Esper Mentor

[TheArchitect]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/frf/20.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ju/62.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/35.jpg


Since Monastery Mentor was spoiled I have been trying to find the right build of an mentor deck, because mentor is a broken card. I tried UWr in a stoneblade shell but also in a shell with top/CB/terminus (similar to Claudios GP winning list) but black seemed like the more appealing splash. I tried all kinds of configurations esper, testing delvers, linger souls, stoneforge, cavern of souls, deathrites, 2-4 planewalkers, and CB/top/terminus. Through my various iterations of the deck I initially started out with 2-3 mentors and 2 therapies, but quickly realized that therapy and mentor where the best part of the deck since every time I drew either card my deck got to be broken. After upping both to 4ofs everything seemed to come together. Ultimately this is what I have come to:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

2 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Counterspell
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Null Rod
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Toxic Deluge

The list I settled on is similar to what Kotter alluded to in this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31275_Legacy-My-Top-Tier.html
It is essentially grixis control with white instead of red. Grixis control at this point is a very proven archtype, and this gives up some of red's strengths for some very good benefits of white.

Grixis:
- Cheaper main threat (pyromancer)
- Bolts (reach)
- Blasts, this is probably the biggest boon
- Access to blood moon and better artifact hate
Esper:
- Meddling mage/cannonist are amazing right now with Omnitell and storm being the combo decks to beat.
- Mentor being objectively more powerful than pyromancer and kills much faster. All tokens demand quick anwsers.
- Way better late game. Mentor is a much better threat than pyro and if cabal therapy is drawn late in the game, it's not dead, it's an overrun.*
- Not having any difficulty with goyf, angler, etc
- Better sweepers (Zealous Persecution) goes a long way in helping vs elves, mentor, or mother of runes decks.
- Access to life gain, enchantment hate, and versatile removal cards like council's judgment or vindicate.

*this is a big deal. Untapping with mentor and 2-3 tokens is almost always game over.


The list I have above is probably far from perfect. The 2/2 daze/counterspell split, the MD IoK, the SB deluge and timely reinforcements and the 4 MM, 0 Cannonists are all things that are likely not correct.

I have not played in any large events with the deck yet, but it has been very good in testing so far and I plan on attending an SCG IQ with this deck soon.

Is anyone else playing anything like this? Does anyone have any suggestions, especially with the bolded things above?

[twndomn]

The thing is..., people who made Legacy Podcast have attempted this while back:
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-010-brewing-with-the-brainstorm-boys
That was on June of 2015.

Now, the concept has been modified over time, but the most proven list I have seen is still this one:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=89171

[Richard Cheese]

Have you thought about just adding black to the Mentor Miracles build? Someone was doing that at our last FNM, and while I didn't get to watch any of his games, people seemed to really like the deck. The interaction between Top and Mentor is pretty insane, and Counterbalance is probably a lot better at keeping your Mentor around than a few extra counters. You're also really light on removal, and while Mentor is busted, he doesn't really come online quick. On paper at least it looks like dedicated aggro would have an absolute field day with this. Not that it's really a big player in the meta anymore, but I think you'd also have a reasonably hard time against the Delver variants. Maybe testing has shown otherwise?

If you're interested, I can try to track down that Grixis Miracles list for you.

[Webb]

I like your list a lot. I've played a ton with Grixis Pyro. If you want to max on Mentor and not go the miracles route, I think this is the way to go. I'm not sure about the dazes in your build, I've never liked them in decks that aren't lower to the ground. Maybe fluster or pierce main? I run pyroblast main in Grixis and its narrower than fluster. I also think you should max out dig through time.

[TheArchitect]

The thing is..., people who made Legacy Podcast have attempted this while back:
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-010-brewing-with-the-brainstorm-boys
That was on June of 2015.

Now, the concept has been modified over time, but the most proven list I have seen is still this one:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=89171

Thanks, I saw both of these things. The deck in the podcast is very different, being a delver deck. I did like a lot of his SB ideas but I think esper makes an even worse delver shell than UWR does.

The other list is very similar to my initial list I played around, but just focusing on the mentor and being more aggressive seemed better.


Have you thought about just adding black to the Mentor Miracles build? Someone was doing that at our last FNM, and while I didn't get to watch any of his games, people seemed to really like the deck. The interaction between Top and Mentor is pretty insane, and Counterbalance is probably a lot better at keeping your Mentor around than a few extra counters. You're also really light on removal, and while Mentor is busted, he doesn't really come online quick. On paper at least it looks like dedicated aggro would have an absolute field day with this. Not that it's really a big player in the meta anymore, but I think you'd also have a reasonably hard time against the Delver variants. Maybe testing has shown otherwise?

If you're interested, I can try to track down that Grixis Miracles list for you.

I think mentor miracles is also a fine deck but this list has less clunky cards and is far more explosive. Dedicated aggro? I have not encounted goblins, merfolk or zoo. However, a 3 drop that makes wild nactals every time you cast a spell probably chumps anything they are doing, snap+swords are also great against decks like that. Maverick or D&T are easy. Jitte is basically the only scary card. Burn is pretty much the hardest matchup. This is fixable with SB cards, but probably not worth it. So far in testing, its been doing fair against delver, 50/50. Daze actually helps alot in the matchup in letting you keep tempo against them.

Grixis miracles sounds interesting. Like UWR miracles splash black for therapy? In the esper mentor miracles I made it was tough finding room for miracles cards, probe, therapy AND mentor, I ended up cutting ponders, which is bad.


I like your list a lot. I've played a ton with Grixis Pyro. If you want to max on Mentor and not go the miracles route, I think this is the way to go. I'm not sure about the dazes in your build, I've never liked them in decks that aren't lower to the ground. Maybe fluster or pierce main? I run pyroblast main in Grixis and its narrower than fluster. I also think you should max out dig through time.

I am also unsure about daze. Like I said it has been great vs delver decks. Its pretty meh vs everything else, but it never feels too dead because making a 1/1 prowess guy late game isn't too bad. The cost of returning a land has not felt too bad since the deck usually isnt actually rushing to drop a mentor turn 3. Its equally potent, but easier to protect, turn 4-5 when you have more mana up.

The deck could easily support 4 dig but one issue I already have with the deck is cantriping into cantrips that find more cantrips. Like, if I need a counterspell/threat/removal and I brainstorm/dig and I just see half cantrips, half lands, thats not doing me any good. At some point there is such thing as too much cantrips. But maybe I am not at the point yet.

[Krimson Viper]

Have you tried including Lingering Souls in your build and testing it out? I haven't played with Lingering Souls with Mentor, but I have with Pyromancer and it's insane with Pyromancer. Mentor and Souls is the same color and it provides another attacker, which your deck looks like it's light on. Maybe trim Inquisition and a Ponder for two copies and go from there? You did mention you don't like cantrip into cantrip into another cantrip.

[btm10]

The deck could easily support 4 dig but one issue I already have with the deck is cantriping into cantrips that find more cantrips. Like, if I need a counterspell/threat/removal and I brainstorm/dig and I just see half cantrips, half lands, thats not doing me any good. At some point there is such thing as too much cantrips. But maybe I am not at the point yet.

This is actually my biggest issue with Grixis Control. In both of my Legacy Champs losses I just spent way too much time cantripping into cantrips when I needed interactive cards. That being said, you often want unconditional cards like cantrips with Mentor, especially since the cantrips don't cost you a card in hand.

I actually like the look of the IoK, but might Thoughtseize just be better if you aren't looking to improve your Burn matchup? Being able to take Force, Delve spells, Omniscience, and Jace seems better than 2 life against Delver.

[Waikiki]

I got my GP Lille byes and went day 2 on GP lille itself with esper mentor. The build is on the website at the day 2 archetypes. If you can't find it let me know and i'll search for it when I get home.

It's a really strong deck but has trouble against omnitell imo. It's really hard to keep up with that deck.

[TheArchitect]

This is actually my biggest issue with Grixis Control. In both of my Legacy Champs losses I just spent way too much time cantripping into cantrips when I needed interactive cards. That being said, you often want unconditional cards like cantrips with Mentor, especially since the cantrips don't cost you a card in hand.

I actually like the look of the IoK, but might Thoughtseize just be better if you aren't looking to improve your Burn matchup? Being able to take Force, Delve spells, Omniscience, and Jace seems better than 2 life against Delver.


I tried thoughtseize as well as a 1 and 2 of. What I found was that the life was often relevant, but since Iok is often followed up with therapy the 3cmc part did not matter much. I like the iok because it's like half probe, half therapy. It makes my therapy better, but also is interaction in it's own. If the meta shifts to include more things like jace or sneak attack, more GBx, less URx, I would go back to TS.

I'll look into that Waikiki, thanks for mentioning that. I'm glad you had success with it.

[Richard Cheese]

I think mentor miracles is also a fine deck but this list has less clunky cards and is far more explosive. Dedicated aggro? I have not encounted goblins, merfolk or zoo. However, a 3 drop that makes wild nactals every time you cast a spell probably chumps anything they are doing, snap+swords are also great against decks like that. Maverick or D&T are easy. Jitte is basically the only scary card. Burn is pretty much the hardest matchup. This is fixable with SB cards, but probably not worth it. So far in testing, its been doing fair against delver, 50/50. Daze actually helps alot in the matchup in letting you keep tempo against them.

Grixis miracles sounds interesting. Like UWR miracles splash black for therapy? In the esper mentor miracles I made it was tough finding room for miracles cards, probe, therapy AND mentor, I ended up cutting ponders, which is bad.


Right, not that it's really a huge concern because nobody plays Zoo anymore, but you're making the same assumption that a lot of people made with Pyromancer in UR Delver...that he just beats aggro because you make a million chump blockers. But against something with 12+ 1cmc spot removal, you'll be lucky to ever get more than 1 token. But nobody plays Zoo anymore, RUG doesn't have nearly the threat or removal density, and I don't think Jund or Junk are really big presences anymore either. 4c Loam could be slightly problematic just because they've got Punishing Fire and a bunch of sweeper options out of the board.

Yeah I think it was basically Mentor Miracles with Therapies instead of blasts. I'm really not sure though because my games kept going really long that night. I'll try to track him down online and see if I'm anywhere close.

[dsck]

Problems I found with esper mentor are the miracles matchup and dig through time decks with pyro/reb. Your dig will get reb'd/pyroblasted and theirs likely resolve because therapies arent just good enough against blue decks with top/brainstorm/ponder. Esper mentor with counterbalance lock sounds saucy and something I would like to test.

[grimskies]

Here's a list that I was trying:

1 Batterskull
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Marsh Flats

// sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Containment Priest
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Disenchant

It's based on the following deck: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/291388

I liked the list, unfortunately I went to time quite often (but maybe that was caused by my play style :smile:).

[TheArchitect]

Problems I found with esper mentor are the miracles matchup and dig through time decks with pyro/reb. Your dig will get reb'd/pyroblasted and theirs likely resolve because therapies arent just good enough against blue decks with top/brainstorm/ponder. Esper mentor with counterbalance lock sounds saucy and something I would like to test.

This has been one major interaction that has given me trouble. However, if you leverage your therapies right, they will do more work for then an opposing red blast can do.

Punishing fire is really good against this deck. Surgical out of the board helps vs punishing fire. At least vs lands (not jund of 4c Loam) meddling mage beats pfire.

Here is the list Waikiki mentioned:
Planeswalker (2)
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (7)
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (14)
2 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
Instant (18)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Dig Through Time
4 Swords to Plowshares
Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Containment Priest


I like a lot of things about his list, but I can see why omnitell gave him trouble. I would not have less than 4 mages/cannonists in addition to the other counters/discard. I dont think Containment priest is worth playing these days, its only worth bringing in vs Reanimator and Elves in the current meta. I have tried elspeth in this deck, but not Sorin, who seems very good here.

[Snief]

This has been one major interaction that has given me trouble. However, if you leverage your therapies right, they will do more work for then an opposing red blast can do.

Punishing fire is really good against this deck. Surgical out of the board helps vs punishing fire. At least vs lands (not jund of 4c Loam) meddling mage beats pfire.

Here is the list Waikiki mentioned:
Planeswalker (2)
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (7)
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (14)
2 Lingering Souls
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
Instant (18)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Dig Through Time
4 Swords to Plowshares
Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Containment Priest


I like a lot of things about his list, but I can see why omnitell gave him trouble. I would not have less than 4 mages/cannonists in addition to the other counters/discard. I dont think Containment priest is worth playing these days, its only worth bringing in vs Reanimator and Elves in the current meta. I have tried elspeth in this deck, but not Sorin, who seems very good here.

I'll give this list a try. I am testing the following lately, taking it for a spin tomorrow :
3 Mentor
1 Snapcaster
2 Flip Jace

4 Force
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 DTT
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Explosives
4 StoP
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
21 Lands

Notable sideboard cards are 3 Counterbalance and 1 additional top. In testing the deck felt good, haven't played against Omnishow so far. Will report after tourney though.

[TheArchitect]

For anyone curious, this is the esper CB/top/miracles list I tried out very briefly (but might be better than without):

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dig Through Time

4 Cabal Therapy

1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares

Its tricky fitting everything in, it slows down the deck alot, and adds more clunky cards. Note that there are now no ponders or jaces. I think if we are not playing 4 probes+therapy, we might as well just play UWR. That's probably just better, but I don't think UWR mentor miracles is necessarily better than Esper Mentor without CB/Top.

[Waikiki]

I got to play vs miracles 3 times with the mentor deck and I haven't lost so far. Lingering souls / walkers are really strong in that matchup. That in combination with shutting down their top.

Omni-tell is indeed very hard due to them getting just enough time to assemble their combo with a dig through time. Against other dig through time decks I have less trouble cause the cards they are getting are not as powerfull as the omnitell cards. It's just a battle of tempo.

The 1 off containment priest has been an allstart. It's so good against random decks and reanimator, elves, dredge, anything with vial, sneak and show etc. It has won me too many games to be cut.

[Snief]

I'll give this list a try. I am testing the following lately, taking it for a spin tomorrow :
3 Mentor
1 Snapcaster
2 Flip Jace

4 Force
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 DTT
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Explosives
4 StoP
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
21 Lands

Notable sideboard cards are 3 Counterbalance and 1 additional top. In testing the deck felt good, haven't played against Omnishow so far. Will report after tourney though.

Played the deck yesterday to a 3-2 finish. Conclusions :
- Mentor is a sick card (duh!)
- wins: RUG Deliver, Miracles, Merfolk
- losses: 4c Loam (really bad match up), Ur Deliver (could have won, Blood Moon slowed me down enough so he could burn me out)
- Flip Jace is a strong card, he ate removal all day long so Mentor could swing the game; when he flipped he was great defense vs delver or just a strong card advantage engine; he doesn't replace SCM though. I'll test a 2/2 or 2/3 split I think. 2 Jace is the right number if you play any.
- Counterbalance was ok-ish, but I think Meddling mage, Canonist and Containment Priest are better in these slots because they double as a clock and you want ways to close the game, not prolong it. Against Miracles it was obviously nice, but the match up is good anyway with discard, counter plus tokens.
- I recommend at least 1 Jitte in your 75
- Lingering Souls was really good as a 3 of, synergy with Liliana and I was always happy to draw it.

I really like the core of the deck, it requires further testing though. The list I would play next tournament :

3 Mentor
2 Flip Jace
2 SCM
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 SDT
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana
4 Force
2 Counterspell
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 DTT
4 Swords to Plowshares
20 Lands (4 basics, 9 fetch, 7 duals)

Sb:
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 EE
1 Jitte
1 zealous persecution
XxxX

[HSCK]

Problems I found with esper mentor are the miracles matchup and dig through time decks with pyro/reb. Your dig will get reb'd/pyroblasted and theirs likely resolve because therapies arent just good enough against blue decks with top/brainstorm/ponder. Esper mentor with counterbalance lock sounds saucy and something I would like to test.

It's funny, the 9th place deck reminded me a lot of what you ran:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90591

[chinEsE girl]

That was me in 9th this weekend. Definitely should have top 8d, but after starting 6-0 I punted game 3 in round 7, then drew very poorly in round 8. I hadn't seen this thread before, but it's cool to see others coming to a lot of the same conclusions as myself. I'll be posting a quick little report sometime later.

[TheFlyinGutchman]

@chinEsE girl I think we sat next to each other in round 3 at that 72 person FNM a few weeks ago while you were playing my cuz Kyle. Anyways, on topic how have Tasigur and new Jace treated you? This is a deck I'm pumped about.

[Gunz24]

That was me in 9th this weekend. Definitely should have top 8d, but after starting 6-0 I punted game 3 in round 7, then drew very poorly in round 8. I hadn't seen this thread before, but it's cool to see others coming to a lot of the same conclusions as myself. I'll be posting a quick little report sometime later.

Dude that's awesome! I actually write a articles for my local store's blog and just did a brief one on your deck here: http://titangamesandhobbies.com/looking-back-on-eternal-weekend/

I'm all about this deck right now and just went 4-1 last night on MTGO, 2-1 in the daily. I lost to Miracles by 1 point of damage in game 3 due to my own play errors.

Here's my current list:

2 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Dig Through Time
2 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
1 Karakas

Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bitterblossom
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Council's Judgement

This deck has been an absolute blast to play.

[TheArchitect]

This deck is awesome and a blast to play! I won the SCG Worcester 5k yesterday with it. List is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91345

I'll post a more lengthy report/analysis and updated the OP later but here where my matchups:

169 People, 8 Rounds:
2-1 Omnitell
2-0 Merfolk
2-0 Burn
2-0 Infect
2-0 12 post (Jeremiah Rudolph)
1-1-1 Grixis Control (Richard Shay)
0-2 Miracles (Christopher Stitson)
2-0 Elves
I was 4th Seed going into top 8:
2-1 12 Post (rematch)
2-0 Miracles (rematch)
Jeremiah did not want to split in the top 8 but the top 4 split and then played out for points and glory. It was late and my last round opponent (Omnitell) conceded before the round started so we could go home. However, the omnitell matchup is great and I was a higher seed in the swiss so odds are I would have won.

[HSCK]

This deck is awesome and a blast to play! I won the SCG Worcester 5k yesterday with it. List is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91345

I'll post a more lengthy report/analysis and updated the OP later but here where my matchups:

169 People, 8 Rounds:
2-1 Omnitell
2-0 Merfolk
2-0 Burn
2-0 Infect
2-0 12 post (Jeremiah Rudolph)
1-1-1 Grixis Control (Richard Shay)
0-2 Miracles (Christopher Stitson)
2-0 Elves
I was 4th Seed going into top 8:
2-1 12 Post (rematch)
2-0 Miracles (rematch)
Jeremiah did not want to split in the top 8 but the top 4 split and then played out for points and glory. It was late and my last round opponent (Omnitell) conceded before the round started so we could go home. However, the omnitell matchup is great and I was a higher seed in the swiss so odds are I would have won.

Congrats on the finish. Your list and Rich Shay's lists were the two that I liked the most in the event and I've worked on both for the past few months.

[dsck]

This deck is awesome and a blast to play! I won the SCG Worcester 5k yesterday with it. List is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91345



Grats! Really interested in your thoughts about the miracles matchup.

[TheArchitect]

I also liked Rich's List a lot and the matches against him were some of the most enjoyable games of magic I have played in a while. They were super close/interactive, and Rich was a nice guy.

The miracles matchup is tough, pre-board they are VERY favored, post board its probably even. As someone who has played miracles for like 2 years, esper (especially this deck) is very awkward to sideboard against because of its different angels of attack. The miracles matchup was a major reason for the inclusion of spell pierce and it seemed to help. However, I think I have been sideboarding incorrectly vs traditional miracles without the MD mentors; leaving in too many STP and not bringing in meddling mages. I also am considering devoting another SB (or maybe MD) slot to a Miracles haymaker like bitterblossom, Phyrexian Arena, Cavern of Souls, 2nd rod/stony silence or a needle.

I tried Esper charm as a MD 1 of for a while, and it was actually quiet good. It can instant speed discard miracles, kill CB. Its good vs omnitell and random stuff like choke or library, and worse case scenario it draws 2 or pitches to FoW. This deck really wants a Kolagan's Command, but esper charm does only a mediocre impression of it.

I also tried Gut shot which was nuts vs delver, pyromancer and anything with green or white creatures. It also helped enable turn 4/5 kills with mentor by letting you untap with more monks play or just flashback a therapy on turn 3. Although rarely useless, it is generally bad vs burn, miracles, and combo.

[anwei]

I'd be especially interested to hear thoughts on Deathrite. I'm just picking this up, after kicking around Grixis lists with the same dilemma. They can seem like 2 totally different decks..

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I am most excited to hear about the merfolk and mud matchups. Any strategies you found to be considerably strong and what version of mud it was would be most appreciated.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Waikiki]

I wonder how you consider the omnitell matchup great and the miracle matchup bad while we almost have indentical lists. My experience in GP Lille showed me miracle is a pretty doable matchup while omnitell is way harder.

Are we doing something way different in playstyle? Do note I'm playing 2 lingering souls that are really great against the traditional miracle decks.

[TheArchitect]

I wonder how you consider the omnitell matchup great and the miracle matchup bad while we almost have indentical lists. My experience in GP Lille showed me miracle is a pretty doable matchup while omnitell is way harder.

Are we doing something way different in playstyle? Do note I'm playing 2 lingering souls that are really great against the traditional miracle decks.

In your list you have more twice as many planewalkers, needle, lingering souls and a 4th dig. These are all things that are are great in the miracle matchup and I dont have them. With my list the miracle matchup is close, and it is these kind of small changes that I think could turn it into a positive matchup. So your positive experience against miracles makes a lot of sense. Also, for much of my testing I think I was boarding wrong vs miracles: leaving in too many swords to plowshares. Even against the mentor version, STP isn't good and should be taken out.

Omnitell, I have another meddling mage, pierces in my maindeck, less dead cards like sorin or lingering souls, and hydroblast helps as well. So not really a HUGE difference. My results against omnitell may be due to playstyle or just inaccurate because of my relatively small sample size of 3-4 cockatrice matches (all of which I won) with this exact list.

Also, this is how I sideboard against omnitell with my list:

Out: -4 Swords, -2 Strix, -1 Deluge, -2 Mentor, -1 swamp/Jace (draw/play)
In: +3 Meddling mage, +1 Disenchant, +1 Council’s Judgment, +1 Hydroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Surgical Extraction

[princeofperasia]

This deck is awesome and a blast to play! I won the SCG Worcester 5k yesterday with it. List is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91345

I'll post a more lengthy report/analysis and updated the OP later but here where my matchups:

169 People, 8 Rounds:
2-1 Omnitell
2-0 Merfolk
2-0 Burn
2-0 Infect
2-0 12 post (Jeremiah Rudolph)
1-1-1 Grixis Control (Richard Shay)
0-2 Miracles (Christopher Stitson)
2-0 Elves
I was 4th Seed going into top 8:
2-1 12 Post (rematch)
2-0 Miracles (rematch)
Jeremiah did not want to split in the top 8 but the top 4 split and then played out for points and glory. It was late and my last round opponent (Omnitell) conceded before the round started so we could go home. However, the omnitell matchup is great and I was a higher seed in the swiss so odds are I would have won.

