SCG reducing number of events, changing to prize wall payouts for "Classic" Events

[thecrav]

Link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/31833_.html

Main points

* Reducing number of events
* All but eliminating West Coast events
* PIQs (the two big side events) downgraded to "Classics"
* All side events pay out in prize wall tickets now pay out in prize wall tickets (and the conversion doesn't look good)
* Artists at all Open weekends
* Additional Vendors at all open weekends
* Winning an invitational qualifies you for the PT, including travel expenses.
* Legacy is removed from the invitationals

edit: missed some bullet points

[Undomian]

So they cut Legacy for the Invitationals, and removed cash prizes the Sunday Legacy IQs? I suppose the only way they could have made this shittier would have been to remove Legacy entirely.

[H]

So they cut Legacy for the Invitationals, and removed cash prizes the Sunday Legacy IQs? I suppose the only way they could have made this shittier would have been to remove Legacy entirely.

Just wait for our exciting announcment in 2016! :cool: -Pete Hoefling (Not really, but wait for it.)

So, in other words everywhere but the East Coast and the maybe-sort-of-Mid-West (but not really) is screwed? Cool, thanks guys.

[iamajellydonut]

Sooo...

I don't want to be "that guy", but considering SCG Opens and IQs were the only thing holding Legacy together as a legitimate enterprise, Legacy's dead?

[danyul]

I was 50/50 on doing it anyways, but this new announcement = I'm definitely selling out of Legacy after the Seattle GP. There's no point in sitting on thousands of $$$ just to hit up weekly events. Peace y'all. It was fun while it lasted.

[mishima_kazuya]

Perhaps SCG is privy to WoTC's long term magic plans, so it would be wise to reduce Legacy support if WoTC plans to enforce the Reserved List.

[testing32]

They had to change something. The EV for the legacy side events was insane.

[UnsungHero]

So they will eliminate IQ's on Sunday, replace it with this "Classic" thing and have less of a prize support than they already do? Are the Sunday events still gonna have $30 entry? So strange.

[UnsungHero]

They had to change something. The EV for the legacy side events was insane.

This is true. I think the IQ they had in Dallas Ft.Worth you could go like 4-3 and still make T32 and make your $ back.

[Tormod]

I'm in Canada....

We have 4 events+ a week, can't make them all.

Legacy survives, maybe it is even better without SCG's inbred meta

[phonics]

I was 50/50 on doing it anyways, but this new announcement = I'm definitely selling out of Legacy after the Seattle GP. There's no point in sitting on thousands of $$$ just to hit up weekly events. Peace y'all. It was fun while it lasted.

Why would you play boring, 'get killed on turn 1', 'way too expensive' legacy when you can play the wizard approved constructed format of choice, standard! Where else can you play such overpowered cards as Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise?

[thecrav]

Some quick math...

Using the prize wall from GP Atlantan (which Pete referenced in this post), the exact conversion rate from tickets to cash value varies wildly. Using BFZ packs, which seem to have the best rate and are likely the easiest thing to move quickly, the rate is $0.395 per point.

If you can get full value for your points, the EV of every position but first actually goes up. That, however, is basically impossible. I haven't looked at their buylist but my guess is that the best EV will be to buy commander and FTV boxes, open them, and immediately sell back the singles.

http://i.imgur.com/lCUVQDn.png




I don't want to be "that guy", but considering SCG Opens and IQs were the only thing holding Legacy together as a legitimate enterprise, Legacy's dead?

I don't know if legacy's dead but I'd these events probably are. Lots of people from the LGS used to drive 8 hours round trip and get a hotel to go to SCG's nearest event. I can't imagine any of them doing that for packs. IMO, these events will be purely for the people who are already playing in the open but scrub out early enough to play another format.

I think on a macro scale (i.e., lots of people playing lots of events around the country), this certainly hurts. However, the dramatic reduction in number of people may well drop the price on a lot of singles resulting in better legacy at your local as more people can afford it.


I was 50/50 on doing it anyways, but this new announcement = I'm definitely selling out of Legacy after the Seattle GP. There's no point in sitting on thousands of $$$ just to hit up weekly events. Peace y'all. It was fun while it lasted.

Probably a good idea if for no other reason that it's going to be hard for prices to stay high with demand greatly reduced.

[UnsungHero]

So the 2 big US events for Legacy confirmed for next year will be GP Columbus in June and the Open in Philadelphia in February. And then there is classics if you want to play in those for no cash prizes.

[Barook]

Sooo...

I don't want to be "that guy", but considering SCG Opens and IQs were the only thing holding Legacy together as a legitimate enterprise, Legacy's dead?
In the US? Maybe.

Didn't Europe just get the Bazaar of Moxen series for 2016?

[MGB]

I know this looks pretty grim for Legacy's future, but on another note...

KITTENS DRINKING MILK, ANYONE?

[Wilkin]

Hey tormod. I like that there's weekly legacy too but I do like going to the big tournaments too for big cash payouts as opposed to store credit or another scrubland to add to the pile. While scg still has an open for legacy in Philadelphia, I expect less than this year and no iq's suck. I wonder how good prize walls will be...

[iatee]

They had to change something. The EV for the legacy side events was insane.

Yeah often I feel like prizes offered by non-WOTC tournament organizers are 'too good'. Like, you can often just do the math - these guys are making pennies. I don't play Magic for a living, I play Magic as a hobby and I prefer the scenario where there are more opportunities to play. People need to be okay with more moderate prize support for large non-WoTC events.

I think if you keep prize support super top-heavy you can keep things competitive while still having some profit margin. Prize support walls are the worst though, and the payouts are pretty tragic.

As much as this forum is (for good reasons) focused on the legacy-side of this announcement, the fact that SCG is having a rough time financially and can't even find a way to make West Coast events work is the bigger story here.

