Shadows Over Innistrad

[jrsthethird]

The new spring set was announced at GP Indianapolis this weekend. Two return blocks in a row? Interesting.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/shadows-over-innistrad-trailer

Good time for the Snapcaster promo, right?

[Koby]

it's becoming abundantly clear that WotC is not interested in developing new IP in its world building portfolio. this is corroborated by the shit art direction they have been having in the last few years. This is further corroborated by a drive for maximizing revenues from the corporate side of Hasbro.

That said, I will continue to shit on this set if Transform and/or Miracles makes a come back.

[thecrav]

it's becoming abundantly clear that WotC is not interested in developing new IP in its world building portfolio.

And MaRo says to expect about half of new blocks to be this same recycled stuff (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/132299453203/thank-you-for-going-back-to-innistrad-said#notes)

Thoughts I've compiled over the last 24 hours:

When Shadows of Innistrad comes out, 4 of the last 7 blocks will have been "return to" blocks.

This means that since WotC realized they could re-use IP (Scars of Mirrodin), over half of their new content was reused IP.

Time from original set to "return" set:
Mirrodin: 7y 2d
Ravnica: 7y 2d
Zendikar: 6y
Innistrad: ~4y 8m (exact release date not yet available)

Assuming that they're not returning to Domanaria, there's not a lot of blocks left to return to:
Kamigawa
Lorwyn
Alara
Theros
Tarkir

I suspect they'll do Lorwyn and Alara in that order because Kamigawa has a bit of negativity attached and it would seem really early for block-after-next to be Theros already.

[apple713]

I wish they'd redo Urza's block and rathe cycle. That might actually motivate me to play standard. The potential for good cards is huge.

[Julian23]

Return of Kamigawa almost sounds like an Un-set.

But yeah, I would love to see a return to specifically Mercadia. One of the most dense and amazing places, in a way similar to original Ravnica but with less quantity and more quality. It's true that the overall powerlevel was quite low but lorewise, that block was amazing.

[Barook]

Return of Kamigawa almost sounds like an Un-set.

But yeah, I would love to see a return to specifically Mercadia. One of the most dense and amazing places, in a way similar to original Ravnica but with less quantity and more quality. It's true that the overall powerlevel was quite low but lorewise, that block was amazing.
Mercardia? Not going to happen.

Mercadia almost killed Magic with its shittyness. I still hate it to this very day for making my friends quit back then due to its terrible power level. I only came back to MtG years later during Mirrodin after randomly looking up MtG on the internet and got hooked immediately again.

My issue with Return blocks is that they're all way lower powered than their original block while also lacking part of the charm of the original block by replacing it with new (but worse) mechanics. While RtR was still good, GTC and especially Dragon's Maze were complete shit and were sold on back of nostalgia, the popularity of the setting and shocklands. Same thing happened with BFZ now, except even worse.

Due to how bad BFZ was, my hype for SOI is currently zero.

[phonics]

I bet it will be what BFZ is to ZEN. Using nostalgia and hype to cover up shortcomings in an otherwise lackluster and uninspired set. And the worst part is people will eat this shit up.

[jrsthethird]

One thing I just thought of is that this might be another effect of their rushed transition to a two set block format. BFZ was notably impacted by this, and one of two things may have happened:

1. Shadows of Innostrad was slated to be the fall 2016 block (in the three set paradigm) and was bumped up 6 months to fill the gap.

2. Shadows of Innistrad was not planned until later in the future and the original block slated for fall 2016 remains the same. To fill the gap from the new two set paradigm, they went with what is probably the easiest world to return to. This allows them to spend more time on design and development of the set (probably a lot of top-down stuff that didn't make the first two sets was reusable), and significantly less time on creating and developing a new world.

I think #2 makes more sense and I don't think it will be as bad as BFZ given how they must realize that it wasn't as good as anyone expected.

[TsumiBand]

So, I guess, if the things about more cohesive storytelling are actually happening and they want to zero in on their walkers and their worlds, I guess it makes sense to see more revisited planes more often. Even if there were no planeswalkers in the scene, it's hard to express a story arc over multiple planes without something tying everything together. I mean people talk so fondly of the Brothers' War, and most of the good stuff there revolved around like two guys and the one plane. Why else would they kill Elspeth; she's sort of "from everywhere" and is generally pretty accidentally misanthropic, which is why they need Gideon to be more of the boring White Knighty one-dimensional bonehead. I guess. I don't read the books. Hell I'm lucky if I read the cards.

[Lemnear]

Yeah! Wooooo!

Nostalgia + shitty mechanics + low powerlevel + Fetches/Shocks/Duals/Power9/ExpensiveAsFuck as hilarious rare random additions as selling point = instant hit

Worked out several times for WotC.

[Julian23]

Just looked at the entire BFZ art for the first time and boy does it blow. It was THAT bad that I actually took 15 minutes out of my routine to let them know in the survey they put up for it:

http://surveys.marketpointsinc.com/surveys_0/wc1115gb8/Welcome.asp?pass=&src=2

If you feel the same, please let them know!

[Barook]

So, I guess, if the things about more cohesive storytelling are actually happening and they want to zero in on their walkers and their worlds, I guess it makes sense to see more revisited planes more often. Even if there were no planeswalkers in the scene, it's hard to express a story arc over multiple planes without something tying everything together. I mean people talk so fondly of the Brothers' War, and most of the good stuff there revolved around like two guys and the one plane. Why else would they kill Elspeth; she's sort of "from everywhere" and is generally pretty accidentally misanthropic, which is why they need Gideon to be more of the boring White Knighty one-dimensional bonehead. I guess. I don't read the books. Hell I'm lucky if I read the cards.
I still wonder what Nicol Bolas is up to, since his actions make no sense.

- Eldrazi unleashed? Bolas wins
- New Phyrexia? Bolas wins
- Other evil stuff happens somewhere in the Multiverse? Bolas wins

[Julian23]

Is he the Chuck Norris of Planeswalkers?

[apple713]

Mercardia? Not going to happen.

Mercadia almost killed Magic with its shittyness. I still hate it to this very day for making my friends quit back then due to its terrible power level. I only came back to MtG years later during Mirrodin after randomly looking up MtG on the internet and got hooked immediately again.


Due to how bad BFZ was, my hype for SOI is currently zero.

I think masque was probably ok for a set. The major issue it had was that it immediately followed the most powerful block in existence, Urza's block. Masques had some very decent cards. It had Misdirection, food chain, gush, Land grant, Nether Spirit, tower of the magistrate, unmask, and Rishadan port which are still big more than a decade later. Staples were reprinted like Brainstorm, counterspell, dark ritual.

