Esper Mentor

[Jarik]

Hi guys.
I´ve been working on Esper Mentor deck at least for half a year now and played it on GP Prague with unpleasant result 5:4. I started with Patrik Chapin list and get some points to start with. I wanted more creatures and some Abrupt Decay in main, especially when Eldrazi came on. Against RED and Eldrazi were Worships + TNM after sideboard. This is my list I played there:

Creatures [13]
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
Instants [16]
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Adbrupt Decay
Sorceries [12]
1 Unearth
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths

Lands [19]
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Baleful Strix
1 Painful Truths
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Worship
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle

After the tournament I made some changes in maindeck: -1 True-Name Nemesis, 1 Baleful Strix, -1 Unearth and added 3 Tarmogoyfs.
I desperately wanted some 2mana creature and Baleful Strix wasn't good enough.

Then I saw "Curious Homunculus" in new set...

This is my current list I am testing with:
Creatures [14]
0-1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3-4 Curious Homunculus
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor

Instants [15]
1 Counterspell / 1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Adbrupt Decay

Sorceries [12]
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Night's Whisper
2 Lingering Souls

Lands [19]
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

So, what do you think about it?

[silly]

So I hate to be the person to bring this up, but what's the likelihood that this deck can emerge as a real contender in the post Miracles meta? I've always wanted to play a Mentor deck, and with Miracles now gone there is no more "obvious" build to slot Mentor in to.

It seems like Esper Mentor could be pretty good. Mentor is a pretty scary win condition sometimes, and you get to play strong stuff like Force of Will, all the blue cantrips, Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy, Swords to Plowshares, and now the newly printed Fatal Push.

[TokenMaster]

So I hate to be the person to bring this up, but what's the likelihood that this deck can emerge as a real contender in the post Miracles meta? I've always wanted to play a Mentor deck, and with Miracles now gone there is no more "obvious" build to slot Mentor in to.

It seems like Esper Mentor could be pretty good. Mentor is a pretty scary win condition sometimes, and you get to play strong stuff like Force of Will, all the blue cantrips, Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy, Swords to Plowshares, and now the newly printed Fatal Push.

Esper Mentor gets better because Abrupt Decay is no longer necessary and that takes away the need for a fourth color. Also Terminus is gone, so naturally. Mentor has seen a lot of success as a secondary wincon in other decks and I've beaten powerful boards with just Mentor and what would've otherwise been a brifk hand, so I defijitely think there's room for exploration.

[twndomn]

With the new meta, Miracles gone, this deck should rise.

Lossett streamed Unearth along with Mentor, anyone has tried or has recommendation on a list?

[silly]

So I'm going to be testing the following build. This is mostly a first draft, and I don't have much experience playing this deck but hopefully it goes well.

19 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

11 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

15 Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
2 Fatal Push
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Containment Priest
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Terminus

I have no idea what the sideboard for this deck should look like at the moment, so I just threw some cards together.

[TokenMaster]

So I'm going to be testing the following build. This is mostly a first draft, and I don't have much experience playing this deck but hopefully it goes well.

19 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

11 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

30 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

15 Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
2 Fatal Push
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Containment Priest
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Terminus

I have no idea what the sideboard for this deck should look like at the moment, so I just threw some cards together.
I don't know if 4 Cabal Therapy is optimal, I feel like some number of those should be Duress since Cabal Therapy isn't as strong when you don't have a Mentor in play or at least ready to go. Maybe cut 1-2 of them for Duress?(I don't think Inquisition quite cut it because it doesn't hit Force of Will and Thougihtseize is really shaky when you eat away at your own life with Painful Truths/Probe/fetches)

4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Probe seems too redundant, even for a Mentor deck. You want as many ways to get to Mentor/loop the Mentor as possible but I think a hand opening with a bunch of cantrips may be too slow. Maybe cut 1-2 Ponder for more action spells?

Zealous Perseuction seems strong and I'd consider running a second one, possibly even 1 Mainboard since it blows out Elves, DnT, and at times Grixis Delver, all decks that get much stronger without Miracles.

[DisgruntledElk]

Good evening everyone,

I have been testing this build for a bit now, and it was only recently brought to my attention that there was a thread here. I think I have taken a very different approach from many of you. This is the current list:

Creatures: 13
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells: 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB: 15
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stony Silence
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Containment Priest

I have been really liking the deck, and while on paper I agree Daze looks bad, it has been nothing but great in practice. That said, I have cut the truths from the main due to extreme life loss and having a 3 mana sorcery speed card that does not impact the board is simply not something I am interested in, especially in this combo-fueled meta.

Anyway, just figured I'd post it here. If anyone is curious, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Thanks!

[itrytostorm]

Not sure if anyone still cares about this deck, but I just 5-0'd a league with an Unearth version. Beat Grixis Delver, Omni-Sneak, Tezz, UR Delver, and Belcher got taken down.

[Richard Arschmann]

This deck seems like a chunky, unwieldy version of Grixis Delver with a somewhat better lategame.

[itrytostorm]

This deck seems like a chunky, unwieldy version of Grixis Delver with a somewhat better lategame.

It's not as clunky as it looks. I was happy with the result against good decks. It easily wins the longer games and the early tempo games rely on hit the plentiful removal. Post-board having 6 STP, Push effects are great. I would say try it before assuming the worst.

[CptHaddock]

It's not as clunky as it looks. I was happy with the result against good decks. It easily wins the longer games and the early tempo games rely on hit the plentiful removal. Post-board having 6 STP, Push effects are great. I would say try it before assuming the worst.

I'd be interested in your list, looks like it wasn't posted in this round of 5-0s. It's almost like more removal and hatebears is the reason to play non Grixis Delver tempo strategies. :tongue:

[itrytostorm]

I'd be interested in your list, looks like it wasn't posted in this round of 5-0s. It's almost like more removal and hatebears is the reason to play non Grixis Delver tempo strategies. :tongue:

4x Flooded
1x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

2x Baleful
3x Mentor
4x Snapcaster
3x SFM

4x Brainstorm
2x Fatal Push
4x FoW
2x STP

3x Therapy
3x Probe
2x Night's Whisper
3x Ponder
3x Unearth

1x Jitte
1x Batterskull

1x JTMS

SB:
1x Containment Priest
1x Judgment
2x Disenchant
2x Fatal Push
2x Fluster
1x Gideon AoZ
2x Surgical
1x Deluge
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Zealous persecution

[It Is Unfair]

I played a esper mentor deck in the last legacy challenge. Got 13:th place. 5-2 in matches. Here's the list from wizard's site. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-07-03#itisunfair_th_place)

[prepare4robots]

I played a esper mentor deck in the last legacy challenge. Got 13:th place. 5-2 in matches. Here's the list from wizard's site. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-07-03#itisunfair_th_place)

Thoughts on the deck? Viability? Changes you would make? Would you take it to a GP? :)

[TheArchitect]

Nice! How has Erayo been? That is not a card that I would have ever thought of.

[It Is Unfair]

Nice! How has Erayo been? That is not a card that I would have ever thought of.

Erayo was good for me in that shell, but in order to make it good I had to add more 0 Mana spells in the baubles, and most of the time the baubles are weaker than the alternatives (preordain or peek) would have been, so it makes it a lot more difficult to just compared the erayo in a vacuum.

[tescrin]

Good evening everyone,

I have been testing this build for a bit now, and it was only recently brought to my attention that there was a thread here. I think I have taken a very different approach from many of you. This is the current list:

I have been really liking the deck, and while on paper I agree Daze looks bad, it has been nothing but great in practice. That said, I have cut the truths from the main due to extreme life loss and having a 3 mana sorcery speed card that does not impact the board is simply not something I am interested in, especially in this combo-fueled meta.

I may try something like this out pretty soon. I'd swap the Jaces since I don't have them anymore and put in Collective Brutality; since I think pairing that with Cabal Therapy is the next big thing.

You may say "why..?" Well, pitching Therapy to Brutality to turn on it's Duress half not only gives you a hand view for Therapy's flashback, but a nigh-guaranteed hit (against the decks you'd use it against anyway.) The fact the card is very versatile is a nice plus and takes some of the weight off of Plows/Snaps to do everything.

[TheArchitect]

For anyone interested, I have not made it to any big events lately but this is the list I have been testing and liking so far. The MD flusterstorms have been awesome at protecting mentor in this meta with less Decays.

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
2 Engineered Explosives

// 11 Creature
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Flusterstorm

// 19 Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

// 13 Sorcery
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Night's Whisper


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Meddling Mage

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Back to Basics

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Hydroblast

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Drzed]

I have tested something similar but with some jace vryn in place of the strixes. I have found that the counterspells are worse without dig as the deck now is more tapout style so I'll swap them for discard spells. All in all the shell is promising but I need to test alot more. Night whispers are really good and I could see the deck playing up to 3 copies. I would also like to try some dazes as it's more proactive and synergizes well with jvp as the deck tend to flood sometimes and getting rid of excess lands for more action is really nice.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[gdtpara]

I played a esper mentor deck in the last legacy challenge. Got 13:th place. 5-2 in matches. Here's the list from wizard's site. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2017-07-03#itisunfair_th_place)

@It is Unfair : Quite interesting evolution from the UW list. I had some problems with it choosing either to play mentor turn 3 or keeping pierce or counterspell up, Therapy is great pickup for erayo flipping and setting up our turn 3 mentor. Gurmag is great addition (over clique i suppose), i am often too much dependent on mentor, but, why not Tasigur in this spot ?

[twndomn]

Is anyone still working on this deck? Is there no room for Jace?

[TheArchitect]

I have been playing the above list with -1 edict, -1 Hydroblast +2 Fatal Push and really liking it in the current meta. Jace could easily be played MD. It is the card I am the most on the fence about. If I did want them MD, I would play 1-2 Jace over the Night's Whisper in the MD. The benefit of not having jace is that the deck operates well on just 3 lands.

[ozimek]

I played Esper Mentor at a local four-round event a few days ago. I didn't think to look up this tread before I went.

This is the list I played:


//Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution

//Maybeboard
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vindicate


Overall the deck was really fun to play, even though I didn't do very well.

R1: Turbo-Depths
Surprizingly grindy. I had the kill on the board in turn 5 game 3, but missed a Cabal Therapy in my graveyard.
Draw

R2: Mono-red Stompy
Win G1 fairly quickly.
Get locked game 2.
G3 opener had Plans & 2 Mentors and some other stuff I never resolved due to Chalice. The Mentors went the distance though!
Win

R3: Grixis Delver
G1 I almost get a Mentor going, but can't find an answer for a pair of flipped Delvers
G2 I get too greedy with a Zealous Percecusion, as he has a Daze for it, even though he has already played one earlier, and seen only two cards since he had some nice Therapy.
Loss

R4: Mono-red Stompy with through the breach and fatties
G1 I win
G2 he has a not draw with very fast Chalice & blood moon
G3 I keep a two lander, and then he plays a Trinisphere. We do draw-go for a few turns, but I cannot find the third land, even with no Moon in play. I hold a Containment Priest in hand, but can't play it because of the Trinisphere, so eventually he finds a Through the Breach, and Emrakul finishes the game.
Loss

Seeing two Chalice decks in four rounds was pretty frustrating. I took out an EE as a last minute change, which left me with no answers to Chalice in te MD. In hindsight that was a pretty big mistake, but the EE just seemed pretty shaky with Deathrite Shaman.

[TheArchitect]

@ozimek: This deck dies pretty hard to chalice so I really like having a MD answer to it. I personally play 2 EE, no Deathrite which works great against chalice. If playing deathrite, I would consider 1-2 decay in your Push slots.


----------------------------------

After not having played magic in like 3 months, I played at a 65 person Channel Fireball event last weekend with this list and finished a kind of disappointing 10th, losing to what felt like terrible luck in my win-in.

I played this list:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sideboard:
2 Back to Basics
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Disenchant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Meddling Mage
1 Painful Truths
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge

I lost 5 of my 6 dice rolls and I lost all but 1 of my game 1s:
2-1 ANT - I misplayed ALOT but this deck is just too good against combo in game 2/3.
0-2 Maverick - I mulled and got thalia'ed/wasted into only play a few cantrips and dying both games.
2-1 UR delver - Punted hard game 1 with my fetch choices and tapping out for extra creatures I didnt even need and then died to double pop+fireblast. Game 2 and 3, I killed every creature on the spot and won with Anglers.
2-1 Grixis Delver - Very close and grindy games. At one point we each had all our lands mana producing lands in play and then also kept drawing fetches. Angler won both games again.
2-1 RUG Delver - The game I lost he had the perfect blind-flip T1 delver with daze+fow+stifle+waste. EE and strix made good look bad. Again, angler was really powerful.
0-2 Esper delver - My hands felt ok in these games, but I didn't see mentors and I made some big sequencing errors and ended up losing to a slow bleed from 2 lingering souls in each game. Strix and angler were really bad here and I kept drawing them.

Overall the deck felt really solid despite me playing it pretty bad. In retrospect, I might change around the counter suite a bit and go back up to 4 therapy, Angler was really good I might see if I can play 3 somehow.

Back to basics in the SB was pretty bad. In my head, I wanted it against delver, but it is too slow and doesn't help at all if your behind.

[twndomn]

With some amount of practices, I have to say: Probe is such a weak card. It's only great card when you also happen to have Therapy, or you have Mentor in play. However, when you're behind, it's a useless card that just replaces itself. Probe by itself, doesn't help you to get back to parity, or help you to get to a position where you want to deploy Mentor. If you're skillful enough with Therapy, Probe becomes a training wheel.

I still think board wipe spells like Supreme Verdict would serve the game plan better. DRS demands answer fast and you can't just rely on StP. Some decks are flashing back K-Command now, I rather run spell over EE, just to keep up with all the EV these Grixis decks are generating for themselves.

20 lands

3 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 TNN

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Impulse <- like a mini-dig thru time, reminds me esper mentor of old
1 Preordain <- the fifth Ponder-like cantrip effect.
1 Jace TMS
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Capi5681]

With some amount of practices, I have to say: Probe is such a weak card. It's only great card when you also happen to have Therapy, or you have Mentor in play. However, when you're behind, it's a useless card that just replaces itself. Probe by itself, doesn't help you to get back to parity, or help you to get to a position where you want to deploy Mentor. If you're skillful enough with Therapy, Probe becomes a training wheel.

I still think board wipe spells like Supreme Verdict would serve the game plan better. DRS demands answer fast and you can't just rely on StP. Some decks are flashing back K-Command now, I rather run spell over EE, just to keep up with all the EV these Grixis decks are generating for themselves.

20 lands

3 Baleful Strix
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 TNN

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Impulse <- like a mini-dig thru time, reminds me esper mentor of old
1 Preordain <- the fifth Ponder-like cantrip effect.
1 Jace TMS
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares

There's a reason that G-probe is banned in modern and restricted in vintage, it is one of the best spells in the deck. It's essentially free air that is a spell for mentor + gives you full information of the opponents hand and can be flashed back by snapcaster. Completely disagree about your "training wheels" comparison

[JackaBo]

Yeah in a deck where you basically want mentors plus a bunch of spells to trigger it, a free spell that lets you plan your hand and also draws you a card is fantastic.
In a bad spot what's the difference between drawing a StP or drawing probe then probing into StP. Just think of your deck as a 56 card deck.

[Capi5681]

Yeah in a deck where you basically want mentors plus a bunch of spells to trigger it, a free spell that lets you plan your hand and also draws you a card is fantastic.
In a bad spot what's the difference between drawing a StP or drawing probe then probing into StP. Just think of your deck as a 56 card deck.

Yes totally agree. Also I forgot to mention in a couple posts up is that it allows you to play less lands. Im on 19 lands as opposed to everyone else's typical 20 in this archetype and I am perfectly happy with it. G-probe allows for a lower land build. Less land = More gas!

[twndomn]

I am totally aware of Mentor + Probe interaction, I'm referring to situation when you re Behind; please read my previous post again, as in, you are behind on board, facing down opponent's True-Name or DnT-lock, you don't find Mentor, you don't have therapy, you have Probe by itself.

Sure, you spend the resource (life/land) to replace Probe in your hand with another card, how impactful is that? You were behind before casting Probe, you're probably still behind after casting Probe. In the good old days, if I was behind, I would love to cast DTT. That's my argument here. Instead of Probe, cast something more impactful, preferably something that would get you back in the parity, that's why I am experimenting with Impulse. If I was facing down DnT's creature and equipment, Impulse would dig harder to find my equipment removal or SB card against vial decks. That's my point.

[Capi5681]

I am totally aware of Mentor + Probe interaction, I'm referring to situation when you re Behind; please read my previous post again, as in, you are behind on board, facing down opponent's True-Name or DnT-lock, you don't find Mentor, you don't have therapy, you have Probe by itself.

Sure, you spend the resource (life/land) to replace Probe in your hand with another card, how impactful is that? You were behind before casting Probe, you're probably still behind after casting Probe. In the good old days, if I was behind, I would love to cast DTT. That's my argument here. Instead of Probe, cast something more impactful, preferably something that would get you back in the parity, that's why I am experimenting with Impulse. If I was facing down DnT's creature and equipment, Impulse would dig harder to find my equipment removal or SB card against vial decks. That's my point.

You can't think about it like that because you potentially say that about any top-deck that doesn't help you in a particular situation.

"Damn Im facing down a true-name I could really use an edict effect right now
(DRAW) "ISLAND?! DAMMIT!!"

and dig through time isn't the same type of card as git probe I think you are completing missing the entire concept and theory behind it. DTT is a card advantage source whereas git probe is merely a cantrip effect - a free cantrip that gives you perfect information I may add. Having git probe in your deck actually makes your deck better when you're using the example of finding a particular answer card or looking for gas. It digs you deeper into your deck, your deck that is now essentially only 56 cards as opposed to 60.

[TheArchitect]

Sure, you spend the resource (life/land) to replace Probe in your hand with another card, how impactful is that?

Probe does not have to be impactful, it gets you another card. That card can be impactful. Plus it has the upside of being borderline-bannably good when getting information on someones hand is important. The whole "probe is crutch" argument is bullshit too. I am pretty good at using therapy, but still probe will let you know what you can get insane value out naming a different card, or lets your turn 1, game 1 blind ponder be much stronger because you actually know what to look for now. Free GY food for Angler, having a turn 2 snap target and making monk tokens is also really good.

If you are going to play sweepers, don't play ones that cost WW. Play Deluge, it is much better and often does not kill our mentors. But you don't need sweepers if you just play more cheap cantrips (like probe) which let you be the aggressor with mentor and angler.

