[Deck] Angel Stax 2.0 [Archive] - Page 2

emidln

05-17-2006, 05:45 PM

I ran Loxodon Gatekeeper when I was playing this deck. It worked out nicely.

First off, it's a creature. Thus it dies to your own Wrath of God not to mention a lot of other stuff. Second, its mana cost is actually worse than Kismet for this deck. WW can sometimes be difficult.

Outside of that, its effect is rather weak. You don't run Winter Orb. The only real thing that this would seem to stop would be Ichorid, but you should beat them anyway if you resolve a Ghostly Prison, Moat, or activate a Crypt (post-board) properly.

If I were in a bad meta that didn't make me want to run Suppression Field I'd probably try Winter Orb or simply forget the 2CC slot (making Chalice even better) and run an extra Moat (so you could run 4x Prison, 4x Wrath of God, 1x Moat), 1x Crucible, 1x Tabernacle, 1x Karn (Karn is hot when your opponents are bad and your smokestack doesn't cost 5 to turn into a 4/4 for the turn) and then rework the manabase to give me more acceleration. I might even consider an extra 3sphere because 3sphere really hammers bad decks (tier Z combo decks and stuff that has been hated out by uber-fast goblins and threshold but is still played).

Although in a bad meta that didn't require Suppression Field, I'd have fun an run a Transmute Artifact-based mono-U 5/3 deck that makes a Possessed Portal out of a Sui-Chi while going to town.

stompy

05-18-2006, 05:12 PM

So I tested last night on MWS for the first time ever, and out of 3 games, I had locks in all three resulting in wins.
I really appreciated the players and their patience (yo soy NOOB)

Anyway, the bottom line was, Suppression Field is way too strong to drop. I almost never liked Tangle Wire (but I can't cut it yet) and turn 2 Exalted Angel is some good. And the <player lost> message after a turn one Chalice for one is hilarity.
Mmm mm.
7 land that produce double mana is absolutely required. If not 8. Which leads me to think that as we say go, with nothing of importance tapped down, why can't we run some Genju of the Fields? In reality, if we drop the Tangle Wire count to 2, and 1 Port, we can effectively see a Genju rather quickly and activate with Tomb or Traitors. Having the bonus life cushion is alluring.
Thoughts?

emidln

05-18-2006, 05:57 PM

BlindMage

05-18-2006, 06:07 PM

Machinus

05-18-2006, 06:15 PM

I'd run 8 tangle wires if I could.

stompy

05-18-2006, 08:14 PM

Does anyone run Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai in Stax. I recently started playing Angel Stax, and this card seems like it would be tech, allowing you to easily maintain Stax@2 and likely allowing you to maintain Stax@3 if necessary. Has anyone tried it? I was thinking something like -1 wasteland, -1 port, +2 gods' eye.
Not to be a forum hack but it doesn't take much to read back a few posts....
God's eye in theory is great but doesn't do anything for us otherwise.

I am certainly not saying to cut the Wires, but I just have found them to be well, actually an annoyance for me as well. Yeah Chalice can be a problem for this, however that is the heart of this game though, understanding when you can play certain things.
I see it this way, if we sack a Plains to Stax that is enchanted with Genju, it comes back for us to play it again. So in a way it keeps us in a card advantage and a life point advantage.
I agree on the 4 Angels. I would like to see her often.

As far as mana accel, we can forget about it in white. With the exception of Wayfarer, we can only count on playing one land per turn. Diamond will have to suffice. Chrome Mox is so subpar that it isn't an option given the cards we'd have to pitch (ie the ones we need!)
Bigredmeanie had an idea with the Loxodon, but in the current aggro meta, Wrath is our best friend, the down side is the loss of an angel to it. That is why I believe Genju can pull double duty as life gain, and permanent flexibility. It'll block like a champ if we have an active Angel, or it'll cushion us until we do.
Well double posting is the tech I hear... I guess I have nothing else to do...
Tag! You're it!

emidln

05-19-2006, 09:48 AM

As far as mana accel, we can forget about it in white. With the exception of Wayfarer, we can only count on playing one land per turn. Diamond will have to suffice. Chrome Mox is so subpar that it isn't an option given the cards we'd have to pitch (ie the ones we need!)

The mana accel that we want isn't white. It's more copies of City of Traitors and, potentially, Crystal Vein.

Bane of the Living

05-19-2006, 10:48 AM

There are a good 10 pages in this forum where we tried hard to change maindeck pieces to the deck. All of these options have already been discussed pages back. Please familiarize yourself with the rest of the thread.

I think the lesson is we're wasting our time trying to change this deck.

Why would you change something that works. Machinus worked hard to come to the list we have now. Through my testing Ive found his build perfect almost down to the card. I run a 4th angel in my deck but no other significant changes.

If the deck still isnt working for you then I suggest you continue to playtest with it and become familiar with how it operates.

Lets discuss sideboard options a bit more. Did anyone see anything of interest in dissension? The Forecast mechanic seems like something I'd like to try in stax in some way.

emidln

05-19-2006, 11:11 AM

Bane of the Living

05-19-2006, 05:07 PM

Have we tried boarding into 5/3? I know Roop build a 5/3 deck that is very similar, but could a transformational sideboard work? We have 15 slots and we could already be running 4 angels MD to support the strategy.

4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Phyrexian War Beat
4 Synod Centurion
2 Juggernaut
1 Trinisphere

That would give the same creature/equipment base as 5/3 along with 4x Trinispheres. I'm not sure where 5/3s matchups are better than ours and if this would help shore up any weak matches, but it seems interesting. Thoughts?

So instead of having a precious 15 card sideboard to help against various shit, you'd rather make a transformational sideboard into a deck that doesnt have any better matchups than stax. Infact Ill go out on a limb here and say that 5/3 barely compares to angel stax as far as performance goes.

Al-ucard

05-20-2006, 05:57 AM

So instead of having a precious 15 card sideboard to help against various shit, you'd rather make a transformational sideboard into a deck that doesnt have any better matchups than stax. Infact Ill go out on a limb here and say that 5/3 barely compares to angel stax as far as performance goes.

I love 5/3 , but I have to agree with you, in side we need cards like Hanna's custody, tidavar's crusade or others... A transformational side is not the best idea because opponent will put anti artifact cards and we need something to protect this...

Another thing is that maybe you could reconsider kismet, I think is a good addition in this deck...

Oh, and I think we need Disenchants, yesterday I could see that destroy your @3 Stax in opponent's EOT when him/her is without perms its quite good!

stompy

05-22-2006, 07:16 PM

Quick post:
I have decided to take out Rishadan Port. I have replaced it with Blinkmoth Nexus. I know Mishras Factory is bigger, but the evasion is nice. I found I wasn't using the Port as much due to Tangle Wire, so I did it. (Machinus, you were right on with the Wires)

As for the 4th angel, I instead put in Pristine Angel (because I don't have the 4th Exalted).
My current list is;

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Plains
1 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Blinkmoth Nexus

4 Suppression Field
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestacks
4 Wrath of God
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Seal of Cleansing
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Exalted Angel
1 Pristine Angel

SB
2 Ghostly Prison
2 RoP Black
2 RoP Red
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Disenchant

I read back and Bane you actually had Juggernauts in your early build! But I do see the set back as it is now. Transformational is not the way this deck wants to win.
Oh yeah, how many of you have found CotV for 2, Trinisphere, and CotV for 3 makes your opponents concede? I think its rather funny.
SB; I don't know, but I wonder if we need like a Skullcage, or Ebony Owl type effect in it? I know Black Vise is banned so how about if we make the players play into a CotV to keep their hand sizes down, really limit their resources? Or face the pain of keeping cards in their hands? I dunno. Seems like we have a Potential DTB, but we lack a certain "I'm gonna win" plan.
Thoughts?

lolosoon

05-22-2006, 07:40 PM

Rishadan Ports out, good. They're not that good with Supp.Fields around.

Blinkmoth Nexus ?! Your mana denial is essential to set up correctly, so with Ports out, (and Ghost Quarters being not that disruptive early game) I'll prefer add 2x Wasteland and 1x City of Traitor.

And if you don't have the 4th City, run the subpar one : Cristal Vein. Acceleration is good and 8 double-mana lands are requested imho.

Err... with your 4x Supp.Fields MD aren't the Seals of Cleansing a bit subpar too ?!

I know that Seals are saccable to Stack but paying 1W then 2 just to have an disenchant effect seems bad.

How are the seals working for you ?! Why not switch MD Seals with SB Disenchants ?! In game 2+ if you side out the fields, you could switch back the Seals in.

And about a 4th win condition, why Pristine Angel ?! Because it fits the "Angel" thema of the deck ?!

Put Karn in, or Masticore (even if it generates card disadvantage) if you could hand over them. Hell, if you're fond with this Angel thema, run Platinum Angel !

But they're all worst win condition compared to the Exalted one, and this beauty can be unmorphed and attacks turn 2 !

Oh, and if you can afford it (which I doubt 'cause you don't have the last E.Angel), try -1 Wrath +1 Moat. Moat is great, it is a permanent answer and saccable to stack (if that matter).

Anarky87

05-22-2006, 08:17 PM

Bane of the Living

05-22-2006, 08:23 PM

I couldnt afford the Exalteds at the time. Juggernaut served as a simple beater to win the game with once I got complete lock.

Why are people trying to take Port out of this deck? Its one of the best cards in there. With Ghostly Prison you can keep an attacker off your back. You can tap down a land that your opponent didnt tap with Tangle Wire. Most importantly you can keep them under 3 mana with Trinisphere out. This card is gold in the deck, its probably more crucial to us than gobs.

stompy

05-22-2006, 08:50 PM

Anarky87

05-22-2006, 09:24 PM

Okay, so people, you guys sure are quick to blast any ideas rather than add. FYI.

We aren't here to shoot each other down are we? How about we form a cohesive group, entertain ideas, test, and create a DTB? I mean really?! Yes, Machinus (et al (if there are others)), made a fantastic deck, but that doesn't mean that the meta has NOT changed... I mean read the primer people! By the 3rd primer his deck underwent MAJOR changes. So what is to say that the current meta isn't requiring that same kind of attention?
Frustrating! I hope this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, but then again I hope it makes us stronger and more commited to make this a viable deck in the current meta. /end rant. :confused:

4th Angel, yeah I don't have one. Pristine I got, no Karn, Masticore, hmmm.... I got some of those. Interesting idea.

Ports, it was based on what little testing I have done. And in that, I found that Field was not letting me activate as much as I would have liked. The same goes for the Nexus I guess. Since I am only running 2 Prisons (my other 2 are in my buddies WW deck) I haven't seen the necessity to run the Ports for denial.

Seal... well yeah, Field makes it more of a nuisance. However, it forces the opponent to either hold back an artifact or wait, and if they wait they get the denial from CotV or 3Sphere. We are in control with it out. If I set my CotV at 2 then my Disenchant is dead in my hand. Masticore would make that better, but then why not run Ray of Revelation and use it for flashback? I mean we got the Moxen in there and it would not be such a stretch. That is a better option then just holding on to cards that cant do anything until you remove the CotV@2.

Again, please guys don't freak out on me here. We have got to work together to make it better. There are people that used to post here until they got tired of being shut down with their ideas. Ideas are just that, ideas to make it better. If you don't like it, then of course you don't have to change a thing.

I don't think I really shot anyone's ideas down, nor do I think Bane did. We simply stated what has been working for us with the deck. I'm running the full suite of Prisons, so Port is very crucial to me in keeping them off mana to attack with more than one creature. It also keeps them under 3sphere, like Bane said. If you're cutting Prisons and other what not out, I don't know what could effectively take it's place and still keep the deck on its beat. From the testing I've done, I don't think the deck really needs a massive overhaul. The only thing I've done is take a Diamond out for another Angel, and switched a few cards in the SB, but other than that, the deck remains the same.

What problems are you having with decks, and forgive me if you already stated this as I haven't gone back through all the pages recently. I've had some tricky games, but none that I felt were unwinnable. So maybe we should address what problems people are facing with the deck right now, before we start pulling things out if they don't need to be.

Bane of the Living

05-22-2006, 10:00 PM

BlindMage

05-22-2006, 11:27 PM

What's the reasoning for Temporal Aperture over something like Urza's Blueprints?

Rastadon

05-22-2006, 11:40 PM

You get to play it for free with Temporal.

Machinus

05-23-2006, 01:00 AM

Yes, Machinus (et al (if there are others)), made a fantastic deck, but that doesn't mean that the meta has NOT changed... ?

There isn't anyone else.

I mean read the primer people! By the 3rd primer his deck underwent MAJOR changes. So what is to say that the current meta isn't requiring that same kind of attention?

I designed the deck for the most competitive environments. This means decks with 6-8 fetchlands, low mana curves, and efficient disruption. Legacy was not a cohesive format when I first built the deck, and it still isn't, but after the GPs I had a lot more information to work with. The decks that were at the top of the format, and still are at the top of the format, rely on the exact sets of cards that I have targetted with this deck.

Legacy has not changed very much since the latest construction. Legacy may never achieve enough coherence to really say objectively what constitutes the metagame; until more large tournaments occur, it is quite impossible to assert anything about it.

It is possible to modify this deck slightly without changing the deck's strategy; for example, adding a Moat, the fourth Angel, or playing with the number of white sources. However, this deck cannot sustain significant maindeck changes because of the need for 2-drops and strong removal. The available relevant Stax card pool drops off sharply after you consider the cards I have discussed for this deck. I don't know if Legacy Stax can ever achieve better topdecks while maintaining the necessary amount of mana disruption and creature removal.

BlindMage

05-23-2006, 12:56 PM

You get to play it for free with Temporal.

Not if you have 3sphere out.

Bane of the Living

05-23-2006, 01:51 PM

Im pretty sure you still get to play it for free since the activation was made through 3spheres static effect. Does 3sphere work that way with Isochron Scepter as well then? I assumed it didnt. But then again I forget crap like that all the time.

In the early game Apature is still ok to have since it taps down to Tangle Wire. I know it doesnt sound like much but Field couldnt do that and it mattered alot when I wanted to play more lock pieces with my mana.

It can also be cast turn one with Ancient Tomb.

michael_noah

05-23-2006, 02:21 PM

3sphere does work that way. After every other possible thing happens, you check to see whether or not you payed at least 3 mana to play a spell. If not, you pay colorless up until you pay three. Scepter, Force of Will, and the like are all affetected by 3sphere. I think the only things that aren't affected are Storm and other things that are put directly on the stack without being played.

lolosoon

05-23-2006, 05:30 PM

So, if you TD a Temporal Apature with lock parts in play, you have to pay 5 +2 mana (Supp. Fields) to activate it then 3 mana to meet the 3sphere requirement... . ...great. :(

Well, maybe in some builds it could do well as it was doing well in some old Urza's cycle Wildfire deck. Or maybe not.

Could Bottled Cloister/Grafted Skullcap be included MD ? So we could switch Ghostly Prisons for Ensnaring Bridges...

Damn, it still looks like crap... :(

Machinus

05-23-2006, 09:25 PM

Could Bottled Cloister/Grafted Skullcap be included MD ? So we could switch Ghostly Prisons for Ensnaring Bridges...

Ensnaring Bridge isn't a bad card. The problem is that it in Legacy, it is useless unless you have exactly 0 cards in your hand. Piledriver and Lackey both come under a bridge for 1, and Threshold can try to keep it's guys small (or pump them before damage). The hardest threats for Stax to deal with are not large creatures, but lots of small ones, and Bridge is worst at dealing with those.

Remember, an important principle of Stax is the cards must be strong by themselves. Adding combos to a deck without draw spells is a very stupid plan if the cards don't work by themselves. That was one of the biggest problems with FV.

Al-ucard

05-24-2006, 06:25 AM

I have two options:

Horn of greed: With the pile of lands we have it seems a good drawing engine, and wasteland-quarter-crucible is insane.

Bottled Cloister: With this, we draw and avoid hand disruption in form of Hymn to tourach and another cards deadguy have...

BoardinCharlie

05-24-2006, 10:33 AM

Has anyone tried this match up against Deadguy Ale... if so what do you think about it.. favorable. I find that with this deck is gaining in popularity and have started dedicating sideboard slots to it in my board.

Al-ucard

05-24-2006, 11:45 AM

Bane of the Living

05-24-2006, 04:39 PM

As expected it depends if your running 3 or 4 Crucibles in the deck. Wastelock is actually pretty good against them, and Crucible protects your from their LD plan.

Really the only problem with the matchup is you might want to play your Exalteds before you would normally feel safe doing so. Its terrible to lose her to Hymn and theres no good way around that. Id consider Bottled Cloister but when they bring in Disenchants they'll Mind Twist you with them.

Chalice for 3 is assinine, you dont really do that do you? Vindicate is bad sure, but not bad enough to destroy our own spells with CotV.

Al-ucard

05-25-2006, 03:17 AM

Chalice for 3 is assinine, you dont really do that do you? Vindicate is bad sure, but not bad enough to destroy our own spells with CotV.

That's true! I completely forget our mana curve! But always we can sac our Chalice for 3 with Stax ;-)

Machinus

05-31-2006, 04:43 AM

Al-ucard

05-31-2006, 12:27 PM

The biggest complaint I have heard about this deck is the slowness of the win condition. If you find this is causing you trouble, then try adding Angel #4, and cutting the Rishadan Ports and adding Mishra's Factories instead. The Factories are superb blockers in the early game, and can help you finish off the opponent in locked up games.

Yes, in my initial build I play without ports and with the pack of Factories, but It seems that factories are more useful than ports, because they chump block initial attacks and after you clean the board or control it you can kill fast. But since Ports really help the deck concept, I don't want to quit them all, so I'm trying with this mana base:

7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
3 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory

Maybe are to few plains, but for now I don't have much problems with this configuration...

Oh! and I think that adding a pair of Eternal Dragon the deck will gain a lot...
They improve drawings, they return and they are big!

Citrus-God

06-01-2006, 03:37 AM

Ports + The Crucible/Waste lock means they cant attack you with Ghostly Prison in play, and yet maintain a constant land drop. Also Ports can cut off tempo and set your opponent off color.

Al-ucard

06-01-2006, 05:48 AM

Ports + The Crucible/Waste lock means they cant attack you with Ghostly Prison in play, and yet maintain a constant land drop. Also Ports can cut off tempo and set your opponent off color.
Yes, this is the only reason I don't quit them all.

Anarky87

06-01-2006, 12:03 PM

Yes, in my initial build I play without ports and with the pack of Factories, but It seems that factories are more useful than ports, because they chump block initial attacks and after you clean the board or control it you can kill fast. But since Ports really help the deck concept, I don't want to quit them all, so I'm trying with this mana base:

7 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
3 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory

Maybe are to few plains, but for now I don't have much problems with this configuration...

Oh! and I think that adding a pair of Eternal Dragon the deck will gain a lot...
They improve drawings, they return and they are big!

They're great if you're not still playing Suppression Field. Then they become 4 to cycle, 7 to return to your hand, and 7 to play. Doesn't sound like that great a deal to me (if you're still running SF). I would go with Machinus's suggestion of adding the 4th Angel and the suite of Factories.