[Richard Cheese]

Sooo...

I don't want to be "that guy", but considering SCG Opens and IQs were the only thing holding Legacy together as a legitimate enterprise, Legacy's dead?

Not necessarily dead, but it's condition has been worsening over the past few years and doesn't look to be improving any time soon, so the life support systems are getting shut down.

[AngryTroll]

The "Prize Wall" part is particularly rough for Legacy players. Cash can cover the cost the event or get turned into needed Legacy or EDH cards. The "Prize Wall" linked in the announcement doesn't have any singles on it! I have zero interest in buying packs, so what is the incentive to play in the events at all now?

[Barook]

As much as this forum is (for good reasons) focused on the legacy-side of this announcement, the fact that SCG is having a rough time financially and can't even find a way to make West Coast events work is the bigger story here.
Makes me question why they do have a financial rough time. Is it just event locations getting more and more expensive or does it also calculate in that they can't milk Legacy players anymore with ever increasing prices on staples due to them cornering the market?

[thecrav]

Makes me question why they do have a financial rough time. Is it just event locations getting more and more expensive or does it also calculate in that they can't milk Legacy players anymore with ever increasing prices on staples due to them cornering the market?

As with GPs, the Opens are having more and more stuff added to them. And with that comes additional costs. Having RK Post at every open doesn't come cheap and, unlike GPs, they haven't significantly raised their prices in quite some time.

[tescrin]

Our events have only been growing, and we've increased the number from 1 per week that fires to ~3 a week that fire, and with more people. If SCG can't manage it anymore I have to imagine either stores will sponsor larger events or some opportunist will start things up.

It's just like vintage, where there's still a meta and everything. The difference is that the number of cards available are much higher. Just like every other "sky is falling" set of posts and the expectation of a drop in prices; it all just keeps price-memory and people will keep playing.

[iatee]

Makes me question why they do have a financial rough time. Is it just event locations getting more and more expensive or does it also calculate in that they can't milk Legacy players anymore with ever increasing prices on staples due to them cornering the market?

I would guess they never made that much money from legacy players regardless. Once you have staples or a deck you like, you're buying magic cards pretty infrequently. Whereas Standard players are constantly switching decks and buying new cards. Even if the margins might be higher when you sell that Tundra, there are only so many Tundras to sell. Standard players are the guys you milk and you do it a dollar at a time.

I don't think event location prices have changed drastically (maybe they have) but SCG seems to have had projections about the growth of competitive magic that didn't pan out.

[apple713]

I was 50/50 on doing it anyways, but this new announcement = I'm definitely selling out of Legacy after the Seattle GP. There's no point in sitting on thousands of $$$ just to hit up weekly events. Peace y'all. It was fun while it lasted.

don't give in. SCG is gonna drive the prices down, buy ALL the cards, then Spike them up again :P

[iamajellydonut]

I don't know if legacy's dead but I'd these events probably are.

And with the events go my enthusiasm for the game.

I'll keep my deck and I'll keep shitposting here and I'll keep my fetches because Modern is for some reason still thriving, but I'm not invested into this game. When I first came back, I was one of the guys who were naively against the dissolution of the Reserved List on the basis of protecting my "investment". But I had sold out and bought back in after the spike. I haven't made any profit. It's just a game, and this change means that I won't be seeing the friends I've made as often. I won't get to justify taking days off of work so that I can jam games and get lost.

I was idly thinking yesterday about how much longer Magic can really go on, and this is a clear enough indication that it's gone on long enough for me. It'll be a painful departure. I grew up with the game. I'll probably even get a bit depressed over it. But it's always been just a game. I've been thinking of re-buying into paintball, and this seems like the perfect excuse.

[JACO]

I think the Prize Wall payouts in lieu of cash is really going to hurt the "Classic" event attendance. I can't imagine any of my friends driving 4 hours from Chicago to Madison, Indy, or St. Louis for example, and then paying $30+ to compete in side events that pay out in shitty packs and SCG merchandise. At least with cash prizes it made it worthwhile to attend in the past, even if you weren't playing in a main event. Additionally, both "Classic" events will be run on Sunday, meaning no significant side event on Saturday, and continued cannibalization of the two smaller events competing with each other. The new setup is just abysmal, regardless of if you prefer Legacy or Modern.

[mishima_kazuya]

Just my thoughts.

Since there is a fixed supply of dual lands, an increase of players attending Legacy Opens or Legacy GP's was not sustainable. Scheduling the same amount of Legacy tournaments every year would not be feasible either, since the increase of Magic players would trickle down to increasing attendance at these Legacy tournaments.

What I think will likely happen, is that Legacy staple prices decline to 2012 era prices ($130 max for Underground Sea). Maybe the prices decline further or not so much, but either way the decreased demand will put a dent in prices. The remaining demand will continue to come from Europe, Midwest USA and Northeast USA. Not sure on the numbers from Asia, someone got that for me?

What is also likely to happen is that the Legacy crowd will revert to regional LGS's and we may see an environment resembling pre-2010, leading to less Legacy only players attending large events. The aforementioned legacy only players only attending their monthly or weekly tournaments in their area will also likely decrease the competitiveness and erode the top tier stratification.

Will Legacy return to the wild west of pre-2010 and prices go down too? I am not confident in my answers but nevertheless, the format is not dead.

[ironclad8690]

I guess I shouldn't have taken it for granted all those years getting to play in 2-3 big legacy events on the west coast per year. Those things used to be so much fun! I remember creaming people with Zoo and having an epic story to tell about how some belcher player got super salty, or how you would barely miss being covered in the feature match area, the ultimate stage. You would end up with these crazy characters like Jeremiah Rudolph and his carrot, or some guy wearing funny clothes and playing oops all spells or something like that.

