[Article] The Pro Tour Sucks (and general ranting about the state of the game)

[Richard Cheese]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I couldn't find a thread devoted to this article by Christopher Morris-Lent (CML):

http://legendstech.tumblr.com/post/117807127391/the-magic-the-gathering-pro-tour-sucks

Not that I've ever been on the Pro Tour, or really anywhere even close, but I've read it a couple times now and there were still a lot of sections that hit home. This one in particular:



There are a bunch of reasons Magic doesn’t have real pros, even though real pros would be good for Wizards and good for their player-base. I can cite the atrocious coverage, the general unsuitability for spectators, the specter of lawsuits, and so on, but the baroque rules are also at fault. It is as easy to cheat at Magic as it is impossible at League of Legends. The rules, like tax laws, are too complicated to be fully enforceable. I’m no victim of it, but I’m fully convinced the Pro Tour is full of cheating.

The easy fix would be to play the Pro Tour over Magic Online, but that would require Magic Online to be a real program, and would be a bad advertisement for paper cards besides. The physical reality of Magic cards creates high transaction costs, which limits profitable speculation to psychos and established businesses. Cardboard is a pain to keep track of and assemble into decks and bring to tournaments in Vancouver or Portland, much less ones halfway across the world. And paper cards can be manipulated to advantage at high-level events, making comprehensive enforcement impossible and coverage difficult.

Compared to eSports, the Pro Tour plays to a tiny audience, so why spend more money on the event? Wizards employees say privately that the PT is just the advertising budget, and marvel at the tiny wages the pros will fight over. But what a sad advertisement pro Magic players are for Magic. An acquaintance once said, “Magic pros are pro at nothing but Magic,” which means “Magic pros are pro at nothing.” Like the content they produce, Magic pros are devoid of personality, the ability to laugh at themselves, or socialize with anyone who has nothing to offer in terms of status or money or sycophancy, and it is the very notion of “professionalism” that ensures there are and never will be any Magic pros. Even as eSports have grown exponentially all around us and revenue from Magic has in fact grown in the same way, the Pro Tour is still nothing to the world. What could be further from a football stadium full of screaming League fans than the small dark room where they held Pro Tour Brussels, with Marshall Sutcliffe chiding Chapin like a middle-school teacher’s pet prefect?


The concept of Pros and the issue with cheating aside, I think he's mostly right. Big Magic events just tend to suck. The space, food, conditions, location, coverage...all pretty much shite at every event. What's worse, the payouts are objectively terrible considering the time, effort, and money it takes to make it to the top tables at one of these events. It never bothered me much with GPs or StarCity Opens in the past because they've just been an excuse to travel somewhere that wouldn't otherwise be on my radar (and possibly see some old friends in the process). As the events get bigger and the venues get worse though, I'm starting to feel like I should just stop needing an excuse to go somewhere for a weekend and save myself the hassle of carying five grand worth of cardboard across the country. To be fair, they've always kinda sucked for the same reasons. It just made a lot more sense when the best cards in most formats went for $20 and 100 people was a huge event. At least then there was a sense of camaraderie that came with doing something a little under the radar. It at least didn't feel out of place in Ballroom C at the Airport Holiday Inn.

Probably the bigger issue is that the game has just been feeling less attractive as a whole lately. The game is still fun at a basic level, but the act of playing it is getting misrable. Legacy has become so cutthroat that it feels like there's barely any space left for brewing or just screwing around. Modern looks interesting but the price fluctuations are as bad or worse than Standard, and I just don't care enough about the format to pay what people are asking for the cards. MTGO I found surprisingly ok, and Tempest Remastered was a pretty fun format, but overall it's a lonely and boring experience. Also, I just have a fundamental issue with paying money to essentially license the use of a virtual resource which I do not actually own or have any real control over. I get enough of that shit at work. So these days I'm basically down to limited events and dicking around with kitchen table formats, and wondering why I still bother with constructed at all.

Well now I'm way off the content of the original article. I guess what really got to me was an overall feeling of bleakness, or just indifference about the game as a whole. I don't know if anyone else around here is feeling it, but based on my local Legacy scene, and threads on here like B&R "discussion" and favorite era of Legacy, I get the feeling I'm not alone.

[Barook]

To me, the PT is just another tournament with slightly less shitty payouts than GPs and horrible formats, thus not exactly inspiring.

Coverage is just terrible. But given that Wizards sucks at everything except still making new cards, that's not suprising.

I'm just sad that they cut the Invitational. That was way more interesting than the PT circlejerk: Some dude won a bunch of money by playing limited and Standard? Who gives a fuck.

[danyul]

CML is often outrageous, mostly insane, and generally the closest thing to a living Hunter S Thompson that Seattle can call her own. He's also really smart, but in a way akin to a Batman villain. This article gained a ton of traction for being super honest in a way that only CML can be.

Magic is a great game. But it's a terrible hobby. Perhaps the worst ever. I've been trying to quit playing for years. The players are mostly gross. The events are a drain on my wallet, my body, and my soul. The blowouts are life-tilting. The victories are pretty cool sometimes but occur too rarely to be worth the trouble. The cards themselves are irrationally expensive. The entire hobby is almost impossible to explain to muggle friends and has a choking rather than freeing effect on (at least my) social life. The format is stale. The venues, at least in Seattle, are actually great but filled with the kind of people I usually only tolerate because I intend to turn their entry fees into a nice victory dinner. There really isn't any reason to stick with it. Card games are a relic of a bygone era.

And yet here we are.

The comparison to e-sports is especially apt. They were designed for the internet age. Magic can't really compete without a complete redesign. Hearthstone is basically what Magic would/could/should be if it was updated for the modern age. But that will never happen, clearly. If MODO is the solution, then Spaghetti Monster help us all.

I don't even know what my point is. I'm not smart enough to draft a manifesto or whatever, but I've sold and rebought into this game a few times already and I'm old enough to feel like I should be spending my time in more constructive ways.

I want to quit because the game isn't even fun anymore. I just show up like a zombie and throw down cards like a zombie and hope to win because...why exactly? And then, when I lose to some 22 year old who just got a job at Amazon and makes 80k right out of college and bought an entire FOW/Brainstorm/Ponder deck with a single paycheck, I begin to wonder why I bothered to show up in the first place. I might just be a grumpy + entitled old asshat though.

But then sometimes I'll be sitting around, bored, and think to myself "Man, it would be kinda fun to cardfight somebody right about now. When is the next weekly?" And then I'm hooked again.

This game sucks. But I can't stop playing.

[.dk]

This game sucks. But I can't stop playing.

Yeah... Couldn't agree more.

[iamajellydonut]

Dan is basically my boo.

[Richard Cheese]

I want to quit because the game isn't even fun anymore. I just show up like a zombie and throw down cards like a zombie and hope to win because...why exactly? And then, when I lose to some 22 year old who just got a job at Amazon and makes 80k right out of college and bought an entire FOW/Brainstorm/Ponder deck with a single paycheck, I begin to wonder why I bothered to show up in the first place. I might just be a grumpy + entitled old asshat though.

But then sometimes I'll be sitting around, bored, and think to myself "Man, it would be kinda fun to cardfight somebody right about now. When is the next weekly?" And then I'm hooked again.

This game sucks. But I can't stop playing.


This is pretty much spot on. Perhaps there's some kind of mid-magic-life crisis that those of us too young to own power but old enough to remember "simpler times" are going through.

[TsumiBand]

Even at my significantly diminished level of play I have begun to think much of this as well.

I had this whole thing written out but I realized that danyul basically said what I would have, with less words. Right down to the Hearthstone comparison -- you say what you like about its major strategic differences or whatever, but its relative simplicity in rules or lack thereof (no phases, no responses (mostly), just draw a card, play whenever, attack whenever with whatever as often as you care to, end the turn) give the app a very, very cool UX that Magic simply cannot have.

I'm not even this close to the Pro Tour, though I learned the game from the Spikes that have (and do) try. Even at a distance though, the whole stench of the economy of Magic is just fucking sickening a lot of the time. I honestly have no idea what the fuck I think I'm doing dropping any money on cards when I have all these neglected hobbies in my life right now -- I'm a fucking musician, I've been coding on and off since I was 8 years old, and I don't have a shit of a lot of downtime because I have daughters 14 years apart in age, so when I sit down to relax and regain some sense of self I'm really not even thinking about this game. And yet I'm playing in the office's Origins event next Saturday, and I even played EDH last Sunday and yeah I won by being a huge dickweasal but like, the whole time driving to the LGS I was like "..... jesus Luke, the fuck are you doing this to yourself for" and my stomach hurt like I was going to the dentist or like on my way to a vasectomy or something. I thought this shit was supposed to be fun?

It's enlightening and a bit depressing all at once to read that article and see that the cream doesn't really rise to the top any faster than the scat. I honestly have no idea what I skulk about competitive boards for anymore, except that I don't want to be accused of playing with shitty cards or not knowing what the good plays might actually be, or maybe I just want to see what Bertoncini is trying to get away with. Like it matters, fneh - what is there to aspire to, anyway. What pro-level. What prize. What is it, exactly.

I should sell my Force of Wills, no I shouldn't, but yeah.

[Anarky87]

I've felt the same every now and then. Usually when it happens though, I just take a long hiatus and do something else (whatever that may be; online gaming, tackling yard landscaping. etc.) But, it inevitably happens that I find my way back into playing. Sometimes I do feel kind of awkward slamming cards around with more or less high school kids. In recent years, I've just tried to pick decks that are just completely demoralizing to play against. Whether it's casual/EDH/Modern, I just build a deck that's going to give people the worst time and I find excitement in that for some reason.

