[COMM] Commander 2015 Spoiler Discussion

[MD.Ghost]

For me only 3 cards for (more or less) "pet" Decks.

Zombiedragon - can find a home in "Walking Dead "
Meren - maybe will find a way in the various Nic Fit builds
Centaur - maybe 1off for Sylvan Plug (someone will also test it in Aggro Loam or Lands)

Sadly no clear Eternal Card so far, but i am also glad we don't get the next TNN

[Barook]

Really these are all EDH cards, which, I mean, this is a set made for that though, so, I can't really be all that upset...
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/random-ness/images/e/e2/I_ain't_even_mad_will_smith.png/revision/latest?cb=20130110012350

The only thing that pisses me off is how uninspired RW as a whole is. Fuck the combat focus - why not awesome hatebears with combat stats? I'm suprised they didn't shit out "Yet another Lightning Helix-effect attached to an expensive card" ™.

BG got the playable cards (Meren, maybe the Centaur for Loam decks) as predicted, Mizzix's Mastery and Magus of the Wheel might be things. I like Karlov, but can't see a Legacy-competitive shell that can properly utilize him.

[joven]

Because there's nothing better than killing your opponent twice. If only there were no easier way to get those counters off that pesky dark depths.

I fixed that for you! ;P

[Finn]

Heh. Humor and tone just don't work on these threads. Folks from so many countries and cultures clouds it even more. Cire was being silly. I responded with snark because I was not sure if he was serious. Joven, you are correct, but we were just fooling around with nerdy humor.

[rufus]

I'm a little intrigued by Corpse Augur. Sure 3B is a lot for legacy, but that ability can do stupid things.

[Dice_Box]

Why did they put in Brainstorm and Preordain but not Serum Visions? One of those needed the reprint more than the others.

[TsumiBand]

Quoted for truth.

Wizards also admitted a mistake and has shown they learned from it:

** wizards quote about TNN being mistake **

If the choice was between 'no Legacy playables' and 'another TNN mistake', which would you choose?

This is what I was thinking as I kept reading the spoilers, and this confirms it -- they knew they goofed with True-Name Nemesis, so they eased off with this run.

I find it a *little* bit hard to swallow that they didn't "get" how frustrating a card like TNN would be in any format that it was legal in. Like, how hard is it to figure it out -- the game is built on the predication of being able to actually interact, but did they seriously sit around the office like "Eternal players will just happily maindeck Golgari Charm into their $4000 5-color manabases and life will continue, hrrnda hrrnda hrrnda"

[Tylert]

Heh. Humor and tone just don't work on these threads. Folks from so many countries and cultures clouds it even more. Cire was being silly. I responded with snark because I was not sure if he was serious. Joven, you are correct, but we were just fooling around with nerdy humor.

I'm from France and your original post made me laugh :)
There is still Hope!!

[(nameless one)]

Why did they put in Brainstorm and Preordain but not Serum Visions? One of those needed the reprint more than the others.

Perhaps they don't want the non-EDH crowd hoarding these up. While the previous Commander were a success, it kinda pushed out the EDH/casual crowd because of all the eternal playables on them. I remember it was next to impossible to get a hold of the True Name Nemesis decks. The mono red and mono white were hard to find as well.

[tescrin]

I think Magus could be the difference between Big Red being frustratingly close to good, and actually being good. Namely because after you crap out 7 cards by T2, one of those may as well be a "draw 7" so you can actually finish the game.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Heh. Humor and tone just don't work on these threads.
It's actually a known issue with internet communication and not unique to TheSource.
Face to face interaction conveys much more of the intended meaning because you can hear sarcasm and see someone rolling their eyes.
Emojis are the bastard children of :-) ;-) and so on and are unfortunately necessary to convey the missing tone even though it makes the poster look like a 5 year old. :tongue:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/b4/b8/77b4b8c988c831abeb9e2d9a4ac66dee.jpg


Did they seriously sit around the office like "Eternal players will just happily maindeck Golgari Charm into their $4000 5-color manabases and life will continue, hrrnda hrrnda hrrnda"
I think that was exactly the point of the Wizards quote... they absolutely did not sit around the office considering the effect on Eternal. They saw a broken creature that was tempered by it's invulnerability to only 1 player in a multiplayer game. :rolleyes:

[Barook]

Perhaps they don't want the non-EDH crowd hoarding these up. While the previous Commander were a success, it kinda pushed out the EDH/casual crowd because of all the eternal playables on them. I remember it was next to impossible to get a hold of the True Name Nemesis decks. The mono red and mono white were hard to find as well.
If they balanced out the decks properly in terms of chase cards, this wouldn't be a problem. I predict that the BG is going to sell like hotcakes while nobody is going to want the RW one.