Prophecy was a huge failure, due to a terrible mechanic. Nemesis, while not as powerful as masques, decent in power but not an exciting set. Nemesis included Daze, Moggcatcher, massacre, Tangle wire, and submerge. Several other have become used in EDH. If sets produced similar amounts of legacy usable cards we would be so lucky. Now days we are lucky to get 1-2 cards a set that are usable in legacy. Some sets have 0.

[meffeo]

Just looked at the entire BFZ art for the first time and boy does it blow. It was THAT bad that I actually took 15 minutes out of my routine to let them know in the survey they put up for it:

http://surveys.marketpointsinc.com/surveys_0/wc1115gb8/Welcome.asp?pass=&src=2

If you feel the same, please let them know!

Done. My votes were between marginal and fair, though some flavor texts are pretty sweet.

[TsumiBand]

Is he the Chuck Norris of Planeswalkers?

Nicol Bolas doesn't planeswalk; he roundhouse kicks the Multiverse and it rotates over to his destination.

Bolas's loyalty counters don't come off when he's damaged, but it doesn't matter because no one is stupid enough to attack him.

When Nicol Bolas grants you an emblem, it stays on after the game and into your everyday life.

Nicol Bolas never leaves the battlefield, instead all players leave the game and just pretend they're still playing while Bolas wins in the original game.

[menace13]

Yeah! Wooooo!

Nostalgia + shitty mechanics + low powerlevel + Fetches/Shocks/Duals/Power9/ExpensiveAsFuck as hilarious rare random additions as selling point = instant hit
It's almost like you work at WotC :laugh:

[Fox]

While RtR was still good, GTC and especially Dragon's Maze were complete shit and were sold on back of nostalgia, the popularity of the setting and shocklands. Same thing happened with BFZ now, except even worse.
Due to how bad BFZ was, my hype for SOI is currently zero.
I'm not sure if you play limited or not, but BFZ is actually a pretty decent set in terms of drafting enjoyment. It's not as crazy as 3x Khans and the archetypes are pushed a little too obviously, but for a set with almost no mid-game power and ridiculous eldrazi end-game, it's still enjoyable [certainly better than MM2, which was much of the same sans fun]. For those that draft, as long as sets rotate the limited skill-testing (khans, show creativity -> origins, show you understand eternal mana curve construction -> BFZ, show you can read signals), and WotC avoids the janky feel of mixing khans/FRF/DTK, this next set should be fine.
If you don't enjoy paying ~15 dollars for 3-4 hours of limited entertainment, there will be few new sets that'll ever get a positive review. Playing eternal, 93/94, powered cubes, or the occasional chaos draft are the most enjoyable forms of magic for sure; but when those aren't firing, limited [not sealed] is much more skill-testing than standard or modern, and certainly have more nuanced/legacy-like interactions (unless you're scrubbing out running red/white aggro). For me at least, as long as I can go to FNM, enjoy my time, and feel like there's actually an opportunity to get better at eternal magic, I'm gonna give that set a positive review (containing legacy playables is just a nice bonus).

The art, border, and flavor text issue is definitely something wizards should try to address though - ask yourself when's the last time MtG taught you how to use a new word like say Abeyance correctly in a sentence. I guess the lore stuff can be improved as well, but for me at least, the magic storyline begins with the Brother's War (mainly its aftermath, The Dark) and ends when the ice goes away (Alliances) - no real way to fix that one. :D

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Nicol Bolas doesn't planeswalk; he roundhouse kicks the Multiverse and it rotates over to his destination.

Bolas's loyalty counters don't come off when he's damaged, but it doesn't matter because no one is stupid enough to attack him.

When Nicol Bolas grants you an emblem, it stays on after the game and into your everyday life.

Nicol Bolas never leaves the battlefield, instead all players leave the game and just pretend they're still playing while Bolas wins in the original game.

http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Nicol_Bolas

Nicol Bolas doesn't die. Ever.

[GoblinSettler]

http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Nicol_Bolas

Nicol Bolas doesn't die. Ever.

And Nicol Bolas still finds the time to help mere mortals with programming questions on Stack Overflow (http://stackoverflow.com/users/734069/nicol-bolas).

[Aggro_zombies]

The Limited environment is about the only thing BFZ got right.

To a certain extent, though, BFZ's stinker Constructed presence isn't really its fault. For whatever reason, WotC really likes to ramp the power level in multicolor blocks. From one perspective, this makes sense: cards that are harder to cast should be more powerful to compensate for that. If the mana fixing were poor, this would present deckbuilders with interesting trade-offs and force them to make compromises that would keep overall power balanced between mono- and multi-color decks. However, Wizards insists on solving all these problems before they come up by shitting mana fixing out of their ears in multicolor blocks (something something players like when they can cast their spells), so you end up with a Standard environment where it's mostly just correct to jam the most powerful things you can and call it a day. That requires WotC to tone down the format by releasing a weak second block, but the result is that that block mostly just ends up being overshadowed by all the exciting shit around it. Theros suffered from this to an extent; it had to put a damper on Ravnica's multicolor madness, but then it had to serve as a buffer when Khans dropped and we were all expected to play two to three colors. Now it's BFZ's turn to sacrifice for the good of the smaller formats.

I have zero hope for Innistrad II for other reasons, though. WotC's "Return To" blocks have all been derivative garbage. They want so badly to recreate the first block so all the enfranchised players will be happy, but they can't because they picked all the lowest-hanging fruit when they made it the first time. Instead, they have to make sort-of-similar-but-generally-worse mechanics and a bunch of rehashed crap (to appeal to the established folks), but they'll retcon, redesign, or otherwise fiddle with art and plot from the last block to "fix" the things they decided they didn't like (so the new block feels just different enough). Then Sam Stoddard or whatever his name is will write a Latest Developments article saying that all the exciting shit from the first block is great and all but WotC thinks it's too powerful for Standard now so they added a bunch of mana to all the costs, made the removal worse, and decided not to reprint the stuff players actually want but to instead make similar but obviously inferior cards "inspired" by their predecessors.

Also, there will 100% be a RG Werewolf legendary. Commander players gripped incessantly about that not existing last time so they'll find a way to shoehorn it in this time.

[Barook]

The Limited environment is about the only thing BFZ got right.