I've recently come back to Legacy after a long stint away, so things are still pretty exciting for me. Strangely, I do treat it as a simple hobby that I do every now and then, and I try not to let myself get cutthroat about it. I'm sure I'll quit for good at some point, but for now, it's still a pretty enjoyable experience for me.

[from Cairo]

I still like playing Legacy. I'm glad this is my main hobby. I've met most of my closest friends playing Magic. I guess I'm the minority in this thread.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

You aren't the only one who is still happy playing. It's just hard for people to be positive about something when they aren't in a good place with it. I think that the best solution for this is usually a break, just gotta avoid selling everything.

I'm someone who avoids playing in large tournaments and at nasty stores like the plague and it really does help me enjoy the game more. I find that the right environment is what makes me want to play and I can't fault anyone who doesn't have that for being bitter at the grosser parts of magic.

[Lormador]

I'm reminded of an anecdote the first GP I ever attended, many years ago. In the convention center bathroom, in front of the wash basin, a young player probably in high school recognized one of the Japanese pros who had come a long way to play in the event. Awkward and bubbling with excitement, the bold young lad approached the pro and remarked on what a great game Magic was. The pro responded, shocked by this perspective, that he "hated this fucking game" and walked away.

Who would you rather be in that scenario?

It was then that I learned that it would be a terrible idea to try and turn pro at Magic. The natural tendency of one's work to become work is exacerbated by the apparently quite dismal nature of the Pro Tour. I am surprised that anyone wants to do it when there are games with far less cheating and vastly greater payouts. The most reasonable motivation seems to be getting a free plane ticket to somewhere worth seeing and having a fun trip along the way.

On the other hand, that young starry-eyed kid in the bathroom has a lot to recommend him. He was probably at this event with numerous friends, plays regularly at FNMs, and will at some point have a regular job that pays a corresponding salary. The game will remain a fun hobby for him until he feels like spending his time doing something else, and the only real danger is that he will sell or give away all his cards before they spike in value. The game itself will remain as well, saved by virtue of its great redeeming qualities, even in the face of all the poor coverage, pro player abuse, and Crackgates the world can throw at it. The game itself is truly excellent. The Hearthstone comparison is very apt. There are so many things you just can't do there. It's like comparing 3.5 edition Dungeons and Dragons to Final Fantasy II on Super Nintendo.

[lordofthepit]

I agree with a lot of what CML and Dan said, but this game is amazing. I don't think I'll ever truly quit and I don't want to, even if I have to take time off the game for personal reasons.

That being said, the lifestyle of a pro magic player or even that of a PTQ grinder or wannabe pro is absolutely miserable. Despite all the occasional flaws in card design and the extensive problems with tournament Magic, it's a testament to how fun and addicting the game is that so many players (although not me personally) put up with all these hardships to try to play the game at competitive levels.

[Stevestamopz]

Well now I'm way off the content of the original article. I guess what really got to me was an overall feeling of bleakness, or just indifference about the game as a whole. I don't know if anyone else around here is feeling it, but based on my local Legacy scene, and threads on here like B&R "discussion" and favorite era of Legacy, I get the feeling I'm not alone.

You're not the only one, and it seems like more and more people are feeling this way, especially in regards to the state of Legacy. What you said about there being an "overall feeling of bleakness and indifference about the game as a whole," really encapsulates how I feel about Magic/Legacy now and it's a sentiment shared by my close friends.

As for CML's article, it was fantastic. There was an Australian semi pro dude, who without mentioning names spent close to 2 years living a life of "work, magic, sleep 3 hours a night repeat ad nauseam" to try and make it onto the pro tour. Eventually after falling short of the mark a zillion times he resorted to cheating and was DQ'd and banned from magic. So you read CML's post think to myself, how can you ever justify living like that for something as ridiculous as the Pro Tour? Even that VICE doco on Magic and the pro-tour made "professional" magic look groce as fuck, even though that probably wasn't the intent of the documentary at all. The Forino brothers and their attitude to the game were the only redeeming features of that doco. Unfortunately for every Forino there are approximately 78 million salty + rude spikes manage to kill what fun is left. And yet here I am, on the Source, and counting down the hours until the legacy event starts tonight.

/rant

[thecrav]

I'm excited to actually read the article later but to address people talking about disliking playing or going to events, I don't agree but I definitely see where you're coming from. These days, my main reason to go to an event is to hang out with the people I like who are going to those events.

[Amon Amarth]

Pretty much everyone else said what I want to say. I think the feeling of indifference is exacerbated by Legacy though. Eternal formats can feel stale especially for those who have been for a decade or longer. They really need to just shake it up but the DCI is too scared of alienating players but said players are already unhappy. Well....maybe it's because Wizards doesn't care enough to properly manage the format or maybe they're just incompetent. IDK. Sigh. :(

[jmonk]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I couldn't find a thread devoted to this article by Christopher Morris-Lent (CML):

http://legendstech.tumblr.com/post/117807127391/the-magic-the-gathering-pro-tour-sucks

Not that I've ever been on the Pro Tour, or really anywhere even close, but I've read it a couple times now and there were still a lot of sections that hit home. This one in particular:



The concept of Pros and the issue with cheating aside, I think he's mostly right. Big Magic events just tend to suck. The space, food, conditions, location, coverage...all pretty much shite at every event. What's worse, the payouts are objectively terrible considering the time, effort, and money it takes to make it to the top tables at one of these events. It never bothered me much with GPs or StarCity Opens in the past because they've just been an excuse to travel somewhere that wouldn't otherwise be on my radar (and possibly see some old friends in the process). As the events get bigger and the venues get worse though, I'm starting to feel like I should just stop needing an excuse to go somewhere for a weekend and save myself the hassle of carying five grand worth of cardboard across the country. To be fair, they've always kinda sucked for the same reasons. It just made a lot more sense when the best cards in most formats went for $20 and 100 people was a huge event. At least then there was a sense of camaraderie that came with doing something a little under the radar. It at least didn't feel out of place in Ballroom C at the Airport Holiday Inn.

Probably the bigger issue is that the game has just been feeling less attractive as a whole lately. The game is still fun at a basic level, but the act of playing it is getting misrable. Legacy has become so cutthroat that it feels like there's barely any space left for brewing or just screwing around. Modern looks interesting but the price fluctuations are as bad or worse than Standard, and I just don't care enough about the format to pay what people are asking for the cards. MTGO I found surprisingly ok, and Tempest Remastered was a pretty fun format, but overall it's a lonely and boring experience. Also, I just have a fundamental issue with paying money to essentially license the use of a virtual resource which I do not actually own or have any real control over. I get enough of that shit at work. So these days I'm basically down to limited events and dicking around with kitchen table formats, and wondering why I still bother with constructed at all.

Well now I'm way off the content of the original article. I guess what really got to me was an overall feeling of bleakness, or just indifference about the game as a whole. I don't know if anyone else around here is feeling it, but based on my local Legacy scene, and threads on here like B&R "discussion" and favorite era of Legacy, I get the feeling I'm not alone.

I completely agree with you, at this point I have been playing legacy for 7 years and today I have very little drive to play the format. I miss the days that phyrexian dreadnought decks were competitive. It just seems like the card design and the rationale behind the design is stale. it seems like the standard formats usually break down into two categories. we have the midrange decks fight against the aggro decks. since new sets are the only way that modern gets new cards even that format seems to be in a state of false change.

[Begle1]

I'm a happy player... I think Legacy moves just fine. A few decks come and go every year, there's an occasional spike of activity when something like delve comes out, I wouldn't call it "stagnant".


I see Magic like golf. Most players love it, but don't aspire to be professional. Many amateur players on a good day can beat a pro on a bad day, especially in familiar conditions. The game exists for those who love playing it, and it's the amateurs who fund the pros, and the pros... Well, whatever world they live on, it's not what people love about Magic.

I only need to teach a new player how to play the game and build a deck with them by going through a sticky box of random 10 cent cards to fall in love with this game again. As long as WotC keeps making cool cards, I'm happy as could be never playing in a tournament over 8 rounds. Of course it's not fun at that point... And it doesn't need to be, and that's not what the game is.

[phonics]

MTG is a brilliant game that is in the hands of a company that has shown time and time again that they are grossly incompetent when it comes to managing the game. Legacy has become stale because a combination of the internet/ netdecking and power creep has made most strategies just unplayable in a format that was once touted as having the most wide open field when it came to deck diversity. It wasn't uncommon to see top 8s with 8 different archetypes, now there is maybe one semi different archetype in a sea of delver, miracles and maybe a show and tell deck/ storm deck, fringe decks? forget about it. The value of playable cards has increased exponentially, I would even say that the game has become prohibitively expensive for people like new players, especially younger players that don't have an income, I hope they like playing burn and RDW. Most won't even bother with Legacy because the investment is too steep, only now Modern (the format created as a response to the price and scarcity of reserve list cards) is basically the same thing with less outrageous land prices and WOTC banning anything that becomes too good or anything they don't like, especially if it isn't midrange. It's okay though, since WOTC is on the case and have made not one but two sets to reprint format staples to deal with prices! Of course their MSRP essentially negates any significant price correction, combined with how cards across the board are becoming more expensive, and how for the second time they decided people care more about how the set drafts than alleviating prices, their actions are slightly ineffective. I can't think of any real interesting mechanics that have come out recently (like since Zendikar or maybe cascade in Alara) that has been good enough to spawn a competitive archetype, though many are either just underutilized or just plain uninteresting. It is like they are afraid to explore mechanics because they don't want to make broken cards, but then they go and do that anyways, and most of the time they just happen to be blue. Of course this comes from the people who give us hexproof, True Name Nemesis and other similarly terribly designed cards so I am not even surprised by what they do anymore.

