[COMM] Commander 2015 Spoiler Discussion

[H]

Only one so far and, or course, it's not at all Legacy playable:

http://i.imgur.com/9xDnC7I.jpg?1

For EDH, it's a somewhat interesting "Skullbriar-like" effect.

Hopefully next week we get some real previews though, just getting the ball rolling with the tread.

[Echelon]

I'm wondering what they're going to do with experience counters. Seems like a needless complication to the game. Not only having to track how much life you have, but also the number of experience counters you've accumulated.

What's next? Players leveling up for certain bonuses?

[H]

I'm wondering what they're going to do with experience counters. Seems like a needless complication to the game. Not only having to track how much life you have, but also the number of experience counters you've accumulated.

What's next? Players leveling up for certain bonuses?

There are all sorts of awkward things to have to track in the game, from Storm counts to poison counters. In EDH, there are the number of times you've cast your General from the Command Zone. One more thing is exactly that to me, just one more thing...

[TsumiBand]

Man whatever I love trash like this.

I love Level-up and I love mixing RPG stuff in with Magic and I love the idea of experience counters for permanents/players/deck boxes/whatever.

I'm probably over Magic at this point because, like, I'm old and busy and my cards all suck and I just play Hearthstone when my kids are asleep, but like -- this looks fun.

[H]

Man whatever I love trash like this.

I love Level-up and I love mixing RPG stuff in with Magic and I love the idea of experience counters for permanents/players/deck boxes/whatever.

I'm probably over Magic at this point because, like, I'm old and busy and my cards all suck and I just play Hearthstone when my kids are asleep, but like -- this looks fun.

I kind of like the card. Play some other Giants, like people have pointed out Sunrise Sovereign, or Stoneforge on roids, Stonehewer Giant, giants have some interesting cards. Sure, this isn't going to challenge Zur or Riku, or whatever, but it's at least interesting.

Deck is basically giants, some crappy colorless acceleration, and equipment. If anyone actually played EDH in our group, I'd build that.

[rufus]

I kind of like the card. Play some other Giants, like people have pointed out Sunrise Sovereign, or Stoneforge on roids, Stonehewer Giant, giants have some interesting cards. Sure, this isn't going to challenge Zur or Riku, or whatever, but it's at least interesting.

Deck is basically giants, some crappy colorless acceleration, and equipment. If anyone actually played EDH in our group, I'd build that.

You can also play alternative CC critters like Ingot Chewer and Reveillark.

[Megadeus]

You can also play alternative CC critters like Ingot Chewer and Reveillark.

It only triggers on power 5 or greater dudes

[Lemnear]

It only triggers on power 5 or greater dudes

It says cmc not power

[jrsthethird]

With the release a month away I'm just glad to see something.

[Megadeus]

It says cmc not power

I guess I'm either dyslexic or retarded. Probably both

[Jon]

I guess I'm either dyslexic or retarded. Probably both

Both


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[tescrin]

I guess I'm either dyslexic or retarded. Probably both
http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/
http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/

I seem to be bad at interneting as I can't get the image to show.

[Barook]

Wade into Battle? Why must Wizards make R/W always about combat?

At least there's hope BG is going to deliver, considering how much they love the color combination.

Edit: Any bets how often they're going to rehash Lighning Helix effects in the R/W precon? :wink:

[Megadeus]

http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/
http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/

I seem to be bad at interneting as I can't get the image to show.

Are you trying to lure me into the basement of an abandoned house so you can murder me for money to purchase drugs?

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/
http://postimg.org/image/5k977wcn1/

I seem to be bad at interneting as I can't get the image to show.

http://s14.postimg.org/y9w34jgn3/Faleen_s_Letter_to_Calcelmo.png
You press on the little picture of the tree, then paste the URL. :wink:
(Or use [ IMG][ /IMG] the same as you'd do for card tags.)

[iamajellydonut]

http://s14.postimg.org/y9w34jgn3/Faleen_s_Letter_to_Calcelmo.png
You press on the little picture of the tree, then paste the URL. :wink:
(Or use [ IMG][ /IMG] the same as you'd do for card tags.)

You are both genuinely terrible at this...

http://s14.postimg.org/ibndeemf3/Faleen_s_Letter_to_Calcelmo.png

[JPoJohnson]

With an ability like that, I'm curious what the two alternate commanders in the deck are! Ofttimes it's the alternates that are the real gems.

[(nameless one)]

I have a feeling that the U/R one will be artifact based. Second coming of Daretti perhaps?

[jrsthethird]

Edit: Any bets how often they're going to rehash Lighning Helix effects in the R/W precon? :wink:

Perhaps:

:3::r::w:
Iroan Helix
Instant
Iroan Helix deals 5 damage to target creature or player. You gain 5 life.

[Barook]

Perhaps:

:3::r::w:
Iroan Helix
Instant
Iroan Helix deals 5 damage to target creature or player. You gain 5 life.
Try :4::r::w: and it would sound like something like they would do.

Thinking about it, experience counters sound like an interesting resource system if executed well. The condition on this commander obviously sucks, but on cheaper cards with easier trigger conditions, it might be cool, like "When ~ deals combat damage to a player, you get an experience counter". Other cards could get boni based on your experience counters that aren't as lame as +1/+1. There's also proliferate which does work with player counters.

It's probably going to be wasted on a bunch of overcosted jank, though, while Standard sets are going to deliver a steady stream of rehashed mechanics. :rolleyes:

[PirateKing]

It'd be cool if experience was something that never left the game, so if a player caused another player to leave the game, they gained all the dead player's experience. So when you're down to the last two players, each has access to some truly overpowered spells.

[TsumiBand]

It'd be cool if experience was something that never left the game, so if a player caused another player to leave the game, they gained all the dead player's experience. So when you're down to the last two players, each has access to some truly overpowered spells.

Good call, I'm sure they'll print something with some ability like "when this deals damage to a player, if that player would lose the game, you gain experience counters equal to the number of experience counters they have" or some jank. Heh. Whether or not they give you half the money in their wallet is probably best left as a house rule.

I expect that if "experience matters" is a mechanic there will be a nonzero number of support spells and creatures that do more if you have more experience. I can dig it

[Lemnear]

I would bet an Arm that the conditions to gain these "experience counters" are as dumb (do damage, cast creatures, cast uncompeditive expensive spells) as the spells that profit from it (in before: Mythic Hydra which gets +1/+1 counter for each experience counter).

Honestly gentlemen, this is simply just YET ANOTHER FUCKING KICKER VARIANT!

[iamajellydonut]

Good call, I'm sure they'll print something with some ability like "when this deals damage to a player, if that player would lose the game, you gain experience counters equal to the number of experience counters they have" or some jank. Heh. Whether or not they give you half the money in their wallet is probably best left as a house rule.

I expect that if "experience matters" is a mechanic there will be a nonzero number of support spells and creatures that do more if you have more experience. I can dig it

I mean, considering the condition here is "cast a creature spell with CMC >4", I can't imagine that the support for experience will be too extensive.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There are only 55 new cards...
I'm guessing there will be 5 cards that have 'experience' printed on them, all will be creatures and one of them is Kalemne.
I'm using history as my reasoning. Last set the "Planeswalker can be your Commander" wording was on 5 cards. Before that the "(effect) for as much as you spend on your Commander" was printed on 3 cards (4 if you count Opal Palace).



@Lemnear: How is this a Kicker variant?
Kicker and its variations are: "as you cast this spell, pay (additional cost) and (added benefit)".

Experience counters appear to work in this manner: "fulfill (requirement) and you get an experience counter". Then the creature gets modified in some manner based on how many times it saw you fulfill (requirement).
This seems closer to the ascension, quest, and expedition cards in the original Zendikar (Pyromancer Ascension, Quest for the Holy Relic, Khalni Heart Expedition) where WotC wants you to accomplish a task (instead of pay a cost) to get the benefit.




Also a reminder to all... Expectations for legacy playable cards should be extremely low! If we get 2 cards that would be a lot.

From Commander 2014 we got:
Containment Priest
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Dualcaster Mage

And calling 3 of those Legacy cards is really stretching the truth.

Commander 2013 gave us:
Unexpectedly Absent
True-Name Nemesis
Toxic Deluge
Sudden Demise

And only 2/3 of those really see any play at all.

[jrsthethird]

Also original Commander gave us

Flusterstorm
Scavenging Ooze
Chaos Warp

Anything else new and remotely playable in the first one?

[tescrin]

Are you trying to lure me into the basement of an abandoned house so you can murder me for money to purchase drugs?

Are... are you into that?


You are both genuinely terrible at this...
http://s14.postimg.org/ibndeemf3/Faleen_s_Letter_to_Calcelmo.png

lol I'm hoping this was a joke that was just executed with perfect sarcasm. Either way; it's that way in my brain mind.

[Lemnear]

How can you deny that this is a kicker-variant? Your additional investment is simply playing cards that add experience counters which isn't far off the principle of bloodrush which had it's kicker-effect tacked on damaging the opponent before casting the creature.

It doesn't matter if you pay additional mana or have to fulfil special conditions, the essence of the Kicker-cards is to grant additional buffs to the cards usual effect under given circumstances. Unfortunately most are executed in a way to benefit you if you are already in a favorable Position rather than the opposite aka to turn the tides of a game (like the awesome Fateful Hour)

[Ace/Homebrew]

How can you deny that this is a kicker-variant? Your additional investment is simply playing cards that add experience counters which isn't far off the principle of bloodrush which had it's kicker-effect tacked on damaging the opponent before casting the creature.
What? :eyebrow:

Let's look at bloodrush.
Ghor-Clan Rampager
Bloodrush - :r::g:, Discard ~: Target attacking creature gets +4/+4 and gains trample until end of turn.

The bloodrush ability basically turns a creature into a Giant Growth-style pump spell. That is nothing like a kicker variant...
Again, Kicker tacks an extra cost onto a spell to add additional benefits.

Here's some actual Kicker knock-offs:
Awaken
Entwine
Bestow
Buyback
Exploit
Extort
Overload
Replicate

Bloodrush is more like the Command cycles where you choose a mode. You either choose the 'creature' mode for :2::r::g: or the 'pump spell' mode for :r::g:.

The single example we have involving experience counters is nothing like Kicker. You get the bonus by playing OTHER spells... AFTER Kalemne has already resolved. Kicker's whole thing is that it is an add-on option to the spell being kicked. The additional costs have to be paid as the spell is being played (see any of the keyword examples I provided above).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/48/70/fc/4870fcd27728171f50a225c9d07f697d.jpg

[TsumiBand]

The kicker comparison makes no sense whatsoever at all ever in the history of all things

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Awaken
Entwine
Bestow
Buyback
Exploit
Extort
Overload
Replicate

Sounds like some hardcore deaththrash lyrics.