Bane of the Living

06-01-2006, 04:15 PM

They're great if you're not still playing Suppression Field. Then they become 4 to cycle, 7 to return to your hand, and 7 to play. Doesn't sound like that great a deal to me (if you're still running SF). I would go with Machinus's suggestion of adding the 4th Angel and the suite of Factories.

Ive been running the 4th Angel for a while now, the card I cut from Machinus' build was one Ghostly Prison. Im running 2 City of Traitors and I think 10 plains because I hate to see more than one City of Traitors per game.

Through all my playtesting I think I can say this is my favorite control deck in the format and possibly the best. Its got amazing game against aggro and even crushes combo thanks to gg plays like CotV or 3Sphere.

Here is my new SB'..
3 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law
1 Trinisphere (4th)
1 Crucible (4th)
3 Disenchant
3 Mishras Factory
2 Suppression Field

Hannas against Green or White decks for their Disenchants, sometimes against red. Sphere against goblins, which usually puts the last nail in their coffin. My 4th Crucible comes in against control and black attrition decks along with 3 Mishras Factories, those help against zoo as well.

My newest maindeck....

4 Rishadin Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
10 Snow Covered Plains
4 Mox Diamond

4 Exalted Angel
2 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Temporal Apature
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

dontbiteitholmes

06-01-2006, 10:23 PM

Honestly the only problems I ever have with the deck even in tournament play is its ability to suck at top decking. When you reach no cards in hand there are those games where you'll top deck this..

City of Traitors
Plains
Mox Diamond
2nd Crucible of the Worlds
Ghostly Prison

That happens often, if that was part of my opening hand Id be all about it. But when Im going into late game I need to get the business spells like Smokestack or WoG. The deck is in desparate need of card draw, Ive been testing 2 Temporal Apatures in the deck in the place of 2 Suppression Fields. Theyre working quite well so far but I havent taken them to a tourny yet. Ill keep you guys posted.
This deck has one of the worst topdeck modes ever. It seems to be a pretty bad deck as far as large events are concerned just on the fact that eventually you will draw yourself into a serious corner and also a win can take a retarded amount of time even when you basically lock the game down in the first 4 turns. Then theres the whole thing about REALLY needing to go first against certain decks, especially with certain hands. Seriously dropping a Chalice for 1 vs. Goblins loses a lot when they play a first turn Vial or Lackey, would probobaly be better if you could go turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Trini on the play.

BlindMage

06-01-2006, 10:52 PM

I only recently started playing this, but so far my main problem hasn't been going to time, or even topdecks after I gain control. I have to actualy have to swing through with an angel for the win; my opponent either scoops when I lock them, or if not then, then once they see an angel. My main problem is that we have a weak ability to recover a game where we either got a weak start, or one where the opponent puts us off balance early on. Temporal Aperature doesn't seem to help this problem. Also, I feel the need to point out that Mishra's Factory has terrible synergy with SF. So does port, but I'm jus' sayin'.

Citrus-God

06-02-2006, 12:13 AM

// Mana 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
8 Plains

// Creatures 5
2 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Exalted Angel

// Spells 30
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
4 Wrath of God
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard 15
4 Powder Keg
3 Defense Grid
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law
4 Disenchant

Solemn Simulacrum is my favorite new card I tested at the moment. Because of him, I lowered my Plains count bu two, letting me run Tabernacle, and you really dont need 27 Sources. 26 seems like the right place to start. I highly recommend that everybody test Solemn Simulacrum.
Also Powder Kegs in the Sb solve a lot of problems. It's a suggestion I got from Tao on MWS. We both concluded that if your opponent is on the play, he will most likely play a Needle for Wasteland. If Wasteland is an important card in this match up, I will say your screwed. Then comes Meddling Mage. That card protects creatures, and then they overwhelm us. Using Powder Keg can help in some way, as they also kill Goose', Bears, and the primary reason I added this in here, Meddling Mage.

Bane of the Living

06-02-2006, 02:51 PM

This deck has one of the worst topdeck modes ever. It seems to be a pretty bad deck as far as large events are concerned just on the fact that eventually you will draw yourself into a serious corner and also a win can take a retarded amount of time even when you basically lock the game down in the first 4 turns. Then theres the whole thing about REALLY needing to go first against certain decks, especially with certain hands. Seriously dropping a Chalice for 1 vs. Goblins loses a lot when they play a first turn Vial or Lackey, would probobaly be better if you could go turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Trini on the play.

I usually dont lose because of the early game unless I kept a hand I shouldnt have. The early game is where your broken lock pieces and fast mana take advantage of your opponent. Even when your opponent is on the draw and they play a Vial you still have Chalice to stop the other 11 1cc spells in their deck, Suppression Field to make Vial not so broken, and Ghostly Prison/WoG to stop the hordes. The only games I lose with Angel Stax are when I go to late game, lose my Tangle Wires, and see no Smokestack or Crucibles. Apature does help with that late game consistancy. Try it out, dont be to quick to dismiss it.

Myrrodin

06-07-2006, 03:56 PM

@Bane: Just out of curiosity (I looked and did not see this mentioned), but wouldn't Sensei's Divining Top be better than Temporal Apature? Granted, it sucks with suppression field, but it helps you dig up and topdeck better, as well as being a useful mana sink in the early game when you have nothing else to do with it. Again though, it might require some fetch lands, which, again, suck with suppression field. I just felt like throwing it out there in case you just passed by it or something.

emidln

06-07-2006, 04:31 PM

Myrrodin

06-07-2006, 08:51 PM

SDT fails the general rule of blowing under Chalice @ 1. In addition, it sucks with Suppression Field. In fact, with no way to shuffle the deck, SDT seems like it's really bad here.

*hits self in face* Yeah, sorry I forgot about chalice for 1. However, I already mentioned suppression field in my post and further added the idea of adding a few fetches.

Citrus-God

06-20-2006, 01:04 AM

Bane of the Living

06-21-2006, 05:13 PM

Just to revive this thread, has anyone else tested more random Artifact-Based Draw engine, like Temporal Aperture? If so, how was it doing.

Recently, I cut cut Suppression Field from the list to increase the "Time Walk" synergy by using Sphere of Resistance.

I mean...

T1: Tomb, Chalice @1
T2: Land Drop, play 3Sphere or 2Sphere or Waste if it's the Land Drop.
T3: Land Drop, 2Sphere/Wasteland/Tangle Wire.

Just keep going like that...

I mean, I believe that the Time Walk goodness this deck provides is savage...

I also sort of hate myself for going back to old lists...

// Mana 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancinet Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
8 Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures 4
3 Exalted Angel
1 Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells 31
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Temporal Aperture

// Sideboard 15
4 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
3 Defense Grid
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Why run the single Tabernacle in the board? Do you even find it? And why Defense Grid? I feel the best way to go against control is drop a lock piece every turn, if they counter things like Tangle Wire then you get things like Chalice to resolve. Bait with your mediocre lock parts first, always play around daze, your opponent will never be able to counter something every turn.

Im still not decided on the Apature, its quite bad in the early game.

Anusien

06-21-2006, 05:44 PM

Temporal Aperture is only good when you have enough mana to cast Sundering Titan. Noooo thank you.

bigredmeanie

06-21-2006, 05:46 PM

Why do they need to counter Tangle Wire? The smart control player lets Tangle resolve.

Though always playing around Daze is the smart thing to do.

Bane of the Living

06-21-2006, 06:12 PM

Anusien

06-21-2006, 08:24 PM

Most control players dont have anything but lands for perms, Tangle Wire will tap them out so you can play other lock pieces. I always have more perms to tap including the Tangle Wire itself and stacking the upkeep effects correctly. Then you play another land and usually have the mana to drop a bomb against a tapped out control player.
This is part of the Stax analysis from my FVSS. You're playing it right, but that assumes the control player is playing it right too. bigreadmeanie: You're right, the control player should let Tangle Wire resolve. Most of the time they should also let Trinisphere and Defense Grid resolve as well; just so long as they have enough mana to counter Smokestack. For the most part, the control deck should just save its counters for stuff that actually affects the number of lands it has in play; Tangle Wire just makes this somewhat difficult. But if your opponent will counter a Tangle Wire, you can easily testspell them into oblivion.

Machinus

06-21-2006, 09:17 PM

It's not hard to see that Tangle Wire is good against control decks... I don't think anyone can take credit for that observation.

If your other lock components resolve, it will make it much harder for control to stop a Smokestack or an Exalted Angel. Eventually Stax will gain enough board control to resolve whatever they want.

Tangle Wire, Chalice at 2, Suppression Field, Rishadan Port, and Crucible of Worlds/Wasteland make it difficult for permission to stop Stax's game plan. Defense Grid and Hannah's Custody in the sideboard add even more pressure.

Bane of the Living

06-21-2006, 09:22 PM

I dont really feel Defense Grid is needed in the sideboard, I run Disenchant instead. Does anyone else feel that way?

Machinus

06-21-2006, 09:25 PM

I have both in my sideboard, but it really depends on your environment. I run Grid because it comes down on turn one, which means I can begin to lock up the board right away against decks with permission - blue control, blue/x aggro-control, and blue combo.

Parcher

06-22-2006, 11:28 AM

I think Anusien summed it up well. We play similar decks, and have tested against Stax thoroughly due to the inherent problems control has with it. There are only two must counter/remove spells: Crucible of Worlds, and Smokestack. Everything else is only to facilitate the Stax player keeping these on the board. No control deck has the resources to keep up with this, especially when further hampered by the Tangle/Sphere elements. On the other hand, if neither of those cards resolve, or do not remain long enough to do the needed damage, the other lock pieces are an annoyance at most. Grid, both Spheres, Tangle Wire all can be irrelevant if the Stax player can't capitalize on the time they give to either completly lock the game, or somehow both play and protect their few win conditions.

Machinus

06-22-2006, 03:08 PM

Grid, both Spheres, Tangle Wire all can be irrelevant if the Stax player can't capitalize on the time they give to either completly lock the game, or somehow both play and protect their few win conditions.

A ramping Stack will win the game. A resolved Crucible will generate a very big advantage. Chalice at 1 and Exalted Angel will win the game (Feel free to cast your own Wrath of God!). Mishra's Factory can do some heavy damage, even just by trading land for removal. This is where knowledge of the matchups becomes important. If you pay attention to your mulligans and order your spells properly, eventually you can create a window to resolve what you need to. Control can't maintain enough open mana to stop all of Stax's threats.

Anusien

06-22-2006, 04:20 PM

It's worth noting that Chalice @ 1 and Trinisphere both become hard lock components (linking to a post I made on TMD that explains) (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25304.0) against Threshold, since they physically interfere with that deck's ability to play spells. I think that against control decks that play board sweepers (Tog's Deeds, Landstill's Disk) Disenchant becomes more important than Defense Grid. I've never been terribly afraid of their ability to counter my stuff (if I was, I'd run Abeyance instead of Defense Grid), but board sweepers can absolutely wreck you. I said Abeyance instead of Defense Grid (or REB if you're on-color). Abeyance cantrips, but more importantly, it lets you counter now. Defense Grid is only good turns 1-3, but after that the control player has enough mana to counter if they absolutely need to, and I have seen several Angel Stax players screwed by their own Defense Grid on Disenchant.

Parcher

06-22-2006, 05:04 PM

I did definitively state that both Stack and Crucible are tremendous obstacles for control. Any mana dependant deck with few permanents would have equal trouble versus this deck, so I guess there is no contention there. Chalice@1 does absolutely nothing though. Threshold, with possibly the Hatfield's version excepted, is not a control deck. Control decks actually use Chalice against Threshold. XAngel is an automatic finisher against any deck that can't remove it. This is also acedemic, as if Stax is performing well, Squire would work as a win condition. All viable control decks are now board control, so dealing with a Mishra's Factory,(i.e a 2/2, or 3/3 immune to sorcery speed) is a prerequisite to even attempting to play the deck. There is no way a control deck can stop all of Stax's threats, this is true. But if they keep the two previously referred to cards off the table, with the slow clock of Stax, they have plenty of time to forward their own plan, or find answers to Stax's.

Machinus

06-23-2006, 05:31 AM

XAngel is an automatic finisher against any deck that can't remove it. This is also acedemic, as if Stax is performing well, Squire would work as a win condition.

You are missing the point. Stax doesn't need anthing besides Angel in play to win. If control can't come up with an answer in time (either because of mana disruption, chalice, etc.) then Stax doesn't even have to cast any other spells.

emidln

06-23-2006, 10:20 AM

Windborn Muse... maybe. I may consider that card if I need more Prisons, but from what I've learned from my White Gro playing friend; you dont need that many win conditions when your in top 8, since theres no time limit.

Now heres a story. I locked him with an Uba Mask, 4 Ports, a Crucible, a Smokestack at 1, and a couple Prisons. Guess how I won? I decked him out!

Seriously, running More prisons whold be nice...

Uba Mask has been decent in testing, but it wasnt really needed. Your better off with Machinus's SB...

Umm, that only works sometimes. You need to make sure that you actually have more cards in library for the Uba/Smokestack trick to work. Uba Mask only seems good if the rest of your deck can abuse it.

I'll be taking Stax to the Legacy championships.

Parcher

06-23-2006, 02:55 PM

You are missing the point. Stax doesn't need anthing besides Angel in play to win. If control can't come up with an answer in time (either because of mana disruption, chalice, etc.) then Stax doesn't even have to cast any other spells.

No, I am actually in total agreement. The onus of answering threats is always on the control deck. I just don't think it often plays out as simply as you are stating it. Angel by itself is easily answered. It is Stax's prison elements that make it difficult for a control deck to play it's game.

Machinus

06-23-2006, 07:19 PM

No, I am actually in total agreement. The onus of answering threats is always on the control deck. I just don't think it often plays out as simply as you are stating it. Angel by itself is easily answered. It is Stax's prison elements that make it difficult for a control deck to play it's game.

You say that you can use any win condition after Stax has created a lock. That is indeed missing the point. You do not need any lock to win with Angel. You can morph her early and protect her with Chalice 1 and just win the game.

If the control deck even gets an opportunity to answer the Angel later in the game, it will have to make itself vulnerable for a short time while it resolves a more expensive answer. As I wrote in my original article, Angel itself is a prison element; control must devote mana and time to get rid of it (and it has other strengths against aggro). Chalice makes this a favorable exchange for the Stax player.

Citrus-God

06-24-2006, 03:56 AM

It's true... but with so much mana denial, it wil be hard to find the proper answers to get rid of things. Thus, we beat them to a bloody pulp with Angel, backed up with lock compenents making it a 4/5 Flying Troll Ascetic.

I mean, Chalice + Angel = gg versus most decks that run Swords.

I mean, your the friggin beatdown! Lock components makes your opponent's head spin. He wont be able to live long.

Parcher

06-24-2006, 05:49 PM

You say that you can use any win condition after Stax has created a lock. That is indeed missing the point. You do not need any lock to win with Angel. You can morph her early and protect her with Chalice 1 and just win the game.

If the control deck even gets an opportunity to answer the Angel later in the game, it will have to make itself vulnerable for a short time while it resolves a more expensive answer. As I wrote in my original article, Angel itself is a prison element; control must devote mana and time to get rid of it (and it has other strengths against aggro). Chalice makes this a favorable exchange for the Stax player.

I'm sorry, I think you must be thinking of some old-school U/W Landstill varient when I refer to a control deck. The board control decks played currently can easily deal with an Angel+Chalice. Rifter has Wrath and Wing Shards. Aunusien's deck has Confinement, and Astral Slide plus a plethora of it's own creatures, and Nassif's deck has an easy third-fourth turn Confinement lock with countermagic backup. All of these easily get around Chalice, and all are online by turn four. So even a magic 1st turn Chalice+third turn morphed Angel can be easily dealt with because you will not be actually stopping the control deck with the resource denial that hurts it the most. All of the three decks can take the Aggro role, Rifter's albiet with direct damage, so going for lock pieces only will probably not work either. Establishing the resource destroying/slowing elements, then going aggressive is how I've often seen this deck beat control. Badly.This is all being on the other side of course, but I have learned a lot more this way as I had to figure out how not to lose against Stax before I started beating it.

Machinus

06-24-2006, 11:31 PM

An early Angel is a huge threat. If the control deck doesn't deal with it, it loses. If it does deal with it, it has to tap itself out and then Stax can resolve whatever it wants. That is better than the effects of any of the other lock components. If you have played this matchup as you say you have, you know that control does not dictate the tempo of the game on turns 1-4, so it does not really matter what control "can" do by then.

My point is still correct. Angel + Chalice is a big threat that control must hurry to answer. If they can do so in time, Stax gains a big opportunity to increase pressure on control's manabase. If control decks begin to run cheap artifact hate, the early game in this matchup may change, but until then any early pressure, including Angel/Chalice, is a big problem for control.

Citrus-God

06-25-2006, 01:37 AM

Smokestack forces them to kill off the lftl engine, and they deck out. Suppression Field makes things harder for them to cycle and look for answers, because Solitary Confinement is a bitch.

Now Rifter... they have cycling as their main engine to find answers... sads to say, WoG wouldnt even resolve, as Ports, Wastelands, and Suppression Field ruins their day.

BlindMage

06-25-2006, 01:42 AM

Rifter doesn't usually run WoG. In my experiance, Rifter has a very hard time against Stax, since the only spell they have that really hurts you is Akroma's Vengance, which some builds have started dropping. Outside of that, the worst they can do is cycle decree for tokens so they can play more lands under Stax, and all this is only if they manage to get enough mana for this stuff in the first place.

Machinus

06-25-2006, 02:23 AM

Machinus

06-25-2006, 02:23 AM

Bane of the Living

06-25-2006, 01:48 PM

Rifter loses because it's saturated with expensive removal (not so good against Stax) and has minimal disruption. Almost half of it's lands are nonbasic, so Stax has a very easy time of creating a lock and disrupting the manabase of Rifter. Field is just icing on the cake.

Rifter normally doesnt play their cycling lands, and only plays 1-2 duals for Eternal Dragon to fetch up. But Field is a house against them as is the deck itself. Rifter is a bye.

Citrus-God

06-25-2006, 04:11 PM

emm... yeah... it really is. Because they draw lands like crazy, they'll just keep playing a land per turn until they cant, Suppression Field wont make them play any at all...

Parcher

06-26-2006, 01:15 PM

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Stax has a greatly favored matchup over most control decks. Period. Quote me.

Having gotten this out of the way, all I have been referring to was that the scenarios that Machinus presents are all given under optimum conditions for the Stax player. Not that thay wouldn't like to, but no control deck sets the tempo the first few turns, I don't see the point there. What they "do" then is try to survive, and sculpt their hand, and board to swing "control" back toward their side as the game progresses.The biggest problem Stax has, is also it's largest disparity from a control deck. That being card advantage and selection. While it can have hands that a control deck has extreme difficulty in overcoming, it can also go into topdeck mode with nothing important resolved. Control decks are specifially designed to avoid this problem. Almost every resolved bomb in Stax is another nail in the coffin for a control deck. But even something as simple as drawing three lands off the top can lose every bit of advantage that may have been previously established. The consistancy issue is the only reason that I would never scoop to this deck.

Oh, and I meant to add Humility to Rifter. It dosen't matter, as it still loses, but just for completeness.

