Legacy Twin ?

[wizard_of_gore]

Is it possible to make legacy version of splinter twin deck to be viable in post-dig meta ?

Some sort of control-combo hybrid list, maybe something like this:

COMBO (7):
4x deceiver exarch
3x splinter twin

PROTECTION (14):
2x vendilion clique
1x spellskite
4x force of will
3x thoughtseize
2x flusterstorm
1x pyroblast
1x counterspell

CARD SELECTION, FILTERING (11):
2x snapcaster mage
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
1x preordain

BOARD CONTROL (7)
4x lightning bolt
2x jace, the mind sculptor
1x Engineered explosives

LANDS (21)
3x volcanic island
2x underground sea
1x badlands
3x island
1x mountain (or 2 copies with 10 fetches)
11x fetches (or 10 fetches with 2 mountain)


Opinions ?

[Bosque]

Worked for at least one person pre-dig ban.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-8-decklists-2015-08-22

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sure I'll help you brainstorm.

What came to mind was something like U/R/w (AMERICA!!!), I feel like this has become my fav pet card but Imperial Recruiter is just awesome, with 11 mana (4x red) I'd sometimes actually go Recruiter --> Kiki-Jiki --> Pestermite kill in EDH if I really just wanted to end the game, so I can sort of relate to the combo even though this is Legacy.

Imperial Recruiter's pretty $ so I understand why a lot won't play, but filling the role of a creature that can block and equip & tutor is amazing. With that you can pick up a Clique for protection, a Magus of the Moon, or maybe a Mother of Runes. I was thinking something like:

+4 Aether Vial
+3-4 Enlightened Tutor (gets Splinter, Explosives, Vial or other silver bullets)
+1 Jitte

+4 Mother of Runes
+4 Imperial Recruiter
+1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Kiki-Jiki?

...and whatever combination of the cards on your list

I like the idea of Vial for some reason, the idea of playing it early and being able to Recruiter to get a Clique then Vial it in, or just get around counters and vial in Exarch at end of their turn seems really good. I also like the idea of tutoring... just get exactly WHAT you need and being proactive, versus playing more defensive with counters and removal and doing a lot of digging with ponders trying to find the right piece... I'd rather just chill and throw down vials and/or MOM to protect my dudes, then end of their turn get exactly the cards I need to win or deal with them.

Hope that helps, definitely don't need to use all or any of the ideas but that's one way of approaching the combo. It's difficult 'cause obviously Painter already exists and does much the same thing, so determining what this necessarily provides that's better than what they're doing is kind of sketchy, but who knows maybe its got some potential.

[jrsthethird]

Recruiter is 7 tix on MTGO so it's possible if that's where you play.

[AllIsDust]

I have a few ideas for this deck, mostly speeding it up since we lost dig through time.

Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (10)
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (5)
4 Ponder
1 Preordain (Cut lands, add this? Probe?)
Instant (16)
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast (could be spell pierce/daze/etc)
1 Spell Pierce (flusterstorm? Daze)
Enchantment (4)
4 Splinter Twin
Artifacts (3)
3 Chrome Mox
Land (20)
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient tomb
1 City of traitors
60 Cards
SB:
3 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental blast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Trinisphere
1 Vandalblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage


This build is trying to take advantage of ancient tomb since it allows for a quicker win since our combo pieces cost a bunch. The Bolt/Snapcaster plan might be harder to pull off in this format than in modern but I left it in since it gives us the backup plan against the disruptive decks. I wanted to try Chrome mox over the more traditional combo enabler lotus petal again to reinforce a fast kill but also allow us to plan a normal game with jace and snapcaster. Speaking of jace, this deck uses jace as it alt win con since we have so much ramp we needed a good pay off card and jace is one, if not, THE best. Sideboard is mostly thrown together but something cool is against storm we can turn 1 Trinisphere and really get em, and turn 1 blood moon just knocks out decks. Another benefit of Chome Mox.

[tarmogoat]

Hey! I don't know if anyone saw this, but there is a tournament report by Max Ansbro (the one who Top8ed the Legacy Champs in the link posted above). you can find that here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29844-Legacy-Champs-Top-8-with-Splinter-Twin).

I will also quote the post I made there, as it fits more this discussion rather than the report itself:


Hello! I want to play this deck, but I feel it might be too fragile. I played it a while and I really like that it has a good MU against Elves and Storm, which will probably be back in presence since DTT got banned. I also think DTT could be easily replaced by a combination of Preordains/Snapcasters/Intuition/Impulse.


Jeskai Twin
CMC0: 1
Engineered Explosives
CMC1: 15
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
1x Spell Snare
CMC2: 6
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Counterspell
1x Impulse
CMC3: 9
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Intuition
CMC4: 6
4x Splinter Twin
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
CMC5: 4
4x Force of Will
Lands: 20
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
4x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Plateau
4x Island
1x Mountain

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wear//Tear
2x Misdirection
2x Pyroclasm
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster


I also wanted to try something different, more grindy:

Counterbalance Twin
CMC1: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Spell Snare
CMC2: 8
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Counterbalance
2x Counterspell
CMC3: 7
2x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique
CMC4: 5
3x Splinter Twin
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
CMC5: 4
4x Force of Will
Lands: 20
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
4x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Plateau
4x Island
1x Mountain

Sideboard: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wear//Tear
2x Misdirection
2x Pyroclasm
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster

I really liked playing Pyroclasm over Sulfur Elemental, as it hits a lot more things like Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer and his tokens, Delver, Deathrite Shamans, Elves, Merfolk, Monastery Mentor (if you go the tap-them-out route at EoT), Affinity, etc.

I've played against Elves, Shardless BUG, ANT and Jeskai Delver/Blade. Elves and ANT seemed really favourable MUs. Shardless BUG felt pretty good, I'd call it Even (If you manage get them to tap or get them out of BG colors for decay is easy to combo them). Delver felt awful as I always had to mulligan and never got to deal with a delver or a batterskull token early on. But the MU doesn't seem unfavorable though.

What do you guys think?


EDIT: I also want to find a way to sneak in a copy of Swords to Plowshares and/or Supreme Verdict in the 75, although Verdict would request another tundra/plateau and it's not likely to happen.

Cheers!

[wizard_of_gore]

Hey, link you posted doesn't work well, could you post it again, please?

[tarmogoat]

Hey, link you posted doesn't work well, could you post it again, please?

Fixed!

[HNana]

Hey guys! I've been playing the deck lately here in Japan! I love it! It's so much more fun than in modern and it's positioned in a decent place in the meta imo! It does really well against most control and combo decks! I've played 10 tournament matches with it and won 9/10 (winning against reanimator, storm, miracles, bug delver, death and taxes, painter, BW smallpox, high tide, and losing only to affinity with horrible misplays where the deck, if played well could have easily won) Here's my list:
Jeskai Twin
CMC1: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
1x Spell Snare
1x Flusterstorm
CMC2: 5
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Counterspell
CMC3: 9
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Intuition
CMC4: 7
4x Splinter Twin
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
CMC5: 4
4x Force of Will
Lands: 20
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Any other blue fetch
4x Volcanic Island
4x Island
2x Mountain
2x Ancient tomb

Sideboard:
2x Fluststorm
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyroclasm
2x Misdirection (I don't really like it tho, and I want to swap it out for something different)
1x Arcane Laboratory
2x Shattering Spree (a good way to deal with Chalice on 1!)
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x From the Ashes (this card is great against bug/4 color delver etc, essentially a 1 sided armageddon)

The strengths of the deck include:
- The opponent not being able to guess what you're playing just by a few turns (is it grixis control? UR delver? omnishow?).
- The opponent not having a ton of sideboard cards against the combo itself, yes there are some that really can hurt, but twin specific sideboard cards don't exist in this format
- Most things can be played at instant speed. Clique, exarch, snap etc, it's great to be able to clique the opponent the end of your 3rd turn, have them FOW or pyroblast the clique or whatever, then drop a jace. A lot of matches I won were just from dropping jace and +0 a few times to get enough advantage to beat down or combo off.
- It plays a good midrange game, and I felt it was way easier to keep pestermite alive than it is in modern (no kolghans command, not nearly as many lightning bolts, it flies etc).
- Lots of basics make it wasteland resistant
- Once opponents know it's coming, they tend to save stp for the combo pieces and then let you beat freely with clique. This applies to discard, too. I had too many opponents turn 1 thoughtseize me and instead of taking something like brainstorm (which would have really hurt), they take a splinter twin instead when I have a 2 land hand and no exarch/pestermite.

Weaknesses -
- Really weak to decay. Yes there's misdirections in the sideboard, and clique to help get them away, but the uncounterable decay makes comboing off rough.
- Weak to other "meta" decks, like MUD, 4 color loam.
- Not quite fast enough to beat rug delver or 4 color delver/pyro pre-side.
- No good way to deal with a resolved counterbalance (pyroblast is pretty much it)

Anyways, the deck is legit, people I've played against have said that it's really cool, and seems pretty strong. Many games were won just by beating down with a clique and/or snapcaster/pestermite. Because of the versatility, it can be played in a bunch of different ways, making it really fun! Some of the lists were 3 color but canonist seems unnecessary to me (i like arcane laboratory better), and wear/tear is really the only thing that i really miss, because I don't have a good way to deal with counterbalance, choke, etc. The 2 color version is actually really consistent and losing wear/tear might be worth it to be able to slam more basics and have less of a chance of getting wastelanded or mana screwed. Any thoughts, suggestions?

[tarmogoat]

I played the Jeskai version with white cards SB and it felt awesome. Ethersworn Canonist is so much better than Arcane Laboratory, as not only she can beat to the face while stopping the storm count but also she comes down 1 turn earlier, which is huge. Wear // Tear is just awesome and so much faster/efficient than the UR best options which are Chain of Vapor/Engineered Explosives and you can even slam Rest in Peace to shut down graveyard strategies.

[wizard_of_gore]

Ok, guys, i have few questions:

- Is it really necessary to play 4 copies of splinter twin? With lots of brainstorm and ponders (even maybe preordain) i think 3 should be enough? I don't think we have opportunity to play combo on turn 4 every game if we take the facts that we are playing in format with stifles, wastelands, dazes, spell pierces... Every copy of twin above 1 sitting in your hand is too much and represent a dead card.
- Also, is 6 tappers maybe too much? 4-5 would be exact number in my opinion. They can steal time, but they are weak on it's own anyway
- Abrupt decay is problem, so, is it smart to splash black for thoughtseize/iok to fight decays turns before comboing out?

[Echelon]

Every copy in your hand above 1 can always be used to bait counters.

[HNana]

I played the Jeskai version with white cards SB and it felt awesome. Ethersworn Canonist is so much better than Arcane Laboratory, as not only she can beat to the face while stopping the storm count but also she comes down 1 turn earlier, which is huge. Wear // Tear is just awesome and so much faster/efficient than the UR best options which are Chain of Vapor/Engineered Explosives and you can even slam Rest in Peace to shut down graveyard strategies.
Yeah, I can see that. I might give the Jeskai version a try, then. Thanks for the opinions/advice!

wizard - in this sort of deck, they're really good. They tap guys, exarch can block well, and pestermite can swing for 2 in the air, which is nothing to laugh about. Protecting yourself from dying quickly is one of the ways that the deck is really good. Being able to protect a jace can also be really important. I like having a high amount of these, as they are great for a beatdown plan, to stabalize, to block etc. 4 twin is generally good pre-board. It's really easy to side out depending on the deck you're playing against. The beatdown plan/jace plan is still good so 4 twin isn't totally necessary, and I tend to side out one copy if I'm playing against a deck with very little disruption to my personal combo. I've also had times where I've thrown the twin on a snapcaster just to flashback a new spell every turn and ended up winning that way.

Also as for splashing black, that's what modern twin does. Not a terrible idea, but cliques and misdirections are your best bet against those types of decks.

[tarmogoat]

Ok, guys, i have few questions:

- Is it really necessary to play 4 copies of splinter twin? With lots of brainstorm and ponders (even maybe preordain) i think 3 should be enough? I don't think we have opportunity to play combo on turn 4 every game if we take the facts that we are playing in format with stifles, wastelands, dazes, spell pierces... Every copy of twin above 1 sitting in your hand is too much and represent a dead card.
- Also, is 6 tappers maybe too much? 4-5 would be exact number in my opinion. They can steal time, but they are weak on it's own anyway
- Abrupt decay is problem, so, is it smart to splash black for thoughtseize/iok to fight decays turns before comboing out?

- It is not necessary, but the value it can provide attached to snapcasters and even v cliques is incredible. Brainstorm + Fetch/Ponder is a great way of shuffling undesired twins in hand. Also, against linear decks like elves, big red, MUD (if you disrupted lodestone) and storm, you just jam the combo on T4 and they just look at you do it.
- 6 tappers is too much if you play less than 4 twins. Pestermite is awesome at beating down and exarch does a good job at protecting jace, which is the control wincon.
- Misdirection/Divert, and V clique is the way to deal with that, as brainstorm is the way to deal with discard. I don't believe you would improve your MUs by splashing black instead of white, I believe in this deck it would do the opposite, except for elves and D&T but Sulfur Elemental, Izzet Staticaster and Pyroclasm already do a great job against them.

