Legacy Lantern

[bruizar]

So, this will probably never be as powerful as the modern deck given that Brainstorm and Dig Through Time are everywhere, but I still wanted to see how far Lantern control can be converted to legacy. Here's my take on it. Maybe you guys want to give your take on it, and perhaps provide your own lists as many variations are possible.


3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins

3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller’s Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Field of Dreams
3 Counterbalance
3 Punishing Fire
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Snare



- Counterbalance is there to serve as a surrogate Chalice of the Void for one. Since you can't run Chalice of the Void in this deck, Counterbalance is the next best alternative given the density of one drops and the selection between Sensei's Divining Top, Ghoulcaller's Bell and Codex Shredder.
- This deck should have a decent matchup against miracles because Lantern of Insight can shuffle away the revealed miracle card

The rest is self explanatory I think.

Known issues with my list:
- Jace costs 4 mana, that's a lot. I can dig for lands via milling, but 4 is still a stretch. But you can't play this deck and not use Jace I think.
- Chalice of the Void hurts
- Engineered Explosives is a nightmare. Need more needles in the side?

[oarsman]

4 mana is a lot, but zur's weirding is effectively two of yours cards in one.

[Noctalor]

1) Mill boost DDT, play it and try to get a plan to beat it
2) Omnitell looks like a disaster, you have some rebs but DDT + BS + a average turn 4 kill is pretty bad, maybe discard work better than countermagic here?
3) SDT is insane against you, you need a good plan against it (imho 2 needles are not enough)
4) Get some artifact hate in your SB, given that null rod is played and is autoloss
5) Why no Transmute artifact, Ancient tomb, tezzeret AoB (way better than JTMS imho), and i guess that thopters may work too and enlightned tutor should be tested
6) Are you able to deal with BG decks? Decay seems problematic in delver shells

[Mr. Safety]

I think Liliana would be really strong. I've debated lantern in a pox shell because px loses to a lot of topdecks. Lantern fixes that. I don't think you should go for pox but Liliana seems strong. I also like thoughtseize here, it seems like the best cheap disruption without force available. Do you feel that you can afford to play punishing fire? Its mana intensive and you play few lands. I personally would explore liliana over that. Pyroclasm seems strong in here too.

Edit: obviously only if you feel comfortable splashing black. By the way, what are the trops for? Sideboard (yet to be determined?)

[lavafrogg]

I think predict would have a home here, as would thoughtscour to mill away unwanted cards for you or the opponent.

[bruizar]

@MR Safety:
I initially had black in the list but I really wanted Punishing Fire and Field of Dreams. Perhaps Blue/Black/Green is still a better route for Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil and Thoughtseize though.

The green splash is still sort of undecided but its for the sideboard. At least Ancient Grudge should be in the side to combat chalice of the void among other things.




1) Mill boost DDT, play it and try to get a plan to beat it

Will try


2) Omnitell looks like a disaster, you have some rebs but DDT + BS + a average turn 4 kill is pretty bad, maybe discard work better than countermagic here?

Proactive discard is better indeed. That would mean I'd have to give up punishing fire and probably trade them for abrupt decays. My plan was to sideboard at least 3 extra rebs for the omnitell match up. I'm willing to sideboard more even as the meta is very blue.


3) SDT is insane against you, you need a good plan against it (imho 2 needles are not enough)
3 needles?


4) Get some artifact hate in your SB, given that null rod is played and is autoloss
Ancient Grudge should be in the side. Perhaps nature's claim or krosan grip to deal with random sylvan libraries / counterbalance too


5) Why no Transmute artifact, Ancient tomb, tezzeret AoB (way better than JTMS imho), and i guess that thopters may work too and enlightned tutor should be tested

The converted manacost of the artifacts is really low, and there is enough redundancy in the deck I think. I considered Transmute and Thopter Foundry but decided I'd rather use the space for Counterbalance. Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors I also considered, but if I want to land Counterbalance, it's not that great and Ancient Tomb is a liability against delver decks that use bolts. It may still be correct though, I was really tempted to run it. Not sure about Tezz vs Jace. Some modern lists play Tezz but Jace is banned there. Jace does exactly what the deck wants to do though. Needs to be tested.

[/QUOTE]6) Are you able to deal with BG decks? Decay seems problematic in delver shells[/QUOTE]
I think sideboard Spellskite would be desirable for those match ups. Not sure yet.

--

I think a BUG list and a RUG list look most viable to me. I'm not sure what an UW list could be besides Swords to Plowshares and Rest in Piece, but I'm open for suggestions.

[bruizar]

Here's a black version




3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Ancient Tomb

3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller’s Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Liliana of the Veil / Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Field of Dreams
3 Counterbalance
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek



Pyxis of Pandemonium might be much more relevant for the legacy format so Ghoulcaller's Bell might need to get replaced. This would help against Dig Through Time, Snapcaster Mage and Life from the Loam

Another route, and this may well be wrong, is to disrupt lands drawn instead of spells, since there are fewer lands than spells in most decks.





3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland

3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller’s Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Field of Dreams
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Encroach



The idea here is to use Encroach to make the opponent's keep shaky, and use a subsequent Wasteland, Sinkhole or Smallpox to clear him of mana. Then proceed to topdeck mode with Lanterns. This will obviously be very bad against RG lands, but it might work against other decks.

[rufus]

I think it's a bit of a misnomer, and it should really be called Ensnaring Bridge control. The goal is to blank most of the opponent's deck with some bomb permanent, and then clip the rest with the lantern + millstone approach. I'd wonder about a package like:


Peacekeeper
Ensnaring Bridge

Trinisphere
Ethersworn Cannonist

Enlightened Tutor
Lantern of Insight


A really silly approach would be some kind of Psychic Surgery + Soldier of Fortune game plan.

[bruizar]

Text
I've also been thinking about the white blue options and I think maindeck Meddling Mage is really strong as it gives you a way to stop Brainstorm game one, as well as a threat revealed by Lantern, or Show and Tell. Sideboard you get access to Rest in Peace and if needed you can side in Swords to Plowshares.

[jrsthethird]

I like where you're going with Pyxis of Pandemonium, and the Psychic Surgery mention is cool too. Exiling is definitely better in Legacy than just mill. If there's a decent cheap Ingest card in BFZ, it might fit here.

I've always liked the cards Solfatara/Turf Wound/Moonhold and wished there was some way that this red tempo could be playable. The Encroach/Sinkhole idea plays in that space and my inner Johnny loves it.

[Darkenslight]

You could also go Mono-black for a heavy 8-Rack theme, with Surgicals, Extirpates, Murderous Cuts and others.

[rufus]

I've also been thinking about the white blue options and I think maindeck Meddling Mage is really strong as it gives you a way to stop Brainstorm game one, as well as a threat revealed by Lantern, or Show and Tell. Sideboard you get access to Rest in Peace and if needed you can side in Swords to Plowshares.

The 'information leverage' is certainly intriguing. There are some decent 'name a card' cards like Meddling Mage,Cabal Therapy,Runed Halo,Predict,Phyrexian Revoker,and Pithing Needle.

[bruizar]

A few more cards I want to mention (Almost certainly subpar but this is exploration phase).

Ancient Stirrings - used in the modern list
Ghirapur Aether Grid - used in the modern list
Slag Fiend - can grow very big, especially but I like this more in a baubles type list
Goblin Welder - Good sideboard card against Krosan Grips and such
Grim Lavamancer or Cursed Scroll - Mops up utility creatures


I like the idea of an UBW list combining discard and meddling mage. I wish we had fodder for Cabal Therapy. Running Mishra's Factory / Inkmoth Nexus might be a little too much trouble to activate it.

[Finn]

It looks to me like Sensei's Divining Top would be hard for this deck to deal with.


The rest is self explanatory I think.This is not the case. I am intrigued by this pile, but I have no experience with Modern. Can you explain it?

[bruizar]

The general idea of modern lantern is to get a lantern (or here field of dreams) in play and a pyxis of pandemonium(ghoul callers bell) or codex shredder in play to fateseal your opponents turns early. Ensnaring bridge is there to survive while you try to strip/outlive the opponents threats. You try to extablish perfect information with probes and extractions, because you work from perfect information this is how you can lock someone out with... A pile of crap essentially.

Here is a recent modern video piloted by ali aintrazi:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/12210323?t=5h39m33s

Here is an article by him:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=12768

--

Btw, The more i thought of the encroach/land destruction plan for the legacy version, the more i like it. Giving your opponent zero mana should give you game against every deck.

[rufus]

It looks to me like Sensei's Divining Top would be hard for this deck to deal with....

Pithing Needles and Revokers are decent against it. The whole 'cantrip cartel' is also a big challenge though.

[lyracian]

It looks to me like Sensei's Divining Top would be hard for this deck to deal with.

This is not the case. I am intrigued by this pile, but I have no experience with Modern. Can you explain it?
You play Ensnaring Bridge to hide behind and Lantern to see the opponents top card. Then mill anything that can get past bridge with Bell/Shredder.
See it in action here - http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/12210323?t=5h39m33s

[bruizar]

Here's a meddling mage list. It has the most redundancy of any of the lists because peacekeeper serves as ensnaring bridge 5/7, field of dreams serves as lantern 5-6, and you have 8 mill effects. Meddling mage and thoughtseize are there to address early threats. Council's judgment over detention sphere because you can get council's judgment back with codex shredder. Sheltered valley is an important land because it helps you stabilize and gives you 1 or 2 more turns against burn.

3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
3 flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
1 Sheltered Valley
2 other lands

3 Mox Opal

4 Meddling Mage
3 Peacekeeper
1 Council's Judgment
4 thoughtseize

4 Lantern of Insight
2 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Gitaxian Probe

[Redkid43]

the immediate problem i see with Legacy Lantern is Chalice of the Void. In modern, it is not really played maindeck and is more of a niche sideboard card that comes up every so often in a few different decks. That said, there is a good chunk of legacy decks that play it main and on turn 1 rather commonly--this deck has really no way to get around it. All of it's lock pieces are 1 CMC and a turn 1 Chalice is game over right away.

[MGB]

the immediate problem i see with Legacy Lantern is Chalice of the Void. In modern, it is not really played maindeck and is more of a niche sideboard card that comes up every so often in a few different decks. That said, there is a good chunk of legacy decks that play it main and on turn 1 rather commonly--this deck has really no way to get around it. All of it's lock pieces are 1 CMC and a turn 1 Chalice is game over right away.

I wouldn't use Chalice as a reason to ever discount a deck in any format.

The decks that play Chalice are, by definition, Tier 2 and fringe decks that are highly inconsistent. You really don't have to worry about matching up vs. Chalice decks at the top tables in any Legacy tournament. This is coming from a person who only ever plays Chalice decks in Legacy.

The real reason something like this might not be viable is simply the speed of the Delver decks and the presence of Sensei's Divining Top.

[bruizar]

I'm not too worried about sensei's divining top. Main deck Pithing Needle answers it. SDT is played in miracles. Entreat the Angels is useless against Lantern of Insight. That means you have to survive Jace and Monastery Mentor. Pithing Needle on Jace and Ensnaring Bridge will win that match up, even if Entreat does happen. Counterbalance is the only real threat i care about.

How to survive against delver of secrets is a different story though... Ideally you want Ghirapur Aether Grid in play against delver but that will never resolve. The Sheltered Valley is there to extend the clock of aggressive decks, but it's not nearly enough. Delver is hyper efficient. I'd sideboard in Caltrops against Young Pyromancer and Unflipped Delver. That or illness in the ranks maybe. Perhaps Desert too because it can't be countered, and hope that Sun Droplets will be good enough to live long enough for Ensnaring Bridge and some Pyxis action.

This is why i wanted to run punishing fire and counterbalance, with perhaps sb forked bolt/electrickery, but the esper version looks stronger against other games. Counterbalance in this deck with so many one drops and a way to control your top card via millrocks is essentially a one sided chalice for one.

[bruizar]

I think I solved the decks biggest problem against aggressive delver and burn decks. Energy field isn't triggered by pixis of Pandemonium and codex shredder doesnt have to mill yourself so you can sustain the lock. Codex Shredder can return Energy Field if it dies in the late game.

3 mox opal
4 gitaxian probe
2 field of dreams
4 lantern of insight
4 pyxis of pandemonium
4 codex shredder
4 pithing needle
3 counterbalance
4 ensnaring bridge
4 energy field
1 surgical extraction
3 back to basics
2 flex (vedalken shackles?)
18 islands


I'm contemplating cutting the Mox Opals if I'm not running a splash color. I think I'd rather have Sensei's Divining Tops there or counters.

[lyracian]

I think I solved the decks biggest problem against aggressive delver and burn decks. Energy field isn't triggered by pixis of Pandemonium and codex shredder doesnt have to mill yourself so you can sustain the lock. Codex Shredder can return Energy Field if it dies in the late game.

I'm contemplating cutting the Mox Opals if I'm not running a splash color. I think I'd rather have Sensei's Divining Tops there or counters.
Interesting. You could throw in one Rest in Peace for the lock with Energy Field. I wonder if Leyline of Sanctity would be worth trying? Bridge is great in modern as most decks use creatures but a bit weak against Storm/Omni when they kill with spells.
Also might Copy Artifact be better than Field of Dreams?

[Darkenslight]

Interesting. You could throw in one Rest in Peace for the lock with Energy Field. I wonder if Leyline of Sanctity would be worth trying? Bridge is great in modern as most decks use creatures but a bit weak against Storm/Omni when they kill with spells.
Also might Copy Artifact be better than Field of Dreams?

Going UW with Artificer's Intuition and Wheel of Sun and Moon over RIP could be pretty damned viable. I'd also, somewhat surprisingly, consider plays Orbs of Warding as a possible alternative to Leyline, given that it reduces the clocks of most decks considerably.

Hrm...food for thought...

[rufus]

Energy field has me wondering about the possibilities of Solitary Confinement, but I don't think there are compelling cards to combine with it in a deck like this.

[bruizar]

Interesting. You could throw in one Rest in Peace for the lock with Energy Field. I wonder if Leyline of Sanctity would be worth trying? Bridge is great in modern as most decks use creatures but a bit weak against Storm/Omni when they kill with spells.
Also might Copy Artifact be better than Field of Dreams?

How would you use Copy Artifact?

Field of Dreams is there to increase redundancy. Ali Aintrazi and many of the minds working on the modern lantern list are adding an extra lens of clarity to get more control over the top of library. Field of Dreams is so much better than lens of clarity.

I have thought about RiP especially since you are then in meddling mage colors. Right now there are still alot of paths we can walk but I'm getting closer to a core list that i like. I think energy field definitely belongs in the core list unless you are going for a wildly different variation. Energy field stabilizes against the super aggresive decks including lightning bolts whereas ensnaring bridge helps against emrakul's annihalator trigger although im pretty sure thats not enough to win against omnitell (1: u need to resolve bridge or show it, 2 they can cunning wish for an alternate kill).

I expect jund type lists to be difficult due to abrupt decay, miracles is dangerous because of SDT and counterbalance @ 1, and omnitell looks unwinnable :-). Most other fair decks should be fine.

[square_two]

Going UW with Artificer's Intuition and Wheel of Sun and Moon over RIP could be pretty damned viable. I'd also, somewhat surprisingly, consider plays Orbs of Warding as a possible alternative to Leyline, given that it reduces the clocks of most decks considerably.

Hrm...food for thought...

Helm of Obedience could come out of the side if you are relying on RiP...it is also a semi top deck filter itself, capable of grabbing something juicy that is revealed off the top.

Also, does Helm + Wheel of Sun and Moon lead to a draw for the game, if both players cannot interrupt it? I can't remember the ruling on causing infinite loops.

[rufus]

Also, does Helm + Wheel of Sun and Moon lead to a draw for the game, if both players cannot interrupt it? I can't remember the ruling on causing infinite loops.

Yes, it ties the game.

[bruizar]

Short update: these are the core cards I am not willing to compromise on thus far.


4 gitaxian probe
2 field of dreams
4 lantern of insight
4 pyxis of pandemonium
3 codex shredder
3 pithing needle
4 energy field
That's 24 cards. Plenty of design space left.

The following cards are omitted from the preliminary core list even though they exist in the modern list. They may well be re-added, I'm just not 100% sure about them yet:
Ensnaring Bridge
Surgical Extraction
Mox Opal

[Darkenslight]

Short update: these are the core cards I am not willing to compromise on thus far.

[/CARDS]
That's 24 cards. Plenty of design space left.

The following cards are omitted from the preliminary core list even though they exist in the modern list. They may well be re-added, I'm just not 100% sure about them yet:
Ensnaring Bridge
Surgical Extraction
Mox Opal

...Would you consider playing Artificer's Intuition over Field of Dreams?

[bruizar]

...Would you consider playing Artificer's Intuition over Field of Dreams?

I wouldn't run it over fiels of dreams because its a 3 mana 2 card investment but i would consider it in addition to field of dreams. If I would run AI, i would add elixir of immortality in the sideboard and run darkdepths, thespian stage, expedition map and academy ruins because it gives you a fast way to seal the game as well as inevitability.

Even without AI this line of play opens with a map:
Expedition map into ruins
Activate ruins, replay map into thespian stage
Activate ruins, replay map into dark depths
Use codex shredder the combo is disrupted

[Redkid43]

Despite my illinformed diatribe about this deck in legacy, I actually really like the developments here.

Could Transmute Artifact be a good consideration to snag other pieces of control?

I think going Mono U is correct as well, but given how good RiP/Energy Field is a small
White splash could be appealing.

[bruizar]

Some goldfishing wish physical cards done. Thus far I like Transmute Artifact over A.I.. It's faster and the redundancy is so high that most of the time I don't need any recurring tutoring. Getting multiple Pithing Needles is great, but I feel like T.A. is just a more direct, cheaper way to get silver bullets. I'm currently on the expedition map plan and I notice that Expedition Map is my main target after establishing the lock.

[Redkid43]

Trasmuting our Bridge to get something post Marit Lage and attacking for the win seems like a good idea. Plus we can recur all of our artifacts with it via Academy Ruins.

That seems nice. But the issue becomes Energy Field--which the deck should play as part of it's core.

[bruizar]

I'm currently testing a 4/2 Energy Field Ensnaring Bridge split. Again, mostly for redundancy but with the added benefit of having a Transmutable defense against creatures too. However, transmuting ensnaring bridge is not as good as you think because it costs 4 mana in this deck. I'm cutting Mox Opals for sure because you really don't need more than 2 lands in this deck to work. A single island is enough to play but you want to be able to play out your hand quickly so a second source is nice. The only reason why you'd want the third source is for Ensnaring Bridge and Academy Ruins. Why Energy Field works particularly well is because this deck goes hellbent so fast. If you have zero cards in hand, you don't have to worry about thoughtseize, cabal therapy or Inquisition of Kozilek removing your energy field.

Transmute Artifact removing Energy Field shouldn't matter as you can get Ensnaring Bridge instead. I' still trying to figure out what makes Ensnaring Bridge better. Thus far my reasons are:

1) Blocks Emrakul trigger
2) Planeswalkers (Should the deck use them) cannot be attacked. They can be attacked with Energy Field in play so Energy Field will be removed by killing the walker.
3) It's Transmutable
4) I have 7th edition foils :p
5) More difficult to remove

List of cards I still want to try:
Vendillion Clique (Blue 'discard' and clock)
True Name Nemesis (clock that won't end up in the graveyard)
Vedalken Shackles (Perhaps redundant)
Counterbalance/SDT (Thus far only theory craft)
Back to Basics (Very good against the cloudpost manabase, and a good mono U prison card)

[Redkid43]

We should really look into white.

Gives us access to 8 tutors between Transmute and Enlightened Tutor--which can get us any piece of control. Rest in Peace which can lock with Energy Field. It also gives us a tutor able kill by possibly playing a Helm.

Adding white makes us not play Back to Basics, and opens us up to Wasteland.

Perhaps we can play something like Ghost Quarter/Wasteland+Crucible?

I think maybe playing artifact lands helps with Mox Opal, which we should consider.

[Darkenslight]

We should really look into white.

Gives us access to 8 tutors between Transmute and Enlightened Tutor--which can get us any piece of control. Rest in Peace which can lock with Energy Field. It also gives us a tutor able kill by possibly playing a Helm.

Adding white makes us not play Back to Basics, and opens us up to Wasteland.

Perhaps we can play something like Ghost Quarter/Wasteland+Crucible?

I think maybe playing artifact lands helps with Mox Opal, which we should consider.

An all-basic UW list would be amazing, especially with the rumored BfZ duals.

[Redkid43]

An all-basic UW list would be amazing, especially with the rumored BfZ duals.

Well considering the rumors were right...

[bruizar]

Just a draft, feel free to improve/critique.

4 gitaxian probe
2 field of dreams
4 lantern of insight
4 pyxis of pandemonium
4 codex shredder
4 pithing needle
4 energy field
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Detention Sphere (Oblivion Ring doesn’t die to Pyroblast, so it may be better; also easier on the manabase. Council shouldn't be used with Energy Field around)
2 Flexslot - Swords to Plowshares..?

18 Basics

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
X True-Name Nemesis
X Containment Priest
X Ethersworn Canonist
X Flusterstorm

[shadowgripper]

Hi, I'm that one guy who took Lantern to 12-2-1 at GP Charlotte. I've been recently looking into making this legacy viable since there are less-and-less Modern tournaments I'm getting to enter. As a big fan of prison style decks, I thought I'd give this a shot. I did a LOT of researching on card choices but have not done any play testing with it as of yet (Don't physically own Field of Dreams heh). I'll discuss my thoughts and why I believe Lantern works as a deck.

Most importantly, why does this deck work in general? I built and fine-tuned the original Modern lantern list with three main goals to create a deck concept I felt was impossible hard to beat as long as I made sure each goal could be met at the highest consistency

Goal 1) Prevent the opponent from ever drawing effective/threatening cards.
Goal 2) Prevent their creatures from hurting you.
Goal 3) Take away their best card/answer from the opening hand with discard spells.