Between that and the latest MODO prize structure for daily events, it just feels bad trying to put effort into legacy now. What's the point of slinging cardboard this expensive if you barely get any opportunities to shine.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't think I've played a game of real Magic since the Origins release, now this has me thinking of at least selling the bulk of my non-reserved stuff too. How the hell am I supposed to meet other nerds without Magic though? I'm all feeling like Matthew Lillard at the end of SLC Punk, but without all the blubbering.

[solidbass]

I guess I shouldn't have taken it for granted all those years getting to play in 2-3 big legacy events on the west coast per year. Those things used to be so much fun! I remember creaming people with Zoo and having an epic story to tell about how some belcher player got super salty, or how you would barely miss being covered in the feature match area, the ultimate stage. You would end up with these crazy characters like Jeremiah Rudolph and his carrot, or some guy wearing funny clothes and playing oops all spells or something like that.

Between that and the latest MODO prize structure for daily events, it just feels bad trying to put effort into legacy now. What's the point of slinging cardboard this expensive if you barely get any opportunities to shine.

For the fun of it. Look at vintage. Cards are way more expensive and they have less opportunity to "show off." SCG should have little to do with Legacy. I play and collect because I enjoy doing so, not because SCG holds x number events and pays out cash. I suppose I'm very lucky though because the North east scene for legacy is amazing so I don't rely or need SCG to provide high quality events.

[Barook]

Just my thoughts.

Since there is a fixed supply of dual lands, an increase of players attending Legacy Opens or Legacy GP's was not sustainable. Scheduling the same amount of Legacy tournaments every year would not be feasible either, since the increase of Magic players would trickle down to increasing attendance at these Legacy tournaments.

What I think will likely happen, is that Legacy staple prices decline to 2012 era prices ($130 max for Underground Sea). Maybe the prices decline further or not so much, but either way the decreased demand will put a dent in prices. The remaining demand will continue to come from Europe, Midwest USA and Northeast USA. Not sure on the numbers from Asia, someone got that for me?

What is also likely to happen is that the Legacy crowd will revert to regional LGS's and we may see an environment resembling pre-2010, leading to less Legacy only players attending large events. The aforementioned legacy only players only attending their monthly or weekly tournaments in their area will also likely decrease the competitiveness and erode the top tier stratification.

Will Legacy return to the wild west of pre-2010 and prices go down too? I am not confident in my answers but nevertheless, the format is not dead.
Cards have price memory, so don't expect prices to go down much if at all.

There's also no Wild West left as the format has pretty much settled around 70+% cantrip shells.

[GrimoirePath]

Honestly, this forum is an incredible resource of people and players. If good sized events started to thin, and we wanted to, we could organize them ourselves. It might take time to shake out the kinks, but how hard it is to rent a hotel ballroom, set up tables, and hold an event? We could likely cut overhead by having fewer staff on hand. I think it would actually be better, to have it all player organized, and ditch the faux corporate atmosphere.

[iamajellydonut]

Honestly, this forum is an incredible resource of people and players. If good sized events started to thin, and we wanted to, we could organize them ourselves. It might take time to shake out the kinks, but how hard it is to rent a hotel ballroom, set up tables, and hold an event? We could likely cut overhead by having fewer staff on hand. I think it would actually be better, to have it all player organized, and ditch the faux corporate atmosphere.

inb4...

http://media.oglaf.com/comic/bilge.jpg

[bonkotsu]

Pete and Ben have been following comments to their article and the Reddit post, but refuse to answer any questions about why they are reducing legacy, their thoughts towards the format, or even why Pete wont respond when last year Legacy players voiced their opinions on the change and he promised a post to answer questions about the changes. Kind of a bummer.

[Dice_Box]

As someone who does not live in North America, this has no impact on me. SCG is not the reason we play over here and we as players spend hundreds travelling to what would be called small events in Melbourne and Canberra. Then there are GPs that happen in Australasia and we go to those too.

If you think just because SCG ain't running something means the world is falling in, come see the effort we Australians have to go though to play. Maybe then you will understand the love and longevity this format has.

[Michael Keller]

Does anyone remember a world where SCGs had dick to do with Legacy before they robbed the cradle?

I sure as hell do. And honestly, I'm glad they're moving away from it. It made me sick to see them drive the prices of cards up, nurture the format, then stomp and sell it out like it was nothing.

This is a purification, folks.

[bakofried]

Does anyone remember a world where SCGs had dick to do with Legacy before they robbed the cradle?

I sure as hell do. And honestly, I'm glad they're moving away from it. It made me sick to see them drive the prices of cards up, nurture the format, then stomp and sell it out like it was nothing.

This is a purification, folks.

Honestly, I think I agree. I've been enjoying Legacy more with their reduced coverage already - more cutbacks are probably a good thing.

[thecrav]

Honestly, this forum is an incredible resource of people and players. If good sized events started to thin, and we wanted to, we could organize them ourselves. It might take time to shake out the kinks, but how hard it is to rent a hotel ballroom, set up tables, and hold an event? We could likely cut overhead by having fewer staff on hand. I think it would actually be better, to have it all player organized, and ditch the faux corporate atmosphere.

FWIW, some of the larger US vintage events are held this way.

I'd be curious to see the numbers but my guess is that the fact that you're not selling anything (e.g. cards) would mean that the TO would have to take a much more significant cut of the entry fees in order to cover costs.

[Tammit67]

FWIW, some of the larger US vintage events are held this way.

I'd be curious to see the numbers but my guess is that the fact that you're not selling anything (e.g. cards) would mean that the TO would have to take a much more significant cut of the entry fees in order to cover costs.