Then we get to the pro tour/ tournament scene. Coming from a game that was actually broadcasted on espn2 at one point, WOTC's best effort at coverage was text based on their horrible website until Rashad Miller started to stream magic because he thought it was fun. What we get now is honestly more than I could ever hope for from WOTC, I'll take what I can get. I remember I was watching Michael Jacobs talk about the pro tour one time and he said that it actually stood for the promotional tour, not a professional tour, which from what has been said appears to be true. Nobody actually makes a living playing magic, a few maybe by writing about it, but like the article said there is no such thing as a professional magic player, though many are professionals that happen to play the game.

Anything related to Magic Online is just completely disappointing all around. On super league coverage the client always crashes and has technical issues, someone makes a joke about how bad the client is, everyone chuckles and a catchy baseline transitions into commercials. They have to do some voodoo magic to spectate with hands, and an abysmal UX that was updated to look only 10 years old rather than 20. Despite how terrible it is, people still use it a lot, and WOTC pays peanuts to the devs who could earn way more at any tech company across the street, which insures that Magic Online will remain terrible. In comparison Hearthstone looks absolutely beautiful and runs like melted butter and makes Magic Online look like some students summer project.

I want to love the game so much but WOTC are trying their hardest to make the game as unappealing as possible to me. It's not worth it to be bothered by it anymore, I'll just wait until they release something cool (origins seems pretty cool at least), and then maybe I will deal with picking up the staples that came out in the meantime that have had their price increase by a factor of a thousand and play some constructed, maybe.

[CML]

Hello everyone. I'm glad you liked the article. It is all true. Possibly a few facts are wrong but I am not interested in any pretense of being anything other than myself.

If you want to know anything, just post here.

If you want to break an NDA, please e-mail itscml@gmail.com and I will do my best to keep it not a secret.

CML

[lordofthepit]

Hello everyone. I'm glad you liked the article. It is all true. Possibly a few facts are wrong but I am not interested in any pretense of being anything other than myself.

If you want to know anything, just post here.

If you want to break an NDA, please e-mail itscml@gmail.com and I will do my best to keep it not a secret.

CML

In retrospect, how accurate were the statements of one SBAM?

[Crimhead]

There are two things poker has that MTG doesn't:

Spectators can see the players' cards.
The deck is handled by a professional dealer.

Obviously it helps that the rules of poker are easily understood, and poker has appeal to sports fans (where MTG is more fringe). Nonetheless I think the above points safe valid.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the World Series of poker was televised without spectators seeing the hands. Unless there was a showdown it was asnyones guess what the players had (even in a showdown, one player will often muck). This was very dull to watch, and only viewers who were very much into poker could get anything out of it.

Also, I couldn't imagine top level poker tournaments where the players actually took turns dealing the cards! Each table has a professional dealer to ensure the integrity of the game.

Fixing these would probably help MTG as a spectator event, at least somewhat.

[Dice_Box]

On the tour though they do show the hands in text format down the side of the screen.

As someone who has never had dreams of going pro, I enjoy the game a lot. I wish some larger events happened more in my part of the world, but only in so far as I enjoy the game with more people around.

At a macro level, I enjoy Judging alot. I love kids coming up to me to ask me how things work, to feel like I am more useful as a helper for the start eyed then I am being some 30 year old still playing to something he should really have stopped spending money on years ago. I also like that I can walk into my card store and see a Trans gender woman playing cards across from a heavily tattooed man and no one cares. It's these moments I find the real joy in.

Add to that the nights I have 3 people ask can they borrow something, can I build them a deck or their friends need one and that helps make the game more enjoyable to me. I find the joy in this game is leached out of it if you take it as a solo experience. The game is best played with friends who, for all their differences, come together over this game and this format.

Maybe I am different, but for me the game is a sum of its parts affair. The people, the mental math, the stories, the moments that just should not be but sometimes you get the prefect card, the kids with stars in their eyes when they open some stupid dragon or the times at modern someone looks at my play mat and asks me what The Source is. To me that's what brings me back, no foolish dreams that I would make more money playing this game for a living or that I would even enjoy doing such a thing.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Magic is a great game. But it's just not spectator-friendly.

1) The rules are too complicated. There are seven plus one different card types (Tribal being the plus one is just super messy design and basically doesn't make any sense at all), all of which have different regulations. The are a billion different keywords, all of which you have to know as well. On top of that, every single card has rules text.
In fact, this game is so complicated that even the top constantly make ridiculous mistakes. If the players don't know what's going on, how are commentators and spectators supposed to?

2) Magic is not about making great plays, it's about not making mistakes. Even if I watch some esport, I can see mastery of the controls of the game. In Magic, there are no great moves. Outside of mindgames, the are only correct and bad plays. Blowouts don't come from mastery of the game, but from variance. That doesn't make for very exciting games, at least to me.

3) They are trying to fix this for on-camera features now, but not having fixed board layouts is confusing for viewers, especially if said viewers don't know the cards.

4) Spectators don't get sufficient information. This is not even factoring in cards in hand, but spectators should always have access to oracle texts for all the cards currently involved in the game. Apart from very simple board states, I don't think is even remotely possible. It's not enough to know how big a Tarmogoyf is. I need to know which card types are in each players graveyards. If Deathrite Shaman or Scavenging Ooze are involved, I need to know how many of each. If Snapcaster is involved, I need to know exactly which cards are in a player's graveyard. Oh, and have I mentioned that spectators don't get decklists, which are required to know what a player is aiming for? The amount of information that's needed to even understand a given game is simply not conveyable.

5) Because of this, spectators experience a completely different game than players. This reinforces 1), spectators have no clue what's happening on several levels.

[Aggro_zombies]

A couple years ago, on the cusp of cashing out of competitive Magic, a friend of mine said something along the lines of, "All competitive Magic players are just frustrated they couldn't live the dream of being competitive Poker players." Holy shit was he right. I started cashing out of Legacy shortly after that and now I basically don't go to any tournaments bigger than a prerelease anymore because of exactly the dynamic CML talks about. I just don't care anymore. I'll play Commander with friends because I like my friends and I like Commander, but I have other hobbies and other things to do with my time than hang out with Grinders.

[mishima_kazuya]

I like playing large tournaments and against strong opponents, so you can say I play competitive for the thrill of the competition.
I am sure that me being somewhat decent at the game prevents me from burning out, but I have other ways to keep this game fresh. I have a great group of friends I regularly Cube draft, so that I can enjoy both Casual and Competitive.
With a full time job, I am also spending less time than I did when I was younger grinding games. Despite playing less, I found myself still improving as a player, which may just be me getting wiser with age.

If you are going to have a negative attitude, then of course playing a PT might suck. Perhaps treating Hawaii as a vacation is why I didn't do well on Day 2 of PT: Honolulu last year, but I can say I was happy to be at the PT the whole time I was there.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I like playing large tournaments and against strong opponents, so you can say I play competitive for the thrill of the competition.
This is true for me as well. It's the reason I drive an hour in to Philly from work and an hour and a half back home every other Wednesday night.

I don't ever see myself getting tired of Magic: the Game, but often get frustrated with Magic: the Formats. Fortunately there are many different formats and my area has at least one event for the format I'm into at the moment at least twice a month (as long as I'm willing to drive... :rolleyes:).

[Kathal]

Disclaimer: This post might make no sense for you, heck in some parts it doesn't even make sense for me, but whatever.

All of this reminds me of my other big hobby (or at least it was): Warhammer Fantasy. Some of you might know it, for those who don't know it, it is a tabletop game, where you build and paint your own figures and than play against another player.

It was a really funny hobby, which I enjoyed more than 11 years (heck, I started playing that game when I was 8 and now I'm 20) and learned a ton of things in this time, especially in the tournament scene. First I was a tryhard to do well at those tournament, since I went there for winning it (a legit reason) but I lost something on the way there: my fun. After a couple of years, I noticed, how much I just miss those causal, weird and fun games I had before I started playing tournaments. This resulted in a shift of my mentality, I went to tournaments not to win, but to have a great time there, meet my friends I made, get totally wasted and just luck my way to a good finish. When this shift happened, I suddenly had fun again with this hobby, something I missed for several years (I mean, I played the game only because of the thought of doing well). So I had a great time after this "change". But because of this change, I noticed something unpleasant. Many people apparently forgot why they started playing this game, because it was a fun game, where you spend an afternoon smashing your figures with the figures of your friend, while drinking some beer. Most of those people, became tryhards (dunno, if this is even an English world), they went to those tournaments to do well and not to have a great time there. When you change (so when you go back to the roots) only than you will notice this.

Last year Spring, when I had to take a break due to school and later the army (in Austria you have to go to the Army for 6 months), I had absolute no time to play it. Hence, I didn't keep up with what was happening (new releases, new rules,...). But in the last few weeks I wanted to play Warhammer again, just to hear, that it was just discontinued. It shocked me, cause this was my childhood, with what I grew up.

But what has this to do with Magic? Many many times I go to a tournament, just to jam some games with a totally fun and weird deck, all I can see is hate and tryhards, which just want to win this fking tournament. I always ask myself then, why do they even play magic? Apparently, they have no fun with just playing the game, but they want to win at every cost. It almost feels like, most of my opponents have a stick up in their a**hole, simply because they do everything to win (I mean, last weekend, somebody called a judge, because the opponent forgot to shuffle a card in the deck (was sticked to the playmat and the sleeve had the same colour as the playmat)). I mean, what the heck?!