Machinus

06-26-2006, 05:02 PM

You're talking about the topdeck problem, which has been discussed for months without any solution. The best way to minimize it is to build your deck with the most consistent cards, mulligan aggressively, and cast your spells in the right order. This is sufficient against most of the top decks in legacy (discard being one of the tougher matchups).

RoyalAssassin

06-30-2006, 06:08 PM

Bane of the Living

06-30-2006, 06:16 PM

Hi guys, i'm trying a little with this Deck and it's really funny! I want to ask you a thing...how do you threat the Burn Decks? I mean...the Sphere of Law are too slow for that types of deck and i notice that 2x in SB aren't enough to have a real incidence in the board...i would suggest a small change in the SB of the deck like -2 Sphere of law -1 trinisphere, +3 Circle of protection from red...the COP are really one of the quickest response to this kind of decks..and they help also against the other red decks...what do you think about?...

thanks RoyalAssassin

COP sucks against any tried and true burn deck because they run Pithing Needles in the board. Sphere is good but I find comfort in 3 Pulse of the Fields. My hand is always low since stax goes into top deck, its great. Stax has a good game against burn anyways because Smokestack eats their only perms (lands), Chalice of the Voids in multiples win the game, Trinisphere is also amazing. Hardcasted Exalted should also win the game if you see her in time.

Machinus

06-30-2006, 07:33 PM

Chalice should be enough. If you need more, play Sphere.

Al-ucard

07-01-2006, 04:45 AM

What about add 4 Enlightened Tutor in side to improve the top deck mode against certain decks?

An example: Yesterday I lose against a Survival deck with a vial and a lot of creatures, but only 1 land. If I have 4 tutor and 4 Suppresion or Prison. I find it much more fast than without it...

RoyalAssassin

07-01-2006, 05:11 AM

Sphere is good but I find comfort in 3 Pulse of the Fields. .

How can you handle another spell with WW in casting cost? i mean...with 8 plains and 4 Diamond i have sometime problems also with WoG or an exalted to be morphed...and that 3 spot don't go replacing those i think....or i'm wrong?

About CoP ok....i understand the pithing problem.....the one against i tryied haven't it but was really quick and overhelmed me.....maybe i made some mistake if all of you are so sure that Burn is a viable matchup...

Citrus-God

07-01-2006, 02:46 PM

If you know... for me, I have never had any mana screw problems, because whenever I dont use City of Traitors, I discard it to Mox Diamond. Always.

Besides, I have been testing Pulse of the Fields too, because my Goblin match-up is still sorta bad now... They will side in Tranquil Domain just to takeout your Suppression Fields, Ghostly Prisons, and Sphere of Laws. Besides, Pulse of the Fields and Sphere of Law synergizes. So yeah... run both.

Bane of the Living

07-03-2006, 04:36 PM

I actually run 9 Plains in my build as well as the 4th angel. I dont know what I changed from Machinus's build, I think -1 City, -1 Suppression Field.

dontbiteitholmes

07-03-2006, 08:56 PM

This deck seems fairly shaky against both Pikula and Goblins when going 2nd. Is that the general consensus everyone else is getting?

Citrus-God

07-05-2006, 12:31 AM

I actually run 9 Plains in my build as well as the 4th angel. I dont know what I changed from Machinus's build, I think -1 City, -1 Suppression Field.

My changes of Machinus's current build is, -1 City of Traitors, -1 Suppression Field, for 3 Powder Keg which also includes the 61st card.

Bane of the Living

07-05-2006, 06:33 PM

This deck seems fairly shaky against both Pikula and Goblins when going 2nd. Is that the general consensus everyone else is getting?

Deadguy is rarely a problem on turn one because their only 'bomb' is Dark Ritual. That coupled with discard actually. Going into this match remember to keep a strong mana hand, preferably including a Crucible because it makes a world of difference in the match. Infact if Deadguy is big in your meta consider running the 4th one in your maindeck. Chalice goes along way in this matchup as well but I dont have enough experience against the deck to say if it would be more crucial at 1 or 2 counters. Depends if they play Swords to Plowshares.

Goblins can be more of a problem with their Lackey and Vial. Ive done very well on the draw when playing turn 1-2 Ghostly Prisons, turn 2-3 Wrath of God. Your deck is as strong as it can be against the hordes already.

This deck notices significant match differences when on the play or draw. It almost feels like your playing a Vintage deck and your opponent is playing a precon. Sometimes I ask myself, I say..

"Bane, does this deck ever really deserve to go first?"

No, never.

Citrus-God

07-06-2006, 02:11 AM

I find that going 2nd with this deck is the most skill intensive part of piloting this deck. A lot of people claim this deck is bad and inconsistent because they think that this deck is only good if they go 1st, and going 2nd is just a simple loss. I've played 2nd against Goblins Game 1 and still won.

Citrus-God

07-08-2006, 02:54 AM

I really need to ask everybody this...

How do people deal with Meddling Mage? Do you think we need to devote some cards in the SB to answer this guy, or do we dont really need to care.

I have played tons of games against UGw, and they tend to call Tangle Wire or Wrath of God... that just ruined my game, as I had 2 WoGs and 1 Tangle Wire in my hand...

Machinus

07-11-2006, 01:09 AM

Mage is a bitch when it comes down. The best way to deal with mage is to hope that your opponent has not tested against Stax (which is probably true).

Seriously though, this is where land disruption comes on. Depending on your board position, you will have to keep them off of green or white as long as possible. If they are able to cast mage, your strategy changes depending on what they name, and the board position. If they take wrath, you may have to become aggressive with creatures (resolving chalice 1 makes this a very good plan). Tangle is the only other good choice, but in that case I would go after their mana and wait for them to threaten with guys.

Citrus-God

07-11-2006, 02:53 AM

Yeah... I was testing against Thresh, and they played Mage and called WoG. I find it hard to be aggressive, because all I drew were Trinispheres, CoWs, and Suppression Fields. They killed me at like turn 7, with a Goose and a Bear...

Machinus, have you considered running Powder Keg in the SB just to answer Mage? It may also be an additional answer against Goblins when your on the play. I was testing this card, and it seems to do very well for me.

Machinus

07-11-2006, 04:09 AM

Well if you remember, Keg was in the maindeck for quite a long time. It would make perfect sense to me to play an older version of Stax if you think it would be stronger in your meta. Suppression Field is a card that works best when played against very competitive decks (which in Legacy means they are running around eight fetches). It is difficult to predict any 1.5 tournament environment, so I can only suggest you use your best judgment, but Keg is a fine choice.

Citrus-God

07-11-2006, 04:42 AM

It was in my SB ever since I lost to Tao's UW Angel Stompy Post-Board on MWS some time ago when he played a Mage calling WoG.
It was hard for me to be aggressive, because his turns go like;

1. Pithing Needle, calling Wasteland
2. Meddling Mage, calling WoG

It was such a hard game... I tried though, and only won 1st Game Pre-Board...

Thanks, now I can continue keeping my Kegs in the SB without looking back now.

RoyalAssassin

07-11-2006, 05:51 PM

i'm sorry to say that from my test this deck in a little more various meta not only made by tier 1 as goblin, W/B, ******** or Reset combo cannot win...it's hard to believe but your lock never is strong enough to protect you from slowly lose life by your own tombs and in the end be killed by a couple of random critters......this deck is simply too slow to put on table the lock components...the lack of mishra's workshop and T1 solomoxen it's a real pain....i think i'll stop to build this deck....i'm really sad cause was a deck i really like...but maybe the lack of manipulation or card drawing and the need to topdeck in mid-late game is too much a problem for me.. :(

Citrus-God

07-11-2006, 10:26 PM

You sir have been playing this deck wrong.

This deck can beat Goblins, Solidarity (Why in hell would you lose to this?), Bw Pikula, and Threshold.

You sir have been playing this deck wrong. Nothing in this deck is expensive cast, other than Smokestack and Wrath of God. Maybe it's because you dont tend to mulligan hands. Prison is one of those decks that still forgive you if you mull down to 5.
Also, how can critters kill you so quickly? Did you even try and lock them under a Ghostly Prison or WoG them?

Have you forgotten that Stax is a skill intensive deck? It's much harder to pilot than Uba Stax. This deck is designed to to combat a metagame where it's only forms of mana are Lands, meaning you can Time Walk like crazy and draw more cards and create more untap steps. Unlike Uba Stax in Vintage which is agressive as hell, and Moxes dont apply.

Bane of the Living

07-12-2006, 05:37 PM

The only real way out of the mage problem is resolving a Smokestack and letting it pillage your opponents board. If it resolves it wont take long before they let that mage bite the dust. Especially if they only have 2 other lands in play or something. Powder Keg in the board will help that like Anti said.

If your constantly lossing with Angel Stax in its recent build than you need to practice with it more. Figure out what a good hand is in comparisson to a bad one, and what order to play your lock pieces in. If you havent read Machinus's primer I recommend doing so.

Citrus-God

07-12-2006, 11:13 PM

Like he said, hands (like Bw Pikula) are the most hardest decisions of playing the deck.

currence

07-15-2006, 11:05 AM

Has anyone considered making all the plains Snow-Covered, and then playing either Scrying Sheets or Mouth of Ronom?

I haven't had a change to play this deck against anyone (recently moved, haven't found legacy tournaments anywhere), so I'm not sure if creatures are still a problem, but Mouth of Ronom would help in the creature department. Frankly, I can't see how crits could be a big problem, what with Tangle Wire, Wrath, Ghostly Prison, etc. (aka, the whole deck, plus Tabernacle(s) in the side).

I know in the old stax variants I've played in legacy (a year or so ago, with Grafted Skullcap,...ugh) card drawing was always a huge gap in the deck, so would using Scrying Sheets be worth it? It would help grab lands if they were snow, but then again, we wouldn't be running too many Snow-Covereds as it is.

If so, what would we take out? Land is extremely tight in this deck, and I'm sure no one wants to take out plains (and it would be stupid, because we need these to find with Scrying Sheets), but what about Ports?

Bane of the Living

07-15-2006, 03:20 PM

Thats really just a bad idea seeing as the deck only runs like 9 plains anyways. I really wouldnt want to take a great non plains land out of the deck for a card that has that little a chance to draw me a card. It also has bad synergy with Suppression Field.

Goblin Snowman

07-15-2006, 04:46 PM

I have a question: If you're running the "silver bullet" E. tutor, is it worth playing one Humility and one Moat? Humility does need to be gotton rid of, yet is slows down so many decks (including stopping "The Game") that it might be worth playing as a one of. Please tell me what you think.

Bane of the Living

07-17-2006, 05:29 PM

Humility screws up your win via Exalted Angel. Moat is ok but most decks have a way around it, even goblins can get siege out and burn you down. Oppressive lock pieces are the way to go. E tutor in my testing as well as pretty much everyones, was deemed not worthy. Setting yourself back a draw is bad in a deck with no card draw, especially when it works terrible with Chalice. If you have a chalice @ 1 counter, you should expect to draw your Enlightened Tutor, and lose the game because of it. It really does come up. The 'top of lib' tutors are also shitty when people are running around with Predicts.

Goblin Snowman

07-21-2006, 12:00 PM

I have been testing with 2 mained Humility, and they seems to be pulling they're wait. They slow the game down to a crawl, allowing you to find a Smokestack. There have been 2 games out of 12 where they harmed me. One was where I topped it when I had an Angel on board, another where I was forced to cast a 1/1 for 6 to chump (Stupid SOFI). I may keep them out, but two copies have worked for me. Also, does anyone have a though on Reverence in the SB v. Goblins, Zoo, random aggro, and possibly Deadguy? Sphere of Law is better v. Goblins and Burn, but it may be a better choice for me, since burn is nonexistant in any good form, and my meta only has a few goblins decks show. Other cards I have been testing are Ensnaring Bridge and Bottled Cloister. Together they are great, seperate not so much. I really enjoy having a draw engine, and only 2 netdecks main Artifact removal mained - Deadguy and Rifter. (Ok maybe 3 if Goblins mains Seal, Tinkerer, or Tin Street.) Ensnaring Bridge is amazing at holding aggro back, since the deck goes into topdeck mode quickly already. Please tell me what you think.

Bane of the Living

07-21-2006, 05:17 PM

I know the thread is 18 pages old but those cards were discussed somewhere back. I really dont like Humility thanks to its not being Moat. If you can shell out $100 theyre much more worth it. I played Reverance in my board for a while, its good but its clunky sometimes. If your having luck with Bridge than good for you. I could never draw both bridge and cloister for the draw engine, and when I did bridge would get destroyed or something. Rather than play reactive stax pieces I prefer to stick to the aggro lock parts. The things my opponent really doesnt want to resolve if they're playing things like combo.

I like sitting across from a combo player knowing I have 4-8 ways to win on the first two turns.

Goblin Snowman

07-22-2006, 11:55 AM

Bane, do you have an up to date list I could look at? On Bridge - I', using them in the place of Prisons. They don't make it hard to get attacked, they make it impossible. They're mad synergy with Angel makes them a neccessity to be sacked once you have a lock, otherwise you have to bask with a morph or wait 6 turns. I actully am picking up a few moats, sice they really are just that good. They'll go in Bridge's place if all goes well. Bottled Cloister has worked out for me - in 2 of 50+ games it was killed with my hand removed, and after quite a few games were done against Deadguy and any Sui esque deck they showed me how much discard they were holding. Also, I'm having large problems with Deadguy. Is there a good sideboard answer for this? Reverence helps against the 16+ Creature builds, but is there a better answer for them?

Citrus-God

07-26-2006, 05:32 AM

SuckerPunch

07-26-2006, 11:43 AM

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, but I think a more agressive, faster, more straight forward black deck would work even better....

The below list is the combined result of lolosoon and I.

//Mana
9 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wastelands
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual

//Threats
4 Priest of Gix/SOFI (Ruled Out Confidant - Explanation Below)
4 Phyrexian War Beast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Scuta
4 Synod Centurion

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

I like forgoing some of the more conditional spells for speed and aggression. It gives it better game against decks like Goblins while also speeding it up to the point where with even a single Chalice or Trinisphere, you can easily race combo.

Dark Ritual is such a huge bonus for this deck that I can't justify running White. Angels are decent but unneeded when you're running this many high powered creatures already.

This deck did very well in testing. I beat a bunch of random decks on MWS.

Chalice + Trinisphere + Wastelands own.

I recommend that you try out this build.

The reason I made the choices I made.

You need 13 black sources minimum. That's why I run 9 Swamp and 4 Diamond.

Gix may seem random but it's there because it speeds you up one full turn which is great versus combo. Gix lets you have a three turn clock when you cast it off a first turn ritual with negator. Or when you cast it along with Trinisphere, by the time they can recover Sphere, it already deals 8 damage or so. It lets you race fast combo, and that's insane.

But if you don't face much combo, I would run SOFI over it as it's overall a better card.

Confidant is nice since it draws cards but with the tombs and the high cc cards, it's too much life loss. Besides this is a fast aggressive deck. And it had bad synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere.

Negator may scare some people, but you can't argue with it's clock. I usually cast it later on, when I can afford to sac away my lands if they burn it or something. By that point, just one or two attacks from Negator seals the game. When I'm playing combo, Negator is always a turn one play.

dre4m

07-26-2006, 12:11 PM

This isn't a Stax deck, per se. It isn't even really a prison deck, so I don't think it belongs in this thread. That being said, it seems like you would be in serious trouble against faster aggro or Threshold if you don't have a turn one or two Trinisphere, and you're not running any of Stax' traditional control methods for aggro (Ghostly Prison, Suppression Field, Wrath of God, etc..) so you will fold to better creature decks (especially Thresh) extremely quickly.

SuckerPunch

07-26-2006, 12:17 PM

It plays a lot prison cards, which is why I brought it up here. Seeing as how discussion on all other similar decks have died out, I felt it most appropriate here.

Actually, of the games I've played, aggro is by and far a very easy matchup.

All of your threats are 3/4s, 4/4s and 5/5s. And you can consistently get atleast one of them out turn one (either mox diamond or dark ritual) or at the very latest turn 2. You honestly don't even need to use your disruption to beat aggro decks. Though Chalice for 1 or 2 or Trini are huge bombs too.

That's a big part of the reason why I opted for Gix which helps against combo and control more, over SOFI which is better against aggro.

Goblin Snowman

07-26-2006, 03:52 PM

As for Moats, just replace a Suppression Field and a Ghostly Prison with a couple of them. Honestly, if you feel that you need help with the topdeck problem, run Temporal Aperture instead; in my testing, I tend to like it more than Cloister, but Cloister is better worse against Deadguy: like Vindicating Cloister. Another thing a friend of mine did was spash Blue in solely for Fact or Fiction... which was weird...

An answer to Deadguy I can think of is Sacred Ground and Powder Keg. Sacred Ground protects your lands and Keg kills Confidants and Shades.

He splashed U only for FoF? TFK exists you know.

Deadguy - They rarely kill it, seeing as how they need to kill so many other things, like Smokestack, Crucible, Moat, ect. Temporal Aperture is an interesting idea, but paying 5 can hurt you in the mid game, by not being able to use it, or by tombing yourself for alot. Also, can be Needled, which makes it worse. Cloister has the advantages of making Bridge great, being a one time investment, and screwing discard. Disadvantages are Disenchant, Naturlize, and Vindicate. But most decks care more about killing powerful lock pieces (Like Rifter with Smokestack, Deadguy with Crucible + Wasteland and the like).

stompy

07-26-2006, 04:33 PM

@SuckerPunch,
I hope you don't take offense to this here in this thread but, seriously, the comments of your deck defense in other threads, "like arguing with a brick wall" apply here too.
Please, the deck is based on SMOKESTACK control, and frankly, (unless I am blind) I don't see named card in your list. You have called it "Black Stompy" and replied to that thread numerous times already.

Again, I am NOT flaming you. But we are here talking about how to make THIS deck a contender in the current wide open metagame of legacy. If your suggestions can stay on the topic of Angel Stax, stick around, you just might enjoy the deck. Otherwise, please keep your posts to your original forum.

On topic.... I have wondered about the blue splash myself for Hatching Plans. Me thinks its a good card for sac'ing to stax. Seems like it could get through a counter early game and then sits waiting to be sac'd, destroyed, etc... Thoughts?

lolosoon

07-26-2006, 05:06 PM

On topic.... I have wondered about the blue splash myself for Hatching Plans. Me thinks its a good card for sac'ing to stax. Seems like it could get through a counter early game and then sits waiting to be sac'd, destroyed, etc... Thoughts?
I'd not fond in playing a card only because it can be good (Ok, not just "good" 'cause draw 3 for 1U is awesome) in combination with another card and crappy otherwise.
Blue can use Propaganda instead of Ghostly Prisons and add some draw effect, but how could you replace E.Angels or the Wrath effect ?!
Morphling/Meloku cannot reach with the speed of an early unmorphed Angel, and Pendrell's Mists isn't a definitive response. It it were, all builds would pack Tabernacle in, neh ?!

And, err... on a side note, please feel free to talk about (5/3) black stompy in the dedicated thread. You'll be welcomed ^^

Machinus

07-26-2006, 08:17 PM

If you like playing stax but find that it is not aggressive enough for your play style, there is a very similar deck called 5/3 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27668.0) that is very flexible in terms of deck design. I recommend you check it out.

