Bant Retreat to Coralhelm [Archive]

Phoenix Ignition

09-18-2015, 06:54 PM

This deck is getting too much attention on MTGSal to get any cohesive design push.

The new card that is getting all the hype:
http://mythicspoiler.com/bfz/cards/retreattocoralhelm.jpg

This card is actually really cool. It does lots of things, from enabling you to pretty much 1 hit kill with Knight of the Reliquary to turning every mana dork in your deck into a Lotus Cobra. It also just lets you find good stuff easily with scry, or taps down defenders. A lot of different directions could be taken with this style of deck, but I think 2 important things are necessary for it to be good:

1. The deck functions well without Retreat, and doesn't rely on any combo too much.

2. The deck can spend the mana well if it does get a Retreat and doesn't rely on KotR to win.

One of the coolest things a deck like this could do is Turn 1 Mana dork, Turn 2 Retreat to Coralhelm, Turn 3 fetchland -> 6 mana. I think building around this curve is necessary in the deck being good. We want 6cmc game changers. The one I'm thinking of is Primeval Titan since we'll already have a couple utility lands in the deck for KotR to work with.

Aside from that you can turn 2/3 a Knight of the Reliquary and then next turn drop Retreat to Coralhelm and go through your entire lands in your deck

The list I'm thinking of is something like this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness

4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
2 Negate
2 Simic Charm
3 Primal Command

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Dryad Arbor

Where do you guys think we should take this deck? Sun Titans perhaps? It's pretty cool to have a deck that just has an instant win but plays like a normal bant deck until then.

Mr. Safety

09-18-2015, 07:18 PM

No lands in your deck and a bunch of mana with Knight could lead to an instant win with goblin charbelcher. Its janky, but kinda cool.

rufus

09-18-2015, 09:12 PM

As mentioned in the spoiler thread, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Hangarback Walker can be good at taking advantage of the untap effects.

Commune with the Gods could work for you since it will find either piece. Of course that could ruin the surprise.

Other possibilities for tap creatures

Fatestitcher is a good utility tap card.

Jace's Archivist could be funny...

Tideforce Elemental also combos to grow the knight

Phoenix Ignition

09-18-2015, 09:42 PM

Hmm, maybe Jace or Hangarback... I'm not a fan of just having Hangarback to exploit the untap, but since the plan is to generate a lot of mana anyway then maybe it's worth using. I guess I'm leaning more towards not using Hangarback just because without Retreat it's going to be very underwhelming, whereas other cards will be better.

Jace might be worth it, but I think a big part of him being good is having the instants to fuel his -3 ability. Right now I'm running almost none.

And I don't think we can really get rid of every land in the deck... as funny as belcher may be.

rufus

09-18-2015, 10:58 PM

...
Jace might be worth it, but I think a big part of him being good is having the instants to fuel his -3 ability. Right now I'm running almost none.

Yeah, it would require a different approach to the game with more proactive instants and sorceries like commune and serum visions or something.

CaptainTwiddle

09-19-2015, 07:52 PM

I've done a little testing with the list posted above and maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been winning on turn 3 really consistently. My experience thus far has been that Primeval Titan hasn't been necessary. I also didn't really care for the Dispels in the main. I figure Dispel is there primarily to protect your Knight of the Reliquary from removal. If that's the case, then I think Vines of Vastwood or Apostle's Blessing are probably better options. I'm also not really impressed with Bant Charm. One card that I do like which I slotted in in place of 2 of the Rhox War Monk is Undergrowth Champion. As you start to combo of with KotR, you generate mana and can cast the Champion. If Champion is in play, your opponent has to answer your KotR immediately. Otherwise, you're left with a huge Champion as well. My last concern/thought is that it'd be nice to run more basic lands or, dare I say it, possibly some of the BFZ "battle/tango" lands, as generating mana during the combo with shocklands means paying a lot of life. I'm almost tempted to run a Crucible of Worlds in the list as well, as comboing off and then not winning leaves you without the ability to trigger further landfall or generate much mana.

I definitely think this deck is REAL and is worth exploring.

rufus

09-19-2015, 08:10 PM

I've done a little testing with the list posted above and maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been winning on turn 3 really consistently. ....

Are you finding a Kight and a Return in your top 10 cards naturally? That should only happen once every five games or so.

CaptainTwiddle

09-19-2015, 08:37 PM

Are you finding a Kight and a Return in your top 10 cards naturally? That should only happen once every five games or so.

Yeah, I've had KotR in most of my openers. My one game that went long was against Abzan, as they simply had removal for my Knights...all except the last one. I should mention (as I forgot in my last post) that I put 2 Summoner's Pact in the list in place of some Primeval Titans. In place of the Dispels I'm currently trying 1 Apostle's Blessing, 1 Vines of Vastwood, and 2 Spell Pierce.

I'm thinking of trying 1-2 Drift of Phantasms as well, as a means of tutoring for KotR and/or Retreat to Coralhelm.

Phoenix Ignition

09-19-2015, 10:25 PM

First off, where did people get the word "tango" from? I don't understand it and I've seen it used everywhere.

Next, the reason for Prime Time was that I don't assume I'll always hit a Knight with my Retreat and then I have something to both dump mana into and prepare for the long game. He finds your Kessig which will make any attacker a lethal threat and also your utility lands. I wanted a big mana dump that made immediate impact because with 8 mana dorks you're going to get some flooding and being able to always grab Kessig is worth it. Also, mana dork + retreat gives you 6 mana turn 3, so I think that's worth incorporating into the build.

I think it's imperative we treat this like a normal deck that just happens to have an Oops I win button because to do otherwise would be to forget that literally every removal will kill an early KotR and if we make it to late game that means our combo didn't work. Both cards are great in their own way and without each other so by making a deck that works either way I think we get to play the best of both worlds.

Undergrowth Champion seems really unnecessary. They're going to blow up your KotR if they can immediately anyway, and if they can't then you should have won with him, right? What scenario do you get to where Knight goes off with Retreat but Undergrowth is also required? There are a lot of Landfall creatures people keep throwing around that I think are useless since you should win when you go off anyway.

Lands are kind of up in the air, but I liked Rhox for his ability to both let us play shocks and to use bant's natural exalted triggers to their full potential. He's also pretty hilarious with Kessig, and extremely annoying for red tempo/burn/sligh strategies. Naya zoo seems to be more popular now.

I could see Drift of Phantasms as maybe a 1-of, but I do like the idea of not relying on the combo too heavily.

Dispel could be whatever. Spell Pierce is fine, Apostles blessing seems unnecessary since you're hoping to go off with Kessig on board anyway and you'll have huge trample damage by then.

CaptainTwiddle

09-19-2015, 11:20 PM

First off, where did people get the word "tango" from? I don't understand it and I've seen it used everywhere.

"Tango" refers to the expression "it takes two to tango," since it takes 2 basic lands for them the come into play untapped.

Next, the reason for Prime Time was that I don't assume I'll always hit a Knight with my Retreat and then I have something to both dump mana into and prepare for the long game. He finds your Kessig which will make any attacker a lethal threat and also your utility lands. I wanted a big mana dump that made immediate impact because with 8 mana dorks you're going to get some flooding and being able to always grab Kessig is worth it. Also, mana dork + retreat gives you 6 mana turn 3, so I think that's worth incorporating into the build.

That's fine and well, I just think that 4 Primetime may be excessive.

I think it's imperative we treat this like a normal deck that just happens to have an Oops I win button because to do otherwise would be to forget that literally every removal will kill an early KotR and if we make it to late game that means our combo didn't work. Both cards are great in their own way and without each other so by making a deck that works either way I think we get to play the best of both worlds.

Agreed 100%. Maybe a 1-of Eternal Witness just for value and to get back a KotR or Retreat that may have met an untimely Abrupt Decay.

Undergrowth Champion seems really unnecessary. They're going to blow up your KotR if they can immediately anyway, and if they can't then you should have won with him, right? What scenario do you get to where Knight goes off with Retreat but Undergrowth is also required? There are a lot of Landfall creatures people keep throwing around that I think are useless since you should win when you go off anyway.

You may be right on this. My initial thoughts on it's value during the combo are sort of irrelevant, as any reasonable opponent will just kill the KotR immediately if they can. That said, if you're playing a "fair" game, Champion is fairly hard to deal with and has synergy with KotR.

