[Deck] Angel Stax 2.0 [Archive] - Page 3

fearphage

09-26-2006, 08:51 PM

Global Mass Removal:
Akroma's Vengeance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=akroma%5Bs_vengeance): Rifter, MWC?, Landstill
Anarchy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=anarchy): Goblins, Burn, wishboards
Engineered Explosives: Threshold
Meltdown (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=meltdown): wishboards or those fearing Affinity
Nevinyrral's Disk: Landstill, Sui Black, Trix
Pernicious Deed: Rock, UBg Tog, Salvager
Powder Keg (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=powder_keg): Stax
Pulverize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=pulverize): Burn, wishboards
Serenity: ?

Lands:
Armageddon: Angel Stompy, UGW Threshold, 43 Lands.dec, weenie decks w/ white, Rw goblins
Ruination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=ruination): RGSA , wishboards
Sinkhole (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=sinkhole): BW Confidant, Sui Black
Vindicate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=vindicate): BW Confidant, Salvager, UBW Fish
Wasteland: Too many

If Karmic Justice hits play in the BW Confidant matchup, they either withhold LD until they find a vindicate or they blowup their own lands/creatures. Either way is really good for this deck. Time is all it needs sometimes.

Karmic Justice is not a key card that make or beaks the deck but it does provide resource denial (one goal of the deck) unlike Custody.

Custody solves the problems of 3 cards in general: Disenchant, Naturalize, and Shattering Spree (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=shattering_spree). It is worth noting that Spree is the only one it answers fully.

@ Machinus - This post was not to dispute what you said. I was to further push my point though. Justice 'handles' targetted as well as non-targetted removal well to me but this is just one man's opinion.

NOTE: Just to be clear, just because I listed a deck next to a card does not mean it is played in the most optimal or even the most popular build of the deck. This is just taken from my experience with the decks and/or forum threads about the decks.

jazzykat

09-27-2006, 06:52 PM

Has anyone considered using culling scales? The card should come down on turn 2. The biggest problem I see with it, is that it eats your mox diamond first sometimes and it can't kill nimble mongoose. What it does act like is another smokestack of sorts. Except with the higher cc's in stax it is a bit one sided provided the opponent plays permanents. You can also keep it around by targetting something that doesn't have the lowest CC. i.e. say you dropped it and ate up some goblins. Then you play a sphere of resistance which is the lowest cc on the board. Simply target the scales itself and keep it around to have another permanent which is ready to munch little dudes.

I wanted to use drop of honey for the longest of times but the fact that chalice=1 is 50% of a W vs. thresh and solidarity and can come down first turn really makes it mutually exclusive.

Bane of the Living

09-27-2006, 07:10 PM

I agree, Ive sided in Custody less and less lately since it can often be a very dead draw. I was bringing it in against Survival decks and Goblins in anticipation of the aforementioned cards. Karimic Justice seems like the more aggresive choice however, keeping the theme of the deck to a perm reducing machine. I think the fact Custody doesnt answer LD or Enchantment removal is what makes it the lesser card. Im picking up some Justices.

fearphage

09-27-2006, 11:56 PM

Is anyone interested in a non-creature kill condition? I've been looking for one for a while. What do you think of Umbilicus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=umbilicus)/Blood Clock (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=blood_clock)? Its not a speed kill but it is a very functional lock component that follows the permanent reducing, resource denial theme of the deck. I just came across this. Thoughts?

jazzykat

09-28-2006, 01:45 AM

Well, you still need a way to do damage to them. I mean you can clear their board but they still have to die.

fearphage

09-28-2006, 04:32 AM

I was considering the order of things incorrectly before but it is still viable. With Smokestack and Umbilicus in play I get to decide the order that the effects go onto the stack. So I would make them sack to stack first then return a permanent. With Trinisphere, this is a hard lock that can also deal damage. In retrospect, its not as strong as I originally thought but it is a non-creature kill that is a lock piece. Just brainstorming...

Goblin Snowman

09-28-2006, 12:21 PM

Noncreature win that I can think of off my head

Ebony Owl Netsuke
Rod of Ruinesque effects
Millstone and other Jank
Black Vise (Isn't there one for 4 mana, or am I crazy?)

Angel just seems to be better due to Life Gain, and the fact that it's 5 turns as opposed to 10.

fearphage

09-28-2006, 02:30 PM

Problem with all of those is they are NOT lock pieces on their own.

Silverdragon

09-28-2006, 03:44 PM

On the Umbilicus/Blood Clock thing for those not aware I checked the rulings and it is possible to choose the "return permanent to hand" even when there is no permanent so your opponent can chose to return a non-existant permanent forever (or atleast until someone dies to decking) and wouldn't die of lifeloss.
Concerning Culling Scales I'd rather play Powder Keg because it is faster. It can hit multiple dudes (including Mongoose) the turn after it comes into play (or even blow right away when there are some tokens/morph on the other side).
Smokestack of course is also slow as hell but it can also hit multiple permanents after 2 and more turns in play and it is the only way for us to deal with their basic lands (if we're not playing Armageddon).

fearphage

09-28-2006, 05:44 PM

Grrr.... curse you WOTC! back to the drawing board I guess. Welcome back Angel.

I would like to make place for 2-3 Armageddon and Thunder Totem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=thunder_totem). Any thoughts on what they should replace?

Sai

09-30-2006, 07:07 PM

Hi guys .

I'm new to The Source and have seriously read this long thread about this very interesting deck .
As I'm not a staple player of Legacy , I would like to know what are the global match-ups and game plan , sideboarding against the "main" decks of the metagame ( it involves ******** , Goblins , Solidarity , IggY PoP , Rifter , Yin-Yang ... )
If someone could help , it would really be nice as I'm surely speaking to smart players with so much experience than I've

Last question , what can the deck do against an explosive start of LandS deck ?

Goblin Snowman

09-30-2006, 07:32 PM

Against lands, you can go Suppression Field, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Powder Keg, Chalice @ 2, E. Angel, Wastelock, ect.

Matchups
Thres - Great (75-80% win in my testing). You get 3Sphere or Chalice to resolve, and you win. You eat a few of their 18 lands, you win. You wrath some of their 8-12 creatures, you win. Half your deck is a bomb against them.

Goblin - Depends on build, I could get 55- 60% win ratio preboard with 3 Moat, 3 Humility, and 4 Wrath. Post board Domain hurt, but if you meta them it is pretty easily won. Otherwise maybe 40-50% preboard.

Solidarity - CotV/3Sphere/Smokestack/Geddon. Pray you open with noncreature hate. Pretty good, unless they board rebuild, which they might do, since your clock is soooooo slow.

Iggy Pop - Like Solidaity, but better. They don't have enough bounce to keep up with Prison Pieces.

Rifter - Look for Smokestack. Chalice, as always, is a bomb here @ 2, to stop DE/Rift mainly. If you get a Smokestack, they can Decree, but if they don't, you should win in short order. I've only played a few games, since it's a boring as hell matchup, for both players.

Ying Yang/Deadguy/Confident/Pikula - Sucks. This match is probbably our worst. The deck can screw with our permanent count by making us lose our hand or by Sinkhole/Vindicate. Chalice @ 2 makes you breath easy, but they still can Vindicate, so watch it. My games are roughly 35-45% win ratio.

fearphage

10-01-2006, 06:55 AM

Have any of you tested Spirit Mirror (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=spirit_mirror)? It makes blockers every turn for free and is Smoky fodder? Late game, the token can swing for the win. It provides permanent advantage, which is a key theme in the deck.

I was playing:
// Lock Pieces (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible
4 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire (sorta random fillers that I never liked much)
4 Trinisphere
3 Winter Orb

// Anti-Creatuer + Kill (12)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God

// Mana (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard (not tuned)
3 Glowrider
3 Karmic Justice
4 Sphere of Law
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Powder Keg

Changes I plan to test:
MD: -2 Tangle Wire, -3 Winter Orb, +3 Armageddon, +1 Crucible, +1 Spirit Mirror

Explanations:
Armageddon functionally does the same thing that Winter Orb did but better. It has great synergy with Ghostly Prison. Just from some goldishing, I find that Armageddon patches a huge whole in the deck. It can often remove the need to take Smokestack up to 3 or more to lock and remove problem permanents. One of the best plays is Smokestack, then next turn add a soot counter and then cast Armageddon. Geddon also makes Trinisphere into 2+ Timewalks. With the extra loss of land, I think the extra Crucible is justified to break the symmetry of Armageddon. With 28 mana sources including diamonds, I'm not sure it is necessary but it is working out well to see it sooner than later. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale's usefulness is amplified with geddon as well although I hate that it doesn't produce mana. Spirit Mirror is a much needed aide to the aggro machup. Every turn Goblins lose a creature and Threshold has to attack with atleast 2 creature to get through. This makes Wrath that much sweeter. If I go back down to 3 Crucible I will try 2 Spirit Mirror.
---------------

Other thoughts:
This deck can achieve card advantage through multifunction cards:
Jotun Grunt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=jotun_grunt) - 4/4; anti-graveyard (Tormod's Crypt replacement?)
Hokori, Dust Drinker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=hokori,_dust_drinker) - Legendary 2/2 Winter Orb
Loxodon Gatekeeper (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=loxodon_gatekeeper) - 2/3 Kismet
Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=michiko_konda,_truth_seeker) - Legendary 2/2 anti creature/burn
Windborn Muse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=windborn_muse) - Flying 2/3 Ghostly Prison
Are these too fragile?

On the same wavelength of Spirit Mirror, is offensive and defensive creatures. Vigilance is an untapped resource. I only looked for creatures that cost as much or less than Exalted. (For 1W more, you can get Akroma.) These are the few creatures that jumped out at me:
Adarkar Valkyrie (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=adarkar_valkyrie) - 4/5 flyer with an interesting/useful ability; blocks and kills (and lives) everything in the format not named Goblin Piledriver
Konda, Lord of Eiganjo (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=konda,_lord_of_eiganjo) - no evasion; slow clock; indestructible; cost 1 more than Exalted

These are probably not new ideas but I just wanted to refresh my and everyone's memory
---------------

@ Goblin Snowman - What deck list are you playing? Do you have 10 cards to side in for combo or is it not relevant in your meta? If BW Confidant is big in your area, Spiritual Focus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=spiritual_focus) may be worth testing. Bottled Cloister (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=bottled_cloister) also answers discard in a way.

jazzykat

10-03-2006, 11:34 AM

I have been testing Machinus's build and so far I have found that:
The powder keg is not that awesome, although it has saved my ass at times.
You don't really hard lock them out before you drop a smokestack and a 3sphere and eat their lands.
The Timespiral card Clockwork Hydra looks like a potential cool card for this deck but I don't see it replacing angel or the dragon in the red version. It might be a supplement.
Turbo angel may be the plan of the day. You have 4 of them and you can afford to make them deal with her early and lose one. While they are panicking and trying to kill her, you can drop lock pieces. If you don't have lock pieces then you should be pannicking.

This deck plays a lot of land which I believe it needs because mulliganning for land will suck hard. This deck does not have anyway to draw cards and its topdecks are sometimes less than stellar.

I have seen people run bottled cloister but if I understand the card right if they destroy it during your opponents turn then you lose your whole hand?

Grafted skullcap honestly doesn't look that bad since you get to play 2 cards a turn, who cares about discarding stuff. EXCEPT: You can't sandbag your wraths which are key. If the wraths were turned into ghostly prisons, suprression fields or any other sadistic permanent then it would be good. However, taking WOG out is beyond my comprehension.

I feel that Machinus really did tweak this deck beautifully but there are just a lot of things about it in the current meta that make me queasy. I see people trying different variants but I do not feel that running 3 ofs (with the exception of COW, even trinisphere is so damn clutch I would say it is a 4 of) is the right thing to do, since there must be cards that are better than others and also for consistency's sake we should be running 4 ofs.

What worries me more than anything is aether vial. Goblin Lackey can be blocked by a factory, or wrathed away. Vial dropped before your chalice for 1 will often win them the game (Lackey is bad too, but not soooo bad). I am seriously considering putting culling scales in the board to side out my chalices. Although, I seriously think the tivadar's crusade plan is hot.

Lastly, I am working on a conceptual cross between turboland and stax. The idea would be to give creatures upkeep via tabernacle and pendrell mists, make any spell you play bounce a land, propaganda and prisons to keep them from attacking, use spheres to make everything cost more, explorations to cheat land drops, crucibles to continue doing it, horns of greed to draw cards, ankh's of mishra to make it hurt a lot. Mox diamonds, and wall of roots to take less points and man lands to kill. It shall be called Turbolax. I think it will be UGW right now and it should be maddeningly fun if nothing else. It will probably also run chalice because chalice =1 = gg for thresh, and is really good vs. solidarity, and other good decks.

Machinus

10-03-2006, 01:53 PM

Powder Keg is in the deck for that very reason. Keg cleans up all of the 1-casting cost permanents that hit the board before you resolve chalice 1. Chalice and Keg together lock down the 1cc slot completely. After that, Keg cleans up 2cc creatures and artifacts.

Vial is very strong against Stax, but Stax definitely has the tools to deal with it.

jazzykat

10-04-2006, 02:35 PM

Question to Machinus: can we get another lock piece in your build if we cut 1 angel, 1 3sphere, and the Moat. Say a ghostly prison, or suppression field or is the angel too key to cut, not so much for the fact that you need more than 1 but you need to kill the opponent before time runs out.

Also: is there a way we can get either library manipulation or some type of draw into this deck? Bottled cloister looks cool but if it get's disenchanted during your opponents turn you were mindtwisted. Skull cap makes you pitch wraths, I suppose we can play library of leng but that sucks for so many different reasons I am not going to get into it. Mind's eye costs 5 and mana to activate. I almost want to play howling mine but that is only good after you lock down the board making it win more. I have looked and Bargaining Table and Jalum Tome look to be possible candidates as 3 ofs.

I am interested to hear your thoughts and that of others who use Machinus's build. If you have your own build please state that when you comment on my ideas so I understand the context that you are commenting in.

Cheers,
JK

Goblin Snowman

10-04-2006, 04:49 PM

@Jazzykat - "I have seen people run bottled cloister but if I understand the card right if they destroy it during your opponents turn then you lose your whole hand?"

"Grafted skullcap honestly doesn't look that bad since you get to play 2 cards a turn, who cares about discarding stuff"

Umm... well, if they kill Cloister, then your hand is RFG, however, this is only if they use a useful card to target it other than, say Smokestack. I like that more than autolosing it to Skullcap. Skullcap is almost always wrose, the only time it's better is if they have a DE on a stick and you have Crucible and need to get the land you discard into play. Otherwise, I'm happy about how much better Cloister is.

Power Keg is there pretty much for killing Aether Vial, which is does great, and for it being awesome late game.

In my testing, 23-24 lands is there right number. I have gone between 4 Mox 23 land and 3 Mox 24 land, but Mox's explosiveness is needed.

I would not cut Moat for Ghostly Prison.

You could try Pursuit of Knowlage. While it again sucks to be DE, when it activates, you win. Umm.... Farsight Mask? Mercadian Atlas? Staff of Domination? Urza's Blueprints?

But my personal favorite is Well of Knowladge.

Here's another card to throw out for Testing - Island Sanctuary. While it is not Moat, it is cheaper if you don't have them.

Morim_Brightsmoke

10-04-2006, 06:04 PM

Does this deck want flagstones of trokair? It can be sacked to stack for no ill effects and thinning more lands out is decent. Just a thought.

Silverdragon

10-05-2006, 04:20 PM

It would require some modification of the manabase, but yes it it could be good in Angel Stax.

This was about 2 pages ago when we first saw the card on the spoiler. My personal opinion is that Flagstones should always be included as a one or two of but yes it may need a bit of tweaking on the manabase.

SillyMetalGAT

10-05-2006, 06:51 PM

Goblin Snowman

10-05-2006, 07:09 PM

Why do you use Powder Keg?? Suppression Field >>>>>>>>>>> Powder Keg almost a million times over. That card is more than enough against vial. It also shuts down like everything else that would give you problems. Survival eats it to Field. Moat is also kinda worse then Ghostly Prison. Moat doesn't stop opposing Angels, Sea Drakes, Flying Men, Mystic Enforcers, Fledgling Dragons, or E. Dragons. Actually, the only deck that it completely shuts down is Goblins, and Ghostly Prison does the same thing. Not to mention you drop 2 Prisons and Goblins scoops.

Ok... well, yeah, at Killing Vial and Fetches it rocks. At affecting the board, something that Stax lacks a little, Keg is better. When you're staring down a Piledriver, you wish you could get rid of it.

Umm.... well, 2x Prison doesn't kill Goblins. They can still win unless you're already eating perms by Chucking Goblins at your face. Moat already is Autowin vs. (just going to go up and down Open Discussion here) Goblins, generally Thres (they run between 0-1 Fat recently), RGSA, Zilla Stompy, Pretty Much Angel Stompy (they have 4 cards. Oh, Noes!), Zoo, Red Death, Truffle Shuffle, slows the crap out of Ichorid, Madness, Tog, Rock, Deadguy, Most of what's in N&D. I like that a little more for one more white.

Grand Total of decks E. Dragon is played in... 2.... possible. Landstill and Rifter, neither of which are really played.

Dragon/Enforcer - 1 Copy at the most in thres.

Flying Men - Nothing?

Sea Drake - One deck, that apparently I am the only one who plays something close to it? I have never seen anyone else play something with 4x Chalice in the main in my meta.

Angel - It's namesake Stompy, which ususally wins off of Weenies/Equiptment, and the Mirror.

I like having that autowin factor against a good 60% of the meta preboard.

Bane of the Living

10-07-2006, 10:50 AM

Part of my wants to play this deck at the mana clash. I want to refine my build though. What do you guys think of this list?

Mana 29
3 Flagstones of Tokinar
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadin Port
4 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

White 13
3 Exalted Angel
3 Suppression Field
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God

Artifacts 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

SB 15
4 Defense Grid
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Armageddon
2 Sphere of Law
2 Powder Keg
2 Moat

Manabase:
I keep ports because I believe how detrimental keeping an opponent under 3sphere lock is. Im playing Flagstones because its phenominal. Try it and be amazed. A full slate of Tombs and Cities is important for explosive consistancy.

Has anyone else played with 4 City of Traitors and 3 Crucible of Worlds? Does it work out well enough or would a different split work better? 3 City 3 Crucible? 4 and 4?

White:
I think its got some promise in it. I like keeping Suppression Field in unknown metas because it is ALWAYS randomly good and barely ever randomly bad. Its great against Survival and Equipment, both of which are heavily played by Stompy fans. Its casting cost keeps it an important lock piece in the early game, and always a great bait for countermagic. Im playing an extra mox in my deck, Chrome Mox. To assure double white mana for the WoG's and Moats. Its also nice to play 5 moxen since your explosive first turn rate goes up alot.

Artifacts:
Im going with 4 3spheres because it just wins games. Ive never been ticked off about multiples because they are always blown up, discarded, countered, or can just be sacced to Smokestack.

So the big things Im trying to work out right now are...

Moat vs Sphere of Resistance ; Should I maindeck either?

Armageddon: MB or SB?

What do you guys think?

stompy

10-07-2006, 12:07 PM

Wow! 71 cards and no Battle of Wits?! Seriously Bane, you know that all those cards are good for the deck, but all at once?
If you were to run armageddon main, I would remove the Fields while G Prison keeps them back until you blow their lands up.
Looks strong though. But just.... well.... big.

Bane of the Living

10-07-2006, 12:54 PM

Im sucha noob. It was early. Editing..

Do you guys like Geddon main? I havent tried it yet. What decks is it viable against? Which is it mediocre with?

Goblin Snowman

10-07-2006, 05:23 PM

If you had them, I wouldn't run Stax without Moat. SoR, in my experience, belongs in the sideboard, if anywhere. That card can hurt you badly if they unkindly Waste a land. Trinisphere rarely affects you, but SoR hurts equally. Geddon in the main is good against Control and Combo in most forms. If you run Ghostly Prison, it's pretty solid, but it usually for me ends up in the sideboard. It's bad against, say, Goblins, who usually side it in against you.

jazzykat

10-08-2006, 09:22 PM

I was wondering about the mulliganning decisions for this deck and what good rules of thumb are. I sometimes Have no turn 1 pressure or turn 2: 3 mana but I have already mulled to six. If I can play the hand I am inclined to keep it.

Also, I got my face burned today by a burn deck. I had 8 MD answers but none showed up(4 chalice, 4 3sphere). Should I have been mulliganning harder?

fearphage

10-09-2006, 12:16 AM

Do you guys like Geddon main? I havent tried it yet. What decks is it viable against? Which is it mediocre with?

Armageddon is good at different times in different matchups.
Control: Geddon is another bomb. Control tends to have lots of non-permanents (like card draw and counters). So Geddon depletes there low permanent count drastically. It re-intensifies the effects of Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, and Glowrider/Sphere of Resistence. It is a very valuable addition to the lock suite.
Combo: Some combo decks couldn't care less about Armageddon. Not that it doesn't affect them its just not nearly as devestating as other components (3sphere,2sphere,chalice). Excluding Solidarity, many storm-based combo decks run about 10-16 lands because they only need 1 or 2 at most to combo. Some can go first turn with 0 land so Armageddon is not that crucial. For Solidarity, this is another must counter. I want to wait until they have 3 lands in play to cast it but thats risky so I generally play it when they have 2 in play. Taking 2 lands from their 18 after they have already fetched/cantripped into a few is massive.
Aggro: Geddon's usefulness is limited to a few specific situations:
- with a Ghostly Prison effect in play
- with Tabernacle in hand or (in graveyard with crucible)
- post Wrath

I agree that Moat is in most cases superior to Ghostly Prison. I would atleast test them if I owned them but it's not worth purchasing them to play in only this deck. With Moat in a non-flying aggro meta, I would strongly have to re-evaluate maindeck Armageddon.

@ jazzykat - It depends on the matchup but I look for about 2-3 strong, consecutive plays in an opening hand. A hand where a first turn 3sphere or Chalice for 1 is available and 1 more land is generally a keeper. I find that the matchup dictates how aggressive I need to mulligan. If its game one, then I'll keep anything with a strong first 2 turns. Did burn beat you one game or 2 of 3 games? Are you playing Sphere of Law in the side? I'd be willing to go down to 4 cards to get something broken in play sooner than later. Remember Trinisphere creates time walks for the first 2 turns. I would be skeptical of going to less than 4 cards. If I had to make up a rule, I rarely keep hands where I can't generate 2 mana on turn 1 or 3 mana on turn 2. This is flexible however and is based on the other cards in my hand.

General Advice: Don't ever forfeit a game because you had to mulligan a lot. Sometimes it works out that your opponent keeps a bad/slow hand as well. Anything can happen. Play until you know you are raped. As a rule I play out every single game, unless my opponent forfeits, just because you never know what may or may not happen.

@ those testing TS cards - How is Flagstones of Trokair playing for you? Have you ever wished it was a Plains instead? If so, when/why?

Everyone knows what the perfect hand/game with this deck is right?
Turn 1: Trinisphere
Turn 2: Smokestack
Turn 3: Crucible/Spirit Mirror (optional, but makes the lock indefinite)

Goblin Snowman

10-09-2006, 07:58 AM

Funny story about that opener, I couldn't find a clock, and he had 2x ESG to use Viridian Shamen :(. I'm using Flastones, and it rocks. Having basicly 2 lands for Smokestack to sac.

jazzykat

10-09-2006, 11:50 AM

@ jazzykat - It depends on the matchup but I look for about 2-3 strong, consecutive plays in an opening hand. A hand where a first turn 3sphere or Chalice for 1 is available and 1 more land is generally a keeper. I find that the matchup dictates how aggressive I need to mulligan. If its game one, then I'll keep anything with a strong first 2 turns. Did burn beat you one game or 2 of 3 games? Are you playing Sphere of Law in the side? I'd be willing to go down to 4 cards to get something broken in play sooner than later. Remember Trinisphere creates time walks for the first 2 turns. I would be skeptical of going to less than 4 cards. If I had to make up a rule, I rarely keep hands where I can't generate 2 mana on turn 1 or 3 mana on turn 2. This is flexible however and is based on the other cards in my hand.

General Advice: Don't ever forfeit a game because you had to mulligan a lot. Sometimes it works out that your opponent keeps a bad/slow hand as well. Anything can happen. Play until you know you are raped. As a rule I play out every single game, unless my opponent forfeits, just because you never know what may or may not happen.

I did not have sphere of law in the side but it looks like a must include so I don't get my face toasted. As far as mulliganning I know what the mana situation looks like however, I just can't get the deck to give me decent hands except about 50% of the time. I mean, either I have too much mana or I don't have 3 mana until turn 3, have a 1 land hand, too many mox diamonds, etc.

I don't own moat, and mox diamond sometimes makes hands unkeepable. I am thinking of going to 4 COT, replacing the moat with crucible, and cutting a diamond so I can get more consistent and keepable busted starts.

I also worry about taking a 1 normal land, 1 City of traitor's hand. Cause I will not get to cast smokestack or chalice for 2 and I lose cot, normally when I want to play down a plains.

Another thing. I lost to braids beatdown over 5 turns in one game, and 2 army ants beatdown over 5 turns in another game from a land D deck when I had out crucible and had the mana to smoke them.
Specifically in the braids case, I had 12 answers left in my deck to block/kill her but I couldn't top deck any of them. This deck topdecks ass, especially late game when most of your lock pieces are infinitely useless because an extra 3 sphere, crucible, and to an extent wire doesn't matter. I play in a meta with a lot of basic land so strip locks are difficult.

No one plays combo, no one plays thresh hold. All the decks are played are janky weirdness that is slow and has lots of basic land. Rifter is the closest we have to an archetype. There is weird slide, mbc w/deed, burn (piloted by an excellent player, knocked me off my undefeated roost in multiple tourneys), UG Madness, strange aggro, goblins, and elves.

I am thinking that Angel Stax is a poor choice for the meta and I should go back to UGR thresh (even though there is ungodly amounts of grave hate aimed at me)

Bane of the Living

10-09-2006, 06:54 PM

The reasons to play stax are Thresh and Combo. So sadly I would point you away from stax at the moment. Stax loses to random.dec it beats tierone.dec always remember that. There are certainly games where you still beat jank because your lock pieces rule, but those games are even with the games were people play random bombs like Serenity or Rack and Ruin.

Flagstones is amazing. Its one of the first cards Id pick up from TS if I were you.

What it does with Smokestack is obvious and kick ass.

What it does x2 is kick ass, thinning 2 more land from your deck.

What it does x2 with Crucible is maximize your plains from the deck in just a couple turns, thinning a solid amount of non lock pieces out of your shitty top decking situation.

What it does with Armageddon is unfair. Especially if geddon is followed by Tomb/City for a 3cc lock piece after geddon.

Flagstones is that it works with Suppression Field, whereas fetchlands blow.

Flagstones is solid against LD from decks like Deadguy, a bad matchup.

....I need to find out what the correct number of Flagstones//Plains is. I might want 4 Flagstones just to increase the Legend effect goodness.

Just to stress and recap..

A+

jazzykat

10-09-2006, 07:08 PM

Goblin Snowman

10-09-2006, 07:51 PM

It's possible to meta Angel Stax against a randomish aggro field. I'm running it in a place with 35 minute rounds, against Random Aggro just fine. Just have 10ish things that hose them, like Wrath/Wrath Varients, such as Rout, Ghostly Prison, Moat, you get the idea. Also, from your meta discription, I would look into Angel Stompy, since it has good game against Aggro and Control in general, and random red aggro, like burn or slight, in paticular.

kicks_422

10-13-2006, 07:59 PM

In my work in testing and building viable Stax decks, I've always found that being able to Chalice for 0-2 is a great boon, and this makes me keep 2cc cards off of my Stax decks... Is Chalice really just meant to be set at 0-1? Is Suppression Field and/or Powder Keg worth to be run, even in scenarios when you just Chalice'd for 2 and then topdeck them?...