I started playing Magic back in Mirrodin (to be honest, I really started playing magic with Kamigawa) and played for fun back then. When I was in this "I must win" phase I played Extended, and ofc, I didn't had any fun, which is and should be the main reason why you are doing a hobby. Now I play Modern and try to have as much fun as possible in each tournament. Then some might say, why do you even play tournaments? This is easy, since there is no LGS, so I can't just jam some games there (it closed several years ago). I have to travel 300km to be able to play magic at all. And when I'm there I want to have fun, and not to play against tryhards. But in a 8 round tournament, I usually only enjoy to play against 2-3 opponents, where both of us have a fun time (as it should be).

Even worse it is at GPs. At GP Milan last year, I played 17 matches (didn't make it day 2), and only 3 of those opponents were pleasant to play against. There was no atmosphere which said: Just have a great time, it was more of a: try to win with whatever it takes. The same was at GP Vancouver, although there I just had a great time, since I didn't let pull myself in this atmosphere.

All those fun and cool Warhammer tournaments I had (when I got wasted on Saturday and I still made it to top 10 on Sunday somehow), where the fun was in the focus instead of winning, those were the most awesome tournaments I ever had and probably never have again (since Warhammer was discontinued). It is something I try to get at a Magic tournament, but it is just simply impossible, since everybody wants to win there, and not enjoy the event. Even if you travel with a group of friends to a rather big magic tournament, it doesn't help, the Magic tournament community is just so hostile to the world fun. Heck, I mean, when was the last time you brewed something together? Netdecking got so important in the last few years, it really makes me sad.

And now, I'm even more confused as before. And this whole post has probably absolutely now sense at all.

Greetings,
Kathal

[MGB]

2) Magic is not about making great plays, it's about not making mistakes. Even if I watch some esport, I can see mastery of the controls of the game. In Magic, there are no great moves. Outside of mindgames, the are only correct and bad plays. Blowouts don't come from mastery of the game, but from variance. That doesn't make for very exciting games, at least to me.


This, to me, is the the perfect point. This is probably the number one problem Competitive Magic, and its "Pros" have from the standpoint of spectator appeal: the fact that the highest level of Magic play primarily rewards the ability to reduce the amount of mistakes committed while making a series of discrete decisions all while playing in a physically and mentally exhausted state - i.e. the typical high level Magic tournament.

And the people that do best to fulifill these requirements - simple mistake minimization in a long, drawn-out period of time - are not interesting people, but typically bland people with a competitive drive. The fascinating, artful mastery of the top players in some sports or even other non-athletic games is basically absent from the Professionals in Magic, because the game itself does not reward that type of mastery, but instead rewards careful micro-management of small, discrete choices. The people who do well at this type of activity usually pursue careers as Accountants or Middle School Teachers if they aren't playing Magic competitively.

If you want to make Magic competitively interesting to spectators, you have to figure out how to more adequately reward brilliant and masterful plays more often than simple mistake minimization. This would develop a different class of top player that would probably be more appealing to viewers.

[alphastryk]

...
And the people that do best to fulifill these requirements - simple mistake minimization in a long, drawn-out period of time - are not interesting people, but typically bland people with a competitive drive. The fascinating, artful mastery of the top players in some sports or even other non-athletic games is basically absent from the Professionals in Magic, because the game itself does not reward that type of mastery, but instead rewards careful micro-management of small, discrete choices. The people who do well at this type of activity usually pursue careers as Accountants or Middle School Teachers if they aren't playing Magic competitively.

If you want to make Magic competitively interesting to spectators, you have to figure out how to more adequately reward brilliant and masterful plays more often than simple mistake minimization. This would develop a different class of top player that would probably be more appealing to viewers.

Wow. I've always semi-jokingly said that magic is won by making less mistakes than your opponent, so this really hit home. It definitely take a certain mindset to do well, and the people that do that well are generally not flashy people, which makes sense.

In terms of professions, I've found most of the better Legacy / Vintage players I know work in software development, which is a similar mindset.

[Begle1]

A thought I assume many would agree with: over half the fun and skill of Magic (and I bet what most of us enjoy the most) comes during the introspective process of deck construction, and that's a huge facet of the game that will never be able to be a spectator event...

Unless we're talking draft, which I think is perhaps a good direction to go, but is still boring to watch unless you can get the players to blabber like crazy about why they're making the decisions they're making.

What would your dream pro tour coverage look like? Mine would involve actually hearing the players talk about what they're doing and why, without that you're just looking at two nerds shuffle cards and fidget... Never going to be great TV without a lot more production.

[keys]

A thought I assume many would agree with: over half the fun and skill of Magic (and I bet what most of us enjoy the most) comes during the introspective process of deck construction, and that's a huge facet of the game that will never be able to be a spectator event...

Unless we're talking draft, which I think is perhaps a good direction to go, but is still boring to watch unless you can get the players to blabber like crazy about why they're making the decisions they're making.

What would your dream pro tour coverage look like? Mine would involve actually hearing the players talk about what they're doing and why, without that you're just looking at two nerds shuffle cards and fidget... Never going to be great TV without a lot more production.

Aren't the "Deck Tech" segments during coverage basically this?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think if you're looking to improve coverage, you should first establish what you want from it. The way I see it, the two main selling points of watching other people play are entertainment and education. Personally, I think education is not what you want from coverage, considering big events are essentially only there for marketing (see how Pro Tours are named after sets now). For event coverage, you pretty much strictly want entertainment.
If you have Finkel on camera, that's not appealing to new players, it's appealing to those who know who he is and how good he is. (Interesting aside, Finkel once was asked who he liked watching the most and he said he doesn't like watching other people play. 2012 Player's Championship interview, I think.)
If you have someone like Caleb Durward, Conley Woods or Travis Woo on camera, well, they do bring flashy, new decks, but that's still not appealing to players who are completely new to the game (I think).
A lot of being good at Magic comes from small nuances in deckbuilding/metagaming, which isn't apparent to inexperienced players.
As a competitive player, I enjoy watching mirror matches (for some decks at least), but for less competitive people and newcomers, those are the worst, because the skill that is shown is barely visible to them.

Thinking back on some coverage moments I clearly remember, there is Bonfire of the Damned vs. Kibler in the WMC, Estratti bluffing Martell at PT Dark Ascension and Nassif's Cruel Ultimatum. I haven't seen any of those live, but I still remember them. The one that stands out here is Estratti's bluff, being the only one that came down to a player doing something flashy rather than variance deciding the game. This is what you want to showcase more of, but Magic just doesn't lend itself to that.

[presquepartout]

A thought I assume many would agree with: over half the fun and skill of Magic (and I bet what most of us enjoy the most) comes during the introspective process of deck construction, and that's a huge facet of the game that will never be able to be a spectator event...

Unless we're talking draft, which I think is perhaps a good direction to go, but is still boring to watch unless you can get the players to blabber like crazy about why they're making the decisions they're making.

What would your dream pro tour coverage look like? Mine would involve actually hearing the players talk about what they're doing and why, without that you're just looking at two nerds shuffle cards and fidget... Never going to be great TV without a lot more production.

This is the appeal of watching a stream of someone playing MTGO -- you get to see what is in their hand and often get to hear most of their thought process. MTGO can't replicate the feeling of playing physical cards, but there's a lot of plusses to the future of professional Magic being digital. No cheating, more information for the viewers, and you can even mic up the players. Obviously right now all of this is outweighed by how terrible MTGO is, but I don't think Magic as a spectator event has a longterm future with physical cards.

[MGB]

This is the appeal of watching a stream of someone playing MTGO -- you get to see what is in their hand and often get to hear most of their thought process. MTGO can't replicate the feeling of playing physical cards, but there's a lot of plusses to the future of professional Magic being digital. No cheating, more information for the viewers, and you can even mic up the players. Obviously right now all of this is outweighed by how terrible MTGO is, but I don't think Magic as a spectator event has a longterm future with physical cards.

The few times I load up youtube on my cellphone to kill time by watching Magic content, I almost invariably find myself more drawn to the Channelfireball/Starcitygames videos that feature "pro" players narrating matches on MTGO than any live play. The ability for the narrator of a streamed MTGO match to describe his decisions and his general thought process make it so much more fascinating to watch.

There are two ways they could add this to live play:
- find some way to mic up the players themselves, and ask them to narrate decisions, which would introduce logistics problems that would be hard to overcome.
- invest more money into far more competent and diligent commentators who know every card in every player's hand and have high level Magic expertise to be able to describe, adequately, what each player is considering and planning and the effects of each decision made in-game.

[Richard Cheese]

As far as coverage goes, I think there are a few simple steps they could take to make it a bit more interesting and (more importantly) accessible.

First: make the top 8 special. Stream random matches from the whole event if you want, but at least for the Pro Tour make the top 8 stand out. Have it on a different day, or at least at a specific starting time, with an audience, in a nice setting. Have a table judge and a deck handler for every match. The cheating situation is ridiculous and obviously just recording matches isn't stopping it.

Second: pocket cams. People love watching poker because it makes them feel omniscient. You know when someone's bluffing, or when they're one card away from an amazing hand and it shows up in the river. It would also cut down on some of the mindless commentary chatter. "I thought I saw a Bolt in his hand, does he have a Bolt? Bolt would be real good right now, not sure why he's not playing it if that is in fact what I saw" Shut the fuck up and just get it on camera, which leads me to my next point...