Lands are kind of up in the air, but I liked Rhox for his ability to both let us play shocks and to use bant's natural exalted triggers to their full potential. He's also pretty hilarious with Kessig, and extremely annoying for red tempo/burn/sligh strategies. Naya zoo seems to be more popular now.

The War Monk does play nicely with exalted and is big enough to shrug off a Lightning Bolt, so it's a fine choice. I'm wondering if maybe a single copy of Rafiq of the Many or Baneslayer Angel may be a reasonable inclusion to help when you don't have the combo. Also, mana dork + Retreat only gives you 6 mana on turn 3 if you play a fetchland that turn. Any other land would give you 5 mana, which makes me like Baneslayer a bit.

I could see Drift of Phantasms as maybe a 1-of, but I do like the idea of not relying on the combo too heavily.

I'll definitely test this as a 1-of. Drawing 2 would feel super bad most of the time.

Dispel could be whatever. Spell Pierce is fine, Apostles blessing seems unnecessary since you're hoping to go off with Kessig on board anyway and you'll have huge trample damage by then.

Apostles Blessing is just versatile. It can save a creature from removal or allow a large KotR to swing through unblocked when you don't have Kessig Wolf Run or even if you do, it may allow for a kill when they could otherwise chump enough damage to survive.

Phoenix Ignition

09-19-2015, 11:40 PM

"Tango" refers to the expression "it takes two to tango," since it takes 2 basic lands for them the come into play untapped.
Oh, huh... well that's... huh. Okay.

That's fine and well, I just think that 4 Primetime may be excessive.
Quite likely. I really like the whole Kessig plan with mana dorks, I think it provides awesome synergy since it works well with Coralhelm (or without, if you go far enough on lands). I haven't hand much testing with this deck yet so I'm pretty sure numbers will change some here and there. Especially the lands.

Agreed 100%. Maybe a 1-of Eternal Witness just for value and to get back a KotR or Retreat that may have met an untimely Abrupt Decay.
So really my goal is to get enough good cards in the deck that if they Abrupt Decay the Retreat to Coralhelm then we're pretty much going to win because of it. Mana dorks can clog things up, so that's my only real worry in terms of grindy games. Knight will likely be the main target of removal, so I'm just kind of building the deck around other stuff having a much better chance to live.

The War Monk does play nicely with exalted and is big enough to shrug off a Lightning Bolt, so it's a fine choice. I'm wondering if maybe a single copy of Rafiq of the Many or Baneslayer Angel may be a reasonable inclusion to help when you don't have the combo.
Ooooh a deck where I can finally play Rafiq?? Now it gets interesting. What about Chord of Calling in place of some of the other stuff? Hits KotR, Rafiq (and wouldn't that be a funny target pre-combat?), a Pridemage if necessary, even Prime Time, letting me run fewer but still have him for when KotR inevitably eats a removal. Potentially just running a Primal Command may be the best option, it can really win you games against a lot of decks and is a 5 cmc threat.

Also, mana dork + Retreat only gives you 6 mana on turn 3 if you play a fetchland that turn. Any other land would give you 5 mana, which makes me like Baneslayer a bit.
This is a good point, I was planning on having a high fetchland count just for KotR without Retreat and for when Retreat lands when I have manadorks, but I think the manabase is going to be a big issue for this deck. Thragtusk or Baneslayer could fit here pretty nicely, I wonder what other 5cmc fatties are out there for us.

Apostles Blessing is just versatile. It can save a creature from removal or allow a large KotR to swing through unblocked when you don't have Kessig Wolf Run or even if you do, it may allow for a kill when they could otherwise chump enough damage to survive.
Yeah, also possible. Sejiri Steppe might be worth trying out for that scenario as well, though it doesn't protect her before summoning sickness wears off.

There will be a lot of versions of this deck to try out I'm sure. I won't probably test in depth until I get the Retreat in the mail since my favorite place to test is the weekly tournaments and I don't really like playing with proxies.

CaptainTwiddle

09-20-2015, 12:08 AM

Ooooh a deck where I can finally play Rafiq?? Now it gets interesting. What about Chord of Calling in place of some of the other stuff? Hits KotR, Rafiq (and wouldn't that be a funny target pre-combat?), a Pridemage if necessary, even Prime Time, letting me run fewer but still have him for when KotR inevitably eats a removal. Potentially just running a Primal Command may be the best option, it can really win you games against a lot of decks and is a 5 cmc threat.

Chord might be good. I'm wondering if it may be too mana intensive for the spots where you need/want it. Only one way to find out, I suppose. Primal Command is such an amazing card. It's sometimes a bit clunky, but it always has 2 relevant modes. As for Rafiq, I jammed a few games with him as a 1-of and wow, he is AMAZING when he doesn't eat removal immediately. As we've learned from Amulet Bloom, double striking Primeval Titan is a good way to win games.

This is a good point, I was planning on having a high fetchland count just for KotR without Retreat and for when Retreat lands when I have manadorks, but I think the manabase is going to be a big issue for this deck. Thragtusk or Baneslayer could fit here pretty nicely, I wonder what other 5cmc fatties are out there for us.

I totally forgot about Swagtusk. I'm thinking he might be better in the board, but still, amazing option for the deck.

Sejiri Steppe might be worth trying out for that scenario as well, though it doesn't protect her before summoning sickness wears off.

Yeah, hard to say. There will be situations where it's good, but if they target the Knight in response to its activation or in response to the Steppe's trigger, it didn't do much good.

There will be a lot of versions of this deck to try out I'm sure. I won't probably test in depth until I get the Retreat in the mail since my favorite place to test is the weekly tournaments and I don't really like playing with proxies.

Indeed, there is a lot of room to tweak this deck (go figure, you build something with two different coordinating toolboxes and it leads to lots of room for innovation). I'm thinking a Slayers' Stronghold would be nice in here, at least until we get another land that can provide haste. This may be the most fun deck I've worked on in awhile.

Phoenix Ignition

09-20-2015, 02:23 AM

I've found for decks that run 6+ mana dorks that Primal Command is really damn good and not terribly clunky. Usually I play it in an Abzan Shell with 1 of Grave Titan and Massacre Wurm along with Seige Rhinos for unstoppable value against decks like Jund, but haven't thought too much about Bant options for single target tutors that can somewhat win games. Sun Titan is interesting, could even bring back dead KotRs. Maybe even synergize with a deck playing a lot of Ghost Quarters for Prime Time to hit.

Dragonlord Ojutai is another tempting option. I've seen D.O. absolutely wreck face in UW control decks lately. Adding Exalted to a 5 power flier sounds pretty nice too. Letting us untap with a living threat is more synergy with running Dispel/Apostle's Blessing/Spell Pierce/etc, not having to worry about immediately getting Terminated on a 5cmc.

Nice to see Bant getting some long deserved attention though.

CaptainTwiddle

09-20-2015, 03:33 AM

Dragonlord Ojutai is another tempting option. I've seen D.O. absolutely wreck face in UW control decks lately. Adding Exalted to a 5 power flier sounds pretty nice too. Letting us untap with a living threat is more synergy with running Dispel/Apostle's Blessing/Spell Pierce/etc, not having to worry about immediately getting Terminated on a 5cmc.

I've played a few more games and Primal Command seems to be pulling its weight. Dragonlord Ojutai actually seems really sweet. It plays really well with Slayers' Stronghold and we could even try to fit a Minamo, School at Water's Edge into the list (although, with the 8 mana dorks, any non-green producing land is more or less colorless in your opener).

Seraphix

09-20-2015, 07:15 AM

...

One of the coolest things a deck like this could do is Turn 1 Mana dork, Turn 2 Retreat to Coralhelm, Turn 3 fetchland -> 6 mana. I think building around this curve is necessary in the deck being good. We want 6cmc game changers. The one I'm thinking of is Primeval Titan since we'll already have a couple utility lands in the deck for KotR to work with.

...

Could Sovereigns of Lost Alara + Conscription be the 6CMC "game changer" here? Maybe with a few copies of Geist and Sigarda thrown in?

