Brave Sir Robin (Bant Knight Retreat)

[anwei]

I just did a deck tech with Bant Knight+Retreat combo at SCG STL, (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/reliquary_retreat_with_steven_.html) and was in a couple feature matches, losing to Shardless BUG, (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/22210176?t=4h54m54s) beating reanimator (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/22392016?t=2h16m31s), and losing in T4 to storm. (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/v/22392016?t=6h57m37s) (None of the matches are particularly interesting, and none were combos.)
I ended up 6-3 Day 1, 6-0 Day 2, and lost in Top 4 to Storm.

The List I ran
Lands (22)
3 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

Guys (14)
3 Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 KotR
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Sigarda
2 JTMS

Spells (24)
4 GSZ
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze


Sideboard (15)
2 Envelop
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Krossan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Submerge
1 Path to Exile
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Council’s Judgment

Playing
Some of this is obvious, but a few tips:

The basic combo uses Knight to get a land that untaps Knight, and you repeat until you have a big Knight, netting mana along the way (or tapping guys). End the cycle with Wolf Run, and trample in.
More specifically: Hierarch+Knight+Retreat on Turn 3, you Knight a land for a fetch (untap Knight), fetch something up (untap Hierarch or tap their guy), then tap Hierarch and the land for mana. This nets 2 cards in the yard and 2 mana and resets. You do this like 5-6 times and you have a 12/12+ Knight and like 10 mana, and their team is tapped down. End by pulling out Kessig Wolf Run and giving Knight +8/0 and trample and swing lethal.
When comboing, try to leave a fetch uncracked and a target and Sejiri Steppe untouched in your deck. You can respond to instant-speed removal while Knight is tapped by fetching with this land (untapping Knight), then activating Knight on the last to go get Steppe and counter the spell (even Abrupt Decay). It's best to play (or have) this land first (before you cast Retreat), but that's obviously not always possible. Use Knight activations to start with 2 fetchlands, then combo off of one and leave the other aside, if necessary. The deck is new enough that people hold off on removal sometimes, and waiting 1 Knight activation means it's already too late. Similarly, if they go to remove the enchantment, you can crack the fetch to start over, in response, and finish comboing before their removal resolves. If you think they have instant-speed removal, you don't have a fetch out, and you're not under pressure, it may be best to pass the turn, since any fetch beats their removal, and you'll probably find one before they find a second thing. Obviously, there are risks.
Ask to shortcut when doing the activations (after getting your first fetch, as sneakily as possible), and order the lands in your hand so that you don't run out of forests/plains to fetch (especially with your leftover fetch). I stack these as: Fetch (backup for Steppe), Fetch (combo), Dual, Fetch, Dual, Fetch, Dual... Fetch, Taiga, Kessig Wolf Run, Dual, Steppe. The Dual/Steppe at the end of the pile sit in reserve, waiting until (if) they're needed. You should decide initially which lands you want to keep around, in case something goes wrong (i.e., don't get your combo ruined and be stuck with Dryad Arbor, Steppe, Wolf Run, and Forest in play). In some cases, you need to waste yourself to boost Knight.
Gauge whether you should combo in the attack step or your main phase. Sometimes you'll only have the necessary mana in your main phase. Examples: I had to fetch out wastelands for Maze of Ith before combat once, and had to generate enough mana to GSZ for Qasali Pridemage on Ensnaring Bridge a couple times. Sometimes you need to do it during the attack step, e.g., when flash creatures or Aether Vial mean that potential blockers could show up, and you want to tap them down. Do this by main-phase Knight out 2 fetches, then attack, then crack a fetch to untap Knight and start again). This can also be helpful for situations where they might wait to try to disrupt you mid combo and leave you stranded for future turns (e.g., Stifle on the very last Retreat), so you're already attacking and can't end up tapped accidentally. It's also a good safety net so you don't screw up and miss a trigger.
If you have to give Knight pro-blue to dodge blockers, either do it after attacking or make sure that Steppe is the last land you fetch out, and that you stack the Steppe trigger first, to let the untap ability resolve. If you screw up, she can't untap. I did this a few weeks ago. It was mortifying. I passed the turn with a 25/17 trample Knight, in turns, in game 3.
When you have the combo, there are some obvious ways you lose (like double removal or Ensnaring Bridge or fog or whatever). Some ways you lose fall under the heading of "things that normally happen in games." It's best for us if our graveyard is untouched, we have a mana dork, they don't have tons of blockers and/or protection blockers (TNN), they haven't gained much life, we haven't lost too much life, and they don't have removal. We can usually absorb 1 of those with no problem, and 2-3 of those (depending) if we're willing to waste ourselves out of lands as part of the combo. When any are true, you may need to plan carefully. Pay attention to the life you're able to pay for fetches and the number of "dead end" lands in your deck, which will inhibit how big Knight can grow or determine sequencing.


My brief thoughts/changes
I play Bant a lot, and really like Aggro-Combo-Control shells like NO Bant. I'd say ~40% of the wins are through the combo; slamming a fast Jace, exalted Clique, or normal Knight is more common. Here's the biggest problem with the deck, and why I still don't know if it's any good after T4'ing: In NO Bant, Knight (or Clique/Jace) beats are plan A and NO'ing a dork into a hydra is plan B (or vice-versa). In this deck, Knight (or Clique/Jace) beats are plan A and Knight is plan B. And Clique and Jace are fewer and less supported. Whether the combo is good enough or not, too much hangs on Knight.

As asked below, Decay in particular can be a problem - my 3 losses in the swiss were all to Abrupt Decay decks (though I was like 3-3 against them total). Crop Rotation counters it (and active Knight protects herself), and I'd probably go up to 2. I don't actually think Decay is that much more problematic than Swords, and Knight is pretty much already a must-kill card. With Zenith, you get a lot of them - Zenith recycling means, midway through a grindy game, you're drawing like you pack 10ish Knights in your deck. That's pretty good, and they show up a lot.

The options to address this are to protect Knight better or to have more threats, and I think the latter is better. I tried Sylvan Safekeeper a lot, and it was often disappointing. When I had the land to spare and hit GSZ, I often just wanted to grab another Knight. I think, if I play Legacy again anytime soon, I'd seriously consider moving FoW to the sideboard for a maindeck Crop Rotation (2nd in side), a 2nd Pridemage, a Scavenging Ooze or 3rd Clique, and Maze of Ith. Maybe I'd try Safekeeper again. A pair of Mother of Runes might be great, though lacking oodles of creatures is tough. For this version of the deck, I'd plan on swapping Cliques for True-Names, as they provide a very resilient Plan B and can be quite fast with exalted.

One of the more difficult decisions is whether to keep Kessig Wolf Run. Cutting it for a Wasteland (and Taiga for Tundra or a 9th Fetch) makes the mana much better, lets us go to 4th Hierarch, and the 3rd Waste is probably quite good, especially if cutting a Retreat. The problems are ensuring we can hit lethal and beating blockers. The blocker problem is mostly solved by Retreat, particularly if we don't need to make mana off fetching lands. The biggest widely-played issue is True-Name, and Steppe can allow one attack through them (which does cost our ability to avoid removal on the combo turn). Double Mother of Runes, to protect a blocker against Knight and Retreat, or Mirran Crusader with Sword of Fire/Ice, are much less likely.
Hitting lethal is a real issue. As above, comboing without KWR is best when our graveyard is untouched, they don't have tons of blockers and/or protected blockers (TNN), they haven't gained much life, we haven't lost too much life, and they don't have removal. If our graveyard hasn't been touched, a non-KWR deck can get Knight up to a 24/24 (non-exalted) by starting with 5 lands in play and putting everything in the yard, including wastelanding Karakas and Sejiri Steppe. If we want to keep the Steppe plan up (a good idea) and combo smartly from 5 lands, we can get Knight to a 22/22. StP on Goyf or a couple DRS activations (lands or life gain) are enough to stop this, and that's not great.

So, the "corner" cases where KWR is necessary - 4+ DRS land exiles, StP'ing a guy or getting hit with batterskull and not doing other damage that game, TNN+removal, a single GY hit like Relic or Crypt, etc. - come up often enough. It also doesn't put you all-in if you want to win and not just get to 12/12, swing, and pass the turn: if they have double removal or whatever, you didn't just waste yourself out of the game permanently. I think in my win-and-in at the Open, my Painter opponent slammed T2 RiP and I untapped and won, ramping into GSZ for Pridemage. By the time I cast it, I had 5+ lands in exile and only 3 in play: Knight would have maxed out at 17/17 without it. Obviously, we're a big favorite to win that, but painter+blast leaves us with 0 lands in play or the deck, which means actually stopping earlier and not going all in.

That all said, the cost of the red splash is real, you can still win most combo games without it, and most actual games are not fast combo games, but they run long enough that you get damage in along the way and both ways of building leave them with similar outs.

The Name
Several names have been floated around for the (Modern) deck, and I like "Brave Sir Robin" (bc it's a retreating knight, get it?) with honorable mention to "Helm's Deep." I've read that an SCG commentator finds this suggestion (and the conventions of nomenclature in Legacy) inhospitable to new players.

This gets discussed a lot. Obviously, as a side issue, SCG are singlehandedly responsible for the largest mass of Legacy name discrepancies in the past couple years. For good or bad, and eventual clarity or not, using Khans names means renaming 50%+ of the meta.
The one thing I would add is, deck names highlight internal unity and thematic coherence. "Bant" or even "Bant Tempo" lists colors and maybe a strategy. "New Horizons" references a very specific over-the-top tempo deck in a specific meta that knew what it wanted to be and why. "Esper Stoneblade" and "Jeskai Stoneblade" sound like they both run random piles of cards matching an arbitrary color identity, rather than being two interrelated but distinct strategies. Those are broad enough that each list probably shouldn't have it's own name.
This is a brew. "Reliquary Retreat" may become the publishing name of any any number of Modern and/or Legacy UGWrb/GWBu/GWBur decks that play Brainstorm/Force/GSZ or Collected Company/Geist/Chord or whatever else, and I don't think that's great. If there's anything Creative about building a deck, then dignifying the focus of that process with a name seems like a good thing. I doubt whether John Steinbeck could have published "Indebted Family Moves to California During the Depression and Struggles to Survive" with the same punch as "Grapes of Wrath." Building a deck is orders of magnitude less creative than writing a novel, but I hope deck names share more with novel names than with the labels on sorted recycling containers, which is what "Reliquary Retreat" feels like.

[KobeBryan]

with abrupt decay, you were actually able to make it work?

[Barook]

Deck tech is here (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/reliquary_retreat_with_steven_.html)

List looks really solid - can't go wrong with 16 shuffle effects and 7 cards that can directly manipulate the library (BS/Jace/Library) plus Retreat.

[Stevestamopz]

"It's not the name, but we're calling it Reliquary Retreat"

Ahhh scg, back to their old bullshit again.

[apple713]

cool concept but i think he's doing very well because of the surprise factor. If the deck catches on and gains popularity KOTR will simply be a kill on sight creature in bant colors.

The issue with the deck i think is that its seem like a very weak deck outside of the combo. The combo isn't really a dedicated combo deck and more of a midrange with a convenient combo win if you get retreat. Since its only a 4 of and there are no ways to search it you can't really rely on it i don't think.

other than that the deck seems fairly well constructed but some choices would invite me to ask more questions since it doesn't seem optimized.

[ironclad8690]

I think Bant has just been secretly well positioned for a while now, a guy at my local store has a very impressive record with it. The coralhelm route is just a new cool way to win out of nowhere, now you literally do win when you untap with knight.

[apple713]

I think Bant has just been secretly well positioned for a while now, a guy at my local store has a very impressive record with it. The coralhelm route is just a new cool way to win out of nowhere, now you literally do win when you untap with knight.



Yeah if you find the four of early which is not likely.

[wizard_of_gore]

@anwei

Congrats! Do you think inclusion of mother of runes would improve some matchups (against removals and most important abrupt decay)? And mother of runes can actually work on its own and its quite tricky with retreat to coralhelm!:confused:

[Darkenslight]

Out of curiosity, did you test Drift of Phantasms as a possible card for tutoring the combo pieces, or is it just too weak?

[dte]

Hello,

Sweet deck :)

Wouldn't you like a one-of sylvan safekeeper as a gsz target out of your SB?
It could be an easy way to deal with abrupt decay, or any removal (as well as an easy pump for KotR, but that's quite situational).