Third: make the commentary less conjecture, more exposition. Nobody cares what random unplayed Kamigawa rare would be real great right now, or what he might get with that GSZ. Just explain what's going on in a clear and concise way. When there's a rules incident, read the relevant section...sports broadcasting does this shit all the time. Diehard hockey fans know what offsides is or what constitutes a goal, but announcers will describe it all the time on replays anyway. Magic moves way slower, so there's plenty of time to do something as simple as "...and Siege Rhino's Trample will let him do 2 damage to the Stoneforge and the rest to his opponent" rather than "____ attacks, ______ goes to 14, this reminds me a lot of the time I was at the 98 world championships..."

Fourth: on-screen graphics. Primarily I'd like to see percentages, again like with poker. If the hands and decklists are known, we could actually get to situations where we know exactly what card someone needs off the top to win/not lose. Put the chance up that they'll draw it to make those great topdecks even more significant. Doesn't have to be just percentages though. DotP has some great visual representations of what's going on in the game, and I don't see why you couldn't use some of them in an overlay to make the game state less obtuse. Doesn't have to be all cutesy graphics and explosions, but just lines to indicate targeting and attacks/blocks, maybe a visual representation of the stack.

Of course, even if they did all that, they still need to deal with the stagnating formats and card price issues. Those are probably the more pressing issues at the moment, since it sounds like a lot of people, at least in Legacy, are in the same boat as me. The game is still great at it's core, but every format is plagued by a different problem that's just killing the overall enjoyment of the hobby. I've made a lot of good friends and even professional contacts through Legacy, and I'd like to continue doing that. It just sucks watching the whole game get slowly crushed under its own weight.

[alphastryk]

A lot of valid points being made here. Having streamed live matches, here's some stuff worth talking about:

1) Hand cams are hard to do well, and essentially triple how mana camera are required - this really ups how powerful of a computer you need too. Its also hard to fit hand cams, overhead view, and card information on the screen when its relevant.

2) Having actually done commentary on live matches - its really freaking hard. If you're trying to do all of this, you basically need to add another person to handle life total and general game stuff, and yet another person doing hand updates, etc.

3) I feel like I have great format knowledge and can pick up almost every card people have, but trying to talk through two people's though processes quickly while keeping up with the game-state is very difficult. I think trying to do intelligent commentary (at least for Legacy) is almost as hard as playing the matches, and even more exhausting.

Edit:
4) Additional on-screen info, updated in real-time would require yet another person. We're already at 3 people busy the whole time to have two commentators (who also manage graphics), and a spotter / producer finding out decks, picking camera matches, secondary matches, lining up interviews etc.

All that said, I really find good commentary interesting, and I want to know what I can do better - if anybody wants to check it out, I'll be doing commentary again tonight at twitch.tv/tuskvision - feel free to stop by and give feedback, or message me on here.

[GenghisTom]

I can't help but chime in.

I've played off an on since Ice Age and honestly the idea of "Pro Magic Player" has always seemed like a joke to me.
I get exactly what I want out of this game - I have a beautiful double-sleeved powered cube with token and all that my close buddies and I break out every Friday, shake a couple cocktails, talk shit, draft, and have a blast. That's it.
I dabble in the local legacy scene now and then, mostly just to get store credit and buy more cards for the cube.

Honestly I despise the experience of playing against someone I don't know - the awkward handshake and shuffle time small talk. 1v1 magic is akin to dancing, or to take the analogy further, it's like sex. The first time with someone can be very awkward until you can find a rhythm, which for some never comes to be. Playing 1v1 magic with someone you know well and have each others beat down can be a blissful experience.

I hate showing up at an event and wondering "who's gonna be the next rando I have to battle?". I don't know, maybe it's just me. Or maybe it's something to do with Seattle...? Is it the rain!? lol

It's no surprise Wizards puts little effort into Magic events. They don't need pro players to exist to sell boosters, nor do they need people aspiring to become pros.

Want glamour and high payouts? Just play poker.

[MGB]

I can't help but chime in.

I've played off an on since Ice Age and honestly the idea of "Pro Magic Player" has always seemed like a joke to me.
I get exactly what I want out of this game - I have a beautiful double-sleeved powered cube with token and all that my close buddies and I break out every Friday, shake a couple cocktails, talk shit, draft, and have a blast. That's it.
I dabble in the local legacy scene now and then, mostly just to get store credit and buy more cards for the cube.

Honestly I despise the experience of playing against someone I don't know - the awkward handshake and shuffle time small talk. 1v1 magic is akin to dancing, or to take the analogy further, it's like sex. The first time with someone can be very awkward until you can find a rhythm, which for some never comes to be. Playing 1v1 magic with someone you know well and have each others beat down can be a blissful experience.

I hate showing up at an event and wondering "who's gonna be the next rando I have to battle?". I don't know, maybe it's just me. Or maybe it's something to do with Seattle...? Is it the rain!? lol


That's a fascinating analogy - Magic as Sex.

What would that make the average SCG tournament? All the cameras... 8+ rounds of random opponents...

A sleazy orgy porno movie? :eek:



It's no surprise Wizards puts little effort into Magic events. They don't need pro players to exist to sell boosters, nor do they need people aspiring to become pros.


This is actually a really interesting statement because it reflects some real truth at WOTC. A while back I was listening to Mark Rosewater's podcast in which he talked about all of the changes made since Future Sight. One of the big reasons for the whole "New World Order" plan was a result of the Future Sight block really turning off casual players. Rosewater said that for the first time in Magic's history, they saw increased tournament attendance but decreased sales of boosters. What was happening, which was never apparent to them before, was that tournament players embraced Future Sight but casual players hated it. Up until that point they just assumed that Tournament Attendance and Booster Sales had a strong natural correlation. And it showed to them, for the first time ever, that the bulk of their sales actually came from casual players. Up til that point I would assume that alot of effort went into marketing and promoting tournaments and professional play, because they simply thought that competitive players were driving the majority of their sales. After Future Sight, their conclusion was the opposite: to make the most money, they had to cater instead to the casual player first and foremost. So long story short... they definitely don't need the "pro" player, and their decreased tournament payout/support in general probably reflects that.



Want glamour and high payouts? Just play poker.

Except that poker cards are so boring! Magic cards have all of these pretty pictures on them. :tongue:

[Richard Cheese]

See I don't want much commentary, just a play-by-play. You don't need to tell me what the thought process is or why you think the play is going to be, because that's all just speculation. Do an interview after the match and get actual information. Yes, more information would require more people, probably an entire production team like any other televised sporting event. Not necessarily for every SCG Open or GP, but for the highest levels of play, it should be something polished. There's an air of legitimacy that that's just missing from the Pro Tour.

One thing I forgot in the previous post - the prize support has to get better. 250K for a pro tour win, for how many hours of work? Some DOTA (League maybe? I don't follow that closely) tournament just crowd-funded a 13 million dollar prize pool. GP payouts are even more pathetic, especially considering the time and money involved just in participating in the event. Hasbro made a net profit of $375 million in 09...throw us a bone here guys.

[Jonathan Alexander]

250k is actually the payout for the entire Pro Tour. 250k for a win would definitely be okay, 40k is not.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

See I don't want much commentary, just a play-by-play. You don't need to tell me what the thought process is or why you think the play is going to be, because that's all just speculation. Do an interview after the match and get actual information. Yes, more information would require more people, probably an entire production team like any other televised sporting event. Not necessarily for every SCG Open or GP, but for the highest levels of play, it should be something polished. There's an air of legitimacy that that's just missing from the Pro Tour.

One thing I forgot in the previous post - the prize support has to get better. 250K for a pro tour win, for how many hours of work? Some DOTA (League maybe? I don't follow that closely) tournament just crowd-funded a 13 million dollar prize pool. GP payouts are even more pathetic, especially considering the time and money involved just in participating in the event. Hasbro made a net profit of $375 million in 09...throw us a bone here guys.

Said DotA 2 tournament (The International) now has a prize-pool of over $15,000,000 and is going to be the largest E-Sports event in history. Also, even more frightening is that only 1/4 of the cash from in-game purchases goes to the prize pool. So, that means players have collectively purchased over $60,000,000 in virtual goods that are connected in some way to the tournament. I know I personally spent around $200 on it since DotA is basically taking the place of Magic for me, now.

[iamajellydonut]

Last I checked, there's a difference between mindless freemium computer games and a skill intensive $400-3000 physical card game. Though it can be fun to watch, Magic makes a terrible spectator sport and, because of that, doesn't seek to rake in the money from ridiculous tournaments. It's got no big sponsorships from Razor and things like overpriced graphics cards aren't flying off the shelves because of it. Best we've got for sponsors are maybe Ultra Pro, Rubbermaid, and Doritos.

Filthy casuals are what make this game profitable. Not tournaments.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I know it's been mentioned here before, but I couldn't find a thread devoted to this article by Christopher Morris-Lent (CML):

http://legendstech.tumblr.com/post/117807127391/the-magic-the-gathering-pro-tour-sucks

Wow, that was one heck of a brilliantly negative article! I liked it a lot and I read it at once!
Many thanks CML for writing this, I never had such nice time reading about MtG in years.
Also, I hope that you're not done for good with PTs, as I'd love to read many more such articles, but I do understand that it's not your wish to spend time doing this magical cards gatherings and all that stuff.

I also need tell that there are lots of really good posts in this thread, in order of appearance: Richard Cheese, danyul, TsumiBand, Lormador, Kathal, GenghisTom.

[Ellomdian]

CML is often outrageous, mostly insane, and generally the closest thing to a living Hunter S Thompson that Seattle can call her own. He's also really smart, but in a way akin to a Batman villain. This article gained a ton of traction for being super honest in a way that only CML can be.

Except CML is effectively a professional Troll, and Thompson was a brilliant satirist.

