"Exile Until"

[rufus]

WotC has recently printed a number of cards with "exile [card] until ~ leaves the battlefield" templating like Banisher Priest or Brain Maggot. It seems like that kind of template can create some odd timing. Is there a guide on that somewhere?

Example questions:

Suppose, for example, that I've got Banisher Priest in play exiling an opponent's Eidolon of the Great Revel and I cast Collateral Damage targeting the opponent, and sacrifice Banisher Priest as part of the cost. As far as I understand, this means Eidolon returns to the battlefield while the spell is being cast. Will an Eidolon trigger go on the stack for the spell that I'm casting?

If Banisher Priest is exiling a clone, and leaves the battlefield, can the clone enter the battlefield as a copy of that banisher priest?

Suppose that my opponent has exiled my Llanowar Elf with Banisher Priest, if I take control of the priest with Act of Treason and then cast Gluttonous Slime can I sacrifice both the elf and the priest to the devour ability? What about Forbidden Ritual instead of devour?

[genuine fugazi]

If Banisher Priest is exiling a clone, and leaves the battlefield, can the clone enter the battlefield as a copy of that banisher priest?

This one is easy:


7/1/2013: The exiled card returns to the battlefield immediately after Banisher Priest leaves the battlefield. Nothing happens between the two events, including state-based actions. The two creatures aren’t on the battlefield at the same time. For example, if the returning creature is a Clone, it can’t enter the battlefield as a copy of Banisher Priest.

[Julian23]

This is how it would work if Banisher Priest had a "leaves the battlefield" trigger; however, it doesn't which is the reason rufus is asking how this unintuitive timing is properly dealt with, ruleswise.

[Tylert]

This is how it would work if Banisher Priest had a "leaves the battlefield" trigger; however, it doesn't which is the reason rufus is asking how this unintuitive timing is properly dealt with, ruleswise.

Yeah you're right. forgot that it was worded this way to avoid blink while exile trigger is on the stack :)
however, I don't think it changes anything. Banisher priest leaves the battlefield, so it cannot be target for the clone.
For Eidolon trigger, the spell has already been cast. so no trigger.
For devour and forbidden ritual, you resolve the spell in its entirety before checking statebased actions or things like banisher priest leave the battlefield clause.

[rufus]

...
put on the stack the banisher priest "leave the battlefield" trigger.
...


They very deliberately didn't make it a triggered ability. ".... The exiled card returns to the battlefield immediately after Banisher Priest leaves the battlefield. Nothing happens between the two events, including state-based actions. ..." I suppose if the return gets handled with 'state-based' timing it would address some of the timing questions, but could create undesired non-interaction with cards like Momentary Blink.

genuine fugazi cited a ruling that I missed. (Thanks)

The thing is that makes it non-obvious is that clone copies creatures that were there before it enters the battlefield...

If multiple banisher priests leave play simultaneously, and one of them has exiled a clone, can that clone copy the creature the other exiled creature?

Edit:

For devour and forbidden ritual, you resolve the spell in its entirety before checking statebased actions or things like banisher priest leave the battlefield clause.

Since the ruling distinguishes between the return 'event' and 'state-based actions', it's clear that WotC distinguishes between rule 704 state-based actions and banisher priest.

[jrsthethird]

So to be clear, the "until" clause means that the creature returning to play does not use the stack, unlike Oblivion Ring. So if you use Banisher Priest on Gaddock Teeg, you better cast that Opportunity in response to the Lightning Bolt, not after.

[rufus]

... if the Banisher Priest ETB trigger targets a token creature, but the Priest is no longer on the battlefield, does the token stay when the trigger resolves?

[cdr]

The Banisher Priest-style template is actually really simple, which is why it was adopted over triggered returns. It's just an effect with a duration. I'm sure you could find an explanation for it somewhere, since it took players awhile to understand when it was introduced.

611.2b. Some continuous effects generated by the resolution of a spell or ability have durations worded "for as long as . . . ." If the "for as long as" duration never starts, or it ends before the moment the effect would first be applied, the effect does nothing. It doesn't start and immediately stop again, and it doesn't last forever.

If the Priest leaves play before its trigger resolves, the trigger does nothing.

[rufus]

The Banisher Priest-style template is actually really simple, which is why it was adopted over triggered returns. It's just an effect with a duration. I'm sure you could find an explanation for it somewhere, since it took players awhile to understand when it was introduced ..

I've seen explanations but they're "here's why we think this is better than oblivion ring" explanations, rather than "how to address strange new timing questions" explanations.

And, sure, the template is simple, but that doesn't automatically make the rules clear: With, say, Act of Aggression and Willbender it's possible to have the Banisher Priest ETB trigger target the priest itself. Now the effect ends simultaneously with being applied - I've seen consistent rulings about it, but that's a fundamentally ambiguous situation that is not addressed in 611.2b.

Is it legal to sacrifice a Banisher Priest that's exiling an Angel of Jubilation as part of the activation of a Sphinx's Herald? This is - of course - really a question about whether the sacrifice on the herald is serial or simultaneous, but, as far as I'm aware, that's not a timing issue that ever mattered before.

[Tammit67]

For Eidolon trigger, the spell has already been cast. so no trigger.

Well a spell isn't considered cast until it's very last step, after paying costs

601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.

So it is my understanding that with the priest now gone, the Eidolon is now on the battlefield and sees a spell being cast that meets its trigger requirements.

And as for your sphinx herald question

601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid. Since you can pay in any order, sacrifice the white creature last and the angel is returned after we've already paid that part of the cost.

That timing issue of paying costs in a specific order has of course mattered before. Consider Omnath, locus of mana and Momentous fall: You either pay the mana first then sac to draw 1 card or sac first then pay mana to draw 5