am evaluating to have Tendrils or EtW main so please if you could expose some scenarios it would be great.

One thing I noticed is that it seemed that PiF was less consistent without Tendrils in the main. You mention that Doomsday would solve those issues, but there will be cases where you will be unable to get into a DD pile. I know from playing Doomsday to hold extra probes and cantrips just in case, but missing top is a big deal for me when you want to ensure getting into a pile. This could also just be a mindset difference that I need to adjust/account for.


with 2 DD, 4 D.P, and 1 B.W. you are almost playing as many Threats as TES. these are enough Threats.

I didn't give my reasoning for 2 wishes, my apologies. It wasn't to have more threats per se. It was to increase flexibility. I was possibly trying to account for a situation that came up that I would have to Wish for a DD then be unable to finish the kill by not having a way to get the tendrils. That was why I said that having a Tendrils in the main may account for that. Also having a second wish allows us to wish for a particular piece of hate such as a sweeper, or a discard spell while maintaining our capability to have another Wish just in case we need to PiF to get more mana/action.


This is wrong, 15 lands are enough for this deck - Look at this Link:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528

this is a manabase super stable - and has the same manabase and accelerators - this got a 9 Rounds Win 1 Lost in a tournament. No less tan 4 Lotus petal.

To be fair, that was 2 years ago and it is a different type of deck. Also, an indication that a deck done very well, doesn't mean that it is perfect and cannot be improved upon. I would rather have a more stable mana source. This may again be a difference in mindset. I don't like to go off as soon as possible. I like to go off when I know the coast is reasonably clear.


Sure it is more G.Y dependant than ANT or DD. but for me it is better to have Demonic Tutors than Infernal Tutors - Natural Tendrils are easier to enable.
Which cards do you consider Dead Cards?

In most cases, IU is dead as I've found that cracking an LED to get the double blue seems to be the line that happens most of the time. Another thing I've noticed is that the deck may be too threat heavy. It is weird saying that, but I've found that I had multiple kill conditions in my hand even after trying to brainstorm them away. This is another reason to have a second wish. If that card was a Wish instead of say another DP or DD, it would allow me to burn the wish and get something that would actually do something.

I will goldfish some more tonight and post some possible changes, one of them may be moving a DP to the wish board for increased flexibility. That may be totally wrong though, but experimentation is what makes these decks good.

[Pelikanudo]

It is quite obvious that you put a lot of thought into this, much more than I have in my ~30 minutes to a hour of goldfishing. I think we may just have different opinions on the best ways to go about winning. The earlier the game, the better Empty becomes. I found that I could very rarely get turn 1 or turn 2 Empty the Warrens with this build of the deck. I haven't quite pinpointed why that is exactly. It could be a handful of things such as being red mana restricted, or not enough rituals/storm count to make it worth while, it could also be my mindset of playing the deck. I am always kinda afraid to go for Empty if it is past turn 1 or 2. I would much rather get a kill with Tendrils. I guess I am just used to play ANT/Doomsday. I only dabbled in TES a bit, so that may just be a mindset difference.




One thing I noticed is that it seemed that PiF was less consistent without Tendrils in the main. You mention that Doomsday would solve those issues, but there will be cases where you will be unable to get into a DD pile. I know from playing Doomsday to hold extra probes and cantrips just in case, but missing top is a big deal for me when you want to ensure getting into a pile. This could also just be a mindset difference that I need to adjust/account for.


This is the only slot that seems to me not 100% sure - again I set Tendrils Main - to be more standard , maybe I switch to EtW at some point... don't know...


I didn't give my reasoning for 2 wishes, my apologies. It wasn't to have more threats per se. It was to increase flexibility. I was possibly trying to account for a situation that came up that I would have to Wish for a DD then be unable to finish the kill by not having a way to get the tendrils. That was why I said that having a Tendrils in the main may account for that. Also having a second wish allows us to wish for a particular piece of hate such as a sweeper, or a discard spell while maintaining our capability to have another Wish just in case we need to PiF to get more mana/action.

the single B.W. is mainly for:
1. better DD Piles
1.1. Allows to kill avoiding Tahlias and Etherswon, even in first game, with Past The Turn Piles
2. It is a Threat by itself
3. it can be considered as the 8th Disuption

With DD you just don't need several pieces of Anti Hate, the same is happens NOW from D.P. era!

To be fair, that was 2 years ago and it is a different type of deck. Also, an indication that a deck done very well, doesn't mean that it is perfect and cannot be improved upon. I would rather have a more stable mana source. This may again be a difference in mindset. I don't like to go off as soon as possible. I like to go off when I know the coast is reasonably clear.



In most cases, IU is dead as I've found that cracking an LED to get the double blue seems to be the line that happens most of the time. Another thing I've noticed is that the deck may be too threat heavy. It is weird saying that, but I've found that I had multiple kill conditions in my hand even after trying to brainstorm them away. This is another reason to have a second wish. If that card was a Wish instead of say another DP or DD, it would allow me to burn the wish and get something that would actually do something.

I will goldfish some more tonight and post some possible changes, one of them may be moving a DP to the wish board for increased flexibility. That may be totally wrong though, but experimentation is what makes these decks good.

Well, this is the unique dead card then.

The unique thing I dount is to swith to more Blue producers.... dont know - maybe taking out Balands for 3rd Underground sea could be enough as I really dont find 2nd Reed Producer needed...

[Redkid43]

Wow this is great stuff.

Being able to grab Probe and cast Doomsday to set up for a kill got me hooked right away. I'll be looking at this for sure.

[Dice_Box]

I feel like you need Ill Gotten Gains in there somewhere.

[Pelikanudo]

I feel like you need Ill Gotten Gains in there somewhere.

IGG is symetric and the meta beeing so Blue infested I don't believe it is an Option I considered from the beginning - I'm also a TES player and long time ago we took out IGG from side.

EDIT: I'm considering switching the manabase, I'll be updating the Primer accordingly.

[Echelon]

I would have named the deck The Shitstorm, rather than The Dark Storm. Just for lulz though. I mean, it's a heap of black and brown cards floating in a pool of blue. And yes, I'm ignoring the few red cards. Although it makes Burning Wish rather hilarious. Same goes for *Passed* In Flames. You even finish off your opponent with Tendrils of Agony, lol.

Alright, I'm done with my jokes.

[Pelikanudo]

I would have named the deck The Shitstorm, rather than The Dark Storm. Just for lulz though. I mean, it's a heap of black and brown cards floating in a pool of blue. And yes, I'm ignoring the few red cards. Although it makes Burning Wish rather hilarious. Same goes for *Passed* In Flames. You even finish off your opponent with Tendrils of Agony, lol.