The deck would not work if Goal #1 couldn't be applied as blind draws would eventually and statistically lead to your demise; the opponent will draw an answer to the board state. Secondly, Goal #2 is very important as most decks in modern (and a good number in Legacy too) try to kill you with creatures. If you delete all creatures from your opponent's deck then how likely are they to win the game? Finally, there is a good chance your opponent mulligans into sideboard or effective cards g2/g3, keeping them in their hand for the right moment and there's nothing you can do about it. Yes you can run countermagic, but that loses to opposing countermagic and clogs up your hand. Instead, we utilize Goal #3 to ensure they don't have answers to what we are doing.

Here is my current list, sideboard subject to change.

4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Opal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
1 Nihil Spellbomb

3 Field of Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Surgical Extraction

4 Polluted Delta
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Sphinx's Tutelage
2 Darkblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Trinisphere
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm

The biggest update is we get to run Lanterns 5-7. Remember, this is the most powerful thing the deck can do. We not only receive perfect information on both players' draws but we can determine what the opponent draws AS WELL AS our self. Fixing our own draws in one of the biggest strong points that makes the deck so consistent. With extra lanterns and swapping Ancient Stirrings for Brainstorm, I don't have a need for green in the deck anymore. Adjusting mana base accordingly, we add in artifact lands to allow for Mox Opal to do extra work and Lotus Petals for quicker starts and help avoid Daze. One thing I fear porting to Legacy is how hard it will be to stick a lantern effect or bridge, but having quicker mana and discard spells should allow us to push through. Once lantern hits we are set to take over the game. I can't imagine playing without Academy Ruins. This card "prevents" hard countermagic effects and gives us inevitability.

Doing a quick skim through of the current thread, I don't believe playing without discard spells is a wise decision. Over the course of many games, you will likely lose more g2/g3 than expect due to opponent deciding how to mulligan and finding answers to your threats. I also do not like Energy Field, as milling yourself with shredder is such a strong advantage. Energy Field wants the deck to play less spells as well such as discard or Abrupt Decay. I don't feel comfortable taking decay out as it's a catch-all solution to unknowns game 1 and especially g2/g3 when sideboard cards are brought in.

Remember the three goals. We want to build a deck that consistently meets these goals to statistically give us higher win-percentages. Conditional cards that meet these goals are less good, as it's very hard to play magic with this deck. You want to prevent both players from playing magic. That is the lock.

[Redkid43]

Given Emrakul's presence in the top decks, wouldn't playing Pyxis over Ghoulcaller's Bell be a better option?

[bruizar]

I'll post the short discussion we had on salvation just to answer some questions you may have:


Me:


Shadowgripper:
Ah sorry for that, didn't insta-recognize. The energy field route is my current build but I'm not saying that this is optimal since you pretty much lose black discard. However, Pyxis of Pandemonium I'm pretty sure is correct for legacy due to:
Dig Through Time (every delver deck, omnitell and miracles is running multiples; you don't want to feed into it)
Turbo-eldrazi (needle on Eye of Ugin)
Lands (life from the loam, needle on Thespian Stage)
Snapcaster Mage (getting rid of lightning bolt saves you 6 life, snap into bolt makes stabilizing harder)
Ancient Grudge out of the sideboard
Reanimator (get rid of their bombs instead of helping them fill the graveyard)
Deathrite Shaman (bridge is nice, but the lose 2 life still works so you want to starve the fuel for DRS)
And its obvious synergy with energy field should you go that path

Very nice list though, I'm extremely curious how it performs and I'm happy you are testing a different build from me because that means we get to know which one is optimal sooner. There are so many variations possible. Keep me posted on developments and test results.


Shadowgripper


To note on your points without getting too far off topic.

Pyxis I don't believe is a good way to control Dig. It doesn't actually DO anything to change the board state and make dig less likely to be played.
Eldrazi - You do not care if they reshuffle with eldrazi, they will eventually lose as you will eventually find Surgical/Nihil. If you needle Eye + Top and prevent them from drawing Ulamog how else do they win?
Lands - They don't kill you with Thespian Stage... you run bridge. You dont care about loam. You just needle Wasteland and they run out of things to do aside from Punishing Fire. This is resolved with eventual Nihil Spellbomb. They will deck faster than them pinging you for 1 a turn.
Snapcaster is highly played in modern. You side in 1 cage helps but usually snap is not a threat... they dont draw snapcaster and you remove it from their hand with discard.
How many Legacy decks play grudge? For those that do, you have cages.
Why would you aggressively mill Reanimator, you can choose not to mill them. You shouldnt be milling blindly. My list also has insane coverage for graveyard strategies.
We run 3 needle and 2 decay for deathrite. It's not that fast of a clock.
Pyxis synergizing with Energy Field yes, but Energy Field restricts our deck building requirements in a direction that does not meet Lantern Prison's 3 main goals.

[shadowgripper]

Given Emrakul's presence in the top decks, wouldn't playing Pyxis over Ghoulcaller's Bell be a better option?

Why do you care if you mill emrakul? If they reshuffle their deck it does not get them out of the lock. They still cannot win. Remember our goal is not to play magic and win the game, our goal is to prevent them from winning the game. Emrakul doesn't threaten us at all.

Eventually we will find a spellbomb or surgical and prevent the "I'll never be mill ever" by exiling their deck and grave. We cannot deck ourselves because of Academy Ruins.

[bruizar]

Why do you care if you mill emrakul? If they reshuffle their deck it does not get them out of the lock. They still cannot win. Remember our goal is not to play magic and win the game, our goal is to prevent them from winning the game. Emrakul doesn't threaten us at all.

Eventually we will find a spellbomb or surgical and prevent the "I'll never be mill ever" by exiling their deck and grave. We cannot deck ourselves because of Academy Ruins.

I've played prison decks for years by now and the main enemy I have is the clock. How is your experience? How do you usually win? Do you find your opponents playing the game out when they are 1-0 ahead? As an example take RG lands. The recent success of RG lands is mostly because Dark Depths can close the game out quickly. Lands was good before, but it had the same issues closing out games.

[shadowgripper]

I've played prison decks for years by now and the main enemy I have is the clock. How is your experience? How do you usually win? Do you find your opponents playing the game out when they are 1-0 ahead? As an example take RG lands. The recent success of RG lands is mostly because Dark Depths can close the game out quickly. Lands was good before, but it had the same issues closing out games.

The trick with the Lantern prison deck is the power of the prison lock itself. You completely prevent the opponent from playing the game AND prevent any out they could possibly draw. They cannot play anymore. With that said, if your opponent simply draws a card and passes, never casting another spell or attacking with creatures, you win... right? Nothing is happening. So then why do you need to continue to play magic if they have stopped? This is how I am able to close out games so quickly without a win-condition. I also do not play magic and just sit there playing draw-go with my opponent until they concede or deck.

This is the hard-lock: Lantern + Bridge + 3 or more mill rocks. Clean up the board state with Pithing Needle / discard spells and the hard-lock will do the rest. Let's do some counting: with 3 mill rocks how many runners (or threats) does your opponent need on top of his deck all in-a-row in order to draw out of the lock? They need seven... yes SEVEN. That's so unlikely it's just not going to happen. When they end their turn you can mill 3 of their threats, untap, mill 3 more. Of those 6 runners milled they still need another runner to follow in order to win. And even if they manage to hit that 7th runner, you can always sac Lantern to shuffle giving you an extra out (just in case).

Okay, so we understand how to create a hard-lock and prevent the opponent from playing. Nothing they do matters anymore, and nothing we do will change that. So stop playing magic yourself. Don't do anything. Just play draw-go and you'll win the game naturally because they will always run out of cards first (you play that fancy land remember).

Your time involved in the game each turn should be limited to 5-10 seconds. Simply mill their threats at the end of their turn, untap, draw, reveal top card, play drawn card, pass. Done in 5 seconds. They faster you can at physically move your hand around the table and touching your cards, the more time you save. Plan where you cards are on the table so that you can mechanically tap/untap them with haste. The more you play the deck the faster you get at performing these actions; the real catch is encouraging your opponent to play faster as well since they can't do anything and probably hate you. They could concede but for some reason a lot of people don't, expecting to draw 7 threats in a row...

[MGB]

The way you talk about this deck you make it sound as if it's unbeatable.

In the hands of a skilled pilot, what is the win % of this deck? Over 80%? It sounds as if it's very hard to break out of this lock if properly piloted. How do you ever lose with this deck?

[Phelps-san]

The way you talk about this deck you make it sound as if it's unbeatable.

In the hands of a skilled pilot, what is the win % of this deck? Over 80%? It sounds as if it's very hard to break out of this lock if properly piloted. How do you ever lose with this deck?

I don't have experience with the Legacy build, but one of my friends run this in Modern, and I've played against him extensively.

You win by killing him before the lock is established, either by having a very fast clock, or by disrupting him with discard, counters or artifact hate so he can't assemble the full lock. If a skilled Lantern player finishes the "Lantern + Bridge + 3 or more mill rocks" setup shadowgripper mentioned then it's up to "can I break the lock or kill him with what I have in hand now?". If you can't, it's better to simply concede - the lock is a lot more solid then it seems, and if you don't realize this and try to "get lucky" with a draw you'll end up losing G1 after a long time and losing the match 0-1 after timing out on G2.

[shadowgripper]

I don't have any experience or statistics for the Legacy Lantern, as I didn't think it existed yet. As for Modern, my win percentage in testing and tourney performance has been 80%+ in games. Burn is rough g1 and Zoo can be tricky if they draw well. Lantern deck loses if it draws poorly and the opponent draws well. Normally it's hard for the lantern to fail in the hands of a skilled pilot because of how consistently fast it can build together the lock.

And for the record, I've never won a match because I won game 1 and didn't win game 2. I've completed every game I've started and only had a draw once. The draw was at GP Charlotte before people knew what this deck was, and opponent was on home-brew Burning Tree Shaman while I was having to deal with Sun Droplet life gain over and over.

It's really easy to pilot this deck quickly and efficiently. It's up to the opponent's if they want to end on time or not. EDIT: And by easy I mean, to not take long playing cards or passing your turn. Decisions can be hard at times but once you get a feel for things, it all falls into place.

[bruizar]

From my legacy experience it is very very easy to assemble the combo, especially with Field of Dreams serving as extra lanterns.

Some issues that you may or may not be aware of in legacy:

Delver is fast and filled with permission. Gurmag Angler ignores Abrupt Decay. Gurmag Angler is played very frequently in Delver decks. Ghoulcaller's Bell fuels the zombie fish. Young Pyromancer is a crazy fast clock and turn one delver can win on its own. If you can't resolve Ensnaring Bridge quickly, you're in trouble. Academy Ruins won't help you because it takes 2 extra turns. Even if you do land it, any cantrips or lightning bolts that you may not have been able to answer can turn into snapcaster/bolts for the finish. You're up against Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Daze to let your bridge resolve. This is why I like Energy Field. It's cheaper and you run them in addition to ensnaring bridge given you a similar consistency boost as the 8 mill rocks or 7 lanterns, but losing Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and the catch all Abrupt Decay hurts.

RG Lands frequently makes a turn 2 Marit Lage via Manabond or Exploration; Life from the Loam messes the lantern combo up with Shredder and Codex and discard doesn't work against them. It's all in on Ensnaring Bridge or Surgical/Needle on Dark Depths/Thespian Stage. Plenty of action against it, but there is the potential to be dead before you blink.

Elves starts with a grip full of beat down that can also combo out on turn 2 / turn 3. That means you are all in on Ensnaring Bridge even if you lock the opponent out. If they start with Green Sun's Zenith, they can get Reclamation Sage to address bridge (at least once). If they have Wirewood Symbiote and Green Sun's Zenith/Reclamation Sage, they can reclamation Sage every turn. Needle on Symbiote helps here, sideboard Grafdigger's Cage (Natural Order and GSZ) and Abrupt Decay in response to Wirewood activation. Discard is very good here too.

Burn runs Price of Progress and Sulfuric Vortex, so it is a faster version than the modern version. Burn is already a troublesome matchup in modern so I expect it to be one in legacy too.

OmniTell plays the cantrip cartel. It's difficult to control the top with Dig Through Time, Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain and Gitaxian Probe. Discard is probably at its very best in this matchup since it needs to assemble the combo.

Miracles plays counterbalance and top. You need to resolve your combo before they do. Abrupt Decay is the only card that can really get you out of this. Needle of SDT (preferably before Counterbalance can come down) is super important.

From this assessment I'd say Energy Field shuts down burn, delver and RG lands immediately, whereas Abrupt Decay + black discard perform best against Miracles and Omnitell, arguably the two dominant decks together with Delver. Not sure which one is favored against elves.

I will have to do several tests with multicolored energy field lists to see if I need to stay in monoblue to make energy field work or not. It would be great to have access to proper discard spells.




4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Opal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Lotus Petal
1 Nihil Spellbomb

3 Field of Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Surgical Extraction

4 Polluted Delta
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Sphinx's Tutelage
2 Darkblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Trinisphere
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm


I know the sideboard is subject to change, but what would be your sideboard plan against Delver and Burn? Also, what's the role of Sphinx's Tutelage. Against what would you bring that in? Also, I don't think you run enough fetch to justify the 4 Brainstorms. IMO the manabase needs some work if you're going for Brainstorm. I really like the artifact lands because it makes assembling the lock on turn one possible. It actually happened to me more often than I'd imagine.

[MGB]

I don't have any experience or statistics for the Legacy Lantern, as I didn't think it existed yet. As for Modern, my win percentage in testing and tourney performance has been 80%+ in games. Burn is rough g1 and Zoo can be tricky if they draw well. Lantern deck loses if it draws poorly and the opponent draws well. Normally it's hard for the lantern to fail in the hands of a skilled pilot because of how consistently fast it can build together the lock.

And for the record, I've never won a match because I won game 1 and didn't win game 2. I've completed every game I've started and only had a draw once. The draw was at GP Charlotte before people knew what this deck was, and opponent was on home-brew Burning Tree Shaman while I was having to deal with Sun Droplet life gain over and over.

It's really easy to pilot this deck quickly and efficiently. It's up to the opponent's if they want to end on time or not. EDIT: And by easy I mean, to not take long playing cards or passing your turn. Decisions can be hard at times but once you get a feel for things, it all falls into place.

How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.

[jarvisyu]

How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.

12-2-1 at gp charlotte:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86383

[shadowgripper]

I know the sideboard is subject to change, but what would be your sideboard plan against Delver and Burn? Also, what's the role of Sphinx's Tutelage. Against what would you bring that in? Also, I don't think you run enough fetch to justify the 4 Brainstorms. IMO the manabase needs some work if you're going for Brainstorm. I really like the artifact lands because it makes assembling the lock on turn one possible. It actually happened to me more often than I'd imagine.

One of the problems of playing a brand new deck that wins by doing nothing is your opponent's may not see what you're up to and stall you out. I wanted the two Sphinx's Tutelage as a faster win con during testing period of this deck. It's likely they won't be needed.

As for Brainstorm, you have to look deeper. The deck has many synergies which are hard to figure out without actually playing it. Every mill rock synergizes with Brainstorm.


How did you not top-8 the GP with this deck?

I hope to see this on the next Modern Pro Tour so I can see just how efficient a deck it is. I don't really have much experience with Modern myself but if you say it has such a high win percentage, it should be definitely possible to Top-8 the next Modern Pro tour with this deck.

I lost two matches at the GP. One to GR Tron because I was in severe pain from a headache and shoulder tension. I couldn't concentrate and let him draw Ulamog instead of milling it, letting the reshuffle happen, then later killing him with Pyrite Spellbomb. I had needle on both Karn and Ostone so it actually wasn't possible for him to break out of the lock except for drawing Ulamog. Second loss was to Abzan CoCo combo, it was game 3 and he destroyed my bridge. My intention was to tap Opal and kill the lethal attacker with decay but for some reason I did not. I went to kill it during combat but could not because I did not have 3 artifacts in play. I suppose mistakes are bound to come up within 15rounds, it was the longest tournament I've played it and with probably the hardest deck to pilot. I could have won that game by getting bridge back then landing a Grafdigger's cage to prevent his options and deck from functioning.

I did not get any feature matches at GP Charlotte, but Ali did at the Charlotte Open a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ort2OCYe2a4

[FuggerNugget]

Since we are already experimenting with white and wanting a way to quickly end the game like Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths, how does trying Auriok Salvagers + Lion's Eye Diamond sound?

Not only does Salvagers allow us to recur Pyrite Spellbomb on its own, we can also get Lanterns, Bells, and Opals back to re-establish a broken lock.

[bruizar]

Okay, so here's my take on the list again. I would love to have Abrupt Decay in the deck against Counterbalance, but I don't know how to fit it in yet. The alternative answer could be a Repeal, but I don't really like it.

Discard 10
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique

Information 11
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Field of Dreams
4 Lantern of Insight

Millrocks 8
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
4 Codex Shredder

Protectors 11
6 Energy Field and Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
2 Black Eldrazi Enchantment if real

Mana Sources 21
4 Mox Opal
4 Darksteel Citadel
5 Swamp
7 Island
1 Academy Ruins


--

IF REAL, Not sure if new eldrazi enchantment is win more or not. It gets extra value out of Pyxis of Pandemonium.

[shadowgripper]

Took this to a weekly legacy event with 16 people. Lost to Elves round 1, won against Manaless Dredge, D&T, Omnitell other rounds. Score of 3-1.

Against Elves I simply played poorly as I kept a hand with Academy Ruins, Mox Opal, Bell, Field of Dreams, Thoughtseize, other and never drew a third artifact or land or cast spells. Round 2 I had Grafdigger's cage in play but only ever found 1 mill rock and he found 4 of his sideboard cards right off the bat. I need more Darkblast in the board (just dont own any).

Here's the list I played with:

4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Opal
3 Pithing Needle
1 Lotus Petal
1 Nihil Spellbomb

3 Field of Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction

4 Polluted Delta
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Duress
2 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Trinisphere
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Set Adrift
1 Flusterstorm

Overall I will likely swap the manabase and include Enlightened Tutor over Brainstorm/Infernal Tutor. The deck functions well except for lack of ability to find bridge quickly (no ancient stirrings like in modern), the tutors will find it very quickly. card disadvantage is not a problem for this deck, it merely wants to create a lock... not play magic.

The sideboard needs more removal, darkblast. Tutelage is coming out (wasnt planning on keep it in).

I'm going to continue to test this at events and make it a real deck. It does have potential, but needs a lot of refining. It took me a month to refine the modern list to create a consistent and powerful deck.

[Salacious]

Wand of Denial wants to say hi.
It's Lantern of Insight and a mill rock at the same time.
I'de run one Cursed Scroll.
Enlightened Tutor seems necessary.

Something like this i guess.

1Cursed Scroll
1Field of Dreams
3Wand of Denial
1Energy Field
4Ensnaring Bridge
4Enlightened Tutor
4Lantern of Insight
4Pyxis of Pandemonium
3Codex Shredder
3Thoughtseize
3Duress
3Inquisition of Kozilek
3Pithing Needle
2Welding Jar
4Mox Opal
4Glimmervoid
4Vault of Whispers
4Scrubland
2Underground Sea
3Polluted Delta

[bruizar]

Nice result.

Meanwhile im watching the modern gp. Lantern control in the finals.

Could you share with us specifically how the omnitell matchup went, and how Brainstorm was against you? Also very curious about your match against manaless dredge.

[bruizar]

Congratulations :)

[Amazingxkcd]

@shadowgripper

are you playing the shocklands because you dont have access to the duals?

[Julian23]

Money on MKM and drinks don't mix well....I actually ordered three Field of Dreams yesterday before they are going to skyrocket.

At least that's what I keep telling myself.

[MGB]

Yeah, so this deck and this guy are definitely the real deal.

I dont' see why this deck can't top8/win the Modern Pro Tour coming up and also win Legacy tournaments with a Legacy-tuned version of this list. It's really one of the best prison decks to ever be developed in Magic's history.

Zac, I hope you make it to GP: Seattle and then we can see how Lantern Prison fares in Legacy.

[JPoJohnson]

Yeah, so this deck and this guy are definitely the real deal.

I dont' see why this deck can't top8/win the Modern Pro Tour coming up and also win Legacy tournaments with a Legacy-tuned version of this list. It's really one of the best prison decks to ever be developed in Magic's history.

Zac, I hope you make it to GP: Seattle and then we can see how Lantern Prison fares in Legacy.

I see it struggling a great deal against combo decks.

[bruizar]

I see it struggling a great deal against combo decks.

Well, apparently he beat omnitell with his list. I dont think xombo decks are a problem at all. Decks that require assembling multiple cards have a lot of difficulties against discard and scry-control. I don't think reanimator has a favorable matchup over lantern, nor storm.

I think elves is a difficult matchup though. A glimpse hand can draw into extra fuel, a creature heavy hand can go beat sown, and gsz can get reclamation sage for ensnaring bridge.

[bruizar]

Still acquiring some missing cards to build this so I can get live testing going. Any developments from your sides?

[Fox]

I would suggest running Predict as it's one of the few draw 2 cards spells, given field of dreams/lanterns. It's also pretty good at disrupting top/counterbalance (and who doesn't love messin' with miracles?).

[sistinas]

Brainstorming possible cards:

Force of Will (early game)
Thoughtcast
Predict
Whirlpool Whelm
Temporal Spring
Set Adrift
Whisk Away
Time Ebb
Submerge
Vanishment
Memory Lapse
Terminus
Counterbalance/Top

[Echelon]

I was looking at this deck (the shadowgripper build) and it made me wonder - wouldn't this deck prefer to play Ponder over Brainstorm. It doesn't run all that many shuffle effects, so the getting rid of 2 cards you don't need is something that'll come up less often then one would want. Ponder offers more digging power for individual lock pieces. Or am I (quite possibly) missing something here?

[rufus]

Brainstorming possible cards:
...


I dare you to make the Orcish Spy/Soldier of Fortune or Elemental Augury version of the deck.