Putting Conscription Geist or any hexproof creature is obviously pretty good, and it also turns your pile of mana creatures into potential threats. Geist has always felt bad in Bant as opposed to WUR because even though you can cast him on turn 2 you basically had only 4 Paths for removal so random blockers were pretty good against you unless you had a bunch of exalted triggers. Now with Retreat you can probably tap blockers for days and just Geist people out of the game. Another card I think can fit well with this plan is Simic Charm. It can protect Knight/Retreat/Conscription/non-hexproof dude with Conscription, push damage, and Unsummon can come in handy too.

I guess the downside of Sovereigns VS Prime Time is that it takes more slots up, is clunkier (drawing Conscription kinda sucks) and is probably an easier plan for the opponent to interact with.

Another card I'm wondering might have a place here is the new Kiora. I don't know if there's room for her, but all the abilities seem relevant.

Phoenix Ignition

09-20-2015, 12:55 PM

Seraphix

09-20-2015, 01:33 PM

I'm really hesitant about Sovereigns, I think our 5-6 drop slot needs to have an immediate impact for when it eats a Terminate/Path/Liliana trigger or whatever. Ojoutai can at least avoid everything except sweepers/edicts and Thrag/Titans have an immediate impact. Drawing Eldrazi Conscription is pretty terrible too, as you said.

I'm kind of shying away from Geist in this deck, I guess I really shouldn't be since getting through blockers is what Retreat does and having exalted is great too, but I just think we can do better right now.

New kiora doesn't seem as good as something like old Elspeth. Jumping a creature, especially KotR or Rhox or Primetime, seems like it'd be one of the best planeswalker modes out there for us. Tokens are always decent too.

Minamo is pretty sweet with Dragonlord Ojutai, somehow I've been missing that interaction. Probably unncessary since we could just save a fetchland with Retreat, making Ojutai even more enticing.

My problem with Primeval Titan is it doesn't seem "unfair" enough. There are no Amulet/Valakut shenanigans or the like here and I don't know how good the Wolf-Run plan actually is in a format with efficient removal like Modern. I think Sun Titan might actually be higher impact in this sort of shell. Granted, my only experience with Prime Time/Wolf-Run is from Standard, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Without testing I don't know how viable Geist actually is in conjunction with Retreat, but I think its worth exploring. I still suspect you would need to play other cards that make Geist good, which might not make him worth running.

I hadn't noticed the Retreat interaction with Ojutai. That plus Knight for Minamo makes Ojutai look very appealing in this shell. I think you want another big win con though since you can't play too many copies of Ojutai.

Phoenix Ignition

09-20-2015, 02:02 PM

Well the real point of Prime time is that he turns every mana dork you own into a need-to-be-removed threat. Kessig + 6 lands is pretty scary pretty fast, so if your opponent isn't blowing removal on your mana dorks you're going to be killing them pretty quickly. One of the best ways to beat a control deck is to make them waste removal on your mana dorks, I've won games off of Assault Formation with Birds of Paradise because being able to hit for 2-3 damage a turn does warrant removal.

Primal Command is another great card for an additional threat. It would allow us to just play 1 of a large number of threats, when we figure out which ones are the best. Ojutai is great but there could be better finishers out there. Ojutai + kessig wolf run makes me smile.

EDIT: updated OP with decklist I think is better than previous. Still no real testing yet.

CaptainTwiddle

09-20-2015, 05:08 PM

I'm kind of shying away from Geist in this deck, I guess I really shouldn't be since getting through blockers is what Retreat does and having exalted is great too, but I just think we can do better right now.

Agreed 100%.

New kiora doesn't seem as good as something like old Elspeth. Jumping a creature, especially KotR or Rhox or Primetime, seems like it'd be one of the best planeswalker modes out there for us. Tokens are always decent too.

I put an Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the one flex slot I had left after retooling and she has been amazing for all the obvious reasons.

Minamo is pretty sweet with Dragonlord Ojutai, somehow I've been missing that interaction. Probably unncessary since we could just save a fetchland with Retreat, making Ojutai even more enticing.

I came to the same conclusion, that just fetching a land and using the Retreat to untap things is better than running Minamo, as this deck sometimes wants to keep 1 land hands and that only works if the land produces green.

Here's the list I've been jamming since last night. I'm very happy with it. The sideboard is loose and not finalized by any stretch.

Bant Retreat
CREATURES
1 Baneslayer Angel - some decks just can't beat Baneslayer
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix - super helpful when you've taken a lot of damage and assemble the combo, as it keeps you alive
1 Dragonlord Ojutai - a total bomb. Sigarda, Host of Herons could fill a similar role, but Ojutai's Anticipate is generally better
1 Fauna Shaman - with so many 1-of bullets, why not a 1-of tutor for them?
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Lotus Cobra - this snake does broken things and makes it really easy to get sufficient Wolf Run mana
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Primeval Titan
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many - this deck is looking to 1-shot kill and Rafiq makes it happen
2 Rhox War Monk
SPELLS
1 Dromoka's Command - utility at its best (not much cant walk away from a fight with KotR or Prime Time)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
1 Primal Command - utilitutor
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
LAND
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Breeding Pool
1 Dryad Arbor - mostly insurance against Liliana of the Veil in grindy matchups
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run - necessary in many games, even if just for the trample, but usually a pump for a few as well
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Slayers' Stronghold - a real powerhouse here; haste + vigilance (see Amulet Bloom)
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Eternal Witness
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Glissa Sunseeker - this might be too "fun," but going machine gun on Affinity feels nice (Glissa does a reasonable Goblin Sharpshooter impression
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Plow Under
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

The only card I'd really like to fit into the maindeck yet at this point is Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. It would probably have to be the 24th land, as its colorless mana production is limiting. It's also a little awkward to generate the sufficient mana at times, as you're almost exclusively in the market for it the same turn that you're activating Slayers' Stronghold, though Primeval Titan's attack trigger can untap 2 mana dorks via Retreat (or a KotR, which will work out the rest).

Phoenix Ignition

09-20-2015, 05:38 PM

CaptainTwiddle

09-20-2015, 06:02 PM

How has Rhox been? I want to up the Primal commands since they're devastating against most slow decks, and can be played turn 3 without much trouble here. It gives us game against Tron if we don't see our combo, and +7 life against burn is game over if they don't Skullcrack in response. If I'm running that many Primals I think it's safe to drop Rhox.

Rhox has been good. I'm going to try cutting down to 1 and adding the Suhome.

Primal would also take over Fauna Shaman's slot, who seems fine but not as good as Primal due to the swiss army knife style of the card.

I like Primal Command over Fauna Shaman in general, but I thought having another cheap play might be advantageous.

Is lotus cobra necessary? 8 Mana dorks is already going to be gumming up the works if we hit mid/late game, and doesn't accelerate us into our 3 drop which is the main problem I have with it. My main focus is to not have too many dead cards in here.

Cobra isn't "necessary," but it's pretty good. I doesn't accel into 3-drops, but it does allow for as much as 8 mana on turn 3 (T1: land, dortk T2: Cobra, fetch land, Dork, crack the fetch, dork, dork T3: tap 3 dorks, play/crack a fetch, tap 3 lands). Hence I'm only running 2. We could try just running 1, but then it's so infrequently seen early that it's probably not worth it.

Have you ever used Slayers Stronghold for the haste? It seems very niche since you'd need 3 lands in addition to whatever you're casting. +2/+0 is fine, but all lands must be scrutinized since the manabase is going to be very important to the combo.

Yes. I find myself using Slayers' Stronghold for haste in most games, ideally making Primeval Titan swing immediately but also sometime just letting a KotR immediately get active. It's also really nice with Ojutai (vigilance = hexproof).

...have you ever run into a situation where Liliana hits something other than a mana dork? I'm just wary of the hands where you have to play Dryad Arbor early and it just eats a bolt, or even worse a Pyroclasm.

I've saved a big KotR by fetching Dryad Arbor once against Jund. They had bolts for my mana dorks and I needed to chump block a Goyf, but I played a KotR with a fetch up.

Bignasty197

09-20-2015, 06:41 PM

For some reason, I keep wanting to see Arcanis, The Omnipotent in this deck. I'm probably insane though.
Also, I think something like Cunning Sparkmage seems sweet as a machine gun effect.

CaptainTwiddle

09-21-2015, 08:20 PM

For some reason, I keep wanting to see Arcanis, The Omnipotent in this deck. I'm probably insane though.
Also, I think something like Cunning Sparkmage seems sweet as a machine gun effect.

