[Deck] PyroMENTOR Ascension

[strom]

Hey guys!

Lately I have been trying to toss Monastery Mentor in a lot of different decks. It all started with the ovbious MiraclesMentor, then EsperMentor, followed by DeathbladeMentor. All had one in common: Mentor was the powerhouse. It can turn a game around real quick. All you have to do is Keep playing your normal blue-game of cantripping and ocasionally digging through time.

Then I stumbled across the Grixis-Control list featuring Pyromancer Ascension that made a fantastic finish at GP Lille.
To be honest I did not even know that card existed, but I was eager to try it out.
There were two things I didnt like regarding the GRIXIS-shell:
1) Yes, Young Pyromancer only costs 2 but its token oftentimes fail to deliver being mere 1/1 vanilla creatures.
2) Grixis doesn't have access to White, therefore no access to Swords to Plowshares, therefore oftentimes problems in handling creatures that don't die to Lightning Bolt.

So my idea was born: PyroMENTOR Ascension.

Let's start with the list:

4 Monastery Mentor
2 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Thought Scour
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dig through Time
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard (subject to change, but something along these lines:)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Null Rod
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroclasm
1 Disenchant
1 Dack Fayden


Explanation of card choices:

Mentor:
see above

Pyromancer Ascension:
In my testing this card was absolutely nuts. The deck is designed to find this card quickly and also to get it active asap. That is why I am running as many instant and sorceries as possible at least as a three-of (see also the SB). An active Ascension turns any cantrip into card advantage. You get 6 damage for R, draw the 4 best cards from 14 with Dig, draw 2 cards for Zero and look at your opponents hand with Probe and so on. Broken things are going to happen...

Countersuite:
FoW should be obvious. Daze is the next best free counterspell. You will tap yourself out by casting cantrips, Ascension and Bolt/Swords in the early game so you can't afford to keep up mana for counterspells. Daze is great in protecting a turn 2 Ascension or turn 3 Mentor or an early DTT.

Thought Scour:
It not only fuels Dig Through Time but also Pyromancer's Ascension and Cabal Therapy. Moreover it's an instant, which means you might be able to squeeze out another Mentor token (or prowess trigger) more easily. Deck space is limited however and Thought Scour is a weak card in terms of Card selection. So we only play 3.

4 DTT:
Yes, I believe that 4 is the correct number here. We are playing 15 Cantrips including Thought Scour. You can abuse DTT as early as turns 2-3.
And we desperately need card selection in order to get away with the greedy manabase, in finding win conditions or to get Pyromacer's Ascension active.
You might think that the Delve mechanic and Pyromancer's Ascension don't work alongside. In my testings so far this wasn't a problem at all. You can delve your lands first and any cantrip you have more than one copy in your graveyard.

4 Therapy:
In my opinion it is totally worth to splash black just for this card. It attacks another angle of your opponents deck. It is also the only way of getting rid of some problematic cards. You can use it proactively and get rid of their Abrupt Decay or their Combo pieces. Ist not only an insane card with Gitaxian Probe but also with an active Ascension as you will hit at least once. And as in Grixis you will be able to flashback Therapy for free, if you have a Mentor in play.

2 Swords to Plowshares:
As mentioned above, this card will handle bigger threats that won't die to Lightning Bolt. I feel like running 6 removal spells in total seems accurate. Swords solves a problem that Grixis can only fix with subpar cards.

Manabase:
The manabase is the biggest weakness of the deck. It's a 4-C deck and therefore we are forced to play a greedy manabase.
16-17 lands do work in Grixis Control and in my testing the same is true for this deck. Every land fetches for blue so you can cantrip into more land if need be. My playstyle usually goes like this: First turn fetch for U-Sea (if you have Therapy in Hand), second turn go for Volcanic. I usually don't fetch for a Tundra unless I am going to cast a Mentor with it. That way you can hit your opponent by surprise, as he likely put you on Grixis before.


Feel free to post any comments, critics or suggestions.

[Mystical_Jackass]

It looks like you have tons of draw and good protection, the thing that scares me is that your entire win hinges on 4 creatures in the deck and getting them to stick, imo that'd be way too risky I'd want at least 4x YP's or Bob or something for consistency. Even being able to flashback Therapy comes down to landing a Mentor. And Ascension seems like it's gotta' be all or nothing... 2 of them, I understand multiples are bad, but then it's like you "kind of want to draw it but not really", either you play it immediately or just cut it because you definitely don't want to be dropping it on turn 4 for example.