"Awaken! The fury of the beast!
Entwine! The one that gives you feast!
Bestow! The thrill of kill you need!
Buyback! The glory of your deed!
Exploit! The weakness of the foe!
Extort! In darkness you're no more.
Overload and slay what makes you bleed!
Replicate! The creed of dying breed!
Aaarrrgh!"

http://assets.noisey.com/content-images/contentimage/23604/Favim.com-16954.jpg


Also, I haven't checked the contents of Commander 2015 at all, so may I join the discussion with an opinion on how this new box will completely disbalance Legacy and/or bring nothing new to it?

[TsumiBand]

How can you deny that this is a kicker-variant? Your additional investment is simply playing cards

If playing cards to gain an effect in conjunction with your other cards is "a Kicker variant" then this entire game is just secretly the Kicker mechanic. I think you're trying a little too hard to see a parallel where none exists.

[Cire]

If we're making crazy analogies its more like a narrower but more permanent prowess type effect that uses counters that accumulate on players like poison - a.k.a. Kicker.

[Lemnear]

Confused Bloodrush and Bloodthirst. My bad here.

I stand my point in the bigger context: Cardeffect + additional effect, if condition x is met or additional cost y is payed is nothing else than kicker for me

[TsumiBand]

Confused Bloodrush and Bloodthirst. My bad here.

I stand my point in the bigger context: Cardeffect + additional effect, if condition x is met or additional cost y is payed is nothing else than kicker for me

So Goblin Warchief gives your Goblins "Kicker -- -1: If you paid the kicker cost, this creature has haste"?

[iatee]

IMO the worst thing about having endless kicker variants is that they make the mtg rulebook longer and longer without adding much to the gameplay. Occasionally the differences between the kicker mechanics actually ends up mattering (eg you can't overload a spell you flashbacked w/ snapcaster but you can kicker it) - and it's annoying / not-intuitive because all kicker mechanics 'feel' the same.

[iatee]

I don't think anyone would be that bothered if wizards just made kicker evergreen and just used it all the time. Kinda think they overrate how much people care about 'new mechanics' vs. having a well made set for standard/limited + powerful cards for older formats.

[Cire]

I stand my point in the bigger context: Cardeffect + additional effect, if condition x is met or additional cost y is payed is nothing else than kicker for me

So Blood Tyrant has kicker now :eyebrow:

[Ace/Homebrew]

So Goblin Warchief gives your Goblins "Kicker -- -1: If you paid the kicker cost, this creature has haste"?
Now I get it!

So Infernal Tutor is: Kicker -- If you have no cards in your hand, search for a card and shuffle your library.

And Glimpse of Nature is: Kicker -- Play a creature, draw a card.

Wow, everything really is just a form of Kicker.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/5xaYLxI6riEuY/200_s.gif

[TsumiBand]

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=White+Knight&color=White&mana_r=0&mana_u=0&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=2&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F438174173.jpg&supertype=&cardtype=Creature&subtype=Human+Knight&expansion=Revised&rarity=Uncommon&cardtext=First+strike%2C+protection+from+black%0D%0A%0D%0AKicker+-+Control+a+card+named+Crusade%2C+which+gives+white+creatures+%2B1%2F%2B1%2C+to+also+give+this+creature+that+bonus.&power=2&toughness=2&artist=Lemnear&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=0&set2=0&setname=Arabian+Knights+in+Rodanthe

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Ancestral+Recall&color=Blue&mana_r=0&mana_u=1&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F972179034.png&supertype=&cardtype=Instant&subtype=&expansion=&rarity=Common&cardtext=Target+player+draws.+Kicker%3A+if+that+player+has+cards+in+their+library%2C+3+of+those.&power=&toughness=&artist=A+wizard&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=12&set2=Cats&setname=Memorex

[jrsthethird]

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=White+Knight&color=White&mana_r=0&mana_u=0&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=2&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F438174173.jpg&supertype=&cardtype=Creature&subtype=Human+Knight&expansion=Revised&rarity=Uncommon&cardtext=First+strike%2C+protection+from+black%0D%0A%0D%0AKicker+-+Control+a+card+named+Crusade%2C+which+gives+white+creatures+%2B1%2F%2B1%2C+to+also+give+this+creature+that+bonus.&power=2&toughness=2&artist=Lemnear&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=0&set2=0&setname=Arabian+Knights+in+Rodanthe

http://www.mtgcardmaker.com/mcmaker/createcard.php?name=Ancestral+Recall&color=Blue&mana_r=0&mana_u=1&mana_g=0&mana_b=0&mana_w=0&mana_colorless=0&picture=tempimages%2F972179034.png&supertype=&cardtype=Instant&subtype=&expansion=&rarity=Common&cardtext=Target+player+draws.+Kicker%3A+if+that+player+has+cards+in+their+library%2C+3+of+those.&power=&toughness=&artist=A+wizard&bottom=™+%26+©+1993-2013+Wizards+of+the+Coast+LLC&set1=12&set2=Cats&setname=Memorex

XD

[thecrav]

That Recall is worse in that I can't kill my opponent with it lol

[TsumiBand]

That Recall is worse in that I can't kill my opponent with it lol

Especially in Legacy

[Anen]

Ancestral kicker
https://i.imgflip.com/snwvn.jpg

[Lemnear]

Yeah doods. Ignore what I said, make something up I did not say and make a meme out of it. Excellent

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah doods. Ignore what I said, make something up I did not say and make a meme out of it. Excellent

http://mtgcardsmith.com/view/complete/full/2015/10/16/1445037056502999.png

[Whitefaces]

10/10

I love this site sometimes.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Can I use this recall to draw into top 8?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

10/10

I love this site sometimes.

Yeah, that Lemenar's post really kicked off the discussion.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Lemenar's post really kicked off the discussion.
Hah! :laugh:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt202/drvkid2/new4%202010/kicker.gif

I honestly don't care if all 55 new cards are garbage now.

[Aggro_zombies]

This thread is for discussion of new cards in Commander 2015, not discussion of how Lemnear is bitter that Wizards is still printing new Magic sets. Let's get back on topic.

EDIT:

Re-Rail The Thread
1U
Instant
Kicker - Reveal a preview card
Get target thread back on topic using your awesome mod powers. If the kicker cost was paid, target Lemnear is vocally upset until end of preview season.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Re-Rail The Thread
1U
Instant
Kicker - Reveal a preview card
Get target thread back on topic using your awesome mod powers. If the kicker cost was paid, target Lemnear is vocally upset until end of preview season.
Of course blue gets that card. :mad:
That's not even part of blue's slice of the color pie. Should have totally been white. I hate WotC...

[Quasim0ff]

I'm behind schedule, but according to Rosewater (@Roborosewater, anyhow...) kicker has (among other things) this use:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJF6HezWIAA1trY.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHQj87zUsAArPar.jpg

[tescrin]

his picture
I didn't think one could top the original two; but this is amazing.

EDIT: Apologies for the continuation. Knee-jerk reaction (cuz I'm a jerk.)

[rufus]

I'm behind schedule, but according to Rosewater (@Roborosewater, anyhow...) kicker has (among other things) this use:

...

Roborosewater produces some amazing stuff. Maybe R&D could learn something from it.

[Finn]

I dunno AZ. Considering we have bubkus to go on so far, this conversation has really been a fantastic waste of time.

None of those cards make a lick of sense but Quasimoff, "(they was kicked)" made me LOL.

[H]

I was hoping they would spoil something during the Pro Tour, but they just announced the Snapcaster RPTQ Promo instead.

[Cire]

I was hoping they would spoil something during the Pro Tour, but they just announced the Snapcaster RPTQ Promo instead.

Ugh! Another card with Kicker :mad:

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_KPmNZx3JbO.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_B0O6oNn7A6.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_xsBKMcuKF4.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_GCqEcaoJng.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_TcBOuvOgDK.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_fuAvaxRz0L.png

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_wMMkFuNmJ5.png

Okay, think I got them all...

[Barook]

There's also this:

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_vwrBandHD7.png

I don't think any of those are Legacy-playable.

The BG is probably the most interesting out of the bunch.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Expectations for legacy playable cards should be extremely low!
Obviously Myriad has no application to 1v1 formats. :rolleyes:

Fiery Confluence is pretty interesting and appears to be the first in a cycle.
Mizzix of the Izmagnus looks like an homage to Steamflogger Boss. Maybe we'll see a rigger creature?

[iatee]

that 2RR spell would be a powerful modern sideboard card, but alas

[iamajellydonut]

The BG is probably the most interesting out of the bunch.

5cc Conditional Glorious Anthem seems pretty bad.

That said, I think we all wish the red sorcery was an instant.

[Barook]

5cc Conditional Glorious Anthem seems pretty bad.
I said interesting, not Legacy-playable. It can be fired off multiple times, so there's that.

Another card:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/147/82/635820550763116334.png

Why this isn't GW instead of BW - I don't know.

[Ace/Homebrew]

When Kalemne was originally handed off from design, she actually awarded you experience counters for playing Giant spells. As we iterated on the decks and cards during the development process, we ended up changing her to have the more open-ended condition you see here, so that players could choose how they wanted to build different varieties of Kalemne decks. However, a Giant-tribal theme is still present in the deck.
Hah! The Kalemne we got was actually the powered-UP version. :rolleyes:

So Myriad is pretty useless with Legendary creatures?

[Barook]

So Myriad is pretty useless with Legendary creatures?
You can still get triggered abilities like CIPs.

It also works with static effects like Elesh Norn. Let's say you have 3 opponents, all their creatures get -6/-6 for a brief moment. See the rules regarding that.

[iamajellydonut]

Why this isn't GW instead of BW - I don't know.

First thing I thought as well.

[maharis]

Those are some bad cards.

The BG thing is interesting with Sylvan Safekeeper, but Titania probably better.

New Daxos has potential in some Serra's Sanctum deck, I think, but not enough to move the needle.

Scytheclaw instead of Batterskull in combo matchups would be funny, but Batterskull is probably just as good at putting games out of reach.

Fiery Confluence is nearly a guaranteed two-for-one if it resolves vs. any Stoneforge deck, but probably not as good as Kolaghan's Command.

Was really hoping for a good U/G creature for Zenith Bant, oh well.

[maharis]

also:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/commander-2015-mechanics-2015-11-02

"The five marquis legendary creatures in this release..."

I have been an editor for a long time and I've never seen anyone use the wrong "marquee." Unless they are trying to get some new usage to stick... :laugh:

[rufus]

...

The BG is probably the most interesting out of the bunch.

Mizzix of the Izmagnus works with X casting cost spells. In the unlikely event that he hits the table and survives, things can ramp quickly even without that.


Edit: I guess he *might* work in some kind of modern storm deck. Reedit: not legal.