Machinus

10-13-2006, 08:39 PM

Chalice 1 is the best weapon in this deck. It is one of the basic principles the deck is built around, and it remains powerful in the current environment.

Not including 2cc cards because chalice can be cast at 2 is foolish. You have to pretend to have some kind of mana curve.

Bane of the Living

10-13-2006, 08:56 PM

I only play 3 Suppression Fields so I can play it set at two and still be ok with it. Like Machinus said you dont need to ignore your 2cc spot just for cotv. There are also much much less circumstances where you'll be dropping it for 2 since 1 is the money play.

matelml

10-15-2006, 08:04 AM

I am planning to play this list at a local legacy tournament. there is probably going to be a lot of random decks so I hope the matchup isn't as bad as you say all the time.

3 exalted angel
4 smokestack
4 ghostly prison
3 armageddon
3 wrath of god
1 the tabernacle at pendrill vale
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 tangle wire
3 crucible of worlds
4 mox diamond
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 flagstones of trokair
5 plains

sideboard:
1 wrath of god
1 armageddon
1 crucible of worlds
4 sphere of law
3 defense grid
2 supression field
3 karmic justice

there are probably going to come a lot of budget players and I expect a lot of aggro, aggro control and control (control mostly U based and B based). I am mostly worried about the control matchup, I mean if they can FoW your first lockpiece and than just play counterspells, disenchants and so on won't you lose pretty bad? I would like to hear your opinions.

matelml

jazzykat

10-15-2006, 10:01 PM

Here's my opinion. If you are going to face a lot aggro and jank then you probably want 4 wrath, and 4 ghotstly prison MD. 4 angels starts to look very good too.

Now, I wouldn't bother with the deck, if you read up a few posts you would see that I was being steered away from angel stax due to the jankiness level of my meta.

Sorry I can't be more positive but I have been frustrated first hand with jankiness.

Best of luck.

JK

matelml

10-16-2006, 04:54 AM

what would you take out for the extra angel and wrath? maybe 1 tangle wire and 1 trinisphere? I am not sure I want another wrath , it looks like this deck already wins easily from aggro with ghostly prison + armageddon or a wrath.you just need to slow them down and then put your lock down. and I think this deck can still win in a janky metagame if you just make some little changes, like the supression field sideboard and so on.

Silverdragon

10-16-2006, 08:48 PM

@bane_of_the_living are you sure you want to run 61 cards in this deck?

Armageddon greatly improves many matchups namely Solidarity and all sorts of Control but against Goblins Tangle Wire is much more helpful. I'd say keep them in the board because they are awesome (even more with Flagstones) but also dead in some matches unless, as was said above, you have Ghostly Prison or Tabernacle.
Even without Armageddon I suggest running 4 Flagstones main. They have been amazing for me and they are the reason I switched from red to white.
There's one last thing that bothers me: Rishardan Port. Most of the times I was annoyed (to say the least) of seeing this card next to a Suppression Field. In my list I cut Port to make room for more Plains and not only did the manabase feel a bit better (easier to get WW) this also gave my reccuring Flagstones more targets.
I have to admit concerning Port I'm a bit biased because every time I use 2 lands to negate one of my opponents it just feels like he's the one porting me :-/

SillyMetalGAT

10-16-2006, 08:55 PM

. I have to admit concerning Port I'm a bit biased because every time I use 2 lands to negate one of my opponents it just feels like he's the one porting me :-/

Not if your playing instants. Which I dont believe you do. Just Disenchant.

Chippo

10-24-2006, 07:42 AM

Hey guys,

yes this is my first post over here so don't shoot me :wink:

Currently I'm playing angel stax but a version who won a tournament at my home town.

Maindeck:

Deck:
Armageddon 4
Exalted Angel 4
Ghostly Prison 4
Wrath of God 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Crucible of Worlds 4
Tangle Wire 4
Trinisphere 3

Mana:
Mox Diamond 4
Ancient Tomb 3
City of Traitors 4
Mishra's Factory 4
Plains 10
Wasteland 4

Sideboard:
Light of Day 3
Rule of Law 2
Sphere of Law 3
Defense Grid 2
Pithing Needle 2
Tormod's Crypt 2
Trinisphere 1

This is the version on the other hand I'm thinking of putting in smokestacks and the new land from time spiral but for the stax I'm really sure what to remove.
On the other hand I still wonder why you guys use port over mishra's factory which I think is a great chump blocker in this deck.

Enlighten me

Silverdragon

10-24-2006, 10:17 AM

First this deck screams for Flagstones of Trokair. You should definately be playing 3-4 in the future.
Second I'd also play 4 Ancient Tombs. Thanks to Angel their drawback isn't nearly as bad as in other Stax-like decks.
On the Port versus Factory thing, Factory is better early game because of chump blocking that's true and Port is better lategame because it can keep opponents under Trinisphere-lock. The problem I have with Factory is that in the early game where it's best you always want the mana to cast additional lockpieces. Keeping 2 mana open early game can cost you the game later because you couldn't lock the opponent fast enough before his counters or whatever became active.
I tried Factory in various other builds as an additional finisher and it was quite good in this role, however Angelstax already plays one of the best finishers available so it isn't needed in this role either.
Another thing that concerns me is that you've no way to get rid of enchantments and the only way to kill basiclands are the one-shot Armageddons.
The deck looks like it might be good against Thresh but has problems against Goblins especially if they run tricks like Sharpshooter. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about your matchups and your meta.
Anyway if I had to cut cards for Smokestacks I'd go -1 Armageddon, -1 Ghostly Prison, -1 Crucible, -1 Tangle Wire.

By the way I don't play Port and Factory because I maindeck Suppresion Field now and it's working quite good in a meta full of Fetchlands :)

matelml

10-24-2006, 12:08 PM

Bane of the Living

10-25-2006, 04:49 PM

hey I read a few posts back and realized you can take out the angels for island sanctuary's cause it's not only a small moat it is a win condition too, if you are under smokestack+CoW! doesn't look too bad. what do you think?

matelml

Skip your draw phase for the lose?

You need angel. Feel free to side out 1-3 angels against scoop happy opponents though. I usually side all but one out against non aggro decks if I won game one.

ACME_Myst

10-30-2006, 05:05 AM

Some more tourney results from me.

I took this deck to the Open Dutch Legacy Championships
yesterday, with a total of 132 players.
After 8 rounds of swiss I was at 25th place, missing out
on top 16 by one match. I didn't took any notes, but I'll
give you the list I whas playing and what I played against in
the hopes that it will give everybody something to discuss.

So, first off, the list I played:

//Maindeck (60)

//Mana (26)
6 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

//Stuff (19)
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison

//Removal (9)
3 Powder Keg
3 Wrath of God
3 Armageddon

//Win (4)
3 Exalted Angel
1 Karn, Silver Golem

//Randomness
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing

//Sideboard (15)

3 Defense Grid
3 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hanna's Custody
1 Seal of Cleansing

So that's the deck, and I must say that throughout the
tourney and in testing, it's been very good to me.

Here's what happened at the tournament. As said I didnt
take any notes so I'll just post the games. Seems better
then giving probably wrong information on sideing / plays.

ROUND 1 vs Alexander with R/G Goblins
I win 2-1.

ROUND 2 vs Willem with UWgb Landstill
I lose 1-2.

ROUND 3 vs Twan with B/W Pikula.dec
Lose 1-2.

ROUND 4 vs Richard with UGw *****
Win 2-0.

ROUND 5 vs Chris with R/G Beats
Win 2-1.

ROUND 6 vs Fabian with UR Landstill
Win 2-1.

ROUND 7 vs Erol with Rw Goblins
Win 2-1.

ROUND 8 vs Floran with Rw Goblins
Lose 0-2.

I guess its not truly helpfull since I don't have notes
and everything, and 25th place isn't exactly spectacular,
but I don't want this thread to just slide off of the
front page of these boards and never be heard from again :tongue: .

Greetings,

Thomas Krak
The Netherlands

Machinus

10-30-2006, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the report! If you remember how you lost any of your matches, that would be the most helpful information. What is your analysis of the deck after the tournament?

Bane of the Living

10-30-2006, 05:44 PM

I took the deck to a local tournament Sunday. I went 2-2-0 missing top 8.

First round I lost to a loam deck playing alot of burn with Kird Apes. Loam is good agaist Smokestack. I couldnt find CotV for 2.

Second round I got paired against my loving gf with Thresh and she gave me the win.

Third round was a w/u/g survival deck with Meddling Mage and Mongeese, I kept him under sphere lock and used Suppression Field to slow his tricks.

Fourth round I lost to some kid playing his deck from States. It was a standard ghazi glare deck. Well Glare is awsome against Mox Diamond, Trinisphere, and Angel. He had Devouring Light for removal, not something easy to hit with Chalice. Chalice for one did nothing to his deck at all. The only strength I had was Wastelock and he sided in Sacred Ground games 2 and 3. What a disappointing loss.

I think I sat through a good 15 draw phases where I looked at the locked up board and just pissed and groaned because I drew another land or a second Crucible ect.. I think Ill be leaving the world of white stax for awhile and switch to a color with more card advantage and card draw.

ACME_Myst

10-30-2006, 05:52 PM

Well yes, I do recall some of the things that cost me those games.

round 2 vs landstill
This is the match I remember least of, but in testing I've already found the landstill
matchups sucks. I believe it was a deed that took out my entire board, putting me
back in topdeck position which, as we all know, this deck doesn't like to be in.

round 3 vs pikula
The first two games where actually rather close, but in game 3 I draw an opening 7 with only
1 wasteland, going down to six, zero land, putting me with a 5 card hand consisting of
1 wasteland and double mox d.I wasn't willing to drop to 4 though , and couldnt really recover
from topdecks (again :p)

round 8 vs goblins
Game 1 he really draws the nuts and there wasn't much I could do there.
Game 2 I get down an early sphere of law, which gets disenchanted, followed by a second sphere
backed up with ghostly. I kindof stall there, but he gets down a Goblin King and lots of lands,
effectively negating my prison. I hardcast angel in the hopes to stabilize my lifetotal, but he
cycles off an incinerator. I die shortly after.

Other things I can say about the deck is that my goblins matchup really isn't that bad
(despite losing to it in the final round of swiss). Even on the draw, where chalice @ 1 isn't
nearly as effective I can usually stabilize with kegs / wrath / prison+geddon.

***** is, of course, sort of a bye. Funny sidenote: the guy playing ***** against me said he
didn't believe me when I had told him afterwards the ******** matchup was so good for me.

I don't really get to test the combo matchup a lot, but I guess this should be pretty easy obviously.

Decks I REALLY hate to see:
- Landstill. Though I cannot figure out why, this matchup is heavily unfavorable.
- Tog. (I think) Have been testing against burning tog with my previous list a lot (see few pages back),
and really couldn't win against it. It just countered early threats, wished for meltdown and hit me FTW.
Didn't test with my current list though, I suppose running geddons did make the matchup better.
- 43Land.dec . Didn't test this one, but it must be godawful when on the draw.

Decks that give me a run for my money:
- Goblins. See above. Slightly in my favor.
- Pikula.dec . Though not heavily tested, this matchup should be about even.

Decks I like to see:
- *****. we all know why.
- Combo. I think. Need to test this more.

As you can see the matchups are pretty solid but it really needs more testing. There are hardly
any legacy players in my area though, so the decks I usually test against are rogue UBr Hunted Control, and, since a couple of weeks, raffinity.
Besides that, I try playtesting a lot on MWS, but it's REALLY hard to find good opponents even when
the program itself isn't suffering from annoying bugs (like random crashes).

So I might as well say it now: if anybody has a place open on a serious legacy playtesting team,
I hereby volunteer ;).

Hope this was a little helpfull.

Machinus

10-30-2006, 06:16 PM

I think Ill be leaving the world of white stax for awhile and switch to a color with more card advantage and card draw.

Have you played with Wildfire at all?

Also, what was your manabase? Here is the one I currently recommend for Angel Stax:

4 Diamond
4 Tomb
3 City
3 Wasteland
4 Factory
4 Flagstones
6 Plains

Bane of the Living

10-30-2006, 06:26 PM

My last mana base is..

4 Diamond
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Flagstones
5 Plains

I run 2 less white sources but I only run 3 Prison, 3 Angel, and 4 Wrath main. I still prefer Port over Factory but maybe Ill switch and see if it changes things.

I havent played Wildfire Stax since it was around in Standard with urza block. I might try that switch as well. I know you dont have the list posted here but on the mana drain. Would you mind starting discussion here? I would start the thread but it would be appropriate if you did.

jazzykat

10-30-2006, 06:39 PM

While I realize that mana stability is key, is there any way a W/R version is viable using R for wildfire and W for angel. And yes I know they both have RR and WW as color requirements but they are HUGE bombs to drop and I am thinking that maybe Legacy stax should be more about big bombs.dec with stax components to screw with the opponent rather than working on a solid lock via 1 piece at a time, where you lose to random.dec because they don't follow the efficiency paradigms that the top decks do. Bombs wreck everyone equally...i.e. wildfire rapes everyone, and angel on the board is good for no opponent. Armageddon is usually very bad for them and coupled with trinisphere and/or crucible of worlds is downright mean.

Playing bombs.dec with some lock pieces tends to make topdecks better as well because if you rip a bomb, the opponent better have an answer or lose in short order.

Machinus

10-30-2006, 06:59 PM

Would you mind starting discussion here? I would start the thread but it would be appropriate if you did.

Here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4516) you go.

I am thinking that maybe Legacy stax should be more about big bombs.dec with stax components to screw with the opponent rather than working on a solid lock via 1 piece at a time, where you lose to random.dec because they don't follow the efficiency paradigms that the top decks do.

A well-expressed argument. I know exactly what you're getting at, and you are right that Stax has this weakness. However, it is my opinion as a player that decks must always be designed to beat the best decks. It is simply a consequence of the format's unpredictability at this time that Stax cannot consistently survive to the top tables where it would indeed perform very well against the most efficient decks. It is my opinion that it is better to maintain this strength and risk playing against random decks, than to significantly weaken the matchups against the best decks in order to get the chance to play them more often.

However, there is one problem in your argument. Adding color instability to this deck would make it worse against all decks, not just the best ones. Random decks run wastelands too.

HdH_Cthulhu

11-08-2006, 05:46 PM

why not include 4 Flagstones of Trokair?

it is insane with Crucible of Worlds, smokestack, wasteland to get WW

and it is a rare so it fits the thema of the deck:laugh:

Aggro_zombies

11-20-2006, 03:47 AM

How much of a win-more card is Chronosavant? It's a turn-skipping mechanism to wipe out their board, and stuff like Chronatog Totem and Meditate work well in the blue version of this deck, although that version generally lacks decent sweepers. It's also a 5/5 beatstick that can end the game in a timely manner and doesn't care about your board destruction effects as long as you keep 1W in play. Does it deserve a slot here, and if so, in what quantities and in place of what?

jazzykat

11-20-2006, 12:42 PM

Eldariel

11-20-2006, 04:43 PM

If I could make angel stax better I would do it by putting more bombs in it. However, if I just wanted to play bombs.dec I should just play an updated an pumped up version of Kai's Widlfire deck.

IMO Angel stax needs the metagame to mature from less randomness for it to be really good.

If the Goblin-MU is swingy, and control gives it problems, it's going to get worse as the metagame evolves. It's already been shown that Gobs aren't going anywhere regardless of what gets played and control is coming back if anything.

Goblin Snowman

11-20-2006, 05:21 PM

If the Goblin-MU is swingy, and control gives it problems, it's going to get worse as the metagame evolves. It's already been shown that Gobs aren't going anywhere regardless of what gets played and control is coming back if anything.

That's why I'm not running anything more than kinda resembling Angel Stax. Running 8 Armageddons with 8 Ghostly Prisons makes 16 Bombs against any deck that is not Ichorid (Geddon blows). I do have positive Goblins MU, and with rediculous LD Stax has apositive Control MU. My problem with the deck is that it has no overwhelmingly good MUs, most at 45-60% win ratio. This means that we go 5-2-1 or 5-3 or some such nonsense at larger tournements.

jazzykat

11-21-2006, 05:54 PM

If the Goblin-MU is swingy, and control gives it problems, it's going to get worse as the metagame evolves. It's already been shown that Gobs aren't going anywhere regardless of what gets played and control is coming back if anything.

I think that goblin snowman hit the nail on the head when he said that he has metagamed his deck to kill goblins. If the metagame matures you can run the appropriate bombs vs. your weaker matchups i.e. goblins while continuing to crush combo, and threshhold. You get your butt handed to you by random.dec quite often because you don't have your deck set up to beat them. The less random.dec you play against the better because that should be where the bulk of your losses come from and the not so hot goblin matchup.

Aggro_zombies

11-21-2006, 11:31 PM

Bane of the Living

11-22-2006, 05:22 PM

NO to Chronosavant. Its a 5/5 with no evasion and theres no way to get it into your yard short of playing it. Starting the game with one in hand is like taking a mulligan, its not like you can play it morphed on turn one.

sammiel

12-06-2006, 11:19 AM

I quickly threw together a list without much playtesting, managed to stumble my way into the top 8 of a 20ish man tournament.

Match 1: Vial Goblins

Obliterated him with perfect draws both games, he either had terrible luck or terrible hands, or didn't know how to mulligan. Game 1 He hit me with lackey second turn and dropped...another lackey! The double lackey beats next turn dropped nothing, so god only knows what his hand looked like.

Anyway, I drew into ghostly prison + moat game 1, ghostly prison + mana denial game 2. Game 2 he hit me 5-6 times with a lone piledriver.

Match 2: God knows what threshold

Game 1 he forced early and put beats down. Game 2 I just powered through counters to get some disruption and then he scooped when I resolved angel. Game 3 I locked and got an angel down, finishing the beats as we went to turns. This guy was a friend of mine, played some very questionable changes to his threshold deck, resulted in him not making Top 8.

Match 3: UGB thresh

Smoked me quickly both games. No swords for his confidant typically involves me scooping. weird build of threshold i've never seen before, but it did him well enough.

Match 4: B/W Homebrew

Smoked me quickly both games. This deck, or at least my cobbled together version of it, sucks when the opponent has hand disruption and vindicate as an answer to anything that does resolve.

Match 5: UR Scepter

Game 1 I got him under a quick wastelock and he never recovered. Game 2 I had a waste/crucible but he was sporting his basics that time. I scooped a losing game early to try and have enough for game 3. I could not get my lock pieces on him, so I had to hardcast my angels and pray. got him down to 4 before he doubleburned my 3rd angel, we went to time, would have been a draw, but he had the class to concede to me in the fifth turn so I could top 8, instead of a draw knocking us both out. He definitely would have beaten me if we hadn't gone to turns, my fourth angel was buried and I was low enough on life for a couple burn topdecks to finish me.

Match 6: UG Madness

yay, squeaked into top 8, and against a deck I was confident I could beat. Well, game 1 he overextends into wrath and I have no second white source. Game 2 he overextends into wrath and the last card in his hand is his second circular logic. Bleah.

3 packs of timespiral for finishing 5-8th, and I snagged an Akroma out of one of those packs, so definitely was a fun day.

the list

7x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
2x Ancient Tomb

4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Wrath of God
4x Smokestack
3x Suppression Field
3x Exalted Angel
3x Ghostly Prison
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Moat
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Rule of Law

SB

3x Powder Keg
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
4x Tangle Wire
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Exalted Angel

I put this list together in the expectation of seeing 2+ landstill decks and goblins as the only real metagame lists, followed by all sorts of randomness, mostly bad aggro. I never got paired up against one of the two landstill decks, beat the one goblin player and the one random bad threshold player, got smoked by everything else. Homebrew was such a bad matchup that we played two more games, I lost them both quickly, then we switched and played 2 more, and I won with Homebrew twice.

Anyway, some changes that I would make if I were to stick with this deck for our next Legacy tournament:

Suppression Field: Gone. Its unexpected, and might be great if I ever do get paired against landstill, but without something like dynamo or lotus, I can no longer use my ports/wastelands very effectively once this goes up.

Ancient Tomb: Gone. I don't rely very heavily on broken turn one plays, I'd rather have 2 more ports. Ports were doing great for me the few times I drew into them.

Ancient Den: Can't believe I overlooked this, but definitely would go in as a singleton to be fetched by enlightened tutor.

The enlightened tutor toolbox was nifty, but was never really necessary. I'd rather scrap the toolbox in favor of more maindecked removal. Which brings me to my most relevant point.

Swords to Plowshares: I missed this card all day. Maybe MD it and bump some/all the wraths to the SB.

Eternal Dragon: I'm thinking about replacing the 4th angel in the SB with an eternal dragon or two, there were times where plaincycling would have helped me, and being able to retrieve him from the yard would have helped too. The spiritlink was handy, but never won me a game. There was at least one game where beating for an extra point each turn would have made the difference, and one game where being able to retrieve him from the gy would have made the difference. I'm definitely going to playtest a bit.

Sensei's Divining Top: Something I might consider in place of enlightened tutor, especially if I go with eternal dragons.

Silverdragon

12-07-2006, 12:16 AM

Congrats on Top8
Glad there are people who actually play this deck in tournaments :)
Interesting idea with the tutor toolbox but what I can't understand is the lack of 2 Ancient Tombs. You're right that as long as this deck can constantly wrath on turn 3-4 you don't need the broken turn one plays that often but I'd rather cut 2 City of Traitors instead of 2 Ancient Tombs because with Angel you shouldn't have trouble supporting the Tombs.

Geeba

12-31-2006, 06:12 AM

I see no posts have been submitted in this thread for quite a while, so maybe a few new suggestions can rekindle the discussion. I would appreciate it as I am working on various forms of stax myself right now, although my testing is rather limited to goldfishing.

I have some suggestions for this deck, and I was wondering what the stax playing community does think about it. Mostly, these cards are more or less equal in function compared to Wrath of God, so they may replace those.

First, the Drop of Porphyry, the PC functional reprint of Drop of Honey. On the plus-side, its effect lasts longer, however, this may also be a drawback if you are forced to play an early Angel. The single W mana required is a plus, but it has a very bad interaction with Chalice.

Second, the new white Crovax:
Crovax, Ascendant Hero 4ww
Legendary creature-Human Lord R
Other white creatures get +1/+1
Nonwhite creatures get -1/-1
Pay 2 life: Return Crovax, Ascendant Hero to it's owners hand.
4/4

It's white's Engineered Plague on a stick. As a bonus, it can bounce if you have life to spare. Obviously, it is less stellar against white weenie variants. Also note the lack of evasion, but then again, Wrath isn't a win condition at all.

My last suggestion is an oldy:
Catastrophe 4ww
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures or lands. Creatures destroyed this way cannot be regenerated.

I noticed some people were trying to play Armageddon alongside Wrath. Especially with Prisons, Suppression Field and Trinispheres, Armageddon can be in some cases a stronger play then Wrath, although you may need the Wrath effect if you don't have the correct lock pieces in play. So why don't you keep your options open? Obvious argument would be the added costs of Catastrophe, so maybe adding some (like 3 in total) mirrodin Talismans or even Guardian Idols wouldn't be a bad idea. This would also give the deck some more 2 mana drops and give some resiliance towards Wastelands in the early turns.

Would it make stax any better?

Machinus

12-31-2006, 09:42 PM

Geeba

01-03-2007, 08:26 AM

Crovax is an interesting suggestion. Which state-based effect occurs first, the second -1/-1, or the legend rule?

Regarding the white drop of honey: Chalice 1 is such a central and powerful part of this deck that even StP isn't in it. I think StP is better than this in Legacy, so I don't think it's worth it.

You're probably right about the drop.

I rather thought about Crovax as a one-off. As I thought of it as a replacement for WoG and playing the second Crovax gives you a weak WoG effect for 2 cards and 12 mana, I thought adding a second Crovax wouldn't be worth it, as the second Crovax is always worse than a WoG. (Except when the board is cluttered with indestructable 2/2's...)

On a side note, what is the consensus about Mishra's Factory vs. Rishadan Port? I understand the meta should be considered, so against which matchups you'd rather have the one over the other? (Sorry if this already has been adressed in this thread, I just quickly browsed through it...)

Goblin Snowman

01-20-2007, 08:59 PM

Bane of the Living

01-24-2007, 05:56 PM

Does anyone else think that Magus of the Tabernacle is going to be at least testable? 3W for a 2/5 Tabernacle is teh hot in my opinion, easily castable, able to block Werebear and Nimble Moongoose all day long, killing Goblins, ect. And being a Tabernacle. Post PC list I'm thinking about running

4x Smokestack
4x Armageddon
3x Trinisphere
3x Crucible
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Tabernacle - I'm counting this as a lock piece since it's out of all non-swords removal range, and cannot be realisticly killed by creatures.
1x Crovax/Angel/Dragon
4x Wrath of God
4x Ghostly Prison

4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
6x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trolkair
1x Tabernacle

Any thoughts? This is a pretty rough list off the top of my head.

EDIT: Also, does Voidstone Gargoyle merit consideration? My only problem with him is that he's a 3/3 for 5, but being able to Meddling Mage in Stax has it's appeal.

Planar Chaos has shown some promising cards for the deck. Its offering as far as I can see..

Voidstone Gargoyle
Crovax Ascendant Hero
Magus of the Tabernacle

These need to match up against Exalted Angel.

So we have the angels benifit of smashing for 4 on turn 2. Its life gain, and its evasion.

Voidstone Gargoyle does a couple things I like alot. It flies, and it shuts off a threat. Its hard to determine his use in Stax because I cant think of a card I want to shut off more than Aether Vial. Paying 5 to do so may be too late of an answer. The ability to stop Pernicious Deed is nice if your finding it in your meta. His use against combo decks shouldnt be overlooked however. A deck like Belcher will surely scoop to this beast since they can in no way kill it. Nor can many other storm based decks when they need to fight through your other array of anti combo tools. Another value is multiple copies. Eventually you can lock your opponent out of options by naming large scale threats. Sea Drake and Exalted Angel often give me problems If I cant limit my opponents mana sources on time. As does Eternal Dragon by providing the plains to get by my mana strain and providing a recurring threat through Wrath of God. If these situations sound familiar to your experiences with Angel Stax its obvious he deserves some play.

What interests me about Crovax the most is his ability to avoid death. The price of 2 life may be a strain with Ancient Tomb already in the deck, without Exalted also, but how aluring is it to return him eot and Wrath the board clean. From there redrop him and cause more havic. There have been many games where Angel sat on the table and I was forced to Wrath before things got out of hand. The weenie frying effect has me curious obviously. You can breakdown alot of armies by taking that point of toughness away. He can beat up on anything non-white and live to tell about it. From Werebears to Sea Drakes, to Myr Enforcer. His Engineered Plague effect could simply win the game when he hits the table against gobs. He should at least go into the sb against decks with lots of one toughness creatures.

Magus looks really nice in versions playing Ghostly Prisons and Armageddon. the taxing effect of Tangle Wire becomes much larger with this guy out, and like mentioned his toughness of 6 is impossible to break. Not being legendary is huge since multiples will surely seal a game.

Its worth noting Ive won several games on the back of the lock pieces the deck contains and not by dealing 20 damage. To this degree each aforementioned creatures does more for that aspect of the deck. Providing more challenges for the opponent to come out from under a lock. Each should be tested.

A good experiment would be to see how many creaures we can add without taking Wrath of God's effect away from the deck. Crovax does this beautifully. I would guess WoG's could go down to 3 if Magus goes into the deck in multiples.

kicks_422

01-24-2007, 07:39 PM

With Magus, Crovax, Ghostly Prison and Armageddon, does the deck still need WoG?...