[theMonster]

Glad to see people are playing this deck again. I've been considering sleeving this up again myself. Just wanted to see what everyone thought of this deck versus the Dagen Grixis deck (Angler/Pyromancer/occasional Snapcasters). Mentor is a more powerful threat than Pyromancer, but the Grixis list is a little lower to the ground and gets Lightning Bolt that can go to the face. The Esper list seems to control the game a bit better, though, but it doesn't strike me as a deck that can go long in the same way as Czech Pile because they have a little more card advantage and can neutralize all of Esper's cantrips with cards like Leovold (which we can't Pyroblast) - is that accurate?

Also, anyone playing Unearth/Reanimate in their 75s? I'm assuming they've been tested and deemed not good enough, but I could see them helping to keep up against all these K-Command decks.

Thanks!

[Capi5681]

Glad to see people are playing this deck again. I've been considering sleeving this up again myself. Just wanted to see what everyone thought of this deck versus the Dagen Grixis deck (Angler/Pyromancer/occasional Snapcasters). Mentor is a more powerful threat than Pyromancer, but the Grixis list is a little lower to the ground and gets Lightning Bolt that can go to the face. The Esper list seems to control the game a bit better, though, but it doesn't strike me as a deck that can go long in the same way as Czech Pile because they have a little more card advantage and can neutralize all of Esper's cantrips with cards like Leovold (which we can't Pyroblast) - is that accurate?

Also, anyone playing Unearth/Reanimate in their 75s? I'm assuming they've been tested and deemed not good enough, but I could see them helping to keep up against all these K-Command decks.

Thanks!

I will be playing this list next sunday and am a little concerned of facing down a kolaghan's command myself...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

SB:
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Painful Truths
2 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Hydroblast

I usually play a miser's pithing needle in every legacy sb but am playing a Hydroblast over it for the kolaghan's command matchups (as well as the obvious mono red decks)

[dsck]

I feel the only problem this deck has right now is lack of good card advantage engine replacement for Dig Through Time. While JTMS is nutty it gets eaten by True-Name Nemesis and is weak to Delver decks. Painful Truths is 3CMC sorcery speed that costs life. Sylvan Library? Is OK but likely eats Decay or they have Leovold. Cabal Therapy? Strong and an excellent reason to play this deck if you are good with the card, but doesnt draw you into your spells, just weakens your opponent.

4C Control is using Kolaghan's Command/Hymn to Tourach/Night's Whisper + JTMS and all their creatures create card value (except Deathrite Shaman). If I look at the top lists I see games being about who gets Deathrite Shaman control and card advantage going, Grixis and 4C Control seem to have this going best for them and they run 5+ removal spells.

But if Esper Mentor gets to untap with Mentor in play it can beat anything, so I'd either look into amping up the speed with Petals and Ancient Tombs or figuring out a good cheap source of card advantage.

[TheArchitect]

I feel the only problem this deck has right now is lack of good card advantage engine replacement for Dig Through Time. While JTMS is nutty it gets eaten by True-Name Nemesis and is weak to Delver decks. Painful Truths is 3CMC sorcery speed that costs life. Sylvan Library? Is OK but likely eats Decay or they have Leovold. Cabal Therapy? Strong and an excellent reason to play this deck if you are good with the card, but doesnt draw you into your spells, just weakens your opponent.

4C Control is using Kolaghan's Command/Hymn to Tourach/Night's Whisper + JTMS and all their creatures create card value (except Deathrite Shaman). If I look at the top lists I see games being about who gets Deathrite Shaman control and card advantage going, Grixis and 4C Control seem to have this going best for them and they run 5+ removal spells.

But if Esper Mentor gets to untap with Mentor in play it can beat anything, so I'd either look into amping up the speed with Petals and Ancient Tombs or figuring out a good cheap source of card advantage.

These are the issues I have been having with the deck as well. Therapy, strix, snapcaster, jace, 1-2 Painful truths/nights whisper and mentor are far more card advantage than every deck in the format EXCEPT 4c Control, and maybe we are even with topless miracles. Against 4c Control, we have to be aggressor. There is no way we are beating K Command and hymn with Esper colors. Flusterstorm helps to combat their card advantage cards and lets us protect an early mentor. They have a fairly hard time answering us going wide with mentor, or dealing with angler but nothing really hoses their deck really hard. They literally can't kill black or white enchantments, but there is nothing I think of that is playable that would really hose them without hurting us. Maybe something like bitterblossom?

It is like playing the midrange vs (pre-ban) miracles matchup: you are not going out grind them no matter what cards you play, if you are going to win, you need to be the beat down.

[Miscanthus]

These are the issues I have been having with the deck as well. Therapy, strix, snapcaster, jace, 1-2 Painful truths/nights whisper and mentor are far more card advantage than every deck in the format EXCEPT 4c Control, and maybe we are even with topless miracles. Against 4c Control, we have to be aggressor. There is no way we are beating K Command and hymn with Esper colors. Flusterstorm helps to combat their card advantage cards and lets us protect an early mentor. They have a fairly hard time answering us going wide with mentor, or dealing with angler but nothing really hoses their deck really hard. They literally can't kill black or white enchantments, but there is nothing I think of that is playable that would really hose them without hurting us. Maybe something like bitterblossom?

It is like playing the midrange vs (pre-ban) miracles matchup: you are not going out grind them no matter what cards you play, if you are going to win, you need to be the beat down.

Perhaps 1-2 copies of Tasigur might be a good option here (and in general).
It is both card advantage and a reasonable win condition.
Side it out/shuffle it away vs. decks with Karakas.

[TheArchitect]

Tasigur is probably worth revisiting. I could see playing 2 tasigur and 0-1 angler. Tasigur getting chumped by opposing anglers is a big deal though. But luckily swords makes us well equipped to deal with angler. However, Playing tasigur over angler is the opposite of what I recommended above: beating 4c pile with aggression not card advantage.

[maharis]

4 deathrite
3 snapcaster
3 mentor
1 angler

4 Probe
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 swords
3 lingering souls
3 Chart a course
3 cabal therapy
1 fatal push

4 strand
4 delta
3 tundra
2 sea
1 scrub
1 trop

2 island
1 swamp
1 plains

2 baleful strix
2 Flusterstorm
2 zealous persecution
2 kambal, consul of allocation
2 surgical extraction
1 tormods crypt
1 pithing needle
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 fatal push

Been playing this list for a while to medium results, couple of 3-2 leagues. I do think it's better than that though, I just need more practice in certain matchups. Basically Souls is the best way to keep up with czech's engines in our colors, it is good against discard, good against spot removal, good against PWs and even if DRS is a pain, you should be killing that on sight anyway. Chart a course is stupid good with 6 value discards, plenty of extra lands, and snapcaster in a pinch. I am considering trying to fit in Spell Snare because it deals with a lot of problems (sfm, snap, chalice, hymn). But I wouldn't play many more counters, I don't think planning to counter removal on mentor is what we want to do. It's better to just exhaust their resources with DRS/snap/Souls and then drop a late mentor and use our superior card velocity to close things out. I took a D&T player down from 32 to -7 in two turns despite having to chump/swords equipped batterskulls. Anyway I'm pretty high on this idea and just trying to fine-tune.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DNSolver]

After playing this list that I've never played before to a 4-0 finish in the first four matches of a league last night, I decided not to play the last round and play the challenge today instead. Got 16th place, as you will see on Goldfish tomorrow, and just lost the 5th match of the league. Total 8-3 so far, but one of the wins is from opponent's punts, so I will call it 7-4.

Creatures:
4 Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Angler
1 Griselbrand

Spells:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will

Lands:
3 Tundra
3 USea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Strand
4 Delta
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
1 Tidespout - to have a chance against Lands
1 Iona - to have a chance against Elves, also can help vs Burn and Storm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Council's Judgment - answers all the scary permanents - True Name, Jace, Leovold, ...
1 Disenchant - Chalice / Blood Moon, equipment
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Fatal Push - additional removal vs Delver
2 Ethersworn Canonist - helps vs Sneak and Show, Storm
1 Lingering Souls - great against Czech and perhaps Miracles

League Matches:

Infect 2-1 Lost G1. Griselbrand won G2, infinite removal won G3.

Opt Miracles 2-0 - Griselbrand won G1, opponent mulled to 5 G2 and then got Therapied.

Pox 2-1

Maverick, splashing blue (for Leovold?) 2-1 - Griselbrand got G1, I got run over G2, then Mentor got G3.

Esper Stoneblade 1-2 - Got G1 with Mentors. G2 mulled to 5, kept a no-lander with Probe on the draw, missed on land and died. G3 drew too many lands.


Challenge Matches:

2-0 Czech - Griselbrand got G1, Mentor got G2.

0-2 Elves - Playing vs Julian so I knew he was on Elves. Both games kept half the reanimate combo and some cantrips, but couldn't find the other half.

2-1 Burn - My opponent straight up punted and conceded to Griselbrand G1 despite me going to 6 life off Reanimate, where he could have killed me with Bolts.

1-2 Eldrazi - Mentor and Reanimate on Mentor got G1 through a Jitte, but no Chalice. G2 I mulligan'd to 5, killed the Chalice with Disenchant, and died to drawing only lands with Mentor out. G3 I mulligan to 5 again looking for a way to beat a Chalice (therapy, force, disenchant, council's) and keep a Council's Judgment hand. I get Wastelanded, then he finds a 2nd Chalice and I'm dead because I can only kill one.

2-0 Storm - Opponent died to their own Ad Nauseam G1. G2 I kept Force, Force, Fluster, 4 land, while opponent keeps 2 probe, 5 combo cards, no land. He misses on lands for the entire game and dies to a turn 4 Angler.

2-0 Czech - Really grindy game 1 where he kept trying to put Leovold in play while I kept chaining Reanimating Snapcasters and such. Game 2 I saw Dread of Night and opted to not go for Mentor or Souls until I could reasonably beat it. Turns out he had shuffled it away off Brainstorm ... so he died.

tl;dr Mentor list with 4 Entomb 4 Reanimate 1 Griselbrand wins a bunch of games with Griselbrand. Usually Griselbrand dies, but the draw 7 supplies you with enough cards to win. Miracles matchup is far better with Griselbrand. Czech matchup is much better overall, Griselbrand is part of that, also Entomb Lingering Souls isn't the worst.

Edit: List is now posted. Also, realized I didn't include the 1-of Lingering Souls in the sideboard.

[Ruckusmh]

Hey DnSolver, nice deck. Any thought to playing a non zero number of unearths and maybe thought scour or something like that? Feel like you could potentially up the graveyard reliance a little bit and perhaps increase the value of your entombs dramatically.

[mistercakes]

Played against this deck a lot on modo about a year ago. Was this you back then as well?

[DNSolver]

I first played this deck on Saturday in a league, after testing a couple Esper Mentor shells for a few days prior, so I was not "the guy" a year ago.

The only things that Thought Scour could hit are Reanimate targets and Snapcaster targets, and I never have a problem hitting Snapcaster targets (usually Brainstorm if not the nuts turn 2 Snap -> Probe -> Therapy). Currently, all the cantrips are better than Thought Scour.

I have thought about switching the Entomb -> Reanimate -> Griselbrand package into an Entomb -> Unearth -> Leovold / TNN / sideboard bullets card. Obviously, there aren't a ton of good 3 CMC creatures that are worth 2-for-1'ing ourselves to make, whereas Griselbrand is easily worth 2-for-1'ing. However, I have recently swapped Griselbrand for Aetherling maindeck and kept the two sideboard bullets as Iona and Tidespout. Haven't made Aetherling yet.

I do like that Unearth cycles, but I also like that Reanimate can target opponent's stuff, such as opponent's TNN / Leovold / Snapcaster / Griselbrand (hasn't happened yet...). If someone can find some card that I want to Entomb and Unearth that's better than Leovold or TNN let me know, because I don't think even those are worth it.

[ozimek]

How about using Search for Azcanta instead of Entomb. (No bullets, just value) Swap reanimate for Unearth.
+Filters draws (Dump situational cards)
+Fills GY
+Value with Cabal Therapy & Lingering Souls (up the count)
+Fits the curve with Mentor t3

[TheArchitect]

How about using Search for Azcanta instead of Entomb. (No bullets, just value) Swap reanimate for Unearth.
+Filters draws (Dump situational cards)
+Fills GY
+Value with Cabal Therapy & Lingering Souls (up the count)
+Fits the curve with Mentor t3

I am going to try this. I tried search in Miracles already where it was a very powerful card, although too slow for some matchups. I will post in a bit about how it goes.

[DNSolver]

Going to be streaming a bit with the deck, talking about some card choices and how I developed it.

Starting in 5 minutes at 10:30 AM EST

twitch.tv/dnsolver

[Hanni]

I haven't played magic in almost 5 months, but I went to my LGS last night and went 3-1 with this pile...

U/W/b(g) Inna's Mantra

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor

Spells (30)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
3 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Matchups were:

2-1 D&T
2-1 Infect
0-2 UB Reanimator
2-0 4c Aluren (white version)

Against UB Reanimator, I feel heavily favored for that matchup, but I just had some bad beats. G1 I kept a hand full of white cards and he had a t2 Griselbrand. G2 we both mulled to 6, he had a turn 2 SnT into Grislebrand with Force backup.

If anyone wants details on the other matchups, just ask.

EDIT: Actually, I ran 2 Back to Basics 0 Flusterstorm for the event. However, I've since cut 1 Back to Basics for 1 Flusterstorm and 1 Ethersworn Canonist for 1 Meddling Mage. I'm going to edit my list above to show my updates to it.

EDIT2: I've also cut the Vindicate for a 2nd EE.

EDIT3: Updated my list to show my current sideboard, which is what I ran at Eternal Weekend during the Legacy Championship (main event). Basically, I cut 1 Containment Priest and 1 Zealous Persecution for 1 Council’s Judgment and 1 Toxic Deluge to better address the decks weaknesses to both Leovold and Chalice for 1.

[gdtpara]

I went to a 45 people tournament this week end and got 13th place with TheArchitect list with minor change in back to basic into zealous persecution

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
2 Engineered Explosives

// 13 Creature
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Flusterstorm

// 19 Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

// 11 Sorcery
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Meddling Mage

// 7 Instant
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Painful Truths


R1 : 1-1-1 vs 4c control.
Probably a few mistakes on discard that let jace resolves and got owned by it

R2 : 2-0 vs czech pile. Went full aggro even with meddling mage post board

R3 : 1-1 vs RUG delver. Won game 1 easy thanks to gurmag and strix. Game 2 goes to time and i hit blank and he could find truename and mangoose for last turn lethal while i'm at 2 life and toxic deluge in hand
R4 : 0-2 vs 4c delver. Got owned by deathrite into waste stifle daze pierce delver bolt hand. Almost the same game 2
R5 : 2-0 vs eldrazi. Gurmag and mentor crushes him in a non chalice games.
R6 : 2-1 vs eldrazi. lost 1 to thorn of amethyst. Got 2 with huge strix gurmag mentor board. Game 3 got really lucky hitting 3 swords in 3 turn with 4-5 draw and dodging any topdeck while i'm at 1 attacking him

[ozimek]

So, should the deck play Deathrite or Strix? Both are good fits, but it's hard to find room for both, at least in meaningful numbers.

With Lingering Souls the need for Strix is obviously reduced.

Thoughts?

[Hanni]

There isn't really a defined way to build the deck right now. There are advantages and disadvantages to all of the different lists that have been posted. Until someone top 8's a major event that causes players to netdeck that list, and bring more attention to this archetype to streamline the community accepted list, you're not going to see a unanimous consensus.

I personally feel that Deathrite Shaman offers a lot to this deck, considering this deck likes having extra mana. As far as Baleful Strix is concerned, there are a lot of competing creatures for those slots, and there just isn't a definitive answer. I prefer Stoneforge Mystic myself, but I think I'm in the minority on that.

[TheArchitect]

I have come around on playing deathrite. If you can't beat them, join them. I previously did not like have deathrite when the deck played a more control role, but against the 50% of the meta that is running deathrite one of the best things you can do is play deathrite yourself. I also do really like lingering souls right now, but don't think it belongs in the maindeck. It is too slow against a lot of matchups and we already have plenty of 3 drops in mentor and snapcaster. I think the SB is a good place for it, to bring in against Control, delver and dark depths decks.

Strix I still want 3-4 of, it ups the blue count, goes well with therapy, is "removal" or at least a speedbump to delver and a solid value beater against control.

I would not play stoneforge in a meta where Kolaghan's Command is in a quarter of the decks.

I tried Search for Alcatraz and it was great in a miracles shell, but way to slow for this deck.

I have had mixed results against 4c pile lately and am about 50/50 which to me is acceptable since on paper the matchup looks like it would be much worse. Flusterstorm, angler and lingering souls pulled the most weight, and basically any game that went on for too long I lost. We have to be the beatdown in this matchup.


This is the list that I will be playing in the foreseeable future if anyone is interested:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Cabal Therapy

2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:

1 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Lingering Souls
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution

[Hanni]

I would not play stoneforge in a meta where Kolaghan's Command is in a quarter of the decks.

I'm highly skeptical that 4c Czech Pile and Grixis Pyromancer make up 25% of the metagame.

Regardless, K Command doesn't make SFM bad. K Command is still a 2-for-1 regardless of which modes it uses. In actuality, the Baleful Strix body is just as bad against them as the Stoneforge Mystic body is, and both replace themselves. The difference is that there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. Most lists run 2 K Command... if they don't have it, or if we can counter it, the equipment can easily take over the game. If they do have it, it's still a 2-for-1 like it would have been otherwise.

Arguably, I'm more concerned with how Gurmag Angler lines up against the massive amount of Baleful Strix being played right now. Strix extends into Food Chain, Aluren, Shardless, Esper Stoneblade and Deathblade, in addition to Grixis Pyromancer and Czech Pile. I'd rather fight with Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm over K Command than be forced into using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix.

At any rate, I'm not sure that Czech Pile is as bad as everyone is claiming. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is what wins that matchup... everything else is just a distraction to force them into trading resources. I'm fine baiting out removal with DRS and SFM to ensure that my Mentor sticks.

Against the rest of the format, I think there are pros and cons of SFM vs Baleful Strix, but I personally prefer SFM. However, I realize I am in the minority with that opinion, and I'm okay with that.

[TheArchitect]

At any rate, I'm not sure that Czech Pile is as bad as everyone is claiming. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is what wins that matchup... everything else is just a distraction to force them into trading resources. I'm fine baiting out removal with DRS and SFM to ensure that my Mentor sticks.

I agree, they have a lot of reactive mid-late games that don't like up against mentor, and get taken by therapy anyways.

I am definitely bias as well, in that I have just gotten blown out too many times by discard and/or K command that I have sworn off of SFM. I don't think SFM is bad or out of place in this archtype.