The last thing I'd worry about is Chalice 1, if someone drops a turn 1 Chalice you're royally screwed if it gets through.

The deck having Daze/FoW/etc seems like it's built for some Delver/YP/Mongoose Tempo play, but it's actually the opposite. Your not sticking any 1-drop and gaining any early advantage with Daze, it actually just slows your ability to get Mentor out and start digging for your pieces having to stop your opponent. If your not trying to get a Delver or SDT to stick turn 1 and not trying to race I see no reason running Daze.

[jrsthethird]

I've been playing with a Grixis Control/Ascension list for a couple weeks now and it is certainly powerful. The Ascension has been a little inconsistent for me, and especially games 2/3 I felt like I wanted more options from the sideboard and boarded them out, so I don't think I gave it the best shot. When it was active though, it was a BEAST.

Mentor is a great card. I think going 4 colors is a bit of a stretch though. You need R/B for the Ascencion/cantrip engine combo, and you already get YP as a bonus for that. So really you're looking for a Grixis or Jeskai build then.

Grixis pros:
Cabal Therapy
Big dumb Delve guys

Jeskai pros:
STP
Mentor
Lightning Helix
Boros Charm

So I do think you're onto something running white. Delve guys are a little anti-synergistic when you're trying to turn on the Ascension, which I found out playing a Grixis Control/Ascension list. With 1/2 Murderous Cuts and a Tasigur in addition to the 4 Digs, I usually didn't have a graveyard to build up counters if I drew Ascension late. So that pretty much leaves Cabal Therapy. It's such a boss card, and the synergy with Probe and Pyromancer is just dumb, but white does give you some awesome options that cutting it might be viable.

STP/Mentor is obvious. Lightning Helix is fringe playable, maybe a meta choice. Boros Charm though is really strong. It's a finisher on its own if you have Ascension active; 8 to the face for RW. It also synergizes reaslly well with Mentor/Monk tokens, giving 1/2 of them double strike. Lastly, it serves as another protection spell against either a damage/destruction-based sweeper spell (Rough or Electrickery, or perhaps Deed/Pulse etc.), and protects the Ascension too. It even "counters" Abrupt Decay! Looking back, I think Boros Charm is an auto-include for at least 2 copies. 4 seems a bit much, but 3 could work too. The combination of STP/Mentor/Charm might be good enough to justify cutting black/Therapies.

If you want Therapy, I think we could pass for 1 maindeck Sea and maybe 2 copies in the Board, just because it's so good. Maybe bring in a Swamp too if we really want it against Wasteland decks, but that might be a stretch. Keeping the maindeck as a Jeskai base though would be much more consistent and I'm actually very interested in testing that.

Finally, with all the graveyard stuff going on, I really think we need a couple Snapcasters in here. Abbot of Keral Keep seems pretty good in a shell like this too.

[kombatkiwi]

Also, the modal nature of Boros Charm means that if Ascension is on, if we're casting it for indesructibility, we still get to hit them for 4 in the face.


Rules nitpick:

700.2f A copy of a modal spell or ability copies the mode(s) chosen for it. The controller of the copy can’t choose a different mode. (See rule 706.10.)

706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.

Example: A player casts Fork, targeting an Emerald Charm. Fork reads, “Copy target instant or sorcery spell, except that the copy is red. You may choose new targets for the copy.” Emerald Charm is a green instant that reads, “Choose one — Untap target permanent; or destroy target non-Aura enchantment; or target creature loses flying until end of turn.” When the Fork resolves, it puts a copy of the Emerald Charm on the stack except the copy is red, not green. The copy has the same mode that was chosen for the original Emerald Charm. It does not necessarily have the same target, but only because Fork allows choosing of new targets.

[strom]

It looks like you have tons of draw and good protection, the thing that scares me is that your entire win hinges on 4 creatures in the deck and getting them to stick, imo that'd be way too risky I'd want at least 4x YP's or Bob or something for consistency. Even being able to flashback Therapy comes down to landing a Mentor.

The Mentormiracles list piloted by Claudio (B88 on this forum) to win the last Legacy GP had 4 Mentor (+ 2 Snapcaster) as the only win conditions.
At first I was sceptical, too. But Mentor is so strong that you can rely only on it as your only real win condition since the tokens also have prowess. That is the big difference to Young Pyromancer and that's why Mentor is such a beating.
It is also possible to win with Ascension and Lightning Bolt. At least it could do the last 6 Points of damage occasionally.


And Ascension seems like it's gotta' be all or nothing... 2 of them, I understand multiples are bad, but then it's like you "kind of want to draw it but not really", either you play it immediately or just cut it because you definitely don't want to be dropping it on turn 4 for example.