Silverdragon

01-25-2007, 04:23 AM

Crovax has one big weakness and that's his manacost. Generally speaking you want your anti-aggro tools as fast as possible and six mana even in a deck like this is far too slow imho. Magus of the Tabernacle on the other hand is fantastic and could easily replace Wrath of God. Not only is he good on his own but he makes Ghostly Prisons, Tangle Wires and Armageddons that much stronger.

Goblin Snowman

01-25-2007, 12:33 PM

If I were to drop WOG from the list I'd add in 1 more Tabernacle, one more Win, and 2 Windborn Muse. Yeah, it's pretty creature heavy but they all rock. I'll try and get this list tested once I can pick up some Magi. Another card that I feel should be looked at is Drop of Honey. Yes, Chalice is our strongest play, but it just eats every problematic creature that's not a manland. With this many threats, I feel confidant that dropping Factory for Port is the right call.

jazzykat

01-25-2007, 01:12 PM

I have long been wanting to run drop of honey in stax. Now that it's white it takes away the "but you need green" argument.

My question/thinking on the matter is that chalice at 1 was always the no brainer brutalizer that made us not run STP and rule out Drop of Honey. It made the Solidarity and Threshold matchups ridiculously good (It also hurt a lot of other decks). But we would then lose to random stuff and goblins.

Maybe we should relegate Chalice to the Board and run the Nodes of Prophyry (spelling) maindeck.

I feel that Magus of the Tabernacle while brutal does not let you just win like an angel and it would die earlier to a Nodes of Prophyry making it suck dick vs. thresh, although you would be indifferent vs. goblins.

Also, Magus requires a stronger comittment to mana denial (Armageddon) and goes with the Ghostly Prison Strategy.

I propose that testing should be done with Chalice and Magus of the Tabernacle MD and another version that runs Nodes and Angel.

I also propose DOJ as a possible kill, smokestack fodder card in the current versions which run neither Tabernacles, nor Nodes.

Lastly, after many months of consideration I am convinced that some UW build will show itself to be optimal despite being in 2 colors and making yourself really vulnerable to wasteland the power of both Thirst for Knowledge and Meditate are undeniable. Also with the new black flash card coming on line I have a feeling one of the main wasteland toting decks (loam variants will face a brutal decline).

Oh, and even though its card disadvantage (w/o a crucible or a well timed smokestack to sac it to) how cool is Mana Vortex, expecially with Tabernacles, and propagandas!

emidln

01-25-2007, 02:17 PM

If you relegated Chalice to the side you could run Pithing Needle to help out the Solidarity/Threshold matchups (needling fetches) as well as have fewer dead cards against Goblins.

Goblin Snowman

01-25-2007, 03:04 PM

Faerie Stompy runs Chalice with 1cc things. Since you only need to have one, you could run it as a two of or something. You could also make a monowhite Landstillish list with 4 Nodes, Tabernacles and quite a few sweepers. But considering it, I'd prefer Magus usually do to it having such a massive @ss. Only testing will tell, everyone chime in with how PC cards are working in your meta.

Bane of the Living

01-26-2007, 04:33 PM

jazzykat

01-26-2007, 04:58 PM

First off, breaking the rule of adding 1cc cards with Chalice is a mistake. The only 1cc card FS plays is a singleton Pithing Needle as a Trinket Mage target. Correct me if mistaken. We dont have that little engine going, adding any other 1cc card that needs to naturally be drawn is a hazard to our already terrible draw engine. Enlightened Tutor and Swords to Plowshares both arent good enough to bend this rule. Nodes is no exception at all.

Agreed. I believe either we make a version w/o chalice or w/o nodes.

This card isnt even that good. First off, you cant play the card with Wrath because when no creatures are in play it dies. Its simple enough to do this yourself with WoG or Smokestack or your opponent can simply be smart enough to let it die away, not playing a creature every turn. Try it, I swear it doesnt work out like your hoping.

If the opponent doesn't play a creature every turn then you are winning anyway. They are going down permanents and not playing any from there hand. Smokestack/Wire is going to affect something every turn and if it isn't a creature, it is an artifact or land most likely.

DoJ is bad in this deck since you cant generate the mana for a reasonable possition. The card will always be better replaced as a lock piece or Exalted.

I don't think bad is the word. Suboptimal in some situations is more appropriate. I feel that as a one of it provides a random ability to win. It should probably be another Angel.

Magus looks the most promising I admit, but what do people think about the Voidstone?

I think Voidstone does not help very much agaisnt goblins for its CC and that is what I am most concerned about.

Xero

01-26-2007, 07:37 PM

Bane of the Living

01-27-2007, 08:57 AM

This is the list I've been trying out. The Threshold match-up seems even better than the pre-PC list, especially post-board. Goblins seems a little better as well, especially if you can get multiple taxing effects in play.

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wasteland
8 Plains
1 Tabernacle

3 Windborn Muse
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon

4 Ghostly Prison

4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
4 Wrath of God
4 Rule of Law
3 Disenchant
2 Tormod's Crypt

What stands out the most is Wrath being in your sideboard. Did you give this deck a shuffle at all or are you just assuming you cant fit it with 9 creatures? Im very curious as to whether or not Magus can fit Wraths role. Sometimes I need Wrath to take care of Meddling Mage naming Smokestack or the other way around. Leaving just stack to clear him means you'll probably never play it. That makes thresh a worse matchup, not better. Taking Wrath out may not improve the goblin matchup either. When you sideboard it in, against goblins I presume, what are you taking out? Angel, Muse, or Magus?? If Wrath is a better option than any of those then you should be questioning to choice to play them in the maindeck anyways. Then again... combined with Magus Armageddon is WoG.

My problem with Armageddon is its terrible effect against goblins and thresh. Goblins because of Vial, Thresh because of their low low curve. Maybe all the taxing effects your playing with make Armageddon better against these two decks, but Muse is easily removed with Gempalm, unlike Ghostly Prison. Im quite interested to hear about your results.

Tangle Wire seems like it would be busted with Muse and Magus, have you tried it out yet?

Also could you squeeze in a copy of Tabernacle itself?

Xero

01-27-2007, 12:11 PM

I do have a copy of Tabernacle.
1 Tabernacle.
I haven't played a whole lot of games with this, but the Gro match-up does seem a bit better. For one thing, they'll usually name Wrath of God with Mage. Anyways, you can kill Mage with multiple taxing effects, especially with Wasteland and Armageddon. You could be rights about Wrath of God being needed in the maindeck.

Noman Peopled

02-12-2007, 01:53 AM

Hey, I picked up the deck a while ago, and am now doing it again.

First, my two cents about PC:
I agree Drop of Porphyry shouldn't be included. It's very good early game when it slows down aggro significantly, but a number of other lock pieces do that as well - at least to an extent that makes Wrath of God a fast enough solution. In fact, Aether Vial in the early game worries me a great deal more than Golin's speed without it.

Crovax is a very narrow and slow answer to Goblins. At that cost, chances are you have some kind of lock thingy going and Exalted Angel does just as well. Or Wrath. Catastrophe seems less powerful situationally and more powerful overall.

Magus of the Tabernacle is a new pet card of mine, but I just can't find a place for it. It seems to me that it's too reliant on mana denial. On the plus site, it will be named for MMs less often than Wrath. Maybe a split? I was thinking about playing it with Armageddon main, it can attack, and needs only one white, but I just can't find anything I'd be comfortable cutting in the matchups I'd need it in.
It has some advantages over Tabernacle itself, though; it doesn't waste a land drop, it's a 2/6 blocker, it can attack for a way faster clock when combined with Angels or randomly gnaw away at the opponent's life total, and it's immune to Wasteland (VG). On the other hand, it's a tad slower (though probably fast enough most of the time), it can be more easily killed by decks that aren't its primary target and also by VG/w, it requires upkeep (not to forget Angels and, even worse, other Magi), and it can neither be pitched for Mox nor recurred with Crucible.

Definitely all three should be tested, though.

Given my inadequate experience with the deck, I have two questions:
1) How much of a problem is reusable gy-removal (mainly Wretch)? In other words, how does the deck fare when it can't use Stack/Crucible as a lock mechanism?
and
2) I had some problems with Sacred Ground in the past, and I'm looking for a better way to play around it beyond the measly three Aura Fractures in the side. One thing that springs to mind is to lay Karmic Justice, then force them to kill something you control, but that seems risky. Specifically, how can we destroy or otherwise eliminate Sacred Ground reliably and early, so it doesn't end up buying the opponent tons of time? Or is Wire/Chalice/3Sphere/Field (against fetchies) enough to buy us time so we can draw Fracture or the more unstable Justice plan? Playing Angels as removal bait sucks (//edit: Jeez, Karmic Justice doesn't even work with Angels ...), especially when your opponent had enough time to draw Swords and build the appropriate mana and can eliminate Chalice through counterspell action. Not to forget Meddling Mages for Angel or Chalice ...

Bane of the Living

02-12-2007, 06:30 PM

1) How much of a problem is reusable gy-removal (mainly Wretch)? In other words, how does the deck fare when it can't use Stack/Crucible as a lock mechanism?
and
2) I had some problems with Sacred Ground in the past, and I'm looking for a better way to play around it beyond the measly three Aura Fractures in the side. One thing that springs to mind is to lay Karmic Justice, then force them to kill something you control, but that seems risky. Specifically, how can we destroy or otherwise eliminate Sacred Ground reliably and early, so it doesn't end up buying the opponent tons of time? Or is Wire/Chalice/3Sphere/Field (against fetchies) enough to buy us time so we can draw Fracture or the more unstable Justice plan? Playing Angels as removal bait sucks (//edit: Jeez, Karmic Justice doesn't even work with Angels ...), especially when your opponent had enough time to draw Swords and build the appropriate mana and can eliminate Chalice through counterspell action. Not to forget Meddling Mages for Angel or Chalice ...

1) This kinda depends whether or not your playing a version with Suppression Field. If your trying to fit magus you should be playing it to maximize the tax effect. Its rather costly to pay 2B to take a land out of your yard. Especially if theyre trying to keep ahead with smokestack out. SF helps take care of vial amazingly which is another card you mentioned problems with. I know machinus swapped from SF to Powder Keg, but I think suppression field deals with it an a more permanant basis. Not to mention you have a near auto win if someone drops survival. The final push for the choice is definitly magus. I dont know about you guys... but I picked my four up.

The deck can drop Smokestack and not ramp the counters till your ready, never forget that. As long as the deck is running the standard 4 non perm cards (WoG) you can put a counter on smokestack safely whether or not you have crucible. You'll eventually draw into it while you play and sac a perm a turn. This sounds scary but just remember how much worse it is for your opponent. When you get crucible out, push smokestack to two counters!! No deck can keep up with the card loss and you can with a crucible land an the perm you draw each turn. Easily. Thats won 5 times more games for me than angel.

2) I doubt Sacred Ground will be enough of a problem for you to need dedicated sideboard. You probably just had a bad couple games against a card thats solid against you. If you need help look to Disenchant. Seal is better but only if your not playing SF. The rest of this sounds like problems you'll fix just by playing the deck more often. You learn how to deal with problems like mage and needle effectivly with time.

Machinus

02-12-2007, 07:35 PM

The reason I stopped using SF is due to the fact that the deck really cant afford to leave permanents on the board when the metagame is 90% 1-drops. Keg is very slow, but it has high synergy with everything in the deck and is versatile.

Graveyard removal is not really an issue. The only thing you are recurring is lands, and you shouldnt ever run out of those.

As for Magus - it has potential, but I'm wary of any card that doesn't solidly support Wrath. If you are actually going to cut Wrath, you need at least four more taxing or anti-creature effects to go along with Magus. The problem is that these effects don't end up having synergy and versatility. The casting cost of the card is awesome and it's very resilient, but you're really changing the focus of the deck without a powerful catch-all like Wrath.

Without some way of destroying multiple permanents at once, I think the deck loses a lot of strength. I would have to replace Wrath with something else, like Armageddon. Here's an example decklist I just came up with:

4 Magus
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Static Orb/Trinisphere

4 Powder Keg
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mox Diamond

7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
3 Flagstones of Trokiar
4 Mishra's Factory

The biggest advantage to this decklist is a lower curve and way more explosive manabase. Other than that, it has problems with life total and cards that don't work by themselves.

Silverdragon

02-12-2007, 11:51 PM

Lately I've been getting good testing results with the following list:

4 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Plains
3 Mishras Factory
1 Wasteland

SB
4 Suppression Field
4 Defense Grid
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Pithing Needle

Exalted Angel is just too strong to be cut. Going 1st turn Morph, 2nd turn unmorph, (3rd turn Armageddon) randomly wins games and whenever you have a Magus out and get an Angel you should either be able to pay the cost for both or just let the Magus die and win with your Angel.
1 Wasteland is in the deck to keep a chance of getting Wastelock online. Although this deck doesn't need Wastelock to win most games it's still nice to get it going so you don't need a Smokestack. Besides having 8 Win Conditions in the form of Angels and Magi we don't need a full set of Factorys anymore to win in time. However they're still great especially with Crucible in many situations.
In theory the matchup against Goblins should be about even because they can attack you from many different angles and sometimes just overwhelm you with a good draw. However Magus + Ghostly Prison and Magus -> Armageddon are not to be underestimated and replace Wrath of God quite well. Postboard you bring in Suppression Field and Needles for 4 Chalice and 3 Trinisphere. I've tried Keg instead of SF before but in testing SF was better because Keg doesn't help you protect your lands from their Wastelands and Ports and to a lesser extend can't keep you safe from being shot out of the game at low life by Fanatics and SGC's. It also doesn't stop Gempalm Incinerator from Cycling to find more lands or shoot your creatures although that is a minor concern. Another positive sideeffect of SF is that it gets harder for them to use their fetchlands.
I think the match against Goblins has changed from a "destroy your stuff, watch you rebuild and destroy it again" view to a "look, the only things you can play don't matter" view. I don't know what approach is better but when testing the deck I definately felt more comfortable than before.
Against High Tide and Thresh you still have the Chalices, Trinispheres and Smokestacks that own them pretty hard together and you also get the power of Armageddon against Tide plus 4 more beaters to apply preasure or hold the fort against Thresh. After boarding you bring in 4 Defense Grid for the Ghostly Prisons against Tide and take out the Armageddons instead against Thresh.

Seal of Cleansings are in the board because I see many Sacred Grounds postboard (currently I play High Tide at tourneys but nonetheless I'm still called "that guy with the Smokestacks" ;)). If you don't have that problem go ahead and play Powder Keg or Karmic Justice instead. Hanna's Custody might also be good to protect your more important artifacts from Disenchant.

Noman Peopled

02-13-2007, 10:53 AM

Thanks for the info.

I'm playing Suppression Field simply because I expect lots of fetchlands and because it slows many abilities you mentioned that might otherwise be problematic.
Maximizing the Magus's tax-effect is a no-brainer, and Suppression Field plays into that neatly (as does half of the deck :) ).

Dropping zero-counter Stacks is of course a common option, but I'd still prefer not doing so if possible. Judging from your answer, it seems that the deck is perfectly capable of going to one without Crucible.

The reason for my mentioning Sacred Ground is twofold: I hate auto-losing or almost auto-losing to single cards; and I have very good reason to expect it at an upcoming event. Another problematic enchantment that has occured to me is a fast Leyline of the Void, but I guess sacrificing a perm a turn is still a viable plan (especially since many of our lock-pieces slow Iggy down significantly).
Sacred Ground, however, allows my opponent to stay in the game, which is instrumental in playing around 3sphere, Ports, and Field. Chalice seems good though.

Thanks again for the help, I'm gonna post more after playing a bit.

Jak

02-13-2007, 01:04 PM

@ Silverdragon
I really like your list. I think it is the best one I have seen and am interested in testing it. I also think dropping angel is a bad idea because it is such a strong win condition.

Silverdragon

02-15-2007, 01:29 AM

After a bit of testing I made a small change to the sideboard. I replaced the Seal of Cleansing with 3 Karmic Justice and the 4th Needle.
There's only a single artifact/enchantment that you are afraid of and that's Sacred Ground. In every other situation Karmic Justice is far superior because this deck can really get into trouble if the opponent manages to destroy key lockpieces with Naturalize or even worse something like Harmonic Sliver (yeah tested against 3c Countersliver and could not win a single game when it got this badass guy into play).
I also have some more matchup analysis and a few tips playing the deck. I'll write it up and edit in when I'm done.
Ok this may have gotten a bit long anyway here are my thoughts on some matchups:
Goblins:
Against Goblins preferably mulligan into a hand with Ghostly Prison. It's obvious why this card is good however the really important part is that it keeps their Piledrivers small enough. Don't hesitate to throw a morphed Angel in the way of a Piledriver or even Warchief. If you can trade with a SGC it's even better. If you don't suspect artifacthate coming soon then play out Crucible as fast as possible followed by Smokestack and Trinisphere last. If they've already got a Tinkerer bait with Smokestack because Crucible is far more important.
Postboard is about the same strategy. Hold off early beats and try to keep your life as high as possible. Get Suppression Fields and Prisons out first unless you think they've got Disenchant or Naturalize then bait with Crucible. Remember to not manascrew yourself (sounds a bit stupid but with City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb it's sometimes not that easy to keep your mana going.)
Solidarity (High Tide):
Against High Tide I'll repeat the last sentence: Don't manascrew yourself. Mulliganing for a stable Manabase is far more important than mulliganing for hate. Of course you should look for stuff like Trinisphere, Chalice etc in your opening hand however High Tide normaly won't go off before turn 4 and with a single Chalice or Trinisphere resolved they can go off turn 5 at earliest. (I know there might be exceptions but from my testing they'd involve multiple Tides, Resets and most of the time a third turn Cwish for bounce so it's unlikely.) I lost multiple games where I played a hand that had something like 1 Chalice, 1 Ancient Tomb, 2 Armageddon, 2 Smokestack, 1 Exalted Angel.
Threshold (most tested agains UGw with Mage):
Against Threshold when you're on the play whenever possible go for the turn 1 Chalice. Either they have Force or they just lose. If that's not an option remember to play around Daze and try to get Crucible into play. Crucible will not only help you play Armageddon with much less to worry about but also makes your Manlands far stronger. Under no circumstances should they be able to play Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon. Always use your Wasteland on Tundras or Volcanics. Again liberally use your Angel as a chumpblocker. The only thing that can really screw you is a Meddling Mage on whatever you're currently holding followed by an Enforcer to kill you in 2-3 turns.
A last tip for the poor Thresholdplayer: Remember that your Werebears produce mana too and don't get that stupid idea to pay the alternate casting cost of Daze when there's a Trinisphere in play ;)
Hope this was helpful. Thanks for the attention :)

Bane of the Living

02-15-2007, 09:59 AM

I think 3 geddons would probably be enough since theyre sub par without your other forms of lock against almost every deck. Id also drop one magus or angel and add 2 tangle wire.

Citrus-God

02-15-2007, 10:19 AM

Heres my take on the deck...

// Mana 28
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
7 Plains

// Creatures 6
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells 27
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Wrath of God
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard 15
1 Exalted Angel
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Armageddon
3 Hanna's Custody
3 Defense Grid
4 Seal of Cleansing

Mehh... cheers to hardly playtesting this deck. I'm gonna get back into it now...

Silverdragon

02-15-2007, 11:29 AM

As I said before against anything aggro I'd never play less than 4 Angels MD. Uh I mean against anything closely resembling a deck I'd never play less than 4 Angels MD :)
They can win games on their own without much backup and even help you cast stuff by negating Tomb damage. I've played with only 3 Angels for a long time but now that I play 4 MD I'd never cut one again unless WotC prints an even better finisher/utility/defense card. Maybe I'm a bit biased because they won so many games for me so feel free to cut one if you don't need a full set MD. I just wanted to make it clear that I won't :P
On to another point, I'd say that my deck differs greatly from your deck Anti~American4621 because we have a different focus/view or strategy altogether (don't know exactly how to call it). What I mean is that your deck looks more like the classic Angelstax simply replacing Tangle Wire/Powder Keg with the superior creature hate that is Magus. My build however is not build around Magus of the Tabernacle but around Armageddon. That's why I play 4 Crucible of Worlds and 4 Flagstones of Trokair and that's also why I've cut down to only a single Wasteland. So @bane_of_the_living I also can't see me replacing one of the keycards of the deck with the inferior Tangle Wire soon ;)
As Machinus rightly said "Without some way of destroying multiple permanents at once, I think the deck loses a lot of strength. I would have to replace Wrath with something else, like Armageddon." So my replacement for Wrath is not Magus but Armageddon and the whole deck is build to support the card.
That doesn't mean that you absolutely need to resolve one every match, in fact you often just play the normal "Staxgame" of Trini -> Crucible -> Stack however after resolving Armageddon you should almost always win.
Another point that I totally agree with Machinus is "you're really changing the focus of the deck without a powerful catch-all like Wrath." and as I said earlier the focus really has changed. Wrath is only usable as a means to stay alive against aggro so almost the whole rest of the deck had to be build to stop them from playing new stuff. Armageddon singlehandedly stops them from playing anything after it resolves so a big part of the deck can be devoted to staying alive.
Both approaches have their pros and cons but I really like how you're able to imitate Wrath with a Magus or Ghostly Prison so for now I'll stay by my list.
btw please don't be offended when I criticise you because this is my petdeck so I might overreact a bit sometimes :)

ExplosPlankton

02-19-2007, 12:14 AM

Im very interested in running white stax /w Magus of the Tabernacle and without Angel because Angel doesnt have much synergy with Magus and I want to build the deck around Magus. I think 4 Factories + Magus is good enough for the win without angel and I like how manlands dodge the upkeep cost that Magus imposes on creatures. Im not saying that magus + armageddon and other synergistic pieces is better than running WoG and Angel but its a fun, viable alternative. I dont really think angel and magus should be run together so if I were to run the full 4 angel, I would go back to using 4 WoG and cut armageddon. Magus and armageddon only have a single W in their casting cost so that allows us to run more colorless sources without being afraid of not hitting double W by turn 4. This is the list im thinking about running:

Mana Sources 28

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mox Diamond
6 Plains

Creatures 4

4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells 28

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 SmokeStack
4 TangleWire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon

Sideboard

4 Suppression Field
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Hanna's Custody/Karmic Justice
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

I would really like to fit Suppression Field into the Maindeck to maximize on the "taxing" theme of the deck but I dont see any room for it unless I go down to 3 on a few of the lock pieces for ~3-4 SF. Is it worth maindecking in this build or does SF belong in the sideboard?
Its possible that 4 Armageddon is too many and if I were to go down to 3, I would add a single Angel or use that space in conjuction with other cuts for SF.
Is 6 Plains enough to support 4 Flags or should I go down to 3? I dont see any reason not to run 4 Flags so If 7 is better, I could cut the single tabernacle for another plains. Tabernacle is another iffy slot as it fits in perfectly with Magus but I know most stax builds have cut it because its a wasted land drop. Does the synergy with this build warrant its inclusion or should that be wasteland #3/plains#7 ?

ExplosPlankton

02-19-2007, 12:14 AM

Tacosnape

02-26-2007, 08:39 PM

Id like to take this moment and harp on how bad Nodes really is.

First off, breaking the rule of adding 1cc cards with Chalice is a mistake. The only 1cc card FS plays is a singleton Pithing Needle as a Trinket Mage target. Correct me if mistaken. We dont have that little engine going, adding any other 1cc card that needs to naturally be drawn is a hazard to our already terrible draw engine. Enlightened Tutor and Swords to Plowshares both arent good enough to bend this rule. Nodes is no exception at all.

This card isnt even that good. First off, you cant play the card with Wrath because when no creatures are in play it dies. Its simple enough to do this yourself with WoG or Smokestack or your opponent can simply be smart enough to let it die away, not playing a creature every turn. Try it, I swear it doesnt work out like your hoping.

Why not just play Nodes in the sideboard?

The thing you have to realize about Nodes is, it's not a bad thing to remove one creature with it. If you get a slow draw, it takes down a Mongoose at the expense of the 1 damage you're going to take from it. Against Goblins, they either have to elect not to drop a goblin with their Lackey trigger, or walk into the disastrous combination of Turn 1 Nodes/Turn 2 Ghostly Prison. It lets you deal with turn one giants from Reanimator at the cost of only one hit. Most importantly, when you -don't- get the amazing openings (esp. when you're on the draw), it's a one-drop that forces your opponent to either slow down or commit to a berserk rage. Slowing them down is good, as it gets you time for your lock. If they commit to a berserk rage, you get to laugh as either Ghostly Prison, Tangle Wire, or even Armageddon rips them to shreds.

The fascinating reason I believe Nodes and Chalice can both work in this deck, though never in the maindeck at the same time, is this. Chalice of the Void is at its absolute strongest on the play, with turn one Chalices. Nodes is at its absolute strongest on the draw.

Let's look at a random match featuring creatures. Say, Goblins. The classic match to examine.

Against Goblins on the play, Chalice >> Nodes. You can't drop it turn one ever. Here you want Chalice of the Void, because turn one Chalice for 1 causes headaches for Goblins. They'll have to dig for a Tin-Street/Tinkerer or Krosan Grip it, and by that time you're setting up your pieces.

Against Goblins on the draw, Nodes >> Chalice. You aren't going to get a whole lot of use out of Chalice if they get a first turn to drop Vial or Lackey, but if they drop a Lackey and you have a Nodes, you put them on the decision. Either they cut their tempo, or they walk into stall where Nodes crushes them. You win either way.

So if you board Nodes based on who won the last game, the concept doesn't seem that unfeasible.

EDIT: Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Karn, Silver Golem? The concept of attacking with hordes of Trinispheres and Smokestacks makes me giddy, and it seems the ability to create creatures mid-turn would be ideally synergistic with Magus of the Tabernacle.

georgjorge

02-27-2007, 04:51 AM

Just a short note, playing two Ravages of War and two Armageddons instead of four 'Geddons will improve your list by 0.3% at least because of Meddling Mage and Therapy :wink:

kicks_422

02-27-2007, 07:24 AM

Is there a reason this deck doesn't run Karn, Silver Golem? The concept of attacking with hordes of Trinispheres and Smokestacks makes me giddy, and it seems the ability to create creatures mid-turn would be ideally synergistic with Magus of the Tabernacle.

Because attacking with Trinispheres negates the whole point of playing them. Also, it doesn't really add anything to the deck besides a beater (and creating lots of them), which is literally the last thing the deck needs.

jazzykat

02-27-2007, 11:50 AM

Why not just play Nodes in the sideboard?
The fascinating reason I believe Nodes and Chalice can both work in this deck, though never in the maindeck at the same time, is this. Chalice of the Void is at its absolute strongest on the play, with turn one Chalices. Nodes is at its absolute strongest on the draw.

Let's look at a random match featuring creatures. Say, Goblins. The classic match to examine.

Against Goblins on the play, Chalice >> Nodes. You can't drop it turn one ever. Here you want Chalice of the Void, because turn one Chalice for 1 causes headaches for Goblins. They'll have to dig for a Tin-Street/Tinkerer or Krosan Grip it, and by that time you're setting up your pieces.

Against Goblins on the draw, Nodes >> Chalice. You aren't going to get a whole lot of use out of Chalice if they get a first turn to drop Vial or Lackey, but if they drop a Lackey and you have a Nodes, you put them on the decision. Either they cut their tempo, or they walk into stall where Nodes crushes them. You win either way.

I think you have hit upon a viable way to run nodes. When I looked at drop of honey a long time ago I thought OMG this is the nutz. It slows people down or they just keep feeding dudes into it. I asked myself, how can I lose if they are saccing a creature every turn or better yet not playing anything. It also gives you a 1 mana play because even though we all want stax to have 2 mana on turn 1 it doesn't always happen and if I have a perfectly normal 3 mana hand that gets me on 3 mana turn 3 I am not going to mulligan it away because this deck is uber inconsistent and I would rather make all my land drops.