Goblin Snowman

07-28-2006, 08:20 PM

Do you think that splashing U is profitable? You would likely play TFK/FoF, and maybe Propogandas to supplement Prisons (If you want 6 Prisons or something). The deck is already vunerable enough to wasteland as is though.

currence

07-29-2006, 05:42 PM

For those of you bringing Angel Stax to your local tournaments:

How has time been a factor?

I've been considering a build -- very tentatively, I should say -- that cuts Angels entirely and brings in Tabernacle(s) and Mishra's Factories maindeck (fewer mana issues on hitting WW for Angel, more targets for opposing Wastelands [so more opportunities for them to hit incorrectly], recurring threats with Crucible, etc.). I am considering this because how I understand the deck, there are nearly no situations in which you ought to be the beatdown (else we'd be 5/3). In taking the "stax/prison" concept to the extreme, I forgo the possibility for a quick win with the inevitability of always having relevant and "castable" cards. There are no other decks in the format that have the same kind of inevitability as stax (aside from Solidarity, which we technically beat in the early game), given its multiple "hard" and "soft" locks.

Of course this modification would drastically increase the win-time of the deck.

emidln

07-30-2006, 03:11 PM

Factory vs Angel was never really an issue for me when I played since I ran 1 Factory and 3 Angels. Recurring Factory is nice sometimes, but I think the most important part about Angel in the matchups where it matters is that the Angel gains life. Usually, if I have a prison set up, it doesn't matter whether I actually unmorph the angel or not.

Machinus

07-30-2006, 05:58 PM

As I said some time ago, running four of each is easy to do. It makes your matchup much better against any deck with creatures.

SuckerPunch

08-02-2006, 10:01 AM

Stompy, no offense, but you really should look at who you cite from in the future. Referancing Cavius, given his post history really hurts your point a lot more than helping it which you would know if you actually read thru the series of posts that you cite from. I refer you to his posts on the Thrumming Stone thread or his most recent post in the Black Stompy thread if you need more proof. You had a good point, that 5/3 is closer to my area of interest, no need to hurt that point by citing things that hurt your case more than helping it. I wasn't familiar with 5/3 anywhere I checked (it just got bumped up recently) and there was no thread for it and thus this was the deck that bore the closest resemblance to that deck that I know of and actually served as a partial inspiration for the Black Stompy deck, so that's why I chose to post it here.

Back to topic, I didn't get a chance to read through the entire thread but from what I've read through, I can't find any attempts at a black splash. I would think that a black splash, with such powerful cards as Braids, Dark Ritual, and possibly even Pox would be the first cards considered for this deck. Black has board sweepers too, and Supression Field it doesn't seem like is that critical to this decks strategy. Once again forgive me if I'm wrong on that though I did test that card when it first came out. What is it that I'm missing that makes Angel such a strong creature as to warrant the splash. Yes it's a great win condition, but it really doesn't add anything to the decks strategy unless i'm missing something. A creature like Helldozer for example serves as both a beater and works with your strategy. Again, forgive me if there's some other deep buried thread for a Braids Stax that I haven't seen.

That would especially make sense given posts like this...

I've been considering a build -- very tentatively, I should say -- that cuts Angels entirely and brings in Tabernacle(s) and Mishra's Factories maindeck

Machinus

08-02-2006, 11:50 AM

Well, no offense, but you are missing almost a year's worth of development.

I have tested black extensively, but Dark Ritual is terrible. Stax cannot afford the card disadvantage, and they fight with the strongest cards in the deck, like Chalice of the Void. Braids was the card I was trying to utilize, but she prevents the use of mass creature removal, which is an important component of Stax. This difficulty is too significant in the current environment to pursue it more.

It is Wrath of God that pushes Stax into white, and Angel just happens to have several strong characteristics that make her ideal for this deck (morph, lifegain). Field, Prison, etc., are just solid cards that are in color. Wrath simultaneously shuts down aggro-control and aggro strategies while setting up the prison strategy.

SuckerPunch

08-02-2006, 02:23 PM

Technically, Angel is everybit as vulnerable to Wrath as Braids is to cards like Mutilate and what not. And Greater Harvestor and Helldozer survives mutilate usually. Fair enough though, I just wanted to make sure black, Great Harvestor, Helldoze, Mutilate and braids was indeed considered somewhere in the development cycle as I wasn't able to get through all 19 pages. I guess I was think of something akin to Train Wreck including a similar mana base but with a ton of Stax components. Train Stax.

Machinus

08-02-2006, 04:44 PM

Braids and Angel serve different roles. Black Stax would be designed to exploit Braids, which specifically precludes the use of mass removal. Angel Stax isn't designed around Angel, so she doesn't interfere with your strategy (unless you cast her on turn 1, which isn't the usual game plan).

Bane of the Living

08-02-2006, 05:35 PM

There are actually a couple black staxs threads. One is mono black and one is w/b. Im sure you can find them in the New and Developmental somewhere. The only real nice thing about Braids is that your opponent immediately needs to start saccing perms to her, the bad part is creature removal becoming more significant. Like Chris said, wrath is simply too good not to play in Stax.

Goblin Snowman

08-03-2006, 02:14 PM

Penguins&Bagels

08-04-2006, 01:32 AM

I dont think you have to blame your opponent, it's usually the Stax player who has to know how to manage his time. Concede if you know your losing, because dragging a losing game is such a waste.

Smokestack is your win condition Game 1; And after that, games 2 and 3 it's Exalted Angel. Learn from this.

eyamxi

08-06-2006, 06:23 PM

What is the viability of Ghost Quarter in replacement of the Rishadan Ports? It gives the deck 8 strip effects and the potential to completely drain them of lands...

Bane of the Living

08-07-2006, 05:12 PM

What is the viability of Ghost Quarter in replacement of the Rishadan Ports? It gives the deck 8 strip effects and the potential to completely drain them of lands...

There is no viability. Ghost Quarter drops you another perm count when activated which is bad with Tangle Wire, its also garbage without Crucible when port isnt. I couldnt strip away enough lands for it to matter in any matchups. Its more trouble then its worth.

Goblin Snowman

08-07-2006, 07:51 PM

In the Solidarity matchup it can make their land worse, which Port already does better. Most decks run anywhere between 3 to 6 basics, which makes the effect very slow. If you feel the need for another land that kills land, I'd do Dust Bowl, since it can eat land without Crucible.

GoTreK

08-14-2006, 12:40 PM

I have already spent quite a few time to read the thread, but by now I unfortunately only got to page 10.
Somewhere around page 8 or 9 Bottled Cloister was suggested to run along with Ensnaring Bridge. What do you guys think of that? I have to admit that I haven't played Angel Stax on a Tournament yet, but I think those cards (4x each) are really awesome, since Cloister is a very strong Draw Engine with practically no Drawback and has great synergy with Ensnaring Bridge. Both cards are as well very good on their own, so I feel like they are a good addition to the deck.
Ensnaring Bridge > Ghostly Prisom imho
both cc3, and most of the time you have only got 0-2 cards in your hand anyway
It was said that Bottled Cloister is a great risk when it's removed but I dont quite agree, because you mainly play it when every other lock components are played. Furthermore Cloister is not likely to be removed at once.
Sry for my (probably many) mistakes, but I think it takes some time to get used to discuss things like that in english:tongue:

emidln

08-14-2006, 12:51 PM

The problem with Cloister/Bridge is that you are forced to run cards that don't actually do anything for you without the other. Bridge is good by itself since you don't draw many cards and always have a low handsize, but it make it amazing, you need Cloister. Cloister is just bad by itself. It doesn't disrupt the opponent and provides really weak card drawing for a lot of mana.

The downside to running bridge is that you either have to Stax lock in order to sac the bridge to beat down with your factory/angel, or run a different win condition. If you're doing that, then you have an entirely different deck.

GoTreK

08-14-2006, 12:57 PM

@Cloister
Maybe I dont understand the card correctly, but to me it reads "spend 4 mana to draw an extra card every turn". The Drawback doesn't matter at all imho...

Whit3 Ghost

08-14-2006, 01:04 PM

If destroyed when your hand is RFGed, you lose your hand. That is why people aren't so big on it.

emidln

08-14-2006, 01:18 PM

@Cloister
Maybe I dont understand the card correctly, but to me it reads "spend 4 mana to draw an extra card every turn". The Drawback doesn't matter at all imho...

The spend 4 mana part on something that doesn't always actively disrupt my opponent is the problem in my opinion. It was also mentioned that if the Cloister is destroyed, your hand is still RFG. That seems terrible, and in my testing, I just went with Uba Mask.

GoTreK

08-14-2006, 02:24 PM

If destroyed when your hand is RFGed, you lose your hand. That is why people aren't so big on it.
I think this affect is almost fully negligible, since our only cards that we keep in hand for some time are four WoG. The rest is played directly.
I'd use Cloister not until I played all my lock (that I have at that point) anyway. But then the CA we get should be overwhelming. I consider it (theoretically, havent tested it yet) _the_ solution for the "soft lock" problem:

It was said that due to lack of a timely Angel or of more (hard) lock-cards the "soft lock" was pretty often useless. Running Cloister would mean we draw 2 cards each turn and therefore a) get enough lock-cards to maintain or even boost the lock & b) draw the Angel in time to end the game.

Thoughts?

note:
Ensnaring Bridge + Angel might not be as good prison + angel, I think you have a point there

edit:
@emidln
I dont get how Uba Mask should create CA for you?!
I agree, that its probably the greatest problem that Cloister doesn't disrupt by itself

Goblin Snowman

08-14-2006, 02:51 PM

I had tried running Bridge and Cloister, but Bridge screwed my Angel WAY to much. I have had much success with Clositer, seeing as how it generates rediculous card advantage, prevents discard, for a small drawback. Rifter, Deadguy, and possibly Goblins have mained ways of killing it, and they should be aiming those at more important lock pieces. (Unless you drop it with 5 or so cards removed, then shame on you). This deck can easily empty its hand, and I have never had horrible problems with losing a 3rd 3Sphere or something. I'm testing Moat and Humility in the place of Bridge right now.

GoTreK

08-14-2006, 03:12 PM

I absolutely agree with you. I personally didn't even think about the discard issue! :)
So we got some nice Pros and I would like to know the experts' opinions on the matter, since I honestly can see any grave disadvantages. Less lockparts should be ok, because due to Cloister we draw more of them.

edit: my proposal is to do it like this
+3 Bottled Cloister (you dont wanna have it twice)
-1 Ghostly Prison (3 should still be enough)
-2 Suppression Field (you are more often able to deny mana and I didn't know what else to cut; shouldn't hurt as much as cutting any other card)

edit2:
Being on page 14 right now I found a nice quote for the very problem I tried to solve with those Cloisters...

Honestly the only problems I ever have with the deck even in tournament play is its ability to suck at top decking. When you reach no cards in hand there are those games where you'll top deck this..

City of Traitors
Plains
Mox Diamond
2nd Crucible of the Worlds
Ghostly Prison

That happens often, if that was part of my opening hand Id be all about it. But when Im going into late game I need to get the business spells like Smokestack or WoG. The deck is in desparate need of card draw, Ive been testing 2 Temporal Apatures in the deck in the place of 2 Suppression Fields. Theyre working quite well so far but I havent taken them to a tourny yet. Ill keep you guys posted.

Toranor

08-14-2006, 07:21 PM

Yesterday I took part in a tournament hoping Stax would do well this time.
Before I have managed only positives results with Stax but I have never made it to top8 or anything else.
This time I felt like my deck must hate me. I went 2-4 (losing even a mirror match... and I lost to Angel Stompy, Rifter omg..., Landstill omg... he played disk, I answered with Carmic Justice but he had a Repeal...)
Again a faced some common problems:
The "top deck mode" with too many lands or too many unwanted cards
Suppression Fields hitting the table too late

That's why I start to believe a fundamental change of the standart deck list is needed.
Even if Suppression Field looks nice you need it early to punish your opponent playing fetch lands. Rifter is played rarely and in my match he always hat enough mana so that fields were no problem for him.
I think there might be a possibility to solve both problems (see above).
We could cut the fields, add fetches again and play somethink like Tundra + Thirst for Knowledge. (Then we couldn't be agry drawing a field too late)
Furthermore it would be an advantage to add Karn then.

Maybe even we could give Bottled Cloister a try. Everyone has always believed it was bad but why hasn't anybody tested it enough?
I think GOTreK's approach isn't bad (as he even cuts fields) but I'd rather have only 3 Wrath of God than only 3 Ghostly Prison.

By the way I think we need the maximum of acceleration meaning 4 Tombs, 4 Cities and 4 Moxen because losing the dice roll and not being able to put some threats on the table in your first turn slows you down too much in my opinion. What do you think?

Bane of the Living

08-14-2006, 07:53 PM

I played with the deck in a tourny on Sunday. I went 1-2 not making it into the top 4.

Round 1
Opponent is playing a blue green deck with Aether Vial, FoW's, Mystic Snake, Troll Aestetic, Rancor, Voidslime, ect. I get some lock pieces down but he comes through with a BoP and a Rancor. Very annoying.

Game 2 I crush him with turn one chalice, turn 2 smokestack. turn 3 crucible wastelock, gg.

Game 3 he beats me up with early Trolls while I struggle with a 2 land hand pitching one to a mox. I had a crucible in my hand and my next 2 draws were mox diamond. eww. I lose alot of life till I wrath. after a long drawn out game he ekks in the last points of damage and I lose.

Round 2 Some kid with a black and artifact deck. a few affinity pieces and ashnods altar for big Maga's. Jank.

I win, its jank. 2-0

Round 3 Gobs
I play against a vintage player named Caleb. We start off talking about eternal shit, and he mentions how he doesnt really know the format. hes came into round one with goblin recruiter in his deck. haha opps! those go to mountains. Hes playing a very bad built with Ancient Tomb over Ports, maindeck Quirion Dyrad, NO AETHER VIAL. I saw a couple Lightning Bolts out of him as well.
Game one is bad since I see no white cards. I still get wastelock and get tanglewires, chalice, trinisphere, and smokestack down in a timely fashion to take the win.
Game 2 he plays Null Rod, and I have 2 Powder Keg in hand from my sb. He also plays Rack and Ruin twice. Destroying Crucible and Trinisphere one time. Destroying a new Tangle Wire and CotV@1. I cant handle 2 Rack and Ruins and I lose. God damn vintage players!
Game 3 I get crushed because I cant draw accel and get get the Wrath in my hand off. He stunts my mana with a Wasteland while he beats on me with men.
Dispite his crazy janky version of gobs he top decks like a champion and takes the games.

So I dont make top 4. Ive been pretty disappointed with this deck lately. Im not so sure about its performance consistancy. I took like 9 mulligans over the day. It gets the broken vintage like plays and kicks ass, but sometimes its just plain crap because your opponent sneaks through a gap in your lock. Hell even Machinus doesnt have faith in the deck anymore. Im loosing mine as well. I might try a different version of stax.

Citrus-God

08-14-2006, 08:01 PM

Even I semi-retired from this deck... I played ThreshGro instead. It's not very consisteny in terms of openings... Sorry to every body who lost faith in this.

Goblin Snowman

08-14-2006, 08:17 PM

I stand by that this deck just needs better aggro lock pieces, like Humility and Moat. 3 Humility/3 Moat/4 Wrath seem to rape enough random aggro right now, and I should post a tourny report in here on Wednesday. But if even less people play this deck, I guess that there will be less of a Rack and Ruin issue.

EDIT - Other cards for testing - Quicksand. This could be in the deck as a one or two of, if you aren't too white heavy. It can kill Lackey, and with Crucible, it gets very mean.

Confinment - Before this was not possible, but with Bottled Cloister and Smokestack it could be very usable. If anyone has already tried these, tell me, because I'd hate to waste time.

Machinus

08-14-2006, 09:46 PM

Goblin Snowman

08-14-2006, 10:05 PM

The metagame has not evolved in the way that I expected. Legacy is just very unpredictable and that has significant implications for a control deck like this. If I were to play the deck now I would probably play one of my older lists, from last year, because that environment was much closer to today's than the one I anticipated with the second build of my deck.

For anyone that is interested, here is a version that I would recommend you try out against today's decks:

4 Exalted Angel
4 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Powder Keg
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
6 Plains

The sideboard is much more specific, and my discussion of it in my previous articles is excellent.

Quick question - is having 29 mana sources and no draw that good of an idea? Powder Keg was never really that hot, unless I was playing against something with to many Artifact lands. Do you think that 4 Angels should be there? Is 3 and 4 Factories enough? Your only ways with dealing with aggro are 1 Moat, 4 Wrath and Keg (Which I still don't like in the main, since it gives them 1-3 turns if top decked, and you look like you're going to be topping alot.). I can tell you from Exp. that that is not enough when trying to deal with really any aggro deck, be it goblins or Zilla Stompy.

Citrus-God

08-16-2006, 11:04 PM

I reverted to this version...

// Mana 27
4 Mox Diamond
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

// Creatures 4
4 Exalted Angel

// Spells 30
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Defense Grid
4 Disenchant
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law

Powder Keg was too slow. Since I sided out Chalices on the draw all the time, I may as well side in Swords.

Goblin Snowman

08-16-2006, 11:32 PM

Sorry for the double post, but here is my tourny report with Angel Stax in a weekly 1.5 tourny.

List

3x Exalted Angel
3x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Moat
3x Humility
3x Tangle Wire
4x Wrath of God
3x Bottled Cloister
4x Smokestack
4x Crucible of Worlds

3x Mox Diamond
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Flooded Strand
1x City of Traiters (I'm more white than most are, so I'm playing a fetch in it's spot)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Wateland
2x Dust Bowl (Testing Dust Bowl, since it can be used without Crucible)
9x Plains

Sideboard
3x Suppression Field
4x Seal of Clensing
2x COP Red
2x Tormond's Crypt
4x Rule of Law
Match One - URWG Sneak Attack.
I keep an OK hand, little mana flooded but it's ok. He wins the roll, plays fetch, eot Brainstorm off a Trop. I drop 3Sphere next turn, he cycles land, and Witness's is back next turn. Drops Sneak next turn, cycles and rips Dragon Tyrent for the win off of it. -1 Trinisphere, -1 Tangle Wire, -1 Wrath, +3 Suppression Field
G2, turn one Chalice @1. Next turn Wastelock with Crucible, prompting him to fetch his only basics. I rip a 2nd Smokestack, and drop both out over the next turns, one of which is Naturelized. I eat his land and stop his Loam draw engine with double Suppresion Field, and keep myself safe from witness trix with a Humility. This game goes on since he doesn't scoop, and I finally beat him to death with an Angel and Factory.
G3, we get 3 minutes in and 5 turns are called. He kindly scooped to me, since I had a lock down. I wish. We rolled die for the winner. But I did have a lock down.