To a certain extent, though, BFZ's stinker Constructed presence isn't really its fault. For whatever reason, WotC really likes to ramp the power level in multicolor blocks. From one perspective, this makes sense: cards that are harder to cast should be more powerful to compensate for that. If the mana fixing were poor, this would present deckbuilders with interesting trade-offs and force them to make compromises that would keep overall power balanced between mono- and multi-color decks. However, Wizards insists on solving all these problems before they come up by shitting mana fixing out of their ears in multicolor blocks (something something players like when they can cast their spells), so you end up with a Standard environment where it's mostly just correct to jam the most powerful things you can and call it a day. That requires WotC to tone down the format by releasing a weak second block, but the result is that that block mostly just ends up being overshadowed by all the exciting shit around it. Theros suffered from this to an extent; it had to put a damper on Ravnica's multicolor madness, but then it had to serve as a buffer when Khans dropped and we were all expected to play two to three colors. Now it's BFZ's turn to sacrifice for the good of the smaller formats.

I have zero hope for Innistrad II for other reasons, though. WotC's "Return To" blocks have all been derivative garbage. They want so badly to recreate the first block so all the enfranchised players will be happy, but they can't because they picked all the lowest-hanging fruit when they made it the first time. Instead, they have to make sort-of-similar-but-generally-worse mechanics and a bunch of rehashed crap (to appeal to the established folks), but they'll retcon, redesign, or otherwise fiddle with art and plot from the last block to "fix" the things they decided they didn't like (so the new block feels just different enough). Then Sam Stoddard or whatever his name is will write a Latest Developments article saying that all the exciting shit from the first block is great and all but WotC thinks it's too powerful for Standard now so they added a bunch of mana to all the costs, made the removal worse, and decided not to reprint the stuff players actually want but to instead make similar but obviously inferior cards "inspired" by their predecessors.

Also, there will 100% be a RG Werewolf legendary. Commander players gripped incessantly about that not existing last time so they'll find a way to shoehorn it in this time.
My feelings exactly.

I also wonder why Wizards decided to enable a duals + fetches manabases in Standard, even if it's just for 6 months, after years of stating that it would make Standard too expensive. And yet here we are. (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-most-expensive-standard-since-caw-blade)

BFZ is a stinker for many reasons, but they'll get off scot-free with the excuse of the 2-set blocks shift giving them trouble (and sales as far as Hasbro is concerned).

[Mr.C]

Probably going to suck. They'll have something shiny to drive sales like the expeditions. I also very likely won't bother drafting it.

Let me know when the sales are so low they revoke the Reserved List.

[Lemnear]

The Limited environment is about the only thing BFZ got right.

To a certain extent, though, BFZ's stinker Constructed presence isn't really its fault. For whatever reason, WotC really likes to ramp the power level in multicolor blocks. From one perspective, this makes sense: cards that are harder to cast should be more powerful to compensate for that. If the mana fixing were poor, this would present deckbuilders with interesting trade-offs and force them to make compromises that would keep overall power balanced between mono- and multi-color decks. However, Wizards insists on solving all these problems before they come up by shitting mana fixing out of their ears in multicolor blocks (something something players like when they can cast their spells), so you end up with a Standard environment where it's mostly just correct to jam the most powerful things you can and call it a day. That requires WotC to tone down the format by releasing a weak second block, but the result is that that block mostly just ends up being overshadowed by all the exciting shit around it. Theros suffered from this to an extent; it had to put a damper on Ravnica's multicolor madness, but then it had to serve as a buffer when Khans dropped and we were all expected to play two to three colors. Now it's BFZ's turn to sacrifice for the good of the smaller formats.

I have zero hope for Innistrad II for other reasons, though. WotC's "Return To" blocks have all been derivative garbage. They want so badly to recreate the first block so all the enfranchised players will be happy, but they can't because they picked all the lowest-hanging fruit when they made it the first time. Instead, they have to make sort-of-similar-but-generally-worse mechanics and a bunch of rehashed crap (to appeal to the established folks), but they'll retcon, redesign, or otherwise fiddle with art and plot from the last block to "fix" the things they decided they didn't like (so the new block feels just different enough). Then Sam Stoddard or whatever his name is will write a Latest Developments article saying that all the exciting shit from the first block is great and all but WotC thinks it's too powerful for Standard now so they added a bunch of mana to all the costs, made the removal worse, and decided not to reprint the stuff players actually want but to instead make similar but obviously inferior cards "inspired" by their predecessors.

Also, there will 100% be a RG Werewolf legendary. Commander players gripped incessantly about that not existing last time so they'll find a way to shoehorn it in this time.

I make it simple: Thanks for writing this

It would make sense to return to planes and continue the story (like Mirrodin) if there was actually something interresting left to tell after three expansions released, but there is not in cases like Ravnica or likely Innistrad. What is left here? The battle of Acacyn vs. Griselbrand with some of the pale, generic, white Planeswalkers popping up to save the day?

Honestly, can WotC kill off Gideon? Everytime I see his image or name pop up in an announcement I can only think of this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cZ7ndjhhps)

P.S.: where did Emrakul and Kozilek head to? I bet we see the plane pretty soon

[Barook]

I make it simple: Thanks for writing this

It would make sense to return to planes and continue the story (like Mirrodin) if there was actually something interresting left to tell after three expansions released, but there is not in cases like Ravnica or likely Innistrad. What is left here? The battle of Acacyn vs. Griselbrand with some of the pale, generic, white Planeswalkers popping up to save the day?

Honestly, can WotC kill off Gideon? Everytime I see his image or name pop up in an announcement I can only think of this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cZ7ndjhhps)

P.S.: where did Emrakul and Kozilek head to? I bet we see the plane pretty soon
- Plot is probably going to be "Hurr, Avacyn is now evil, deal with it!" and then the entire plane going to shit. RTR plot was pretty bad. "Run this Maze to bring the Guildpact back. Also, Supreme Verdict nukes, just because. Oh, and Jace is now the Living Guildpact, yet he wanders off to wherever the fuck he pleases, because fuck you, Ravnica."

- They killed of Elspeth like a bitch. I would never say never, but Ajani is the only other white walker left and it's harder to identify with some cat dude.

- Kozilek probably still has connections to Zendikar - at least there are his spawns preparing something.

- Eldrazi vs New Phyrexia is something that is bound to happen at some point since people really want to see it.

[Sylphnir]

The battle of Acacyn vs. Griselbrand with some of the pale, generic, white Planeswalkers popping up to save the day?
Griselbrand is dead. He survived like 5 minutes of being freed and then got slaughtered by Liliana in AVR.
Which is why her (likely) presence in this block makes almost no sense - she has no business being there anymore.

[Lemnear]

Griselbrand is dead. He survived like 5 minutes of being freed and then got slaughtered by Liliana in AVR.
Which is why her (likely) presence in this block makes almost no sense - she has no business being there anymore.