[rufus]

...

I have been an editor for a long time and I've never seen anyone use the wrong "marquee." Unless they are trying to get some new usage to stick... :laugh:

Maybe Marquis is a new creature type. In addition to occupational creature type, we now get ranks of nobility. :tongue:

[Megadeus]

Mizzix of the Izmagnus works with X casting cost spells. In the unlikely event that he hits the table and survives, things can ramp quickly even without that.


Edit: I guess he *might* work in some kind of modern storm deck.

Except for the fact that none of these cards will be modern legal

[rufus]

Except for the fact that none of these cards will be modern legal

Yeah, I can't be assed to remember what sets are legal where, so I checked a random Commander 2014 card on Gatherer, but, of course that one was probably a reprint from some legal set.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Fiery Confluence is interesting. Also of note: It's part of a cycle, according to Mark Rosewater. That makes me very curious what the black and the blue will do. A man can hope.

[Barook]

Yeah, I can't be assed to remember what sets are legal where, so I checked a random Commander 2014 card on Gatherer, but, of course that one was probably a reprint from some legal set.
Highly unlikely, unless they make experience counters more than just a throwaway niche mechanic.

Edit:

Fiery Confluence is interesting. Also of note: It's part of a cycle, according to Mark Rosewater. That makes me very curious what the black and the blue will do. A man can hope.
Blue is probably cantrip, bounce and ?
Black almost definitely has discard in it.

And both have Eternal-unplayable mana costs (4+, rather 5, depending on the effects).

[iamajellydonut]

Blue is probably cantrip, bounce and ?

Moist Confluence :1::u::u:
Instant
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. Counter target spell.
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
Draw four cards.

[Finn]

I like the red confluence. Casual multiplayer commander games always seem to boil down to who has the best "I keel you all! Ahhahhahh!" endgame maneuvers. I loved Commander for the first few weeks until I detected the futility of strategic innovation. Aggro is pointless and combo gets boned by having too many opponents. Prison just annoys people without actually killing anyone. Etc.

Anything that looks and smells like aggro can only be good for Commander. The format needs a clock.

[Richard Cheese]

Moist Confluence :1::u::u:
Instant
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. Counter target spell.
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
Draw four cards.

My Confluence is Moistened.

Meanwhile black will probably get something like:

Spooky Confluence :3::b::b::b:
Extra Sorcery (Can only be cast during your first main phase)
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once.

Search your library for a demon card with converted mana cost 7 or greater, reveal it, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it. You lose 4 life.
Each opponent loses one life. Gain life equal to the amount of life lost this way.
Put a 2/2 Zombie creature token onto the battlefield. If you do, sacrifice a creature.

[iamajellydonut]

Meanwhile black will probably get something like:

Spooky Confluence

"Fukken brilliant!" -WotC

[Quasim0ff]

Moist Confluence :1::u::u:
Instant
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. Counter target spell.
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
Draw four cards.

Both 4Head and EleGiggle are suitable for that card.

[Barook]

Moist Confluence :1::u::u:
Instant
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. Counter target spell.
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
Draw four cards.
Tripple countering does seem kinda pointless as a mod. And a Draw 12? Sure. :tongue: It would be pretty much a Cryptic Command variant without the tap down at that point.

And I can see them printing a Draw 3 below 4 mana, so the CC is probably :2::u::u:.

[Cire]

Scytheclaw is worse than Batterskull due to Batterskulls lifegain and toughness, but it does kill faster by one turn :tongue:. (20 life --> attack --> 19 Life --> Lose half rounded up --> 9 Life --> attack --> 8 Life --> Lose half rounded up --> 4 --> attack --> 3 life --> Lose half rounded up --> 1 life --> attack --> win)

[PirateKing]

Scytheclaw is worse than Batterskull due to Batterskulls lifegain and toughness, but it does kill faster by one turn :tongue:. (20 life --> attack --> 19 Life --> Lose half rounded up --> 9 Life --> attack --> 8 Life --> Lose half rounded up --> 4 --> attack --> 3 life --> Lose half rounded up --> 1 life --> attack --> win)

Batterskull also has that nice ":3:: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand." making reactivation after combat possible. Here your shitty 1/1 dies and you're stuck until you have something else to hold the stick.

[iamajellydonut]

And a Draw 12? Sure. :tongue:

That do be the joke, good sir.

[TsumiBand]

Scytheclaw and any similar effect is just laughably bad all the time forever.

I was really ready to enjoy playing the 6-to-the-face-for-4 Red spell until jellydumptruck reminded me that Instants are also a card type. Now I feel bad for playing Sorcery speed burn. The fuck's a matter with Magic cards, man

[H]

Some lulz-y new Blue cards:

http://i.imgur.com/YvBtfWt.png
http://i.imgur.com/yIH16OU.png

The clone is pretty funny really.

[Barook]

Isn't that a strictly better Clone? The base power thing is interesting and probably best used with something like double strike for ridiculous scaling.

[TsumiBand]

Is that Fblthp off on another whirlwind adventure? I'm ready for Fblthp's spark to ignite

[iamajellydonut]

Isn't that a strictly better Clone?

Muraganda Petroglyphs? :D

[Barook]

Muraganda Petroglyphs? :D
If you don't copy a vanilla creature, it doesn't apply anyway.

[iamajellydonut]

If you don't copy a vanilla creature, it doesn't apply anyway.

Why would you ever copy anything other than Scaled Wurm?

[rufus]

Isn't that a strictly better Clone? The base power thing is interesting and probably best used with something like double strike for ridiculous scaling.

By itself, it's not a good ability.

Illusory Ambusher + Fire Covenant is not utterly terribad, probably OK in commander.

The clone combos with Reveillark if you use the ability with X=0. Of course that's nothing special.

[Cire]

I've been curious - what happens if you Clone a Giddeon while he is impersonating a creature or a black lotus enchanted with Ensoul Artifact, does the clone come into play as a Giddeon or Black Lotus?

[Barook]

I've been curious - what happens if you Clone a Giddeon while he is impersonating a creature or a black lotus enchanted with Ensoul Artifact, does the clone come into play as a Giddeon or Black Lotus?
You get the unanimated card, so the Gideon PW or the Black Lotus.

What happens to the Gigantoplasm ability if you activate it in that case, though? I assume nothing as long as it isn't a creature since it doesn't animate?

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/u7YAjZ9.png

I wish it wouldn't give your opponent stuff as well. Then it would be Legacy-playable.

[jrsthethird]

I said interesting, not Legacy-playable. It can be fired off multiple times, so there's that.

Another card:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/147/82/635820550763116334.png

Why this isn't GW instead of BW - I don't know.

Origins gave black a small push in "Enchantment matters" stuff. Not too surprising. See: Blood-Cursed Knight, Blightcaster.


Moist Confluence :1::u::u:
Instant
Choose three. You may choose the same mode more than once. Counter target spell.
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
Draw four cards.

You forgot the alternate casting cost of "Control an island".

[Anen]

You forgot the alternate casting cost of "Control an island".

Kicker - Control an Island. If you paid the kicker cost, choose 6 modes instead.

[Gheizen64]

Not sure why stryx can exist and this viper can't return a card for you only. WotC Plz. It would've been a perfectly fine card for legacy without the opponent's clause. Not sure if playable, maybe BUG would've played it? Whatever.

[Barook]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/commander-2015-home

- WB seems to be enchantment/token based
- UR is obviously spell-based
- BG is sacrifice-based
- WR is large-creature/combat focused
- UG is harder to figure out - we know that the experience Commander is going to be a Phyrexian Ezuri. Based on the description, it might have a counter-subtheme (Infect, +1/+1 counters, etc.).

[Gheizen64]

Also illusory ambusher is effectively a draw 4-5 that also gain you that much life AND remove a creature! Broken! At 4U instant!

Blocking a 3/4 goyf is like 10 effective card swing.

[rufus]

...
- UG is harder to figure out - we know that the experience Commander is going to be a Phyrexian Ezuri. Based on the description, it might have a counter-subtheme (Infect, +1/+1 counters, etc.).

It looks like a little snake tribal theme might be in there.

I think skullwinder has the secondary effect for commander politics, which is IMO not so terrible.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe they're trying to push Storm again (U/R), this time for commander!

[Barook]

Nevermind, it didn't have Infect:

http://i.imgur.com/SlOkQFs.jpg

Too bad it can't pump itself.

[rufus]

...

Too bad it can't pump itself.


And it has to put all the +1/+1s on the same creature too.


OTOH, this is probably the right choice if you want to get a huge number of experience counters. Super-jank possibilities with Tetravus.

[Darkenslight]

And it has to put all the +1/+1s on the same creature too.


OTOH, this is probably the right choice if you want to get a huge number of experience counters. Super-jank possibilities with Tetravus.

Spawnwrithe?

That said, you can make a fairly ridiculous 5c Commander deck revolving around power 2 or less with Alesha, who Smiles at Death, Mentor of the Meek and this.

[spirit of the wretch]

Ezuri + Avenger of Zendikar => Lots of experience.
And Avenger is already kind of nuts by itself.

That beeing said, I'm pretty disappointed in the :u::g: legends. I was really hoping for some sweet op guy (like Edric for example).

[Cire]

http://i.imgur.com/u7YAjZ9.png


I don't think it's that bad - death touch and easier to cast than Witness for any deck running gift or intuition piles?

[H]

I don't think it's that bad - death touch and easier to cast than Witness for any deck running gift or intuition piles?

Did you miss that it gives your opponent back a card of their choice too?

[ReAnimator]

Vine Centaur 3G
Creature - Centaur Plant (R)
Trample
When Vine Centaur enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each land in all graveyards.
Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from anywhere, you may pay GG. If you do, return Vine Centaur from the graveyard to your hand.
1/1

Recursive Terravores are my Jam. This is going in a bunch of my EDH decks. I love everything about this card.

[Zombie]

Vine Centaur 3G
Creature - Centaur Plant (R)
Trample
When Vine Centaur enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each land in all graveyards.
Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from anywhere, you may pay GG. If you do, return Vine Centaur from the graveyard to your hand.
1/1

Recursive Terravores are my Jam. This is going in a bunch of my EDH decks. I love everything about this card.

That is actually a really fun design.

[rufus]

Sandstone Oracle
7
When Sandstone Oracle enters the battlefield, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.


Do any of the decks that run Metalworker, Welder or Forgemaster want to use this as a hand refill? At 7 you could even Transmute Artifact a Myr Enforcer.

[Morte]

Vine Centaur 3G
Creature - Centaur Plant (R)
Trample
When Vine Centaur enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each land in all graveyards.
Whenever a land is put into a graveyard from anywhere, you may pay GG. If you do, return Vine Centaur from the graveyard to your hand.
1/1

Recursive Terravores are my Jam. This is going in a bunch of my EDH decks. I love everything about this card.