Alright, I'm done with my jokes.

Ok, I caught the joke... my english is not as good. at first it seemed to me offensive...

Well I'm so excited for the incoming of this new card.... I look forward its release...

[CabalTherapy]

After reading the title I thought this would be a mono B Storm deck without LED, Infernal but with 4 ToA, 4 Petition, some Cruel Bargains or stuff like that...
Lake of the Dead + Urborg

[Lemnear]

I mentioned it already twice everytime the idea comes up to replace IT with DP: Yard-hate totally fucks this deck over. Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition and Past in Flames are immedately dead and unlike ANT you can't sit back and win with a Tutor chain as your tutor isn't working with Rest in Piece or the like on the table, nor can you use DP to double Rituals. I don't see how DP has any advantages over IT.

[Pelikanudo]

I mentioned it already twice everytime the idea comes up to replace IT with DP: Yard-hate totally fucks this deck over. Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition and Past in Flames are immedately dead and unlike ANT you can't sit back and win with a Tutor chain as your tutor isn't working with Rest in Piece or the like on the table, nor can you use DP to double Rituals. I don't see how DP has any advantages over IT.

I believe you need to evaluate the G.Y. Hate cards separately - I'll expose an example:

- Tormods Crypt: you can cast 2 spells after activation and again have the 3Black mana. I believe you just have to have in mind that the opp. will have anti G.Y. hate.
If you extrapolate this kind of G.Y. Hate for then, this same reason Dig Through Time or Snapcaster should be a bad cards - however I don't think DTT or Snap are bad cards.

- cards like DRS really don't affect as you just need 2 Instants or Sorceries only.

- The unique card I think can affect to D.P. is Rest In Peace, however even Miracles is again using DTT and only 2 copies are played in side, however we play 4 A.D. for both C.B. and RIP.

The main advantages of D.P. over I.T. are the 2 following:
a) you don't need to discard your hand to get a card you need
b) you can search any card in the deck - I.T. can search only copies of existing Cards in hand, unless you have 0 cards.

Other issues is that G.Y. hate comes in 2nd and 3rd games.

I need to strongly disagree on this.

[Lemnear]

I believe you need to evaluate the G.Y. Hate cards separately - I'll expose an example:

- Tormods Crypt: you can cast 2 spells after activation and again have the 3Black mana. I believe you just have to have in mind that the opp. will have anti G.Y. hate.
If you extrapolate this kind of G.Y. Hate for then, this same reason Dig Through Time or Snapcaster should be a bad cards - however I don't think DTT or Snap are bad cards.

- cards like DRS really don't affect as you just need 2 Instants or Sorceries only.

- The unique card I think can affect to D.P. is Rest In Peace, however even Miracles is again using DTT and only 2 copies are played in side, however we play 4 A.D. for both C.B. and RIP.

The main advantages of D.P. over I.T. are the 2 following:
a) you don't need to discard your hand to get a card you need
b) you can search any card in the deck - I.T. can search only copies of existing Cards in hand, unless you have 0 cards.

Other issues is that G.Y. hate comes in 2nd and 3rd games.

I need to strongly disagree on this.

You overlook the accumulation of issues. Why should your opponent sac Crypt before your combo turn? Do you opt to respond with two instants while your 5cc spell is on the stack provoking the activation of the Crypt?

Snapcaster is an optional card and DTT does not care about a certain graveyard constellation even DRS can fuck with. Topic of DRS: You think two instants/sorceries in your yard are enough? You are aware that you need Rituals in your yard for the PIF loop? DP is just another weak link in the chain once your opponent attacks your yard. Pointing to Decay is totally off. Miracles plays Counterbalance, Meddling Mages and Rest in Piece, so how many Decays do you think you can play to deal with all of these must-answers? 7?

Your "advantages" have no real value in the end. Do you want to pay 5mana to search up ... what? Anything other than an engine which IT can too? What is the advantage to cast DP and having handcards left? It's not that you run FoW/Misdirection like the old Vintage equivalent.

Except DRS you are right about yard-hate most likely being an issue postboard, but lets not forget that a 5cc spells interacts horribly with LEDs and against softcounters in general. It also looks like you are underselling ITs ability to double Rituals.

[Sedris]

I think if there will be a deck that has Dark Petition into Past in Flames or Dark Petition chain as it's main way to get the kill condition, it should run maindeck Flusterstorms/Force of Wills and no Lion's Eye Diamonds. If this does not work out well imo the best usage of Petition is to put it into a Doomsday Deck for having additional Doomsdays (and replace Burning Wish because Burning Wish imo (!only imo!) sucks in DD and then you could play 1 of Past in Flames/Empty Main to have an alternate kill beside the usual Doomsday plan), to play it as a 1 of in TES or other Burning Wish storm decks or to just run a couple of them maindeck in Infernal Tutor + LED based decks. This gives us a bunch of options to consider for a possible better or odd storm deck than the current ones, should be enough to make it at least somewhere playable and maybe it is not even that but we will see.

Aside from that I think that Lemnear pointed out the main issues of the card being a main strategy of a deck very well and you should think about them before investing a lot of time in testing or building the deck. I honestly think there will be a way this card being a staple in a storm deck but it will not be that easy to discover imo.

[Noxwalrus]

I had been brainstorming something like this. Had you considered increasing the PiF count? I think running 2 or 3 PiF could really help some of the long game, fights through counters like a beast, and could make the deck a bit simpler to pilot over the doomsday version (even though I love doomsday).

Another consideration: without the reliance on LED, wouldn't it be possible to maindeck FoW as a protection spell? 3 cabal therapy/4 force (or even 4 therapy/3 flusterstorm, ect.) seems viable as a protection package. This means all of our disruption can hit hatebears like thalia and friends.

[Noxwalrus]

Lemnear, I think you're hating a bit too much on spell mastery. GY hate is already a weakness of storm, yet people are dropping ad naus left and right to pack more PiF (even weaker to GY hate than DP). Sure it's a weakness of the card, but do you really think Wizards would just hand over a 2 mana unconditional tutor? IT has its weaknesses as it's nearly a 2 card combo instead of a straight up demonic tutor. DP needs some building around, but I think the pay off could well be worth it. Especially because being able to cut/ignore LED means that a DP storm deck can run FoW or flusterstorm maindeck.

[IlCannone]

What I like about ANT in the current configuration (2 Pif 1 Empty 1 Tendrils main, 1 Ad Nauseam sb) is that I have an easy way to kill if there is no GY interaction, can drop some dudes very fast don't loose to Leylines and can easily win without any GY at all after boarding.