Thanks for getting me back on track. I guess Barooks scenario of an evil Avacyn is then the most likely scenario unless the vampires claim dominance of the plain and Avacyn wipes them in the upcoming block. I don't have any interrest in that world anymore. WotC sucked all the blood from it already, so the return to that plane roots on the artwork/Werwolves/Vampires/FlipCards?

Will I get decent cards with Fateful Hour? Will the most memorable cards in a Dark/Gothic/Vampire/Monster block again be WHITE? Tune in for the next episode of "How to turn MtG into Call of Duty!"

[Barook]

I guess Barooks scenario of an evil Avacyn is then the most likely scenario unless the vampires claim dominance of the plain and Avacyn wipes them in the upcoming block. I don't have any interrest in that world anymore. WotC sucked all the blood from it already, so the return to that plane roots on the artwork/Werwolves/Vampires/FlipCards?
No side can gain dominance as Sorin created Avacyn as a fail-safe system, so neither side can get the upper hand. She always scales with the power of her enemies. That's why she wiped the floor with anyone in Avacyn Restored because everything has gone to hell and she had to fix it with overwhelming power. But due to power scaling, she will never be able to wipe out the vampires, thus just being a protector for the vampire's food source, the humans.

That's why her getting corrupted is the most likely outcome to create a new threat since she prevents all other threats from being interesting otherwise.

Writing this made me realize: How would she scale if an Eldrazi invasion happened? :eyebrow:

[Lemnear]

No side can gain dominance as Sorin created Avacyn as a fail-safe system, so neither side can get the upper hand. She always scales with the power of her enemies. That's why she wiped the floor with anyone in Avacyn Restored because everything has gone to hell and she had to fix it with overwhelming power. But due to power scaling, she will never be able to wipe out the vampires, thus just being a protector for the vampire's food source, the humans.

That's why her getting corrupted is the most likely outcome to create a new threat since she prevents all other threats from being interesting otherwise.

Writing this made me realize: How would she scale if an Eldrazi invasion happened? :eyebrow:

Reading this makes me cringe. It should be far above Sorins power to create Avacyn that way. Its totally ridiculous. Is she plane-bound or why not drag her around the multiverse and throw her at the Eldrazi and Bolas then?

[Zombie]

He created her when he was still an oldwalker and closer to a god than a random sorcerer.

[H]

Mercardia? Not going to happen.

Mercadia almost killed Magic with its shittyness. I still hate it to this very day for making my friends quit back then due to its terrible power level. I only came back to MtG years later during Mirrodin after randomly looking up MtG on the internet and got hooked immediately again.

How is the power level the setting's fault though?

Mercardia is a pretty interesting setting, it just got saddled with the onus of "taking one for the team" to drop off the unsustainable power level of the Urza's Block. In reality, Masques and Nemesis are pretty decent sets, even looking at them through today's development. Prophecy is an unmitigated disaster of a set and really puts a terrible close to the whole block. All things considered, I think there is a serious argument that Prophecy is the worst Magic set ever made.

On Kamigawa, can anyone explain to me why nearly everyone hates it so much? Mind you, I'm not being cheeky, that is a serious question, I wasn't playing at the time (I stopped at Odyssey and returned with Guildpact). Looking back there is tons of interesting cards (sure, not high-power level, with the obvious exception of Top and Jitte) and what little of the story I pick up from random flavor text seems pretty reasonable (better than most new sets).

On the return to Innistrad, well, the power level is going to be incredibly low, so I'm not expecting much. I really doubt even Miracles will be back, honestly. I think DFCs and perhaps Undying will be back though.

[iamajellydonut]

On Kamigawa, can anyone explain to me why nearly everyone hates it so much? Mind you, I'm not being cheeky, that is a serious question, I wasn't playing at the time (I stopped at Odyssey and returned with Guildpact). Looking back there is tons of interesting cards (sure, not high-power level, with the obvious exception of Top and Jitte) and what little of the story I pick up from random flavor text seems pretty reasonable (better than most new sets).

"Japan" is a pretty hit-or-miss theme, none of the mechanics work outside of the block, and it was flanked by Mirrodin and Ravnica.

Kamigawa was honestly pretty fun to play, but I'm not a fan of Japan and it's even more forgettable than Masques* otherwise.

*That's not to say that Masques is actually forgettable. A quick scroll through magiccards.info will show you all it's done for the game, and it sure as hell puts down anything else in the last ten years.

[H]

"Japan" is a pretty hit-or-miss theme, none of the mechanics work outside of the block, and it was flanked by Mirrodin and Ravnica.

Kamigawa was honestly pretty fun to play, but I'm not a fan of Japan and it's even more forgettable than Masques otherwise.

I think that is pretty fair criticism. The thinking of those sets, it really had zero synergy with Mirrodin. I think there was some synergy with Ravnica, but the actually powerful cards in Ravnica were so much better than any minor advantage you had from having some Spirits in your deck. The whole Arcane nonsense was just a bad idea really, no way around that.

To me, bad design doesn't mean it's a bad setting though. Bad design is just bad design.

[Admiral_Arzar]

On Kamigawa, can anyone explain to me why nearly everyone hates it so much? Mind you, I'm not being cheeky, that is a serious question, I wasn't playing at the time (I stopped at Odyssey and returned with Guildpact). Looking back there is tons of interesting cards (sure, not high-power level, with the obvious exception of Top and Jitte) and what little of the story I pick up from random flavor text seems pretty reasonable (better than most new sets).


The post above mentioned the "Japan" flavor, which was definitely part of it. Personally, I remember considering the set as basically WOTC jumping onto the "Japan" bandwagon - Yugioh, Anime, etc. were getting really big at the time and I felt the timing was pretty cynical to do a Japan-themed set. It stunk of cash grab.

The other factor was the Mercadian Masques factor - Kamigawa followed by far the most powerful block since Urza (Mirrodin). While Kamigawa had a handful of busted cards, the power level between the non-busted cards in both blocks was incredibly skewed in favor of Mirrodin. Thus it took a massive round-robin of bannings to even allow Kamigawa cards to see play in standard. Also, unlike Masques, the Kamigawa mechanics were extremely insular - they had zero synergy with Mirrodian and very little with Ravnica (or any other sets for that matter, the only real synergy I can think of is Changeling cards as explored in MM2015).

[Tylert]

The post above mentioned the "Japan" flavor, which was definitely part of it. Personally, I remember considering the set as basically WOTC jumping onto the "Japan" bandwagon - Yugioh, Anime, etc.