1-0-0
Match 2 BW Uber Aggro
He starts with turn one Dark Rit, Chrome Mox (Swords), Lotus Petal, Toshi Umezawa and his Jitte. Next turn Dark Rit, Sword of Light and Shadow, equip Jitte, bash for 2. I'm at 18. Over the next few turns, I chump an Angel to stay alieve and rip Moat off the top. Then Wrath. Then Smokestacks+3Spheres.
G2, I really thought about Seals, but didn't (IDK why in hindsight) He gets an explosive start, but no creature (ty god). I draw 3 Factories in a row, and he sided out all his creature hate. There was a moment of Landstill nostelgia when I Wrathed and beat with Factories.
2-0-0
Match 3 UG Madness
I lose the role the 3rd match in a row, and he Careful Studies, ditching Deep Anal and Rootwalla. I get stuck on 3 Plains, and the turn I draw the 4th and Moat, he top decks a Wonder. I end up hating that card alot later. -1 Trinisphere, -2 Bottled Clostier +3 Suppression Field.
G2 I get T1 Field, to which he shows me 3 Fetchs. I win in short order, although he did Daze a Trini which I found cool, since he likly hasn't seen Chang's list.
G3 I get a turn 3 Humility followed by turn 4 Moat. I eat his board while he digs for Naturelize, then I Chailice at 2 to seal the deal.
3-0-0 So far very happy, I know that 3 of the other 3-0s are Goblins, Zombies (proving yet again the power of Dark Rit), and GW Aggro with no equiptment, all of which are good matchups. Then I learn that the other person is Friggorid when I get to play him, which is by far Stax's worse match. Ug. And, proving yet again that fate hates me, guess who I play!
Match 4 UB Friggorid. (Pretty janky though, but still sucks)
I lose the roll (again. 4th time now). Brokeness ensues on his end, leaving me facing lethal turn 3. I drop Moat to stem the bleeding, he dredges Grave Troll, hits a Deep Anal and 2 more, and the last card dredged is ........ Wonder.... I hate that card with a firely passion at this point. -2 Chalice, -2 3Sphere -1 Bottled Cloister, + 2 Tormound's Crypt, +3 Suppression Field.
G2 I have turn 2 Angel face up. I waste his lands to keep him off Stinkweed imp, and there's no way he can race an 8 point life sweeng a turn. I admit this game was pure luck.
G3, see game one, but with early Moat, Wrath, Angel, and him drawing 2 Echoing Truths for my Angel. Oh and I Crypt away his wonder, only to have him get another next turn. I hate basic land.
3-1-0

Well, if I had played any other deck I think I would have won, but that's life.

Props - Angel, for gaining life.
- People scooping to Rogue Leader, despite Psychatog not being lethal
- Moat. I had to say it again.
Slops - Wonder. This card has no idea how much I hate it. I'm going out back to destroy my copies of it right now.
- Ichorid in general, and any deck not reliant on having a board position.
- People who pee with the door open.
- Myself, for costing a guy who was playing 43 land and perms by pointing out that the Suppression Field on the board still works. Sorry Tim.

Anarky87

08-17-2006, 01:02 AM

I'm just kinda throwing this out there because I saw it in someone's binder tonight. But has anyone tried Eater of Days in the creature slot? You lose two turns, but you could stack it in your favor. Leave Smokestack with 2-3 counters on it, maybe a Tangle Wire or two and some other lock pieces, let them take their turn, where they tap 4 and sac 2-3. Then repeat for the next 2 turns. Just an idea, I always thought the deck was a neat concept, but seemed a little too random and inconsistent for my liking. This is probably a really bad suggestion, but I thought I'd toss it out there. Maybe something like:

//Creatures// 5
3 Exalted Angel
2 Eater of Days

//Non-Creature// 29
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wrath
3 Moat
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible

//Land// 26
4 Wastelands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
8 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory

Goblin Snowman

08-17-2006, 10:18 AM

[QUOTE=Anarky87;84771]I'm just kinda throwing this out there because I saw it in someone's binder tonight. But has anyone tried Eater of Days in the creature slot? You lose two turns, but you could stack it in your favor. Leave Smokestack with 2-3 counters on it, maybe a Tangle Wire or two and some other lock pieces, let them take their turn, where they tap 4 and sac 2-3. Then repeat for the next 2 turns. Just an idea, I always thought the deck was a neat concept, but seemed a little too random and inconsistent for my liking. This is probably a really bad suggestion, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

It might be worth testing, seeing as how when Time Vault was usable it was played in Stax. But again, the reason Angel is played is to make up for life loss. It's a 8 point life swing a turn that can come out on 2nd turn swinging. It's the same reason I dropped Razormane Masticore (which rapes aggro btw) and Karn when I used them.

Anarky87

08-17-2006, 11:13 AM

It might be worth testing, seeing as how when Time Vault was usable it was played in Stax. But again, the reason Angel is played is to make up for life loss. It's a 8 point life swing a turn that can come out on 2nd turn swinging. It's the same reason I dropped Razormane Masticore (which rapes aggro btw) and Karn when I used them.

Oh, yeah. I'm not saying replace the Angel with EoD, just as an addition to the Angel. You could even drop 1 of something else and run the fourth Angel. I used to drop 1 Mox for the 4th Angel. Then you could have a 4/2 split or something. It was just something I thought interesting that seemed to work well with the other lock pieces in the deck, just as Angel works well in replacing the life loss you take from creatures and your own lands.

Goblin Snowman

08-17-2006, 11:27 AM

Oh, yeah. I'm not saying replace the Angel with EoD, just as an addition to the Angel. You could even drop 1 of something else and run the fourth Angel. I used to drop 1 Mox for the 4th Angel. Then you could have a 4/2 split or something. It was just something I thought interesting that seemed to work well with the other lock pieces in the deck, just as Angel works well in replacing the life loss you take from creatures and your own lands.

It is a very cool idea, but unless you have Smokestack on board, he's not so good. Angel is always good, and I'd usually rather have a lock piece than a beater.

meanee

08-17-2006, 11:35 AM

I've played the EATER (it has to be capitalized... It eats days!) to some succes. It is not very easy to play, while you are really f*cked if you play it wrong, BUT it can actually be played without a smokestack on the board. You just have to have a tangle wire@2-4, trinisphere, sphere of resistance, whatever... If you have wrecked your opponents manabase before you play it, chances are that they won't be able to get rid of it (even though I can tell you it sucks big time when you drop it, and then your opponent top-decks a disenchant...)

Anyway, I think it is absolutely one of the better creatures for stax. It is not nearly as good, as angel, but if you do not have access to white mana, then the EATER is cool...

- meanee

Anarky87

08-17-2006, 04:31 PM

Yup, that's all true. It was just my suggestion, and the name was pretty cool too, so I decided to offer that bit up. And yeah, I'd probably want a Smokestack online before I dropped him (That way you could make the most out of those two locked turns), and I can see already having a Chalice set for 1, maybe even another at 2. That would at least protect him from being sent farming or Disenchanted/Edicted. But Angel will always be the best creature in the deck.

Machinus

08-17-2006, 10:36 PM

Eater of Days is bad for the same reason that Time Vault was bad: it only works when you are already winning. On top of that, those cards didn't actually improve your game state, since taking turns is still always better than not taking turns. You can always improve your lock, or just kill your opponent if they don't concede.

If you want to run more guys, play a 5/3 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27668.0) deck.

_erbs_

08-18-2006, 10:37 PM

Hello fellow Angel STAX players out there, I've been testing & tweaking my Angel Stax deck for quite a long time now, so far i find these kind of variant to be the most successful, but I still do encounters some problems and I don't know what to do anymore. HELP :smile: Im sure each of us would want the STAX deck to be a deck to be recon with in legacy format.

Here's my deck list and a short infos on why I picked that card over the normal Angel Stax deck which was posted above.

MANA
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
10 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
-----
27

CREATURES
3 Exaulted Angel
1 Karn, Silver Golem
-----
4

NON-CREATURES
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tanglewire
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Crusible of Worlds
-----
29

Why I didn't choose the following cards:
• Ghostly Prison - needs to be in multiple to work well
• Rishashan Port - to many colorless mana & i feel its kinda weak works well in early games only.
• Humility - i would like to put that in to solve the creature problems but since i can't think of any other win condition besides creature i dropped it. I've also tried Iron Maiden as another form of win condi. but its too slow.
• Moat - A strong card but it costs too much hehe :smile:

Cards I choose or Im considering:
• Supression Field - a card which could be strong againts other decks bec., alone it could be a nice lock in specific decks, i didn't choose it at the moment due to card conflicts.
• Powder Keg - another card which im thinking of trying out, i just didn't placed it on my MB.
• Eater of Days - I haven't gotten thats why hehe, but I would like to test it out though and see how it runs.
• Sphere of Resistance - I just don't know what to remove so i could put them in. For me the deck is to tight. Does anyone tried it playing in MB ?

Why I pick them over the others:
• Bottled Cloister - the draw it gives fars out weights the darw back, i started the deck with no draw engine but, i really feel the deck needs a draw engine, depending on top deck or in offs of the cards is insufficient IMO.
• Swords to Plowshares - i felt that the early anti creature is beneficial though I wanted to replace it with powder kegs.
• Karn, Silver Golem & Mishara's Factory - addtional and faster win condition.
• Seal of Cleansing - Nev's Disc or other artifact hate enchantments just wrecks this deck, and i feel that thats why we pick white over RED to have enchantment removal.

I didn't made the following 4 Offs:
• Wasteland - a dead card vs mono colored decks
• Ancient Tomb - too much ouch !!
• City of Traitors - need permanent mana in play
• COV and Trinishpere - to have addtional space for seal of cleansing, though I know the lock components would be affected. But the effect wasn't that bad.

* Would RED be a much better option for STAX than white due to goblin welder , though in legacy format it would always be dead due to the number of anti creatures beign used in legacy decks.

* Whats the use if could lock your opponent but you can't win. Timeout during tornaments means that the deck still needs improvement.

Machinus

08-19-2006, 04:19 AM

Here's my deck list and a short infos on why I picked that card over the normal Angel Stax deck which was posted above.

*decklist & explanations*

Thanks for your analysis. This is the kind of local customization that is required for Stax to succeed. I can see how your choices make sense in a certain environment. A few days ago I posted the list I would use in bigger metas (like SCG), but everyone should understand by now that Legacy metagames can change dramatically from region to region.

That being said, I still think you could improve your list. What decks are you trying to compete with?

_erbs_

08-19-2006, 04:37 AM

Thanks for your analysis. This is the kind of local customization that is required for Stax to succeed. I can see how your choices make sense in a certain environment. A few days ago I posted the list I would use in bigger metas (like SCG), but everyone should understand by now that Legacy metagames can change dramatically from region to region.

That being said, I still think you could improve your list. What decks are you trying to compete with?

Any suggestions ? it would really be great :smile: , currently decks I've been againsts are:
Landstill, Vile Goblins, White winnie, Iggy pop, Solidarity, U/G Madness, Fish, Worse than Fish, different types of Discarder decks and several variants of AGGRO DECKS

Machinus

08-19-2006, 05:08 AM

At the very least I would change the deck like this:

+1 Chalice
+1 Wrath
+1 Angel

You will probably have to cut swords for them. What cards from my above list aren't working for you?

Bane of the Living

08-19-2006, 09:09 AM

Any suggestions ? it would really be great :smile: , currently decks I've been againsts are:
Landstill, Vile Goblins, White winnie, Iggy pop, Solidarity, U/G Madness, Fish, Worse than Fish, different types of Discarder decks and several variants of AGGRO DECKS

I think you should sideboard Swords to Plowshares. Chalice is one of the best cards in the deck and at one it will counter each one you draw. The deck cant afford to draw dead like that even if you are running Bottled Cloister.

Im confused since you say your meta is full of aggro yet you completely cut Ghostly Prison and your not even running the full 4 Wraths.

I dont know why you need Seal of Removal. I cant think of anything you would even need to destroy with it. If you were playing Suppression Field you'd have something to hinder your opponents Aether Vial. Besides Vial there arent too many artifacts or enchantments you should care about. You do have Smokestack, which will eventually eat away your opponents board.

Oh and Karn sucks.

_erbs_

08-19-2006, 09:32 AM

@Machinus
before my configuration was 4 CoV 4 Wrath 4 E.Angel. But i opted to change my configuration to have space for seal. Before i don't run seal of cleansing on my MB but, when your faced with mono decks that have nevs or landstill that also have nevs and poweder keg, or other even a single creature with jitte it really hurts. Im sure even with 7 anti creatures sometimes you exprience it too, that you can't get even one of them.

-CoV Issue
I know CoV is a very powerful lock component but, when you have 1 or 2 in play the next CoV you draw are alomst dead cards. Most of the time the rest of the CoV you draw ounce you play 1 or 2 in play are food for smokestack, you can't even use them as creatures.

-Wrath Issue
I lessen the number of wrath for addtional space, and i pick to wrath over STP , cause STP is much faster to cast and it could stop an early onslaught by a negator or other big fatty.

-Angel Issue
I opted to go with 1 Karn, bec. with my number of artifacts in play i could achieve a faster win condition over the 1 E.Angel.

@bane_of_the_living
As i've posted from above, ghostly prison doesn't work well alone, you could only feel its effect when its in multiples. It could work wonders if theres a way that i could destory or have mana delpetion but the deck is just too tight and i don't know what to cut. I'll rather kill does creatures than let them stay on the board.

-Seal Issue
A single creature with jitte speeds your death clock in 2 to 3 turns.

-Wrath Issue
I lessen the number of wrath for addtional space, and i pick to wrath over STP , cause STP is much faster to cast and it could stop an early onslaught by a negator or other big fatty.

-Supression Field
I used it before but in MB but decided to place in the SB due to lack of space, I know supression field alone could do a decent lockdown on specific decks.

Smokestack is good if you could cast it early on and have more permanents than your oppoent but when it arrives in late game, it does a really really slow job in eating permanents.

Why do karn sucks ??

------------------------------------------
Would you think that RED STAX would be much effect over WHITE ? even with the high number of anti creatures that would hit your goblin welder in the legacy format ?

A few pro's i see in RED over WHITE:
• Goblin Welder to weld in and out specific artifacts and with grafted skullcap you would also achieve a faster win condition.
• Pyroclasm = is a very nice creaure sweeper over wrath of god. due to its casting cost.
• Other artifact creatures that would work in synergy with goblin welder that would out do the E.Angel, like triskelion, sundering titan, bosh, even su chi could be mini version of metalworker via the welder, etc.

Goblin Snowman

08-19-2006, 12:17 PM

Red is a powerful Stax color, check and see if a Wildfire Stax thread is up. Welder dies to just about everything in the format, but he wins games sometimes. Wildfire Stax is in my opinion the best Red Stax deck out there right now.

Have there been times for you when you have not had a way with dealing with Aggro? I can see why you're not running Humility, that is a very debatable card. But 3 Wrath and Swords don't seem like the'll be enough to stop Goblin or another aggro deck. Ghostly Prison is a very good card, I'm just not using it in my build because I have Moat.

Karn is bad because he sucks on Defense. He doesn't kill anything, and Angel's Lifegain is very pertinant against really any aggro deck. Angel prevents topdecked burn or hasty creatures from killing you when you don't have a lock. I've gotten down to 2-3 life against Sligh/Burn/Zoo, and Angel is the only thing that lets me recover. Also, I don't like how Karn can be Needled.

Seal of Clensing should only be used to take down cards that kill Stax, like Deed, Disk or Serenity. That Jitte could have been stopped by having more options that handle creatures. I actully really wanted to fit this in, but there are better slots.

I agree with Suppression Field in the 'board, I needed space and it screwed with my land to much.

Smokestack is crazy good. In a few turns it can destroy everything someone has.

Machinus

08-19-2006, 01:02 PM

Red is a powerful Stax color, check and see if a Wildfire Stax thread is up. Welder dies to just about everything in the format, but he wins games sometimes. Wildfire Stax is in my opinion the best Red Stax deck out there right now.

The only thread right now is my old one (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27779.0). I will be starting a new one soon.

Bane of the Living

08-19-2006, 01:18 PM

That Jitte could have been stopped by having more options that handle creatures. I actully really wanted to fit this in, but there are better slots.

I agree with Suppression Field in the 'board, I needed space and it screwed with my land to much.

@erbs
Suppression Field is the shit against Jitte. If your losing to it maybe you should be playing these. Infact, you have so many maindeck changes to your build of Angel Stax you might want to go back to the original list for a while, to see what exactly didnt work for you. Spend more time getting familiar with the way the cards play out. I was doubtfull of alot of card choices as well. I experimented with many different cards. Go through the pages to see.. I ended up right back here to Machinus's main list with a one card difference. 4 Exalted Angels. Play around with the deck more. Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison put alot of stress on the opponents mana. Revert back to that plan and you'll see the other lock pieces become that much better.

Goblin Snowman

08-19-2006, 02:51 PM

For the record, I want to say that with Field in my board I board them in around 80% of the time. I'll use the same reasoning IBA uses in Truffle Shuffle with Witness, I want to know what I should board out against the deck.

_erbs_

08-19-2006, 10:54 PM

@Goblin Snowman
I've seen the wildfire stax posted by machinus, im guessing its a totally new game play over the regular stax of old. I haven't had the chance to play test such a deck.

Moat is really a very good card :smile: no questions asked. Thanks on your insight about Karn, I never tought of it that way hehehe.

@bane_of_the_living
I know suppression field is a strong card i just don't know what to pull out in favor of it.

@Machinus
Seeing the Wildfire STAX, Goblin Snowman could be correct that its the strongest STAX deck in the current format. Maybe you could post a more effective STAX deck no matter what the color it would have. I just wanted to play STAX in legacy format, and have good resuslts.

----------------------
Thanks for all the help guys / gals.

Goblin Snowman

08-21-2006, 05:58 PM

Has anyone tried Confinment? It would require us to run 4 Smokestacks and 4 Clositers, but it seems like a testable idea to me, if anyone would. Also, in an Goblin Heavy meta, would it be alright to drop 1x Wasteland, 1x Factory for 2 Quicksand, with possibly 2 more in the board. They rock vs. Goblins. I'm trying to get Black Stax together, and don't have much time to test these ideas.

Machinus

08-21-2006, 06:19 PM

Confinement is just a Fog. It's not really worth it.

Goblin Snowman

08-21-2006, 06:59 PM

Confinement is just a Fog. It's not really worth it.

But with Clositer out it's a standing Fog that protects from Combo/SGC shenanagans that doesn't go away, and with Smokestack (I'm going to call it SS from here on out) it can give enough time to sweep their board. It CAN be a fog, but it can be so much more.

Machinus

08-21-2006, 07:04 PM

Goblin Snowman

08-21-2006, 07:56 PM

I suppose, but that's why I said for it to work, you needed to run 4 Bottled Cloister. I do agree with you though, I was just wondering if anyone had actully tested it.

_erbs_

08-22-2006, 01:44 AM

For it to not be a fog, it requires set-up. In a Stax deck with no draw, that is a weak strategy.

I have been using the same principles in building stax for over a year now. The conditionality of confinement makes it hard for it to be consistently good in Stax, which is really important.

Just curious, when your playing stax didn't encounter problems when you don't run card drawers ? I just assume you don't run them bec of what you've mentioned.

@Goblin Snowman
black stax..., it could work.., im guessing it would be similiar to MBC braids....

------------------------
About Solitary Confinement,
The only way i see it could be used properly just maybe , if you'd use enlightened tutor to up the possiblity of getting bottled cloister and solitary confinement.

Maybe it could help if we sight out the different problems we encounter when play STAX in legacy format, then maybe we could come-up with a combination or solution for it.