Arcanis the Omnipotent, while very cute, would just be durdly here. If you have 6 mana to cast it, you can do other things that will win you the game. He may fit into a different build though, perhaps one that is more combo-centric and doesn't rely on the combat step. I think Cunning Sparkmage is a bit of a stretch, but I could actually see boarding a copy of Izzet Staticaster against things like Elves or even Affinity. The ability to untap it with Retreat and take down multiple x/2's or bigger is pretty sweet. You probably wouldn't be looking to machine gun Noble Hierarchs or Birds of Paradise though.

Phoenix Ignition

09-24-2015, 02:43 PM

I've been doing a lot of testing with the deck and my new list is in the OP.

I tried out Lotus Cobra and I don't really like him. 8 Mana dorks seems really good with the big spells I want to cast, and if I wanted more I'd probably go Llanowar Elves just because the 3 cmc spells are so critical in this deck. Whenever I played a Lotus Cobra I always wished it would just tap for mana, since I also don't always hit my land drops. I played probably 20 games with 2x Lotus Cobra but they're going back to 0.

The combo itself is awesome, I probably got it 1 in every 10 games after they figured out how to not lose to it as often. When my opponents knew how to play against this deck they'd kill KotR on sight, which is fine because that's just how good it is. A turn 3 kill is absolutely ridiculous though in a deck that also can go big. When I found Retreat to Coralhelm but no Knight I also was doing pretty well, since I usually had one of the other fatties that synergize well with it and could pump them out quickly with untapping mana dorks. It even is really good at helping us to stall with fetchland activations on their turn.

Primeval Titan is awesome. I have him at 3 right now and the deck feels like I'm playing mana ramp + big fatties with an occasional instant win. I liked Prime Time at 2 but it does so much work that I moved him up to 3. It really helps to have such a big blocker who can also attack (Ojutai doesn't do defense as well since 4 toughness can't block most of the big creatures in the format).

Ojutai is also just incredible. Ojutai + Minamo is fantastic, and being able to fetch out Minamo with 4 KotR and 2-3 Prime Time has won me many games. Ojutai with Retreat and a Fetchland is also great. I've been such a huge fan of Ojutai that I'm keeping him at 3. His Anticipate ability just wins games for you like no other beater can.

I've been using a couple Simic Charms, and they're pretty decent. They're fairly good at stalling, but you never know when a +3/+3 wins you the game. After playing with a deck that had Path to Exile, they had to start Pathing on their turn before I untapped with Knight because of this card (usually they'd prefer to wait till my upkeep so I don't get the additional mana source). I even got to +3/+3 my 8/8 Prime Time (exalted x2) to kill through 2x Loxodon Smiter with 1x Voice of Resurgence, which was pretty awesome.

In terms of utility lands I was very disappointed with Ghost Quarter and Tec edge. You just need the colored sources. I put in a Dryad Arbor since getting from 5 to 6 mana with a Primal Command happened enough to warrant it. It also get's the fun interaction of untapping from landfall with Retreat. Manlands also were never ever used. If I could search for a land and needed damage it was pretty much always correct to grab the Kessig and then just swing with one of the mana dorks. The one thing I might want is a Radiant Fountain or Kabira Crossroads to grab as an immediate effect with Prime time.

Great deck so far though. Try out the Ojutai + minamo if you haven't yet (also with Prime times though since just knights may not be enough fetching sources for lands.

CaptainTwiddle

09-24-2015, 09:40 PM

I tried out Lotus Cobra and I don't really like him. ... Whenever I played a Lotus Cobra I always wished it would just tap for mana, since I also don't always hit my land drops. I played probably 20 games with 2x Lotus Cobra but they're going back to 0.

I've had the opposite experience. I really like the Cobra for the potential explosiveness, but also because people are scared of it. They tend to kill it on sight, which means there is less removal available for the fatties. That might change as people become more aware of what the deck is doing. I do like the benefit of having a Cobra in play with the KotR combo; it functions as a more effective mana dork at that stage, allowing you to generate so much mana that you can fetch out and activate all of your utility lands (Yay for hasty, vigilant, trampling, double strikers!).

Primeval Titan is awesome. I have him at 3 right now...

I'm running 2 Titans and 2 Primal Commands, which has been working pretty well for me. Titan is really high in raw power, but I found that I liked having my split of bombs (2 Primeval Titan, 1 Dragonlord Ojutai, 1 Baneslayer Angel, 1 Rafiq of the Many), because, as powerful as Titan is, sometimes it's nice to have the versatility of evasion, hexproof, or lifelink. Rafiq is just there to provide blowouts.

Ojutai is also just incredible. Ojutai + Minamo is fantastic, and being able to fetch out Minamo with 4 KotR and 2-3 Prime Time has won me many games. Ojutai with Retreat and a Fetchland is also great. I've been such a huge fan of Ojutai that I'm keeping him at 3. His Anticipate ability just wins games for you like no other beater can.

I agree that Ojutai is incredible. I'm not running Minamo, School at Water's Edge at the moment, because it's functionally colorless on turn 1, and I'm already running Kessig Wolf Run, Slayers' Stronghold, and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion among my 24 total lands. Ojutai's Anticipate is very powerful and giving him double strike is just the best (granted, you opponent is usually dead at that point).

I've been using a couple Simic Charms, and they're pretty decent.

I'm currently on 4 Path to Exile and 2 Dromoka's Command as my instants. I've been really impressed with Command. It's just so versatile and your creatures are generally capable of winning a fight at any stage of the game.

In terms of utility lands I was very disappointed with Ghost Quarter and Tec edge. You just need the colored sources.

Agreed. The colored mana is more important and you're explosive enough that you're generally taking the proactive role. I've had a Ghost Quarter in the board for the Tron and Amulet Bloom matchup, but I haven't played those matchups too much.

Overall, I'm really liking the deck. I'm a bit higher on an Enchantress/Constellation brew at the moment, but that deck is only going to be super good until people start packing multiple Back to Nature in their sideboards.

Phoenix Ignition

09-24-2015, 11:29 PM

SakuraTribeAlderman

09-25-2015, 06:31 PM

Awesome thread so far. Peeking in to give what is, in my opinion, an obligatory mention to Realms Uncharted. Giftsing for 4 fetchlands seems like an insane way to maintain consistency, and would keep Lotus Cobra from being a durdler. It's like Prime Time junior at instant speed. Resolving one puts you at a distinct advantage in resources and gas. You'd likely come out ahead in any grindy matchup. And if they counter it, then that's just less permission to worry about. (I love this deck's ability to just brute force its way through disruption by simply running out too many must-answers to handle.) It also seems like deck thinning is a significant byproduct of this strategy, which is especially potent with Coralhelm's Scrying. Realms would send this over the top.

Of course, you probably don't want it as more than a 2-of.

Also: I know, I only remembered Realms Uncharted existed about an hour ago. I was surprised, too.

CaptainTwiddle

09-25-2015, 11:29 PM

I find our Lotus Cobra difference interesting. I have never wanted it when I get the KotR combo going, as it has always been lethal on its own, so basically the only thing I'd want it for is Prime Time or turn 3 ojutai, though I've had some games where I had Lotus Cobra out but just couldn't get the land drops I needed (fetchlands in particular, as that's the only way to get more mana out of Cobra than any other dork).

This is interesting. I often find myself setting up the KotR combo but running low on life and tutoring for fetchlands costs too much life. Cobra lets you generate mana by getting any land, whereas a mana dork requires a fetch so you get 2 untap triggers (one for dork, one for Knight).

I think you should try out Minamo...

I really like the idea, but I think with just the single Ojutai in my list, it's not worth it. If a few more legends make the maindeck, I'll consider it.

Post your constellation deck, I'm interested. I messed around with a Starfield/Leyline deck for a while but it was just bad. Funny, but bad.

I'll get around to it soon. The deck has just changed so much in the last 2 weeks or so; I want to be sure I like where it's at first. It started as 3 colors before BFZ spoilers began, then I added blue after Kiora, Master of the Depths was spoiled, then I cut black after Retreat to Coralhelm was spoiled. I'm sure I'll start a thread before the weekend is through.