Or to put it another way, CML writes because he likes to be heard, Thompson wrote because it needed to be written.


This is pretty much spot on. Perhaps there's some kind of mid-magic-life crisis that those of us too young to own power but old enough to remember "simpler times" are going through.

Talk to some of the people who do own power and who are going through the same thing. I think a big part of it is that when your scope of experience and knowledge gets to a certain point, Standard becomes not only unattractive, but downright unfun.


Filthy casuals are what make this game profitable. Not tournaments.

I really wish more people understood this. We had 2500 people show up to play the first Mini-master in Vegas - how many of them do you think were the PTQ-grinding, late-night-testing semi-pros? GP's are designed to be open events that provide a social experience that is easily marketable. The Pro Tour is still a very cash-cheap marketing exercise, and for every person that complains/drops out at the top end, there is someone waiting to step up in their place. That's a big part of the new PPTQ system - you used to have the opportunity to be a winner MAYBE 4-5 times a season, now you get to be one damn near every weekend.

[iamajellydonut]

I wish I wasn't too busy to add to this. Specifically with regards to interest in other formats.

I'm going to have to keep this brief, but I want to honestly say that I don't believe the mentalities of aging players have changed. I do sincerely believe that the entertainment value of the game has shifted for the worst. Not only do I currently find Standard to be a bland and uninspired hunk of garbage, but I also believe Limited to be stale and weak. And this used to not be the case. Limited used to be my jam. Every week two or three flights. It was great. I used to think that my loss of interest in the Limited format was me being a jaded pseudo-elitist, but the truth is that I've had enough encounters with old sets in situations where nostalgia wasn't a factor, and I've realized that it is actually the sets that are bringing down my interest in the game as a whole.

I mean, as food for thought, when was the last time we saw combo? Splinter Twin? And before that something from Time Spiral? And when was the last time we saw an innovated deck as opposed to the most efficient creatures shoved into a pile of sixty and deployed to the battlefield? Innistrad? The game has changed, and I don't like it. I'm all for playing Standard. I would actually like to be able to play Standard. Same with Limited and even Modern. But not like this.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Limited used to be my jam.
Hmmph...
I just figured you'd prefer jelly. :tongue:

[iamajellydonut]

I'm not a fucking cannibal. How dare you?

[Ace/Homebrew]

How dare you?
I'd explain myself, but I'm too busy to add more. I wish I wasn't. Specifically with regards to fruit-based spread. :wink:

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I remember back in 93', kids were playing on the asphalt at recess with Alpha cards. One kid in particular, lost a Black Lotus in an ante, was so pissed off, stormed off and threw his cards in the trash.

Wish we could go back to the simpler times...enough said.

[jrsthethird]

I've been playing on and off for 20 years. I'm 28 years old right now and just got back into it, but on MTGO this time since I cashed out a few years ago. If I had seen this level of resentment towards the game 2 months ago, before I bought a new (refurbished) Windows laptop and 3 decks worth of digital cards, I might have had second thoughts. But whatever, I love this game and I was itching to play again. It's a bad drug that just pulls you back in when you thought you were done.

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

Lots of thoughts, lots of responses. Here goes:


A couple years ago, on the cusp of cashing out of competitive Magic, a friend of mine said something along the lines of, "All competitive Magic players are just frustrated they couldn't live the dream of being competitive Poker players." Holy shit was he right. I started cashing out of Legacy shortly after that and now I basically don't go to any tournaments bigger than a prerelease anymore because of exactly the dynamic CML talks about. I just don't care anymore. I'll play Commander with friends because I like my friends and I like Commander, but I have other hobbies and other things to do with my time than hang out with Grinders.

The poker thing. YES. And there are so many better things to do than grinding erryday for a marginal increase in win %. Especially in a game where matchups can be your utter downfall. Also, grinding in a poker room isn't much better than grinding MTG all night. I think the only perk is the free drinks.


If you have Finkel on camera, that's not appealing to new players, it's appealing to those who know who he is and how good he is. (Interesting aside, Finkel once was asked who he liked watching the most and he said he doesn't like watching other people play. 2012 Player's Championship interview, I think.)

This isn't surprising to me. I found him on OKCupid after that fiasco a few years ago, and just from his profile I could tell he wasn't as stuffy as a lot of pros can be. He had a sense of humor about the whole thing. I honestly only watched coverage once in my life, and it was for a Jupiter Games Legacy event my friends were playing in that I couldn't make. I just watched when my friend was in the feature. Never seemed interesting to me, and even less so now that I hear so many bad things about it.


This is the appeal of watching a stream of someone playing MTGO -- you get to see what is in their hand and often get to hear most of their thought process. MTGO can't replicate the feeling of playing physical cards, but there's a lot of plusses to the future of professional Magic being digital. No cheating, more information for the viewers, and you can even mic up the players. Obviously right now all of this is outweighed by how terrible MTGO is, but I don't think Magic as a spectator event has a longterm future with physical cards.

I agree with this. I was testing against a guy on MTGO and he told me to check out his twitch account. I had never used twitch before, but on a whim I decided to check it out. Probably for the ridiculously vain reason of seeing my own deck on there. Needless to say, I was late, because I didn't realize it was a live stream. I watched anyway, and he had personality. I could see myself hanging out with the dude. He was listening to music, chatting with his viewers/teammates, going through his decklist choices; he even got bored of MTGO for the time and switched to Hearthstone and I watched him play two matches of THAT.


As far as coverage goes, I think there are a few simple steps they could take to make it a bit more interesting and (more importantly) accessible.

First: make the top 8 special.
Second: pocket cams.
Third: make the commentary less conjecture, more exposition.
Fourth: on-screen graphics.

So basically, make it exactly like poker.

These are really great ideas. A third day, your players will be well-rested and informed of the matchups and opponents, so they'll be able to make the absolute best choices. The commentators will have done research into the decklists and player backgrounds, so they'll have more interesting notes that the players might not even realize (Player X frequently bluffs a pump spell; Player Y never taps out playing blue; something like that). Pocket cams (or more realistically, GoPros/glasses cam) can tell what's in the hand, as well as sideboarding/tutoring decisions. The players can take their time, with a judge handling the decks, and the whole shebang can be edited together afterwards with the relevant graphics. Seeing GoPro footage as a viewer is probably TERRIBLE, but a normal overhead view with a digital graphic overlay on the side with hands/graveyards/etc. would be aesthetically pleasing to watch.

But this is too much work for a company that isn't willing (or necessarily needing) to do it.


This is actually a really interesting statement because it reflects some real truth at WOTC. A while back I was listening to Mark Rosewater's podcast in which he talked about all of the changes made since Future Sight. One of the big reasons for the whole "New World Order" plan was a result of the Future Sight block really turning off casual players. Rosewater said that for the first time in Magic's history, they saw increased tournament attendance but decreased sales of boosters. What was happening, which was never apparent to them before, was that tournament players embraced Future Sight but casual players hated it. Up until that point they just assumed that Tournament Attendance and Booster Sales had a strong natural correlation. And it showed to them, for the first time ever, that the bulk of their sales actually came from casual players. Up til that point I would assume that alot of effort went into marketing and promoting tournaments and professional play, because they simply thought that competitive players were driving the majority of their sales. After Future Sight, their conclusion was the opposite: to make the most money, they had to cater instead to the casual player first and foremost. So long story short... they definitely don't need the "pro" player, and their decreased tournament payout/support in general probably reflects that.

Why would tournament players buy packs? They get the singles they need from the secondary market. Seems kinda boneheaded in retrospect to think Wizards didn't realize this.

[Lord Seth]

I mean, as food for thought, when was the last time we saw combo? Splinter Twin?Jeskai Ascendancy, actually.

[Infinitium]

[...]The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.

Because if its one thing economic history teaches us it's that booming markets will continue to do so indefinetly without risks for involved parties.

[Humphrey]

I agree with many postings here. For me, the "real" magic slowly died over the last 20 years. Un-honorable mentions to Planeswalkers (fucked the game), new Frame (look at alters whats possible), stupid carddesign (giving blue everything),fundamental rulechanges (getting rid of manaburn), stupid (non-)bannings (TC, Brainstorm) and mainstreaming the complexity.

Yet Magic is more successful than ever and most players I know are into casual gaming anyways (mostly Highlander, EDH here)

Thank God, I found the Cube-format, where I can chose from 25k+ cards and can create that Magic experience I want to play. (and play with copies instead of insanely overpriced cards)

Maybe some of us just notice how old they are getting. Heck, I play since 1996...


oh and the cheating.. Flame me, but good cheating is one of the skills you need to be succesful. Be it Magic, Sports or Life. If you always play by the rules, you achieve nothing.

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.
When Magic's popularity finally starts to wane, this won't be the case anymore. Rare and collectible cards will retain value commensurate with their rarity and collectability, but stuff that is not particularly collectible will drop in price. In particular, stuff from within five or so years of Magic's peak popularity will drop like a rock as new acquisitions lose interest and try to liquidate their collections, flooding the market with cards.

Wizards really needs to get a handle on affordability issues. Casuals are great and all but individual casual players don't support LGSes and don't support tournaments at anywhere near the level to keep the lights on - casual players may spend $15-20 buying packs or singles around the time a set drops but will disappear or buy a pack infrequently in the dry spells between. A single competitive player will drop more on cards and drafts and tournament fees in a month than a dozen casual players will in a year, thereby effectively subsidizing casual players who just want to have somewhere to buy packs and occasionally play a prerelease. The problem now is that wild secondary market price fluctuations (especially like Modern this season) effectively choke the casual to competitive player conversion rate, while burning out competitive players that don't want to continue spending buckets of cash to keep up with the metagame but also don't want to continue to jam the same obsolete deck into increasingly hostile tournaments. If WotC can't crack that nut, or takes too long to do so, then we'll start seeing players leaving the game in large numbers.

