[Deck] B/W Stax, Braidstax

[outsideangel]

Let's talk about Stax. Machinus has his Angel Stax thread, dedicated solely to the mono-white build. As promised, I'm opening this thread as a place to discuss the B/W version of Legacy Stax.

First, a little history of B/W Stax. Way back when, legacy Stax basically came in only two flavors. There was the red kind, with Goblin Welder, and the white kind, with Wrath of God and Exalted Angel. Machinus wrote some awesome articles on his mono white build, and every legacy player who loves the prison archetype proxied it up. It was pretty clear that the white build was better than the red build. However, in my testing, I ran into a couple of problems. First, I wasn't seeing Smokestack enough. This deck wants Smokestack, and wants it consistently. But only 4 Smokestacks, especially with little to no card draw, meant I wasn't seeing them as often as I wanted. Secondly, too few win conditions. Win conditions are not incredibly important in Stax, and usually are the last thing you want to think about. However, I would often find myself getting a lock, either hard or soft, and still drawing because after going to time, I couldn't kill them. Going 2-1-2 is not fun, especially when you had all but won those ties. However I didn't want to simply toss in more beaters, because that would dilute the deck too much. Then, searching through the black section of my binder, I found the answer I'd been looking for: Braids, Cabal Minion. A smokestack that beat for 2, Braids was just what this deck needed. But, the 2BB casting cost meant I'd have to make a heavy commitment to black. So I sat down and worked up the following list posted on page 2 of our Angel Stax thread:

4 Scrubland
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Plains
3 Swamp

3 Exalted Angel
3 Braids, Cabal Minion

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Vindicate
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Night of Souls' Betrayel
3 Infest

Janky, but it was a starting point. Note that at this time, I was desperately in love with Suppression Field, which was also a lot stronger in the metagame back then, especially with all the Survival decks running about.

Anyway, the deck has evolved a great deal since then. Wrath effects have been removed for permanent answers, Bottled Cloister is out completely, both the Braids and Smokestacks are maxed out, and I've since found ways to work in the powerful Enlightened Tutor.

My most current list, and the one I feel is the strongest right now:

// Mana 28
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
2 Cave of Koilos
4 Scrubland
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

// Creatures 8
3 Exalted Angel
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Masticore

// Spells 24
4 Smokestack
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Vindicate
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle

The mana base right now I feel is pretty solid. Only occasionally do I run into color troubles, and that's almost always because of the opponent's LD rather than any inherent instability. The fetchlands can be reused with Crucible, and find either your duals or the basic lands. I cut to 3 each of the 2-mana lands to make room for more colored sources. Wasteland is also a 3 of for colored-mana reasons, because decks are running more waste-resistant mana bases, and because with Crucible down, you don't need more than 1 anyway.

Exalted Angel is still a fine win condition. Masticore replaces the 4th Angel because sometimes he's better, being able to shoot down other dudes, and because his inclusion gives us a win condition that we can find with Enlightened Tutor. 4 Braids because stack effects win us the game, and Braids also beats face and can chump block in a pinch. The legendary restriction has yet to ever be an issue.

4 Smokestacks should be obvious. 4 Enlightened Tutor is a more recent addition to the deck, and boosts our power a great deal. Not only does it make the deck amazingly redundant, it also let's us play with a small toolbox. Crucible is a 4 of because it's that good. It comboes with Wasteland, Braids, Smokestack, Mox Diamond, and City of Traitors, and also makes you resistent to LD. I almost always want one. With Tutor, you effectively run 8, but you rarely want to use a Tutor to find Crucible instead of a powerful bullet. Ghostly Prison slows down aggro and buys us serious time. It used to be a 4-of, but one was swapped for a single copy of Moat. We don't want Moat all the time because of the 2WW casting cost, but having a copy to tutor for is very powerful.

The rest of the toolbox should be self explanatory. Running both E. Plague and Night of Soul's Betrayel gives us strong answers to weenies decks of all shapes and sizes. Plagues comes down first against Goblins, and when you can't cast Night, while you grab Night against stuff like Pikula.dec, White Weenie, and Sligh. Usually, Moat comes first against Gro/Thresh builds and the like, and is also a strong play against Goblins. Chalice and 3sphere you never want more than one of, but are both strong in various matchups, particularly combo like Solidarity. Chalice @ 1 or 2 also beats on Gro. Pithing Needle does what it does, and does it well.