Awesome thread so far. Peeking in to give what is, in my opinion, an obligatory mention to Realms Uncharted. Giftsing for 4 fetchlands seems like an insane way to maintain consistency, and would keep Lotus Cobra from being a durdler. It's like Prime Time junior at instant speed. Resolving one puts you at a distinct advantage in resources and gas. You'd likely come out ahead in any grindy matchup. And if they counter it, then that's just less permission to worry about. (I love this deck's ability to just brute force its way through disruption by simply running out too many must-answers to handle.) It also seems like deck thinning is a significant byproduct of this strategy, which is especially potent with Coralhelm's Scrying. Realms would send this over the top.

Of course, you probably don't want it as more than a 2-of.

Oh man, if Realms Uncharted makes this deck, I'll be on cloud 9; I've been waiting for that card to do something for a long time. That said, I just can't imagine cutting anything for it. 2 copies (if any) is likely the right number, as you would want draw it with some consistency, but wouldn't really ever want more than one. Your analysis of the deck is pretty spot on. It does just brute force its way through a number of games, as everything other than a mana dork is a serious threat. The deck thinning is also very real. Between KotR and Primeval Titan, it's not uncommon that I end up with 0-3 lands left in my deck at the end of a game. Retreat to Coralhelm is nice for many reasons, but the fact that this deck is OK drawing a fetchland after all fetchable lands have been removed from the deck is something rather unique (you can still scry, shuffle, and pump your KotR).

Phoenix Ignition

09-25-2015, 11:35 PM

This is interesting. I often find myself setting up the KotR combo but running low on life and tutoring for fetchlands costs too much life. Cobra lets you generate mana by getting any land, whereas a mana dork requires a fetch so you get 2 untap triggers (one for dork, one for Knight).

How often do you cycle through your deck with KotR, do a lot of damage but not lethal, and then die before you kill them the next turn? I've (once, only) just gotten knight "big" and swung with trample for about 1/2 of their life before and then finished it up the next turn, if I was worried about dying to burn.

Also, at least from the 5 real games I got the combo off, just pumping an additional 6 mana in with a mana dork and fetches was enough to lethal-ize my knight. At least on turn 3 you usually have a lot to work with still, unless you're playing against a straight up burn deck.

CaptainTwiddle

09-26-2015, 10:47 AM

How often do you cycle through your deck with KotR, do a lot of damage but not lethal, and then die before you kill them the next turn? I've (once, only) just gotten knight "big" and swung with trample for about 1/2 of their life before and then finished it up the next turn, if I was worried about dying to burn.

Also, at least from the 5 real games I got the combo off, just pumping an additional 6 mana in with a mana dork and fetches was enough to lethal-ize my knight. At least on turn 3 you usually have a lot to work with still, unless you're playing against a straight up burn deck.

I wish I would have taken better notes or had a better recollection of these types of games in general, but often the situation would be that my opponent is tapped out (or at least low) and I jam Retreat. I want to combo off and win that turn to avoid giving my opponent a chance at removing KotR. A lot of my matchups were against Naya Company and other aggro decks, so my life total would already be under pressure. If my opponent was still at 15+ and I was at -12 life, it sometimes concerned me that I might have to run low enough that a stray Lightning Bolt could take me out. Maybe I was just playing scared, too. I would think, "What can they do that will hose me?" and what I was often most afraid of was them letting me run all of the lands out of my deck, then hitting my KotR with a Path to Exile, leaving me to play the rest of the game with nothing more than 3 lands in play (which makes casting Primeval Titan and Ojutai a bit difficult).

Phoenix Ignition

09-26-2015, 11:17 PM

Good point, I hadn't considered the stranded with no lands part, though I think if you stop at hitting them for 50% of their life you can afford to not cycle through the entire set of lands in your deck. It hasn't come up where that was necessary for me yet since if I'm comboing off early it means I already have the mana dork to untap ~8times with fetches and that has always been enough with the 19/19 or so KotR (average size) with a Kessig.

I'd say everyone should keep some notes while playing to see how often this comes up. If it's pretty infrequent (albeit quite memorable) then we could ignore it and just take the loss, since it might be better that way. I won't have time to test for a little while but will definitely play this deck at weeklies when I get the cards in.

Jon

09-29-2015, 11:53 PM

I'm surprised to see the dislike of lotus Cobra from some of you, all my testing has lead me to a mythic bant style deck with retreats .

I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

Phoenix Ignition

09-30-2015, 01:14 AM

I think it's just me. I've tried him out a lot, every time I get him he's a win-more or do-nothing with exactly zero in between. If you aren't playing something very similar to my decklist it's probably going to be completely different, but I've been thoroughly unimpressed.

CaptainTwiddle

10-01-2015, 12:04 PM

Lotus Cobra is a really unique card. The margins between it being Mediocre, Great, or Win More are very narrow. I like it. I think of it as another mana dork that provides all colors and occasionally allows for ridiculous things. It also draws your opponent's removal, as no one has ever tried to do anything fair or reasonable with Lotus Cobra. That said, it is fragile, is another poor top-deck later in the game, and isn't the best in combat. I think there are reasonable arguments either way and individual builds will affect that a lot. I actually got it in my head the other day to try a build with more Cobras, Eldrazi Conscription, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Academy Researchers, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, and a few other powerful auras...then I regained my sanity.

Jon

10-01-2015, 01:35 PM

I've been testing a Mythic Bant style deck And have found it superior to Hooglands list.

I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

Phoenix Ignition

10-01-2015, 03:51 PM

I actually got it in my head the other day to try a build with more Cobras, Eldrazi Conscription, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Academy Researchers, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, and a few other powerful auras...then I regained my sanity.

This sounds awesome, but yeah, really all-or-nothingy. If only they had Hexproof...

I've been testing a Mythic Bant style deck And have found it superior to Hooglands list.

I consider myself pretty literate in magic-talk and have no idea what you're saying here. What Mythic Bant deck and I don't really follow hoogland, care to explain?

CaptainTwiddle

10-09-2015, 08:54 PM

I don't know if this is something I necessarily want to pursue with the current builds being discussed, but it was brought to my attention that Ruin Ghost + Retreat to Coralhelm (and a land that enters the battlefield untapped and produces W) = infinite landfall triggers, which can translate to just about anything: infinite P/T, life gain, life drain, mana, etc.

Ruin Ghost is incredibly fragile, so it's not something that I would really want to build around directly, but if it could be included to provide reasonable utility outside of the combos, then I'd be interested. The fact that Ruin Ghost is a Spirit may be of some relevance.

Just food for thought at this point. If I come up with a brew around this, I'll probably start a different thread.

Phoenix Ignition

10-09-2015, 11:26 PM

Yeah there are a few cards like this one I've seen mentioned but all of them are 3 card combos that do nothing on their own. I really like this deck because both parts of the 2 card combo are good on their own and turn into an oops I win button. I've played my fair share of 3 card combo decks (I just won't shut up about how awesome my survival of the fittest + Sneak Attack + Academy Rector -> Form of the Dragon Legacy deck was my greatest creation of all time), and they always are awesome when they work but can't hold up against the best decks.

I'm going to play this deck (probably the 60 in the OP) on Monday. I'll report back after.

Darjeeling

10-10-2015, 03:34 AM

Played a list similar to the one you guys posted(I actually copied it and made small changes) at FNM tonight and Tuesday night earlier this week going 4-0 and 2-1, respectively. After seeing Rafiq and Ojutai jammed into the list, I knew I had to try it.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Primeval Titan
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 Rhox War Monk

1 Bant Charm
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
1 Primal Command
4 Retreat to Coralhelm

2 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Slayers' Stronghold

I think Sunhome is necessary. The reach it provides helps comboing off at low life totals(it allowed me to get there from 3 life). It's also disgusting with Ojutai and Primetime.
I also think Lotus Cobra is unnecessary. The deck already has a lot of mana dorks and outside of burst mana for early Titan/Ojutai, doesn't do that much. Early fatties are already possible with Retreat, anyway.

Phoenix Ignition

10-10-2015, 03:17 PM

Awesome, thanks for the report/list. Looks like we agree on stuff, which is always nice.

I'm wondering if you need to have both Sunhome and Stronghold in the deck. I know they're doing different things, I just am having issues with those 2 + Kessig making a lot of colorless mana early on. They are great with the creatures you mentioned, but still it seems a bit much.

