Thopterblight Combo

[Cire]

Moving this from developing section as it's much more of a modern concept:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29688-Deck-Creation-Thopter-blight-Combo&p=892824&posted=1#post892824

Core of this deck is

4 Shape Anew
4 Thopter Engineer
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Then including modern staples:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 lighting bolt
4 serum visions

For modern the biggest issue for playing this deck will be. . . why not twin? Twin costs the same amount of mana, and one of it's pieces has flash. . . additionally while we also have redundancy in that their are plenty of card to run alongside Thopter, none of those cards also give haste.

So there are a couple options. The first is a "you can't beat them, join em" mentality in that we can run the above combo alongside the twin combo. . . The second is that we run white, which twin doesn't for blade splicer and good white cards like PTE, Lightning Helix, or other removal. The third is that we explicitly build our deck to counter twin. . .

Option 2 seems like the most sane approach at least to start. . . and this is what I have

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Blade Splicer
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 lighting bolt
4 serum visions
4 Faithless Looting
4 Shape Anew

23 Lands

It looks fairly nondescript and inoffensive - but I am not sure it's going to make an impact. . . what do you guys think?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't really see how this would be better than a Polymorph -> emrakul deck since the only thing you get to play that they don't is Snapcaster and all of your combo pieces are bad on their own. Twin gets to use flash creatures that mess with opponents manabase, and that's just a huge advantage.

[Cire]

Well I know that this will be compared to twin - and I am unsure of any advantage that it can offer. As I jokingly suggest - one could conceivably run both combos. That's obviously a bad reason but perhaps here's another reason. . . Deciever and pestermite do not have the same creature type. . . Splicer, Engineer and even Snapcaster are all human . . . we can run Cavern of Souls for human to make all our creatures uncounterable. This solves the remand problem at the very least? Additionally Shape Anew is a sorcery unlike twin which is an enchantment. This means if it gets countered or whatever, you can flash it back with snapcaster. Additionally, perhaps if you're really worried about counters you can also run Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

The only other advantage is just that Twin doesn't run white and instead opts for Green for goyf or black for Tasigur and thoughtseize. This is really just a different direction - Again though this is all brainstorming so I am unsure whether this has potential or not. . . .

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Inkmoth Nexus
15 TBD lands

[MaximumC]

"Why not Twin?"

1) Because this is actually more of a one-card combo. Twin uses cards that are not really very good all by themselves, too, and lots of them. Pestermite or Exarch are very narrow cards on their own; Splinter itself is expensive and kind of bad unless you're comboing out. Provided you have good ways to create artifacts, you only have 5 slots for the combo: BSC and 4 Shapes.

2) Because it is more flexible in mana. Shape costs 3U compared to Twin's 2RR, so all it requires is that you have a blue splash in your deck. From there, you can either go mono-color and rely on your 8 Nexuses for your artifacts, or you can choose whatever other color you want as long as you have a critical mass of artifact-makers.

3) It reacts to different hate. Depending on the build, instant-speed removal or -1/-1 effects are still effective, but propoganda effects, enchantment removal, and Torpor Orb effects are less effective.

"Why not Polymorph?"

1) Because Shape gives you less restrictions in building your deck. Not being able to run creatures is a much bigger liability than not being able to play artifacts.

So, with all of that said, how could you build this? Here's a few ideas.

--- Shape Anew Tempo ---

Combo and Enablers (13)
4 Shape Anew
1 BSC
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus

Disruption (17)
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Vapor Snag
5 ---METAGAME/SB SLOTS

Creatures (13)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmagoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

Search // Draw (3)
1 Tolaria West
2 See Beyond

Colored Mana Lands (14)

-- Shape Anew Control ---

Combo and Enablers (16)
4 Shape Anew
1 BSC
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Thopter Spy Network

Disruption (19)
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Path to Exile
2 Vapor Snag
2 Wrath of God / whatever
3 METAGAME / SB SLOTS

Creatures (6)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Search // Draw (5)
1 Tolaria West
4 Serum Visions

Colored Mana Lands (14)

And so on. You can put this general shell into almost any kind of deck you like. Some critical inclusions:

1. Vendilion Clique. It's disruption, it's a threat, it's on-color with Shape Anew, and it lets you put BSC back into the deck in a pinch. Love it!