[tescrin]

Lol -> your face when he renames the deck for you.

IMO, I'd run Retreat as a 2-of and have it be a flashy accident. It's a bit weak on its own and it's a 3-drop; so maxing it seems bad (we rarely do that with 3-drops we like -> Lily, Snapcaster, TNN, etc..) And I definitely feel that way about KotR as well; as he isn't typically run as a 4-of in his build-around-me deck; Maverick.

I'm quite suprised you used Taiga + Wolfrun. Soaring Seacliff next to the already-there Steppe seems more than enough to get around midrange decks and mildly easier on your mana.

My plan for running something like this was to have a 1-2-of Loam or so to get the free midrange wins there, and maybe go the Stifle route (you're running daze..) to really hit the land base and keep the combo game up. Again; winning off of a random coralhelm into KotR is nifty; but the 4-ofs surprise me with such high costing cards.

[Jakobian]

Run mother of runes or sylvan safekeeper if abrupt decay is an issue. You're not casting retreat unless a knight is already down, right??

[Cartesian]

Maybe maindeck Meddling Mage might be a possibility, against Abrubt Decay?

Nice run and deckcheck. I also like these quotes:
"Yeah, so the deck's actual name is..." and "I play no Modern at all."

[Stevestamopz]

I also like these quotes:
"Yeah, so the deck's actual name is..." and "I play no Modern at all."

Best part of this weekend's coverage by far. And a top 8!! Congrats

[thefringthing]

It is absolutely imperative that everyone start referring to this deck solely as "Helm's Deep" starting immediately.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Congrats on the result!

My guess is that because Sejiri Steppe is really good against Abrupt Decay and the idea you are not as worried about the Knight dying unless its your combo turn. And on that turn, it protects itself.

My main question from seeing the deck, do you feel like you actually need the Kessig Wolf Run or were you able to just tap down their blockers without it? Second, what was the idea of one Bird before the fourth Hierarch?

[uncletiggy]

Id imagine the one birds is a zenithable red source.

[Fox]

Very neat Bant splinter twin-type deck; lose 3 drop flash, but don't need 4th mana on the next turn and generate hardcast force mana as you're comboing off. Interested in your experiences of columnar non-trampler, soft to yard hate versus horizontal tokens of splinter twin in your matchups.

[Jay_Gatz]

Very neat Bant splinter twin-type deck; lose 3 drop flash, but don't need 4th mana on the next turn and generate hardcast force mana as you're comboing off. Interested in your experiences of columnar non-trampler, soft to yard hate versus horizontal tokens of splinter twin in your matchups.

You can just use sejiri steppe to get through tokens

[Fox]

You can just use sejiri steppe to get through tokens
Ah, the question more precisely is: where this deck uses knight/retreat, what would the games have looked like if you were casting splinter twin on pestermite/exarch. What match-ups were more favorable with your approach, and what challenges did you face by losing the 3-drop's flash and opening yourself up to yard hate.

[Jay_Gatz]

You may lose flash but you get to play Knight, which is a real magic card, as opposed to exarch and twin which do nothing on their own.

[Barook]

Ah, the question more precisely is: where this deck uses knight/retreat, what would the games have looked like if you were casting splinter twin on pestermite/exarch. What match-ups were more favorable with your approach, and what challenges did you face by losing the 3-drop's flash and opening yourself up to yard hate.
Combo pieces being not dead by themselves plus tons of shuffle effects for Brainstorm/JMS/Library definitely seems stronger than a Twin approach.

[anwei]

Thanks y'all.

I posted a couple responses/comments by re-editing the main thread.

I don't know if the deck is good. The biggest problem is that Knight is Plan A and Knight is Plan B. I tested Sylvan Safekeeper as extensively as anything (it was literally the 61st card until a couple days ago), but almost always hated it, even against the BUG decks. I could see a Maverick-y-er version (with Mom) being good or even better, but that's not what I wanted to play.

In my testing, Wolf Run is necessary, and alternatives are bad. A normal combo turn generates 10+ mana with a dork, 5+ without, and not having KWR means opening yourself up to several DRS activations keeping you from a lethal attack, TNN, et. al blocking the way, and Batterskull life gain (or early StP) putting their life out of reach. Moreover, you need a balance of fetches (which are important for fixing and Retreat-without-Knight) and forests/plains to get. If you run out of the later, on combo turn, you have to end your combo by turning your real lands into Wasteland and Karakas and Wasting yourself to get Knight high enough. If something goes wrong, that's real bad. Moreover, Wolf Run is a solid Knight target in many matches for getting in an extra few points or avoiding pesky chump blockers (TNN/Pyromancer tokens/Elves).

Finding Retreat (as only a 4-off) was not really a problem, and I might try 3. If I have an active Knight, I'm usually doing something I'm okay with, and (especially post-board) can usually do something to combat what they're doing. apple713's comments that it isn't a comment deck are correct, but I don't think the deck is bad without the combo. It might be bad overall, but not seeing the combo doesn't do that alone.

I didn't test against infect. I'm all for tutor targets, but, I don't think it's probably that bad. I have like 8 removal (counting EE/Staticaster, not counting Pridemage/Grip/Needle/Judgment) post-board, 7 counters, and can win quickly. Maze is probably real good.

[HSCK]

Stoneforge probably takes up too much space for a plan B, but could two TNN work? Big congrats on the finish!

[anwei]

Stoneforge probably takes up too much space for a plan B, but could two TNN work? Big congrats on the finish!

3-drop clumping is already pretty rough, though, a secondary plan that dodges removal is nice. To wit, I considered taking a page from the Modern brewing and playing 2ish Geist, which synergizes well with Retreat (clearing blockers), Maze, Exalted, and Force, and provides a pretty reasonable clock compared to the alternatives.

I usually hate SFM in Bant decks, since it feels like the momentum of having 8-dorks is all but lost when using the.. slowest.. threat.. ever. TNN obviously changed that in big ways, since it stopped being a choice between accelerating into a good 3-mana thing (Knight) and a super-slow-but-good 2+2/3+2 mana thing (SFM+sword) and became a great 2+2/3+3+2 (SFM+TNN+sword) mana thing. Without TNN, SFM is still relevant (and equipment soups up mediocre threats like Pridemage), but it is really a lot of slots.

It's probably not Tarmogoyf, but, if the deck changed dramatically (i.e., played Ponder), it could be.

[.dk]

Just wanted to pop in here and say grats on T4, and sweet brew! Was catching some of your matches when I could! Looked super fun!

[lordofthepit]

Maybe maindeck Meddling Mage might be a possibility, against Abrubt Decay?

Nice run and deckcheck. I also like these quotes:
"Yeah, so the deck's actual name is..." and "I play no Modern at all."

Yes!

[monovfox]

Hello! Loving the deck. Absolutely sold on it, and want to play it at GP Tacoma. I have a few questions for you:


Why are you playing envelope? What matchups does it come in for?

What are you doing to combat combo decks? I mean, force of will is decent, but I feel like you're really lacking post-board.

What is your sideboard plans for miracles?

What would you suggest I focus on in my practice with this deck?

If you aren't playing staticaster anymore, what are you playing?

Actually, what's your sideboard plan for the general meta?

[Echelon]

Congrats! It's cool to see the Knight + Retreat combo perform well and how streamlined the maindeck has become.

Does someone have the link to the future match somewhere? The link in the original post point to the deck tech.

[rufus]

Nicely done. Seeing decks change and improve over time is one of the best parts of the game.

[wcm8]

Awesome job.

I wonder if this deck might take the Shardless BUG approach -- play a fair midrange game 1 (with the added potential to just combo off) and then run your anti-combo cards in the sideboard. GSZ definitely seems under-played and is one of the best tutor cards available in Legacy. So perhaps Daze and FoW might end up in the SB alongside Meddling Mage.

I'm curious, how much would the current build suffer if I played 4 BoP instead of Hierarchs? NH is the one legacy staple I currently don't own as I sold them way back when I stopped playing Maverick.

[anwei]

Hello! Loving the deck. Absolutely sold on it, and want to play it at GP Tacoma. I have a few questions for you:


Why are you playing envelope? What matchups does it come in for?

What are you doing to combat combo decks? I mean, force of will is decent, but I feel like you're really lacking post-board.

What is your sideboard plans for miracles?

What would you suggest I focus on in my practice with this deck?

If you aren't playing staticaster anymore, what are you playing?

Actually, what's your sideboard plan for the general meta?

So, big-picture, I hopefully can slow combo decks with counters (and I guess Clique) to the point of doing something more winning-y - either GSZ'ing an effective win-con, landing a Knight that can tutor out the right land, or combo'ing off. This can go poorly, and my T8 match ended quickly after mull'ing to mediocre disruption was beaten by his disruption->fast combo in all 3 games (I should have lost game 2 as well). Storm can be okay (9 counters, 2 cliques, grave hate, teeg), but those games weren't close.
Take, e.g., Show and Tell. I don't have any dedicated board slots for it, but post-board I have 9 counters, 2 Cliques, Karakas, and Crop Rotation + 4 Knight + 4 Zenith to find Knight->Karakas. That's 21 slots I'm very happy to see, and resolving Show and Tell while I'm holding Knight probably (not always) favors me.

Envelop is fantastic. When considering Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, and Swan Song, I prefer the latter 2 when (a) Miracles is prominent, (b) it hits the main pieces of the top-tier combo decks, and/or (c) recent prominence of Pierce means its getting played around more. The third one is hard to judge, but most SnT decks accept some number of sol lands, so that's fine. The first two leave it perfectly-timed: Miracles is quite common (and Terminus is terrible with all the mana dorks), and hitting SnT, storm's tutors, NO/GSZ in Elves, and most reanimation spells is perfect. Many of those are coming from decks with the ability to pay through soft counters if they expect them, and an unconditional counter for their most important spells is huge. You leave behind the ability to counter Jace or random things (blood moon), and miss the parts of some combo decks (infect), but I'm mostly fine with that. I've considered a split with flusterstorm. As gravy, Envelop hits Ancestral Visions, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Pulse, and Deluge from Shardless. Again, Pierce/Flusterstorm on Visions is terrible. It comes in for Miracles, Shardless, and sorcery-driven combo.

This points toward a lot of my fair-deck boarding plan, which is to cut force against most fair decks and not worry too much about protecting Knight. Daze sometimes usually stays on the play, but I see so many Knights/Zenith that I'd rather make them have it repeatedly than lose cards to Force. This could be wrong. I'm going to at least consider dropping the number of maindeck FoW, maybe to 0, though I dodged a lot of combo this weekend, so that's skewed.

I've totally split on miracles, and whether I want the combo. Probably I think they can stall for long enough to just win with terminus if I go all in, so if I keep it, it might mean not activating for such a large swing (since ending with Taiga+KWR in place of real lands, with no lands left in my deck, and my guys on the bottom of my deck, is brutal). I want Envelop, Pridemage, Teeg, Grip, and Needle (6) at least, and probably EE and Judgment. I either cut the package (4 retreat, 1 steppe, 1 kwr) and 2 swords OR -3 Daze -2 Force -3 Swords on the play, -4 Force -1 Daze -3 Swords on draw.

Not sure about staticaster. It is good, and good against a lot (tokens, elves, dnt, infect), combos with retreat, and isn't terrible on the mana. I only know, for changes, that I want Maze and a 2nd Crop Rotation.

Practice combo turns, and (like with storm or something) assume they have creature removal, enchantment removal, flash blocker, 25 life, etc. See first post.

[anwei]

Awesome job.

I wonder if this deck might take the Shardless BUG approach -- play a fair midrange game 1 (with the added potential to just combo off) and then run your anti-combo cards in the sideboard. GSZ definitely seems under-played and is one of the best tutor cards available in Legacy. So perhaps Daze and FoW might end up in the SB alongside Meddling Mage.

I'm curious, how much would the current build suffer if I played 4 BoP instead of Hierarchs? NH is the one legacy staple I currently don't own as I sold them way back when I stopped playing Maverick.

FoW may well belong in the board. Daze is still pretty good - lots of mana guys means we often get a strong t3/t4 play and it's fantastic with the tap-out aggro openings.
Hierarch is real good.. Bird's not terrible, but Clique/Pridemage win more than you might expect.