My distaste lately comes from Armageddon. While its "Kewl" with ghostly prison and Magus of the Tabernacle I don't feel like it does enough alone (Except against solidarity :B). Since I am capable of the worst draws with this deck I feel like Wrath may still be the way to go because if you wrip a wrath off the top there are dead bodies everywhere! I put my Geddons in the board.

I think that we should consider pushing this into 2 colors RW and playing wildfire(Wrath+Geddon) + Angel. We can play 4 flagstones, a few plains, plateaus, a couple of sacred foundries?, and 1 mountain, and a couple of fetches. If someone has enough balls to wasteland a stax deck's land when I am going to hit 1 of 4 crucibles and am planning to cast wildfire then they can go right ahead.

Lastly, while I know it may not be the best how does everyone feel about sphere of resistance? Especially in a geddony build?

Tacosnape

02-27-2007, 12:20 PM

I think that we should consider pushing this into 2 colors RW and playing wildfire(Wrath+Geddon) + Angel. We can play 4 flagstones, a few plains, plateaus, a couple of sacred foundries?, and 1 mountain, and a couple of fetches. If someone has enough balls to wasteland a stax deck's land when I am going to hit 1 of 4 crucibles and am planning to cast wildfire then they can go right ahead.

There's a card with both a Wrath and a Geddon effect already in this deck: Armageddon. Combined with Magus of the Tabernacle or Ghostly Prison it's pretty saucy, and I find I have no problem just not playing more mana than is necessary to get to 2WW at any moment in time, since 2WW casts everything in the deck. This allows me to still recover if I don't/can't get a Crucible out for some reason.

sammiel

03-04-2007, 01:13 PM

Here's the list im tinkering with atm. Still refining the MD and SB, and the exact count of creatures. Hell, even the lands are still up in the air.

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Armageddon
2x Ravages of War
2x Return to Dust

3x Exalted Angel
3x Magus of the Tabernacle

SB

3x Sacred Ground
4x Suppression Field
4x Static Orb
4x Porphyry Nodes

This is the basic framework that I tinker around with. The biggest thing I'm unsure of in the MD is Return to dust. It's rarely dead, it's at a casting cost that makes it unaffected by chalice and 3sphere, its an instant but pulls double duty at sorcery speed. The RFG portion is mostly irrelevant, but occasionally matters.

With the increased focus on mana taxing in the deck, I'd really like to find a spot for MD suppression field, but I really don't know where to put it. I feel uncomfortable cutting the creatures down any farther than 3 of each.

The SB is experimental atm, the only guaranteed slot is suppression field unless I find a spot in the MD for it.

I'm also experimenting with a green splash, borrowing a couple elements of Sun Tower, but Sun Tower seems to have more of a focus on disruptive bombs, whereas the way im running Angel Stax, its focusing more on the mana attrition game. Still, I would love to have sylvan library for some improved card quality.

I think the focus on mana denial is still viable against the more heavily played decks in the format, but it also works better against alot of the random crap you run into in the early rounds of a tournament.

Silverdragon

03-04-2007, 06:05 PM

So I have now tested my build for some time against pretty much everything from the top 3 to random jank and I have some interesting results.
First of all when you play a manacurve that looks like the one my list has you really want the 25th land so I added a second Wasteland and (as much as I hate to say it) I've cut down to 3 Angels once again.
Against Threshold you still have the trump card in Chalice but the match is in no way the complete blowout that it looks like on paper. With a draw just slightly above average Threshold can out-answer you and I've often found myself in a situation where I didn't have any threats left and had to topdeck my way out of a Bear beating me down.
Against High Tide Armageddon is sorely needed because otherwise you can't put enough pressure on the deck and it will just wait to wish for Rebuild or combo through your artifacthate.
Against Goblins you have a hard time game 1 when they manage to get in enough damage to shoot you down with Fanatic and SGC. However postboard unless you manascrew yourself it is really hard to lose. (Wasteland and Port don't affect you that much when you've got Mox Diamonds, Crucibles and basic Plains.)
The match against Pikula.dec comes down to you getting Crucible or Chalice@2 in a reasonable time and hope that they don't have the Vindicate. Karmic Justice can be great in this matchup but it won't make the matchup favorable overall.
Tendrils based Stormcombo is not that hard however remember to keep your Ghostly Prisons if you suspect Empty the Warrens.
Against various Survivalbuilds game one is only winnable if you can successfully attack their manabase with Armageddon and Chalice@1 to shut down Birds and Elves. Once they get going there's not much you can do. Again Suppression Field out of the board is really good, shutting down Survivaltricks.
The rest pretty much works like it looks on paper (Chalice@1 > Burn etc.) however one last note: always make sure you have 3W available by turn 3-4 or you'll just lose to yourself. I had this happen to me more than I liked and I even considered going up to 26 lands and getting the curve down a bit.

P.S. This deck really wants some way to get velocity/browse through more cards in a reasonable time like with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top or just about anything in this regard.

georgjorge

03-05-2007, 08:30 AM

So I have now tested my build for some time against pretty much everything from the top 3 to random jank and I have some interesting results....

I'm playing a deck which is very near the one you posted. What I want to ask you is, how are the Trinispheres for you ? Are they really necessary ? As it is, I'm thinking of dropping them for 2 additional Armageddons (Ravages of War) and 2 Powder Kegs, because Armageddon is the card you want to draw in every game, often multiples of it, and Kegs are great against small creatures.

Also, I think some graveyard hate in the sideboard is really necessary, because you really don't want a Life from the Loam, Crucible or Nether Spirit on your opponent's side rendering your land destruction and Smokestacks useless. I suggest Phyrexian Furnace, although for those matchups where you leave the Chalices in you obviously want something different.

P.S. This deck really wants some way to get velocity/browse through more cards in a reasonable time like with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top or just about anything in this regard.[/QUOTE]

Top would be great if it weren't for Chalice. The best solution I found is Bottled Cloister, which isn't really good enough since you want to play threats at four mana, not card draw. Maybe Jalum Tome, but paying two mana every turn is really a hassle.

jazzykat

03-05-2007, 09:38 AM

I am amazed with this deck. It is incosistent but the power of 1 card (chalice, 3sphere, tanglewire) are sometimes so powerful on their own that you can get away with randomness via the power level of what you are dropping.

Mind's Eye is another way to draw cards but at 5 mana and paying 1 mana for each card your opponent draws. However, people cry when you have mana open and they have brainstorm...if you haven't chaliced them off of it.

Silverdragon

03-05-2007, 12:17 PM

I'm playing a deck which is very near the one you posted. What I want to ask you is, how are the Trinispheres for you ? Are they really necessary ? As it is, I'm thinking of dropping them for 2 additional Armageddons (Ravages of War) and 2 Powder Kegs, because Armageddon is the card you want to draw in every game, often multiples of it, and Kegs are great against small creatures.

Trinisphere on its own is really weak against many decks however the same is true for Chalice (does nearly nothing against other Ancient Tomb based decks) but Trinisphere has the added benefit of making many of your cards so much stronger. In a field with less combo I'd cut down to 3 Chalice and 3 Trinisphere to add 2 Powder Keg for more removal.
I don't think you need 6 Armageddoneffects because as I've already said one will generally put you in a situation from where you're able to win easily and multiples will just sit in your hand. So far I'm fine with 4.
Oh and btw I'd play 4 Ravages of War instead of Armageddons if I had them because most people I've played don't even know this card exists and after game one against decks with Meddling Mages you board them out anyway.
Concerning the graveyardhate Ichorid-like cards have a hard time attacking through Ghostly Prison, and LftL gets owned by Chalice@2 so although its not pretty to play against these cards you already have good answers MD. Crucible and Sacred Ground are the only two cards that really mess up your gameplan (aside from stuff like Disenchant). That's the reason my first list had Seal of Cleansing in the board. There is a way around opposing Crucibles but you need to ramp up a Smokestack and follow it up with Armageddon so during their upkeep they don't have any lands to sac for Smokestack and hopefully have to throw the Crucible away.
Against Sacred Ground all you can do is play an Angel and beat down but when your meta goes this far to play Sacred Ground SB or even maindeck you shouldn't play this deck and instead own them with something like Solidarity or Thresh :)

sammiel

03-05-2007, 05:08 PM

Bane of the Living

03-05-2007, 06:25 PM

Ok guys, I know I said F this deck but I picked it up last minute for day two of The Mana Leak Open. People were saying combo was everywhere day one and knowing TES smashed everyone I figured there would only be more followers. First my list..

4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones
7 Plains
2 Mishras Factory
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Mox

4 3sphere
3 Crucible
4 Stack
4 CotV
3 WoG
3 Geddon
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Tabernacle
3 Angel
3 Magus

sb
2 Powder Keg
2 Sphere of Law
4 D Grid
2 Bottled Cloister
1 WoG
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Round one (Nantuko Shady)- Im playing against a familiar looking dude with a nametag that says Binswager. I ask him and he assures me he isnt Anusien. He says if I know his identity Ill know what he's playing. Hes suprised Im Bane but doesnt know what Im playing. Im notorious for that =) I believe I start the game and cast a turn one 3sphere. He drops island, I play CotV@1. He plays Island and discards Peek. I figured as much, he lets me know hes Nantuko Shady. Im looking good here with Tomb, Mox, flagstones, so before I make a land drop I geddon him. I then drop CotV@2 and 3 and he scoops.

Out WoGx3, Prisonx3
In Gridx4, Cloisterx2 (This was my Solidarity board all day)

My notes say 3sphere, Stack, Grid, scoop. I dont rememer any opposition.

2-0

Round 2 Josh
This guy is playing TES, I dont remember the early game but I had him locked under 3sphere, and CotV@1 very early. He actually gets up to 4 mana (no wastelands!) Burning Wish -> Meltdown. He combos and casts Plunge for all but one life for exactly 10 storm and tendrils me when im at 14.

Out WoGx3, Prisonx2
In Kegx2, Cloisterx2 ????? I may have brought in Sphere of Law.. I dont remember.

I get turn one CotV@1 which is his whole hand. He imprints 2 of them on Chrome Mox and I keg for 0. I redrop CotV at I think 2?? 3sphere and good game or something.

Game three on the play he combos out his whole hand for Warrens. He makes 10 goblins and passes the turn with a Chrome Mox, City of Ass, and his army. My turn one is Tabernacle. He loses all but 2 guys and starts beating on me. I waste his city and he hits me for one a turn for quite awhile while he sits under 3sphere. I get down Smokestack and Crucible but he doesnt concede. He makes me go through the motions and find guys to kill him.

2-0, 4-1

Round Three- Gaagooch
He opens with Faerie Conclave, I think I waste it. I play CotV and he plays Explosives for 0. Then I make the noobtastic play of dropping my Mox Diamond rather than playing the land. What a fool am I. He nukes them both and Im mana screwed.

Now its about this time Im FUCKING STARVING. All I could think of was food, I was thinking of food so much I forgot to sb. I know, I know... Even the wicked need rest.

Game three opens somewhat explosive for me with a turn two Crucible, I used Tomb and Wasteland to cast it. Next turn I drop a plains from my hand, SHITT!!!! Then waste his land. I probably couldve locked him out of the game if Id hit his two nonbasics that turn but no, Im a fool. He Stifles the next attempt to maul his manabase and sets explosives at 3. Now Im faced with some problems.. I could sit for a turn and do nothing, or drop my 3sphere, setting up for next turns geddon and forcing him to use explosives then and there so he couldnt play Standstill. So I play into explosives again, he counters my attempt at geddon, and slowly wins the game. I remember being somewhat mana screwed at that point and trying to decide between being more mana screwed and killing his factory, or dieing to it. I Waste it after taking about 8 from it but lose to Decree guys under his standstill.

2-1, 4-3
I go eat lunch, smoke a bowl, and get my game face back on.

Round 4 Gearhart
I go into this match pretty confidant. I already put down two combo decks, and Im ready to make up for my last terrible round 5 fold. This was the first chance I got to meet and talk to the man and Id like to start by saying hes not as much of a arrogant douche as some people make him out to be. We joked around a bunch and even had little discussions about the new Solidarity evolutions.

I think Im on the play and drop a first turn 3Sphere. Thank you Satan.
He frowns and starts playing Islands. I drop Chalice, then dont do too much else because I start drawing into Prison and WoGx2. He Wishes and Racks and Ruins me. He informs me Im the first victim of this inclusion. Sweet. He Remands me three times and gets to 8 lands. At this point Im at 4 thanks to double tombs. Before tapping another on my turn I consider his Wish->Sudden Shock kill and rethink it. It didnt matter because he still combos in my face, he gets a bunch of storm, casts Cunning Wish and I turbo scoop to it. He screams "NO YOU CANT TAKE IT FROM ME!!1!"

See Solidarity board above.

He tells me while we're shuffling that hes counting that as an Urzas Rage kill and I tell him thats fine because I would be the first for that too. What an honor.

I own with CoTV@1, I play Grid which also resolves. I play CoTV@3 ftw. He end of turn Echoing Truths them both which was an amazing play. He attempts to combo when I try to cast one again. He fumbles under the Grid. Theres no way he can go off with it. Casting Think Twice for 5 mana is not economical. I think I chuckle to myself as he Resets and profits 1 mana from it at some point.

Game 3 He plays island go. I play Grid first turn. It resolves. I play 3Sphere next turn. It resolves. I play Smokestack, it resolves as well. I but a counter on stack and play Geddon. He stares at it blankly and extends his hand. Awsome games.

3-1, 6-4

Round 4 Bigbear
I already know hes playing Survival which is a good match thanks to his high number of perms. He goes first and drops land, wally. I play Tomb, Mox x2, Smokestack. He plays a land and drops Viridian Zealot, go figure. I hate went survival draws there one ofs at oppertune times. I add a counter anyways play something irrelavant, or drop Exalted Angel. I dont remember. If I didnt drop angel that turn I dropped her the next. I think I decided to nuke my own stack that turn so Id have mana to hardcast her. I hit him with it once and after that he shows me some white mana and plays StP. I didnt know he had em.. He takes the game shortly after.

Out Geddonx3, ?
In WoGx1, Bridgex3

I get a turn 2 3sphere and drop a Chalice for two at some point to keep SotF away. Hes got a vial from his turn one ramping up and Krosan Grips a key smokestack. I remember having Tabernacle out for most of the game as well. He eventually finds Witness and grips the bridge I had him under. I drop another and he uses Genesis to get back the bitch to get back the grip again. He beats me down here and there and eventually takes it after a long game. He played flawless.

3-2, 6-6

I keep playing to make top 16.

Round 6 David
I saw this guy fishbowling Solidarity earlier so Im excited to trounce this deck again. I dont see much for notes, I remember getting a turn one CotV@1 and then play a morphed angel. I cant find white mana to unmorph it and he plays Cunning Wish for Rebuild. I hit him for a few turns with the morph and factory. Eventually he bounces my CotV and tried to combo in the face of the unmorphed angel. I have 3Sphere in hand with Chalice incase he just Turnabouts me. He fizzles, I win.

See Solidarity Board

I dont see any notes but I remember just tearing him apart with Grids, 3spheres, and Geddons.

4-2, 8-6

I eat combo for breakfast!

My list was great aside from staring at WoGs game one against combo all day. Thanks to Machinus for donating us this tier 2 deck. Keep working on it with us and get it tier one damnit!

Goblin Snowman

03-05-2007, 07:44 PM

If you know you're going to be facing tons of Solidarity/Combo, I'd really reccommend going -3 WoG +1 Angel +1 Geddon +1 Magus, since beaters are nice and Geddon is always good. Good job playing.

sammiel

03-05-2007, 08:38 PM

If you know you're going to be facing tons of Solidarity/Combo, I'd really reccommend going -3 WoG +1 Angel +1 Geddon +1 Magus, since beaters are nice and Geddon is always good. Good job playing.

this is the reason I pulled WoG from my decklist, its dead against tendrils and brainfreeze. EtW gets raped by Tabernacle effects and/or ghostly prison, whereas armageddon is still good against aggro if you have a prison or tabernacle effect in play. Armageddon also helps you against other decks with crucible, since you can geddon and force them to sac something other than a land to smokestack, which may be critical.

I am thinking about putting WoG back in the SB, but siege-gang commander is the only creature that really worries me when im playing stax, and sphere of law seems like a more versatile answer, since it helps against burn too.

Silverdragon

03-05-2007, 10:32 PM

I would never board out armageddon against a deck that runs meddling mage, 90% of the decks that run him are aggro-control and will have incredible trouble recovering from a resolved geddon. I run the 2/2 split and leave them in.

You are right that 90% (most likely more) of the decks running Mage are Aggro-Control however in my experience they do not have a hard time recovering from Armageddon unless you already have a solid lock down because these decks are designed to run on a low land count and some ******** lists even run Armageddon in the sideboard themselves.
Of course when you have a solid board Armageddon is as strong as always but you really want Defense Grid in this matchup to be able to set up a board and imho Armageddon is the weakest link so it gets boarded out.
In case you are worried about Thresh, Fish and Landstill-like decks you can always go back up to the full 4 Wasteland between MD and SB. They are still really good against anything with more than 2 colors :)

georgjorge

03-06-2007, 02:39 PM

I have had some great success with 2 Marble Diamond, as it increases your chances of going second turn Stack or Chalice for two or Magus. Just wanted to share.

Bane of the Living

03-10-2007, 11:27 AM

I was trying to come up with more crazy ideas for this deck. One new auto include to my board is now Rule of Law. Most of the cards you dont want to see are Shattering Spree, Meltdown, Rack and Ruin, and Rebuild. The two last out of Solidarity must be worked around to win the match. The best way to unfold is with a combination of Artifacts and Enchantments. Granted some weapons against you such as Serenity, Nev's Disc, or Deed ignore this change, the most importnant (Solidarity) will have a fit about it.

Ive also considered Leonin Abunas for the sb. He makes sure Krosan Grip doesnt mess up anything like Smokestack. The games Id bring him in are ones where I simply hope to lock the game position down. Angel can come out for him if you win game one, which the deck has a knack for doing. I played against Survival last week and got destroyed by Grip on my Smokestacks and Ensnaring Bridges, especially combined with Eternal Witness. The 3cc gets around Chalice obviously. The Abunas would assure Bridge stays out, making it quite a super scooper card. His toughness of 5 lets him live through Flame Tongue Kavu's, very key.

I also must stress the importance of running the full slate of 8 2mana lands. Not only for the degree of explosive turn ones, but to maximize your chances of getting CotV in play for 3. I've noticed this is the point most decks will scoop at. Cunning Wish cant be played to find answers to already existing problems. Krosan Grip and Deed cant be played. We should all be sticking to the 8 land plan.

Goblin Snowman

03-10-2007, 03:47 PM

sammiel

03-10-2007, 04:05 PM

unless you badly want the body, why would you run leonin abunas over hannas custody?

I've been sampling a more traditional angel stax build compared to the heavy mana-denial focus I previously had, and with the green splash for sylvan library. Library is great, but im not sure that the splash is worth it for 3md cards and 2 SB cards. Most of the stuff I want is white, I just wish white had a playable card quality permanent. its actually tempting to give something like scroll rack a try.

Bane of the Living

03-10-2007, 04:33 PM

It is the body Abunas provides that sets him apart from Custody. I hate that card since it does nothing on its own and I usually didnt know when to cast it. If you cast it before your artifacts you completely waste a turn, especially if they dont have a removal card anyways. Against aggro that can be detrimental. If you cast your important artifacts first they can obviously be blown up in response to Custody. Abunas makes this alittle easier on us because he's an amazing blocker. He puts up some defense while creating a bad situation for your opponent. He's got a great mana cost for the deck just like magus. He's also another clock which is stellar in this deck. Whether its dealing 2 or 4 damage.

I dont think any splash is worth it in this deck. As far as card drawing I feel Bottled Cloister works best. It does ridiculous things with Ensnaring Bridge, assuring you dont have a hand on your opponents turn, then drawing you extra cards so your exalted probably can attack with bridge out on your turn. It also hides our hands from discard decks, a general weakness for us. I suggest you guys give it a try. It really looks mediocre until it hits play. Library might seem effective since its cheap but this deck doesnt need cheap spells, 3-4cc is fine because of our fast mana. Cloister actually draws you cards, Library is card selection unless your paying a bunch of life, something I dont recommend.

The only reason Im against Glowrider is because Solidarity can still go off with him out. They will still EOT Rebuild you and just go off with him on the table. Rule of Law still needs to be cleared off the board to combo off. Aside from that he's good.

Silverdragon

03-27-2007, 09:07 PM

Gotta take this thread back to page 1 with some updates on the list I posted earlier. Mainly changes to the sideboard but also some tweaks to the mainboard.
As I said earlier I took out 1 Angel for land number 25 and I also cut one of the Factories for another Wasteland weakening my Goblins Matchup by a bit (one less answer to Lackey) but improving my Threshold matchup further.
So far Damping Matrix was never really needed against Goblins. Suppression Field was enough 99% of the time to stop them cold. In testing the only games I lost were those with a turn 3 kill and me keeping a shitty hand or them drawing a ton of lands making most of my taxing effects too weak but that was expected (played mostly against a version with white, 24 lands and MD Disenchant).
I have to admit I don't understand why you'd want to board Rule of Law improving matchups that are already favourable (Storm Combo). Of course they can bring in hate and they will have answers to your stuff but they also need to resolve them before you've locked them out completely or even killed them. As far as my testing has shown me almost all combo matchups remain favourable after boarding (maybe the percentages get closer to 50) but I'd rather have stuff in my board against the unfavourable matchups.
Speaking of unfavourable matchups Deadguy or Red Death can really hurt you bad if they get to resolve a Ritual and/or Duress so I was looking for cards that improve this matchup. I tried Karmic Justice to protect my lands (and other stuff against Vindicate) but when I got to resolve Justice they'd just stop destroying lands and start to race my lock with their beaters which sadly was successful more often than not thanks to my Ancient Tombs. Then I tried Spiritual Focus but when I played this they just stopped attacking my hand with discard and started beating me down again. I also often found myself having a Chalice@2 already in play so I couldn't cast it while they were beating with Specter. After analysing the matches I lost so far I came to the conclusion that I just needed more ways to stop their guys. With Crucible, Flagstones, Moxen and 2 Mana-lands I could get around their LD and the only discard I really feared was Hymn if I was able to stop Specter with a creature of my own because Duress can't take my lands nor my Magi and Angels.
So as a desperate attempt I added Duskrider Falcon to the board and it did quite well. However there was still the problem of a Chalice @ 2 that countered it (together with minor problems like being to small for a damage race or even defending against 2 Specters).
Enter probably the weirdest cardchoice this deck has ever seen: Duskrider Peregrine.
Not only is it bigger than the Falcon taking down Specters in Combat even with an active Cursed Scroll on the opposing side it also gets around Chalice @ 2 and is a better clock in a damagerace. Of course this has its drawbacks namely that it is slow as hell to come into play but my testing has shown that it is still fast enough most of the time (barring those 1st turn Negator draws).
So now that I have explained how I got to add this guy to my sideboard I present to you my current Sideboard:
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
These are obvious against Thresh/Solidarity and Goblins
2 Wastelands
When I board out the Geddons against Thresh I replace 2 Flagstones with the last 2 Wastelands too. Against other decks with many nonbasics (Landstill or Truffle Shuffle) I take out 2 Factories to get the full set of Wastelands
3 Duskrider Peregrine
For those I usually board out 3 Trinisphere because they are not good synergy
2 Powder Keg/Engineered Explosives
Powder Keg is just randomly good against many cards you don't want to see played against you like Needle, Vial, Mana Elves or other low cc critters however be careful when boarding these in because often you'll weaken your main strategy by taking out cards like Armageddon or Smokestack.
Currently I'm experimenting with Engineered Explosives because they get around Chalice and you don't always have to wait to blow up higher cc stuff (higher means greater 0 :) )
With Mox Diamond you may be able to set them at 2 maybe even 3 once in a while.
So this has gotten a bit long :( I hope you read it anyway and give me some advise what I could do different especially with the slots against Deadguy and the Explosives.

Machinus

03-27-2007, 10:20 PM

I've been using explosives a lot lately and liking it. Against suicide decks I like to side in guys since they block and are very strong when backed up by CotV 1. Have you tried Dodecapod?

Silverdragon

03-28-2007, 01:04 PM

In theory Dodecapod has some problems because it doesn't fly (can't stop Specter) relies on the opponent hitting it with random discard to get maximum usage out of it, can be Vindicated and most of the time (if your opponent doesn't have Hymn or Specter) costs 4 mana.
Anyway I'll give it a try. Thanks for the tip.
Edit: I'll also try Sphere of Law in the Suppression Field slots although that weakens my Survival matchup and makes having 4 mana against Goblins much more crucial which could be a problem.
Of course if you can get it into play it is basically gg if you can deal with the Piledrivers however if you have nothing to protect your lands from Port and Wasteland 3W mana is sometimes hard to assemble.

georgjorge

03-29-2007, 02:30 PM

I'm trying out Sphere of Law too. Anyway, I'm considering playing two or three copies of this little gem: Convalescence. Why, oh why does it have to be two white mana instead of two colorless ?

realmlord

04-02-2007, 12:14 PM

I had some problems with so many colorless sources this weekend playing in a Legacy City Champs tourney. I lost in the Finals 2-1 to Rg Goblins because I had to mulligan to 5 and still had no colored sources...with 2 Prison and a Wrath in hand. It didn't help that he Oxidized my trinisphere when he got to 3-mana and rode the lackeys to victory.

Here is the version that I took to the 8 person event this past Saturday. I played a Food Chain combo deck in round 1 that ran Myojin of Life's Web (really nuts), then Speed Elves, and finally Rg Goblins (w/ Food Chain).

Creatures (7)
4 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Sorceries and Instants (6)
3 Wrath of God
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Armageddon

Enchantments (6)
2 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison

Artifacts (17)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds

Lands (25)
7 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port

SB:
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Defense Grid
1 Hanna's Custody
3 Armageddon
1 Rule of Law
2 Glowrider
2 Humility
2 Divine Intervention

raudo

04-02-2007, 02:03 PM

To your list (61 cards) I suggest replacing 1 Magus and 1 Angel with 4th Flagstones. So you'll be running 60 cards and 1 more white source that would be very helpful.

realmlord

04-02-2007, 02:12 PM

Yeah, I had trouble deciding on the last card out and ended up with 61 for the tournament. I can't justify removing an Angel, but maybe a Magus and the MD Armageddon.

Silverdragon

04-02-2007, 08:53 PM

I'd rather remove the 2 Suppression Fields from the maindeck and replace the 2 Divine Interventions in the sideboard with them (what matchup are the Divine Interventions for anyway???). They are the only cards that are completely dead in some matchups only hosing your own Factories, Wastelands and the random Port.
Oh and btw I play 8 Plains and 4 Flagstones but only 15 white cards and I still get colorscrewed sometimes so I can totally see the problem you have.
Was there ever a situation you couldn't cast Enlightened Tutor because of a blind Chalice@1 before? Many times in testing it happened to me that my friends looked at the game and commented how awesome Swords/Tutor/other random 1cc card would be now and I just had to point them towards the Chalice@1 that was in play since turn 1 or 2.

realmlord

04-03-2007, 07:29 AM

I would say that the utility of the Enlightened Tutors has so far outweighed the 20-30% of games that it is shut out by the Chalice@1. I keep the Suppression Fields in the main because of the heavy Belcher and Survival presence in my meta.

Divine Intervention has been my way of dealing with the Stax mirror. I have so far won 2 matches with 1-0-4 and 1-0-3 because of that card. I have however also lost one game that I sided them in 1-2-1. Other than that, I just had it in because it was a card I had been wanting to use.