It never ceases to amaze me how Wizards intentionally gimps their product. But it's the same with MTGO.

Just like they could have made strictly better duals with some minor Commander-only advantage to get around the RL and sell a bazillion precons this AND next year.

[TsumiBand]

Maybe I just have a different read on things - I don't think they intentionally gimp their product, I think they hamstring their design process, and it leads to product that's tilted n power level but it "comes by it honestly", as it were.

Like look at how they setup the color pie such that Black lost so much of its actual identity to concerns that started by trying to reinforce boundaries (and partially to make creatures matter, but w/e). I can dig the notion that Black can't just pay life to do WUBRG effects but... the fuck happened to tutoring, card draw, LD? Design's oversight made development really fucking hard, and now Black is sort of in this weird "I'm just like Green but I kill stuff" place.

The Blue confluence being "the good one" is just another pointer to Eternal disconnect, though given the product it's hard to understand how that can actually happen.

[Barook]

Like look at how they setup the color pie such that Black lost so much of its actual identity to concerns that started by trying to reinforce boundaries (and partially to make creatures matter, but w/e). I can dig the notion that Black can't just pay life to do WUBRG effects but... the fuck happened to tutoring, card draw, LD? Design's oversight made development really fucking hard, and now Black is sort of in this weird "I'm just like Green but I kill stuff" place.
Black still gets "cards for life". Cheap tutoring is considered too powerful and LD as "unfun". Black also lost a good chunk of "efficient, cheap creatures with drawback" because it stepped too much into red's territory - instead, they make now fatter creatures with higher toughness than power (because that totally isn't white's territory. :rolleyes: )

I agree that Black suffers from its identity crisis for a while.

[joven]

Heh. Humor and tone just don't work on these threads. Folks from so many countries and cultures clouds it even more. Cire was being silly. I responded with snark because I was not sure if he was serious. Joven, you are correct, but we were just fooling around with nerdy humor.

Yes, I got this. I was fooling around myself. It is just a matter of perspective: if you like broken stuff like Dark Depths or not. I don't like it (Marit Lage as 20/20 Token is fine, but getting it for almost free is just broken within the meaning of faulty game design (the counters should go up not down)) so in that fictional situation of your joke I would rather hope that there were really no simpler options to remove those counters from Dark Depths than this new 6cc vampire. :)
And I liked your joke about killing opponent twice! Nothing better than hyperdeath! :D


Perhaps they don't want the non-EDH crowd hoarding these up. While the previous Commander were a success, it kinda pushed out the EDH/casual crowd because of all the eternal playables on them. I remember it was next to impossible to get a hold of the True Name Nemesis decks. The mono red and mono white were hard to find as well.

Well, they want to sell packs, don't they?
I don't really see the problem. Serum Visions does not compare well to a format-destroying abomination like True Name Nemesis.

[joven]

I think that was exactly the point of the Wizards quote... they absolutely did not sit around the office considering the effect on Eternal. They saw a broken creature that was tempered by it's invulnerability to only 1 player in a multiplayer game. :rolleyes:

I'm sure they could have wasted one small thought on 1-vs-1 formats in general, then they would have known how stupid that design was.
And it would have been so easy to fix by wording it to only work in multiplayer situations. WotC are sometimes so @§#&%!

[tescrin]

Black still gets "cards for life". Cheap tutoring is considered too powerful and LD as "unfun". Black also lost a good chunk of "efficient, cheap creatures with drawback" because it stepped too much into red's territory - instead, they make now fatter creatures with higher toughness than power (because that totally isn't white's territory. :rolleyes: )

I agree that Black suffers from its identity crisis for a while.