[jrsthethird]

Money on MKM and drinks don't mix well....I actually ordered three Field of Dreams yesterday before they are going to skyrocket.

At least that's what I keep telling myself.

TCG player mid is $15 now. One auction on ebay right now, the last ebay sale was $17 BIN for Italian. Good call, sir.


I was looking at this deck and it made me wonder - wouldn't this deck prefer to play Ponder over Brainstorm. It doesn't run all that many shuffle effects, so the getting rid of 2 cards you don't need is something that'll come up less often then one would want. Ponder offers more digging power for individual lock pieces. Or am I (quite possibly) missing something here?

Pyxis of Pandemonium and Ghoulcaller's Bell essentially "shuffle" them to the graveyard/exile. With Ponder you can only mill 1 or 2 cards away, but Brainstorm adds your whole hand to the possible cards you can mill away. Plus if we add W for Enlightened Tutor, then we're in Esper and will need sufficient fetchlands to support the manabase.

[Echelon]

Enlightened Tutor and selfmill are a bit of a nonbo, don't you agree..? You'll need more instant speed cantrips then Brainstorm to reliably play it.

Also, wouldn't Sensei's Divining Top fit this deck quite well? Stack the top 3 cards of your deck, mill unnecessary cards away together with your opponents. Seems like an easy way to filter out the cards you do want to draw.

And to add to bruizar's list of typical Legacy threats: Wasteland. I've done some goldfishing, but the manabase seems a bit fragile.

[Michael Keller]

Back before Legacy existed in "1.5," I tinkered with a Timesifter deck (played off Mana Drain mana) that used Soothsaying to manipulate draws. It also ran Field of Dreams - maybe I can try to find it somewhere buried in the forums...

[MGB]

Back before Legacy existed in "1.5," I tinkered with a Timesifter deck (played off Mana Drain mana) that used Soothsaying to manipulate draws. It also ran Field of Dreams - maybe I can try to find it somewhere buried in the forums...

That sounds incredibly cool.

In all my years of playing Magic I have to say I've not once thought of using "manipulate X top cards of deck" effects to "combo" with Timesifter. Sounds like it could even be pretty good.

[rufus]

Back before Legacy existed in "1.5," I tinkered with a Timesifter deck (played off Mana Drain mana) that used Soothsaying to manipulate draws. It also ran Field of Dreams - maybe I can try to find it somewhere buried in the forums...

These days you could combine that with clash cards like Hoarder's Greed and Woodland Guidance.

[Michael Keller]

These days you could combine that with clash cards like Hoarder's Greed and Woodland Guidance.

Consider what Soothsaying offers to this type of deck, though. You can shuffle your library repeatedly and manipulate the top cards of your library repeatedly for the cost of X. With fetch lands in full force these days, I'm surprised Soothsaying hasn't seen even more play.

[H]

Well, Soothsaying suffers from the fact that Diving Top exists and is essentially more powerful (can draw a card) and less mana-intensive. Top would also have a greater synergy with the deck, since it's an Artifact for Metalcraft on Mox Opal.

[rufus]

Well, Soothsaying suffers from the fact that Diving Top exists and is essentially more powerful (can draw a card) and less mana-intensive. Top would also have a greater synergy with the deck, since it's an Artifact for Metalcraft on Mox Opal.

And even without the top there's Scroll Rack.

[bruizar]

Enlightened Tutor and selfmill are a bit of a nonbo, don't you agree..? You'll need more instant speed cantrips then Brainstorm to reliably play it.

Also, wouldn't Sensei's Divining Top fit this deck quite well? Stack the top 3 cards of your deck, mill unnecessary cards away together with your opponents. Seems like an easy way to filter out the cards you do want to draw.

And to add to bruizar's list of typical Legacy threats: Wasteland. I've done some goldfishing, but the manabase seems a bit fragile.

Yeah, this is why I'm brewing a mono blue control shell with Vendilion Clique, Energy Field and counters. If that falls through, I'm going to add black for discard, creature removal and Duskmantle, House of Shadow so that null rod effects don't stop me from winning.

[jrsthethird]

Yeah, this is why I'm brewing a mono blue control shell with Vendilion Clique, Energy Field and counters. If that falls through, I'm going to add black for discard, creature removal and Duskmantle, House of Shadow so that null rod effects don't stop me from winning.

Did anyone suggest Back to Basics?

[bruizar]

Did anyone suggest Back to Basics?

I've thought about Back to Basics but I think I won't run it. If you are invalidating business spells, lands start becoming irrelevant quickly. You want the opponent to flood out by discarding business spells. Also constraining mana makes the deck less focused on what it is supposed to do. You end up trying to attack too many angles I think. I could be wrong, it might be good against turbo eldrazi and mud though.

[Zapp]

Has anyone tested with island sanctuary? Or maybe moat?

could be bridge 6+7?

Once we have lock do we really need to draw?

[Redkid43]

Island sanctuary plays really well with ensnaring bridge

[phonics]

As much as I want to play this, someone bought out all the field of dreams where I live and I aint paying 30$ ea for them.

[bruizar]

Has anyone tested with island sanctuary? Or maybe moat?

could be bridge 6+7?

Once we have lock do we really need to draw?

Island Sanctuary is/looks interesting and I can't provide anything other than theory craft here. I'm not sure how useful it is _before_ you hardlock someone out, and by that time you probably already drew into an ensnaring bridge. This deck wants to drop soft locks until the soft lock (check) turns into a hardlock (checkmate). I'm not sure at which point you could use Island Sanctuary other than as the final lock piece to enable the hardlock. That said, this deck is a little bit strange in that you often just mill your own top card away when you don't need it, so it's not like it's going to clutter up your hand too often. This just needs testing imo. Moat is a much more reliable card even though it's pretty slow. It you play black for discard (which may well be the only way to play this deck), this could be better than RiP+Field, but I'm still a huge proponent of Energy Field because it instantly wins against burn and delver; 2 notoriously difficult matches for prison decks.


As much as I want to play this, someone bought out all the field of dreams where I live and I aint paying 30$ ea for them.
The price is going up indeed. I bought a couple extra Field of Dreams myself and I'd suggest doing the same. Lantern is a completely new paradigm of prison decks. If crap like Hazezon Tamar and Adun Oakenshield costs €30.00-€50.00 and Invoke Prejudice is €85,00. I don't see why a key card for what may be an entirely new paradigm of prison decks should be €8. Zac is putting up 70%-90% win rates in modern and its in the deck's DNA to be almost impossible to hate out without dedicating 9+ sideboard cards to it. I've seen less competitive decks get ported to legacy successfully (Jund for instance).

I think what Zac did is teach everyone in the magic community that we may be looking at deck development in an outdated fashion and that the whole should indeed be greater than the sum of its parts. For Lantern, synergy is really more important than intrinsic strength.

That said, I'd suggest we focus the discussion on trying to come up with the best version of the deck.

[jrsthethird]

As much as I want to play this, someone bought out all the field of dreams where I live and I aint paying 30$ ea for them.

$30 was a steal.

http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/legends/field-of-dreams

[Barook]

Zac is putting up 70%-90% win rates in modern and its in the deck's DNA to be almost impossible to hate out without dedicating 9+ sideboard cards to it. I've seen less competitive decks get ported to legacy successfully (Jund for instance).
It may be damn good be damn good in Modern where library manipulation sucks, but I'm rather sceptical how it fares in Legacy, given the existence and wide spread of Brainstorm, SDT, and to a lesser extend, Ponder.

And don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the Modern version of the deck.

[bruizar]

It may be damn good be damn good in Modern where library manipulation sucks, but I'm rather sceptical how it fares in Legacy, given the existence and wide spread of Brainstorm, SDT, and to a lesser extend, Ponder.

And don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the Modern version of the deck.

I do agree with you fully that it has to proof that it can overcome the cantrip cartel, but Zac's first performance with the deck did beat Omnitell which I would have thought would be one of the worst matchups. I know it's only one game, but apparently running a deck full of cantrips can be defeated with this strategy. For my belief in the deck, the next stop is to defeat Miracles with consistency. If this deck can defeat Miracles or at least have a reasonable game against it, then I have no second thoughts about the tournament worthiness of lantern in legacy.

Sideboard considerations against miracles could be Goblin Welder (to force through artifacts through counterbalance), Extirpate (ditto split second shuffle), Krosan Grip (ditto, split second CB removal) or Jace the Mindsculptor (dodges counterbalance). I think that if you can Surgical/Extirpate Counterbalance, the rest of the match is easy. Pithing Needle will eventually deal with SDT, and a single bridge blanks both Mentor and Entreat the Angels. At that stage you need prison redundancies and try to prevent Council's Judgment from happening.

I think you are also overestimating Ponder. They get one fresh draw from it. I wouldn't want to be in that position. Brainstorm is more dangerous but still, at most they draw 3 useful cards but it is much more probable that they draw into fewer than that. Why?
* You know the top card and you are leaving that on top because it sucks. So that leaves 2 potential business cards.
* Of those two, the chance to hit two consecutive good cards is lower than the chance to hit two consecutive bad cards plus the chance of hitting one good and one bad card.

Also, the new mulligan rule greatly helps this deck out because you can mill your opponent with a mill-rock if he scry's and keeps the top card.

With a little bit of luck Dig Through Time leaves the meta-game at which point we are back to Ponder and Brainstorm (and Gitaxian Probe for certain decks). I believe that's manageable, especially so when running discard spells.

@Zac: I hope you are able to get a hold of the 3 Field of Dreams you need for the deck. If this really becomes a problem I'm willing to lend them out to you.

[Barook]

How would Chains of Mephistopheles work with the basic premise of the deck?

[bruizar]

How would Chains of Mephistopheles work with the basic premise of the deck?

I don't have an updated list on what cards it would hit in the current legacy meta. Off the top of my head:

* Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Brainstorm

Splash damage:
* Cascade Waterfalls: Ancestrall Visions
* A random Predict?
* Enter the Infinite, but I guess you're gonna be dead regardless, actually, you aren't. Two millstone activations win you the game if they cast Enter the Infinite :P
* Storm: Preordain
* Miracles / Turbo Eldrazi : activated Sensei's Divining Top
* Elves: Glimpse of Nature

What did I miss?

[jrsthethird]

Painful Truths. ;)

Also Silvergill Adept, Relic of Progenitus, Sylvan Library.

[Zllig]

Well was gonna buy the 2 Field of Dreams I needed for this when they were 6 dollars and now they are 90. Fuck Magic, I'm unbelievably tilted.

[Redkid43]

Well was gonna buy the 2 Field of Dreams I needed for this when they were 6 dollars and now they are 90. Fuck Magic, I'm unbelievably tilted.

https://41.media.tumblr.com/e8e7e580acdc811446742a7dbc583943/tumblr_nvct011N9z1src03io1_540.png


What the ever living fuck is this shit.

[keys]

Well was gonna buy the 2 Field of Dreams I needed for this when they were 6 dollars and now they are 90. Fuck Magic, I'm unbelievably tilted.

Are you telling me this jank costs as much as a mana drain?

[Redkid43]

There isn't even an inkling that this deck is going to even be viable in Legacy, or even any recorded results on MODO or anything and this fucking shit is $90 bucks on TCG LOW.

Jesus fucking christ.

[Zllig]

Yeah this is close to the most egregious example of sellers noticing a small amount of people wanting a niche old rare card and deciding that it must be worth ~100 dollars because fuck you.

[Mr.C]

Yeah this is close to the most egregious example of sellers noticing a small amount of people wanting a niche old rare card and deciding that it must be worth ~100 dollars because fuck you.

This has been going on for at least 5 years.

[Michael Keller]

Yeah this is close to the most egregious example of sellers noticing a small amount of people wanting a niche old rare card and deciding that it must be worth ~100 dollars because fuck you.

I wouldn't worry about the card being $100.00. It's in a very volatile state right now price-wise and there is skewed pricing going on right now with TCG as there aren't many other retailers actually actively selling copies. Completed auctions on eBay have the card selling at or around 25-40 a piece. You're actively seeing people post polarizing prices of the card on eBay because they don't know what it's supposed to be.

I'd wait and see how it plays out, but it's definitely not $100.00.

[Holiday]

Does Black Vise have a home in this deck? It was just unbanned.

[bruizar]

Dig Through Time's ban weakens the cantrip cartel. That's good news for Lantern. That leaves miracles as the most problematic matchup imo.

[shadowgripper]

I do already own three Field of Dreams. I wish I could invest the time in developing a competitive Lantern list for legacy but I lack the resources (time and cards) to properly develop and I want to wait to see how the meta settles down with the exclusion of Dig Through Time.

I strongly believe Lantern can be a contender because there are more streamlined combo decks vs. aggressive creature decks. There are many cards that Pithing Needle hits. Many more decks that MB discard suite just destroys and buys us so much time. Again, I just don't have the time or cards to developer and fine-tune a list right now.

A note for anyone testing this and thinking of card suggestions, as this will help speed up the process for you guys: Most cards, regardless of how good they are or bad they are by themselves, will likely be worthless in a Lantern deck. This style of deck doesn't play magic or try to win so don't aim to include cards that do that. You only want cards to increase the likely hood and consistency of getting the lock into place; the game ends then and there.

Examples:

Chains of Mephistopheles is poor because it doesn't prevent them from drawing cards and finding outs.
Black Vise doesn't do anything because our deck doesn't aim to kill people. This is a permanent that only kills and doesn't lock.
Island Sanctuary/Moat *could* be sweet but doesn't stop flyers from killing us (delver, emrakul, angels, etc) and has no effect the turn we play it.
Back to Basics is by itself a sweet card but does nothing to help our lock. Lantern cares not for allowing the opponent to play cards, only the cards available to the opponent.

If you have any specific questions or want to reach out to me (I dont check forums that often) I'm on twitter @utdzac

[MGB]

I do already own three Field of Dreams. I wish I could invest the time in developing a competitive Lantern list for legacy but I lack the resources (time and cards) to properly develop and I want to wait to see how the meta settles down with the exclusion of Dig Through Time.

I strongly believe Lantern can be a contender because there are more streamlined combo decks vs. aggressive creature decks. There are many cards that Pithing Needle hits. Many more decks that MB discard suite just destroys and buys us so much time. Again, I just don't have the time or cards to developer and fine-tune a list right now.

A note for anyone testing this and thinking of card suggestions, as this will help speed up the process for you guys: Most cards, regardless of how good they are or bad they are by themselves, will likely be worthless in a Lantern deck. This style of deck doesn't play magic or try to win so don't aim to include cards that do that. You only want cards to increase the likely hood and consistency of getting the lock into place; the game ends then and there.


I have to second this point. I've tried playtesting this deck online and if I hadn't known that it has been successful in the hands of people like Zac here, I would doubt the potency of the deck. It's so far from the normal Magic experience that you have to reconfigure your brain just to effectively pilot the deck, let alone suggest structural changes to the deck list.

I think there is only a small percentage of even the *competent* Magic players (players who otherwise do well with most other decks) that have the ability and desire to succeed with this deck.

[Michael Keller]

I disagree. This is a prison deck at its very core. Prison decks in 1995 may be different than they are in 2015, but the core remains the same - to lock opponents out of the game. Black Vise was the best at what it did for years - and for good reason.

You can bet I'll be packing four in here, at least in my iteration.

[shadowgripper]

I disagree. This is a prison deck at its very core. Prison decks in 1995 may be different than they are in 2015, but the core remains the same - to lock opponents out of the game. Black Vise was the best at what it did for years - and for good reason.

You can bet I'll be packing four in here, at least in my iteration.

How in the world does black vise lock people out of the game?

This is not a normal prison deck at its core. It's something new. It's "prison" as defined as a deck that prevents the opponent from winning by locking them out of the game. It is not a "Prison" deck in the sense that it prevents the opponent from using lands or casting spells. It's a "Prison" deck only in the sense that it prevents them from winning and finding outs to break up your lock.

Lantern completely controls variance. You remove your opponents ability to play the game, their ability to find answer, their ability to do anything meaningful by controlling their luck and their options. You choose how they play, they do not. You choose what they draw, what cards they are allowed to win with. The Lantern deck does not want to win, it wants to delete the opponent's win condition.

Apologies if this comes off harshly, but I've put a lot of time, thought, and practice into Lantern. You can trust me when I say you want to focus on the core of the deck, the goals I've outlined earlier in this thread, versus standard norms of playing magic.

[MGB]

I think the best way to view Lantern Control is this way:

You are a control deck, but instead of controlling the board, or controlling the stack, you are controlling the library. The vast majority of control decks try to accomplish their goals via the two former strategies, but this is a unique control deck in that it just wants enough control of the board (through catch-all lock pieces like Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle) to allow itself to shift its focus to the library and then when it controls the library effectively, it has won the game.

Compare Lantern Control to something like Miracles - Countertop controls the stack, and will prevent topdecked threats from resolving most of the time. Terminus controls the board and will retroactively wipe out board presence. Lantern Control's analog for the former is the Lantern+Mill Rocks, and its analog for the latter is Ensnaring Bridge. Both decks are trying to accomplish the same things, but they are doing it at different levels of the game. In computer terminology, it's like a software firewall vs. a hardware firewall. The software firewall (Miracles) will try to stop things at the application level (board/stack) whereas the hardware firewall (Lantern Control) will try to stop intrusive packets at the network layer (the library).

[Michael Keller]

How in the world does black vise lock people out of the game?

Black Vise doesn't lock people out of the game - the manipulation of draws do. The congruent nature of moving ahead with a strategy like that while implementing a static source of realistic amounts of damage seems highly prevalent to the architecture of this deck, which at the moment aside from its base strategy has an anemic way of winning games in a format like Legacy.


This is not a normal prison deck at its core. It's something new. It's "prison" as defined as a deck that prevents the opponent from winning by locking them out of the game. It is not a "Prison" deck in the sense that it prevents the opponent from using lands or casting spells. It's a "Prison" deck only in the sense that it prevents them from winning and finding outs to break up your lock.

I disagree. I think this is a prison deck at its core - in fact the very nature of its fabric suggests it is exclusively a prison deck. Just because it falls into a different contextual definition of what "prison" means doesn't change the fact that - as stated - it's a prison deck at its core that locks opponents out of the game in one capacity or another.


Lantern completely controls variance. You remove your opponents ability to play the game, their ability to find answer, their ability to do anything meaningful by controlling their luck and their options. You choose how they play, they do not. You choose what they draw, what cards they are allowed to win with. The Lantern deck does not want to win, it wants to delete the opponent's win condition.

I'm aware of what the strategy involves, and I still feel in a format as deep and diverse as Legacy biting a card or two from the top of an opponent's library isn't going work by itself. Your opponent will still get to draw Magic cards over the course of a game, and even though you can partially dictate what those draws will be, you can't depend on that linear strategy by itself; the deck needs multiple angles of attack.

Let's be honest here, sir: we're talking about building a Legacy deck with Field of Dreams and Black Vise. That just gives me a hard on thinking about it.


Apologies if this comes off harshly, but I've put a lot of time, thought, and practice into Lantern. You can trust me when I say you want to focus on the core of the deck, the goals I've outlined earlier in this thread, versus standard norms of playing magic.

That's fine, but there's something you need to understand: this is an untested strategy in a format like Legacy. Very untested. You can't assume a card like Black Vise won't give this deck a tremendous boost in productivity over the course of several turns, because to be honest with you I think it's exactly what this deck was missing - especially since it hasn't seen realistic competitive play in twenty years. There's no telling how good it can be unless you try it.

[shadowgripper]

I think the big difference that appears to be missing here is that normal Prison decks require a win condition, because they need to close out the game. If they didn't the opponent would eventually draw too many cards and/or find potential answers. Like you said, the legacy card pool is huge.

However, Lantern is not that. You never need to close out the game because you have ended the game. It is not statistically probable that the opponent can "draw out of the lock" If their deck has 15 cards that break your lock (which is being generous), thats a whole 1/4 cards in their deck. With two mill rocks in play they would need 5 cards in a row. How likely can they hit 1/4 of those cards... five times in a row. The lantern deck wins because it has deleted all turns of magic, rendering both players unable to play, and resulting in the opponent losing. THAT is the win condition. You do not speed this up. They cannot get out. There are no outs. The only outs are sheer number of cards, not quality of cards. This is the power of the Lantern lock.

[bruizar]

I do already own three Field of Dreams. I wish I could invest the time in developing a competitive Lantern list for legacy but I lack the resources (time and cards) to properly develop and I want to wait to see how the meta settles down with the exclusion of Dig Through Time.

I strongly believe Lantern can be a contender because there are more streamlined combo decks vs. aggressive creature decks. There are many cards that Pithing Needle hits. Many more decks that MB discard suite just destroys and buys us so much time. Again, I just don't have the time or cards to developer and fine-tune a list right now.

A note for anyone testing this and thinking of card suggestions, as this will help speed up the process for you guys: Most cards, regardless of how good they are or bad they are by themselves, will likely be worthless in a Lantern deck. This style of deck doesn't play magic or try to win so don't aim to include cards that do that. You only want cards to increase the likely hood and consistency of getting the lock into place; the game ends then and there.

Examples:

Chains of Mephistopheles is poor because it doesn't prevent them from drawing cards and finding outs.
Black Vise doesn't do anything because our deck doesn't aim to kill people. This is a permanent that only kills and doesn't lock.
Island Sanctuary/Moat *could* be sweet but doesn't stop flyers from killing us (delver, emrakul, angels, etc) and has no effect the turn we play it.
Back to Basics is by itself a sweet card but does nothing to help our lock. Lantern cares not for allowing the opponent to play cards, only the cards available to the opponent.

If you have any specific questions or want to reach out to me (I dont check forums that often) I'm on twitter @utdzac

I agree with you fully on this. Although well intended, some of the card suggestions here are very much top-of-the-head, without much deep thought about where the deck is strategically placed. I've read through most of the fateseal control thread on salvation and watched all of the videos out there to understand it. The paradigm of lantern control is really not that difficult to grasp; it's just that it challenges one of the core assumptions of proper deck building, namelly that "preventing your opponent from winning is worst than winning yourself". If you can remove that one thing from your mental models, it's much easier to grasp what works and what doesn't.