Grats! I played your list online and went 3-0 with a couple changes:

-1 Fow // +1 USea
-1 Deluge // +1 Zealous Persecution

How did you board for the burn match?

[TheArchitect]

Grats! I played your list online and went 3-0 with a couple changes:

-1 Fow // +1 USea
-1 Deluge // +1 Zealous Persecution

How did you board for the burn match?

Glad to hear it worked well for you! Against burn I boarded like this:

Out: -1 Jace, -4 Probe, -1 Deluge
In: +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Timely reinforcements, +1 Disenchant, +1 Council's Judgment

I posted a tournament report here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29915-SCG-Worcester-5k-Legacy-IQ-Winning-with-Esper-Mentor&p=904197#post904197

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Are there any specific reasons why you would rather play Strix over SFM package? I'm having a hard time closing out games when I don't see a Mentor soon enough. Strix is a tempo boost, but when omni/grixis get a quick YP down, it's basically useless. I know removal/disruption, but they have this also in grixis. It's less of a concern against omni, but still a concern nonetheless. I like the MD Deluge, it's very strong for a ton of matchups. I think it may be better to have 2 of it rather than 2x ZP.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[TheArchitect]

Are there any specific reasons why you would rather play Strix over SFM package? I'm having a hard time closing out games when I don't see a Mentor soon enough. Strix is a tempo boost, but when omni/grixis get a quick YP down, it's basically useless. I know removal/disruption, but they have this also in grixis. It's less of a concern against omni, but still a concern nonetheless. I like the MD Deluge, it's very strong for a ton of matchups. I think it may be better to have 2 of it rather than 2x ZP.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Strix is a zero maintenance card. You dont care if it immediate eats removal, if it gets discarded, or countered. Its never totally useless. In game 1 against combo it allows for a turn 2 flashback therapy while still giving you a free card or pitches to FoW. Its better than stoneforge in combo matchups. Stoneforge requires a lot of maintenance, even more than mentor. I did try 2 stoneforge and 1 batterskull for a while and it wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. It made me want to take out null rod and add a jitte in the SB as well, which I did not like, but also felt weird not doing. Another option that I tried and it worked great was 1 Angler or Tasigur.

Deluge is more versatile than ZP (which is why its in the main deck), but ZP is way better in a lot of matchups. The fact that its an instant and only cost 2 are a big deal against elves, mom decks, and pyromancer. Maybe in the future I will try 2 deluge though. Hitting delvers, and DRS in particular is really nice.

[Minniehajj]

Very intrigued by this, thanks for the report as well! Mentor has replaced geist as my all time favorite creature and while I've been playing miracles for the past 3 years, this build tickled my fancy more than even miracles does. Have you considered testing with baby Jace at all Or some number of caverns? Just curious as to what you may have found before I test them myself. And I will more than likely be playtesting and tuning this deck to the best of my ability as well, it seems like an excellent mentor shell.

[iostream]

Sorry if this is a rude question, what exactly is the advantage of this style of deck (either Mentor or the Grixis Control shell a la Rich Shay) as opposed to just the usual Grixis Delver builds that have won a bunch of tournaments lately? I really like the look of this deck, but I'm just curious what the strengths and weaknesses of the deck are, what metagames it's better suited to, etc. Specifically, it seems like Grixis Delver, Miracles, and OmniTell are the decks any Legacy player should really be gunning for, and it's unclear to me that this has any advantage over the tried-and-true Delver decks. From what I understand in this thread, the OmniTell matchup gets better, the Miracles matchup gets worse, and it doesn't look like the edge in the Delver matchup is particularly large...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Delver loses a lot of power mid/late game. Our token generator is much better than Grixis, as are our tokens. Grixis' removal is, in my opinion, strictly worse as well, but I dislike Bolt, and my meta is less blue than the national average, so REB is a less than optimal choice for me. I have also always felt that YP is a pretty bad topdeck, whereas Mentor can build up momentum in a fashion that Pyro has no capability of rivaling. I've been playing Delver in the capacity of BUG for quite some time and the mid/late-game strength of this deck, and the fact that it's not the same kind of tempo deck anyway, is what draws me to it. I'm still waiting for a decent stifle build of mentor, though.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Fox]

I wonder how you consider the omnitell matchup great and the miracle matchup bad while we almost have indentical lists. My experience in GP Lille showed me miracle is a pretty doable matchup while omnitell is way harder.

Are we doing something way different in playstyle? Do note I'm playing 2 lingering souls that are really great against the traditional miracle decks.
Miracles isn't going to insta-kill you, whereas omnitell might on turn 2 - however, omnitell can't really win through turn one [or zero] gitaxian -> sea -> cabal. As overpowered as that opening is, it doesn't beat miracles on the spot and you've got a pretty slow clock; giving miracles time to find Swords or Terminus. You're not likely to win the counter war vs miracles when they have 8x 1 mana removal spells, and this is where lingering souls can help.

That said, the magic number vs miracles is 2 damage per turn, and lingering souls could just as easily be a less hate-able card type. The most ideal card types would be non-creatures and non-blue so in descending order: planeswalkers and artifacts/echantments [no viable lands that deal damage without becoming creatures]. Anyways the whole point of this tangent is that while lingering souls may help you vs miracles, doubling down on more 1/1 tokens that are also white is very susceptible to Dread of Night effects.

I am curious though vs miracles, given how stacked their responses are vs mentor [4 force, 4 swords, 4 terminus], you just throw mentors out as early as possible regardless of having no backup right?

[TheArchitect]

Sorry if this is a rude question, what exactly is the advantage of this style of deck (either Mentor or the Grixis Control shell a la Rich Shay) as opposed to just the usual Grixis Delver builds that have won a bunch of tournaments lately? I really like the look of this deck, but I'm just curious what the strengths and weaknesses of the deck are, what metagames it's better suited to, etc. Specifically, it seems like Grixis Delver, Miracles, and OmniTell are the decks any Legacy player should really be gunning for, and it's unclear to me that this has any advantage over the tried-and-true Delver decks. From what I understand in this thread, the OmniTell matchup gets better, the Miracles matchup gets worse, and it doesn't look like the edge in the Delver matchup is particularly large...

Its not a rude question. Whenever someone has a new idea in legacy, the question should always be "how is this any better than what already works?". Often times people are just trying new things for the sake of being different/unique, and its NOT better than what already works. I don't think this is the case here though.

It's hard to compare this deck to Grixis delver, but like you said the miracles matchup gets worse, the omnitell matchup is as good or better. Sure Grixis delver, omnitell and miracles are the top decks, but combined they still only make up about 15-20% of the meta, looking at only those matchups is not very helpful. As a midrange/control deck this deck is naturally better against a lot of the stuff that generally do well against delver decks like maverick, death and taxes, elves or lands.

This is from a PM I sent to someone earlier, that my be helpful as well.

...The archtype is still developing, and there a lot of possible variants that change the matchups. Like some lists have deathrites, stoneforge, more/less planeswalkers, etc. I think what I played is closest to the best version of the deck, but I could very well be wrong.

For my list, these are roughly the matchups, based mostly on small amounts of testing 2-4 matches but also some theory crafting.

Favored: Team Ameriaca, Elves, Infect
Slightly Favored: Omnitell, Storm, Lands
Even: RUG, BURG or Grixis delver, Grixis control, Reanimator
Slight Unfavored: Miracles, MUD
Unfavored: Jund, Merfolk, Burn, 4c Loam

Stoneblade, D&T, Maverick can vary between slightly favored, to slightly unfavored depending on their exact set up.


It generally plays most simialar to grixis control, but can kill big or shrouded creatures easier, meddling mages, and a more explosive threat (mentor), while grixis gets burn, a lower curve, blasts and blood moon.

Is this deck better positioned than miracles, omnitell, grixis delver or control? I'm not entirely sure, its very hard to objectively determine which deck is best. I think this deck is certainly good. In an abstract sense, I think it is about within +/-5% of Grixis Control's power in the meta. Grixis control is well established as one of the top decks in the format right now and this might be a bit better, it might be a bit worse, but it is very close.



Have you considered testing with baby Jace at all Or some number of caverns
I tried cavern. It was pretty good. You have to count it as a spell though, and not cut a different land for it, because it doesn't really cast any of ours spells, with almost everything being 1cmc or UB or UU. Its high on my list of things I might play again in the near future.

I have not played with baby Jace (I had to read him with Rich cast him against me at Worcester). He does seem like he would be good in this deck though. I will have to try him out.



I am curious though vs miracles, given how stacked their responses are vs mentor [4 force, 4 swords, 4 terminus], you just throw mentors out as early as possible regardless of having no backup right?
No, absolutely not. You have to be the aggressor, but you can't afford to tap out early, or jam mentors without protection. Letting them resolve an early-midgame CB is really bad, even with mentor in play. I would not cast mentor until any swords in their hand are therapied away, I have multiple mentors, lots of spells to chain in responce to swords, or better things to do like resolve dig or jace. Force on mentor is not the end of the world, but I would not jam a mentor into a possible counterspell or terminus. Postboard, they should have cut some or all of their swords so you have to worry more about their permission than removal. The miracles matchup is about counterbalance, dig, therapy, and SB Haymakers. Mentor is a means to an end after the fight over the important spells is done.

[jrsthethird]

Miracles isn't going to insta-kill you, whereas omnitell might on turn 2 - however, omnitell can't really win through turn one [or zero] gitaxian -> sea -> cabal. As overpowered as that opening is, it doesn't beat miracles on the spot and you've got a pretty slow clock; giving miracles time to find Swords or Terminus. You're not likely to win the counter war vs miracles when they have 8x 1 mana removal spells, and this is where lingering souls can help.

That said, the magic number vs miracles is 2 damage per turn, and lingering souls could just as easily be a less hate-able card type. The most ideal card types would be non-creatures and non-blue so in descending order: planeswalkers and artifacts/echantments [no viable lands that deal damage without becoming creatures]. Anyways the whole point of this tangent is that while lingering souls may help you vs miracles, doubling down on more 1/1 tokens that are also white is very susceptible to Dread of Night effects.

I am curious though vs miracles, given how stacked their responses are vs mentor [4 force, 4 swords, 4 terminus], you just throw mentors out as early as possible regardless of having no backup right?

You guys are considering recurring tokens with Lingering Souls, which is really good, but I think Bitterblossom needs a home. If you can get it turn 2 vs. Miracles, you're pretty well set up for a long game. They pretty much need to find a Terminus every 4 turns or so, and whenever they STP a guy, it helps buff the life loss you take every turn.

Non-blue, enchantment, ~2 damage per turn (average; if they can't find a Terminus fast enough it gets out of control), non-white for Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental.

[TheArchitect]

You guys are considering recurring tokens with Lingering Souls, which is really good, but I think Bitterblossom needs a home. If you can get it turn 2 vs. Miracles, you're pretty well set up for a long game. They pretty much need to find a Terminus every 4 turns or so, and whenever they STP a guy, it helps buff the life loss you take every turn.

Non-blue, enchantment, ~2 damage per turn (average; if they can't find a Terminus fast enough it gets out of control), non-white for Dread of Night/Sulfur Elemental.

Bitterblossom is currently the top card on my of "things I want to try in this deck". It will probably just be a 1 of, but I am not sure if its a maindeck card, or a sideboard card. As a miracles player, bitterblossom is one of is one of my least favorite cards to see.

[Minniehajj]

Playing your list online this week with the following changes:
-2 SCM, +2 Baby Jace and -1 Elspeth in the SB for +1 Bitterblossom (don't like Elspeth much)
Baby Jace has been absolutely incredible for me in testing, but makes the pierces and likely the second counterspell a bit worse as well

[TheKingslayer]

This deck has been tearing my booty hole up online.

[jrsthethird]

Bitterblossom is currently the top card on my of "things I want to try in this deck". It will probably just be a 1 of, but I am not sure if its a maindeck card, or a sideboard card. As a miracles player, bitterblossom is one of is one of my least favorite cards to see.

Such a great card that's so underappreciated right now. I don't think I've seen a single copy since I started playing the game again a few months ago.

[Poron]

with Batterskull it's like the best card around.

They survive Pyroclasm, Terminus, StP and everything nut enchantment hate.. Batterskull can even be bounced.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, it's not a build like anything else in this thread and perhaps it doesn't belong here, but I'm going to post it here. If I need to, I'll start a new thread, but for now I need criticisms and suggestions. I plan on playing this tomorrow at a win-a-box tournament.

4 DRS
2 SFM
3 Mentor

2 L. Souls
1 Bitterblossom
1 BSkull
1 Jitte
3 StP
1 Reality Shift
1 ADecay
1 Toxic Deluge

1 JtMS
3 DTT
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Probe
2 Spell Pierce
3 Therapy
3 FoW

1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Trop
1 Scrubland
2 USea
2 Tundra
2 Marsh Flats
4 Delta
4 Strand

I'm going to post my sideboard, but it isn't what I would play in an open meta. It's for my local meta.

1 FoW
1 Therapy
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 ZP
2 Vendilion Clique
1 EE
1 ADecay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[princeofperasia]

Playing your list online this week with the following changes:
-2 SCM, +2 Baby Jace and -1 Elspeth in the SB for +1 Bitterblossom (don't like Elspeth much)
Baby Jace has been absolutely incredible for me in testing, but makes the pierces and likely the second counterspell a bit worse as well

Are you also playing JtMS md? Baby Jace seems good everywhere except Miracles and DnT, and I think you need the interaction of Snapcaster Mage to play well against Miracles.

[Minniehajj]

Are you also playing JtMS md? Baby Jace seems good everywhere except Miracles and DnT, and I think you need the interaction of Snapcaster Mage to play well against Miracles.

I am indeed playing the maindexk Jace, and I agree with that assessment, so it's possible I will need an additional sideboard slot devoted to miracles, but as I'm the only miracles player at my locals, that's the skew I wanted to test. So far Baby Jace has been incredible

[iostream]

Baby Jace has been absolutely incredible for me in testing, but makes the pierces and likely the second counterspell a bit worse as wellProbably want to turn some of those pierces/counterspells into Dazes if you're going to play Baby Jace. It's just as bad as a flashback target, but at least it synergizes with the looting ability.

This deck seems like it gets to 3-4 mana pretty reliably, though. Not sure why you wouldn't just play SCM. I think of Baby Jace as an option for decks that can't reliably snap back spells (i.e. Delver).

[Minniehajj]

Probably want to turn some of those pierces/counterspells into Dazes if you're going to play Baby Jace. It's just as bad as a flashback target, but at least it synergizes with the looting ability.

This deck seems like it gets to 3-4 mana pretty reliably, though. Not sure why you wouldn't just play SCM. I think of Baby Jace as an option for decks that can't reliably snap back spells (i.e. Delver).

Baby Jace helps fuel dig, and doesn't clash with other graveyard synergy and while it gets to 3-4 mana just fine, I wanted to test out other shells with Jace instead of scm and this seems just fine compared to having scm. I'm testing 2 thought seize and 2 Jace instead of 2 scm and 2 spell pierce, for the reasons you mentioned, and my win percentage went way up. Undefeated with that configuration over 3 days of non stop testing online. While our life total gets quite low, it's not that bad when we are grinding our opponent to dust

[TheArchitect]

It looks like another list, very similar to mine, did well this weekend at the IQ: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91764

I don't care for the changes to the SB he made, but the changes to the landbase are things I have tried in the past and did work well. Its possible that the basic swamp has no place in the deck, but cavern does.

Also, in like 10ish games testing with Baby Jace, I am very unimpressed. I'll keep trying him, but so far I would stick with snapcaster.

[Minniehajj]

It looks like another list, very similar to mine, did well this weekend at the IQ: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91764

I don't care for the changes to the SB he made, but the changes to the landbase are things I have tried in the past and did work well. Its possible that the basic swamp has no place in the deck, but cavern does.

Also, in like 10ish games testing with Baby Jace, I am very unimpressed. I'll keep trying him, but so far I would stick with snapcaster.
What did you dislike about it? I agree in further testing that it's not as good and scm is always going to be strong. Not sure about mana base changes. Also, any word on Bitterblossom

[Secretly.A.Bee]

In the list I posted above, Bitterblossom has been strong. It builds momentum early. My best line was:

Turn 1: fetch land, DRS.
Turn 2: fetch land, Souls.
Turn 3: fetch land, Bitterblossom, flashback Souls.

Quite insane.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[jedi_gof]

I played the list from last scg iq at my LGS. Few changes to the SBm including a Bitterblossom over elspeth, and a 61st card main in tasigur (had him as a placeholder for a card i needed borrowing, forgot to remove him when i got the card.)

I played against Prisonstompy soldiers r1 (2-1) a homebrew that actually was quite bad. Only won on the back of zealous Ps that wrecked him g2 and 3.

R2 was against a D&T player, not much resistance was put up and won quite handely 2-0. Even though you do tend to go lower than what is desired in life total, its not too imposible to stabilize and win.

R3 I beat a Miracles player, it seemed like i drew much better than him both games, another 2-0. I wrecked him so hard it wasnt even funny. (well it was but still:D)

R4 was against Stürm. He managed to draw like a boss and win game 1, but game 2+3 he was hated out. 2-1 and 4-0 for the night.

R5 I beat Omnitell. He wins g1, but g2+3 feels really ok. He gets gready game 3 and decides not to massacre prior to s&t because he knows about my mm in hand. He did not know that i had a canonist in hand, and that + my board was plenty enough to take him out on my turn. 5-0 for the night.

R6 i lost 2 exacties and topdecket 1outers game 2+3. Oh well, cant win em all, so 5-1 and a first place after swiss, we dont play top 4/8 on weekdays due to time restrictions.


Thoughts:
BBlossom: Really shined
Baby Jace: Def needs to try him out, he seems like a solid fit
4 basics is needed, often played dual-less which was awesome

Deck is deffo for real, a tier1/DTB contender soon for sure.

[dsck]

R6 i lost 2 exacties and topdecket 1outers game 2+3. Oh well, cant win em all, so 5-1 and a first place after swiss, we dont play top 4/8 on weekdays due to time restrictions.




What did you play against? :tongue:

[jedi_gof]

RUG Delver:-)

[Tantarus]

I ran a list very close Evan Flynn's decklist that won the Scg IQ a few weeks back. It felt very strong. I went 3-1 and the loss was close.

I was wondering what people think about adding 1 Cavern of Souls to the deck, Naming human will cover Snaps and Mentors. Allowing you to resolve them and then save counters for the counter war over removal and then making tokens in the process. That said the Cavern is narrow as it only helps cast 6 cards. It is nearly a colorless land for the rest of the deck. So I worry about using it for that reason. Has anyone tried it and what did they think?

Also How do people feel about baleful strix? I have mixed feelings about it myself. Is nice that it is blue for fow, it cantrips, makes for good flash backs with cabal therapy. In addition to being a good delver and goyf blocker.

[Minniehajj]

I ran a list very close Evan Flynn's decklist that won the Scg IQ a few weeks back. It felt very strong. I went 3-1 and the loss was close.

I was wondering what people think about adding 1 Cavern of Souls to the deck, Naming human will cover Snaps and Mentors. Allowing you to resolve them and then save counters for the counter war over removal and then making tokens in the process. That said the Cavern is narrow as it only helps cast 6 cards. It is nearly a colorless land for the rest of the deck. So I worry about using it for that reason. Has anyone tried it and what did they think?

Also How do people feel about baleful strix? I have mixed feelings about it myself. Is nice that it is blue for fow, it cantrips, makes for good flash backs with cabal therapy. In addition to being a good delver and goyf blocker.

Cavern felt weird. You can't really replace a land with it due to being a very colored mana intensive deck, but it's a strong effect. Having discard clear the way for mentor and snap is more viable IMO. As for strix, it's always done its job very well for me you described it's merits quite well

[Berserking Now]

Cavern of Souls feels like one of the weaker cards in my decklist but I have not had it create many issues with casting my spells. It has been great a couple of times but most of the time it is just a colorless land and just feels average compared to the other powerful cards in the deck. However, it has not been weak enough or disappointing/frustrating enough to warrant replacing it in my list.

[Tantarus]

However, it has not been weak enough or disappointing/frustrating enough to warrant replacing it in my list.

Do you run it as one of the 19 land, or in a spells spot?

[Berserking Now]

It is one of the 19 lands. My current land configuration is:

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

[princeofperasia]

I played TheArchitect's list today + cavern/kid jace at an SCG IQ for a top 4 split (list is below) against:

BUG Standstill (0-2) - Hard match-up as I lost the attrition game to his many board sweepers
Nicfit (2-0) - Lopsided in my favor as I played DTT and he didn't
Elves (1-1-1) - Had lethal on board and could only get opp down to 1 life on turn 5. I asked politely if he'd concede, but he declined. Opp said it was his second time playing legacy, which explains his slow play + numerous questions.
Miracles (2-1) - Cavern locked up G2. G3, I probed his opening hand and saw 2 blood moons, so I countered all his brainstorms and he had no answer to Elspeth/Needle.
MUD (2-0) - Opponent kept below average hands in my opinion.
Top 8: Elves, piloted by Jonathan Morawski (2-1) - G1, I kept a 6 card hand on the draw with a plains as my only land (I didn't know what he was on). Probe didn't find a land on my turn and by the time I got my 2nd land on turn 3, I was too far behind. G2, Toxic Deluge + JtMS made room for my monk tokens to swing lethal. G3, he goes down to 6 cards and a Therapy takes two Glimpses. Perish + Kid Jace sealed it.
Top 4 split


Card choices

Sideboard: Going into an unknown meta I made a judgement call to forgo the Hydroblast and Timely Reinforcements for some extra hate against Miracles and Goyfs. The changes ended up paying off since I didn't play against anything red.

Cavern of Souls: This was pretty good against Miracles, but mediocre everywhere else (to be fair, I only played against one real counter magic deck). As far as the swamp it replaced, I was never in a situation where I wish I had the the basic swamp. But, I was limited a couple times with the Cavern's colorless mana. It wasn't back-breaking, but it did slow my tempo down when I couldn't play two or three spells a turn. I think I'll keep playing it to get some more testing in, but I think it might be better in the sideboard (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17543&iddeck=132042).

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy: Amazing! I flipped him multiple times and even ulted against Nic Fit after my opponent cast Extirpate on my Mentors. I was usually able to get at least two flashbacks with him, which would put me way ahead of my opponent. Obviously, Snapcaster Mage is no slouch, but I'd test out this out if you're not playing against many Karakas decks.

Perish: After losing against RUG delver twice recently, I made a last minute change to put Perish in instead of a Hydroblast. I can see why Soorani plays a pair of them -- it's usually game over when it resolves. DRS/Goyf/Mongoose/Elves fold pretty hard to this.