In RG Lands it seems much more than fun. An alternative wincon with perfect synergy with the deck. Could be maindeck material

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_eoVO1O6wZ9.png

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/147/131/635821408397375438.png

[iamajellydonut]

I really want to see a Legacy playable card with "myriad". I want to be able to go to a tournament, slam down the card, and count how many times a judge gets called over for help.

edit: Also, that Sphinx is playable as hell.

[H]

At first I misread that Angel. That seems kind of crazy in a Reanimator deck, if you can bin it and another fatty.

Wait, does that even work? Can you get back something even if they have no creature in the yard?

[iamajellydonut]

Can you get back something even if they have no creature in the yard?

No. The effect must be symmetrical.

Edit: I could actually be wrong. Apparently didn't read the card.

[H]

No. The effect must be symmetrical.

I'm rather confused, because on the one hand the 'then...' statement doesn't appear contingent on the first part, so I was thinking it would. Like, a "if you do" kind of thing, so doesn't the ability just do as much as it can?

[Dice_Box]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeZE3UWNoOE

Seal of the Guildpact (5)

ETB Chose two colours.

Each spell you play gets (1) cheaper for each colour is has of the chosen colours.

[ReAnimator]

I'm rather confused, because on the one hand the 'then...' statement doesn't appear contingent on the first part, so I was thinking it would. Like, a "if you do" kind of thing, so doesn't the ability just do as much as it can?

I'm pretty sure this is right, it doesn't have an "If you do" clause so it should just work.

[Davran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeZE3UWNoOE

Seal of the Guildpact (5)

ETB Chose two colours.

Each spell you play gets (1) cheaper for each colour is has of the chosen colours.

This thing seems kinda meh at 5 mana. I think I'll just stick with Gilded Lotus.

[bakofried]

New Terravore is a great fit in loam.

[H]

I'm pretty sure this is right, it doesn't have an "If you do" clause so it should just work.

Someone on Salvation just pointed out the contingency is there, just sort of hidden. You choose a card in an opponent's yard, then "that player" chooses one in yours. If you don't choose a creature, then there is no opponent to be "that player." Oh well, junk bin card now.

[ReAnimator]

Someone on Salvation just pointed out the contingency is there, just sort of hidden. You choose a card in an opponent's yard, then "that player" chooses one in yours. If you don't choose a creature, then there is no opponent to be "that player." Oh well, junk bin card now.

Ah that makes sense. I really wish this stuff was all phrased similarly, it's super confusing especially at a kitchen table where this stuff is going to come up.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm rather confused

Bwoop.

I think I misread it. Thought it said "target" when it doesn't.

[Cire]

Did you miss that it gives your opponent back a card of their choice too?

No - I'm just saying that sometimes, and depending on your decks design or what deck your opponent is playing you don't really care if they get a card back.

[TsumiBand]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_TcBOuvOgDK.png

Not that there aren't already a fuck-dozen ways to flip the table, but this pretty much lets you draw T&N for Craterhoof and SFM to kill an entire table rather single-handedly. Yay.

[rufus]

Bwoop.

I think I misread it. Thought it said "target" when it doesn't.

Don't worry. I thought you guys were still talking about the snake.

[iamajellydonut]

Don't worry. I thought you guys were still talking about the snake.

We're truly an inspiration to the world.

[Dice_Box]

Not that there aren't already a fuck-dozen ways to flip the table, but this pretty much lets you draw T&N for Craterhoof and SFM to kill an entire table rather single-handedly. Yay.

Almost makes me want to play EDH.

[apple713]

Maybe this guy will see play with that blade.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370515&type=card

[H]

Maybe this guy will see play with that blade.

Unfortunately Myriad puts the token in tapped and attacking, otherwise this would be hilarious.

[Barook]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/c15_9dsm28ccakCDSk2/en_TcBOuvOgDK.png

Not that there aren't already a fuck-dozen ways to flip the table, but this pretty much lets you draw T&N for Craterhoof and SFM to kill an entire table rather single-handedly. Yay.
I like the way you're thinking. GW Hoofblade - the Hoof has been hassled.

As for Ezuri, he curves nicely into Deranged Hermit.

I like the Vine Centaur for dedicated Loam strategies. Probably the most Legacy-playable card out of the bunch so far.

[rufus]

Unfortunately Myriad puts the token in tapped and attacking, otherwise this would be hilarious.

So you use Stoneforge Mystic instead. Maybe something a little more fun like Nevermaker.

[rufus]

What happens if a player casts Ezuris' Predation with Doubling Season in play, and there's an opponent with creatures? "... Each of those beasts fights a different one of [the creatures your opponents control]" is clearly impossible if there are more beasts than creatures. Does that mean that there's no fights at all?

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/c5ii0Rm.jpg

Shame it isn't legends in general. That might have been cool.

[Aggro_zombies]

What happens if a player casts Ezuris' Predation with Doubling Season in play, and there's an opponent with creatures? "... Each of those beasts fights a different one of [the creatures your opponents control]" is clearly impossible if there are more beasts than creatures. Does that mean that there's no fights at all?
If a Beast can't fight because all available enemy creatures are being fought, then it doesn't fight. The spell explicitly prevents you from having Beasts gang up on things, so the extra guys have to just cheer from the sidelines.

[TsumiBand]

What happens if a player casts Ezuris' Predation with Doubling Season in play, and there's an opponent with creatures? "... Each of those beasts fights a different one of [the creatures your opponents control]" is clearly impossible if there are more beasts than creatures. Does that mean that there's no fights at all?

It's not any different from casting Innocent Blood when all players don't control a creature; you just resolve it as best you can. If there are no more unique targets, then those Beasts don't fight anything.

[jrsthethird]

In RG Lands it seems much more than fun. An alternative wincon with perfect synergy with the deck. Could be maindeck material

It's so good with Loam it's not funny.


Maybe this guy will see play with that blade.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370515&type=card

At first I thought "wait that's a reprint". Then I realized it's totally in line with the deck's idea and could possibly be in the RW deck anyway.


edit: Also, that Sphinx is playable as hell.

There is no sphinx.

[Ace/Homebrew]

There is no sphinx.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/80/729/635821362452616066.png

There's always a sphinx...

[iamajellydonut]

there's always a sphinx...

S.P.H.I.N.X.!

Seriously though, that thing's awesome.

[GundamGuy]

Mizzix's Mastery is surely good enough right?

[Barook]

Mizzix's Mastery is surely good enough right?
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

The copies don't add to your Storm count, though.

Magus of the Wheel :2::r:
Creature - Human Wizard
:1::r:, tap, sacrifice Magus of the Wheel: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.
3/3

Damn shame he can't be fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I wonder which deck could utilize him. Dragon Stompy to refill your hand after you lock them out? Also comboes with Shallow Grave, but Grizzelbee should be better at that.

I wonder if we get another Magus cycle of broken Instant/Sorcery spells because that would be fucking sweet.

Edit: I wonder what those could be:
White: Magus of the Balance
Blue: Magus of the Time Walk? Magus of the Recall?
Black: Magus of the (Demonic) Tutor? Magus of the Will?
Green: Magus of the Green doesn't have shit (Magus of the Eureka would probably fit the bill for a huge Commander clusterfuck)

[MrGlantz]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

The copies don't add to your Storm count, though.

Magus of the Wheel :2::r:
Creature - Human Wizard
:1::r:, tap, sacrifice Magus of the Wheel: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.
3/3

Damn shame he can't be fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I wonder which deck could utilize him. Dragon Stompy to refill your hand after you lock them out? Also comboes with Shallow Grave, but Grizzelbee should be better at that.

I wonder if we get another Magus cycle of broken Instant/Sorcery spells because that would be fucking sweet.

Edit: I wonder what those could be:
White: Magus of the Balance
Blue: Magus of the Time Walk? Magus of the Recall?
Black: Magus of the (Demonic) Tutor? Magus of the Will?
Green: Magus of the Green doesn't have shit

Magus of the channel.

[Barook]

Magus of the channel.
Fair enough.

But even if it was something like :g::g: and :1::g: to activate, it could still have potential to be quite broken. Hardcast Emrakul on T3 sounds hilarous, though.

My money is on Magus of the Eureka for now.

[(nameless one)]

Magus of the Wheel seems great with Daretti Stax.

[TsumiBand]

Why is the wording on Mizzix's Mastery so weird? "Target card that's an instant or sorcery", ewww

[Barook]

Why is the wording on Mizzix's Mastery so weird? "Target card that's an instant or sorcery", ewww
The alternative is

"Exile target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard."

No idea why they chose this templat. Sounds alot worse and the wording above should work with Overload just fine.

[Richard Cheese]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

The copies don't add to your Storm count, though.

Magus of the Wheel :2::r:
Creature - Human Wizard
:1::r:, tap, sacrifice Magus of the Wheel: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.
3/3

Damn shame he can't be fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I wonder which deck could utilize him. Dragon Stompy to refill your hand after you lock them out? Also comboes with Shallow Grave, but Grizzelbee should be better at that.

I wonder if we get another Magus cycle of broken Instant/Sorcery spells because that would be fucking sweet.

Edit: I wonder what those could be:
White: Magus of the Balance
Blue: Magus of the Time Walk? Magus of the Recall?
Black: Magus of the (Demonic) Tutor? Magus of the Will?
Green: Magus of the Green doesn't have shit (Magus of the Eureka would probably fit the bill for a huge Commander clusterfuck)

You sure? Isn't copy it, cast copy without paying different from just "copy this spell"?

[jrsthethird]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/80/729/635821362452616066.png

There's always a sphinx...

Whoops. Nobody posted the picture yet, must've missed it.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

The copies don't add to your Storm count, though.

702.39a Storm is a triggered ability that functions on the stack. “Storm” means “When you cast this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies.”

"you may cast the copy without paying it's mana cost."

I think Ol' Dick Cheese is right.


Magus of the Wheel :2::r:
Creature - Human Wizard
:1::r:, tap, sacrifice Magus of the Wheel: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws seven cards.
3/3

Damn shame he can't be fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I wonder which deck could utilize him. Dragon Stompy to refill your hand after you lock them out? Also comboes with Shallow Grave, but Grizzelbee should be better at that.

I wonder if we get another Magus cycle of broken Instant/Sorcery spells because that would be fucking sweet.

Edit: I wonder what those could be:
White: Magus of the Balance
Blue: Magus of the Time Walk? Magus of the Recall?
Black: Magus of the (Demonic) Tutor? Magus of the Will?
Green: Magus of the Green doesn't have shit (Magus of the Eureka would probably fit the bill for a huge Commander clusterfuck)

Magus of the Ancestors? Or maybe, Magus of the Brainstorm?