Finally, I run 3 copies of Vindicate as a catch-all answer to whatever permanent might be plagueing you. Many times, Vindiate has saved my butt, and it's also never a dead card. Worst case scenario, you aim it at a land. It answers certain problem cards like quick fatties, troublesome artifacts and enchantments, and the like. I like having it as an out to almost any situation. If it's not to your taste, however, the deck is still strong without them.

Other considerations for the deck: Winter Orb, The Tabernacle and Pendrell Vale, Quicksand, Seal of Cleasing/Aura of Silence/Aura Fracture, Suppression Field, Powder Keg.

Stuff you don't see:
Wrath effects- Wrath effects are temporary. Sure, they might clear the board, but most aggro decks can quickly recover. Goblins can just play Ringleader and jump right back into the game, and Gro and Pikula.dec should both be holding an extra beater back for just that situation. I removed Wrath effects for permanent solutions, answers that stick around and continue to shut down opposing beaters. Moat is the same CC as Wrath, but permanent and tutorable. E.Plague and NoSB also provide similar permanent answers.
Tangle Wire- Again, only a temporary fix. I'd rather deny them permenents forever through Stack effects than make them tap them down for a bit. Wire can buy you time, but that's all it does. We need to be playing cards that win the game. The closes thing in this deck is actually Ghostly Prison, so if you're dead set on Wire, swap them for Prison. I've just found Prison to always be better.

As far as sideboarding goes, it's really up to you and your metagame. For a general tournament scene, I'd probably include the rest of the Plagues, some graveyard hate, possible a couple copies of Perish as an answer to Gro, and at least one Sacred Ground or Pikula.dec. Either Glowrider or Rule of Law are also strong possibilities vs. combo.

In summation, I think that B/W Stax (also called Braidstax) has a number of advantages over its mono-white counterpart. In addition to more Smokestacks, the inclusion of black gives us access to powerful metagame cards like E.Plague and Perish. I also think Enlightened Tutor has a place in this deck, as it digs up everything we want. However, the deck is still open to a lot of work, and can be tuned to fit both your playstyle and metagame. After playing both versions, I'd have to say the B/W Stax is quite the different deck from its mono-white ancestor, but one which I feel surpasses it.

So discuss already!

[Nightmare]

I really like your list, it looks quite solid. I'm glad to see someone is running ETutor, as I think it's one of the most powerful options White brought the deck, however, in this day of rampant Predicts, I'm curious to see how well it works. On the other hand, I HATE Masticore in the deck. You have no way to gain cards in hand, and therefore, can extremely easily get yourself into MasticoreLock. This is a greatly disadvantageous position to be in. I understand the need for a tutorable win condition, I don't think He's the way to go. Normally, I would suggest Karn, but as your build runs less fat artifacts, he may not be it either. I've seen mild sucess in using Mindless Automaton in the Welder versions, he gets Huge and draws you cards when you need them. Karn may be my choice, though, because he eats moxen and artifact lands, as well as Needles and Vials with NoSB on the table.

[fearphage]

What amount do you commonly play chalice for? playing monoW, my first chalice is almost always chalice for 1. Between 4 fectches, 3 ancient tomb, and 2 caves of koilos, do you ever find you need more life gain than 3 angels can provide? could you make it with the caves being more basics to fetch? considered tainted field (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=tainted%20field)?

@ mr. nightmare - predict is actually on its way out of most threshold builds.

I do like the way braids smokestack effect immediately takes place. turn 1 3sphere followed by turn 2 braids is a nice little combo.

turn 1 3sphere followed by turn 2 braids is a nice little combo.

.. and usually game. I can't understand why you are playing it just as a 1-off. I remember my T1 Budget Stax, the only thing it could do well was a fast 3sphere- but that usually was enough!

Sure, this isn't T1, still I think the Sphere is one of the really broken cards; not only does it finish off most combos, it's also decenent against aggro and takes away any chances of getting beack into the game once one of the Stacks resolves.
Tangle Wire was imo always just intended to buy you enough time to find the game-sealing Stack. And Masticore, although he's the one getting all the style points, is just not mighty enough, especially with cards like ETutor (did you always need 4? Seemed a bit like overkill to me, but maybe the toolbox doesn't work with 3...?). I can't think of any good replacements beside the usual things like Karn, Trisk and Titan :-(.

Still, all in all, great deck and BIG thumbs-up!

[outsideangel]

Thanks for your compliments, guys. The best compliment in the world, though, would be for somebody to take this list and win with it. Unfortunately, I can't really afford tournaments right now.