Secondly, I've noticed one deck building pitfall myself. This is a prison deck, but it feels like a control deck at time. You should not mistake those for each other. I'll show you what I mean..

This is a control list I made in 2013. It's the closest thing resembling lantern in that it (a) plays some of the same cards in lantern or (b) uses frequently suggested cards for lantern. (Note: before I step on someone, I want to emphasize this is obviously a totally different deck and I'm not claiming to have made some precursor to it. I'm just using this as an example for control)
http://imgur.com/pkz80SI.png

So what makes lantern a prison deck is the redundancy and focus on disabling plays whereas control tries to answer plays. Control routes, in this case the UB Dark Depths list here, have a very fluid game plan because it can find an answer or adjust the game accordingly. Prison decks are much more focused on just dropping the lock and forcing concession, period. Normally, prison decks still need a way to win and this can lead into games going to time. The nice thing about lantern control is that the control components (millstones) work as a built in inevitable win condition so any dedicated win condition is a slot wasted. That should only be considered if you lose to time too often.

Also, Lantern doesn't care about the card quantity of your opponent, only cares about card quality. It doesn't matter if your opponent has 20 lands available or not, because he shouldn't have relevant spells to cast in the first place. Chains of Mephistopheles only addresses card quantity, but you still have no control over which cards are discarded.

These principles should serve as guidelines when considering cards for the deck.

I'm still somewhere between an Esper version and the Energy Field version. I don't think Energy Field is going to make it. Clique-locking with Karakas and point-discard are a very attractive proposition.

[Fox]

There may actually be an argument for Portent in these deckslists, though I don't know if it can replace all copies of brainstorm. Still, such a card gives you some game against null rod and other artifact hate.

With all the talk of Black Vise, go with Transmute Artifact. Also, Reality Shift is *the* removal spell this deck wants to side into. I will warn you however, that these cards also pull you into the world of Tezzerator, MUD, Stasis, and Dreadnoughts - while inspiration can be found there, maintaining Lantern's identity may not.

As a highly experimental suggestion, I think Fathom Feeder could be the best creature for this what this deck does (though it is devoid so can't pitch to force like a stryx).

[Michael Keller]

One other thing to consider is Black Vise's power on turns one through three with mill effects. Assuming you see one on top of your library where it becomes a "useless" draw, you can always mill it away if you know it's there with Field of Dreams or Lantern - thus nullifying it as a potential draw.

[Cire]

Love this deck idea! But I proxied it and lost two games - the first to an early turn gurmag angler, and the second to Chalice (and Blood Moon). I would love it if there was enough blue in this deck to run FOW game 1. . . .

[Svyelunite]

I playtested a Sultai version of this deck with some friends the other day. They were on Sultai Delver and Miracles. Miracles is a pretty easy win if you get a Needle on top early because they just don't have many ways out of the lock pre-board. The Delver deck was harder but that's because they have pretty much the ideal package of stuff to fight you: Decay, Counterspells, Thoughtseize and a fast clock. Even with all that, it wasn't impossible to lock them up pretty quickly and if they don't have Decay in hand, they'll never get one.

The reason I went with the Sultai version (as opposed to a mono blue, UB, or Esper) is Abrupt Decay. It is the best multi-purpose answer to the commonly played problem permanents (LotV, Counterbalance, DRS, Null Rod, etc). I also opted to just run Ancient Stirrings as my "tutor" instead of BS/Ponder or Enlightened/Infernal. It wasn't perfect, but it does a pretty good job and the redundancy in this deck makes it pretty darn efficient.

Here's the list for reference:
4x Lantern
4x Shredder
4x Bell
4x Bridge
3x Needle
3x Mox Opal
2x Welding Jar
1x Lotus Petal
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Field of Dreams
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
2x Academy Ruins
2x Vault of Whispers
1x Tree of Tales
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Wasteland

[shadowgripper]

@Svyelunite I like that list a lot. But why maindeck Welding Jars? Any explicit examples would be much appreciated.

I would think a Nihil Spellbomb somewhere in the maindeck is a good idea, given there are a good number of decks that rely on the graveyard (unlike modern). I also considered some number of darkblast, or ways to combat D&T/elves as those can be brutal.

[Cire]

Can Noxious Revival be a good card to include? Give you any removal or discard you milled into your own yard and get give you back your bridge or anything like that in case it is destroyed?

[Svyelunite]

@Svyelunite I like that list a lot. But why maindeck Welding Jars? Any explicit examples would be much appreciated.

I would think a Nihil Spellbomb somewhere in the maindeck is a good idea, given there are a good number of decks that rely on the graveyard (unlike modern). I also considered some number of darkblast, or ways to combat D&T/elves as those can be brutal.

I went with Welding Jar over Spellskite because it's harder to counter and it totally blanks all the MD StPs that are so prevalent in Legacy. Also, there is not much Burn, and no Splintertwin to need it MD against like in Modern. Very minor: it also allowed me to power on my Opals T1 and incredible amount of the time.

Spellbomb is probably a good one to consider, I just like Extraction better. Delve is going away (mostly) so the need for massive GY hate is diminished.

D&T probably isn't too bad of a matchup because they are kind of slow, but I don't know as I haven't tried it yet. Elves could def be a problem. I'd be more inclined to fight them from the SB. Run Engineered Plague and Dread of Night possibly, in addition to Darkblast or Golgari Charm.

[bruizar]

Elves could def be a problem.

Grafdigger's Cage is a good roleplayer here, providing defense against Green Sun's Zenith which gets Reclamation Sage targeting the Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote thus enabling Reclamation Sage recursion.


Also, Reality Shift is *the* removal spell this deck wants to side into. I will warn you however, that these cards also pull you into the world of Tezzerator, MUD, Stasis, and Dreadnoughts - while inspiration can be found there, maintaining Lantern's identity may not.

That is some specialized tech man. Def a test worthy sideboard card.



The reason I went with the Sultai version (as opposed to a mono blue, UB, or Esper) is Abrupt Decay. It is the best multi-purpose answer to the commonly played problem permanents (LotV, Counterbalance, DRS, Null Rod, etc).

Duskmantle, House of Shadows circumvents Null Rod completely should it become a real issue. You can also complete the lock against chalice of the void if you can drop a lantern or field before they resolve CotV. The same goes for Chalice of the Void. If you can drop a Field or Lantern, Duskmantle completes the lock regardless of Chalice of the Void.

The fact that you're rolling over Miracles convinces me that Abrupt Decay really is unmissable. Zac already said this before. nice list, much more in the spirit of the original deck.



Can Noxious Revival be a good card to include? Give you any removal or discard you milled into your own yard and get give you back your bridge or anything like that in case it is destroyed?
Noxious Revival is sometimes played in the modern version (Also aggressively in case there are 2 good cards in a row you can't get rid off)

[shadowgripper]

Also the deck should play at least 1 Sheltered Valley.

[Cire]

Any thought for Enlightened Tutor combined with Gitaxian Probe/Street Wraith? The idea is that while the combo (Lantern + Bridge + 3 Library Mill) is sort of relatively easy to form (although I am finding that this isn't all that true, tutor could help here as well) board clean up/control is hard to establish - discard allowing bridge to land is critical, but bridge itself is still only a 4 of - tutor can make it more consistent. The fact that the tutor can also get any other part of the combo is a plus.

Here is a WB version based on the above idea:

12//Combo
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell

15//Clean-Up
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay

10//Tutor/Draw
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Street Wraith

6//Acceleration
4 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal

2//Other
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction

15//Lands
13 Other Lands?
2 Academy Ruins

The manabase is a little tortured due to the need for blue in Academy Ruins and Green for Abrupt Decay. . . . Maybe replace ruins with Noxious Revival/ and replace Abrupt Decay with STP? (not much non creature permanents that we care all that much about outside Chalice and Counterbalance)

[Svyelunite]

(not much non creature permanents that we care all that much about outside Chalice and Counterbalance)

Liliana of the Veil, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Jace Vryn's Prodigy (obviously after he flips) go on that list. Also, Chalice and Counterbalance are game over for this deck pre-board if you don't have a full lock established when they come down. I don't honestly think the deck will be viable without Decay, there's just too much risk of auto-losing to those cards.

[Cire]

Fair enough - that alone is probably a strike against the tutor as that would require a 4c mana base.

[Michael Keller]

Any thought for Enlightened Tutor combined with Gitaxian Probe/Street Wraith? The idea is that while the combo (Lantern + Bridge + 3 Library Mill) is sort of relatively easy to form (although I am finding that this isn't all that true, tutor could help here as well) board clean up/control is hard to establish - discard allowing bridge to land is critical, but bridge itself is still only a 4 of - tutor can make it more consistent. The fact that the tutor can also get any other part of the combo is a plus.

Here is a WB version based on the above idea:

12//Combo
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell

15//Clean-Up
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay

10//Tutor/Draw
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Street Wraith

6//Acceleration
4 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal

2//Other
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction

15//Lands
13 Other Lands?
2 Academy Ruins

The manabase is a little tortured due to the need for blue in Academy Ruins and Green for Abrupt Decay. . . . Maybe replace ruins with Noxious Revival/ and replace Abrupt Decay with STP? (not much non creature permanents that we care all that much about outside Chalice and Counterbalance)

As much as I hate to say it, I think blue may be a necessary evil for the deck with Field of Dreams. It gives you Lanterns 5-7 and more consistency with the strategy of the deck.

I wonder how Mishra's Bauble would work in here, as well.

[shadowgripper]

Bauble is underwhelming, as experienced from testing.

Abrupt Decay is as necessary as discard spells. It answers the unknown and provides relief in many situations, not just Legacy.

I thought Enlightened tutor would be a good idea but I highly doubt it's needed. The only thing to search up is bridge, and Ancient Stirrings does a good enough job of that.

I would run other utility lands / colored sources than Duskmantle, House of Shadows. That effect, while cool, is not needed. I'm thinking of running 2 City of Traitors. Once you power out your hand its okay for you to just lose the lands, you don't really have to cast anything.

I have been testing Noxious Revival in Modern because of the lack of lanterns. More often than not, you keep a good hand that is lanternless. Blind milling is a bad idea unless you have an active Ruins or Shredder to bring something back. However, Revival acts as a fifth lantern early game and/or helps against snapcaster/cantrips later in the game. Generally the card isn't saved in the hand, as Lantern doesn't really play magic.

[Svyelunite]

I'm thinking of running 2 City of Traitors. Once you power out your hand its okay for you to just lose the lands, you don't really have to cast anything.

It's probably because I've never played a deck with this card in it, but I cannot figure how I missed this. Its bonkers in decks attempting to power out 1-3 mana artifacts (ie MUD) and Codex Shredder and Ensnaring Bridge meet those criteria also. Per Zac's suggestion, I will get on gatherer and begin the hunt for obscure utility lands.

[rufus]

It's probably because I've never played a deck with this card in it, but I cannot figure how I missed this. Its bonkers in decks attempting to power out 1-3 mana artifacts (ie MUD) and Codex Shredder and Ensnaring Bridge meet those criteria also. Per Zac's suggestion, I will get on gatherer and begin the hunt for obscure utility lands.

In that case other sol lands like Crystal Vein are also worth consideration.

[Cire]

I thought Enlightened tutor would be a good idea but I highly doubt it's needed. The only thing to search up is bridge, and Ancient Stirrings does a good enough job of that.


Would you mind giving me a break down of your actions turn by turn before the combo lock is established - I am finding that getting the lock down takes a while since you need at least 2 mill rocks and hopefully while also playing discard/decay. Additionally, I've only been able to consistently get Bridge by turn 4/5 with stirrings and I am not sure that is fast enough. I am thinking that to be competitive, you need bridge in play by turn 2/3 (hence why I am thinking about tombs and tutor). Thanks. Off course I defer to you in all this as you have much much more experience in this deck.

[Svyelunite]

Would you mind giving me a break down of your actions turn by turn before the combo lock is established - I am finding that getting the lock down takes a while since you need at least 2 mill rocks and hopefully while also playing discard/decay. Additionally, I've only been able to consistently get Bridge by turn 4/5 with stirrings and I am not sure that is fast enough. I am thinking that to be competitive, you need bridge in play by turn 2/3 (hence why I am thinking about tombs and tutor). Thanks. Off course I defer to you in all this as you have much much more experience in this deck.

In modern its almost always correct to slam the Lantern turn 1, but Legacy is a different animal and I haven't decided if the turn 1 hand disruption is probably the better move or not. Against decks like Storm it sure is, and sometimes Delver decks keep sketchy hands based on the power of Brainstorm. That said, the priority I find (again from playing it in modern a lot) is Lantern > Mill Rocks > Discard > Stirrings for turn 1 and 2. After that its sort of, whatever you have mana for until your hand is empty. The only cards I "hold back" are Stirrings and Needle unless there's an obvious use like stopping their Grim Lavamancer or finding your 3rd Land/1st Bridge/Lantern etc. That said, if we get to turn 4 and are still holding a Stirrings, its either obvious what you want to find, or you just play it and take whatever helps tighten the noose the most, usually more mill rocks.

[sistinas]

Fabricate/Intuition are on-color with Field of Dreams.
Powered by Sol-Lands they find all the pieces including bridge.
Probably too expensive though.

[bruizar]

Liliana of the Veil, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Jace Vryn's Prodigy (obviously after he flips) go on that list. Also, Chalice and Counterbalance are game over for this deck pre-board if you don't have a full lock established when they come down. I don't honestly think the deck will be viable without Decay, there's just too much risk of auto-losing to those cards.

Liliana of the Veil does exactly nothing against this deck. I wonder why you would care about Liliana of the Veil.




I would run other utility lands / colored sources than Duskmantle, House of Shadows. That effect, while cool, is not needed. I'm thinking of running 2 City of Traitors. Once you power out your hand its okay for you to just lose the lands, you don't really have to cast anything.



It's probably because I've never played a deck with this card in it, but I cannot figure how I missed this. Its bonkers in decks attempting to power out 1-3 mana artifacts (ie MUD) and Codex Shredder and Ensnaring Bridge meet those criteria also. Per Zac's suggestion, I will get on gatherer and begin the hunt for obscure utility lands.

Guys, you're playing way way way too greedy with your mana bases. You can't get away playing a three to four colored deck with lands that produce colorless mana. How are you going to include Sheltered Valley, Academy Ruins and City of Traitors with that many colors in a deck that has 17/18 lands at max. Mox Opal isn't the answer.

Also, I would much rather have Karakas than City of traitors or Sheltered Valley. I've played a lot of Sheltered Valley in prison decks, and the purpose of the card is to buy 1 or 2 turns against burn decks and Delver. While I understand that this is important, and I know from experience the card is good, Clique locking with Karakas is essentially a hard lock once you get field of dreams or lantern down. If you really want to go there you can also Vensor lock but I think that's a bit too ambitious. It also provides an answer to Kataki, War's Wage and other random legends reanimate likes to play. IMO a much better use of the utility land slot.

If you guys want tutor cards I would take Transmute Artifact over Enlightened Tutor UNLESS I would somehow be playing Counterbalance.

[shadowgripper]

Greedy with manabase? But have you seen my Charlotte and OKC decklist? Do you think that is inconsistent?

I cannot see how Karakas + Clique is any good. Clique costs three mana and is the only thing in our deck that gets hit by creature removal. What exactly are we locking with Clique? A card they drew? Are they really drawing cards when we have 8 mill rocks in our deck? I fail to understand the application and likelihood of effectiveness from those two, specific cards.

[Cire]

Greedy with manabase? But have you seen my Charlotte and OKC decklist? Do you think that is inconsistent?

I cannot see how Karakas + Clique is any good. Clique costs three mana and is the only thing in our deck that gets hit by creature removal. What exactly are we locking with Clique? A card they drew? Are they really drawing cards when we have 8 mill rocks in our deck? I fail to understand the application and likelihood of effectiveness from those two, specific cards.

I guess my issue, which is separate from people who have more experience in this deck, is that: No, I am not finding 8 mill rocks enough (which is why I tried adding tutor).

[shadowgripper]

@Cire, Usually "Lantern + Mill rock" is enough. Thats enough to prevent them from getting good stuff *most* of the time. And when you dont have to hit their stuff, you mill yourself to find more rocks. The second mill rock changes your chance of survival; it exponentially increases it. The second rock is when I feel very comfortable and relaxed. The third rock is the final piece; you don't need it right away. Once you have it, that's when you gain complete control, virtually shutting down the opponent completely. During this time you dig for your fourth rock, which ends the game. Once you have four you can mill them EoT and untap with safety.

[bruizar]

Greedy with manabase? But have you seen my Charlotte and OKC decklist? Do you think that is inconsistent?

I cannot see how Karakas + Clique is any good. Clique costs three mana and is the only thing in our deck that gets hit by creature removal. What exactly are we locking with Clique? A card they drew? Are they really drawing cards when we have 8 mill rocks in our deck? I fail to understand the application and likelihood of effectiveness from those two, specific cards.

This isn't a format that runs tectonic edge or Fulminator Mage. We're living in a world with main deck Wasteland, Force of Will, Stifle, Spell Pierce and Daze, all ready to punish greedy mana bases. I think you aren't taking this into consideration here. I'll be the first guy to say that lantern is viable in legacy, but inconsistent, greedy mana bases get punished hard here. And yes, I know you only need a couple of activations from your multicolor sources, but opening with Academy Ruins + City of Traitors is just awkward when you're banking on a Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek.

--

Vendilion Clique is a discard spell that can be played during the draw step and can be returned every turn. Take a moment to realize what this means in a deck with lanterns. You can (a) deplete business spells from hand and (b) remove the drawn card before your opponent has the ability to play it, turning it essentially in a mill. You don't actually care if they kill it, and you can Karakas in response if you have the land in play. In the case that they don't kill it with a spell, it can chump block, for instance, a delver to reduce the clock against you. I'm not making this up. Karakas + Clique has proven to be viable in legacy time and again. I'm not denying there is an opportunity cost for a 3 mana discard spell; I'm primarily making a case for prioritizing Karakas over Sheltered Valley/City of Traitors.

--

Having said that, I'll be trying a more heavy black build with Unmasks and a slew of other discard spells.

[jrsthethird]

I want to play this deck. What is the most recent list that you folks are testing?

[Cire]

@Cire, Usually "Lantern + Mill rock" is enough. Thats enough to prevent them from getting good stuff *most* of the time. And when you dont have to hit their stuff, you mill yourself to find more rocks. The second mill rock changes your chance of survival; it exponentially increases it. The second rock is when I feel very comfortable and relaxed. The third rock is the final piece; you don't need it right away. Once you have it, that's when you gain complete control, virtually shutting down the opponent completely. During this time you dig for your fourth rock, which ends the game. Once you have four you can mill them EoT and untap with safety.

I just don't think Lantern + Mill Rock is enough against Brainstorm and Top. I agree that 3 usually ends the game, but 1 is insufficient with such selection available, in my current view.

[Svyelunite]

Liliana of the Veil does exactly nothing against this deck. I wonder why you would care about Liliana of the Veil.

You ever played against LotV with the Modern version? -6: lose all your non-bridge permanents or your ensnaring bridge so I can crush you with these tarmogoyfs is a very real occurence. You find a Decay or Needle in a hurry or you just die to her. She never -2's against you so her ultimate occurs 3 turns after she's cast.

[Svyelunite]

I just don't think Lantern + Mill Rock is enough against Brainstorm and Top. I agree that 3 usually ends the game, but 1 is insufficient with such selection available, in my current view.

Against Top you have to find multiple rocks or a Needle. Brainstorm and company fight your lock early game, but later on you just don't let them draw it. The key to this deck is getting to a point where they don't have any of those cards in hand and you never let them draw it. That said, maybe a 9-10 mill rock will prove necessary in the Legacy port, but I'm skeptical.

[bruizar]

You ever played against LotV with the Modern version? -6: lose all your non-bridge permanents or your ensnaring bridge so I can crush you with these tarmogoyfs is a very real occurence. You find a Decay or Needle in a hurry or you just die to her. She never -2's against you so her ultimate occurs 3 turns after she's cast.

Brainfarted here. My bad. :-)

[Svyelunite]

Brainfarted here. My bad. :-)

Haha, NP. I haven't experienced it, but I assume turn 2 Lili off of a DRS is even more terrifying in Legacy. That kind of pressure may really push the correct play towards turn 1 hand disruption above all else. Worth noting for people with available time to test the deck.

Side question: WTF is up with price of Field of Dreams? I bought one for $5, 2 weeks ago, now their $50+ ? This deck hasn't proven it can do anything yet? Sure hope its just speculators and it gets reasonable again.

[Begle1]

Side question: WTF is up with price of Field of Dreams? I bought one for $5, 2 weeks ago, now their $50+ ? This deck hasn't proven it can do anything yet? Sure hope its just speculators and it gets reasonable again.

Is there a way to see not just historic TCGPlayer/ StarCity prices, but inventory levels? I'm pretty sure somebody bought the entire TCGPlayer inventory at once in the past week or so, probably somebody reading this thread. Got them all for less than $10 a piece, hoping for a strong tournament performance for a good return on investment.

It's amazing how all it takes to corner the market on an old Magic card is a thousand bucks and an hour of time.

[Darkenslight]

...I was thinking; in a tutor-based list, how potent would the interaction between Ghost Quarter and Crucible of Worlds be? Eventually running the opponent out of lands seems like a viable alternate strategy.

[Michael Keller]

You know, a deck like this could be Sensei's Divining Top's worst enemy: if all their doing is tying up their mana resources to filter their own draws, it would be a bad idea for them to tap and spin Top to the top of their library with a mill effect on the table.

[Svyelunite]

You know, a deck like this could be Sensei's Divining Top's worst enemy: if all their doing is tying up their mana resources to filter their own draws, it would be a bad idea for them to tap and spin Top to the top of their library with a mill effect on the table.