You forgot that at that time the other collectible card game was Legend of the 5 rings (Fantasy japan theme) which was (and still is) a very good CCG.
There's a strong probability that this is related to the theme of the kamigawa block :)

[apple713]

The post above mentioned the "Japan" flavor, which was definitely part of it. Personally, I remember considering the set as basically WOTC jumping onto the "Japan" bandwagon - Yugioh, Anime, etc. were getting really big at the time and I felt the timing was pretty cynical to do a Japan-themed set. It stunk of cash grab.


Uhh i don't think the japan theme had anything to do with it. I'm sure there are plenty of people that play mtg that are not into zombies, vampires, and werewolves that played innistrad.

Kamigawa sucked because of the mechanics. Soul shift was and still is bad and same with arcane. The legends that were high costed were never really on par with ones that currently existed. It didn't help that it was surrounded by good blocks either.

[iamajellydonut]

Uhh i don't think the japan theme had anything to do with it. I'm sure there are plenty of people that play mtg that are not into zombies, vampires, and werewolves that played innistrad.

Japan, factually, had a lot to do with it.

[apple713]

Japan, factually, had a lot to do with it.

factually? as in lore?

Theres no way we'd be having this conversation if urza's block had a japan theme because the mechanics were amazing and the cards were powerful.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Uhh i don't think the japan theme had anything to do with it. I'm sure there are plenty of people that play mtg that are not into zombies, vampires, and werewolves that played innistrad.

Kamigawa sucked because of the mechanics. Soul shift was and still is bad and same with arcane. The legends that were high costed were never really on par with ones that currently existed. It didn't help that it was surrounded by good blocks either.

The Japan theme personally annoyed me at the time. Anecdotal evidence, but still evidence.


Japan, factually, had a lot to do with it.

Hahahaha

[maharis]

The Limited environment is about the only thing BFZ got right.


I'm not sure if you play limited or not, but BFZ is actually a pretty decent set in terms of drafting enjoyment. ... If you don't enjoy paying ~15 dollars for 3-4 hours of limited entertainment, there will be few new sets that'll ever get a positive review.

This is all by design. Wizards' future vision of the game is clearly one that revolves around drafting/limited. It makes sense: It drives the most pack sales and is the easiest to balance.

If you see MTG as a limited game first and constructed second, a lot of what's happening makes sense: the switch to two-set blocks, the generally positive reviews of limited gameplay, the way cards are costed, the choice of rarity, new approaches to removal.

Anecdotally, I've seen Standard players start to gripe about the homogenization of that format and the absence of interesting build-around cards for it.

I cannot see this kind of game captivating players the way it did for many of us. The sweet spot for being able to keep up with the skills and format knowledge required for drafting, not to mention the time commitment, is far shorter than for constructed. Wizards likes to tout their 9-year retention rate, but I can't imagine there's a big section of the population that is up for 9 years of a limited-first game. Brewing is one of the most fun parts of the game and if the incentive to do that is removed, why stick around?

I didn't play during the first Ravnica, but when I returned to the game I read a lot about it and checked out the card pool and it seemed like a really great set with interesting decks and strategies. When RTR was announced I had very high hopes to experience that. And while RTR itself was fairly evocative and powerful.... Gatecrash was the opposite (removing the "cant be countered" cycle in favor of the Primordials was such a bummer for anyone who wanted to see what each color combination would get to do with that mechanic). Dragon's Maze was worse. And on top of a generally boring card pool, the Eastern European influence on the flavor was nearly completely absent in favor of the Lorwalker-driven story.

Theros block had plenty of interesting cards, but they were clearly costed for limited and that standard was notoriously boring. KTK was better, but whiffed on quite a lot as well, and its key mechanic, Morph, is simply not a constructed mechanic in any format outside a Standard that by design lacks efficient removal. (And we saw the outcome of that with those horrifically boring Mastery of the Unseen mirrors). I bought a lot of packs of original Zendikar after my return and hoped that BFZ would deliver a new angle on the game like that set did. Instead, we got, well, BFZ.

I'm not trying to just be a complainer/downer and I will hope for Innistrad II to deliver interesting and fun cards right up until the full spoiler is put out. I'm pessimistic, however.

[H]

Japan, factually, had a lot to do with it.

Still funny after all these years.


This is all by design. Wizards' future vision of the game is clearly one that revolves around drafting/limited. It makes sense: It drives the most pack sales and is the easiest to balance.

If you see MTG as a limited game first and constructed second, a lot of what's happening makes sense: the switch to two-set blocks, the generally positive reviews of limited gameplay, the way cards are costed, the choice of rarity, new approaches to removal.

Completely agree. I think it's Wizards cop-out on power-creep really, as well. Think about it, why make things that are new and challenging to develop, when can remix/rehash what you've already done and still have it sell like hot-cakes?

[Aggro_zombies]

How is the power level the setting's fault though?
It's not. However, there will be plenty of players who will associate the setting with the low power level. They need people to be hyped for these things, and, "Hey, we're going back to that plane that had one set in a block that almost killed Magic until Invasion rescued it!" is just not the reaction they want. It's the same reason we won't ever visit Ulgrotha, the plane featured in Homelands, because it's strongly associated with the set conventional wisdom holds to be the worst set in Magic.

There's just no reward to R&D for attempting to redeem weak planes instead of just going back to a place that focus testing and player surveys showed was popular.

EDIT:

...likely Innistrad. What is left here?
There's some storyline fan speculation right now that some of the following may be true:

1) Sorin made Avacyn by essentially enslaving Nahiri, and that he's going to release her from that as part of Ugin's call to reunite the original anti-Eldrazi gang;

2) Emrakul made a beeline for Innistrad and, as the Titan of Corruption, is starting to slowly mutate the denizens of Innistrad into something strange and sinister - starting with Avacyn.

I'm not sure I buy either of those as being particularly likely, but of the two I think the Emrakul one is something they'd actually do. It would help keep the plot focus on the Eldrazi saga unfolding and give Sorin a reason to return to Innistrad, since Liliana's story arc is done there and Garruk presumably left after she did. It's also possible that Edgar Markov, the original Innistrad-ian vampire, has finally figured out some way to co-opt Avacyn, and that brings Sorin back for a confrontation with his father.

But whatever, Magic story is basically on the level of a Saturday morning cartoon, so it doesn't matter.

[Richard Cheese]

Well this is especially shitty news. Innistrad block was already garbage flavor-wise, and it was the block that gave us double-faced cards, Snapcaster, Griselbrand, and the Miracle mechanic. Can't wait to see where this goes!

[H]

It's not. However, there will be plenty of players who will associate the setting with the low power level. They need people to be hyped for these things, and, "Hey, we're going back to that plane that had one set in a block that almost killed Magic until Invasion rescued it!" is just not the reaction they want. It's the same reason we won't ever visit Ulgrotha, the plane featured in Homelands, because it's strongly associated with the set conventional wisdom holds to be the worst set in Magic.