Turn 1 Trinisphere is really strong. However, in Legacy it's also really unlikely. Consider:

Out of 7 cards in hand, you need a four-of (Trinisphere), another four-of (Mox Diamond), one of two three-ofs (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors), and any land. To actually pull that in your opening hand will happen very, very rarely. Turn 1 Trinisphere happened more in T1 because they had access to Workshop and much more artifact mana, so usually whenever you drew a Trinisphere opening hand, you could play it immediately. In Legacy, that's simply not the case. Sure, you'll usually win if it happens, but it's so rare that you really can't count on it.

Trinisphere can reliably come down turn 2 at the earliest. On the play, it will delay them one turn. On the draw, it doesn't stop them from playing anything on its own. Trinisphere is also useless in multiples, and in the late game, and we want to minimize the number of dead draws.

The singleton Trinisphere is there to find for the times when it is good, and to seal the deal with Smokestack. I've also had a lot of sucess running the second Chalice in its place. I put up the list with Trinisphere because I felt people would be more comfortable seeing it. However, it is by no means necessary, and personally, I prefer Chalice. My thinking is that Chalice can completely lock out a cc range on its own, while Trinisphere only locks things out when you're already winning. And in that situation, Chalice is just as good. It's also better to stop Gro from playing Werebears, Pikula from playing Confidants and Shades, Goblins from playing Piledriver altogether, than to simply make those cards cost 1 more mana. And to answer, my first Chalice depends on the deck I'm playing. A general Chalice guide:

Pikula.dec= 2
Solidarity= 1
Burn= 1
UG/r Gro= almost always 1
UG/w Gro= usually 2, unless you want to protect a quick beater
Goblins= 2
Landstill= 2

About Masticore... I understand the reluctance, and honestly, I agree that Masticore is not spectacular. However, it's really the best thing I can think of at this time. Karn isn't that good because there are far fewer Moxen to eat than in T1, we run fewer fat artifacts to animate, and by the time we drop a win condition, we don't really need to beat them down quickly anyway. Masticore is actually a weak lock piece in addition to a beater, since he keeps permanents off of the board. Titan and Trisk are both too expensive, and Mindless Automaton doesn't really do much, and costs too many cards to do it. Yes, you can Masticore-lock yourself out, but again, that usually doesn't matter too much. You've got a Masticore on the board. You should be winning real damn soon. Still, he's one of the weaker cards in this deck, and could definitely be replaced.

The toolbox works with three Tutors, and this isn't a purely toolbox deck anyway. Three Tutors is playable, by all means. I just like having four, because it increases my chances of seeing 2 in a game, meaning against Goblins or Pikula, for example, I have a better chance of getting both E.Plague and NoSB down and just winning. However, if you want to run three, then go with it.

I rarely need more lifegain, and the damage does not often become an issue. Occasionally, Tomb does become a liability. The Caves of Koilos could certainly become more basics. I hadn't considerent Tainted Field. I suppose it could work, but it could make color screw more common. Consider- you have a Scrubland, Field, and Tomb on the board. They waste your Scrubland. Not only are you down a mana, you now have no colored as well. If it's been working, keep it, but I'm a little uneasy relying on lands that need other lands to function, and like I said, the pain isn't often an issue.

Great start to the discussion guys! This list still has a lot of room for improvement, and the best way to do that is test and share ideas.

[cgooch]

Have you considered Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, at least as a one of? Since you are playing 4 Crucible, something I have always agreed with in Stax, the synergy with the Eye seems good.

[Lego]

I don't like this list, simply because I feel like it dilutes your best, and most imporant, matchups. I've been playing Angel Stax off and on for a while, and more often on then off lately, because Thresh is making such a come back. The thing that I find about the deck is that you don't need a Stax lock to win, and if you do you can usually stall long enough to find the Stax.

Take the Threshold matchup. Suppression Field is an absolute house, which you've got, but Chalice of the Void for one is game over, which you *don't* have, at least not enough to draw it turn one. You lose a *lot* of advantage when they Predict your Enlightened Tutor, and for that reason alone I wouldn't run it. In any large tournament, I would expect to face at least a couple Threshold decks, and the chances of them running Predict is too great for me. If they know you might be running the Tutor, they'll hold it. Basically, I'd say that you've diluted the Threshold matchup quite a bit, although it is still probably in your favor.

Moving on to other matchups, I don't see how the extra 4 Stax really improve any matchups, yet I feel like the inconsistancy of some of the things you have done to the deck really hurts it. What percentages do you gain in what matchups to make this worth it?

Really, I don't see why you have a problem with just 4 win conditions. If you do, take out the Ports and throw in 4 Mishra's Factories. They block all day with Crucible, and the Ports have never been that important for me.