As for me wheather im on play or draw:
• If you don't get mana accelerants or the 2 CC mana on your 1st 7 cards its kinda hard to lock your opponent.
• When you get to many ouch lands, you must be able to have a consistent land drop in the 1st to 4th turn.
• An early onslaught of creautures without wrath or tanglewire to hold them off is fatal
• A draw engine or some form of library manipulation is needed.

DieMyDarling

08-22-2006, 02:57 AM

For which MU do you want to have the confinement? against aggro decks moat is just much better...

p.s.
has anyone tried a u splash for things like stasis or meditat/tfk yet?

Goblin Snowman

08-23-2006, 12:58 AM

_erbs_

08-23-2006, 06:02 AM

The thing to remember about Confinment is that it's not dead against any deck. Also, I'm taking into acount that not everyone has Moats. I bought 3, but not everyone has 150$ to blow.

Erbs - I'll get a list posted when I get a chance to record more testing for B Stax.

I did try going Blue for a while, but having absolutly no Basics meant that Monored Goblins gets to go to town with Blood Moon, and you will be Wasted. In my splash build I ran 2 more Propogandas with 4 Ghostly Prisons, 3 FoF and 2 TFK., with additional SB options.

Yup, Solidary Confinment isn't bad but, in order to maximize its potential you musta be able to cast it early on or let it resolve.

Moat are so costly hehehe , but they are so good hehehe => Island Sanctuary might be a replacement for it if your running Bottled Cloister hehehe.

Thanks, I'll just wait for your post then about Black STAX.

Sure hope a teir 1 STAX is possible in legacy format =).

Bane of the Living

08-23-2006, 05:01 PM

For which MU do you want to have the confinement? against aggro decks moat is just much better...

p.s.
has anyone tried a u splash for things like stasis or meditat/tfk yet?

Check out Tide Stax if you miss card draw that much. Ive found Fact or Fiction to be the best choice of card draw so far. I play Stasis with Fosaken City. If you play it with Smokestack out its good game. Meditate needs Stasis to work properly and it sucks without it. Discuss blue stax in that thread tho.

Confinement is too hard to pull off. E tutor doesnt work well. Bottled Cloisters are nuts tho, and should be at least a 3 of in everyones sideboard. Its your best card against your worst matchup. Mono Black disruption decks.

Machinus

08-23-2006, 05:11 PM

I've been testing Spritual Focus, although Cloiser actually draws you cards.

Goblin Snowman

09-01-2006, 05:13 PM

Yet another card I feel might be worth inclusion - Blinding Angel
Pros - Stops aggro in it's tracks, not Boltable, Can win games singlehandedly.

Cons - Slower clock, CCM, Poor body for cost.

With this in mind I do not say drop Exalted Angel for a second. I reccommend losing any additional Creature Control that is subpar (Glares at Humility) and trying this as a 3 of.

Bane of the Living

09-02-2006, 10:49 PM

Blinding Angel came up before but I ever actually tried her. It might be worth trying 3 Exalted and 2 Blinding. It might fall into the same catagory as Windborn Muse tho, subpar.

Goblin Snowman

09-03-2006, 11:17 AM

Windborn Muse was bad because of her small body, and her effect really wasn't that great (Although I did try 4 of her with 4 Prisons for the sake of maining Armageddon) alone. Angel on the other hand wins games without any help if she stays around.

magicplaya10

09-06-2006, 06:38 PM

So I am brand new to Legacy. I do play a lot of vintage, though. In vintage, I play Stax. I saw that Legacy has a Stax deck, and I was wondering a few things.

How good is it really? Can it beat Threshold, Solidarity, and/or Goblins?

Also, can I get a most recent list?

Thanks a lot!

Bane of the Living

09-06-2006, 07:13 PM

Since we're without Mana Drain Im afraid Angel Stax is the closest thing we have to top tier stax. It has an absolute amazing Thresh matchup, at least 50/50 with gobs. Probably 50/50 against Solidarity depending if you draw into Wrath of Gods, or Trinispheres.

The maindeck hasnt changed since it was debuted here. The list is on page one along with a link to Machinus's Primer. Though outdated its still a terrific reference guide for the deck.

magicplaya10

09-06-2006, 07:32 PM

So the deck can compete really well still, right?

I just figure, I can play it well because its what I play in type one.

Bane of the Living

09-06-2006, 08:20 PM

The deck competes amazing in developed metagames. I have problems with it at tournaments where I face random.dec for the first 3 rounds. As long as you learn what order to drop the lock pieces in against which matchups you'll be fine.

magicplaya10

09-06-2006, 11:39 PM

Hmm.
well what teir do you think this deck is?
And any match-up analysis or anything?
I am really considering building this deck.

Citrus-God

09-06-2006, 11:59 PM

Tier 1.5.

This deck isnt picked up very often because the Legacy metagame is way too unpredictable. It's good against the known metagame.

Oh, and it's very different from Type 1 stax. You can only compare this deck to two things in Type 1.

The way Cron Stax plays if it has consistency, not very good on the topdecks.

The layout of Uba Stax... you know, the consistent hands. No toolbox here...

Machinus

09-11-2006, 06:20 PM

Another small update on the decklist:

MD:
4 Exalted Angel
4 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Powder Keg
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
6 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland

SB:
4 Defense Grid
4 Hannah's Custody
4 Tividar's Crusade
3 Aura Fracture

Bane of the Living

09-11-2006, 07:33 PM

So do you mind if I ask about your changes? The most noteable is the switch from Suppression Field to Powder Keg, and the fetchlands. Why did you finally make this switch? 4 Factories are better than 4 Wastelands? No Rishadin Ports?? I see you also included the 4th angel, and 4th 3sphere. Go into detail alittle sir Machinus.

Machinus

09-11-2006, 08:58 PM

Actually, I posted a list with Powder Kegs about four weeks ago in this thread (post #387).

I ran Keg in the original list two summers ago. After Lille, I expected the format to advance significantly, but it did not. I did not write any more articles after part III because there was nothing left to develop on. The list I have right now is more similar to the original list than any other, and I did not know how to present this situation. Now that people are FINALLY seeing how good combo is, Stax's prospects are looking up, but this is a recent and unique change in the format. There really was little more to say regarding Stax after part III.

Depending on what decks you play against, there may be better cards, but it's my honest opinion that Goblins is the most important matchup in the format, and Keg is better there than Field. The same explanation applies to Factories, which by the way are savage.

To secure this matchup even further, I have added a single Moat, bringing the following complement of weapons to the Goblins matchup:

4 Exalted Angel
4 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Tangle Wire
4 Powder Keg
4 Mishra's Factory

The rest of the deck must focus on combating combo decks, which thankfully Stax is already good at. Here are the relevant cards there:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

After working on Stax for so long, I have figured out some of the properties of the deck, and looked for ways to increase its consistency. The manabase that I configured recently has fourteen (one extra) colored sources and is quite stable.

The sideboard doesn't have nearly as much work as the maindeck, but it's not as tight except for the Defense Grids, which should always be there. The applicability of the remaining cards should be obvious.

Bane of the Living

09-11-2006, 09:07 PM

When Goblins is such an important matchup why cut Ghostly Prison? Im confused since this card has been the sole reason I survive the hordes.

Is Tivadar's Crusade really better in the board than Prison? Its certainly not as random//narrow and its a perm to go with Smokestack.

Since you've now cut 8 white cards from the list and added fetchlands to compliment Crucible, would you consider a color splash? Is now finally a time for Fact or Fiction?

Citrus-God

09-11-2006, 09:23 PM

yeah... Ghostly Prison is so strong, I mean, that's the whole reason how I make a last stand against Gobs with some Ports and actually win. I still like the old list with Suppression Fields... just take out the Suppression Fields.

But at the same time, I like Suppression Field for dealing with randomness. Like against Angel Stompy and Siege Gang if Prisons are too hard too hard for them to handle.

FoF's seem like a good idea. It digs deep, but it's crap against compotent players. I seem to like FoF because your opponent cant interfere with their skill.

Machinus

09-11-2006, 10:19 PM

I wouldn't want to risk getting cut off of Wrath mana. Wrath is SO important.

If you like Prison instead of Keg main, that's a fine substitution. The same goes for Crusade in the side if you like it there. Chalice + Keg combine nicely to clean up small stuff and I like that; also, having the moat and factories main does relieve a lot of pressure that prison would be dealing with.

Another reason I like Keg is because it keeps the curve a little lower. Originally I wanted to maximize the two-slot, but I now think that eight is probably enough. Keg is great there.

Goblin Snowman

09-11-2006, 10:24 PM

My problem with Prison is that you need to draw multiples or they will stil beat for 5-9 a turn with an active Piledriver, and get out the annoying Sharpshooter to screw with Wrath, (Yes, I killed myself off Wrath of God against Sharpshooter Vialed in, hitting me for around 10). Wrath of God, Angel, Moat, and Powder Keg can sweep board, allow you to race them, or flat out prevent them from attacking. Tanglewire's good because it's good in every MU, and it happens to be pretty good against goblins. My versions of Angel Stax were designed to fight a random Aggro and Goblins heavy meta, to the point where they resemble Wombat, except they can beat Combo.

@Machinus - You really value Factory over Wasteland? I actully drpeed City to play both, but that didn't turn out so well, plus like having a 2/2 under Humility. I don't like Crusade in the board, if anything run Sphere of Law/Reverence, since they can be used outside, and they both are far more powerful than Wraths 5-8 in my opinion. Also, Blinding Angel dies to everything. I didn't like her.

_erbs_

09-12-2006, 12:17 AM

When i was playing Angel STAX, mishra's factory helped alot as a addtional win condtion and a ressiliant blocker via crucible. Yes you have board sweepers but you can't always depend on them, even if their are in 4 offs, due to the lack of a draw engine or a library manipulation.

Wasteland & Rishadan Port, since i started playing legacy stax i've found and felt that having a full set wasteland isn't a good thing, most decks [ atleast in our meta is wasteland immune ] bec f mono colorness or just uses a minimum of non-basic lands and rely on fetch. I rather have 2CC producing or a man land card on the 4th slot of wasteland plus you have COW.

Rishadan Port, yes it stalls and limits your opponents mana, but the ratio is 2 mana is to yours vs 1 mana of your opponent, and instead that you could play more permanents so that smokestack would work on your favor you'll end up limiting your permanent drops. And currently with no mass land destruction card on board in the Angel STAX build its kinda hard to maximize its effect.

Like what i've posted before and like what was pointed out by Goblin Snowman and others that Ghostly Prison only works in multiple and with no draw engine nor library manipulation its kinda hard to have a consistent G.Prison almost every game. I'd rather kill them using powder keg, calatrops or other than stall them and eventually they would overcome a single G.Prison and with no land destruction card at your dissposal its very easy to overcome.

The problem i had when i was playing angel stax, is that you could only relying on smokestack to eat opponents permanent and the process is too slow, and even you have a good lock on your opponent, while waiting for your win condition, he/she could figure away in breaking-out of your lock.

Maybe its just me but, if you can't out drop or limit your opponents permanent drops stomestack is a bad card, and with only 4 mana accelerants its kinda slow or hard to drop permanents all the time even with lock parts cause it sometimes affects you also.

Trinsphere is a superb card in early games but a uless card & other than food for smokestack in mid & late turns bec. your opponent would surely have suffcient mana to overcome its effects bec. currently the only mana limiting effect angel stax uses is smokestack and thats pretty slow....

Lastly with no other way of mass land destruction to maxizime the full effect of trinishphere, tanglewire, & smokestack opponents could wiggle out eventually before your actually kill them with the current win condition.

OT
@Machinus
since you designed both the wildfire and angel stax, what would say is more efficient and have a better chance in getting a win.

Goblin Snowman

09-12-2006, 12:17 PM

Ebs - You're right, relying soly on Smokestack to eat perms is bad. Hence the reason for Wasteland. Also, 3Sphere is still not dead in the midgame. Goblins rarely goes over 5 mana, so they can still only play one spell a turn, and with Port and Wasteland, can deplete their mana even more. I would not play this deck without Wasteland, but Port is a metacall, since Factory is that good against all aggro. For a mass land sweep, I have tried everything from Balencing Act (Wait for them to over extend), Casatrophe (Great and never dead but 6 CC hurts) to simple Geddon. To maximize the effects of these, Ports, Wasteland, and Prison should be played, since prison after Geddon can end the game, and backed up by Port you shouldn't lose. At the lack of draw, your best option is to run Clositer imho. It is the only decent card draw in Artifact, although Urza's Blueprints could be run. Otherwise splash either Blue or Black if you think the manabase can take it. With 3 Cities, 4 Tombs, and 4 Moxen, Smokestack isnt that hard to drop out on turn 2-3, which is when it shines. I've debated adding in 1-2 other mana acclerence, like Talimon of Unity or Mindstone, but I on't think that it's worth it. Also, if you're version can support Chrome Mox, feel free to try a copy or two.

Machinus

09-12-2006, 02:03 PM

ERBS - Some very solid points, however I very much disagree about Smokestack. Let me go into more detail about why.

1) Wrath of God. This card will almost certainly put you ahead on permanents, while simultaneously removing your opponent's clock. Wrath of God supports Smokestack extremely well.

2) Permanent disruption: Tangle Wire, Keg, and Wasteland (+Crucible of Worlds). Individually these cards have a small effect on the board, but together they are a strong disruption mechanism. Again, these cards support Smokestack and make its effect much more powerful.

3) Mana Acceleration: City, Tomb, Mox. You only need half as many lands as your opponent to produce the same amount of mana. Smokestack has a lot of synergy with these cards.

Regarding the two Stax decks: They play differently, and have different strengths. Wildfire is objectively more powerful but also more fragile and less consistent. Angel Stax is a more synergistic deck, but it is less aggressive. I would play the deck that you are more experienced with and that has better matchups against the decks you are facing (the Stax sideboard is something you can customize pretty easily).

fearphage

09-12-2006, 06:42 PM

I am very curious about other people's experiences with the deck. I have played it on and off for a long time now and just wanted to see how it has progressed for others.

Are you playing Winter Orb (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=winter_orb)? I play 3 main deck.
It works well with Ghostly Prison, Tangle Wire, and Trinisphere. It is rarely symmetrical since many of your lands produce 2 mana and it is acceptionally grand when you have 1 or more mox diamond in play. Ghostly prison + orb can stall for a very long time against aggro decks and it makes combo/control pay for tapping out. I searched this thread and found brief mentions of winter orb but no one seems to realize the strength of this card in my opinion.

Are you playing The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=the_tabernacle_at_pendrell_vale)? I really like the synergy with orb and Tangle Wire but the fact that it doesn't produce mana really hurts.

Are of you playing Tangle Wire (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=tangle_wire)? I have tried this main deck many times and I've currently come to 3 residing in the sideboard. I may remove it completely. I am rarely happy to see this card. It never works out the way I plan. Unless Winter Orb + prison/tabernacle are in play, I found the effect on the game state is minimal.

Are you playing Suppression Field (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=suppression_field)? Sometimes it performs miraclous feats and other times I'd have done better drawing my 2nd trinisphere. I eventually migrated it out of the sideboard even. It is very situational. If its not in the opening hand, its not as strong of a lock piece. It can only regain usefulness after smokestack eats some lands. The situational nature of the card made it too risky for me.

Machinus

09-12-2006, 08:15 PM

As I have said often in this thread, the discussion you are looking for has been publicly available for a year now on SCG (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/articlefinder.php?PHPSESSID=4d3b7a36825b0c0a9deb3d1140b5eea2&keyword=coppola).

_erbs_

09-12-2006, 09:16 PM

@Goblin Snowman
I didn't suggest not using wasteland on a legacy stax but not a full set of 4, i just feel 3 is the right number. Yup like what i've said a single g.prison would be good enough if angel stax uses Armageddon but it doesn't and i doubt if it could find a space in the current decklist.

Yes i've used bottled cloister it work well and good since angel stax had no instant spells, but the deployment of permanents is just too slow, thats why i've aslo like the idea in adding additional mana accelerants but in the white variant of legacy stax it so hard to fit in.

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@Machinus
Yup, i agree on what you've said that wrath of god helps smokestack very well in creature based decks which is like 80% of legacy decks, but i still feel thats insufficient, even if we cut-off there creatures they still have the resources even under trinisphere and smokestack its easy to re-cast 2 to 3, back to square 1 again.

City is good but the problem with it is it blows up and you loss the speed and addtional mana it gives where as other mana accelerants dont.

I currently using a modified wildfire stax with 10~11 mana accelrants with uba mask, i dropped CoV,keg, & pyroclasm, so far it has a very possitive result over compared to Angel Stax. I know they play differently but i feel that it still boils down to that its a STAX deck, that has a hard time showing itself on the legacy radar. Decks i've come across with during my play testing on wildfire stax are (solidarity, r/g burn sligh, green land & artifact hate, typical mono balk creature/ discard, white winnie, U/G madness, r/g survival, & salaveger)

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@fearphage
Thats a nice idea using winter orb + g.prison, winter orb never entered my mind when i was playing angel stax hehe. It would really stall opponents long enough, but if you just depend on city + a.tomb + moxD for mana acceleration i feel its insufficinet.

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is also a good but i doubt if i'd be using 2 or more of it.

For me since you have winter orb you'd feel the full use of tanglewire cause it setups your opponent for a perfect winter orb drop.

Like what was in the previous posts suppression field is a very very good card in legacy stax

Maybe you could post a decklist of what your current angel stax looks like

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know this is kinda off topic

@all legacy stax player
do you think that angel stax is the most successfull legacy stax currently ?, since there are no other threads here that discusses legacy stax this is the only active thread in regards with legacy stax.

i've tried 2 versions of legacy stax, angel & wildfire, and i preffer wildfire stax over agnel stax, which are both created by machinus i jsut did some modifications

Goblin Snowman

09-13-2006, 12:21 PM

I have't played Wildfire Stax against a solid testing Gantlent, so I can't say. Right now, Braids Stax is kinda up, have Abyss but Still need 2 Nether Voids. Has anyone considered what Mishra might do to stax? 4/4 with a crazy ablity which auotwins in the permantent race, in addition to getting crazy stuff, might end up with a BUR Stax based around him. Right now, I'musing 5/3 since we have 35 minute rounds (0-1-0 ftl), and I draw around 1/3 of the time, which annoys the shit out of me. I'm going to stand by 4 Wasteland is the correct number. It gives you a nice, oops, I win, feeling against half the meta with a Lock Piece down. If someone can rebuild after you Wrath away 3-4 Creatures, have a Trinisphere and Smokestack down, sothing very wrong is happening. They likely played out their hand, meaning that they can drop MAYBE 1 perm a turn, based on what they top.

emidln

09-13-2006, 12:27 PM

I think that UbaStax is the most "successful" Stax deck in Legacy with its performance at Legacy Champs, but that isn't saying much. No Stax deck has top8'd a major tournament. Angel Stax is probably the most played Stax deck, but a lot of Stax players seem to enjoy tweaking their own variations.

_erbs_

09-14-2006, 12:31 AM

@Goblin Snowman
I guess wasteland is a meta call, I haven't tried nor seen Braid STAX. It could be possible that sometime in the future Mishra would be used in legacy STAX, but having b/u/r colors would surely cause problems in your mana base and could slow down your permanent drops due to the fact that your lands could be targeted by wasteland.