If you are talking about the NYSE and such, they still have vendors there even if the TO himself isn't selling (to my knowledge). Nick Detwiler runs those really well.

[Mr.C]

Does anyone remember a world where SCGs had dick to do with Legacy before they robbed the cradle?

I sure as hell do. And honestly, I'm glad they're moving away from it. It made me sick to see them drive the prices of cards up, nurture the format, then stomp and sell it out like it was nothing.

This is a purification, folks.

Damn right I do.

The writing was on the wall, though, when Modern Opens were introduced.

That said, I wouldn't be pissed at SCG. Remember 2010? They were heavily in favor of abolishing the Reserved List. They did what they could. I blame WotC for screwing us much more than SCG.

[twndomn]

Doesn't legitimize the excuse of increasing cost for Not running events on the West coast.

[Mr.C]

Doesn't legitimize the excuse of increasing cost for Not running events on the West coast.

Air Freight is expensive. Maybe CFB will pick up the slack?

[Douif]

I understand that this new is hard for the american legacy player. But for example, in France, we don't have any store like scg which organises national event so the legacy community had to develop the " Legacy's French cup" created by a small association of player, very active locally.The season is the whole year, there are events, open qualifications... It allowed the legacy to remain competitive. Now, there are the mkm series and soon the Euro BOM tour, so there'll be a lot of legacy's tournament at an european level, which is very good.

Maybe that an other american store could help the legacy community or that an association could create some tournament in order to keep the legacy competitive :)

[EviL668-2]

the " Legacy's French cup" created by a small association of player, very active locally.The season is the whole year, there are events, open qualifications...

Can you please add a link or a schedule of this events as I life close to the French border! I would attend something in Strasbourg or Metz!

[Seraphix]

This news doesn't seem like such a catastrophe to me, if you're willing to travel to play in big Legacy events. In 2016 there will still be:

- U.S. Legacy GP
- 4x SCG Legacy Opens/pseudo GPs (1 each season I'm guessing)
- Eternal Weekend
- Other mid-size events like Eternal Extravaganza

Which looks like roughly the same amount of big events we had this year minus 1 or 2 Opens.

Sunday Legacy will still be around when SCG is in town, just with shittier prize support.

[Undomian]

This news doesn't seem like such a catastrophe to me, if you're willing to travel to play in big Legacy events. In 2016 there will still be:

- U.S. Legacy GP
- 4x SCG Legacy Opens/pseudo GPs (1 each season I'm guessing)
- Eternal Weekend
- Other mid-size events like Eternal Extravaganza

Which looks like roughly the same amount of big events we had this year minus 1 or 2 Opens.

Sunday Legacy will still be around when SCG is in town, just with shittier prize support.

3 Opens max probably, as there will only be 3 seasons.

[ramanujan]

It has been a while since I posted. These threads are usually just people who are upset sharing their feelings of alienation from the announcement.

I don't like this any more than anyone else but here are my thoughts.

The writing was on the wall. SCG was very savvy regarding their strategy for how to grow profits using legacy events. I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason why the support is changing is that there simply isn't enough money in it anymore. SCG pumped support in to legacy in an effort to profit from increasing the price of singles, among other things. They were very effective in this goal. If you track the progress of most any legacy staple, most notably duel lands, think about the volume of profit that was generated for SCG over the years. They have been buying collections for years and their true inventory is nowhere near what is for sale on the website. I hope I don't need to connect the dots.

The trajectory of the Legacy support is very similar to the vintage support. They made vintage big in the early and mid 2000s. Support for vintage is dead now.

Welcome to the Modern Era.

I look forward to the future Hypermodern era.

[H]

I think the Prize Wall payouts in lieu of cash is really going to hurt the "Classic" event attendance. I can't imagine any of my friends driving 4 hours from Chicago to Madison, Indy, or St. Louis for example, and then paying $30+ to compete in side events that pay out in shitty packs and SCG merchandise. At least with cash prizes it made it worthwhile to attend in the past, even if you weren't playing in a main event. Additionally, both "Classic" events will be run on Sunday, meaning no significant side event on Saturday, and continued cannibalization of the two smaller events competing with each other. The new setup is just abysmal, regardless of if you prefer Legacy or Modern.

I have heard that the "Prize Wall" is being redone though, so maybe it gets better (I can't see it being any worse, unless they literally make it the Dave and Buster's Prize Wall). Of course, it's still going to be junk compared to cash, but just saying we don't really know exactly how bad it is just yet.

[Undomian]

I have heard that the "Prize Wall" is being redone though, so maybe it gets better (I can't see it being any worse, unless they literally make it the Dave and Buster's Prize Wall). Of course, it's still going to be junk compared to cash, but just saying we don't really know exactly how bad it is just yet.

I dunno, there are times when I'd take candy and cheap plastic shit over packs of the latest standard garbage.

[iamajellydonut]

I dunno, there are times when I'd take candy and cheap plastic shit over packs of the latest standard garbage.

"I'll be taking eleven hundred and fifty balsa wood airplanes, thank you."

[Dice_Box]

"I'll be taking eleven hundred and fifty balsa wood airplanes, thank you."

Sounds like a fun afternoon. Just open the gun safe and head out on the quad. I would like that.

[H]

I dunno, there are times when I'd take candy and cheap plastic shit over packs of the latest standard garbage.


"I'll be taking eleven hundred and fifty balsa wood airplanes, thank you."

Just can't please all the people all the time.

Honestly, I think we, as the Legacy community are pretty spoiled when it comes to the support we were getting from SCG. Legacy will become the new Vintage. While that means "dead" to some, Vintage is far from dead in reality. We are going to have to put in work as a community to get good events run. It's going to be really tough outside of the East Coast (population density is a bitch) but that's our future.

