Vise Stax (Mono-Red)

[Admiral_Arzar]

So with the unbanning of Black Vise, I had an excuse to pull out some of the more...exotic artifacts that I don't necessarily play in traditional Stax. When playing Vise, the whole point is to stop your opponent from playing spells as much as possible. This can be done through sphere effects, mana-denial lands, effects that tap out your opponent's permanents, Blood Moon, etc. You can also force your opponent to draw cards, although I find that to be generally outside the purview of this archetype. My first draft was very haphazard and featured some nombos, but it worked better than I expected:

Maindeck

4 Goblin Welder

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Black Vise
2 Winter Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tanglewire
4 Smokestack

3 Punishing Fire
4 Blood Moon
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain

Sideboard

3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant

I took the untested list above to a small local event (3 rounds). Was able to beat MUD off of Black Vise + Mana denial and his inability to draw enough lands. Lost to Shardless when I mulled into irrelevant stuff game one and then kept a greedy one-lander game 2 (never saw a second land). Round 3 I played against Sneaky Show. Game one I locked him out with Winter Orb + Tanglewire + Goblin Welder. His resolved Griselbrand availed him not as it never stayed untapped. Game 2 I have Smokestack + other mana denial and lock him out of permanents.

After a discussion with a friend of mine, I cut the anti-synergistic Punishing Fire package and moved Blood Moon to the board for matchups where it is absolutely necessary (BUG, Lands, etc.). Total changes were something like this:

Maindeck
-3 Punishing Fire
-4 Grove of the Burnwillows
-4 Blood Moon
-1 Black Vise

+4 Rishadan Port
+4 Sphere of Resistance
+4 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard
-4 Sphere of Resistance
-4 Ensnaring Bridge

+4 Blood Moon
+4 Sudden Shock

I may also add another land as I HATE 1-2 land hands in Stax (especially when City of Traitors is involved). The extra land will probably be a Dust Bowl although Ghost Quarter is also possible. I moved Bridge to the main as the deck has the tendency to just lose to a resolved Goyf if you don't have Tanglewire going. Sphere main is super good with Rishadan Port although it leads to a lot of greedy keeps when you are land light. I think the deck has potential, if it can be said that any Stax deck has any potential. Massive mana denial just beats some decks, and this deck has a largely unmatched denial package. Anyways, discuss. This list is in its infancy so there's probably a lot that can be done to improve it.

[rufus]

The old vise decks played Wheel of Fortune and the analogues could fit in this deck. Wheel of Fate and Reforge the Soul could work OK here. Similarly, [card]Devastating Dreams[/cards] has intrinsic synergy with the land destruction/denial package and Crack the Earth is a mini-stax. If you're feeling silly, you could experiment with Magmatic Insight and Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded.

[Stuart]

This is really cool. I want to give it more thought, but my first impression: is 3 Vise really a safe enough kill plan? I'm wondering if you've thought about Mishra's Factory; seems solid with Crucible.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This is really cool. I want to give it more thought, but my first impression: is 3 Vise really a safe enough kill plan? I'm wondering if you've thought about Mishra's Factory; seems solid with Crucible.

This deck, like most full-on prison decks, wins a lot of games through inevitability and/or opponent concessions. I would like to work the 4th Vise back in though, I'm just not 100% on what to cut. I haven't considered factory but it might be worth testing.

[Redkid43]

Very interesting brew...anything with Daretti and Blood Moon gets me excited :)


Crack the Earth is a very cool card, and with recursion with Welder we can really abuse it.

[mistercakes]

Very interesting brew...anything with Daretti and Blood Moon gets me excited :)


Crack the Earth is a very cool card, and with recursion with Welder we can really abuse it.

if you're running 4 crucible and blood moon i would recommend running at least 1-2 ghost quarter. i was also thinking about ankh of mishra here, as it combos well with winter orb, but it's quite poor with crucible of worlds. (but you can welder it away if you dont want, or you can welder it in response to them cracking a fetch.

anyway, just some food for thought.

[Admiral_Arzar]

if you're running 4 crucible and blood moon i would recommend running at least 1-2 ghost quarter. i was also thinking about ankh of mishra here, as it combos well with winter orb, but it's quite poor with crucible of worlds. (but you can welder it away if you dont want, or you can welder it in response to them cracking a fetch.

anyway, just some food for thought.

I would like another land (tired of mulligans for 1-2 land hands) and Ghost Quarter is on the shortlist for that slot. I also considered Dust Bowl but Quarter is probably just better. Ankh I don't much like because we already play Ancient Tomb and I don't want to make our Delver/creatures.dec matchup any worse.

[bruizar]

Not sure if you can reach threshold, but Barbarian Ring is really good with Crucible.

[Redkid43]

Devastating Dreams makes main deck Ensnaring Bridge really enticing, as we can turn it on (uncounterable too!) and blow their lands.