Thoughts on 2-of Geist, 1-of Rafiq, and Rhox's? I kept trimming down my utility creatures and made my list more mana dorks into fatties but you seem to have some in between here. Also, which matchups gave you the most trouble?

Darjeeling

10-10-2015, 03:47 PM

Rhox War Monk got boarded out every time, except vs. 1 zoo matchup. He's great there, though. He feels like a fine game 1 card that's easy to board out for more specific hate after game 1. I have not played vs. burn or a Delver list yet, but he seems good there.
Geist and Rafiq have been all-stars. They naturally play well with Retreat, and KotR can find Kessig Wolf Run to push Rafiq damage through. And with all the exalted in the deck, sometimes 5 or 6 power + double strike just happens to be good enough.

I have indeed had to ship a couple of hands due to double colorless sources(and the hand would have been fine if either was a green source), but I'm unwilling to give up either of them just yet. The mid/late game functionality is too powerful. Titan can get Stomping Ground + Sunhome when he enters, which presents at least 12 the next turn, while turning all of your 2+ power creatures into legitimate threats if he gets removed. Slayers' Stronghold combines well with Ojutai, but also allows Knight to attack and pump herself.

If I had to cut one though, I would cut Slayers' Stronghold. Of course, everything I say has to be taken with a grain of salt as I've only played the deck for a week. More testing is always useful.

Phoenix Ignition

10-10-2015, 04:00 PM

Cool, what about cutting Minamo? It's awesome that it gives blue, but that's almost effectively a colorless mana most of the time and having Slayers + Minamo is a bit redundant.

The more I think about Rafiq the more I like him, so I'm gonna shove a copy into the list. Probably replace one of the Primal Commands and drop them down to 2. Playing him the turn you're comboing out with Knight is actually better than just pumping for +4 with kessig and gives you another threat in case something somehow happens and you don't kill them.

Geist still seems a bit odd to me, without pumping his power at all I feel like he'll just die to chump blocks and Pyroclasms (tron) but I guess I haven't tried to push the Retreat angle with him as hard as I can. I usually stall with it and fetchlands until I can land a bomb, whereas your strategy looks like you'll just tap down blockers and try to push your own clock faster. I'll see if I can fit a couple in to see how that works out.

Also I wanted to ask about the Dromoka slot. I'm using Negates there because they can deal with Path + Terminate or the random O stone or opponent's combo, and Dromoka handles burn and lets you fight with other creatures. Did Dromoka's Command do as much as you'd hoped? Seems good in a grindy midrange metagame but not so much against stuff that just tries to go broken strategies on you.

CaptainTwiddle

10-10-2015, 10:43 PM

Glad to see there are people actually putting some work in on this deck. I've continued my testing and have been thinking about the following:

Primal Command has been less impressive over time. It's almost always used as gain 7 + tutor for a creature. In many of those cases, I'd rather just have drawn a creature to start with. For the time being, I've replaced one of my Primal Commands with Batterskull. That card is insane. It is a beast on its own, but it also turns your late game Birds of Paradise into real threats and giving Dragonlord Ojutai vigilance and lifelink is insane. I'm tempted to replace the other Command with a powerful equipment. I like Sword of Fire and Ice, but the protection from blue means you can't use Retreat to Coralhelm to untap the equipped creature. Sword of Feast and Famine could actually be ridiculous, if the equipped creature has double strike, the untapping of your lands after the first strike may very well allow for another activation of Slayers' Stronghold or Wolf Run for a some extra points and, if the opponent isn't dead, they've discarded 2 cards. Maybe SoFF is a sideboard card?

I've also been considering splashing a single black source into the manabase (along with the Birds of Paradise and Lotus Cobras) and replacing Primal Command with Bring to Light. For now, it seems like too much of a stretch, but if there were another powerful 4-drop as a target (in addition to the existing 5-drop bombs), I'd be interested.

I wedged a Minamo, School at Water's Edge into my list and, while it's great when it's great, it's also a bit clunky and just doesn't come up all that often. Slayers' Stronghold is just better most of the time. If you're running more legendary creatures, Minamo might be more worthwhile, but I'm not sold at the moment. I also agree that Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion is great/necessary. I actually prefer it to Kessig Wolf Run. Double strike is just such a potent ability that has both offensive and defensive applications. That said, I think Wolf Run is a necessary evil, as sometimes you just need to swing through a body.

My favorite card in the 75 currently is Izzet Staticaster. When it's good, it's sooooo good. Also, the ability to untap it with Retreat makes it extremely potent and nobody ever seems to see it coming.

I had been thinking about playing some more powerful 3-drops (e.g. Geist of Saint Traft or Loxodon Smiter), but I realized that I'm usually taking turn 2 to play more mana ramp, unless I have the KotR with Retreat in hand. I'm really looking more for the 5+ mana on turn 3 than I am 3 mana on turn 2.

Darjeeling

10-11-2015, 03:31 AM

Izzet Staticaster

I need a change of pants. I had not thought of this.

As for Dromoka's Command, it's been fine. You can fight Twin's creatures, and have your dork fight theirs in "mirrors". I've never been a fan of maindeck Negate in modern because when it's bad it's really, really bad.
Geist often is bigger than 2/2 on the attack with all the Exalted the deck has.

My sideboard is as follows:

1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Izzet Staticaster(was Fracturing Gust)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Dismember
2 Dispel
1 Negate

Of course, it's somewhat tailored to my local meta. Also, a single Sacred Foundry seems like it might be good if we're playing all 3 colorless lands, so if Minamo is on the chopping block...

CaptainTwiddle

10-11-2015, 09:38 AM

As for Dromoka's Command, it's been fine...

My sideboard is as follows:

1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Izzet Staticaster(was Fracturing Gust)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Dismember
2 Dispel
1 Negate

...Also, a single Sacred Foundry seems like it might be good if we're playing all 3 colorless lands.

Thanks for sharing. I too have been a fan of Dromoka's Command. I'm running 2 copies currently and am almost always glad to have it in hand. Dismember seems like a really good sideboard option. I've often found myself just wanting another piece of removal and it was hard to find something on color. I thought about Lightning Bolt, but I didn't want to rely on the splash color.

My manabase currently looks like this:

3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Breeding Pool
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge*
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

Minamo, as discussed previously, is sort of the flex slot. I've thought about making it either a Hallowed Fountain, Sacred Foundry, or another Breeding Pool. If it's another shockland, it should be one that can be sacrificed to Knight of the Reliquary. For the sake of overall numbers, I'm liking either W/R or W/U options, but they suffer from a similar problem as Minamo, in that they don't allow us to cast a mana dork on turn one.

As for the sideboard, I keep changing it. There are just so many options available. Because of the inclusion of Primal Command in the maindeck, I've leaned a bit heavier on silver bullet creatures. I mentioned in a previous post about possibly running Bring to Light. If I actually take that step, then running powerful instant/sorcery bullets becomes a bit more appealing. Here is my current board:

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Aven Mindcensor - may change, as having 1 doesn't allow it to show up reliably enough
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke - may cut as it does affect some of my own lands and there just aren't that many decks that this really hoses currently
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 Ghost Quarter - these are here for Tron/Amulet, but I haven't played those matches much, so these slots have felt wasted
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms - newest addition. haven't used it yet, but it seems powerful vs control or against the Lantern of Insight deck
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selesnya Charm - this will likely become Dismember, as the removal mode was almost exclusively what would be used
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons - this was intended as tech against Liliana of the Veil, but with all the mana dorks, she's not that scary
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

thedogue

10-13-2015, 11:56 PM

CaptainTwiddle

10-15-2015, 11:50 AM

So guys I've been working on a list that's doing pretty well -- testing it with friends that are all strong players with a variety of decks.
Here's the List:
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Birds Of Paradise
4 Primeval Titan

4 Serum Visions
3 Remand
2 Sleight Of Hand
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Cryptic Command
4 Path To Exile
4 Retreat To Coralhelm

1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Plains

The Board is kind of a toss up:
3 Stony Silence
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Spellskite
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Admonition Angel
1 Jace, Architect Of Thought
2 Scavenging Ooze

Could use some feedback on the board mostly.
Honestly the mainboard is doing strong but... it is a few cards off. I know someone else will know how to make it right.