[phonics]

See I don't want much commentary, just a play-by-play. You don't need to tell me what the thought process is or why you think the play is going to be, because that's all just speculation. Do an interview after the match and get actual information. Yes, more information would require more people, probably an entire production team like any other televised sporting event. Not necessarily for every SCG Open or GP, but for the highest levels of play, it should be something polished. There's an air of legitimacy that that's just missing from the Pro Tour.

One thing I forgot in the previous post - the prize support has to get better. 250K for a pro tour win, for how many hours of work? Some DOTA (League maybe? I don't follow that closely) tournament just crowd-funded a 13 million dollar prize pool. GP payouts are even more pathetic, especially considering the time and money involved just in participating in the event. Hasbro made a net profit of $375 million in 09...throw us a bone here guys.

I think the reason commentary is bad is because commentators are bad, When you get someone that is passionate about the format and is knowledgable it clearly shows, one of my favorite commentators is Steve Menendian when he commentates vintage like at Vintage Champs years ago and sometimes on the Vintage Super League, or David Williams. But in formats that are much more linear like Standard and limited there really isn't much to say most of the time. In terms of prize payout it really isn't even much of an incentive for winning, I mean when you are able to get an event that has ~7.5k players at the main event who each paid 75$ to enter, with the winner taking home an earth shattering 4000$ for the deed, it seems a little absurd.

[iamajellydonut]

In terms of prize payout it really isn't even much of an incentive for winning, I mean when you are able to get an event that has ~7.5k players at the main event who each paid 75$ to enter, with the winner taking home an earth shattering 4000$ for the deed, it seems a little absurd.

To be fair, it was two tournaments of about 3.6k players each and the inflated price of entry was due to the event being sealed.

[Plague Sliver]

The CML article really resonated with me. CML, if you're reading this, THANK YOU for writing this.

It's helped me remove the blinders / reality distortion field of why I play this game, and forced me to confront my "Magic demons." In fact, I'm working on a retrospective of why I play, and it's entirely fueled by his article. I'm not a known player at all in the Legacy scene, but I really like CML's "call a spade a spade" approach.

I think the biggest takeaway from his article is simple: we as Magic players take the game too seriously. But it's precisely because we are the biggest competitive dicks that we come back to this drug time and time again, and why we keep playing this crappy game.

@danyul - why do I think I know the specific person you're talking about...making 80k and dropping mad dough on Magic cards ;)

[MGB]

I've been playing on and off for 20 years. I'm 28 years old right now and just got back into it, but on MTGO this time since I cashed out a few years ago. If I had seen this level of resentment towards the game 2 months ago, before I bought a new (refurbished) Windows laptop and 3 decks worth of digital cards, I might have had second thoughts. But whatever, I love this game and I was itching to play again. It's a bad drug that just pulls you back in when you thought you were done.

Honestly the only thing that makes the game worth buying into and playing again is that the cards retain value over time. The thousands I made selling out a few years ago would be five figures worth now, but if I rebuy another 5 years from now they'll be worth twice as much. It's a hobby AND an investment plan at the same time. Can't argue with that.


This really isn't something you can rely on. Cards have increased in value up until now, but at some point the specter of nearly-perfect Chinese fakes will materialize in a big way and the market will be flooded with duplicates that are indistinguishable from the "real thing". Who knows when it will happen, but I'm pretty convinced that at some point it will be impossible to tell real cards from fake cards if they don't have any of the new forgery countermeasures embedded in the cards. When this does happen en masse, then you will see a massive drop in the value of all of your old cards.

If you believe that this will happen at some point in the near future, it probably would not be wise to count on this concept of "Magic as an investment plan".

[TsumiBand]

Yeah definitely don't count on the re-re-re-re-cashing out thing to work out. Even forgetting counterfeits (which, you shouldn't, but... ) the mere fact that satisfying entry barriers in Vintage has led to venues going 100% proxy events is telling of just how much it actually matters to Vintage that people get to play with "real" Power. So whether or not Eternal formats continue to have participants, or whether or not the format(s) grow, or what-have-you -- these are less important than the ways in which the participants have adjusted their expectations. It's checkers with rocks and sticks, sure, but the game is intact. I wouldn't trust it to hold, or at least, not like it has in years previous.

[Richard Cheese]

As much as I've hated on the reserved list, I have to admit that I'm totally that guy that's not buying into Modern because I know the prices on a lot of these cards will eventually tank. Sure, there's some stuff like Goyfs and Bobs that probably won't see release outside Modern Masters sets, but there's plenty of stuff out there like Grove, Canopy, Blood Moon, Guide, etc. that could just get shoehorned into any new set like Thoughtseize.

Also, it's not inspiring any hope to see that MtG as financial investment is probably driving these prices way more than some mythical rabid Modern player base. I just read this the other day on mtgstocks:


"Tendo Ice Bridge is another card in a long line of Modern cards that got bought out. As these buyouts progress I can now tell you with increasing certainty that speculating on cards is now happening a lot more, and also outside the usual channels. Spikes seem more sudden and look a lot more unpredictable.

I have no idea if this trend will continue, but it worries me. I mean, Tendo Ice Bridge is a card that is used as a one-off in Hive Mind decks. It does its job, but it is not $12.73 good.There is no real reason why anyone would or should pay $50 for a playset.

When people buy out a card you need to have a real demand to back it up. You can't just buy out a card nobody wants and expect to make a profit. You can buy all copies of Aventurer's Guildhous and see the price of the card go up. But who is going to buy the card? Nobody. So the price will fall until supply meets demand.

But the sad thing is that there is a real demand for Tendo Ice Bridge. And that demand will probably not change if its price is twice as high. If you like Hive Mind and want to play in a Grand Prix or another tournament you will have to buy the card. It's like gasoline. Everybody thinks it is too expensive, but you won't stop refueling. And that's how this speculation is hurting magic. Not in its collectible spirit, but in our collective wallets."


WotC really has to get a better handle on the secondary market if they want the game to continue to grow. I realize that having a bunch of mediocre cards going for $50+ is just money in the bank for them, but by slow-rolling reprintings like this, I think they're risking flying a little too close to the sun.

[TsumiBand]

Also, as long as we're saying "WotC needs to _____ in short order" and bringing up HS -- not sure how common this is, but my friend already lost a bunch of packs in the Magic Duels app. Like, he played through a quest, got his packs, opened them, logged off, came back, no packs. Happened twice in a row. He's not touching it until they patch whatever the problem is.

I mention this because the experience of playing Magic is at the core of our conversation right now, and if this is their offering to try and win people back who genuinely pivoted to other online CCGs, then our anecdote suggests a poor start.

[Ace/Homebrew]

WotC really has to get a better handle on the secondary market if they want the game to continue to grow. I realize that having a bunch of mediocre cards going for $50+ is just money in the bank for them, but by slow-rolling reprintings like this, I think they're risking flying a little too close to the sun.
It is interesting that the game seems to have the opposite problem it did when Chronicles was released.

Chronicles' release oversaturated the market, driving card prices down and the player base diminished.
Now speculation is driving up prices and WotC is wary of increasing supply to meet demand even though prices might be limiting Modern's popularity.

[GundamGuy]

Now speculation is driving up prices and WotC is wary of increasing supply to meet demand even though prices might be limiting Modern's popularity.

Speculating on cards like this is extremely risky. What's more likely to happen is that these speculators will make a mistake and find themselevs out a lot of money.

Anyone who was trying to speculate on City of Brass would must have pretty unhappy when Mana Confluence was spoiled...

Somtimes you'll guess right, but sometimes you'll get it wrong.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Anyone who was trying to speculate on City of Brass would must have pretty unhappy when Mana Confluence was spoiled... While I agree with your sentiment, I disagree with your example. :tongue:

City of Brass peaked around $66 according to mtggoldfish (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Arabian+Nights/City+of+Brass#paper). This was right as Mana Confluence was released. It dropped to about $60 and has remained there since. Anyone speculating on City of Brass would have done so a while before JOU's release and probably still made money.

I believe it is generally safer to speculate on cards from early Magic sets than it is on any other cards. I believe 93/94 Magic also keeps the price of City of Brass high.

[Ellomdian]

Casuals are great and all but individual casual players don't support LGSes and don't support tournaments at anywhere near the level to keep the lights on - casual players may spend $15-20 buying packs or singles around the time a set drops but will disappear or buy a pack infrequently in the dry spells between. A single competitive player will drop more on cards and drafts and tournament fees in a month than a dozen casual players will in a year, thereby effectively subsidizing casual players who just want to have somewhere to buy packs and occasionally play a prerelease.

Aggro, what kind of a relationship do you have with your LGS? Just curious, because for anything more than just a corner of a strip mall LGS, 'casual' players spend wayyyyy more on retail product than any tournament grinder. 'Casual' players are more likely to buy a box at release, and they don't spend weeks before analyzing the pack value - they just buy product and open it and play with dragons. Casual players are also significantly more likely to stock up on accessories - dice, sleeves, deck boxes, and play mats all have much better turnover than with Grinders. And you aren't going to sell special stuff like FtV to Grinders.

Also, and this is something that people really need to understand: If you run a traditional retail establishment, singles counters are nightmares. Your cost for labor is huge, because you need someone who is working the counter and someone who can keep an eye on the rest of the store. You will endure endless requests for cards that literally aren't worth the time it takes to get them out of backstock, acquiring cards is a hassle (whether you are NOS or buying from customers.) Insurance can be a pain, because there isn't a MSRP/Wholesale cost on them. And you have to maintain it if you want to see any profit - that means cycling through your displays and stock every week or so, and major shifts when new sets come in.