And I would not give that up for a new deck which relies even more on the GY than my current configuration, so till now I'm not satisfied with Petition.
But I also may be wrong and it's more powerful than thought. Till now it is just personal taste after some playtesting.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, I think you're hating a bit too much on spell mastery. GY hate is already a weakness of storm, yet people are dropping ad naus left and right to pack more PiF (even weaker to GY hate than DP). Sure it's a weakness of the card, but do you really think Wizards would just hand over a 2 mana unconditional tutor? IT has its weaknesses as it's nearly a 2 card combo instead of a straight up demonic tutor. DP needs some building around, but I think the pay off could well be worth it. Especially because being able to cut/ignore LED means that a DP storm deck can run FoW or flusterstorm maindeck.

It's a weakness of ANT only as TES or Doomday are totally unaffected by graveyard-hate and for ANT you just cut another notch into an already fragile branch if you remove the option to Tutor chain against present yard-hate AND have to cut Ad Nauseam as a result of using 5cc Tutors instead of 2cc ones. The problems pile up.

"Being able to cut LED" ... do you read what you wrote? Is it really worth to cut Legacys strongest and fastest mana acceleration for running a second angle of protection which is also based on carddisadvantage (FoW)? The Vintage FoW Storm decks of old ran on a principle which is not to mimic in Legacy thanks to the lack of artifact mana and Draw7s anyways. There is no appeal in cutting Infernal + LED just to run FoW instead of discard.

Dark Petition does not even improve Doomsday imo as the hilarious cost requires you to run Cabal Rituals in addition to Dark Rituals which lead the previous compact kill of Doomsday ad absurdum: Why bother with Doomsday if you could outright kill with PIF as you already clogging your deck with Petal/LED/DR/CR/Tutor?

[Pelikanudo]

You overlook the accumulation of issues. Why should your opponent sac Crypt before your combo turn? Do you opt to respond with two instants while your 5cc spell is on the stack provoking the activation of the Crypt?

.

No I don't expect the opponent sacrifices T.C. before my Combo Turn

A typical scenario I've found is:
you play Cabal Ritual having Threshold - What the opp. will do: Sacrifice Tormods so you do not have Threshold? or letting you have 5B mana?, regardless this OR assuming the opp. will wait for the PiF Loop, you can next play D.P. and in here - yes - Opp. will Sacrifice T.C. - Exactly at this point you can manage T.C. with 2 more Instants like D.R. and B.S. OR you just can play the tough 5 mana D.P. costs.

Anyway - you play 7 discards effects and likely you'll board 2 more - I'm thinking in adding a 3rd discard spell to the Side....




Snapcaster is an optional card and DTT does not care about a certain graveyard constellation even DRS can fuck with. Topic of DRS: You think two instants/sorceries in your yard are enough? You are aware that you need Rituals in your yard for the PIF loop? DP is just another weak link in the chain once your opponent attacks your yard. Pointing to Decay is totally off. Miracles plays Counterbalance, Meddling Mages and Rest in Piece, so how many Decays do you think you can play to deal with all of these must-answers? 7?

PiF is an alternate Engine in this Specific Storm Build - you can use Doomsday also. PiF is not the main Engine.
I pointed Decay, but yes you missed that the deck plays 7 discard and you can side in 2 more, there is also CoV and Massacre - note that in here you can play all the Massacre you want



Your "advantages" have no real value in the end. Do you want to pay 5mana to search up ... what? Anything other than an engine which IT can too? What is the advantage to cast DP and having handcards left? It's not that you run FoW/Misdirection like the old Vintage equivalent.


I've found a lot of advantages, the main is that you can search a LED which you don't have in hand - Great! - this means +1 mana.
Another advantage is that you can search the key card beeing as much a O card advantage If Opp. Fows you you D.P. played via Cabal Ritual.
Another is that you can play DD with no need of having Senseis --> If you have DD but not G.P. you can search for G.P to get a Cantrip Doomsday Pile - you can search Doomsday if you do not have it but you have G.P.



Except DRS you are right about yard-hate most likely being an issue postboard, but lets not forget that a 5cc spells interacts horribly with LEDs and against softcounters in general. It also looks like you are underselling ITs ability to double Rituals.


yes, I need to agree in here... I noticed that lately that you need the tough 5 mana it costs therefore you NEED OR D.R. or C.R., thats why I'm evaluatign in playing any number of RoFilth...



Related other Posts:
- LED is the best card in any Storm deck - I don't evaluate take it at all.
- 1 PiF is enough - I don't want so much G.Y. dependancy - and again we have to differentiate what it is G.Y. --> paying 5 mana instead of 2 to get the same win is G.Y. dependancy? I don't think so - for me this is paying more mana in order to win. Examples:

a) Dredge can not win IF there is a RiP in play.
b) TDS can not win IF you can not get +3 mana D.P. requires to win - remember D.P. gets you DD which is absolutly Non G.Y. dependant.

EDIT: I'm evaluating :
a) putting I.T. in side to make that solely B.W. less useless
b) taking out B.W. then include X - X can be RoFilth or I.T. really don't know. and maybe use Meditate instead of IU...

Opinions?

for me a) seems better, but dont know I'll be doing some testing...

[Lemnear]

No I don't expect the opponent sacrifices T.C. before my Combo Turn

A typical scenario I've found is:
you play Cabal Ritual having Threshold - What the opp. will do: Sacrifice Tormods so you do not have Threshold? or letting you have 5B mana?, regardless this OR assuming the opp. will wait for the PiF Loop, you can next play D.P. and in here - yes - Opp. will Sacrifice T.C. - Exactly at this point you can manage T.C. with 2 more Instants like D.R. and B.S. OR you just can play the tough 5 mana D.P. costs.

Anyway - you play 7 discards effects and likely you'll board 2 more - I'm thinking in adding a 3rd discard spell to the Side....

So you talk about a scenario, in which you have at least 4 mana on the board, Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition in your hand and 2 out of a maximum of 11 remaining Instants in your deck, also in hand. In top of that your opponent is not allowed to have any Daze/FoW/Wasteland/Flusterstorm/Pierce/Thalia/Caninist/Duress/whatsoever in the meanwhile and in addition to the Crypt.

I'm not impressed.