This build seems a little more "all in" in the KotR + Retreat combo. I'd consider cutting some of the cantrips (e.g. Sleight of Hand) for Commune with the Gods. I also think you want 1-3 additional turn 1 mana dorks. Running the full 4 Cobras offsets the lack of a T1 dork a bit, but you want that T3 combo win when you can get it. I'm curious about Cryptic Command, as it seems a bit slow and clunky in this shell. I'm also wondering how Sphinx's Revelation has been. That was another card I had been considering at a x1, but I figured if I was generating enough mana to make it good, I was probably already doing really powerful things.

Whitefaces

10-15-2015, 01:07 PM

CaptainTwiddle

10-16-2015, 01:51 AM

Different playstyle, but this is what I've been playing the last couple of weeks with fairly good results. Definitely still some changes to be made though, the creature count is currently too low for Coco for example.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Eternal Witness

3 Retreat to Coralhelm

2 Dromoka’s Command
4 Path to Exile
2 Unified Will
4 Collected Company

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain

SB
2 Stony Silence
2 Negate
2 Dispel
1 Unified Will
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Spellskite
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sigarda

This is another interesting take. With respect to the creature count being too low for Collected Company, that's going to be something hard to manage in a deck that wants to play at least 3 copies of Retreat to Coralhelm. If you're going to run CoCo, I'd probably only run 3 copies (similar to the Naya Company decks) and trim most of your non-Path to Exile spells by 1. Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze seem like reasonable, if generic, inclusions. I may also swap out a Geist, a Witness, and a Pridemage for Loxodon Smiters; they're a little more robust than Geist when you aren't playing a ton of removal and they're awesome against Liliana of the Veil.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I might try out a version that essentially takes the Naya Company deck and swaps the Red for Blue. I could see Scythe Leopard being a reasonable Wild Nacatl analog in the same color slot (though Steppe Lynx is generally more powerful).

Whitefaces

10-16-2015, 12:35 PM

This is another interesting take. With respect to the creature count being too low for Collected Company, that's going to be something hard to manage in a deck that wants to play at least 3 copies of Retreat to Coralhelm. If you're going to run CoCo, I'd probably only run 3 copies (similar to the Naya Company decks) and trim most of your non-Path to Exile spells by 1. Tarmogoyf and Scavenging Ooze seem like reasonable, if generic, inclusions. I may also swap out a Geist, a Witness, and a Pridemage for Loxodon Smiters; they're a little more robust than Geist when you aren't playing a ton of removal and they're awesome against Liliana of the Veil.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I might try out a version that essentially takes the Naya Company deck and swaps the Red for Blue. I could see Scythe Leopard being a reasonable Wild Nacatl analog in the same color slot (though Steppe Lynx is generally more powerful).

You're right about CoCo, I'll be trimming one for sure.

Elspeth has been huge, so I'll stick with two for now. The Dromoka's Commands have been solid too. They weren't originally in the deck, but 4 PtE wasn't enough removal. Not sure if there is a creature with 3cmc in bant colours that could serve as removal?

The Unified Wills can certainly be moved to the SB. These two slots need to be creatures really. I've tried Goyfs, Ooze and Smiters already, all were subpar. Goyf is usually too small in this deck (land, creature, instant at best...not including elspeth here as that's very rare), Ooze isn't aggressive enough to fit the playstyle of the deck and Smiter was the worst of the 3 drops I was playing. It's important not to overload on just ones and threes too as the deck is incredibly clunky without a manadork. I think I'll try adding two goyfs back in, not thrilled about it though. Qasali started as a 2-of actually and has been bumped up to 3, then 4. It's amazing in this deck. Witness has been performing incredibly well too, almost enough to warrant a third copy. The synergy with CoCo is pretty devastating in midrange matchups.

Geist plays incredibly well with 8 exalted creatures and elspeth. I've won more games with him than anything else actually.

I made a mistake on the list btw, not sure how the discrepancy came about but there are 2 ooze in the SB.

CaptainTwiddle

10-16-2015, 10:00 PM

Not sure if there is a creature with 3cmc in bant colours that could serve as removal?

Fiend Hunter and Banisher Priest come to mind, but I'm not sure they're where you'd want to be, as they aren't particularly aggressive and they're fragile. That said, being able to CoCo into creature removal is pretty sweet. You could also try something like Lyev Skyknight, which might be OK with all the exalted in the deck (that 1 toughness is concerning, but Flickerwisp sees play, so why not?).

foilpollouteddelta

10-22-2015, 07:04 PM

CaptainTwiddle

10-22-2015, 10:25 PM

In my build I'm playing 2-4 coiling oracle 2 scavenging ooze 4 noble heirarch 4 knight and a spicy 4 of vinelasher kudzu. The kudzu has impressed me alot when I combo off due to being an auxiliary knight I'm also playing 2 oujatais command to rebuy value 2 drops.

I'm intrigued by Coiling Oracle, especially in a build running Courser of Kruphix, as you can set it up for optimal land/draw plays. As for Vinelasher Kudzu, it's a card that I have considered for a more Zoo-esque build, but I don't know that it really matters much in a more midrange shell, because if the opponent has removal for the KotR, they're just going to kill it immediately, thereby preventing Kudzu from growing much. Granted, it is a reasonable 2-drop that can grow with the help of KotR, but if I were in the market for something like that, I'd probably just retool a list to include Tarmogoyf. Ojutai's Command seems like a reason able card, if you've got relevant 2-drops.

CaptainTwiddle

10-28-2015, 01:22 PM

I just wanted to post my updated list and share some thoughts I've been having.

Knightfall (I like this as a deck name, as the whole Bant thing didn't really work w/ the inclusion of Red and 4-Color Retreat was boring)
CREATURES
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Lotus Cobra
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Primeval Titan
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
SPELLS
1 Ajani Steadfast - new addition*
1 Batterskull
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
LAND
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Breeding Pool
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge - not satisfied with this*
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Bribery
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Dismember
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spellskite
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I cut Primal Command, as it was just too slow/clunky. I ended up gaining life and tutoring most of the time, so something like Thragtusk just seems like it'd be better in that slot. I wanted to bring the curve down a bit, so I went with Ajani Steadfast. He is a very powerful card and has a lot of synergy with Ojutai. I'm concerned that his +1 ability is a bit redundant with my top end threats. It's very good with a KotR, but a little less so with a Baneslayer/Batterskull. His -2 ability may be helpful go wide with mana dorks. I haven't drawn him yet since adding him. Time will tell. It does make me wonder if I should just be running more Ojutai in the deck, as some many of the inclusions in the list are partially justified by "it's awesome with Ojutai." Minamo is the other main culprit. If I'm going to run a land that only produces blue, it should be a basic island.

Before I settled on trying Ajani, I was really running through some mental loops for a reasonable inclusion. Here are some things I considered, some of which go a little deep.

Wood Elves - You can ramp to this on T2 and follow up with another mana dork, allowing 6 mana on turn 3.
Woodland Bellower - This can tutor up a KotR or other, less impressive creatures, or possibly...
Mwonvuli Beast Tracker - This could be found by Bellower and then finds Primeval Titan. It's probably not worth it just yet, but if we get a few more reasonable things to search for, it may be. It's on my watch list.
Sakura-Tribe Elder - I like this a lot. It's another way to trigger landfall during your opponent's turn and it's a 2-drop. However, I'd want to run at least 1 more basic land to include even 1 of these.
Eternal Witness - Standard value option, but this deck doesn't necessarily end up with much it it's graveyard, aside from lands.
Explore/Farseek - More ramp and at the 2-drop slot.
Yavimaya Dryad - This is probably getting way too cute, but giving an opponent a forest and then attacking with the unblockable dryad that gets buffed with exalted, by your lands, and can wear a Batterskull...It would lead to some good stories at least.

I might also just want to add one more Dromoka's Command to the maindeck, as it's been really good in almost any situation.

Timber

10-29-2015, 08:49 AM

Whitefaces

10-29-2015, 09:19 AM

I've always wondered if there was a Bant Geist Deck. Heirarch + Geist + Dromoka's Command + Gavony just seems too good to pass up. I like that you have 2 strategies here: beat down with Geist or Knight or combo off with Retreat and Knight.