There's just no reward to R&D for attempting to redeem weak planes instead of just going back to a place that focus testing and player surveys showed was popular.

I get that. It's stupid and short-sighted because there are a heck of a lot of great things about some of the "weak planes" that Development got tossed out with the bathwater due to power-level, but I get it. I was just commenting that a more "enlightened" view of Masques (and to a lesser extent, Kamigawa) was probably more level-headed, since lets not pretend that most of us who come here and post are not "average Magic players" at least as far as we've been playing the game much longer than most. I fully understand that the ship sailed on those settings because of meta-game reasons, I'm just saying that's rather unfair, in my opinion.

[Darkenslight]

I get that. It's stupid and short-sighted because there are a heck of a lot of great things about some of the "weak planes" that Development got tossed out with the bathwater due to power-level, but I get it. I was just commenting that a more "enlightened" view of Masques (and to a lesser extent, Kamigawa) was probably more level-headed, since lets not pretend that most of us who come here and post are not "average Magic players" at least as far as we've been playing the game much longer than most. I fully understand that the ship sailed on those settings because of meta-game reasons, I'm just saying that's rather unfair, in my opinion.

Masques is set on Dominaria post-Rath merging. I would love to see a set based around trading one resource for another set in Mercadia. Or a set based on the lore in Kamigawa (which i believe to be the block after Innistrad.)

[jrsthethird]

Mercardia is a pretty interesting setting, it just got saddled with the onus of "taking one for the team" to drop off the unsustainable power level of the Urza's Block. In reality, Masques and Nemesis are pretty decent sets, even looking at them through today's development.

I wasn't playing much during Masques, so I'm not too familiar with story points, but the plane definitely sounds like a great place to revisit. Games like Settlers of Catan are pretty popular now so visiting a land that's very focused on buying and trading resources can strike a chord with some people that might not be as interested in the fantasy component.


Prophecy is an unmitigated disaster of a set and really puts a terrible close to the whole block. All things considered, I think there is a serious argument that Prophecy is the worst Magic set ever made.

Homelands is the only competition, and it has the benefit that they still didn't know what the fuck they were doing in 95.


I cannot see this kind of game captivating players the way it did for many of us. The sweet spot for being able to keep up with the skills and format knowledge required for drafting, not to mention the time commitment, is far shorter than for constructed. Wizards likes to tout their 9-year retention rate, but I can't imagine there's a big section of the population that is up for 9 years of a limited-first game. Brewing is one of the most fun parts of the game and if the incentive to do that is removed, why stick around?

From several recent accounts, Modern seems to be pretty wide-open and friendly to new brews (moreso than blue-ridden Legacy or 4-color goodstuff Standard). I actually had a thought a couple days ago that Wizards should bring back Extended (not in the shitty 4-year version we last had), but as a rotating format with the past 7 blocks like the old days. That gives us BFZ, Khans, Theros, Innistrad, Scars, Zendikar, and Shards. Still a pretty wide selection of sets but the rotation means that we get a refresher every year. Ex. with fall 2016, Shards rotates out, taking all the Cascade-based decks with it. Not to mention, you already cut out all the combos or decks that hinge on older cards (Affinity, Dredge, Tarmogoyf, Merfolk, etc.).

Without a rotation schedule, Modern has already gotten to the point where people are turned off by the price of entry, but what do you do with your Devotion deck that's no good in Standard anymore? There's a power-creep intrinsic to the format; the one caveat is that they aren't burdened with a Reserved List, so reprinting cards to support the format is possible. Unfortunately, we've seen that reprints don't make deck prices cheaper, as the non-reprinted cards spike anyway. When Modern is 20 years worth of cards and Standard is 18 months, what do you do with the in-between?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

From what Ive heard, players that quit during Kamigawa did so because of the overabundannce of Legendary permanents

http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28t%3A%22legendary+artifact+creature%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+artifact%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+artifact+equipment%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+land%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+creature%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment+aura%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment+shrine%22%29+%28e%3Asok%2Fen+or+e%3Abok%2Fen+or+e%3Achk%2Fen%29&v=card&s=cname

[Barook]

When Modern is 20 years worth of cards and Standard is 18 months, what do you do with the in-between?
Obviously create another format to fill the gap while dropping support for Modern. Call it "Mega Modern" or whatever. That's how Wizards rolls. They already hardly try to give a shit about Modern now (remember, they tried to drop it from the PT already and don't test for Modern) and only keep it around to milk it some more.


From what Ive heard, players that quit during Kamigawa did so because of the overabundannce of Legendary permanents

http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28t%3A%22legendary+artifact+creature%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+artifact%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+artifact+equipment%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+land%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+creature%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment+aura%22+or+t%3A%22legendary+enchantment+shrine%22%29+%28e%3Asok%2Fen+or+e%3Abok%2Fen+or+e%3Achk%2Fen%29&v=card&s=cname
Why would you quit because of legendary permanents instead of the abyssal powerlevel?

[Aggro_zombies]

Masques is set on Dominaria post-Rath merging. I would love to see a set based around trading one resource for another set in Mercadia. Or a set based on the lore in Kamigawa (which i believe to be the block after Innistrad.)
Mercadia isn't on Dominaria. Rath merged with Dominaria, but Mercadia never did. It's still a separate entity as far as we know.

My guess is they keep calling back to Kamigawa (as with the new Commander product) because it's in Modern, so players may have a passing familiarity with it because of stuff like Through the Breach, Tribe Elder, and Goryo's Vengeance. Mercadia doesn't have that benefit and, additionally, most of the interesting aspects of the plane were "solved" when the Weatherlight was there or shortly after. The government of the Magistrate was propped up by the goblins and, behind them, a forward Phyrexian outpost. The old Phyrexians don't exist anymore and (as far as we know) the Cho-Arrim toppled the Mercadian government. The powerful artifacts of the plane - the Power Matrix and the body parts of Ramos - were hoovered up by the Weatherlight as part of the quest to complete the Legacy and defeat Yawgmoth. There isn't really anything else to do there and they haven't created any tie-ins with the current storyline - unlike Kamigawa, which has Tamiyo on Innistrad, conveniently for our next block.

Ulgrotha (Homelands) is in the same position as Mercadia. Its story is done and there's no known hooks for the plane.

[Barook]

Mercadia isn't on Dominaria. Rath merged with Dominaria, but Mercadia never did. It's still a separate entity as far as we know.

