bUrg Tempo vs Grixis Tempo vs Grixis Control

[Kl'rt]

It looks like the DTB section has been fixed regarding this, but I still need the Source's confirmation on this to help address the data at tcDecks, please.

A couple days ago, based on tcDecks' data, "Grixis Control" was one of the Decks to Beat, but anyone following Legacy knows that it is the Delver version, or "Grixis Tempo" that is putting up almost all of the results. Turns out that "Grixis Pyromancer" at tcDecks lumps together all the Grixis decks, whether it's the aggressive Delver tempo version, or the slower control version. They did the same with "Team America" a few years back actually, lumping all BUG decks together, whether it's tempo or control into the same archetype, but after writing to them, they kindly separated the archetypes to make the data more accurate.

I wrote to them again this time to request that "Grixis Pyromancer" be separated into the two archetypes: the aggressive Delver tempo one, and the control one. They responded back asking for more clarification between the two, saying that they're confused about how 4c (bUrg) Delver fits into this too.

Please let me know if you agree:

Grixis Tempo (Grixis Delver): The blue-black-red deck that uses Delvers, Dazes and the full set of Wastelands for a more aggressive, pro-active game-plan. This deck could be confused for "bUrg Delver (4c Delver)" because it usually has a single Tropical Island to enable Deathrite Shaman's life-gaining ability, but that is usually all the green is for. There are very little or no other green cards in this deck at all, and since the green splash is so minor, it is acceptable to leave the name as Grixis for this version of Delver. Examples:
Noah Walker Worcester May 2015 winning list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17114&iddeck=128431
Bob Huang Eternal Weekend August 2015 winning list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17901&iddeck=134946

bUrg Delver (4c Delver): This, in contrast to the above "Grixis Tempo" deck, has a much heavier green component to it, hence qualifying it as the full "4 Colour" instead of just Grixis. The green cards are usually Tarmogoyf (instead of Young Pyromancer that's used in Grixis), Abrupt Decay and sometimes Sylvan Library. Usually has a greedier mana base in comparison to Grixis to support the full four colours. Popularized in Europe. Examples:
Thomas Van Der Paelt GP Lille July 2015 5th place: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17543&iddeck=132030
Charlie Holland Eternal Weekend August 2015 7th place: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17901&iddeck=134949

Grixis Control: This, in contrast to the aggressive Delver tempo decks above, usually does NOT run Delvers, Dazes and Wastelands but instead go for a longer game-plan with more expensive spells (more Digs Through Time, etc.), more removal, usually main-deck Cabal Therapy and a planeswalker or two (Jace tMS and/or Dack Fayden). Has not been putting up the same results as the Delver tempo version lately. Examples:
Paul Lynch SCG Legacy Open Worcester May 2015 4th place: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17114&iddeck=128434
Todd Anderson SCG Premier IQ Somerset, NJ August 2015 10th place: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17956&iddeck=135532


Please confirm that you agree with this if you do, and discuss/comment if you think there could be more clarification. tcDecks wants more confirmation on this before they start to break out their "Grixis Pyromancer" archetype.

[jrsthethird]

Pretty much.

[UseLess]

Looks good, thanks for the effort.

[crush]

You can also include main differences between decks in your classification:

Grixis Tempo vs Grixis Pyromancer
- The tempo version includes Delver

BURG vs Grixis Delver
- BURG includes either Abrupt Decay or Tarmogoyf (or both)

[Bosque]

I still feel like the line between some of the BURG and Grixis tempo decks is pretty thin. What if Abrupt Decay is in the board but not the main, is that BURG or Grixis?

[Megadeus]

So much diversity. Thanks Brainstorm and Dig!

[Quasim0ff]

So much diversity. Thanks Brainstorm and Dig!
Did you happen to play magic before TC and DTT?

Did you play Delver decks back then?

[Megadeus]

Been plAying legacy since right after MM got banned. So yes. That was a fairly diverse format where things felt much different. And yes. I cast Delver alongside Dreadnoughts for a bit

[frenadol]

There are basically two versions of 4c Delver:

1. Grixis splashing DRS and maybe Decay for better mid-lategame scaling. Runs Pyro + Therapy.
2. BUG Delver splashing Lightning Bolt for better early game creature removal since Decay sucks at it. Runs Goyf + Thoughtseize.

Both of those can run the tempo package of Wasteland+Stifle at the discretion of the player, it doesn't actually have much to do with where in the color gradient the deck is positioned in.

Of course both benefit greatly in the sideboard from the splashed colors respectively. The first one is the one usually seen, since DRS is just bonkers in every metric imaginable and Grixis Delver is otherwise a very solid base deck to build from.

[ironclad8690]

You can also include main differences between decks in your classification:

Grixis Tempo vs Grixis Pyromancer
- The tempo version includes Delver

BURG vs Grixis Delver
- BURG includes either Abrupt Decay or Tarmogoyf (or both)

This is very accurate. You could even expand it to say that BURG pretty much never plays Gitaxian Probe or Young Pyromancer.

[Zulabnar]

This is very accurate. You could even expand it to say that BURG pretty much never plays Gitaxian Probe or Young Pyromancer.

4c delver includes Pyromancer

[crush]

There are basically two versions of 4c Delver:

1. Grixis splashing DRS and maybe Decay for better mid-lategame scaling. Runs Pyro + Therapy.
2. BUG Delver splashing Lightning Bolt for better early game creature removal since Decay sucks at it. Runs Goyf + Thoughtseize.

Both of those can run the tempo package of Wasteland+Stifle at the discretion of the player, it doesn't actually have much to do with where in the color gradient the deck is positioned in.

Of course both benefit greatly in the sideboard from the splashed colors respectively. The first one is the one usually seen, since DRS is just bonkers in every metric imaginable and Grixis Delver is otherwise a very solid base deck to build from.

Original BURG was RUG Delver splashing B for Decay.

Anyway, anyone who ever played the deck knows that there is a HUGE difference between Grixis with DRS (without green spells maindeck) or having even just 2 copies of AD in the main.

When you play all 4 colors actively, mana is at a premium and you have to carefully plan you mana development to avoid color screws.

What you listed at #1 is a hybrid 3 color deck, with green only for DRS activations (vs reanimator mainly) and 1-2 sideboard cards (most decks I have seen only play Ancient Grudge). Grixis with DRS will only care about Volcanic Islands and Underground Seas (Tropical Island is as good as a basic island vs 90% of matchups).

Edit:


4c delver includes Pyromancer

It depends whether you classify decks strictly by which mana their lands produce or you also take into account their playstyle. Pyromancer forces you to play proactively and it is usually bad in the 4c (BURG) build. BURG Delver plays a much more controlish role (similar to RUG).

A similar debate can be had for EsperDeathblade decks.. are those deck Esper or 4 color if they have a Tropical Island MD and a Abrupt Decay in the SB? The line is very thin and strictly for classification purposes it is better to make a clean cut.
My suggestion is to classify as 4 color only decks with green spells maindeck (namely Abrupt Decay and/or Tarmogoyf).