[Hanni]

I agree, they have a lot of reactive mid-late games that don't like up against mentor, and get taken by therapy anyways.

I am definitely bias as well, in that I have just gotten blown out too many times by discard and/or K command that I have sworn off of SFM. I don't think SFM is bad or out of place in this archtype.

In all fairness, I do board out some or even all of my SFM package in quite a few matchups. Although, in some cases like against Elves, it is because I bring in sweepers to no longer rely on Jitte, and they board out alot of business to bring in discard and Abrupt Decay.

In most of the matchups where I do cut them, though, are matchups where I would also cut Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler if I ran them instead... primarily combo matchups.

[TheArchitect]

I just tuned in to Eternal weekend to see Hanni at 7-0-1 crush RUG delver. Goodjob and goodluck!

[ScottW]

I just tuned in to Eternal weekend to see Hanni at 7-0-1 crush RUG delver. Goodjob and goodluck!

Hanni is in top 8. Super glad he won his round 11! Congrats!

[twndomn]

In all fairness, I do board out some or even all of my SFM package in quite a few matchups. Although, in some cases like against Elves, it is because I bring in sweepers to no longer rely on Jitte, and they board out alot of business to bring in discard and Abrupt Decay.

In most of the matchups where I do cut them, though, are matchups where I would also cut Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler if I ran them instead... primarily combo matchups.

Strangely enough, after watching the Top 8, overlooking the nerve issue, I still like TheArchitect's version better. Strix could have solve a lot of issues, not convince on SFM package whatsoever. But hey, they did get you into the Top 8 of 700+ players tournament.

[Hanni]

I punted so unbelievably hard against BUG Delver in game 2 of the semifinals.

Anyway...

SFM was good for me throughout the Swiss. I think the Strix/Snapcaster version is good too, so I can't really say which version I think is better, but I like SFM in here. I will say that I would much rather play Tasigur over Gurmag Angler. This deck can grind out Czech Pile, as evidenced from my game 3 against it on camera in the quarterfinals, and Gurmag Angler does not line up well against Baleful Strix.

[Hanni]

I probably won't write a report of the event, as I didn't take any notes and I played way too many rounds of REL magic this weekend (23 rounds in total). However, I did keep track of what I played against, and what my record was...

Swiss

R1 Eldrazi Stompy / Big Eldrazi Hybrid: 2-0
R2 Grixis Delver: 1-1-1
R3 Grixis Delver: 2-0
R4 4c Czech Pile: 2-1
R5 MUD: 2-0
R6 Grixis Delver: 2-0
R7 BW Deadguy Ale: 2-1
R8 RUG Delver: 2-1
R9 RG Lands: 2-0
R10 BUG Delver: 0-2
R11 GW Maverick: 1-0-1

Top 8

Quarterfinals 4c Czech Pile: 2-1
Semifinals BUG Delver: 0-2

There were many insane plays and many insane board states this weekend. I also hit extremely well with blind Cabal Therapy's this weekend, which felt really good every time.

Monastery Mentor is absurdly powerful, and I don't understand why there aren't many people playing it. The deck basically carried me to the Top 8. Gitaxian Probe made it very easy to figure out my best lines, Therapy dealt with big problems before they became problems, and Mentor brought me back from otherwise unwinnable game states.

Oh yea, I also got to live the deam against Elves in a Legacy challenge on Friday. Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Mentor with double Probe, force him to lose his entire board blocking on turn 3 after I emptied his hand with Cabal Therapy's, and then killed him on turn 4.

Also, I had the most insane stack ever against Grixis Delver in round 3. I'm at 6 and my opponent has a flipped Delver and DRS in play. My opponent Bolts his own Deathrite after blocking my Batterskull equipped with an unactive Jitte to prevent me from getting counters or lifegain. In response, I cast Swords to Plowshares on his Delver. In response, he casts Spell Pierce on my Swords to Plowshares (I had two mana left open and he had a Daze in hand). In response, I Spell Pierce his Spell Pierce. In response, he hits my Spell Pierce with Pyroblast. In response, I cast Flusterstorm, assigning 3 copies to his Spell Pierce and 3 copies to his Lightning Bolt. Wowzers.

Against Eldrazi Stompy, in Game 1, he has a turn 2 TKS, takes 1 of my two StP. I send it farming. I tap out casting cantrips, and he resolves another TKS taking my 3rd StP. He follows up with two Matter Reshapers over the next couple of turns. My life total is gettng low, but a Mentor helps me stabilize somewhat. He plays a Reality Smasher that I have my 4th StP for, but I'm dangerously low in life at this point. A SFM into Batterskull comes down to help me actually stabilize. A Jace comes down and starts refilling my depleted hand while Battetskull and monk tokens hold it down. I put either 1 or 2 Deathrites into play at some point. A second Mentor comes down, and I put 4 monks into play (2 spells cast). He EOT tutors with Eye of Ugin for Ulamog, untaps and casts Ulamog, exiles both Mentors. I untap, bounce Ulamog with Jace, chain cast a few spells, and swing in for exactly lethal. It felt like I was playing with RG Lands, that's how many permanents I had on the battlefield.

[TheArchitect]

Congrats on the finish, and thanks for a rundown on the matchups. Don't sweat the top 8 jitters, we have all been there it just isn't always on camera, and you still managed to have perfect blind therapy names.



I am going to a CFB 4k next weekend with Esper Mentor, so it is reassuring seeing you do so well with the archtype.

[First_Revenge]

Monastery Mentor is absurdly powerful, and I don't understand why there aren't many people playing it. The deck basically carried me to the Top 8. Gitaxian Probe made it very easy to figure out my best lines, Therapy dealt with big problems before they became problems, and Mentor brought me back from otherwise unwinnable game states.



Hey hanni, first of all congratulations on your finish! I'm more in the deathblade thread, so it was exciting to see your list featured in the top 8. Although its very different from the deathblade lists our thread has been testing.

I actually had a question about Mentor. Just looking your list its clearly warped around Mentor. You've cut TNNs, thoughtseizes, and snapcasters from a typical deathblade list to make room for 4 mentors, 4 probes, and 4 cabal therapy. In general my question is do you feel Mentor is a "build around me" card? I have previously thought to try him in a more traditional deathblade list, but at the time i wasn't convinced the deck would support him without cards like probe. Given your success though it may be time to revisit the question.

Thanks!

[Hanni]

Hey hanni, first of all congratulations on your finish! I'm more in the deathblade thread, so it was exciting to see your list featured in the top 8. Although its very different from the deathblade lists our thread has been testing.

I actually had a question about Mentor. Just looking your list its clearly warped around Mentor. You've cut TNNs, thoughtseizes, and snapcasters from a typical deathblade list to make room for 4 mentors, 4 probes, and 4 cabal therapy. In general my question is do you feel Mentor is a "build around me" card? I have previously thought to try him in a more traditional deathblade list, but at the time i wasn't convinced the deck would support him without cards like probe. Given your success though it may be time to revisit the question.

Thanks!

Mentor is absolutely a build-around-me kind of card. Mentor doesn't work well if you don't, but he feels like a Lingering Souls on steroids when you do. I would not play Mentor without 4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Probe and at least 3 Cabal Therapy. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is the real core of my deck... the Deathblade portion fills in the rest because it gives the deck a fantastic curve, additional must-answer threats, tons of flexibility and additional control options, and SFM is a great source of card advantage in most fair matchups.

I know the commentators were calling the deck Deathblade, but the deck is built around Mentor, not the other way around. Mentor Deathblade is probably the most correct naming convention for it, but I could just as easily have cut the SFM package for Strix/Snapcaster/Tasigur, and I think I still would have done well. Probe/Therapy + Mentor is just that good. I will say, though, that I have no intention of cutting SFM.

[Shaka1333]

I am interested to test out this deck on MTGO.

TheArchitest : you seem to be very experienced with the deck. You said that you would not have 0 answer MD to Chalice and in your last version you actually don't have any and "only" two answer in the sideboard. You mentioned that it might be correct to play Abrupt Decay with Deathrite Shaman but with "only" 14 lands producing black or green, it looks pretty ambitious to me. You cut Back to Basics entirely, why ? How is your Eldrazi and Lands matchups ?

Hanni : Congratulations for your great result this weekend. It was interesting to watch you play this deck. Would you change something going forward ?

I fell like playing 1 or 2 more discard spells would be really good in the deck. T1 discard T2 SFM has always been a strong play (I have some experience with it as well since back in 2013 http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443&f=LE ... 2013 ! time really flies ...) but there is this blue count problem... Would it be crazy to play 6 discard spells to improve our SFM and Mentor, maybe 2 Flusterstorm MD but to move our Force of Will in the sideboard ?

[Hanni]

I wouldn't make any changes to my maindeck. The maindeck feels perfect.

The sideboard is a sideboard, which means that it changes as the metagame changes. Right now, I'm happy with it, and I feel that it gives me sufficient answers for the entire metagame, but there are definitely some slots that could be tweaked. I'm not 100% sure if the deck needs the 3rd Meddling Mage against combo, for example. If you're only playing in a local meta, the sideboard could be even more drastically changed to suit your specific needs.

For the most part though, I am satisfied with my 75, and I wouldn't make changes to it if I were to run it again at another large event.

EDIT: Also, I don't feel like the deck needs more discard. The 4 Therapy feels like more than enough, especially considering that a single Therapy can often hit 2+ cards in an opponent's hand between the original cast and the Flashback.

I had a single Therapy strip 4 cards out of my opponent's hand against BW Stoneblade. Turn 1 Probe + Therapy took 3 Thoughtseize, and then I later flashed it back and hit something else, a Liliana I think.

[TheArchitect]

I am interested to test out this deck on MTGO.

TheArchitest : you seem to be very experienced with the deck. You said that you would not have 0 answer MD to Chalice and in your last version you actually don't have any and "only" two answer in the sideboard. You mentioned that it might be correct to play Abrupt Decay with Deathrite Shaman but with "only" 14 lands producing black or green, it looks pretty ambitious to me. You cut Back to Basics entirely, why ? How is your Eldrazi and Lands matchups ?

Hanni : Congratulations for your great result this weekend. It was interesting to watch you play this deck. Would you change something going forward ?

I fell like playing 1 or 2 more discard spells would be really good in the deck. T1 discard T2 SFM has always been a strong play (I have some experience with it as well since back in 2013 http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443&f=LE ... 2013 ! time really flies ...) but there is this blue count problem... Would it be crazy to play 6 discard spells to improve our SFM and Mentor, maybe 2 Flusterstorm MD but to move our Force of Will in the sideboard ?


I have only recently gone to the dark side and started using Deathrite. After more amounts of testing, I don't think decay is worth playing as it makes the mana too greedy. And chalice is annoying but we don't autolose to it game 1 and post-board I have 1 EE, 1 disechant, 1 CJ, but I might actually swap an edict for another EE.


I found I was only bringing in back to basics for lands and eldrazi and thats not enough of the meta to justify 2 slots. Lands is probably 50-50 and Eldrazi I feel favored even without back to basics.


I have played the deck with 2 IOK, 4 therapy before and it was decent and something I have strongly considered trying again. The slots are tight though, and FoW is too good in this deck. Mentor is basically show tell in some matchups, a 3 mana spell that if you can resolve you win, so FoW is actually really strong. I'd happily cut FoW in grindy value decks, like Esper stoneblade or 4c control, since it is just the decks safety net against random stuff it can't deal with.

[Hanni]

I have only recently gone to the dark side and started using Deathrite. After more amounts of testing, I don't think decay is worth playing as it makes the mana too greedy. And chalice is annoying but we don't autolose to it game 1 and post-board I have 1 EE, 1 disechant, 1 CJ, but I might actually swap an edict for another EE.


I found I was only bringing in back to basics for lands and eldrazi and thats not enough of the meta to justify 2 slots. Lands is probably 50-50 and Eldrazi I feel favored even without back to basics.


I have played the deck with 2 IOK, 4 therapy before and it was decent and something I have strongly considered trying again. The slots are tight though, and FoW is too good in this deck. Mentor is basically show tell in some matchups, a 3 mana spell that if you can resolve you win, so FoW is actually really strong. I'd happily cut FoW in grindy value decks, like Esper stoneblade or 4c control, since it is just the decks safety net against random stuff it can't deal with.

Back to Basics is definitely a less used card than something like EE, where I was bringing EE in against most matchups.

However, I like that B2B gives an angle of attack that this deck doesn't have. I brought it in against Eldrazi, MUD, RG Lands, Czech Pile, and BUG Delver (he transforms into a control deck postboard) during EW. It's definitely a flexible spot that could be cut, but it's so powerful in some matchups that I liked having it. I'm only on 1 B2B though, not 2.

Also, I only cut 2 FoW in my grindy matchups like Czech pile, because there are still bombs that need to be countered. Jace, Library, Kologhan's Command, Leovold, etc. The 1-for-2 is bad, but when the card you are countering would give them a 2-for-1 or better, it's break even or better, so it's fine.

There could be some matchups where extra discard could be better, but there are some matchups where I trim or even completely cut Therapy, so I'm not sure I'd want to be on 6. For example, I trim 1-2 vs Delver decks, which were my most common matchup at EW.

As far as Flusterstorm maindeck goes, I liked Spell Pierce much better. As a maindeck inclusion, having the wider more versatile option is better in an unknown field. Countering planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments makes it much more usable, and much less of a dead card. Don't get my wrong though... in the matchups where I brought in Flusterstorm out of the board, it was insane everytime I played it. But still... I think a narrower card like Flusterstorm is better as a sideboard card. Spell Pierce countered quite a few non-instant/sorcery cards over the weekend.

[Hanni]

Sam Roukas on camera at the SCG Washington Open, sitting at 5-0, playing D&T in game 6, currently at 1-1, playing my list with a couple of changes to the sideboard.

EDIT: A couple of misplays cost him the game at the end of the 3rd game, but the games were enjoyable to watch. I didn't like the aggressive EE for 1 to take out Vial, though.

I'm not sure why he boarded in the SoFI... SoFI is not meant for this matchup. SoFI is great to bring in against
D&T with other Stoneblade decks with TNN or fliers, but this deck can't punch through with a SoFI. Jitte is just much better, and Batterskull is also pretty solid otherwise.

I also saw that he left in FoW, which I also don't agree with. My board plan vs D&T is:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Disenchant
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle

An argument could be made to cut a Therapy instead of a Jace TMS, but sometimes Jace can be akward against Flickerwisps, Serra Avengers, a Mother of Runes protected creature, or a big enough board that can push through. Jace TMS is certainly fantastic in some spots, but I've found early Probe + Therapies to be especially brutal against D&T.

The deck doesn't need FoW or Spell Pierce postboard. Few lists are playing Cataclysm these days, and nothing else requires a counterspell in this matchup. The deck plays more than enough threats to power through opposing Council's Judgment, and enough ways to beat a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.

[Hanni]

Anyone know if Sam Roukas made day two?

[Minniehajj]

Anyone know if Sam Roukas made day two?

I believe he made day two. I last tracked him at x-2, going into the last round.

EDIT: Confirmed that he made it in at x-2

[twndomn]

Sam Roukas on camera at the SCG Washington Open, sitting at 5-0, playing D&T in game 6, currently at 1-1, playing my list with a couple of changes to the sideboard.

EDIT: A couple of misplays cost him the game at the end of the 3rd game, but the games were enjoyable to watch. I didn't like the aggressive EE for 1 to take out Vial, though.

I'm not sure why he boarded in the SoFI... SoFI is not meant for this matchup. SoFI is great to bring in against
D&T with other Stoneblade decks with TNN or fliers, but this deck can't punch through with a SoFI. Jitte is just much better, and Batterskull is also pretty solid otherwise.

I also saw that he left in FoW, which I also don't agree with. My board plan vs D&T is:

-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Force of Will
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Disenchant
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Zealous Persecution
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle

An argument could be made to cut a Therapy instead of a Jace TMS, but sometimes Jace can be akward against Flickerwisps, Serra Avengers, a Mother of Runes protected creature, or a big enough board that can push through. Jace TMS is certainly fantastic in some spots, but I've found early Probe + Therapies to be especially brutal against D&T.

The deck doesn't need FoW or Spell Pierce postboard. Few lists are playing Cataclysm these days, and nothing else requires a counterspell in this matchup. The deck plays more than enough threats to power through opposing Council's Judgment, and enough ways to beat a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.

I would keep FoW. If you happen to have FoW and a Blue card in hand against early turn Vial, you would pitch cast FoW, right? I don't see why one would take that option away. While Therapy is great with Mentor, I just don't see how Therapy by itself is great again Vial decks. Vial decks are so redundant with their threats.

Basically, if you don't run board wipes, your board presence will never be as threatening as Vail deck opponent's; you're forced to race to get connected with Jitte/SoFI. Compare to Terminus/K. Return, Deluge and Persecution are just... meh~. Persecution can't kill DRS, Deluge at sorcery speed is rough through Port.

Not sure if the decisions of Roukas are misplays, he's a pretty skillful former Miracles player.

[Hanni]

I would keep FoW. If you happen to have FoW and a Blue card in hand against early turn Vial, you would pitch cast FoW, right? I don't see why one would take that option away. While Therapy is great with Mentor, I just don't see how Therapy by itself is great again Vial decks. Vial decks are so redundant with their threats.

Basically, if you don't run board wipes, your board presence will never be as threatening as Vail deck opponent's; you're forced to race to get connected with Jitte/SoFI. Compare to Terminus/K. Return, Deluge and Persecution are just... meh~. Persecution can't kill DRS, Deluge at sorcery speed is rough through Port.

Not sure if the decisions of Roukas are misplays, he's a pretty skillful former Miracles player.

I'm not saying Roukas isn't a skillfull player... I'm sure he's a better magic player than I am.

I wouldn't keep FoW. In game 1, I would Force a turn 1 Vial, yes. In postboard games, that's not what I want to be doing.

Therapy is fantastic. Vial is too slow to protect against Therapy during the first few turns. The way you win postboard is by attacking their resources, and Therapy is fantastic for that. Therapy is also good at stripping equipment out of an opponent's hand after they cast a SFM.

The postboard plan does involve board wipes, but I don't agree at all that the deck cannot build a more threating board presence without them.

[amitofo]

Are there any differences between roukas' and hanni's 75?

Also, hanni, have you posted / can you post any other sideboarding plans you have? the d&t sideboard plan you posted below is interesting.

[Hanni]

I haven't seen the list for his maindeck, so I cannot confirm if it is the same 100%, but based on the two matches I watched on camera, it looks the same.

His sideboard is a few cards different. He's playing 2 Rest in Peace instead of 2 Surgical Extraction, and he cut the Pithing Needle for a Hydroblast.

EDIT: I have not posted any of my other sideboard plans yet.