A Magus of the Green Sun would be kinda cool, but unlikely.

I think Balance and Eureka/Hypergenesis are spot on. The blue/black would have to be something that effects all players for it to really be fitting for a multiplayer cycle. Living Death is the obvious black one, but by that point we're just duplicating the Time Spiral suspend cycle. I can't think of anything else right now that fits though.

[Darkenslight]

702.39a Storm is a triggered ability that functions on the stack. “Storm” means “When you cast this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any of the copies.”

"you may cast the copy without paying it's mana cost."

I think Ol' Dick Cheese is right.

That might actually turn it into an auto-win button on Overload for Storm. I think this will see play as an alternative to Past in Flames.

[Dice_Box]

That might actually turn it into an auto-win button on Overload for Storm. I think this will see play as an alternative to Past in Flames.
A lovely Wish target.

[Echelon]

I dunno... PiF @4 or 5 + 1/2 mana to start flashbacking rituals seems like much easier to do then the overload card @8 mana. In the best case PiF lets you win @5 mana instead of 8, which is quite a difference.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

http://i.imgur.com/TJGxd2u.jpg

Hey look, another boring R/W general that's only interested in getting into the red zone. Really disappointed in Wizard's inability to flesh out that color combination in the way practically every other pair has been.

Edit: Holy shit, that image is almost as big as she is uninteresting.

[Lemnear]

I dunno... PiF @4 or 5 + 1/2 mana to start flashbacking rituals seems like much easier to do then the overload card @8 mana. In the best case PiF lets you win @5 mana instead of 8, which is quite a difference.

The overload card has the advantage that you can won't struggle with mana and colors after casting it in storm. Most likely more interresting for TES than ANT though

[jrsthethird]

I dunno... PiF @4 or 5 + 1/2 mana to start flashbacking rituals seems like much easier to do then the overload card @8 mana. In the best case PiF lets you win @5 mana instead of 8, which is quite a difference.

Yeah, the 8 mana jumped out at me too. You also don't get the synergy with LED: 3 mana floating + crack LED with PIF in hand.

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/TJGxd2u.jpg

Hey look, another boring R/W general that's only interested in getting into the red zone. Really disappointed in Wizard's inability to flesh out that color combination in the way practically every other pair has been.

Edit: Holy shit, that image is almost as big as she is uninteresting.
Wizards can't print interesting R/W cards even if their life depended on it. Most of the playable red cards are two other cards mashed together or token producers:

Goblin Legionnaire (before the combat rule nerf): Shock + a nerfed Healing Salve
Lightning Helix: Lightning Bolt + Healing Salve
Wear // Tear: Shatter + Demystify
And Boros Charm is also just a bunch of modes slapped together.

Would it have killed them to make at least one utility commander instead of another two shitty, boring beatsticks?

[rufus]

Mizzix's Mastery seems easily strong enough to play in legacy, though I think it's going to primarily be paying 4 for individual payoff spells like Dragonstorm and Enter the Infinite or (more sensibly) stuff like Dark Petition, Ill-Gotten Gains, Gifts Ungiven and Intuition than about playing the entire graveyard for the overload cost.

Magus of the Wheel is intriguing, but you can already get Wheel of Fortune for 5 mana. Does anyone have an old Magus of the Jar list handy?

[Davran]

Wizards can't print interesting R/W cards even if their life depended on it. Most of the playable red cards are two other cards mashed together or token producers:

Goblin Legionnaire (before the combat rule nerf): Shock + a nerfed Healing Salve
Lightning Helix: Lightning Bolt + Healing Salve
Wear // Tear: Shatter + Demystify
And Boros Charm is also just a bunch of modes slapped together.

Would it have killed them to make at least one utility commander instead of another two shitty, boring beatsticks?

I agree completely. Basandra, Battle Seraph is the most interesting potential R/W commander by a long shot...but she's just so meh in a format that's largely without combat tricks. I really wish they'd explore that design space a little further...maybe make Powerstone Minefield the creature or stick something like Comeuppance on a body and give it flash or something. Instead we get yet another "uh, attack the opponent I guess?" commander with a similar body and some sort of damage-based effect. Boring.

We haven't seen the 2nd U/R commander yet...but the first one being yet another "spells matter" thing is also more than a little disappointing.

[rufus]

The alternative is

"Exile target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard."

No idea why they chose this templat. Sounds alot worse and the wording above should work with Overload just fine.

I think the reason is that they want to be clear that the overload hits all cards that are instants or sorceries, rather than either all instants or all sorceries.

[TsumiBand]

I think the reason is that they want to be clear that the overload hits all cards that are instants or sorceries, rather than either all instants or all sorceries.

I don't think that's it; they do this all the time and have done for years, and they almost never use the "target ____ if it's an ______" wording.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=368517&type=card

I wonder if this verbiage opens it up to, like, Misdirection or something if it's cast in not-Overload mode? They target a Meditate in their graveyard, you Divert it to the Ghost Town in their graveyard, it doesn't do anything. Like the old Pyroblast trick.

[Finn]

@ strange targeting wording:
I feel certain that it is worded that way for some arcane ruling reason.
I feel sick that it is worded that way for some arcane ruling reason.

@Anya Merciless Angel:
Honestly, a 7/7 flying, indestructible for 5 is some serious business. In a commander deck that wants to bring all life totals down with stuff like Mogis, God of Slaughter, Purphoros, God of the Forge or even the new Fiery Confluence, which is entirely possible but not worth the effort up until now, this chick is pretty much the coup de gras you are looking for. Like I recently said, aggro in Commander is annoyingly worthless at the moment. Give that shit an enema. Go!

@Magus of the Wheel:
So, that card is incredibly powerful. It is outstandingly powerful. Are we sure this is correctly spoiled? A 3/3 for 3 in red with this ability? Are you kidding me?

[Gheizen64]

The wording is shitty because it has to work with overload.

Card is amazing, i could see it being playable even in some fair decks because of the free spell+ double prowess angle. Ancestral vision for example.

The magus isn't that good imho. Yeah it's a 3/3 for 2R, but that in itself is shitty. You need 3RR to weel over two turns, which isn't that good. Overall, the card could be legacy playable in dragon stompy/stax/chalice decks , but even then, those decks are still T2-T3.

The angel in aggro decks is a 7/7 indestructible flying for 3WR. Still not good enough when you consider Baneslayer exist and has more relevant abilities, is more reliable etc...

[rufus]

Great Oak Guardian has the right profile for elves. Does it make any sense to play him over Craterhoof for the lower cc, and bulk untap untility?


...
The magus isn't that good imho. Yeah it's a 3/3 for 2R, but that in itself is shitty. You need 3RR to weel over two turns, which isn't that good. Overall, the card could be legacy playable in dragon stompy/stax/chalice decks , but even then, those decks are still T2-T3.


Looking at the card, I wonder how they translate that flavor text to German. (In German, that AE ligature is a separate letter: Ä)

It matches up reasonably well with Big Red, but is probably not worth the slot in that deck either.

[H]

Great Oak Guardian has the right profile for elves. Does it make any sense to play him over Craterhoof for the lower cc, and bulk untap untility?

The only "advantage" would be that you can use it defensively, but that is really pretty bad, considering if you had a bunch of creatures and it in your hand, if it was Cratterhoof you'd have just won really.




Looking at the card, I wonder how they translate that flavor text to German. (In German, that AE ligature is a separate letter: Ä)

It matches up reasonably well with Big Red, but is probably not worth the slot in that deck either.

The flavor text is not real, someone just was being cute on the mock-up.

[maharis]

I think Mastery is a good card. Worth noting it triggers YP/Mentor twice.

I really hope the new Magus is part of a cycle but I do think there's a precedent for them to do one-off nods (isn't there a volver or something in one of the CMDR decks?) Magus of the Channel would be so sick.

This is... not nothing.

http://i.imgur.com/Ne20MiC.jpg

You could get a nice engine going with this card, but it will take some work to compete with the cantrip engine. Still, possibilities.

[Barook]

http://i.imgur.com/TwhqYdZ.png

Seems like a decent grindy midrange creature. GSZ-able, Bolt-proof, AD-immune, gives you creatures back even without enough experience. Might be a natural fit for Nic Fit as a GSZ target due to inherent synergy with the deck?

This just reinforces what I already said before that Wizards loves BG while RW sucks.

http://i.imgur.com/kTjvd46.png
Probably too many hoops to jump through to be worthwile, but who knows.

[Vicar in a tutu]

http://i.imgur.com/TwhqYdZ.png

Seems like a decent grindy midrange creature. GSZ-able, Bolt-proof, AD-immune, gives you creatures back even without enough experience. Might be a natural fit for Nic Fit as a GSZ target due to inherent synergy with the deck?

This just reinforces what I already said before that Wizards loves BG while RW sucks.

http://i.imgur.com/kTjvd46.png
Probably too many hoops to jump through to be worthwile, but who knows.
Is the zombie-Dragon good in zombardment?

[maharis]

I am pretty sure that once you pay the BB and sac the creatures, the Zombie Dragon can't be hit by DRS/Scooze/other GY hate, right? Since it goes from the GY zone to the stack zone as soon as the cost is paid?

[rufus]

....
[ Dragon Zombie Thing ]
Probably too many hoops to jump through to be worthwile, but who knows.

That alternative cost is quite achievable with cards like Fatestitcher,Gravecrawler and Bloodghast. The issue is that unless you can keep recurring the body, a 'vanilla' 6/6 zombie probably isn't worth the effort when you could just hardcast 'goyf for less.

[rufus]

... Since it goes from the GY zone to the stack zone as soon as the cost is paid?

Technically, it goes to the stack *before* the cost is paid. It occurs to me that as a "cast" and not a "return" the possibility of Vengevine synergies is there.

[Barook]

I am pretty sure that once you pay the BB and sac the creatures, the Zombie Dragon can't be hit by DRS/Scooze/other GY hate, right? Since it goes from the GY zone to the stack zone as soon as the cost is paid?
Pretty sure that's how it works as long as you hold priority. So you can dump it into your GY with Faithless Looting/Entomb/Liliana/whatever, then holding priority and announce to cast it. There's no window for the opponent to respond with hate if you do it that way.

Quick question about Centaur Warrior: If you dredge it and a land into the GY at the same time, I assume you can't pay the recovery cost yet with said land, or am I mistaken?

Edit: Meren seems pretty cool with Evoke creatures. Cast them for their cheap evoke cost, get effect + XP counter, return it to hand eot, rinse and repeat next turn.

[rufus]

...
Quick question about Centaur Warrior: If you dredge it and a land into the GY at the same time, I assume you can't pay the recovery cost yet with said land, or am I mistaken?

You can't normally use land in your graveyard to get mana. The ability should trigger off a simultaneously dredged land though, and you can feed the dredged land to a DRS to pay it the cost.