[anwei]

Congrats! It's cool to see the Knight + Retreat combo perform well and how streamlined the maindeck has become.

Does someone have the link to the future match somewhere? The link in the original post point to the deck tech.

Streamlined from?
Some one mentioned that they saw some dailies, but I haven't seen other (legacy) lists. Would love to compare.

[phonics]

"It's not the name, but we're calling it Reliquary Retreat"

Ahhh scg, back to their old bullshit again.

Nothing quite like forcing out community nomenclature with words that are Wizard approved for representing color combinations!

[KobeBryan]

I've been trying this deck in the bant deck after some suggestions from Anwei

More often than not, you are winning off of exalted creatures.

I still believe 4 retreats are too much.

[rufus]

So, big-picture, I hopefully can slow combo decks with counters (and I guess Clique) to the point of doing something more winning-y - either GSZ'ing an effective win-con, landing a Knight that can tutor out the right land, or combo'ing off. This can go poorly, and my T8 match ended quickly after mull'ing to mediocre disruption was beaten by his disruption->fast combo in all 3 games (I should have lost game 2 as well). Storm can be okay (9 counters, 2 cliques, grave hate, teeg), but those games weren't close.
Take, e.g., Show and Tell. I don't have any dedicated board slots for it, but post-board I have 9 counters, 2 Cliques, Karakas, and Crop Rotation + 4 Knight + 4 Zenith to find Knight->Karakas. That's 21 slots I'm very happy to see, and resolving Show and Tell while I'm holding Knight probably (not always) favors me.
...

I wonder Leyline of Sanctity might be an alternative or supplemental combo hate option. (It's not terrible if it only blanks the opponent's discard or edict effects.)

[anwei]

I wonder Leyline of Sanctity might be an alternative or supplemental combo hate option. (It's not terrible if it only blanks the opponent's discard or edict effects.)

It's obviously a fine card, but it's tough competition for slots when any land or green creature gets a virtual 10/5 copies. Even something like Dryad Militant, while much less powerful overall against storm, becomes relevant 5x as often. Obviously, there are diminishing returns on having Teeg+Militant, but, toolboxing is addictive and ruins me on other sideboard options...

[rufus]

It's obviously a fine card, but it's tough competition for slots when any land or green creature gets a virtual 10/5 copies. Even something like Dryad Militant, while much less powerful overall against storm, becomes relevant 5x as often. Obviously, there are diminishing returns on having Teeg+Militant, but, toolboxing is addictive and ruins me on other sideboard options...

I guess the answer is just that this kind of deck just isn't going to be great against storm combo since you can get a whole lot of equity in other match-ups with the toolbox.

[ShiftyKapree]

When I see this it reminds me to the days of New Horizon. I honestly see that to be the best route of the deck. Running stifle and playing a more controlling list. Stifle seems to be a good fit in this deck and the return of terravore. Congrats on the finish! After playing Bant CBT to NO Bant To NO RUG ORDER to playing Rug Delver for the longest time, I can now break out my tundras again. Thank you!

[monovfox]

So, big-picture, I hopefully can slow combo decks with counters (and I guess Clique) to the point of doing something more winning-y - either GSZ'ing an effective win-con, landing a Knight that can tutor out the right land, or combo'ing off. This can go poorly, and my T8 match ended quickly after mull'ing to mediocre disruption was beaten by his disruption->fast combo in all 3 games (I should have lost game 2 as well). Storm can be okay (9 counters, 2 cliques, grave hate, teeg), but those games weren't close.
Take, e.g., Show and Tell. I don't have any dedicated board slots for it, but post-board I have 9 counters, 2 Cliques, Karakas, and Crop Rotation + 4 Knight + 4 Zenith to find Knight->Karakas. That's 21 slots I'm very happy to see, and resolving Show and Tell while I'm holding Knight probably (not always) favors me.

Envelop is fantastic. When considering Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Envelop, and Swan Song, I prefer the latter 2 when (a) Miracles is prominent, (b) it hits the main pieces of the top-tier combo decks, and/or (c) recent prominence of Pierce means its getting played around more. The third one is hard to judge, but most SnT decks accept some number of sol lands, so that's fine. The first two leave it perfectly-timed: Miracles is quite common (and Terminus is terrible with all the mana dorks), and hitting SnT, storm's tutors, NO/GSZ in Elves, and most reanimation spells is perfect. Many of those are coming from decks with the ability to pay through soft counters if they expect them, and an unconditional counter for their most important spells is huge. You leave behind the ability to counter Jace or random things (blood moon), and miss the parts of some combo decks (infect), but I'm mostly fine with that. I've considered a split with flusterstorm. As gravy, Envelop hits Ancestral Visions, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Pulse, and Deluge from Shardless. Again, Pierce/Flusterstorm on Visions is terrible. It comes in for Miracles, Shardless, and sorcery-driven combo.

This points toward a lot of my fair-deck boarding plan, which is to cut force against most fair decks and not worry too much about protecting Knight. Daze sometimes usually stays on the play, but I see so many Knights/Zenith that I'd rather make them have it repeatedly than lose cards to Force. This could be wrong. I'm going to at least consider dropping the number of maindeck FoW, maybe to 0, though I dodged a lot of combo this weekend, so that's skewed.

I've totally split on miracles, and whether I want the combo. Probably I think they can stall for long enough to just win with terminus if I go all in, so if I keep it, it might mean not activating for such a large swing (since ending with Taiga+KWR in place of real lands, with no lands left in my deck, and my guys on the bottom of my deck, is brutal). I want Envelop, Pridemage, Teeg, Grip, and Needle (6) at least, and probably EE and Judgment. I either cut the package (4 retreat, 1 steppe, 1 kwr) and 2 swords OR -3 Daze -2 Force -3 Swords on the play, -4 Force -1 Daze -3 Swords on draw.

Not sure about staticaster. It is good, and good against a lot (tokens, elves, dnt, infect), combos with retreat, and isn't terrible on the mana. I only know, for changes, that I want Maze and a 2nd Crop Rotation.

Practice combo turns, and (like with storm or something) assume they have creature removal, enchantment removal, flash blocker, 25 life, etc. See first post.


Thanks ^_^! How do you shortcut the combo process in a legal way?

[Echelon]

Streamlined from?
Some one mentioned that they saw some dailies, but I haven't seen other (legacy) lists. Would love to compare.

There had been some brewing a bunch of pages back in the Maverick topic (page 306 and the first bit of 307). There was some overlap with your build, though I believe the brew there missed the blue part. Might be something you'd like to look at, but it's probably not all that relevant anymore :smile:.

[monovfox]

tested for like, 8 hours today with this decklist:

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Crop Rotation


don't know about the 61 card mainboard (and I am not sold on Jaces, though he has won me some games.), but I definitely want to have some even better game 1 against storm (storm is actually kinda rough. You need to have dork + clique and 2nd land in hand or you've basically lost), shardless, and delver. Therefore mainboard scooze (has some other applications, generally good card), allowing me to play them sideboard bojuka bogs. I like swan song over envelop, just because it has slightly more applications (and the 2/2 rarely matters when you're swinging in for 26 trample pro-green), but envelope also seems like a good option, and I think the 2/2 can make a huge difference in certain matchups (read: shardless bug). I think this deck is good enough for me to play it at GP Seatac, and I will be testing it extensively for the next week. The deck is really, really fucking good. Excellent job brewing it Stephen ^_^ . I feel like it's well positioned right now just because it's still kind of rogue, and you can fake being on maverick for the first two turns (that, and your force of wills are twice as good as other people's due to the nature of the deck.)

[hofzge]

I agree with what has earlier been said about the Retreat. It does little alone and thus I would play something like this:

Land (23)
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (13)
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x True-Name Nemesis

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (4)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Sylvan Library

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15)
1x Containment Priest
1x Council's Judgment
2x Envelop
1x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Krosan Grip
1x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vendilion Clique

Lately I played a lot of 4color Loam and I always liked the fair Knight game and thus would play at least 3 Wastelands. The wastes also make your Dazes much better.
I would like some True Name Nemesis in the maindeck with all the exalted triggers. Against control or Sneak Show you can board in the Cliques.
Against Storm you have qa solid game with 4GSZ and maindeck Gaddock Teeg, as well as the counters and Wastelands. Teeg is the best game1 answer (it is usually a autoloss, as they almost never play maindeck bounce or Abrupt Decay) and with Dryad Arbor or with a manaelf and a turn 2 GSZ we have lots of scenarios where we can play it turn 2.

[Echelon]

Retreat isn't all that bad on its own or in multiples. Each Retreat allows you to tap down an attacker by fetching a land. Nice Emrakul/Griselbrand/Merit Lage token/Batterskull/Tarmogoyf ya got there!

Or, you know, use its scry mode to dig for business.

I do think a Life From the Loam could be awesome in this deck. It could turn Retreat + Wasteland into a nice CA engine. Waste your opponent, scry a card, waste your opponent, scry a card and so on. Also, it'd allow you to fill your yard for a nice big Knight to the face without Retreat.

[hofzge]

About Retreat: Yeah it can tap Emrakul for only 3 mana and having to have an open fetchland! This will from time to time occur, but you cannot count on it, especially as you need a uncracked fetchland to begin with.

Let's be honest - this is not really standard and a 3 mana enchantment should win you the game or do something great when it enters the game (both of which Retreat does not -> you need additional land drops, so it will only work on turn 4). Therefore I think it's better to have more of the card that is good alone (KotR) and then accidentally hit the combo from there.

Clearly it would be nice to have Loam and i think it is a good card to sideboard in grindy matchups, but it is mainly good if you have lands that do something (Cycle lands, Maze of Ith, Karakas), that interact with the graveyard (Grove-Punishing Fire) or ways to get value out of discarding cards/lands (Mox Diamond, Liliana of the Veil, Punishing Fire) - ergo I think it isn't great here, especially if you only play 2 Wastelands.

[Echelon]

Meh, no guts no glory!

I'm just saying it isn't as bad as it seems. Subpar, perhaps. Utterly hopeless? Nope.

[HSCK]

I'm really enjoying this deck. I'm trying something wonkier like Titania in the Sigarda slot, have you tried it before?

[maharis]

The fact that Retreat pitches to Force isn't nothing, I had lots of trouble getting to the right amount of blue cards for my deck. It may be a slow sorcery-speed permanent, but at least when that's a drawback, you have it as Force fuel (Or Brainstorm fodder).

Steven, did you ever get it in multiples? That's where I think you can start doing some insane stuff.

[anwei]

Thanks ^_^! How do you shortcut the combo process in a legal way?

A judge could advise better, but I usually get a fetchland and untap then activate again and say, "I'm going to do this several times, can I shortcut and do these at once, without reshuffling each time?"


There had been some brewing a bunch of pages back in the Maverick topic (page 306 and the first bit of 307). There was some overlap with your build, though I believe the brew there missed the blue part. Might be something you'd like to look at, but it's probably not all that relevant anymore :smile:.

Oh, yeah, I saw that, though it seemed like a couple people put a Trop, 2 Retreats, and maybe Rogue's Passage into their GWb Maverick lists. I didn't get the sense that anyone was really testing/developing anything.

On changes/thoughts people are listing:

I was playing a 1-off DRS as a mana dork instead of Scavenging Ooze, which wasn't great, but is a way to save a slot. Ooze is a fine meta call. I obviously cut the DRS.
I forgot to mention in the Envelop comments above, (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30043-Brave-Sir-Robin-(Bant-Knight-Retreat)&p=911890&viewfull=1#post911890) but I play Envelop over Swan Song whenever I'm playing Clique. That big a non-bo is usually not worth it in the most important matches.
3 Retreat is probably right/fine. I got multiples constantly, and it's terrible. It's obviously hard to balance/evaluate the trade-off between, "The redundant copy of this card is almost worthless unless I pitch to Force or Brainstorm away" happening more often and "Oh good, I was losing, but now I win off my topdeck" more often. The 4th is definitely on my under-consideration list, but I had to play 4 this weekend since, you know, playing a brew was what I decided to do. Though, don't forget that it can ramp into big turns. T2 Retreat, T3 Brainstorm, Jace, Brainstorm, Swords your guy is awesome. That's a real thing..
Loam has long been on the 61st card list, and I haven't spent long enough developing the idea. Particularly with the utility lands like Steppe/Bog, that you *could* waste yourself to recur them if needed. Playing a single Intuition also provides more access to utility lands, develops the Wasteland plan, and serves as a combo-piece tutor. It's clunky, but might be good. (I also had begun working on this in an Aggro Loam shell with Mox Diamond and Challice, but it wasn't very good.)
3rd (even 4th) Wasteland is at the top of my 61st card list, but the mana is seriously strained. I was down at 1, often during testing. In my test version that has 3-4 (4 right now), I'm running (3) Ponder, (3) Goyf, and no red splash at the moment, with the (miserable) plan of cycling through the whole deck and Wasting out my final lands to go all-in, if needed. Hopefully, with a better aggro plan, that's not necessary, and swinging for 16 or whatever is fine.
Part of the value of Retreat is supposed to be accelerating, and Jace/Sigarda are intended to play nice with Retreat in the absence of Knight. This has come up a lot more in testing than practice, and has moved very low on my list of common synergies. I may move Sigarda to the board, especially if I go to 3 Retreats.
I am very likely going to run True-Name, hopefully with another Pridemage and probably going to the 4th Hierarch. Clique is often disappointing as both a threat and disruption, and I'd rather go to something stronger in more ways.