List
19 Land:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor


3 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Null Rod
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Meddling Mage

[TheArchitect]

Congrats on your success! Perish is a very powerful card, but not one that I think is necessary in a deck like this. Goyf is the least scary good 2-drop that people play. But I do think that more miracles hate is warranted. I still have not really liked little Jace too much. Hes rarely bad, but usually seems less useful than snapcaster.

[Minniehajj]

So is this deck likely unplayable now that dig is banned?

[Tantarus]

Ehh, I think it takes the ban better then alot of other decks, such as omnitell. Just have to replace Digs with threats likely.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Ehh, I think it takes the ban better then alot of other decks, such as omnitell. Just have to replace Digs with threats likely.

Haven't really played this deck, but it still might be viable even without Dig since it takes less of hit than other Dig decks. I think for replacing Dig you might want to look at outlets of card advantage as well, like adding another Jace, TMS or a third Snapcaster. Mentor still seems like a solid threat in a world without Dig unlike Young Pyromancer...

[Berserking Now]

I personally never liked dig as a card in the deck since it made the deck have too much card draw for my taste so I ran Gurmag Angler instead of them. Gurmag Angler was great for me since it was as threatening as Monastery Mentor in some matchups and gets around hate for Monastery Mentor.

[TheArchitect]

So is this deck likely unplayable now that dig is banned?

Absolutely not. The ban might even be a net positive for this deck.

- Mentor is the premier control-deck creature of choice, an upgrade of stoneforge, TNN or lingering souls used in past esper shells. Esper was a fine deck pre-Khans, but got pushed out of the meta by shardless bug. This deck crushes shardless bug, with or without dig.

- Discard is much better now.

- In the miracles and grixis matchups, they were way better dig decks because they also had pyroblast. This is no longer an issue.

I have not really tested the deck without dig, but have done some theory crafting. I am not sure about exact numbers, but the contenders to take its place are some combination of, 1 snapcaster, 1-3 little jace, 1 JtMS, 1 Sorin/elspeth, 20th land, 1-2 Taisigur/Angler.

The sideboard will probably change a fair amount as well as the meta shifts.

[Tantarus]

I think I will probably try replacing Digs with 1x JTMS, 1x Angler, and Cavern of Souls. Maybe a 3rd Snap over Angler. Will see.

[Minniehajj]

Anyone have any lists or things they want to share with the first weekend post-ban?

[Waikiki]

IMO the deck really needs the digs to keep up with the other decks. All these cantrips are just worse if you can't exile them for CA. I think just getting little monks and some CQ isnt enough.

[Serch]

Anyone have any lists or things they want to share with the first weekend post-ban?

I'm testing this one, that makes Top 1 in my region. Give it a try!

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix

Sideboard:

1 Null Rod
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zerlous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Council’s Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements

[Topazwarrior]

Here is the list I'm going to be testing. In the pre-ban version, I found I was tapping out a lot so I wanted to try out daze. Also, I wanted some additional threats and figured that deathrite could function as a threat and help play a turn 2 mentor. Interested to hear what you guys think!

4 deathrite shaman
2 baleful strix
2 snapcaster Mage
4 monastery mentor
4 swords to plowshares
4 gitaxian probe
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
4 daze
4 force of will
1 dismember
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 underground sea
3 tundra
1 scrubland
1 tropical island
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
1 marsh flats

Sideboard

1 null rod
1 disenchant
1 hydroblast
2 submerge
1 misdirection
2 surgical extraction
1 bitterblossom
1 perish
2 zealous persecution
2 meddling mage
1 notion thief

[TheFlyinGutchman]

4 daze
1 Jace, the mind sculptor

Has the combination of daze and Jace ever given you issues? I feel like with wasteland, stifle, rishadan port making a resurgence, setting yourself back land drops may make getting to 4 cmc difficult.

[Topazwarrior]

That's a great point. Jace and dismember were the last 2 cards I put in, but they may be better as preordains to smooth the draws and fuel mentor once it's in play. Any suggestions on what could replace Jace?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Drop JtMS and the Snapcaster Mage for Jace the flipwalker.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Minniehajj]

I can second that Flip Jace is quite good. I'm still probably considering Lingering Souls as a good way to replace DTT since it allows us another angle of attack, or perhaps Angler. I dislike that Staticaster could be insane against us. I'm looking for a decent 75 to help tune, but there's not a lot of data to go off of after the banning.

[Berserking Now]

I can vouch for lingering souls being effective in the deck. It is decent for Cabal Therapy flashbacks. I have recently tested Sorin, Solemn Visitor and it has been insane. I have rarely lost a game when I resolved it and it has enabled me to win in some heavily unfavored situations. I have also tried Umezawa's Jitte main in a more threat dense build and found it to be contradictory since I want to board it out against a few decks that it is good against for null rod and pithing needle to deal with opposing Umezawa's Jitte. It did performs great at times yet it feels win more often. I want to more testing with it before I reach a conclusion. I sadly do not have a list that is at the point in testing where I feel comfortable sharing it.

[TheFlyinGutchman]

That's a great point. Jace and dismember were the last 2 cards I put in, but they may be better as preordains to smooth the draws and fuel mentor once it's in play. Any suggestions on what could replace Jace?

Honestly, I would consider
-1 Dismember
-1 Jace
+2 Murderous Cut.

I like the preordain idea, but I feel like this deck needs some more removal.

[Minniehajj]

I've been playing TheArchitect's list with 2 Lingering Souls and 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor in place of DTT and it's been rather lackluster to be honest. Deck feels weaker with this setup, and Lingering Souls doesn't do too much. This is in limited testing on cockatrice against Miracles, Shardless, Jund, Storm, etc.

[Minniehajj]

Just saw this:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18293&iddeck=138277

Thoughts?

[TheArchitect]

The deck definitely lost some of its power. But I still think its a better blue-midrange/control choice than stoneblade. I don't think lingering souls is good in this deck (and I was huge fan of souls in stoneblade). We are already at a choke point with 3 drops, and don't need more of them. Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy is growing on me a bit. The fact that it gives you something to do turn 2 besides cantrip is nice, otherwise its usually worse than snapcaster (which is usually uncastable till turn 3+).

Dig through time let the deck really pull ahead in the mid-late game. Being able to do that is essential for a deck like this to work. That is why I like Jace as a replacement. Both the mindscultper and prodigy are good card advantage engines. I am not sure on my exact configuration yet, but I would like to have 2 of each I think. Otherwise, the deck does not have to change too much. Shardless BUG is really the only new threat that will have to be taken into account when creating a sideboard.

[Minniehajj]

The deck definitely lost some of its power. But I still think its a better blue-midrange/control choice than stoneblade. I don't think lingering souls is good in this deck (and I was huge fan of souls in stoneblade). We are already at a choke point with 3 drops, and don't need more of them. Jace, Vyrn's Prodigy is growing on me a bit. The fact that it gives you something to do turn 2 besides cantrip is nice, otherwise its usually worse than snapcaster (which is usually uncastable till turn 3+).

Dig through time let the deck really pull ahead in the mid-late game. Being able to do that is essential for a deck like this to work. That is why I like Jace as a replacement. Both the mindscultper and prodigy are good card advantage engines. I am not sure on my exact configuration yet, but I would like to have 2 of each I think. Otherwise, the deck does not have to change too much. Shardless BUG is really the only new threat that will have to be taken into account when creating a sideboard.

Agreed. Have you thought about re-introducing Stoneforge mystic? Perhaps 2 SFM 1 Batterskull in place of the Digs? It could warrant testing again.

[TheArchitect]

I think sfm is actually probably worse now that discard and lily will probably see more play. Stoneforge is still a high maintenance threat, and not something that can really be considered a 2 drop, since it will rarely be effective turn 2. I've thought more about playing top in the deck again. I love stomping, mud, storm, d&t and of course miracles with null rod, but it's not a necessary card and the upside of top might be worth it.

[pnutbutr]

Any thought given to Unearth?

[TheArchitect]

Any thought given to Unearth?

I love unearth as a card. I would sooner just play reanimate though. But I don't think either are really worth playing. I used to like 1 in decks like one sometime in deadguy or stomeblade but since Deathrite those effects got worse and also I don't think we have quite enough creatures to make it worth playing. Maybe of we played stuff like mental note or fact or fiction but not in the current set up.

[pnutbutr]

I hear ya... That makes sense.

I've been testing this deck for a little while on MTGO but haven't figured out how to replace DTT (since the last patch, my MTGO client keeps crashing every time I open the collection screen so I c ant even edit my deck to make it legal right now lol).

Ive also thought about adding more snapcasters, a second main deck toxic deluge, or even shifting the Elspeth from the sideboard to the main deck.

I'll keep following this thread and report back if I can finally put this deck together lol.

[Minniehajj]

I hear ya... That makes sense.

I've been testing this deck for a little while on MTGO but haven't figured out how to replace DTT (since the last patch, my MTGO client keeps crashing every time I open the collection screen so I c ant even edit my deck to make it legal right now lol).

Ive also thought about adding more snapcasters, a second main deck toxic deluge, or even shifting the Elspeth from the sideboard to the main deck.

I'll keep following this thread and report back if I can finally put this deck together lol.

That's what we're all trying to figure out =P

The deck has actually lost so much of it's power that I'm actually considering just putting it on the backburner for now, unless it somehow gets results in a dig-less metagame

The closest we have is this list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18293&iddeck=138277

But I'm not convinced that it has what it takes to deal with the new T1 metagame.

[princeofperasia]

That's what we're all trying to figure out =P

The deck has actually lost so much of it's power that I'm actually considering just putting it on the backburner for now, unless it somehow gets results in a dig-less metagame

The closest we have is this list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18293&iddeck=138277

But I'm not convinced that it has what it takes to deal with the new T1 metagame.

Have you tested the list without digs or are you guessing? I actually thought the same thing, but seeing Romero put up results with basically the same list (jaces instead of digs) makes me think there's still something here. Is anyone brewing with this list still?

[Minniehajj]

Have you tested the list without digs or are you guessing? I actually thought the same thing, but seeing Romero put up results with basically the same list (jaces instead of digs) makes me think there's still something here. Is anyone brewing with this list still?

I'm speculating more than anything else, to be quite honest. I've swapped back to Miracles for the time being, as it just feels far more powerful against something like Shardless.

[Rook1e]

I ran this list at a local GPT yesterday

Land (20)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Creature (8)
2x Baleful Strix
3x Monastery Mentor
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
1x Divert
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Lingering Souls
3x Ponder
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Bitterblossom
1x Council's Judgment
1x Disenchant
2x Flusterstorm
3x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution

R1: Miracles 0-2
R2: Shardless BUG 2-1
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: Miracles 2-1
R5: D&T 1-2

Liked the list a lot. Still considering giving Top another run due to it being completely bonkers with mentor. Bitterblossom was incredibly strong against Miracles, and If Miracles continue to be as popular I could even see myself trying 1 main. However, the D&T MU seems tough, I think I'll try to fit in either antother Zealous or Deluge or maybe even a Massacre

[Minniehajj]

I ran this list at a local GPT yesterday

Land (20)
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Creature (8)
2x Baleful Strix
3x Monastery Mentor
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
1x Divert
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Lingering Souls
3x Ponder
1x Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1x Bitterblossom
1x Council's Judgment
1x Disenchant
2x Flusterstorm
3x Meddling Mage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution

R1: Miracles 0-2
R2: Shardless BUG 2-1
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: Miracles 2-1
R5: D&T 1-2

Liked the list a lot. Still considering giving Top another run due to it being completely bonkers with mentor. Bitterblossom was incredibly strong against Miracles, and If Miracles continue to be as popular I could even see myself trying 1 main. However, the D&T MU seems tough, I think I'll try to fit in either antother Zealous or Deluge or maybe even a Massacre

Looks interesting, how did your matches against miracles play out? And did Divert ever do anything? I've considered the card in the past but I'm not convinced.

[Rook1e]

Looks interesting, how did your matches against miracles play out? And did Divert ever do anything? I've considered the card in the past but I'm not convinced.

Very very grindy except for R1 where he just had an answer for everything I did and killed me quickly. The two other matches were dominated by Therapy and Souls. Divert was pretty dissapointing, acting as a worse Spell Pierce, but then again I only faced 1 BGx deck and it got Thoughtseized away then game I saw it. I will contine to try it for a bit, but it will be the first card to go if I make any changes.

[Minniehajj]

How about the death and taxes matchup? That's a deck that I suspect will be cropping up again shortly.

[Rook1e]

How about the death and taxes matchup? That's a deck that I suspect will be cropping up again shortly.

G1 I got completely locked out by Thalia + Wingmare combined with port/waste. G2 Mentor took over and won in 2 turns. G3 I needed to draw one of 7 outs in 3 turn but somehow missed and lost. I don't think the MU is that bad, but if you can't interact with them early you will definitely run into problems.

[TheArchitect]

The D&T matchup is usually a very positive one. Zealous Perciution, snapcaster, and deluge are very good against them. However, it is very important to not keep 4 cantrip 1 land hands against them. We can use cantrips cheat on mana vs most decks, but not D&T.

Divert is much worse in practice than it looks on paper. I would rather play a misdirection in that slot. After more testing, with the loss of dig, we have trouble keeping up with shardless now and should adjust the SB a bit to improve that. I have not tested it a ton, just a handful of games on cockatrice, but this is what I would play now:

20 Lands:
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

3 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

- With more stifles/wastes popping up and the deck having a higher curve with Dig gone, I went up to 20 lands. However, it is important to remember to cut a swamp/cavern/plains against combo or control matchups for game 2/3.

- Strix is even better now with more goyfs, less pyromancers.

- I am still iffy on the manabase. It might be right to cut a flats for a 3rd sea. I still don't like scrubland in this deck. This deck really wants all the blue it can get. Unfortunately, I think the 2 non-blue basics will remain a necessary evil.

- I though persish was awful in the Delve meta, and cringed every time I saw a deck running it, but with Thresh, Team america and Shardless coming back it might be worth running again. It would probably take the Hydoblast slot in my list.

[Minniehajj]

I'm much happier with that list, including the Perish change. Will sleeve it up sometime this week and play at locals!

[Deadinthestreet]

Ran the following last night at a 51 man tourney in Seattle.

Lands (20)
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
1 swamp
1 plains
2 island
3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 creeping tar pit

Creatures (8)
2 baleful strix
2 snapcaster Mage
3 monestary mentor
1 tasigur, the golden fang

Instances (16)
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 counterspell
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares

Sorceries (12)
3 ponder
4 cabal therapy
4 gitaxian probe
1 toxic deluge

Planeswalkers (4)
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2, liliana of the veil

Sideboard:
3 meddling Mage
2 zealous persecution
2 flusterstorm
1 disenchant
1 vendilion clique
2 surgical extraction
1 pitching needle
1 null rod
1 council's judgement
1 bitterblossom

My rounds went like:

R1: tin fins 0-2
Game one they were in the play and went off turn two and got me way too fast with griselbrand. Game two I disrupted his hand decently at the beginning and forced a crucial brainstorm, resolved a baleful strix the turn before he got griselbrand out but then had barely enough resources to also get out emrakul and win.

R2: miracles 0-2
G1 he gets counter top up extremely fast and locks me out then resolves a mind sculptor and I scoop once it's too far gone so we don't end up doing to time. G2 got kind of grind, I was able to counter his have and on the next turn resolve a Lotv on my end, got him to discard an entreat, he ends up resolving his other entreat a few turns later for four, I CJ one and have him sac another with Lili but he gets there with two angels and a snap.

R3: silence stick 2-0
Both games I dominate with tons of hand disruption and board presence.

R4: BUG delver 2-0
Can't remember details as I was pretty tired. Pretty straight forward back and forth and I ended up being able to get board presence both games, resolving a tasigur, even a creeping tar pit was swinging.

This was my first time running this deck at all at a tournament and I had a lot of fun with it. I felt like I could have won the miracles matchup if I had maybe gotten a jace or more hand disruption than I did. I never drew creeping tar pit early for it to hinder me and only used it as a creature once. I was too skeptical on running a baby jace so I held off but it would be cool to play him if I see him put up some results. Everything felt really smooth with the deck and I think it has a lot of potential.

Has anyone had any luck playing Lili, tar pit or baby jace??

[Rook1e]

Has anyone had any luck playing Lili, tar pit or baby jace??

I run 2 Lili and 1 Tar Pit in my list (see it a couple of posts above). So far they have been very solid for me and I am always happy to see them. I can't see the need for either Jace, but I haven't tried them out yet. 4CMC for JTMS seems like a lot and I am not sure Flip Jace is better than snapcaster in this shell, but I have been wanting to try him.

[btm10]

I've only played about a dozen matches so far, and I'm not running Lili since she's such a nonbo with Mentor. What I AM doing is running Stoneforge Mystic - a card I ordinarily wouldn't touch - and Ancestral Vision, both of which have been excellent. Vision lets us hang in the late game with the BGx decks like Shardless, and Mentor provides an endless stream of excellent equipment carriers, meaning that both opposing Lilianas and Abrupt Decays are heavily taxed, while the Equipment offers some robustness in the face of Hymn. The Miracles matchup still seems fine, if not as awesome as it was with Dig, and the sideboard has (so far) fixed the bad combo matchup game 1.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Ancestral Vision

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
2 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize

The sideboard is still pretty preliminary. It should probably have a Back to Basics (with the accompanying changes to the manabase) and/or a Tsabo's Web to give something extra against Lands since A - there are three Lands players in my local meta, and B - I can't imagine a world where that matchup is particularly good.

[TheArchitect]

4 Eqiupments
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
This made me cringe. Sorin 3.0 or Elspeth (or JTMS) are much better than Nahrir. In non-weenie decks, any equipment beyond Jitte and batterskull are overkill at best and completely dead cards at worst. And while I don't think stoneforge is bad in the deck, but make no mistake, nothing about mentor makes equipment better. If you get to make monk tokens, you won the game. And if you dont get make monk tokens, you better hope your SFM is still alive because otherwise the deck has no creatures.

I do actually like the idea of Ancestral Visions. It does a good job of refilling without having to make any big mana investment.

Lands is indeed a tough matchup. I don't run into it too often luckily. We are actually pretty good at interacting with crazy stuff they do, STP kills Mirat lage, Meddling mage stops Punishing Fire, Surgical gets Loam. But we are pretty soft to their mana denial and a have a REALLY tough time if we dont find Mage or Surgical.

I do not think liliana is good in this deck. BB is getting greedy, and we don't want to play in topdeck mode. I also don't think Tasigur is good. If you need a pseudo-goyf, play Angler. I have an unpopular opinion that Tasigurs Activated ability IS actually really relevant in legacy, but the power difference and being a legend make angler better still.



I got some more games in with the list I posted above, and did change the hydroblast to perish. It performed very well. My doubts I was beginning to have with the deck in the post-dig meta are mostly gone now. Also, I had forgotten how much I love Notion Thief.

If anyone curious, this is what I anticipate the matchups will look like in the post dig meta. This is with my list I just posted, and its based on a small sample and theory crafting, so it is basically just my opinion/expectations:

Unfavored: Jund, Lands, Merfolk, Burn
Slightly Unfavored: Shardless BUG, Sneak and Show, MUD
Even: Miracles, URx Delver, Reanimator, Blade Control
Slightly Favored: RUG/BUG delver
Favored: Death and Taxes, Elves, Omnitell, Storm, Infect, Maverick

[btm10]

This made me cringe. Sorin 3.0 or Elspeth (or JTMS) are much better than Nahrir. In non-weenie decks, any equipment beyond Jitte and batterskull are overkill at best and completely dead cards at worst. And while I don't think stoneforge is bad in the deck, but make no mistake, nothing about mentor makes equipment better. If you get to make monk tokens, you won the game. And if you dont get make monk tokens, you better hope your SFM is still alive because otherwise the deck has no creatures.

It's less about Mentor making equipment better than it is about equipment making residual Monk tokens less anemic. As for Visions, I played various Grixis tempo and midrange lists when Pyromancer was first printed, and the decks always needed a way to make sure they didn't run out of gas in the mid-to-late game. I could easily see the Visions becoming Fact or Fiction, Painful Truths, or Night's Whisper in a more tuned list, but the deck needs a way other than Jace to actually draw more cards.

[Minniehajj]

Fact or fiction seems right up our alley to be honest.

[presquepartout]

I've done some testing with this list, and really like it. I might pull the trigger on it at my weekly Legacy event.

//Creatures
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baleful Strix

//Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Cavern of Souls

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod

[Minniehajj]

Saw this list come in 5th at an IQ:

4 Monastery Mentor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Marsh Flats
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Dark Confidant
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rest in Peace
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Plague
2 Meddling Mage
1 Massacre

Thoughts?

[Berserking Now]

I am curious about the reasoning behind the 2 Rest in Peace in the sideboard since it is not synergetic with the Cabal Therapy and Deathrite Shaman. I also wonder if the 3 Swords to Plowshares was enough removal mainboard and if not wanting to sacrifice a Deathrite Shaman or Dark Confidant to Cabal Therapy when you need to answer a threat in their hand came up often. I do like the idea of using Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant along side countertop in that list.

[T-101]

Against some decks, it is worth nuertering your own Deathrite and half of your Therapy to completely shut down their deck.

Dredge, Storm, Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, Knight, Reanimation, all eat dirt to Rest In Peace. If they can't do a damn thing, beating them down with a 1/2 Deathrite is a fine option.

[Deadinthestreet]

Thinking about running esper mentor at at Seattle GP. Would love to see some more deck lists and get some insight. Think I'm going to run three baleful strix, mentor and jace. Seems good.

[T-101]

I ran the list that Minniehajj posted above at a local yesterday.

I've been out of Magic for a few months, and there was a lot of sloppy play on my part. Letting Jace die to Tar Pit, forgetting to Probe before Therapy on one occasion, stumbling on mana because I hadn't memorized the duals. I ended up a dismal 0/2/1.

Here's a couple thoughts I had about the deck...

1.) It feels like it needed a Scrubland. Not sure what to take out to make room. Maybe a Tundra or a non-land. I definitely feel like the 2nd Underground is required, and I don't think it should cut a fetch, basic, or green source.

2.) The CounterTop combo seemed super clunky. I like CounterTop, and I like all the other cards in the deck, but jamming CounterTop into the deck at 3 copies of each seemed very odd. I'm sure the guy who piloted it to a decent SCG finish knows more than I do, but I don't think I'd run this exact list again.

3.) Even though I piloted it like a fool, and my Therapy-fu is generally weak, I like most of the deck.

If I decide to play it again, I'll try to share more thoughts.

[TnA_Will]

Literally version 1.0! Haven't tested yet however I have tested Myth with Standstill over the past 3 starcitygames Legacy opens with great results... If Myth sticks it can get very good very quick and I've stared down goyfs making them waste abrupt decays on it.