Perhaps you meant fetch lands, where you wouldn't be able to use mana from the fetched land.

[Barook]

You can't normally use land in your graveyard to get mana. The ability should trigger off a simultaneously dredged land though, and you can feed the dredged land to a DRS to pay it the cost.

Perhaps you meant fetch lands, where you wouldn't be able to use mana from the fetched land.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/754/200/283/635821892420946158.png

I'm talking about the :g::g: --> Centaur goes to hand ability and whether it triggers by a land that is dredged into the yard at the same as itself.

[rufus]

I have no idea what you're talking about...

I guess I misunderstood:


Quick question about Centaur Warrior: If you dredge it and a land into the GY at the same time, I assume you can't pay the recovery cost yet with said land, or am I mistaken?

[frafen]

http://i.imgur.com/TwhqYdZ.png

Whoa, this card is really good. :eek:

[Lemnear]

http://i.imgur.com/kTjvd46.png
Probably too many hoops to jump through to be worthwile, but who knows.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ODY/en/nonfoil/ZombieInfestation.jpg

Edit: or Dredge?

[Octopusman]

I think Balance and Eureka/Hypergenesis are spot on. The blue/black would have to be something that effects all players for it to really be fitting for a multiplayer cycle. Living Death is the obvious black one, but by that point we're just duplicating the Time Spiral suspend cycle. I can't think of anything else right now that fits though.

Seems this is exactly what it is with the magus costing what the original card cost and the activation being the suspend version cost plus tap.

I don't think it has to be a multiplayer spell.

Looking like:

U [edit: better buy these up too?]
Magus of the Recall
U,tap sac: Ancestral
1/1

2GG
Magus of the Eureka
1GG,tap sac: Eureka
2/4

3BB
Magus of the Death
2BB,tap sac: Living Death
2/2

1W <--- buy these up while they're cheap
Magus of the Balance
W,tap sac: Balance
1/2

[Barook]

U
Magus of the Recall
U,tap sac: Ancestral
1/1
Yep, totally not broken.

If there is a cycle, it's probably going to be cards that affect all players for political shenanigans.

Balance and Eureka fit the bill.

Black could have Pox effect, but since many players consider LD to be worse than Hitler in EDH, Living Death seems more likely.

Which leaves us with blue. Timetwister would be too close to Wheel. Same goes for Windfall. Magus of the Prosperity maybe? Upheaval has the same LD issues as Pox and I can't think of any other iconic blue mass spell right now.

[potatodavid]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ODY/en/nonfoil/ZombieInfestation.jpg

Edit: or Dredge?

If i'm sacking 2 creatures, i'm getting something better than this with dredge. Not bad but, not sure this is a LED dredge card.

[iatee]

Balance is on the edh banlist and I don't think there is a lot of demand for cheap versions of that effect to enter the casual multiplayer format...

[L10]

If i'm sacking 2 creatures, i'm getting something better than this with dredge. Not bad but, not sure this is a LED dredge card.

Zombie Dragon gets around Containment Priest and Moat, which is cool. It's also black to be fed to Ichorid.

[TsumiBand]

The wording is shitty because it has to work with overload.

Not to be totally pedantic but that doesn't even make sense -- you can easily switch "target" with "each" without needing that terribly weird wording. The bulk of the Overload spells only target creatures, so they have extra words to make them not suck (target creature you control gets +N/+N, or target creature you don't control gets -X/-X, so that the "each" isn't totally undesirable)

Recoup with Overload works just fine, and it targets sorceries in the yard --

"Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until EOT...."

"Each sorcery card in the graveyard gains flashback...."

There has to be some other goofy reason. I'm hoping it's not just an oversight, but that there's some weird trick that I'm not aware of, or something. But it's probably just a goof.

[GenghisTom]

Not to be totally pedantic but that doesn't even make sense -- you can easily switch "target" with "each" without needing that terribly weird wording. The bulk of the Overload spells only target creatures, so they have extra words to make them not suck (target creature you control gets +N/+N, or target creature you don't control gets -X/-X, so that the "each" isn't totally undesirable)

Recoup with Overload works just fine, and it targets sorceries in the yard --

"Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until EOT...."

"Each sorcery card in the graveyard gains flashback...."

There has to be some other goofy reason. I'm hoping it's not just an oversight, but that there's some weird trick that I'm not aware of, or something. But it's probably just a goof.

rufus already pointed out that the reason behind the wording is so that the Overload affects all instants AND sorceries, rather than all instants OR all sorceries.
The current wording: "Exile target card that's an instant or sorcery from your graveyard."

The wording we're used to seeing: "Exile target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard."

Using the wording we're used to, overload would make it look like this:
"Exile each instant or sorcery card from your graveyard." -> which sounds like you have to choose to either exile just instants or just sorceries.

Hence the current wording which overload would make:
"Exile each card that's an instant or sorcery from your graveyard."
This way, there's no question that overload hits both instants and sorceries.

Can we move on yet?

[rufus]

...
Can we move on yet?

Instant speed sweeper evading mass polymorph incoming. Unlikely to be legacy material, even if it combos with token makers.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Balance is on the edh banlist and I don't think there is a lot of demand for cheap versions of that effect to enter the casual multiplayer format...
And a Magus of the Living Dead would need some other style of formatting... Otherwise you'd sac the creature and end up getting it back.

[Octopusman]

And a Magus of the Living Dead would need some other style of formatting... Otherwise you'd sac the creature and end up getting it back.

I think Magus of the Living Dead is fine getting him back over and over with small body and the HUGE costs associated with playing and activating him.
Guess we'll have to wait.

[Barook]

And a Magus of the Living Dead would need some other style of formatting... Otherwise you'd sac the creature and end up getting it back.
Just use an activation cost without sacrificing? He would get sacrificed once the effect resolves anyway.

[jrsthethird]

Wizards can't print interesting R/W cards even if their life depended on it. Most of the playable red cards are two other cards mashed together or token producers:

Goblin Legionnaire (before the combat rule nerf): Shock + a nerfed Healing Salve
Lightning Helix: Lightning Bolt + Healing Salve
Wear // Tear: Shatter + Demystify
And Boros Charm is also just a bunch of modes slapped together.

Would it have killed them to make at least one utility commander instead of another two shitty, boring beatsticks?

They have so little non-combat overlap. I want a commander that plays in the same space as Moonhold, but I'm afraid that would be too "unfun" to print.

[Barook]

They have so little non-combat overlap. I want a commander that plays in the same space as Moonhold, but I'm afraid that would be too "unfun" to print.
Red has its fair share of hate cards as well. R/W could be the marquee color of unique hosers, especially hatebears with combat stats (think Thalia - e.g. first strike is a shared property between both colors). Thus you could add utility to the color combination that isn't fucking Lightning Helix slapped on everything while keeping a certain combat focus. Imho that would be good design - not the uninspired PoS Wizards keeps delivering while BG gets amazing cards all the time.

[Cire]

Oh man I love Meren. . . .

1st turn - Land + mana dork
2nd turn - Land + 1 mana creature than can sac + mana dork
3rd turn - Land + Meren/GSZ-->Meren - sac that creature - gain exp counter - get that creature back end of turn.

What should that sac creature be?

Children of Korlis/Kami of False Hope/Spore Frog for a soft lock,

Then turn 4, play evoke creatures?

I guess Rock control?

[apple713]

Oh man I love Meren. . . .

1st turn - Land + mana dork
2nd turn - Land + 1 mana creature than can sac + mana dork
3rd turn - Land + Meren/GSZ-->Meren - sac that creature - gain exp counter - get that creature back end of turn.

What should that sac creature be?

Children of Korlis/Kami of False Hope/Spore Frog for a soft lock,

Then turn 4, play evoke creatures?

I guess Rock control?

lol, that sounds so much easier than land, land, land show and tell fatty....

[Barook]

Oh man I love Meren. . . .

1st turn - Land + mana dork
2nd turn - Land + 1 mana creature than can sac + mana dork
3rd turn - Land + Meren/GSZ-->Meren - sac that creature - gain exp counter - get that creature back end of turn.

What should that sac creature be?

Children of Korlis/Kami of False Hope/Spore Frog for a soft lock,

Then turn 4, play evoke creatures?

I guess Rock control?
Return of the Spore Frog lock sounds interesting since both parts are GSZ-able.

Edit: As for self-sac creatures, there's also Sakura-Tribe Elder.


lol, that sounds so much easier than land, land, land show and tell fatty....
In theory, one could play Fleshbag Marauder to deal with that problem.

[tescrin]

Return of the Spore Frog lock sounds interesting since both parts are GSZ-able.
In theory, one could play Fleshbag Marauder to deal with that problem.

It's not half bad. I ran some pure jank a super long time ago against 12-Post. I was in WB using Marauder next to Sun Titan and some Ramp pieces and I managed to get there due to:

S&T-> Ulamog vs. Fleshbag
S&T-> Ulamog vs. Sun-Titan->grabs Fleshbag
Hardcast Ulamog -> destroyed something that was a problem (Liliana?) Sun Titan attacks; Fleshbag eats Ulamog a 3rd time

Now, that was some Janky fun; but Maren is a playable version of that problem for fair decks, S&T, and Reanimator alike with some extreme Liliana synergy. IMO, Fleshbag is already playable if you have tokens or something; it's just that Liliana and the like are better; and that we're talking about T2.5 decks already.

I think in general she's a tough-to-kill Bob that could become the end-game of choice of some form of Junk deck, but more likely; we'll see it in Shardless at some point; getting free Agents/Strixes back similar to Tasigur; but without having to keep paying the cost.

That all said; I tend to look for things that don't encourage you to eat Terminus hard now-a-days.

[joven]

http://i.imgur.com/TwhqYdZ.png

I don't quite get why WotC connected the legendary Deathrite Shaman flavorably with Jund!?? It should be Golgari.

[MrGlantz]

@Magus of the Wheel:
So, that card is incredibly powerful. It is outstandingly powerful. Are we sure this is correctly spoiled? A 3/3 for 3 in red with this ability? Are you kidding me?

It's almost certainly a 3/3 to avoid Imperial Recruiter.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It's almost certainly a 3/3 to avoid Imperial Recruiter.

Meh! If you play recruiter, him, activate, thats 5RRR.

[Barook]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/147/219/635822757618180149.png

What a shame it isn't legal in Modern because it would be a great beater in Soul Sisters.

[jrsthethird]

http://i.imgur.com/TwhqYdZ.png

I don't quite get why WotC connected the legendary Deathrite Shaman flavorably with Jund!?? It should be Golgari.

DRS is a 1-mana planeswalker, she can go where she pleases.