If I move the Fields to the board for the Interventions, I would main deck 2 more Armageddon. Then I would probably fill the other 2 SB slots with 1 more Seal of Cleansing and another Glowrider.

I am removing the Port to put ion one more Flagstones of Trokair as well.

Bane of the Living

04-04-2007, 07:00 PM

Flagstones is one of the best cards in the deck and I fell it shows some short comings not having a playset in your deck. By now I hope everyone is switching to the maindecked Geddon plan. It makes casting the spell always a winning situation. Crucible loves them to thin your deck out. Not having card draw is a pain in the ass, this helps those late late games give you real cards rather than more of your plains. Flagstones is obviously synergistic with Smokestack first and foremost.

realmlord

04-04-2007, 07:07 PM

bane_of_the_living - I agree with you. I have upped my Flagstones count from 3 to 4. They are just too good with the rest of the deck to use less.

I currently only main-deck 1 Armageddon, but several of my teammates have moved the full set main and sided out the WoGs.

f|i[p]

04-20-2007, 03:56 AM

I was talking to a friend of mine and asking him why he switched from angel stax to wildfire stax.. he said it was the lack of win condition,it was just slow back then, although this was before magus of tabernacle was even printed. He said that even with 4 angels, matches would end up in a draw at times because the opponent would just let you do your stuff and not concede even on a hard lock..Thus making me search for another win condition aside from angel or a beating magus for 2,man lands, and the lock itself.. just to add over all speed to the deck...

I was wondering if decree of justice has ever been considered in this build of stax?

We produce around 6 mana more or less on the third to fourth turn...

It does add to our threat count, angels or soldier tokens..it can be used as blockers for goblins if need be, it can also be used as food for smokestack.. uncounterable if cycled...

over all it adds to our win conditions...

Is it worth testing? It really does seem like a good addition to the deck..

Just a thought..

Machinus

04-20-2007, 03:59 AM

Decree has some significant weaknesses:

1) It makes very small guys, which have no evasion.
2) Getting an amount which is useful for killing the opponent requires a lot of mana, and therefore it doesn't become a usable card until late in the game.
3) Other cards are just better, since they actually do things - Exalted Angel gains life, Magus of the Tabernacle taxes creatures, etc. Decree doesn't contribute to the game plan.

sammiel

04-20-2007, 08:52 AM

3x Plains
4x Savannah
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
2x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Nantuko Monastery

4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Armageddon
2x Ravages of War
3x Sylvan Library

4x Magus of the Tabernacle

SB

2x Sphere of Law
2x Rule of Law
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Leonin Abunas
2x Exalted Angel
4x Suppression Field
2x Null Brooch

Although it seems weird to splash an entirely different color just to add sylvan library, I've been having lots of success with this build. Although the lack of MD Exalted Angel hurts sometimes, the ability to dig deeper through my deck to find what I need is very helpful.

Things I'm not satisfied with: The manabase could use alot of work still, I'm thinking about dropping a fetch and a wasteland to bring the flagstone count back to 4, they may be useless once I've fetched out all the plains, but their ability to get me out of tight situations by ramping smokestack is enormous.

Also, as I said above, the lack of MD Angels really slows me down, because the monasterys are slow and sometimes it takes me awhile to generate threshold. Since I've added the libraries, I'm thinking about stripping some of the card counts from sets of 4 to 3, liike maybe dropping a crucible and a smokestack or a magus for two angels.

Also, if people have suggestions for more green stuff in the SB, I'd be interested to look. So far most of the things I've found just aren't necessary, city of solitude is too narrow compared to rule of law, constant mists is nifty but I don't think the deck needs alot more help against aggro.

realmlord

04-20-2007, 01:39 PM

Krosan Grip in green is very good vs. Belcher and Affinity.

I have considered Dosan as well. However, I have only dabbled with adding green. I still have my best results when keeping the mono-W.

Bane of the Living

04-20-2007, 05:47 PM

Krosan Grip in green is very good vs. Belcher and Affinity.

I have considered Dosan as well. However, I have only dabbled with adding green. I still have my best results when keeping the mono-W.

Dosan!!?? Not to be rude but are you high? You have Defense Grid, it doesnt get wrathed away or hit by swords. You dont have to pay 1 when Magus is out. Also you need a pretty good excuse for not playing four Flagstones.

realmlord

04-20-2007, 06:23 PM

Not quite high...
Like I said, I only briefly dabbled with green. I have no reason to move away from mono-W while I am getting good results.

Yes, playing with less than 4 Flagstones was inexcusable. That card alone makes it easier to press with 2+ counters on a Smokestack.

emidln

04-20-2007, 08:28 PM

Windborn Muse... maybe. I may consider that card if I need more Prisons, but from what I've learned from my White Gro playing friend; you dont need that many win conditions when your in top 8, since theres no time limit.

Now heres a story. I locked him with an Uba Mask, 4 Ports, a Crucible, a Smokestack at 1, and a couple Prisons. Guess how I won? I decked him out!

Seriously, running More prisons whold be nice...

Uba Mask has been decent in testing, but it wasnt really needed. Your better off with Machinus's SB...

You must be a savage cheater or poor at explaining the situation. There is no way with that board to deck an opponent. You would have to draw after ou sac the Uba Mask and lose before your opponent unless the Uba Mask simply doesn't matter to the board position. If you had disenchant you could kill them, but otherwise you both sit under the Mask until someone wins or concedes.

Citrus-God

04-21-2007, 04:02 AM

You must be a savage cheater or poor at explaining the situation. There is no way with that board to deck an opponent. You would have to draw after ou sac the Uba Mask and lose before your opponent unless the Uba Mask simply doesn't matter to the board position. If you had disenchant you could kill them, but otherwise you both sit under the Mask until someone wins or concedes.

He played a Mental Note to try and win before the board gets gummed up by lock components. So yes, I did kill him. I saced my Mask to Smokestack to kill him when he ran out of cards to draw with.

JimmyC27

04-27-2007, 01:42 PM

I was hoping for some ideas going into GP Columbus. I've been playing Goblins with a Green splash and Stax seems to run me over everytime I play it, which I feel is an odd result?

Here's my decklist for Stax currently:

Land (24):

4 Plains
1 Ancient Den
4 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (7):

4 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Artifacts (17):

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere

Enchantments (6):

3 Ghostly Prison
3 Suppression Field

Instants & Sorceries (6):

1 Wrath of God
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Armageddon

Sideboard (15):

2 Wrath of God
4 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hanna's Custody
3 Disenchant

I get the vibe GP Columbus will be aggro heavy, does that make Stax a bad choice to play? Anything I can tweak with this decklist to be more effective at Columbus?

Silverdragon

04-27-2007, 03:17 PM

Most of the suggestions I can give come from personal experience so if they don't work for you I'm fine. Anyway I have lots of suggestions for your build so here it goes:
1. Only 4 Plains are not enough to support 4 Flagstones. I run 8 Plains and 4 Flagstones and I always get at least 7 of them out when I've got a Flagstones. (of course this is only true when games go longer than first turn Trini, second turn Smokestack)
2. I've played with 24 lands long enough to say you really want 25 but you can fetch 1 with Tutor so that may be alright.
3. 3 City of Traitors should be 4 City of Traitors. As I already said you really want a lot of mana. You also want it fast so you should make room for the full 8 2-mana-lands.
4. Even with Enlightened Tutor you should run 4 Crucible of Worlds. This card is your MVP because there are so many things you want to do with it and it really helps your manabase.
5. Speaking of Enlightened Tutor, I hate this card in Stax because it is slow, card-disadvantage, and gets countered by your Chalice so its a horrible topdeck. However it helps making the deck more reliable so I can see why you want to run it.
6. Suppression Field maindeck sadly is highly conditional so you may want to cut it down to 2 or put it into the sideboard. (I play 4x in the board just for Goblins, so I see your point in maindecking them)
7. Wrath of God imho is just inferior to Armageddon. Especially with your current manabase it might be hard to hit ww early enough and even then it does not stop Goblins totally because they can rebuild really fast with Vial and Ringleader whereas Armageddon just wins games by totally shutting down many opponents. The only drawback to Armageddon is that you need a Prison or a Magus to also stop the beats that are already on the board however Magus is just such a powerhouse against non-flying beats that sometimes you don't even need an Armageddon.
8. The sideboarded Hanna's Custodys are just bad. It does nothing against boardsweepers (Serenity) and random other stuff (Kataki). Many of the permanents you want to protect are Enchantments and Chalices can counter most targeted removal @1 (Oxidize, Chain of Vapor) or @2 (Disenchant, Echoing Truth) anyway.
9. Just two more questions: What are the Tormod's Crypts for? Why Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing?
As I already said these points are mainly ideas that may be a bit biased because I designed an Armageddon-based list that does really well in my local meta so I'm ok if you don't like them.

Oh and concerning the aggro thing and Columbus: My testing and actual results showed that a) Magus and Prisons (combined with Armageddon) are fine to get an even matchup against aggro however b) sometimes Goblins just has the God-draw and there's nothing you can do about it.
I think this is offset by the fact that you too can just get the God-draw and Combo is so easy to beat (no autowin of course but easier -and more straightforward- than with Threshold).

JimmyC27

04-27-2007, 04:06 PM

For Silverdragon: What is your current decklist?

Tormod's Crypt is for ******** and Ichorid.

Silverdragon

04-27-2007, 05:04 PM

My current Angelstax list (and what I'll be taking to a tourney tomorrow [I admit a friend of mine will be playing it, I'll play Solidarity]):
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
SB:
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
2 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives

The 2/2 Split of Wastelands is because of Armageddon and the fact that the sac effect is not used often in the early game, however against multicolor manabases they are still good so after board I can up them to 4. Duskrider Peregrine helps the B/W and B/R Sui matchup and is a random critter if you need to speed up your clock.
I don't think Tormod's Crypt is needed against Threshold or Ichorid because except for Mystic Enforcer, which needs 4 mana, all your creatures already trump theirs, and half of your deck is a must-counter so you only really want to board in Defense Grid to protect the myriad answers you already have instead of adding a card that just makes their guys smaller. Against Ichorid Ghostly Prison is your best friend followed closely by Magus because he is so huge. After board Duskrider Peregrine is nice and I mean really how much permanents can they put into play anyway?
I'd be more worried about LftL variants but you can win against these with Chalice @2 and timely Armageddons.
Normally I'd pm the list but I wanted to further discuss some choices so I hope you forgive me for putting another decklist in this thread.
I hope I can get my friend to write a report :)

barron

04-27-2007, 10:58 PM

Why defense grid? Trinisphere essentially performs the same purpose and I still haven't encountered a counter deck that doesn't also need to counter chalice, which already leaves their counters pretty stretched. Is there just something I am missing? is it not for counter magic at all or something? Or have you all just been having a lot of issues with countermagic recently?

Silverdragon

04-28-2007, 02:27 AM

Defense Grid is not as strong as Welder for example but against counterspells it is always at least as good as Trinisphere and costs 1 mana less. This 1 mana difference is really important when you play against a deck with 4 Daze.
My testing against Threshold has also shown that the matchup is rather even (you may not believe me but about half the time Threshold is able to adapt to your weaker hate and control you just long enough to win with a bear or Enforcer). Chalice @1 does not = autowin against a good player and neither does Trinisphere.
Against blue based controldecks (Landstill) Trinisphere is weak too, so all in all I just like to be on the safe side against the various Thresh, Fish and Landstill decks (and Solidarity to a lesser extend).

barron

04-28-2007, 02:53 AM

Silverdragon

04-28-2007, 03:42 AM

Ok. I can understand your position.

If it isn't as strong as welder, why not just SB welder? The list I am trying doesn't run angels or anything so maybe people retain their anti-creature stuff against you, but not me.

I know it effects both players, but would sphere of resistance really be that much inferior? it would performa similar finction and help against the faster combo decks. I am just surprised to hear that daze is that much of a factor in the matchup when post SB, you could make their spells cost more and have wasteland recursion. Sphere does effect both, yes, but you do have LD recursion and tabernacle, and smokestack. That with lands that produce 2 mana it seems as though daze would be fairly easy to play around.

Welder means splashing red so not an option for me right now. I just wanted to mention that I myself am not that happy with the Grids.
Without Grids you only have Trinisphere to make their spells more expensive and Sphere of Resistance is not good against Daze because of its symetry (you are basically dazing yourself with every spell you want to play plus you can get double dazed if they have 1 mana open).
LD recursion means I was able to get a Crucible down through their counterwall + Disenchant effects. Same for Smokestack. Tabernacle is not that relevant in this matchup.
The 2 mana lands are not that good at playing around Daze because you already need most of the mana playing your 3cc and 4cc spells in the first place.
Of course these are worst case scenarios and you'll often have games that are one-sided blowouts however as I already said there are games in which the blue based deck can control you just long enough to finish you off, and these games happen far more often than one would believe.
For example I had one game against Thresh with 1st turn Chalice @1 and my opponent let it resolve, played some basics and countered my attempts at landdestruction (Smokestack and Armageddon). With enough lands he played Enforcer and attacked through my single Ghostly Prison for the win.

Bane of the Living

04-28-2007, 10:23 AM

The only blue based control deck I have problems with is Landstill. Usually the versions playing Engineered Explosives since they can be set to blow away Chalice easily and take out more than one perm. Setting Explosives to 3 is tech against you and will often steal the game.

If your always playing around Daze there honestly shouldnt be a problem with threshold. I know Silverdragon feels the matchup is close to 50/50 but Id estimate it closer to 65/35 if played correctly. Chalice for one is close to game over and the only times Ive had them weasel out of it was by dropping Werebears and tapping him for G in devestating ways. Casting more bears or enforcers..

Defense Grid is insane and will never leave my board as a four of. Its your #1 card against Solidarity and I did alot of testing before I found that out. Ill often bait them with something before grid, such as 3sphere. If that eats a Force of Will you'll have a much easier time winning with Grid resolving. Especially on a turn where you can generate 4 mana to replay it through Remand. Solidarity needs to Cunning Wish into Rebuild/RacknRuin. D Grid makes it impossible to do EOT and likely impossibly to Rebuild/RacknRuin EOT as well (6 mana!) So you can often replay the hate they bounced on their main phase.

If D Grid resolves against Solidarity expect to win the game.

BreathWeapon

04-28-2007, 12:39 PM

f|i[p]

04-28-2007, 01:13 PM

@ Machinus

I was just wondering how static orb worked for you? Around 2 pages before this you had Static orb as an option... how did it go in testing?

It seems to have synergy with the whole deck..

I want to preface this with that I use Cataclysm as my sweeper, but you guys should really try out Glowrider in your SB, because he's not as one sided as Sphere of Resistance is against Landstill and High Tide, and he's a must counter threat and a clock.

Cataclysm is retardedly good, FWIW.

Although I am still trying to buy the parts, I dont get to play test the deck as a whole yet. cataclysm is interesting.. wrath and geddon all in one card.. it does however leave your opponent 1 creature...

Machinus

04-28-2007, 01:19 PM

Static Orb was ok, the problem was that it's just too symmetrical of an effect. In addition, the best decks like Goblins and Thresh will just untap the two most important permanents, make another land drop, and cast more guys. You need your lands a lot more than they do so when it matters it hurts you more.

Bane of the Living

04-28-2007, 01:34 PM

I want to preface this with that I use Cataclysm as my sweeper, but you guys should really try out Glowrider in your SB, because he's not as one sided as Sphere of Resistance is against Landstill and High Tide, and he's a must counter threat and a clock.

Cataclysm is retardedly good, FWIW.

No cataclysm is infact the worse suggestion ever implimented in the thread. Your push for the card enlightens me that you have very little experience with the deck.

First and foremost 2WW is very hard to achieve. Wrath of God swapping to Armageddon was a huge improvement on the strain the deck had on resources. The deck wants to have mana sources via Mox Diamond after geddon which Cataclysm opposes. Hell I often have 2-3 artifacts out, why would I want to blow 2 of them up? The reason WoG is run in some builds is its proposed as a one sided effect. Cataclysm is too synergistic for the deck. We dont run things like StP to take down the last creature such as Angel Stompy. We want our Chalice to stay on the table alongside Smokestack, Crucible, and Trinisphere. Reducing our own hard work and perms is counter intuitive.

JimmyC27

04-29-2007, 03:33 AM

Thoughts on Bottled Cloister or Tivadar's Crusade on the SB?

I currently have:

1 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
4 Defense Grid
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Seal of Cleansing

JimmyC27

04-29-2007, 05:58 PM

I've modified that SB:

4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Karmic Justice

JimmyC27

04-29-2007, 09:24 PM

Sorry to post decklists again, but I was hoping for SB advice given the meta-game going into the next Grand Prix. I decided on playing this deck at Columbus. Hopefully this will start some conversation though. :)

Land (25):

6 Plains
1 Ancient Den
4 Flagstones
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (7):

4 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Artifacts (20):

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere

Enchantments (3):

3 Ghostly Prison

Instants & Sorceries (5):

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Armageddon

Sideboard (15):

4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Karmic Justice

What would you side in and out against:

1) Goblins
2) Threshold
3) TES
4) High Tide
5) Pox
6) Iggy Pop
7) Deadguy Ale
8) Angel Stompy
9) SuiBlack
10) Counter Slivers

Fred Bear

04-29-2007, 09:57 PM

I'm new to the conversation here (I've read all 33 pages plus Machinus' original articles), but have been testing this deck extensively for about the last 2-3 months. My work schedule has changed and I'm not going to be able to make the GP, so I'll post my testing results to everyone's benefit over the next couple of days. I haven't gotten to test against top players always, so I won't make match-up percentages/predictions, but I believe I have a good feel of how most of the important (expected) match-ups play out.

JimmyC27 - I have a lot of questions about your decklist and sideboard. I'll start the discussion with a couple of these and hopefully others (bane, machinus, others...) will chime in with their results.

Maindeck

How often does Enlightened Tutor help? My testing showed that it goes directly against most of what this deck tries to do early. It conflicts with a Turn 1/2 Chalice of the Void set at 1. It's a terrible 3-mana tutor effect after an early Trinisphere. I found that after Turn 1/2, it was a make-up effect at best. I mean no offense by this, but once I learned how to mulligan properly with the deck, I found that the Tutor was entirely unecessary.

Why only 3 Armageddon? I actually use 5 Armageddon effects in my current list (adding in a Ravages of War). So many decks in Legacy cheat on mana and run a low curve with lots of fetches that Armageddon becomes house. With Magus of the Tabernacle, it acts as a one sided Wrath of God (and is easier to cast). I have found that it is one of the most important cards in the deck and with so many other cards in the deck (Flagstones of Trokair, Crucible of Worlds, etc.), it gets my vote as MVP.

Sideboard

Who do you bring Bottled Cloister in against? The original list I tested with ran 2 Cloisters in the main deck to provide some draw once a lock was in place (casting before a lock was suicide unless you knew they had no artifact removal, like casting an Angel before Chalice at 1 when you know they have Swords). It was always a win-more effect. It would speed me into an Angel, or another beater, but it never helped the goals of the deck. It is a nice trick if you use Ensnaring Bridge, but again - it takes 2 cards to essentially do what Ghostly Prison does in a lot of instances. It just wasn't a great enough effect to warrant inclusion anywhere in my estimation.

How has Karmic Justice worked out for you? I originally ran 2 Hanna's Custody - they stunk. I switched to 2 Karmic Justice and proceeded to NEVER side them in against anything. They are entirely reactive and again, don't help accomplish the goals of the deck. If Goblins splash Green gets big, they may be playable since they will run Tranquil Domain. But the key is to not 'over-extend' into the Domain and play the Prisons (and Sphere of Laws if you use them) sparingly.

Those are just some initial thoughts. I do think the deck is a good choice for the expected meta of the Grand Prix, but I also think there are a couple glaring problems the deck may encounter whether you have 3 byes or not.

Fred Bear...

JimmyC27

04-30-2007, 01:29 AM

Maindeck

How often does Enlightened Tutor help? My testing showed that it goes directly against most of what this deck tries to do early. It conflicts with a Turn 1/2 Chalice of the Void set at 1. It's a terrible 3-mana tutor effect after an early Trinisphere. I found that after Turn 1/2, it was a make-up effect at best. I mean no offense by this, but once I learned how to mulligan properly with the deck, I found that the Tutor was entirely unecessary.

Why only 3 Armageddon? I actually use 5 Armageddon effects in my current list (adding in a Ravages of War). So many decks in Legacy cheat on mana and run a low curve with lots of fetches that Armageddon becomes house. With Magus of the Tabernacle, it acts as a one sided Wrath of God (and is easier to cast). I have found that it is one of the most important cards in the deck and with so many other cards in the deck (Flagstones of Trokair, Crucible of Worlds, etc.), it gets my vote as MVP.

Sideboard

Who do you bring Bottled Cloister in against? The original list I tested with ran 2 Cloisters in the main deck to provide some draw once a lock was in place (casting before a lock was suicide unless you knew they had no artifact removal, like casting an Angel before Chalice at 1 when you know they have Swords). It was always a win-more effect. It would speed me into an Angel, or another beater, but it never helped the goals of the deck. It is a nice trick if you use Ensnaring Bridge, but again - it takes 2 cards to essentially do what Ghostly Prison does in a lot of instances. It just wasn't a great enough effect to warrant inclusion anywhere in my estimation.

How has Karmic Justice worked out for you? I originally ran 2 Hanna's Custody - they stunk. I switched to 2 Karmic Justice and proceeded to NEVER side them in against anything. They are entirely reactive and again, don't help accomplish the goals of the deck. If Goblins splash Green gets big, they may be playable since they will run Tranquil Domain. But the key is to not 'over-extend' into the Domain and play the Prisons (and Sphere of Laws if you use them) sparingly.

Those are just some initial thoughts. I do think the deck is a good choice for the expected meta of the Grand Prix, but I also think there are a couple glaring problems the deck may encounter whether you have 3 byes or not.

Fred Bear...

Enlightened Tutor: Just for a smoothing effect across the enitre deck to get what I want when I need it. For some reason I haven't really drawn it a lot in my testing, but when I do Chalice hasn't been set to 1. What two cards would you recommend in its place?

3 Armageddon: They were the last three cards to go into the deck and I didn't see where a fourth spot would be do-able. Maybe with the elimination of the Enlightened Tutors, there's a room for a 4th Armageddon and 4th Prison.

Bottled Cloister: I plan to use it against Deadguy Ale and anything discard.

Karmic Justice: They're my SB for expected jank at Columbus. I don't want somebody wiping the board with my artifacts and me crying. :)

What are the glaring problems you see with this deck at Columbus?

Fred Bear

04-30-2007, 06:30 AM

Goblin Snowman

04-30-2007, 07:50 AM

@ Enlightened Tutor - I would replace with at least 1 Armageddon and 1 Ghostly Prison. Ghostly Prison is so good against so many decks, even non aggro decks. It will cost someone 5 mana to do 2 damage with a Mishra's Factory. And like I already said, I believe Armageddon is the key to this deck being viable. Armageddon + Ghostly Prison = Ensnaring Bridge, Armageddon + Magus of the Tabernacle = 1/2 Wrath of God, Armageddon + Crucible = not fair. Remember, nobody will counter the Tutor because they will counter/destroy the artifact/enchantment you get with it which ruins 2 cards, 1 draw, and 1 turn which this deck can't make up. Stax topdecks better than a lot of the field and with proper mulligans - it does not need the tutor effect.

@ Bottled Cloister - Discard is not as difficult a match-up as I once believed. They have no clock (Red Death is a little different) and you really do topdeck better than them. Every card in your maindeck affects them and slows them down. By the time the Cloister hits, your hand is will most likely already be in the yard. And once you draw it, you have no way to protect it against a turn 1/2 Hymn anyway, so there is no guarantee it will be there on turn 3/4 to shut off their deck. I do side against them, and right now I am trying 2x Spiritual Focus.

@ Karmic Justice - There are only a couple of playable board wipers. Realistically, though, most people will not be siding specifically for this deck or Stax in general. Stax will make up probably 1-2% of the GP field - probably not more than 10 decks in my estimation. We need to worry about 'splash' damage because people will play some for Affinity (if they have a bad match-up there). But then again, a lot of decks will use aggro hate and NOT specific artifact hosers. You may see an occasional Serenity, Meltdown, or the like, but remember - the rest of your deck is just much stronger. Cards like that will make them run more ineffeciently which is exactly what this deck wants - every turn they are not killing you benefits you. If you expect a sweeper - don't overextend. The worst ones I've run into maindeck are Pernicous Deed and Nevinyrral's Disk. Both are rough beats, but neither occur to a degree that I wanted to side in hate just for them. Try to stick with proactive cards.

The glaring problems I see for this deck going into the GP are #1) it's bad match-ups (I have the most trouble with Landstill decks and Enchantress) will likely make up ~15% or more of the field, #2) the subtlety of a lot of interactions lead to play mistakes (Smokestack + Magus on the table vs a board of more Goblins than land - you have to remember to stack the Smokestack trigger and then the Magus triggers so that they have to pay all the Magus upkeeps before they sacrifice a permanent so that they can't just sacrifice an 'extra' goblin), and #3) the deck requires proficiency to finish a match in the required time if your opponent selects to 'play it out' under a lock condition.

Fred Bear...

I'll agree Enlightened Tutor is not needed, and that Armageddon is the best card in the deck. So many times come down to you just needing to topdeck it. What issues are you having against Landstill and Enchantress? Both are hurt badly by Armageddon/Smokestack, and Suppression Field is a house against Landstill.

tylerwylie

04-30-2007, 07:57 AM

Landstill plays Akroma's Vengeance, which alone can give them a 1-8 or 9, I've seen personally this happen, as well as the fact that they run 2-3 Disenchants maindeck.

Silverdragon

04-30-2007, 08:40 AM

@ Enlightened Tutor - I would replace with at least 1 Armageddon and 1 Ghostly Prison. Ghostly Prison is so good against so many decks, even non aggro decks. It will cost someone 5 mana to do 2 damage with a Mishra's Factory. And like I already said, I believe Armageddon is the key to this deck being viable. Armageddon + Ghostly Prison = Ensnaring Bridge, Armageddon + Magus of the Tabernacle = 1/2 Wrath of God, Armageddon + Crucible = not fair. Remember, nobody will counter the Tutor because they will counter/destroy the artifact/enchantment you get with it which ruins 2 cards, 1 draw, and 1 turn which this deck can't make up. Stax topdecks better than a lot of the field and with proper mulligans - it does not need the tutor effect.
QFT. I've talked about Tutor a lot with the people I playtest with and time and time again we come back to the conclusion that it is just bad.

@ Bottled Cloister - Discard is not as difficult a match-up as I once believed. They have no clock (Red Death is a little different) and you really do topdeck better than them. Every card in your maindeck affects them and slows them down. By the time the Cloister hits, your hand is will most likely already be in the yard. And once you draw it, you have no way to protect it against a turn 1/2 Hymn anyway, so there is no guarantee it will be there on turn 3/4 to shut off their deck. I do side against them, and right now I am trying 2x Spiritual Focus.
Sui variants can get difficult and depending on their splash and specific cardchoices it can get to about 50/50. That's why I attack their weakest spot (their clock) with the sideboarded Duskrider Peregrines. So far they've proven to be better than the other options we tested.