PiF is an alternate Engine in this Specific Storm Build - you can use Doomsday also. PiF is not the main Engine.
I pointed Decay, but yes you missed that the deck plays 7 discard and you can side in 2 more, there is also CoV and Massacre - note that in here you can play all the Massacre you want

If you look at Doomsday as your primary engine for whatever reason, the access is still limited, if DP is shut down with your graveyard. Also: if you are fine that the access to your engines is shut off by yard-hate, why not run Dig Though Time to grab Doomsday? The deck looks like its lost between ANT and Doomsday, lacking fundamental cards on both spectrums.


I've found a lot of advantages, the main is that you can search a LED which you don't have in hand - Great! - this means +1 mana.
Another advantage is that you can search the key card beeing as much a O card advantage If Opp. Fows you you D.P. played via Cabal Ritual.
Another is that you can play DD with no need of having Senseis --> If you have DD but not G.P. you can search for G.P to get a Cantrip Doomsday Pile - you can search Doomsday if you do not have it but you have G.P.

Its an advantage to pay 5 mana to fetch LED? Even Grim Tutor, Diabolic Tutor or Tolaria West are cheaper for that and I lack understanding how you want to do that at all with Daze/Wasteland in the metagame. 2-for-2 with FoW my ass, if it's so easy to just Daze/Pierce/Fluster a 5cc spell instead.

Just saying: DTT fetches you Doomsday AND Probe at times.

[Pelikanudo]

So you talk about a scenario, in which you have at least 4 mana on the board, Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition in your hand and 2 out of a maximum of 11 remaining Instants in your deck, also in hand. In top of that your opponent is not allowed to have any Daze/FoW/Wasteland/Flusterstorm/Pierce/Thalia/Caninist/Duress/whatsoever in the meanwhile and in addition to the Crypt.

I'm not impressed.
.

Well, we are talking about Graveyard hate and a specific scenario which involves Tormods crypt. Sure if the opponent has in hand lots of Flusters/daze/Fows and a tormods in hand you need to draw all your discard/Decays to avoid this... and win
it is true.. having 2 instants in adition to the before metioned seems not common...




If you look at Doomsday as your primary engine for whatever reason, the access is still limited, if DP is shut down with your graveyard. Also: if you are fine that the access to your engines is shut off by yard-hate, why not run Dig Though Time to grab Doomsday? The deck looks like its lost between ANT and Doomsday, lacking fundamental cards on both spectrums.


DTT does not guarranty a card if you play 2 copies of it.



Its an advantage to pay 5 mana to fetch LED? Even Grim Tutor, Diabolic Tutor or Tolaria West are cheaper for that and I lack understanding how you want to do that at all with Daze/Wasteland in the metagame. 2-for-2 with FoW my ass, if it's so easy to just Daze/Pierce/Fluster a 5cc spell instead.

Just saying: DTT fetches you Doomsday AND Probe at times.

it is one of the advantages of playing a Demonic Tutor that costs 5 and eventually produces BBB - you can search not only LED, disruption and whatever thing you need.
Virtually it is cheaper than those cards you mention - 5 mana - 3 = 2 mana.

as mentioned I need to agree that you need mana to cast D.P. that is why I'm evaluating in adding RoFilth in adition to C.R. and D.R. to beeing able to cast the tough 5 mana it costs.

also, you can cast your duress, distuption until you see the coast clear and then play rituals and D.P.

[Jay_Gatz]

DTT does not guarranty a card if you play 2 copies of it.

If your deck is built around Dig and Doomsday I'm guessing the first 4 cards on the list are Doomsday.



it is one of the advantages of playing a Demonic Tutor that costs 5 and eventually produces BBB - you can search not only LED, disruption and whatever thing you need.
Virtually it is cheaper than those cards you mention - 5 mana - 3 = 2 mana.

as mentioned I need to agree that you need mana to cast D.P. that is why I'm evaluating in adding RoFilth in adition to C.R. and D.R. to beeing able to cast the tough 5 mana it costs.

also, you can cast your duress, distuption until you see the coast clear and then play rituals and D.P.

These are fairly valid points but they all mean you can only ever really cast DP on the turn you intend to combo after already having invested at least one card to cast it. You can't use it as a setup card in any way.

[Lemnear]

If your deck is built around Dig and Doomsday I'm guessing the first 4 cards on the list are Doomsday.

You can't imagine how frustrating it is for me to see that there is actually the need to mention something that obvious.


These are fairly valid points but they all mean you can only ever really cast DP on the turn you intend to combo after already having invested at least one card to cast it. You can't use it as a setup card in any way.

Which brings me back to DTT: You cast it eot and your opponent cannot sac Tormods Crypt when you pay the cost, you get TWO CARDS in your hand, untap and have all your mana available to combo. No need for Cabal ritual or bothering about reactive yard-hate. Dark Petition however needs the Cabals aka occupying more slots and you have to pay the two extra mana for Petition IN YOUR COMBO TURN.

[Pelikanudo]

Related to this:



- If your deck is built around Dig and Doomsday I'm guessing the first 4 cards on the list are Doomsday.

- You can't imagine how frustrating it is for me to see that there is actually the need to mention something that obvious.


maybe I miss something, please forgive me - sometimes I am dealing with 7 dimensions matrix or Asycnronous programming and I sometimes just do not understand well the words or maybe it is just I'm bad at english...
I'll try to make it clearer.

a) Doomsday it is not the main engine - this deck uses 2 engines:
a.1) DD
a.2) PiF
b) I noticed that playing several copies of Doomsday it is not worth:
- Several in hand are useless
- Can be fetches via D.P.
- as it is an Alternate Engine - I believe 2 is ok.
c) DTT in the main for this deck is antisinergic with:
- C.R.
- D.P.
d) I find DTT a litle slow to make it good in a Storm Shell except in Solidarity or S&T!
e) If finally the deck plays 2 copies of DD and 1 Copy of PiF , as said DTT does not guarranty fetching one of this cards.

[Lemnear]

Related to this:


- If your deck is built around Dig and Doomsday I'm guessing the first 4 cards on the list are Doomsday.

- You can't imagine how frustrating it is for me to see that there is actually the need to mention something that obvious.


maybe I miss something, please forgive me - sometimes I am dealing with 7 dimensions matrix or Asycnronous programming and I sometimes just do not understand well the words or maybe it is just I'm bad at english...
I'll try to make it clearer.

a) Doomsday it is not the main engine - this deck uses 2 engines:
a.1) DD
a.2) PiF
b) I noticed that playing several copies of Doomsday it is not worth:
- Several in hand are useless
- Can be fetches via D.P.
- as it is an Alternate Engine - I believe 2 is ok.
c) DTT in the main for this deck is antisinergic with:
- C.R.
- D.P.
d) I find DTT a litle slow to make it good in a Storm Shell except in Solidarity or S&T!
e) If finally the deck plays 2 copies of DD and 1 Copy of PiF , as said DTT does not guarranty fetching one of this cards.