If your having problem with the time you could win a match try using wildfire stax, you'll surely feel the difference in the speed you win. I've also had problems with angel stax in the time i could win my games. Thats why i switched to wildfire stax.

Sometimes 1-2 creatures armed with some sort of dmg enchancing artifact or enchantment could force you to cast warth of god to stop the bleeding, thats why they could easly re-cast permanents to attack you, im sure all your lock pieces can't be there all together everytime.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
@emidln
I haven't seen an Uba Leagcy Stax deck, so i wouldn't know how it fairs with the different legacy stax deck i've played. So far wildfire stax is my choice over angel stax, blue stax, & welder stax.

I've tried using 3 uba mask in my wildfire deck, it work wonders, but i still haven't decided if i'll drop them or retain them, even with no smokestack after a resolved wildfire uba mask is terrific!!.

Angel Stax could be the most popular legacy stax build out there but, i have doubts about its consistency and performace. Yes white offer a wide varaity of good synergy cards for STAX like suppression field, etc. but i can't find a way to make the legacy stax some what a 2-5 colored stax deck due to the fact that you'll be very vulnarable to wasteland and having the problem of mana screw.

I believe that a stax deck should be very a consistent one.

OT
So far I don't have any problems winning game 1 in my wildfire stax deck, but when SB comes thats where im having a hard time, thats why im still convinced that Legacy STAX could still be much better than this.

hugh1130

09-15-2006, 09:07 PM

hey guys so, over the past week or so i have been testing this deck and fell in love with it, enough so i am begging to purchase the peices to create the deck. As i am putting the deck together i have made some changes to the list and was looking for imput on it..... and befor i post the list and breif explinations i want to say that my metagame likes its agro ... alot, and even more to the fact that there is virutally no combo in the sense of competitive type 1.5.. so on to the deck

3x exalted angels
4x wrath of god
4x ghostly prison
4x swords to plow share

4x smokestack
4x tangle wire
4x trinisphere
4x chalice of the void
3x crucible of worlds

4x mishras factory
4x chrome mox
3x flooded strand
4x ancient tomb
2x city of traitors
3x wasteland
6x plains

card choices

1. Chromemox over mox diamond for a number of reasons first being
mox diamond is $20 and Chrom is ~10
i can just lay chrome mox down with out an imprint in a pinch for some permenants to keep a smoke stack around

and finally the most imporants reason.... a set a mox diamond is 80$ and i still have my play set of moxes from my ons/mir sligh experiment.

2. Ghostly prisons and swords, well firstly both are in there to up my white card count for chrome moxand secondly with a overwheming predominece of agro in my meta they rarely are useless cards

3. the 4/2 ancients tomb split... simple... i own zero tombs and zero cities... the tombs cost literally half the price of the cities....

so.... looking for tips on helping the list, and some more palces i could find infor on how to more effectively play the deck ( both the posts on angel stacks and wildfire stacks on TMD were great and ansuiens thingy on stacks) and i do want to say, i am not playing in any tournments any time soon so this doesnt have to be an optimum list, just a passable one.

_erbs_

09-16-2006, 01:55 AM

hugh1130

09-16-2006, 05:29 PM

@hugh1130
I don't like chrome mox, im sure you've placed them for addtional mana boost not food for smokestack, the imprint hurts alot, especially in a prison deck with no library manipulation or draw engine to replace the lost card. If you want try using a proxy 1st before you decide to buy all the parts. Mox Diamond is the way to go, plus your lands are recyclable bec. of Crusible so your not wasting anything.

Try removing your fetch lands and add 2 more city of traitors for added boost in mana. And if you could put in Winter Orb it would be an awesome combo with ghostly prison keeping your opponents creatures at bay.

If you could also add Suppression Field it would be great, aswell. Chalice of the void & Trinisphere + STP doesn't work well together normally you call CoV at 1 and that gives you automatically 4 dead cards in your deck, Under trinisphere your 1 casting cost STP goes up to 3, I think the winter orb + ghostly prision could work much better for creature control. And once you could resolve a wrath of god, smokestack's clock will surely go faster in eating up your opponents permanents. I know you've placed them for early or 1st turn threats, I've also used STP before but it didn't work well with other lock components thats why I removed them eventually.

if chrome mox is even just passable for mox diamonds i will play because i really dont want to have to spend 80$ for a set of mox diamonds and the chromes are free( well the cost any money now)

StP have been swtiched off and on with armageddon, i was leaning towards the STP cause even at 3 mana its useful in a number of palces, the only bad thing is chalice at 1.... and i think armageddon would be more useful then winters orb with crucible.

i thoght of supression feild but i havent tested it casue i love my factories and them two dont jive well together.

mabye ill go to three mox for a 3rd city of traitors to lessen the chanc ei will need to double imprint for mana and to give me a similar boost.

edit

i have been throughing around an idea of a Blue stax using reins of power as a sorta wrath /w smokestscksand jus other fun stuff and then propaganda as ghostly prison.... you get to play stifle and force and Fof/TfK and i like this one... chain of vapor... has anyone tried this in any serious context?

Goblin Snowman

09-16-2006, 09:03 PM

if chrome mox is even just passable for mox diamonds i will play because i really dont want to have to spend 80$ for a set of mox diamonds and the chromes are free( well the cost any money now)

Mox Diamond is like $12 on Ebay last I looked, just picked up my last one a week ago. But yeah, it's a ok replacement.

[QUOTE=hugh1130;90450]StP have been swtiched off and on with armageddon, i was leaning towards the STP cause even at 3 mana its useful in a number of palces, the only bad thing is chalice at 1.... and i think armageddon would be more useful then winters orb with crucible.

Over Swords, I would run either Wing Shards, Moat, Humility, or even Ghostly Prison. You will pay 3 for it 1/2 the time anyway.

i thoght of supression feild but i havent tested it casue i love my factories and them two dont jive well together.

Yeah, it's like me boarding in CoP Red and Suppression Field. Or having 3 of the out against Tog and paying 12 Mana to activate and Pump Factory. As powerful as it is, it shuts off Port, hurts Wasteland and Factory, and generally messes with your lands too much. I board them for spacific matches.

mabye ill go to three mox for a 3rd city of traitors to lessen the chanc ei will need to double imprint for mana and to give me a similar boost.

I went down to less than 3 Cities for a while, and trust me, 4 Mox and 7 2 mana lands is what the deck wants.

i have been throughing around an idea of a Blue stax using reins of power as a sorta wrath /w smokestscksand jus other fun stuff and then propaganda as ghostly prison.... you get to play stifle and force and Fof/TfK and i like this one... chain of vapor... has anyone tried this in any serious context?

I have. I have a list I actully PMed Erbs about a little bit ago, but I hadn't considered Reins. I think they would be better in the Board against Goblins though. If you want me to post my list, tell me.

hugh1130

09-16-2006, 09:22 PM

please PM away[the blue list]

i keep flip flopping on armegeddon/swords often both are just mox fodder, armeggedon only seems relevent when i am either winning or crucible is out..... the both seem very narrow in this deck.. often i want to armageddon awway my oppents 3-5 lands when i have 5-6 and i dont like the card

perhaps castasotrophe so it isnt so narrow...

Goblin Snowman

09-16-2006, 11:24 PM

I'll just put it up for everyone to see. Without further Ado

4x Armageddon
3x Ravages of War (portal 'geddon)
4x Propoganda
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible of Worlds
4x Trinisphere
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Eternal Dragon (recovers after Land Sweeper)

2x Chrome Mox (gets around geddon, could be TFK or FoF)
4x Rishadan Port
3x Wasteland
1x Plains (screw you wasteland)
3x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Mox Diamond

Trys to keep the good Combo Matchups, makes the control matches far better, and still can beat aggro. Board could be Wrath, Winter Orbs, 1x more Cotv, Sphere of Resistence, you decide.

hugh1130

09-17-2006, 12:54 AM

if your playing 7 armageddon effects, the first thing id play is 4 crucibles

jazzykat

09-17-2006, 12:56 AM

OK, now lets get really crazy, maybe we can make a RW version with armageddons and wildfires!

_erbs_

09-17-2006, 01:38 AM

@Goblin Snowman
I got your pm and i'll test it first and see what happens, i see you've made several changes on it, i'll try to modify it abit aswell and tell you about it.

I still do know how fast the current deck posted could win, but seeing it im guessing it would be slow. But I don't want to jump to coclussions, I'll still give it try and see what happens.

But bottom line is no matter how strong or good your lock is if you have don't manage to get a W but instead a DRAW it simply means its not a tornament deck. Thats my biggest problem in playing Legacy STAX, but when i tried using wildfire stax my win clock has gotten faster and i could say no offense on the creator of angel stax, sorry if its off topic, but wildfire stax out performs angel stax, almost all payers that i come to play with had told me that wildfire stax is much better than angel stax, and since im the only player atleast in where i play in that uses legacy stax tells me that, looks like legacy stax is about to rear its head on tornament headline as a deck to be recon with.

@hugh1130
Like what i've posted above, the current angel stax doesn't run geddons thus still leaving your opponent lands to get around your lock, due to the slow clock of smokestack.

Yes STP still do a decent job even with 3cc but i'll rather use CoV for 1 on my 1st turn than use my STP

@jazzykat
how i wish it could work hehehe :laugh: but in a lock deck that doesn't have any draw engines nor uses a library manipulating cards, i don't want ot add mana screws and inssuficient manas to cast spells bec of lands beign wasted. But its still a nice possibility though hehe :lol:

---------------------------------------------------
Aramgeddon + smokestack or trinishphere is devastating and could always mean auto win for the person who could use the effect it his/her own advantage.

In order to do that it means that your source of mana is not affected by geddon like mana artifacts or mana creatures. But if you don't have any mana to support you, you'll just end up beign pinned by your geddon aswell.

Machinus

09-17-2006, 01:54 AM

But bottom line is no matter how strong or good your lock is if you have don't manage to get a W but instead a DRAW it simply means its not a tornament deck. Thats my biggest problem in playing Legacy STAX, but when i tried using wildfire stax my win clock has gotten faster and i could say no offense on the creator of angel stax, sorry if its off topic, but wildfire stax out performs angel stax, almost all payers that i come to play with had told me that wildfire stax is much better than angel stax, and since im the only player atleast in where i play in that uses legacy stax tells me that, looks like legacy stax is about to rear its head on tornament headline as a deck to be recon with.

They have different strengths and weaknesses. Who do you think created Wildfire Stax?

_erbs_

09-17-2006, 08:46 AM

Who do you think created Wildfire Stax?

You :laugh: ,

If you could see almost all my posts with regards to wildfire stax i've always attached your name in it, maybe its on my playing style thats why I'm leaning towards wildfire stax.

I know they have different strengths cause I've used Angel Stax for a long time, before i found out about wildfire stax, I didn't know if you got my PM but I've modified your build, and so far its been doing well. I know it still needs a few adjustments but nobody seems to be interested about it. So I'll have to do all the tweaking by myself.

hugh1130

09-18-2006, 08:14 AM

You :laugh: ,

If you could see almost all my posts with regards to wildfire stax i've always attached your name in it, maybe its on my playing style thats why I'm leaning towards wildfire stax.

I know they have different strengths cause I've used Angel Stax for a long time, before i found out about wildfire stax, I didn't know if you got my PM but I've modified your build, and so far its been doing well. I know it still needs a few adjustments but nobody seems to be interested about it. So I'll have to do all the tweaking by myself.

so for general agro smashing, using chrome mox over mox diamond, wildfire or angel stax is better?

Goblin Snowman

09-18-2006, 12:23 PM

Wildfire excels at crushing Random Aggro. Think of it as Rifter, except it can beat Combo, and has worse game against Goblins (just from my testing). I mirror several of the best parts of the deck in my build with massive Landsweepers.

Machinus

09-18-2006, 01:46 PM

It's debatable which deck has a better aggro game.

Angel Stax has cheaper maindeck disruption and is more consistent overall. Wildfire is more powerful, but is more vulernable to disruption. It depends on what you will be playing against: mana denial, hand disruption, permission, etc. They all change the dynamics of the game.

Bane of the Living

09-18-2006, 06:40 PM

Machinus are you posting Wildfire Stax here at all? Id like to start discussion on it but not in the Angel Stax thread.

_erbs_

09-18-2006, 07:17 PM

@hugh1130
I can't give a fair comment, since angel stax didn't didn't perform atleast to my expectations during my play testing stage around 2-3 months or so. But on my play testing stage i never thought of the ghostly prison + winter orb combo which i think would be great for angel stax which could really buy you alot of time.

For me wildfire stax out perform angel stax by a margin. And like what the creator of both decks had said they have different strenghts and weakness. But what the creator AKA - machinus had said that angel stax is more consistent its just me but for me its the other way around. And with regards to permission & discarding, angel stax is more valnarauble between the 2, cuase ounce i could resolve a 3rd or 4th turn wildfire with a trinisphere or CoV in play its almost game over for the opponent. The wildfire deck i'm currently playing really excels under trinisphere and has a fast recovery time for mana.

But what kicks my butt always is a 1st turn silver knight or any pro red critters then a 2nd turn imperyal armor, not jittes or sofi, if it where them could could deal with them atleast, but enchanments kills the deck. And when i couldn't draw any wildfire and smokestack its a sure game over for me.

@Machinus
It would be great if you could start a thread here with regards to wildfire stax.

Goblin Snowman

09-18-2006, 08:36 PM

Right now I'm thinking of creating a thread based solely for people to post rogue Stax lists, since right now there are a large number of decfks in here (mine included) that have little or nothing to do with Angel Stax. Yay or nay?

Machinus

09-18-2006, 09:33 PM

Having two threads really dilutes the discussion. There is already a good Wildfire Stax (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30039.0) thread. Feel free to add your discussion there.

hugh1130

09-18-2006, 11:17 PM

how about static orb instead of winters orb

they both cost two, but static does a bit more.... it makes tangle wire as a hole alot more.. tangleing...... works very well with the 2 mana lands and gives a solid semi-soft lock with trinisphere ( 2 spells per three turns maximum) and also keeps creatues off you with ghostly( if the untap 2 they cant untap the creature)

when its covneint you can alwasy smoke stack it away i guess and tap it with tangle wire in a pinch.

_erbs_

09-19-2006, 01:37 AM

Having two threads really dilutes the discussion. There is already a good Wildfire Stax (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30039.0) thread. Feel free to add your discussion there.

Waa!!, I can't post at that forum I don't know why, I've already pmed one of the mods and he told me to wait but its been 2 week or so , I still can't post in it.

Maybe you could update the current angel stax Machinus, i think winter orb is a very good addition for angel stax.

Hmm..., i guess having a wildfire stax in here wouldn't hurt since they both have different strenghts and weakness also how you deal with your opponent i find the 2 have totally different playing styles.

But with paradox haze about to come out, im sure it would be a nice addition to legacy stax maybe angel stax could use it, but i feel it wouldn't help wildfire stax though due to lack of space.

hugh1130

09-20-2006, 10:33 PM

i am gonna start testing this list, i guess it is sort of angel stompy trying for the best trasnaltion of white-> blue

3x Quicksliver dragon ( mabye morphling or that new 8/8 for 3 with suspend behemoth)
4x reins of power
3x paradox haze
3x propaganda
3x fact or fiction
-16-
4x smokestack
4x tangle wire
4x chalice of the void
3x crucible of words
4x trinisphere
-19-

4x chromemox
4x ancient tomb
2x city of traitors
4x mishras factory
2x flooded plains
3x wasteland
6x island

ill elt you knwo how it turns out, mabye some one else could help me test

fearphage

09-21-2006, 07:02 AM

@ hugh1130 - I too thought of the effects of Paradox Haze with lock components. Propaganda should definitely be a 4-of. I think that should be reserved for another thread as that is not Angel Stax.

@ Machinus - In one of your articles, you said Winter Orb was only good for control and combo matchups, where this deck already excelled. Yet, if I recall correctly, in that same article you had 3 Defense Grid in the board. I don't understand that logic. Please explain. Do you still play 4 maindeck Suppression Fields? I found them to be too situational for my taste.

hugh1130

09-21-2006, 08:20 AM

@ hugh1130 - I too thought of the effects of Paradox Haze with lock components. Propaganda should definitely be a 4-of. I think that should be reserved for another thread as that is not Angel Stax.

befor i or anyone else makes a thread for it i think we should do some testing on it, thought and conflicts that came to me over the night that i think need to be adressed in rhetoric befor we can really test a build that is rometely optimal

differnece between propaganda and ghostly prison.... propaganda makes you pay to attack as well, this is generally bad.. and with out a true wrath like effect to answer threats, you kinda of need 4 of them

reins of power isnt wrath of god, although its close in terms of how it effect permant count applicaple to smokestack and tangle wire, it still doesnt deal with threats without smokestack

we dont have the spirit link effect of the angel, this mean we are often behind in the life battle even when we are contorlling boar postion and tempo... this might lead to unnesseary turn arounds of the game.

Syco_Tr0pic

09-21-2006, 09:21 AM

differnece between propaganda and ghostly prison.... propaganda makes you pay to attack as well, this is generally bad.. and with out a true wrath like effect to answer threats, you kinda of need 4 of them

No, it doesn't. Propaganda has the same text as Ghostly Prison, just the opponent is forced to pay to attack.
Yet, I think your other points are valid: I don't exactly love Reins of Power in Stax given how situational it is, and I think the blue and/or artifact options for a kill condition are pretty lame (just check the Tide Stax thread to se how the discussion went downhill when trying to figure out a good win condition). Nothing beats good ol' Exalted.
Still, I think blue should be considered just because of the sheer power Paradox Haze seems to bring to this kind of deck and, of course some possibility of redundance (if it is needed at all) in Propaganda [and land destruction in Parallax Tide + Stifle, and maybe a draw engine in Thirst for Knowlege and Ancestral Vision (wich can be "played" under a Trini) and...].
Yes... The bracketed part was a joke (just to make it crystal clear). Sigh in relief, Angel Stax fans.

fearphage

09-21-2006, 01:10 PM

Has anyone considered/tested Armageddon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=armageddon)? It seems like it would me a strong late game play (2-3 of). It itself is a threat but it also solidifies the other lock components. Although it almost requires the setup of a crucible, it would make Trinisphere and Ghostly Prison much more potent late game. I don't consider this win-more since it addresses a very pressing issue. In most builds, Wrath and Smokestack are the only removal. A late game Smokestack is not really all that stellar without wiping the entire board really. After the opponent is at 4-5 lands, things like Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere become speed bumps more than lock pieces. A 10th turn Smokestack is a threat but they have a few more turns before it gets bad for them. I think Armageddon and the likes should be tested. I will be.

Are there any colorless or other instant kill combos (preferrably not threatened by needle) that stax can run? I was reviewing some of the flame vault stax threads and the ability to 'just win' is strong. UR Flamevault also showed that stax could support multiple colors but thus far, almost all stax decks have been mono-colored. I believe white-blue or white-black show some merit but with Ancient Tombs as a 4-of, Angel is one of the strongest creature kills. The pseudo-stack (Braids (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=braids,_cabal_minion)) is also a strong addition.