@ Karmic Justice - There are only a couple of playable board wipers. Realistically, though, most people will not be siding specifically for this deck or Stax in general. Stax will make up probably 1-2% of the GP field - probably not more than 10 decks in my estimation. We need to worry about 'splash' damage because people will play some for Affinity (if they have a bad match-up there). But then again, a lot of decks will use aggro hate and NOT specific artifact hosers. You may see an occasional Serenity, Meltdown, or the like, but remember - the rest of your deck is just much stronger. Cards like that will make them run more ineffeciently which is exactly what this deck wants - every turn they are not killing you benefits you. If you expect a sweeper - don't overextend. The worst ones I've run into maindeck are Pernicous Deed and Nevinyrral's Disk. Both are rough beats, but neither occur to a degree that I wanted to side in hate just for them. Try to stick with proactive cards.
I agree, proactive cards on your side are better than narrow cards to answer boardsweepers they might or might not draw. I experienced the same problems during testing that I didn't know when to board Karmic Justice and what to take out. The games I was able to get it into play it did nothing because I already avoided sweepers by keeping extra copies of lockpieces in hand etc.

The glaring problems I see for this deck going into the GP are #1) it's bad match-ups (I have the most trouble with Landstill decks and Enchantress) will likely make up ~15% or more of the field, #2) the subtlety of a lot of interactions lead to play mistakes (Smokestack + Magus on the table vs a board of more Goblins than land - you have to remember to stack the Smokestack trigger and then the Magus triggers so that they have to pay all the Magus upkeeps before they sacrifice a permanent so that they can't just sacrifice an 'extra' goblin), and #3) the deck requires proficiency to finish a match in the required time if your opponent selects to 'play it out' under a lock condition.

Fred Bear...

#1) That would imply that 85% of the matchups at the GP are even or better. I'd always take a deck with these percentages :tongue:
Joking aside I'd say the main problem with matchups is that a lot of matchups actually are a coinflip simply because the deck is so dependent on its draw (Prisons against Aggro, Armageddons against Control etc).
#2) These sort of mistakes can be avoided by testing the deck against good players and I don't think that mistakes alone will keep Stax out of day 2.
#3) Again this can be avoided by knowing the deck and playing fast enough. Especially thanks to Magus our clock is faster than ever.

Finally I too agree that Armageddon is the MVP of this deck.

JimmyC27

04-30-2007, 10:25 AM

Silverdragon: Would you play this deck at Columbus over Goblins w/ Green?

Goblin Snowman

04-30-2007, 11:45 AM

Landstill plays Akroma's Vengeance, which alone can give them a 1-8 or 9, I've seen personally this happen, as well as the fact that they run 2-3 Disenchants maindeck.

Which Landstill are we talking about, I'm talking about 4c with easily destroyed manabase Landstill, since I haven't seen UW/UR in roughly a year. If you suspect they have Vengence, screw their manabase before they hit 6 mana, 4 Wastelands, Ports, Geddons (sometimes more than 4), Smokestacks should make the MU at least even.

Silverdragon

04-30-2007, 01:00 PM

@JimmyC27 No I'd play Goblins/g because in testing I always get the godlike hands with it :laugh:
However if you feel you can beat the Goblins matchup then I'd definitely recommend this deck.
Sadly I wasn't able to test the Landstill matchup as much as I'd like to but messing with their manabase is always a good plan. After boarding you bring in 4 Defense Grid and 4 Suppression Field for 4 Trinisphere and 4 Magus which should even things out a bit more. I'll be back with actual testing results later.

JimmyC27

04-30-2007, 01:14 PM

In my testing, Goblins hasn't been anything terrifying. I've only tested against a R/g version with 2 Tin Streets and 3 Pyrokinesis.. this was also pre-boarding.

What will Goblins be boarding in? x CotV? +4 Naturalize?

What will Stax be boarding in? +4 Suppresion Field? I don't know what to take out for the Fields..

Silverdragon

04-30-2007, 11:42 PM

Goblins will board in Disenchant effects and I've heard about some players that also board in Pillar to increase the clock when they can't hit with their critters anymore. I board in Fields and Explosives for 2-4 Trinispheres and 2-4 Chalices depending on the splash and specific cards of the opponent.
The reason behind this is that after turn 1 Chalice and Trini are dead cards thanks to Vial and Lackey.

furt

05-01-2007, 12:13 AM

I am fairly new to this deck in Legacy but recently played it to a top 8 at a small event in Mass. I have played Stax plenty of times in Vintage and have played many prison decks in other formats. I was wondering about some discussion on certain card choices.

Those running Enlightened Tutor. I am almost positive this has to be sub-optimal. In my experience so far with the deck, it CANNOT afford to lose a draw step, even if it is to draw a lock piece. It also goes against the golden rule of the deck, if it costs 1, don't run it.

Has anyone thought of Windborn Muse in place of Ghostly Prison or maybe in addition too? For those not familiar and too lazy to seach:

Windborn Muse 3W
Creature - Spirit
Flying
Creatures cannot attack you unless their controller pays :2: for each attacker. 2/3

Seems like it deserves a little testing.

Another thing that I have noticed so far in my testing is, if your playing against an aggro deck without counterspells (Goblins, Boros, Zoo, RG) then you are heavily favored in a three game match. Too lose those matchups it requires a poor draw on your part and as I see it, the most important part of this deck is making proper mulliganing decisions. Because of the ease of these matchups I am really considering running this at the upcoming Grand Prix and I want to tune this as much as I can.

JimmyC27

05-01-2007, 02:24 AM

Goblins will board in Disenchant effects and I've heard about some players that also board in Pillar to increase the clock when they can't hit with their critters anymore.

By increase the clock do you play out for the draw? I feel like the addition of win conditions in 1x Exalted Angel, 3x Magus and 3x Factories (from the original build) has kept most of my matches to ten minutes. I think this is a good sign, since time is a key factor that works against this deck.

Fred Bear

05-01-2007, 07:23 AM

@ Silverdragon - You are right. I didn't mean to imply that the deck had a positive match-up against 85% of the field. It does have a lot of positive match-ups, but probably not that many. I meant that the decks I have the most problems with will be ~15% of the field - just Enchantress and Landstill (since they won't necessarily be ultra-difficult decks for players to build since they were playable decks in previous Extended seasons).

@ Landstill Problems - My main difficulties have been with their Crucible (I've never worried about a 6cc spell with this deck). Post-board the match-up improves, I'm just not very lucky in ripping Suppression Fields :frown: . The 4c version does have an easy mana base to disrupt - if you can Waste-Lock them quickly. Once they have their Crucible out, though, I've found it becomes counter-productive and Armageddon is just a speed bump.

@ Enchantress Problems - Karmic Justice really throws a wrench into the Armageddon plan. A good Enchantress player knows that's our plan and will get one quickly. Smokestack becomes about the only hope to regain advantage. But once they have a recurring Aura of Silence, I've found it's time to re-shuffle. I have found that it's very important to get an explosive draw against this deck in particular. What is everyone else's experience with this deck? I know it will make up a small percentage of the total decks at the GP, but I do believe that it is strong enough to make Day 2.

@ Goblins Green Boarding - I have seen them board in Tranquil Domains too, so you can't lock them with 2-3 Prisons. I board in Sphere of Law since it shuts them off almost completely until they find a Disenchant effect. I keep the Chalices post-board, too, since you can shut off almost all their hate with a single Chalice. I also played around with boarding in Rule of Law just to slow them down but it's not that great. Magus + Armageddon is at it's best in any Goblins match-up. And because of this, I haven't even really tested Wrath of Gods - does anyone know if that would be better than other options? I haven't tested it because Goblins isn't as bad a match as I would've believed (and other aggro match-ups are very good already).

@ furt - My current build has one 'extra' slot that is currently filled with the Muse. Honestly, I can't say that there are a lot of decks that I'm overjoyed to see her against. The four Ghostly Prisons that I run seem to be enough and appear harder to remove for most decks. I've found that against Goblins - she is just becomes an easy target for a cycled Incinerator. I agree with you completely about non-counterspell aggro decks - I'll even add that if they don't run Vial, they are even better match-ups.

@ the clock - I removed Factories from my mana base altogether and with 7 main-deck creatures, I have maybe 1 game in 10 last longer than 15 minutes.

Fred Bear...

JimmyC27

05-01-2007, 12:15 PM

Fred Bear: What are your 7 main deck creatures?

chmoddity

05-01-2007, 02:27 PM

Forgive me for not thumbing through 600 posts...

Why is Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale not being included? It seems like it would be pretty beneficial.

JimmyC27

05-01-2007, 03:37 PM

Magus of the Tabernacle has the same effect, plus he's a 2/6 so he can stop almost every creature in the format. Pendrell costs $50 too. :)

At least those are my reasons for not playing it.

JimmyC27

05-01-2007, 03:47 PM

I realize it goes against "don't play low cc" rule, but to improve the combo match would Orim's Chant or Abeyance be worth sideboarding in?

Goblin Snowman

05-01-2007, 03:53 PM

I realize it goes against "don't play low cc" rule, but to improve the combo match would Orim's Chant or Abeyance be worth sideboarding in?

1) You beat most combo as it is
2) These do nothing to stop Hulk Flash, which is very likely to become a, if not the, DTB.

Fred Bear

05-01-2007, 04:27 PM

Right now, I main deck 3 Magus of the Tabernacle, 3 Exalted Angels, and 1 Windborn Muse. I am toying with the idea to swap out the Muse for the 4th Magus or just another utility card. The Angels are actually the weakest non-mana producing cards in the deck in my opinion.

I don't use The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale because you can't play it in a land slot. This deck requires 24-5 land and 4 Mox Diamonds, so playing Tabernacle lands requires you to play them in spell slots. At that point you might as well play the Magus.

Combo is one of this deck's best match-ups in my testing. And that covers just about any combo. We run so many 'must-counters' that unless they go off turn 1, we have inevitability. Ghostly Prison and Magus negate most Empty the Warrens stategies. You will get beat by the random quick Charbelcher or Tendrils, but otherwise these are very good match-ups. I run Rule of Law in the side as insurance since Magus or Prison can wind up being dead cards (or have a lesser effect). Chant and Abeyance become re-active cards.

Hulk Flash is borderline broken. We have tools to slow it down, provided we get a turn.

Fred Bear...

Goblin Snowman

05-01-2007, 05:53 PM

realmlord

05-02-2007, 09:07 AM

Against Hulk-Flash, we have only a few options. Pre-FS, we have a better chance than post-FS.

If we get a turn at all, we have to put our hopes in Chalice for 2 + 3sphere and/or Chalice for 1 vs. the Chain of Vapor and Tutors.

As awful as it sounds, it may become necessary to pack Children of Korliss SB. (Let several Disciple triggers resolve until you are very low in life and gain it all back before the lethal trigger resolves.)

I expect to see lots of people playing the Hulk-Flash deck at GP Columbus and I don't intend to switch from Angel Stax just yet. Stax decks may be slow, but we do have defenses against this new threat (however feeble they may seem).

JimmyC27

05-02-2007, 12:52 PM

I expect to see lots of people playing the Hulk-Flash deck at GP Columbus and I don't intend to switch from Angel Stax just yet. Stax decks may be slow, but we do have defenses against this new threat (however feeble they may seem).

Is Hulk-Flash even legal for GP Columbus? Does not it need Pact of Negation and Summoners Pact to function well, which are Future Sight cards...?

realmlord

05-02-2007, 03:32 PM

No, Hulk-Flash does not need the Pact of Negation or Summoners Pact to be effective. The deck has been popping up at isolated events this week with Worldly Tutor and Daze in those slots and still winning.

Bane of the Living

05-02-2007, 05:19 PM

Some Angel Stax opinions..

First off its nice to see some noobs pick this deck up because its severely underplayed. It's been my deck of choice over a year now and it can always be changed according to the meta. Artifact hate is at an all time low and this deck has a good shot against the tier one.

Bottled Cloister.. I run 2-3 of these in my board because against combo you often have so many dead cards you need to find more usefull ones. Ghostly Prison is terrible against Solidarity. Defense Grid is no good against TES. Bottled Cloister fills that gap nicely and gives you an amazing card to bring in vs black decks. Ive yet to try SilverDragons tech of Peregrine but it looks promising and adding another clock against combo seems relevant.

Geddon!.. I play 3 main and one sb. Im still sporting 2-3 WoGs depending on my meta. Id go with 2 at GP. I sideboard my fourth Geddon. I dont like seeing 2 in my opening hand unless its absolutely crucial to the matchup.

Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale... I play one of these maindeck and if I owned a second it would be in the board. Its great to have one to drop the same turn you geddon, its great to pitch to mox early game. It soaks up Wastelands instead of Ancient Tomb. Its also free which in my testing against Goblins and TES has been detrimental.

Windborn Muse.. The reason this guy doesnt work is you need to pay one for him with magus out, you need chalice to protect him from swords, he gets gemplamed, and he cost 1 more.

furt nice to see another person aside from me playing AS at the dragons lair. Congrats on your top 8.

If I were to experiment with anything new in the deck right now as far as creatures Id try Voidstone Gargoyle. Its much better against Hulk Flash than Exalted.

Speaking of Hulk Flash.. I think this deck will stay a contender even when the deck becomes popular. This is the only deck really capable of casting CotV@2 which leads me to believe we might want more Crystal Veins or something to increase the chance of that. We still have turn one Trinisphere leading into broken shit. We have Defense Grid in the sb. Of course.. Children of Korlis may become a 4 of in the board as well...

Machinus

05-02-2007, 06:51 PM

I have a newer decklist for people to test out. This was supposed to go up in an mtgsalvation article but it was canceled.

9 Plains
4 Flagstones of Troikar
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
2 Moat
4 Wrath of God
4 Exalted Angel

SB:
4 Defense Grid
4 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Mask
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Karmic Justice

I put in the second Moat because it was performing very well. The Seals came in from the board becasue I found that killing Vials is one of the strongest possible plays and it can be done very early. Overall the deck hasn't changed significantly, but the strengths of the deck have only increased since I last wrote about it (Combo and Aggro-Control).

This was way before all this Flash nonsense. This deck was designed to beat the legitimate format we used to play until last week.

Bane of the Living

05-02-2007, 07:19 PM

Do you have anything else to say about your build? With all respect your list looks months behind the rest of the ones previously posted. You moved Trinisphere, the decks strongest play in the sb. You dont give any reasoning behind Engineered Explosives. The deck should only be able to set it at one, possibly 2 if you have a mox. Is this just to take out Vial?

Only four Crucibles?

Where the hell is Armageddon? This is strictly the decks finest point of evolution. Magus more than stole the role Tangle Wire once held, a card I honestly never liked in the deck very much. Especially when your not playing with Trinisphere.

No Ghostly Prison? I dont understand the direction your trying to take this deck at all.

Machinus

05-02-2007, 07:26 PM

There is a separate evolution the deck can take. The above list is to designed to deal with all manner of Aggro and Aggro-Control decks that have given the deck trouble in the past. Trinisphere is very bad in this strategy so it is just in the board for combo decks, which the deck still has reasonable game against pre board.

The other direction is to abuse Armageddon, which I have considered a few times before. I posted the LD list back in February.

4 Magus
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

4 Powder Keg
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Mox Diamond

7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
3 Flagstones of Trokiar
4 Mishra's Factory

They have different goals. The second version obviously murders all combo, but Angel Stax has consistently had good game against Combo, so I was addressing a weakness the deck had in modern environments.

All of this is obviously dealing with the format that used to exist. Right now the Armageddon version is probably ten times better just due to Flash.

Nihil Credo

05-03-2007, 11:03 AM

If you like to play Armageddon Stax (which I do), I recommend the configuration of: 3 Armageddon + 3 Ravages of War MD, and the fourth copies sideboarded (they come in against 1) decks with lots of countermagic; 2) decks with the ability to rebuild their mana base quickly).

JimmyC27

05-03-2007, 12:32 PM

Are 6 copies of Armageddon necessary? What did you take out? Where's the cheapest place to pick up multiple copies of Ravages of War?

Lich

05-03-2007, 12:52 PM

For reference before I start talking, here's my decklist:
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Exalted Angel
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Defense Grid
3 Powder Keg
4 Rule of Law (I know, we already smash combo, but I was sick of getting "at the end of your turn, Rebuild"ed)
1 Wasteland
3 Karmic Justice

Alright, so the question now is, how do we beat Hulk Flash? Pre-FS, that is. For Columbus. It seems like if there's any deck other than Fish who is geared to beating Hulk Flash, it's Stax. I think any of us going to Columbus need to be willing to devote at least 11 board slots to Hulk, if not all 15. Probably even a few maindeck slots.

So now on to the strategizing.

If Chalice at 1 and any of the following resolve, we win:
Humility
Chalice at 2
Leyline of the Void
Ivory Mask (against the Disciple version)

Problems with all of them:
They cost 4 mana, except Leyline which either costs 0 or can't be cast at all barring 2 Moxen.
Problems individually:
With a Humility in play, it will take FOREVER to win. Probably not a feasible plan at all. But on the bright side, your Mishra's Factories will be much larger than their creatures. Actually, any rules people know if a Shifting Wall with counters will be larger than 1/1 if you play a Humility? I think I remember something about how if you play Shifting Wall after Humility is in play, it will still get the bonus from counters, sort of like Factory.
Chalice at 2 is the best option, but you already need a Chalice at 1 to stop bounce and search, and the odds of drawing 2 Chalice in the first 2 turns are much worse than drawing 1.
Leyline + Chalice wins you the game instantly, but only if you have it in your opening hand. Actually, I'm not sure on the ruling here either. Can Leyline in your opening hand be Forced? I just realized I don't think it can. That would be great.
Ivory Mask is also good against random burn decks, and unlike the rest of these cards is also worth bringing against other combo decks, and maybe some other decks as well, but doesn't help a bit against the Sky Hussar version. Not sure if it's worth including something that only helps against one of the decks.

Another note: Ghostly Prison makes sure that they can't attack with Sky Hussar tokens as soon as they do the combo, and next turn they have to pay 2 to attack with a huge Carrion Feeder, so conceivably we could perma-block with Factory/Crucible. Unfortunately there's not much you can do to win from this point barring Geddon/Magus.

We should figure out these things about the sideboard:
Whether Armageddon is worth keeping in or taking out in this matchup.
Whether Trinisphere is worth keeping in or taking out in this matchup. It only makes Flash cost 1 more, but it makes your stuff impossible to counter. However, Defense Grid does that just as well and costs 1 less.
Whether STP is worth trying out. Also good against a few other matchups. Costs 1, though.
Mana Tithe? The upside is that it only costs 1 and they won't expect it, the downside is, well, it costs 1, and they can just remove another ESG to counter it.
I'm actually thinking that we need 3/4 Lotus Petal in the sideboard to make absolutely certain we can play one of these 4 mana cards on turn 2. Also, 4 Petal makes it much, much more likely we can hardcast Leyline if necessary.
Enlightened Tutor in the board makes you more likely you'll draw combo pieces, but it could just be a combo piece itself. Gets countered by Chalice at 1, but with the Petals you can easily play Tutor and then play Chalice.

Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

Silverdragon

05-03-2007, 01:07 PM

If they are playing the Kiki version or use Ravager in the Disciple kill then Suppression Field is good too.
Turn 0 Leyline can't be Forced.
Oh and my guess is that they will ban Flash after the GP and unban Land Tax.
edit: If they go for the Disciple kill with only 5 0cc artifacts (20 damage) then Zuran Orb is a great help in surviving.

Lich

05-03-2007, 01:11 PM

Haha, ah yes, I had actually taken out Suppression Field because I found it to be useless, but I guess they would be great in this matchup.

Nihil Credo

05-03-2007, 01:34 PM

This is the latest list I've been using. It's tuned against a metagame made mostly of combo and aggro-control, which is interestingly the same direction the meta will be heading towards until Hulk Flash gets banned; although to be able to consistently beat HF much more severe changes will be needed.

Also, has anyone tried out Horizon Canopy? The life loss is very annoying when cumulated with Ancient Tombs, but I'm thinking that it might be worth running one or two for either A) Crucible abuse or B) Lands that aren't bad to topdeck in the late game.

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [REW] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
SB: 1 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 1 [REW] Armageddon
SB: 1 [US] Smokestack
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 2 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Faith's Fetters (new tech I was trying out)
SB: 2 [LE] Windborn Muse

Bane of the Living

05-04-2007, 07:23 PM

For reference before I start talking, here's my decklist:

We should figure out these things about the sideboard:
Whether Armageddon is worth keeping in or taking out in this matchup.
Whether Trinisphere is worth keeping in or taking out in this matchup. It only makes Flash cost 1 more, but it makes your stuff impossible to counter. However, Defense Grid does that just as well and costs 1 less.
Whether STP is worth trying out. Also good against a few other matchups. Costs 1, though.
Mana Tithe? The upside is that it only costs 1 and they won't expect it, the downside is, well, it costs 1, and they can just remove another ESG to counter it.
I'm actually thinking that we need 3/4 Lotus Petal in the sideboard to make absolutely certain we can play one of these 4 mana cards on turn 2. Also, 4 Petal makes it much, much more likely we can hardcast Leyline if necessary.
Enlightened Tutor in the board makes you more likely you'll draw combo pieces, but it could just be a combo piece itself. Gets countered by Chalice at 1, but with the Petals you can easily play Tutor and then play Chalice.

Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

Take Geddon out post boarding. They combo off at 2 mana. 2 MANA They can get it via petals and ESG's easily.

Trinisphere is probably worth keeping because of its value turns 1 and 2. It makes Lotus Petals unplayed quite shitty and its better than Ghostly Prison if you ask me.

StP and Mana Tithe seem worthless to me. If anything Id start to consider maindecked Defense Grids. With a low gob count and all the focus on HF Force will be everywhere. Solidarity, Fish, and Thresh will be in large numbers.

The other possibility is Children of Korlis since its a clock (dont laugh) and needs to be dealt with to combo off unlike Trinisphere and the entire deck.

JimmyC27

05-04-2007, 09:43 PM

What about maindecking Suppression Field to slow down Ravager and Kiki?

Lich

05-04-2007, 11:12 PM

Children of Korlis as a clock makes me a sad, sad panda. This GP is going to suck. The thing about Children of Korlis is that they don't help at all against the Kiki-Jiki version. The problem with Suppression Field, on the other hand, is that even if you get it into play against Ravager, you'll still lose, because even if they have to pay 2 to sac an artifact, you don't have a relevant enough clock to race them, and you can't wrath or you'll die. You would have to have an Exalted in play to combat the four damage a turn, and be able to continually block the Ravager.
So again, we have cards that are good against one version but not the other. I think the real thing that needs to be focused on is locking them down with Chalice before they can combo, which is why I, unfortunately, think Enlightened Tutor may be necessary. I hate the card, but it searches for Leyline and Chalice, and if you have one of them, it searches for Defense Grid or Trinisphere.
I'm thinking the following sideboard:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mana Tithe

I know, I don't want to play Mana Tithe OR Tutor, but I can't see another way we'd win. The Tithe serves two purposes; it slows them down a turn or two if you catch them without an ESG in hand, and it protects your Chalice from FoW if you cast it with a mana open. If you play Chalice on turn 1 with Petal or Mox open, then even if they FoW, you can protect it, and if they use an ESG to pay for Tithe, they're left with 4 cards in hand and nothing on the board to your 2 or 3 mana and 2 or 3 cards. Lotus Petal is obviously also good anti-Daze.

I could be completely wrong though, I have, honestly, never actually played a game against Hulk Flash, I'm completely theory-crafting based on my absolute terror of the monstrosity that is that deck. I think the great thing about Stax is that not only will it have a good matchup (I hope?) against Flash, but it should absolutely demolish the other decks that are geared to beat Flash.

Bane of the Living

05-05-2007, 07:56 AM

I think the great thing about Stax is that not only will it have a good matchup (I hope?) against Flash, but it should absolutely demolish the other decks that are geared to beat Flash.

This is wrong and its the largest uproar about the deck. It was easy to gear against Goblins and still have a good matchup against scrub.dec but it takes alot of dedicated hate to even go 50/50 with HF. As good as any deck can intend to be against the deck they still have absurd percentages of turn 0-1 kills where whatever you have planned is worthless.

In all honestly I think the best thing to do is go into the matchup with our pants down. Id rather be prepared with an all around malicious deck than keep delusions of granduer on beating HF. If I make any modification to my maindeck it will now be moving the Defense Grids to the maindeck.

TheMightyQuinn

05-05-2007, 03:16 PM

What about maindecking Suppression Field to slow down Ravager and Kiki?

Suppression Field only works against the Kiki version of Hulk Flash. The Disciple kill doesn't even require a Ravager since Walls and Mauraders enter play as 0/0 and promptly die.

Fred Bear

05-06-2007, 11:51 AM

I'm in total agreement with Bane of the Living, and have made the decision to 'ignore' Hulk Flash for deck building/tuning purposes. In a format where a loss in your upkeep prior to having a turn is possible, it's a waste of time. The interaction (Hulk/Flash) is obviously broken and needs to be addressed (I don't want this thread to become about that - so that's all I'll say). It may have nerfed a Grand Prix, but hopefully that will be the extent of the damage. I believe that Angel Stax has the ability to survive in a ‘healthy’ meta and when that returns, I expect us to be ready…

This is my most recent decklist and some comments...

//Land (24)

4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
8 [UNH] Plains
2 [BOK] Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai

//Creatures (7)

3 [ON] Exalted Angel
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

//Spells (29)

4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [P2] Armageddon

//Sideboard (15)

X [RAV] Suppression Field
X [UL] Defense Grid
X [OD] Sphere of Law
X [MR] Rule of Law
X [XXX] XXXXXXXXXX

Again, I've chosen to ignore Hulk Flash as a part of the meta since there is a large percentage of the time that you will lose before you get a chance to do anything meaningful with the deck (and having to mulligan into a Children of Korlis is just sad)...

Card Choices -

*Flagstones of Trokair - Why beat a dead horse? They are awesome in a white board control deck.
*Wasteland - I play 3 since getting one is typically enough - especially since Crucible makes it infinite.
*Ancient Tomb - Again, obvious acceleration.
*City of Traitors - I play only 3 since getting 2 in the opener without a Mox Diamond or Crucible is painful.
*Plains - Obvious
*Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai - This tested better than Mishra’s Factory for me. Being able to set a Smokestack lock at 2 (instead of 1) or a Double Smokestack at 1 each (preferred) proved to be much better than being able to beat for 2 occasionally. It also proved much better anytime Suppression Field comes in.

*Exalted Angel - Deck namesake. I believe these are some of the weakest slots in the deck, though, and have begun testing down to 2 Angels. Unless you get Turn 1 - morph, Turn 2 - unmorph, she seems inferior to any lock piece. She is good at drawing out counters or removal, though.
*Magus of the Tabernacle - I just upped his count to the full playset. I wouldn't be opposed to knocking it back to 3, if I can find better utility.

*Ghostly Prison - Slows aggro down. Not just attacking. Many players misidentify themselves in the match-up and this card highlights that.
*Smokestack - Another namesake lock piece.
*Trinisphere - Not nearly as broken in this format as Type 1. It is great against decks that cheat their curve and cannot rebuild quickly post Armageddon.
*Chalice of the Void - I don't know if it's the 'Best Card in the Format' as it’s recently been touted, but it is again, very good against many decks in this format because 3-4cc is considered borderline too slow.
*Mox Diamond - This has been covered - but it's essentially a basic land in this deck.
*Crucible of Worlds - This piece makes all the others work.
*Ravages of War / Armageddon - A mix since 5>4. This is my MVP in the deck. Combine it with Magus and you get Wrath of God. Combine it with Ghostly Prison and you get no attacks. Combine it with Trinisphere and you get multiple Time Walks. Combine it with Crucible and you get a concession (a lot of the time).

*Suppression Field - Meta hoser.
*Defense Grid - Control hoser.
*Sphere of Law - Red hoser.
*Rule of law - Combo hoser.

I have left the numbers and other cards in the sideboard up in the air. I regularly throw in a couple Spiritual Focus if I expect Black, but I don't have strong feelings about any other cards (I do like Aura of Silence, though, versus the mirror or other artifact/enchantment decks). I believe many of the match-ups to be in the 45-60/55-40 range. It comes down to the randomness of your draw against a specific archetype and your playskill level against that particular archetype – if you’ve tested the deck, I think you’ll understand what I mean by this.