One last note: Tangle Wire. The only times I've played this and *Not* had it be equivalent to two time walks is when I was already winning and didn't need it anyway. This can buy you the pivotal one to two turns to draw a couple more threats and add a couple more lock pieces. With the strength of most of the lock pieces the deck runs, I've found that 4 Stax is plenty in the deck. That's just my $.02

[Bane of the Living]

Honestly the build looks good and I'm dying to shuffle it up. But are you being biased about the one 3sphere? This thing is a wrecking ball against combo and will win you many many games when you have wastelock.
Multiple 3spheres aren't really that bad since you can still play them out and sac them to stax, I do this allll the time. It lets you ramp another mana towards angel. Personally I think the deck NEEDS 4 wastelands. Especially since it fits the goal of the deck.

[outsideangel]

The above decklist was definitely, absolutely not set in stone. This is a deck that's meant to be adjusted and tweaked. Goblins is pretty much always gonna be Goblins. Stax has to change according to what's out there. I hadn't realized how popular Gro had gotten until I played in a small tournament the other day and went up against 3 Gro decks in 5 rounds. It might be time to make some adjustments. From the decklist above:

-1 Masticore, +1 Chalice of the Void
This guy just isn't very good against Gro, and definitely not worth sacrificing future resources. Chalice, on the other hand, is quite house, especially because their curve has been getting more and more crowded at the 1 mana slot.

-1 Trinisphere, +1 Chalice of the Void
I've already been running this configuration, just because I've always liked Chalice better. Now that Gro is more popular, Chalice continues to look better.

-1 Flooded Strand, +1 Wasteland
I know I said the 4th Wasteland wasn't really necessary, and it isn't, but Wasteland is so good against Gro, it's good to have four, especially since they will make every effort to counter Crucible.

-1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Suppression Field
Suppression Field is good against Gro. No duh! It's not quite as good as Crucible + Wasteland, and it definitely won't shut them down entirely, but it'll sure slow 'em to a crawl. Predict really isn't a concern, as you should pretty much always be able to play around it, and if they sit there with two lands up all the time, well, that's even better. However, with more Chalice @ 1 action, you want fewer dead cards.

-1 Pithing Needle, +1 Suppression Field
You can still Pith fetchlands, and that's still certainly good, but Suppression Field is a bit broader, and doesn't get hit by Chalice @ 1. Still, shutting down 4 fetchlands might be better than slowing down all 8.

-1 Flooded Strand, -2 Polluted Delta, +2 Caves of Koilos, +1 Ancient Den.
To accomodate for Suppression Field/Pithing Needle on fetchlands.


These are the changes I'd make if Gro continues to be ever more widely played. Braids is actually pretty good against Gro, because of their low permanent count. Also, she makes a solid backup for a countered Smokestack.

In the sideboard, I'd definitely keep a few copied of Perish handy, as well as the last Chalice, and maybe even the other 2 Suppression Fields. You board out the Plague and NoSB for sure, and probably bring the Perishes in for Vindicate.

That new Leyline of the Void looks like it could be interesting, especially since we can usually play it by turn 3 if we don't start with it in play, which may or may not be early enough to do anything worth while. Still, it could warrant some testing.

[Citrus-God]

Are you sure you want to run more Chalices? I see E Tutor becoming crap after it hits play. I mean E Tutors our way of playing with Solutions.

Heres my build. It's something I've been using a lot before that article came out...


// Sympathy for the Devil
// Mana 27
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
2 Cave of Koilos
1 Ancient Den
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Plains
2 Swamp


// Creatures 7
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Exalted Angel


// Spells 27
4 Smokestack
4 Enlighten Tutor
4 Vindicate
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Moat
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Suppression Field
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Damping Matrix
1 Cursed Totem
1 Null Rod
1 Sphere of Law
1 Sacred Ground
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Defense Grid
1 Honden of Cleansing Fire (Weird, huh?)
1 Engineered Explosives/Powder Keg

[Lego]

@ Anti~American: Please post some card analysis for your decklist.

@ Outside Angel: Removing Trinisphere for Chalice of the Void? This seems counter-prodcutive, especially from someone who switched to this build to get more Stax. The most important card in the Threshold matchup is Chalice of the Void, not Stax, and Trinisphere is just about as good as Chalice number 5-8. That's why I play 4 of each. Try it out, if it resolves turn 1 or 2, that's game over, and even when it resolves later on, after a nice Tangle Wire or Suppression Field, it's as good as Chalice.