My guess is they keep calling back to Kamigawa (as with the new Commander product) because it's in Modern, so players may have a passing familiarity with it because of stuff like Through the Breach, Tribe Elder, and Goryo's Vengeance. Mercadia doesn't have that benefit and, additionally, most of the interesting aspects of the plane were "solved" when the Weatherlight was there or shortly after. The government of the Magistrate was propped up by the goblins and, behind them, a forward Phyrexian outpost. The old Phyrexians don't exist anymore and (as far as we know) the Cho-Arrim toppled the Mercadian government. The powerful artifacts of the plane - the Power Matrix and the body parts of Ramos - were hoovered up by the Weatherlight as part of the quest to complete the Legacy and defeat Yawgmoth. There isn't really anything else to do there and they haven't created any tie-ins with the current storyline - unlike Kamigawa, which has Tamiyo on Innistrad, conveniently for our next block.

Ulgrotha (Homelands) is in the same position as Mercadia. Its story is done and there's no known hooks for the plane.
Having sequel hooks doesn't mean that they aren't going to asspull another story.

Ravnica - was pretty much resolved
Time Spiral - rifts closed, Multiverse saved
Lorwyn -IIRC, Oona was killed, Great Aurora still happens, although at a normal rate again
Alara - Shards merged, no idea what else happened
Zendikar - left with Eldrazi wrecking shit left and right, good sequel hook
Scars of Mirrodin - Phyrexia won, prepares to invade other planes again once they know how to, good sequel hook
Innistrad: Avacyn pushed back the bad guys and solved the werewolf issue while Liliana wrecked Griselbrand - no good sequel hooks here
Return to Ravnica: "There must always be a Lich Kin- I mean Guildpact" - terrible storyline, and the main sequel hook is Jace being a dick going on jolly adventures while being the Living Guildpact
Theros: Party God is dead, and so is Elspeth - main sequel hook here is rescuing Elspeth and getting revenge on Heliod for being a asshole
Tarkir: Dragons returned, Sarkhan is happy - no good sequel hooks here unless they go for unfucking the timeline (not impossible, considering how popular the Clans are compared to their shitty dragons counterparts)

[CorwinB]

Shadows over Innistrad ? While flabbergasted at WotC ongoing creative bankruptcy, my default position is "cautious optimism" (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/01/a-waste-sensation). :tongue:

[rufus]

I get that. It's stupid and short-sighted because there are a heck of a lot of great things about some of the "weak planes" that Development got tossed out with the bathwater due to power-level, but I get it. ....

That's a little telling: If they've really figured out how to make 'good sets' why don't they go back and fix the bad ones?

[joven]

Return to Innistrad? Already?? Wtf? Yet another Return-Block?
Oh no, not double faced cards again! :eek:


Griselbrand is dead. He survived like 5 minutes of being freed and then got slaughtered by Liliana in AVR.
Which is why her (likely) presence in this block makes almost no sense - she has no business being there anymore.

Maybe another one of the other three of her demons came to Innistrad for some reason ... and gets squashed by Liliana in the end.

Or Liliana wants to make herself comfortable on Innistrad and Sorin/Avacyn opposes.


I just hope WotC found a way to reprint Liliana of the Veil (in this Standard legal set).

[thecrav]

That's a little telling: If they've really figured out how to make 'good sets' why don't they go back and fix the bad ones?

It's hard to build hype for a return to a product that sucked. It's probably even harder when your target customers don't know why it sucked but have heard nothing about it other than "it sucked."

Returning to a block that sucked is a gamble. You'll only sell lots of packs instead of, like we hear every set, selling more than any set ever. Returning to a block that everyone loved is nearly a sure thing. The return sets so far have been worse than their original sets but they've all sold great.

[apple713]

IDK what all the hate is about. Innistrad block brought a lot to legacy. In fact it changed the format entirely... Lets consider


Delver of Secrets
Liliana of the Veil
Cavern of Souls
Craterhoof Behemoth
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Grafdigger's Cage
Past in Flames
Snapcaster Mage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Griselbrand

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

IDK what all the hate is about. Innistrad block brought a lot to legacy. In fact it changed the format entirely... Lets consider


Delver of Secrets
Liliana of the Veil
Cavern of Souls
Craterhoof Behemoth
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Grafdigger's Cage
Past in Flames
Snapcaster Mage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Griselbrand


A good chunk of those are some of the most hated cards in the format, yes they changed legacy, but read the R&D thread for a bit and witness the amount of frothing at the mouth rage cards like Delver, Terminus and Griselbrand have inspired.

[Lemnear]

IDK what all the hate is about. Innistrad block brought a lot to legacy. In fact it changed the format entirely... Lets consider


Delver of Secrets
Liliana of the Veil
Cavern of Souls
Craterhoof Behemoth
Terminus
Entreat the Angels
Grafdigger's Cage
Past in Flames
Snapcaster Mage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Griselbrand


Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top. (hyperboles ahead)

S&T -> win
NO -> win
T1 Delver -> win
Don't play counter -> lose
Playing Aggro -> lose

[Barook]

A good chunk of those are some of the most hated cards in the format, yes they changed legacy, but read the R&D thread for a bit and witness the amount of frothing at the mouth rage cards like Delver, Terminus and Griselbrand have inspired.
This

Innistrad was starting point where Legacy was ruined - and it's the main culprit.

[Zombie]

I'd assign a bit of blame to Scars and Zendikar as well, if for nothing else than giving us Emrakul and Jin-Gitaxias. It's amazing, btw, how Jin-Gitaxias revolutionized cheat a fatty decks and then became utterly unplayed overnight. Says a lot about how broken Griseltard is.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Karakas makes emrakul bearable imo, you still have to attack, griselbrand means that it's still U2, pay 7 life: draw 7

[Lord Seth]

Homelands is the only competition, and it has the benefit that they still didn't know what the fuck they were doing in 95.If we're talking power level I agree, but I think in just how well a set is put together I'd rate Legends as the worst. There’s no synergy or theme to it other than legends (which is made irrelevant due to there being so many of them), and it’s home to some of the worst cards ever printed. Sure, maybe Prophecy and Homelands had a low power level, but even the worst cards in those sets are better than Wood Elemental or Great Wall. I just get the feeling that they didn't even read a lot of the cards in Legends.