No problem, I'm in the mood to elaborate.

Your argument against DTT was that you run only 2 Doomsdays and Jays slightly sarcastic question was, why you don't run 4 Doomsdays then, to profit from the sheer power of DTT AND make it more reliable, if you stated that PIF is not the decks main engine and the logic conclusion was, that it has to be Doomsday then.

I think I understand now that you want to see PIF and Doomsday as equal in this list, but for me as a deck designer, it does not make much sense to run two engines which occupy both a lot of slots in the first place, but also lose to the same angles of hate. There is no sidestepping of hate, which would be the main reason to run two engines, as both your engines not only bank on a lethal Tendrils, but also both rely on the graveyard (Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition, Past in Flames). None of your engines gets around Leyline of the Void/Sanctity just to pick an example to show the problem.

Please stop to put everything what I said out of context. I never said you should run DTT alongside Cabal Ritual and Dark Petition, so stop trying to form a counterargument out of stuff I never said or suggested. Its also a bad habit to measure DTT based on your 2/1 Split of Doomsday/PIF without questioning if the split/engines/numbers make sense in the first place (which is what I doubt and stated why in this post). Its a lot like auto-dismissing Ad Nauseam in Storm simply because you decided to run 4 PIF and 4 Dark Petition for whatever reason and say "Well, Ad Nauseam is bad in here as 4/4 on PIF/Dark Petition HAS to be right for storm". Maybe it is; maybe not. Just don't rule out everything that does not work with the random numbers of random engines you picked, solely for that reason alone

DTT is perfectly fine to setup turn 4 wins and if you want to win faster in general, don't pick up Doomsday in the first place. Also: No one stated you have to run a storm kill if you are on Doomsday; Maniac and Shelldock are known alternatives to dodge common Storm hate

[Pelikanudo]

No problem, I'm in the mood to elaborate.

Your argument against DTT was that you run only 2 Doomsdays and Jays slightly sarcastic question was, why you don't run 4 Doomsdays then, to profit from the sheer power of DTT AND make it more reliable, if you stated that PIF is not the decks main engine and the logic conclusion was, that it has to be Doomsday then.

I think I understand now that you want to see PIF and Doomsday as equal in this list, but for me as a deck designer, it does not make much sense to run two engines which occupy both a lot of slots in the first place, but also lose to the same angles of hate. There is no sidestepping of hate, which would be the main reason to run two engines, as both your engines not only bank on a lethal Tendrils, but also both rely on the graveyard (Cabal Ritual, Dark Petition, Past in Flames). None of your engines gets around Leyline of the Void/Sanctity just to pick an example to show the problem.

Please stop to put everything what I said out of context. I never said you should run DTT alongside Cabal Ritual and Dark Petition, so stop trying to form a counterargument out of stuff I never said or suggested. Its also a bad habit to measure DTT based on your 2/1 Split of Doomsday/PIF without questioning if the split/engines/numbers make sense in the first place (which is what I doubt and stated why in this post). Its a lot like auto-dismissing Ad Nauseam in Storm simply because you decided to run 4 PIF and 4 Dark Petition for whatever reason and say "Well, Ad Nauseam is bad in here as 4/4 on PIF/Dark Petition HAS to be right for storm". Maybe it is; maybe not. Just don't rule out everything that does not work with the random numbers of random engines you picked, solely for that reason alone

DTT is perfectly fine to setup turn 4 wins and if you want to win faster in general, don't pick up Doomsday in the first place. Also: No one stated you have to run a storm kill if you are on Doomsday; Maniac and Shelldock are known alternatives to dodge common Storm hate

I will state that I chose Doomsday because in my opnion is absolutly G.Y. independant - sure if the opp. has a RiP and you need to cast D.P. to search D.D. you will need to pay the tough 5 mana it costs with no BBB, but you still can win. the same does not happen with PiF. you can not win with PiF if you have a RiP in play.
The requirements for a Cantrip Pile are:
BBB + UU + Cantrip
The requirements for a Cantrip Pile IF you do not have Doomsday are and there is a RiP in play:
BBB+BBBBB+UU + Cantrip.
Absolutly 'nothing' else.

Please sorry me for everything that could bother you somehow from my part.

[Lemnear]

The requirements for a Cantrip Pile are:
BBB + UU + Cantrip

The requirements for a Cantrip Pile IF you do not have Doomsday are and there is a RiP in play:
BBB+BBBBB+UU + Cantrip.


My point is the following: 10 mana + a required cantrip + an opponent unable to interact, is an absolutely unrealistic scenario for compeditive Legacy and I hope you see that this is not an alternative route to take, if your Past in Flames and Cabal Rituals (how you wanna get the 5 mana for Dark Petition anyways?) are shut off.

[Pelikanudo]

My point is the following: 10 mana + a required cantrip + an opponent unable to interact, is an absolutely unrealistic scenario for compeditive Legacy and I hope you see that this is not an alternative route to take, if your Past in Flames and Cabal Rituals (how you wanna get the 5 mana for Dark Petition anyways?) are shut off.

Well, I just only have to say that this is an scenario to avoid RiP, LED in here can help you to get this mana, you only need 5 for the tough D.P.

I need to agree that If I encounter along the games in my tournaments trying to reach 10 mana to get my win I will leave this archetype, however I don't think this will happen that much...

I' ve been looking recently the TES Site and TES has changed from having 3 C.M to 1 or even 0 (your last build) maybe because of this new card? for that scenario to work: B.W.->D.P.->A.N. = 9 mana then I ask you: is this also realistic? I dont think it is realistic, however I think it is a path.

[Lemnear]

Well, I just only have to say that this is an scenario to avoid RiP, LED in here can help you to get this mana, you only need 5 for the tough D.P.

I need to agree that If I encounter along the games in my tournaments trying to reach 10 mana to get my win I will leave this archetype, however I don't think this will happen that much...

I' ve been looking recently the TES Site and TES has changed from having 3 C.M to 1 or even 0 (your last build) maybe because of this new card? for that scenario to work: B.W.->D.P.->A.N. = 9 mana then I ask you: is this also realistic? I dont think it is realistic, however I think it is a path.

Its still a mana and an additional required cantrip less. You can also Wish and fire off Dark Petition next turn and Cabal Ritual paying the 5 initial cost for Dark Petition and you're back to 7 mana optional playlines like if you use Infernal to fetch Ad Nauseam. Still: different deck, different topic.