[rufus]

I understand that this new is hard for the american legacy player. But for example, in France, we don't have any store like scg which organises national event so the legacy community had to develop ...

It's worth keeping in mind that France is roughly the size of California. So the "West Coast" is a bunch bigger. It also takes a while for community organized stuff to get going, and the there's already a lot of stuff in the ecosystem that you'd be competing with.

[Julian23]

It's going to be really tough outside of the East Coast (population density is a bitch) but that's our future.

Meanwhile in Europe... (http://i.imgur.com/6v1JbLf.jpg)

If you guys wanna go on an Euro Road Trip, 2016 is going to be the best year in EU Eternal history.

[davelin]

It has been a while since I posted. These threads are usually just people who are upset sharing their feelings of alienation from the announcement.

I don't like this any more than anyone else but here are my thoughts.

The writing was on the wall. SCG was very savvy regarding their strategy for how to grow profits using legacy events. I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason why the support is changing is that there simply isn't enough money in it anymore. SCG pumped support in to legacy in an effort to profit from increasing the price of singles, among other things. They were very effective in this goal. If you track the progress of most any legacy staple, most notably duel lands, think about the volume of profit that was generated for SCG over the years. They have been buying collections for years and their true inventory is nowhere near what is for sale on the website. I hope I don't need to connect the dots.

The trajectory of the Legacy support is very similar to the vintage support. They made vintage big in the early and mid 2000s. Support for vintage is dead now.

Welcome to the Modern Era.

I look forward to the future Hypermodern era.

Agreed, it was probably inevitable that SCG would reduce its Legacy footprint given the margins aren't there compared to say Standard or Modern. But it would've been nice if they would've kept on continuing it say for the love of the game/format. Unfortunately dollars is more important to them than supporting the community.

[H]

Meanwhile in Europe... (http://i.imgur.com/6v1JbLf.jpg)

If you guys wanna go on an Euro Road Trip, 2016 is going to be the best year in EU Eternal history.

If only I had the money and the vacation time to be able to do that. Also, you know, a place to drop off my 5 kids...

But seriously, you guys in Europe have some advantages we can't match here off the East Coast in the US, the biggest of which is the lack of vacation time from work. I work 50 hours a week and still only get 5 days of paid vacation per year.


Agreed, it was probably inevitable that SCG would reduce its Legacy footprint given the margins aren't there compared to say Standard or Modern. But it would've been nice if they would've kept on continuing it say for the love of the game/format. Unfortunately dollars is more important to them than supporting the community.

While that would be nice, I'm not going to fault a business for trying to make money. If we want things done out of love, we have to come together as a community and do it, not expect charity from big business.

[Julian23]

I work 50 hours a week and still only get 5 days of paid vacation per year.

It's so scary to hear that this is a real thing. I mean I am working 40 hours a week and get 30 days of paid vacation. It feels weird to even mention that it's "paid" since otherwise it wouldn't really be vacation, the way I see it.

But I've seen even crazier stories. Like this guy on reddit who said he hasn't had a single day of paid vacation in 10 years. How is that even possible? I would go insane :cry:

[Undomian]

Luckily for those of us on the East coast, there are some people willing to at least give it a shot
https://www.facebook.com/talesofadventurecomics/photos/a.226548604179515.1073741830.212621472238895/520345991466440/?type=3

[H]

It's so scary to hear that this is a real thing. I mean I am working 40 hours a week and get 30 days of paid vacation. It feels weird to even mention that it's "paid" since otherwise it wouldn't really be vacation, the way I see it.

Yeah, eventually, once I've worked here for 3 years, it will be 2 weeks, but still, yeah. The only field I know of that is even close is the medical field, my uncle gets probably close to 20 days, I think. That's really my own fault for not getting myself into a better career, but American employers give almost no benefits when compared to European ones.



But I've seen even crazier stories. Like this guy on reddit who said he hasn't had a single day of paid vacation in 10 years. How is that even possible? I would go insane :cry:

You probably would. Lots of people here do too. All the crazy shit that happens here isn't for no reason.

Most employers are happy enough to crew you up and spit you out once you aren't useful. Benefits? Why give benefits? If you have a problem, go find a new job, they'll be pleased to replace you with someone making less anyway.

I might be getting a little off topic.


Luckily for those of us on the East coast, there are some people willing to at least give it a shot
https://www.facebook.com/talesofadventurecomics/photos/a.226548604179515.1073741830.212621472238895/520345991466440/?type=3

When I lament how I am sad I live in the wrong part of the country now, I'm really not joking.

[iatee]

Kudos to Tales of Adventure. Smart stores, especially on the East Coast and Seattle, are gonna know a business opportunity when they see one.

It's too bad they don't have singles listed online, cause I'd def be willing to give them my business when I need to buy random singles.

[GrimoirePath]

FWIW, some of the larger US vintage events are held this way.

I'd be curious to see the numbers but my guess is that the fact that you're not selling anything (e.g. cards) would mean that the TO would have to take a much more significant cut of the entry fees in order to cover costs.

We could probably get a block rate on rooms at like, a Super 8 or La Quinta in. Rent their conference room, and shoot for having fifty people minimum. At twenty bucks a head on entry, thats a thousand bucks to pay for rent, a judge's time, and prize support. You could even hold two events, one say, on Saturday night for ten bucks that could be a "midnight mayhem" that is a single elimination just for fun for people who drive in and spend the night, and then hold the main event on Sunday at like, eleven a.m.

The Saturday night event could be less serious with a top prize of $100 bucks, and you could just be trying to make your room cost, or playing a spicy deck for shits. Main event Sunday you could try to top prize $300 or so.