2. The Nexues -- There's really no better way to fuel your Shape Anew. Yeah, it makes it into a 5 mana spell, but unless you're going the Tempered Steel route, i think you need to just accept that 4 of your land slots and 4 of your creature slots are gonna be these dorks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I mean you answer the questions as if a 3rd grader is asking them. The problems with this strategy are that even if you resolve a Shape Anew you're going to need the haste creature to kill that turn or you're fundamentally a turn slower (Thopter Engineer dies to a bolt, so there's that), you're actually susceptible to blockers shutting off your plan for some number of turns (and lots of decks have 2 toughness of blockers). Sure you can argue you'll win past then, but it gives the opponent a full turn to either untap and kill you or draw something like Path. Or they'll have removal and Liliana. The problem with a resolved colossus is that every deck I can think of has some way of blocking it and then dealing with it/killing you next turn.

But even worse is Shape Anew targets and every single target you play dies to Lightning Bolt + Abrupt Decay. Deceiver Exarch is good because he doesn't die to bolt. He dies to Abrupt Decay, but he also forces the opponent to keep up mana or die. Abrupt Decay generally can only be used in response to the tap effect, not the Splinter Twin, making it a 1 for 1 until late game. SA is a 2 card combo that dies to literally every removal spell in the format, and you can't protect it unless you wait for more mana. Dispel is a great card, but how long can we feasibly sit back with our subpar creatures (compared to any deck that is playing creatures).

I understand how the decks are different, but where splinter twin covers its weaknesses this combo just leaves them glaring at you.

[MaximumC]

I mean you answer the questions as if a 3rd grader is asking them.

Modern needs more third graders, if you ask me.



The problems with this strategy are that even if you resolve a Shape Anew you're going to need the haste creature to kill that turn or you're fundamentally a turn slower (Thopter Engineer dies to a bolt, so there's that), you're actually susceptible to blockers shutting off your plan for some number of turns (and lots of decks have 2 toughness of blockers). Sure you can argue you'll win past then, but it gives the opponent a full turn to either untap and kill you or draw something like Path. Or they'll have removal and Liliana. The problem with a resolved colossus is that every deck I can think of has some way of blocking it and then dealing with it/killing you next turn.


Yep, this is all true. The fact that Path and Lily can stop BSC is actually a huge deal and makes BSC somewhat more risky than Griselbanned or Emrakul. However, blocking a Colossus is not a very attractive proposition. In Modern, that will likely only buy you one turn, maybe 2 if you have some fully-powered Goyfs and chaff to toss in the way.



But even worse is Shape Anew targets and every single target you play dies to Lightning Bolt + Abrupt Decay. Deceiver Exarch is good because he doesn't die to bolt. He dies to Abrupt Decay, but he also forces the opponent to keep up mana or die. Abrupt Decay generally can only be used in response to the tap effect, not the Splinter Twin, making it a 1 for 1 until late game. SA is a 2 card combo that dies to literally every removal spell in the format, and you can't protect it unless you wait for more mana. Dispel is a great card, but how long can we feasibly sit back with our subpar creatures (compared to any deck that is playing creatures).


This is all true, but it boils down to whether Shape is actually a two card combo or not. I'm suggesting you construct a deck where the artifact creatures are there incidentally, and then Shape is just an auto-win if the opponent can't deal with it immediately. The decks I suggested really only take Thopter Network on as a late game grindy win condition from Origins and otherwise rely on the artifact lands as good blockers/inevitability. The concept is forcing your opponent to respect the risk of a Shape just barfing out a monster on the spot. You can't do that with Polymorph, since your deck has to be warped so badly, and I think that's a big part of why Polymorph is not played.



I understand how the decks are different, but where splinter twin covers its weaknesses this combo just leaves them glaring at you.