Lands (22)
1 Creeping Tar Pit [WWK]
4 Flooded Strand [KTK]
1 Island [M15]
4 Mishra's Factory [4ED]
2 Plains [M15]
4 Polluted Delta [KTK]
3 Tundra [LEA]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]

Creatures (3)
3 Monastery Mentor [FRF]

Other Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm [MMQ]
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
2 Counterspell [7ED]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
3 Gitaxian Probe [NPH]
3 Lingering Souls [DDK]
4 Myth Realized [DTK]
2 Sensei's Divining Top [CHK]
4 Standstill [ODY]
1 Supreme Verdict [RTR]
4 Swords to Plowshares [ICE]

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
2 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
2 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

[Minniehajj]

I ran the list that Minniehajj posted above at a local yesterday.

I've been out of Magic for a few months, and there was a lot of sloppy play on my part. Letting Jace die to Tar Pit, forgetting to Probe before Therapy on one occasion, stumbling on mana because I hadn't memorized the duals. I ended up a dismal 0/2/1.

Here's a couple thoughts I had about the deck...

1.) It feels like it needed a Scrubland. Not sure what to take out to make room. Maybe a Tundra or a non-land. I definitely feel like the 2nd Underground is required, and I don't think it should cut a fetch, basic, or green source.

2.) The CounterTop combo seemed super clunky. I like CounterTop, and I like all the other cards in the deck, but jamming CounterTop into the deck at 3 copies of each seemed very odd. I'm sure the guy who piloted it to a decent SCG finish knows more than I do, but I don't think I'd run this exact list again.

3.) Even though I piloted it like a fool, and my Therapy-fu is generally weak, I like most of the deck.

If I decide to play it again, I'll try to share more thoughts.

Everyone has days like that, I wouldn't be too worried, just keep it up! As for scrubland, I think we want a saturation of blue lands so I wouldn't play a scrubland. You just need to be a bit more aware of what duals you have available. Personally, I wouldn't go below 3 U-Seas in the deck, as I don't like basics in a deck that is truly 3-color like this one is.

As for Countertop, being primarily a miracles pilot, I could see the attraction of it, (mentor plus double top and going bananas), but it requires a very different playstyle than most players are accustomed to. I would imagine that this version of the deck would play more like mentor miracles from last season played, but we have hand disruption and probe instead of daze and terminus. Countertop also shores up the lack of the third swords (as another user mentioned) since it will often trade for a creature when you establish it.

Rest in peace is likely not correct, I'd rather play some version with surgical extraction, or relic, etc.

[Minniehajj]

Literally version 1.0! Haven't tested yet however I have tested Myth with Standstill over the past 3 starcitygames Legacy opens with great results... If Myth sticks it can get very good very quick and I've stared down goyfs making them waste abrupt decays on it.

Lands (22)
1 Creeping Tar Pit [WWK]
4 Flooded Strand [KTK]
1 Island [M15]
4 Mishra's Factory [4ED]
2 Plains [M15]
4 Polluted Delta [KTK]
3 Tundra [LEA]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]

Creatures (3)
3 Monastery Mentor [FRF]

Other Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm [MMQ]
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
2 Counterspell [7ED]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
3 Gitaxian Probe [NPH]
3 Lingering Souls [DDK]
4 Myth Realized [DTK]
2 Sensei's Divining Top [CHK]
4 Standstill [ODY]
1 Supreme Verdict [RTR]
4 Swords to Plowshares [ICE]

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
2 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
2 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

Saturating decay targets like this feels fine, but I'm not going to be the biggest fan of myth in a shell like this to be quite honest. Standstill is a very interesting idea, but it doesn't lend itself well to the mentor plan of chaining cantrips together to create tokens (on paper). In practice, I imagine mentor is more of a long game threat that standstill won't be interacting with it. That being said, if/when you test it out, let us know! I'm intrigued by it.

[Minniehajj]

I am curious about the reasoning behind the 2 Rest in Peace in the sideboard since it is not synergetic with the Cabal Therapy and Deathrite Shaman. I also wonder if the 3 Swords to Plowshares was enough removal mainboard and if not wanting to sacrifice a Deathrite Shaman or Dark Confidant to Cabal Therapy when you need to answer a threat in their hand came up often. I do like the idea of using Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant along side countertop in that list.

As I mentioned above, I think that the rest in peace is likely just straight up wrong. Also, countertop serves as removal as well, but 3 swords is kinda pushing it

[TnA_Will]

As I mentioned above, I think that the rest in peace is likely just straight up wrong. Also, countertop serves as removal as well, but 3 swords is kinda pushing it

in my build the rest in peace is there for G/R lands, dredge, and the random pox/reanimator/crazy gy decks... In my build I could probably go down to 1 since I have tutor in my board. I'm itching to start play testing this thing and see how it handles different match ups in the meta!

[Minniehajj]

Getting demolished by shardless now...

[Berserking Now]

Shardless has problematic for me as well recently.

I am interested in trying 1-3 Sensei's Divining Top main probably without Counterbalance for filtering and giving Monastery Mentor spells when you have all dead or no cards in your hand. Another card I want to try at some point is Seeker of the Way in a more synergy based list.

[TnA_Will]

Playing in a local event tonight. I can tell you guys in my testing of my build/goldfishing I have already taken out 2x lingering souls and added 2x True-Name Nemisis. This was done for a couple reasons. 1st: adds to blue count (had FOW and no pitch card a few times!) 2: it seemed like a much better threat with a Jitteless deck over souls (yeah I know souls works with mentor/myth) but it just didn't seem as powerful on it's own as TNN.

I will write up a full report from the tournament and how things go. For redundancy and to get to it quicker I am also running 3 tops. Seems really good so far but determining the "turn 1" play in my deck seems a bit odd at times.... unlike the Esper tempo decks I've played in the past (stoneblade, home brew called bitterstill, and even the old thopter/balance decks) the turn 1 play seems very dependent on what land I have, what I want to do on turn 2-4, etc.... I am finding that the deck plays a lot more like a control deck that can "cheat" in some wins by quickly "comboing" off with mentor/tops,etc...

on the play game one, "not knowing the opponents deck", I goldfished this opening hand/scenario and wasn't really sure what the right play would be.....
Fetch land, tundra, Mishra's factory, Swords to Plowshares, Top, Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy.

knowing that I didn't have a counterspell and that I could flashback therapy to rip counterspells if I had to I went turn 1 fetch, get underground sea, cast cabal therapy naming FOW....
Turn 2 I drew, played mishras factory, had factory open to flashback therapy and used sea to cast top.

I could also see where laying the tundra, passing the turn bringing online STP and saving the brainstorm/fetch could be a good play as well...

Like I said I just wasn't really sure how this deck "wants" to play yet.... Any ideas/advice on which play line feels more correct to you guys?

[Minniehajj]

Playing in a local event tonight. I can tell you guys in my testing of my build/goldfishing I have already taken out 2x lingering souls and added 2x True-Name Nemisis. This was done for a couple reasons. 1st: adds to blue count (had FOW and no pitch card a few times!) 2: it seemed like a much better threat with a Jitteless deck over souls (yeah I know souls works with mentor/myth) but it just didn't seem as powerful on it's own as TNN.

I will write up a full report from the tournament and how things go. For redundancy and to get to it quicker I am also running 3 tops. Seems really good so far but determining the "turn 1" play in my deck seems a bit odd at times.... unlike the Esper tempo decks I've played in the past (stoneblade, home brew called bitterstill, and even the old thopter/balance decks) the turn 1 play seems very dependent on what land I have, what I want to do on turn 2-4, etc.... I am finding that the deck plays a lot more like a control deck that can "cheat" in some wins by quickly "comboing" off with mentor/tops,etc...

on the play game one, "not knowing the opponents deck", I goldfished this opening hand/scenario and wasn't really sure what the right play would be.....
Fetch land, tundra, Mishra's factory, Swords to Plowshares, Top, Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy.

knowing that I didn't have a counterspell and that I could flashback therapy to rip counterspells if I had to I went turn 1 fetch, get underground sea, cast cabal therapy naming FOW....
Turn 2 I drew, played mishras factory, had factory open to flashback therapy and used sea to cast top.

I could also see where laying the tundra, passing the turn bringing online STP and saving the brainstorm/fetch could be a good play as well...

Like I said I just wasn't really sure how this deck "wants" to play yet.... Any ideas/advice on which play line feels more correct to you guys?
Go ahead and repost your list real quick, with whatever changes you've made, I'd be interested to analyze the scenario when I know the list

[TnA_Will]

Go ahead and repost your list real quick, with whatever changes you've made, I'd be interested to analyze the scenario when I know the list

1 Creeping Tar Pit [WWK]
4 Flooded Strand [KTK]
1 Island [M15]
4 Mishra's Factory [4ED]
1 Plains [M15]
4 Polluted Delta [KTK]
3 Tundra [LEA]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]
1 Scrubland [3ED]

Creatures (3)
3 Monastery Mentor [FRF]

Other Spells (35)
4 Brainstorm [MMQ]
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
2 Counterspell [7ED]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
3 Gitaxian Probe [NPH]
2 True-Name Nemisis
4 Myth Realized [DTK]
3 Sensei's Divining Top [CHK]
4 Standstill [ODY]
1 Supreme Verdict [RTR]
4 Swords to Plowshares [ICE]

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]
2 Containment Priest

[hofzge]

I like the list from the IQ. SounterTop and Mentor are like a match made in heaven and the Confidants make sure you don't run out of steam.

I will try this next week:

Land (19)

1x Bayou
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Artifact (4)

4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (12)

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (11)

3x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder

Creature (11)

3x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Monastery Mentor

Enchantment (3)

3x Counterbalance

Sideboard (15)

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Containment Priest
1x Engineered Plague
2x Flusterstorm
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Meddling Mage
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Zealous Persecution

This list is a cross between Deathblade without the clunk that is Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull and Miracles without the awkwardness that are miracles in hand. While it has a lot of good sides it also has an atrocious manabase.
I would like to add one Jace to the maindeck as a draw spell, as well as a way to win games, but 19 lands and tight slots won't let me.
I am very open to suggestions.

[grimskies]

Team UltraPro is playing EsperMentor at GP: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea15/legacy-mentors-2015-11-07
Painful Truths, DRS + Tropical Island main, Abrupt Decay from the board

You can see deck in action here: http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/v/24505351 (around 6:03:40)

[Minniehajj]

Team UltraPro is playing EsperMentor at GP: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsea15/legacy-mentors-2015-11-07
Painful Truths, DRS + Tropical Island main, Abrupt Decay from the board

You can see deck in action here: http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/v/24505351 (around 6:03:40)

THIS. This seems like the tech we need to keep up with shardless now. I'd love to see a decklist if anyone has one, or I guess I can wait until round 15 =P

[TheArchitect]

I am curious what their lists look as well. I am skeptical about painful truths actually being good. I considered it but then decided I would rather just have more ways to cast brainstorm and played more snaps, mini-jace and JTMS. Maybe I dismissed it too quickly though. Chapins manabase looks atrocious though; I saw at least 2 basics, 4 colors, karakas and scrubland.

[Minniehajj]

I am curious what their lists look as well. I am skeptical about painful truths actually being good. I considered it but then decided I would rather just have more ways to cast brainstorm and played more snaps, mini-jace and JTMS. Maybe I dismissed it too quickly though. Chapins manabase looks atrocious though; I saw at least 2 basics, 4 colors, karakas and scrubland.

The mana base was miserable, too many lands that can't cast Deathrite Shaman D=

Painful truths was compared to Shardless Agent that always hits ancestral visions, according to Chapin. Not sure how valid that actually is, but it can't be miserable.

[Berserking Now]

I tested Painful Truth against Canadian Thresh in two games. It was miserable enough for me to scrap the idea but further testing would be needed. I might go back to testing it. Could I have a second opinion on using 2 Pithing Needle instead of 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Null Rod in the sideboard?

Also, that mana base sounds disgusting.

[TheArchitect]

I don't think thresh is a matchup where you would want painful truths. Its too win more there. Against thresh if you are at a point in the game where you can safely resolve resolve powerful 3 mana spells, you probably are already winning. I could see it being good against midrange decks. Agent having a body is very relevant though and there are plenty of times where agent into goyf, or agent into decay are way better than agent into drawing 3 cards.

In my testing, I have not been a huge fan of deathrite in the deck, but I also prefer esper stoneblade over 4c deathblade for similar reasons. But the manabase I would use is something close to this:

20 Lands:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Flats
3 Sea
3 Tundra
1 Bayou/Savannah
1 Tropical
1 Scrubland (maybe a basic plains or swamp in place)
1 Island

[JBlaze]

From my experience playing 4c Deathblade decks your first fetch almost always gets Underground Sea and you can almost never afford to fetch a basic so you just play all duals.

[lampsa]

Hi,

I have lately been playing with a list featuring quite a few new cards. While Painful Truths has been quite ok, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been the one I have been really impressed with. That card is a real powerhouse in Miracles match-up, acts a legitimate win condition and provides incidental like offsetting things like Night of Souls' Betrayal and Dread of Night.

The match-ups I have had most problems with are Show and Tell, Elves and random Blood Moon, Chalice etc. decks with multiple prison elements.

Lands (21)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Instants (15)

4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

Sorceries (9)

3 Unearth
3 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
1 Supreme Verdict

Creatures (13)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Sideboard (15)

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Extirpate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Null Rod
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle

[Berserking Now]

That list looks interesting. How are the True-Name Nemesis, Unearths, and Wastelands performing in your variant? I am also curious if you find 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Counterspell enough disruption for your variant.

[lampsa]

That list looks interesting. How are the True-Name Nemesis, Unearths, and Wastelands performing in your variant? I am also curious if you find 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Counterspell enough disruption for your variant.

I think 4 Wastelands is probably too much, but they keep Spell Pierce relevant for a little longer. I think the lack of disruptive elements really shows when you are playing against Elves and Show and Tell. On the other hand, you don't get stuck with a Thoughtseize in top deck mode. Unearth is just great with Monastery Mentor and Snapcaster Mage (and baby Jace). I would play exactly one TNN. It is pretty great against Batterskull, a resilient threat against Miracles, and makes the Tarmogoyf decks commit a lot of creatures to the battlefield which you can sweep away with Verdict.

[Minniehajj]

Hi,

I have lately been playing with a list featuring quite a few new cards. While Painful Truths has been quite ok, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been the one I have been really impressed with. That card is a real powerhouse in Miracles match-up, acts a legitimate win condition and provides incidental like offsetting things like Night of Souls' Betrayal and Dread of Night.

The match-ups I have had most problems with are Show and Tell, Elves and random Blood Moon, Chalice etc. decks with multiple prison elements.

Lands (21)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Instants (15)

4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

Sorceries (9)

3 Unearth
3 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
1 Supreme Verdict

Creatures (13)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Sideboard (15)

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Extirpate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Null Rod
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Pithing Needle


Intriguing, but not a huge fan of 4 wastelands. and not playing cabal therapy seems rather suspect.

Going forward, I think I wanna try the original list that sparked this thread, TheArchitect's list, along with 3 painful truths in place of DTT. Might be a good starting skeleton.

[Berserking Now]

Team Ultrapro's Deck List is up. I do not like how it looks on paper honestly.

Deck List for Reference:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Council's Judgment
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Misdirection
1 Notion Thief
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction

I like the Council's Judgment main as an answer to problematic permanents but the sideboard seems to be a mess. Personally, I would not play less than 4 Cabal Therapy and without Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

[Minniehajj]

I like the Council's Judgment main as an answer to problematic permanents but the sideboard seems to be a mess. Personally, I would not play less than 4 Cabal Therapy and without Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

Agreed with both of these points. Far too powerful to not be playing IMO

[TnA_Will]

Well I have now tested some. The deck is very powerful in most mid game situations and has the ability to win on turns 5-8. Against Infect game 1 it's really hard because of having hands like Fetch, Top, Therapy, Myth, Tnn,Tundra,Brainstorm, Factory. If i'm on the play its beginning to get more clear that I need to start "aggressive" and go with a turn 1 Myth. It took probably 20 games or so to cement that idea in my head. Still with different options of "how am I going to work" being open on game 1/turn 1, it makes it difficult. I seemed to get Infect very easily after sideboarding (of course I can't do anything about the OOPS I WIN hands they get every now and then...)

In testing against stoneforge decks I found that game 1 is a grindy battle which they can get due to having equipment for their TNNS to outlcass my TNNS. If I stick the "combo" of Mentor + Top etc.. I can get the games, it really feels like an even match up to me.

Miracles I just outclass due to the Myth/Standstill package. Kind of funny to watch standstill do so much work against Miracles!

That is all I have tested against so far. I plan on hitting up the local shop in Columbus Ohio tomorrow for more testing! I will post once I get the deck more exposed to other match ups.

[TnA_Will]

Played in a local last night. Ended up going 1-2. Win was against infect barely got it 2-1, just got all the control aspects I needed in time. Lost to OmniShow 2-0; game 1 he was on the play and when I see his hand on my turn 1 off probe I see fetch, force, cunning wish, show and tell, emerkul, brainstorm and omniscience. when he had already cast a turn 1 ponder.... I had 1 fow but he drew into more counter magic and slams show and tell thru on turn 3 I loose...Game 2 I board in Humility and he runs a turn 2 pyromancer out, and a turn 3 pyromancer out and by turn 5 has out 8 tokens to do token beat down before I could get humilty onboard and stabilized.

The other loss I had was to a really good miracles player. I lost 0-2. Game 1 I didn't see any standstills or really any draw spells and he had the 1 for 1 answers on factories, myth realized, and councils judgement on TNN. Game 2 I was aggreviated and boarded incorrectly. When I cast E. Tutor I expected to see humilty but I had forgot to side it in and the next turn he bashed me in the face with monk tokens that were 5/5's. Game 2 went a really long time and I had him down to 5 before he stabilized. I had 1 huge turn left where I cast a TNN and tarpit in the same turn hoping to get there (this was right after he miracled a terminus so I thought I was ok and he found judgement and snapcaster on swords. His list runs 4 snapcasters which provided me with a LOT of headaches instead of the normal miracles builds. The deck held its own against Miracles and I know my match up is usually pretty good against it. The omni deck just rolled me over though and I couldn't do much.

very weird meta at the LGS! Only 1 rug delver deck, 2 miracles, and then it was everywhere, lol! 1 storm, 1 JunkLoam, 1 OmniShow, 1 infect, 1 EsperBlade, 1 EsperMentor, and 1 ANT. Plan on playing next week trying to get more testing in and seeing what changes I need to make if any. Still feeling things out. Painful Truths was suggested but a draw 3 for 3 just doesn't seem as strong to me in this type of deck when I'm running 4x brainstorm,4x standstill, 3x Probes, and 3 Tops.

I may test it but not sure what to really cut. In all games I did find that Myth was amazing and really can do so much work, especially against Miracles. Making them have to waste a 1 for 1 terminus on a 6/6 myth seems very good, especially when I had cantripped and had more threats to deploy as soon as it was dealt with.

[Minniehajj]

The other loss I had was to a really good miracles player. I lost 0-2.

I'm flattered ;)

You played really well, I just had a much better draw the second game. Cheers, was fun playing against you!

As for going forward with the list, I like myth realized a lot, it caused me many headaches, but I really do believe that Painful Truths is real, as I mentioned last night. Spent most of my afternoon prior to the event testing a Painful Truths build, and it felt really good, letting us go toe-to-toe with anything grindy, be it miracles or shardless. As for fixing Omni, you pretty much have to be playing some number of meddling mages, more therapies, etc. I would have a fair amount of sideboarded fast combo hate, as well as some grindy deck hate. Thankfully, there are some overlaps there, such as meddling mage and vendilion clique. Just some thoughts!

[Minniehajj]

Team Ultrapro's Deck List is up. I do not like how it looks on paper honestly.

Deck List for Reference:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Council's Judgment
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Misdirection
1 Notion Thief
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction

I like the Council's Judgment main as an answer to problematic permanents but the sideboard seems to be a mess. Personally, I would not play less than 4 Cabal Therapy and without Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

I like the idea of the deep green splash for decays, similar to how storm boards into one green source and multiple decays since decay is great against decks that don't attack our mana. I agree with your sentiments though, I would absolutely not be without Meddling Mage or 4 Therapies, they're the reason the deck remains in its colors and is still quite good right now, even though we don't see many Pyromancer-therapy shells anymore.

[Berserking Now]

Recently, I have not been happy with Counterspell in the deck. It has been hard to integrate into prowess overruns and token generating chains and I often do not want to keep mana up for it. Has anyone else been having issues with it recently?

I recently tried a forceless, jaceless, and Snapcaster Mageless variant with 4 DRS, 1 Zealous Persecution, 2 Bitterblossom, 3 Lingering Souls, and Sorin, Solemn Visitor and with 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Cabal Therapy as the disruption package. Through some preliminary testing, I can see the appeal behind DRS in the deck yet I feel it cannot utilized it at full potential and is often underwhelming. The deck seems to be able to address the issue of not being able to pull ahead in some matchups by being aggressive enough to make it less likely that you reach that point in the game. Tempo decks seem to be an issue for this variant so far.

The Seeker of the Way variant that I tested had issues regarding Seeker of the Way consuming spells that Monastery Mentor could use so I backed away from that variant.

I am probably going to test a variant that uses Unearth, Fact or Fiction, and Flip Jace or Snapcaster Mage going forward.

[Minniehajj]

I like Unearth and agree with the counterspell point. Shamans were to facilitate a better green splash as well as gain life, since we're falling pretty low with incidental damage and painful truths. I'm fairly certain that I'm always going to play JTMS in any blue deck I ever play, but that's likely just my miracles tendencies coming into play here. Unearth seems amazing though.

[twndomn]

So yeah, Hall of Fame Patrick Chapin tried Esper Mentor and then did a Podcast about his understanding and playing at the GP.

http://www.toplevelpodcast.com/the-painful-truths-about-monastery-mentor

[One With Nothing]

Hey there fellow Mentors!

I've been testing Team UltraPro's variant of our deck out a lot in the last month or so and have really enjoyed playing the deck, but come looking to you guys for some advice. As a quick reference, here's the list I played (a slight modification of the Chapin and friends list):

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Council's Judgment
2 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
3 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Misdirection
1 Back to Basics
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction

So for quick reference, the mainboard is mostly the same. I have been tinkering with the idea of running another delve threat like Angler, since the graveyard tends to get filled up as you 'go longer,' plus the Angler is a Karakas hedge AND helps stem the tide of aggressive decks.

The side I changed up to run the Meddling Mages (threat diversity and hate diversity is great in the combo and control matchups). The Bayou goes with the Abrupt Decay, in that it gives more stable mana and lets me bring in an extra land against Wasteland strategies if needed. And in games where you want Decay and don't want the extra land, you can generally side out the basic Swamp (e.g. Miracles unless they have Blood Moon). The Back to Basics is a test spot that is very greedy on my part, and I haven't gotten to test a whole lot yet. Thusfar with my testing, I tend to do very decently against the larger part of the format. I have recently had some issues with RUG Delver and was wondering if you guys had any insight into the matchup? I've considered some other board cards like Bitterblossom, Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Murderous Cut, Disfigure, Lingering Souls, Timely Reinforcements, Umezawa's Jitte, and Toxic Deluge, but none of them 'feel right' in my head. I will move forward with testing some of these options out, but would love your opinions here before I proceed any further.