[wizard_of_gore]

Hi guys! (and sorry for my bad english grammar) :)

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post about some ideas i have in recent time, but it has some similarities for sure.
First of all, I'm not storm player at all, but when i saw Dark Petition spoiled in magic origins, I got some goosebumbs! :)

So, is it possible to play dark petition deck without lion's eye diamond? I'm asking this not because of budget reasons, but because infernal tutor really is not essential if we build deck around Dark Petition. So, I'm toying with something like this recently:


3x young pyromancer
4x cabal ritual
4x dark ritual
4x lotus petal
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x gitaxian probe
3x preordain
4x cabal therapy
2x duress
2x force of will
3x dark petition
1x past in flames
1x tendrils of agony
1x empty the warrens

16 lands (standard configuration of fetches, duals, basics)

So, guys, what do you think about playing young pyromancer in deck like this? Chaining cantrips into cabal therapies/duress can overwhelm board to stall game enough to buy some time to combo off, or even win game on it's own. It can take another angle of attack, and doesn't mess with initial gameplan. I found prety strong chaining couple of dark petitions (dark petition into dark petition into past in flames) to have 2 available tutor in grave and provides us with some verastility in storming process.
Well, is it possible to construct deck like that to be more flexible ? We can play own force of wills if needed too, so i don't know how good is that, but I belive it's some upside.

[Pelikanudo]

...

not having 4 LEDs in a Storm shell in legacy is absolutly nonsense. LED is the most degenerate card in legacy for storm archetypes. I think I stated this before. I hope there will be no need to say this again.

[Lemnear]

not having 4 LEDs in a Storm shell in legacy is absolutly nonsense. LED is the most degenerate card in legacy for storm archetypes. I think I stated this before. I hope there will be no need to say this again.

Thats not even the point. The joke is that the list he presents just scoops to yard-hate unlike ANT and that the list gives fucking zero reasons to run Petition over Infernal Tutor

[wizard_of_gore]

Thats not even the point. The joke is that the list he presents just scoops to yard-hate unlike ANT and that the list gives fucking zero reasons to run Petition over Infernal Tutor

hey guys, no hard feelings please! I just wanted to ask someone more experienced with storm archetype, is it ok to build deck around pyromancer in storm shell? I just said I like dark petition because it can function properly on its own unlike Infernal Tutor which work only under LED (of corse - in search for any card in deck). I'm gonna repeat myself - i'm not storm player, neither i have experience with those decks. All I wanted to ask someone is it possible to build deck with pyromancers which uses stormmechanic as main engine. Do you have any ideas how the deck should look like to function well?

I'm here for advices, not to piss off some stubborn stormplayers hot shots...:cool:

[Lemnear]

hey guys, no hard feelings please! I just wanted to ask someone more experienced with storm archetype, is it ok to build deck around pyromancer in storm shell? I just said I like dark petition because it can function properly on its own unlike Infernal Tutor which work only under LED (of corse - in search for any card in deck). I'm gonna repeat myself - i'm not storm player, neither i have experience with those decks. All I wanted to ask someone is it possible to build deck with pyromancers which uses stormmechanic as main engine. Do you have any ideas how the deck should look like to function well?

I'm here for advices, not to piss off some stubborn stormplayers hot shots...:cool:

Ignoring the last line of your post, the concept has serious flaws which are imo pretty obvious. Petition is really, really bad compared to infernal tutor if your opponent shuts off the graveyard as you can't Tutor chain like you would with IT. Pyromancer is bad, if you pair it with Rituals and the storm concept as those spells interact poorly with their complete different gameplan: Storm wants to cast its kill-card last, Pyromancer wants to be cast before you start cantripping. For me it would have made more sense, if you would have chosen to test 4 Empty the Warrens rather than those Pyromancers to fit in the concept of storm and playing rituals.

[emidln]

One reason why DDFT manages any semblance of viability is that it often kills for 3-5 (BBB, BBBU, BBB1U) upfront mana on the combo turn due to SDT and double cantrip piles. This accounts for the ability of Dark Rit/Rain of Filth/Cabal Ritual + Doomsday plus 2-3 lands to be lethal. It makes the deck extremely explosive for a very moderate investment in cards. If you need 5+ mana upfront to routinely being your combo, Doomsday doesn't seem to be a very compelling card. In fact, while we've evolved DDFT, we managed to cut basically every non-Doomsday card that cost more than 2 mana from the deck, and we play more lands than any other combo deck (17-19). The high end of the curve has recently been Burning Wish and Dig Through Time, both of which offer to find Doomsday for two mana and a single card on a pre-combo turn. If I always had to cast Doomsday the turn I wished for it (hello Infernal Tutor), I would not play it.

If you already have to have 5 mana, wouldn't you rather cast Ad Nauseam?

[Admiral_Arzar]

If you need 5+ mana upfront to routinely being your combo, Doomsday doesn't seem to be a very compelling card. In fact, while we've evolved DDFT, we managed to cut basically every non-Doomsday card that cost more than 2 mana from the deck, and we play more lands than any other combo deck (17-19). The high end of the curve has recently been Burning Wish and Dig Through Time, both of which offer to find Doomsday for two mana and a single card on a pre-combo turn. If I always had to cast Doomsday the turn I wished for it (hello Infernal Tutor), I would not play it.

If you already have to have 5 mana, wouldn't you rather cast Ad Nauseam?

This is actually the most compelling argument against Petition I have seen. The card is fine mid-combo, but starting the combo with it just feels awful as it guarantees an investment of at least one additional card, ending in a blowout if your opponent has countermagic. Even Grim Tutor can find business without you having to pour mana into it for a possible payoff which doesn't happen if your opponent has anything relevant. On a side note, your DTT/Wish list makes me want to play Doomsday again for the first time in 4-ish years.

[guillemnicolau]

If you already have to have 5 mana, wouldn't you rather cast Ad Nauseam?

Because you will have 4 Dark Petitions in your deck, but probably not 4 Ad Nauseams.
In the typical ANT list you play 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 at the most, because the nature of the card doesn't allow you to play many high costs in your deck. Dark Petition doesn't have this restriction, so you could even play Force of Wills, like in the Vintage version of doomsday.

[Lemnear]

Because you will have 4 Dark Petitions in your deck, but probably not 4 Ad Nauseams.
In the typical ANT list you play 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 at the most, because the nature of the card doesn't allow you to play many high costs in your deck. Dark Petition doesn't have this restriction, so you could even play Force of Wills, like in the Vintage version of doomsday.