[NegatorITA]

can I get an insight of why EE are so good in the board?
just a general lesson :)

[Hanni]

Looks like Sam lost his win-and-in against Grixis Delver. That's unfortunate, but I'm still happy to see him do as well as he did with my list.


can I get an insight of why EE are so good in the board?
just a general lesson :)

Because there simply isn't any room to run them in the maindeck. The deck needs 20 blue spells for Force of Will, and everything else in the maindeck is just better IMO.

If you're asking why EE itself is good... it's because EE has the ability to deal with nearly every problematic permanent you might be worried about, and can often 2-for-1 or better. The 2 EE's combine with Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge to give the deck 4 sweepers vs Elves, D&T, etc. I won my game 3 in the quarterfinals against Czech Pile because an EE@2 blew up a Sylvan Library and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy before my opponent could get any value out of either one.

[NegatorITA]

Looks like Sam lost his win-and-in against Grixis Delver. That's unfortunate, but I'm still happy to see him do as well as he did with my list.



Because there simply isn't any room to run them in the maindeck. The deck needs 20 blue spells for Force of Will, and everything else in the maindeck is just better IMO.

If you're asking why EE itself is good... it's because EE has the ability to deal with nearly every problematic permanent you might be worried about, and can often 2-for-1 or better. The 2 EE's combine with Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge to give the deck 4 sweepers vs Elves, D&T, etc. I won my game 3 in the quarterfinals against Czech Pile because an EE@2 blew up a Sylvan Library and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy before my opponent could get any value out of either one.

it was the second explanation I wanted:
Like, why you have chosen EE over extra deluge or extra zealos :)

here is the list of Sam (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25363&iddeck=199054)

I've a tournament sunday and I'll like to bring that deck, but I've never played it ahha so while the maindeck is self-explanatory at least, for the sideboard choices are a lot harder to understand by just guessing why such card was chosen over another.

[Hanni]

it was the second explanation I wanted:
Like, why you have chosen EE over extra deluge or extra zealos :)

here is the list of Sam (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25363&iddeck=199054)

I've a tournament sunday and I'll like to bring that deck, but I've never played it ahha so while the maindeck is self-explanatory at least, for the sideboard choices are a lot harder to understand by just guessing why such card was chosen over another.

I've been working on tuning Esper sideboards for a long time now, so I feel pretty comfortable putting them together. The sideboard might look like a pile of random cards, but it's actually meticulous and well thought-out.

For example, I opted for a 1/1 split of Persecution and Deluge because there are matchups where Persecution is just so good, but there are matchups where it's not but Deluge is. ZP is much better against Infect, and the instant speed makes it much better against Rishadan Port against D&T. It's also better against ANT/TES/Belcher. The fact that ZP is never dead since it can pump Mentor + tokens is awesome, and being able to blank Bolt on Mentor or win a Battersull vs Gurmag fight is just icing. On the other hand, Toxic Deluge gives me a clean answer to Leovold, and is generally much better against Czech Pile. I don't even board ZP in against Pile, unless I've seen TNN. Deluge also deals with Prelate where ZP does not. So on and so forth.

I opted for 1 Disenchant and 1 Council’s Judgment because 1W is much easier to produce to deal with Chalice and Blood Moon, and is easier to produce to deal with Jitte against D&T or Bant Deathblade. Disenchant being castable at instant speed is relevant against Aluren, Food Chain, Omniscience, etc. On the other hand, Judgment offers me a clean answer to TNN and Leovold. Being able to hit more than just artifacts/enchantments is good too... I'd be hardpressed to run 2 Disenchant because of how narrow they are, but 1 Disenchant 1 Judgment is much easier to justify.

Those are just two examples, but that's basically how the entire board was built.

[NegatorITA]

I've been working on tuning Esper sideboards for a long time now, so I feel pretty comfortable putting them together. The sideboard might look like a pile of random cards, but it's actually meticulous and well thought-out.

For example, I opted for a 1/1 split of Persecution and Deluge because there are matchups where Persecution is just so good, but there are matchups where it's not but Deluge is. ZP is much better against Infect, and the instant speed makes it much better against Rishadan Port against D&T. It's also better against ANT/TES/Belcher. The fact that ZP is never dead since it can pump Mentor + tokens is awesome, and being able to blank Bolt on Mentor or win a Battersull vs Gurmag fight is just icing. On the other hand, Toxic Deluge gives me a clean answer to Leovold, and is generally much better against Czech Pile. I don't even board ZP in against Pile, unless I've seen TNN. Deluge also deals with Prelate where ZP does not. So on and so forth.

I opted for 1 Disenchant and 1 Council’s Judgment because 1W is much easier to produce to deal with Chalice and Blood Moon, and is easier to produce to deal with Jitte against D&T or Bant Deathblade. Disenchant being castable at instant speed is relevant against Aluren, Food Chain, Omniscience, etc. On the other hand, Judgment offers me a clean answer to TNN and Leovold. Being able to hit more than just artifacts/enchantments is good too... I'd be hardpressed to run 2 Disenchant because of how narrow they are, but 1 Disenchant 1 Judgment is much easier to justify.

Those are just two examples, but that's basically how the entire board was built.

indeed and not being in your head make me think hard about the choices:
For example, what surprizes me is that only 1 deluge vs pile is enough, but probably that's my way of sideboarding:
I always try to make a sideboard with two of the same card, unless they do a similar thing (like reb/pyro, or needle/revoker rod since they hit the same AND different things) but otherwise it's hard to not play two deluge and two zealous instead of 1 +1 + 2 EE for me :D that's why I started my questioning with that post about EE utilities :)
i've no doubt it works, but I also know that If I want to play that thing (and indeed I'd) I've either to make my own board or at least understad why these cards are there :P (my brain is like: "only one FLUSTERSTORM? two please " ahha :eek: )

[Hanni]

indeed and not being in your head make me think hard about the choices:
For example, what surprizes me is that only 1 deluge vs pile is enough, but probably that's my way of sideboarding:
I always try to make a sideboard with two of the same card, unless they do a similar thing (like reb/pyro, or needle/revoker rod since they hit the same AND different things) but otherwise it's hard to not play two deluge and two zealous instead of 1 +1 + 2 EE for me :D that's why I started my questioning with that post about EE utilities :)
i've no doubt it works, but I also know that If I want to play that thing (and indeed I'd) I've either to make my own board or at least understad why these cards are there :P (my brain is like: "only one FLUSTERSTORM? two please " ahha :eek: )

The one Flusterstorm is actually the 3rd Spell Pierce, except it's narrower, but more powerful.

The two EE are swiss army knives which come in against almost every matchup. Where Deluge would be dead against Lands, you have EE, which deals with Vortex, Exploration, Drop of Honey, Chalice, etc. Against other decks, it can deal with Planeswalkers and other problematic artifacts/enchantments like Sylvan Library that Deluge cannot. In the meantime, you still get 4 sweepers vs Elves. EE is a faster answer to Chalice than Council’s Judgment, and less narrow than Disenchat. In the meantime, you still get 4 answers to Chalice. So on and so forth.

I actually IM'd Sam Roukas after the Open asking him how he liked the deck, and one of his comments was that he was suprised how well designed the sideboard was throughout the event.

[NegatorITA]

The one Flusterstorm is actually the 3rd Spell Pierce, except it's narrower, but more powerful.

The two EE are swiss army knives which come in against almost every matchup. Where Deluge would be dead against Lands, you have EE, which deals with Vortex, Exploration, Drop of Honey, Chalice, etc. Against other decks, it can deal with Planeswalkers and other problematic artifacts/enchantments like Sylvan Library that Deluge cannot. In the meantime, you still get 4 sweepers vs Elves. EE is a faster answer to Chalice than Council’s Judgment, and less narrow than Disenchat. In the meantime, you still get 4 answers to Chalice. So on and so forth.

I actually IM'd Sam Roukas after the Open asking him how he liked the deck, and one of his comments was that he was suprised how well designed the sideboard was throughout the event.

well well, are you two discussing the board changes he made too :P?
I'll see what happens shame I don't have much time to practice (if nothing at all) before the event :7

[Hanni]

well well, are you two discussing the board changes he made too :P?
I'll see what happens shame I don't have much time to practice (if nothing at all) before the event :7

Yes, the board changes he made were because he didn't have the cards on hand (Surgical and Needle), and couldn’t get any in time. I didn't ask him if he liked the changes better or not. I'd still run my exact 75 when I play with the deck again, though.

[TheArchitect]

I played at Channel Fireball 4k but did not do well. I made some vital mistakes, but also made some last minute SB changes which were probably mistakes. I am also not as comfortable playing the deathrite version. I am more used to the deck being a control deck that combos out and wins with mentor. As soon as you add deathrite the decks gets much more aggressive (not a bad thing, just different). I can see what hanni means with having another must answer early threat (stoneforge) being a good thing for the deck. But SFM is a good control/long game plan for when it needs to be. I might have to give stoneforge another chance ;)

[Hanni]

I played at Channel Fireball 4k but did not do well. I made some vital mistakes, but also made some last minute SB changes which were probably mistakes. I am also not as comfortable playing the deathrite version. I am more used to the deck being a control deck that combos out and wins with mentor. As soon as you add deathrite the decks gets much more aggressive (not a bad thing, just different). I can see what hanni means with having another must answer early threat (stoneforge) being a good thing for the deck. But SFM is a good control/long game plan for when it needs to be. I might have to give stoneforge another chance ;)

Sorry to hear that you didn't do well, but I'd still be interested to see what you played against or how some of the matchups may have played out.

[Shaka1333]

How has been Sword of Fire and Ice for you ?
In which matchup do you put it in ?

I have always played Sword of Feast in Famine in this 3rd equipment slot mainly since it is the only good equipment against combo.

How do you like Pithin Needle right now ?

[Hanni]

How has been Sword of Fire and Ice for you ?
In which matchup do you put it in ?

I have always played Sword of Feast in Famine in this 3rd equipment slot mainly since it is the only good equipment against combo.

How do you like Pithin Needle right now ?

Sword of Fire and Ice comes in against Czech Pile, Miracles, Lands, Food Chain, Aluren, Bant Deathblade... basically, any matchup with Baleful Strix or True-Name Nemesis, or control decks with few to no creatures.

Arguably, Sword of Feast and Famine would also get around Baleful Strix, and is a better choice against BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Maverick, and Aggro Loam, but I think SoFI is better positioned right now? Honestly, I'd say the choice of Sword is a metagame call.

I don't want equipment against combo though. I cut some or all of the SFM package against combo. Vs Storm, I keep 2 SFM and 1 Batterskull, but against Reanimator and Sneak Show, I cut the whole thing.

The reason for Batterskull vs storm is because it's serviceable against Goblin tokens, the lifegain can sometimes keep them from getting to a lethal Tendrils, whilst being a decent clock.

Against the other combo matchups, DRS + hatebears is a perfectly legitimate clock once I'm stocked with disruption and interaction, and Monastery Mentor can close the game out very quickly otherwise.

I always like Pithing Needle. I include it as at least a one-of in almost every sideboard I put together. There are so many problematic things that Needle deal with. It's at it's best against Lands and D&T, but I bring it in against Aluren, Food Chain, Infect, Turbo Depths, Turbo Eldrazi, MUD, and a ton of other matchups. It's a solid answer to problematic Planeswalkers like Liliana, Chandra, Tezzeret, and Dack. It's a card that gives me a unique answer/angle of attack that is invaluable to me. I wouldn't say this is a slot that it set in stone per say, but it does so much work in so many matchups that I don't see why anyone would cut it.

[Shaka1333]

Thanks for this interesting argumentation :)

Do you keep all Mentors against fast combo ?
I guess with your discard + mage package, it seems not that risky to tap out for it, not like in UWr Miracles where it is suicide on turn 3.

Are you 100% convinced that Surgical Extraction is better than Rest in Peace ? RiP is awesome against BUG Delver, RUG Delver, Lands, 4c Loam while being quite good against Reanimator and Storm.

You convinced me again (i used to like it when i played it) about Pithin Needle :) . Against Turbo Eldrazi and MUD, what do you name blind ?

I tested Grixis Pyromancer and UWr Miracles and i didn't like it so i will test your deck now :) (I still love 4c Leovold though).

Haaa Legacy is great, some many nice possibilities :)

[Hanni]

Thanks for this interesting argumentation :)

Do you keep all Mentors against fast combo ?
I guess with your discard + mage package, it seems not that risky to tap out for it, not like in UWr Miracles where it is suicide on turn 3.

Are you 100% convinced that Surgical Extraction is better than Rest in Peace ? RiP is awesome against BUG Delver, RUG Delver, Lands, 4c Loam while being quite good against Reanimator and Storm.

You convinced me again (i used to like it when i played it) about Pithin Needle :) . Against Turbo Eldrazi and MUD, what do you name blind ?

I tested Grixis Pyromancer and UWr Miracles and i didn't like it so i will test your deck now :) (I still love 4c Leovold though).

Haaa Legacy is great, some many nice possibilities :)

In general, I keep in all Mentors against combo decks. If you count Infect as a combo deck, then no, I trim 2 Mentor in that matchup (and some other cards) instead of the SFM package, for obvious reasons.

I'm not 100% on Surgical over Rest in Peace. There are definitely matchups where RIP is really good where Surgical is not, or where Surgical is worse. Examples include BUG Delver, RUG Delver, and Aggro Loam. On the other hand, Surgical is much better against combo decks, including Turbo Depths, and I'd rather have Surgical against BR Reanimator.

The reason I've decided on Surgical over RIP is because it has more synergy with the rest of my deck. Surgical is free, which is better for Mentor. Surgical works really well with Probe, Therapy, and Meddling Mage. On the other hand, RIP shuts down my DRS and the other half of my Therapy's.

A possibility certainly exists to run a 1/1 split, but I don't think I'd ever straight cut 2 Surgical for 2 RIP.

Blind naming Needle is totally context dependent. Typically, I'm not blind naming, instead saving it until something comes down that requires it, or I've seen their hand with Probe/Therapy, but again, it entirely depends on the current gamestate.

Against Turbo Eldrazi, there are a number of great targets. Early on, Expedition Map can slow them down from making big mana. Later on, Candelabra can slow them down from making even bigger mana. Much later on, Eye of Ugin can stop them from tutoring up Ulamog or Emrakul. If I have a B2B, Candelabra is the obvious name. More often than not, I'm not proactively playing Needle and blind naming with it. If they blindside me with an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, I'd like to have an answer.

Against MUD, there is Metalworker, Kuldotha, Ugin, sometimes Karn, Inventor's Fair, and occasionally they have other high impact activated abilities. Again, I'm rarely if ever blind naming here.

[NegatorITA]

In general, I keep in all Mentors against combo decks. If you count Infect as a combo deck, then no, I trim 2 Mentor in that matchup (and some other cards) instead of the SFM package, for obvious reasons.

I'm not 100% on Surgical over Rest in Peace. There are definitely matchups where RIP is really good where Surgical is not, or where Surgical is worse. Examples include BUG Delver, RUG Delver, and Aggro Loam. On the other hand, Surgical is much better against combo decks, including Turbo Depths, and I'd rather have Surgical against BR Reanimator.

The reason I've decided on Surgical over RIP is because it has more synergy with the rest of my deck. Surgical is free, which is better for Mentor. Surgical works really well with Probe, Therapy, and Meddling Mage. On the other hand, RIP shuts down my DRS and the other half of my Therapy's.

A possibility certainly exists to run a 1/1 split, but I don't think I'd ever straight cut 2 Surgical for 2 RIP.

Blind naming Needle is totally context dependent. Typically, I'm not blind naming, instead saving it until something comes down that requires it, or I've seen their hand with Probe/Therapy, but again, it entirely depends on the current gamestate.

Against Turbo Eldrazi, there are a number of great targets. Early on, Expedition Map can slow them down from making big mana. Later on, Candelabra can slow them down from making even bigger mana. Much later on, Eye of Ugin can stop them from tutoring up Ulamog or Emrakul. If I have a B2B, Candelabra is the obvious name. More often than not, I'm not proactively playing Needle and blind naming with it. If they blindside me with an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, I'd like to have an answer.

Against MUD, there is Metalworker, Kuldotha, Ugin, sometimes Karn, Inventor's Fair, and occasionally they have other high impact activated abilities. Again, I'm rarely if ever blind naming here.

Since I won't have a Back to basic for this event, what should I run in its place?

[Hanni]

Back to Basics is a great haymaker against a number of decks, but it's not a critical slot like most everything else is. I would consider it to be a flex slot, so what you put in there is either going to depend on your expected metagame, or what you want another sideboard card against.

If you're expecting more midrange grindy, maybe it could be a Painful Truths, Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, or another Planeswalker. If you wanna go greedy, maybe even a Sylvan Library or Leovold. Notion Thief could also be spicy.

If you're expecting Lands and Reanimator, a 3rd Surgical or a Rest in Peace could work. Containment Priest isn't bad if you are expecting Elves and Sneak&Show. Karakas could also be a good sideboard card.

If you want more for Delver, you could run a Path to Exile or Fatal Push. Perish hits your own Deathrites, but is really good against BUG Delver, RUG Delver, Elves, Maverick, Shardless BUG, decent against Aggro Loam...

Sam Roukas ran a Hydroblast, which doesn't seem bad either. Ultimately, I cannot make this decision for you. It's probably not a big deal regardless of what you decide to jam in to replace the Back to Basics.

EDIT: I would browse through this thread and the Deathblade thread for lists that others have posted if you want more ideas.

[NegatorITA]

Back to Basics is a great haymaker against a number of decks, but it's not a critical slot like most everything else is. I would consider it to be a flex slot, so what you put in there is either going to depend on your expected metagame, or what you want another sideboard card against.

If you're expecting more midrange grindy, maybe it could be a Painful Truths, Lingering Souls, Bitterblossom, or another Planeswalker. If you wanna go greedy, maybe even a Sylvan Library or Leovold. Notion Thief could also be spicy.

If you're expecting Lands and Reanimator, a 3rd Surgical or a Rest in Peace could work. Containment Priest isn't bad if you are expecting Elves and Sneak&Show. Karakas could also be a good sideboard card.

If you want more for Delver, you could run a Path to Exile or Fatal Push. Perish hits your own Deathrites, but is really good against BUG Delver, RUG Delver, Elves, Maverick, Shardless BUG, decent against Aggro Loam...

Sam Roukas ran a Hydroblast, which doesn't seem bad either. Ultimately, I cannot make this decision for you. It's probably not a big deal regardless of what you decide to jam in to replace the Back to Basics.

EDIT: I would browse through this thread and the Deathblade thread for lists that others have posted if you want more ideas.