So tentatively, -2 Clique, -1 Sigarda, -1 Bird, -1 Retreat, +2 TNN, +1 Pridemage?, +1 Hierarch, +1 Stifle?/Waste?/Ponder?

[HSCK]

Titania! How about E Tutor?

[anwei]

Titania is probably a judgment call. I don't love that it can get StP'd with the trigger on the stack, and the card's role is "super resilient tutorable threat that ignores the graveyard", with emphasis on the resilient. EE/Maelstrom Pulse are also not super obscure.

I play 1 E Tutor as a toolbox, from the board, often. I would not want it as a combo tutor in this deck unless you were already really deep on other targets (very different deck).

[HSCK]

That sounds reasonable enough. I've always had Elspeth as a 1-of in my Bant 75s, not sure how high you are on that card though?

[anwei]

That sounds reasonable enough. I've always had Elspeth as a 1-of in my Bant 75s, not sure how high you are on that card though?

I like her lots, especially in Knight-heavy decks, but, I was close on the blue count so I liked having clunkier slots be blue (fow) when possible. Also, Jace is a more different angle, which I probably over value.

[mistercakes]

it might not be the worst idea to run a deathrite shaman over the 4th hierarch. not sure how important the exalted is, and it gives you a maindeck out to reanimator and possibly snapcaster (if you have out the retreat + fetch)

[TnA_Will]

watching this deck perform and seeing this thread is why I LOVE legacy!!! Congrats on the finish man and I agree with EVERY point you have about the naming conventions and the "creative " aspect of all of it! Long live Brave Sir Robin!

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys, not sure if this belongs here but what the heck.

X post from Maverick:

Going hard in the legacy daily event tonight:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rafiq of the Many

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Path to Exile
2 Armageddon
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


I ended up 3-1 vs TES, Infect (loss), Grixis Delver, and Elves.

[wizard_of_gore]

Hey guys, not sure if this belongs here but what the heck.

X post from Maverick:

Going hard in the legacy daily event tonight:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rafiq of the Many

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Path to Exile
2 Armageddon
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sword of Feast and Famine


I ended up 3-1 vs TES, Infect (loss), Grixis Delver, and Elves.

Deck looks fantastic with nobles, mother of runes, KOTRs and even stoneforge mystics as they work fine with retreat to coralhelm, However, i would find room for 1x horizon canopy and 1 more wasteland, and swap flooded strands with misty rainforests.

[anwei]

This looks awesome. Mother frees you to use steppe to dodge blockers, easing mana a lot, though I'd still worry about coming up short on damage in some situations.
I'd try to fit one more forest/plains, since 8:8, after drawing natural lands, leaves fetches stranded mid-combo if you need more lands. Though maybe cavern/waste/karakas/steppe/maze are all too important to cut.

How was Rafiq?
Was SFM worth it?
Is combo terrible?


Edit: From Maverick Thread:



Edit: I will explain some choices:

1) Rafiq: I just have the most fun playing this guy. You can win out of nowhere and sometimes 1 attack step is all it takes vs Miracles or something like that. The original Brave Sir Robin list ran Kessig Wolf Run, but I think with Mom in the deck you don't really need to worry about trample or a 4th color, just protect and win (you will have extra coralhelm untap triggers by the time your knight is lethal anyways, not to mention uncracked fetches in play, so using mom super proactively is not a problem with coralhelm).

2) Retreat to Coralhelm might be able to replace Sylvan Library. They are sort of in the same category, and scrying can be sometimes act as a replacement for drawing at the cost of life. Also, it might be nice to have 4 just for the combo factor.

3) Lack of Thalia: I am the least sure about this. I think she is actually a necessity, but I wanted to streamline the combo plan. This is too costly in a lot of matchups though.

4) Maverick instead of Bant Midrange: Meh, hatebears are way more effective vs combo than countermagic from my experience. I would rather resolve a hatebear than a force of will 9 times out of ten vs most combo decks anyways, and like Steve said FOW does have it's negative connotations in the fair matchups.



I am not sure what to do with the list, Rafiq actually came in really handy vs combo by speeding up my clock by basically a million, but I don't know if it is worth a slot.

Sejiri Steppe randomly got a creature through with a Jitte in the elves matchup, so there is some natural power there. It is pretty nice to have a literal instant win by untapping with knight and playing a coralhelm.

I've said this in a couple places, but it's certainly possible that Maverick is a better Retreat deck - Mom is real good and the counter-magic is usually not really how I fight against fair decks (which are often running Decay anyway, where Mom really shines, or I don't want too many FoW and Daze isn't great at beating their removal).

That said, Maverick already has a huge edge in many fair matches, and may not need the help of potentially-clunk cards. On the archetype "wheel", inserting a slowish combo into a midrange deck is a great way to crush the midrange decks, but Maverick already positions itself as one of the midrangey-est of the midrangey decks, which could use help against Terminus and combo, but doesn't really need to go over-the-top of fair decks. More controlling decks do need the help against midrange, which makes the combo stronger there.

[ironclad8690]

I think Mistys would definitely be better. Horizon canopy would be nice as would wasteland 4, but I have been a fan of cutting wasteland when you are trying to resolve expensive permanents like Coralhelm. I might try 4.

I ended up cutting a strand for a Plains.

Rafiq was actually a bomb by turning an otherwise negligible clock into something opponents had to worry about immediately, and I don't even need to mention how good he is with jitte/sword triggers/double lifelink batterskull in the dream scenarios. You would not think this guy would be good against combo, but traditional maverick lists have a tough time closing out the game quickly after landing a hateful creature. Depths Stage helped this a little bit, but both Rafiq and Retreat to Coralhelm really mitigate this weakness. Against some combo decks you will just get the nut Noble > Knight > Coralhelm draw and turn 3 them. This played a role in the elves matchup, which maverick otherwise struggles with.

Stoneforge mystic package was kind of thrown in because I needed a way to shore up aggressive creature matchups that attack mana like Delver. It is sort of the backup plan that can be utilizeed when short on mana, as you only really need a forest and a plains to get a batterskull in play. I will say, if you go for a cavern of souls > stoneforge line, please play a basic plains first so you can be using your land drops later to disrupt as well as put the equip into play. This cost me vs infect last night, where I had to choose between putting jitte into play and wastelanding them/maze of ith etc (only green from forest and colorless from cavern of souls, and I had the plains option all along).

I think the manabase could certainly use a little work, and it is quite possible cavern is unnecessary. I just wanted to hedge in the long games vs miracles where resolving humans is really important.

I think moving forward I will try to make some cuts for Thalia, because the game 1 vs combo is not really where you want it to be and that frees up a couple of sideboard slots.

[anwei]

I think you're right about Thalia, and she's probably even more important than SFM. I'd cut like utility guys (2nd Pridemage, Scryb Ranger) and a sword to get her in there.

Did you ever have lethal damage trouble? Taiga+Wolf Run is the costliest part of my deck, design-space wise, but I wasn't comfortable cutting and losing wins in the many situations it beats. As above, I do think Mom gives a leg up on beating things like TNN, but it still seems iffy, even against (e.g.) a DRS out of Elves. (There is, obviously, the major difference of Maverick's ability to push through other damage more reliably.)

[ironclad8690]

Admittedly, every match I was basically playing the control role trying to stop what they were doing until I could land the combo or a Rafiq to start bringing the beats. I didn't really have lethal damage trouble because none of the matches came down to a board stand-off, it was more like I either had the nuts to stop what they were doing or I didn't. I prioritized things like Maze of Ith and Wasteland vs infect and hatebears vs storm, and once those things were in place they either beat me by destroying my defenses or I just got there with mediocre beats/eventual combo.

[HSCK]

Creatures: 14
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 Mother of Runes
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Combo: 3
3 Retreat to Coralhelm

Spells: 19
1 Sylvan Library
2 Daze
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 22
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kessig Wolf-Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Wasteland
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard: 15
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Krosan Grip
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
2 Meddling Mage

Trying this out tomorrow, inspired by the last few posts. I like Mom a lot, along with Rafiq, but I can't bring myself to move away from Bstorm+Force. Shaving a Daze could be wrong, but it's been so underwhelming against Miracles and Shardless.

Also, a version from Japan that did well: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD00574W/

[anwei]

Trying this out tomorrow, inspired by the last few posts. I like Mom a lot, along with Rafiq, but I can't bring myself to move away from Bstorm+Force. Shaving a Daze could be wrong, but it's been so underwhelming against Miracles and Shardless.

Also, a version from Japan that did well: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD00574W/

Nice - I've been thinking broadly about getting 2-3x Moms in there, and Daze is a fine shave (as is FoW). Turning Sigarda blue also helps with the count, and "my bombs pitch to FoW" is a good place to be.

Japanese list (great find):

Lands (25)
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas

Guys+Walkers (13)
4 Hierarch
4 Knight
1 Pridemage
1 Clique
1 E Witness
2 JTMS

Other Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 StP
3 GSZ
4 Retreat
1 Loam

Board (15)
1 Bog
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
2 Clique
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 K Grip
2 Pierce
1 Surgical
2 Choke (!)
1 Sylvan Library

I like the Loam, and am really interested in Depths+Stage as another low-investment axis, but it doesn't solve the problem of over-dependance on Knight. It's really interesting that a combo turn includes making a Marit Lage (if you want) instead of Wolf Run. If there was a good way to get haste, like a Haste Steppe, that would be insane for Knight *and* Marit Lage (Slayer's Stronghold is still in red), but alas.

[ironclad8690]

I like the Loam, and am really interested in Depths+Stage as another low-investment axis, but it doesn't solve the problem of over-dependance on Knight. It's really interesting that a combo turn includes making a Marit Lage (if you want) instead of Wolf Run. If there was a good way to get haste, like a Haste Steppe, that would be insane for Knight *and* Marit Lage (Slayer's Stronghold is still in red), but alas.

Hm, now that you mention haste, Hall of the Bandit Lord could be a cool way to pump out haste Knights, but it is likely just worse than everything already there.

[HSCK]

Hm, now that you mention haste, Hall of the Banit Lord could be a cool way to pump out haste Knights, but it is likely just worse than everything already there.

I think you quoted the wrong poster, haha. Will have some testing in this afternoon.

[HSCK]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-11-05

Bahra with a cool spin on it addressing some of the same issues with a pair of Stoneforges and two equipment instead of TNN an Mom. From my testing, Rafiq was incredible while Mom and TNN were definitely solid. DRS decks getting above 20 life was happening in grindy games as they can also shrink and stall the ground, but Rafiq let's you break stalemates and avoid Decay really well.

[anwei]

I watched the stream a bit. I don't really like the cuts (down to 16 blue cards, 2 retreats) required to fit the SFM package.

I think I'll try Mom, and maybe Rafiq.

Unrelated, where do y'all find the Japanese/MTGO lists? I can pull up the urls, but is there a place to subscribe through RSS?

[HSCK]

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/deck/search.aspx?format=Legacy&releasedt_type=1&min_releasedt=&max_releasedt=&player=&name_je=&name_je_type=1&search.x=submit

http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/deck-lists-magic-online-products-game-info

[Moroklumpen]

I'm trying this in a local event tomorrow. Does anyone have any suggestions to adjust for the post-GP meta? Miracles is the most popular deck in town and likely to remain so; Shardless Sultai and Grixis Delver are likely to pick up as well.