Gamble seems really good with Welder and Daretti.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Devastating Dreams makes main deck Ensnaring Bridge really enticing, as we can turn it on (uncounterable too!) and blow their lands.

Gamble seems really good with Welder and Daretti.

I feel like DD is just asking to get blown out by a counterspell. We already have Wasteland recursion, Rishadan Port, Winter Orb, and Tanglewire to disrupt opposing manabases. Not to mention double red would be difficult without a serious overhaul of the manabase (or a resolved Moon postboard).

[Redkid43]

Let's see...

Tibalt, hear me out guys, could actually work okay here. With a deck of artifacts and such, his first ability is negated by Welder. And his first ultimate compliments Black Vise quite nicely, but his last ability would almost certainly never be used. RR is tough for this deck though, even with moxes and such.

[GoblinSettler]

I rolled up to my weekly Legacy with something similar to the opening post. I've been itching to get back to a red Stax list since Magic Origins gave us so many new toys. The unbanning of Vise pushed that itch over the top. Enough for me to set down Goblins for a week and assemble a miserable, ridiculous contraption.

I got bored halfway through writing an epic tournament report for my mediocre 2-2 showing. I'll go for the short version instead.

...

They games were mostly a slog. I played terribly and slowly. To my opponents, I'm sorry.

A highlight of the night. I straight up scoop to my opponent's Chalice on 1. Which is hilarious, considering I'm trying to do that myself. But things looked rather bleak from behind my hand of Vise, Vise, Welder, and random expensive junk.

...

Black Vise may have a place to shine, but this isn't the deck. It can chip away early, but not enough to matter. If you lock them out, you can win with anything anyway. Vise takes slots away from actual lock pieces. Or from cards that can get you there, limping across the finish line, regardless of what your opponent is doing. I found myself cursing my luck when an opponent mulled to oblivion. There went my damage source! Not a good sign.

Contrast to that, AEther Grid is sick. It is not hard to ping for two a turn with your lock pieces. Even spare artifact lands. Finally, a synergistic way to handle an early Delver that otherwise means game over. I like that it is an enchantment and dodges some of the hate your opponents will bring in. This feels much better than trying to grind with Punishing Fire.

Welder, Tangle Wire, and AEther grid give you plenty of ways to play around your own Trinisphere if you need to.

Stealing a page from the recent aggressive Shops lists in Vintage, I'm liking Arcbound Ravager from the sideboard. It is a drastic tempo change from the plodding pace of game one.

[Sibelius]

Hey there.
I've been playing a deck like this a lot recently. It is based on a stax deck on mtgo by charlie-in-the-mox
I talk about it in the stax thread.

List is as follows

4 Tomb
4 City
4 Waste
4 Mishras factory
4 Mutavault
4 Rishadan port
3 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale

3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Lodestone
4 Tanglewire
4 Crucible
4 Smokestack
3 Ensaring Bridge
3 Ratchet bomb

Side
4 Revoker (these are sacrosanct)
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Bridge
Other stuff

Its very similar to your plan. Tabernacle works beautifully with the mana denial plan, mox and crucible. Ratchet bomb is needed to deal with annoyances such as Jace.... Lodestone looks a bit crap with the Tabernacle plan but he/she is the best sphere effect left and sometimes you might have to attack to win rather than depress the opponent into conceding.
Anyway I hope you like my take on the Stax archetype its great to play.

Sib

[Redkid43]

I've seen that list show up often on MTGO dailies...it's pretty awesome :D

How about a slight white splash for good ol' Armegeddon? Perhaps win-more and probably not worth it, but with total land denial and such, it's a total way to just blow them out of the game.

[Aronesxd]

This deck looks like a hidden powerhourse. I was always a fan of dragonstompy and stax now i looks like someone made a deck for me :D .

[frafen]

What do you think of adding 2-3 sensei's divining top+fetchlands (or maybe even faithless looting) to improve deck's consistency?

[Sibelius]

What do you think of adding 2-3 sensei's divining top+fetchlands (or maybe even faithless looting) to improve deck's consistency?

It depends if you are playing Chalice of the void or not. Chalice on 1 is the best t1 play in a stax deck. I suppose if you are going for welder shenanigans then sure no chalice and play top. Testing will determine which is best, but I feel play a deck full of redundant 4 ofs, lose the top and welder and play chalice. Their ponders, bolts, brainstorms are better than anything we will be doing with top I suspect.

Sib

[frafen]

It depends if you are playing Chalice of the void or not. Chalice on 1 is the best t1 play in a stax deck. I suppose if you are going for welder shenanigans then sure no chalice and play top. Testing will determine which is best, but I feel play a deck full of redundant 4 ofs, lose the top and welder and play chalice. Their ponders, bolts, brainstorms are better than anything we will be doing with top I suspect.