In my opinion this deck is way more powerful in legacy than in modern and I am so glad I tried it, it is really fun and can be really surprising how it actually works. The only problem it has I'd say are decks that put pressure fast and play Daze, but not like they are impossible, if you draw decent cards you can fight them in a fair way.

[wizard_of_gore]

Ok, guys, i believe you :D

Btw., twin doesn't work on clique because of legend rule. I mean, it can work if you sac original clique, but that's bad.

[One With Nothing]

Hey there everyone, I've been testing the following version on MTGO and have been having decent success. I think this deck is pretty decently positioned right now because of how easily you can just win on the spot with a Blood Moon.

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Deceiver Exarch
3x Pestermite
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Pyroblast
2x Blood Moon
3x Splinter Twin
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Fire // Ice
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
5x Island

2x Flusterstorm
1x Tundra
1x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
2x Sulfur Elemental
3x Meddling Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Wear // Tear
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Engineered Explosives

Blood Moon has been treating me pretty well lately. The sideboard needs some work for sure, and I think this is a good starting point. I like the Meddling Mages simply because having permanent-based hate combined with countermagic gives you a much stronger combo/control package. The card I'm really missing is Misdirection. I'd love to have 1-2 with all the Shardless BUG running around, but Blood Moon works against them too. I just don't want to shell out a cool benny frank apiece for them on MTGO. I really want to include Vendilion Clique, but it's a bit of a nonbo with the Ancient Tomb. I have been trying to squeeze some Gitaxian Probes in there as well, but can't find the spot right now. Maybe -1 Daze and -1 Fire // Ice or -1 Pyroblast. What do you guys think? The deck has a lot of game, and the win on the spot potential is very high. What do you guys think?

[tarmogoat]

Ok, guys, i believe you :D

Btw., twin doesn't work on clique because of legend rule. I mean, it can work if you sac original clique, but that's bad.

It actually works like this:

- You control a twinned clique
- You activate clique's ability to create a token copying itself
- The copy enters the battlefield
- Its ability triggers, but it's not placed onto the stack until...
- ... SBA are checked and the legend rule applies (you choose to sac the token)
- The ability is placed on the stack
- Valuetown

@One with nothing: Blood Moon is nice, but I think I'd also be bring Meddling Mage in most MUs where I'd bring Moon, and that's a nombo with no basic Plains (which I wouldn't play at all). I don't think the deck needs to go all in (like it used to be in modern) or tempo (like is now in modern), but rather a control deck with a combo finish and a value package potential (twinning snaps/cliques). EE mainboard is plain Awesome, and will provide many G1 wins out of nowhere with the digging power the deck has. I've played against shardless bug 10 matches and won 7, including wins when my opponent resolved up to 3 Ancestral Visions, that is just HUGE. Jace > Blood Moon in that MU. This was post DTT ban. I don't believe I am afraid of BUG but more afraid of Tempo (UR/RUG/Grixis/Jeskai Delvers), MUD and prison decks.

[One With Nothing]

Thanks for the tips! Like I said, the side is really weak, as I threw this all together yestserday and have only tested about 10 matches thusfar. Are there any raw card advantage cards you feel would be a good fit? Also, how do you feel about the inclusion of Ancient Tomb? I like it because it lets you accelerate into a powerful card and doesn't usually impact your mana in a negative way at all. Do you think any other utility lands might be useful here? My short list includes:

Desolate Lighthouse
Riptide Laboratory
Karakas
Academy Ruins (for EE of course)

[tarmogoat]

Thanks for the tips! Like I said, the side is really weak, as I threw this all together yestserday and have only tested about 10 matches thusfar. Are there any raw card advantage cards you feel would be a good fit? Also, how do you feel about the inclusion of Ancient Tomb? I like it because it lets you accelerate into a powerful card and doesn't usually impact your mana in a negative way at all. Do you think any other utility lands might be useful here? My short list includes:

Desolate Lighthouse
Riptide Laboratory
Karakas
Academy Ruins (for EE of course)

I wouldn't know, the only way of getting a proper answer is through thorough and extensive testing.

I will quote the guy that played Jeskai Twin and leave a link to the original post in the 'Tournament Reports' forum:


Hello everybody, I’m Max Ansbro, the Splinter Twin guy from Legacy Champs. I finished 7th out of 744. I’ve seen a few things online speculating about the deck, so I figured I’d write this tournament report.

First, a few questions I’ve seen:

Am I a die-hard Modern Twin player?
No. I actually despise the Modern format. I hate it because every mana efficient library manipulation and draw smoothing spell is banned. Have you ever cast Serum Visions? Card is miserable.

Is the deck just a worse Show and Tell variant?
I am not quite sure. I think the deck does a similar combo thing, but it attacks in much different ways.

How much of the deck’s success came from the opponent being taken by surprise by a rogue Twin deck in Legacy.
A huge amount, as you will see in the match details below.


So here’s the deck:

3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Splinter Twin

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wear//Tear
2 Misdirection
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Staticaster



Deck Development: the point of this section is to dispel any kind of belief that I know anything about Twin. Read it if you’re curious how the list came together or where it’s been so you can take it further yourself.

Full disclosure: I’ve actually never played Twin before outside of Cube. I started fooling around with a Twin list online the weekend before the event. I’m usually a Miracles player, and I believe Miracles is the best deck in the format right now. However, everyone is gunning for Miracles right now. Even other Miracles players are metagaming their decks to gain edges in the mirror. I decided I wanted to try doing something more fun for Eternal Weekend.

Let’s be honest, the idea if far from original. At one point or another, every Modern or Legacy player has thought about porting Twin over to Legacy. In Modern, the deck lets you play either a combo game or a strong control game, often switching roles mid-game. Surely adding Legacy power level cards can do nothing but make this game plan much stronger? Those were my thoughts going in a week ago and I (very briefly) tested several ideas, my conclusions about all of which may be very wrong:

- I originally had three Young Pyromancer in the maindeck alongside four Deceiver Exarch and no Pestermite. I went away from that because I decided that the deck doesn’t produce Pyromancer tokens fast enough to compete with the real Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor decks of the format. Pestermite, I think, allows for decently powerful beats in the air in a midrange-control game as well as having the Twin combo upside.

- There are only two Snapcaster Mage in my deck. I tried more (he is the all-star of the Modern deck after all), but I felt that I don’t churn though cards fast enough to support multiple Snapcasters and three Dig Through Time. Also, I only own two paper Snapcasters so I’m clearly biased.

- What should the sideboard look like? Playing a rogue UR deck (which can splash any third color basically for free) I felt like I could transform into anything. Maybe become a UR Delver deck post board? Maybe go the other direction and cast Show and Tell? We have blue anyway and we want to see a lot of cards, why not side into Counter Top? The miracles player in me wanted to be more controlling post board, but I wanted to keep the potential to combo and a decent beat down plan. I felt that the hate people were bringing in against the Twin combo would simultaneously hit CounterTop, so I went away from that. I experimented with a Trinket Mage package, which was more cute than good. Two days before the event, I decided on this cookie-cutter sideboard build.

- I decided I wanted White as my third color. Ethersworn Canonist seemed like the best option against a combo field dominated by Omni-tell and Storm. She even does well against Elves. I also wanted Wear//Tear against the field of Miracles and the recent slew of Stoneforge Mystic decks that have been doing well. I experimented with splashing green for Krosan Grip and Sylvan Library, both of which were very powerful. I decided against that plan because casting Arcane Lab for three mana seemed terrible vs. Storm and Krosan Grip, at three mana, was a little slower than I wanted it to be.



And so I walked into the event early Saturday. Well, I didn’t exactly walk. I was a little late, so I jogged in at 9:07 and frantically scribbled down my deck-registration. I got some questioning looks as I shuffled through Twin pieces at the table, which made me smile.

Round 1: Four color Delver
As I said, porting Twin into Legacy is far from an original idea. Decks like this four color delver have to be a big reason nobody expects it to do well. A fast clock backed up by Wastelend to stop you casting your four mana enchantment, Daze, Peirce and Abrupt Decay? Oh boy. The deck even features Young Pyromancer, making the board control backup plan difficult.

Game 1: I died to the typical Delver plan of “make a 1 drop then never allow your opponent to resolve a spell.” I suppose that’s what happens when you try to cast 3s and 4s through Daze and Wasteland.

Game 2: Didn’t go as poorly for me. My opponent kept a cantrip heavy hand and didn’t get out of the gates as quickly, which gave me time to cast a Vendilion Clique to clear the way and pick a spot with two counters backup for the combo. My first time Twinning someone!

Game 3: Started promisingly, however this time my opponent was more prepared. Clique revealed multiple Abrupt Decays and I lost a counter battle over Young Pyromancer. As the game went longer, I got flooded by lands and Elemental tokens and was defeated.


Record: 0-1. Still live for top8… just need 10 wins in a row!


Round 2: RuG Delver
RuG is a frightening deck for anyone whose plan involves tapping lands for mana in order to put spells onto the stack.

Game 1: This game was won off the back of the “Miracles read.” One of my opening lands was the Tundra, and each spell I played was a part of the Miracles deck. He seemed quite surprised when Exarch arrived to tap his lethal attacker and then Twin happened.

Game 2: I was RuG’d out of the game. Stifle + Wastelanded and I died with two lands looking at my three drops and four drops in hand.

Game 3: I kept a two lander with a Brainstorm. He opened on Nimble Mongoose. I Fetched up a basic island when he tapped out for Delver and a Ponder on turn two (playing around Stifle), cast my Brainstorm on turn three hoping to find land #3… and missed. Brainstorm locked. In desperation to buy time, I cast Ambush Snapcaster Mage to try to trade with Goose on his attack. Mage resolved, but he had a Lightning Bolt to clear the path. Well, we have two Misdirections in the sideboard for a reason. I Misdirected the Bolt to his Delver, traded with Goose, and hoped to draw out of the lock. The third card down was a Relic of Progenitus, perfect for keeping his new Mongoose in check even if it wasn’t the land I wanted. Poping Relic found Brainstorm! Perfect! I cast it… for no lands. Locked again, I was sure I was destined for an 0-2 drop. I did find Force and Counterspell, which traded with Goyf and another Delver over the next few turns.
His second Mongoose took a few turns to grow to a 3/3 after the Relic, so I wasn’t completely dead when I finally found land #3. At this point, I had two Deceiver Exarchs in hand alongside Jace. It turns out that Exarch in Yoked Ox mode is quite good at keeping 3/3 at bay, and Jace ended up arriving and taking over the game.


*whew* Record: 1-1


Round 3: Goblin Prison
Game 1: Opponent on the play led with a turn 1 Chalice on 1. My hand included Exarch, Twin, Force, blue card and three lands. I figured I was going against MuD, which plays real high impact spells I’d rather force. Chalice resolved. Turn two he played Blood Moon. Oh. Well, one basic island is all I need for the combo, so I fetched one and let it resolve. Two turns later he was reading Splinter Twin.

Game 2: It turns out that Twin has the advantage over other combo decks of not caring about Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere or Blood Moon. Game two went much the same way as game one.


Record: 2-1


Round 4: Dredge
Game 1: I don’t think Dredge is as unstoppable as other people seem to. But sometimes they just have the nuts and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. I was killed on turn two.

Game 2: I boarded in the two Flusterstorms, Pyroblasts, and Relics. What do I want to counter? Anything! He discarded Grave Troll turn one and tried to resolve two draw spells on turn two, both of which I countered. This bought enough time to Twin him out of the game.

Game 3: Sometimes Dredge has the nuts, and sometimes it mulls and dies to a single counter. Turn one he cast Putrid Imp, which I Forced (my Force policy in the matchup is to force the first thing to go onto the stack). Turn two he cast Golgari Thug, then Stinkweed Imp. This is not the Big Dredge Machine of legend, and was easily dispatched.


Record: 3-1.


Round 5: Death and Taxes.
Game 1: Opponent kept a seemly land-light hand that got going slowly after I forced his Aether Vial. I had a bit of time to cantrip and set up, bolting a Stoneforge Mystic and assembling some basic lands. By the time he reached three lands and played Thalia, I had Deceiver + Twin and five mana ready to go. Ironically, Thalia prevented him from casting any of the three Swords to Plowshares in his hand.

Game 2: In my effort to sideboard for Monastery Mentor, Stoneforge Mystic and the various tribal decks, I had quite a few heymakers to bring into this matchup. 2x Sulfur Elemental, 2x Wear//Tear and Izzet Staticaster all came in off the bench, but I didn’t need any of them. Opponent mulled to oblivion looking for interaction with Twin and died easily.


Record: 4-1


Round 6: Death and Taxes again.
Game 1: This match was much more competitive than the previous one. Aether Vial resolved along with Thalia and Vryn Wingmare. My opponent also had Port rolling, making everything hard to cast. I cast Clique, Hoping to take a single disruption piece and trade with Wingmare. This would buy me enough time and mana to untap, take a Thalia hit, end of turn play Pestermite, tap Port (giving me an extra mana on my turn) and slam Twin. However, Clique showed double Flickerwisp. With Vial on three, this was one too many thing for Pestermite to tap and I died one mana short.

Game 2: Bringing in all my hate again, I had a much easier time setting up the combo. Wear Vial into Snapcaster Wear Vial stopped instant speed uncounterable Flickerwisps from being a problem, I cliqued away one Swords to Plowshares and had the Force for his second.