The deck wins with Geist beats more than anything else actually. With the eight exalted creatures, Elspeth to jump him and as you say command and Gavony he's very hard to answer.

This is where I am at the moment. Constantly updating...

I'm torn between Smiters and Goyfs. Both aren't great, but have big butts for command to be stable removal.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Smiter

3 Retreat to Coralhelm

2 Dromoka’s Command
4 Path to Exile
3 Collected Company

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain

SB
2 Stony Silence
1 Dispel
3 Unified Will
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Spellskite
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Barook

10-29-2015, 09:29 PM

@Dissection: That lists looks pretty cool. What are good/bad match-ups so far?

Loxodon Smiter has the advantage of being significantly cheaper money-wise. :wink:

Judas

10-30-2015, 06:04 AM

Hi,
Currently playing this deck since Retreat to Coralhelm is reveled in 4 FNMs.
Record of 11W-3L-0D.

Current List :

4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Loxodon Smitter
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness

3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Collected Compagny
4 Path to Exil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Breeding pool
1 Hallowed fountain
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost quarter
2 Forest
2 Plain

MU were :

1 Lantern control
2 Splinter Twin
2 Bogle
2 Grixis Control
1 Grixis Delver
1 Merfolk
1 Tron
2 Jund
1 "random" (monoB aggro zombie)
1 RDW

Loses are against :
- Bogle, the first time I meet the deck lose the first on misplay (don't keep the PtE on top with the coralhelm scry and the only creature he add was a Kor Spiritdancer) and don't it a single enchant hate in the 2nd.
- Jund, first time Lilianas were just sac effect for 3 (because of 2 smiter in hand) but the second time Jund got to much creature hate, things the deck don't really like.
- Merfolk the first game he win on aggro, the second I start comboing off, he tells me that he can't do anything so I just end up by attacking with a big KotR without keeping safety net (Fetch and Plain/Forest on board, sejiri and fetchable land in Library). Response to attack phase -> Harbinger of the tides ... It was a friend and don't wan't to cry out in a friendly event, but explained him that he cannot win this game if he don't tell me that he cannot do anything. But I feel like Merfolk isn't a really good MU.

Sideboard change over time

There is a lot of bogle (and a good splinter twin always here to 3-0 or 4-0 if I don't play against him ^^) in the FNM metagame so it's look like this for these events :

- 3 Back to Nature
- 3 Dromoka's command
- 3 Spellskite
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Kataki
- 2 Kor Firewalker
- 1 Ghost Quarter

There is obviously at least 3 slot (BtN) that are subject to change over metagame.
I'm either not fond of Kataki.

thanks for reading, waiting for comments ^^

StoicAngel

11-05-2015, 04:18 PM

I been trying more of a fauna shamen approach by making emrakul a silver bullet. 2 of them creates a nifty loop.

CaptainTwiddle

08-15-2016, 07:00 PM

After taking some time away from various Knightfall lists, I thought I'd revisit the archetype now that some new tools have been introduced to the format. Here's my current list.

Knightfall/4-Color Retreat
CREATURES
1 Archangel of Thune
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Reveillark
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Spike Feeder
4 Voice of Resurgence
SPELLS
1 Commune with the Gods
4 Eldritch Evolution
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
LAND
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

The namesake combo of Knight + Retreat is here. As for lands, I'm running Kessig Wolf Run and Sunhome as my combo/kill lands. I'm considering cutting the Wolf Run though, as I've yet to actually use it in a combo finish. Sunhome lets you easily close the game after tapping all of your opponents creatures down. Wolf Run may be better in a world with lots of tokens, which we may be entering, as Dredge with Bridge from Below is now a thing.

There are some additional combos in the list as well. Nahiri + Emrakul is a known, powerful combo. Nahiri is also just a solid value engine and lets us dig for our combo pieces and dump excess lands into the yard to buff Knight. She also combos with Retreat to tap down and then exile opposing creatures. The other combo in the list is Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder. Angel is a powerful card in and of itself and Feeder is reasonable utility (note that you can remove it's counters to allow it to die, thereby removing opposing Bridge from Belows, if needed).

Eldritch Evolution is a new tool for this deck. It allows you to turn a turn 1 mana creature into a Knight on turn 2, allowing for more consistent turn 3 combos. It also lets you turn random 3 drop creatures into Archangel to pursue that combo. Voice of Resurgence is an incredible value card and is oftentimes upgraded when sacrificed to Evolution. Another corner case that I've already had come up is that I was able to ultimate Nahiri, putting Emrakul into play. Despite the annihilator and 15 damage, my opponent wasn't dead and had one creature left on board to finish me off, except I was able to cast Eldritch Evolution, sac'ing Emrakul, shuffling itself back into my library, and tutor it back into play to stick around and play defense.

Some quick notes on other cards:

Courser of Kruphix - Solid value creature that allows you to combo with Knight and offsets damage from your fetch/shock lands.
Lotus Cobra - Allows you to ramp your mana to as much as 8 on turn 3, powering out Archangel of Thune for a quick alternate combo finish. Also, having Cobra in play for the Knight + Retreat combo lets you generate mana without losing life so you can still activate Sunhome/Wolf Run for the win.
Reclamation Sage - General utility creature, but I picked Sage over Qasali Pridemage, as having a CMC of 3 allows you to Evolve it into a 5 drop, namely Archangel or...
Reveillark - Another powerful value creature that can just close games. It gets back dead Knights and most other things.
Sakura-Tribe Scout - Oftentimes this is just going to be mana dork no. 6, but it has the upside of being able to make landfall on your opponent's turn, allowing Retreat to tap down potential attackers. You can also use Retreat to untap the Scout to empty all the lands from your hand into play.
Commune with the Gods - I wanted some additional dig/cantrip in the deck, but found myself with only 1 slot. Commune digs 5 cards deep for Knight or Retreat, or any other creature you want/need. You can also use it to dump lands into the yard to bolster Knights or dump Emrakul to shuffle pieces back in for potential rebuys (note: there is a potential nonbo of shuffling your yard in and shrinking your Knights, but you never "have" to make that happen).

My sideboard is as of yet undetermined, as the format has been rather freshly shaken up. It's mostly 1-ofs, facilitated by Eldritch Evolution. Some notable inclusions for the time being are Keranos, God of Storms (powerful Evolution target for grindy games) and Izzet Staticaster (poweful against certain wide strategies and combos nicely with Retreat).

NATO

10-26-2016, 09:47 AM

There are a lot of list that splash red as a fourth color for kessig and nahiri, I wanted to get you guys' thoughts on b splashing black instead of red. It opens the deck up to some of the more robust removal spells i.e. Abrupt decay and cretures i.e. orhzov pontiff, and anafenza for graveyard hate. As far as lands go vault of the archangel makes combat a nightmare for opposing players. Since murmuring bosk is a forest it also adds another level of utility.

Thoughts?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

BlackStarDeceiver

10-26-2016, 04:05 PM

I for myself think that the only real reason to splash red is Kessig and Izzet Staticaster as it is so strong against Affinity Infect and small dork stuff.

CaptainTwiddle

10-26-2016, 05:59 PM

I've taken a bit of a hiatus from working on Knightfall decks, as I've been a tad underwhelmed by them. I think the issue with the decks is simply that they end up being too much of a "Swiss Army knife" when Modern is more of a "scalpel" format. Eli Kassis has done reasonably well on the SCG circuit playing versions that use Collected Company. While I think those builds are good, they don't seem like the most powerful thing you can be doing with Collected Company. I think what the KotR + Retreat to Coralhelm combo really needs to shine is a solid shell that it can fit into while providing added synergy from both of the combo pieces individually. Early on (as in, right after Battle for Zendikar was released), there were some creature toolbox decks that generally ran Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Restoration Angel and included the Knight + Retreat combo. While those decks could derive extra utility from Retreat to Coralhelm (e.g. untapping Kiki) and KotR (e.g. facilitating a 5-color mana base), they seem to have evolved into the more streamlined Kiki Evolution lists that we see today.

So, after all the variations I've explored since this thread was started, I think if/when I come back to the deck, I'm going to start with my original approach of trying to build a midrange/value deck that can play the attrition game and incidentally combo off, while getting value from Knight and Retreat individually.