Stop vintage comparisons right here. There is no Lotus, no Gush or Ancestral Recall to build very specific and compact Doomsday Lists in Legacy and the benefit of FoW is highly questionable

[Pelikanudo]

One reason why DDFT manages any semblance of viability is that it often kills for 3-5 (BBB, BBBU, BBB1U) upfront mana on the combo turn due to SDT and double cantrip piles. This accounts for the ability of Dark Rit/Rain of Filth/Cabal Ritual + Doomsday plus 2-3 lands to be lethal. It makes the deck extremely explosive for a very moderate investment in cards. If you need 5+ mana upfront to routinely being your combo, Doomsday doesn't seem to be a very compelling card. In fact, while we've evolved DDFT, we managed to cut basically every non-Doomsday card that cost more than 2 mana from the deck, and we play more lands than any other combo deck (17-19). The high end of the curve has recently been Burning Wish and Dig Through Time, both of which offer to find Doomsday for two mana and a single card on a pre-combo turn. If I always had to cast Doomsday the turn I wished for it (hello Infernal Tutor), I would not play it.

If you already have to have 5 mana, wouldn't you rather cast Ad Nauseam?

Well, I have to say that all you stated is right...

However the reason why I included 2 copies of DD is that I just want other symetric ways of comboing with NO G.Y. dependency - sure you'll say that with D.P. it doesn't seem coherent to argue I want a way to avoid G.Y. dependancy but Ad Nauseam is not an option in this deck... therefore the unique engine I found was DD. as I said before for a Cantrip pile which involves a scenario of Rest in Peace + Cantrip in hand you'll need the tough 3BB + BBB + UU, but that is the way to go if you want to avoid G.Y. dependancy with this deck...

Anyway drawing more than 1 copy of DD is crap and when long time ago I played DDFT I remember a lot of scenarios which involved B.W.->DD having senseis and LED which wasn't that bad...

EDIT: I evaluate D.P as a 2 mana card most of the times (5-3) - therefore 1B + BBB + UU + Cantrip it is like playing I.T. -> A.N with no need to have C.M. or mana floating or high life total, but I need to agree that for a dedicated DD list playing 4 DD or B.W.-> DD and playing it in the next turn is much less mana intensive...
I'm thinking in including 1 RoF, not sure but maybe 1DD is the rigth move...

[emidln]

Because you will have 4 Dark Petitions in your deck, but probably not 4 Ad Nauseams.
In the typical ANT list you play 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 at the most, because the nature of the card doesn't allow you to play many high costs in your deck. Dark Petition doesn't have this restriction, so you could even play Force of Wills, like in the Vintage version of doomsday.

If you want to play Force of Wills in your maindeck with multiple Doomsdays, you almost assuredly want 4x Dig Through Time, 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, and 4x Gitaxian Probe. Before you play Force of Will though, I'm pretty sure you'd be playing Dazes maindeck (it stops the most problematic plays from Storm's perspective, which is aggressive hatebear/counterbalance/chalices/trinispheres. I don't think you want to play Force of Will though, as it's pretty rare that opponents play respectable hate in g1 if they aren't playing Counterbalance or Chalice. Outside of those two cards (and the uncommon game-winning, unprotected combo piece), basically no card is worth 2 for 1ing yourself with a storm deck. Postboard, other things become scary (and Force is pretty reasonable in the sideboard of a Doomsday deck from recent experience). Maindeck, I'd rather have a combination of Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy and Dazes if I'm looking to maximize my mana.

What makes a 3BB way to cast Doomsday #5-8 better than splitting it up over two turns for 1R + BBB or in a single turn for 1RBBB? This is a serious question as the entire purpose of Doomsday in Legacy is to tutor for and abuse Lion's Eye Diamond (pretty easy to win when you cast 2-4 black lotus per game). With Burning Wish, I can fully abuse LED to pay for Doomsday, leading to me playing more cantrips (which trade for LEDs) instead of Cabal Rituals. More cantrips lead to more consistent games (and further fuel Dig Through Times if you're playing along at home).

The answer is probably Past in Flames, but Past in Flames seems very at odds with Doomsday (one wants rituals, the other wants cantrips). Further, without Lab Maniac, Burning Wishes, or Ill-Gotten Gains, you cannot aggressive cantrip into a pass the turn pile.

[Best Case Pass the Turn Pile Scenario w/o LM/BW/IGG)

[Top]
IU
DR
DR
PiF
Probe
ToA
[Bottom]

(Obviously you need to start the turn with one in your hand or graveyard (not IU/DR in yard)).

BUUR for 18 lifeloss and needing one of DR/IU/PiF/Cantrip (assuming Probe here for mana reasons)/ToA in hand next turn for a pass the turn pile is skeeeeetchy.

Being unable to aggressively Doomsday limits how your cantrips play (aggressive cantrips are good for PiF, bad for Doomsday) while making it very difficult to Doomsday through otherwise simple hate like Gaddock Teeg, Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 0, etc.

I'll bow out here as I'm not saying you should be playing Doomsday, but I'm extremely skeptical that you'd ever want a Legacy Doomsday deck with fewer than 4 Doomsday, 4 SDT and fewer than 17 draw spells. Playing less than that seems to lead to a lot of situations where you can Doomsday, but it won't win the game.

[iPhone7]

So the main benefits of adding Dark Petition to the deck are that it allows you to play Force of Will and Dig Through Time. By doing so we sacrifice the explosiveness of LED and Lion's Eye Diamond, and become more vulnerable to graveyard hate. I think that the best way to balance this is to add Rite of Flames and Burning Wishes to add more fast mana and ability to deal with hate. Here's my current list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Dark Petition
3 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Dig Through Time
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Cheons
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Void Snare

This list has been ok so far but could certainly use some tuning.

[Lemnear]

So the main benefits of adding Dark Petition to the deck are that it allows you to play Force of Will and Dig Through Time.

You still don't get it. Dark Petition is a very expensive and committing way of settin up Doomsday which requires you to run Cabal Ritual. Cabal Ritual however interacts very poorly with Dig Through Time (which is able to setup Doomsday by itself and ivalidating the whole Cabal ritual + Dark Petition nonsense in the process). Dark Petition and Dig Through Time DO NOT BELONG IN THE SAME LIST. You want to maximize the cantripping in this deck (to access doomsday) and not create a further redundancy of manaacceleration, which is Doomsdays job

[Pelikanudo]

@Stormers:

I've been thinking in adding a RoFilth to the list but I dont know what to take:

a) maybe 1 DD? - Im not sure then if the deck will lack of enough threats..
b) Maybe 1 Lotus petal? I really dont want to make the deck slower... I will only gain +2 mana in the 3rd turn.... and it is like having a petal for the 2nd turn....
c) maybe 1 land??