I think this deck is very good against Miracles. It attacks them in a way they are pretty helpless to fight against both pre and post board. In Legacy, because Burn isn't near as popular as it is in Modern, the worst matchups will likely be super aggressive decks backed up by efficient disruption. That basically means BUG Delver, Jund, and Storm.

[Michael Keller]

I think this deck is very good against Miracles. It attacks them in a way they are pretty helpless to fight against both pre and post board. In Legacy, because Burn isn't near as popular as it is in Modern, the worst matchups will likely be super aggressive decks backed up by efficient disruption. That basically means BUG Delver, Jund, and Storm.

One has to wonder though with the return of Black Vise if Burn or sligh decks won't pop up again in droves - at least for initial tournaments after this banning.

[Svyelunite]

One has to wonder though with the return of Black Vise if Burn or sligh decks won't pop up again in droves - at least for initial tournaments after this banning.

You may be right. I normally play Infect, so I welcome a world full of less efficient Burn decks. That said, this probably isn't the best deck to try and surprise SCG St. Louis with.

[bruizar]

I want to play this deck. What is the most recent list that you folks are testing?

This is one of my work-in-progress lists. Here you'll see why there is a lot of tension in the manabase. If I can't get it to work I'll consider running Glimmervoid, Mana Confluence and City of Brass and just making it 5 color.


17 LAND
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins Would axe it if it wasn't for counterspells on Ensnaring Bridge
Other lands

43 CARDS
4 Mox Opal
3 Field of Dreams
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium (Choose as you like, I prefer it over Ghoulcaller's Bell)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Unmask
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Sideboard: 13
4 Meddling Mage
4 Peacekeeper
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Flex - probably elves and delver hate

[shadowgripper]

You play Surgical Extraction yet you play Pyxis.

='(

[bruizar]

You play Surgical Extraction yet you play Pyxis.

='(

Correct, it's not elegant. I dislike fueling graveyard strategies. I want to be able to remove Life from the Loam from Lands, fuel for Gurmag Anglers and Deathrite Shamans, as well as Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Then there's Ancient Grudge and Punishing Fire that you can sometimes remove, which is an added bonus. Also, I know you don't need to have Pyxis to win against reanimator but it does make it a lot more forgiving. One faulty Ghoulcaller's Bell activation and you're dead. I just don't feel comfortable giving them lines of play. I still have 4 codex shredder, 2 duskmantles and a bunch of discard spells to turn surgical on, but yeah it's not as nice as Ghoulcaller's Bell. With more experience I may convert to the Bell later, but for now I really like Pyxis.

--

I've also been flirting with the idea of 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy because he's a very fast flip in this deck, you get to shrink guys (acting as a semi bridge) and recycle discard spells and abrupt decays. I know playing Jace turns on creature removal, but it may be possible to play around it since you flip it immediately after summoning sickness wears off (with Ghoulcaller's Bell that is). Not sure if this is a good plan; just a thought I'm playing with.

[bruizar]

@more burn:

If that happens I'm boarding energy fields. The deck literally has zero outs.

Some more info about sideboard:
Meddling Mage comes in against combo and miracles after they side out creature hate. It is essentially a surgical extraction that doesnt need a target and blanks a draw with field or lantern.

Peacekeeper comes in against emrakul and elves (elves can only abrupt decay it or win through drs, mill those and needle drs). Some builds run shaman of the pack, this could kill you from a gsz. You can safely bring these in against non-lightning bolt decks as extra bridges.

[bruizar]

I really dislike the green splash for Abrupt Decay I can't find a good non-green/red solution for it. Vindicate is expensive and gets countered, Council's Judgment/Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere also catch counters :/.

[jrsthethird]

I really dislike the green splash for Abrupt Decay I can't find a good non-green/red solution for it. Vindicate is expensive and gets countered, Council's Judgment/Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere also catch counters :/.

Our problem permanents are mostly enchantments/artifacts, right? If this is a concern, perhaps a preemptive answer like Seal of Cleansing is possible? Or better, Aura of Silence.

[Svyelunite]

Our problem permanents are mostly enchantments/artifacts, right? If this is a concern, perhaps a preemptive answer like Seal of Cleansing is possible? Or better, Aura of Silence.

Well it depends on what you consider a problem, and how long you can survive with it in play. Liliana of the Veil is a problem and you get 3 turns at most. Deathrite Shaman is a problem, especially if you took a few hits from a Delver or a Goyf before you got your Bridge down. Same story for Grim Lavamancer. Counterbalance is a problem that once resolved, we are unlikely to ever be able to deal with if we're relying on 1 mana spells and sorcery speed removal.

The worst problem permanents are enchantments/artifacts, but there are plenty of others, and I'm not sure how much space we have to spare for a smattering of answer cards. Decay answers all of them and only takes 3-4 slots MD.

[shadowgripper]

Mana colors should not be a concern for this deck. Most of this deck is colorless.

You really want to run Abrupt Decay, at least two. Not because it hits planeswalkers or because it hits random enchantments or artifacts, but because it's a catch-all fix for the large number of board states that hinge on a single permanent. These types of board states are common when you disrupt their hand and leave them with certain cards, or when they play out those certain cards before you get to disrupt their hand.

For those who have not played this deck and experienced how and why it works, I strongly encourage you to do so before changing the core list. It's very hard to grasp what cards are good and what cards are bad, because your normal understanding of strengths of cards does not apply when building this deck.

I would use Svyelunite list a few pages back as the core starting list (swapping a few artifact lands for more fetchs and basics imo).

[Cire]

@Cire, Usually "Lantern + Mill rock" is enough. Thats enough to prevent them from getting good stuff *most* of the time. And when you dont have to hit their stuff, you mill yourself to find more rocks. The second mill rock changes your chance of survival; it exponentially increases it. The second rock is when I feel very comfortable and relaxed. The third rock is the final piece; you don't need it right away. Once you have it, that's when you gain complete control, virtually shutting down the opponent completely. During this time you dig for your fourth rock, which ends the game. Once you have four you can mill them EoT and untap with safety.

Again. . . maybe I am doing something wrong, but I do not find Lantern + Mill Rock to be adequate at all, especially in the face of FOW, daze, discard and the numerous other cards that exist in legacy. I understand now at least that creatures don't really matter and that I can wait till I draw/mill into Bridge (that is as long as I'm not killed.)

My usual play is:

1: Land --> Discard (or Lantern)
2: Land --> Lantern (or Discard) + Mill Rock
3: Possible Land --> Board Control and/or Mill Rock
4: Possible Land --> Discard/Board Control and/or Mill Rock
5 (and onward): Bridge/Mill Rock additional Board Control.

As such . . . I am still finding 8 Mill Rock's inadequate and may to increase the number to 12 total (Including Dusk Mantle as a Mill Rock). Again, I am willing to admit that I currently suck at using this deck, so I am not suggesting this change at all - it is currently a mere training wheel if you will.

Also random other thoughts -

Delver/Burn are super fast - Mill Rocks can prevent Delver from flipping and eventual Bridge can save you (against delver/angler), but you need at least 2 discard spells against their counters (and stifles) and even brainstorms to land bridge and that needs to be down by turn 5 at the latest. Unless you run 4 Stirrings/tutor, that isn't going to happen. Burn is just fast. . . and unless you have 2 discard spells by turn 4, I think you are pretty much dead. From these two decks, I think I am arguing that 4 Stirrings/tutor and that we are not running enough discard/permission. Again, as everything in this post, please be aware that I am admittedly a poor player of this deck and only offering insights from my own play tests. Additionally against counter-top decks, I find that you need a full set of Decay and Needle.

As such, my "training wheel changes" to Svyelunite's list post #110 are:

4x Lantern
4x Shredder
4x Bell
4x Bridge
4x Needle
2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Field of Dreams
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
2x Duskmantle, House of Shadow
1x Academy Ruins
13x Other Lands

Lack of Opal is obvious, and is probably the biggest change - as it's space was used for more permission, discard and mill rocks.

[Svyelunite]

So I was sifting through some bulk commons and uncommons and I stumbled across Set Adrift. This seems like a card we may be able to use it pretty easily as yet another answer to problematic permanents. It, in combination with the mill rocks you probably have already, is an answer to almost anything we'd encounter. It's also a way to ensure (pre-lock) that our opponents don't draw anything relevant. Thoughts?

[bruizar]

I wouldn't play without Abrupt Decay myself and I want to have access to 4 of them post board. I just hate that it's green. My lack of comfort was due to color requirements and the ease of hating colors out in the format. I will just try to run it as a 4 color build for now and see where that takes me. I'm quite satisfied with my list for now, although the mix of discard spells may change.

I'm also very happy with the Meddling Mages in the sideboard.

[Mr.C]

What about Mindshrieker as a wincon that can attack yhroigh bridge and act as a mana sink?

[jedi_gof]

If you want wincons that synergizes well with the deck, then maybe thopter foundry could be what you are looking for. Lifegain, cykles artifacts and sword needs to go to graveyard anyway. Your tokens can attack on your turn with bridge

[Svyelunite]

What about Mindshrieker as a wincon that can attack yhroigh bridge and act as a mana sink?

shadowgripper is going to chime in here soon to reiterate, but this deck doesn't need a win con. It is a huge pile of "don't lose" cons and once you cannot lose, you effectively win. It's just a matter of time.

[Fox]

-It is important to remember that Field of Dreams in an Enchant World - only one can be in play at one time and any new e-world [from any player] sends it to the yard. Once one has resolved, you will need ways to remove copies from your hand whether that is brainstorm, FoW, or others. It is a bad idea to run >2 in their absence. It may be best to use something like SDT or cantrips as copies 3 and 4.
-As far as the Set Adrift suggestion, Rite of Undoing is both faster and less expensive, and in fringe cases it gives you a second mill effect per turn - the downside being you can't flush a resolved permanent back into the library.
-The more I read the developing of these decklists, the less I like the green splash, certainly without something like maindeck Mirri's Guile to help remove unwanted draws in concert with shredder effects. The question becomes how important is Ancient Stirrings vs. shredding with more than current top card knowledge? I'm still feeling like this deck wants to be more and more a U/B deck, with white sideboard options.
-I will state again: Fathom Feeder is just the kind of wall you want in this deck. The last ability may as well be flavor text; non-blastable Ingest/Deathtouch for 2, yes please.

[Svyelunite]

-It is important to remember that Field of Dreams in an Enchant World - only one can be in play at one time and any new e-world [from any player] sends it to the yard. Once one has resolved, you will need ways to remove copies from your hand whether that is brainstorm, FoW, or others. It is a bad idea to run >2 in their absence. It may be best to use something like SDT or cantrips as copies 3 and 4.
-As far as the Set Adrift suggestion, Rite of Undoing is both faster and less expensive, and in fringe cases it gives you a second mill effect per turn - the downside being you can't flush a resolved permanent back into the library.
-The more I read the developing of these decklists, the less I like the green splash, certainly without something like maindeck Mirri's Guile to help remove unwanted draws in concert with shredder effects. The question becomes how important is Ancient Stirrings vs. shredding with more than current top card knowledge? I'm still feeling like this deck wants to be more and more a U/B deck, with white sideboard options.
-I will state again: Fathom Feeder is just the kind of wall you want in this deck. The last ability may as well be flavor text; non-blastable Ingest/Deathtouch for 2, yes please.

- If you draw a second Field of Dreams, just play it to replace the first. After you have a pseudo-lock, all you need to do is keep your hand empty.
- Rite of Undoing not putting the card on top doesn't really help solve a problem card (like Counterbalance, LotV, etc). It would be better against attacking creatures probably, but that isn't usually too big of an issue.
- How is this deck supposed to beat other decks game 1 if they have cards like Counterbalance, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Revoker or Chalice of the Void without Abrupt Decay? I won't say it's impossible, but it either requires a whole bunch of other cards taking up slots we probably can't spare, or incredibly good luck getting and resolving pithing needles. Personally, I view this as a G/B deck splashing blue. You need blue to cast Field of Dreams, and to activate Academy Ruins. My manabase reflects the heavier need for G and B, especially early on in the game.
- Feeder's abilities seem to do what this deck likes, but against decks that attack us to win (Delver, Jund, DnT etc) they almost always have removal. Adding a creature just makes all of those Lightning Bolts and StPs live, where previously they were dead cards (or mostly dead).

[shadowgripper]

"certainly without something like maindeck Mirri's Guile to help remove unwanted draws in concert with shredder effects"

But... we play lantern. That enchantment, like top, does nothing for us. Ancient Stirrings is incredibly powerful, more so than brainstorm, because it digs deeper. The deck plays on probability and statistics. We increase our odds to find what we need, which smooths out the winrate of the deck because of how consistent it is. The deck very quickly removes variance and common luck factor. Decay is super important because of unknown threats.

Black is needed to answer their threats.
Green is needed for consistency
Blue is needed for utility and resilience.

My Modern list prioritizes Red over blue because modern is more commonly flooded with creature-based decks that swarm the board. Clasm acts as additional bridges post-board and increases chance of survival. In Legacy cardpool, black covers those options.

[Svyelunite]

Oracle search for Legacy Legal nonbasic lands. Results shown are all of the non-dual/fetch hits that I felt could even possibly be relevant in a deck like this that aren't currently in the deck's normal configuration:
Ancient Tomb
Buried Ruin (probably just worse than Academy Ruins)
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Desert
Duskmantle, House of Shadows
Gemstone Cavern
Ice Floe
Karakas
Keldon Megaliths (it hits creatures, although it would require a lot of red we don't currently have)
Kher Keep (Chump blockers?)
Kor Haven
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Petrified Field (allows for more aggressive self milling prior to finding Academy Ruins)
Radiant Fountain
Riftstone Portal (makes G/W easier to support as colors, although arguably so does more fetchlands)
Sheltered Valley
Wasteland

Obviously most of these aren't very useful enough to warrant inclusion, but food for thought.

[bruizar]

Should also include Cabal Pit as an extra tool against DRS/Lavamancer

[Fox]

I haven't play-tested the deck, but it seems like the plan is mill until the opponent will draw a land. I just don't see preferentially sticking someone on mana playing well with a cmc-dependent single-target removal spell that has 0 utility vs reanimator, storm, sneak'n'show. Even against creature-feature decks, Abrupt Decay for a single critter on turn 2 won't necessarily be a good enough play. After this you have to worry about any topdeck manipulation by the opponent [brainstorm, ponder, top] since you can't stick them on that land draw - and this has to be a key consideration leaving the world of modern with their serum visions. If you're really all in on the bridge plan, you don't simply need to survive until 3 mana, you need to resolve it to....and protect it from things like Reclamation Sage and Ancient Grudge - and this is why I like the more blue approach with counter/discard protection (it should be noted that knowing the top 2-3 cards of your library allows strategic shredding of FoW).

If we're tunnel-visioned on no cards in hand, establish the bridge at all costs, and not caring if a turn is wasted drawing a land or 2nd copy of an enchant world, then I think this deck is in trouble. It is much easier to side vs one of the threats Svyelunite has mentioned than to go full-on anti-combo post-board. A resolved Cursed Scroll for instance stops planeswalkers, all the critters you named, anything that can realistically attack through a bridge with 1-2 cards in hand, and is indeed far too much damage per turn for miracles to win through. A chalice is can be attacked on the stack, by the upward/downward manipulation of counters residing on it, bouncing effects, and by animating it with power/toughness = to cmc [all of these are in U/B's wheelhouse].

The deck as most recently proposed appears to be playing a very dangerous game, banking on creature-light fair decks in the meta making 1-for-1 removal an effective strategy. While I'm sure it will perform well g1 vs miracles, delver decks [maybe], and SFM decks, this focus may be too narrow.

[MagicJaPa]

Hello, I play this deck on Modern and have some thoughts about the Legacy version.

The deck really needs Enlightened Tutor, i think it is better than Ancient Stirrings because the deck doesn't care about card advantage and it can pick the card even if it's not on the top5. I think of it as a better Noxious Revival (that people are using on Modern lists).
It's even better after SB to find specific cards like Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Warmth, Grafdigger's Cage or Rule of Law.

People were discussing about using Abrupt Decay or not. I think in Legacy we have a substitute on the same color of Tutor: Unexpectedly Absent. We can just mill the card after putting it on top.

This would be my first version (I can't test because I don't have all the cards):

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Mox Opal
2x Lotus Petal
3x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Field of Dreams
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

3x Marsh Flats
2x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
2x Academy Ruins
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Ancient Den
1x Seat of the Synod

[shadowgripper]

FWIW, I tested with Brainstorm first over Ancient Stirrings in a UB build. It was fine and helped me dig. I never really benefited from the fact I could mill myself and get rid of the two cards I put back.

Then I tested with Enlightened Tutor (3 of them) instead. I assumed they would be so much better because I wouldn't have to dig and could just get bridge or lantern effect or extra mill rock when I wanted it. However, after testing it, it still wasn't as impressive.

I still think Ancient Stirrings is correct. It functions as both: dig for a piece and find a card to play. I realize now there's a good chunk of occurrences in Modern where I take a land or a simple mill rock just so I have another card to play right-then-and-there. Yes sometimes I take a bridge and can't play it, but a majority of the time I'm taking a card I want to play right away. The "tutor to top" effect of E Tutor was just... underwhelming. You're welcome to try it, as well as stirrings, and let me know which you feel better about (Take notes!).

Now, good catch on Unexpectedly Absent. This is a sweet one. Double white you may find quite rough to cast but other than that this serves almost the same purpose. I would still rather put all my eggs on Abrupt Decay killing that thing that needs to be killed and not get countered by daze/fow/flusterstorm. We don't have much mana to pay taxes with, so that worries me. Again, you should test and let me know. I like to pretend that card could have been an Abrupt Decay everytime I cast then keep score, which was better or it made no difference.

[Svyelunite]

Hello, I play this deck on Modern and have some thoughts about the Legacy version.

The deck really needs Enlightened Tutor, i think it is better than Ancient Stirrings because the deck doesn't care about card advantage and it can pick the card even if it's not on the top5. I think of it as a better Noxious Revival (that people are using on Modern lists).
It's even better after SB to find specific cards like Dread of Night, Engineered Plague, Warmth, Grafdigger's Cage or Rule of Law.

People were discussing about using Abrupt Decay or not. I think in Legacy we have a substitute on the same color of Tutor: Unexpectedly Absent. We can just mill the card after putting it on top.

This would be my first version (I can't test because I don't have all the cards):

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Mox Opal
2x Lotus Petal
3x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Field of Dreams
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

3x Marsh Flats
2x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
2x Academy Ruins
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Ancient Den
1x Seat of the Synod


Ok, now we're talking! This is the best suggestion as an alternative to AD I've seen yet, so lets discuss specific cards pros/cons.

Enlightened tutor - Pro: guaranteed to find the missing piece of the lock, allows for more Enchantment based SB options, instant speed. Con: Puts it on top of your library so you can't cast it immediately. Limits your ability to use Bell/Pyxis once you've cast it (which sometimes you'll be forced to do if they Thoughtseize you). Cannot find non-artifact lands.
Unexpectedly Absent - Pro: Answers any problematic non-land permanent (regardless of CMC). Con: Doesn't actually answer the permanent without a subsequent mill. Double White cost is arguably harder to cast than GB on AD.
Abrupt Decay - Pro: Uncounterable, and let me stress how big a deal that is in Legacy. Mana cost easier to satisfy with basic lands. Con: Not able to answer all CMC problem cards (Leyline of Sanctity, JTMS, Sneak Attack)
Ancient Stirrings - Pro: Finds lands and nonlands alike. Card goes to hand for possible immediate use. Con: Can actually whiff entirely (although this is extremely unlikely in this deck). Won't always find the specific lock piece you're missing. Sorcery Speed.

My guess is that the uncounterable aspect of AD still gives it the edge, especially against a deck like Miracles. That said, Enlightened Tutor, and its ability to cherry pick not only lock pieces, but the multitude of awesome SB hate cards white has, has a big power edge over Ancient Stirrings. I really dislike Tutor putting the card on top, because frequently you'll get into the position where you're empty handed but you have the lantern/mill rock engine going. When you see an Enlightened Tutor in that position it'll probably feel pretty bad, whereas Ancient Stirrings is usually a great top deck. Prior to that point however, Tutor is definitely higher consistency. The really important data point (which I haven't tried to calculate) is just how much more consistent, ie: how often does Ancient Stirrings miss, or leave you with a card that doesn't help and you lose as a result where E. Tutor would have gotten it and you win?

Side Note: I'm going to a Legacy event this weekend (not an IQ, but roughly 30 ppl and same caliber of players) and I'm going to run the Green version to help gather data and anecdotal evidence. I'll report back Monday on how it goes.

[Svyelunite]

FWIW, I tested with Brainstorm first over Ancient Stirrings in a UB build. It was fine and helped me dig. I never really benefited from the fact I could mill myself and get rid of the two cards I put back.

Then I tested with Enlightened Tutor (3 of them) instead. I assumed they would be so much better because I wouldn't have to dig and could just get bridge or lantern effect or extra mill rock when I wanted it. However, after testing it, it still wasn't as impressive.

I still think Ancient Stirrings is correct. It functions as both: dig for a piece and find a card to play. I realize now there's a good chunk of occurrences in Modern where I take a land or a simple mill rock just so I have another card to play right-then-and-there. Yes sometimes I take a bridge and can't play it, but a majority of the time I'm taking a card I want to play right away. The "tutor to top" effect of E Tutor was just... underwhelming. You're welcome to try it, as well as stirrings, and let me know which you feel better about (Take notes!).

Now, good catch on Unexpectedly Absent. This is a sweet one. Double white you may find quite rough to cast but other than that this serves almost the same purpose. I would still rather put all my eggs on Abrupt Decay killing that thing that needs to be killed and not get countered by daze/fow/flusterstorm. We don't have much mana to pay taxes with, so that worries me. Again, you should test and let me know. I like to pretend that card could have been an Abrupt Decay everytime I cast then keep score, which was better or it made no difference.