Im just spitballing here, but it seems like it should be possible to hold an event that is cheaper for players to enter, still sizable enough to be a lot of fun, and have way lower overhead than an SCG open. SCG is trying to profit and exist as a company that pays out salaries. Player organized events would be only striving to cover costs, offer good prizes, and create a space for paper legacy.

And i really like the idea of a night time event. Im sick of waking up at five a.m. After working the night before to drive to an open. Im always exhausted by round three.

[maharis]

SCG lost money on the Sunday 5k series. At $30 per entry, those events need 167 players to break even. I played in one that was literally half that in Charlotte (this was the same weekend as Eternal Weekend). But even the Standard one the same day fell short of break-even by 30+ players. I found a couple random Modern ones that got into the 160s and one that hit 225. Most of the Legacy ones were 120-140 players which is a nice crowd.... as long as you're not guaranteeing $5,000 in prizes. The point is, 5ks for every format lost money, even standard, with Modern having the best showing. (This isn't really scientific but I checked about 5 weekends and that should be enough of a sample.)

For opens, you need 400 people at $50 each to break even for $20k, and every format exceeded this. Obviously there are other costs associated but it's safe to say most opens did a good job for them. But the 5ks were clearly unsustainable unless the opens were fantastic.

There are a number of directions they could've taken this. One would've been to increase the entry fee for Legacy tournaments. Going up to $40 or $50 for a Legacy 5k is fine because Legacy players want to play and tend to have the extra money. Honestly, I would take a guaranteed $50 5k every weekend even if it meant NO 2-day opens. Watching legacy once a quarter is nice, but there are plenty of places to see streamed Legacy now, and if they were able to crush it with Standard Opens and sort of let Legacy continue unmolested, that would've been enough for us to maintain a healthy metagame without an existential threat.

Bit since at the same time, Modern was in a fine place with $30 5ks, they probably still could've simply bumped both entries up to $40. Had they done that and run 0 Modern or Legacy opens, I think the entire weekend makes money every time, and every format gets adequate data for a solid metagame. You would need 250 players to break even with 2 5ks and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 120 Legacy and 180 Modern for 300 total players.

That's great if what's important to you is the community. SCG, however, does not care about the community. They look at this game as an avenue for profit, and they want to maximize that profit. That means rewarding people who build decks by buying singles with packs of random cards, which are not for constructed players -- standard, modern, or legacy. (I am sure they will put some singles up on their prize walls, but I doubt the value will be commensurate.)

I see a lot of people saying "well Legacy players should've come out more" or whatever, but it is clear that Legacy players will come out. Look at what's happening in Seattle with the lead up to the GP there, as well as the Eternal Extravaganza events and of course Eternal Weekend which had a record amount of players for both tournaments. (And, of course, the 4k player GP less than a year ago). The community isn't getting smaller, it's just relatively small compared to the player base overall.

But eventually this alienation will happen to all constructed formats, because the game is being designed for limited and limited is the most profitable format for all entities involved. (Standard doesn't do a ton for Wizards, though it is good for vendors.) The last three Standard opens had very modest attendance.

[hymnyou]

SCG is a much smaller piece of Legacy community then some are making it out to be on here. In the grand scheme of things though Legacy is bigger than SCG, and Legacy will no doubt adapt. Hopefully this inspires people to push their local scene harder, and/or travel to more events like Eternal Weekend, Eternal Extravaganza, MKM, or a Legacy GP. Sounds like Card Kingdom is considering 1k's now. More will invest in larger events because this is opening a great opportunity for stores or a larger TO.

In Atlanta we started Streaming and got really good results via streaming, 36 is our highest at a 5 dollar weekly. Card Kingdom which already had a large scene followed suit and have had a increase via stream as well, so the results seem proven.
We have just gotten our first store-run larger Legacy tournament, which is great. We explained to the store owner that by being a Brick and Mortar he is buying at buylist and the card payout is at full value- which would make the stores gains while keeping the majority of players happy, none the less store sales.
The store is going to start a Bye system rewarding those who do well in the weeklies, push weekly attendance. If the bigger event exceeds expectations more prize support will be added, we are hoping this grows much bigger. Hopefully this inspires someone out there with their own locals. Link to event below.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30085-Atlanta-legacy-tournament-*-duel-for-duals

A wise friend put it like this:

Scg killed the power 9 circuit. My power is worth five times what it was. Scg killed Sunday legacy by Fbb and beta duals doubled. Just flew back from a 300 person $60 legacy event in Penn. 100 person vintage. Card titan just held the largest vintage event ever and the biggest legacy champs ever. Changing these Sunday iqs to paying out in Otter Porn won't do anything.

[Richard Cheese]

We could probably get a block rate on rooms at like, a Super 8 or La Quinta in. Rent their conference room, and shoot for having fifty people minimum. At twenty bucks a head on entry, thats a thousand bucks to pay for rent, a judge's time, and prize support. You could even hold two events, one say, on Saturday night for ten bucks that could be a "midnight mayhem" that is a single elimination just for fun for people who drive in and spend the night, and then hold the main event on Sunday at like, eleven a.m.

The Saturday night event could be less serious with a top prize of $100 bucks, and you could just be trying to make your room cost, or playing a spicy deck for shits. Main event Sunday you could try to top prize $300 or so.

Im just spitballing here, but it seems like it should be possible to hold an event that is cheaper for players to enter, still sizable enough to be a lot of fun, and have way lower overhead than an SCG open. SCG is trying to profit and exist as a company that pays out salaries. Player organized events would be only striving to cover costs, offer good prizes, and create a space for paper legacy.

And i really like the idea of a night time event. Im sick of waking up at five a.m. After working the night before to drive to an open. Im always exhausted by round three.