[anwei]

Eh, I don't think anything changed. Abrupt Decay and Terminus remain the cards to beat.

I've had very little time to work with this, but as above, I think I really like 2 TNN in the Clique slots and cutting 1 Retreat.

I'm less sure about Rafiq for Sigarda (she goes to the board, and is quite good against BGx and Miracles) or a couple Mothers maindeck, but plan to try both. Without Mothers, the Retreat slot is pretty open: Stifle, Spell Pierce, Ponder, Wasteland, 2nd Pridemage are probably the top contenders.

[Moroklumpen]

Yeah, Mother seems good against Decay and StP, so I'll try a couple. I think, however, that I'll try the Cliques for now unless you would like to argue in more detail for the switch to Nemesis. So I'll try -1 Retreat, move Sigarda to board, +2 Mothers main and drop Staticaster to make room in board.

[anwei]

How'd it go?

Obviously play whatever you want and enjoy. My TNN vs. Clique thoughts are:
1. Combo is down at the moment and fair decks are bigger. And, the G1 combo match-up is pretty circumstantial anyway.
2. TNN gives even more axes to fight the fair decks. It combos real well with the exalted guys and Retreat (vigilance makes him much stronger, and therefore doesn't require fetch lands to make Retreat useful on their turns), beats Decay (a clear weakness), and can come out so fast that many fair decks can't handle it. (It's worse, but not much worse than Clique against Miracles.) Clique is fragile and often slower against fair decks.
3. My strategy against unfair decks is usually buying time with early counters, then slamming stronger lock pieces (Crop Rotate for Karakas, wipe their yard, Teeg, Ooze) and/or combo-ing out. Clique is fast enough coming down, is not a fast enough clock, and (most importantly) is not definitive enough. It's obviously a good card, and nice to see, but it's filling two hotly-contested spots, and it's not strong enough at what I wanted it for.

[Moroklumpen]

I see your point; it's just that I have two copies that I finally managed to trade for, so I've been itching to play with them. I can see the advantages of TNN (though seeing you analyze them in the context of this deck is very helpful), I just think it's a really dull card to play with, so I decided to go with the fun card this time.

The tournament went pretty well BTW. I did lose to Reanimator in the first round due to not mulliganing aggressively enough; he Exhumed Griselbrand T2 in both game 1 and 3 with counter backup, and I had too little interaction. In the second round I got a bye, and then I beat the other Reanimator in the room by just drawing a lot better than him. In the last round I faced Infect, but his draws were a bit slow, so I had the time to slam knight and dictate the pace from there. 3-1 was good enough for a bit of store credit, so I walked away with a Sower of Temptations and a Glen Elendra Archmage from the somewhat picked-out store display. My only true regret is not actually casting Retreat a single time.

[anwei]

I just think it's a really dull card to play with

For sure.



The tournament went pretty well BTW. I did lose to Reanimator in the first round due to not mulliganing aggressively enough; he Exhumed Griselbrand T2 in both game 1 and 3 with counter backup, and I had too little interaction.

The T2-3 combo decks are always the toughest matches for decks like this. We have, in theory, some super strong and pretty consistent T2-4 plays on the other end of a GSZ or some such, but we usually have to open proactively, with a mana guy, in order to play that game. Reanimator, in particular, can often feel unlosable if you make it past T4. If they have it on T2, there's often nothing to be done. Not running out Hierarch is usually just too slow, since our answers cost more than (e.g.) Delver's.

Not seeing Retreat is not fun.


Edit: A list made 5th/16 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18700&iddeck=141803), with 59/ my 60 (cutting a fetch for a Crop Rotation maindeck) and a couple changes in the board. Courser is on my list-to-try, and need to see. Swan Song seems questionable with Clique main, since the non-bo is so brutal when it happens.

[wcm8]

I know this is an unorthodox suggestion, but is Noble Hierarch's granting of Exalted and reliable generation of mana better than just going with Deathrite Shaman? There are a few obvious advantages:

1. It survives -1/-1 and 1-damage sweepers. Surprisingly relevant, and in a deck that is running stuff like TNN, Clique, potentially Mother of Runes, etc. this can be important.
2. With this deck's own high amount of fetch lands and the the general ubiquity of them, generating mana is rarely going to be an issue. Not to mention, it can grant access to Red and Black mana for sideboard cards and one-ofs, reducing the need to run off-color Duals. Stuff like Abrupt Decay becomes a more feasible SB option. I'll grant that this exposes it to Pithing Needles, but that means they aren't naming Jace/Knight of the Reliquary.
3. Against graveyard-centric decks, running 4 copies of hate in the main deck is obviously a huge advantage. Access to green mana is a given against Dredge and Reanimator, and it wouldn't be too difficult to fit in a Bayou/Scrubland/Underground Sea in there to disrupt ANT/TES. Lands just won a GP, so having a main deck card to address Loam is great. Punishing Fire is another target that could be addressed with Shaman's help.
4. Provided you have access to Black, DRS provides damage (and disruption) without even requiring the attack phase and is generally a much better card to draw in the late-game. This ability seems to offset the loss of Exalted, if not perhaps being outright superior. The reason Hierarch is so much better in Infect is because that archetype wins through Poison damage. Having played BUG archetypes for quite some time, there are so many games that are won thanks to the Shaman's ability.
5. A corner-case, but for the rare occasion when someone is running something like Snuff Out or Ghastly Demise, DRS dodges these.
6. Playing it in the early turns against an unknown opponent provides a bit of ambiguity to your advantage. Hierarch implies Bant, Maverick, or perhaps Infect, whereas DRS implies a whole other range of decks lists. The confusion might distort your opponent's lines of play.

I'm interested in giving this deck a spin and will test DRS in the Hierarch/BoP slots and will report back.

[anwei]

I know this is an unorthodox suggestion, but is Noble Hierarch's granting of Exalted and reliable generation of mana better than just going with Deathrite Shaman?

Also:
7. Can become a serious clock with retreat activations in odd circumstances. Drawing a fetch land can drain for 6 in one turn, if you've got the mana. If you're comboing against, e.g., an Ensnaring Bridge that you can't kill, you can circumstancially drain pretty significantly in a single turn - 4-6 activations wouldn't be crazy, if you can cobble together the black mana.
3b. It's x=1 tutorable grave hate with 4x GSZ.

In my earliest iterations, I was running 2 Hierarch, 2 DRS, 1 Bird.

But, against it:
1. Shrinking Knight is seriously bad. In normal grindy games, depending on a Deathrite is often the difference between an 8/8 Knight and a 4/4 Knight. Hopefully you're using their yard and don't have to do this, but when it comes up, it's a terrible feeling.
Even in combo games, there's a list of things that makes everything lethal: our graveyard is untouched, we have a mana dork, they don't have tons of blockers and/or protected blockers (TNN), they haven't gained much life, and we haven't lost too much life. We can usually absorb 1 of those with no problem, and 2 of those if we're willing to waste ourselves out of lands as part of the combo. So, messing with our graveyard in some 25-40% of games means that we're much more open to non-specific problems messing our combo up.
2. Exalted is non-trivial. The deck's secondary win-condition is Clique/TNN/Pridemage beats, and having 1-2 of these effects very significantly affects the game and elevates our guy's relevance. Thinking about a 4xHierarch, 2xPridemage, 1xRafiq list with True-Name makes me salivate.
3. The mana is not dependable, mainly against the many other decks playing DRS, and we really want it to be there. We want to kill Deathrite decks dead while they're adjusting their posture, and that means not dancing with their Deathrites.
4. The black mana is not viable in the deck's current form. It's a travesty that I don't have a 3rd Wasteland, but I don't think it's worth dropping the blue/green* mana even lower, cutting Wolf Run, or shipping Karakas to the board. 3rd Wasteland is a priority over any black source and best case, it'd be a singleton, which is really less exciting for DRS activations. If running several DRS and black mana, Wolf Run has to go. That might be fine, with an extra source of incremental damage, but I don't love that.
(Note: If you go this route, be sure to practice comboing against TNN. You'll need to use Steppe to get past TNN, but you can't use Retreat to untap after getting pro-blue. The optimal ordering is either (a) to activate to get 2 fetchlands ready during your main phase, then attack, and combo off before blockers are declared. Tap down all non-blue blockers with your fetches, then end by fetching out Sejiri Steppe for pro-blue. You can stack the triggers to untap Knight before he gets pro-blue, but you won't be able to activate/untap him again, or, (b) to combo during main-phase for some reason, make sure that Steppe comes on your last activation and put Stepe protection on the stack before Retreat so the untap resolves first, before you attack. This obviously blanks Steppe as protection and you can only do it once.)

* To add Wasteland: If I want 13 Islands for Daze, and to maintain utility lands, I could swap Taiga for Volcanic Island and cut a blue source. This makes red mana less-fetchable, but Staticaster probably won't survive a fair-match-oriented maindeck reconfiguration anyway. If I keep 2 Tundras (and Tundra+Forest is really good; I wish I had 3), I have to cut 3rd Trop or 8th Fetch. Either drops the deck to 12.5 green sources (Arbor sucks) to maintain 13 blue sources for Daze. That's lame.
Wasteland probably needs to be a 23rd land, which isn't terrible in my landfall deck, but space is super-premium, or, come at the cost of losing Wolf Run. Which I hate.

[anwei]

I won a small (14 player) event today, good for a Volcanic (3-0-1, then won out T4). Usually half or so of the room is more casual, so I expected (and saw) fewer top tier lists, including fewer Abrupt Decays, so I decided not to try Mother of Runes until I've tested it more. I played against MUD, Reanimator (unintentional draw), Punishing Jund, Maverick, Reanimator again, and Merfolk. I ran this:

Lands (22)
3 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Wasteland

Guys (16)
3 Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 KotR
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 JTMS

Spells (22)
4 GSZ
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (15)
2 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ethersworn Canonist

I liked this configuration: TNN was great, and Rafiq was quite strong once in a while (still not sure on it) and, as before, it's really nice having your expensive stuff pitch to FoW. The fair match boost from True-Name was enough that I cut Path, Submerge, and EE (already have enough utility removal, though I'm not sure on this vs. K Grip vs. Needle) and added 2 more U counters in the 75, which was nice.

The maindeck Spell Pierce could be a Maze in fairer metas, and I might swap them anyway. That card is real good.


Also: another (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD01834S/) pair (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD01833S/) of Japanese lists, similar to the one before (one is the same guy), with maindeck Depths and access to Tabernacle.

[Zirath]

Played a version of this today at a 2K. First event in about 3 months. Totally botched both my list and my play. Wolfrun and the red splash don't feel very useful. I'd rather be playing the TNNs. I also played without Daze, which I was pretty happy about. I'll post a theoretical list tomorrow after I think about it a little more in depth.

[anwei]

Interested to see it. I thought/tested around cutting KWR some this week (not mutually exclusive with playing TNN), and updated the first post with this:



The options to address this are to protect Knight better or to have more threats, and I think the latter is better. I tried Sylvan Safekeeper a lot, and it was often disappointing. When I had the land to spare and hit GSZ, I often just wanted to grab another Knight. I think, if I play Legacy again anytime soon, I'd seriously consider moving FoW to the sideboard for a maindeck Crop Rotation (2nd in side), a 2nd Pridemage, a Scavenging Ooze or 3rd Clique, and Maze of Ith. Maybe I'd try Safekeeper again. A pair of Mother of Runes might be great, though lacking oodles of creatures is tough. For this version of the deck, I'd plan on swapping Cliques for True-Names, as they provide a very resilient Plan B and can be quite fast with exalted.

One of the more difficult decisions is whether to keep Kessig Wolf Run. Cutting it for a Wasteland (and Taiga for Tundra or a 9th Fetch) makes the mana much better, lets us go to 4th Hierarch, and the 3rd Waste is probably quite good, especially if cutting a Retreat. The problems are ensuring we can hit lethal and beating blockers. The blocker problem is mostly solved by Retreat, particularly if we don't need to make mana off fetching lands. The biggest widely-played issue is True-Name, and Steppe can allow one attack through them (which does cost our ability to avoid removal on the combo turn). Double Mother of Runes, to protect a blocker against Knight and Retreat, or Mirran Crusader with Sword of Fire/Ice, are much less likely.
Hitting lethal is a real issue. As above, comboing without KWR is best when our graveyard is untouched, they don't have tons of blockers and/or protected blockers (TNN), they haven't gained much life, we haven't lost too much life, and they don't have removal. If our graveyard hasn't been touched, a non-KWR deck can get Knight up to a 24/24 (non-exalted) by starting with 5 lands in play and putting everything in the yard, including wastelanding Karakas and Sejiri Steppe. If we want to keep the Steppe plan up (a good idea) and combo smartly from 5 lands, we can get Knight to a 22/22. StP on Goyf or a couple DRS activations (lands or life gain) are enough to stop this, and that's not great.