Game 3: This game was much easier than the previous two. I played Sulfur Elemental and all my opponent’s creatures died. Then I played a second Sulfur Elemental, just because I was feeling vindictive.


Record: 5-1. Over the hump into the second half of the tournament and still not dead!


Round 7: UW Stuff.
Game 1: Both of us were confused by the other’s deck. My opponent opened with a Plains into Aether Vial. I figured I was against the third Death and Taxes in a row. I went Island into Ponder. Turn two, opponent cracked a Polluted Delta, cast Meddling Mage and named Show and Tell. *whew* good thing I don’t play that. The game progressed, I fetched the Tundra and kept casting cantrips. He probed me and saw a Counterspell and Jace, so he vialed in another Meddling Mage and named Terminus. Gotcha. Three turns later he was dead to Twin.

Game 2: I wasn’t sure what exactly my opponent was doing, so I brought in the same package as the Death and Taxes games. What’s the worst that could happen? My opponent seemed light on lands and didn’t do much after I used EE to bomb his opening Vial. Sulfur Elemental arrived and beat in for three a turn, I fetched a bunch of basic land against his board of Tundra, double Wasteland and Port. I assumed he was locked out of casting Meddling Mages by his one colored source. Then he cast Armageddon, taking me by surprise. My hand was Bolt, second Sulfur Elemental, Force, Dig. I had more than enough cards in the graveyard to Dig, I could even have hardcast Force. But instead I decided to bolt his face and cast the second Elemental, letting Geddon resolve. Two turns later he died.


Record: 6-1. This is, somehow, turning into a real run.


Round 8: Shardless BuG
Game 1: So Mr. Fancy Twin player, you think your goofy combo deck can play a long, grindy game, eh? Well, this game was long and grindy, and my opponent got the better of me. There are a few decisions I could have made different which may have mattered, but by and large he was in control from start to finish.

Game 2: My plan going into this game was to shave the combo package for the two Misdirections, two Relics and a Wear//Tear (against whatever evil was lurking in his sideboard). This game was also long and grindy, but with one difference. Before Shardless could bury me under Hymn and Liliana and establish a threat, I managed to stick a Jace. This put the pressure on him to get on the board and get rid of Jace before he was buried under my card advantage, which involved him tapping too low to hold up Decay and losing to Twin.

Game 3: Opponent kept a greedy seven including Ancestral Visions and no second land. I Misdirected his Visions. The game was basically over then, but it still went on to include Jace standing tall. Once again, Shardless needed to over-extend to pressure Jace and lost to Twin.


Record: 7-1. At this point, top 8 actually started to feel less like a dream and more like a goal.


Round 9: Merfolk.
Game 1: My opponent played a bunch of merfolk. I played cantrips, Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin. He died.

Game 2: I believe I mis-evaluated my place in this matchup. I boarded out a few combo pieces to bring in the two Pyroblasts, and two Wear//Tear, intending to play a more controlling game vs. The Folk. I ended up short on mana and dying to True Name.

Game 3: I decided I’d rather play/defend my combo than try to defend Jace against Mutavault and True Name. I boarded out Jace for the two Misdirections and brought the combo back in over a Dig and the Wear//Tear’s. This turned out to save me, I spent the Pyroblasts to kill off fish, killed off a Phantasmal Image with an Exarch trigger, and finally put Twin on Exarch with Misdirection backup.
This, of course, resulted in the Misdirection judge call. Opponent cast Swan Song to counter Twin, which I Misdirected. He, confused, asked what I was Misdirecting it to, so I told him it was to Misdirection itself. He called a judge to see if this was something I was allowed to do. The judge in question apparently has never seen Joe Lossett’s stream and decided that it’s not a legal play. I appealed, the floor judge was overruled, and Twin resolved.


Record: 8-1. Now, two years ago at Legacy Champs, I had a camera feature match that I thought was a win-and-in. I was at X-1 and it was the second to last round. I ended up winning.


Round 10: Lands.
Game 1: There’s a reason they end GPs after nine rounds. Fatigue was setting in hard and everyone was starting to play fast and loose. Game 1 wasn’t pretty from me. I punted hard and the top of my deck was kind enough to get me there anyway vs. an opponent with very little real interaction.

Game 2: I boarded in my Relics, Wear//Tears and a Misdirection (anything has to be better than Bolt and Pyroblast vs. Land). This game was long and grindy. I fell behind the Waste/Loam game and couldn’t find a Relic to break it up, all the while being Ported down and my opponent clearly leaving up Korsan Grip. Marit Lage arrived, which I was able to stall for two turns with a Deceiver tap and Clique chump (which confirmed his 2x Grips in hand). I couldn’t find Jace to unsummon the 20/20 in time (which would only have delayed things an extra turn) and died.

Game 3: This time things went quite poorly for the Lands player. I had a Relic on turn one, effectively turning off his Loam plan. Then he played Sphere of Resistance, which turned out to be a much bigger problem for him than it was for me. He tried to Waste me down from sufficient mana to cast my spells, but I found enough land to overcome that. I cast an Exarch, and in an effort to not be dead to Twin, he crop rotated for Glacial Chasm (down two more lands for him). I played Jace instead, and Fatesealed away any lands that tapped for mana (which seems an odd thing to do against the Lands deck, but I did it anyway). He went for a desperation 20/20, which I tapped with another Exarch and Jace unsummoned. He finally couldn’t pay for Glacial Chasm and I Twin’d him.


Record: 9-1. Two years ago after I won the penultimate round, it turned out I couldn’t draw into the top8. What followed was the singular worst match of Magic I’ve ever played in my life. In the present, because of my round 1 loss, I had the worst breakers (by a mile) and got the pair down. Once again, no drawing into top8 for me. All I wanted was to not punt it away quite as savagely as before.


Round 11: Miracles.
This match was the on camera feature. You can find it on the CardTitan Twitch.tv past broadcasts (http://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/12221746, starting at around 9:00:00) (and I’m sure it’ll be up on YouTube soon). I won’t go into too much detail about it as you can just see for yourself what happened. In theory, I think Twin has all the tools to pressure Miracles from multiple angels and, in the end, grind the deck out. I haven’t done nearly enough testing to say for certain, but that was my theory going into this.

Game 1: We played a grinder, in which Miracles ran out of cards first and couldn’t answer Twin. Exactly according to plan.

Game 2: I played a horrific game of Magic. Fortunitely for me, you can’t see too many of my punts on camera (as my hand isn’t clearly visible) so I’ll plead the 5th on telling you about it. Suffice it to say, a reasonable wizard would have won that game from my seat.

Game 3: I firmly am in the camp of “would rather lose than mull.” My seven card hand was double Pyroblast, Force, Jace, Deceiver, Twin and one land. In other words, if I draw land or cantrips (half my deck) this hand is the nuts. What can I say? It was round 11, I was tired and reckless, so I kept it.
People have been talking about Miracles punting. It doesn’t actually matter which land he tapped for the Flusterstorm, as he wouldn’t have had enough to cast Swords or REB out of the yard (assuming I hadn’t counter-punted, described later). His real punt was casting Snapcaster at all. If he doesn’t do that, his REB kills Exarch and my Force + REB can’t overcome his Flusterstorm in hand. This doesn’t excuse me from my punt to make the mistap relevant. I should have let Snapcaster resolve after the Flusterstorm and Forced the Swords, which would have tapped him out. I left myself open to a whole slew of cards in his hand, none of which he had. This made me the lucky winner.


Record: 10-1. Into Top 8! That night, I saw I was against Grixis Delver. Talking about it with my friends, I’m pretty sure it’s a very rough matchup for me. It’s hard for my deck to play the control game against Zombie Fish and Young Pyromancer, who are too big to bolt or make a bunch of friends pre-bolt. It’s also hard to play a Combo game against a deck with fast pressure, Wasteland, permission and discard out of the board.


Top 8:
Game 1: My draw didn’t come together at all and I got run over by Young Pyro and his Elemental friends. Just that easy.
Game 2: I mulled to five (my first time going below six card the whole event, lucky me on the entire run). It doesn’t start off well for me, I Pyro’d an early Delver and put together enough land drops to try for the combo. Given that his many card hand had absolutely nothing, I had outs. However, he did have something, and I was defeated.

Record: Dead in top 8.



Some impressions on the deck after playing it for 12 rounds:
- It does a very powerful thing, and it can do it with multiple lines of defense.
- It is a very slow combo. In the many games I Twin'd people, I never felt like I wanted to (or really needed to) before turn six.
- The ability to tap down an opponent’s mana source on end step with Pestermite / Exarch is huge. It forces them to play awkwardly all game. This probably doesn’t come as a surprise to any Modern players but it struck me as interesting.
- The “control plan” didn’t so much involve Jace going all the way or getting there with Clique and Snappy beats like I thought it would. Far more often, it involved forcing my opponents into vulnerable positions so I could combo them out.
- Vendilion Clique is amazing in the deck. I don’t think I’d want to put a third in, but I can’t see ever cutting one.

The deck going forward:
- I would rework the manabase to have another basic mountain. I played one (because I only own one altered mountain) and there were times when I desperately wanted another. Also, maybe a 21st or 22nd land in general. Or maybe a pair or Preordains. I felt a bit land-light at times through the day, although this isn’t nearly a large enough sample size to say.
- The deck needs a better plan against Delver, especially the Young Pyromancer versions. Perhaps that involves playing our own in the 75 to fight them on the ground? Perhaps that involves playing Pyroclasms and planning to counter Zombie Fish on the stack? There are plenty of options to experiment with, but I speculate that the answer isn’t trying to force the combo through faster.
- In the grindy matchups, I wanted another grinding tool. I think I would find room for a third Jace in the sideboard, or perhaps another Snapcaster in the main.
- I didn’t play against a single combo deck. I feel the deck has the tools to beat Omni and Storm, but this is untested.
- Perhaps focusing on the Twin aspect of the deck isn’t the right approach. Maybe all we need with Dig and Jace, Brainstorm and Ponder as dig spells are 4 of the Twin creatures and 2 Splinter Twins. This is what I was shaving down to post board for most matchups and I never had a problem finding what I needed (Dig is a hell of a Magic card). The remaining space could easily be used to insert another form of threat. Maybe the bonus Jace/Snapcaster I mentioned above. Maybe a completely different direction, like Stoneforge Mystic or TarmoTwin. Maybe even Deathrite Shaman and a black splash for a discard package.

Link: Twin Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29844-Legacy-Champs-Top-8-with-Splinter-Twin)

Also the video: Twin vs Miracles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAB_zgQhKss)
Video starts at ~21min and gameplay at ~30min.

I PMd Max and asked him to swing by this thread to give his opininon/feedback and help develop the deck, hopefully he will show up and give some insight.

[wizard_of_gore]

@tarmogoat

Oh, i really didn't saw that, thanx. It's even better then

[wizard_of_gore]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95879

[Hopo]

You started a topic and have exactly zero words to say about it. Maybe your post was not so needed, then.

[Dice_Box]

So a Chalice Moon deck winning with Twin? Well I guess when all the other combos have been tried you see if there are any others that will work.

[Bobmans]

This is.... the beginning of the end.... let's hope it doesn't happen again.

[MGB]

Are there any mono red creatures that can make Twin combo work?

The more I think about it, the more it seems as if you could make a serious Dragon Stompy or Faerie Stompy deck with the Twin combo stapled onto it. Do you need to play U/R or can you go mono red with Blood Moons and Magus of the Moon and Imperial Recruiter?

[Namida]

Zealous Conscripts is the only red card I can think of that works with Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki.

[Fatal]

There is also white well working Village Bell-Ringer white also open way to E.Tutor.

[HNana]

Been running Jeskai Twin at my local tournies. I won 2 of them in a row 3-0 using this list the first time:
https://twitter.com/HBSTnipponbashi/status/675512582573191168
and then replacing a canonist with a null rod the second time.
Tourney 1:
Round 1 - slivers
Game 1 - I have two twins in my hand and jace, i get out a deceiver to sit and block slivers. He fow my first twin, i have enough life to bait out another fow with jace, and then the next turn I play splinter twin and combo off.