Dammit shadowgripper! Why don't you just post 5 minutes before me and summarize every point I was going to make anyway! :tongue: Ugh, this guy acts like he invented the deck and then won a GP with it or something...

[jjflipped]

Dammit shadowgripper! Why don't you just post 5 minutes before me and summarize every point I was going to make anyway! :tongue: Ugh, this guy acts like he invented the deck and then won a GP with it or something...

Right? Next he will tell us he is the one that bought out the internet of Field of Dreams!

[phonics]

Right? Next he will tell us he is the one that bought out the internet of Field of Dreams!

Is it being developed by anyone else other than here?

[Zapp]

Unexpectedly Absent can also protect lock pieces. Could replace welding jar maybe?

[bruizar]

Unexpectedly absent was exactly the card I was looking for. With this card it's possible to move into a non-green build. Abrupt Decay is still a safer bet, but atleast were not pigeonholed into certain colors now. I hope that we can have 2 healthy discussions in parallel, without constantly comparing the builds by saying one version is suboptimal to the other. The idea is to develop what is possible in the lantern shell given the availability of field of dreams.Much luck this weekend to those that can get some play time with the deck. I think we're all very curious how it goes.

[Alexeezay]

Arboria (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arboria&v=card&s=cname) looks fun here, resolve it & just mill them down. Probably 1 mana too expensive.

[Cybey]

Arboria (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arboria&v=card&s=cname) looks fun here, resolve it & just mill them down. Probably 1 mana too expensive.

I would love to play Arboria in Legacy! <3

[jrsthethird]

Arboria (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Arboria&v=card&s=cname) looks fun here, resolve it & just mill them down. Probably 1 mana too expensive.

Likely 1 Enchant World too many.

[Cire]

Just as Pure Theory Craft and no testing I wanted to see if I could build a list with Enlightened Tutor and Eight Free-Trips. The idea being that enlightened tutor is slower than Ancient Stirrings, but more versatile, and that the free-trips would serve to speed it up.

It ends up being really anemic looking. Below is the Theory Craft if you are interested -

TL:DR summary is that Enlightened tutor and Eight Free-Trips is probably not a direction this deck wants to go.

-
Number of cards you want to see by which turn, and in parenthesis how many cards you need in the deck for a good chance, rounded up, to see those cards by that turn (under the assumption that you be on the play, but you will have seen an additional card due to free cantrips, which are included to speed up enlightened tutor)

1 Discard by turn 2 (7)
1 Lantern of Field of Dreams by turn 2 (7)
1 Board control by turn 3 (6)
2 Mill Rock by turn 4 (11)
3 Lands, or Opals, by turn 4 (17)
1 Bridge by turn 5 (5)
1 Additional board control by turn 5 (4, considering already included numbers)
1 Additional discard by turn 6 (4, considering already included numbers)
1 Mill Rock by turn 6 (3, considering already included numbers)
1 "Free Draw" (8, for assumption provided above).

The tricky question is what does enlightened tutor count as. . . technically it can count as everything in the above list except Discard and Free Draw. To make the above deck's number to make sense however, you need to state that enlightened bridge counts, rounded up, as 3 of everything (except discard and free-trips).

(here is the calculation)
(10 Discard) + (7 Lantern-X) + (14 Mill Rock-X) + (17 Land/Opals-X) + (5 Bridge-X) + (10 Board Control-X) + 8 (Free-trip) + 4 (tutor) = 60
Or just 75 + -5X = 60
X= 3

So. . . the deck break down is:

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Streetwraith
4 Lantern
11 Mill Rocks
10 Discard
2 Bridge
7 Board Control
14 Lands/Opals

If you notice, Field of Dreams is no longer needed in this deck, and it becomes WB. You lose Academy Ruins, which I admit is a big loss, but you need the two colors to run the lower amount of lands. Additionally Bridge is Board Control, so you could include a full set and reduce the Board Control number to 5. Some, might argue that there is to much Mill Rocks in the deck. Our experts tell us that 8 is sufficient to control the board. I disagree from personal experience, but to make this a serious attempt at Theory Craft I will trust our experts and reduce the number of rocks from 11 to 8. That gives us room to beef up the lands, which despite theory still seem like too little to reach 3 by 4 (if you are wondering why it so little it is due to the two assumption that (1) 4 Enlightened Tutor's in this deck count as 3 of everything else, and that (2) you will draw 1 more card than usual due to free-trips in the deck.) Additionally, 10 Discard might be too much, and this deck still needs 1x Surgical Extraction and 1x Nihil Spellbomb, so you could reduce those numbers to 8. Additionally, if you are running Probe, you might give thought to running Cabal Therapy, which I am not including at the moment. So you end up with the following:

4 Street wraith

4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mox Opal
2 Pithing Needle
3 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction

4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Ancient Den
1 Plains
1 Swamp

[phonics]

null brooch?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Voltaic Key?

[bruizar]

Null Brooch is certainly strong provided you don't die a timely creature death. I've played Null Brooch in the past and 4 mana is pushing it, but who knows.

For what would you use Voltaic Key though?.. All it does is untap a Bell or Shredder.

[Jain_Mor]

Surprised no ones mentioned Sensei's divining top.

It let's draw the card you want off of ETutor straight away, and it digs really well with you mill effects.

[Svyelunite]

Surprised no ones mentioned Sensei's divining top.

It let's draw the card you want off of ETutor straight away, and it digs really well with you mill effects.

The biggest issue with sdt is you frequently want to pithing needle it.

[shadowgripper]

The biggest issue with Top is it does nothing if you have Lantern in play, which is most of the time cause we run lots of copies.

Null brooch costs too much mana. 4 is too much for this deck unless we invest more into sol lands, which isn't entirely necessary. 3 mana is rough but doable.

Voltaic Key does nothing.

Card suggestions arent what this deck needs. Take the core, that sultai deck i referred to a few times ago, add some good aoe wipe cards in the board with graveyard hate. Run that against the decks. Testing will show how the deck operates and what cards are important. You'll lose a lot at first because of the complexity of the deck, but that doesn't mean its bad. This deck is stupidly hard to pilot regardless of format.

[bruizar]

Agreed. Also for those offering card suggestions. At least put in some mental effort to explain why you think the card is good in the first place. Offer some substance/effort.

[Mamemoo]

Seeing its successes in modern got me interested in its potential in legacy. I'm pretty sure this has been already been discussed ad nauseam but one major problem I can see are cantrips, fetchlands, and SDT-like cards basically playing around top deck interaction. Moreover, early FOW and other cheap permissions can disrupt our plan pretty easily and prevent us from assembling the combo. Maybe one of the angle of attack we can use is a heavy hand disruption + counter package including hymns and FOW. Two copies of field of dreams could be used to pitch for FOW. A sample potential cards I can think of:

Top control:
Lantern of Insight
Field of Dreams
Codex Shredder
Ghoulcaller's Bell

Control:
Pithing Needle
Force of will
Ensnaring Bridge

Search:
Ancient stirrings
Brainstorm
Ponder
Enlightened tutor
Infernal tutor

Mana ramp:
Mox Opal
Lotus Petal

Hand disruption:
Thoughtseize
Duress
IoK
Surgical Extraction
Hymn

Land:
Academy ruins
Artifact lands
Dual lands
Fetch lands
City of traitors
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Maze of Ith
Wasteland
Rishadan port(?)

[bruizar]

@Svelunite:

Any news from the tournament you went to this weekend?

[Infinitium]

Any particular reason UWx versions don't run Engineered Explosives and Terminus? EE is a recurrable answer to Counterbalance, Chalice@1 and flipped Delvers handily enough, and Terminus is a 1-mana answer for everything that can be rapidly dug out using top manipulation and SDT. It could probably replace a few of the Ensnaring Bridges at the least.

[Admiral Nobeard]

The main reason that EE isn't played on one is because it kills the majority of our board as well. I play Pixy Stix in modern and EE is almost every reason I lose some games if they power it out early enough. For the deck to want to play it main or side, it would have to EE for zero, or two or greater to avoid killing itself. Terminus can be good, but in every case, Abrupt Decay is always better, whether targeting Counterbalance, Delver, or Chalice.

[Cire]

RE: My test list with 8 free-trips and 4 enlightened tutor. The deck wasn't as bad as I thought it would be - however, not running field of dreams was a mistake - while tutor can search up Lantern, tutor is doing so much work in that list, and you want lantern effect out so early that you need to make room for at least 6 of them. Additionally running Academy ruins is a must. As such that list needs to include 2 Field of Dreams, 2 non-Academy ruin lands and 1-2 Academy Ruins. Finding 5-6 spots in that list would be rough.

RE: Another theoretical test list I decided to see if it could work is to see if I can include FOW in the main deck. FOW, to me seems almost necessary, seeing how many spells and effects hate on this deck and how necessary some of our cards are.

For any deck to run FOW effectively, needs to run at least 18 blue cards, preferably 20. Let's say that we are running 4 Field of Dreams, 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze (fow and daze replacing your discard spells at least theoretically for now), and 4 Brainstorm (instead of tutor/stirrings). That still leaves us needing 2-4 more blue cards. I found the following: Cathartic Adept and Screeching Sliver. They can replace some mill rocks. They are obviously not as good as they can be removed and they have summoning sickness - but they can pitch to blue.

The theoretical list is:


4x Screeching Sliver

2x Lantern
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Pithing Needle
3x Mox Opal
1x Lotus Petal
3x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Field of Dreams
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

15x Lands
2x Academy Ruins


Initial Impressions are that the counter spells are usually weaker than simple discard - but occasionally they save your ass. I think it would be preferable to include both. As such, I made the below list, which is slower in that it does not run mana acceleration:


4x Screeching Sliver

2x Lantern
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Pithing Needle
3x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Field of Dreams
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize

16x Lands
2x Academy Ruins


And thus made room for four discard spells. This is currently the list I am testing.

Again, these are very theoretical lists, that I am still fiddling with and testing, just wanted to share the thought process of why I made them and how, especially the previous free-trip version. I am actually hoping to see later whether I can turn the above test list into a free-trip version (replacing brainstorm and 8 other cards with Tutor/Probe/Wraith). The tutor is almost necessary now since brainstorm doesn't dig enough (compared to stirrings) to get Ensnaring bridge which is necessary. We are playing 19 blue in the list above. Force can still function with 18, so here is with 3 tutors included. (we can reduce to 2 pithing needle due to the tutor IMO)


3x Screeching Sliver

3x Enlightened tutor
2x Lantern
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Surgical Extraction
4x Field of Dreams
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Thoughtseize

16x Lands
2x Academy Ruins

[Svyelunite]

Report from event this weekend. For reference here is the decklist.
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Ghoulcaller's Bell
4x Codex Shredder
2x Field of Dreams
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Opal
Lotus Petal
2x Welding Jar
3x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Abrupt Decay

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
Underground Sea
Tropical Island
Forest
Swamp
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
2x City of Traitors
2x Academy Ruins
Sheltered Valley

SB:
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Flusterstorm
2x Arcane Laboratory
Nature's Claim
2x Golgari Charm
Pithing Needle
2x Grafdigger's Cage
Relic of Progenitus
Engineered Plague
Darkblast

Round 1: Death and Taxes
G1: Won die roll. I mulliganed to 5 and kept a sketchy hand. It had Lantern, TS, Bayou, UG Sea, Needle. I scry'd a Shredder to the top. TS revealed a hand with Aether Vial, Mom, Thalia, Karakas, SFM, Port and Wasteland. I figured I was already dead, but took the Thalia and crossed my fingers. Basically the rest of the game involved me not having enough mana to operate and dieing to a Batterskull.
G2: Kept 7 and steamrolled him with a turn 2 Bridge (City of Traitors is great in this deck) into the full lantern lock. He never drew a non-land the rest of the game.
G3: He mulliganed and scry'd his card to the top. He played Plains --> Aether Vial. I decided to lead on Shredder and hit him blind. It was a Karakas and his second turn revealed he had no land drop, but a second Aether vial. I got 2 more mill rocks and a Lantern thanks to Mox Opal off the top. He managed to get a Revoker, Serra's Avenger, 2x Mom and a Wingmare in play from the Aether Vials before I finally found Needle to shut them down (all the while keeping him from finding another land). Golgari Charm cleaned up all but the Angel, and on 1 life I finally found a Bridge. I had it from there because I never let him have another land.

Round 2: RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell (1-0)
This round was strange because assuming I got an early Bridge, I figured I was unlikely to die, but her deck had a few spicy treats like Warstorm Surge and Bogardan Hellkite, so I could even die without being attacked. Also, without counterspells, I couldn't really stop her from resolving either of the namesake cards. Additionally, she had both 3x Progenitus and 2x Emrakul in the deck, so Milling her out was going to be tough.
G1 + G2: Basically, I got a bridge quickly (G2 off of a Show and Tell) and established enough of the Lantern lock that I could make sure she didn't draw Warstorm Surge. I had to mill + surgical the Emrakuls and then slowly set up a board position where the only cards left in her deck were the 3 Progenitus. Then with Codex Shredder recurring Duress/Surgical I was able to strip enough cards out of her hand so that she couldn't discard Progenitus EoT and she decked. Actually went to time because of how long it takes to create this exact scenario. Fortunately this deck isn't a main stay of Legacy events.

Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-0)
G1: Win the die roll. I mull to 6, keeping an ok set of TS, Lantern, Shredder, 3 lands. Scry reveals a Bridge, so I figure I'm pretty safe. TS reveals opponent has TS, Hymn, DRS, Goyf, Decay, Grove, BS Mire. I'm boned... Took the TS. His DRS leands into a Hymn (that gets my Bridge) and he knows to AD the Lantern the following turn so I can't control my draws and get back into it. I died pretty quick to that Goyf.
G2: On play, keep 7. I decide to lead on Lantern over TS because he isn't a combo deck. Probably a mistake because he had TS for me and took mine. T2 I played a Needle on Liliana (revealed from Lantern) and a Shredder. He plays a DRS and a second TS taking my Bridge. I found another Bridge eventually, and figured I had it stabilized at 8 life. I did not because before I could find another Surgical Extraction to take out his Punishing Fires, he burned me out with the recursion loop.

Round 4: Elves (2-1)
I don't remember all the specifics of this matchup super well, but I know I lost the Die roll and kept 7.
G1: He had a turn 3 Craterhoof kill that I wasn't remotely able to fight back against.
G2: I kept a sketchy 6 with Bridge, Needle, City of Traitors, Mox Opal, Welding Jar, and Thoughtseize. Scry revealed a second Bridge, which I kept on top. I led with the City, Opal, Jar, Needled naming Wirewood, and TS'd him to take away GSZ. Turn 2 I slammed the Bridge, Turn 3 revealed a second Needle, which I put on Wirewood again so he couldn't Rec Sage out of it. The second bridge pretty much sealed the deal. Eventually I drew some mill rocks, and managed to mill him out without ever drawing a Lantern.
G3: This game probably shouldn't count because his turn 1 Llanowar elves died to my Turn 1 of Tree of Tales -> Mox Opal -> Lotus Petal -> Engineered Plague on Elves. I set up the Lantern Lock on the following 2 turns and made sure he didn't draw Rec Sage or GSZ. He tried to use DRS and Nettle Sentinel to get some game going, but a Golgari Charm took care of that nonsense :)

I finished 4th (this store just did standings/prizes instead of a Top cut because we only got 16 ppl). Overall, I think the deck ran pretty well. The MD is probably pretty good for a typical Open or IQ meta (obviously this meta was a little out of the norm, but that happens with smaller events). I don't think I had an optimal SB. Flusterstorm seems like it is probably not worth the space. Hand disruption and Arcane Laboratory are probably a better plan against decks like Storm or Omnitell. Golgari Charm is the perfect split card of extra enchantment hate/sweeper we need. I would suggest playing a 3rd if you expect a lot of Elves/DnT/Goblins. I think it's possible a 4th AD could have been in the place of the Nature's Claim. Grafdigger's Cage is great, the Relic would function better as a Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt. I'm not completely sold on Engineered Plague because it's only good against a small portion of decks. I think Ghirapur Aether Grid would serve a similar function against a lot more decks, but it would make our mana a lot harder to manage. Food for thought. Feel free to ask questions! :smile:

[shadowgripper]

Svyelunite, thanks for the write-up. Glad to see that list is working out for you. I'm wondering what we can do about Jund :(

A few questions for you:

1) How important did you like the two Welding Jar main? Did they ever make a difference game 1. Would you be cool shaving one or both in favor of, idk, lotus petal or anything else?

2) 17 Lands is good, 5 are colorless so I can't imagine you ran into mana issues that often. Do you feel you have the right ratio of colored sources? Would you run more or less City; two seems perfect. What about artifact lands, more or less? How about cutting the second Bayou for a Delta?

3) 7 discard spells and 6 lanterns is the sweet spot don't you think? I also like the split of 3 decay and 3 needle to answer problem permanents.

4) SB: I like the idea of adding the fourth decay as it can be important. Swapping Relic to Spellbomb is also a good idea. Should we add another way to deal with creature decks, Toxic Deluge maybe? Do you think Arcane Lab hits enough relevant decks right now, if so what are you using it for? Could you write up a 15 card sideboard you'd play with now?

5) Finally, Do you feel this deck could function if we ran countermagic of any kind? Do you think we require access to tutors like E Tutor or Infernal Tutor to be consistent?

Thanks for your input :) You may convince me to play this in Seattle.

[bruizar]

@Svelunite:

Thanks for the report Svelunite! In addition to the questions of Shadowgripper, would you consider adding 1 or 2 Pyxis of Pandemonium in exchange for Ghoulcaller's Bell or Codex Shredder to deal with Punishing Fires, Emrakul and Progenitus?

@Cire:
We know that using creatures has consequences, so I won't point those out, but if you really go for Screeching Sliver, I would consider Mutavault so you have multiple millers and can sometimes dodge summoning sickness.

[Ralf]

Hello,

I'm playing with a few tweaks from previous list:

+4 Inquisition
- 4 Thoughtseize

I've found that the 2 life losses could be a problem in some MU (tempo/burn).
The fact that Inquisition only hits <=3CMC has yet to be an issue.

+4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
-4 Ghoulcaller's bell

The exile effect is overall an improvment over the bell. I have yet to face the use case where exiling my top card is a liability (recurring an artifact with academy).
It better deals with any grave strategies which are troublesome for this deck.

+1 Wasteland
-1 Academy

The deck relies less and less on blue and the welding Jar are providing the same effect. Also I like the 1-of wasteland, just in case (poison, greedy keep from my opponent, etc...)

My SB looks like this for now:

2 Grafdigger
2 Sun Droplet
2 Trinisphere (not sure but against storm, it is better than nothing)
2 Surgical extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Decay
2 Krosan
2 Toughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

I would give City of Traitors a go to see if I like it or not.

Keep testing !

[Svyelunite]

Svyelunite, thanks for the write-up. Glad to see that list is working out for you. I'm wondering what we can do about Jund :(

A few questions for you:

1) How important did you like the two Welding Jar main? Did they ever make a difference game 1. Would you be cool shaving one or both in favor of, idk, lotus petal or anything else?

2) 17 Lands is good, 5 are colorless so I can't imagine you ran into mana issues that often. Do you feel you have the right ratio of colored sources? Would you run more or less City; two seems perfect. What about artifact lands, more or less? How about cutting the second Bayou for a Delta?

3) 7 discard spells and 6 lanterns is the sweet spot don't you think? I also like the split of 3 decay and 3 needle to answer problem permanents.

4) SB: I like the idea of adding the fourth decay as it can be important. Swapping Relic to Spellbomb is also a good idea. Should we add another way to deal with creature decks, Toxic Deluge maybe? Do you think Arcane Lab hits enough relevant decks right now, if so what are you using it for? Could you write up a 15 card sideboard you'd play with now?

5) Finally, Do you feel this deck could function if we ran countermagic of any kind? Do you think we require access to tutors like E Tutor or Infernal Tutor to be consistent?

Thanks for your input :) You may convince me to play this in Seattle.

For what its worth, Jund wasn't seeing a whole lot of play before DTT existed, and saw almost none before the Ban, so I doubt it'll come back too much. Might have to pay close attention to the SCG IQs and St. Louis Open to see if it becomes a thing.

1) How important did you like the two Welding Jar main? Did they ever make a difference game 1. Would you be cool shaving one or both in favor of, idk, lotus petal or anything else?

They did not come up all that much. That said, I only played one deck with Abrupt Decay which is where I think they're most important. I'm not sure if more Lotus Petals would help much or not, because mana bottleneck wasn't much of an issue. Honestly, beside turning on Mox Opal, I don't think they're any better than Dark Ritual would be. Now that I mention it, even faster mana like that could be playable. It's not like we usually need the extra explosive mana past the turn we force out a Bridge anyway.

2) 17 Lands is good, 5 are colorless so I can't imagine you ran into mana issues that often. Do you feel you have the right ratio of colored sources? Would you run more or less City; two seems perfect. What about artifact lands, more or less? How about cutting the second Bayou for a Delta?

The number of Artifact Lands felt correct. The second Bayou could probably go, another Fetch would be fine. I'm also not convinced Sheltered Valley does enough in this deck because it felt hard to keep myself under 4 lands, especially when we got into the Lantern Lock scenario and we're just digging to keep them off of relevant spells. It may be better served as a Wasteland or something like that.

3) 7 discard spells and 6 lanterns is the sweet spot don't you think? I also like the split of 3 decay and 3 needle to answer problem permanents.

Yessir

4) SB: I like the idea of adding the fourth decay as it can be important. Swapping Relic to Spellbomb is also a good idea. Should we add another way to deal with creature decks, Toxic Deluge maybe? Do you think Arcane Lab hits enough relevant decks right now, if so what are you using it for? Could you write up a 15 card sideboard you'd play with now?

Deluge could be ok. I think Golgari charm serves very well against the decks where a sweeper is good, but a variety of sweepers can be useful in a format as diverse as Legacy. I think Arcane Laboratory is our best chance at fighting decks like Storm and Sneak/Show. If you resolve it early, they are so neutered it gives you forever to set up, and hopefully deny them a way to ever get it off the table.