So, the "corner" cases where KWR is necessary - 4+ DRS land exiles, StP'ing a guy or getting hit with batterskull and not doing other damage that game, TNN+removal, a single GY hit like Relic or Crypt, etc. - come up often enough. It also doesn't put you all-in if you want to win and not just get to 12/12, swing, and pass the turn: if they have double removal or whatever, you didn't just waste yourself out of the game permanently. I think in my win-and-in at the Open, my Painter opponent slammed T2 RiP and I untapped and won, ramping into GSZ for Pridemage. By the time I cast it, I had 5+ lands in exile and only 3 in play: Knight would have maxed out at 17/17 without it. Obviously, we're a big favorite to win that, but painter+blast leaves us with 0 lands in play or the deck, which means actually stopping earlier and not going all in.

That all said, the cost of the red splash is real, you can still win most combo games without it, and most actual games are not fast combo games, but they run long enough that you get damage in along the way and both ways of building leave them with similar outs.


After playing this weekend and seeing the combo much less frequently (maybe only 2/11 game wins?), and maybe winning more games off Wasteland (and losing some number off bad mana), it's a pretty tempting change to make. (Though, I actually naturally-drew Taiga+KWR several times, and it can be quite good apart from Retreat.)

[Cartesian]

Centaur Garden, for that bit of extra reach?

[Zirath]

After a decent amount of thought, here is where I am:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Daze/Flex
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor/Elspeth, Knight Errant

2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgement
1 Life from the Loam
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Something to Help with Young Pyro (Dueling Grounds)

For me, Daze isn't inherently strong. 3 Daze can very badly cause you to lose tempo since we don't have 1 drop threats to control the board the way the Delver decks do. I think at least 2 TNN is necessary since we don't have reach in Bant colors; in my opinion, the 3rd one is very important. The reach concept extends to Elspeth vs Jace. This is almost assuredly a meta issue.

I'm going to try to tune this list a little bit. I found Retreat to be a generally good card in this deck since it allows us to apply pressure and it's a card quality engine in stalls. I'm sure I made a mistaken in design logic somewhere, but I don't see it atm. That's the problem with being out of practice.

I was just reminded of the existence of Dueling Grounds. That will probably be my last sideboard slot in testing.

[HSCK]

I can't imagine playing this deck without 3 GSZ, and even that is a stretch.

[anwei]

I agree exactly. I consider trying 3 sometimes, but really, I'd way rather see multiples (even all 4) than none, which is a good litmus test for that sort of thing. Further, with 11 3-drops (that's a lot), access to T1 acceleration is really important. In typical Bant Aggro lists, I try to keep to 7 3-drops. I was happy to get down to 9, this time around. Retreat can help some (you can power out 2 on T3, if Retreat is one and you have dork+fetch), but it's a mana intensive deck: you need more T1 guys, to say nothing of the late-game versatility of the card (GSZ for Rafiq with TNN out is insane).

Daze is not the same card as it is in Delver, for sure, and it can be borderline. When I was trying to Moms, I played them in the 4th Retreat and 3rd Daze slot.
Here, it's much more of a T2 card, after tapping out for your 3-drop, than a T1 card. Sometimes you play Hierarch, Daze their Stoneforge, are behind on tempo, then really get punished for it. But the ability to run out a T2 "bomb" with tempo-positive protection or an answer to their "answering" play (SFM, Lily, etc.) can be really good. And having some level of disruption for combo while advancing our expensive, tap-out game plan is necessary. I like Pierce (I'm running 1 now), but it's often uncastable if you want to keep playing, and sometimes you lose by keeping mana up for Pierce and falling too far behind.

An Argentinian tournament had 2 more lists show up. The winner played 73/75 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18708&iddeck=141865), cutting Envelop for Flusterstorm :-/, and a list with 2 maindeck E Tutor (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18708&iddeck=141870) took 6th (notably, 2 Diverts in the board, which seam really reasonable if you're going deep on the Retreat plan). I don't really love committing that much to the combo, and I would look to make a little better use of the side-board if doing so (add a Canonist, some stronger gy hate like Wheel of Sun and Moon (or maybe even a RiP), and maybe something Dueling Grounds).

[Zirath]

I agree exactly. I consider trying 3 sometimes, but really, I'd way rather see multiples (even all 4) than none, which is a good litmus test for that sort of thing. Further, with 11 3-drops (that's a lot), access to T1 acceleration is really important. In typical Bant Aggro lists, I try to keep to 7 3-drops. I was happy to get down to 9, this time around. Retreat can help some (you can power out 2 on T3, if Retreat is one and you have dork+fetch), but it's a mana intensive deck: you need more T1 guys, to say nothing of the late-game versatility of the card (GSZ for Rafiq with TNN out is insane).

Daze is not the same card as it is in Delver, for sure, and it can be borderline. When I was trying to Moms, I played them in the 4th Retreat and 3rd Daze slot.
Here, it's much more of a T2 card, after tapping out for your 3-drop, than a T1 card. Sometimes you play Hierarch, Daze their Stoneforge, are behind on tempo, then really get punished for it. But the ability to run out a T2 "bomb" with tempo-positive protection or an answer to their "answering" play (SFM, Lily, etc.) can be really good. And having some level of disruption for combo while advancing our expensive, tap-out game plan is necessary. I like Pierce (I'm running 1 now), but it's often uncastable if you want to keep playing, and sometimes you lose by keeping mana up for Pierce and falling too far behind.

An Argentinian tournament had 2 more lists show up. The winner played 73/75 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18708&iddeck=141865), cutting Envelop for Flusterstorm :-/, and a list with 2 maindeck E Tutor (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18708&iddeck=141870) took 6th (notably, 2 Diverts in the board, which seam really reasonable if you're going deep on the Retreat plan). I don't really love committing that much to the combo, and I would look to make a little better use of the side-board if doing so (add a Canonist, some stronger gy hate like Wheel of Sun and Moon (or maybe even a RiP), and maybe something Dueling Grounds).

I have played Bant enough to know that Daze tends to fall apart very quickly in my hands. It's really strong against combo decks and against slower decks. Against Delver in particular, it's a liability. Against Miracles, they can play around it unless you have a very pressure heavy hand. I have consistently been unhappy with Daze and I don't think playing it is a matter of right or wrong as much as it is about playstyle. We need to commit to the board on turn 1 to make Daze powerful. In this case, you may be right that we need to be playing all 4 GSZ. I'll make sure I try the more common builds too but I think we need more green creatures for this to feel useful. Is that a correct assumption or can I get away with 12 green creatures?

With that in mind, I think you have to play some number of Ponders. Bant in the modern era has a very consistent streak of falling behind its opponent when it has a very midrange-y hand. Especially with Daze, Wasteland and a lack of 2s if we don't play SFM (not that I want to), we need the ability to smooth our hands out a little bit and the fact that we now have a combo to look for means that Ponder digging is more powerful.

I'll spend more time thinking about this. I'm convinced that the red splash is unnecessary. I'm even more unconvinced that my particular list is correct.

[anwei]

I find Daze pretty reasonable on the play against Delver, and pretty bad against Miracles.

If Dryad Arbor and Knight were the only targets, I think I'd still want 4 GSZ. When you want Pridemage, Rafiq, Sigarda, Teeg, or Scooze, it's probably the best card in your deck. But even when you don't, an Elf/Knight split card is fantastic, especially when the Shardless/Miracles matches come down to removal vs. Knight war.
If I cut Forces, I'd love to maindeck an Ooze and 2nd Pridemage, but the constraints (mana, blue cards, green creatures, combo pieces) are probably too significant without dropping Forces.

Ponder lives at the top of my 61st card list, and could challenge slots like the 2nd Jace, 3rd Daze, or 4th Retreat/Spell Pierce. Midrangey hands can (of course) be too midrangey, but the combo win does a lot in that regard - it's not like we roll over to something like Shardless Bug without it, and the games often go to a point that it's good to go. 4 Brainstorm, 2 Jace, 3 Retreat, and the Sylvan give pretty reasonable selection.

[Zirath]

I find Daze pretty reasonable on the play against Delver, and pretty bad against Miracles.

If Dryad Arbor and Knight were the only targets, I think I'd still want 4 GSZ. When you want Pridemage, Rafiq, Sigarda, Teeg, or Scooze, it's probably the best card in your deck. But even when you don't, an Elf/Knight split card is fantastic, especially when the Shardless/Miracles matches come down to removal vs. Knight war.
If I cut Forces, I'd love to maindeck an Ooze and 2nd Pridemage, but the constraints (mana, blue cards, green creatures, combo pieces) are probably too significant without dropping Forces.

Ponder lives at the top of my 61st card list, and could challenge slots like the 2nd Jace, 3rd Daze, or 4th Retreat/Spell Pierce. Midrangey hands can (of course) be too midrangey, but the combo win does a lot in that regard - it's not like we roll over to something like Shardless Bug without it, and the games often go to a point that it's good to go. 4 Brainstorm, 2 Jace, 3 Retreat, and the Sylvan give pretty reasonable selection.

You can get punished very badly against Delver for Dazing if you didn't make a play turn 1.

My main issue lies with Jace. While he's theoretically good, we don't really make incredible use of him the way we used to. I have some trouble believing he is a good card in our deck right now.

[anwei]

You can get punished very badly against Delver for Dazing if you didn't make a play turn 1.

Do you consider a turn 1 mana guy insufficient for this? I'm obviously light on 2-drops, but usually fine with that..



My main issue lies with Jace. While he's theoretically good, we don't really make incredible use of him the way we used to. I have some trouble believing he is a good card in our deck right now.

Yea, I listed the 2nd one as a flex slot above, and that's definitely an option. Before Abrupt Decay, playing Knight->Jace seemed unbeatably synergistic, though it's much weaker now. I was initially interested in having multiple things to do with early Retreat mana, if I opened T2 Retreat. That has proven to be a very infrequent line, since there's almost always something better to be doing in keepable hands (although Hierarch, Retreat, Jace, and some lands sure isn't bad). It still comes down pretty early compared to other decks, but usually not because of Retreat.
It is quite good against the two top decks of the format, but I wouldn't argue much with shipping a copy (to the board?) for a Ponder.

[Zirath]

Do you consider a turn 1 mana guy insufficient for this? I'm obviously light on 2-drops, but usually fine with that..

It should be. I just haven't been playing 8 mana dorks.

[monovfox]

Ive actually been playing 5 mana dorks so I can more consistently play the kessig wolf run plan against miracles (Not the kill, I mean literally pumping up mana dorks with kessig wolf run because it's hilarious, though perhaps some sort of gavony township plan is better if you're going that route). With this it also makes daze a lot better because with gsz in hand I can just threaten to win on turn 2-3 against storm without straight up losing to miracles.(I want some game against combo in g1, and sfm does not give that at all. I also run a maindeck teeg as a 61st card.)

[Cfetchcaviar]

Has anyone tested lotus cobra?

[anwei]

Some of the early Modern discussion floated the idea. I wouldn't really want it in Legacy (or, probably, in a modern counterpart); the ability to use landfall triggers to ramp with Retreat is a pretty marginal application, so I don't think I'd want to go far enough in that direction to look for more enablers.
It's possible that some sort of creature-heavy Hierarch+Retreat+Cobra+Collected Company thing could crank out an explosive density of T3-5 threats, but I don't think that's a viable Legacy strategy. Typically the midrange decks of the format are sufficiently good at doing that sort of thing, when it's called for, and they work to remain relevant on other axes (e.g., disruption).