I side out a lot of counters and side in pyroclasm, containment priest, from the ashes and izzet staticaster

Game 2 - He gets out crystaline sliver and a muscle sliver. He caverns in a galerider and I don't have enough blockers so I die.
Game 3 - I manage to wipe his board with pyroclasm twice. I cast from the ashes, it resolves, I wipe out his land base, get jace and then combo off the next turn.
Won 1-2, record 1-0

Round 2 - UW Countertop Mentor
Game 1 - I mull to 6, he keeps. He's on the play, gets turn 2 stoneforge. I fow, he fow back. He gets countertop early, I manage to find enough lands to play a jace and he can't find a 4. I have an exarch out. He taps out for a jace, brainstorms, passes the turn. I use my jace +2 to confirm there's no 4 on the top and then I combo out.
I side out some singletons of counters, ponder, twin, exarch. I side in both wear/tear, both pyroblast, and a staticaster.
Game 2 - He gets countertop early again, and then resolves an ethersworn canonist. I have an exarch and a jace (again jace through CB/top) He uses all his countermagic to stop one of my wear/tear. I play another one the next turn on his CB and canonist. I then combo off a turn or two later thanks to spell snaring his snapcaster mage and then fow his stp while i have pyroblast mana up still.

won 2-0 record 2-0

Round 3 - Lands
Game 1 - He gets out some ports and a wasteland but doesn't find his combo. I get a jace out and brainstorm long enough to combo him out.
I side out pyroblasts, spell snare, counterspell, flusterstorms. I side in wear/tear, from the ashes, rest in peace.
Game 2 - He manages to get 3 ports and locks me down for a bit. I eventually draw enough lands to cast a jace. I get two RiP out making loam useless and pfire bad. I wear/tear his exploration and mox diamond and I eventually combo off before I was able to find from the ashes.

won 3-0 record 3-0

Tourney 2: As i said before, I only changed canonist -> null rod

Round 1 - Painter:
Game 1 - I'm on the play. drop some lands. I have island ancient tomb, volcanic out and another island in my hand. I tapped the island for a ponder, i have both combo pieces but no RR. My opponent taps his mountain and city of traitors for a blood moon, in response i play pestermite and tap his ancient tomb (that he wanted red with). Because of the blood moon, my ancient tomb makes red and I was able to combo off and he couldn't pyroblast.
Side out flusterstorms, pyroblast. Side in wear/tear, null rod, staticaster.
Game 2 - He gets out magus and revoker (on jace), and I manage to kill revoker by using a deceiver exarch. I play jace, and just take full control. I combo off a couple turns later. Getting rid of pyroblast/flusterstorms makes a big difference and it felt like just about every card was good.
won 2-0 record 1-0


Round 2 - Sneak and show
Game 1 - My opponent durdles for a couple turns then drops a boseiju. I play a pestermite to tap it during his upkeep. He tries to s/t anyways and I counter it. He isn't able to get anything established and I drop a jace and combo off a couple turns later.
Side out bolts, a splinter twin, and an exarch. Side in flusters, containment priest, pyroblast, a pyroclasm (in case of young pyro) and a wear/tear.
Game 2 - He manages to drop a sneak attack but has nothing he can sneak in. We both draw a bunch of lands until I draw a brainstorm which gets me jace and a pestermite. I put back lands, cast jace and wait. He finds emrakul, sneaks him in, i play pestermite and tap his krul. I then combo off the next turn with counterspell backup.
won 2-0 record 2-0

Round 3 - Elves
Game 1 - I mull to 6 and draw 5 lands in a row when I need gas, I scoop before my opponent knows what I'm actually on. (He thinks its sneak/show at this point)
Side out a twin, a pyroblast, both flusterstorms, spell snare. Side in pyroclasm, containment priest, a wear/tear (in case of choke) and staticaster.
Game 2 - I mull to 6 again and keep a shaky keep with a single mountain but two pyroclasms in hand. Scry 1 gives me an island on the top, and i pyroclasm him after he dumps his hand. I get out staticaster and he scoops. (he saw my plan when he thoughtseized me later on tho)
He switches around sideboard cards
Game 3 - I have a solid 7 cards. He gets out a buncha guys, I keep myself alive with exarch and playing a jace to brainstorm and eat a bit of damage (attacking jace for 3 instead of me when I was at 12 life or so). I find a pyroclasm the next turn, wipe his board, play another jace, he slaughter games me and removes my 3 splinter twins from the deck (none in hand thankfully). He was already at a low enough life where it didn't matter at that point, and I proceed to beat with clique, pestermite, and containment priest for the win.
won 2-1 record 3-0


Overall thoughts: the deck is really good, it's super controlly but can combo out really quick. Makes for some nice comebacks. 3 JTMS is the right choice. He shows up all the time and is amazing. Most of the games I won at the first tourney were thanks to Jace.
Some other nice parts about the deck are the ability to play some brutal sideboard cards thanks to white. I've got a lot of stuff that beats a lot of stuff. Things the deck has a hard time with: resolved goyf (tho rip kinda helps there), and TNN. A resolved TNN just means "ok I have to beat their clock" but chances are I lose if they resolve a TNN. Delver/daze decks can also be a little too quick for this deck. Sideboard helps but yeah.
Also my opponents not knowing what I'm on helps game 1. It also helps because my opponents don't quite know how to sideboard against the deck. Nobody really uses it so things like spellskite and specific splinter twin hate don't show up that often.
Pestermite/exarch are good for being able to do "tap/untap ~" shenanigans. Almost everything in the deck has flash except for jace, ponder, twin, and a few sideboard cards. I don't know how I feel about the chalice/blood moon version but if I decide to get some chalice of the void I may try it out. For now, I prefer the grindy control version! Thoughts, comments?

[leegoo]

Zealous Conscripts is the only red card I can think of that works with Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki.
battered golem?

[movingtonewao]

Is this thread still alive? Now that twin is banned in modern and prices have plummeted, I'm open to grabbing a playset and giving this a spin.

[keys]

The only problem with Twin in Legacy is the abundance of tempo strategies. But if you go U/R with Blood Moon I think it's got potential.

Here's the core:

6 Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite
4-5 Snapcaster Mage/Vendilion Clique

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
5-6 other counters (Counterspell, Remand, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Pyroblast...)

2-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Lightning Bolt
1-2 utility removal (Engineered Explosives, Fire/Ice, Vapor Snag, Grim Lavamancer...)

4 Splinter Twin

20 Land

Maindeck Blood Moon? Third color splash? More creatures to compliment the tempo strategy? There are lots of directions you can go.

[movingtonewao]

thanks for the reply, I swear I could've heard a pin drop before this.

Let me try to summarize my research so far on this deck, the ways this could go are:
1) chalice of the void and/or blood moon - lock pieces
2) tempo style - snapcasters and the like
3) grindy control style - sometimes with countertop, sometimes stoneblade

I deciphered HNana's list a couple posts down, which is the grindy control will list it here for reference:

20 land
2 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
4 island
1 plains
2 mountain
2 ancient tomb
1 tundra
4 volcanic island

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 flusterstorm
1 spell snare
1 pyroblast
2 counterspell
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
3 pestermite
3 deceiver exarch
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 splinter twin

SB:
2 pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
2 from the ashes
1 flusterstorm
1 izzet staticaster
2 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
2 rest in peace
2 wear // tear

has anyone tried the blood moon version? I would really like to go in that direction.

[wizard_of_gore]

Ok, guys. Since my deck in modern got hammered, and I already experimented with legacy twin in past, i think it's grixis shell is way to go. First of because of mainboard options to fight with opponents disruption, and secondary because of very adaptable/ transformative sideboard options. Young pyromancer got weakened with treasure cruise and DTT ban last year, but I think that loss can be substituted with instant win combo as alternate way to win. Proactive disruption in form of cabal therapy coupled with tokens is way to fight against natural nemesis of deck (abrupt decay), and young pyromancer and JTMS are another way to win aside from combo. Besides that, splinter twin enchanting snapcaster mage or young pyromancer can be cute if deceiver exarch is not available in moment, and I think its very important since splinter twin alone can be very bad sitting in hand as a dead card waiting only for exarch/pestermite to win. Speaking of that, one more thing - we are playing brainstorms, ponders and gitaxian probes, and to some extent JTMS, so we have way more approaches to find combo pieces, so additional tappers like fragile pestermite is too much in my opinion.

So, this is my take on splinter twin:

4x deceiver exarch
4x young pyromancer
2x snapcaster mage

4x brainstorm
4x fow
4x lightning bolt

4x ponder
4x gitaxian probe
4x cabal therapy

3x splinter twin

2x jace TMS

3x volcanic island
2x underground sea
1x badlands
1x mountain
2x island
12x fetch lands


I'm not bothering with sb currently, since it can be opted in many ways, but we all know grixis have versatile tools to adapt in any metagame.

PS. Sorry for my bad english

[Echelon]

You might want to drop the Bolts for a set of Dazes. You need to be able to fight counterwars to resolve/protect your combo.

[wizard_of_gore]

Daze can be option, but only in all-in combo way, but i don't think it can work in legacy. I like to keep set of bolts in mainboard as a versatile tool against creatures and planeswalkers. This is control/combo deck capable to grind game and it's potential to win even if combo is disrupted in some way make it playable in legacy environment. Besides that, there is cabal therapy to ensure counter war don't happen.

[HNana]

Bolt is really good. Daze is good if you're on the "all-in" plan, where you just wanna combo and kill as fast as possible. That deck looks a little more controlley and way more capable of killing with damage. Because of that, the bolts are very important. Being able to take out a mother of runes on turn 1 with a bolt is huge. Killing an opponent's JTMS in response to a +0 is really good. Being able to go bolt snap bolt for that last 6 damage is nice.

Also with no delver/mongoose etc turn 1 play, daze gets a lot worse. Yeah there's cabal therapy into daze, but you still don't have an actual threat out on the board if youre dazing on turn 1. A young pyro into daze is obviously the dream, but young pyro into a bolt is also super good.

[jedi_gof]

HNana

Do you have a current list?
As I have contemplated running some twin and so far your results are the most promising it seems:-)

[HNana]

My current list:

20 land
2 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
4 island
1 plains
2 mountain
2 ancient tomb
1 tundra
4 volcanic island

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 flusterstorm
1 spell snare
1 pyroblast
2 counterspell
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
3 pestermite
3 deceiver exarch
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 splinter twin

SB:
2 pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
2 from the ashes
1 flusterstorm
1 izzet staticaster
2 containment priest
1 null rod
2 rest in peace
2 wear // tear


Went 3-0 again at the last tourney I played in. Beat Bant Reliquary Retreat/Brave Sir 2-1. My jace was stronger than his, and the only scary card he had was TNN, which got REB both times he tried to cast it. he got me with a SoFI game 2, but other than that, I was able to take care of his stuff pretty easily with counters/bolt.

Beat goblins 2-0
They can't interact game 1 with the combo. Game 2 They can't beat pyroclasm/staticaster, i just wipe their board and beat face. Pretty bad matchup for them overall.

Beat Miracles 2-0
I just held up countermagic for counterbalance, and then resolved jace and was able to get enough cards to keep my opponent from really doing anything. It really comes down to counterbalance more than anything.

Funnily enough, I'm gonna try the chalice blood moon version tonight. I don't expect as good of results as usual, but it looked fun enough lol.

[monovfox]

The from the ashes seems tech as hell! Seems amazing against shardless

[wizard_of_gore]

Guys, from play testing i realized that 6 tappers is too much. This isn't modern, we have load of cantrips to find what we need, so is it really necessary to play fragile pestermites? :eyebrow: Who else think that 4 deceiver exarch and 3 splinter twin is enough ?

[HNana]

The from the ashes seems tech as hell! Seems amazing against shardless

It's great against BUG, Junk, Esper, lands, MUD, 12post, rug delver etc. It's practically a one sided armageddon, and if i replace my lands I use to play it, I can play jace on the same turn, too. It's sick.

I went 3-0 again at the local weekly with the blood moon version. https://twitter.com/HBSTnipponbashi/status/689797793209167872
"Moon Chalice Twin" is what I called it (the guy working at the store mistyped it I guess)

Round 1: vs Stiflenaut
This is normally a bad matchup with the control version. Maindeck Tropor orb is rough. Hushwing, too. They both suck cause it stops the combo, snapcaster, clique. Everything just gets weaker. However, it's different with this version.
Game 1 - I resolve a chalice on 1 turn 2 because of daze and misdirection backup. He can't do anything about it.
side out 2 impusle, pact of negation, 2 misdirection side in 3 ancient grudge and 2 EE
Game 2 - I resolve a blood moon turn 2, I ancient grudge his tropor orb, and he sits and passes for a few turns. Eventually I play chalice and he scoops.
WIN 2-0

Round 2 vs mono G 12post
This one was against my buddy.
Game 1 - I have the combo but not moon/chalice. He plays out 2 candelabra, he has a forest, a cloudpost, and a glimmerpost. He slows me down a lot with glacial chasm. I play twin on pestermite and just make copies during his upkeep to tap his candle/cloudpost. I play kiki-jiki for more denial. I play another exarch to tap him down one more turn when the chasm's cumulative upkeep gets too high, and then he scoops as I have the game next turn when I attack.
Side out some counters, misdirection, side in ancient grudge, sylvan library.
Game 2 - He krosan grips my early blood moon and gets out a prime time. He finds a chasm and there's no way I can hold off the titan for that long before he finds himself bigger guys.
Game 3 - I'm on the play. I have a nut draw, I get chalice on 1 out turn 1 thanks to mox diamond. I miss turn 2 land drop, but get turn 3 land drop. I play a blood moon, and then I combo out a couple turns later after he taps out for oracle of mul daya.
WIN 2-1

Round 3 vs lands
Game 1 - turn 2 blood moon
Side out - buncha counters except FOW, a pestermite, and an impusle.
Side in - relic, ancient grudge x3, krosan grip, surgical extraction
Game 2 - I have a land, a mox diamond, 2 brainstorms, and a good hand otherwise. Couldn't find the second land, I scoop.
Game 3 - I get out an early relic, and then a blood moon, he krosan grips. I surgical extract it. I see he has 2 surgical extraction, a pyroblast, nether void, exploration, and mox diamond. He casts nether void and I let it resolve. I keep going and then find another blood moon. I find a chalice on 1, which hits him hard because it shuts down his answers to my stuff. I get exarch a couple turns later, and because of nether void, he cant double punishing fire my guy, so I just go for the combo and he scoops when I play twin.
WIN 2-1


I got lucky playing against non-basic land heavy decks. The deck was cool. Chalice on 1 is rough for a lot of decks. Maindeck blood moon is rough, too. I enjoy the control version more (though I've been playing the control version a lot longer), but it is fun to just show up to a tourney with a chalice/moon deck and get free wins. The control version feels like a "splinter twin deck". This version feels like a chalice/moon deck (which it is), and the combo being secondary. Anyways, fun deck, I'll probably try it again next week.