3x Golgari Charm
Abrupt Decay
Pithing Needle
2x Grafdigger's Cage
Tormod's Crypt
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Arcane Laboratory
Engineered Plague
2x Welding Jar (this assumes we take out the MD Jars for something else)

5) Finally, Do you feel this deck could function if we ran countermagic of any kind? Do you think we require access to tutors like E Tutor or Infernal Tutor to be consistent?

It would function, but I'd be afraid of the scenario where you're barely alive hiding behind a bridge and draw a counterspell you can't cast and therefore can't empty your hand. I don't think we need it either, the key is to strip their hand and establish the lock. The only time a counter is useful is if they're on a combo deck that we can't interact with fast enough. Storm, Reanimator and Sneak/Show are the only one's that see much play that really have a chance to do this, and they are rarely T1 decks. More like T3 on average. I wouldn't change my deck to beat Oops All Spells! or Belcher.

I don't think we need the E Tutor package. The Green version with Stirrings is probably good enough. A 1-of Infernal could be pretty good, but definitely not necessary. It would need to be tested to see if it improves the decks win%.

[Svyelunite]

@Svelunite:

Thanks for the report Svelunite! In addition to the questions of Shadowgripper, would you consider adding 1 or 2 Pyxis of Pandemonium in exchange for Ghoulcaller's Bell or Codex Shredder to deal with Punishing Fires, Emrakul and Progenitus?

Def not as a replacement. Maybe in addition to them if we ultimately decide 8 rocks isn't enough, but I think they'd be the worst of the bunch. Emrakul and Progenitus are not a problem. They are a nuisance because they make it take longer to finish the game, but don't actually make it any harder to win. Punishing Fire is a little annoying, but ultimately I think being able to recur my own artifacts is worth more.

[Svyelunite]

The fact that Inquisition only hits <=3CMC has yet to be an issue.

Isn't Force of Will one of the premier cards to deal with in order to stick a Bridge? Decks like RUG or BUG Delver seem to be a nightmare if we can't get a Bridge down on time. Also, what about Dark Petition from storm? Or Sneak Attack? JTMS? Admittedly, I haven't tested these matchups yet, but these all seem like lynchpin cards IoK can't hit.

[Ralf]

Isn't Force of Will one of the premier cards to deal with in order to stick a Bridge? Decks like RUG or BUG Delver seem to be a nightmare if we can't get a Bridge down on time. Also, what about Dark Petition from storm? Or Sneak Attack? JTMS? Admittedly, I haven't tested these matchups yet, but these all seem like lynchpin cards IoK can't hit.

You are not naked either:
1) Duress is still x3,
2) They don't always have the blue card to pitch
3) Academy can also help
4) You are usually already "piloting" their draw & you know their hands when you try to resolve a bridge.

But hell yeah, we will lose to FOW from times to times.

Dark petition is not played in legacy to my knowledge (Infernal tutor is).

Sneak attack can be "needled" as so can be Jace.

Testing will tell anyway.

[Cire]

@Cire:
We know that using creatures has consequences, so I won't point those out, but if you really go for Screeching Sliver, I would consider Mutavault so you have multiple millers and can sometimes dodge summoning sickness.

Good idea. And it's not like I want to use the sliver - only included it in the theoretical list in order to inflate the blue count.

@Svyelunite:

Outside mana-fixing properties of Opal - how often did you find accel to be helpful and useful. (Trying to figure out whether accel should be considered a requirement, or whether we can afford to take them out for more protection (i.e. for the theoretical FOW version - I would love to see if I can fit in 7 Discard, 4 Force of Will. (currently have 4 Discard, 3 Daze, 4 Force - can't take out Daze as Daze is for the blue count).

[Firefraise]

It feels wrong but do you think Ashiok could be put in the sideboard if they board some heavy artifact hate? I also ask for the modern version of the deck as I feel it might be a less terrible idea there.

@Bruizar, I recall you considered Unmask, is it bad/good/ok in a black based build? It feels to me like it's a very difficult card to use.

[Cire]

It feels wrong but do you think Ashiok could be put in the sideboard if they board some heavy artifact hate? I also ask for the modern version of the deck as I feel it might be a less terrible idea there.

@Bruizar, I recall you considered Unmask, is it bad/good/ok in a black based build? It feels to me like it's a very difficult card to use.

In my testing, in every situation I had Unmask (as a replacement for duress) I would have rather had duress. I never tested a build where duress was ontop of other protection. So far 7-8 protection is what this deck runs. I prefer 8, but the experts are okay with 7. Currently, as you could see above, I am trying to see if I can insert 4 Force of Will on top of the 7 discard spells (not their yet).

As noticed - the problem of the counterspells is the antisynergy with the bridge.

[Darkenslight]

In my testing, in every situation I had Unmask (as a replacement for duress) I would have rather had duress. I never tested a build where duress was ontop of other protection. So far 7-8 protection is what this deck runs. I prefer 8, but the experts are okay with 7. Currently, as you could see above, I am trying to see if I can insert 4 Force of Will on top of the 7 discard spells (not their yet).

As noticed - the problem of the counterspells is the antisynergy with the bridge.

I wonder if the recently-printed Transgress the Mind might be a helpful discard spell?

[jrsthethird]

I'm going to start testing this tonight, so take my comments with a grain of salt. I'm starting with a slight variation of MagicJaPa's Unexpectedly Absent list on page 9.


RE: Another theoretical test list I decided to see if it could work is to see if I can include FOW in the main deck. FOW, to me seems almost necessary, seeing how many spells and effects hate on this deck and how necessary some of our cards are.

For any deck to run FOW effectively, needs to run at least 18 blue cards, preferably 20. Let's say that we are running 4 Field of Dreams, 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze (fow and daze replacing your discard spells at least theoretically for now), and 4 Brainstorm (instead of tutor/stirrings). That still leaves us needing 2-4 more blue cards. I found the following: Cathartic Adept and Screeching Sliver. They can replace some mill rocks. They are obviously not as good as they can be removed and they have summoning sickness - but they can pitch to blue.

Street Wraith is probably bad, but Gitaxian Probe is blue and pitches to FOW. That may open up the possibility for 1-2 Therapies (SB or main), since they can be back-breaking if they hit multiples.


I had to mill + surgical the Emrakuls and then slowly set up a board position where the only cards left in her deck were the 3 Progenitus. Then with Codex Shredder recurring Duress/Surgical I was able to strip enough cards out of her hand so that she couldn't discard Progenitus EoT and she decked. Actually went to time because of how long it takes to create this exact scenario. Fortunately this deck isn't a main stay of Legacy events.

Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-0)
G1: Win the die roll. I mull to 6, keeping an ok set of TS, Lantern, Shredder, 3 lands. Scry reveals a Bridge, so I figure I'm pretty safe. TS reveals opponent has TS, Hymn, DRS, Goyf, Decay, Grove, BS Mire. I'm boned... Took the TS. His DRS leands into a Hymn (that gets my Bridge) and he knows to AD the Lantern the following turn so I can't control my draws and get back into it. I died pretty quick to that Goyf.
G2: On play, keep 7. I decide to lead on Lantern over TS because he isn't a combo deck. Probably a mistake because he had TS for me and took mine. T2 I played a Needle on Liliana (revealed from Lantern) and a Shredder. He plays a DRS and a second TS taking my Bridge. I found another Bridge eventually, and figured I had it stabilized at 8 life. I did not because before I could find another Surgical Extraction to take out his Punishing Fires, he burned me out with the recursion loop.

I plan on testing a single Pyxis main (with E. Tutor) in the event I run into either of these situations. Emrakul can be strategically Surgicaled, but if Progenitus is running around more often than before, Infinite Obliteration deals with that pretty handily. As far as P. Fire, the white build gives Meddling Mage in the SB, which should stick since they'll side out removal and we should be able to prevent them from finding any other burn.

Slaughter Games is an expensive and terribly splashed catch-all for these things, but I doubt that's worth it.


Dark petition is not played in legacy to my knowledge (Infernal tutor is).

It's a 1-2 of in ANT and a Wish target in TES. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be a threat to this deck.


It feels wrong but do you think Ashiok could be put in the sideboard if they board some heavy artifact hate? I also ask for the modern version of the deck as I feel it might be a less terrible idea there.

@Bruizar, I recall you considered Unmask, is it bad/good/ok in a black based build? It feels to me like it's a very difficult card to use.

Ashiok pitches to both FOW and Unmask!

[shadowgripper]

Pretty sure we can run Chalice of the Void to land on 1 to stop pesky cantrips. Chalice shuts down a lot of things that are annoying in legacy.

Still looking for a good SB answer to Jund.

[Fox]

I wonder if the recently-printed Transgress the Mind might be a helpful discard spell?
Appetite for Brains could also be considered if you're going down this path. Bonus points for giving the deck more Halloween art for the upcoming holiday.

[Michael Keller]

Pretty sure we can run Chalice of the Void to land on 1 to stop pesky cantrips. Chalice shuts down a lot of things that are annoying in legacy.

It also happens to shut down the core engine of the deck, in addition to all of its key spells. Even as a defensive addition it's too anti-synergistic give the longevity of games can play out. Clearly, you wouldn't drop it in the first few turns - I get that. Unfortunately, that's really where cantrips shine to setup the mid-game and sculpt early enough. So playing a mid to late game Chalice isn't really doing anything anyhow and you're better off continuing the path of milling an opponent out slowly as usual.

[jungleman3955]

This thread is cool so I thought I would contribute my take:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Codex Shredder
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Field of Dreams
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland

Sideboard 15
2 Flusterstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Engineered Plague
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Misdirection

[MagicJaPa]

I was looking for ways to empty the hand for Bridge in versions running Counters and found Gustha's Scepter. It can also be used to protect important pieces against discard spells like Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.
If I wanted to use Force of Will, I'd probably use Transmute Artifact to have more blue cards. It could be good with things like Tooth of Chiss-Goria that is free to cast, but can be transmuted to a Bridge or any other needed artifact (Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Ethersworn Canonist, Cursed Totem, Defense Grid, Trinisphere, Orbs of Warding).

@shadowgripper
Against Jund, Leyline of Sanctity seems really good against discard spells, Liliana and Punishing Fire.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I was looking for ways to empty the hand for Bridge in versions running Counters and found Gustha's Scepter. It can also be used to protect important pieces against discard spells like Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.

So basically the Scepter is there just to protect against spot discard? I can also see it working very well against the aggro matchup as a way to attempt to empty your hand, but in the white splash version, Peace of Mind works better because you can dump your hand while gaining life.

[bruizar]

I was eyeing Serum Powder myself. Helps your openers, and this deck can get mill them before you draw any.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I was eyeing Serum Powder myself. Helps your openers, and this deck can get mill them before you draw any.

Maybe. But Serum Powder wasn't really made for this deck. It may help the opening hand, but it's not going to drastically give you an upper hand like in other decks it's in, such as Leylines.

[bruizar]

Maybe. But Serum Powder wasn't really made for this deck. It may help the opening hand, but it's not going to drastically give you an upper hand like in other decks it's in, such as Leylines.

Leylines and Serum Powders go together like peanut butter and jelly though. The bigger problem is whether or not there is enough space in the deck to fit them.

[Admiral Nobeard]

Leylines and Serum Powders go together like peanut butter and jelly though. The bigger problem is whether or not there is enough space in the deck to fit them.

That too. And at three mana, I'd rather be playing something like Crucible of Worlds for a more controlled game to recur Wasteland or Ghost Quarter with repeated use rather than a one shot chance at a better hand.

[bruizar]

That too. And at three mana, I'd rather be playing something like Crucible of Worlds for a more controlled game to recur Wasteland or Ghost Quarter with repeated use rather than a one shot chance at a better hand.

Well, you aren't actually ever drawing Serum Powder with Ghoulcaller's Bell, Codex Shredder and Lantern of Insight shuffles... The point is to just maximize your mulligans which also make sideboarded Leylines a lot more reliable (ergo LotV against dredge, LoS against burn).

[Admiral Nobeard]

Well, you aren't actually ever drawing Serum Powder with Ghoulcaller's Bell, Codex Shredder and Lantern of Insight shuffles... The point is to just maximize your mulligans which also make sideboarded Leylines a lot more reliable (ergo LotV against dredge, LoS against burn).

Oh yeah. Now I feel dumb.

[Cire]

Well, you aren't actually ever drawing Serum Powder with Ghoulcaller's Bell, Codex Shredder and Lantern of Insight shuffles... The point is to just maximize your mulligans which also make sideboarded Leylines a lot more reliable (ergo LotV against dredge, LoS against burn).

That seems naive - there is always a chance you can draw into on your first turn, and then you have a dead card in your hand the entire time.

Speaking of dead cards - in my testing, if you are trying to run Force of Will, you need to run some discard effects to get rid of it for Ensnaring Bridge, as such I found Chrome Mox to be a great solution.

Additionally - I have found double white hard for Unexpectedly Absent - and I've been thinking about Metamorphose. The idea is that its easy to cast, it functions as Unexpectedly Absent that can hit lands - and that after discard and with bridge in play nothing they can drop really matters.

Current Test list is: (Blue count only 16 - I hated the sliver - it was only good as a turn 1 Mill Rock or a 3rd Mill Rock. As a Mill Rock after turn 1 or as the 2nd Mill Rock it's summoning sickness was brutal. Not even counting the whole issue with removal. Anyway the difference between 16 and 20 blue cards is 3.3% of getting Force and another blue card in your hand turn 1 [16: 32.6% vs 20: 35.9%], so you're losing roughly 4 more games out of a hundred against turn 1 combo type decks.)

Latern with Force Test List no.2

4x Enlightened tutor
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Field of Dreams
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Force of Will
4x Thoughtseize
4x Metamorphose
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
2x Mox Opal
2x Pithing Needle
2x Chrome Mox
2x Lantern
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Pyxis of Pandemonium

10x Other Lands
2x City of Traitors
2x Academy Ruins

Points of notes are:

1) IMO deck runs way to little lands - would really prefer 2-3 more lands.
2) Force is really useful to have - it has saved me multiple times. Running more blue, would obviously be a plus.
3) Cabal Therapy is better than Duress in my testing - with Probe/lantern/metagame knowledge it is extremely good.
4) I really like enlightened tutor compared to stirrings.
5) running 1 Surgical is hard - wish I had room for 2
6) running 7 mill rocks is fine if you are running tutor.
7) Fields over lantern in the 4/2 split is fine, but I occasionally miss the lantern's reshuffle ability
8) Metamorphose is better than I thought it would be.
9) 6 discard plus 4 force is enough protection IMO. Thinking of cutting 1 thoughtseize for a land or surgical.
10) Again, biggest issue is that 14 lands leaves little room for artifact lands - which leaves little room for Opal. At this point Opal can be made into more lands. Chrome may be cut to 1, and if necessary can be tutored into to discard force to protect yourself under bridge.
11) While I think we run too little land - now that the deck doesn't need to provide double white or BG for one spell, makes it feel a lot smoother.

[shadowgripper]

Good catch on Metamorphose. I wonder how often/likely I want access to this over Abrupt Decay. Specifically, what cards does it hit that decay can't (and that needle cant hit).

[Cire]

Good catch on Metamorphose. I wonder how often/likely I want access to this over Abrupt Decay. Specifically, what cards does it hit that decay can't (and that needle cant hit).

Nothing much (except lands if you want to screw with people even more) - the only pluses are 1) you don't have to run green anymore and 2) it pitches to force. Thus if you are not running force, or enlightened tutor (to replace stirrings) decay is preferable, and if you are not running force but are running tutor then Unexpectedly absent is preferable.

[jjflipped]

I ended up playing this in the 5k last Sunday at the SCG Open in Indy.

The list that I ended up registering is below:

4 Lantern of Insight
3 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction

3 Mox Opal
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
2 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Torpor Orb
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Welding Jar
1 Sun Droplet
1 Cursed Scroll

Starting off the discussion, I ended up doing pretty poorly, finishing 3-5, but I learned a lot in the process. My matches were as follows:

Rd 1: Enchantress (L) - Didn't preemptively needle Helm of Obedience and was punished.
Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup.
Rd 3: MUD (W) - I was able to keep him off of chalice, and needle is great here.
Rd 4: RUG (L) - I'm bad, played worse, lost. He had a maindeck grudge.
Rd 5: Merfolk (L) - literally drew zero lands this match. Awkward. This feels like a great matchup.
Rd 6: Omnitell (L) - I stipped his hand, but couldnt get a lock assembled in time both games.
Rd 7: GW Painter (W) - This deck was awesome. I crushed it, but thats not the point.
Rd 8: MUD (L) - Game three he led on chalice 1 into 3sphere, I was just too far behind to empty my hand behind a bridge.

So, the first thing that needs to be addressed is that the deck is probably 1 mana short. I'm going to go back to playing a city of traitors. The extra mana will be a petal going in over a surgical. you only need one of that card realisically.

Next up was that the sideboard was abysmal. I boarded in the decay a LOT, and I really wanted more seals against chalices and such. This list is where I think I'm going to be at going forward.

4 Lantern of Insight
3 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction

1 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Vault of Whispers
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tree of Tales
2 Academy Ruins
1 City of Traitors

1 Abrupt Decay
3 Seal of Primordium
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Arcane Laboratory

Transmute Artifact seems like a nutty card to rebuild around, but requires a heavier blue commitment. It will be tested soon.

[shadowgripper]

Can you list off the cards named, should have named, with Pithing Needle for the matchups you listed?

Do you think 4 needles is needed or would 3 needles work? Same question for 7 lanterns or just 6? And I can probably agree with you that 8 discard spells is just fine, vs 7 discard spells.

Would maindeck Welding Jar be useful you think? Modern typically has Spellskite as a catch all, but unsure if we need that here.

Why the increase of Flusterstorm in the board? What are you worried about? Would Negate not be sufficient?

Curious how we can beat MUD, what are their angles of attack?

I think we want some number of Golgari Charm to handle D&T and Elves. Those can be brutal.

[MagicJaPa]

So basically the Scepter is there just to protect against spot discard? I can also see it working very well against the aggro matchup as a way to attempt to empty your hand, but in the white splash version, Peace of Mind works better because you can dump your hand while gaining life.

I was thinking in decks running Force of Will and possibly other counters, so it can hide the counters that are stuck in your hand to prevent creatures from attacking if you have a Bridge. The nice thing about scepter over Peace of Mind is that it can return the card to your hand. Being an artifact means more synergy with Mox Opal and Academy Ruins.


@Cire
Really nice catch on Metamorphose!
Unexpectedly Absent can be cast for 1WW to get rid of Counterbalance (Miracles has few cards with CMC 3), but despite that I think Metamorphose is better because it's easier to cast. I'll have to test.

I also really like Cabal Therapy, maybe we could run a Kher Keep to use the flashback?

[mistercakes]

I was thinking in decks running Force of Will and possibly other counters, so it can hide the counters that are stuck in your hand to prevent creatures from attacking if you have a Bridge. The nice thing about scepter over Peace of Mind is that it can return the card to your hand. Being an artifact means more synergy with Mox Opal and Academy Ruins.


@Cire
Really nice catch on Metamorphose!
Unexpectedly Absent can be cast for 1WW to get rid of Counterbalance (Miracles has few cards with CMC 3), but despite that I think Metamorphose is better because it's easier to cast. I'll have to test.

I also really like Cabal Therapy, maybe we could run a Kher Keep to use the flashback?

looking at this thread from time to time, interested in how things could work out.

would there be any value in having sb gaddock teegs? they would probably board out their removal after g1, and he can shut down a lot of unfair cards.

[QQQ]

Has Dakra Mystic been tried?

[Cire]

Has Dakra Mystic been tried?

Why would it be? It's a worse Cathartic Adept / Screeching Sliver. And I did test the sliver, my testing showed that it was only good as a turn 1 Mill Rock or a 3rd Mill Rock. As a Mill Rock after turn 1 or as the 2nd Mill Rock it's summoning sickness was brutal. Not even counting the whole issue with removal. The only plus to running it was to inflate your blue count - but the 3.3% gain the preventing first turn plays (chance to have Force plus another blue card if you have the following number of blue cards including force in your hand turn 1: 16: 32.6% vs 20: 35.9%) was not worth how bad it was compared to regular mill rocks.

[Admiral Nobeard]

looking at this thread from time to time, interested in how things could work out.

would there be any value in having sb gaddock teegs? they would probably board out their removal after g1, and he can shut down a lot of unfair cards.

That might be a good idea. It worked years ago with the Phyrexian Negator decks and it should still work now, as long as it's a silver bullet. I'd try 2-3 in the side and see how that goes. Hell, it just about shuts down Omnitell, Sneak Attack (the card itself), a large portion of Mud, a lot of 12 Post, and Storm so long as they don't kill him or bounce him before the kill.

[jrsthethird]

That might be a good idea. It worked years ago with the Phyrexian Negator decks and it should still work now, as long as it's a silver bullet. I'd try 2-3 in the side and see how that goes. Hell, it just about shuts down Omnitell, Sneak Attack (the card itself), a large portion of Mud, a lot of 12 Post, and Storm so long as they don't kill him or bounce him before the kill.

There are a few reasons why I don't think Teeg is a good choice here:

First off, you say silver bullet, but then mention the possibility of running 3. Am I misunderstanding what's meant by "silver bullet"? Regardless, we don't have a way to search him up so running 2-3 would be necessary as a sideboard plan. Other than that, GW is very odd for this deck to want to cast, especially turns 1/2 where he'll have the most impact.

There are three builds being tested right now, mainly centered around key removal spells: U/b running Force of Will and Metamorphose, UBg running Abrupt Decay and Ancient Stirrings, and UWb running Enlightened Tutor and Unexpectedly Absent. Obviously he doesn't fit in the blue-heavy version, but neither of the other versions want to run both green and white. Considering the BG needed for Decay, G for Stirrings, B for discard spells, and U for Field/Academy Ruins, even with the Opals, it seems a little tight to get a white source in there. Similarly, finding room for a green source when you need WW, W, B, and U on such a tight mana base is rough. Also, the "X clause" on Teeg doesn't go well with Unexpectedly Absent.