[outsideangel]

I've never been a huge fan of Trinisphere, for reasons I've outlined many times elsewhere. I think Chalice is simply better, and, not having room to run both, I run Chalice over Trinisphere. Chalice can come down 1st turn a lot more often than Trinisphere. Chalice and Trinisphere can both affect the 1-2 cc range. Trinisphere everything in the range 1-2 cc range cost more. Chalice picks a specific cc range and makes those cards completely unplayable. Chalice is better in the late game, and the second Chalice is still useful. If I had room, I'd run both, definitely. But I don't, so I just run Chalice.

3 Tutors and 3 Chalices interfere with each other alot less often than you think. I drop Chalice @ 2 more often than @ 1, and in the matches where I do set Chalice @ 1, like Gro, it's so good it doesn't matter. We can afford to make 3 cards in our deck dead if it means we shut down something like 16 or 20 cards in theirs.

[Bane of the Living]

@ Anti & Lego
I thought you were saying mono white is stronger? Are you not sure?

Well have you ever thought of trinisphere in conjunction with nether void. a 1cc spell now cost 6! Since your running e tutuor you should be playing this as a one of. Nothing hotter than wastelocking an opponent and bringing out the nasty nasty. I would rename the deck Death Star if you go w it. Of course you need to put those 3spheres back in :P

[Lego]

@ Bane: I do think the Mono-White version is better. Like I said, there's just been no noticeable change in matchup percentages to show me that the black splash is worth it.

@ Nether Void: Hott :) I'd play black just for that. But then I'd want to play Haunting Echoes ;) Not sure why :)

[Citrus-God]

@ Anti~American: Please post some card analysis for your decklist.

Sure, it's mostly on things I hate...

And Bane, that's mad Cron Stax tech...


Everything else should be a nobrainer, but my SB is something that's worth talking about...


Cursed Totem: I hate creatures, and I hate creatures that produce mana. It stops pinging from those damn Lavamancers as well...

Sacred Ground: Seems like a weird pick, but Bw Disruption has been a problem for me...

Honden of Cleansing Fire: Tech so I won't die to Tomb...


EE/Keg: It kills Vials. That's like propably the oly reason why I have these in here.

[outsideangel]

Nether Void....ooooh, that's hot old school tech. Though it pretty much shuts us down too, so I dunno. Traditionally, decks have dropped a threat and then Void, using Void to prevent the opposition from recovering. Void would obviously be really good after a Braids. If we can break it, and make Void less symmetrical, it'll be a powerful tool.

@ Lego Army Man: Black makes for a better Goblins matchup. How? Game 1, tutors for Moat, E.Plague, NoSB is considerably better than Wrath of God. Goblins can recover from a Wrath pretty quickly, but game 1, they have to try and ping you to death with Moat down, and have no way of winning with a Plague + NoSB. Game 2, well, you still have Moat, but also bring in 3 additional E. Plagues, for a total of 8 ways to get a Plague down (4 Plagues, 3 Tutors, 1 NoSB)

In the Gro matchup, I do think the mono-white version of Stax performs better, because of Trinisphere, Wrath, and more Chalices/Suppression Fields. Perish in the sideboard helps, and Haunting Echoes is really good, but not enough. What Braidstax really, really needs right now is an artifact/enchantment Gro hoser. I've actually been giving some serious thought to Ensnaring Bridge, as their guys are pretty big, and we can usually have our hands down to 0-2 cards by the time they reach threshold. Bridge would comepletely negate their attacks, and we could sac it to our own Braids/Smokestack when we are ready to win. As a bonus, it's also good against Reanimator. I'm testing it right now, and may end up switching one copy of Ghostly Prison for a Bridge, and including some numer of copies in my sideboard.

Not that it matters, but our mirror match is better. We have more of the cards that really matter, fewer of the cards that don't, and Enlightented Tutor gives us access to powerful sideboard cards like Sacred Ground (which Anti_American and I run anyway for Pikula.dec) and Aura of Silence.

@Anti_American: I also run a single copy of Sacred Ground sideboard. I suppose Totem is okay, but I usually find that, as most mana-producing creatures have a big fat 1 in their toughness slot, NoSB is enough to deal with them, and has plenty of other uses as well. I also don't see much point in running Null Rod, Damping Matrix, and Cursed Totem. If you're running the Rod and Totem, you shouldn't need Damping Matrix. I also don't really like the Honden, as lifegain is typically mediocre on its own, and I can't really come up with a situation where I'd want to tutor for Honden instead of something else. I think Powder Keg is better than Engineered Explosives if you choose to run it, but if all you're worried about is Vial, then Pithing Needle is most definitely better. You want the 4th Chalice and 4th Plague in your board for Gro and Goblins, respectively.