[HNana]

Guys, from play testing i realized that 6 tappers is too much. This isn't modern, we have load of cantrips to find what we need, so is it really necessary to play fragile pestermites? :eyebrow: Who else think that 4 deceiver exarch and 3 splinter twin is enough ?

(sorry to double post)
Pestermite is good for the control version because it's a flier. There's not nearly as many bolts in this format. It trades with delver, clique, etc. Flying is pretty important for attacking too, as it goes over stuff. Hitting for 1 a turn with exarch is whatever, but 2 damage in the air is a lot harder to deal with for a lot of legacy decks. Pestermite is better if you plan on winning without the combo. Beating with pestermite and clique is a pretty realistic gameplan. Plus, the tap ability comes in all sorts of handy, can stop attackers, tap a land, untap a different blocker if you have one, etc. Having 6 tappers is good pre-board. Against other control decks where the combo isn't as important, I tend to take out exarch first. Against punishing fire/burn/bolt decks I take out pestermite first. Having the option is nice.

Also more on the chalice moon version: Kiki-jiki showed up only once, and helped me win when he came but by no means was "wow thank god I found him!" I like him as a singleton though. Pact of negation never once showed up. Misdirection is good vs decay decks but honestly I don't really like it all that much. It acted as a FOW once, and was pitched to a fow again. Those are the cards I felt were the least helpful. I'm willing to give this exact same build another chance, but I don't know if I like 2 misdirection mainboard...

[keys]

I was having great results with the tempo RUG version of Twin in Modern before the banning and I think we could do a Legacy version as well:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Bounding Krasis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Splinter Twin
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod

I've found Krasis to be really strong with Tarmogoyf, being able to flash block Snapcasters, Thalias and other 2/xs, and untap Goyf in combat.

[Beefed]

Also more on the chalice moon version: Kiki-jiki showed up only once, and helped me win when he came but by no means was "wow thank god I found him!" I like him as a singleton though. Pact of negation never once showed up. Misdirection is good vs decay decks but honestly I don't really like it all that much. It acted as a FOW once, and was pitched to a fow again. Those are the cards I felt were the least helpful. I'm willing to give this exact same build another chance, but I don't know if I like 2 misdirection mainboard...

Good to see someone playing my deck. I call it Blood Twins.

Pact is one of the last cards in the deck. So good at times other times you question why it's in the deck. That said it's normally easy to pay its cost. In the Denver area on 2 misdirections - decay and red decks are very common. I only had one misdirection main deck but it's really good in the red match up so I moved it up to 2. As well it plays very much as fow 5-6 to get chalice on 1 or blood moon in play. The one change I'm going to do is exchange one ancient grudge for one krosan grip, I like the grudge better, but having a one of for top/counterbalance seems like it would be slightly better sb plan.

Your very right in my version being much more of a lock deck. I say it's a deck with three different combos in it. All three are game breaking against most all the field.

Hardest match ups?
Fish and red burn styles. Burn dies to chalice on 1 most the time but you have to get it, as well 4 dead moons main deck. As with many decks Wasteland can give you issues as well, I fetch basics more than anything in this deck. I feel you could budget deck the volcanic islands if you were trying to get into legacy.

Many matchup feel like byes.

Then you have grindy matchups where they have fow and things like decay and it's a play on postion. If I get a blood moon it's a win in most of these match ups.

Have fun Splinter Twin is for real in legacy.

Beefed

Scott Davis

[HNana]

Thanks for replying, Scott! Your deck was cool, I changed a few sideboard cards around but the maindeck remained the same. I'll remember to call it "Blood Twins" in the future!

The meta here at my LGS doesn't have a lot of burn. I haven't played against a burn deck in probably over a year, and I play legacy at least 2x a week. Merfolk shows up every once in a while, but for the most part it's a decent variety of "good" decks. Storm, miracles, d/t, elves etc.

I'll give the list another shot with the same build. I don't have magus of the moon at this point in time yet, which is the only reason my board is set up as it is. I should be getting a couple next month or so, but for now no magus. I'll update the next time I try the deck out, but yeah, twin is legit in legacy (though I've known that for a while).

[wizard_of_gore]

I was having great results with the tempo RUG version of Twin in Modern before the banning and I think we could do a Legacy version as well:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Bounding Krasis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Splinter Twin
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod

I've found Krasis to be really strong with Tarmogoyf, being able to flash block Snapcasters, Thalias and other 2/xs, and untap Goyf in combat.

I like idea of tarmotwin. What about adding some sugar (punishing fires) and make it more rough? Something like this:

4x Deceiver exarch
3x Tarmogoyf
2x snapcaster mage
1x vendilion clique

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of will
1x Pyroblast
1x Counterspell
2x Spell pierce / flusterstorm
3x Punishing fire
4x Lightning bolt

4x Ponder

2x Jace, TMS
3x Splinter twin

3x grove of the burnwillows
3x volcanic island
1x taiga
2x tropical island
1x mountain
2x island
10x fetchlands

More and more I'm realizing that twin can be splashed in a lot of blue midrange / control strategies as alternate win condition that don't mess with main win conditions. So, stoneblade twin, cb/top twin, mentor twin all comes to mind :cool:

[HNana]

If you're adding punishing fire, why not add dack fayden? Card is absurdly powerful with PFire.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Lost to this on MTGO. The version I played against was basically a better CounterTop deck against the Storm deck I was playing. If you're going to build this I recommend you look into going the CounterTop route because it adds a nice angle to the deck.

[wizard_of_gore]

Lost to this on MTGO. The version I played against was basically a better CounterTop deck against the Storm deck I was playing. If you're going to build this I recommend you look into going the CounterTop route because it adds a nice angle to the deck.

Do you have any info about list you played against ?

[wizard_of_gore]

Btw., I played on MTGO Tarmotwin/punishing fires version against burn and deathblade today and win all matches (2:0 against burn, 2:1 deatblade). Going combo route against burn both games in 4th turn ( bolting goblin guide first turn, and brainstorming second, with exarch in third G1). Against deathblade i lost G1 due to non-interactive hand sitting with double splinter twin in hand without cantrips or exarchs. I got smashed with batterskull and deathrite shamans. I didn't show him what i played, so i boarded out full set of fows and 1 of exarch and splinter twin leaving rest of pieces in mainboard just for surprise factor. At the end i grind him out with pyromancers, punishing fires and silvan library G2 and 3.

This is list of sideboard (mainboard list is posted previous posts above)

3x young pyromancer
1x sylvan library
2x pyroblast
1x flusterstorm
1x pithing needle
1x ancient grudge
2x surgical extraction
1x electrickery
1x misdirection
2x krosan grip

[keys]

Btw., I played on MTGO Tarmotwin/punishing fires version against burn and deathblade today and win all matches (2:0 against burn, 2:1 deatblade). Going combo route against burn both games in 4th turn ( bolting goblin guide first turn, and brainstorming second, with exarch in third G1). Against deathblade i lost G1 due to non-interactive hand sitting with double splinter twin in hand without cantrips or exarchs. I got smashed with batterskull and deathrite shamans. I didn't show him what i played, so i boarded out full set of fows and 1 of exarch and splinter twin leaving rest of pieces in mainboard just for surprise factor. At the end i grind him out with pyromancers, punishing fires and silvan library G2 and 3.

This is list of sideboard (mainboard list is posted previous posts above)

3x young pyromancer
1x sylvan library
2x pyroblast
1x flusterstorm
1x pithing needle
1x ancient grudge
2x surgical extraction
1x electrickery
1x misdirection
2x krosan grip

Very cool deck. Pyros in the board are a nice touch. Will give this a try.

One thing though-- drop the Taiga for another Volcanic or Island.

[wizard_of_gore]

Very cool deck. Pyros in the board are a nice touch. Will give this a try.

One thing though-- drop the Taiga for another Volcanic or Island.


Actually i droped one wooded foothills (from now i'm on 4x misty, 4x scalding tarn, 1x wooded foothills), and added one more JTMS. However, point is to reach 4 mana anyway in turn 4/5/6 for JTMS or combo and 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder is here to ensure that happen. With 22 lands i were little to flooded. I feel 21 is right number.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Do you have any info about list you played against ?

I just know that he had Twin combo, CounterTop, a lot of cantrips, Bolts, Snapcasters, Forces, and Flusterstorms at least post-SB. I'd imagine the core of the deck with cantrips, Forces, Bolts, and Snapcasters is usually going to be the same, but what I was impressed by was that CounterTop worked very well in his deck and felt like a more difficult matchup than traditional Miracles for my Storm deck.

[wasabizod]

I absolutely love this idea and I'm excited to test it out.

Is there any reason to run Simian Spirit Guide in the Blood Twin route? I imagine it can enable quicker Chalices/Moons, though I'm not sure how often that's an issue.

[A. Smith]

Hey guys,

Planning on running this list at a local even tomorrow:

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
1x Spells Snare
1x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
1x Pyroblast

2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Deceiver Exarch
2x Pestermite
4x Splinter Twin

3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra (for a white sideboard splash)
10x Fetches
4x Island
1x Mountain

Not sure about the sideboard yet, but it's probably going to be your usual assortment of hate and a few grindy cards for the ever-popular Miracles matchup.

The main thing I'm hesitating about is the amount of combo pieces. I might want to cut a Twin and two Pestermites for something like a Forked Bolt, the fourth Ponder, and an additional Jace, given how much filtering there is with Top. Any thoughts on this or the rest of the list?

[LandDestroyer]

Good to see someone playing my deck. I call it Blood Twins.

Pact is one of the last cards in the deck. So good at times other times you question why it's in the deck. That said it's normally easy to pay its cost. In the Denver area on 2 misdirections - decay and red decks are very common. I only had one misdirection main deck but it's really good in the red match up so I moved it up to 2. As well it plays very much as fow 5-6 to get chalice on 1 or blood moon in play. The one change I'm going to do is exchange one ancient grudge for one krosan grip, I like the grudge better, but having a one of for top/counterbalance seems like it would be slightly better sb plan.

Your very right in my version being much more of a lock deck. I say it's a deck with three different combos in it. All three are game breaking against most all the field.

Hardest match ups?
Fish and red burn styles. Burn dies to chalice on 1 most the time but you have to get it, as well 4 dead moons main deck. As with many decks Wasteland can give you issues as well, I fetch basics more than anything in this deck. I feel you could budget deck the volcanic islands if you were trying to get into legacy.

Many matchup feel like byes.

Then you have grindy matchups where they have fow and things like decay and it's a play on postion. If I get a blood moon it's a win in most of these match ups.

Have fun Splinter Twin is for real in legacy.

Beefed

Scott Davis

Glad you found the thread. I've been interested in twin in legacy for a while (ever since i played bug against elves and thought my modern twin deck would've had a better matchup) but they banned DTT right before I was going to build it. am debating building this version but my meta is heavy on:

Burn
Death & Taxes
Miracles
Nic-Fit
Goblins
And one guy who goes back and forth between Delver and show and tell.

I'm not sure this is good in that meta. Should I add in some dragons claw or something? :-P

[LandDestroyer]

Glad you found the thread. I've been interested in twin in legacy for a while (ever since i played bug against elves and thought my modern twin deck would've had a better matchup) but they banned DTT right before I was going to build it. am debating building this version but my meta is heavy on:

Burn
Death & Taxes
Miracles
Nic-Fit
Goblins
And one guy who goes back and forth between Delver and show and tell.

I'm not sure this is good in that meta. Should I add in some dragons claw or something? :-P

So I played this list yesterday. It did not go well. We had 15 people show up for Legacy FNM.

R1: Played against Death & Taxes (his first legacy event). While I could have played this differently his multiple wasteland port draw kept me from ever being able to do anything game 1. Game 2 his flickerwisp hosted my chalice/mox diamonds.

R2: Played against a burn player who I lent him his deck for his first legacy event as well (typically plays burn in standard/modern). I 2-0d him doing twin things.

R3: Grixis pyromancer. Game 1 he git probe/therapy me and like r1 i was drawing everything the turn after I needed it. Game 2 he got 2 DRS into play. Anyone who plans to play this needs to know to be more willing to do main phase brainstorm b/c you may draw into tomb/chalice which is an odd thing to draw if you're not used to playing this.

R4: Miracles. I won game 1 doing twin things. Once he realized what I was doing game 2/3 he made sure he had a 3cc card on top of library which makes the game unwinnable. We actually ended in a draw but he would have won. Don't just have twin creatures as your only win condition :(

The rest of the meta included
another burn
another D&T
4 color delver
infect
tin fins
b/g painter with reap
nic fit
3 other decks i didn't see

[HNana]

Hey guys,

Planning on running this list at a local even tomorrow:

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
1x Spells Snare
1x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
1x Pyroblast

2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Deceiver Exarch
2x Pestermite
4x Splinter Twin

3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra (for a white sideboard splash)
10x Fetches
4x Island
1x Mountain

Not sure about the sideboard yet, but it's probably going to be your usual assortment of hate and a few grindy cards for the ever-popular Miracles matchup.