I expect the top players will all have:
4c / Grixis control ( grixis is the deck I play too, it's pellenik list you see online, or, mengucci's 4c with anglers over leovold in the main and blood moon in the board)
Other than these, some aluren and some delvers/bant deathblade should be the expected deck
So maybe a library or a pw or something to defeat kolaghan/Liliana the last hope

[Hanni]

I expect the top players will all have:
4c / Grixis control ( grixis is the deck I play too, it's pellenik list you see online, or, mengucci's 4c with anglers over leovold in the main and blood moon in the board)
Other than these, some aluren and some delvers/bant deathblade should be the expected deck
So maybe a library or a pw or something to defeat kolaghan/Liliana the last hope

If you expect alot of TNN, Planeswalkers are less good. If you expect alot of Leovold, options like Library and Truths are less good.

I like the idea of Bitterblossom or Lingering Souls against these, although maybe another Toxic Deluge is better. I really don't know. I usually just bring in Back to Basics against Czech Pile and Bant Deathblade. Maybe Llawan, Cephalid Empress could be good?

Either way, I'm not sure that one slot is going to make or break your weekend.

[The Nobodys]

I haven't played much legacy in the past year, but I've been getting the itch and I have pretty much all the cards for this deck. However, I like to try spicy tech quite a lot, so I have a question for the esper mentor pilots in this thread. Would a substitution of the SFM package, plus maybe a Jace or two, for a thopter/sword package be viable? Something like 4 foundry/3sword/1 enlightened tutor.

Advantages could be:
-more blue cards for FoW
-better defense against delver/big beaters
-harder to disrupt once assembled/strain abrupt decay
-could cause opponent to overboard for gy/artifact hate

Negatives could be:
-harder to get immediate CA/value because of the 2-card combo element
-lose some control elements with no jitte

You guys have been playing this shell, so you'd have some input on if this would be viable at all.

[Hanni]

The core of the deck is Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe, Therapy, Force of Will, and Monastery Mentor. Beyond that, you can do whatever you want. DNSolver was playing a list with Entomb, Reanimate, and Grislebrand. SFM is in no way a core card for this deck.

If you want to try a Thopter package, I say go for it. I'd be interested to hear about your results.

[TheArchitect]

Sorry to hear that you didn't do well, but I'd still be interested to see what you played against or how some of the matchups may have played out.

I went 3-4 beating ANT, ANT, punishing Maverick. Losing to Burn, Grixis delver, Eldrazi aggro and scooping to a superior position to Pox depths while in extra turns. The Delver and aggro loses felt like bad luck, my opponents played badly and I still could not do much against them. Usually those 2 matchups feel pretty even or even favored for me.

The meta was weird, it was like 90ish people but I did not see any 4c pile and minimal delver. There was 4 FoW in the entire top 8.

Flusterstorms in the MD were obviously great agianst ANT, and delver, but probably are not necessary. I feel like I would be better off with the 4th therapy and maybe another removal spell. Also, I changed around my SB last minute and took out 2 Edicts for a 2nd EE and needle which threw off my general SB plan in a bunch of matchups.

Deathrites were good, but I am still more comfortable without them so the deck was a much worse control deck, and better aggro deck, that what I am used to. Deathrite is too good not to play though.

[Hanni]

Bad beats happen, I wouldn't let it discourage you from continuing to develop your version of the deck.

I went 1-3 in the second side event at EW on Friday, beating Infect and then losing to BUG Death's Shadow, Czech Pile, and Sneak Show all 0-2. So yea.

My experience with Deathrite was that it immediately ate removal almost everytime I played it, which then cleared the way for SFM or Mentor. Being able to trade one mana and a card for the opponent's one mana and a card felt pretty nice. Therapy hitting a single removal spell is tempo negative compared to DRS going tempo neutral. Not to say that clearing the way with Therapy isn't good, but baiting removal with DRS was great.

When DRS didn't die and I actually was able to get ahead on mana, I was able to deploy faster, which also felt good.

Mostly though, I just like what DRS does for the curve, by giving the deck better early game plays, especially on turn 1.

[NegatorITA]

Bad beats happen, I wouldn't let it discourage you from continuing to develop your version of the deck.

I went 1-3 in the second side event at EW on Friday, beating Infect and then losing to BUG Death's Shadow, Czech Pile, and Sneak Show all 0-2. So yea.

My experience with Deathrite was that it immediately ate removal almost everytime I played it, which then cleared the way for SFM or Mentor. Being able to trade one mana and a card for the opponent's one mana and a card felt pretty nice. Therapy hitting a single removal spell is tempo negative compared to DRS going tempo neutral. Not to say that clearing the way with Therapy isn't good, but baiting removal with DRS was great.

When DRS didn't die and I actually was able to get ahead on mana, I was able to deploy faster, which also felt good.

Mostly though, I just like what DRS does for the curve, by giving the deck better early game plays, especially on turn 1.

found a BtB to borrow, playing tonight to make some practice, yay!
some suggestion for the board in / out?

[morgan_coke]

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

[Hanni]

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

I mean, you could do that, sure. Without black, it wouldn't really belong in the Esper Mentor thread, though.

Personally, I'd much rather have Cabal Therapy.

I don’t think a 5c version (Esper + Grove) is a viable idea, but who knows.

[morgan_coke]

I mean, you could do that, sure. Without black, it wouldn't really belong in the Esper Mentor thread, though.

Personally, I'd much rather have Cabal Therapy.

I don’t think a 5c version (Esper + Grove) is a viable idea, but who knows.

Hmm, 5c Mentor.. what would that look like... maybe?

12 Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Monastery Mentor

29 Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x (secondary counterspell of choice)
1x Search for Azcanta

19 Lands
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
2x Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
3x Zealous Persecution
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize

That seems to keep most of the useful ideas and have ok mana? I dunno, just throwing it out there.

EDIT: now that I think about it a singleton Rally the Peasants should probably be in there somewhere as well. And obviously the sideboard is a mess.

[Seraphix]

Hanni, how would you characterize your list's matchup vs Czech Pile? I've struggled against that deck a lot with classic Esper Deathblade, but I assume Mentor does work.

Also, does 12 cantrips/18 land ever feel punishing against Thalia, Chalice, Leovold, and the like?

[twndomn]

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.

It's totally possible to revive Punishing Mentor, but it would be totally different from Esper Mentor. Obviously, if you run Grove, Back to Basics (B2B) is a no-go then.

Esper Mentor definitely has room for 2 B2B. This greedy mana base meta is perfect for the card, not horrible against lands.

[ozimek]

Would this deck work better in Jeskai colors, since that way you could run Punishing Fire and Young Pyromancer as well? Or is that dumb? Asking because I don't know. Thanks.
I have been splashing red for Kolaghans Command MD and REB in the board a couple of times. UWBr is doable.

After seeing the Hanni Stoneforge list in action, I can see the deck benefits from a must kill two-drop. YP seems like an interesting alternative to stoneforge, but it does put a lot more strain on the mana to produce red early. Kolaghans Command is a late game card, so splashing red for that hasn't been difficult. YP has more synergy with what the deck is trying to do though.

I agree that dropping black (probe + cabal) would take a lot of synergy out of the deck.

[Hanni]

Hmm, 5c Mentor.. what would that look like... maybe?

12 Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Monastery Mentor

29 Spells
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Punishing Fire
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x (secondary counterspell of choice)
1x Search for Azcanta

19 Lands
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
2x Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
3x Zealous Persecution
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Meddling Mage
3x Thoughtseize

That seems to keep most of the useful ideas and have ok mana? I dunno, just throwing it out there.

EDIT: now that I think about it a singleton Rally the Peasants should probably be in there somewhere as well. And obviously the sideboard is a mess.

This jus seems way too greedy to me. Honestly, I think you'd have a better deck if you cut out white. You don't need Mentor or Swords to Plowshares in this shell. Grixis Pyromancer with Punishing Fire is a completely legit idea that could definitely be a powerhouse right now. If I were to develop a Punishing version, that is the direction I would take.

I would also be very tempted to try out a package with Entomb, Anger, Life from the Loam, and a 1-of Worm Harvest as a tutorable finisher. Only problem there is that the deck starts to warp in a different direction, so maybe that idea isn't actually any good. I don't know. Either way, I would not include white.

5c is just way too greedy.

[Hanni]

Hanni, how would you characterize your list's matchup vs Czech Pile? I've struggled against that deck a lot with classic Esper Deathblade, but I assume Mentor does work.

Also, does 12 cantrips/18 land ever feel punishing against Thalia, Chalice, Leovold, and the like?

Czech Pile feels like a 50/50 for my list. Both decks are vying for control of resources, so it is very much a back and forth battle of attrition. Sometimes this deck can go on the beatdown with Mentor, but usually, the matchup comes down to understanding how to efficiently trade resources.

For example, using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix is horrible; you are now down a card. Likewise, the opponent using a Fatal Push on a Stoneforge Mystic puts them down a card, which is great for us. Save Spell Pierce for their 2-for1's like Hymn to Tourach, Jace, or Kologhan's Command, unless Spell Pierce is protecting a Monastery Mentor.

Force of Will should only be used exclusively for back-breaking spells played at critical times. Kologhan's Command hitting an equipment spell, JTMS when you don't have a Mentor + tokens already on board, or a Leovold that you don't have another answer for, etc.

Probe/Therapy + Mentor and Jace TMS are your best cards in this matchup. Shred their hand, and then either drop a Mentor and go wide, or drop a Jace and pull ahead on resources. SFM + equips are also good at outgrinding them if they either don't find a Kologhan's Command, or if you are able to nullify it.

12 cantrips and 18 lands does add vulnerability to Chalice. The deck has 26 1cc spells. Most of the time, a resolved Chalice for one on turn one is a loss. Still, the deck is less cold to it than Delver decks are in game one, and there are sufficient answers for it postboard.

Thalia is not too big of a deal. The extra tax isn't insignificant, but the deck is still capable of operating just fine more often than not. The 4 basics and DRS do alot of work against mana denial.

Leovold is public enemy numer one. Do whatever you can to keep him off the board. He shuts down most of what this deck is trying to do. Postboard, the deck has Council's Judgment, Toxic Deluge, and Engineered Explosives to cleanly deal with it.

[scapiander]

Czech Pile feels like a 50/50 for my list. Both decks are vying for control of resources, so it is very much a back and forth battle of attrition. Sometimes this deck can go on the beatdown with Mentor, but usually, the matchup comes down to understanding how to efficiently trade resources.

For example, using a Swords to Plowshares on a Baleful Strix is horrible; you are now down a card. Likewise, the opponent using a Fatal Push on a Stoneforge Mystic puts them down a card, which is great for us. Save Spell Pierce for their 2-for1's like Hymn to Tourach, Jace, or Kologhan's Command, unless Spell Pierce is protecting a Monastery Mentor.

Force of Will should only be used exclusively for back-breaking spells played at critical times. Kologhan's Command hitting an equipment spell, JTMS when you don't have a Mentor + tokens already on board, or a Leovold that you don't have another answer for, etc.

Probe/Therapy + Mentor and Jace TMS are your best cards in this matchup. Shred their hand, and then either drop a Mentor and go wide, or drop a Jace and pull ahead on resources. SFM + equips are also good at outgrinding them if they either don't find a Kologhan's Command, or if you are able to nullify it.

12 cantrips and 18 lands does add vulnerability to Chalice. The deck has 26 1cc spells. Most of the time, a resolved Chalice for one on turn one is a loss. Still, the deck is less cold to it than Delver decks are in game one, and there are sufficient answers for it postboard.

Thalia is not too big of a deal. The extra tax isn't insignificant, but the deck is still capable of operating just fine more often than not. The 4 basics and DRS do alot of work against mana denial.

Leovold is public enemy numer one. Do whatever you can to keep him off the board. He shuts down most of what this deck is trying to do. Postboard, the deck has Council's Judgment, Toxic Deluge, and Engineered Explosives to cleanly deal with it.

Firstly, amazing list! Enjoyed playing it over my usual Delver decks. This list amazingly was able to out race UR delver and outgrind miracles this week for me.

Would you comment on what you like in and out from the sideboard for Czech Pile. They attack at so many angles. Thanks!

[Hanni]

My current sideboard plan vs Czech Pile is:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-2 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Back to Basics
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

However, not all Czech Pile lists are the same. If I see TNN, I'd probably cut another DRS for the Zealous Persecution.

[scapiander]

My current sideboard plan vs Czech Pile is:

-1 Deathrite Shaman
-2 Force of Will
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Back to Basics
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

However, not all Czech Pile lists are the same. If I see TNN, I'd probably cut another DRS for the Zealous Persecution.

Hmm, if you board out all of the swords, how do you deal with a resolved Gurmag or Leovold?

[Hanni]

Toxic Deluge, Council’s Judgment, and Engineered Explosives all deal with Leovold cleanly, i.e without card disadvantage.

Most lists aren't running Gurmag. Regardless, Council’s Judgment and Jace can both deal with it, while Mentor + tokens don't really care about it. Depending on gamestate, especially since they don't pressure the life total much, Toxic Deluge is also a possibility. Equipping Batterskull to a SFM or DRS outsizes it; a SFM + Batterskull can contain it on defense.

If I see Gurmag in game one, maybe I leave one Swords in and cut the 2nd DRS.

[Hanni]

So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

Thoughts?

[NegatorITA]

So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

Thoughts?

unsure, let me talk about today first:

sadly few people showed up today, only 12 (or 13 and one dropped off?) we assumed that is due to Lucca comix (the biggest comix event in italy and EUROPE, like your gen con, to give you an idea)
btw
G1 vs Storm
I've basically lost g1 after a nausea which bring him down to three. I comment how cool would have been for me to have bolt, at which he fetches... going down to 2 life... at which my deathrite responds killing him. He got carried away from mystic + skull and mentor in my hand that he forgot about deathrite.
G2 I get discard, meddling mage and back to basic:
Yeah I know you probably wouldn't side that in, but I had a feeling I could snag that:
Honestly I just fetched duals because I'm not used to play with BtB so it locked me too, but I got his two U sea at once, cabal out his led the same turn and his double ritual the following turn locking the game

Vs FOod chain
It's a buddy of mine and I don't recall much because the game were intense:
G1 was well fought I remember I do the dream start of probe + therapy hitting two food chains.
From there I think I baited or discarded a decay (if baited with mystic) then slammed mentor and maybe jace and you know the game is over when that happens.
G2 I don't recall everything, I know I hit two griffins with cabal, but then I've made a bad call with meddling mage (called decay) because I had two answer to Food chain (disenchant and council) I didn't see enough pressure, so I forfeited to go at g3.
g3 we have just few minutes:
I got deathrite and mentor, he had double deathrite in play, but a crazy hand, full of answer: deluge, edict, and so on, just, a few mana: he edict me and I get rid of deathrite, but misses a land drop: here I get a nice two for one with Explosives while making a token which I think, he deluged, they call the turns while basically we both are blanked, so I remember to push the button by casting a second mentor and risking a brainstorm which leave me without a pitch for the force I've in had:
In the end it will pay off since I'll draw a pierce the turn before the propose food chain, making two token in his end step (Which I was about to forget, really jeeez), I untap and draw StP for his strix, trigger the 4 monks, cast a jitte for another trigger and swing for exact letals...
Jesus...

g3 g4 ID
no point in risking, we draw
I play vs burn
Long story short:
I fetch for basic twice, I lost twice for not having mana with on board 1 island + 1 tropical both games...

g5 miracle:
g1 don't have much memories because in the previous round much went on for me but outside of the tournament, I've watched some local strong player and taking advices, so probably I wasn't focused as much as I should have.
I know I was in a good spot but gideon ally of zendikar kept makings stupid tokens and I should have probably made some calculations about killing him instead of trying to kill gideon.
g2 I get stuck on two lands,
I try to probe and he pierce my probe... for good effect noneteless
I see the third land one turn too late, he already assembled gideon and jace, has everything in hand, so can handle me.
If I didn't miss one land drop or he didn't pierce my probe, would have stomped that hand since I had triple mentor...


so
the deck is fun.
It's a bit threat light, that's right, so TNN in twice actually may solve that problem.
Will make the deck better or worse? unsure.
Mentor in only three copies seems bad, but since we got a mini progenitus, which cope well with stoneforge, maybe it's all good:
stoneforge was never impressive TBH, good, but not so great, so TNN may get her working better.

[Hanni]

SFM isn't impressive in every match. Against Storm, it's not great and gets trimmed postboard.

SFM is at it's best against Delver and aggro decks, although it's quite solid against control as well.

Against Food Chain, SFM can be lackluster preboard. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great since it lets you swing past Baleful Strix and Misthollow Griffin while applying a major clock and draws a card.

Against Miracles, it's a threat that puts them in a position where they have to make bad trades. If they kill it with Swords to Plowshares, they're down a card. If they deal with a Battersull germ token and SFM with Terminus, they're still down a card. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great. Even Jitte is pretty good, since an active Jitte can shut them down from playing Mentor.

Glad to see that you enjoyed the deck, though.

[NegatorITA]

SFM isn't impressive in every match. Against Storm, it's not great and gets trimmed postboard.

SFM is at it's best against Delver and aggro decks, although it's quite solid against control as well.

Against Food Chain, SFM can be lackluster preboard. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great since it lets you swing past Baleful Strix and Misthollow Griffin while applying a major clock and draws a card.

Against Miracles, it's a threat that puts them in a position where they have to make bad trades. If they kill it with Swords to Plowshares, they're down a card. If they deal with a Battersull germ token and SFM with Terminus, they're still down a card. Postboard, Sword of Fire and Ice is great. Even Jitte is pretty good, since an active Jitte can shut them down from playing Mentor.

Glad to see that you enjoyed the deck, though.

Wouldn't say stoneforge was bad, just it didn't have the raw power mentor do, and it's a bit Mana hungry.
Yep I did all of these but keeping Jitte in g2vs miracle, will keep it next time.

[trinkets]

So I lost against D&T at my LGS last night due to some fairly bad draws... mana flooded both games, little to no creature removal drawn, etc.

At any rate, my loss to D&T got me thinking. While I've beaten D&T with Esper Mentor on more than one occasion, it's a fairly close matchup. On the other hand, I've played quite a bit with Bant Deathblade, and I crush that matchup everytime. TNN + Jitte is insane against them.

So like I said, it got me thinking. I wrote a blurb in the Deathblade thread before about some of the various pros and cons for both Mentor and TNN, and while I'm firmly in the Mentor camp because Mentor is absurd... why can't I run both?

I'm going to test the following list at my LGS next week:

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
2 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The debate for me was whether or not to cut a Pierce or a Jace from the maindeck, but decided that Pierce was only mediocre and Jace was incredible, so I trimmed a Pierce.