[Lego]

You're searching for way to beat Gro? How about the same way that Angel Stax does? 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Trinisphere is a good start, and Tangle Wire slows them down a lot. Suppression Field is the win. Crucible/Wasteland is hot too. I don't know why it's hard to find ways to beat them, just about every single card in the Angel Stax variant is good against Gro.

[Citrus-God]

@Anti_American: I also run a single copy of Sacred Ground sideboard. I suppose Totem is okay, but I usually find that, as most mana-producing creatures have a big fat 1 in their toughness slot, NoSB is enough to deal with them, and has plenty of other uses as well. I also don't see much point in running Null Rod, Damping Matrix, and Cursed Totem. If you're running the Rod and Totem, you shouldn't need Damping Matrix. I also don't really like the Honden, as lifegain is typically mediocre on its own, and I can't really come up with a situation where I'd want to tutor for Honden instead of something else. I think Powder Keg is better than Engineered Explosives if you choose to run it, but if all you're worried about is Vial, then Pithing Needle is most definitely better. You want the 4th Chalice and 4th Plague in your board for Gro and Goblins, respectively.

4 Chalices... I guess siding out Tutors aren't that bad. Null Rod and Totem should be enough since it can shut down mana. Well, umm Bridge seems like a strong card against Gro, but isn't Moat enough? I guess not with all the Mages running around.

[Lego]

Moat doesn't shut down the finisher in either Gro deck, so it's suboptimal.

[CynicalSquirrel]

The new black Leyline could be a valuable tool for stopping Gro. It can come down turn 0 and be uncounterable, and unlike Planar Void and other cards it doesn't shut down Crucible either. I think it's definitely worth considering once Guildpact is released.

[Lego]

I'd say it is a possible baord card that I would only play as a 4-of (not seeing it in your opening hand makes it a poor card), but the question is whether it is game breaking enough to warrant 4 sideboard slots, and a mulligan or two to get it. I'd probably say yes, but then again, Threshold should be your best matchup if the deck is built properly.

[outsideangel]

Suppression Field is actually not as devastating against Gro as people seem to think. Sure, it's good, but consider:

Gro plays at most around 10 Fetchlands. About 8 is standard. To be really effective, they need to keep a hand with 2 Fetchlands, or Field needs to come down first turn on the play. Any smart Gro player will play out their fetchlands or basics first, and with only a couple basics in the deck, they're most likely to drop a fetchland first turn. To keep them off of 2 mana, you'd need to drop Field first turn, which requires a mox, two land, and the field, and be playing first.

This doesn't mean that Suppression Field isn't good, as it can often buy you one or more free turns, when they have to spend their mana to pop a fetchland. It's also good if you can follow it up with a Wasteland. However, Suppression Field is hardly the end-all be-all of the Gro matchup, is weaker than Chalice, Trinisphere, or Crucible + Wasteland/Stack/Braids, and definitely won't win you the match on its own.

Ensnaring Bridge stops both Mystic Enforcer and Fledgling Dragon, doesn't cost colored mana, and costs 1 less than Moat, making it better in the face of Daze.

I'd like to include Trinisphere in this deck, definitely, but I have trouble finding room. Maybe it's time to consider losing the crutch that is Vindicate? Vindicate's been really good to me, and pulled me out of some tight situations, but I can't shake the feeling that this deck shouldn't need it. What do you guys think? If we worked in 3 Trinispheres, it'd make the deck better at going turbo-lock. What do we remove?

[Lego]

I'm not trying to say that Suppression Field is better than Chalice, Trinisphere, Crucible/Waste, or Tangle Wire, I'm simply saying it's hellagood.

You forgot the instances when they keep a one land hand (which I will do a lot with a couple of Serum Visions when playing that deck) that is only a fetchland on the draw. I'll almost always keep a hand of Fetch, Serum Vision, Serum Visions, Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, Force, or anything moderately close to that. In that case, you've just won the game with that Suppression Field. And yes, this has happened to me more than once.

And I would pay 1W to remove 8 lands from my opponent's deck any day, I don't know about you.

[outsideangel]

Even if they keep a one-land hand, you still have to have a hand with 2 lands, a Mox Diamond, and a Suppression Field, and be playing first.
24/60, 23/59, 4/58, 4/57, 1/2
or (rounded to 5 places)
.4 x .38983 x .06896 x .07017 x.5
equals roughly .000377. Of course, your chances are somewhat better than that, seeing as how you get to draw 3 extra cards, but still, that's not a very high number, not enough to rely on. This is similar to the whole 1st-turn Trinisphere deal. Sure, it's awesome, and it can happen, it just won't very often.