That's a valid point. I have already thought about upping the count to 3 copies.


The last thing I'd worry about is Chalice 1, if someone drops a turn 1 Chalice you're royally screwed if it gets through.

First of all I guess that's the risk you have to take when you want to play the blue-game in Legacy.
But I disagree on your statement to some extent. On the play we have 12 potential outs to beat chalice (FoW, Daze,Therapy). On the draw its only the Forces. Even if they resolve an early Chalice set to 1 we still can lay down Ascension, get it active and we are back in the game. Or we can drop a Mentor - it's triggers will still resolve.


The deck having Daze/FoW/etc seems like it's built for some Delver/YP/Mongoose Tempo play, but it's actually the opposite. Your not sticking any 1-drop and gaining any early advantage with Daze, it actually just slows your ability to get Mentor out and start digging for your pieces having to stop your opponent. If your not trying to get a Delver or SDT to stick turn 1 and not trying to race I see no reason running Daze

I have explained why I think Daze is the next best counterspell in my opening post. I use Daze a little more reactive than a tempo deck would do. It helps to resolve our key spells and is great with Mentor. I had a great game where I was able to resolve Mentor and my opponent played Abrupt Decay on it. I double-Dazed the Decay to gain two Monk Tokens and won two turns after. Sometimes it is as simple as that.


@jrsthethird:
Thanks for your input on Ascension.

I don't see the necessity to run Boros Charm as it is somewhat clunky at the cost of RW and none of its modes are essential to execute our gameplan.
However, I would be interested how your testings with the JEskai-shell of the Ascension list went.
For now I will stick with my idea and play the greedy four color Version as Therapy is just to good to pass up, imo. The same is true for Mentor.

[Kagehisa]

I don't know how valuable 1 Quiet Speculation can be in this deck but you can give it a try. It would tutor for 3 Therapy to make even more monks, feed your graveyard for delve or Ascension.

With Ascension on the battlefield and a Monastery Master, you can make Ascension active with Speculation.

It can also let you use a toolbox of cheap spells with flashback as a sideboard option.

It could take one cantrip slot.

[jrsthethird]

Rules nitpick:

700.2f A copy of a modal spell or ability copies the mode(s) chosen for it. The controller of the copy can’t choose a different mode. (See rule 706.10.)

Whoops, thanks. Edited that out.

[civet five]

The Mentormiracles list piloted by Claudio (B88 on this forum) to win the last Legacy GP had 4 Mentor (+ 2 Snapcaster) as the only win conditions.

The biggest difference there is the presence of CounterTop to shutdown removal other than Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay could be dodged by playing around or even Terminus'ing your own duder, allowing the long attrition game if absolutley necessary. This deck doesn't have that luxury.

[strom]

Hi.
After some more testing and musing about the deck, I have brought up an updated list.
Recent changes to the one in my opening post are:

Maindeck:
- 3 Thought Scour
- 1 DTT
+ 1 Pyromancer Ascension
+ 3 Preordain

Thoughtscour was ok but not that great. It always felt bad to mill one of my win conditions or even Lightning Bolt. Furthermore it draws a random card, so no increase in card quality for us. I replaced the Thought Scours with Preordain. I think this quite the improvement: It helps you to actually find your win conditions or the right mana or that extra copy of a spell in your grave to activate Ascension. It makes the deck much more consistent. However, without Thought Scour running 4 DTT feels a bit too ambitious, so three is the new number here.
I’m still on the fence wether 2 or 3 is the right number for Ascension. I want one early on but drawing a second copy feels akward most of the time.

Changes to the Sideboard:
- 1 Dack Fayden
- 2 Null Rod
+2 Disenchant
+1 Swords to Plowshares

The Sideboard is much more streamlined now. With the recent changes, I am running the most important cards as a three of for maximum synergy with Pyromancer Ascension.
The Null Rod were mainly to combat Miracles but the matchup should be fair enough without those. They made room for more Disenchant to fight Counterbalance, Chalice, Rest in Peace and Equipment. Dack Fayden was in the board for testing purposes anyway and therefore got the axe.
Another Swords to Plowshares in the side can come in to fight bigger creatures or faster decks. (e.g. Infect).

[TheFlyinGutchman]

This is definitely an interesting thought experiment. I feel like casting mentor is going to be really hard between your dazes and opposing wastelands. A jeskai version could run the full 4 copies of ascension and maybe faithless looting to pitch unneeded extras and to help fuel ascension counters. I may do some testing with that.