Anyways, thanks for reading guys, and I look forward to any and all discussion!

[Berserking Now]

I have not used the team ultrapro variant before so I do not have much advise for that matchup. Regarding the mentioned cards, I have found Umezawa's Jitte to be not fast enough it to make a difference against RUG Delver from testing. In that matchup, I tend to want trumps such as tasigur and angler or more cheap answers for their threats. I have considered back to basics in this deck before but I have not tested it yet.

On a different note, I ran into space issues building the fact or fiction variant I was working on previously and I am in the progress of working on a new variant. Trying to find a way not to fold to punishing fire + abrupt decay + -1/-1 effects and a miracle trumps that does not fold to izzet staticaster or wear//tear has been a pain.

[One With Nothing]

That's about how I felt about Jitte too, it seems pretty slow. Though when it gets online (much like a lot of those cards), it's pretty great. One card I distinctly forgot is Baleful Strix as well, but that card feels very much like taking the deck in an uncomfortable direction. I don't think we want the deck to be slower. I think I'm going to personally go -1 JTMS from the main and go +1 Gurmag Angler. It's a versatile threat, it attacks with it's size while Mentor attacks more horizontally. Having another Delve threat will really go the distance I feel. In addition to that, Angler can't get Pyroblasted. Especially in these post-board games, I'm siding out JTMS because he just eats Pyroblast, and that's not always a play I want to be making.

Back to Basics will for sure require further testing, but as is common with Legacy decks, we get 15 cards in the side and there can be lots of 'correct' cards to play. I'm not sure there are other cards that do similar things. Do you think you would bring this in against Delver decks too? Or is it too slow?

I don't usually have any issues with Miracles with this deck at all, but I can see how getting past Jund could be a little troublesome (I must admit, I have only played against Jund twice and didn't seem to have any serious issues). I know it probably sounds a bit weird, but I've had some pretty decent success testing out Ob Nixilis, Reignited in both of these matchups. It gives you card advantage, threatens to ultimate very quickly, can come down and help stabilize the board by immediately answering a trouble creature, and is nigh impossible to get dinged by Counterbalance. It's a consideration slot for the side, but personally, as it stands, I don't have trouble with these matchups. I think you could consider cutting (at least in my version) the 3rd Painful Truths from the sideboard for it. In the examples you cited though, it seems to answer ALL of the problems you are looking to correct. Maybe give it a go?

[Berserking Now]

Thank you for the suggestion. I am indecisive about bringing in back to basics without having tested it.

Edit: Baleful strix can be good in that matchup but it gets bolted often. It being an artifact can sometimes conflict with angler and tasigur by fueling their goyfs.

[TnA_Will]

Haven't updated yo uguys in a while. Here is where testing has led me. Part of me really wants to test 4 abrupt decay over force of wills but I haven't went out on that far of a limb. The inclusion of deathrite has been awesome!! It makes standstill really good in mid/late game if I have a deathrite down.

Lands (22)
1 Creeping Tar Pit [WWK]
4 Flooded Strand [KTK]
1 Island [M15]
4 Mishra's Factory [4ED]
1 Plains [M15]
4 Polluted Delta [KTK]
1 Tropical Island [3ED]
3 Tundra [LEA]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]

Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman [RTR]
3 Monastery Mentor [FRF]
2 True-Name Nemesis [C13]

Other Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm [MMQ]
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
3 Gitaxian Probe [NPH]
4 Myth Realized [DTK]
2 Sensei's Divining Top [CHK]
4 Standstill [ODY]
4 Swords to Plowshares [ICE]

[maharis]

Here's a version I've been testing, nothing to great to report yet but I really like Intuition with a heavy flashback package with Mentor.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lingering Souls
2 Spell Pierce
2 Intuition
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Think Twice
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Reanimate

2 Wasteland
8 fetches
3 basics
1 Tar Pit
2 Tundra
2 Usea
1 Scrubland
1 Trop

Honestly the biggest issue I'm having is the manabase, trying to fight against Blood Moon while also having access to lots of colors. Wasteland is there to feed DRS and have an out to annoyances like Tabernacle or Port but might just be terrible. Probably want to just cut the swamp for a ponder.

Intuition is super fun. Reanimate-Mentor-Snapcaster is guaranteed Mentor, and Souls-Therapy-Therapy is sick, especially if you also have a probe. Think Twice is a nice card to toss into Intuition piles if you need it and also is two instant speed Mentor triggers that don't require a target. Then there's always hail marys if you need to get triple force/stp. I imagine double snap-reanimate has applications as well but haven't tried.

[One With Nothing]

Maharis --- I really like where you're going with your list. It looks to be very midrangey and even grindier with the inclusion of Lingering Souls. With that extra token making, do you ever feel like the ZP would be better served as an equipment like a Jitte instead so you can maximize your value out of those tokens? Also, is the reanimate for you other matchups? I've had middling success with Unearth, as it gets back everything in our deck for no loss of life, but I can get behind the value of snagging an opposing Goyf or some other troublesome creatures. I just wonder if the life loss is worth the risk in those aggro matchups. I've been trying to find a good sideboard slot to help out with them, and am torn on lots of different options, but I never thought of Reanimate. What's your experience? Also, what's a normal Intuition pile for you look like? Are you just trying to take them on the express train to value town? Lastly, what's your sideboard look like? Do you have a plan for them bringing in graveyard hate? A lot of times when I'm playing, my opponent will bring in the harder graveyard hate for my ~5 cards that interact. It's definitely a heavier reliance on that zone in your list, so what's your gameplan versus a RIP or a Grafdigger's Cage?

TnA_Will --- I don't know what to think of your variant. It seems a little all over the place, but do you think you need to make it a classical Standstill deck? Sure, you can use Standstill as your draw engine, or use it to help you keep in the games, but it reminds me of a bygone era in Legacy (BUG Landstill). Nowadays, people are cascading into Ancestral Visions and casting Painful Truths, or just going a little bit bigger. Let your testing speak for itself though, as I am not familiar with your list. I am also guessing that the Cabal Therapy seems a little more out of place in your build than others, as I imagine in a lot of times, you want to draw some action off of your Standstill, and when that happens, the cards in your opponent's hand tend to matter a lot less. Regardless, I think it's probably a strong player with your copies of Myth Realized. Also, I'd really love to see your sideboard. As we all know, this combination of colors has a lot to offer and creates some difficult sideboard construction options. Lastly, have you considered any of the planeswalker or perhaps a Delve card or two? It's very easy to fill up the yard, and you're not playing any interaction involving the zone. Delve is very low risk, even more low risk because in a Landstill build you're gonna be hitting your land drops EVEN MORE often. Maybe try out a Tasigur? Or a Murderous Cut? I've had pretty good success with both in my build and even when they do have some kind of graveyard hate, it's still just fine to cast a lot of times.

What are your guys' thoughts on Cabal Therapy? Earlier in the thread, there's A LOT of love for the card, and I'm a huge fan as well, but I'm not sure I can get behind the full playset in here. Most of the times I just don't need it, or just grind my opponent's hand down to nothing, and then it only ends up being a one-turn anthem for my Mentor and friends, which is incredibly underwhelming to me. I really like the 2 main and 1 sideboard copies, as in the matchups where it's really relevant, I like to pair it up with more diverse types of hate cards to complicate things for the more unfair decks.

Also, on a personal list note, I'm looking for some advice on a card to help hedge against Delver and/or other aggressive decks in my sideboard. Considering the nature of the deck in general, I don't think that I want a sweeper, as the best one is 4 mana in Supreme Verdict, but I almost never reach 4 in a timely manner against aggro. I've been going over a pretty comprehensive list in my head for slots and can't seem to pick. Yes, I'm also running Abrupt Decay in my board, but it's hard to side that in against all the aggressive decks with their Wastelands rampaging about. Do ya'll mind chiming in with your personal experiences? Here's what I've been thinking about:

Abrupt Decay - Good, but easily cut off by the presence of Wasteland.
Disfigure - Generic early removal, doesn't kill Goyf, Mongoose, Tasigur/Angler, TNN
Murderous Cut - Kills most everything, but competes with other graveyard cards AND gets hit by whatever harder graveyard hate my opponent boards in.
Liliana of the Veil - Great if it sticks, not TOO expensive, handles most everything pretty well, but 3 mana (especially playing against Daze).
Reanimate - Pulls back a blocker from either side, life loss is a downside against aggro.
Baleful Strix - Seems strange as a 1-of removal spell, trades with everything, grows opposing Goyfs by an extra one.
Council's Judgment - Great catch all, a bit hard on the mana (espeically playing against Daze, again)
Path to Exile - Just plain 'gets it gone' against aggro, but the mana is more relevant against the slightly slower decks
Innocent Blood - Very cheap and effective, poor with my own Deathrite out.
Vindicate - Easier to cast than Council's Judgment, can nuke a land if you're lucky/greedy, but has issues with TNN/Mongoose
Submerge - Seems decent in most matchups, but perhaps a bit more inflexible compared to some other options.
Lingering Souls - Creates extra blockers, gums up the board, and triggers Prowess. Also soft to graveyard hate.
Timely Reinforcements - More narrow than Souls, but more impactful. Hurts to get this Dazed, where I'd be less worried about Souls eating a Daze.
Umezawa's Jitte - Slower and no good without creatures (and if we stick a creature, we are usually winning already). Probably best paired with a card like Souls, but that requires two spots where I only have one.
True-Name Nemesis - Fight fire with fire! Or so I'm told, but most times I think sticking a Mentor is probably better, though slamming this guy on 3 and having him resolve is much harder to answer once on the board, especially where a lot of opponents are siding out FOW. Tapping down for Mentor is rough on 3, and very risky. This guy seems more reasonable to just throw out there and hope he doesn't get countered. By this logic, Liliana is probably better.

Either way, as you can see, there are a lot of options to consider, and I have no idea which direction to go in. What do you guys think? Which removal do you think would be best suited to work with our deck variant?

[TnA_Will]

TnA_Will --- I am also guessing that the Cabal Therapy seems a little more out of place in your build than others, as I imagine in a lot of times, you want to draw some action off of your Standstill, and when that happens, the cards in your opponent's hand tend to matter a lot less. Regardless, I think it's probably a strong player with your copies of Myth Realized. Also, I'd really love to see your sideboard. As we all know, this combination of colors has a lot to offer and creates some difficult sideboard construction options. Lastly, have you considered any of the planeswalker or perhaps a Delve card or two? It's very easy to fill up the yard, and you're not playing any interaction involving the zone. Delve is very low risk, even more low risk because in a Landstill build you're gonna be hitting your land drops EVEN MORE often. Maybe try out a Tasigur? Or a Murderous Cut? I've had pretty good success with both in my build and even when they do have some kind of graveyard hate, it's still just fine to cast a lot of times.


Here is what my side board is currently.
Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
2 Containment Priest [C14]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

As far as stratagies go-
Rug/Bug BitterBlossom comes in,Clique and Karakas in, Tutors come in. Out 1x standstill,1x Myth, 4x forces come out.
Tes/Ant/Omni Show/Cloudpost/Painter (basically combo in general except R/G lands) Tutors come in, Canonist in, 2x Fluster storm in, 1 Humilty in, 1 karakas in, Clique in: Out 4x STP, 4x deathrites out, 1x standstill out.
Infect: 1x Bitterblossom in, 2x Zealous in,3x Tutors in, 2x Flusterstorm in: Out 4x Deathrites, 4x Standstill out.
Miracles: 1x Bitterblossom in, 3x Tutors in: Out 4 STP
R/G Lands: 1x BitterBlossom in,1x Rest in Peace in, 3x Tutors in, 1x Humility in, 1x Karakas in, 1 Clique in Out 4x Shawmans, 4x STP's out.

I'm at work or I would think about the rest like Elves/ReAnimator/Burn/D&T/etc... but I haven't played against any of those match ups with this current configuration. I'm pretty sure based on my Legacy experience with standstill type decks I know how I would board but I just haven't tested this specific configuration against those decks yet. Still need to before Philli in Feb to Iron out all the details.

[One With Nothing]

Here is what my side board is currently.
Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
2 Containment Priest [C14]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]


You seem to be a bit more controlling, have you considered potentially even boarding in a singleton Counterbalance out of the side to go with your Tops? Sure, it's a bit slow, but that's respectable against combo once it gets rolling as well. It sounds crazy in my head, but I figure it's worth a thought. I think it wouldn't hurt to move your Karakas mainboard too, as white is our primary colors and you could easily cut a Tundra for it (especially with 8 fetches). I've personally never been a fan of running more than 2 Enlightened Tutor, since you can find everything with all the cantrips as well, so that could theoretically open up another slot. You could also consider some non-zero number of Meddling Mage to go with or replace your Containment Priest. Since you have more Probe and Therapy, you will have that information a lot more often to completely lock out a card. I think if you're looking for some hedging against aggro, you could just play an Umezawa's Jitte in your board, since you can tutor that bad boy up with Enlightened Tutor lickety-split. And that can help turn the D&T or Delver matchup in some/most scenarios. Other options for aggro hosers include Toxic Deluge, Engineered Explosives, Supreme Verdict, etc.... I'm a bigger fan of Engineered Explosives here, since it's flexible, settable up to 4, tutorable, AND dodges Counterbalance against Miracles.

[surface33]

Hi guys I am new to the forum but I have been playing legacy for a long time. My last deck before this one was miracles, I decided to change because a lot of people play it right now. To the point, I have been testing this deck for a couple months and I have to say that the best version in my opinion and with my own results is the one chapin took to the gp. I think the reason why I got better results with this decklist and why I think the deck is more powerful is because it focuses in one plan and the list has a lot of synergy while other decks posted in this thread that I have tried are sometimes a mix of game plans. I have made a couple changes to optimize it but i am still missing something.
I play chapins list with this changes:

-1 ponder
-1 tasigur
-1 fetch
+1 vendilion
+1 cabal therapy
+1 underground sea
a lot more changes in the sideboard(2 zealous, sylvan library etc)

The justification is that I wanted more disruption and a better MU against miracles and combo because they are predominant in my meta. For tasigur is just personal choice, when playing against a deck that runs karakas he is a dead card and vendilion is also perfect in my meta. However my biggest problem with the deck is the lack of turn 2 plays when we dont have deathrite shaman, I think our objective is not to fall behind early in the game and without a 2-drop I find that difficult some times, do you guys have the same problem? I was thinking of playing confidant or baleful strix but non of them convince me completely.

TNA_will Looking at your deck list looks like you are playing a more control oriented deck, why did you choose in that case to play mentor and gitaxian over sfm and equipments? deathblade always seemed to me better at doing that.

[One With Nothing]

I would tend to agree with you that the Chapin list is the best baseline at the moment. It's very strong. I made some similar changes to you, except slightly in the opposite direction. I cut a Jace, the Mind Sculptor for a Gurmag Angler. Especially with Miracles mucking about, and everyone else and their brother running Pyroblast, Papa Jace is not somewhere I'm comfortable tapping out for these days. We have difficulty sometimes 'bridging' to the midgame, as you stated discussing turn two plays. A lot of times the turn two plays seem to have a specific line in mind when looking at the hands, and having that extra threat in the form of Angler can give a pretty clear path to the appropriate play.

How are you liking working with nine fetches instead of ten? I trimmed one of the Islands for an Underground Sea, but have seldom missed the extra Island. Do you mind posting your sideboard? I've made some modifications and changes as well, and would like to see the other technology that's currently in place. Mine is as follows:

1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ob Nixilis, Planeswalker
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Meddling Mage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Murderous Cut

I've been considering swapping the Murderous Cut for some other form of removal and/or card to hedge against aggro, but can't seem to come up with the best choice, as per my previous posting. I've even considered an extra green source in the board to more easily cast Abrupt Decay, but using Bayou doesn't play well with the fetchland base. The Ob Nixilis, while a bit strange looking, has absolutely overperformed. He comes in for the grindier matchups that are trying to 'go long' against us, and does very well instead of the third Painful Truths.


TNA_will Looking at your deck list looks like you are playing a more control oriented deck, why did you choose in that case to play mentor and gitaxian over sfm and equipments? deathblade always seemed to me better at doing that.
I completely agree here, that does seem to be better in the Deathblade shell. The more controlling you go, the more of a departure from Mentor is appropriate (unless you're a filthy Miracles player, of course!).

[surface33]

The thing with jace is that it is really hard to kill if you dont counter it, and while I dont find myself winning a lot with him but he helps me set up a in plan.However I think you are right about ReB and cutting one for an angler looks like a good idea, I will try it.
Regarding fetchlands I havent noticed the difference, in my case running one more dual brings more value than a fetch, you only interact with the fetch if you draw it but the second underground can be fetched. Another thing I have considered is playing two wastelands and cutting one island and another land, what do you think? maybe its not the plan we want to follow, but when i played deathblade having acess to occasional land destruction was nice. Also wastelands give a lot of fuel to deathrites.

My sideboard is as follows:
1 vendilion
2 zealous
1 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle-> I ALWAYS have one of this regardless the deck I play for similar reasons to the sylvan library
1 containment priest
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library->I cant give a really good reason for playing this card, I just really like it and Its a card that can always come in when you have a dead card on board
1 supreme ver
1 missdirection

What about the 2-drop? do we need it? Are baleful, hymn to tourach or confidant good options?

[One With Nothing]

The Angler has been performing very well, and I haven't missed the Jace. Thing about Jace is, the matchups where you REALLY want him tend to go long enough for you to find and cast one. This includes matchups like Lands. I'm not sure I care for the Wastelands, but your mileage may vary. I like the fact that the mana is rather stable in here, especially when running Painful Truths. A lot of times I find myself tapping out, and when we don't have any early threats, Wasteland is far less good. If you have a lot of troubling lands in your format, I'd consider it. I think the thing that comes up most is that we are somewhat weak to cards like Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows, or the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but those are corner cases, to which we have other outs for. This is another reason I like the Angler/Tasigur, because they are 'vertical threats' instead of the 'horizontal threat' that is Monastery Mentor. Also, while Wasteland does fuel Deathrite, with the climate of the format, you are likely to find plenty of fetches between both graveyards and/or your opponent's Wastelands.

I like where your sideboard has gone, though I'm not big on the Supreme Verdict. It seems best against decks like D&T and Delver, which will be focused on denying our mana in the early game, making Verdict not come out to play until turn 5-6. I like the idea of using something a bit cheaper and potentially repeatable to shore up those matchups. My best ideas involve Liliana of the Veil, Path to Exile, or Lingering Souls. I can understand the Sylvan Library, but I have my doubts about it in this deck. We have access to Painful Truths (or in my case, Ob Nixilis) to help things out. If you combine the cantripping/smoothing, surviving until 3-5 mana shouldn't be a big problem, especially in the matchups where it's relevant. Sure, the Sylvan Library is great with fetchlands, but I'm a bit more focused on the higher impact cards here. What are you utilizing Pithing Needle most against? I was thinking about Stony Silence because it's similar but different. Pithing Needle is another answer to some of the 'trouble lands' I mentioned above, but I think Stony Silence/Null Rod is way more powerful in handling pesky artifacts.

I also play a split into two Meddling Mage to force the combo decks to jump through more hoops when playing in the post-board games. One of the keys to beating combo decks is to diversify your hate and spread it out over a couple zones, that way you force your opponent to answer different types of hate by diluting their deck. We already have cards that disrupt their hand, and some countermagic, but by adding in cards that target the graveyard or permanents that must also be answered, it vastly complicates the combo matchups. I used to play ANT, and would always have trouble against Meddling Mage decks because they would have counterspells AND Meddling Mage, as well as the occasional extra 'zone hate' card like Surgical or Cage. Basically, the more hoops they have to go through, the better.

I don't know that we need a two drop, since our early game is just to kinda survive to the mid game and force our opponents into bad trades because our cards are more powerful or require immediate answers (while slowly grinding a bit of value). Baleful Strix is probably the best one if you want to try it, but cards like Hymn complicate/destabilize the manabase a bit more (especially with stuff like Sylvan Library out of the board). I think as far as 'surviving' goes, playing an extra piece of removal in the board isn't terrible against the matchups where that bridging is more important. You could even board Baleful Strix if you have a lot of aggro in your metagame. I think Bob is too risky here with the expensive spells AND Painful Truths. I've heard discussion about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy too, but haven't gotten a chance to test it yet. Though the way things are going, I have had no desire to run him because of his downside with Papa Jace, and his lightning rod status among two-drops.

[surface33]

Yeah , fair enough, you make lot of good points, specially about wasteland and the two drop. I use needle against a lot of decks, It comes in against sneak attack, miracles, d&t, bug(some times),painters and almost any deck that has powerful activated abilities, the card is just really good. You are also right about the supreme but we need a card that deals with every creature and supreme does it, against d&t and elves our best card is zealous, the card is incredibly good with mentor. I was thiking the same about the 2-drop, I will play baleful or nothing at all.
What are for you the worst MUs for you the deck? Oh and regarding the side I would really love to find a place for a second surgical, the card is really good against punishing and a lo of decks.

[One With Nothing]

Yeah , fair enough, you make lot of good points, specially about wasteland and the two drop. I use needle against a lot of decks, It comes in against sneak attack, miracles, d&t, bug(some times),painters and almost any deck that has powerful activated abilities, the card is just really good. You are also right about the supreme but we need a card that deals with every creature and supreme does it, against d&t and elves our best card is zealous, the card is incredibly good with mentor. I was thiking the same about the 2-drop, I will play baleful or nothing at all.
What are for you the worst MUs for you the deck? Oh and regarding the side I would really love to find a place for a second surgical, the card is really good against punishing and a lo of decks.

I can see the value of the Needle vs Null Rod for Sneak Attack and BUG (walkers), but that's about it. The only other relevant applications would be Needling trouble lands like Maze of Ith, but they can be pretty easily played around and/or hit by our very diverse threat selection. Just a thought, because Null Rod/Stony Silence is more of a 'screw you, I win' card in most of the matchups. Plus, the cards like Meddling Mage are very good against Sneak and Show because they perform a similar role in being a troublesome permanent (that also gets the beatdown on).

While Supreme Verdict does address everything, the other 'sweepers' are too expensive (4 mana), or have a big drawback (Toxic Deluge), or are restrictive against other factors (EE). I still run an EE, and it performs exceptionally, but I think a more traditional sweeper is unnecessary in this deck. Like I said before, bridging to the mid-late game is the most important thing we need to be focused on, and having another piece of removal to help get there will be what lets us win. Our topdecks are generally stronger than most of the format, and cards like Mentor, Tasigur, and Jace attack opponents from A LOT of different angles, making our late game harder to answer. Diversity and high-impact level are what makes the Esper Mentor deck such a strong choice in the first place.

My worst matchups are seemingly swingy, but require more testing for sure. I've had a bad run versus RUG Delver recently, but it's not awful. Shardless BUG seems like a coinflip, but that matchup is more patience than anything. You need to get Mentor and protect it while baiting Decays. There are a lot of different ways each of these matches could go, so you have to pick your role and stick with it. Decks like 12-post and MUD are troublesome, but Meddling Mage out of the board really helps forestall their supreme inevitability. I think one of the highest points of the deck (at least with testing I have recorded in my spreadsheet) is that it has a respectable matchup versus the field if we just know the angles and attack in the appropriate way. I know that can be said about a lot of Legacy decks, but I feel that the tight play is even more rewarding in this specific deck.