Now, I full well expect half a dozen responses from store owners who are proud of how easy/how much money their singles counters make, but You Are The Exception. Half a dozen different local stores talk to me about the same issues, and I've heard similar complaints from stores across the country when I travel. If you are a Game Store first and a Magic Tourney Site second, you can typically demonstrate how your average sale per person crashes when you have an event. Most places sell snacks and drinks pretty much solely because if they didn't, they wouldn't be making any real money on the event. And your 'profit' from entry fees is typically turning right around to prizes, registration fees, judge comp, and whatever overhead you had to begin with.

[sjmcc13]

'Casual' players are more likely to buy a box at release, and they don't spend weeks before analyzing the pack value - they just buy product and open it and play with dragons. Ya, most grinders do not open packs and go straight to singles, Casuals and Collectors open packs, Drafters open packs. Some of the cards from those packs enter the singles market, but allot of the proceeds from that ends up being used to open more packs/draft again, but not as much as is coming straight out of the casual players pockets.


Casual players are also significantly more likely to stock up on accessories - dice, sleeves, deck boxes, and play mats all have much better turnover than with Grinders. This seems off to me, you wold expect Grinders to go through sleeves faster then Casuals as you do not want marked sleeves, though I would expect the #'s difference to shift the sales back in favour of Casuals. Deck Boxes and playmate I would expect to sell to casuals as grinders do not care about the deck box, and want the GP/PT/ETc exclusive playmats, not the generic new ones released with each set.

[Seraphix]

Maybe I haven't played this game seriously for long enough to be jaded (only since 2012), but I am satisfied with my current Magic experience overall.

I've never aspired to play on the Pro Tour, but I still enjoy going to bigger Legacy tournaments. Besides the traveling and seeing friends aspect, I seem to be in the minority in that I like seeing the different types of people there and playing against random opponents all day. Heck, I love just walking around the tables between rounds and seeing all the different decks being played. The overwhelming majority of my opponents have been pleasant, courteous, and seemingly functional human beings, with only a few cunts here and there. This is true for every format I've played, but particularly for Legacy, probably because there are fewer of the grinder types (since there are "no events" for Legacy) and we're all secure in the fact that we've blown thousands on this game. In terms of play experience, there is still really no substitute for Magic. I can't play (or watch) MTGO or online games that lack the stimulation and interaction of paper Magic.

At the same time, I can't help but feel that the game at large is headed in a "worse" direction. The issues with the pro scene the author and others in this thread have alluded to such as prize support are real. Modern is a basket case, and Standard has become stale enough for me to finally quit it as of last September. Each new block seems even less inspiring than the last in terms of mechanics, flavor, and artwork. The new Planet of the Apes-esque Gideon (along with the confirmation of his race as "Indo-European" or something by Wizards) is terrible and laughable to the point of parody. I don't think I want to have anything to do with Battle of Zendikar this Fall.

[Finn]

Seraphix, you aren't alone. The only real issues lie in tournament Magic. I have been playing for a very long time, and while I am bummed that the current environment is as it is, I play casually much more than I play competitively. My casual environment has always been more fun to play in and to brew in. Come to think of it, every deck that I have ever brought into competitive Legacy over the years (I think - there may be an exception or two) has spent a month or more with me tinkering and discussing it with friends while I just play it for fun before any of you guys hear about it.

Casual is still great. Our Show and Tell decks get around Containment Priest with Erratic Explosion. Our combos are of the Bloodchief Ascension, Zur's Weirding type. And so on. It is not all tournament-worthy, but whatever. It is constant innovation - always with friendly people, occasionally with beer. Parsecs better than the experience at a tournament. I would never have stayed interested in this game as long as I have if I had to rely on the tournament scene to get there.

Let the current environment suck. (It does.) It will get worked out all in good time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I've never aspired to play on the Pro Tour, but I still enjoy going to bigger Legacy tournaments. Besides the traveling and seeing friends aspect, I seem to be in the minority in that I like seeing the different types of people there and playing against random opponents all day. Heck, I love just walking around the tables between rounds and seeing all the different decks being played.
I'm unconvinced you are in the minority. The internet is filled with vocal minorities who will try to convince you everyone thinks like they do. Your experience mirrors mine as well. Going to SCG Opens and GPs feels like 'going to the show' after slumming it in the 'minor league' local scenes. I get to attend them so infrequently that I am always excited when they finally come around. I cannot imagine retaining that excitement if it was a majority of my Magic experience though. :rolleyes:


...confirmation of [Gideon's] race as "Indo-European" or something by Wizards...
Yeah this bothers me too, although I haven't seen it in writing to solidify my anger toward it. Unless he's an Earthling, there's no way he could be Indo-European. :mad:

[danyul]

This thread is moving too fast for my lazy ass to keep up. But I'm not as curmudgeonly as my post would have suggested. Events are still fun because I get to see wizardly friends. Perhaps I should try MTG in a less competitive form and see if that keeps me interested in the game.


@danyul - why do I think I know the specific person you're talking about...making 80k and dropping mad dough on Magic cards ;)

Haha nah it's not anybody you would recognize. I was salty after losing to some random Amazon kid at MBH who didn't even seem to know why his deck was good. He just jammed blue cards in my face and beat me up. I don't even recall his name.

[wcm8]

If you're playing Legacy with the intention of making money, you're playing it for the wrong reasons.

Legacy/Vintage are more akin to playing Chess in a park, albeit with cardboard instead of black and white game pieces. The comparison will become increasingly more apt as good Chinese counterfeits flood the market and become indistinguishable from real vintage cards, with newcomers being able to buy a complete set of Dual Lands, fetches and other high-value cards for <$100.

People still love playing competitive chess even though there are very few tournaments with massive prize incentives. There is a strong community that loves chess, that continue to study the history of the game and contribute articles on strategy.

I'm not sure the Eternal MtG community really even wants to attract the sort of person who'd be drawn to the game because of prize incentive.

[Richard Cheese]

If you're playing Legacy with the intention of making money, you're playing it for the wrong reasons.

Legacy/Vintage are more akin to playing Chess in a park, albeit with cardboard instead of black and white game pieces. The comparison will become increasingly more apt as good Chinese counterfeits flood the market and become indistinguishable from real vintage cards, with newcomers being able to buy a complete set of Dual Lands, fetches and other high-value cards for <$100.

People still love playing competitive chess even though there are very few tournaments with massive prize incentives. There is a strong community that loves chess, that continue to study the history of the game and contribute articles on strategy.

I'm not sure the Eternal MtG community really even wants to attract the sort of person who'd be drawn to the game because of prize incentive.

There's also not some company that owns the rights to Chess adding new pieces twice per year, controlling supply, and constantly pushing the competitive aspect of the game. I'm with most people here...I like the big events because Magic is a fun game and it's generally a huge spectacle that you can participate in with friends. I'm just getting a little burnt out on them for two reasons.

First, the format just feels predictable, which is new to me. Maybe that's just my personal bias, but I don't think I'm alone.

Second, the events keep getting bigger but they aren't getting any better. Entry fees are going up, but the venues are getting further from anything interesting. Concessions are shit, bathrooms are hell, there's nowhere to eat and no time to do it anyway. If the prize support is going to continue to suck as the game gets bigger and bigger, at least try to make the events something worth going to. Round up some local food trucks, offer some non-Magic stuff to do so people can unwind between rounds or not be miserable if they drop while friends are still in.

[Cire]

There's also not some company that owns the rights to Chess adding new pieces twice per year, controlling supply, and constantly pushing the competitive aspect of the game.

Ha, but that would be so fun :tongue:. I'll be waiting for my assassin and disgruntled heir pieces any day now.

[iamajellydonut]

There's also not some company that owns the rights to Chess adding new pieces twice per year, controlling supply, and constantly pushing the competitive aspect of the game.

Sixteen years later still with an 8x8 board.

[TsumiBand]

En passant = pawn power creep

[Lord Seth]

En passant = pawn power creepEnh... I think en passant is more analogous to errata, as it was an attempt to correct that under the new rules where Pawns could move forward two spaces, they could bypass enemy pawns that previously could capture them. So this was an attempt to have them still sort of function the same under the new rules.

The real power creep in Chess is the Queen being able to move any number of squares in all directions (previously, it could only move one square diagonally), Bishops being able to move any number of squares diagonally (previously, they could only move three at a time), and of course, the ability of Pawns to move forward two squares instead of one on their first move. And the King and Rook got an upgrade in castling. Interestingly, Knights are the only piece to not have received that "power creep," as they basically stayed the same.

[Cire]

Enh... I think en passant is more analogous to errata, as it was an attempt to correct that under the new rules where Pawns could move forward two spaces, they could bypass enemy pawns that previously could capture them. So this was an attempt to have them still sort of function the same under the new rules.

The real power creep in Chess is the Queen being able to move any number of squares in all directions (previously, it could only move one square diagonally), Bishops being able to move any number of squares diagonally (previously, they could only move three at a time), and of course, the ability of Pawns to move forward two squares instead of one on their first move. And the King and Rook got an upgrade in castling. Interestingly, Knights are the only piece to not have received that "power creep," as they basically stayed the same.

So Queen = Blue and Knights = Red?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I've just read the article once again. It's like Satriani, you always find something new in it.

[Richard Cheese]

En passant = pawn power creep

New Chess, featuring megachessatron:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV1bpMamCtY