[Cfetchcaviar]

Some of the early Modern discussion floated the idea. I wouldn't really want it in Legacy (or, probably, in a modern counterpart); the ability to use landfall triggers to ramp with Retreat is a pretty marginal application, so I don't think I'd want to go far enough in that direction to look for more enablers.
It's possible that some sort of creature-heavy Hierarch+Retreat+Cobra+Collected Company thing could crank out an explosive density of T3-5 threats, but I don't think that's a viable Legacy strategy. Typically the midrange decks of the format are sufficiently good at doing that sort of thing, when it's called for, and they work to remain relevant on other axes (e.g., disruption).

Interesting, thanks!

[screallix]

I finished top#2 (4:1 winning each round 2:0 only losing to Grixis Delver) with Brave Sir Robin at a small legacy event at our local store.
Deck feels awkwardly strong because of it's rogue gameplan.

Wrote a short article about deck choice, card choice and match ups at:
https://bordifies.com/articles/leaving-a-legacy-with-brave-sir-robin-2-at-kieler-legacy/

Decklist: Brave Sir Robin (Retreat Knight) by Peer Oke Richelsen
Creatures (13)
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instants (15)
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries (5)
1 Ponder
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

Enchantments (4)
4 Retreat to Coralhelm

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (21)
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Savannah
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Taiga
2 Tundra
2 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Crop Rotation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog

[anwei]

I played a (slightly modified version of the) Japanese list tonight at an 8-person tournament and won (2-0-1 with unintentional draw got there). I wanted to play Tabernacle because I finally picked one up, though I think it belongs in the board (as in ~half the Japanese lists). Stage-Depths sometimes sometimes seemed really strong (I opened with the combo twice and naturally drew it once), but I over-extended into it a couple times (once, Crop Rotating into Wasteland on opposing Wasteland, going down 4 lands total) and lost to StP (leaving me with nothing). I'm not sure about it, but:
- It's only 1 more slot than Wolf Run for slightly better mana (or slightly worse with a 3rd waste)
- It wins most of the same games when you couldn't win without one or the other
- It makes Knight-without-Retreat more threatening than she was, though she's pretty good (especially important for:)
- It alleviates dependency on the yard
- Crop Rotation starts looking seriously main-deck-able

The cards are both obviously bad, and having still more things-which-are-great-if-Knight-survives is becoming increasingly bad, but I'll probably test it again.

List I played (61 cards)
Lands (25)
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Guys (13)
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
2 JTMS

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard (15)
2 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krossan Grip
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

[Seraphix]

Anwei, are you still playing this? What's your latest list?

Also, out of curiosity: around what percentage of games are actually won by "combo-ing" with Knight and Retreat?

[anwei]

I probably combo out in 30-40% of my wins. This obviously varies with only 3 Retreats, and playing a somewhat-known deck places an even bigger target on Knight. When untapping with Knight and landing Retreat, I think I've only lost 1 (maybe 2) games, and that against Miracles/Terminus. (If they have creature/enchantment removal in response to the first activation, and I don't have a fetch in play, it could still get broken up, but that hasn't happened as far as I remember.)

I only get to play very occasionally, and have been quite busy with home/work recently, but I intend to continue to play it. I've actually played it in 5 events, with 1 scrubby 2-2 mess (hadn't playtested at all before), doing well at SCG, and winning the other 3 - I'm 25-6-2 in sanctioned matches. (Which, frankly, is kind of annoying - I don't usually stick with one deck for long, but it doesn't feel fair to put it down unless I lose more.)

I don't really have a more-refined list at the moment. This is the list I have slotted to play in the near future, with a number of test slots (trying Rafiq again, dropping KWR, playing a 3rd Waste, Ponder over 4th GSZ).
Lands (23)
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

Guys (14)
4 Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 KotR
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 JTMS

Spells (23)
3 GSZ
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (15)
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Submerge

The various flex slots where I haven't decided:
- Maze of Ith often vs. 8th counter (Pierce/Daze/Snare/Misdirection) vs. Crop Rotation
- Rafiq vs. Sigarda vs. 3rd TNN vs. ??
- Ponder vs. 4th GSZ
- 3rd Tundra/3rd Waste vs. Taiga/Wolf Run vs. Thespian's Stage/Tundra+Depths (in Maze slot)

I may try testing 2 SFM, Jitte, and Batterskull at some point. As much as I dislike doing actual everything and playing a crappy 1/2, Retreat makes Batterskull pretty castable and it would remove more pressure form keeping Knight alive.

[anwei]

I played something close to the previous list last weekend and did poorly, both overall and without KWR in particular. One game went to time with triple Knight held off by TNN and Pyromancer tokens, as the most egregious example of "man, I wish I had tutorable over-the-top land options," but 2 other situations (mostly when planning a combo turn against a ~20 life opponent) made me wish I had it.

Interesting Japanese list (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD04424S/) with 4x Monastery Mentor. No obvious synergies besides on-color in a dork list, and 0 GSZ/4 Dork seems like it could be built upon to get to 3 mana quicker (not sure where), but I like that they keep testing stuff. I probably need to pick up Caverns.

[HSCK]

I've been looking at shells for Cavern based Brainstorm decks; I'll try that list out.

[Claymore]

Got a hot tip that this thread could be bumped.

Modern decks have been upgraded with Spell Queller and could probably integrate Sanctum Prelate. I could see something similar here. Anyone playing this deck still?

[anwei]

A new baby has meant that I play very, very unfrequently, and have typically stuck to more mainstream decks or other interesting brews to try to keep up with the meta, when I do.

I still think it's an interesting deck that deserves more attention and work than it's gotten.

My sense, of those cards, without testing them, is that they're unlikely to work well in my version. So many of the slots are fixed by the constraints of the archetype and synergistic design decisions that most of the flex slots have to fill in around them. The particular issues with those cards are: (a) the curve is high and manabase tight/weak, leaving the competition higher on the curve quite tight (with Knight+Jace somewhat fixed), (b) Knight is susceptible enough to the removal of many fair decks to prefer a harder-to-remove alternative threat, and (c) combo hate in the board is preferably tutorable, since GSZ and land-tutoring goes a long way in turning on bombs against the big match-ups (and meanwhile, "3" is not as much for this deck as most, but is still more than 2, particularly with 1-mana counters coming in from the board).

For maindeck threats, I think TNN really is the best backup threat, since it dodges Knight removal and makes good use of some other parts of the deck. Replacing with Queller is a hard sell (even though Queller can protect Knight from Decay sometimes).

I'd always considered a Maverick-ier build, closer to the Modern counterparts, to be pretty interesting, but never put much time into it. This would start with cutting Forces for Stoneforge, but Queller could make more sense there. I'd love to see anything you work on.

[anwei]

It looks like some "Bant Retreat" list made Day 2 of SCG Baltimore, which is the first I'd seen of this in a while. I'd love to know who did that and what they played.

[HSCK]

Saw that too, highly interested.

[anwei]

I meant to play SFM/DRS Bant at the GP, but (barely) made it to the 6pm Legacy Challenge in time, and audibled for Brave Sir Robin at the last second (almost literally - I voice-memo'd my list in the car and built my sideboard in 2 minutes, almost didn't make it).

I won the challenge, so I decided to play it at the main event, which I half-regret (I went 5-4, losing to DnT, 4C Delver, and Affinity(!), and scooping to BUG Delver at time). Despite dropping to 3 retreats, I still combo'd ~40% of my wins, not counting Depths.

**

I did make one of the sweetest possible combo plays, in a game 3 against Miracles that went to time, on turn 5. We go to turns while I have Retreat, Sylvan Library, and Noble Hierarch in play (K Grip and Sigarda in Hand) against Ensnaring Bridge and SDT, he's at 18 I think. On turn 3 I land a Knight, and he furiously cantrips on his turn and passes back. So on Turn 5 I untap with active Knight+Retreat+Hierarch against SDT+E Bridge.

I cast Meddling Mage, and he responds by flipping top to Miracle Terminus. I respond with a lengthy series of Knight activations and fetches. For the first couple, I would go (1) activate Knight for fetch (untap Knight), (2) fetch for basic (untap Hierarch), (3) tap new land + hierarch for +2 mana, repeat. After floating a few mana, I started using every other trigger (with Knight already untapped) to scry off retreat, but then I respond to my scry with another Knight activation. I repeated this process until I had 9 mana floating, 5 scrys on the stack, Horizon Canopy in play, and maybe 18 lands in the yard. I K Grip bridge, then resolve scrys one-at-a-time until I found FoW on top, crack Horizon Canopy to draw FoW, cast with the last 5 mana, and swing for 21.

**

The biggest change is the land toolbox (Depths instead of KWR, maindeck Crop Rotation, maindeck Maze). Playing Stage+Depths, especially with a Crop Rotation, gives me the ability to win in Knight vs. fair stuff standoffs much more elegantly (and quickly) than KWR does, and this turns out to come up often. Knight is a defensive beast, and being able to EOT tutor up an uncounterable kill is excellent.
The role of KWR has been to ensure that Knight is big enough to win through a few DRS activations or smaller grave hate, against small life gain (Batterskull, DRS, StP), against TNN, etc., and without going too all-in (i.e., killing my last real lands for wasteland and karakas and then wasting myself) to ensure 20.
Depths covers most of these categories well enough. Against unfair decks, I just go all-in and they typically can't disrupt me, so wasting myself is fine. Against most fair decks, I pass the turn with Knight combo, tap all their guys pre-combat their turn, make Marit Lage at their EOT, and win on my next turn. Against Miracles or decks with double removal (to beat Steppe) or single removal (if I don't begin comboing with a fetch in play), Depths can be slightly more resilient, as Knight can often (not always) put Depths on line before dying, and they need another answer for Marit Lage. The biggest downside is against decks where I don't want to go all-in immediately, but tapping their guys doesn't keep them from winning. Comboing against burn or even URx Delver is tough if I'm low on life, since I don't want all-in combo'ing to expose me to getting burned out, and I don't want to give them another turn, in which my main source of available disruption is tapping their guys. I can still just die to spells.

Overall, I was very happy with Depth and maindeck Crop Rotation, and will continue to use them if I play this deck again.

**

Notably, the main deck has 65 cards. I tested 75 for a while, and 68 for a while, and the 68-card list might be better.
This is probably because I'm a scrub.
My logic is: (a) Sticking to 60 is done to maximize your exposure to your best cards. I have effectively 3.7 Brainstorms, which sucks, but it's really the only spell I feel bad about losing some concentration of - the rest of the 4-offs are fine as <4, and I wouldn't play a 5th if I could.
(b) In a toolbox deck (GSZ, Rotation, Knight), I'm playing 1-off cards as tutor targets that I don't really want to draw in generic situations (Steppe, Depths, Pridemage, etc.). If I were playing a 100 card Knight deck, I'd only want 1 Sejiri Steppe, and could be even looser with my inclusion of toolbox targets (In 300, I'd have at least 1 maindeck Scavenging Ooze, Sylvan Ranger, Nephalia Drownyard, etc.). Larger deck sizes slightly (very slightly, at 65) counteract the disadvantage from toolboxing.
(c) If I need to combo and win on the spot, I need to reliably swing at least 20, maybe more, in case I've cast Swords or lost lands to DRS or natural-drawn enough duals to strand my fetches or one of many things has come up. That means I need to be able to bin 18 lands reliably, and I like to keep a fetch in play with a target left in the deck to get Steppe if they attempt mid-combo removal. Having 25 lands (9 Plains/Forest, 8 Fetch) lets me do this more reliably. Comboing from 3 lands should end with Depths/Stage activation, fetch in play (with 1 target+steppe in the deck), which normally makes Knight 19/19, which is right on the edge of safe. Going much lower can be problematic, and this manabase means >60 cards. (I should probably add at least a Tundra, maybe a 9th fetch, maybe a Plains.)

**

Lands (25)
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

Guys (15)
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor

Spells (25)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (15)
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 containment priest
2 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Krossan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

**

I don't have much time to play magic, and like trying other archetypes when I do get a chance, but I've continued to be pretty successful with this deck. I think it's better than the non-attention it gets, and is fun to play if you like toolbox decks. My record with it in sanctioned Legacy is now 41-12-3.

[HSCK]

Great report. I really like the way you broke down your thinking and some cool plays and it really enriches our community.

[thefringthing]

That you crushed a grinder with your own (updated) brew and didn't get your list in the coverage is a fucking war crime.