The main thing I'm hesitating about is the amount of combo pieces. I might want to cut a Twin and two Pestermites for something like a Forked Bolt, the fourth Ponder, and an additional Jace, given how much filtering there is with Top. Any thoughts on this or the rest of the list?
Cut them for the side, the fact that you can surprise the opponent with a combo out of nowhere game 1 is one of the strengths to this deck.
Also imo you should have 2 Jace. Without ancient tomb maybe 3 is unecessary, but Jace is such an amazing card and I've won so many games off the back of a Jace (running 3 in the deck). Countertop + jace is also really good. Maybe cut down on a ponder/spell pierce/maindeck pyroblast or something and try to fit in a second or third jace.

Pestermite is also amazing against miracles. It's not big enough that they wanna use terminus but it does enough that they can't sit there for THAT long and let it hit them.

[monovfox]

I consistently do poorly with the deck when I test it. This has to be due to my own errors and not the errors of the deck. I have been playing the control version.

What do keepable openers look like? What is your control list?

[wizard_of_gore]

I consistently do poorly with the deck when I test it. This has to be due to my own errors and not the errors of the deck. I have been playing the control version.

What do keepable openers look like? What is your control list?

What's yours 75 looks like ?

[HNana]

I consistently do poorly with the deck when I test it. This has to be due to my own errors and not the errors of the deck. I have been playing the control version.

What do keepable openers look like? What is your control list?
Keepable openers? Lands and spells. Splinter twin is by far the "worst" card to have in your opening hand. Jace at least gets pitched to FOW.

But I also go based off if I can cast anything worth anything. 3 lands and 4 spells can make an amazing hand or a terrible hand. For example:

[Island, fetch, fetch, ponder, exarch, counterspell, brainstorm] is a great opening hand. You can first turn ponder, second turn play the fetch and hold a counterspell, maybe end of turn brainstorm into fetch, hold up lands for counterspell again, and if they pass, cast exarch or clique whatever and either use them as blockers to keep yourself alive or attack if the other side of the board is empty. So many different ways it could go!

[island, ancient tomb, mountain, splinter twin, jace, clique, flusterstorm] is a pretty rough hand. flusterstorm might stop a ponder, but it won't stop a DRS, mother of runes, vial, delver, etc. You're literally just relying on topdecks at that point.

Both of those hands are 3 lands 4 spells. I've kept one landers that have multiple 1 cmc cantrips, and i've kept 5 land hands that might be risky if i don't draw gas. But this is a reactive deck, and if you can't react to anything the opponent does, it loses it's strong point.

Sometimes you also have bad days. I've played and had days where the deck seems pretty much unbeatable (went 4-0 winning a tourney once without dropping even a single game), and then other days where I just get stomped by storm/miracles (both of which are probably about 50/50 matchups). It's so fair of a deck that playing well and not making mistakes really do matter. Knowing when to hold twin, knowing when to slam twin are both really strong. I've also won tourney matches where I'm losing very very hard in game 1 (maybe a mull to 4/5?) and my opponent doesn't know what I'm on, and then they see ancient tomb and think "oh sneak and show" before i play exarch etc. They side terribly (blind cabal therapy naming show and tell turn 1 happened post side against elves before), meanwhile I sided in my pyroclasms and staticasters and they have no abrupt decays because "why would you need that against sneak and show" and now I've evened up the score pretty hard. It's quite scary sitting across from a deck that goes "play a land, pass the turn" when you know that at anytime they could combo out with counters to back it up.

So maybe you had a bad day? Maybe one wrong play early on started a snowball effect of not ever being able to catch up? Hard to tell, but keep at it, this deck is the real deal.

[A. Smith]

Cut them for the side, the fact that you can surprise the opponent with a combo out of nowhere game 1 is one of the strengths to this deck.
Also imo you should have 2 Jace. Without ancient tomb maybe 3 is unecessary, but Jace is such an amazing card and I've won so many games off the back of a Jace (running 3 in the deck). Countertop + jace is also really good. Maybe cut down on a ponder/spell pierce/maindeck pyroblast or something and try to fit in a second or third jace.

Pestermite is also amazing against miracles. It's not big enough that they wanna use terminus but it does enough that they can't sit there for THAT long and let it hit them.

I ended up running the second jace, a misdirection and a forked bolt over 2 pestermite and a twin. I'm going to try and put them back in the deck over something like a snapcaster mage, a forked bolt and misidirection.

FWIW, I lost in the semifinals of my tournament last weekend. I won in the swiss against grixis pyromancer (don't think he had Delver), Elves, and a junk lands brew, losing to BUG delver and IDing my last round. I won my quarters against Elves again, then lost to the same BUG player. The matchup seems horrendous, between discard, abrupt decays and threats that don't die to Bolt, plus mana denial that's very relevant against our 4 mana spells. I'm thinking I might want to play swords instead of bolt, to have an aswer to goyf and that sort of thing, given I'm not that interested in the beatdown plan anyway? But that would mean weakening the manabase. Not by actually adding more nonbasics or whatever, I think 2 tundras would be enough, but in actual games that would mean fetching them frequently. I'm probably going to just accept the matchup sucks and move on.

Heck, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I might want to move away from even having any white at all. Maybe add in one more fetch and an additional mountain, with some blood moons in the sideboard? You lose out on some SB options, but I don't know how much that matters, and the manabase gets rock solid.

For what it's worth, I really liked CB/Top in this shell. Miracles is great and all, but sometimes CB/Top isn't that good for various reason, and then your win condition is so glacially slow that they have infinite time to just play something you can't answer. This gives very little time to your opponent to both answer the lock and an answer to the combo. Also, sweet bonus: if you have a top in play, your twiddlers can draw a card (tap top, hold priority, cast a guy, untap top, tap top. Value!).

[HNana]

I ended up running the second jace, a misdirection and a forked bolt over 2 pestermite and a twin. I'm going to try and put them back in the deck over something like a snapcaster mage, a forked bolt and misidirection.

FWIW, I lost in the semifinals of my tournament last weekend. I won in the swiss against grixis pyromancer (don't think he had Delver), Elves, and a junk lands brew, losing to BUG delver and IDing my last round. I won my quarters against Elves again, then lost to the same BUG player. The matchup seems horrendous, between discard, abrupt decays and threats that don't die to Bolt, plus mana denial that's very relevant against our 4 mana spells. I'm thinking I might want to play swords instead of bolt, to have an aswer to goyf and that sort of thing, given I'm not that interested in the beatdown plan anyway? But that would mean weakening the manabase. Not by actually adding more nonbasics or whatever, I think 2 tundras would be enough, but in actual games that would mean fetching them frequently. I'm probably going to just accept the matchup sucks and move on.

Heck, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I might want to move away from even having any white at all. Maybe add in one more fetch and an additional mountain, with some blood moons in the sideboard? You lose out on some SB options, but I don't know how much that matters, and the manabase gets rock solid.

For what it's worth, I really liked CB/Top in this shell. Miracles is great and all, but sometimes CB/Top isn't that good for various reason, and then your win condition is so glacially slow that they have infinite time to just play something you can't answer. This gives very little time to your opponent to both answer the lock and an answer to the combo. Also, sweet bonus: if you have a top in play, your twiddlers can draw a card (tap top, hold priority, cast a guy, untap top, tap top. Value!).
Yeah BUG is pretty rough. Discard hurts, decay destroys our plans, and goyf is too big to bolt. But bolt is really good against most other threats, and can hit planeswalkers. I'm not against trying to add more stp in the sideboard/mainboard if at all possible, though! Maybe 2/2 or 3/3 somehow?

I did end up winning a small tourney with a solid UR plan so it's not like that's an impossible deck to do well with, and blood moon helps but with no enchantment destruction, things like choke and counterbalance are really scary for the deck. Plus against unfair decks like dredge/sneak show/reanimator etc contamination priest and RiP are really good. Wear/tear is just super strong so that's not terrible either. However, it depends on your meta. I don't have a ton of BUG in my meta, so the jeskai version is really working out because I play against a lot of blue decks. Both blood moon and from the ashes are good against bug though!

Nice job at the tourney though! Glad you're seeing success with the deck!

Also, I think I'll try the countertop version, seems fun! I like the double drawing with top, too! Seems fun!

[wizard_of_gore]

Inspired by the previous posts, i put together straight UR CB twin and i borrow it to my friend who did well today on local tournament with 10 players. He beat Bant retreat / reliquary (2:0), dredge (2:1), deadguy ale (2:1) and belcher (2:1) for top 4, and then he lost in semifinals miserably against dredge due to mana screw both games. I was watching most of his games, and despite his inexperience with splinter twin in legacy, he really did good job and played well whole tournament. He says that deck is complex and a lot of puzzles must be assembled in process of playing, but also he said that deck was reliable and consistent whole time.
This is decklist (sideboard is tuned for local metagame):

4x deceiver exarch
2x snapcaster mage
1x vendilion clique

4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x lightning bolt
2x counterspell
1x dispel
1x pyroblast
1x pyroclasm
1x forked bolt
3x ponder
4x sensei's divining top
3x counterbalance
3x splinter twin
2x Jace, TMS

4x scalding tarn
3x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
1x bloodstained mire
4x volcanic island
1x mountain
5x island

sb:

1x pyroblast
1x hydroblast
1x izzet staticaster
2x energy flux
1x gilded drake
1x back to basics
1x blood moon
1x grafdigger's cage
2x spell pierce
1x engineered explosives
1x relic of progenitus
1x firespout
1x tormod's crypt

[monovfox]

3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Splinter Twin
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Moon
1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster


Here's the pretty close to the last list I worked with (don't remembeer it exactly, deleted my cockatrice decks in a fit of fustration) sorry for taking a bit to respond guys.

[A. Smith]

Well, I tried again last weekend, with the following list:

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Dismember
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Counterspell

4x Deceiver Exarch
2x Pestermite
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Counterbalance
4x Splinter Twin

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Island
2x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
3x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1x Blood Moon
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pyroclasm
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Submerge
1x Pithing Needle
1x Predict
3x Pyroblast
1x Shattering Spree


As you can see, I tried dropping the tundras for more stable mana. As I said, the sideboard is slightly worse, but I think it makes the deck overall better since you're basically immune to wasteland, which is super important with this many 4 drops and no acceleration. I went 3-1, winning against Oops All Spells, Reanimator, and Grixis Pyromancer, and losing to a UWR YP/Mentor midrange deck. I missed top 4 (tiny tournament this week) on breakers, which I was somewhat salty about, gotta admit. Especially since the guy that beat me with UWR really isn't the best player (he has a habit of playing brainstorm without being able to shuffle, even in long grindy matchups, then complain he draws too many lands).

The more I play the deck, the more I feel like it's countertop that's bearing all the weight in the deck. I rarely win without countertop. Sure, what actually kills my opponent is basically always infinity clerics, but that's because there's very few other actual win conditions in the deck; they were generally dead a million turns earlier from the lock. And on the flip side, games where I either don't find or can't stick countertop always seem to be very hard. I've won a few of them, of course, but it involved just jamming the combo into open mana and hoping it worked, which is not a great feeling. At least it has good odds of working in some matchups, but in others (like the UWR deck mentioned above) it never does.

Here's how I'm starting to see it. These were the strenghts of twin in modern, both in terms of the combo itself and the deck as a whole:

1) The combo pieces act as a good alternate win condition if you don't want to, or can't, combo.
2) It's combo turn is at worst a turn behind the fastest combo/aggro decks, and so a single counterspell plus tapping a mana on turn 3 can usually tide you over until you can slam twin.
3) Your dudes having flash restrict what your opponent can do, because if they tap out at any point they might be dead.

In legacy, though, 3 is flat out untrue because of free countermagic, your combo is a good two turns slower than the good combo decks, and your guys are downright embarassing compared to ponder and brainstorm-powered Delvers, Young Pyromancers and others. Add to that the fact that many decks put restrictions on your mana with stifle, wasteland, and a few other cards, and suddenly I don't think the combo's worth it anymore. You also don't get to run as many snapcaster mages, because the card is too clunky to run in large numbers, especially with countertop in the deck.

I mean, it's possible I've taken the wrong approach here. Using it with sol lands and lock pieces is interesting for instance. I don't own the cards for that, though, so I'm not going to be able to try that. The last approach I hadn't considered yet is going all-in on the combo without the lock pieces. This probably invovles sol-lands, too, but basically no grindy elements (though perhaps jace is still good enough here), but a boatload of counterspells instead. Maybe discard too. But the thing is, I'm not even sure that's worth the effort, because then you're basically left with a slower, more disruptible version of sneak and show.

I think I'm going to move on to something else for now. Good luck trying to develop this!