I agree, though I get it. It's hard to get players to like mechanics that are like "sacrifice a land, play a 5/3 for 3" or similar; because it feels bad when it doesn't work. It's also hard to differentiate the calculating nature of Black "win at any cost" from the reckless nature of red's "go get 'em!"

Black still always felt different though. "Discard a creature and you get a 4/4 for 2" or whatever felt like it made sense. As do thoughtseize penalties "this will hurt you much more than it will hurt me" kind of thing or the old "I don't need to kill black/artifact creatures" dichotomy of black kill spells, swampwalk, and fear. Calculated risks and restrictions

Red should get efficient creatures with the "no blocking" drawback rather than Black or both; as that's the reckless side. Sell all of your armor for guns and go crazy. Red's spells should be powerful, but limited in application (Bolt being a good example; as there are a lot of things it can't get you out of.) A lack of control, but power oozing from your fingers.

They've gotten better about Red, but the longer we go, the more Red eats Black's color pie and black just becomes "Draws cards or gets stuff from the graveyard." This in fine and good to a degree, but it makes things super predictable.

[TsumiBand]

Most of Black's "pay life to do xyz" stuff ended up tossed aside though, right -- cards-for-life is a thing but it typically is unplayable. They are horrible at really pushing "greatness at any cost", which I get because it used to bend the color pie butnow it's assy

[Aggro_zombies]

If they balanced out the decks properly in terms of chase cards, this wouldn't be a problem. I predict that the BG is going to sell like hotcakes while nobody is going to want the RW one.

It never ceases to amaze me how Wizards intentionally gimps their product. But it's the same with MTGO.
It's not intentional: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence." Also, it's really, really hard to make five separate decks that are all equally desirable to all the different varieties of Commander player. The RW deck is pretty Timmy-tastic, for example, and has Gisela to entice players looking to go ham with natively fat creatures. It has reasonable board control as well and will give control players an option. I think its biggest sin is that neither of its new commanders are particularly interesting.


Just like they could have made strictly better duals with some minor Commander-only advantage to get around the RL and sell a bazillion precons this AND next year.
This they won't do, for the same reason they didn't put enemy fetchlands in these. They want these to be bought by Commander players. If they put enemy fetches or some other expensive Constructed staple in them, it would be True-Name Nemesis all over again, except even worse because speculators, value traders, and Constructed players would be hoovering up 4+ copies of every deck. If you just wanted to pick up a deck to battle against your friends, you'd either be shit out of luck or paying out the wazoo for it. That was enough of a disaster for the actual Commander players the first time around that Wizards won't do something like that again.

[Dice_Box]

So it's likely we are waiting for their next external only Booster product for our next Flusterstorm.

[Barook]

This they won't do, for the same reason they didn't put enemy fetchlands in these. They want these to be bought by Commander players. If they put enemy fetches or some other expensive Constructed staple in them, it would be True-Name Nemesis all over again, except even worse because speculators, value traders, and Constructed players would be hoovering up 4+ copies of every deck. If you just wanted to pick up a deck to battle against your friends, you'd either be shit out of luck or paying out the wazoo for it. That was enough of a disaster for the actual Commander players the first time around that Wizards won't do something like that again.
They don't put in enemy fetchlands because they need them for a future shitty set to sell.

The problem with TNN was that it was only a single deck and the rest of the box was just junk, leaving store owners with dead weight.

If everything is desirable and sells like hotcakes, I don't see a problem. Just print properly according to demand.

But then again, Wizards couldn't even be assed to estimate the BFZ fatbox demand.

[Aggro_zombies]

So it's likely we are waiting for their next external only Booster product for our next Flusterstorm.
It's possible they will put out a Legacy Masters at some point, but since it won't contain duals or niche-but-expensive Legacy staples, the player dissatisfaction with such a product would be high. Well, high until people start furiously cracking packs in pursuit of foil mythic Force of Wills.

They may also put cards like this in a Conspiracy-style set, perhaps even the inevitable Conspiracy II. People will still be interested in drafting out of someone else's box even know they won't get to keep the cards.

Otherwise, there's no reason they can't sneak Eternal playables into Standard. Ad Nauseam did nothing in its Standard format but was the backbone of Legacy Storm for a long time, so it's certainly possible to create cards that are great in larger formats but still safe in small ones.