What are your thoughts on a mid-game bridge removal card? Whether it be a sweeper like Deluge, a stall card like Lingering Souls, a hard removal like Path to Exile, or a planeswalker/threat like Liliana?

[surface33]

Interesting point of view on EE, and I think you can follow your question with it.I dont think toxic fits the deck because we play shaman and mentor(despite bug playign shamans and toxic maindeck) but I may be wrong.maybe a copy of EE main deck can be a transition for the late game, however if we wanted to add EE we would probably need to cut Councils which I like but maybe does not add more than EE with 4 or even 5 colors in our deck. I do think we need this transition card and two copies would be great although I have no idea if the correct card is toxic, EE or liliana. It is important to take into account that its really hard to cut cards in this deck to the point that i had to cut a ponder to fit my third cabal therapy.
Medling mage is a good card against sneak and show but dies to reb, pyroclasm and all types of removal while needle doesnt die almost to anything from the deck.

[One With Nothing]

I really like having access to Council's Judgment. While WW is hard to make sometimes, it just flat out answers any problem for 1WW. Period. Plus, on really good days, you can Snap it back (although that rarely happens). Great point about Meddling Mage eating it to REB/Pyroblast. While that is completely true against Sneak and Show, it's far less true against other 'unfair' decks, since they don't have access to that card. I think I'm gonna stick with the Mages unless we see that kind of uptick in Sneak and Show. Another upside to Mage is that he comes in against control decks too, like Miracles. It's a little more comfortable committing to the board when you can Mage on Terminus or Swords. What do you like having the extra Therapies against? More specifically, when do you board them out? I have a hard time telling whether I'm supposed to keep them or not in a lot of games, as some of the grindier decks make it an absolutely terrible topdeck.

As a quick aside too, you mentioned bad matchups, and I tested a couple more matches last night with a friend, and Burn is a terrible matchup. Though I think that holds true to a lot of Legacy as well. I'm not sure any sideboard card would help here outside of swapping Combo hate to Leyline of Sanctity. This is certainly a possibility, but I think the other pieces function much better. Your thoughts?

[surface33]

yeah, burn seems pretty bad MU, but a lot lf decks can say that too. Councils is really good card and I think I will leave it but i am not comometely sure.

Well, yesterday I was able to test the deck a lot in a 260 man tournament and against a lot of different decks. My worst MU were elves, grixis and soecially JUND! I didnt think that jund was such a terrible MU, the punishing tool just killed everything I had. It was almost impossible. So based on all the results and feedback from some friends with experience I have made a some interesting chnages that I think improve the deck and make it more resustent to aggresive starts.
-1 jace
-1 therapy(played 3 maindeck)
-1 painful(played 2 maindeck)
-1 vendilion
-1supreme verdict(side)


+1 liliana of the veil
+1 toxic deludge
+1 tasigur
+1 ponder
+1 engeneered explosives(side)

So my biggest problems yesterday were the lack of removal and a vertical threat that the opponents have to asnwer. Tasigur fixes in a way the second part. As for the lack of removal toxic at first seemed bad with mentor and shamans, but if you think about it it kill the biggest threats without killing anything from our deck. It kills almost everything from grixis, elves, D&T,, nemesis and if you want to pay two lifes you will lose your tokens but even mentor will survive. Also, this is in the worst scenario, where you have something in play(in this case you might already have advantage and can not use it, the important part is that it gives an answer to something that we really cant deal with and it is a big amount of creatures. it can also go main deck!. The second addition was liliana, follows a similar logic, is a piece of removal and an early threat that can be gane winning if you play it turn 2. Maybe I would not play her if I didnt have anything to cut but jace underperformed, and having 3 maindeck, which is as much as miracles, seems too much. I think 2 jaces 1 liliana id a good split. Finally I wanted to bring back my 4 ponder and now that I olay tasigur I can move my vendilion to the side, however I am not sire about this change, what do you think?

And going back to the subject, how do you desl with punishing? You play shaman, but it will die, and I unly run one surgical on the side. Would you recomend playing ripe in the side or more surgicals?

[Berserking Now]

I play 2 Surgical Extraction in my sideboard for every variant I have tested. I wouldn't run Rest in Peace since it turns off your Cabal Therapies, Snapcaster Mages, and Deathrite Shamans. I found a card that could serve as a Jund and Shardless BUG trump in the sideboard, Sigarda, Host of the Herons. It is not susceptible to Punishing Fire, Liliana of the Veil, or Abrupt Decay and can attack over grounded creatures. Any thoughts on it?

[theMonster]

Hey, guys, been lurking for a bit and experimenting with a Delver version. But I wanted to run a Chapin-esque build by y'all that lowers the curve a smidgen and incorporates Myth Realized:


3 Myth Realized
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Pierce
1 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// sideboard - 16 cards ... where's the cut? //

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
1 Painful Truths
1 Supreme Verdict


A few things:

- I went with three Myth Realized because I want to see one early but not topdeck too many late.
- I'm very unsure about my manabase, as it seems most everyone is. I feel like this iteration can't run four basics because the addition of Myth Realized complicates the deck's one-drop mana requirements. It's crappy enough not to be able to cast Deathrite Shaman T1 off, say, basic Island; it would be equally lousy to not have the option to play Myth either. So I'm trying two basics, and I haven't had too many mana problems in goldfishing. Maybe the Plains should be a Swamp so I can cast Shaman in the face of Blood Moon, in which case I'd adjust my other lands accordingly, skewing more white. I also could see the argument for -1 Creeping Tar Pit and -1 Tundra for +1 Karakas and +1 Underground Sea, as Karakas probably has more utility than Tar Pit and doesn't enter the battlefield tapped. I'm no mana math wonk, so I defer to those people.
- Murderous Cut could be replaced with Council's Judgment, but I like the potential of Cut because it clears the way for an early Myth grown with cantrips to put pressure on my opponent.
- Do I have enough refueling with just two Jace, the Mind Sculptors and one Painful Truths? I figured more action with Myth could reduce the need for all that card draw, but the Myth has to come down in the first few turns to really be a threat.
- I've thought about running a maindeck sweeper just because a threat like Myth doesn't get blown up by it. Thoughts?

Thanks!

[surface33]

Sigarda looks almost an autowin if you cast it against jund. Another option I am running in my side is the new gideon.
The monster, for me myth realized has not enough power to see play here, I think the card fits better in slow decks that want to play at instant speed and just spend their mana in the last moment. Also it doesnt fit well with deathrite shaman. However, if you really want to play it you can run toxic deludge, the card is good in this deck.

[One With Nothing]

I play 2 Surgical Extraction in my sideboard for every variant I have tested. I wouldn't run Rest in Peace since it turns off your Cabal Therapies, Snapcaster Mages, and Deathrite Shamans. I found a card that could serve as a Jund and Shardless BUG trump in the sideboard, Sigarda, Host of the Herons. It is not susceptible to Punishing Fire, Liliana of the Veil, or Abrupt Decay and can attack over grounded creatures. Any thoughts on it?

I think running a big, non-blue Planeswalker is probably the best idea for this slot. It makes it harder to interact with on the opponent's side. I like the new Gideon in this role, though personally I have been testing Ob-Nixilis, Reignited. He performs well in these grindier matchups by letting you draw more cards Painful Truths style, or just comes in and nukes a Goyf. Plus if you do get him down on a stalled board, he's quick to ultimate and WILL win the game if that happens. Gideon is a nice trump to decks other than Shardless BUG, because they can amass enough creatures to attack him profitably. The other upside of Gideon is that you can pop him for an Emblem to take a dump on opposing Sulfur Elementals, Izzet Staticasters, Dread of Nights, and other such nonsense. Other contenders would include stuff like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, but I think 5 mana is already flirting with unplayability in most cases. I don't like Sigarda here because it's just so hard on the mana, but definitely see the appeal as it's a total bomb that takes over the board. Planeswalkers are great threats because they play nice with Monastery Mentor as well. There's even an argument for a BW Sorin (either one), but he doesn't do much by himself without some friends to tag along.

Berserking Now -- How are you liking the extra Surgical? It seems like a very reasonable inclusion, especially on MTGO where there is a lot of Snapcaster and graveyard action going on.

theMonster -- I like the idea of the Delver version, but I think you want to capitalize a bit more on the cheaper/free spells. Maybe going up another Gitaxian Probe? The problem with this deck in the Delver shell is that it's harder to take advantage of the Mentor to apply pressure early. You need a Deathrite to get it going faster. The advantage of playing the current slower build is that once you can stick a Mentor and cast a few spells to get value, even if they kill it, the Monks you make are enough to win the game by themselves a lot of times. I also notice a distinct lack of Daze in your list, so I would recommending shoeing in those as well. In addition, you might want to consider going to the all dual land manabase. While it does open you up to Blood Moon, you will always have the right mana, which is way more important for decks that establish themselves in the early game like what you're trying to do. Besides, 4-color Delver decks do a fine job without basics already, and they're not too far from what you're trying to accomplish. I would recommend cross-referencing those lists with the Mentor ones you find here until you can come to a happy medium. Cheers though, and happy brewing!

[Berserking Now]

The second Surgical Extraction has been performing well in my testing. The additional turn zero interaction for storm and reanimator style decks is beneficial and the four Cabal Therapies in my list give it plenty of support. I am still not a fan of Deathrite Shaman in this deck so the second one is a necessity for me.

[surface33]

i dont know how you can make this deck work without deathrite, the deck would be too slow. I am cure tly running 2 surgicals but considering swapping to 2 rip. When I played deathblade i had shamans and snapcaster but ran 2 rip and have good memories. For me jund loam and lands are just too bad to just play two surgicals.

[One With Nothing]

i dont know how you can make this deck work without deathrite, the deck would be too slow. I am cure tly running 2 surgicals but considering swapping to 2 rip. When I played deathblade i had shamans and snapcaster but ran 2 rip and have good memories. For me jund loam and lands are just too bad to just play two surgicals.

Right now I'm on a split of 1x Surgical Extraction and 1x Containment Priest. This has been sufficient thusfar, but is a little weak to any of the harder graveyard strategies (e.g. Punishing Abzan, Dredge, Lands). The problem is, that I don't think much harder graveyard hate can be played in Esper Mentor without hurting our deck too much. One and done options like Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus seem decent, especially the former. I have also done a bit of testing with running 2x Leyline of the Void. This one is VERY good, but you have to have a meta that is very grave-centric for it to work out okay. All that being said, I like that we at least have Deathrite to help mitigate everything. I don't see it being very possible to successfully play this deck at all without everyone's favorite one-mana Elf Planeswalker.

[surface33]

Right now I'm on a split of 1x Surgical Extraction and 1x Containment Priest. This has been sufficient thusfar, but is a little weak to any of the harder graveyard strategies (e.g. Punishing Abzan, Dredge, Lands). The problem is, that I don't think much harder graveyard hate can be played in Esper Mentor without hurting our deck too much. One and done options like Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus seem decent, especially the former. I have also done a bit of testing with running 2x Leyline of the Void. This one is VERY good, but you have to have a meta that is very grave-centric for it to work out okay. All that being said, I like that we at least have Deathrite to help mitigate everything. I don't see it being very possible to successfully play this deck at all without everyone's favorite one-mana Elf Planeswalker.

Leyline seems like an incredible card against loam and jund, i might try it out. Recently I have been testing a single vendilion maindeck but So far I dont like it, maybe the 4 ponder or 3 cabal would be better. I still feel the deck a bit slow, maybe I am not playing it the correct way but My mentors dont seem to make a bigger effect than sfm despite it being a 3cmc card. On the other hand liliana and toxic deludge are being incredible and helping me get to the late game with advantage against many decks.

Oh and I want to cut my second basic island for an utility land, was consdiering creeping tar pit, any other ideas?

[Megatron]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for Esper Mentor of the Delver variety or not. However, I went 3-0 tonight at my LGS with it and it felt really solid. List as follows:
4 delver
4 deathrite
4 mentor
2 gurmag angler
4 FoW
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 StP
2 thoughtseize
1 cabal therapy
1 spell pierce
8 fetches
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 scrubland
4 wasteland

First match: 2-0 vs dredge, his deck never threw up like it's supposed to. I had a very good thoughtseize game one, turn one (grabbed careful study) and he just never caught up. Game 2 all Bridges were on the bottom of his deck.
Second match: 2-1 vs elves, saved FoW for the Natural Order and got there with delver flipped game 1. Game 3, zealous persecution is the bomb dude, especially after they dump they're whole hand in 2 turns.
Third match: 2-0 vs tezzeret control, really good opening hands and draws in both games. I just had the counters to everything all match long.

I know 2 staples of the deck are Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy. However, in this build that runs stifle I feel like 8 cantrips is plenty. I'm not saying Probe wouldn't be better than stifle, but I feel stifle is necessary in a mana denial strategy. Now the Thoughtseize's were boss all night. Again, I understand that a late game Cabal Therapy is way better than Thoughtseize because Mentor and any tokens in play get pumped twice. But I really liked the outcome of being able to hand pick exactly what I needed to get rid of depending on my hand. Game 1 against Dredge for example, I would have never guessed careful study. That careful study getting snagged basically ended the game right there. Any opinions or thoughts are much appreciated.

[Serch]

Any opinions or thoughts are much appreciated.

What's your sideboard?

Don't u miss Painful Truths to draw more cards?

[Berserking Now]

I agree that Thoughtseize is the better choice in your list due to the lack of Gitaxian Probe and sacrifice fodder. I like how daze and stifle do not become dead in the late game by being able to be used to fuel mentor. Regarding the number of lands, did you feel it was enough to cast mentor consistently?

[Megatron]

I agree that Thoughtseize is the better choice in your list due to the lack of Gitaxian Probe and sacrifice fodder. I like how daze and stifle do not become dead in the late game by being able to be used to fuel mentor. Regarding the number of lands, did you feel it was enough to cast mentor consistently?

I never had any problems casting Mentor. I regularly got to three lands and had DRS in play most of the time. However, 2 of the 3 matchup's were against decks not playing wasteland. This is another reason Stifle is important in this shell. I will say there were times I couldn't just slam Mentor b/c I had to play control and needed my resources. Then there were other times it's the last card in hand and you have nothing else to do but play it and hope for the best. With 18 lands I feel safe saying you can get to three no problem but, you got to be able to protect them if need be b/c only one game out of 7 I got more in play than that. Keep in mind some of this is a result of pitching unwanted lands back with brainstorm or casting ponder then fetching the 2 dead cards away.

[Megatron]

What's your sideboard?

Don't u miss Painful Truths to draw more cards?

Sideboard as follows:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Pers.
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Murderous Cut
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council's Judgement
1 Disenchant

I don't know if this is "correct" or not. I need to play more events to figure out if this is best. I can say Zealous
Persecution is a must have. Other board sweepers seem bad like Supreme Verdict (too costly at four) and Toxic Deluge for anything more than 1 just wipes our board as well. Flusterstorm seems right even though I never sided it in, combo is on the rise I believe. Surgical is my favorite grave hate at the moment. I read earlier up the page the one guy was thinking rest in peace. I do not understand this. It shuts down DRS and all delve spells. Nihil Spellbomb is the only other grave hate I see playable. I guess Graffdigger's Cage is a thing. Some combination of Cage and the other mentioned could free up Containment Priest spots. Maybe just drop Priest all together for a third Mage and something else.

[Megatron]

Almost forgot to respond to the Painful Truths question. I didn't think at any point "I wish I could find a Painful Truths" but my spell pierce could be replaced easily for 1. I mean 9 counters 8 cantrips or 8 counters 9 cantrips. It's worth playing with for sure, so I'll try it. Truths is probably better here b/c of its synergy with Mentor. In a delver shell, Ponder is a must of 4. You don't want too many cantrips b/c there is going to be times you need gas and not more draw spells. Truths is a sorcery so casting it can leave you vulnerable, remember hitting 3 lands is right around where you top out. Also making a slight change to side board:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Murderous Cut
+1 EE
+1 Meddling Mage

[Serch]

And what about green mana source to sideboard decays? You have deathrite too..

[Megatron]

And what about green mana source to sideboard decays? You have deathrite too..
I don't think Abrupt Decay is warranted here. I mean the deck wants to do two things: disrupt your opponents mana base, and drop an early threat or two and protect them. Abrupt Decay is much more legitimate in Patrick Chapin's list. His list has a non-fragile mana base and he wants to control the board, not the opponents mana. Trying to stuff a forth color in my deck scares me greed wise.

[.dk]

not that i'm any kind of authority on Force of Will decks... but here is the list I've been playing the past few weeks:


4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Esper Charm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Unearth
1 Council's Judgment

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Disenchant
1 Serenity
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Misdirection
3 Meddling Mage
1 Esper Charm
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction


And something else in the sideboard, although I can't remember what off the top of my head. I could see the last slot being anything of 1 Swords to Plowshares, the 2nd Surgical, or Jace.

Anyway, I've been running this with pretty decent success in my local meta. I'm usually a bit more of a combo player, so playing fair is a bit odd for me...

So, a few comments on choices I've made: Esper Charm over Painful Truths. Esper Charm has a lot going for it - the fact that is an instant is insane as well as all of the modes are very relevant. The card draw, while a card less than Painful Truths, I believe is mitigated both by the fact that it is an instant as well as doesn't cost any life. I originally started with some of the Painful Truths lists and found that the life loss was actually a pretty big deal against some of the more aggressive decks (grixis delver and burn in particular). The discard mode of Esper Charm is also quite good against most combo decks as well. The third mode is quite good against Counterbalance as well as Blood Moon. This actually decreases your reliance on cards like Abrupt Decay out of the sideboard as you have a lot of access to Enchantment removal.

Because of this, I get to run Serenity out of the sideboard which is more powerful against Chalice decks than Abrupt Decay is. I've been considering running the second Serenity in place of the 3rd Meddling Mage, as Esper Charm already helps against Combo decks to an extent.

Unearth might be more cute than good, but it is pretty nutty with Snapcaster Mage, and is pretty good against Lightning Bolt decks that kill your Mentors. It's possible that this slot wants to be the 4th Swords, however.

With the amount of Fetchlands I'm running, I felt that having at least 1 Delve creature was appropriate - I chose Tasigur over Gurmag Angler just because of his activated ability. It may be wrong - it may even want to be Tombstalker to have a big flier to block with at times. Not sure on this one.

Likewise because of the amount of fetches, Sensei's Divining Top seemed pretty bonkers as well - it's already stellar with Mentor, and the searching capabilities with 10 fetches is great. It occupied a similar slot as Ponder, so I just split the difference there. I have won a couple games at this point going nuts with 2x SDT and Mentor on the table.

Decks I've had some trouble with so far - Burn (although they've been close), UB Tezzeret (hence the want for another Serenity), and fast combo (TES thus far, haven't played much against SnT or Reanimator) has been sketchy. The 2nd Serenity could help with the prison decks, and a 2nd Surgical for the combo decks. I haven't played against a lot of Delver to date, but the 4th Swords probably wants a slot in the 75 for those matchups as well. Maybe in place of the 2nd Council's Judgment in the sideboard.

Anyway, I'm guessing most of you have more experience than I do playing fair decks but wanted to give my perspectives and see if anyone had any feedback.

[Serch]

This is my actual decklist is like Megatron's list but with a few changes.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths


4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island


Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Serenity
3 Meddling Mage
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction



Too much lands, grixis and infect in my local meta so.. I decide to include a darkblast and a Tsabo's Web.

The results are fine, but sometimes delvers doesn't flip and i'm not sure to change them for 2 snapcasters or for another spells like gitaxian probe or more discard spell.

[Berserking Now]

@.dk I like the use of Esper Charm to reduce the reliance on Abrupt Decay in your list and I plan on testing them myself since lacks the unfavorable features of Painful Truths. In the past, I have tried SDT and it performed well but it was cut since Null Rod became a necessity for me. I prefer Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker over Tasigur since Karakas exists. 3 Swords to Plowshares seems too few against delver decks and I am a fan of a second Surgical Extraction in the sideboard. How is True-Name Nemesis performing? I was considering running one in my sideboard.

[.dk]

Yeah, the Unearth is probably a little cute and should be the 4th Swords. I haven't played against a lot of Delver (it's strangely absent from my local meta lately - just one match against Grixis).

What matches are you needing Null Rod in? While Miracles hasn't been stellar, I don't think it's awful either - particularly with Esper Charm.

And yeah, I get the reasoning with Tasigur as well, as I mentioned. His activated ability is really good, but maybe not worth the cost. Might try Tombstalker in that slot next.

TNN has been good in some matchups as a board stall, but overall hasn't been Stellar. That slot could easily become the 2nd Surgical, and then replace the Council's Judgment in the board with the 2nd Serenity.

[Berserking Now]

Miracles has been very unfavorable for me recently. I like having Null Rod for death and taxes, blade control variants, MUD, ANT, DDFT, and painter variants. SDT might be correct if Null Rod seems excessive when testing Esper Charm.

[.dk]

Miracles has been very unfavorable for me recently. I like having Null Rod for death and taxes, blade control variants, MUD, ANT, DDFT, and painter variants. SDT might be correct if Null Rod seems excessive when testing Esper Charm.

Interesting - I think Miracles is a close matchup and there are likely other ways to swing it in our favor as well. Esper Charm is a good start - but Disenchant and Serenity are also quite good. The amount of pressure you can put on an opponent with Sensei's Divining Top seems worth it to me to explore other options.

For Death and Taxes - I've been less worried about Aether Vial itself. 2x Zealous Persecution in the sideboard as well as discard from Esper Charm has been enough for me in that matchup. Granted, I've only played it once or twice though.

I haven't played against any stoneblade variants yet, so I'm not sure there.

MUD/Tezzeret - these are matchups where Serenity shines. Not sure Null Rod is necessary here.

I don't think Null Rod is good enough against DDFT, myself. At least when I play DDFT, that doesn't scare me too much - there are so many answers that DDFT can tutor for here, either with Doomsday itself or with Burning Wish.

ANT is reasonable - although the 2 Surgicals and Meddling Mages can do some major work here.

Painter... that's fair. Particularly if they are playing Goblin Welder, Swords, Serenity, and Disenchant can only take you so far.

[Dutch253]

Pretty sure this will be my first legacy deck. I haven't heard a lot of talk about it recently though so I don't have a very good starting point. What have you all been testing?