I still feel as though there are at least 2 questionable card slots in the main deck – 1x Exalted Angel and 1x Magus of the Tabernacle – but possibly others depending on what is brought in. What, if anything, would be better? I have ruled out Windborn Muse. I always wanted something different in my testing. And I have pretty well ruled out Bottled Cloister – as I mentioned in an earlier post, my testing showed it to be a ‘win-more’ type of card rather than providing any real utility. Tangle Wire, Uba Mask/Sylvan Library, and Ensnaring Bridge all offer different possibilities. Engineered Explosives, Sphere of Resistance, Thran Dynamo, Static/Winter Orb, and many others are all worth investigating in my estimation. Does anyone have other ideas? What are the trouble spots in certain match-ups that we should discuss and address?

Fred Bear…

Bane of the Living

05-07-2007, 05:39 PM

Tangle Wire, Uba Mask/Sylvan Library, and Ensnaring Bridge all offer different possibilities. Engineered Explosives, Sphere of Resistance, Thran Dynamo, Static/Winter Orb, and many others are all worth investigating in my estimation. Does anyone have other ideas? What are the trouble spots in certain match-ups that we should discuss and address?

Fred Bear…

Im gonna go out on a limb here and just assume Flash with see extinction in the near future. Even if GP doesnt show them the light constant emailing and derailing of the format should eventually tune the DCI.

As for the cards you suggest..

Tangle Wire is basically what Magus replaced. He ties down your opponents resources rather than being (almost) symetrical. Its amazing against goblins and Tangle Wire was terrible. Its also a win condition, rather than dying in 4 turns. Uba Mask/Lib combo is terrible by itself. You need both halves to be anywhere near worth the turns invested in casting both. Aside from that it still isnt worth the splash for green and inability to play suppression field w/ fetchies.

Engineered Explosives simply does not impress me. I dont like boarding in cards to that interfer with Suppression Field and this is one of the cards what would usually come in against the same matchups. You can only set it at 0-1 normally and rarely 3 thanks to mox. It still isnt worth nuking a couple perms you can otherwise handle via geddon/wog/stack. If you have detrimental 1 drops to deal with I find its worth waiting the turn for Powder Keg. Its just as good against Empty the Warrens but actually have the ability to take things out that cost 2-X. It also blows up artifact lands against affinity.

Sphere of Resistance is too symetrical for me and if I need an oppressive effect against combo I go with Glowrider for the additional clock and resistance to Rebuild/RacknRuin.

Thran Dynamo is terrible since its in the same cc slot as your most important cards. If you feel the need to include more accelerants Id suggest Marble Diamond. Thats where the deck falls short on mana at times. It allows turn 3 Geddons and Magus. It also helps get double white. Its easy to cast turn one and enables busted plays on the following turn. I dont find an additional 3 colorless very usefull, its usually the white Im short on. Especially if I turbo out the accelerant with Tombs or City. Winter Orb is another card thats simply better as something else. If you can think of a matchup where you actually need this card let me know.

Your list looks very close to mine. Im running the Glowriders over the Rule of Laws and I only play 3 geddon main. Its terrible to draw 2 opening hand. If your worried about counterspells you should be..

1) Baiting with shitty cards that are still must counters..
2) Play Defense Grid maindeck.

Grid not only gives the proverbial finger to blue decks but means flash must be played on the opponents turn. Letting you safely tap out on your own to cast things.

The Big Cheese 2

05-07-2007, 06:52 PM

sammiel

05-07-2007, 07:16 PM

I am in the process of building this deck and I have to ask...
why do all you guys use the magus as opposed to the 'real thing'... I just find the land itself overall superior (only dies to land destruction when the magus has a high cc and can be swords'd as well as countered and unrecurrable).

I know that it can be a beatstick, but I still do not think that it is superior in any way (especially just because of that).

I also would like to know why no one uses the field in the MD... I know it is not all that special in some MUs, but it has proven great in a lot of MUs...

could anyone clear this up for me?

thanx in advance!

because it is DIRELY important to have a clock on your opponent in legacy stax, even if its only 2. Also, that big ass of 6 is important because you can still lose to your opponent going EoT wasteland, vialing in something, then dropping a warchief and a piledriver on his turn and swinging for the fences before you replay your tabernacle.

Magus kills any goblin he blocks, and works against one of the only removal pieces goblins is going to have. Hard to get 6 goblins into play to incinerate the magus when each one has an upkeep.

Nothing stops you from using both, but if you are only going to use one, Magus is monetarily cheaper, and better in a very important matchup. Just because this deck can beat goblins doesn't mean it consistently will.

Fred Bear

05-08-2007, 07:19 AM

@Tabernacle (Magus VS The Land) - While Sammiel makes a good point, my rationale is slightly different. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale doesn't produce mana. That's a bad land in a mana hungry deck like this. You have to play the Tabernacle in a spell slot (meaning you'll need 24-25 more lands) and a 2/6 body is better than a land in terms of a spell. Yes, the land is uncounterable - it's good for us that goblins don't play a lot of counterspells :wink: . Another issue here, is that if you don't force aggro/control to counter your Tabernacle (Magus) by using the Tabernacle (land) - they have that counter for the lock piece you wanted to play. The beatstick thing to me is secondary, especially since a lot of times he is just a wall until you secure another lock piece. Overall, I believe he is better than the land.

@Suppression Field Main Deck - If you read back through the thread, you'll see that the deck has gone through many iterations starting with Suppression Field in the main deck. As the deck has developed (this is my experience now not necessarily the rest of the thread), I was able to identify more univerisally useful cards or main deck answers to more troublesome decks and the Suppression Fields moved to the side to come in for those match ups where it really counted. [It sucks to flop one down game one and realize it takes 3 lands to waste 1 and you don't get to use it for anything else]

To continue the discussion...

Tangle Wire - Agreed. I've tested it more and it seems to many decks can continue building through it unless you have another lock piece out.

Uba Mask/Sylvan Library - I would have to agree. I just don't think there's room to put it in - no match-up seems that good to open up that many slots. I still just think it's a neat combo.

Engineered Explosives - I'm going to disagree here. I have found it to be much better than Powder Keg. I have had a lot of luck setting it at 0-2 with a Mox and a Plains and I can always get it around useful Chalices. By the time Powder Keg can remove 2+, I've found it too late (3 turns to deal with a 3cc that will take out my Trinisphere and/or Crucible is too much). Higher CC spells must be dealt with other ways, Smokestack, Armageddon, Trinishpere (to slow them until Smokestack/Armageddon).

Sphere of Resistance - It is symmetrical, but I'm not convinced that the symmetry makes it unplayable. I don't know that it is playable, I just don't know if it helps any match-up enough.

Thran Dynamo - It's not great, I'll give you that. I look at it as redundancy for Crucible. With it out, Armageddon is really one sided. I think it may be 'win-more', though.

Winter Orb - I agree with you here. It does just seem inferior to other choices.

Ensnaring Bridge - I noticed you didn't mention it and I have seen it in your earlier builds. How effective has it been for you?

I also am not nearly as sad to get 2 Armageddon in my opener. It usually takes 1 more card (and lands obviously) until they will both get cast. Against control it's awesome because they counter one and then the next makes it through. The only time I've really encountered problems with counters and when they open with 3-4 in hand and my first 4 spells fizzle. Those become rough, but still not unwinnable.

Fred Bear...

realmlord

05-10-2007, 10:35 AM

I was looking for advice about the card Portcullis from Stronghold. Would that be a possible trump card against Hulk-Flash? How would it work against the Disciple version? If anyone knows how this would interact, let me know.

As suggested by another player from my area, this card trumps the Kiki version especially with turn 1 Trinisphere, Turn 2 Portcullis. It would be a must bounce and makes time to get the Chalice for 2 in place.

The worry we have is over the interaction with the Disciple version. Any clues?

Lich

05-10-2007, 11:41 AM

Combination of:

# If multiple creatures come into play at once, due to Living Death for example, then Portcullis will trigger on all of those creatures. The player controlling Portcullis decides the order to resolve the Portcullis triggers and therefore chooses which two creatures stay in play (assuming that none were already in play... if some were already in play he might not really get a choice). All the others get yanked by the Portcullis. [D'Angelo 1998/06/11]

If any creature comes into play which has a "comes into play" ability (see Rule 410.10a), that ability is still applied even if Portcullis removes that creature from play before you resolve the ability. [D'Angelo 1998/06/11]

So as we have come to expect from hate for Flash, Portcullis doesn't do anything against the Disciple version. Cool idea though.

realmlord

05-10-2007, 11:49 AM

With the Disciple version, there are no CiP abilities only "goes to graveyard" triggers. But, I think state-based effects will be checked and the robots die before Portcullis can remove 2 of the 4 Disciples.

Lich

05-10-2007, 01:02 PM

http://forums.mtgnews.com/showthread.php?p=2935628#post2935628
Ok, response from a level II judge is that what happens is that all of the 0cc artifacts go to the graveyard before Portcullis even triggers, which triggers DotV, then Portcullis triggers, removes two of the DotV, and then all the DotV triggers resolve anyway, and you still die.
Ah well.

realmlord

05-10-2007, 01:40 PM

Oh well. back to the drawing board. This deck can beat Flash on a good day, I just wanted to have another weapon.

Goblin Snowman

05-10-2007, 01:56 PM

Oh well. back to the drawing board. This deck can beat Flash on a good day, I just wanted to have another weapon.

The best bet I think is Humility. We can power it out very quickly, and even if they bounce it it gives us time to find a Chalice.

realmlord

05-10-2007, 02:02 PM

I agree. I run 3 Humility in the SB.

I also have contemplated putting 4 Leyline of the Void in the side and 2 - 3 Scrubland in the main. I think that may be over-reacting on my part though.

Lich

05-10-2007, 02:47 PM

But how do you plan to win with a Humility in play?
I suppose once you have a Chalice for 1 and 2 in play, you can play a Smokestack and sac your own Humility, but that just seems so ungodly slow.

realmlord

05-10-2007, 02:53 PM

4x Mishra's Factory is my best way to win with Humility out. They are still 2/2 because of timestamp. And they recur with Crucible out.

If it looks like I need a quick Angel win, I can sac Humility to the Smokestack and finish the job.

Bane of the Living

05-11-2007, 06:11 PM

Engineered Explosives - I'm going to disagree here. I have found it to be much better than Powder Keg. I have had a lot of luck setting it at 0-2 with a Mox and a Plains and I can always get it around useful Chalices. By the time Powder Keg can remove 2+, I've found it too late (3 turns to deal with a 3cc that will take out my Trinisphere and/or Crucible is too much). Higher CC spells must be dealt with other ways, Smokestack, Armageddon, Trinishpere (to slow them until Smokestack/Armageddon).

Sphere of Resistance - It is symmetrical, but I'm not convinced that the symmetry makes it unplayable. I don't know that it is playable, I just don't know if it helps any match-up enough.

Thran Dynamo - It's not great, I'll give you that. I look at it as redundancy for Crucible. With it out, Armageddon is really one sided. I think it may be 'win-more', though.

Ensnaring Bridge - I noticed you didn't mention it and I have seen it in your earlier builds. How effective has it been for you?

I also am not nearly as sad to get 2 Armageddon in my opener. It usually takes 1 more card (and lands obviously) until they will both get cast. Against control it's awesome because they counter one and then the next makes it through. The only time I've really encountered problems with counters and when they open with 3-4 in hand and my first 4 spells fizzle. Those become rough, but still not unwinnable.

Fred Bear...

Ill assume your talking to me.

The reason I prefer Powder Keg over EE is preference. Both can deal with Affinity's artifact lands for the same amount of mana. EE can take out Enchantments and Keg can hit things that are at the top of the curve. I usually dont bring these in aside from Fish matchups. Where you really want to hit for 2. Something you'll need a diamond for.

Sphere of Resistance isnt good enough to sb in against any deck but combo. Even then, Hulk Flash will be the combo decks and it does little to nothing against them. There are better cards to put in your board.

Dynamo isnt good enough to take a lock piece out of the deck.

Ensnaring Bridge was bad in multiples and would tie my angels down unless I also had Bottled Cloister. A great combo mind you! The other thing is I couldnt get the last card or two out of hand often times. I'd just get hit repeatedly by 1/1's and 2/2's. It's got nothing on Piledriver. Its also redundant with Ghostly Prison since they're pretty much trying to do the same things.

The thing with Geddon is there arent even many decks where the card is a bomb. Granted this deck abuses the ever living shit out of it, its only a great card against land.dec, Landstill, and Solidarity. Two of those decks just took a huge hit to HF. Solidarity will usually just be Remanding Geddon, meaning a second in hand is more than terrible. You should be baiting FoWs with lesser lock pieces and never ever playing into Daze. Drawing 2 geddons against decks like goblins and thresh will just lose you the game sometimes.

Lich

05-12-2007, 02:05 PM

I know you said you'd prefer going into this matchup with your pants down, but I really don't want to do that. If GPTs are an indication (which we have to assume they are) Hulk Flash will be out in force at Columbus, and it will be winning.
That having been said, I took out 2 Ghostly Prison and 1 Magus out of the maindeck, because creature strategies are just not going to cut it with Hulk around, and put in 3 Defense Grid. My sideboard is 3 Mana Tithe, 3 Humility, 1 Defense Grid, 4 Leyline of the Void, and 4 Lotus Petal. So after sideboarding, my deck looks like this:
8 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
4 Flagstones
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Exalted Angel
4 Smokestack
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice
4 Defense Grid
3 Humility
3 Mana Tithe
2 Crucible

This gives you 4 Leyline, 4 Chalice, and 3 Humility, all of which must be bounced or countered before the combo can go off, and 3 Mana Tithe to counter if they try to go off early and which they definitely won't be expecting, or to force through something around FoW, or to counter a crucial bounce spell. A turn 1 Smokestack with a Flagstones or a Crucible is obviously also a strong play. I don't yet know if the full set of Defense Grid is necessary against Flash after boarding, so maybe 3 Crucible/3 Defense Grid would be fine, or even keep in a few Trinisphere. The Trinisphere is probably much better if you're on the play, to keep them from Duressing/Unmasking you, so maybe it would hinge on that.

If anyone wants to help me playtest, my AIM is anempireofdust

Edit: I just goldfished 20 games or so, and the great thing about having so many threats is you actually have more threats that they can't win through than they have bounce spells, and you start playing yours on turn 1, and can play them every turn after. I mean, if you start with Chalice, Humility, and Leyline in your opening hand, and you have a bit of mana, you play the Leyline, they can't counter it, then you play Chalice for one, and it shuts off Mystical Tutor, Chain of Vapor, Duress, and all their cantrips, and they have to dig for their one Echoing Truth/Wipe Away with Diabolic Vision and Lim-Dul's Vault, and by the time they've found it and cast it, you already have either a Chalice for 2, a Humility, or some other win condition in play. Even without the Chalice, a Leyline buys you plenty of time to get another win into play, as even if they just Mystical Tutor for Chain of Vapor, that's a whole two turns for you to play must-counters. Most versions of Flash only have four bounce spells total, even after boarding. I think the explosive mana of this deck gives it a fair chance against Flash. Maybe I will go to the GP after all...

Edit: Wipe Away costs 3, I was thinking about Wear Away, motherFUCKER...

Another edit: After some more games, I find this deck gives the Kiki deck insane mana fits. Defense Grid makes them incapable of bouncing Leyline or Chalice on your turn, and they can't cast it on their own obviously or you'll just replay it. Trinisphere makes it difficult for them to dig with their cantrips. I'm thinking of taking an entirely different route with Defense Grids, Suppression Fields (they only play 8 non-fetch lands), Trinisphere, and Armageddon, making it so they just can't cast anything. This means you don't need to run the Humilities in the sideboard, and may not need to run Mana Tithe.
The thing is, I'm thinking that the Kiki-Jiki version will be played more than the Disciple version, and if not, I pretty much bend over. But I had this idea, since I was having NO trouble forcing things through: Cranial Extraction. It seems to me, with 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Mox, you can almost always cast it, and it just outright wins as soon as it resolves, which is more often than you'd think, against both version. Any thoughts on that?

Gui

05-16-2007, 06:28 PM

So...
I like Samurai of the Pale Curtain... whats your opinion? Costs less than humility maybe...

realmlord

05-22-2007, 10:38 AM

I played Angel Stax (splash black for Leyline of the Void) at GP Columbus and started a respectable 3-1 with no byes. That is when the wheels fell off and the bus hit me. I decided to finish the tourney since my 2 of my team mates were still contending for Day 2 with their Hulk-Flash decks. I ended up 4-5 with the following results:

Rd 1 vs. Stephen Judd with U/Bw Vile Horror (W 2-0) (Matches 1-0)

Rd 2 vs. Manuel with U/Gw Threshold (W 2-1) (Matches 2-0)

Rd 3 vs. Richard Feldman with BG Trinity (L 0-2) (Matches 2-1)

Rd 4 B/W Deadguy (W 2-0) (Matches 3-1)

Rd 5 Hulk-Flash with Kiki Jiki (L 1-2) (Matches 3-2)

Rd 6 R/g Goblins (L 0-2) (Matches 3-3)

Rd 7 Hulk-Flash with Kiki Jiki (L 0-2) (Matches 3-4)

Rd 8 Mono-B Pox (W 2-0) (Matches 4-4)

Rd 9 Mono-B Discard/Coffers (L 1-2) (Matches (4-5)

My list for the tournament was as follows:

Creatures (7)
4 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Enchantments (6)
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Suppression Field

Artifacts (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
4 Mox Diamond

Sorceries (3)
3 Armageddon

Land (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Scrubland
6 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Damping Matrix
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Glowrider
1 Rule of Law
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Divine Intervention

Goblin Snowman

05-22-2007, 11:51 AM

If I was going to run Angel Stax right now, my list would look something like this;

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crainial Extration
2x Leyline of the Void
3x Smokestack
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Cataclasm

4x Juggernaut
4x Phyrexian Negator

4x Mox Diamond
4x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine
1x Windswept Heath
3x Plains
4x Flagstones
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
1x Mishra's Factory

SB
2x Leyline of the Void
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Trinisphere
1x Planar Void

Silverdragon

05-22-2007, 11:58 AM

For the last few weeks I was testing a Stax build for the Flash and Fish metagame I predicted but I couldn't finish the list before the GP and thought that all the smart players should play Flash anyway.
So maybe a bit too late but nonetheless here's the list I'd be playing if Flash isn't banned (note that if Flash isn't banned I'll quit Legacy but whatever):
4 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains

4 Powder Keg
3 Smokestack
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel

SB

4 Aven Mindcensor (Samurai of the Pale Curtain at the GP)
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 unsure... (maybe I'll keep my Duskrider Peregrines or try Dodecapod)

4 Wastelands maindeck because they are so good against all those multicolor decks running wild and even monocolor decks have good targets. There were only 2 MD in the previous list because they do nothing against Solidarity and the space was needed for Factories against random aggro and Goblins.
1 Tabernacle as uncounterable taxing effect against Aggro-control. Previously unneeded because Chalice @1 was so good against Thresh however against Fish Chalice @1 does not as much so it's harder to get lockpieces to stick.
2/2 split of Geddon effects because Meddling Mages are everywhere.
4 Powder Keg because it is a Wrath against Fish and you can often cast it on turn 1 without losing your flexibility.
1 Smokestack was the easiest cut for Tabernacle in a fast combo-heavy meta.
No Trinispheres because HulkFlash only needs to resolve a single spell and that already costs 2 so 1 more mana to win the game is not the disruption you want against them. It is good but it is not as relevant as Powder Keg in the Fish match.
The sideboard is pretty much the same as it was before except that I moved all Wastelands and Kegs/Explosives to the MD so I have 4 more cards I can add and it turns out that Aven Mindcensor from Future Sight is a great hoser in the right matchup.
Compared to the Samurai it simply comes down to how often you'll get WW compared to 2W before the Flash player can go off. However sometimes 3cc is nice to get around Chalice @2 and the ability to flash in the Aven should also not be underestimated.

edit: I was typing while Goblin Snowman posted his list so sorry for putting a third list right below :)
Imho the black splash is justifiable but not that good. Adding Leyline and Cranial Extraction weakens the main plan of the deck (ressource/mana-denial) and Phyrexian Negator is not the threat I'd want in this deck. (Gathan Raiders maybe?)
I think it was bane_of_the_living who already said why Cataclysm is bad in this deck and I think it's still true so no Cataclysm for me (in case you missed it there are just too many cards you want to keep on the board and Stax is a deck full of permanents so the odds of you having more permanents than your opponent and Cataclysm not affecting him at all are just too high [those are the 2 biggest factors iirc])
Only 2 Crucible is at least 1 too few if you ask me however I haven't tested your version yet so maybe this deck can live with "the shakiest manabase ever" (of course I'm exaggerating).

Lich

05-22-2007, 12:10 PM

I also played W/b Angel Stax at the GP, and I ended up 5-3. I started out with a bye, lost to Kiki Hulk Flash (TERRIBLE draws and he won on turn 3 both games), beat some scrub with a Guilty Conscience/Stuffy Doll deck, beat Charbelcher, lost to goblins, beat UGr thresh, beat Kiki Hulk Flash (the sideboard plan worked perfectly; he couldn't bounce my Leyline on my turn because of Defense Grid, and he never got the mana to bounce and Flash on his turn because of Trinisphere), and then lost to goblins again. And no, I don't know how I managed to play goblins 3 times at this tournament, since I saw like 10 people playing it total.

My list was:
4 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Scrubland
4 Plains

Sideboard:
4 Cranial Extraction
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Defense Grid
3 Engineered Explosives

I don't think I would actually change anything about the maindeck, it was great for me. The problem was, of course, having a mostly useless sideboard against creature decks, so when it's banned, I'm going to go back to a better one.
That is, assuming it's banned. If it's not, fuck this format and fuck Wizards.

I saw a guy at the tournament playing Mobilization main, which seemed pretty funny with Smokestack. He said he played Mobilization as the game 1 win, and then game 2 when they boarded out their Swords and stuff he boarded in Angels. That part didn't seem too necessary, since I Chalice at 1 against most decks anyway, but I thought it was pretty cool. Mobilization + Humility is pretty great as well.

Goblin Snowman

05-22-2007, 03:09 PM

4 Wastelands maindeck because they are so good against all those multicolor decks running wild and even monocolor decks have good targets. There were only 2 MD in the previous list because they do nothing against Solidarity and the space was needed for Factories against random aggro and Goblins.

Since you only need one, running four never sat well with me, and if I was adding another color, I'd have to drop some for consistency.

1 Tabernacle as uncounterable taxing effect against Aggro-control. Previously unneeded because Chalice @1 was so good against Thresh however against Fish Chalice @1 does not as much so it's harder to get lockpieces to stick.

Well, with my list above running creatures far larger than theirs, it seemed a bit too much against a deck with about 16 creatures.

2/2 split of Geddon effects because Meddling Mages are everywhere.
4 Powder Keg because it is a Wrath against Fish and you can often cast it on turn 1 without losing your flexibility.

Power Keg turns me off largely because it can't kill Karmix Guide Tokens, or prevent said tokens from killing you (unless you have 5 turns)

No Trinispheres because HulkFlash only needs to resolve a single spell and that already costs 2 so 1 more mana to win the game is not the disruption you want against them. It is good but it is not as relevant as Powder Keg in the Fish match.

Same reasoning for me

edit: I was typing while Goblin Snowman posted his list so sorry for putting a third list right below :)
Imho the black splash is justifiable but not that good. Adding Leyline and Cranial Extraction weakens the main plan of the deck (ressource/mana-denial) and Phyrexian Negator is not the threat I'd want in this deck. (Gathan Raiders maybe?)
I think it was bane_of_the_living who already said why Cataclysm is bad in this deck and I think it's still true so no Cataclysm for me (in case you missed it there are just too many cards you want to keep on the board and Stax is a deck full of permanents so the odds of you having more permanents than your opponent and Cataclysm not affecting him at all are just too high [those are the 2 biggest factors iirc])
Only 2 Crucible is at least 1 too few if you ask me however I haven't tested your version yet so maybe this deck can live with "the shakiest manabase ever" (of course I'm exaggerating).

It comes down to what the goals of the deck are... mine is to win against Hulk Flash since the deck just rapes Fish from how much I've been playing it. Even if Extration is just Cabal Theropy that can remove Disenchants and other outs from the match, it seems fine in the Fish MU to me. MD Leyline might be excessive, but I'd probably just replace it with Mindcensor MD since it eats a Meddling Mage and can stop Fetches as an instant. Negator kill them in 4 turns as opposed to 6-7 if you play him on turn 2... kinda a big deal, since there isn't really any Burn in the format any more.

While I can see the reasoning behind not running it, I personnally think your a fool not to run it. It's useful in every match up, and unless you either play into your own sweeper or have a mad 4x Ghostly Prison draw (then you should win anyway... just saying) you will lose very few cards. It's like saying Deed doesn't belong in Rock because it kills off BOP. Your call thoughl, I've just had fantastic results with it.

Silverdragon

05-22-2007, 04:40 PM

Goblin Snowman

05-22-2007, 06:10 PM

You obviously use Powder Keg to kill Carrion Feeder in the Hulk matchup.
Against Fish big guys are good I agree however they can be StP'ed or countered so I added the singleton Tabernacle to be on the safe side. In the end it sure is a question of metagaming (tuning more against Fish or more against Hulk) and personal preference (low risk - low reward or high risk - high reward).

Right, but that still takes a turn after you play it. I'd honestly rather run Engineered Explosives. Against Fish, they usually have only 2 creatures out (just how games go for me, using Hanni Fish for the deck to play against) and just have to not be bad players with Meddling Mage and Countermagic, stopping Armageddon. Also, I'm willing to bet that Wasteland is still going to be around, and wasting my land drop for it seems poor at best.

It doesn't seem like it's any higher of a risk than running Magus/Angel. They let you close the game in a reasonable amount of time, and are larger than anything in the format.

sammiel

05-22-2007, 06:13 PM

Power Keg turns me off largely because it can't kill Karmix Guide Tokens, or prevent said tokens from killing you (unless you have 5 turns)

Is this a joke?

tokens have a CMC of zero, making deed and powder keg at zero a must bounce before a kiki-jiki player can combo off.

Goblin Snowman

05-22-2007, 08:36 PM

Is this a joke?

tokens have a CMC of zero, making deed and powder keg at zero a must bounce before a kiki-jiki player can combo off.

Tokens do, but not copies of a creature. This has been dealt with before, and I'm not going to look up the ruling again, but feel free to yourself. It's the same with Soul Foundry and any other card that puts tokens into play that are copies of a creature. Cost is copied.

sammiel

05-22-2007, 08:40 PM

Tokens do, but not copies of a creature. This has been dealt with before, and I'm not going to look up the ruling again, but feel free to yourself. It's the same with Soul Foundry and any other card that puts tokens into play that are copies of a creature. Cost is copied.

It does specify token that is a copy of the creature.

I stand corrected, and that's really gay.

Goblin Snowman

05-22-2007, 09:06 PM

It does specify token that is a copy of the creature.

I stand corrected, and that's really gay.

I know... otherwise, I'd be much happier with Keg in the deck.

eternaldarkness

05-23-2007, 05:26 AM

Bane of the Living

05-23-2007, 04:33 PM

Doesn't Suppression Field stop the Kikki-Jikki combo from going infinite? In that case I think 4 Maindeck Fields should be used along with 4 Leylines + 4 Mana Tithe/Serum Powder in the side. All you have to do is delay the combo with Leyline/Mana Tithe early game until you can cast a Suppression Field. Now they have two permanents (Leyline and Field) they have to bounce before they can go off.