[wasabizod]

I got lucky playing against non-basic land heavy decks. The deck was cool. Chalice on 1 is rough for a lot of decks. Maindeck blood moon is rough, too. I enjoy the control version more (though I've been playing the control version a lot longer), but it is fun to just show up to a tourney with a chalice/moon deck and get free wins. The control version feels like a "splinter twin deck". This version feels like a chalice/moon deck (which it is), and the combo being secondary. Anyways, fun deck, I'll probably try it again next week.

I've been exploring this more and am planning to play the following 75 at my LGS weekly legacy event:

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
1x Desolate Lighthouse
5x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island

Creature (10)
4x Deceiver Exarch
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique

Instant (8)
4x Force of Will
4x Impulse

Enchantment (8)
4x Blood Moon
4x Splinter Twin

Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

Sorcery (2)
2x Compulsive Research

Sideboard (15)
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt

I've slimmed out the brainstorm, misdirection, and daze for cards that feel more proactive. From someone who's played the deck more than just at the kitchen table, any suggestions?

[Stefanogs]

Hey everybody,

I'm really looking forward to twin approach on legacy, so i have been trying some lists. Twin-Countertop (like a sideboard transformation for miracles), pure twin, prison twin (chalice of the void)... However, the version i got the very best results is, no doubt, twin blade. Let's take a look:

//Artifact (2)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Creature (13)
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

//Enchantment (3)
3 Splinter Twin

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sorcery (2)
2 Ponder

//Land (22)
2 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pestermite
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Splinter Twin
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

As a former miracles player, i really liked this version that mix 3 paths of winning: jace, stoneforge and the unexpectedly combo. Played 25+ matches with high % of victory :)

Slam the deceiver forces the opponent to answer it immediately. Despite this, we can use splinter twin at stoneforge mystic (in one match i got the first sfm fowed and the second stifled... could splinter twin to batterskull and jitte!) or even snapcaster.

Vendillion clique is essential to protect the combo. This version is not so fragile to chalice of the void and trinisphere.

My first main deck had supreme verdict, but moved it to sideboard because the deck seems to have good matches vs creature-based decks. Now, changed it to sulfur elemental and izzet staticaster (to even or take advantage of death and taxes and miracles matchup).

Intuition is not the most suitable card for the deck, but funny and flex, but maybe we can change it for ponder. And maybe reduce 3 to 2 snapcaster for another ponder.

Suggestions and tips?

[wizard_of_gore]

Hey everybody,

I'm really looking forward to twin approach on legacy, so i have been trying some lists. Twin-Countertop (like a sideboard transformation for miracles), pure twin, prison twin (chalice of the void)... However, the version i got the very best results is, no doubt, twin blade. Let's take a look:

//Artifact (2)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Creature (13)
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

//Enchantment (3)
3 Splinter Twin

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sorcery (2)
2 Ponder

//Land (22)
2 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Pestermite
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Splinter Twin
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

As a former miracles player, i really liked this version that mix 3 paths of winning: jace, stoneforge and the unexpectedly combo. Played 25+ matches with high % of victory :)

Slam the deceiver forces the opponent to answer it immediately. Despite this, we can use splinter twin at stoneforge mystic (in one match i got the first sfm fowed and the second stifled... could splinter twin to batterskull and jitte!) or even snapcaster.

Vendillion clique is essential to protect the combo. This version is not so fragile to chalice of the void and trinisphere.

My first main deck had supreme verdict, but moved it to sideboard because the deck seems to have good matches vs creature-based decks. Now, changed it to sulfur elemental and izzet staticaster (to even or take advantage of death and taxes and miracles matchup).

Intuition is not the most suitable card for the deck, but funny and flex, but maybe we can change it for ponder. And maybe reduce 3 to 2 snapcaster for another ponder.

Suggestions and tips?

Very interesting approach, but i will definitely swap 2 wasteland for color lands, since splinter twin costs RR, there can be problematic situations when you have waste/tundra/island (and you need double red source), volcanic/mountain/waste (and you desperately need white), and so on...

So:
-1 true name nemesis
-1 intuition
-1 spell pierce ( it's so random)
-2 wasteland

+2 ponder
+1 pyroblast
+1 volcanic island
+1 karakas

[wizard_of_gore]

Moon twin in top 8 on 300 men tournament

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20004&iddeck=152343


Is there someone who knows little more details about that tournament ?

[HNana]

Another 1st place at the weekly! https://twitter.com/HBSTnipponbashi/status/722771140909740032

Almost the same list as usual, but with a blood moon in place of a 4th splinter twin. Went 3-0, beating death and taxes 2-0, storm 2-0, and bug delver 2-0 in the finals. My luck was very good, and I feel like i took all the correct paths to victory.

My main worry is pulling both of my pyroclasms and adding in izzet staticasters in it's place. I like that just about everything has flash, but I haven't decided what the better thing to put in the board is.

[wizard_of_gore]

Yesterday i was watching some legacy live streams on twitch, and i catch that one guy plays splinter twin deck, and according to commentators he did well at the tournament. If someone knows more about his decklist, please info us.

Btw., there is another twin success from 2 months ago:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19564&iddeck=148916

[HNana]

counterbalance version is interesting. I personally don't like a version without pestermite, as imo it's better than exarch in legacy (stp gains you 2 life, can trade with delver, flies over stuff etc), but otherwise the list seems worth it. OFC, this kind of list makes the deck even worse against abrupt decay than before, though, haha.

[wizard_of_gore]

counterbalance version is interesting. I personally don't like a version without pestermite, as imo it's better than exarch in legacy (stp gains you 2 life, can trade with delver, flies over stuff etc), but otherwise the list seems worth it. OFC, this kind of list makes the deck even worse against abrupt decay than before, though, haha.

Well i believe counterbalance serves more as a bait for abrupt decay to clear the path for combo. If opponent leaves counterbalance untouched, congrats to him, he just choose to be locked out of game :D Also, I like deceiver exarch tricks with SDT for value. I would increase count of snapcaster mages though, but don't know what to cut out.. ?! :rolleyes:

[PhilipJFrylock]

Yesterday i was watching some legacy live streams on twitch, and i catch that one guy plays splinter twin deck, and according to commentators he did well at the tournament. If someone knows more about his decklist, please info us.

Btw., there is another twin success from 2 months ago:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19564&iddeck=148916

If you were watching Snapcasters' stream, then I am the guy who played Twin! My list was a little unpolished since I audibled into the deck late the night before, but here's what I played to a 5-2 finish:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
1 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Splinter Twin
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear // Tear
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Misdirection
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist

[wizard_of_gore]

If you were watching Snapcasters' stream, then I am the guy who played Twin! My list was a little unpolished since I audibled into the deck late the night before, but here's what I played to a 5-2 finish:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Ponder
1 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Splinter Twin
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Blood Moon
2 Wear // Tear
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Misdirection
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I like split between two jaces. Other than that, pretty stock list. I watched stream, but just part when you played against miracles (you won that match) so if you can wrote some report about rest of the matches, it would be great :D

EDIT: Btw., congrats for your finish. It's great result with such a rogue deck! :smile:

[HNana]

Hey guys, I've been doing good with the deck, but I made a couple changes, and I'm really lost as to whether the deck got better or worse, or whether the changes were even worth it. Here's my list:
20 land
4 flooded strand (I cut both ancient tombs for 2 more strand)
4 scalding tarn
4 island
1 plains
2 mountain
1 tundra
4 volcanic island

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
2 flusterstorm
2 spell snare
2 counterspell
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
3 pestermite
3 deceiver exarch
4 force of will
2 jace, the mind sculptor
3 splinter twin
2 swords to plowshares (cut a jace and a twin for these)

SB:
3 pyroblast
1 kozelik's return
1 izzet staticaster
2 from the ashes
1 blood moon
2 containment priest
1 null rod
2 rest in peace
2 wear // tear

Any tips? I found I was having lots of trouble against fast delver/rug/bug etc decks. Having the stp is really nice but I don't know if it's making the deck better. There's lots of strange cloudpost decks and other greedy manabase decks in my meta. I used to have a blood moon mainboard in place of a 4th twin, which was great, but then I moved it to the side and added in an stp. I've won quite a few games with that blood moon game 1, but since I want to make my deck the best one for a well rounded field (for GP Chiba in November), I wondered if stp was just better in that sense. Any advice is appreciated!

[mgrinshpon]

I found I was having lots of trouble against fast delver/rug/bug etc decks.

I was thinking of picking up Splinter Twin because of how fantastic the combo is against blood moon and chalice decks in general. Not playing misdirection in the deck seems strange because of how important it is in matchups with tough removal and how nice it is in counter wars in general:

UGx: Abrupt Decay
Eldrazi: Dismember (seems sketchy here)
Shardless BUG: Ancestral Visions
UR: Bolt
R: Pyroblast


Running some in the board could be the break you're looking for.

[HNana]

I've tried misdirection before and it's always been pretty underwhelming. It's been dead in my hand more often than I've ever been able to use it. I can try to give it a shot, though. What should I remove?

[mgrinshpon]

*snip*

Any tips? I found I was having lots of trouble against fast delver/rug/bug etc decks. Having the stp is really nice but I don't know if it's making the deck better. There's lots of strange cloudpost decks and other greedy manabase decks in my meta. I used to have a blood moon mainboard in place of a 4th twin, which was great, but then I moved it to the side and added in an stp. I've won quite a few games with that blood moon game 1, but since I want to make my deck the best one for a well rounded field (for GP Chiba in November), I wondered if stp was just better in that sense. Any advice is appreciated!


I've tried misdirection before and it's always been pretty underwhelming. It's been dead in my hand more often than I've ever been able to use it. I can try to give it a shot, though. What should I remove?

So I'll start with the mention that this is all theorycraft and playing should give the final results.

You're mentioning that you're having trouble against delver decks' fast clocks. Sometimes, that's a delver but other times it might be a goyf, a young pyromancer, etc. The best counter to a goyf is your own goyf. If you're playing goyf, you have incentive to play something like Engineered Explosives which can make the goyf bigger, hit chalice, delver+deathrite shaman, etc. With Goyf, suddenly, you're overloading their decay targets with cards like Sylvan Library (maybe), Goyf, and the combo. Izzet Charm also has some synergy here by pitching to a Misdirection, cycling dead cards out of your hand while simultaneously growing the goyf, and dropping DRS, Delver, and Young Pyromancer. 2 mana is a lot, but it's better than Counterspell here. Fire//Ice also seems strong.

Here's a deck that I'll personally run in a week or two that I've been casually toying around with:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Splinter Twin
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Izzet Charm
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Desolate Lighthouse

//Sideboard

1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dack Fayden
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Academy Ruins
1 Pyroclasm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ruination
The numbers need some serious work and it's possible that I want to go with Punishing Fire+Grove+Dack here because it might just be better and give you enough card advantage so that Misdirection isn't dead, but the point is that goyf is well-positioned now for this deck.

I also think that Jace is terribly positioned between flying Delvers, Young Pyromancers, trampling Reality Smashers, and Monastery Mentors all running amok. He'll basically never resolve in the miracles matchup, either due to do the red blast effects and represent a huge tempo swing, but I'm not sure what I'm cutting for him in this proposed list.

[mtgcharlie]

Hello, great thread!

@HNana how has the list been doing for you lately? Do you still like the Swords to Plowshares in there (seems great)? Have you tried any grixis / Temur variants yet?

My son and I are trying to build a list for him, he played Twin for a long time in Modern.

[HNana]

Swords has been great, it's better vs a larger % of the field than the maindeck blood moon, and makes snapcaster even better. Also I think 2 JTMS is the right number, it was nice having 3 but he kept showing up too much in opening hands when really i want him for the late game.

I haven't tried using grixis/temur mostly because the sideboard cards white has to offer (containment priest, rip, wear/tear) are really really good. If your son likes a draw-go type deck, then yeah I say go for it, especially if you already have the manabase (though any volc beyond the first could be a steam vents if youre on a budget because volcs are expensive). The best change was getting rid of ancient tombs for 2 more flooded strands, makes finding the plains/tundra easier, and gives more shuffle effects for brainstorm/jace/ponder. There were also a lot of times I noticed i needed UUU1 for a snapcaster into counterspell and a lot of times it would be awkward because i would have an ancient tomb and have to take an extra 2 damage for no reason, or not have the right mana to be able to do that.

If there's a lot of delver in your area, then I can definitely see STP being really good, and maybe even a 3 of? Definitely good vs the otherwise hard to deal with Tarmogoyf.

[Grizzly_Bear]

If the deck has gone in a UWR direction, has Restoration Angel been considered at all?
It dodges both bolt and decay very elegantly...

[HNana]

If the deck has gone in a UWR direction, has Restoration Angel been considered at all?
It dodges both bolt and decay very elegantly...

Nah, the manabase is already quite top heavy for a legacy deck, not too much space for more 4 drops, especially ones that dont win the game instantly. Usually the problem is that they decay the exarch/pestermite only when I try to play a twin on it. I like how the angel has flash, but I still don't feel like it does enough, and the other 4 drop that it would probably end up replacing is a JTMS, and that's the kind of card that can win far more games than a restoration angel. If it was modern then I would def be interested, but I don't think the angel is right for legacy.

[mtgcharlie]

@Hnana Would you mind posting your latest list?

[HNana]

@Hnana Would you mind posting your latest list?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-twin-4/

[infiniteJ]

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-twin-4/

I would add 3-4 more lands. You want to hit your first four land drops and wasteland is a thing.