[Ezuri]

I've been starting of with this list for now. It's been playing quite fine.
I know I'm missing a lot of counter (FoW) due to the fact that I currently don't have the cards in my possession.
I tried MoM and Sylvan safe keeper without succes. Played 4 wastelands for a while but ended up with mana problems.

Land (25)
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, knight-errant

Creature (14)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Scryb ranger
1x Voice of Resurgence

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
2x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Chain of Vapor

Enchantment (4)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Sylvan Library

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

I'm currently thinking about fixing the lands (choosing between KWR + Taiga OR dark depths + stage instead of both).
Maybe adding a big creature in like Sigarda or Rafiq. Maybe add a crop rotation main deck.

Anyone experience with Soaring sea cliff instead of KWR?
Tips are most welcome!

[kinda]

I've been starting of with this list for now. It's been playing quite fine.
I know I'm missing a lot of counter (FoW) due to the fact that I currently don't have the cards in my possession.
I tried MoM and Sylvan safe keeper without succes. Played 4 wastelands for a while but ended up with mana problems.

Land (25)
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, knight-errant

Creature (14)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Scryb ranger
1x Voice of Resurgence

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
2x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Chain of Vapor

Enchantment (4)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Sylvan Library

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

I'm currently thinking about fixing the lands (choosing between KWR + Taiga OR dark depths + stage instead of both).
Maybe adding a big creature in like Sigarda or Rafiq. Maybe add a crop rotation main deck.

Anyone experience with Soaring sea cliff instead of KWR?
Tips are most welcome!

Kotr and retreat to coral helm combo is amazing.

[.Ix]

I'll be testing this deck for the new meta. The only thing I was worried about was instant speed Terminus while going off, and now that that's gone, I think this deck is positioned even better.

[anwei]

Miracles was definitely not a great match-up, and it could help. If Decay drops and Push takes its place, that does give Knight more play as well. Moreover, there seem to be 2 categories of decks with a lot of hype at the moment: strong decks that were held back by miracles now looking to capitalize on the power vacuum (especially Elves, also Blood Moon decks, Lands, and Storm), and formerly Tier 2 fair decks that were totally oppressed by Terminus (Maverick etc.). The latter camp, along side the rising grindy UBGx decks (Czech Pile, BUG Delver) are a great target for an midrange/combo deck that can go over the top of everything they're doing.

As before, though, the large number of removal spells floating around in the fair decks -- and Decay in particular -- leave Knight a bit vulnerable.

[.Ix]

With the 3 TNN in your list, I think the deck has a valid plan for playing straight through spot removal. If it really becomes a problem then maybe 4 TNN will be enough of a plan B, or a walker that keeps "making" guys like Nissa VF or Garruk Relentless.

[anwei]

Sure, TNN is strong at dodging things that Knight struggles with.

Overall, as I think about where I want to be, I love the idea of midrange-combo for the reasons mentioned, and Retreat and Natural Order are the contenders. At the moment, I think I prefer NO for (1) the strength of Leovold, DRS, and black disruption, (2) the relative vulnerability of Knight to removal in the most widely-played fair colors, (3) how much easier NO is to set up, and (4) the slow speed of the format, which is vulnerable to Progenitus.

[anwei]

Excerpted from Bant thread


I hope I'm in the right place to post this:
Is nobody playing a Bant list like this?

I've been starting of with this list for now. It's been playing quite fine.
I know I'm missing a lot of counter (FoW) due to the fact that I currently don't have the cards in my possession.
I tried MoM and Sylvan safe keeper without succes. Played 4 wastelands for a while but ended up with mana problems.

Land (25)
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
1x maze of ith
1x thespian stage
1x dark depths

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, knight-errant

Creature (10)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Vendillion Clique/Voice of resurgence


Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Spell snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Chain of Vapor

Enchantment (4)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Sylvan Library

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith


I'm currently thinking about fixing the lands (choosing between KWR + Taiga OR dark depths + stage instead of both).
Maybe adding a big creature in like Sigarda or Rafiq. Maybe add a crop rotation main deck.

Tips are most welcome!

Here're quick thoughts:
- Knight is a bit poorly positioned, since everything but RUG can kill her at a reasonable tempo cost to you, and she's pretty much your only threat. One of the big weaknesses of the deck is having Plan A Knight beats, Plan B Knight+Retreat, Plan C Knight Depths. You have lots of Knights, with GSZ, but if they keep killing them, Czech Pile will beat you to death with Strix before running out of removal. I originally ran Sigarda + 2 Clique main, and later went to Sigarda+TNN as my secondary beaters to blank all their removal, and Retreat+GSZ makes a T3 Sigarda if you think Knight is just going to die. I've played Rafiq as a fun-off, with TNN, but I don't think anything beats Sigarda at dodging what Knight is weak to.
- Definitely you don't want both land packages. Here's how to think of them: Knight+Retreat already wins the game, alone, with 2 lands and up to 6-7ish blockers. In particular, you can nearly always hit 20 damage against the combo decks of the format by ending the fetch chain by double-wasting them (or yourself) and never needing special lands. There are 2 main reasons to play one of them:
- First, if you have active Knight (without Retreat), and they don't have removal, you often win. But, KWR or Depths helps break ground stalls and accelerate your clock, especially against TNN. Depths is usually better at this in most board states (maybe 80/20), especially because if they don't have removal, you can use Steppe to push it through Strix or something. The main advantage of KWR is being 1 turn faster, if you can fetch out Taiga, in grindier games where the extra points of damage are enough.
- Second, if you have active Knight+Retreat, as above, you often win. However, sometimes you don't: if you're too low on life to use all your fetches, if they have active DRS or grave hate that has reduced your gy land count, if they've gained life from StP or Batterskull, or if they have TNN, they you want a reliable out, and both KWR and Depths usually beat all of these scenarios. KWR+Dork lets you get in for an extra 12 or so trample damage, which typically closes a gap and beats TNN. Depths lets you combo on their turn, tap down their whole team, and swing with 2 lethal-isn guys with Steppe backup. When this comes up, KWR is better (maybe 65/35), since you don't have to pass the turn. Passing the turn opens you up to un-tap-down-able threats (TNN or pro-blue (SoFI?)), DRS, and Burn. If you're that low on life, KWR is potentially constrained by your ability to fetch, but Depths definitely is. Incidentally, Depths is more resilient against instant-speed sweepers, but the SDT ban significantly reduced the importance of this.
- Third and smaller, naturally drawing KWR is better than Stage, but more often worse than drawing Depths+Stage. This is probably a wash.

Overall, I find that the first scenario (active Knight taking over, ideally with Depths) is much more common than the second (needing to get extra points, which may be needed ASAP, which therefore wants KWR), so I will be sticking to Depths. (And probably a maindeck Crop Rotation.)


@Anwei,

Thank you very much for the tips. I'm active on your thread aswel. Though there is very little discussion going on I gave this thread a shot.
How would you tweak my list? Sigarda, Elspeth, Rafiq, crop rotation, clique, drs etc are all in my possession. TNN is not.

So in your opinion Depths + stage > KWR + Taiga?

If you don't have TNN, I'd probably stick with Sigarda + 2 Cliques. Leovold may be worth it if you want to run 1-2 DRS as tutorable GY hate, and Depths is more forgiving of running DRS. I'd run Depths. You also need a few more blue cards for FoW (it's always tight). Maybe a pair of Ponders over Library and GSZ.

[Ezuri]

With your advice in mind I came up with this 62 card list


Land (24)
1# Dryad Arbor
2# Forest
1# Karakas
4# Misty Rainforest
1# Savannah
1# Sejiri Steppe
3# Tropical Island
2# Tundra
2# Wasteland
4# Windswept Heath
1# Maze of ith
1# Thespian’s stage
1# Dark Depths

Planeswalker (1)
1# Elspeth, Knight-errant

Creature (12)
1# Birds of Paradise
3# Noble Hierarch
4# Knight of the Reliquary
1# Qasali Pridemage
2# Vendillion Clique
1# Sigarda, Host of herons


Instant (17)
4# Swords to Plowshares
4# Brainstorm
4# Daze
2# Force of Will
2# Chain of Vapor
1# Crop Rotation

Enchantment (4)
3# Retreat to Coralhelm
1# Sylvan Library

Sorcery (4)
4# Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15)
1# Invasive surgery
2# Meddling mage
1# scavenging ooze
1# Gaddock Teeg
1# Bojuka Bog
2# Surgical extraction
1# Garruk relentless
1# Krosan Grip
1# Glacial Chasm
2# Choke
2# Pithing Needle


Took out the KWR + Taiga (you are right about the depths and the fact that Knight by itself usually means kill).
Added sigarda as a beater that dodges whatever kills knight.

Curious on your thoughts!

[Crouchsnap]

Played this list at a local event over the weekend.


Land (23)

1x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath

Creature (11)

1x Birds of Paradise
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Noble Hierarch
1x True-Name Nemesis

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
1x Crop Rotation
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (5)

4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Ponder

Planeswalker (1)

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantment (4)

3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)

1x Bojuka Bog
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Flusterstorm
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Life from the Loam
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Zealous Persecution

I liked the deck, played a Bant version of it to some success before the top banning, and miracles was easily the worst matchup so I figured I'd give it another shot. Borrowed the Dark Depths idea from here, I think it's probably better than Wolf-run in most cases, but if you're trying to combo against a TNN deck that knows what's up you'd have to save Sejiri Steppe to get through or hope to kill with Marit Lage.

Definitely regretting not playing the Sejiri Steppe, but I wanted to try Leo and TNN so I ended up playing a very awkward Underground Sea. I think I'll probably cut the TNN, with Stoneforge the other decks that play it are just better equipped (ha ha) to running it and it's just making my mana bad as a one of. I think the black is a necessary evil to play some number of sideboard answers to TNN, and the random Deathrite is handy sometimes.

Thinking something like:

- 1x True Name Nemesis
- 1x Leovold

+ 1x Tarmogoyf? (I wanted something with a decent body at 2CMC for GSZ a few times during the event, could also maindeck a pridemage)
+ 1x Blue Card; maybe Jace, used to play 2x maindeck.

-1x Underground Sea
+1x Sejiri Steppe

Maybe move Karakas to the SB for a Scrubland? I think only one black source might be a bit greedy, as the True name decks tend to play wasteland.

The deck feels like it could be pretty decent with some tuning though; Against fair decks you can randomly kill them with Knight/Retreat/Dark Depths, and with GSZ/Force/Daze/Crop Rotation you have pretty reasonable game against the combo decks. The only issue is that Knight dies to everything, but that's always been true, and it's possible that Decay will go down in value some with Counterbalance no longer being a thing. Regardless, the deck is fun, most folks don't know what to put me on, and it contains all of my favorite things to play in Legacy.

[HSCK]

I heard that some one Top 8'ed Quest for Power with this, I wonder if it's some one from here.

[anwei]

That's awesome - I'd love to see that.
I haven't played in over a year, but have been poking around since the bannings, and initially put NO Bant together as my Knight-deck combo of choice. I'm inclined to think that Progenitus doesn't have a lot of speed/removal predators, and 1 card has always been easier to find than 2. But 3 mana is a lot cheaper than 4, and I do love incentives to play 4 Knight...

[HSCK]

I think Pro will depend on how many players pick up Miracles and pack 4 Terminus in an era with a lot more Stifles.

[anwei]

Yea, this is definitely the point where having not played in a year makes the evaluation more difficult: I don't take that deck very seriously :)

[UnOrthodox Bird]

Has anybody played this or any variation lately? I am looking at another "fun" deck to pick up and play around with and this has been on my radar since I saw the deck tech in 2015.

[haganbmj]

Played this today in a Legacy monthly, using Crouchsnap's list as a starting point.

1x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath

1x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4x Brainstorm
1x Crop Rotation
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Ponder
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Path to Exile
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
2x Seal of Primordium
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


R1 2-1 vs Infect
R2 2-0 vs UR Delver
R3 2-1 vs Mono White Eldrazi
R4 2-0 vs BR Phoenix Reanimator
R5 ID vs UB Death's Shadow

Top 8 Split; Pairing was against Infect

Deck felt fine I suppose? Force is awkward, but maybe necessary. Sejiri Steppe is a requirement, makes lethal so easy.

[UnOrthodox Bird]

Nice! I'll be bringing a similar list to my weekly legacy tomorrow changing Leovold, Renegade Rallier, and 1 GSZ for 3x True-Name Nemesis. See how it goes.