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[Megatron]

Hey all, been a little bit since I posted. I was having pretty good success with my delver variant until a 75 ish player tournament in my home state of Maryland. I went 1-3 and dropped. Got beat by Shardless BUG, Enchantress and Burn. My only win was against a budget RUG Delver list (no tarmogoyfs).
Some of the things that bothered me were;

Tasigur : the 4 power really let me down against opposing Tarmogoyfs in the BUG matchup. Not to mention (despite the popularity) I have always been told by more experienced players "cards that let your opponent make the decisions are usually bad." In my case they pick Stifle or something and I'm like...."greaaaaaat" I just payed 4 to return a stifle to my hand and I should have been doing something else better. The Esper charm idea is really exciting to me. I never thought of it! It's utility seems really good. And I could be casting that instead of using Tasigur's ability EOT. That said, Gurmag Angler is the delve critter of choice for me. Not that Tombstalker isn't better ( cause it is) but, the double black seems to be a deterrent for most. I will admit I haven't cast a Tombstalker since my BUG Delver days, so I can't hate on it.

Cantrips: okay, before everyone says wtf. I know it's the easiest way to pop out a lil mentor baby and refill your hand. However, too many times I needed gas and all I draw off my cantrips is MORE cantrips. Then MM gets burned, exiled or decayed and I got a brainstorm, ponder, stifle in hand. So I brainstorm and see Deathrite, land, cabal therapy. Is anyone else having this problem? Which brings me back to the Esper charm idea. I like it, it's different. Also doesn't hit me for three when I cast it. I feel like Unearth isn't too cute of a card. I definitely think a 4th STP should get priority over it but, I think a spot is warranted. Recursion is a good thing especially when it...yup you guessed it, cantrips!

I put together Patrick Chapin's list as a result of my bad tournament outing. Same thing, cantrips on top of cantrips. Which now has me thinking, what "good stuff" could we play in leu of cantrips. When I play against Miracles they take huge advantage of Sensei's Top's. Two Tops and a Mentor is ridiculous. What about cards that make tokens and just DO more. Zealous Persecution is bananas with mentor so why not main deck one. Unearth as a one of because my turn one Deathrite always gets nixed so I know I'll have a target. Abrupt Decay (if your heavy into splash green) or maybe a Smother main decked to go along with the 4 STP's. Esper charm at first glance seems to be the kinda "bullet" I'm looking for to kind of end some of the redundancy. I'd maybe cut stifles in a Delver shell (ponder is to important for flipping delivers to cut). Probably would cut Ponder in Chapin's list (brainstorm and probes already) maybe split Esper charm and painful truth's 1/1. Any thoughts?

[Megatron]

Went 0-3 tonight. Beginning to wonder how much of this is me and how much is the deck. Lost to Elves 1-2. This shouldn't happen. Not to a deck running FoW, STP and Zealous Persecution in the board. The one game I lost to a top deck Natural Order into Progenitous. Hand was FoW, Mentor, something else not blue. Lost to Grixis Delver 1-2. This match-up is dependent upon weather we can stabilize before being dealt enough damage that you die to a top deck bolt. Duh, I know. Just gotta respond to Young Pyro before he gets out of hand, Delver too. Lost to Storm 1-2. Kind of awkward match because Mentor doesn't hit till turn 3 let's say. You have to have FoW plus blue card in hand to go for him. By then I've already spent my discard trying to keep him off base and I'm holding counter magic. Doesn't seem like the best way to take advantage of Mentor.
I did try to change it up a bit. Used Chapin's list except -2 Painful Truths +2 Esper Charm (never drew one in 9 games!) -3 Probe +2 Liliana of the Viel +1 Unearth.

[TheArchitect]

Used Chapin's list except -2 Painful Truths +2 Esper Charm (never drew one in 9 games!) -3 Probe +2 Liliana of the Viel +1 Unearth.


Well there is your problem. The only reason Chapin made day 2 with that list is because he's Chapin. He could have made day 2 of the legacy GP with a sealed deck. That list was trying to do way too many things and it looked like a total mess. Deathrite looks perfect for this deck, but is a trap and makes the deck much worse. Lily is not too great in this deck because BB is hard to make with a good manabase and her +1 is pretty bad for a mentor deck. Cute stuff like unearth, or clique/karakas don't really have a place here either. There are more powerful and consistent things we could be doing in those slots.

I have not had much time for magic lately because of work/moving, but there are some upcoming legacy events that I will actually be able to make it too so I have been testing a bit more lately. I would recommended playing the list below. It is extremely consistent, has decent matchups against most of the top decks. Jund, burn and Lands are the only matchups it really struggles with but there are some SB changes that can help that.


19 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

3 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

That's the 57 cards I am sure about. Its the core of the deck, and you need a very good reason to cut any of those cards. The last 2 cards I am not 100% on yet:
20th Land (Cavern of souls or marsh flats)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tasigur/Angler
1 Esper Charm
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge


Sideboard:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Perish
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution

Thief, surgical and BEB could also change.

[mr_alex]

Hi!
Been playing Esper mentor for a long time, and this list has been really strong. As other people has said, Deathrite shaman is just wrong in this shell. It will try to put 1 more Bob into the deck because he´s sick while in play.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
3 Dark Confidant
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
2 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
1 Chill
1 Bitterblossom
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Disenchant
1 Notion Thief
1 Tsabo's Web
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish

[Dutch253]

Hi!
Been playing Esper mentor for a long time, and this list has been really strong. As other people has said, Deathrite shaman is just wrong in this shell. It will try to put 1 more Bob into the deck because he´s sick while in play.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
3 Dark Confidant
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Brainstorm
2 Lingering Souls
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
1 Chill
1 Bitterblossom
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Disenchant
1 Notion Thief
1 Tsabo's Web
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish

Why Toxic Deluge main? I'm stuck between this and Deathblade and am trying to learn all I can about both decks.


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[Patrunkenphat7]

@mr_alex: Surprised you don't like Deathrite in your deck or this archetype; you run a ton of 3-4 mana spells, especially when you consider Snapcaster in that number. Deathrite helps shore up all sorts of problems with this archetype like mana denial from tempo or GY interaction and faster clock against combo. I think your list will have a few too many hands where you aren't doing anything relevant until turn 3.

[TheArchitect]

@mr_alex: Surprised you don't like Deathrite in your deck or this archetype; you run a ton of 3-4 mana spells, especially when you consider Snapcaster in that number. Deathrite helps shore up all sorts of problems with this archetype like mana denial from tempo or GY interaction and faster clock against combo. I think your list will have a few too many hands where you aren't doing anything relevant until turn 3.

Let me explain why deathrite is bad:
- Deathrite is bad in this deck because while it is a very powerful 1 mana card, it is not a very powerful card. This deck can be quickly close games, but it is not a good aggressive deck. It works best by trading 1 for 1 in the early game and then drawing more cards and powering out better cards in the mid/late game. Deathrite does not help this plan.
- Otherwise, this deck does not care about opponent's removal. You never have to cast mentor into removal if you don't want and often even making 1 token before the mentor dies changes the course of the game. Deathrite just makes bolts and plows relevant.
- Deathrite makes the mana base way worse by demanding more black (and adding grean).
- This decks closest comparison is grixis control (not esper stoneblade) a lot of these reasons are the same reason you do not see deathrite in grixis control.

You are right about some lists being a bit overloaded on 3 drops. The deck always has tons of good things to do on turn 1, but this why I really like counterspell and strix over things like lingering souls. Both cards are really good turn 2, but don't get any worse as the game goes on.


Why Toxic Deluge main? I'm stuck between this and Deathblade and am trying to learn all I can about both decks.

For me, deluge might just be a remnant from when young pyromancer was the most played creature in legacy. With goyf and angler rising since dig was banned, it might not be good enough anymore. Its nice that it only costs 3 and can kill most creatures in the format without killing mentor (x=/<2). It is also nice to have a maindeck way to answer goose, mom or TNN.

[mr_alex]

@mr_alex: Surprised you don't like Deathrite in your deck or this archetype; you run a ton of 3-4 mana spells, especially when you consider Snapcaster in that number. Deathrite helps shore up all sorts of problems with this archetype like mana denial from tempo or GY interaction and faster clock against combo. I think your list will have a few too many hands where you aren't doing anything relevant until turn 3.

I always do stuff before turn 3. ponder to get the cards i still need, probe cabal to empty threats, mana open for spell pierce or stp.

[skyout]

So, I've played this deck a few times now and I'm finding that if I don't find a Monastery Mentor, I usually just die (with the rare exception of winning with Jace, The Mind Sculptor). I understand that the point of this deck is to clear a way for Monastery Mentor, followed by getting value out of your cantrips, discard, etc. However, if you don't find a Monastery Mentor you just end up durdling around for a while and then dying.

Do others have this problem, and if so what do you think is the solution. Do we play more threats (Gurmag Angler/Tasigur, the Golden Fang), play more ways of finding a Monastery Mentor, or something else?

For reference here's the list I'm playing:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

2 Baleful Strix
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Painful Truths
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard:

1 Null Rod
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

[TheArchitect]

Skyout, yeah that happens sometimes to me as well, mostly against delver decks, where we SHOULD have way better draws after you both survive into the late game but sometimes they just get exactly what they need and we draw cantrips into cantrips into lands/discard, etc. I think playing 1-2 Angler/Tasigur is totally fine and is something I go back and forth on. Sorin, Clique, bitterblossoms and even stoneforge are options too that I tried and were not too bad, but I think the delve creatures are probably better.

How have you been liking painful truths? I've been trying it as a 1 of and it has not been too impressive. There have been a few times were the life loss made it uncastable but in grindy games its obviously good. Everytime I drew it, I asked, would this be better if it was a snapcaster? The answer was usually yes. Snapcaster + brainstorm is still one of the best ways to get immediate card advantage in legacy. And strix is still the best card in the deck against delver decks.

Maybe, try cutting 2 pierce for 2 delve creatures and see how it goes.

[Megatron]

I sleeved up your deck list. I'll be trying it Wednesday night at LGS.

[Megatron]

I didn't mean to underline that statement. Smh

[Dutch253]

Would not playing Deathrite Shaman make the deck any better or the manabase any more consistent? I'm getting closer to having the deck completed just not sure what version I should go with for my first try.

[btm10]

Would not playing Deathrite Shaman make the deck any better or the manabase any more consistent? I'm getting closer to having the deck completed just not sure what version I should go with for my first try.

TheArchitect seems to feel very strongly that the answer is "yes". Team UltraPro and Chapin would say "no". I lean toward "no", but will add the caveat that I haven't played the deck much since early December. I definitely disagree that Deathrite isn't powerful enough, and think that he plays very well with Mentor.

[Dutch253]

TheArchitect seems to feel very strongly that the answer is "yes". Team UltraPro and Chapin would say "no". I lean toward "no", but will add the caveat that I haven't played the deck much since early December. I definitely disagree that Deathrite isn't powerful enough, and think that he plays very well with Mentor.

I'm having a very tough time justifying building this deck. Mentor itself looks so fun but I've heard so many people (pros included) say it's just not good. They've given many reasons including a shaky manabase. Would Grixis pyromancer just be a better choice?


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[Megatron]

I'm having a very tough time justifying building this deck. Mentor itself looks so fun but I've heard so many people (pros included) say it's just not good. They've given many reasons including a shaky manabase. Would Grixis pyromancer just be a better choice?


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We'll I've been getting my ass kicked my Grixis Pyromancer. They are close games but, I haven't had any success lately. I lost to elves too last night. Games three was my fault though. I kept a hand of STP, FoW, Snapcaster and the rest lands. I REALLY thought I'd draw into gas but didn't and died because of it. I will say I want to play test more without Deathrite, to be fair. I'm definitely going to 19 lands though, I hate having a Mentor in play late game and just top deck land after land.

[TheArchitect]

We'll I've been getting my ass kicked my Grixis Pyromancer. They are close games but, I haven't had any success lately. I lost to elves too last night. Games three was my fault though. I kept a hand of STP, FoW, Snapcaster and the rest lands. I REALLY thought I'd draw into gas but didn't and died because of it. I will say I want to play test more without Deathrite, to be fair. I'm definitely going to 19 lands though, I hate having a Mentor in play late game and just top deck land after land.

Any hand with snapcaster, stp and lands is a keep against elves. You are more likely to mull into oblivion than get a better hand. Sometimes variance is just going to happen and you won't draw anything else good.

Grixis pyromancer is about a 50-50 matchup in my experience. It really comes down to who draws more value; snapcaster, kologons command, painful truths, therapy, pyro/mentor, etc. While low powered cards that can be ignored or outclassed are bad: deathrite, Pierce, etc.

I've tested this archetype a lot, in different configurations and found that 19 lands (no utility lands), 12+ cantrips with no Deathrite is very consistent. Sure Deathrite, tropical island or karakas let you do some powerful things, but they are very high variance cards and will cost you games.

If you want a karakas, cavern of souls, tarpit, or wasteland adding it as the 20th land is also not bad, but don't cut to 18 real lands for it.

[Megatron]

Yea I played legacy tonight in between standard rounds. 19 lands seems fine. Switched to Tasigur instead of Gurmag and added a Murderous Cut and Unearth. Never saw the Unearth but the Murderous Cut was pretty good as well as Tasigur. His ability didn't come into play but the 1 cmc cheaper than Gurmag did!

[TnA_Will]

Finally got some testing in and WOW am I happy with the changes and tweeks to my build! I am actually able with very little disruption if any at all to outrace infect in certain situations and the manabase seems to be what a huge part of my problem was. Learning how to play deathrite was another part of it (which ties back to manabase due to fetches). Here is my updated list and it seems to be running well and has remained very versatile.

Spells
3x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Myth Realized

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
3x Monastary Mentor
2x True-Name Nemisis

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains

Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Force of Will


Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace

[Berserking Now]

The standstill list looks good. I would be reluctant to go to 3 Force of Will with the influx of chalices in the meta. Based on your sideboard, I would guess lands variants are absent in your meta.

On a different note, has anyone tested against the eldrazi stompy decks yet? My results so far with a list similar to TheArchitect's have been somewhat grim.

[TheArchitect]

On a different note, has anyone tested against the eldrazi stompy decks yet? My results so far with a list similar to TheArchitect's have been somewhat grim.

I have run into it a few times. It is indeed a bad matchup. Baleful strix and mentor are really good against them, but the rest of our deck is not so great. Jace is pretty bad because of Reality Smasher and their spawn tokens. Deluge is bad because X usually has to be 5 or more. Countermagic is usually bad because of their 4 cavern. UWB has the least effective answers against chalice. Engineered explosives is probably the best card to fight chalice decks, but is not a card I really like much in this deck.


I beat them a couple times, and it was always when I answered their chalice and then just had an early mentor + lots of removal. Germag angler and removal that doesn't cost 1 might help improve the matchup, but we don't have access to many very powerful hate cards without seriously changing the deck.

[Berserking Now]

I played some preboard games against Barook's GW Eldrazi Ramp 2.0 to develop a sideboard plan against that variant. My last 3 slots were Baleful Strix, Gurmag Angler, and Council's Judgment. The counterspells were atrocious against them. Force of Will was needed to be aggressive against them and to not lose to chalice. Jace was surprisingly useful since due Jace's interaction with Cabal Therapy and stalling for time. The games I won against them involved mentor taking over and having better hands and draws. The games I lost involved chalice resolving, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher getting there, or variance favoring them. Out of curiosity, how did you board against the deck in general?

[TheArchitect]

I played some preboard games against Barook's GW Eldrazi Ramp 2.0 to develop a sideboard plan against that variant. My last 3 slots were Baleful Strix, Gurmag Angler, and Council's Judgment. The counterspells were atrocious against them. Force of Will was needed to be aggressive against them and to not lose to chalice. Jace was surprisingly useful since due Jace's interaction with Cabal Therapy and stalling for time. The games I won against them involved mentor taking over and having better hands and draws. The games I lost involved chalice resolving, Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher getting there, or variance favoring them. Out of curiosity, how did you board against the deck in general?

I actually just ran into Eldrazi again on cockatrice, I lost 2-1. The game I won involved turn 2 strix, turn 3 mentor. I lost 1 game to chalice + trinosphere and 1 game to fast Reality smasher beats.


-2 counterspell
-4 ponder
+1 disenchant
+1 Council's judgment
+3 Meddling mages
+1 Rod

For boarding, we have a lot of bad cards maindeck, and not many good cards in the SB. So understand, I am not bring in meddling mage or rod because they are particularly good. They are just better than the MD cards. Probe, therapy and FoW are also fine to trim, but ponder is probably the worst of the "gets hozed by taxing effects" spells that we play.

[Megatron]

I haven't ran into this Eldrazi deck yet. I can say I'm getting used to piloting this deck without Deathrite Shaman though. Went 2-1 earlier this week. There are 2 Elves players in my local so I'm pretty comfortable now in that match up. Name Glimpse of Nature on your Therapy and FoW it or Natural Order and we should win every time. Finally beat Grixis Pyro, it helped I didn't punt during the match. I kind of want to talk about side boarding and what I'm doing versus what you all are doing. So for my 2 more popular match ups this is what Ive been doing;
The 3 "flex spots" I'm trying ATM are Unearth, Tasigur and Toxic Deluge
Elves: -3 Baleful Strix, -1 Tasigur, -1 Unearth
+2 Containment Priest, +2 Zealous Persecution +1 Vendilion Clique

Grixis Pyromancer: -4 Force of Will
+1 Flusterstorm, +2 Zealous Persecution, +1 Misdirection

I played against Affinity for the first time with this deck yesterday and realized it is a tough hill to climb. Hence, the reason for the Toxic Deluge main instead of the Murderous Cut main (sometimes you want to cast that Cut early and you only have 2 cards in your graveyard). My current sideboard is as follows:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Pithing Needles
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgement
1 Flusterstorm

What are some of your guys sideboards? And your reasoning behind those cards.
@The Architect , I haven't come across a Null Rod yet but when I do I would probably split with Needle 1/1

[Dutch253]

Finally got some testing in and WOW am I happy with the changes and tweeks to my build! I am actually able with very little disruption if any at all to outrace infect in certain situations and the manabase seems to be what a huge part of my problem was. Learning how to play deathrite was another part of it (which ties back to manabase due to fetches). Here is my updated list and it seems to be running well and has remained very versatile.

Spells
3x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Myth Realized

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
3x Monastary Mentor
2x True-Name Nemisis

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains

Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Force of Will


Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace

How is Myth Realized working out for you? Love that card!


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[TnA_Will]

How is Myth Realized working out for you? Love that card!

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Amazing!!!! in my build its on par if not better than goyf most of the time! I am getting a 5/5 myth very reliably and not having to "force" any plays to do so.

Also to the person asking about Lands and Eldrazi. My lands match up is close. Honestly most of the time I either end up winning or we end up in a draw. I think this is so for a couple reasons. 1st being I played Lands myself for 3 years or so and I know how the deck works and how it funcitons very well. Secondly, because they have changed the list to allow theirselves to be hated out in a lot of instances. but if the meta was heavy lands I would up the Rest in Peace count to 2. The reason why I'm favorable against them is I board in 3x E. Tutor's, 1x Bitter Blossom, 1x Rest in peace and 1x Humility, along with the 4x main deck Shawman's to start with. I simply try and "turn off" their win con by either breaking parody early enough with bitter blossom (Thank God the Fae fly!!!) or land a Humility and not have to worry about a 1/1 marrit lage. The early game I am trying to use deathrites to keep the yard empty of life's, punishing fires, and waste lands. If the lands player is bad/unlucky enough to put a chasm in the board I will hit it immediately!!! most lands players I've seen, undervalue Glacial and have no idea how powerful it really is if used properly!

I am really wanting to play against the Eldrazi deck because I think I am pretty good against it as well, but need to make sure. Again I am going to rely on Humilty to do real work in that match up! If Eldrazi gets to crazy popular I may change up my sideboard to run a singleton Ensaring Bridge or something. I really like Humility as a solid answer in my deck for the major reasons of it nerfing so many creatures that are really popular right now, it gets around trinisphere and chalice and finally (most importantly) it doesn't negatively impact my deck!! I have to stay away from a mentor kill, but Myth Realized, Mishra Factories, and Creeping Tar Pit are all unaffected by Humility!!

[TheArchitect]

How is Myth Realized working out for you? Love that card!

I also tried myth realized at one point. It was very hit or miss. Some games, it was nuts and took over games as a 6/6 or bigger without any effort. In other games it was a terrible top deck, I played it turn 1 and slowly built it up waiting to attack around turn 4-5 only to have it immediately plowed, revokered or decayed.


It is a card I would consider again. It also plays really nice with sweepers, unlike the rest of our deck which is a plus.

[TnA_Will]

I also tried myth realized at one point. It was very hit or miss. Some games, it was nuts and took over games as a 6/6 or bigger without any effort. In other games it was a terrible top deck, I played it turn 1 and slowly built it up waiting to attack around turn 4-5 only to have it immediately plowed, revokered or decayed.


It is a card I would consider again. It also plays really nice with sweepers, unlike the rest of our deck which is a plus.

I think the biggest plus for me is it plays EXTREMELY well with 4x standstills.... Actually it and Deathrite play well with standstill. I'm not sure if other versions of the mentor deck would really see the benefits I do out of myth. A nuts draw of turn 1 shawman, turn 2 myth + standstill and its an automatic draw 3 cards for me. Really anytime I get a myth under standstill its a draw 3 cards for me because I can actually start using the 2W: ability underneath of standstill and force them to break it or die to the threat.

[Barachai]

Hey, I'm building my first truly "blue" deck and was thinking of building this one cause it seems fun! :smile:

How does this list look? Haven't started thinking about the sideboard yet

3 sea
3 tundra
1 Cavern of souls
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
1 academy ruins

2 jace the mind sculptor
4 monastery mentor
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix

2 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 cabal therapy
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
1 counterspell

4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

[Svyelunite]

I won't claim to be a master of this deck, but I gave a version a test run in the MTG Training Grounds linked video. Lemme know what you all think :)

https://youtu.be/2zpbHAOXdKc

[TnA_Will]

I won't claim to be a master of this deck, but I gave a version a test run in the MTG Training Grounds linked video. Lemme know what you all think :)

https://youtu.be/2zpbHAOXdKc

wow man, haven't seen you ever sling this deck! I'm the guy that goes to tournies with Aaron (the other Infect player you've talked to on several occassions). Crazy to see you using mentor and not infecting ppl like crazy! Great video!

[anwei]

I played TnA_Will's list at a small local thing, went 3-0-1 (played Elves, Painter, Team America, and Stoneblade), and had a blast. I cut a TNN for a JTMS and the 4th Factory for an Island maindeck, and ran a sideboard of:

2 Flusterstorm
1 FoW
1 Meddling Mage
1 E Tutor
1 RiP
1 Canonist
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Clique
1 Verdict
2 Zealous Persecution

The board was definitely not ideal: I had to build this quite quickly before running out the door, and didn't have Seal of Cleansing handy, which led to the quick realization that I had no outs to arbitrary permanents (I'd should have at least jammed an EE or Council's Judgment), and had to suffer Needle, Blood Moon, and E Bridge at different points.

Building for the assorted prowess triggers and Standstill seem at odds in the abstract, but (fascinatingly) have a lot of synergy with the same cards. Myth Realized under Standstill is insane, and SDT is fantastic with either side of the deck.