Again, don't mistake this for me saying Suppression Field isn't good. It is, most definitely. In fact, waaaay back when, I was one of the very few people to advocate Suppression Field's inclusion in Angel Stax. People thought I was crazy because I cut Powder Keg and Rishadan Port to run it. Just don't count on it to completelly win you games with any regularity. Suppression Field, in most situations, slows them down, and does so extraordinarily well, until you combine it with another lock piece, like Smokestack.

Also, when you topdeck Suppression Field after Gro has already dropped 3 lands, it sucks pretty hardcore.

[Machinus]

Even if they keep a one-land hand, you still have to have a hand with 2 lands, a Mox Diamond, and a Suppression Field, and be playing first.
24/60, 23/59, 4/58, 4/57, 1/2
or (rounded to 5 places)
.4 x .38983 x .06896 x .07017 x.5
equals roughly .000377. Of course, your chances are somewhat better than that, seeing as how you get to draw 3 extra cards, but still, that's not a very high number, not enough to rely on. This is similar to the whole 1st-turn Trinisphere deal. Sure, it's awesome, and it can happen, it just won't very often.

This math is terrible. Please don't make up probabilistic arguments if you aren't familiar with the mathematics.

Suppression Field can manascrew your opponent, but it is mostly there to slow them down. Eight-fetchland decks have to struggle a lot more to generate tempo with a Field out. As a bonus, Field basically stops most activated ability strategies, like Salvagers, Tog, Mongrel, Ravager, Time Vault, etc., and significantly slows down strong cards like AEther Vial. Field is in the deck because it generally slows down the opponent, and also occasionally wins the game.

[Lego]

That's the thing though, you don't need it first turn, against any deck. Against Gro first turn it will sometimes just win you the game. Against other things it will buy you enough time to set up a better lock. I was just saying that you have so many good plays against Gro, one of them being Suppression Field, that the matchup should be way in your favor. If I expect any Stax, I simply don't play Thresh, that's it.

Although I'm playing it this weekend, and boarding Energy Flux :wink: Hope I get to 3 mana :-D Maybe Kataki is better.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I question whether Stax decks really have what it takes to Top 8 in tourneys. I say this because I have played many matches online and won game 1 then using my sideboard been able to stretch G2 out into a hour long ordeal without playing slow even with a deck that should have been handed its ass by stax. Also I've had game 1 itself stretch to over an hour when I refused to concede even though I had no chance of winning (he finally killed me with 3 cards left in my library). As well as the many times I've won the game on the back of a 1/1 creature and the 14 or so turn clock (ancient tombage). Simply put this deck is sooooo slow I feel it oftens screws itself out of wins, and seems to almost rely at times on the opponent scooping when times get tough (especially game 2 after a loss and god forbid you go to game 3 I don't know many opponents that are going to scoop it up when they could just keep playing and draw you out).

[Lego]

I've had a problem going to time once, and it was a Solidarity deck, and he only did it so that he wouldn't get the 1-0 loss. He stalled the game, not me.

I find that 4 Exalted Angel is just plenty for win conditions, the chances of you not drawing one are astronomically low. The first 5-10 turns are used to lock down the game, that's where you win or lose. After you've locked down the game, just wait until you draw your win, wait until it's sufficiently protected, and win.

I'm fine with playing a deck that 1-0 wins every time, because it does 1-0 Win, all the time. I've T8ed several local tournaments with this deck because it simply wins against Gro, has great game against Goblins, and murders most combo. Play it a bunch until you know how to mulligan, and what pieces to play when against which decks, and you'll be fine.

Oh yeah, and play Angel Stax instead :wink: What matchups have you been having problems with?

[dontbiteitholmes]

No I'm saying I was playing against Stax with a deck that should have gotten whipped by it (Enchantress and he had MD fields). Then I beat him G1 and we played G2 and neither one of us stalled just through the course of normal game descidions (which were a lot of hard ones and made frequently using massive time) we took wayyy over an hour for G2. I also see this being a problem if anyone runs this in a major tourney, stalling is particulary hard to spot especially in a deck which opens many complex options and I wouldn't be surprised either way if a stalling call worked for or against you. Not to mention if you won G1 people would be real quick to call a judge over to watch for stalling which could be a bitch depending on the situation and the judge.

[Bane of the Living]

Thats not really true after a while.