Cutting down to 2 Meddling Mage to fit the Pierce in the board seems fine for me. I've been on the fence about the 3rd Mage for a while, and there are matchups where I want the 2nd Pierce, so I think I'm okay with making that adjustment.

Thoughts?

How did you do with the addition of TNN? Was it ok, or just too clunky?

[Hanni]

I haven't tried it yet. I won't get to try it until next week.

[JacobRoberts]

New poster, lurked for a while. I brought Hanni's list to my LGS tonight, with a few changes to the sideboard.
-1 meddling mage -2 EE -1 back to basics because I don't have these cards and spent my store credit on mentors
+1 CJ to replace the "answer a problematic permanent" part of EE
+1 Liliana the Last Hope to replace the sweeper effect of EE while also being strong against grindy decks
+1 Vendillion Clique to replace meddling mage's "generally good vs combo" slot and give evasion vs elves, which is overrepresented here
+1 Hydroblast because I like the card

I went 2-0 vs merfolk 2-0 vs BUG delver 2-0 vs Elves 1-0 vs grix delver after an ID, so I'm obviously feeling pretty good about this deck. All day my opponents were telling me how strong mentor was vs their deck. I would be very hesitant to put TNN in this deck. Basically every deck has sideboard TNN hate that lines up very poorly vs mentor, like edict or -1 sweeper effects. I've also played a lot of D&T and a fair amount of bant blade, and I think D&T is favored in that matchup anyway, so equipment + TNN is not a sure thing to shore up that matchup.

My sideboard plans today were:
Merfolk: -2 pierce -2 jtms -2 fow / +2 CJ +1 disenchant +1 SoFI +1 deluge +1 ZP
BUG Delver: -4 fow / +2 CJ +1 deluge +1 fluster
Elves: -4 SFM -1 batterskull -2 pierce / +2 meddling mage +1 needle +1 deluge +1 ZP +1 lili last hope +1 clique
Grixis Delver: we didn't play out boarded games but it would have been -4 fow -2 jtms / +2 CJ +1 fluster +1 hydroblast +1 ZP +1 deluge

What do people think about those sideboard plans? Aside from missing EE which would have been nice in all of those matchups of course.

[Hanni]

I would be very hesitant to put TNN in this deck. Basically every deck has sideboard TNN hate that lines up very poorly vs mentor, like edict or -1 sweeper effects. I've also played a lot of D&T and a fair amount of bant blade, and I think D&T is favored in that matchup anyway, so equipment + TNN is not a sure thing to shore up that matchup.

You're right, Mentor is strong against alot of decks, that's why this deck is so good. Mentor is a rediculously powerful card.

That doesn't make TNN any less good in a deck with equipment, though.

The thing is, diversifying the threats has the ability to make this deck even harder to deal with. While there may be answers for TNN postboard, there are also answers for Mentor. TNN doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, for example.

Mentor is much better than TNN in most matchups for this deck, but there are matchups where TNN is very strong. I still haven't tested the split yet, but I very much like the idea in theory.

Also, D&T is definitely not favored against Bant Deathblade. I've never lost that matchup from the Bant Deathblade side. I'm not saying the matchup is unloseable, but it's a very favorable matchup.

I don't think that it's going to change the D&T matchup from tough to favorable simply by squeezing in 2 TNN, but it will make the Jitte plan stronger against D&T, Elves, etc.

[mentorfan87]

@Hanni - Any chance you will type up a SB guide for your list?

[Hanni]

I have it on a word doc on my work computer, but I don't have a personal computer these days, and typing it all up on my phone would be a huge pain. So maybe at some point I will, but I don't feel like doing it right now.

[JacobRoberts]

You're right, Mentor is strong against alot of decks, that's why this deck is so good. Mentor is a rediculously powerful card.

That doesn't make TNN any less good in a deck with equipment, though.

The thing is, diversifying the threats has the ability to make this deck even harder to deal with. While there may be answers for TNN postboard, there are also answers for Mentor. TNN doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, for example.

Mentor is much better than TNN in most matchups for this deck, but there are matchups where TNN is very strong. I still haven't tested the split yet, but I very much like the idea in theory.

Also, D&T is definitely not favored against Bant Deathblade. I've never lost that matchup from the Bant Deathblade side. I'm not saying the matchup is unloseable, but it's a very favorable matchup.

I don't think that it's going to change the D&T matchup from tough to favorable simply by squeezing in 2 TNN, but it will make the Jitte plan stronger against D&T, Elves, etc.

Eh, my experience with TNN has been very disappointing, outside of delver decks where it can be a fantastic tempo play. I'm more against replacing mentors with TNNs than I am the idea of including TNN in general though.

I've won more than I've lost on the D&T side vs bant. A normal bant 60 lines up extremely poorly with D&T's gameplan, except of course TNN + jitte/sofi specifically, and there are more opportunities for tight play on the D&T side than the bant side to win that fight. Post board, setting up a good ZP is very strong. So if I was going to try to improve the d&t/elves matchups, I'd just find room for another ZP in the board. But you obviously have a lot more experience with this deck than I do, I'm using your list after all. Let us know how the testing goes!

[The Nobodys]

So I've been testing a bit online with the thopter/sword package. I'm a little rusty in the legacy scene, so I feel my plays haven't been optimal necessarily (I'm especially bad with DRS mirrors), but at least I think my mentor play has been fine. A lot of my games have devolved into attrition/top deck wars, and I don't know, I've just been topdecking bad or something. Even with 18 lands, I feel I flood quite a bit, and I've been keeping one landers left and right. Variance, I suppose, although the deck is a little threat-lite, and weak to discard.

The thopter package has been under-represented so far, because I haven't been assembling the combo as consistently as I would have liked, but when it does get together, it's pretty much gg from any fair deck. I'll test a little more, I probably just need more practice.

[RinEU]

So I've been testing a bit online with the thopter/sword package. I'm a little rusty in the legacy scene, so I feel my plays haven't been optimal necessarily (I'm especially bad with DRS mirrors), but at least I think my mentor play has been fine. A lot of my games have devolved into attrition/top deck wars, and I don't know, I've just been topdecking bad or something. Even with 18 lands, I feel I flood quite a bit, and I've been keeping one landers left and right. Variance, I suppose, although the deck is a little threat-lite, and weak to discard.

The thopter package has been under-represented so far, because I haven't been assembling the combo as consistently as I would have liked, but when it does get together, it's pretty much gg from any fair deck. I'll test a little more, I probably just need more practice.


I am playing the deck for around a week now and the part with the flooding get's better as soon as you lern how to manage your cantrips better in this deck, especially the brainstorms.

I agree with your point concerning the attriton wars. If I struggle to close out games fast enough I will just be outvalued by pile etc. I feel the deck is very strong in the first 5-6 turns and gets weaker as the game goes on. If we manage to make enough value out of Mentor or set ourselfes up for a Mentor Play/Stoneforge Play until then we are likely to win.

I started keeping track of my matchup data since yesterday (10 Matches played - 7-3 yesterday). I will update when i have about 100 sample matches at hand (maybe sometimes next week).

The build I am running has the Standard 18 Lands, 4DRS, 4SMF+package, 3MM, 1TNN, 2JTMS as threat package. I am thinking about going up to a 4th mentor just because i want to see him as soon as i can cast him.

I also decided to test daze in the deck because when my draws line up normally i won't go any higher than 3 Lands (4at max!) before i definetly have to cast my first mentor. Having the daze to protect him alongside FoW (and maybe pierce) can help out big time. I also started testing a 1of chrome mox to accelerate out a mentor (and if I have a Mentor/enough mana I just play it without an imprint for prowess).

If intrested I'll post my list here tomorrow.

[webbwalker]

@Hanni I've read that you have mentioned that SFM isn't a necessity for the deck, yet you really seem to like everything they bring to the table for a variety of matchups. I haven't tried the deck with SFM yet, but i've tried it with and without another 2 cmc must-kill threat. The deck functions so much better with a 2 cmc permanent that either demands an answer or it will take over the game. Jace, vryn's prodigy seems to fit nicely in the deck but i wanted to get other people's thoughts on it as well. It seems to have more synergy with monastery mentor since once it it is flipped it can often cast 1-2 spells triggering mentor. However baby jace has never truly found a home in Legacy, so idk if i just need to give up on him for SFM who has proven that it can be a force to be reckoned with. At worst, he is a big lightning rod for removal that would have been saved for mentor. Thanks for and advice or comments:smile:

[Hanni]

@Hanni I've read that you have mentioned that SFM isn't a necessity for the deck, yet you really seem to like everything they bring to the table for a variety of matchups. I haven't tried the deck with SFM yet, but i've tried it with and without another 2 cmc must-kill threat. The deck functions so much better with a 2 cmc permanent that either demands an answer or it will take over the game. Jace, vryn's prodigy seems to fit nicely in the deck but i wanted to get other people's thoughts on it as well. It seems to have more synergy with monastery mentor since once it it is flipped it can often cast 1-2 spells triggering mentor. However baby jace has never truly found a home in Legacy, so idk if i just need to give up on him for SFM who has proven that it can be a force to be reckoned with. At worst, he is a big lightning rod for removal that would have been saved for mentor. Thanks for and advice or comments:smile:

SFM isn't a necessity for Esper Mentor. The core is the cantrip package, Therapy, and Mentor. The rest of the deck can be designed in different ways.

I personally prefer the Deathblade approach. I am also in complete agreement about having additional, on curve, high impact threats. I also like the fact that SFM dodges Red Elemental Blast. Jace and TNN still get hit by Blasts, but running SFM and Mentor significantly lessens the value of Blasts against this deck.

I have not tried baby Jace, and I would much rather play SFM if I had to choose, but I would not rule it out either. Likewise, Bitterblossom is also a viable 2 drop alternative.

[ComplexSystems]

My LGS has been starting a bi-weekly Legacy flight, and the minute I saw Hanni's list at EW I fell in love. I've been on Sultai Death's Shadow, but I'm taking a break. Due to card availability, I was going to try a slightly different version of the list you posted earlier with True-Name in it this weekend.

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Monastery Mentor
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Zealous Persecution/Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Flex: Containment Priest/Vendilion Clique/Gideon, Ally of Zendikar/Liliana, the Last Hope/Diabolic Edict/Karakas

I'm changing around the board based on cards I have/what I expect the meta to be. There's only about a dozen people that have shown up since we started and the meta is something like; UR delver, Grixis Delver, 2x DnT, Lands, ANT, High Tide, BR Reanimator, BUw Tin Fins, Merfolk, Bant Deathblade, Spanish Inquisition. I don't have the Meddling Mages', Toxic Deluge, Back to Basics, or the Swords of Fire and Ice. Instead, due to the high number of reanimator/combo, adding in an additional Surgical and Flusterstorm, adding in either a Verdict or a second Persecution for additional board wipe for DnT/Fish, Feast and Famine for combo, and then a flex spot that's still to be determined.- probably throw them all in my backpack and see who shows up.

From what I've read, siding out versus combo seems more straight forward in cutting the SFM package and siding in the hate. But I'm bit unsure how to board versus delver decks. On Sultai Death's Shadow (the only other legacy deck I have experience with) I'd typically cut my counter spell suite, but so much of the deck is built around resolving and holding onto Mentor, so we still want to side out forces here? Is a lot of the sideboarding more just shaving cards off the top, i.e.g -1 SFM, -1 JTMS, -1 TNN +3 sideboard cards, versus just

[Hanni]

Against combo, it's pretty easy to identify the bad cards to cut. Swords to Plowshares (unless against Reanimator), TNN, and SFM + equipment tend to be the worst cards depending on the specific matchup. I keep Swords to Plowshares against Reanimator and a 2/1 split of SFM/Batterskull against Storm. Jace isn't great against most combo matchups either (except Sneak Show), so he's another consideration if you need more to cut, but be mindful of your blue spell count.

Against Delver matchups (not counting BUG Delver), Jace is the worst card. 4cc, sorcery speed, blue, and can be killed relatively easy. Past that, I've been cutting some Cabal Therapy. Usually I bring in 1 Flusterstorm, 2 EE, and 1 Toxic Deluge by cutting 2 Jace and 2 Therapy, although if the opponent has TNN, I cut a 3rd Therapy for 1 Zealous Persecution.

BUG Delver is a different animal. Their postboard configuration changes them into a midrange BUG deck, so you have to board accordingly. That means keeping Jace, bringing in Back to Basics, Council’s Judgment, etc. The exact plan may differ depending on their exact list, but for the most part, I treat this matchup like Czech Pile postboard.

[JacobRoberts]

In case anyone is curious, I was on camera playing this deck. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/206826952?t=57m12s) My opponent, Tim, is one of the better players locally. Relevantly, I'm playing with 1 snapcaster main which has been absolutely fantastic. I lost this match but I think it was a good one overall, and if you care to, let me know what I did wrong :laugh:

[ComplexSystems]

I played a few games with the deck. My LGS event didn't fire, as there were only 5 of us that showed up so instead played a bunch of casual games with a few of the people.

1-1 against Sultai Nic Fit. I'm new enough to the format that I had never played versus Nic Fit before, so it was pretty interesting. Game 1 I had problem drawing any action, cold drew all four basics very early on so didn't get any value even off his first Veteran Explorer, and by the time I had action he had a Pernicious Deed out. I tried to force him to pop it on a TNN with a Jitte after having to go through too many hurdles to even get that out, hoping to draw into a mentor and go around him. He dropped Meren of the Clan Nel Toth, popped his Deed, and then cast a large Green Sun's Zenith for Thragtusk that I wasn't able to recover from. Second game I had a lot more action, cabal ritualed his hand, got stoneforge down quickly, and after about 15+ cards finally hit Mentor and went off. Once the other player confirmed the event wasn't firing he packed up and left, and I moved on.

1-1 versus Spanish Inquisition. I know what the player is on, and game 1 kept a hand without a land but 2 force 2 blue cards, SFM, batterskull, and cabal ritual. I successfully survived the first turn, and, after missing my first land drop and passing back, was in better position to rebuild. Eventually got to two lands, dropped stoneforge, stripped his hand, and built up a large batterskull with jitte. Game 2 I kept a hand that was something like cabal ritual, spell pierce, meddling mage, 2 lands, ponder, stoneforge, and kept. He killed me turn 1.

2-0 versus Death and Taxes. Both games I got lucky and connected a Jitte to a True Name Nemisis. The rest is just window dressing. Game one I got to go off with a monk token with a jitte and a Jace on the board too, which was pretty fun. My opponent's list doesn't have prelate, recruiter of the guard, or council's judgment; instead with mirran crusaders and some other things (the 3/1 that stops people from drawing more than one card, that I'm not sure how standard it is). So Jitte just eats up his board, and he never had good responses to True-Name either. Both games my opponent also seemed relatively low on action of his own and that I was the beatdown, in game two trying to double Port me to keep me off black.

I then played 6 games of 1-land Charbelcher vs Spanish Inquisition, which was hilarious, but irrelevant to testing the deck.

My impressions: I enjoyed the deck a lot and will probably finish building it out. When the deck works, it works great. For a deck with 12 cantrips, some games I still feel I never draw any action, action is too expensive, or somewhat slow to setup, e.g. stoneforge, following turn activate to get batterskull, can't attack until the next turn; somewhat hesitant to throw out mentor unless I have mana for a follow up spell to get marginal value out of it, TNN is kind of slow unless it's carrying equipment. Part of it I think is just getting used to it relative to delver, which is all about hyper efficient threats. Also, the 1-of SFM equipment seemed to find natural draws into my hands more than Mentor did.

[Hanni]

Looks like an Esper Mentor deck made Top 32 at SCG Worcester.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119260

His list forgoes the Stoneblade package for Strix/SCM/Push, which looks solid to me. I would rather have the 2nd Jace over the Unearth, but Unearth does seem like a solid inclusion in his list. I'm not a fan of his sideboard, but still, very glad to see people are still playing Esper Mentor.

Anyway, congrats to him.

[slikwilly]

He discusses it here: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/top-32-at-scgwor-drs-legacy/



Looks like an Esper Mentor deck made Top 32 at SCG Worcester.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119260

His list forgoes the Stoneblade package for Strix/SCM/Push, which looks solid to me. I would rather have the 2nd Jace over the Unearth, but Unearth does seem like a solid inclusion in his list. I'm not a fan of his sideboard, but still, very glad to see people are still playing Esper Mentor.

Anyway, congrats to him.

[NegatorITA]

He discusses it here: https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/03/top-32-at-scgwor-drs-legacy/

listening a little to the podcast now,
edit:
The stoneforge for me wasn't impressive, I'm positive to try the mentor deck again after playing other decks for a while, would run his maindeck - 1 unheart + 1 jace.
for the board instead, not running the SFM package I'd stick with your board (which was good) and play it like this (unless in the manwhile you hanni haven't discovered more powerful cards, mind you, I stopped playing the deck after way too little 4 months ago, so:

2 zealous
2 explosives
1 disenchant
1 council
2 surgical
3 meddling mage
1 needle
2 flusterstorm *
1 flex slot:

Hydro? Containment? 3d surgical? back to basic? 2# needle? 2# disenchant? all of these looks appealing:
hydro looks solid: answer to moon/kolaghan/chandra, yet falls under chalice again, while disenchant is kinda narrow but powerful (bridge/chalice/choke/moon among a few)
also a singleton liliana may also be good for miracle? or more stuffs like invasive surgery (powerful vs show and tell, loam, miracle in general too)
Personally I'll try the second disenchant since in my small local are we have some amount of: moon deck, stompy deck and food chain deck, then miracle, grixis delver and other random stuffs.
What do you think Hanni? :)

[maharis]

Glad you guys liked the podcast. Phil's success has inspired me to practice and play Mentor for the GP in April so we'll be discussing our updates on the next couple episodes.

I rebuilt the deck after his run and have gone 4-1, 3-2, 4-1 in three leagues. Seems pretty good. Currently testing a couple things like Search for Azcanta and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad over Jace (Jace is great but there are so many pyroblasts... and I am not buying one online right now haha).

[Hanni]

listening a little to the podcast now,
edit:
The stoneforge for me wasn't impressive, I'm positive to try the mentor deck again after playing other decks for a while, would run his maindeck - 1 unheart + 1 jace.
for the board instead, not running the SFM package I'd stick with your board (which was good) and play it like this (unless in the manwhile you hanni haven't discovered more powerful cards, mind you, I stopped playing the deck after way too little 4 months ago, so:

2 zealous
2 explosives
1 disenchant
1 council
2 surgical
3 meddling mage
1 needle
2 flusterstorm *
1 flex slot:

Hydro? Containment? 3d surgical? back to basic? 2# needle? 2# disenchant? all of these looks appealing:
hydro looks solid: answer to moon/kolaghan/chandra, yet falls under chalice again, while disenchant is kinda narrow but powerful (bridge/chalice/choke/moon among a few)
also a singleton liliana may also be good for miracle? or more stuffs like invasive surgery (powerful vs show and tell, loam, miracle in general too)
Personally I'll try the second disenchant since in my small local are we have some amount of: moon deck, stompy deck and food chain deck, then miracle, grixis delver and other random stuffs.
What do you think Hanni? :)

I've made a couple of tweaks to my board since the last time I posted, but they are only minor. For the most part, the board doesn't need to be an identical copy of mine, so long as you have a solid postboard plan for most of the major matchups.