If you're aiming to have <100 people, why not partner with a game store in the area? Then you already have a TO, and they get the benefit of selling singles. Good luck finding a weekend where there isn't a GPT, Super IQ, and a couple PPTQs going on already.

[Lysandros]

Every time Pete and Ben show up and claim they still support legacy I'm reminded of the Iraqi propaganda minister who kept coming on the air during the early stages of the Iraq War to ensure the world that the Iraqis were destroying the infidel invaders despite all reports to the contrary.

Seriously SCG, quit pissing on our back and telling us it's raining.

Also, I hate Modern. Who wants to ride a bike with training wheels when you can ride a Harley? Play basketball with an 8 foot hoop instead of 10? Play powder puff football instead of full contact? Screw with a rubber instead of the real thing?

[iatee]

There are a number of directions they could've taken this. One would've been to increase the entry fee for Legacy tournaments. Going up to $40 or $50 for a Legacy 5k is fine because Legacy players want to play and tend to have the extra money. Honestly, I would take a guaranteed $50 5k every weekend even if it meant NO 2-day opens. Watching legacy once a quarter is nice, but there are plenty of places to see streamed Legacy now, and if they were able to crush it with Standard Opens and sort of let Legacy continue unmolested, that would've been enough for us to maintain a healthy metagame without an existential threat.

Bit since at the same time, Modern was in a fine place with $30 5ks, they probably still could've simply bumped both entries up to $40. Had they done that and run 0 Modern or Legacy opens, I think the entire weekend makes money every time, and every format gets adequate data for a solid metagame. You would need 250 players to break even with 2 5ks and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 120 Legacy and 180 Modern for 300 total players.


I think they could both bump up the entry fees and also have attendance-scaled prizes. I don't think guaranteed prizes are necessary to bring people in for formats w/ dedicated fanbases, and I don't think TOs should have to take risks / lose money on these things. If they just straight up said "Hey, look at the numbers, we are losing money, we would like to not lose money..." I think that would be taken in better faith than "So we heard that people LOVE prize walls."

I mean there are legacy players showing up with decks worth 5k, ultimately I don't think this is 'about the money' for most people, it's about the competitive edge that 'real prizes' bring to an event. Dual lands are another option that works well.

[Michael Keller]

This is what Star City did to Legacy, in all honesty:


https://media.giphy.com/media/5xtDarGhv1dqDju4QgM/giphy.gif

They never took into the account the passion Legacy players had before they even invested in the format. Instead, it seems to me from a business perspective they saw an opportunity to capitalize on its popularity, label it "theirs" on their Open Series and when something newer came along they pushed it aside to accommodate - not realizing the ripple effect it could cause.

[iatee]

Incidentally, the LGS that maharis and I used to go to - which had a very health legacy community - recently pretty much stopped running scheduled magic tournaments. They weren't making enough money off it. (Thankfully some other stores have picked up the slack for legacy events, and now there are actually more options than before.) This was a well-known store that appeared to be very successful, had attendance numbers that most stores would be jealous of, but NYC rents are insane.

Ultimately I think if you can foster a dedicated community of 20/30 somethings w/ disposable incomes and you can't figure out a way to get money out of them, you're not thinking very creatively.

[phazonmutant]

I was upset at scg, but people are stepping up. CardKingdom is committing to 1k legacy tournaments regularly (monthly starting in December is what they're aiming for), and they have a awesome vintage tournament coming up that's paying out in over 1k in prizes.

Also to rebut people saying legacy is dying, I'll just repost my content to Ali Aintrazi on the scg article:

That's an oft-repeated claim, but a large part of why Legacy is dying has to do with lack of support. The Seattle area has a Legacy GP, and I have been frankly amazed at the swelling of support for the format.

Two stores have had 50-70 player weeklies (sanctioned of course) for the past two weeks, there have been over 10 GPTs (more than one a weekend on average), and CardKingdom's Legacy stream grew the weekly tournament size on average 5 people (~15%) according to an analysis by its event coordinator. I have heard many stories of standard players getting into legacy and enjoying it, and many people in the area lend out extra decks.

We had the largest Legacy Champs *and* the largest Vintage Champs ever this year. The largest Grand Prix on the West Coast ever is Legacy. Eternal Magic is on its biggest upswing in years.

The only thing that's dying about Legacy is StarCityGame's support for it.

[jamie7keller]

SCG is a much smaller piece of Legacy community then some are making it out to be on here. In the grand scheme of things though Legacy is bigger than SCG, and Legacy will no doubt adapt. Hopefully this inspires people to push their local scene harder, and/or travel to more events like Eternal Weekend, Eternal Extravaganza, MKM, or a Legacy GP. Sounds like Card Kingdom is considering 1k's now. More will invest in larger events because this is opening a great opportunity for stores or a larger TO.


This was just Tweeteed:

Time Vault Games ‏@TimeVaultGames 52m52 minutes ago
@ProggyBoog @Jamie7Keller @sigfig8 @ssomers55 @Chosler88 TVG will host 1k+5K Legacy/STD/MOD events in the NW for 2016 dates & locations TBD

https://twitter.com/TimeVaultGames/status/661592821808295937


Also, Card Kingdom is taking note of this and streams Legacy every monday with comentary already. I know CoolstuffInc is aware of it as well, though their model so far doesn't seem to be in that direction. I know Chanel Fireball had talked about getting a series up, and TCGplayer i hear is going strong...

There are a lot fo other sources that can (and apparently will) step up. I wouldn't boycot SCG or anything, they are stilla fine store and I still appreciate them doing Legacy events (more than most LGS's do and more than WOTC does). But talk to the other big stores, and reward them if they listen! :)

EDIT: I appear to be ninja'd. ;)

Remember what a success GP NJ was. Remember that there are 4 new Legacy only podcasts in the past year. Sites are hungry for Legacy content to publish. Legacy is growing, it just didn't makes sense in the business sense for SCG at this time. They are money makes first and formost.