Splintertwin runs countermagic, alternative game plans; we can do that, too. Really the only card that "covers its weakness" that is not equally applicable to Shape Anew would be Deceiver Exarch. Is Lightning Bolt enough to distinguish the two decks? Maybe? Remember, if you have a pair of artifact creatures out there, then a single Bolt won't stop you the way it would if you tried to go off with Splintertwin.

The fundamental question is this: Is there a deck that incidentally creates artifact creatures that is robust enough to be competitive on its own but also accommodate 5 slots for Shape Anew into BSC? Origins pushes the needle more towards "yes," but I have no idea whether it's there yet.

But, this is a better concept than that stupid Fist of Suns deck someone tried, anyway.

[Cire]

If we're not using engineer - why not just run Fetch Lands into Dryad Arbor into Polymorph into Emrakul? That takes even less "useless" spots in the deck and it gives you a huge monster of a creature. . . one part of the combo is uncounterable and the other could be made uncounterable as well through Boseiju, Who Shelters All? The deck only has the requirement of not playing creatures and splashing blue. . .

Basically, only engineer really makes this deck even worth considering. . .

[Phoenix Ignition]

Dryad arbor does trigger off of polymorph, so you could only really have 1 in your deck if you wanted to consistently hit Emrakul. Manlands and tokens work much better for those purposes.

Anyway,

Splintertwin runs countermagic, alternative game plans; we can do that, too. Really the only card that "covers its weakness" that is not equally applicable to Shape Anew would be Deceiver Exarch. Is Lightning Bolt enough to distinguish the two decks? Maybe? Remember, if you have a pair of artifact creatures out there, then a single Bolt won't stop you the way it would if you tried to go off with Splintertwin.
This isn't true. Both of these decks have weaknesses in that they need 2 cards to go off, (and 7ish mana to do so for their main method). This is a huge drawback, as it usually requires your entire turn 3 and 4's mana. Both strategies also are significantly crippled if you can stop 1 or both of their 2 card combos. Splinter Twin is great at getting around this weakness because it can wait till the end of the opponent's turn to flash one of the 2 card combo, AND tap a land, usually leaving the opponent with the decision "do I kill this creature now and waste my card before it's a 2 for 1 or hope that they are bluffing and don't have the 2nd card yet?"

With Shape Anew you don't get this benefit at all. Turn 3 you play a creature that gives you an artifact. The opponent has all turn to decide if they want to Pyroclasm/Damnation/Maelstrom Pulse/Liliana it. Then on turn 4 you tap out to try to combo and the opponent has all of their mana still available to them. They can decide then if they want to just kill your artifact (thus 2 for 1ing you) or let it resolve and deal with your Blightsteel. The more subtle point here is that against Twin, the player can never be sure whether they have the time to play a threat or if they have to keep up their mana to deal with flash -> twin combo. Against SA if there isn't an artifact yet they can just play a threat and save their kill spell for the next turn (now with significant pressure).

[square_two]

If we're not using engineer - why not just run Fetch Lands into Dryad Arbor into Polymorph into Emrakul? That takes even less "useless" spots in the deck and it gives you a huge monster of a creature. . . one part of the combo is uncounterable and the other could be made uncounterable as well through Boseiju, Who Shelters All? The deck only has the requirement of not playing creatures and splashing blue. . .

Basically, only engineer really makes this deck even worth considering. . .

Even if your Polymorph is uncounterable, they could still respond with removal for the Dryad Arbor and that would accomplish the same thing.

I do like the idea of manlands, Emrakul, Polymorph with the rest of the deck dedicated to disruption and protection. You have access to any color splash blue to build with.

[Cire]

Even if your Polymorph is uncounterable, they could still respond with removal for the Dryad Arbor and that would accomplish the same thing.

I do like the idea of manlands, Emrakul, Polymorph with the rest of the deck dedicated to disruption and protection. You have access to any color splash blue to build with.

I guess you can do something with this pile

Mythrealized
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Liliana of the Veil
Bitter Blossom
Lingering Souls
Path To Exile
Remand
Serum Visions
Polymorph
Day's Undoing
Thoughtseize
Creaturekill cards?

Emrakul

Manlands
Otherlands