Goblin Snowman

09-21-2006, 03:00 PM

Yes, I have played with Armageddon, and it is great in the right version. With a Prison or Propoganda, you should win after an armageddon. Ditto against Control with Trinisphere.

quicksilver

09-21-2006, 04:12 PM

seems like
Flagstones of Trokair
Legendary Land
T: Add W to your mana pool.
When Flagstones of Trokair is put into a graveyard from play, you may search your library for a plains card and put it into play tapped. If you do, shuffle your library afterwards.

will be very good. It has obvious synergy with smokestack and armedegon, with little to no drawback.

jazzykat

09-21-2006, 06:01 PM

Now for the stupid people like myself, can you have one in play, tap it for mana then play another one sending that one to the graveyard to fetch a plains as well as the one that came into play? It would be like missing a land drop of sorts but you could still take it, is that correct? Also could these partially replace fetches?

Machinus

09-21-2006, 08:37 PM

It would require some modification of the manabase, but yes it it could be good in Angel Stax.

fearphage

09-21-2006, 09:07 PM

@ Machinus - A lot was said since your last post. What is it referring to?

Machinus

09-21-2006, 09:32 PM

There is a new legendary land that makes white mana. It generates +1 permanent advantage when it is destroyed.

hugh1130

09-21-2006, 10:36 PM

i think it is a 3 of, not the card you want to draw 2 of in the first 3-5 turn but 2 over the coarse of the game is not bad.

jazzykat

09-22-2006, 02:26 AM

I play in an underdeveloped metagame where the only decks I have to really worry about are 1 or 2 goblin decks and maybe a threshold deck. I already have tivadar's crusade in my SB to act as raths 5-8 but I was wondering if using culling scales vs. goblins (removing chalice of course, so this looks to be a sideboard option) would systematically rape them. I realize it wouldn't nuke their lands but it would take out a vial, lackey, fanatic, piledriver, up to matron a turn. Or are you seriously losing if they have the mana for matron already.

There are also some slow control decks astral slide types and an MBC with deed splash that are piloted by competent players. It seems that angel stax should generate a sufficient slowing them down since they are slow decks already. Any observations thoughts or comments?

Thanks,
JK

stompy

09-22-2006, 07:43 AM

Restore Balance
Sorcery
Restore Balance is white.
Suspend 6 -
Except the player who controls the fewest lands each player sacrifices lands until all players control the same number of lands as the player who controls the fewest. Players discard cards in the same way, then sacrifice creatures in the same way.

This looks as though it might have some game with Angel Stax. Seeing as we topdeck like fiends, not! It can set us up for a couple of turns. Giving us an upper hand on creature control too.
Our game is a waiting game anyway, so why not put our opponents on the same clock. I see Madness getting a boost though. Thoughts?

(I don't know about anyone else, but I sure feel like Wizards is doing their darndest to make Standard play alot like the eternal formats.)

Tividar's seems very narrow. If you see lots of gobs in the meta, then yeah it makes for mean plays, whereas the early Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere combo without the double white cost is a bit better. It would not be fantastic to have a hand of multiple copies of Tividar's AND Wrath early.

hugh1130

09-22-2006, 08:10 AM

6 turn suspend makes it kind of unweildy from the top deck no matter

i dislike the U version greatly and dismiss my build as a mistake in general

now of to test W/U version that i probably should have started with

4x Exhalted Angel
4x WoG
3x paradox haze
4x Ghostly Prison
2x propaganda
-17-
4x smokestack
4x tangle wire
4x chalice of the void
3x crucible of words
3x trinisphere
-18-

4x chromemox
4x ancient tomb
2x city of traitors
4x mishras factory
2x flooded plains
3x wasteland
4x tundra
2x of the new weird land from timesprial if the can fetch tundra

lets hope this works

fearphage

09-22-2006, 12:30 PM

To reiterate:

@ Machinus - In one of your articles, you said Winter Orb was only good for control and combo matchups, where this deck already excelled. Yet, if I recall correctly, in that same article you had 3 Defense Grid in the board. I don't understand that logic. Please explain. Do you still play 4 maindeck Suppression Fields? I found them to be too situational for my taste.

Yea, Paradox Haze and Propaganda are the only things blue has to offer (besides possibly Transmute Artifact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=transmute_artifact)). Oh, and there's always Stasis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=stasis).

@ hugh1130 - Why not 4 Trinisphere? I know they suck in doubles but they are they best opening play you can make. Also no basics seems like a mistake. I do like the split of propaganda and prisons but thats now 10 dead cards in the combo matchup.

keeping with the UW aspect, did you catch this one:

Academy Ruins
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
1U, T: Put target artifact card in your graveyard on the top of your library.
#269/301
---------------
This is a post from yesterday that I never submitted:

This is currently my mana base:
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port (Mishra's Factory?)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

Those could go one to one with maybe 2 plains at most but I'm not sure its worth the extra waste targets. (But I guess they just turn into Plains). I don't Know. They are worth testing but 4 is definitely too many.

Bane of the Living

09-22-2006, 01:23 PM

To reiterate:
Yea, Paradox Haze and Propaganda are the only things blue has to offer (besides possibly Transmute Artifact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=transmute_artifact)). Oh, and there's always Stasis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=stasis).

Blue has Parralax Tide. Its the reason Ive been playing Blue Stax. It makes Propaganda, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Trinisphere all twice as good. You should give it a try. The double blue makes it kinda mono U restricted but its so worth the commitment. My blue stax list (Tide Stax) is in the N&D forum.

Machinus

09-22-2006, 04:56 PM

Grid is way better against control than Worb is, and it also has an immediate effect on the game. Grid is narrower and stronger, which is why it's in the board. Worb isn't strong enough at any one thing to make it anywhere in the deck.

Bane of the Living

09-22-2006, 05:02 PM

Grid is also another super scooper against Solidarity! Take that islands! Its a 4 of in my board.

hugh1130

09-22-2006, 06:48 PM

@ hugh1130 - Why not 4 Trinisphere? I know they suck in doubles but they are they best opening play you can make. Also no basics seems like a mistake. I do like the split of propaganda and prisons but thats now 10 dead cards in the combo matchup.

keeping with the UW aspect, did you catch this one:

3 trinisphere cause i needed 1 more card to cut and it got the chop

combo isnt non exsistance in my meta, it is all agro all the time around here.

Proz0r

09-22-2006, 08:30 PM

This is my current list of GeddonStax:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
6 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Ravages of War
3 Armageddon
1 Smokestack

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
3 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
4 Disenchant/Pithing Needle/Leyline of the Void/other

I found only 4 WoG and 4 Ghostly Prison not enough to combat aggro. With your lists I also often had problems with finding WW to cast WoG. I also found Tangle Wire too weak in the aggro matchup, for example vs goblins. You also can't race them with Smokestack because it is too slow and they sometimes even have more permanents. This is why I chose to play Tabernacle, which helps with the mana disruption, makes elves, BoPs and Werebears not netting any mana advantage , and which is also insane vs goblins. Casting an Armageddon and then playing a Tabernacle is also often gg. The Swords are in here because they are good when you are on the draw, so you can avoid early beats. They also remove Werebear and Meddling Mage. The synergy with a Chalice on 1 of course isn't that good, but this makes you have only 4 dead cards. I'm still not sure if the 4 Factories are enough of a clock, but not having any Angels maindeck makes you able to play more real threats.

I find this deck to be better overall. The worse matchups are Faerie Stompy and BW Suicide, but goblins and gro are both favorable pre and post board.

fearphage

09-22-2006, 09:48 PM

Grid is also another super scooper against Solidarity
Even with all the anti-combo stuff in the deck, Solidarity wishes for Rebuild (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=rebuild) on its turn and bounces your stuff at EOT or on their turn. Then they respond to you replaying them by comboming out. It slows them down but without Angel or Smokestack its a softlock that they can wait forever for. Thats why I play Glowrider (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=glowrider) in the board. Its puny but it is a clock (be it 10 turns) and it isn't an aritifact. I'm sure the 'one spell per turn' enchantments would be an alternative although they don't present a clock.

Bane of the Living

09-23-2006, 09:23 AM

Even with all the anti-combo stuff in the deck, Solidarity wishes for Rebuild (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=rebuild) on its turn and bounces your stuff at EOT or on their turn. Then they respond to you replaying them by comboming out. It slows them down but without Angel or Smokestack its a softlock that they can wait forever for. Thats why I play Glowrider (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=glowrider) in the board. Its puny but it is a clock (be it 10 turns) and it isn't an aritifact. I'm sure the 'one spell per turn' enchantments would be an alternative although they don't present a clock.

aRE YOU SERIOUS??!11!

Your playing something besides Grid tho right? Like Tangle Wire, Chalice? Maybe Trinisphere or an early Smokestack? Solidarity is an awsome matchup for me, regardless of Rebuild. Just mull a hand with anti creature shit in it, go for the anti combo cards.

fearphage

09-24-2006, 02:14 PM

I'm not talking about mid-combo. I mean pre-combo, they wish for rebuild during there main phase. Then either they play it during their main phase with reset mana open so they can combo in response to you replaying Chalice/Trinisphere/etc. So the only means of winning is to mulligan into a hand with an early smokestack or artifact + creature/enchantment threats.

bigbear102

09-24-2006, 09:16 PM

Seems like Thunder Totem could be some good in the Geddon Version, it's not a land and it dodges a lot of removal, and it's a clock.

Or

Chronotog Totem in the U version. It lets you rape them with Stack. It's never dead cuz it produces mana, and can randomly win you the game after setting Stack at 2 or 3 and skipping a turn.

hugh1130

09-25-2006, 07:39 AM

fearphage

09-25-2006, 11:28 AM

For reference:

Academy Ruins
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool
1U, T: Put target artifact card in your graveyard on the top of your library.

Assembly-Worker -- 3
Artifact Creature - Assembly-Worker
T: Target Assembly-Worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

Chronatog Totem -- 3
T: Add U to your mana pool.
1U: Chronatog Totem becomes a 1/2 blue Atog artifact creature until end of turn.
0: Chronatog Totem gets +3/+3 until end of turn. You skip your next turn. Play this ability only once each turn and only if Chronatog Totem is a creature.

Flagstones of Trokair
Legendary Land
T: Add W to your mana pool.
When Flagstones of Trokair is put into a graveyard from play, you may search your library for a plains card and put it into play tapped. If you do, shuffle your library afterwards.

Paradox Haze -- 2U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
At the beginning of enchanted player's first upkeep each turn, that player gets an additional upkeep step after this step.

Thunder Totem -- 3
Artifact
T: Add W to your mana pool.
1WW: Thunder Totem becomes a 2/2 white Spirit artifact creature with flying and first strike until end of turn.
Thunder Totem + Flagstones of Trokair would be strong when played in the Armageddon version (in the context of recovering from Armageddon). My only problem with the totems is that wotc printed Pithing Needle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=pithing_needle). This would stall your offense until you got a Smokestack or Powder Keg online. This is not optimal. 4 Mishra's Factory + 4 Assembly-Worker could mount a decent offense but this is also affected by Pithing Needle. Are there any good, 4-5 turn clock, non-creature kills for the Armageddon version?

i want to say chronotog totem is stricly worse in terms of interatction with smoke stack then psychic haze is
I assume you were referring to Paradox Haze (above)? I searched gatherer and found no other relevant Haze cards. If so, I would agree 110%. Resilience to needle and Null Rod (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=null_rod) is key.

Someone should start a new thread for Rogue/General Stax chat so we don't clutter this ANGEL stax thread up too much more. I would but I'm at work and lazy. Maybe tonight if no one else has.

quicksilver

09-25-2006, 11:51 AM

There are already like 50,000 stax threads on these forums. I'm sure you could find one of those threads that has what you are looking for.

Goblin Snowman

09-25-2006, 03:06 PM

Actully no. There are (were) Tide, Uba, Wildfire recently, if a few weeks ago is recent. Why aren't you yelling at the 5-6 WUB Fish lists fyling around, but at Stax.

@ Fearphage - When I get home from school, I'll make a Rogue Stax thread in N/D if no one slse does. I already asked if I should, at the start of the page, and no one responded.

ACME_Myst

09-25-2006, 06:19 PM

back on the topic of angel stax, i've piloted this list to 3rd place at a 'local' (if a 3 hour train ride is local :p) tournament last sunday:

//land (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
6 Plains
1 Ancient Den
1 Maze of Ith
2 Windswept Heath

//more mana (3)
3 Mox Diamond

//Stuff (22)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds

//Removal (6)
3 Wrath of God
3 Powder Keg

//Utility (1)
1 Enlightened Tutor

//Win (6)
3 Exalted Angel
1 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Jester's Cap

//SB (15)
2 Suppression Field
3 CoP: Red
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jester's Cap
1 Rule of Law
3 Defense Grid
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Hanna's Custody

Due to crappyness, i couldn't get the SB I'd planned, but i guess this worked out. I expected some combo, hence the MD caps. They turned out to be very useless though, since there where exactly 0 combo decks at the tourney.

For those interested, here what happened:

Round 1 vs Satanic Sligh
Game 1: He gets beats on with early genju of the spires, i recover with prison + wire, then get stack + curcible out. he scoops.

Game 2: i board in CoPs, Hanna's Custody, Seals. Out go wogs, caps, 1 wire. He gets beats, i get turn 2 CoP. My life total goes down from tomb and his FotBH. I dont draw business, he manages to kill me with non-preventable stuff.

Game 3: I get eraly soft lock on with 3sphere, chalice, crucible + CoP. I cant seem to find smokestack, his hand is cluctched with 1 mana spells he can't play. My lifetotal goes down a bit by tombs, so im at 6 life when i finally resolve smokestack. He had been throwing stuff at my chalice to get hellbent for demonfire. He then figured he had to either draw a land or FotBH to be able to win since my stack would come online next turn. He reveiled flames from the top of his deck. I lose to demonfire. Nice start :D.

0-1 (0 pts)

Round 2 vs Reanimator
not much notes on this one, i believe it went something like this:
Game 1: I lose to early Angel of Despair.
Game 2: Board in crypt's and seals. I get early lock on. He scoops.
Game 3: He gets early akroma, i get maze. I play some softlock, followed by wog. He reanimates another akroma, taking his lifetotal down a lot. i wog again, play angel, beat ftw.

1-1 (3 pts)

Round 3 vs Br Sui
This whas vs the guy i came to the tourney with. We figured we'd play some for fun then ID. I know, this isnt really constructive for the discussion of this deck. I do know from testing that the matchup is very much in my favor.

1-1-1 (4 pts)

Round 4 vs Mono U Shadow ( ? )
Game 1: He plays some critters, i get lock on. He scoops.
Game 2: I didnt have much usefull to board, i guess he boarded in the counters. He counters some lock part while i sit on zero W with double wog in hand. I lost.
Game 3: I board in my defense grids. I get turn 1 grid, then lockparts.

2-1-1 (7 pts)

Round 5 vs Vial Goblins
I knew this would become a rather hard matchup, even before he won the die roll.
Game 1: He goes turn 1 vial, then does some broken stuff with lackey. I keep him down a bit but dont get prison (he only had 1 wasteland in play). I had 3 active tanglewires in play but at my EOT, he vials in a second SGC, taps out tokens and gives piley beats ftw.

Game 2: i side in CoPs, sub-fields + custody. I WoG a bit, then get lock on. he decides to scoop.

Game 3: He gets early creatures + vial, i get keg, i wipe the board, then play lockparts. He picks up his cards when angel hits the table.

3-1-1 (10 pts)

The top 3 of the tourney turned out like this:
1 Vial Goblins (12 pts)
2 Landstill (12 pts)
3 Angel Stax (10 pts)

Well, i guess it's not much, but i just wanted to share with you all my results. When timespiral becomes legal, i'll defeniatly go -1 Plains, +1 Flagstones.

Thomas Krak
Netherlands

Bane of the Living

09-25-2006, 07:04 PM

Welcome to the source ACME.

Just wanted to ask you a few things about your build.

1) Why Jesters Cap????

2) 24 Mana sources seems a tiny bit low, has it been a problem for you.

3) COP and Seal of Cleansing have bad synergy with Suppression Field. Do you ever face that when you want to side both cards in?

ACME_Myst

09-26-2006, 02:43 AM

Well, since most of the time you can stall combo, but there can be some sort of inevitability if you don't do someting about them. As stated before, solidarity might wish for rebuild, iggy / nausea could tutor up some other bounce spell etc. And no, you don't ALWAYS draw into 3sphere, chalice and tanglewire. Your maindeck is mostly anti agrro oriented with wogs, kegs and prisons. It might just happen that you draw that stuff while mr comboplayer gets a chance to resolve a bounce spell or something. Besides, most of the time it's not really a dead card. Preboard, you can help people who are manascrewed by capping lands (yes, i know it's a rather weak play, but it's still a better play then resolving a prison vs combo). Post board, you can cap away boarded things like shattering spree and the like. I must admit however thay this is probably the weakest slot in the deck and i almost always end up siding them out. Except when playing vs combo of course.

On the second part, no, i have never (not in testing, or in the tourney) been manascrewed due to only running 24 manasources. Except of course that time when i was sitting on a crapton of colorless mana and needed double white for wog.

And it's true about those cards having bad synergy, but that also counts for field with fetch, wasteland, keg, crypt & maze. I feel it's worth having to pay 2 to activate a crypt or keg though. You're probably right on the CoP thing, they where sphere of law's in my planned sideboard. However, either the shop i ordered my SB in, or the mailman took way to much time to get it delivered. So the evening before the tourney i figured i had to do something, so in went the CoPs. I've never drawed both CoP and field at the same time though.

Hanni

09-26-2006, 03:33 AM

Why aren't you yelling at the 5-6 WUB Fish lists fyling around, but at Stax.

Actually, I think there is like 4 of them, and I posted my list first. :wink:

Goblin Snowman

09-26-2006, 12:18 PM

Actually, I think there is like 4 of them, and I posted my list first. :wink:

Yeah, your right. It's called hyperbole, of the excessive variety. My point was that Quicksilver always goes in and says that Stax sucks, and that no version is good, and (in effect) that there are too many people trying to make it good, and by doing so cluttering the N&D, technicly spam, while huge repeats of the same deck goes unnoticed/cared about.

fearphage

09-26-2006, 07:17 PM

I do not believe Hanna's Custody (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=hanna%5Bs_custody) belongs in this deck. (Not even in the sideboard)

It doesn't further the plan of this deck
It has no effect against Nevinyrral's Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=nevinyrral%5Bs_disk), Pernicious Deed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=pernicious_deed), Engineered Explosives (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=engineered_explosives), Serenity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=serenity), Armageddon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=armageddon) or other mass removal (if there are others)
It doesn't protect your lands (Wasteland, Vindicate, etc.) or your enchantments
It doesn't do much in multiples really
It doesn't punsih the opponent for removing it

Karmic Justice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=karmic_justice) is the future. It has none of the shortcomings of Hanna's Custody. Justice helps further our strategy in the permanent war. It keeps board sweepers at bay unless they are willing to give up all their lands and/or creatures in return. Even if the opponent destroys Justice it still takes one of the opponent's permanents with it. What's not to love?

Why is it still being played? Please explain this to me.