EDIT:

They don't put in enemy fetchlands because they need them for a future shitty set to sell.

The problem with TNN was that it was only a single deck and the rest of the box was just junk, leaving store owners with dead weight.

If everything is desirable and sells like hotcakes, I don't see a problem. Just print properly according to demand.

But then again, Wizards couldn't even be assed to estimate the BFZ fatbox demand.
Barook, I like you, but I do not think this level of cynicism is justified or particularly healthy. I work at an LGS doing card and sealed product sales for Magic. There is absolutely a huge community of people who would buy this product if it contained high-value cards solely to buylist as many of those cards for profit as possible. They would not play Commander with these decks; indeed, most of them don't play Commander at all and don't care about the format except for its ability to make bulk rares and uncommons slightly less bulky at random intervals. Regular players who may or may not play Commander but who are definitely in tune with the MTG Financials scene would also buy these decks to sell or trade off the valuables and leave the rest in their collection. Some regular players looking to complete, say, a playset of fetches for Modern may decide that paying a slight premium to get four copies of a deck is worth it under the assumption that they can dump the rest to break even and would pile on. Meanwhile, players who actually play Commander as their primary format and who want a copy of the decks because they want those decks specifically are either looking at paying 150+% of MSRP prices at an LGS or doing the rounds of perpetually cleaned-out big box stores.

Unfortunately, this last group of people is the group for whom these products are made. Wizards really, really wants to avoid the feel-bad of having their decks cleaned out everywhere for months by people who couldn't give two shits about Commander while the actual Commander players are sad. They especially want to avoid that because they realize there are certain things they can only do in Commander products (like Command Tower), but enemy fetches can be dropped anywhere, to move any product. There's just zero reason to spice up a product that will already sell well to its target audience with bait for people of different audiences.

[Mr.C]

I really don't think Wizards cares about Legacy at this point. Otherwise they wouldn't have printed Cruise and Dig in the first place.

[apple713]

I really don't think Wizards cares about Legacy at this point. Otherwise they wouldn't have printed Cruise and Dig in the first place.

you don't have to think it, they've flat out said they don't test eternal formats...

[Phoenix Ignition]

I really don't think Wizards cares about Legacy at this point. Otherwise they wouldn't have printed Cruise and Dig in the first place.

But obviously they do because they banned both...?

[ESG]

The problem with TNN was that it was only a single deck and the rest of the box was just junk, leaving store owners with dead weight.

Baleful Strix and Strategic Planning were also in there, if memory serves. Strategic Planning was actually quite expensive before it was reprinted. Baleful Strix's price tanked as a result of people cracking the deck to get TNN and WOTC printing more copies in an attempt to answer demand.

[Dice_Box]

I really don't think Wizards cares about Legacy at this point. Otherwise they wouldn't have printed Cruise and Dig in the first place.

That had nothing to do with Legacy.

[phonics]

But obviously they do because they banned both...?

I'm pretty sure their care level is just slightly above 'lets kill it.' Lets be honest here, its 2015 and they still print way more good blue cards than any other color, they only 'test' for a meta they think will exist a year down the road, and a limited environment, but still print things like pack rat. I think they've also established that they don't care about what is happening to prices, and that any actual reprint is probably just a happy accident that happens to alleviate prices. I expect nothing positive from current WOTC.

[Dice_Box]

Say what you like, the fact that we did not end up with another TNN tells me that they do care and have learnt. Fine, Blue is the strongest. So we live with that. We have since the start of the game. The thing here is, they don't test for Legacy and made a mistake in standard. Forgiveable. They don't test for legacy in commander and they made a mistake. Then they learnt from it. Forgiveable. They make strong blue card, the earth still spins. Take a breath and play on.

Lands is still a fine deck and I am happy to have a new toy to try out.

[jrsthethird]

Wizards did something right for once. Combo gets a niche tool, we get a couple graveyard synergy creatures, and a couple cool GSZ targets. Interesting cards without breaking the format.

The lack of interesting staples (which they have been pushing hard in other supplemental constructed products) makes me wish I didn't preorder a set of decks. I guess they'll be in storage for a while now.

[Barook]

But obviously they do because they banned both...?
They took an entire year to ban DTT, although it was crystal clear that the card was busted immediately after the TC ban.