[Darkenslight]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/147/219/635822757618180149.png

What a shame it isn't legal in Modern because it would be a great beater in Soul Sisters.

I can see building Soul Sisters in Legacy with Karlov of the Ghost Council, especially as he plays well with Council's Judgement.

[H]

I can see building Soul Sisters in Legacy with Karlov of the Ghost Council, especially as he plays well with Council's Judgement.

Soul Warden/Soul's Attendant turn 1, Karlov turn 2 is a 4/4. Problem in Legacy is that the deck would probably be terrible versus Miracles.

[iamajellydonut]

Problem in Legacy is that the deck would probably be terrible versus Miracles.

And basically everything else. Can you imagine the palpable relief of every deck when they see Karlov on turn two instead of seeing Stoneforge Mystic or Dark Confidant or Counterbalance or Sylvan Library? "Well, I was planning on dedicating the entirety of my next turn or pitching with Force of Will in order to deal with their threat, but it's just a Karlov."

Unless your pure plan was to establish a clock, there's no way any deck actually gives a shit about Soul Sisters or Karlov.

[H]

And basically everything else. Can you imagine the palpable relief of every deck when they see Karlov on turn two instead of seeing Stoneforge Mystic or Dark Confidant or Counterbalance or Sylvan Library?

Unless your pure plan was to establish a clock, there's no way any deck actually gives a shit about Soul Sisters or Karlov.

Yeah, he's neat, interesting, and would probably be decent in Modern, but yeah, there are plenty of better options at 2 CMC in Legacy.

[Barook]

Soul Warden/Soul's Attendant turn 1, Karlov turn 2 is a 4/4. Problem in Legacy is that the deck would probably be terrible versus Miracles.
That, and tons of -1/-1 effects. Or fast combo.

He would be pretty cool in Modern, but in the formats he's in, he can't compete because the required shell sucks.

[rufus]

....
Unless your pure plan was to establish a clock, there's no way any deck actually gives a shit about Soul Sisters or Karlov.

What are you talking about?! This is the card that Tallowisp needed to get to tier 1. </sarcasm>

[maharis]

Daxos' Torment
Rare
3B
Enchantment
Constellation - Whenever ~ or another enchantment enters the battlefield under your control, ~ becomes an 5/5 demon with flying and haste until end of turn in addition to it's other types.
“The horrors of the underworld follow those, that return to the realm of the mortals.”

I guess throw this on the pile of potential cards for Demon Stompy.

Tech with Riptide Chimera.

Any chance the dark Enchantress decks could use this as a quick closer?

[Cire]

That all said; I tend to look for things that don't encourage you to eat Terminus hard now-a-days.

Yeah - terminus makes a lot of ideas worthless.

How about instead of Rock colors, you go BUG, then run Cursecatcher, Judge's Familiar and endlessly tax an opponents instants and sorceries. (I know. . . bad idea, but fun :tongue:)

As a serious thought, what about including it as a 2 of alongside sporefrog and fleshbag (4 cards) in a Nic Fit list? Gives you a CA engine and possible soft-lock.

[Tylert]

If you thought you could avoid playing blue in EDH... just check the blue confluence:

3UU instant
- Mana leak
- Creature bounce
- Draw one.

Man... blue gets everything :)

[Davran]

If you thought you could avoid playing blue in EDH... just check the blue confluence:

3UU instant
- Mana leak
- Creature bounce
- Draw one.

Man... blue gets everything :)

Yeah really. The red one is good...but not cryptic command good.

[Piceli89]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

Dumb question but I have to:
Can I put this on stack, without passing priority crack LED to discard Enter the Infinite, and target Enter the Infinite with it?

If so, we may have a(nother) new Legacy UR combo deck. Rejoy players of fair decks!

[Lightless]

Dumb question but I have to:
Can I put this on stack, without passing priority crack LED to discard Enter the Infinite, and target Enter the Infinite with it?


Works ith overload but not without cause u got to announce the target when u cast the spell.

[PirateKing]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/80/749/200/283/635821861343102406.png

Dumb question but I have to:
Can I put this on stack, without passing priority crack LED to discard Enter the Infinite, and target Enter the Infinite with it?

If so, we may have a(nother) new Legacy UR combo deck. Rejoy players of fair decks!

I don't think you'd be able to cast the :3::r: version without a target first, it's worded oddly but no different than any other target spell. The kicked version is another animal, I think I'm correct in that the spell no longer targets, so then yes your scenario would work. The only way it might not work as you position is if it only counts the spells in your graveyard on resolution, like Past in Flames .

[Piceli89]

Well, that is unfortunate. Thanks for your reply.

[(nameless one)]

The thing is would Blue Confluence see play in Legacy/Vintage? What decks would play it?

[mrjumbo03]

Well you could try to get the Enter the Infinite in the yard with a bunch of looting like Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Izzet Charm/Dack Fayden. Maybe run Intuition as well.

[Whitefaces]

You can still just Faithless Looting Enter into the bin and cast this normally, off Rite of Flames probably. Following Enter, Lotus Petals > Rite of Flames > LEDs > discard your deck making 12+ mana and flashback a past in flames then overload mastery (I guess choose whatever kill you want, grapeshot probably)

[rufus]

Well, that is unfortunate. Thanks for your reply.

Is there a particular reason that you want to use LED and play games with the stack? Are you worried that you won't have mana after casting Enter the Infinite or trying to avoid some particular sorcery-speed graveyard hate? You can entomb the payoff spell into the graveyard.

If you're going for a big payoff spell, you can just play reanimator though.

[ReAnimator]

I'm pretty skeptical of a Mizzix's Mastery and enter the infinite as a combo deck. sins of the past has been around for a long time, sure it cost's 6 instead of 4 but it is already in a colour with the 2 of the best rituals, protection in discard and entomb.

Maybe that 2 mana does make all the difference. But compared to Ad Naus and Grisel not sure if this would ever get it done given the hoops you have to jump through. Would be cool though, something satisfying about drawing your whole deck as opposed to just a large chunk of it.

[Cire]

2 mana usually makes a huge difference.

[tescrin]

I think the Orzhov dude looks interesting. Combines well with DRS, opponent's Plows, Jitte (you get 2 modes for the price of 1 counter!), BSK, etc..

Still, if it requires conditional other cards to "combo" into "Goyf" and you're in green, you could just run Goyf. I'll give him props for a CA ability on him though.

[GundamGuy]

I'm pretty skeptical of a Mizzix's Mastery and enter the infinite as a combo deck. sins of the past has been around for a long time, sure it cost's 6 instead of 4 but it is already in a colour with the 2 of the best rituals, protection in discard and entomb.

Maybe that 2 mana does make all the difference. But compared to Ad Naus and Grisel not sure if this would ever get it done given the hoops you have to jump through. Would be cool though, something satisfying about drawing your whole deck as opposed to just a large chunk of it.



I am also skeptial of Mizzix's Mastery and Enter the Infinite, but I think that's heading down the wrong path anyway. IMO Mizzix's Mastery has enough going for it that it'll find it's way into some storm deck, I don't think you need a two card combo to make Mizzix's Mastery solid.

[Gheizen64]

The blue modal spell is insane. Draw 3 at 3UU instant is already fair priced, counter a spell and draw 2 at 3UU ? Occasionally bounce and draw 2? What the fuck happened to dismiss and why is the blue one so much better than the other ones ahgdskhanshpionapsihash

At least it's probably not playable in legacy because it's straight 5 mana, but jesus if it ain't over the curve compared to the other spells.

[Cire]

Rough Deck List for a Mizzix's Mastery combo deck.

Ideal turn structure:

1st - Land + Faithless/Careful Study/Brainstorm
2nd - Land + Mox (plus Discard/Imprinted Card)/Petal +Dack Faydan/(another Faithless/Careful Study/Brainstorm)
3rd - 2 mana Land + (if need be another Faithless/Careful Study) + Mizzix's + Daze/FoW --> EtI flashback --> Conflagrate kill.

4 Dack Faydan

4 Mizzix's Mastery
4 Enter the Infinite
4 Faithless
4 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
1 Conflagrate

14 Lands
5 2-Mana Lands

Slow compared to some combo decks, but it is basically all draw, with 8 protection spells.

[Zombie]

The blue modal spell is insane. Draw 3 at 3UU instant is already fair priced, counter a spell and draw 2 at 3UU ? Occasionally bounce and draw 2? What the fuck happened to dismiss and why is the blue one so much better than the other ones ahgdskhanshpionapsihash

At least it's probably not playable in legacy because it's straight 5 mana, but jesus if it ain't over the curve compared to the other spells.

Yeah I looked at it and dear god, that card is PUSHED


why is the blue one so much better than the other ones ahgdskhanshpionapsihash

You answered your question yourself.

...

Okay, I got to reading them. White one is OK, maybe? WTF does the green one cost 6 while the blue one is 5 mana and an instant? Six mana ramp, now we're talking guys.

...

HHAHAHAHA The red one. HAHAHAHA.

SORCERY

XD

FUCK RED RIGHT



No, seriously, Wizards. You should just post an article on the Mothership declaring that color balance doesn't matter jackshit and you'll just print broken shit in blue for the lulz and people should stop playing red.

[Piceli89]

Is there a particular reason that you want to use LED and play games with the stack? Are you worried that you won't have mana after casting Enter the Infinite or trying to avoid some particular sorcery-speed graveyard hate? You can entomb the payoff spell into the graveyard.

If you're going for a big payoff spell, you can just play reanimator though.

I just wanted to know if the LED trick was feasible in case I had EtI in hand. It would have been much better.

I, as others, am wondering if that could give life to some kind UR combo deck featuring loot effects, Intuitions, red rituals and the usual cantrip cartel. Intuitioning for 3 EtI or a combination of EtI/Recoup/this new spell would allow you to consistently "reanimate" it by turn 3 or such. Drawing all your library means that you can easily draw your remaining Lotus Petals (or even Simian Spirit Guides in 2-color builds), cast LabManiac, double cantrip (Gitaxian Probe?), win.

Basically you have this UR template:

Manamorphose
SSG
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Lotus Petal
Faithless Looting
(Intuition)

And you can toy with it.

You may be right, though. Entombing EtI could be just better, at the expense of a weaker manabase.

Still, Deathrite Shaman is going to be a huge liability, so I don't know if this is feasible at all. But I alsways love to brew new stuff.

I don't really see this spell fitting into regular Storm builds, on the contrary. Past in Flames would just be better, as with eight mana avaiable you are almost surely able to start YagWillíng your graveyard and doing so by paying eight mana all at once is going to make you very weak to soft counters. Plus, the multiple reds required for overloading may not suit the black rituals. I feel that, if it ever was to be played, this card would require an entirely different/new shell.