[HNana]

I would add 3-4 more lands. You want to hit your first four land drops and wasteland is a thing.
I like the idea of adding more land. I don't think i need 3-4, 1 maybe 2 seems good, as I'm not running utility lands like karakas or wasteland. I run a lot of basics, too, so wasteland is far less effective against this deck than it is against most decks but there are still times (just like any non mono-colored deck) that a wasteland can shut you out of the game. I used to run 2 ancient tomb in the deck and replaced them with flooded strands, and I haven't actually added in another land to make up for the 2 mana loss. I noticed a lot when I was playing that I would start with 1 land hands way too often, I need 3 lands for the deck to not fold to itself by turn 3, so another couple is the right way to go most likely.

Now the real questions are:
What lands to add in? An arid mesa could be nice, as it can fetch any of the duals, and the basic mountains/plains. I don't feel like i really need a plateau, nor does another tundra really seem like the right choice...a wandering fumarole was on my list of "considerations" for the deck as well, but I haven't put it in yet because I don't want my opponent to actually get a lot of value from their wastelands...but it doesn't seem terrible...
So what to remove from the main deck? Maybe a creature? Getting rid of a single pestermite or a single snapcaster might not be the worst loss. Moving 1 flusterstorm to the side and getting rid of the blood moon in the board isn't a bad idea either...there's a lot of directions it can go, but more land is almost certainly the right one.

[hoernchen]

I am playing for some time this prison style of Twin and really like it. I think th SB should be updated.
What do you guys think of this version?

[21 lands]
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
2 Island

[12 combo]
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Splinter Twin

[8 hate]
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

[19 spells]
3 Chrome Mox
1 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Impulse
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Daze
2 Misdirection
3 Izzet Charm

[15 Sideboard]
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Anger of the Gods
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

[r00de]

I've been toying with Legacy Twin for a few months, mostly at my LGS, probably about 10 tournaments altogether. Previously I was a Delver player since that's all I had the cards for (other than Merfolk, meh), but when I saw some Legacy Twin lists I wanted to try it out since:
1.) It's not very often I see a new Legacy deck I can actually build
2.) I love trying out bad, quirky blue decks at FNM
3.) Grixis Twin was my go-to deck in Modern for bigger events

I started with the URw control build. I did okay with it, but its fair game felt underpowered and the combo isn't strong enough to compensate, so I moved to the version with Stoneforge and StP. That really boosted the fair game and made it feel more like it did in Modern, being capable of fighting fair or unfair depending on the texture of the game. I basically started playing it as a joke but kept coming back to it, haha. The deck has certainly exceeded my low expectations. I wouldn't go as far as calling it a good deck, but it has served me well enough to make me wonder if there's a base for something real here.

Here's my current list:


// Twin package (8)
3 Pestermite
2 Deceiver Exarch
3 Splinter Twin

// SFM package (6)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

// Misc. creatures (5)
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis

// Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Instants/sorceries (17)
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Lands (22)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa

3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau

4 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains

// Sideboard
2 From the Ashes
1 Blood Moon
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
3 Pyroblast
2 Wear//Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sudden Demise
1 Sulfur Elemental


Some notes:

SFM:
I really like that this gives you something proactive to do before turn 3, and conveniently Pestermite and Clique carry a Jitte pretty well. I also like that you can play a land on turn 3, pass the turn, and have the flexibility of either activating SFM or playing one of your flash creatures on your opponent's turn. EOT flash creature, turn 4 land, bring in Jitte with SFM, equip flash guy is also nice. Or, you know, comboing off. Sometimes SFM baits out removal if you fetched Batterskull, making it a little safer to go for the combo.

Petermite/Exarch split:
I think Pestermite is better since flying is often relevant, especially with Jitte, and Bolt is less of a factor than in Modern. Either way, an evenish split (as opposed to, say, 4 Pestermite/1 Exarch) is a nice hedge against Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle.

How to find room for more Ponders:
Maybe it's just the Delver player in me getting antsy, but I hate how little this deck can do on turns 1 and 2. This might just be the nature of the beast though, can't have it all.

Mana base:
The high number of basics can be awkward, but you want to get to 4 mana while respecting Wasteland and/or Blood Moon. 22 feels like the right number, at least, just not sure on the best mix.

TNN:
The card is obviously nuts in a lot of matchups, especially with Jitte. I kind of want another one, but it'd probably come at the expense of Snapcaster or Clique, which hurts the instant speed nature of the deck a bit. Maybe a SB option.

[keys]

Thoughts on my RUG Twin list?

3 Deceiver Exarch
2 Pestermite
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dack Fayden

3 Splinter twin

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Electrickery
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library

[r00de]

As far as third colors go, I feel like green has the least to offer Twin. It barely helps the sideboard, and the maindeck cards don't really do a lot.

Goyf generally fits in two types of decks: tempo decks that go under the opponent, and slow, grindy decks that need a cheap finisher. Twin doesn't really fall under either category. It was stronger in Modern during Tarmo Twin's heyday since Bolt and Path were the premier removal spells at the time. Goyf was often out of Bolt range by turn 2 and Path is generally not a great early game play. Decay was around, but then that was one less Decay for the combo. It was also helped by full playsets of Snapcasters and Bolts and opponents frequently shocking themselves. In Legacy, there's a good chance your turn 2 Goyf just eats a StP or Push, or in the case of combo, is simply ignored.

Punishing Fire doesn't seem like a great fit since you lack the tools to find it and get the engine going (Loam, Gamble, KotR, Crop Rotation, etc.). Jund lacks those too, but there the Fire/Grove combo is just supplementing an already grindy game plan, and because it's not blue, the deck needs things like that for card advantage.

Having said all that, I haven't actually tried RUG. It could be better than it looks on paper. I would be happy to be proven wrong, since I generally love playing RUG decks.

Grixis seems interesting, though. DRS could provide a good turn 1 play and potentially get the combo out a turn earlier. Later in the game it fits in with playing on your opponent's turn as much as possible. Thoughtseize is a great card in general, and even just the information you get from it could be useful when planning out the combo. I'm not sure if Push is much of an upgrade over Bolt; Bolt kills a lot of the things Push does, Goyf being the most obvious exception. There are some okay sideboard options too (Baleful Strix, Dread of Night, Nihil Spellbomb, Kommand, surely more I'm forgetting) but nothing on the white's level.

[Seraphix]

As far as third colors go, I feel like green has the least to offer Twin. It barely helps the sideboard, and the maindeck cards don't really do a lot.

Goyf generally fits in two types of decks: tempo decks that go under the opponent, and slow, grindy decks that need a cheap finisher. Twin doesn't really fall under either category. It was stronger in Modern during Tarmo Twin's heyday since Bolt and Path were the premier removal spells at the time. Goyf was often out of Bolt range by turn 2 and Path is generally not a great early game play. Decay was around, but then that was one less Decay for the combo. It was also helped by full playsets of Snapcasters and Bolts and opponents frequently shocking themselves. In Legacy, there's a good chance your turn 2 Goyf just eats a StP or Push, or in the case of combo, is simply ignored.

Punishing Fire doesn't seem like a great fit since you lack the tools to find it and get the engine going (Loam, Gamble, KotR, Crop Rotation, etc.). Jund lacks those too, but there the Fire/Grove combo is just supplementing an already grindy game plan, and because it's not blue, the deck needs things like that for card advantage.

Having said all that, I haven't actually tried RUG. It could be better than it looks on paper. I would be happy to be proven wrong, since I generally love playing RUG decks.

Grixis seems interesting, though. DRS could provide a good turn 1 play and potentially get the combo out a turn earlier. Later in the game it fits in with playing on your opponent's turn as much as possible. Thoughtseize is a great card in general, and even just the information you get from it could be useful when planning out the combo. I'm not sure if Push is much of an upgrade over Bolt; Bolt kills a lot of the things Push does, Goyf being the most obvious exception. There are some okay sideboard options too (Baleful Strix, Dread of Night, Nihil Spellbomb, Kommand, surely more I'm forgetting) but nothing on the white's level.

I once tinkered with the notion of splashing Green primarily for Noble Hierarch in a tempo-Twin style deck. Your combo pieces cost 3 and 4 mana, so the mana acceleration is appreciated (granted Hierarch doesn't always help cast Splinter Twin since its RR). Once you have some acceleration with Hierarch, Daze also becomes appealing as additional free interaction. In Magical Christmasland the Hierarch-Daze combination enables you to go off on turn 3 with Force and Daze backup. Basically, this list resembled NO RUG but with Twin instead of NO.

[r00de]

The deck is slow and mana hungry, so I can definitely see the appeal of some sort of acceleration. However, I wouldn't go with Noble Hierarch, since tapping for red is practically a necessity. I think BoP would be better, although I like DRS a lot more since its power level is just so much higher. Sure, it can't tap for mana 100% of the time, but I think the versatility makes up for that. I imagine that'd put you in Grixis, probably including a green dual for the matchups where eating creatures is important. It's probably more interesting than good (sort of like the deck as a whole, haha), but something I've been contemplating.

I don't like Daze in this deck, though. The combo decks that want it are the ones that potentially go off turn 1 or 2 when opponents are short on mana. Tapping 4 for Twin and having your Pestermite StP'ed in response will make Daze look embarrassing, unless you're pitching it to FoW :wink:. On the other end of the spectrum, usually the only fair decks that want it are tempo decks. The Twin combo costs too much for the deck to ever really be tempo; you have too many expensive spells, and enough lands to support them, to get under most opponents. When Twin plays fair it's more of a midrange or control deck, and Daze is generally pretty bad there. The one exception to all of this is the prison version, since you have the turn 1 "combo" of a lock piece that hopefully shuts your opponent out of the game. Daze seems pretty reasonable there.

[wizard_of_gore]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23138&iddeck=179260


new twin deck pop up on tc deck. pretty straight, nice and clean list :D

[HNana]

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23138&iddeck=179260


new twin deck pop up on tc deck. pretty straight, nice and clean list :D

Snapcaster and Clique are so central to the deck though, I get at least 1/3 of my wins with just beatdown with blue flash creatures. Being able to do anything at instant speed (except lands/twin/jace/ponder) is soooo good for this deck. I don't like JVP tbh.

[Kanti]

Chrome Mox seems hot here. t1 SFM, t2 Pestermite on opponents upkeep to Timewalk them, and of course the possibility of the t3 win.

Thoughts on Mox as a 1-2 of?

[HNana]

Chrome Mox seems hot here. t1 SFM, t2 Pestermite on opponents upkeep to Timewalk them, and of course the possibility of the t3 win.

Thoughts on Mox as a 1-2 of? Chalice/moon version might like it. Not sure if it's better than mox diamond, though. Generally I want to keep the cards and get rid of the lands.

[tescrin]

I'm somewhat confused why you're in White. Green or Black could give you T3 win potential. Black could get you similar removal, and if you're looking for Delver game, little slows them down more than Baleful Strix.

As someone posted, a PFire build with Goyfs would grind fine as well, while giving the ability to win out of nowhere. I think white is the wrong direction.

Regardless, T3-win potential is >>>>> T4. The critical turn in legacy is (IIRC) around 2.5. If your big play doesn't start til T3, I think you'll find yourself generally behind.

Bolt->Goyf->Snap->Bolt is also a good 10 damage T3, which is a pretty good line that doesn't happen in legacy (RUG is unpopular)

[HNana]

I'm somewhat confused why you're in White. Green or Black could give you T3 win potential. Black could get you similar removal, and if you're looking for Delver game, little slows them down more than Baleful Strix.

As someone posted, a PFire build with Goyfs would grind fine as well, while giving the ability to win out of nowhere. I think white is the wrong direction.

Regardless, T3-win potential is >>>>> T4. The critical turn in legacy is (IIRC) around 2.5. If your big play doesn't start til T3, I think you'll find yourself generally behind.

Bolt->Goyf->Snap->Bolt is also a good 10 damage T3, which is a pretty good line that doesn't happen in legacy (RUG is unpopular)
I agree. The main reason I was in white was for sideboard cards and StP, but with fatal push now, I might be better off with discard, pushes, and kolghan's command.

[FGCmtg]

Hi all - I've already posted this in the 'Twinblade' thread, but I thought some of you might appreciate this. I've been messing around with this Stoneforge/Twin shell for a few weeks online and in paper. I went 3-1 at the recent weekly and will likely play this in a GPT tomorrow, and thought I'd share the list I played here.

MB

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Splinter Twin

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

SB

2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Vendilion Clique

I played vs Aluren, Dark Bant twice and Grixis Delver, losing to Bant in rd 3. I enjoyed having the combo in the deck and not needing to playing 4 twins is great! The cantrips fix everything, as usual. Overall I was happy with the list. Any criticisms welcome, mainly looking for discussion.

[wizard_of_gore]

This would be my take on twin deck:

3x pestermite
2x snapcaster mage
1x vendilion clique
3x strix

1x kolaghan's command
1x counterspell
4x fow
4x bolt
2x fatal push
2x thoughtseize
1x inquisition of kozilek
1x pyroblast
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
2x preordain

2x jace
2x twin


3x volcanic
2x sea
1x badlands
1x mountain
3x island
4x scalding tarn
4x delta
3x bloodstined mire



Able to grind, and able to combo.