I'm pretty sure their care level is just slightly above 'lets kill it.' Lets be honest here, its 2015 and they still print way more good blue cards than any other color, they only 'test' for a meta they think will exist a year down the road, and a limited environment, but still print things like pack rat. I think they've also established that they don't care about what is happening to prices, and that any actual reprint is probably just a happy accident that happens to alleviate prices. I expect nothing positive from current WOTC.
Legacy isn't as well-supported as it used to be on MTGO, too.

As for the promo thing, you might be right. It took them 15 months to reprint another decent MOCS promo (GP Art Griselbrand). In the meantime, we got mediocre or downright terrible cards like a reprinted Vindicate (it uses the old art instead of the new Judge promo art) which still isn't worth more than 3$. All while Rishadan Port is now 175$ and the most expensive card on MTGO while the Judge promo variant rots in their database since January.

[JPoJohnson]

I look at this product and from an EDh perspective don't see any new legendaries that I'm keen on brewing with. From a Legacy perspective, still nothing I'm keen on using.


I'll just pretend this product didn't happen.

[Bosque]

I dunno, I'll grab a copy of Meren of Clan Nel Toth and fiddle with it in BUG pod nic fit and maybe some GSZ decks.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Another (small thing): Melen of Clan Nel Toth plays well with Dryad Arbor (another card you're likely to play if you have Green Sun's Zenith in your deck): Dryad Arbor is a creature that has a casting cost of 0. Even if you don't have any experience counters, Meren will always return Dryad Arbor directly to the battlefield.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Unsurprisingly Mystic Confluence is preselling for the highest amount ($7.99). Karlov of the Ghost Council is 2nd at $4.99.
Eldrazi Monument is the most valuable card in all 5 decks at $9.99.

[apple713]

Would mizzex mastery allows a player to pay additional costs such as replicate and multikicker as many times as they want?

so if mizzex master was cast on pyromatics you could instantly kill someone right?

117.8. Some spells and abilities have additional costs. An additional cost is a cost listed in a spell’s rules text, or applied to a spell or ability from another effect, that its controller must pay at the same time that player pays the spell’s mana cost or the ability’s activation cost. A cost is an additional cost only if it’s phrased using the word “additional.” Note that some additional costs are listed in keywords; see rule 702.

117.8a Any number of additional costs may be applied to a spell as it’s being cast or to an ability as it’s being activated. The controller of the spell or ability announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs as described in rule 601.2b.

[Megadeus]

Would mizzex mastery allows a player to pay additional costs such as replicate and multikicker as many times as they want?

so if mizzex master was cast on pyromatics you could instantly kill someone right?

I don't believe so, but don't quote me on that

[rufus]

Would mizzex mastery allows a player to pay additional costs such as replicate and multikicker as many times as they want?

so if mizzex master was cast on pyromatics you could instantly kill someone right?

Additional costs like that can be paid, but they're not part of the "mana cost of the spell" for effects like Mizzix's Mastery, so they cost mana.

[tescrin]

To clarify further, Replicate is like Storm; A triggered ability. So you paid all the mana up front for the initial spell (via Mizzix) and then you got the trigger asking for 34-38 more mana to finish the job; which all are copies and all have to paid for in one go (the copies don't trigger more IIRC)

[apple713]

Additional costs like that can be paid, but they're not part of the "mana cost of the spell" for effects like Mizzix's Mastery, so they cost mana.


thanks

I found it

117.8d Additional costs don’t change a spell’s mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell’s mana cost still see the original value.

[Barook]

Just realized this:

Sword of War and Peace + Magus of the Wheel - swing with an equipped creature, put the trigger on the stack, activate Magus of the Wheel to ideally gain 7 and deal 7 extra damage. That's extremely brutal. If put on a double striker like Mirran Crusader, that's a total of 22 damage which should be an instagib against the vast majority of decks.

Even in the worst case scenario of fearing your opponent's newly drawn removal, you can do this:
Swing, first strike 4 damage ---> trigger, deal damage depending on cards, 4 normal damage, trigger on stack, Magus in response, still deal ~5-7 extra damage. Even 15 damage for playing it save can still be extremely lethal.