I had quite a hard time sideboarding, as many of the "fair" cards are still quite strong against combo, and the many synergies also lead to semi-circumstancial cards that are hard to cut without hurting other cards, and so on.

Having only played 4 matches, here are a couple thoughts and directions I might try to go. Again, difficultly, any cuts are removing things which can be insane in the deck in particular board states, but might also get in the way of the speed the deck can have or be bad top decks:
- Trim some numbers on cards which are circumstantially powerful but can be really underpowered in other situations, particularly the 4th Myth Realized, Standstill, Cabal Therapy, and maybe Probe. Unusually, some of those (Myth/Therapy especially) are actually fine in multiples (although Myth activations can become taxing), but they can certainly have a lower floor than other cards, and can set up lousy anti-synergies (Mentor+Standstill, missing on Therapy without Probe/Mentor around).
- Add 3rd SDT, and get at least 1 counterbalance in the board (with tutors), or maybe several. Top is insane with, like, everything in the deck. With 7 prowess guys, it's a great aggro card. In the long game or under Standstill, the repeated selection is difficult to beat.
- I'd like a couple other maindeck counters to make Standstill a more meaningful response to TNN, unfair decks, etc. Pierce, Snare, or Counterspell all have pros and cons.
- I went up to 2 basics (at the cost of the 5th manland) and 3 feels doable, probably Swamp for 3rd U Sea. While the black needs of the deck are lower, being able to fetch T1 Swamp->DRS and hitting 3 mana on t2 through Wasteland is important, and the color requirements are mostly mild.
- I might try a maindeck Council's Judgment and (keep) JTMS as cards which are very high power-level in some match-ups and quite weak in others, as easier to cut in sideboarding. (Obviously I don't want to go looking for cards that are bad in unfair matches, but having very few may mean too many flat power-level cards without more cards that are particularly good in certain fair matches. Jace pushes the level more than TNN against Miracles.)

This also makes me more interested in trying the DRS/Mentor/Counterbalance deck that the Brainstorm Show was testing (http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/brief-brainstorms/brief-brainstorm-004-update-on-countertop-dementor/), and to try a straight UW (more traditional) Landstill build with Myth Realized.

[Dutch253]

Finally got some testing in and WOW am I happy with the changes and tweeks to my build! I am actually able with very little disruption if any at all to outrace infect in certain situations and the manabase seems to be what a huge part of my problem was. Learning how to play deathrite was another part of it (which ties back to manabase due to fetches). Here is my updated list and it seems to be running well and has remained very versatile.

Spells
3x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
2x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Myth Realized

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
3x Monastary Mentor
2x True-Name Nemisis

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains

Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Force of Will


Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace

I'm actually curious about Standstill in this list. You're playing Monastery Mentor that rewards you for playing non creature spells but also playing 4 Standstill that basically prohibits you from playing non creature spells while its on the field?

[anwei]

I'm actually curious about Standstill in this list. You're playing Monastery Mentor that rewards you for playing non creature spells but also playing 4 Standstill that basically prohibits you from playing non creature spells while its on the field?

I'm sure OP has a better/fuller answer, but:
(1) They're obviously not usually synergistic unless you cast Standstill on a board of monk tokens (=win-more),
(2) They don't really clash problematically. If I was holding mentor with standstill out, then, assuming I cast it for a good reason, I'm quite happy to have more ammo and mana when they break it. If I'm holding standstill with mentor out, I'd usually prefer to have something else in hand, but a Mentor in play is pretty dang solid.
(3) They both play very well with a lot of the same cards.

[TnA_Will]

I'm sure OP has a better/fuller answer, but:
(1) They're obviously not usually synergistic unless you cast Standstill on a board of monk tokens (=win-more),
(2) They don't really clash problematically. If I was holding mentor with standstill out, then, assuming I cast it for a good reason, I'm quite happy to have more ammo and mana when they break it. If I'm holding standstill with mentor out, I'd usually prefer to have something else in hand, but a Mentor in play is pretty dang solid.
(3) They both play very well with a lot of the same cards.

All good/great points and pretty much right on the money with my thinking. To expand on it a little more, basically standstill is used as a replentish card (blue Painfull Truths) and doubles as an early preasure card with Myth Realized/factories. Also in mid to late game situations having deathrites in the deck it makes Standstills a non-dead card if drawn mid/late game with a deathrite or two in play. The Mentor in my build is only there as a kill card. I cast it, expecting to win the game the next turn. Either because I have enough in the grave yard, or I have refulled with a standstill. Hope that makes sense?

[Dutch253]

All good/great points and pretty much right on the money with my thinking. To expand on it a little more, basically standstill is used as a replentish card (blue Painfull Truths) and doubles as an early preasure card with Myth Realized/factories. Also in mid to late game situations having deathrites in the deck it makes Standstills a non-dead card if drawn mid/late game with a deathrite or two in play. The Mentor in my build is only there as a kill card. I cast it, expecting to win the game the next turn. Either because I have enough in the grave yard, or I have refulled with a standstill. Hope that makes sense?

Sure does, thanks for the explanation. I'm going to start testing this online before going ahead and building it in paper!

[anwei]

I didn't post this above, but as a DRS+Probe+Therapy+Cantrip deck, it could be wrong to run <4 Mentors, any potential clashes aside.
Did you find 4 too clunky?

[Bosque]

Since I appear have all the cards for this, is there any consensus on a stock list to start with if I wanted to give this a whirl?

[Berserking Now]

The Architect's list on the previous page is solid based on experience and is easy to adjust based on your meta with the 3 flex slots. I haven't tested TnA_Will's standstill list yet but it looks solid on paper.

[Diogo37]

I was looking for some build that I like and finally found, I will begin testing and then come up with a report

Standstill + Myth is sweet

Sorry for my bad english

[TnA_Will]

I didn't post this above, but as a DRS+Probe+Therapy+Cantrip deck, it could be wrong to run <4 Mentors, any potential clashes aside.
Did you find 4 too clunky?

In my build yes I did find it to clunky. I really only want to use mentor when I'm ready to win the game. I really would like to see DRS's Myth's or even TNN over Mentor until turn 4 or 5 when I'm trying to win. Depending on how your list is set up I can see 4 mentor's being fine but its something that the deck would have to cater to and mine currently doesn't.

[anwei]

So, would you like to be running 3rd sdt, more counters, snapcaster, and/or jtms? Do you have a 61st card list? What would your most likely cuts be?

[TnA_Will]

So, would you like to be running 3rd sdt, more counters, snapcaster, and/or jtms? Do you have a 61st card list? What would your most likely cuts be?

Depending on the meta, I could see a 3rd top ( I just cut a 3rd top a week or so ago, and more counters) I wanted to go more of an aggro/aggressive build so I chose to run 4 therapies, 4x myths and 4 probes. If I decided to go more control my changes would be bringing in the 4th force, bring in 3rd top, bring in probably 2 counter balances and probably move from TNN and to Clique. So if I were to build it more controlish I would run something like this (warning I didn't manipulate the mana base in this build, I probably would if I were to build it):

Spells
4x Force of Will
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Cabal Therapy
3x sensei's divining top
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
3x Myth Realized
2x counter balance

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shawman
2x Monastary Mentor
2x V Clique (or 2x snap casters, don't really like JTMS in this build, potentially running 1 JTMS and 1 Clique would make sense here)

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Marsh Flats
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar pit
1x Plains

Sidboard:
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Flusterstorm
1x V. Clique
1x Karakas
3x E. Tutor
1x BitterBlossom
2x Ethersworn Canonist


Flex board slots ( completely dependant on the meta.... usually I like to include humility due to my Myth's and Factories being unaffected. But if Emarkul isn't running around in the meta a lot then there really isn't as much of a need for this card.)
1x Elspeth knight-errant
2x Containment Priest
2x seal of cleansing
1x Chill
1x Humility
1x Rest in Peace

[Douif]

Hello,

Are there people still playing esper mentor right now ?

I'm essentially a storm player but I'd like to try to grind out my opponents with midrange/control strategies and esper mentor seems fun. But, I'm wondering about his matchup against the top tier atm. Eldrazi looks very unfavorable and esper mentor does not have secret tech like From the Ashes, Price of Progress or Moat (except if your're playing Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom) in order to fight the new spaghetti invasion. Moreover, the other top tiers, Miracles and Lands, looks unfavorable.
This deck is interesting but it looks like you are less control than Miracles and a worse grinder than Shardless.


Am I wrong about those statements ?

[TnA_Will]

Hello,

Are there people still playing esper mentor right now ?

I'm essentially a storm player but I'd like to try to grind out my opponents with midrange/control strategies and esper mentor seems fun. But, I'm wondering about his matchup against the top tier atm. Eldrazi looks very unfavorable and esper mentor does not have secret tech like From the Ashes, Price of Progress or Moat (except if your're playing Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom) in order to fight the new spaghetti invasion. Moreover, the other top tiers, Miracles and Lands, looks unfavorable.
This deck is interesting but it looks like you are less control than Miracles and a worse grinder than Shardless.


Am I wrong about those statements ?

I would tend to agree for the more traditional builds of Esper Mentor. Not sure what they are packing as far as removal for Eldrazi goes. I need to get in more playtesting to feel really good about my match up but for me its Bitter Blossom, and Humility as solid answers to the Eldrazi deck.

[Minniehajj]

Hello,

Are there people still playing esper mentor right now ?

I'm essentially a storm player but I'd like to try to grind out my opponents with midrange/control strategies and esper mentor seems fun. But, I'm wondering about his matchup against the top tier atm. Eldrazi looks very unfavorable and esper mentor does not have secret tech like From the Ashes, Price of Progress or Moat (except if your're playing Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom) in order to fight the new spaghetti invasion. Moreover, the other top tiers, Miracles and Lands, looks unfavorable.
This deck is interesting but it looks like you are less control than Miracles and a worse grinder than Shardless.


Am I wrong about those statements ?

Unfortunately, esper mentor as a whole is basically what you just said, less controlly than miracles, less good at going long than shardless, and both of these matchups are overall really poor for the deck. What this deck has over the other two, however, is that the deck can be slightly more aggressive than both, but I don't think the metagame at this point in time is at a place where an aggressive shell can prosper well. I've stopped playing the deck for quite sometime, moving back to my main archetype, but it'll still be in the back of my mind.

[TheArchitect]

Hello,

Are there people still playing esper mentor right now ?

I'm essentially a storm player but I'd like to try to grind out my opponents with midrange/control strategies and esper mentor seems fun. But, I'm wondering about his matchup against the top tier atm. Eldrazi looks very unfavorable and esper mentor does not have secret tech like From the Ashes, Price of Progress or Moat (except if your're playing Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom) in order to fight the new spaghetti invasion. Moreover, the other top tiers, Miracles and Lands, looks unfavorable.
This deck is interesting but it looks like you are less control than Miracles and a worse grinder than Shardless.


Am I wrong about those statements ?

This is fairly accurate at the moment. Esper Mentor does not seem as good in the current meta as it was pre-eldrazi. I still think its a better deck than esper stoneblade, and probably grixis control though.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think this deck is fantastic right now, but I also think that perception depends entirely on your list. I think playing both CounterTop and Deathrite is important for beating a diverse meta.

Here is my list:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-esper-mentor-25073#online

[dsck]

I think this deck is fantastic right now, but I also think that perception depends entirely on your list. I think playing both CounterTop and Deathrite is important for beating a diverse meta.

Here is my list:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-esper-mentor-25073#online

Have you considered Dark Confidants? Aren't Cabal Therapies better post board than Thoughtseizes when you get that sweet extra value with Mentors?

[Patrunkenphat7]

Have you considered Dark Confidants? Aren't Cabal Therapies better post board than Thoughtseizes when you get that sweet extra value with Mentors?

Confidant would be interesting if I had the slots, but CounterTop does a good job of accruing value over the course of the game and is good against so many strategies. Counterbalance is the single best card in the deck against Miracles, Storm, Burn, and a variety of other popular decks. I like Thoughtseize over Therapy in the SB because I'm not trying to assemble a combo of Mentor + discard; I'm just using the discard on turn 1 and maybe Snapcaster it back on turn 3 to take the best card out of a combo player's hand.

[Arsenal]

I've been running this at my LGS and pretty impressed by it. I'm on Chapin's list, but with minor changes as to reduce curve. Very impressed at how well it can grind with the best of them, although I always feel about 1-2 spot removal spells short in g1. Anyone else have removal issues g1?

[jaska]

Esper Mentor list with CounterTop was featured on Starcity games a few days back.

So the question is, are there any others who've tested the Dementor (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32721_Daily-Digest-Is-This-Better-Than-Miracles.html) list? It's a deck I've been thinking of running at the GP Prague. So far the list has felt pretty solid. It has game against a wide variety of lists and that's what I'm looking for. Also, you can fool people into thinking you're Miracles which can help sometimes.

[Arsenal]

Reading Chapin's article, he mentioned that Engineered Explosives was one of his sb cards that he strongly wanted to run maindeck. This was pre-Eldrazi, and I think EE maindeck makes perfect sense in today's meta. Having a maindeck answer to Chalice @ 1 while also serving as more removal; this deck has 4 StP + 1 Council's Judgment, that's very skimpy imo. He also mentioned that although sb Notion Thief didn't perform the blowouts he hoped, it wasn't necessarily wrong and that he needed more testing to see if it warranted a slot. With the top tier as it is, I feel good about running sb Notion Thief. This is what I'm running currently:

MAIN

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Monastery Mentor

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Council’s Judgment
2 Painful Truths
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SIDE

1 Null Rod
2 Duress
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Notion Thief
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Containment Priest

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, a DeathBlade player here who's interested in this archetype. I've been lurking in this thread for a while now and have some questions:

Shaman/CounterTop versions

- The mana seems really bad. Most lists I've seen run about 6 lands that can't cast Deathrite Shaman. With Counterbalance requiring :u::u: and Shaman needing :b:, have you guys found running four basics and three Tundras to be problematic? Sure, it's nice to be impervious to Wasteland, but is that at the expense of casting your cards on time?

Non-Shaman versions

- Do you find that you draw too little action too often? I've seen lists that run 12 cantrips, and that seems excessive and reliant on having Mentor out. And do you miss the versatility of a card like Shaman?

- Four Snapcaster Mages seems like a lot. Is it?

Both versions

- No love for Bob? Dark Confidant seems like everything the deck wants: it's on curve; it sucks up removal to clear the way for Monastery Mentor; if it lives, it accrues card advantage; and it attacks, which is in keeping with the midrange/more aggressive deck strategy. I think even running two copies would go a long way.

TnA_Will, are you still running your Standstill list? If so, how has it been treating you?

Thanks, y'all!

[Arsenal]

In my build, I'm leaning hard on Painful Truths + a billion cantrips. Not coincidentally, those spells are insane with an on-board Mentor. Deck space is tight, I don't know what I'd cut or if Bob is even necessary.

[TheArchitect]

@Aresenal: I like your list a lot. I still don't like deathrite, but if I had to play a deathrite list, mine would be very close to yours. Have you tried Anguished Unmaking over CJ? So far in my testing umaking has been VERY good.


Hey, y'all, a DeathBlade player here who's interested in this archetype. I've been lurking in this thread for a while now and have some questions:

Shaman/CounterTop versions

- The mana seems really bad. Most lists I've seen run about 6 lands that can't cast Deathrite Shaman. With Counterbalance requiring :u::u: and Shaman needing :b:, have you guys found running four basics and three Tundras to be problematic? Sure, it's nice to be impervious to Wasteland, but is that at the expense of casting your cards on time?

Non-Shaman versions

- Do you find that you draw too little action too often? I've seen lists that run 12 cantrips, and that seems excessive and reliant on having Mentor out. And do you miss the versatility of a card like Shaman?

- Four Snapcaster Mages seems like a lot. Is it?

Both versions

- No love for Bob? Dark Confidant seems like everything the deck wants: it's on curve; it sucks up removal to clear the way for Monastery Mentor; if it lives, it accrues card advantage; and it attacks, which is in keeping with the midrange/more aggressive deck strategy. I think even running two copies would go a long way.

TnA_Will, are you still running your Standstill list? If so, how has it been treating you?

Thanks, y'all!

Deathrite does indeed make the mana much worse. Contrary to what common sense might tell you, this 1 drop mana dork often makes casting your spells harder. This problem, and the way deathrite pushes the deck towards more aggression and less towards late game, are the reasons I think he is bad for this archetype.

For non-shaman versions, it depends how grindy the meta is, but I find that 3 snaps, 3 strix, 4 therapy and 3 jace/visions provide plenty of card advantage at all stages of the game. Strix is nuts right now by the way, I would sooner play 4 in this deck than play 2. I think 4 snapcasters would be fine, but this deck is already running quiet high on 3+ drops, so more 2 drops would be preferred.

Bob is bad because one of the advantages of this deck, over something like stoneblade, is you can blank removal with little effort. With 8 therapy/probe you know your opponents hand by turn 3 in the vast majority of your games. If their hand is full of removal, they probably have little pressure and you can wait and cast mentor later after you amass some counters, or therapies. If their hand is light on removal you cast mentor, and play a bunch of instants in response and then kill them wild nacatl tokens. If they have no removal, you play mentor, flood the board and win.

Bob could actually be a decent SB card against stuff like miracles or combo, but would be much stronger in an aggressive deck, and does not play well in this shell vs most decks.

[theMonster]

Thanks for your insights, TheArchitect. I have no reps with these lists, so I've got a lot of questions about the various versions.

So basically the game plan is to bob and weave and disrupt the opponent for a bit, then slam Mentor when the coast is clear and proceed to smash, right?

Bob seems like it would make more sense in a Deathrite deck because you put on more pressure early and force the opponent to have more answers.

Also, to Painful Truths or not? I've seen lists with 0-2 copies. And are you running Sensei's Divining Tops and/or Counterbalances? The former seems like a natural fit, but I'm not sure if during the course of a game you'd have spare mana to spin, given how often you're casting cantrips.

Thanks again!

[Arsenal]

I've been nothing but impressed by Deathrite in this deck. Not only does it give you g1 advantage vs decks that lean on their graveyard, but it allows us to have a late game plan that doesn't involve Mentor or Jace. The life gain is verrry relevant in long grinders, even moreso than the life drain imo, as we've dealt ourselves a significant amount of dmg early game with G Probe and P Truths. I really don't have any complaints about Deathrite and think he slots in very well in this deck; on curve, mana fixer, long game plan, allows for busted plays like t2 mentor while holding Force.

I haven't tested Anguished Unmaking. It's appealing, but I'm weary of another card that deals me dmg and it can't hit stuff where "target" matters (Mom, TNN, etc).

[Douif]

I'm testing this 75 right now :

Main :

2 Baleful Strix
(http://deckbox.org/mtg/Baleful Strix)2 Snapcaster Mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster Mage)
4 Monastery Mentor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Monastery Mentor)

4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
4 Sword to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords to Plowshares)
4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will)
2 Counterspell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)
2 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell Snare)

4 Cabal Therapy (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cabal Therapy)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gitaxian Probe)
4 Ponder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ponder)
2 Lingering Souls (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lingering Souls)

2 Jace, the mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace, the mind Sculptor)
1 Liliana of the Veil (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana of the Veil)

4 Polluted Delta (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Polluted Delta)
4 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded Strand)
1 Marsh Flats (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Marsh Flats)
2 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
1 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)
1 Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
3 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)
3 Underground Sea (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Underground Sea)

Sideboard:

2 Duress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Duress)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion Clique)
1 Moat (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Moat)
2 Flusterstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flusterstorm)
3 Disenchant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Disenchant)
2 Surgical Extraction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical Extraction)
1 Zealous Persecution (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Zealous Persecution)
1 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing Needle)
1 Null Rod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Null Rod)


I am still not sure about the sideboard, but I really like the 60.

[weaselface]

Been testing the countertop version a bit. Feels like the Shardless Bug MU is pretty bad. How would you people approach that MU?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Jon]

Managed to Top 8 a local GPT with a tossed together list.

Deck was sweet.

RD1- Win D&T
RD2- Win BG Depths
RD3- Win D&T
RD4- Loss Ape RUG Delver
RD5- DRAW Painter
TOP8 - Loss D&T

I can probably work the manabase a bit more and probably slide some spells around. Overall the deck was spot on for the meta. I give the SB 13/15 .

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/e8ec66a210648cbebaa20d6f4a80c0cf.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/98ccc11766656a3501a10efb921b40d7.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/e4e175ee288698b5446bf0b938253fd1.jpg

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Serch]

wow nice sleeves, where can i find them?

[Diogo37]

Managed to Top 8 a local GPT with a tossed together list.

Deck was sweet.

RD1- Win D&T
RD2- Win BG Depths
RD3- Win D&T
RD4- Loss Ape RUG Delver
RD5- DRAW Painter
TOP8 - Loss D&T

I can probably work the manabase a bit more and probably slide some spells around. Overall the deck was spot on for the meta. I give the SB 13/15 .

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/e8ec66a210648cbebaa20d6f4a80c0cf.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/98ccc11766656a3501a10efb921b40d7.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160529/e4e175ee288698b5446bf0b938253fd1.jpg


Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Congratz
Very nice list, but I have some questions
How Ghastly Demise works for you? Sorin and Notion Thief MD is a good thing?

[Mapson]

I think this deck is fantastic right now, but I also think that perception depends entirely on your list. I think playing both CounterTop and Deathrite is important for beating a diverse meta.

Here is my list:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-esper-mentor-25073#online


Are you still on esper mentor? I was thinking about taking your list to scg worcester but I had a couple questions, mainly about the board. The abrupt decays don't seem like the easiest thing to cast? WOuld you consider dropping them? Not to mention you have a lot of removal already. I was worried about the combo matchup. I was thinking they could become flusterstorns. I also wanted to know how the eldrazi matchup is? If it's bad do you have suggestions on how to improve it other than something like hide behind moat, kill with jace.

Also was wondering about the mana base. I don't love the basic swamp. Do you think it's necessary? I guess it's the only way to resolve drs through a blood moon which is relevant. I also kind of wanted to fit in a scrubland.

[HSCK]

So with the success of Canali's Opposition deck and his statements on brewing Esper Opposition, I was wondering if this could be a a skeleton for using it.

[Illissius]

I was just about to ask the same thing. Something like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Opposition
1 Intuition
20 lands, including 1-2 Gaea's Cradle but no Wasteland

(That's 62 cards, because it's just a very rough draft and it's not obvious what doesn't belong.)

The synergy between Lingering Souls, Mentor, Therapy, Opposition, and Intuition is nice.

[HSCK]

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Counterspell
2 Island
3 Lingering Souls
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Wasteland
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Opposition
2 Baleful Strix
2 Meddling Mage
1 Intuition


SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Containment Priest


Sorry for the lazy formatting, but I think this would be my starting point. Maybe cut the CS for another Intuition?

[hoernchen]

Did anyone try out this list??
http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/podcasts/episode-015-countertop-dementor-deck-tech/

[Ricardio]

leaving out painful truth is a crime.

[hoernchen]

I am also playing 1 main instead of Dimir Charm