Ghost Dad

[lavafrogg]

Did anyone ever put in any legwork for a legacy Ghost Dad list?

I can't find anything online except for a few posts over in salvation.

[kombatkiwi]

I think the closest playable equivalent of Ghost Dad is Sam Black's zombardment deck. Nothing about the original Standard strategy seems remotely competitive in Legacy.

[lavafrogg]

I think the closest playable equivalent of Ghost Dad is Sam Black's zombardment deck. Nothing about the original Standard strategy seems remotely competitive in Legacy.

But what would you do if you were going to try? It is an interesting shell that uses very specific/odd cards to work.

[Bosque]

Nic Fit...? I guess?

It doesn't really feel like a legacy card. It's quite expensive, yet not quite broken enough.

[lavafrogg]

Nic Fit...? I guess?

It doesn't really feel like a legacy card. It's quite expensive, yet not quite broken enough.

Not just the ghost council, the entire deck.

[kombatkiwi]

Looking at the 'original' Ben Goodman list from 2006

4 Dark Confidant
3 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Plagued Rusalka
4 Tallowisp
4 Thief of Hope
4 Ghost Council of Orzhova
2 Teysa, Orzhov Scion

6 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Tomb of Urami

1 Indomitable Will
3 Pillory of the Sleepless
1 Strands of Undeath
4 Shining Shoal
4 Sickening Shoal

In a legacy environment this would clearly get rolled by all varieties of combo. You could do what Death and Taxes does and play Thalias except an important part of the deck was being able to cast Shoals for 0 mana (and play auras), so there's a bit of tension with that plan. Discard would perhaps work but I'm not sure how low you can bring the Spirit count before the Tallowisp engine loses too much consistency. I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably worth looking at?

Then you have the problem of Ghost Council, who in an environment where 4/4 was fairly large and damage went on the stack was a very strong creature. In legacy if you want to cast a 4 mana spell without accelerants you're looking at JTMS power-level, and now Ghost Bad trades with Germs, gets walled by Goyf and Flown over by Delver. You could tick vial up to 4 and put it in that way but then you don't get the Tallowisp trigger and you still probably want to find some new synergistic thing to sacrifice because Thief of Hope is pretty shit.

And at the end of the day the payoff for all of these spirits is meant to be Tallowisp and there really hasn't been any significant upgrade to Pillory of the Sleepless printed since this deck was a thing. You have Dead Weight and some other new tricks which are marginal upgrades over what existed previously (which is pretty important considering how bad Pillory is against Pyromancer and Mentor) but it might not be enough. Pillories are still decent to put on Delvers/Goyfs/Anglers but it's important to remember that Oblivion Ring is hardly a maindeckable card in legacy. Again this is still only a midrange tool as against combo there is no aura with enchant creature that is going to help.

I think to make this deck work in legacy you need manadorks to support the midrange plan in a format with Wastelands and Daze, and you need to cut the bad spirits/arcane for actual good cards, but then the Tallowisp triggers become so minor that you might as well be playing a more stock version of Junk/Bant - Stoneforge Mystic is essentially a better Tallowisp that triggers by itself so why would you bother trying to be cute with a different 1W creature.

Patrick Chapin:

In reality, Ghost Dad was a gimmick. It had surprise value in a tournament where people were not expecting Spiritcraft, Shoals, and auras. It took many players a few weeks to figure out how to play against it. It was even a reasonable metagame (albeit for a metagame that quickly vanished).

It was not, however, good. Its cards are notoriously underpowered, it is slow, it's weak versus all the best decks, and it is easy to play around once you know how.

[kinda]

My budget standard UG flyers deck had trouble against it...not sure if omnitell will have any issues though...

[lavafrogg]

Looking at the 'original' Ben Goodman list from 2006

4 Dark Confidant
3 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Plagued Rusalka
4 Tallowisp
4 Thief of Hope
4 Ghost Council of Orzhova
2 Teysa, Orzhov Scion

6 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Tomb of Urami

1 Indomitable Will
3 Pillory of the Sleepless
1 Strands of Undeath
4 Shining Shoal
4 Sickening Shoal

In a legacy environment this would clearly get rolled by all varieties of combo. You could do what Death and Taxes does and play Thalias except an important part of the deck was being able to cast Shoals for 0 mana (and play auras), so there's a bit of tension with that plan. Discard would perhaps work but I'm not sure how low you can bring the Spirit count before the Tallowisp engine loses too much consistency. I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably worth looking at?

Then you have the problem of Ghost Council, who in an environment where 4/4 was fairly large and damage went on the stack was a very strong creature. In legacy if you want to cast a 4 mana spell without accelerants you're looking at JTMS power-level, and now Ghost Bad trades with Germs, gets walled by Goyf and Flown over by Delver. You could tick vial up to 4 and put it in that way but then you don't get the Tallowisp trigger and you still probably want to find some new synergistic thing to sacrifice because Thief of Hope is pretty shit.

And at the end of the day the payoff for all of these spirits is meant to be Tallowisp and there really hasn't been any significant upgrade to Pillory of the Sleepless printed since this deck was a thing. You have Dead Weight and some other new tricks which are marginal upgrades over what existed previously (which is pretty important considering how bad Pillory is against Pyromancer and Mentor) but it might not be enough. Pillories are still decent to put on Delvers/Goyfs/Anglers but it's important to remember that Oblivion Ring is hardly a maindeckable card in legacy. Again this is still only a midrange tool as against combo there is no aura with enchant creature that is going to help.

I think to make this deck work in legacy you need manadorks to support the midrange plan in a format with Wastelands and Daze, and you need to cut the bad spirits/arcane for actual good cards, but then the Tallowisp triggers become so minor that you might as well be playing a more stock version of Junk/Bant - Stoneforge Mystic is essentially a better Tallowisp that triggers by itself so why would you bother trying to be cute with a different 1W creature.

Patrick Chapin:

Sweet answer, I pretty much just learned about the deck(I don't play much standard) and it seems like a really cool idea especially with the twin shoals. Wizards has just never decided to make auras competitive.

[ESG]

Wizards has just never decided to make auras competitive.

Isn't auras the whole point of the Bogle deck in Modern? Granted, that's not a Tier 1 deck.

Rancor was real back in the pre-Legacy days, but, yeah, auras are usually a way worse deal than equipment. Bestow/enchantment creatures was WOTC's latest attempts to make auras matter. The last time auras got Legacy attention was when Geist of Saint Traft was new and Blouses had 15 minutes of fame (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/932).

[lavafrogg]

Isn't auras the whole point of the Bogle deck in Modern? Granted, that's not a Tier 1 deck.

Rancor was real back in the pre-Legacy days, but, yeah, auras are usually a way worse deal than equipment. Bestow/enchantment creatures was WOTC's latest attempts to make auras matter. The last time auras got Legacy attention was when Geist of Saint Traft was new and Blouses had 15 minutes of fame (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/932).

Wizards pretty much replaced auras with equipment, seeing how equipment do everything you would want and aura to do anyways. I wish they just made a few disruption auras for non-interactive decks. pariah is pretty good but still only affects damage. I imagine one day they will make auras overpowered, as a trade of for the fragility of the card type.