This is especially important when you consider our deck is light on lands to begin with, and we're running some amount of colorless ability lands in addition to Sol lands for extra speed. 4 colors just doesn't cut it.

I'm testing the Tutor version now, and I'm playing with Meddling Mage in the sideboard. It has a similar job, shutting down key spells, but in a different way. There's actually only a couple spells in any given deck we care about that can break the lock, and it hits all the cmc<4 culprits. He can be used proactively against combo decks too.

[Admiral Nobeard]

There are a few reasons why I don't think Teeg is a good choice here:

First off, you say silver bullet, but then mention the possibility of running 3. Am I misunderstanding what's meant by "silver bullet"? Regardless, we don't have a way to search him up so running 2-3 would be necessary as a sideboard plan. Other than that, GW is very odd for this deck to want to cast, especially turns 1/2 where he'll have the most impact.

There are three builds being tested right now, mainly centered around key removal spells: U/b running Force of Will and Metamorphose, UBg running Abrupt Decay and Ancient Stirrings, and UWb running Enlightened Tutor and Unexpectedly Absent. Obviously he doesn't fit in the blue-heavy version, but neither of the other versions want to run both green and white. Considering the BG needed for Decay, G for Stirrings, B for discard spells, and U for Field/Academy Ruins, even with the Opals, it seems a little tight to get a white source in there. Similarly, finding room for a green source when you need WW, W, B, and U on such a tight mana base is rough. Also, the "X clause" on Teeg doesn't go well with Unexpectedly Absent.

This is especially important when you consider our deck is light on lands to begin with, and we're running some amount of colorless ability lands in addition to Sol lands for extra speed. 4 colors just doesn't cut it.

I'm testing the Tutor version now, and I'm playing with Meddling Mage in the sideboard. It has a similar job, shutting down key spells, but in a different way. There's actually only a couple spells in any given deck we care about that can break the lock, and it hits all the cmc<4 culprits. He can be used proactively against combo decks too.

I think that may be the difference in our builds then. Mine is based more on the modern version now where I'm running Glimmervoid to support a five colour base. As far as silver bullet and s for me, I just use it as a card that answers multiple cards, no matter how many are in the deck, but I do see the huge problem with Test and Absent.
The version I have now is more of a FCC version. This is to keep my options open as my play testing changes. The majority of my deck is more closer to the BUG version though, so Test isn't that far of a step away. I have yet to test him on the field though, and report back afterwards.

[bruizar]

That might be a good idea. It worked years ago with the Phyrexian Negator decks and it should still work now, as long as it's a silver bullet. I'd try 2-3 in the side and see how that goes. Hell, it just about shuts down Omnitell, Sneak Attack (the card itself), a large portion of Mud, a lot of 12 Post, and Storm so long as they don't kill him or bounce him before the kill.

It doesn't stop creatures. So turbo eldrazi and MUD go largely unmolested (Only Ugin cares about Gaddock Teeg)

[Vicar in a tutu]

Given that Sensei's Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. are so prevelant in legacy, can "Legacy Lantern" ever do well in this format? I'm not being snarky, just curious. Can this be a strong deck?

[bruizar]

Miracles is a surprisingly good matchup at least for the Abrupt Decay version.

[Admiral Nobeard]

It doesn't stop creatures. So turbo eldrazi and MUD go largely unmolested (Only Ugin cares about Gaddock Teeg)

But that's why we run Ensnaring Bridge, right?


Given that Sensei's Top, Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. are so prevelant in legacy, can "Legacy Lantern" ever do well in this format? I'm not being snarky, just curious. Can this be a strong deck?

All signs point to yes, but it needs extensive playtesting. The same thing happened for the Modern version way before it ever got off of the ground. The original version was mono-black with a splash of green in the side and that was about two years ago; it's just now that the deck is becoming known and that's mainly due to people actually testing it and tuning it instead of being a fringe deck.

[phonics]

Okay, here is my rationale for Null Brooch. It seems like the worst matchups for this deck are decks that are very grindy like Jund, which plays a lot of cards that are individually strong. Between all the current forms of the deck, there is discard and permanent removal but everything in the deck is pretty much limited to a one for one trade. While Null Brooch costs 4 mana, , it would probably be run as a 2 of at most. You aren't expecting to play it early in the game, since your priorities are establishing the lock and disrupting your opponent with targeted discard (ie emptying your hand). Null Brooch serves as a way for the deck to answer a consistent pressure where single target removal struggles to keep pace, something like recursion while you wait to draw into surgical. Costing 4 mana keeps it out of rage of Abrupt Decay and your hand is already kept empty for Ensnaring Bridge. If you run the enlightened tutor package you can just run 1 to tutor for or you could Transmute Artifact for it as well. Targeted discard and removal can deal with early threats, Null Brooch can be used to seal a game. If you want an early form of protection I feel like you would have to go with daze/fow in some blue package otherwise since you are already maxing out on your early turn disruption.

[bruizar]

I'll be trying Restore Balance in the :u::w: build. It deals with everything after you stabilize into the lock and the card benefits from the fact that you empty your hand out so easily, the fact that we hardly run any lands and the fact that we are creatureless. Bad topdeck indeed, but we can mill it out most of the time (let's hope). It's a hard reset button that leaves the opponent without creatures nor cards in hand. Maybe Terminus is still better because it's a better topdeck, but I still want to test it out.

[Zerodown]

Has Dark Ritual been discussed? I casually caught someone last night in cockatrice playing a Lantern list. I was a bit impressed by Dark Ritual.

With just B he could play Bridge vs a Lands deck destroying his lands. He won the match.

He also had some sick plays turn 1 vs other decks, like swamp into Ritual then Thoughtseize, Lantern & Codex.

Could also play Bridge turn 1 for the faster aggro decks. Or various discard spells for the more combo/control decks.

Just food for thought.

[jrsthethird]

Has Dark Ritual been discussed? I casually caught someone last night in cockatrice playing a Lantern list. I was a bit impressed by Dark Ritual.

I tested Lantern against him playing a different deck and we compared lists after the match. I asked him how Ritual was, he said it was only ok. It's very explosive, but at the same time I only saw him run one Opal. Opal is permanent and taps for any color, which definitely makes up for providing one less mana turn 1.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I'll be trying Restore Balance in the :u::w: build. It deals with everything after you stabilize into the lock and the card benefits from the fact that you empty your hand out so easily, the fact that we hardly run any lands and the fact that we are creatureless. Bad topdeck indeed, but we can mill it out most of the time (let's hope). It's a hard reset button that leaves the opponent without creatures nor cards in hand. Maybe Terminus is still better because it's a better topdeck, but I still want to test it out.

I'm not sure that Restore Balance is a good option since you have to wait on it for six turns, when you could be dead in five. Maybe if you wanted to cascade into it, but then you'd have to make sure you don't cascasde into anything else first.

[Zapp]

my current monoblack lantern prison
2x Sheltered Valley
2x swamp
2x city of traitors
4x vault of wispers
4x buried ruins
2x snow covered swamp
1x tabernacle at pendrell vale
1x glacial chasm
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x cabal pit

2x pithing needle
2x the abyss
2x IOK
2x mox opal
4x lantern of insight
2x chrome mox
2x pyxis of pandemonium
2x ghoulcallers bell
4x codex shredder
2x duress
2x thoughtseize
2x ratchet bomb
4x ensnaring bridge
2x dark ritual
2x hymn to tourach
2x surgical extraction
SB:
contagion
engineered plague
pithing needle
welding jar
bojuka bog
spinning darkness

[Admiral Nobeard]

my current monoblack lantern prison
2x Sheltered Valley
2x swamp
2x city of traitors
4x vault of wispers
4x buried ruins
2x snow covered swamp
1x tabernacle at pendrell vale
1x glacial chasm
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2x cabal pit

2x pithing needle
2x the abyss
2x IOK
2x mox opal
4x lantern of insight
2x chrome mox
2x pyxis of pandemonium
2x ghoulcallers bell
4x codex shredder
2x duress
2x thoughtseize
2x ratchet bomb
4x ensnaring bridge
2x dark ritual
2x hymn to tourach
2x surgical extraction
SB:
contagion
engineered plague
pithing needle
welding jar
bojuka bog
spinning darkness

I'm not sure if I'm on board with Dark Ritual. Yeah, it seems explosive with a turn 1 Bridge, but with only two in the deck, you may as well not be running any. By the time the mid to late game comes around, you could be milling better things to later get back or drawing better things.

[jrsthethird]

My Esper list right now, just converted from Cockatrice to what I could manage in paper (slight budget, looking to fix up land and sideboard this week):

4 Lantern of Insight
2 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction

4 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
2 Academy Ruins
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
1 Rule of Law
1 Warmth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Duress
1 Storm Crow
4 Brainstorm

I don't have any duals or Zen fetches, so that was the best I could do. Ideally the duals would be swapped for the respective shocks, and Marsh Flats instead of Deltas. Also missing City of Traitors, so I went with Ancient Tomb. I have Crystal Veins too, those might be better to mitigate the life loss from both Thoughtseize and the crappy shocklands. For the sideboard, I'm missing a few cards I want: Seal of Cleansing, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, and Cursed Scroll. Still, probably taking this to an LGS for a small tourney this week. Just moved so I don't know what the store or players are like yet, so I have no metagame expectation.

Any advice/last minute changes from those who are running an Esper/Tutor build? Before someone says that a Sultai/Decay build is better, I don't have any green pieces (Stirrings/Decay/lands), so switching colors is not an option right now.

[MagicJaPa]

My Esper list right now, just converted from Cockatrice to what I could manage in paper (slight budget, looking to fix up land and sideboard this week):

4 Lantern of Insight
2 Field of Dreams
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction

4 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
2 Academy Ruins
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
1 Rule of Law
1 Warmth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Duress
1 Storm Crow
4 Brainstorm

I don't have any duals or Zen fetches, so that was the best I could do. Ideally the duals would be swapped for the respective shocks, and Marsh Flats instead of Deltas. Also missing City of Traitors, so I went with Ancient Tomb. I have Crystal Veins too, those might be better to mitigate the life loss from both Thoughtseize and the crappy shocklands. For the sideboard, I'm missing a few cards I want: Seal of Cleansing, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, and Cursed Scroll. Still, probably taking this to an LGS for a small tourney this week. Just moved so I don't know what the store or players are like yet, so I have no metagame expectation.

Any advice/last minute changes from those who are running an Esper/Tutor build? Before someone says that a Sultai/Decay build is better, I don't have any green pieces (Stirrings/Decay/lands), so switching colors is not an option right now.

I'm currently testing the Tutor build and I'm liking it. I tested against RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Miracles and Death and Taxes, without SB and had good results. D&T is the worst of the 4, because of Flickerwisp and the mana denial plan making it hard to play Bridge.

I would not play less than 4 Tutors because the deck usually loses because you didn't draw Bridge. Also, sometimes you just need the lantern, or more mill rocks to finish the lock. Remember you can also search for land/mox if you don't have enough mana to play Bridge (or need mana to play around Daze/Spell Pierce). It's the best spell in the deck, and the reason to play white. After SB it's even better to fetch specific hate cards.

Another card that has been really good for me is Pithing Needle. I'm playing 4, and I think it's the right number, it stops so many problematic cards against so many decks: Liliana, Top, Jace, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Jitte (If it has at least 2 counters Jitte allows a SFM, or any 1/2 attack through the Bridge by giving it -1/-1 and after attacking +2/+2 to deal damage and put more counters)

I use Cabal Therapy instead of Duress. We have Thoughtseizes and Lantern to see the cards in opponent's hand, and it rewards knowing the metagame and knowing which cards are important in each match. Sometimes we need to discard Thalia, Flickerwisp or Snapcaster, and Duress can't.

I also think Ancient Den is better than Seat of the Synod because the deck needs more white mana than blue.

Good luck on the tourney!

[Zerodown]

If you are playing Enlightened Tutor and you seem to have problems with D&T, Elves, Goblin or other quick heavy creature based decks. How bad would it be to play a 1of Terminus, either in the main or SB, for these matches? You can Tutor it, then play it for miracle cost on your turn wiping the field.

BTW, how do I tag cards in this forum?

[jrsthethird]

If you are playing Enlightened Tutor and you seem to have problems with D&T, Elves, Goblin or other quick heavy creature based decks. How bad would it be to play a 1of Terminus, either in the main or SB, for these matches? You can Tutor it, then play it for miracle cost on your turn wiping the field.

BTW, how do I tag cards in this forum?

I think you're thinking of the banned Mystical Tutor.

[sistinas]

I'm currently testing the Tutor build and I'm liking it. I tested against RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Miracles and Death and Taxes, without SB and had good results. D&T is the worst of the 4, because of Flickerwisp and the mana denial plan making it hard to play Bridge.


Concerning D&T, have you considered Caltrops as bridges 5-X?

[jrsthethird]

Concerning D&T, have you considered Caltrops as bridges 5-X?

I thought about this too. Never got to test it though.

[jrsthethird]

I cut the Ancient Tombs for Crystal Veins, put in Therapies instead of Duress, and a 4th Enlightened Tutor instead of an Absent. Threw 4 Eidolon of Rhetoric in the sideboard and one other thing, I forget.

Played last night for the first time at a new LGS, so the meta was completely unexpected. It's a very competitive environment, moreso than other nearby stores. There were a couple other people there who didn't have an extensive Legacy collection, so they played Burn. Typical. I went 0-3 with a 4th round bye so I left. Didn't win a game. I think my matchups were genuinely terrible, but I made some glaring errors in the first couple games which kinda set the pace for the night. But hey, it's the first time I played paper Legacy in years, so gotta get the rust off somehow I guess?

The meta was:

2x Burn (1 optimized list, 1 budget minus Guides/Chain Lightning)
2x Miracles
2x Reanimator (UB and UBg)
Enchantress
Stax
Nic Fit
Canadian Thresh
Lands
GWb Maverick (I think)
Death and Taxes
Homebrew Grixis with 8x Surgical effects

There were 16 players, but the one I'm not sure about. I feel like there was another D&T player though.

Round 1 - Death and Taxes

Game 1 - He goes Plains, Vial, then Wasteland on turn 2 and Vials in a Mom. I have 2 Codex at this point but no Lantern effect. With him on just Plains and Vial (1 counter), I Absent his Vial and mill it. I guess I was hoping to disrupt him if he didn't have more land? I think this was a mistake. He goes on to play a Port and a Revoker on Shredder. Basically he ends up getting dudes out but I have a Bridge in hand so I just need to get to 4 mana (Wingmare). I Needled the Port, Tutored for Ancient Den, Thoughtseized away a Flickerwisp (2 cards in hand - both STP), and was able to drop the Bridge with no cards in hand around 6 life. 2 turns later he topdecks another Flickerwisp before I can find a Lantern effect (I did find a Bell by then to get around Revoker).

SB - +1 Dread of Night, +1 Engineered Plague. Not sure what I took out. Probably an Absent and Thoughtseize.

Game 2 - I set up Field of Dreams + Pyxis turn 1. Great. Now I just need to play around what's in his hand. I drop another mill rock, and he plays a Revoker again, naming Pyxis (awesome, it's a one-of!). I have Bridge, so I'm just trying to control him so he doesn't draw into a Flickerwisp or other relevant card. Things are going fine, but I never find any hand control (or Plague/Dread), so he blows me out with a Council's Judgment that was in his opener.

0-1 (0-2)

Round 2 - Reanimator

Game 1 - I keep a hand with 2 Therapies + Codex. I'm pretty sure I saw this guy playing Reanimator earlier, but I'm not 100% sure. So I lead with the Codex and figure I can strip his hand after seeing the first turn. He Studies a Griselbrand and Exhume into the grave and passes. My Therapy gets hit with FOW, and I don't have another black source so I pass. He has another Exhume and brings back Grizzy. At this point I comment that this matchup is probably horrible for me and just laugh while Griselbrand does his thing.

I feel like I should have led with Therapy, and named FOW if it resolved. Even if I'm not 100% on the deck he's playing, the information is enough to help.

SB - +2 Cage, +1 Spellbomb +1 Eidolon -4 I forget

Game 2 - I keep a hand with Therapy + Cage, but no extra mana. I lead with Therapy on FOW, which hits, but I see a Thoughtseize in hand (he had a Brainstorm too for FOW). He hits me with Thoughtseize and takes the Cage away. I fumble for a bit, at one point fetching a Watery Grave while I have 2 Tutors in hand. I know he has the gas to go off and I'm too slow to stop him at this point, so once he lands Grizzy I scoop it up.

0-2 (0-4)

Round 3 - Burn

I was dreading this, because I knew both Burn players were 0-2 and I would likely be paired with one of them. The one I talked to after round 1 lived about a block away from the store, so he figured he'd pick up Legacy as something to do on a Monday night. He didn't have Guides or Chain Lightnings yet, nor did he have the lands to splash, so I was hoping I would be paired against him. I was not. The other Burn player was a Vintage/EDH player who wanted to get into Legacy, so he had all the cards.

Game 1 - Turn 1 Goblin Guide draws me a shockland. Thoughtseize hits a Lightning Bolt (should've taken Eidolon), and I Surgical it. I have a Lantern out so I used the Surgical to shuffle away the Chain Lightning on top, but after the shuffle it's the same card. :( A couple burn spells later, I drop a Bridge to thwart the attacks, but he has Eidolon out already and I don't have a way to handle that before it kills me.

SB - +1 Warmth -1 Thoughtseize

Game 2 - Therapy hits a Lightning Bolt and I Extract it. I see 4 Destructive Revelry in the deck. Great. I'm also able to set up Bell + Academy Ruins as a pseudo-card advantage engine, and it finds me a Bridge. Anyway, he gets 2 Eidolons this time and I have no answer for those. Shocklands obviously didn't help.

0-3 (0-6)

Round 4 - Someone dropped, so I'm the only one with 0 pts. Bye and I go home.

Thoughts - I still like the idea of a singleton Pyxis. Even if it's a nonbo with Academy Ruins or Surgical, it works better against decks like Reanimator, and it throws people off their Needle/Revoker/Therapy game. Absent was never there when I needed it. I know I sided some number of them out, but I don't think this is right. I'm still bad at sideboarding (I know what to put in but often don't know what to take out). Crystal Vein was great and I could see that being a relevant choice over City, even without budget concerns.

Reanimator seems like an atrocious matchup, and Burn doesn't seem much better. We can at least lock out Burn, but only if we can avoid Eidolon (not that we can't answer it with Decay/Absent, but it still hits us hard). If this meta is consistent, I don't think it's a good place for this deck at all; at least without some tuning.

[Stuart]

*Disclaimer: I don't play Lantern, nor have I ever played against it.*

Has anyone considered going for a Red build featuring Goblin Welder? Welder feels like a good fit to me, and could help get your lock assembled quickly. Red splash could also give you things like Bolt, Pyroclasm/Electrickery, Faithless Looting, and Blood Moon.

[Fox]

I can't say I'm too surprised by jrsthethird's summary, with this many moving pieces you need time and protection (i.e. you need to be much more blue, and probably black). This is a modern deck ported into legacy, and it is only equipped to fight serum visions (where you know what they can draw at all points). Probably the most important playtesting continuing down the non-blue path would be to use the modern version of lantern against other blue modern decks powered-up with 8x real cantrips [for example ponder and preordain and no copies of serum visions] and see where the deck has to go color-wise.

[Alexeezay]

@Stuart Welder turns on opponents' creature removal so I doubt it will be good.

In regards to Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain...why not just run a Package of Chains of Mephistopheles/Spirit of the Labyrinth in the Sideboard? Chains probably being the better option. Also useful vs SneakShow, turning off Griselbrand (got Needle or Revoker there as well but you can name Sneak Attack and fetchlands now).

[jrsthethird]

In regards to Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain...why not just run a Package of Chains of Mephistopheles/Spirit of the Labyrinth in the Sideboard? Chains probably being the better option. Also useful vs SneakShow, turning off Griselbrand (got Needle or Revoker there as well but you can name Sneak Attack and fetchlands now).

Ah! I did run Spirit of the Labyrinth in the sideboard, not Eidolon of Rhetoric. I get my Enchantment Creatures mixed up all the time.

Chains is good, but $$$. I don't even have the dual lands yet. X_X


Probably the most important playtesting continuing down the non-blue path would be to use the modern version of lantern against other blue modern decks powered-up with 8x real cantrips [for example ponder and preordain and no copies of serum visions] and see where the deck has to go color-wise.

There's a UB build proposed with enough blue to support FOW, as well as a BG build with Abrupt Decay. I had most of the cards for this version so it's what I went with. I don't have Decays and only have 2 FOWs right now so it was the only option at this point.

[shadowgripper]

Chains of Mephistopheles is not so good. Chains more-or-less reads "Instead of drawing a card, you loot: draw then discard (but in reverse). Given that Lantern denies them relevant draws, they just hold crap in their hand and use cantrips to loot away the crap. Chains actually doesn't impact the lock in any positive manner.

[mistervader]

Really not a fan of running FOW in a deck that wants to empty its hand ASAP.

[bruizar]

Really not a fan of running FOW in a deck that wants to empty its hand ASAP.

Why do you think the deck doesn't work with cards in hand? Just because you play Ensnaring Bridge doesn't mean you're always facing 1/1's.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Since we already know that pithing needle is MVP here, why not add 4 trinked mage?

It could be the ideal midgame play... Finds all the lock pices + needel + top.

I know its slow but there are just so many cards you want to needle! You cant ignore DRS forever...

[shadowgripper]

Since we already know that pithing needle is MVP here, why not add 4 trinked mage?

It could be the ideal midgame play... Finds all the lock pices + needel + top.

I know its slow but there are just so many cards you want to needle! You cant ignore DRS forever...

If you playtest the deck a lot you will find you do not ever want Trinket Mage. You don't need redundant search when the deck power-draws you into whatever you want.