This is the most significant post in the thread. Suppression Field is boss against Kiki verision and casting it turn one or two will often let you follow up with a lethal LotV or CotV@2. Im thinking of swapping to the Humility version which would obviously dump Ghostly Prison and either Angel or Magus from the maindeck. Im thinking the latter.

Here is my newest version. I wish I brought it to GP..

mana 29
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Mox Diamond

lock 31
3 Suppression Field
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
1 Defense Grid
3 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Enlightened Tutor

Kill 4
2 Voidstone Gargoyle
2 Crovax

I really like the build here that amplifies the ability to cast Chalice@2. Enlightened Tutor is very significant to the deck at this point. Chalice @1 is still worth playing against fish but tutoring for your one of Grid or Prison can be game winning. You can tutor a SF to cast turn two. The kill conditions are experimental but both are stellar against the flash matchup.

Crovax can kill the Carrion Feeder off and acts like a plague against goblins. He can never die. Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field both need to be bounced for the Kiki Version of flash and the Voidstone is a great last nail in the coffen.

sammiel

05-23-2007, 09:17 PM

Silverdragon

05-23-2007, 09:46 PM

uh, ghostly prison shuts down the kiki-kill too, is good against aggro, and destroys ETW which humility does nothing against. Stuff like crovax and gargoyle are just way too slow, and too specific against flash.

Adding suppression fields to a typical mana-denial heavy build of W-stax should be enough to improve your flash matchup without ruining your other ones, as SF is already a great metagame call for the deck anyway.

Agreed. Although I like the idea of re-adding Crystal Veins to support the higher cc pieces and Chalice @2.
The current meta is also one of the few cases where I won't argue about the MD Enlightened Tutor.

Machinus

06-06-2007, 07:07 PM

Citrus-God

06-06-2007, 07:26 PM

How have the Engineered Explosives been so far? Why should we run them over Powder Keg?

Machinus

06-06-2007, 07:38 PM

The two slots are pretty close to each other in terms of functionality. I like explosives better a lot of the time because the deck is still a control deck, and you often can't afford to wait the one or two turns to kill a key permanent. Another bonus is that Chalice never stops Explosives, even at two.

The mana difference is a little hard in the early game, but at that point I think the deck should be setting up the lock. It also gives the deck a respectable play with one mana, which I like.

Basically I think both cards are good, but in the mid-late game when you have a mana surplus, Explosives doesn't give the opponent any time to react.

Citrus-God

06-06-2007, 07:44 PM

Silverdragon

06-06-2007, 08:28 PM

Now that that mistake has left the format, here is a new-ish version of this deck to try out. I think the meta has reached a point where the weaknesses of this deck are finally being addressed by other archetypes. Chalice is still as good as it was two years ago, and the deck can now afford to run way more mana sources and a much lower curve. Check it out:

3 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Explosives

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Troikar
7 Plains

SB:
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Defense Grid
4 Tormod's Crypt

Could you explain this list a bit more? I guess by saying "I think the meta has reached a point where the weaknesses of this deck are finally being addressed by other archetypes" you mean Goblins is hated out by combo?
Why no Wastelands, are 3 Armageddon enough? How is Tangle Wire doing?
No more Angels is interesting too and why only 3 Trinispheres?
Again what is the meta you are looking at?

Tacosnape

06-06-2007, 10:13 PM

If you're running Bottled Cloister (boggle), I can't help but wonder if Ensnaring Bridge belongs in here somewhere, seeing as how they combine so well.

sammiel

06-07-2007, 02:23 AM

you must have a really weird meta if you feel comfortable without your ghostly prisons MD.

Tangle Wire seems bad in stax, it has never ever tested well for me and I cut almost immediately after starting to play the deck.

Engineered Explosives seems superfluous to this deck, regardless of the extra time involved I would still stick with powder kegs, or just give in and run another non-permanent removal spell. I have had alot of success with Return to Dust, at its worst its an overcosted disenchant that RFGs, at its best it's a clutch two for one card that more than makes up for it not being a perm.

Although I agree with cutting Angels from the MD if you add factories, I still think they belong in the sideboard, as does suppression field for gobs, and some sort of better permanent than defense grid against storm combo.

White stax actually has an iffy solidarity matchup, as your entire lock can be wished away, so I would never leave home without something like rule of law for the sideboard.

Fred Bear

06-07-2007, 09:08 AM

@ Machinus - I must say I'm a little confused by your recent list as well... What match-ups are strengthened by increasing the land count, removing a Trinisphere, some Ghostly Prisons, and the Exalted Angels, and adding in Tangle Wire and Engineered Explosives? Exactly what 'weaknesses' are being addressed by which 'other archetypes'? With Flash removed from the format, how much difference do you really envision in the meta from where it was prior to the errata-removal? I can believe that a couple new decks may result from the un-bannings, but I agree that it doesn't appear to be anything that makes this deck unplayable in an open meta. I, as many others have stated in past posts, have found Tangle Wire to be unecessary (and generally poor) in Legacy [it rocks in Vintage Stax or really any Welder Stax environment]. And while I agree with Engineered Explosives over Powder Keg, I haven't seen the need as a 4-of since it is very situational. I also tend to disagree with your suggested mana base. I've several times wished for another 2-mana land, but in testing I never like having to use Crystal Vein for it (unless it's to cast a Crucible or Armageddon). I've just always found that this deck likes to play permanents, not give up permanents to play other permanents. As for the sideboard - I still believe Suppression Field is deserving of a slot and as many others have already pointed out, having a second out vs decks with 'sweepers' is important (i.e. Rule of Law vs Rebuild, etc.).

The current list that I'm tinkering with is...

//Land (24)

4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
8 [UNH] Plains
2 [BOK] Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai

//Creatures (5)

2 [FUT] Epochrasite
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

//Spells (29)

4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [P2] Armageddon
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

//Sideboard (15)

3 [RAV] Suppression Field
4 [UL] Defense Grid
2 [UL] Crawlspace
2 [MR] Rule of Law
2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
2 [MM] Spiritual Focus

I'm just now testing with the Epocrasites, a recurring creature that likes to be sac'ed can't be all bad. I still think there may be a couple slots that are up in the air, but without knowing what you might face in an actual tournament situation - I don't know how you'd know which ones to tinker with. The sideboard is pretty general and I change it almost daily to see what could be brought in situationally. Suppression Field is too good against some of the tougher match-ups to drop in my opinion. Defense Grid is in the same boat. Rule of Law forces a combo player to bounce twice (and usually counter at least once) to go off. Crawlspace, I've found, does the same thing to aggro. Tormod's Crypt is good sometimes, unnecessary sometimes, but with Replenish in the cardpool now - I think it will be more good. And I like to dedicate a couple slots to discard decks - I've tried Library of Leng and Spiritual Focus which I prefer since the life gain is situationally worthwile.

Fred Bear...

Goblin Snowman

06-07-2007, 11:52 AM

That looks fairly similar to my build, except I've been comtemplating running Blue for Pendrell Mists (immune to creature hate, not so immune to Tranquil Domain though) and Propoganda, and I'm running Horizon Canopy as a draw engine with Crucible, as giving them some extra life doesn't matter, and the deck really wants a source of card advantage. I still think that Explosives is worse than Seal of Clensing, since you already eat aggro for breakfast.

Fred Bear

06-07-2007, 12:51 PM

Horizon Canopy looks interesting, but without a need for green, paying 1 life for mana or cycling for :1: (assuming of course that Crucible is in play) just doesn't seem like enough benefit for the slot. I think that if you were to play this, you could get better CA by using the green and playing Sylvan Library but I really believe that's an entirely different list. I have looked at a lot of 'draw' options and believe that there may be better opportunity in either selection mechanics (New Benalia, Conch Horn) or retrieval mechanics (Treasure Hunter, Junk Diver). I am also consistently intrigued by stuff like Copper Gnomes, but I just don't think any are really necessary in this format. The prison or enough components can come online quickly enough to lock up a good percentage of games.

I've often though about going down the blue stax road since Propaganda easily replaces Prison, Arcane Laboratory - Rule of Law, Pendrell Mists - Magus of the Tabernacle, but I always miss my 'geddons :cry: (which are still very, very good). Most of the decks I've seen or played against with blue also use subpar finishers in my opinion (I'm not saying that there aren't options, just that I don't think they've been properly worked into the stax shell). Ultimately, for me anyways, Suppression Field (no blue/artifact permanent replacement unless you count Damping Matrix which doesn't affect lands) > Manlands and I believe that blue, in general, will suffer more 'splash' damage (i.e. Pyroblast in sideboards to deal with spells now kill permanents) but I have no proof to back that up.

I don't believe that aggro is always the walk-in-the-park you make it out to be. Without a solid draw and a little luck, it is fairly easy to find yourself on the wrong end of a drubbing. EE gives you 1 more tool to slow them down. It's also very good in other match-ups like Fish, Deadguy, and Threshold. I would be willing to concede that the maindeck slots could be used for a better general or meta-based effect, but EE has always helped me. [Note- as Machinus pointed out it really is a huge benefit to be able to drop EE on 1 or 2 with a Chalice out at that number.]

Fred Bear...

Goblin Snowman

06-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Horizon Canopy looks interesting, but without a need for green, paying 1 life for mana or cycling for :1: (assuming of course that Crucible is in play) just doesn't seem like enough benefit for the slot. I think that if you were to play this, you could get better CA by using the green and playing Sylvan Library but I really believe that's an entirely different list. I have looked at a lot of 'draw' options and believe that there may be better opportunity in either selection mechanics (New Benalia, Conch Horn) or retrieval mechanics (Treasure Hunter, Junk Diver). I am also consistently intrigued by stuff like Copper Gnomes, but I just don't think any are really necessary in this format. The prison or enough components can come online quickly enough to lock up a good percentage of games.

You give them one life, you don't take a damage, an important factor in a deck that is already vunerable to direct damage. Canopy is nice because it's a white mana source and can be a draw engine, where as straight card drawing is, well, card drawing.

I've often though about going down the blue stax road since Propaganda easily replaces Prison, Arcane Laboratory - Rule of Law, Pendrell Mists - Magus of the Tabernacle, but I always miss my 'geddons :cry: (which are still very, very good). Most of the decks I've seen or played against with blue also use subpar finishers in my opinion (I'm not saying that there aren't options, just that I don't think they've been properly worked into the stax shell). Ultimately, for me anyways, Suppression Field (no blue/artifact permanent replacement unless you count Damping Matrix which doesn't affect lands) > Manlands and I believe that blue, in general, will suffer more 'splash' damage (i.e. Pyroblast in sideboards to deal with spells now kill permanents) but I have no proof to back that up.

I would use Angel Stax with just a blue splash for the best cards. The best finisher imo in Blue Stax btw has got to be Acadamy Ruins + Jester's Cap. Yeah, it's horribly slow, but it's almost impossible to stop and makes creature removal dead.

I don't believe that aggro is always the walk-in-the-park you make it out to be. Without a solid draw and a little luck, it is fairly easy to find yourself on the wrong end of a drubbing. EE gives you 1 more tool to slow them down. It's also very good in other match-ups like Fish, Deadguy, and Threshold. I would be willing to concede that the maindeck slots could be used for a better general or meta-based effect, but EE has always helped me. [Note- as Machinus pointed out it really is a huge benefit to be able to drop EE on 1 or 2 with a Chalice out at that number.]

I'd run Wrath of God MD over EE, but Goblins/Random Aggro without huge enchantment removal is the best MU for my wierd build of Stax. I'll PM you the list sometime.

sammiel

06-07-2007, 03:47 PM

you have the R/G land confused with the G/W land.

Fred Bear

06-07-2007, 04:36 PM

@ Goblin Snowman

See Sammiel's comment about the land.

I hadn't thought about Cap. I would've gone down the road of Chronatog Totem for a Blue Stax finisher, but that's a different thread entirely.

The problem, again in my mind anyhow, with Wrath is that it hits only 1 type of card in play. I can knock out Counterbalance, Werebear, and a Meddling Mage all with 1 EE set at 2. Powder Keg is the only other card that really compares and it is definitely better if your meta is filled with man-lands and affinity.

I look forward to the list, though, please PM when you can.

@ Everyone

Maybe to jumpstart some discussion of the list based on some of these comments - What Blue cards would be strong enough to splash? For that matter, what cards in any color (if there are any) would be good enough to 'splash' for? I haven't really had a need, but I'm not convinced that means anything :wink:.

And what are the 'new' bad matchups in post-June 20th Legacy? Are there easy solutions to PandeBurst and other new decks? Is there amazing new tech to be discovered with this deck?

Fred Bear...

sammiel

06-07-2007, 05:09 PM

The best things blue really has to add is Hatching Plans and Academy Ruins...Hatching Plans is potentially really really terrible, which I don't think makes up for its sort of synergy with smokestack. Ruins is ok, at worst it guarantees you a permanent each turn, at best you can recur either a removal artifact, or a sacrificing win condition, such as jester's cap.

I still think a green or red splash would be stronger.

Goblin Snowman

06-07-2007, 05:39 PM

Yes, I am retarded regarding Land apparently. So that decreases significantly in usefulness, but it's still the best draw engine that does something else imo.

sammiel

06-07-2007, 05:50 PM

if you want a draw engine in stax, you can use sylvan library + uba mask...drop ghostly prisons for ensnaring bridges. Although Sylvan Library is pretty decent on its own.

Machinus

06-07-2007, 09:51 PM

Good questions.

One thing about Stax is that is a Control deck, and so the answers must be as relevant as possible for the meta in which you are playing. This really affects, drastically, the card choices in the maindeck and sideboard. I can make a list specifically for the SCG environment I am preparing for, but it is better just to differentiate between core choices and more flexible slots. This new version of the deck changes the second focus of the deck; the versions from 2005 and 2006 were all built around Chalice and Wrath; this one is built around Chalice and Magus.

I consider the more flexible slots to be the Explosives, Tangles, Trinispheres, and the last two land slots. There aren't very many cards that can be fit in here, and I think these are probably the best cards to run. Also keep in mind the deck has to have a mana curve, so the slots aren't totally flexible. If you cut the explosives, you have to have Keg, which is slower, or Seal, which doesn't kill Lackey or Mongoose, or something similar. The point is that the deck is a Control deck, so the cards have to support each other, otherwise reacting to the meta fails to work. Having a mana curve and appropriate answers are necessary.

The Ghostly Prisons are SB because I feel like the chance of playing aggro multiplied by the ok game one against it isn't so low that they are better maindeck. If your meta is different, put the Tangle Wire's in the SB, or even change them for Rule of Law in the board if that is better. I really like Tangle Wire but Ghostly Prison is excellent against Aggro and Aggro-Control, and works very well in combination with the Armageddons and Magi.

From that list, I think it is totally fine to cut one Crystal Vein for an Armageddon. I might even make that change myself. The Veins allow you to accelerate into Armageddon and Magus in order to trap your opponent at the most opportune times. You are saccing your lands to it anyway - you should be getting the most out of them.

That list also doesn't run any WW spells. It makes a huge difference in how aggressive the deck can be, and I think it's stronger to have a deck that is resilent under aggressive mulliganing and consecutive proactive plays. This is the only way Stax is good and it has to take advantage of this.

Regarding the actual metagame, yes I'm talking significantly about Goblins, but I'm also talking about the adoption of disruption for Combo decks that is becoming more prevalent. This also makes a lot of room for Stax exploit low curves and spell-based strategies. Stax is very good against Aggro-Control and Combo decks and those are becoming the consistenly successful strategies in the format right now.

(Here's the deck with the minor changes I just mentioned:

4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Troikar
7 Plains

SB:
4 Tangle Wire
4 Defense Grid
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Bottled Cloister

The Cloisters are there for two reasons. The main one is that heavy discard causes problems for Stax if it doesn't get going fast enough. Cloister draws you back into the game and protects you from the discard, which can be critical. The second reason is that Cloister is amazing against Control decks, which are uncommon but still a relevant archetype.)

Fred Bear

06-08-2007, 01:45 AM

I think we have very different philosophies about the deck, so I'll apologize up front for playing devil's advocate to several of the points you make about the deck in general. I think it's important, though, to note that many play decisions are based on the actual list you run and how you perceive the situations that arise during your match-ups (I'll also apologize up front for a lengthy post, but I hope people playing this deck may find useful).

I'll agree that Stax is a control deck, but I don't believe it's at all intuitive that it's the type of control deck that you seem to make it out to be. Stax is a board control or Prison deck more specifically - which is really a different class of deck altogether (in my opinion). I would not refer to most of the cards in the Stax shell as 'answers' but they are rather 'threats' for the decks we play against since really most of our permanents require that they be 'answered'. They are most definitely not traditional 'threats' like a Lackey or Mongoose, though, but Smokestack is by no means a traditional 'answer' either. I would agree too that it is worthwhile to distinguish between Core and Meta slots for the sake of discussion.

Now, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact that the deck needs a mana curve, at least in any traditional sense. This deck is built to 'cheat' the entire concept of a mana curve (like any Stax deck, Vintage or Legacy). We play 2-mana lands and Mox Diamonds to allow us 2-3 mana on turn 1 and 4 (where we 'curve' out) on turn 2. In fact, I believe the most important ability of this deck (not that it needs to in order to win or anything like that) is that it can reliably cast Chalice at 2. I don't know that there is another deck that can do it anywhere near as consistently as this deck. And for that reason alone, I don't know that it is at all necessary to play cards in the maindeck at under 3-CC unless they are deemed necessary for meta reasons. So, in terms of a curve - you should play more 3-cc spells than 4-cc spells, but I don't know how much farther you need to go with that. And you are right, though, that the cards need to support one another, but that doesn't necessarily make this a control deck - because it is true of ANY viable deck in this format (see Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity, Enchantress, TES, CRT Belcher, etc. etc. all these deck have synergy between the cards which makes them decent decks).

For the Tangle Wire discussion I think it would be more helpful if you could give an example of a match-up where Tangle Wire has proven itself useful and/or necessary. In my testing (which I'm happy to share), I've found it to be a very reactionary card for this deck (and format). Not having access to all the artifact acceleration available in the Vintage pool is a huge disadvantage for this particular card. I've found the symmetry to often times be worse than the symmetry from a Sphere of Resistance. I found it most useful in very specific situations, and that was usually when I was either even in permanents or slightly behind (when I was 'losing' basically). If I had an advantage, it does do it's job of stalling until I find a different lock piece, but that is almost by definition 'win-more' for this deck. This is very much in contrast of the times I have found it outstanding in Vintage Stax. Exactly what situations and match-ups are you seeing where it excels?

Accelerating into Magus is one of the reasons that I stopped trying to get Crystal Vein into the deck. I think it's quite honestly terrible most of the time. I hate sac'ing City of Traitors enough in this deck (especially without Crucible) that unless you are playing Goblins (or maybe Affinity) AND you have a Crucible out, using Vein to accelerate into Magus is almost always a wrong play - almost. He will tap down a mana source every turn after, so sac'ing a land to play him is a losing situation (most times - this won't apply with Crucible in play of course or a handful of land). Sac'ing for an Armageddon is ok, but I would again caution that this is also very situational. It's not like you are 'accelerating' into an Armageddon very often. It can be a very strong play in certain situations (cast with Mox, Flagstones, Vein and follow up by playing a land after resolution for no damage to yourself), but it will often be very reactionary in others (cast with Factory, Plains, Vein with no land drop for the turn to hit an opponent with 4-5 lands).

I agree with you whole-heartedly that this deck plays best when it is playing the proactive game. I feel, though, that many of your comments suggest a reactionary (control) play style which seems contradictory to this. And that is really the point I want to make when I say that Prison or Board Control is different from traditional control. In Flores terms, I think it leads to a lot of role misidentification in the Stax match-ups which can be very good for the Stax player who identifies themselves correctly. Every card in the deck should be viewed as a must-answer by nearly ever deck you face.

In terms of building to the meta, then, I believe you start with the Stax shell... 4 Smokestack, 4 Crucible. Add in cards that hit aggro... 4 Ghostly Prison, 3-4 Magus of the Tabernacle, X Engineered Explosives. And top it off with some cards that hurt combo/control... 4 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice of the Void. Fill in from there with cards that provide utility/synergy with the rest of the deck... Armageddon. I think it does leave some room for tailoring the list to your own play style or the meta you expect for a specific tournament, which is difficult to discuss outside of specific match-ups.

As for Bottled Cloister, I've mentioned it in an earlier post, the situations where you want to play it - (a) Heavy discard. Cloister costs 4 mana, so while it is playable turn 2, it won't consistently come down until turn 3-4 when you've either already been hit by discard or you have played another form of protection. It will build your hand back up, but you are better off working to lock your opponent out of the game. I like Spiritual Focus for this since it is playable turn 1 and can consistently hit on turn 2, it replaces the discarded card (both in the case of a Hymn), and the life gain kills most heavy discard deck's weak clock. (b) Control. Do you really need more help in those match-ups? They will probably be boarding in bounce and Disenchant-type stuff post-board, so is it really in your best interest to let them remove your hand from the game for 1W (+1 with Trinisphere) or probably more commonly 2G instead of forcing them to counter your threats? It really seems that by the time you are casting Cloister versus control, you will have either fought through a million counters for all the lock pieces (and in my opinion, Stax really does top-deck better than most decks in Legacy) or you already have a lock out and they are waiting for you to drop a win-condition. I just don't see it as being as strong as other options versus control.

As I said, I apologize for coming across as challenging (and long winded), but I feel that this is a very strong deck in the current meta and will get better only through constructive discussion and testing (which I have done quite a bit of). I hope others find this helpful, too.

Fred Bear...

Silverdragon

06-08-2007, 11:32 AM

@Machinus Thanks for the explanations. Although I don't agree with most of your points I can clearly understand your reasoning.
Fred Bear already said almost everything I wanted to say so I'll just add that I agree with most of his points. The only thing I disagree with is the "Stax shell" because aside from Smokestack and Crucible I think Chalice and Trinisphere belong there as well not only as cards that hurt combo/control but as general spellhosers.
Now there's one more thing I want to mention: I rarely had problems hitting 2WW for Exalted Angel. With 4 Flagstones, 4 Mox Diamonds and 7-8 Plains most of the time you hit 4 generic mana 2 of them will be white and if not you can always morph him for 3 and hope to topdeck your second white source (I generally avoid keeping hands without white mana at all).

edit: Forgot to mention that I agree with the manacurve issue but I disagree with forcing it too much. What I mean is that if for example a 4cc spell is significantly more powerful than the 3cc spell you are currently running because of manacurve issues then you should at least consider running the 4cc spell and adjusting for it in mulligan decisions etc.

Bane of the Living

06-08-2007, 08:49 PM

There are alot of good points made in the past few pages but theres a lack of opinion concerning the cut of the angel. If the card was good enough to run maindeck what has changed in the past months to forsake it all together? Surely it remains a strong option against aggro in the sb?

A version my team has been testing pushes the aggro route a bit more. Exalted, Blinding Angel, and Magus are both in the maindeck as four of's.

Magus seems like he's worthy of four spots now. Exalted wins games on its own against aggro, and Blinding Angel is a complete lockdown all on its own sometimes. This amount of aggro component meant we could keep Mishras Factory out of the deck and stay on track with Wasteland.

After sb'ing we bring in additional guns in 2 Crovax and 3 Voidstone Gargoyle. Crovax is amazing against aggro decks and Voidstone is a clock and lock against combo. The heavy creature base helps take games 2 and 3 without the agonizing lengths of game one. Its very difficult for this deck to win at all if it loses the first game. The man plan helps adress this.

Simply having huge creatures to cast early is too much for most decks to handle. The deck takes on a 5/3 ish type of shell that uses Smokestack/CotV/Crucible as cogs while your huge bodies go to war.

I do like the addition of EE in Machinus's build since it helps against Empty the Warrens as well. Being able to cast it with Chalice out is gravy.

Machinus could you further explain your choices to exclude Wasteland and Exalted?

Machinus

06-09-2007, 11:24 AM

Actually, with regards to Wasteland, I stopped liking it in the deck some time ago. If I didn't use factories I would just use stronger white sources, but Factory provides strong blocking and offense and recurs with Crucible at minimal cost to deck slots. In a deck with Smokestack and Armageddon I would rather resolve my bombs than prevent my opponent from playing some of theirs, since mine are much better. Wasteland is best in 5/3, and worse in Stax.

I still think Angel is a very good card, but Magus simply does more for less. 3W means it comes down a lot sooner, and the ability works on the upkeep immediately following it. That works really well with the other cards in the deck, like Armageddon and Tangle Wire/Ghosty Prison, and there are already eight win conditions in the deck, so the remaining slots are better used for more disruption.

The current decklist is the most versatile of any Angel Stax list, because the card choices are getting to the point where not only do they all have synergy with each other, but each piece is beginning to perform multiple roles. Magus acts as a tax effect, huge blocker, and win condition, and is cheaper than the previous creature, and I think it's what it will need to succeed.

Wasteland

06-12-2007, 06:18 PM

Have Suppression Fields really proved as so bad ? They shut down Fetchlands, Vials, Cycling, Deeds / Disks, while only your Wastelands / Factories are affected...
At the moment, i run the following List:

//Mana
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
8x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Wasteland
2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale ( can't be countered and be discarded in the Mox - i would never run less then theese 2 )
4x Mox Diamond

//Creatures
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Exalted Angel

//Other
4x Smokestack
3x Cruicible of Worlds
3x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Suppression Field
4x Armageddon

Sideboard
3x Jotun Grunts
3x Disenchant
3x Abeyance
3x Rule of Law
3x Sphere of Law

Since Hulk Flash is dead, the Sideboard is created to beat Solidarity and Life from the Loam-Builds ( quite often played in Bavaria )...

Noman Peopled

03-16-2008, 09:55 PM

I apologize if I mention anything that has been said already, but my head's dizzy after reading through all the stuff.

During my last tournament with Stax, I noticed I'd sometimes have problems with very specific cards I wasn't prepared to deal with. Most notably, a Goblin deck playing Shenanigans/Prospector.
I actually had three sideboard slots for this type of situations: Faith's Fetters. They turned out to be very good in different situations, but I still think O-Ring would work better because it will be dead less frequently (whether main or side), which is very important because Stax sucks in a topdeck war if its lock pieces somehow don't work. Also, ringing a creature a turn earlier may well make good on the missing lifegain.
(Both Fetters and O-Ring have subtle but very solid synergy with Smokestack, btw.)

I was also randomly scanning magiccards.info for potentially useful cards, a search that turned up Darksteel Pendant and Citadel. While Pendant provides only card selection, it does so at a reasonable price. Another card I was tinkering around with was Well of Knowledge. As expected, it was at its best when I was winning, but it sucked whenever an opponent could keep mana on the table.
Gods' Eye is probably too cute to be any good but I'll mention it anway. Feel free to not comment on it ;)

As for Darksteel Citadel, I would try it out immediately if I had the dough for multiple Ravages. Obviously, the whole deck would have to be reworked because a deck can only take so many colorless sources, but a 2/3 (or 2/4) Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond split might be feasible. That would make it possible to follow up Armageddon/Ravages with something relevant far more often (again, this would need to be taken into consideration). The added speed and LD consistency would also help against combo and control.
My biggest worriy for such a build is that it won't keep three mana on the table after a Geddon consistently enough - erring on the side of 2CC spells is inadvisable due to Trinisphere if nothing else. Because of this (and my lack of enthusiasm for buying Ravages) I'm actually contemplating trying out Global Ruin (//edit: now that I've dug up one and read it, never mind), but that'll probably end in tears. Still, I'd rather buy a playset of crap rares that turn out to be just that and still have enough money left over to buy furniture, a better RAM, or, say, food.

//edit: thx, Jaiminho. This forum is huge. Now on to reading the other thread :(