From several recent accounts, Modern seems to be pretty wide-open and friendly to new brews (moreso than blue-ridden Legacy or 4-color goodstuff Standard). I actually had a thought a couple days ago that Wizards should bring back Extended (not in the shitty 4-year version we last had), but as a rotating format with the past 7 blocks like the old days. That gives us BFZ, Khans, Theros, Innistrad, Scars, Zendikar, and Shards. Still a pretty wide selection of sets but the rotation means that we get a refresher every year. Ex. with fall 2016, Shards rotates out, taking all the Cascade-based decks with it. Not to mention, you already cut out all the combos or decks that hinge on older cards (Affinity, Dredge, Tarmogoyf, Merfolk, etc.).Congratulations, you just identified one of the reasons Extended wasn't popular. People will put up with rotation in Standard but it's obviously not something they want in their larger formats. I mean, the whole reason they tried to move to that 4-year version was because Extended wasn't popular and it was an attempt to fix it. It obviously didn't work and if anything made the situation worse, but it's not like Extended was that popular beforehand.

I've seen people try to posit this idea of bringing back Extended, but it's hard to see what's changed in the intervening years to make it any more popular than it was before.


Without a rotation schedule, Modern has already gotten to the point where people are turned off by the price of entry, but what do you do with your Devotion deck that's no good in Standard anymore?Probably not much more in 7-year Extended than you can in Modern. Indeed, that's a big reason why they tried the 4 year thing, the hope was that it would make it a more "friendly" transition for Standard players so their decks could work better, as there really wasn't much of that going on between Standard and Extended.


There's a power-creep intrinsic to the format; the one caveat is that they aren't burdened with a Reserved List, so reprinting cards to support the format is possible. Unfortunately, we've seen that reprints don't make deck prices cheaper, as the non-reprinted cards spike anyway. When Modern is 20 years worth of cards and Standard is 18 months, what do you do with the in-between?The funny thing is, that scenario you posted? Is very similar to what was going on when they made the decision to cut down Extended's time frame. At that time, Legacy had 17 years, not quite 20 but close. And how well was Extended, which was supposed to be the in-between, doing? Well...

"One of the things we noticed was that the Extended format was not doing very well. The Pro Tour Qualifier round we run every year in Extended is the lowest attended, it does not do very well on Magic Online, and that when we are not making people play Extended there is less Extended being run than Legacy."
(Source (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/95))

Players didn't want the "in between" rotating format. They wanted the stable, nonrotating format, even if it had a much larger card pool. Just like how Extended being an "in-between" to Legacy and Standard didn't work, Extended being an "in-between" to Modern and Standard is very unlikely to work.

[CaptainTwiddle]

...P.S.: where did Emrakul and Kozilek head to? I bet we see the plane pretty soon

There is some speculation that Kozilek and/or Emrakul may show up in Shadows Over Innistrad. The Eldrazi titans were inspired by the Lovecraftian eldritch gods, with Kozilek in particular being associated with the seas. The set name "Shadows Over Innistrad" rings a lot like Lovecraft's "Shadows Over Innsmouth." I think part of WOTC's plan with revisiting all the these planes is to start to tie the story, of which the planeswalkers are the central characters, together. This means making actual links between the planes and the events that transpire on them. Currently, 2/3 of the Eldrazi are roaming the multiverse, Nicol Bolas is scheming as always, and the Phyrexians have established themselves on what was Mirrodin. That's 3 pretty potent antagonists to work with. I can almost guarantee that at some point we'll see the classic comic book plot twist of the good guys collaborating with one of their enemies to fight a shared enemy. For instance, I could totally see the story eventually leading to Bolas assisting the other planeswalkers in luring Emrakul to New Phyrexian in hopes that they destroy each other. Of course, that would happen after the Phyrexians make another run at Dominaria in an attempt to resurrect good old Mr. The Ineffable himself, Yawgmoth (because no super villain ever stays dead, and he was already communicating with Karona from within the tomb an Urborg).

[Barook]

Of course, that would happen after the Phyrexians make another run at Dominaria in an attempt to resurrect good old Mr. The Ineffable himself, Yawgmoth (because no super villain ever stays dead, and he was already communicating with Karona from within the tomb an Urborg).
Except the Karona part was so horrible it was retconned out of existence.

And New Phyrexians don't give a flying shit about Mr. Yawgmoth. If they invade, they're going to do it just "because".

[jrsthethird]

Bringing Kozilek back means a possible reprint of IOK, bringing the price down to something reasonable.

[tescrin]

Bringing Kozilek back means a possible reprint of IOK, bringing the price down to something reasonable.

:really:
one of the least played playable cards sitting @ $11?

[keys]

:really:
one of the least played playable cards sitting @ $11?

Modern.

[jrsthethird]

Modern.

A format Wizards is invested in.

Now that Scry is evergreen Serum Visions will be back eventually too.

[phonics]

If we're talking power level I agree, but I think in just how well a set is put together I'd rate Legends as the worst. There’s no synergy or theme to it other than legends (which is made irrelevant due to there being so many of them), and it’s home to some of the worst cards ever printed. Sure, maybe Prophecy and Homelands had a low power level, but even the worst cards in those sets are better than Wood Elemental or Great Wall. I just get the feeling that they didn't even read a lot of the cards in Legends.

Congratulations, you just identified one of the reasons Extended wasn't popular. People will put up with rotation in Standard but it's obviously not something they want in their larger formats. I mean, the whole reason they tried to move to that 4-year version was because Extended wasn't popular and it was an attempt to fix it. It obviously didn't work and if anything made the situation worse, but it's not like Extended was that popular beforehand.

I've seen people try to posit this idea of bringing back Extended, but it's hard to see what's changed in the intervening years to make it any more popular than it was before.

Probably not much more in 7-year Extended than you can in Modern. Indeed, that's a big reason why they tried the 4 year thing, the hope was that it would make it a more "friendly" transition for Standard players so their decks could work better, as there really wasn't much of that going on between Standard and Extended.

The funny thing is, that scenario you posted? Is very similar to what was going on when they made the decision to cut down Extended's time frame. At that time, Legacy had 17 years, not quite 20 but close. And how well was Extended, which was supposed to be the in-between, doing? Well...

"One of the things we noticed was that the Extended format was not doing very well. The Pro Tour Qualifier round we run every year in Extended is the lowest attended, it does not do very well on Magic Online, and that when we are not making people play Extended there is less Extended being run than Legacy."
(Source (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/95))

Players didn't want the "in between" rotating format. They wanted the stable, nonrotating format, even if it had a much larger card pool. Just like how Extended being an "in-between" to Legacy and Standard didn't work, Extended being an "in-between" to Modern and Standard is very unlikely to work.

I thought extended was pretty popular before they shortened the list of applicable sets (~2010 i think?).

[tescrin]

Modern.
It's still just $11 in a format with $30+ lands, $150 bears, and $25 goblin guides
I mean, it's a lot to pay for a 1-drop I guess; but I just figure people are used to the seller-favored marketplace of magic