I've played almost every deck archtype in legacy extensively enough to know how the deck works. I'm not braggin I just love this format, and I've played mostly standard and extended for a while so that makes me know alot of newer decks very well already.

And the good news..?

You'll find once you learn the ins and outs of the deck your playing VERY well, you'll play it amazingly better. Don't tell me you've never seen a REALLY good affinity player right? The guy that goes 8-0? It's not always the deck. It's the player. There is alot of player depth in this deck, so much infact, that it feels like it just fish bowls to someone not familiar with it. I think about the 50th game with this deck is when I realized what needs to come down in what order and what to hold back against so many decks.

I think of playing this deck kind of like Simon Says :shock:

Anywho..
This deck will naturally play better quicker games when you know what to do. You need to think of alot of puzzle questions in each card as well.

What do I set chalice to, what do I tap down with tangle wire. Could I play smokestack now?

When you can figure those things out better you'll know how to play quicker games. I've noticed a lot of people that "out play" me are people that quickly dish out their threats swiftly and professionally. It greats opposition where you don't feel you can make slow choices against him.

-People that dont know how to play against stax can crumble to it.-

Learn to play this deck quickly and it will rack you the wins!
Sorry for the long drool post/article.

[Lego]

I've got to agree wholeheartedly with Bane on this one. If you sit down and test 100 different games against 100 different decks, your matches won't be taking anywhere near an hour anymore. Some options are easy, like when you open up Plains, Plains, Wasteland, Mox Diamond, Chalice of the Void, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds against Gro, you keep it, and your first few plays are already spelled out for you. Other times it gets harder, but you'll figure it out, and you'll just be able to look at the board, think about what has already happened, and know when to drop that Tangle Wire, when the Stack needs to go to 2, and when it's time to sacrifice your Stack at 2.

Play it a lot, until it becomes second nature and you can play it in your sleep. You won't have any more time issues :)

[Citrus-God]

Ditto, the deck takes heavy practice. It's all about decisions and options. The deck plays like Uba Stax minus the draw engine. You have to decide how your going to play your lock components. Like...

"hmm... I'm going first versus Gro, what do I do, play Defense Grid first, or Chalice for 1?"

Any one of those can seriously benefit you if you know what your doing, but the same time, you have to think whats more important.

It's also when to play WoG, and how are you going tap him out so you get a chance to do something.

[lolosoon]

First, sorry for necroing this "quite 2 years" dead thread.

I've played and enjoyed Stax for a while now (straight Armaggeddon Stax with 2 angels MD) but, even if the build is solid, I wanted things to be a bit spiced up 'cause I'm getting slowly bored with it.

Don't misunderstand me, the deck is great, but a bit too narrow-minded. Play Chalice//Trinisphere to slow things while controlling opp's threats with Prisons, Magus and Geddons, bla bla bla...

Well, you all know the deck...

I was wondering if a splash, along with a toolbox could revive the ol' flame for the deck, without lowering too much its consistency vs Threshold, Goblin and Storm-based Decks.

8 anti-aggro cards (Magi and Prisons) vs Combo, and 8 anti-combo cards (Chalices and 3Spheres) are 8 dead cards vs the wrong archetype. The tool box could not help you find the right answer faster, but at least, dead cards wouldn't fill your hand uselessly.

The En.Tutor helps having a turn 1 play without relying on Moxes and/or 2mana lands (even if Mox, Tomb, Tutoring for Chalice@1 is enjoyable).

Sure the Manabase will be weakened a bit, but it's already quite weak and the Crucibles are a good help.

For now, that's what I pack in :

// Mana 29
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstone of Trokair
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
4 Mishra Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Plains

// Creatures 3
3 Exalted Angel

// Spells 18
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Vindicate

// Toolbox : 10

So, it leaves ou with 10 slots which have to contain the bombs vs current Metagame.

The options are the following :
Moat
Ghostly Prison
Chalice of the Void
Engineered Plague
Humility (Leaving Mishra as your lone win con)
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Engineered Explosives
Trinisphere
Oblivion's Ring
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Suppression Field
The Abyss
Winter Orb
Planar Void
Null Rod
Tormod's Crypt
Aura of Silence
Seal of Cleansing
Seal of Doom
Artifact Lands
...


So, what would be your MD/SB choice among those cards ? What could be added ?!

Moreover, are Braids or Tombstalker card to be included in a Stax Build ? Braids add the Stax effect count, Tombstalker is a game-ender than can be easily played after a successful Geddon...


Thanks in advance for your hints and tips.

Regards,
Soon.