Sib Yes I was talking about the Welder version in the OP. To me it seems like that drawing too many lands or too many copy of the same card (like 2 winter orbs or crucibles) could be a problem. Also in the first turns top is useful to find enough mana.

[hofzge]

To come back to the thread and red stax how about a Welder Stax a bit centered on Ghirapur Aether Grid:

Artifact (23)

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Mindslaver
4x Mox Diamond
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Creature (5)

4x Goblin Welder
1x Sundering Titan

Planeswalker (3)

3x Daretti, Scrap Savant

Land (24)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
2x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (2)

2x Faithless Looting

Enchantment (3)

3x Ghirapur AEther Grid

Sideboard (15)

3x Blood Moon
2x Bottled Cloister
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spellskite
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Wurmcoil Engine

A Smokestack would be really nice, but instead of what?

[Admiral_Arzar]

To come back to the thread and red stax how about a Welder Stax a bit centered on Ghirapur Aether Grid:

Artifact (23)

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Mindslaver
4x Mox Diamond
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Creature (5)

4x Goblin Welder
1x Sundering Titan

Planeswalker (3)

3x Daretti, Scrap Savant

Land (24)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
2x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (2)

2x Faithless Looting

Enchantment (3)

3x Ghirapur AEther Grid

Sideboard (15)

3x Blood Moon
2x Bottled Cloister
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spellskite
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Wurmcoil Engine

A Smokestack would be really nice, but instead of what?

Cut Faithless Looting. You're playing Chalice and don't need it. Also, if you're going to play both Welder and Chalice you need to run 4 Cavern of Souls in order to cast your own Welders. I would go -2 Darksteel Citadel -2 Port probably. 3 Aether Grid is probably one too many. If you're focusing on both Aether Grid and Tanglewire I would consider maining Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere. Everyone forgets that Trinisphere has to be untapped to work and that is anti-synergistic with the aforementioned cards.

[mistercakes]

what do you think about approaching black vise in decks where sphere of resistance effects can be used?

sphere
trinisphere
thorn
thalia?
chancellor of the annex

[hofzge]

Cut Faithless Looting. You're playing Chalice and don't need it. Also, if you're going to play both Welder and Chalice you need to run 4 Cavern of Souls in order to cast your own Welders. I would go -2 Darksteel Citadel -2 Port probably. 3 Aether Grid is probably one too many. If you're focusing on both Aether Grid and Tanglewire I would consider maining Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere. Everyone forgets that Trinisphere has to be untapped to work and that is anti-synergistic with the aforementioned cards.

You are probably right about 3 Aether Grid being too many and Faithless Looting not being needed.
How about this (it will be a bit weak to aggro):

Artifact (27)
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Mindslaver
4x Mox Diamond
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire

Creature (4)
4x Goblin Welder

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Enchantment (2)
2x Ghirapur AEther Grid

Planeswalker (3)
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant

Sideboard (15)

3x Blood Moon
2x Bottled Cloister
1x Ghirapur AEther Grid
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Trinisphere

I am afraid that against elves/DnT/Aether Vial decks you have the problem of running too few way of remoing or sweeping their stuff with 2 Grid and 1 Ratchet Bomb. Maybe I overdo with the sideboard and maybe Pyroclasm would be better than the Ratchet Bomb.
Against Control or Combo the Stax lockpieces should do fine.
Against GBx base Decay decks (Jund, Aggro Loam, Shardless BUG) the welders/Daretti are a good insurance, but those will naturally be the hardest matchups as Chalice is often not very good against those decks

[GrimoirePath]

Been tinkering with a similar list. No Smokestack at the moment, so i was calling it "Welder Wire."


4 Chalice
4 Vise
4 Tanglewire
2 Winter Orb
2 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Goblin Welder
4 Ornithopter
4 Spellskite
4 Magus of the Wheel

4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal

4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Seat Synod

Im not running crucible so I use Mox Opal over diamond. Hitting chalice on one right out of the gate is primo. I cast welder through chalice with cavern, I cast my black vise into the chalice and use welder to return it from the graveyard, and I protect welder with spellskite.

Tanglewires and winter orbs further lock down their boards while I hide behind ensnaring bridge.

Ornithopter is there to make sure mox opal turns on, and to chump block and get wleded back in. Its the one piece i might trade out after more testing. The magus of the wheel is to fill my hand, but also to fill theirs to keep them taking vise damage.

Ive got blood moon for the board if absolutey necessary, and am considering a blightsteel colossus as the alternate win con.
.

[Dice_Box]

Seat offers no bonus for being Blue, switch them for Darksteel Citadel.

[GrimoirePath]

Seat offers no bonus for being Blue, switch them for Darksteel Citadel.

It is there for spellskite.