EDIT: As Cire pointed out, this is also playable in a control-combo shell, in case. Good find with Conflagrate too, which would make SSGs quite mandatory. My concern is that Reanimator at that point would be straight better, requiring cc1 and cc2 spells to get the job done instead of a heavier cc4. But also my suggested build is, in all likelihood, going to be a worse ANT, so... :tongue:

[ReAnimator]

I am also skeptial of Mizzix's Mastery and Enter the Infinite, but I think that's heading down the wrong path anyway. IMO Mizzix's Mastery has enough going for it that it'll find it's way into some storm deck, I don't think you need a two card combo to make Mizzix's Mastery solid.

Agreed, you just have to figure out what to do with it. If you aren't cheating the mana of something, then it really isn't better than other options. Lots of potential for sure.

[Cire]

I
EDIT: As Cire pointed out, this is also playable in a control-combo shell, in case. Good find with Conflagrate too, which would make SSGs quite mandatory. My concern is that Reanimator at that point would be straight better, requiring cc1 and cc2 spells to get the job done instead of a heavier cc4. But also my suggested build is, in all likelihood, going to be a worse ANT, so... :tongue:

Re-animator is still probably better, but I do not think you need SSG's. They were only useful for instant speed kills, and Mizzix is already sorcery speed. You can just cast moxes and petals, to loot conflagrate into your grave and flash it back.

[rufus]

I just wanted to know if the LED trick was feasible in case I had EtI in hand. It would have been much better.

I, as others, am wondering if that could give life to some kind UR combo deck featuring loot effects, Intuitions, red rituals and the usual cantrip cartel. Intuitioning for 3 EtI or a combination of EtI/Recoup/this new spell would allow you to consistently "reanimate" it by turn 3 or such. Drawing all your library means that you can easily draw your remaining Lotus Petals (or even Simian Spirit Guides in 2-color builds), cast LabManiac, double cantrip (Gitaxian Probe?), win.



I briefly thought about the same thing with Sins of the Past and Spelltwine, but if you're using a dedicated payoff spell like EtI or Dragonstorm, it's very likely to just be a worse version of reanimator. Reanimating Griselbrand is going to give you basically the same payoff (a win) with similar liabilities and happens for 2 mana less.

I do think that the card is strong, but that it wants to be run in combination with other cards that can do stuff when they're not being cheated onto the stack rather than dedicated reanimation targets.

[Davran]

HHAHAHAHA The red one. HAHAHAHA.

SORCERY

XD

FUCK RED RIGHT



No, seriously, Wizards. You should just post an article on the Mothership declaring that color balance doesn't matter jackshit and you'll just print broken shit in blue for the lulz and people should stop playing red.

The sad thing is I'm still probably windmill slamming it into my EDH deck. It's that much better than all of the other shit options. Seriously though, would it have killed them to make it an instant?

[iamajellydonut]

The white one is still easily the worst. "Exile target enchantment" is the funniest god damn line of text when you consider that you're expected to potentially want to simultaneously choose that option three times. And fucking lifegain... Every time. I just love the white Confluence.

Fortunately, black still has yet to be spoiled. So we at least have a few more days to hang onto the delicious feel of "hope" before we get our dreams shattered.

[apple713]

I'm pretty skeptical of a Mizzix's Mastery and enter the infinite as a combo deck. sins of the past has been around for a long time, sure it cost's 6 instead of 4 but it is already in a colour with the 2 of the best rituals, protection in discard and entomb.

Maybe that 2 mana does make all the difference. But compared to Ad Naus and Grisel not sure if this would ever get it done given the hoops you have to jump through. Would be cool though, something satisfying about drawing your whole deck as opposed to just a large chunk of it.

2 mana makes a huge difference. Especially in legacy. In fact just 1 mana makes a rather large difference and can often determine whether a card is playable or not, at least in legacy. Drawing your deck is nice but what do you do with it? You'd have to pitch a bunch of spells or have some sort of omniscience effect to make use of it.

It seems pretty easy to set up. Entomb + Mizzix but what after that?

[ReAnimator]

2 mana makes a huge difference. Especially in legacy. In fact just 1 mana makes a rather large difference and can often determine whether a card is playable or not, at least in legacy. Drawing your deck is nice but what do you do with it? You'd have to pitch a bunch of spells or have some sort of omniscience effect to make use of it.

It seems pretty easy to set up. Entomb + Mizzix but what after that?

Well that's essentially my point. I have a hard time imagining anything being better or cheaper than reanimating Griselbrand or ritualing into Ad Naus.

[Zombie]

The sad thing is I'm still probably windmill slamming it into my EDH deck. It's that much better than all of the other shit options. Seriously though, would it have killed them to make it an instant?

What really kills me about the red command is how the options really want to make you put all your eggs in one basket. The blue and even sorta the green command have this thing where any of the options is actually meaningful by itself. Red, you need to put points into a thing to see a return.

Like, make the Pyroclasm be an actual Pyroclasm and the card is instantly actually good because you get to do meaningful things?

[Barook]

I think the Orzhov dude looks interesting. Combines well with DRS, opponent's Plows, Jitte (you get 2 modes for the price of 1 counter!), BSK, etc..

Still, if it requires conditional other cards to "combo" into "Goyf" and you're in green, you could just run Goyf. I'll give him props for a CA ability on him though.
Even if it's CA, spending 2 mana and 6 power for a Plow-effect seems a bit questionable unless it's a "Just fuck my shit up"-creature like Emrakul.

He's also best buds with Scavenging Ooze.

[Cire]

Entomb + Mizzix

This is easy - Entomb Enter the infinite - search for 3 SSG/Lotus Petal/Mox - loot Conflagrate, flashback it, discard your hand win. Minimal "dead cards" in your library, and entire combo only costs 3RB. Problem is, as was mentioned, why not just entomb + animate Emrakul? In my view the only way to make it truly worth it is going the combo/control route. In my post above I have a UR deck that would win regularly turn 3, with 8 protection spells. That's pretty inefficient compared to most combo decks. Perhaps if you try to slow it down to win at turn 4 and include a whopping 16 protection/disruption suit, it might have a chance. Don't know yet how to build that or if it can be built.

[tescrin]

Even if it's CA, spending 2 mana and 6 power for a Plow-effect seems a bit questionable unless it's a "Just fuck my shit up"-creature like Emrakul.

He's also best buds with Scavenging Ooze.

SHELTERED VALLEY COMBO! Game over man! Game over!

More seriously, Scooze is quite interesting.

[Barook]

SHELTERED VALLEY COMBO! Game over man! Game over!

More seriously, Scooze is quite interesting.
Sunlet Drop would probably be better at giving you a constant stream of life and +1/+1 counters.

It's probably best paired up with green in Legacy - gives you DRS, Ooze and Courser (which can also generate a ton of life).

[ESG]

why is the blue one so much better than the other ones ahgdskhanshpionapsihash

I'm tempted to sig this.

[Davran]

What really kills me about the red command is how the options really want to make you put all your eggs in one basket. The blue and even sorta the green command have this thing where any of the options is actually meaningful by itself. Red, you need to put points into a thing to see a return.

Like, make the Pyroclasm be an actual Pyroclasm and the card is instantly actually good because you get to do meaningful things?

I suspect it's often going to be Pyroclasm + Fuck That Artifact In Particular, but having access to a mini-shatterstorm or the random last few points of damage to take someone out isn't a bad thing.

If I were designing it, I would have dropped the Player Burn mode and added Discard then Draw as one of the options, or bumped it up to 3RR and made it an instant.

[Cire]

Thief of Blood 4BB
Creature - Vampire
Flying
As Thief of Blood enters the battlefield, remove all counters from all permanents. Thief of Blood enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each counter removed this way.
1/1

Plus Dark Depths for a 20/20 flyer and a 11/11 flyer :laugh::tongue:

[Finn]

Because there's nothing better than killing your opponent twice. If only there were an easier way to get those counters off that pesky dark depths.

[Cire]

I hope you understood that it was a joke :rolleyes:, but to be clear - yes, Thespian's Stage and Vampire Hexmage are much much much much much much better and more efficient options :smile:

[Dice_Box]

Still think a nice rehearsed play is the best way to entertain our dark Mistress.

[Vicar in a tutu]

So, all of Commander 2015 has been revealed. Wretched Confluence costs 5 mana and is most likely useless in legacy (maybe useful in Nic Fit). The only two cards that look interesting for legacy, is Mizzix's Mastery, the G/B legend and - maybe - the zombie dragon.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I also believe Fiery Confluence will see occasional play (at least as much as Sudden Demise, so not a lot... but some).

It should have been an instant, but whatever. :rolleyes:
I'm excited to try it in Eight Moon Stompy against D&T. That matchup is always a nightmare.

[iamajellydonut]

Fortunately, black still has yet to be spoiled. So we at least have a few more days to hang onto the delicious feel of "hope" before we get our dreams shattered.

It's shit.

Edit: Whole set spoiled. Basically entirely shit from an Eternal perspective. I don't think there's a single fringe-playable Legacy card other than Mizzix's Mastery and Sandstone Oracle.

[Vicar in a tutu]

It's shit.

Edit: Whole set spoiled. Basically entirely shit from an Eternal perspective. I don't think there's a single fringe-playable Legacy card other than Mizzix's Mastery and Sandstone Oracle.
The B/G legend is powerful. I'm not sure it automatically slots into a tier 1-deck (Shardless BUG?) like True-Name did, but it might find a home in fringe-decks, especially one that plays Green Sun's Zenith. Maybe Nic Fit?

[Cire]

Three cards that may be potentially playable isn't bad out of a 56 card set.

[Finn]

I will remember you all said this when I rock all y'all's hineys with Magus of the Wheel.

[H]

It's shit.

Edit: Whole set spoiled. Basically entirely shit from an Eternal perspective. I don't think there's a single fringe-playable Legacy card other than Mizzix's Mastery and Sandstone Oracle.

Well, the Black one is still better than the White one though (not saying much though).

Really these are all EDH cards, which, I mean, this is a set made for that though, so, I can't really be all that upset...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Really these are all EDH cards, which, I mean, this is a set made for that though, so, I can't really be all that upset...
Quoted for truth.

Wizards also admitted a mistake and has shown they learned from it:

Looking back at it, True-Name Nemesis was a mistake, and not just because it is so annoying to play against in Legacy. The first reason is that the card just isn't that good in multiplayer. If it was "gains protection from every opponent except one," then it would be a more appropriate card for a product like this that is aimed at Commander players and not meant as a hard plant for Legacy. At the same time, we never really tested True-Name Nemesis in a format where it was very good—so we underestimated not only how strong it was (we knew it would be powerful), but how unfun it was. Whenever someone cast the card, they did it in a very different scenario than it would see in most of its realistic real-world play.
If the choice was between 'no Legacy playables' and 'another TNN mistake', which would you choose?