I don't think you need the 2nd Disenchant, so long as you have at least 3 ways to deal with a resolved Chalice of the Void. With EE, and possibly Council's Judgment or Vindicate, you should be fine. But if your meta has alot of artifacts and/or enchantments, then sure, run a 2nd copy.

Hydroblast is a great sideboard card. It is applicable in a bunch of matchups. It has use against multiple combo decks, Moon Stompy, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Burn, etc.

If you're expecting a bunch of removal.dec, whether that be Miracles, Pile, Aggro Loam, or whatever... Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems like a fine choice too. Just depends on what you expect to face.

[NegatorITA]

Glad you guys liked the podcast. Phil's success has inspired me to practice and play Mentor for the GP in April so we'll be discussing our updates on the next couple episodes.

I rebuilt the deck after his run and have gone 4-1, 3-2, 4-1 in three leagues. Seems pretty good. Currently testing a couple things like Search for Azcanta and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad over Jace (Jace is great but there are so many pyroblasts... and I am not buying one online right now haha).

personally in these kind of decks would never play less that two jace:
In the podcast you mentioned that unhearth could bring back things to take advantage, yet that's almost what jace do too, and personally in this list, which only real dangerous win con is indeed mentor, I feel like having TWO extra win con (or side win con) like Jace are a must, but that's how I view the deck.

Personally I'd even try out the main -2 push + 1 PtE + 1 Strix:
extra blue pitch for force, extra blocker/cantrip for early turns in which you may really need the strix, still helps vs fatty dudes, and your removal all deals with Marit lage or other annoying stuffs (angler)
Also, you get the easily fetch your three basic basically every single game: from the blue you cantrip, from the black you therapy, from both you strix, from your white one you fire off your removal.
The cons is that you may actually need to be able to cast removal off white if somehow you lose your basic/dual whatever reason make you miss the color.
Obviously, I was just thinking about that change the other day, to make the deck smoother on paper, but it may be totally wrong once you play it, yet wanted to share this thoughts.


I've made a couple of tweaks to my board since the last time I posted, but they are only minor. For the most part, the board doesn't need to be an identical copy of mine, so long as you have a solid postboard plan for most of the major matchups.

I don't think you need the 2nd Disenchant, so long as you have at least 3 ways to deal with a resolved Chalice of the Void. With EE, and possibly Council's Judgment or Vindicate, you should be fine. But if your meta has alot of artifacts and/or enchantments, then sure, run a 2nd copy.

Hydroblast is a great sideboard card. It is applicable in a bunch of matchups. It has use against multiple combo decks, Moon Stompy, Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Burn, etc.

If you're expecting a bunch of removal.dec, whether that be Miracles, Pile, Aggro Loam, or whatever... Gideon, Ally of Zendikar seems like a fine choice too. Just depends on what you expect to face.


the meta shifts way too quickly, but certain decks are always there:
on the rise we have moon stompy or big eldrazi
miracle is always there.
some pile/loam floats rise and hide
Food chain is a hidden sleeper who often comes out to play at the tournamet so, I'm confidant with these archetype being around to choose disenchant over hydro (if food chain wasn't there would play hydro for sure)
Gideon is indeed nice, and vindicate too since pesky lands with pesky tabernacle... how do you deal with that without vindicate? even if they should be able to find tabby faster than we can find vindicate... :/

[Hanni]

Glad you guys liked the podcast. Phil's success has inspired me to practice and play Mentor for the GP in April so we'll be discussing our updates on the next couple episodes.

I rebuilt the deck after his run and have gone 4-1, 3-2, 4-1 in three leagues. Seems pretty good. Currently testing a couple things like Search for Azcanta and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad over Jace (Jace is great but there are so many pyroblasts... and I am not buying one online right now haha).

I get that Pyroblast is everywhere, but you're already vulnerable to it. It's like trying to run basics when you're playing a 4 color deck with greedy color requirements... you're still soft to Wasteland.

Point is, Jace is important for refueling when your low on resources. If you're going to cut Jace, it should be for Painful Truths instead of Sorin, I think. Cost on MTGO aside, I still think Jace is where you want to be with this deck.

[maharis]

I get that Pyroblast is everywhere, but you're already vulnerable to it. It's like trying to run basics when you're playing a 4 color deck with greedy color requirements... you're still soft to Wasteland.

Point is, Jace is important for refueling when your low on resources. If you're going to cut Jace, it should be for Painful Truths instead of Sorin, I think. Cost on MTGO aside, I still think Jace is where you want to be with this deck.

I see Search as filling the refueling aspect of Jace (and it comes down way earlier and starts delivering value, especially with Therapy/Souls/Unearth/Snapcaster) without being such a pyroblast blowout. I actually don't think the deck is that soft to Pyroblast, UNLESS they hit a Jace, which is why I like to avoid it... Sorin's synergy with Souls and Mentor is also a good way to close a game out quickly. He also is excellent against Miracles which is increasingly popular. I think in the Tundra/Jace mirror we would be unfavored vs. Miracles ... our Jaces wouldn't be as good.

I guess I just don't think our deck is as good a Jace deck as the other decks, which gives us more options in that slot... Search has been excellent so far to be honest, including in a mirror I played.

Though I do have a couple paper Jaces and plan to play the deck tonight, so I will slot him in and see how I feel about it...

I really liked Chart a Course but I think Search is just better. 40 cents to draw two cards immediately vs 40 bucks to pseudo-scry a turn later hurt my soul though haha.

[Hanni]

I see Search as filling the refueling aspect of Jace (and it comes down way earlier and starts delivering value, especially with Therapy/Souls/Unearth/Snapcaster) without being such a pyroblast blowout. I actually don't think the deck is that soft to Pyroblast, UNLESS they hit a Jace, which is why I like to avoid it... Sorin's synergy with Souls and Mentor is also a good way to close a game out quickly. He also is excellent against Miracles which is increasingly popular. I think in the Tundra/Jace mirror we would be unfavored vs. Miracles ... our Jaces wouldn't be as good.

I guess I just don't think our deck is as good a Jace deck as the other decks, which gives us more options in that slot... Search has been excellent so far to be honest, including in a mirror I played.

Though I do have a couple paper Jaces and plan to play the deck tonight, so I will slot him in and see how I feel about it...

I really liked Chart a Course but I think Search is just better. 40 cents to draw two cards immediately vs 40 bucks to pseudo-scry a turn later hurt my soul though haha.

Well, I agree that my list with SFM isn't soft to Pyroblast, as the only worthwhile targets are JTMS and FoW, and I cut JTMS vs non-BUG Delver and some amount of FoW against Czech Pile... but if you're running SCM, Strix, and Search for Azcanta, then Pyroblast is still doing work against you.

I'm not saying Sorin or even Gideon couldn't be good in the deck, I was moreso getting at Sorin not being a replacement for Jace. I think I'd rather run Bitterblossom over Sorin in the maindeck, if I was looking for a token maker.

I've never really been disappointed with Jace in this deck, but I've not yet tried Azcanta. That being said, if blue count wasn't a factor (which it is in my SFM build), I'm pretty sure I'd rather be on Painful Truths over Jace or Azcanta. I'd even consider Sylvan Library over Azcanta, tbh. Azcanta is slow... the filter doesn't do as much for us as it does for a deck like Miracles, and we have way too many other mana hungry plays to be able to take advantage of the flip land until deep into the lategame. And we really aren't trying to go deep into the lategame anyway... Mentor should close the game out way before then. Azcanta is great in Miracles, but I just don't see it doing enough in here.

I'd sooner play Predict before I'd play Chart a Course in this deck.

Counterbalance seems like it could be a spicy sideboard card, though.

[NegatorITA]

Well, I agree that my list with SFM isn't soft to Pyroblast, as the only worthwhile targets are JTMS and FoW, and I cut JTMS vs non-BUG Delver and some amount of FoW against Czech Pile... but if you're running SCM, Strix, and Search for Azcanta, then Pyroblast is still doing work against you.

I'm not saying Sorin or even Gideon couldn't be good in the deck, I was moreso getting at Sorin not being a replacement for Jace. I think I'd rather run Bitterblossom over Sorin in the maindeck, if I was looking for a token maker.

I've never really been disappointed with Jace in this deck, but I've not yet tried Azcanta. That being said, if blue count wasn't a factor (which it is in my SFM build), I'm pretty sure I'd rather be on Painful Truths over Jace or Azcanta. I'd even consider Sylvan Library over Azcanta, tbh. Azcanta is slow... the filter doesn't do as much for us as it does for a deck like Miracles, and we have way too many other mana hungry plays to be able to take advantage of the flip land until deep into the lategame. And we really aren't trying to go deep into the lategame anyway... Mentor should close the game out way before then. Azcanta is great in Miracles, but I just don't see it doing enough in here.

I'd sooner play Predict before I'd play Chart a Course in this deck.

Counterbalance seems like it could be a spicy sideboard card, though.

Interesting line of thoughts, and Indeed sylvan library came to mind as a singletone spicy sideslot who nobody can see coming from an esper deck :cool:

[maharis]

I've definitely considered Sylvan. Better to go full greed or still have basics as blood moon insurance?

[Hanni]

I've definitely considered Sylvan. Better to go full greed or still have basics as blood moon insurance?

If I were to run Sylvan, it would be a sideboard card vs decks like Czech Pile and Miracles where I'm not afraid of Wasteland. I'm a firm believer in the basics in this deck. The ability to function purely on basics is a big reason why my Delver matchups are as good as they are. Being resilient to Blood Moon and being able to run Back to Basics in the board is nice too.

However, I'd still prefer Painful Truths over Sylvan Library. A 3 mana draw 3 is more than sufficient in the grindy matchups.

[NegatorITA]

Played a little with the new list:
To me it feels even smoother when it works, and worse when not:
Like I still believe the idea of having a two drop who put pressure on the opponent, so it can:
A close the game
B free the road for mentor
Is crucial, and snapping/strix don't exactly do that
Feels like the card we need isn't there yet

[Hanni]

Played a little with the new list:
To me it feels even smoother when it works, and worse when not:
Like I still believe the idea of having a two drop who put pressure on the opponent, so it can:
A close the game
B free the road for mentor
Is crucial, and snapping/strix don't exactly do that
Feels like the card we need isn't there yet

I dunno, I think SFM does that role just fine. I know people have been hesitant to play equipment lately because of K Command, but I've done just fine against Czech Pile... feels like a 50/50 matchup to me.

[NegatorITA]

I dunno, I think SFM does that role just fine. I know people have been hesitant to play equipment lately because of K Command, but I've done just fine against Czech Pile... feels like a 50/50 matchup to me.

It doesn't feel smooth, but it does work
Will keep trying both versions and check how the game runs.

[kramer733]

@Hanni , do you think you'll ever stream your deathblade mentor deck? I'd love to watch.

[Hanni]

@Hanni , do you think you'll ever stream your deathblade mentor deck? I'd love to watch.

I don’t even own a working computer, so most likely not.

[Blink]

Hello gents, I've been tinkering with this deck since Phil breathed life back into the archetype. Theres concepts i was attempting to merge as i feel they complement each other well. i figured id through it out there and see what you guys think. My take falls more to the aggressive side taking the lines from the recent Esper delver popularized by the crew from down under. This includes Thoughtscour into angler which synergies's well with the current mentor lists need to churn through your deck keeping a consistent supply of spells. The pros to thoughtscour include
- it fills the graveyard with fader for Deathrite, delve, snap caster, unearth ...
- puts therapies in the yard. Which is technical card advantage with mentor in play.
-It enables a turn 2 angler
- it can disrupt opponents "deck ordering" shenanigans. Counterbalance, miracles, when an opponent brainstorms cars to the top of the library after you cast cabal therapy.
-Its an instant speed cantrip which lets you end step mentor triggers leaving your mana up for disruption if its needed during there turn.
- like all cantrips it lets you churn though spells while staying at card parody. Great for mentor and Angler.

Without further ado this is the list i'm currently developing.

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Gurmag angler
1 tomb stalker
1 Snapcaster
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (29)

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtscour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (Running main as fluster is better at protecting our threats then spell pierce, it also helps us in heavy combo match ups which we can be a little weak to not using daze or "hard hand disruption")
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 unearth (testing, not sure how effect it is with only 10 targets)
2 fatal push

Sideboard (15)
1 Umezawa’s Jitte ( control and midrange. on the fence with this guy with k commands steadily increasing in numbers)
1 Containment Priest (reanimator, sneak and show - unearth comes out) (I really have this in there because its non token lol)
1 Sanctum Prelate (lands, storm)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize (sometimes its easier to snip the cards you cant deal with then try and face them, also more looks at there hand)(this could move to the MD)
3 Disenchant (chalice, RIP, Leyline of the void need to be destroyed asap)
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Surgical Extraction ( with so many looks at your opponents hand and it being a free spell best to have more then enough you can even thought scour a opponent in a combo matchup to get there key pieces.)
1 Pithing Needle
1 hydroblast (we don't mind blood moon but its still a paddlin)

This is still being developed so any and all suggestions and opinions are welcome! Again this deck currently plays similar to grixis pyromancer builds but gets all the advantages of the best disruption and best creatures the format has to offer ( minus grisslbrand and emrukul)

Cheers!

[Blink]

Just to add to my previous post. There are some additions that have a potential slot in this list.
This deck leaves the 2 cmc slot position open in the curve so we are flexible after we identify our opponent game 1. We are often leaving mana open for disruption, churning through spells or if Deathrite is online and we are taking the role of the aggressor we are jamming a three drop. The suggestions i have fill the 2cmc slot to curve a little better and play stronger spells as a whole. A lot of this is theoretical and untested.

Bitter Blossom(sideboard)- Would obviously come in vs control & midrange strategies. Its just constant pressure that they cant deal with and plays well with jitte and zealous persecution that also come in in those matchup's. Good at stalling against Turbo Depths as well.

Search for Azcanta- Fills our graveyard a filters to what half of the deck (counter magic or spot removal) we need in each matchup. Then in the late game gives us the card advantage we are lacking with no Jace (who is a disaster in our curve and spends most of his time in exile from force of will)(He is amazing in this deck if he sticks) .keep the spells rolling.

Collective Brutality- Pulls us ahead if we are in a Deathrite war and helps blend the two halves of our deck. Also for the umpteenth time fills our yard.

Baleful Strix- We all know why Strix is great. the reasons i excluded it from my list include.
1) Everyone is hedging against it and i don't want to loose our card advantage by playing into it that.
2) It is a very slow and we could loose a turn when we are trying to aggressively kill our opponent.
3) Tarmagoyf is starting to rear it's ugly face again which we don't mind once we get ahead established but if it lands early and we are thrown off balance by disruption we can be temped out. So the design of the deck keeps spell types at a minimum so our anglers on average will be faster and bigger then goyf.

Now for 2 possible additions that are not 2 cmc....

Lilliana, the last hope(sideboard)- Clears the way for our threats specifically.

Path to exile- When its good its completely broken. This would mostly replace push in our 6 spot removal slots. Which also lets confidently fetch a plains in matchups that heavily rely on creature removal but have land destruction. lands, eldrazi, delver ...

Thanks for listening. I'm basically thinking out loud here so counter points are wanted! If anyone has play experience with any of this please let us know your opinion!

[maharis]

Went 3-1 last night, quick report from drive thru line:

W Aluren 2-0, just faster and has enough disruption
W D&T 2-1, I like this MU but RIP g2 slowed me down a lot
W big eldrazi 2-0, variance killed him as he had 1 land g1 and 10 mana sources g2 but I was able to neutralize his threats
L mono red sneak 0-2, I got T1 sneak-emrakul G1 and T1 seething song->wurmcoil g2, guess always mull to force

List:

4 DRS
3 Mentor
2 SCM
1 Tasigur
1 Strix

4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Therapy
4 STP
2 Lingering Souls
2 Search for Az
1 Fatal Push
1 JTMS
1 Unearth

4 delta/strand
2 sea/tundra
3 basics
1 scrubland/trop/flats

2 surgical
2 fluster
2 ZP
2 collective brutality
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 Sorin LOI
1 needle
1 nihil spellbomb
1 canonist
1 containment priest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blink]

Went 3-1 last night, quick report from drive thru line:

W Aluren 2-0, just faster and has enough disruption
W D&T 2-1, I like this MU but RIP g2 slowed me down a lot
W big eldrazi 2-0, variance killed him as he had 1 land g1 and 10 mana sources g2 but I was able to neutralize his threats
L mono red sneak 0-2, I got T1 sneak-emrakul G1 and T1 seething song->wurmcoil g2, guess always mull to force

List:

4 DRS
3 Mentor
2 SCM
1 Tasigur
1 Strix

4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Therapy
4 STP
2 Lingering Souls
2 Search for Az
1 Fatal Push
1 JTMS
1 Unearth

4 delta/strand
2 sea/tundra
3 basics
1 scrubland/trop/flats

2 surgical
2 fluster
2 ZP
2 collective brutality
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 Sorin LOI
1 needle
1 nihil spellbomb
1 canonist
1 containment priest


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Great result! wondering if you had any success casting search for azcanta in the main and collective brutality from the side. If so how did they feel? Clunky,Slow,great...

[maharis]

Search for Azcanta is great. Having a hand full of gas with Mentor is key to closing games fast.

Collective Brutality is pretty medium. I was playing it because I got ranched by burn at one point but I ended up cutting it and getting spell pierces in. Pierce isn’t great but combo decks can be hard so it’s nice to have.

Played 2 leagues last night with tweaks and went 5-5. Turbo Depths was three of the losses though, that is a really tough matchup. STP is great but they can beat it with steppe and discard unlike Lands.


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[Blink]

Search for Azcanta is great. Having a hand full of gas with Mentor is key to closing games fast.

Collective Brutality is pretty medium. I was playing it because I got ranched by burn at one point but I ended up cutting it and getting spell pierces in. Pierce isn’t great but combo decks can be hard so it’s nice to have.

Played 2 leagues last night with tweaks and went 5-5. Turbo Depths was three of the losses though, that is a really tough matchup. STP is great but they can beat it with steppe and discard unlike Lands.