Please let me know your opinions!

[Lemnear]

@Stormers:

I've been thinking in adding a RoFilth to the list but I dont know what to take:

a) maybe 1 DD? - Im not sure then if the deck will lack of enough threats..
b) Maybe 1 Lotus petal? I really dont want to make the deck slower... I will only gain +2 mana in the 3rd turn.... and it is like having a petal for the 2nd turn....
c) maybe 1 land??

Please let me know your opinions!

I would stop trying to force a non-existing niche and non-working hybrid between the current iteration of Doomsday and ANT. The concepts don't work together even if they both run Dark Ritual.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Interesting, first time seeing this Dark Petition card.


In all honesty, the first thing that actually comes to mind in abusing this card is something more like a Trainwreck control deck that sits back and casts removal, but can use the Dark Petition to tutor and play a Liliana, Ensnaring Bridge, or some sort of answer in a whim. For storm, it's far worse than Ad Nauseum, but for a control deck it's absolute gold.

[Pelikanudo]

I would stop trying to force a non-existing niche and non-working hybrid between the current iteration of Doomsday and ANT. The concepts don't work together even if
they both run Dark Ritual.

you're absolutly wrong when you say that DD and ANT doesn't work in conjuntion, long time ago a deck which used both DD and Ad Nauseam worked. sure that you'll argue that this happened long time ago and the same could be applicable to full DD archetypes, but I think DD is not played because of its difficulty, I can guarranty that a DD build is strong in you test it. the approach is just similar but instead Ad Nauseam I use PiF - sure more grave dependant but this is something I need to test. I hope someday you see me in TC Decks reaching some top 8 at my monthly tournaments with this deck...

Apart would you answer my question? I think moving 1 bayou to the side and adding 1RoF is the right move, but not sure...

[Lemnear]

you're absolutly wrong when you say that DD and ANT doesn't work in conjuntion, long time ago a deck which used both DD and Ad Nauseam worked. sure that you'll argue that this happened long time ago and the same could be applicable to full DD archetypes, but I think DD is not played because of its difficulty, I can guarranty that a DD build is strong in you test it. the approach is just similar but instead Ad Nauseam I use PiF - sure more grave dependant but this is something I need to test. I hope someday you see me in TC Decks reaching some top 8 at my monthly tournaments with this deck...

Apart would you answer my question? I think moving 1 bayou to the side and adding 1RoF is the right move, but not sure...

Doomsday has the merrit of being essentially a three-card-combo between Ritual/DD/draw-effect which is a fact you cannot get around and is barely able to with without it's namesake card while still being weak to the usual storm hate which is the reason it doesn't see play. The point about "difficulty" is a hoax as you use in Vintage and Legacy a maximum of 4 different Standard piles, but remembering those seems to be that difficult for a large potion of players. It's ridiculous, really. If you look at ANt or S&T you see that those decks are much easier in terms of requirements to win, but DTT as cardadvantage engine AND Tutor might revive Doomsday, but Dark Petition dös not adress the problems at all.

I'm very active in the Doomsday thread and pushing the DTT + Doomsday + LabMan build as it is compact & clear. I hope you don't try to draw parallels betweena a cardadvantage engine like AN and a conditional Tutor...

[Pelikanudo]

Doomsday has the merrit of being essentially a three-card-combo between Ritual/DD/draw-effect which is a fact you cannot get around and is barely able to with without it's namesake card while still being weak to the usual storm hate which is the reason it doesn't see play. The point about "difficulty" is a hoax as you use in Vintage and Legacy a maximum of 4 different Standard piles, but remembering those seems to be that difficult for a large potion of players. It's ridiculous, really. If you look at ANt or S&T you see that those decks are much easier in terms of requirements to win, but DTT as cardadvantage engine AND Tutor might revive Doomsday, but Dark Petition dös not adress the problems at all.

I'm very active in the Doomsday thread and pushing the DTT + Doomsday + LabMan build as it is compact & clear. I hope you don't try to draw parallels betweena a cardadvantage engine like AN and a conditional Tutor...

It seems to me contradictory that you bet on DTT plus DD and not on D.P. plus DD OR PiF.
DTT is much more G.Y. dependant and much more slower than D.P.
the differences are not that much... 2 DD+1 B.W. < 4 DD in terms of Threat numbers With no G.Y. Dependancy (I'll remark that you'll need to pay the tough 9 mana with DTT, 5 only with D.P involving RiP scenarios)

Sure if you play a torunament you most of the times need 4 piles to work but if you need to win a specific match up the difficulty comes when you need to make Piles on the fly, I remember when I built my DD deck and reached top 8, my feeling was: this was likely the deck which limits the most the poker factor of MTG. Still prefer playing TES as the statistics calculations involved just makes me addict... sometimes I just guess the card I'm going to draw man!

EDIT: Well assuming you hate this build, pleeease could you answer my question I'll win a torunament with this boy! What do you bet?

[Lemnear]

EDIT: Well assuming you hate this build, pleeease could you answer my question I'll win a torunament with this boy! What do you bet?

Why do you ask ME for advice at the same time you ignore it in order to promote your build? I'd cut a DP first because drawing it while you already have Doomsday or drawing a second copy is iffy which is basically a similar Problem you took as reason to not run 4 Doomsdays, except that it's even worse. Why should I pick one of the three options you presented with neither making sense for me? Don't you see that you try to justify playing a 5cc setup Spell to Tutor for a 3cc setup Spell instead of running more of the 3cc setup Spell in the first place?

[Pelikanudo]

Why do you ask ME for advice at the same time you ignore it in order to promote your build? I'd cut a DP first because drawing it while you already have Doomsday or drawing a second copy is iffy which is basically a similar Problem you took as reason to not run 4 Doomsdays, except that it's even worse. Why should I pick one of the three options you presented with neither making sense for me? Don't you see that you try to justify playing a 5cc setup Spell to Tutor for a 3cc setup Spell instead of running more of the 3cc setup Spell in the first place?

Thanks for your answer
DDFT with ANT didn't run 4 DD long time ago either.
maybe it makes sense to cut 1 DD then.
I will make tests on -1DD or -1 Land and see... by the moment the results have been quite impressive...

[emidln]

Thanks for your answer
DDFT with ANT didn't run 4 DD long time ago either.
maybe it makes sense to cut 1 DD then.
I will make tests on -1DD or -1 Land and see... by the moment the results have been quite impressive...
The ddant lists also had 4 mystical tutor.