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Quick question. If you hit a lingering souls off search are you putting it in the yard and drawing a fresh card?
If your still on lingering souls...

[maharis]

Quick question. If you hit a lingering souls off search are you putting it in the yard and drawing a fresh card?
If your still on lingering souls...

Oh yeah. That’s the dream!

Actually, the dream is turn 2 search, untap turn 3, bin therapy, play land, play mentor, play probe, flashback therapy.


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[Guitarnewf]

Went 3-1 last night, quick report from drive thru line:

W Aluren 2-0, just faster and has enough disruption
W D&T 2-1, I like this MU but RIP g2 slowed me down a lot
W big eldrazi 2-0, variance killed him as he had 1 land g1 and 10 mana sources g2 but I was able to neutralize his threats
L mono red sneak 0-2, I got T1 sneak-emrakul G1 and T1 seething song->wurmcoil g2, guess always mull to force

List:

4 DRS
3 Mentor
2 SCM
1 Tasigur
1 Strix

4 Force
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Therapy
4 STP
2 Lingering Souls
2 Search for Az
1 Fatal Push
1 JTMS
1 Unearth

4 delta/strand
2 sea/tundra
3 basics
1 scrubland/trop/flats

2 surgical
2 fluster
2 ZP
2 collective brutality
1 disenchant
1 vindicate
1 Sorin LOI
1 needle
1 nihil spellbomb
1 canonist
1 containment priest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How are you finding Tasigur in the main? Debating between the 2 strix main, and Tasigur in the side.

[NegatorITA]

personally I'm back to Hanni's list,
I like how stoneforge can still carry its weighy, I feel that without them too often I'm just waiting for Mentor to arrive, and not all games are like this (Or they can resolve it)


@hanni
Do you have any tips for the sideboard? :)

[maharis]

How are you finding Tasigur in the main? Debating between the 2 strix main, and Tasigur in the side.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I probed a D&T player who had 2 Karakas in their hand when I had Tasigur so that blew. But at least it has upside over Angler while preserving GY for Search, and it's a vertical threat to complement our horizontal ones. Keeping it in for the time being.

I've never really loved strix in this deck, but it's sort of a necessary evil thanks to Delver and Angler. I didn't play it in my most recent build. Could go either way.


personally I'm back to Hanni's list,
I like how stoneforge can still carry its weighy, I feel that without them too often I'm just waiting for Mentor to arrive, and not all games are like this (Or they can resolve it)


@hanni
Do you have any tips for the sideboard? :)

The thing about SFM is that I don't really think Mentor is the best companion to it. I can see why Hanni and others have done well just because of raw power level, but I feel like you have sort of opposite plans which can shave percentage points in some matchups. Of course, SFM increases percentage points in other matchups, like Burn. Still, why play Mentor over TNN in a DRS/SFM deck?

The "waiting for Mentor" problem is one of the reasons I like Lingering Souls. Souls can go on offense, or it it can buy you time (blocking Delver and other early threats). It shares a lot of the synergies with Mentor (spell count, resistance to point removal, Cabal Therapy) while not having any weaknesses that Mentor isn't also weak to. I wouldn't say this deck has a "settled" build at all though.

[Blink]

what is our game plan when we know our opponent is on Jace ? What are the best ways to deal with it, Proactively or actively?

[maharis]

what is our game plan when we know our opponent is on Jace ? What are the best ways to deal with it, Proactively or actively?

I think you have to be the beatdown against any deck playing Jace. Try to build a board that can't be dismantled by Jace -1. You have to watch out for sweepers but the nice thing about our deck is we get a lot of incidental value from our threat suite and so don't have to overextend. Don't play two mentors, for example, one is usually enough and then you can rebuild if you need. Hate to sound like a broken record but Lingering Souls is great against Jace. Also, Cabal Therapy is very strong against durdly decks playing 4 drops. I have had a lot of success against Miracles with this deck, even though I didn't expect to, just because so much of their deck is air that you can discard and counter their major threats very easily while forcing them to answer yours.

[Blink]

Is there a discord you guys are using for this deck ?

[Blink]

So i have been pushing this list and have had some promising matches. I practise against a lot of Grixis Delver and Miracles which have not been great but always comes down to the wire and with some tuning i think we can get there. My losses to Grixis D.are almost entirely determined by who keeps there Deathrite alive and miracles depends on how effect Pyroblast is. This is the list i have been playing, looking for advice and tips on how to make those match ups better. The same as before my model moves more to midrange then aggressive which seem to be how most people play this list. Recently i have moved Search for Azcanta in to replace Thughtscour and added Thoughtseize to serve as premeditated form of permanent removal to deal with spells we cant beat i.e Jace,Chandra, Truename.. It's also extra looks at there hand ... This is the list..

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Swords
1 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Search for Azcanta (Filters until we find a threat, once one sticks flip for card advantage)

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh flats

SB
2 Back to Basics (new edition haven't successfully cast it in a game)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis(May swap for Clique)
1 Containment Priest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Disenchant
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Etraction
1 Hydroblast

[kramer733]

Hey all. I recently started playing mtg legacy a ton more and my meta sonsists of the following:

sneak and show
Czech pile
TES
DnT

How do I beat the decks listed above?

I'm using Hanni Almer's list which can be found here:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17343&d=307280&f=LE

[NegatorITA]

meddling mage or a split of containement/ethersworn canonist?
Why do you prefer meddling mage? is it really better?
Can anyone provide some argument in while playing one vs the others? I think both have merits and Meddling cover more stuffs but it's also harder to play, even if it works better when you land a probe/therapy to gain information or know the opponent' decklist, thoughts?

[Hanni]

meddling mage or a split of containement/ethersworn canonist?
Why do you prefer meddling mage? is it really better?
Can anyone provide some argument in while playing one vs the others? I think both have merits and Meddling cover more stuffs but it's also harder to play, even if it works better when you land a probe/therapy to gain information or know the opponent' decklist, thoughts?

Meddling Mage is much more versatile. The sideboard is already extremely tight, and Mage is good against matchups where only Canonist is good, as well as matchups where only Containment Priest is good. Either of the more specific options is typically going to be more powerful at the specific intended matchups, but it's not really a big deal. The deck already has countermagic + discard... adding hatebears as a 3rd component is brutal as-is.

The other factor is that Ethersworn Canonist is anti-synergistic with the plan of chain casting spells with Mentor.

Not only that, I bring Mage in for some matchups where I wouldn't bring in neither Canonist nor Priest, such as against Lands and Turbo Depths.

Lastly, there is a lot of synergy with Mage in this deck due to Probe + Therapy providing information about the opponent's hand.

[kramer733]

Hey I recently donated to a streamer named "Phil Gallagher" of Thraben University to play. He regularly posts on the DnT thread here. Anyway, He played Hanni Alnimer's mentor deathblade list and I thought I'd show you guys the stream.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thraben%20university%20mentorblade

I think he has some interesting remarks on the decklist on the second part of the mentorblade stream.

[Hanni]

Thanks for the link to his stream. It's always great to watch games with this deck. I especially liked how he ran over BUG Midrange in games 2 and 3 with Mentor. I feel like his Goblins opponent scooped them up way too early both games, though.

There were lines that he took that I would have done differently, including sideboarding decisions, but it was still impressive for his first time playing the deck. As he said at the end, there are so many different lines of play each turn; it takes a very long time to master this sort of deck. Hell, I'm an amateur with it myself. So kudos to him.

The stream ended with him at 2-1. Did he finish the league, and if so, what did he play against and what was his final record?

Oh, and although I haven't played any magic in a very long time, I'm glad that people have not forgotten about this deck!

[kramer733]

Thanks for the link to his stream. It's always great to watch games with this deck. I especially liked how he ran over BUG Midrange in games 2 and 3 with Mentor. I feel like his Goblins opponent scooped them up way too early both games, though.

There were lines that he took that I would have done differently, including sideboarding decisions, but it was still impressive for his first time playing the deck. As he said at the end, there are so many different lines of play each turn; it takes a very long time to master this sort of deck. Hell, I'm an amateur with it myself. So kudos to him.

The stream ended with him at 2-1. Did he finish the league, and if so, what did he play against and what was his final record?

Oh, and although I haven't played any magic in a very long time, I'm glad that people have not forgotten about this deck!

Hey Hanni, I built this deck myself as my first legacy deck and really my first try at competitive magic. Do you have any pointers for noobs like me? There's another video of him on twitch where he completes the league going 3-2. He lost to ANT and they went off pretty quickly. His twitch username is deathandtaxesftw I think and his profile has the last bit of video for this stream. I'm on a work computer atm but whenever I'm not, i'll try and find the last bit of the league and link it here. I'm not sure what the other deck he played against though.

[Hanni]

Hey Hanni, I built this deck myself as my first legacy deck and really my first try at competitive magic. Do you have any pointers for noobs like me? There's another video of him on twitch where he completes the league going 3-2. He lost to ANT and they went off pretty quickly. His twitch username is deathandtaxesftw I think and his profile has the last bit of video for this stream. I'm on a work computer atm but whenever I'm not, i'll try and find the last bit of the league and link it here. I'm not sure what the other deck he played against though.

The best advice I can give is to play more magic. If you're new, the best thing to do to get better is to play as much as you can. Things like XMage or MTGO are great places to get in extra games if you don't have a regular playgroup.

Beyond that, read through more deck threads here on The Source. There is a wealth of information here.

In regards to tips with this deck specifically?

1) Gitaxian Probe is going to be really good for you, as it will help you know what your opponent's hand and lines of play are, and allow you to respond accordingly.

2) Don't cast a blind Cabal Therapy if you have no idea what your opponent is playing, even if it is your only turn 1 play.

3) When playing a blind Cabal Therapy, it is usually best to name the most problematic card. Sometimes, as you get better, you can sort of soul read what they have based on previous lines they have taken during the game, among other factors like known quantity of a card vs how many you've see so far, but those are more advanced plays that take a great deal of format knowledge.

4) Don't be afraid to slam SFM on turn 2, especially if you have backup threats. Unless you've Probe'd and know that you need to play around Daze or removal or whatever, it's usually correct to just go for it.

5) Don't be upset when your DRS eats removal. It's the weakest threat in the deck, and you'd much rather lose a DRS than a Mentor.

6) In most matchups, you need to be patient with Force of Will. You shouldn't just Force the first relevant thing the opponent does, at least most of the time. This deck isn't a tempo deck like Delver; you should be saving Force of Will to deal with a critical card that can swing the matchup, like an opposing Jace. This isn't a hard fast rule, of course, and it can take a while to learn how and when to pull the trigger.

7 ) Don't just randomly waste cantrips. If there isn't anything specific you are looking for, you probably shouldn't be casting them. This is especially true for this deck because of how powerful they are once you have a Mentor on board.

8) Be patient with Brainstorm. It is almost always wrong to cast Brainstorm on turn 1. You really want a shuffle effect to maximize Brainstorm; don't forget that SFM is also a shuffle effect. Also be aware that Brainstorm gets better with more cards in hand.

There's likely a million more things that could be said, but the best experience is to simply play more with the deck.

[kramer733]

Hey Hanni, here's the link to the rest of the matchups in the league.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/268254336

[kramer733]

This deck is super dead now, isn't it?

[maharis]

This deck is super dead now, isn't it?

Would require fundamental rework but yes it's in a lot of trouble.

[Hanni]

Deck would have been just fine if it was just a DRS ban, but losing Probe pretty much kills this deck for me, unfortunately.

[Brael]

I think this deck has some legs in a post ban world. The reason why is that Deathrite Shaman has effectively unbanned two good blue cards:
Cryptic Serpent and Intuition

Intuition has the same powerful synergies it used to have with Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy, but there's also Monastery Mentor to take advantage.

Also, by throwing cards into the GY we can accelerate the Serpent which at maximum discount is basically a blue Gurmag Angler.

It's a wide open meta now, so lists are hard, but this is where I'm starting... thoughts?

4 Cryptic Serpent
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Intuition
4 Path to Exile
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Ponder
1 Teferi
1 JTMS
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

[Hanni]

I agree that Intuition becomes a fantastic card again with DRS gone, but using it to grab Lingering Souls is silly. Intuition can grab Loam/Stage/Depths and just win the game, instead of making a couple of 1/1 flying tokens.

The fact is, this deck was built around Probe and Therapy. Without Probe, there is little reason to play this deck over Miracles or a Stoneblade deck with TNN... and if I'm running Intuition, I'm playing The Mind Harvester instead.

[kramer733]

Esper mentor seems to be alive

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2018-07-07

PL00FADOOF (5-0)'d with the list.

Here's the decklist

MAINBOARD

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

2 Baleful Strix
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Council's Judgment
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD

1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Vendilion Clique

He also provides a mini tournament report and deck tech

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/8wv7w6/mtgo_legacy_constructed_league_july_7_2018/e1zbs79/

[MorphBerlin]

MAINBOARD

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Baleful Strix
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Council's Judgment
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD

1 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique



I used the list for our weekly and made some minor changes (marked in bolt) due to card availability (didn't have a Gideon and 2nd IoK) and personal preference (I see no reason to play JvP, and Storm is played alot locally).

R1 D&T draw (win) 1-1


G1 Trading one for one until I can stick Jace for a couple of turns and then clean up with mentor
G2 Cannonist and Recruiter + Flickerwhisp Tempo me, because I have 1 Jace and 2 snapcastermages sitting useless in my Hand
G3 Grind and go Lili into Jace but can only stick Mentor on turn 1 of extra turns and I am a couple points short of lethal. He ends up in the finals so i can't fault him for not scooping

R2 Food Chain W 2-0


G1 I win a tight race on one life while tempoing with 2 FoW (Manipulate Fate and Balista)
G2 Timely Verdict hits Leovold and Trinket Mage and I can grind out with mentor and jace after that

R3 4c loam L 0-2


G1 I Keep Tundra, Sea, Ponder, 4 other spells. Play land cast ponder, 3 nonlands, shuffle, no land, opp wastes me, I draw no land, land go, opp waste me, I scoop
G2 I keep a bad hand but it has land, ponder, RIP, I ponder, 3 non-land shuffle, opp goes T1 Chalice, I can't cast Rip because i fetched an Island, scoop, GG WP...

R4 UBg Reanimator W 2-0


G1 I spellpierce a brainstorm on T1, then my Opp does a whole lot of nothing until hardcasting Elish Norn when I have allready got Mento plus 2 Tokens. But I have 3 Counters in Hand at that point.
G2 My hatefull board is usefull for once and I stick RIP on T3 or 4 and slowly beat down with snaps and strixes

I like the Mainboard, but would make some SB changes:

I am not sure if hymn has a place in the main, maybe its a sb option because combo decks don't attack your mana.
I would definitly cut down on the gy hate (play 3 surgical cause they synergize with snappy)
add either 2 Disenchants or 1 Disentchant 1 C.Judgement to the SB.
A 2nd EE could also be usefull.
I would defintly play 2 sweepers in the board, maybe even 3 cards ( Zaleous persecution would be a good addition also). Its card to keep up with DNT and Elves and such by just 1-for-1-ing

[koten]

Nicklas Krull took down MKM Bologna with Esper Mentor. Is there anyone else exploring this archetype still?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20996&d=339347&f=LE

[TheArchitect]

Nicklas Krull took down MKM Bologna with Esper Mentor. Is there anyone else exploring this archetype still?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20996&d=339347&f=LE

I haven't been active in this thread in a long time. I still haven't even updated the OP since Dig and Probe were banned, but I have playing this deck again lately as well. It seems pretty solid right now. The list I play is quite a bit different from the MKM winners. That list seems super greedy on casting costs and would scoop to moon decks. I generally like to avoid any WW or BB costing spells in the MD, and only have 1 or 2 in the SB as well.

[Doishy]

I haven't been active in this thread in a long time. I still haven't even updated the OP since Dig and Probe were banned, but I have playing this deck again lately as well. It seems pretty solid right now. The list I play is quite a bit different from the MKM winners. That list seems super greedy on casting costs and would scoop to moon decks. I generally like to avoid any WW or BB costing spells in the MD, and only have 1 or 2 in the SB as well.

Do you have an example list of what you are looking at for this?

[TheArchitect]

Do you have an example list of what you are looking at for this?

Here's the list I have been trying:
20 lands:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Monastery Mentor

2 Bitterblossom

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares


Sideboard:

1 Celestial Purge
1 Council's Judgment
2 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Zealous Persecution

Bitterblossom, number of Jaces, cantrip/land count are all things I am still tinkering with. The list is pretty all in on Mentor being the way to generate value. I like that the MKM list was trying to remedy that problem of the deck with hymn and search, I just don't think they are the cards we want to be playing.

[Hanni]

I haven't played magic in a while, but I retweaked my old list to swap DRS for Mother of Runes, Probe for Preordain, and Cabal Therapy for Thoughtseize. I also cut the JTMS for Predict (experimental)... or maybe I was doing a 1/1 split with Spell Pierce and JTMS? Anyway, Mother of Runes is fantastic.

I'm actually considering taking a page out of Buried Phoenix's book and cutting the FoW from the main deck for Cabal Therapy, at least for testing purposes.

[LarsLeif]

I also started testing this deck a few months ago. I found that you need to add some punch to the more stock lists to make it worth not just playing miracles with mentor. Nicklas Krull did this with 4 Hymn, while I have gone another route - splashing red. After about a hundred matches this were I'm at right now:

CREATURES (9)
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor

ENCHANTMENTS (2)
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Counterbalance

SORCERIES (13)
4 Ponder
3 Terminus
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Preordain
1 Vindicate

INSTANTS (14)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Kolaghan’s Command

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Batterskull


It has been very good for me thus far, and you actually get a better manabase than you get if you splash for hymn (you can lead with all your basics without losing almost any tempo, which is very convenient). Terminus is great too I think, but you can probably play more mentors and cantrips in some metas instead.

[CptHaddock]

Nicklas Krull took down MKM Bologna with Esper Mentor. Is there anyone else exploring this archetype still?

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20996&d=339347&f=LE

He wrote a blog post about the deck as an fyi.

https://mtgthelegacy.blogspot.com/2019/01/mkm-series-bologna-2019-legacy.html?fbclid=IwAR1Us6J8XZDg50-SPn4S6Fldq8wCaGourqQ0agb8ADoOIYOflpB5gNeJHJA

[TheArchitect]

He wrote a blog post about the deck as an fyi.

https://mtgthelegacy.blogspot.com/2019/01/mkm-series-bologna-2019-legacy.html?fbclid=IwAR1Us6J8XZDg50-SPn4S6Fldq8wCaGourqQ0agb8ADoOIYOflpB5gNeJHJA

Thanks for sharing this!

I have not thought of trying Mom or splashing for K Command, but both are worth exploring and I will try them.