[tescrin]

Honestly, I think I agree. I've been enjoying Legacy more with their reduced coverage already - more cutbacks are probably a good thing.

This is where I'm at.

My guess is that legacy will be fine and the people rage-selling everything are just going to miss out.
It's natural that the more people who enter magic (which they have been in recent years) the more popular all formats become, demand goes up slowly, and yadda yadda

EDIT:

This was just Tweeteed:

Time Vault Games ‏@TimeVaultGames 52m52 minutes ago
@ProggyBoog @Jamie7Keller @sigfig8 @ssomers55 @Chosler88 TVG will host 1k+5K Legacy/STD/MOD events in the NW for 2016 dates & locations TBD

https://twitter.com/TimeVaultGames/status/661592821808295937
.

8O!
These guys are the guys I play weeklies at. That's so awesome.
We have a good scene here and I think it's bound to just keep getting better.

[Barook]

But eventually this alienation will happen to all constructed formats, because the game is being designed for limited and limited is the most profitable format for all entities involved. (Standard doesn't do a ton for Wizards, though it is good for vendors.) The last three Standard opens had very modest attendance.
I wouldn't be suprised if this was a direct result of the most expensive Standard since Caw Blade (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-most-expensive-standard-since-caw-blade).

Maybe player growth hits its limited very soon. The alienation of Constructed players might very well play part of it (boring, rehashed mechanics, everythings costs too much, only thing to do is turn stuff sideaways in the red zone). Could be the reason why Wizards cut the number of GPs next year because they see the writtings on the wall that the gold rush is over.

[from Cairo]

I haven't been playing much, but SCG stepping back from Legacy doesn't seem horrible to me. Before SCG smaller independent stores hosted worthwhile Legacy events, I see no reason for this not to continue.

[MGB]

This was kind of in the vein of those "long time coming" types of things. The writing was on the wall for the past year plus, really.


Again, it sucks that Legacy is getting the plug pulled on it by SCG, but at the end of the day, SCG is simply a business that has to generate a profit. Clearly they believe that Legacy tournaments no longer contribute to their profitability as a business entity. Alot of it probably has to do with the fact that the Legacy player-base is already saturated with the staple cards of the format and SCG can no longer gouge them on dual lands and the like.

[jrsthethird]

Incidentally, the LGS that maharis and I used to go to - which had a very health legacy community - recently pretty much stopped running scheduled magic tournaments. They weren't making enough money off it. (Thankfully some other stores have picked up the slack for legacy events, and now there are actually more options than before.) This was a well-known store that appeared to be very successful, had attendance numbers that most stores would be jealous of, but NYC rents are insane.

Are you talking about 20SS? I've never been, but I've been to Geekery for Legacy a couple times (once last night) and it was fun. Where else do you play?

[maharis]

Are you talking about 20SS? I've never been, but I've been to Geekery for Legacy a couple times (once last night) and it was fun. Where else do you play?

He means 20SS. There has been some smoke rising from the mountaintop over there recently, we'll see if eternal comes back.

I haven't made it to Geekery yet but I might for the first time on Monday.

A store called Nebulous Gaming on the LES is test-running legacy next Thurs. at 7.

Montasy and whatever rises from the ashes of Get There Games also will have Legacy.

[tianyuan2k4]

I think they could both bump up the entry fees and also have attendance-scaled prizes. I don't think guaranteed prizes are necessary to bring people in for formats w/ dedicated fanbases, and I don't think TOs should have to take risks / lose money on these things. If they just straight up said "Hey, look at the numbers, we are losing money, we would like to not lose money..." I think that would be taken in better faith than "So we heard that people LOVE prize walls."

I mean there are legacy players showing up with decks worth 5k, ultimately I don't think this is 'about the money' for most people, it's about the competitive edge that 'real prizes' bring to an event. Dual lands are another option that works well.

Eetai, long time no see, heh.

After 20SS stopped running Monday Legacy, NYC peeps end up having The Geekery Monday Legacy (http://www.thegeekeryhq.com/) and Montasy Comics Tuesday Legacy (http://www.montasycomics.com/midtown-nyc--chapter-2.html). I was playing at both of them for a month until I caught up with work and family stuff. Nonetheless they are both really great, close to subway station, different player bases with plenty of regulars and good turnouts. I couldn't ask for more I guess.

[jrsthethird]

He means 20SS. There has been some smoke rising from the mountaintop over there recently, we'll see if eternal comes back.

I haven't made it to Geekery yet but I might for the first time on Monday.

A store called Nebulous Gaming on the LES is test-running legacy next Thurs. at 7.

Montasy and whatever rises from the ashes of Get There Games also will have Legacy.

The 12th, right? I'll mark my calendar. Definitely will try to support something that's new and yet to be established.


Eetai, long time no see, heh.

After 20SS stopped running Monday Legacy, NYC peeps end up having The Geekery Monday Legacy (http://www.thegeekeryhq.com/) and Montasy Comics Tuesday Legacy (http://www.montasycomics.com/midtown-nyc--chapter-2.html). I was playing at both of them for a month until I caught up with work and family stuff. Nonetheless they are both really great, close to subway station, different player bases with plenty of regulars and good turnouts. I couldn't ask for more I guess.

For some reason I was confused about the time and day for Montasy's Legacy, or I would have gone tonight. Maybe next week.

[lordofthepit]

After finishing a 30-hour call shift, I've had a chance to read SCG's announcement and consider their decision. I strongly believe they were bleeding money on the Open Circuit after changing to the two-day Open format, that they were willing to sustain these losses over the short-term to grow their brand in terms of premier play, and that they jumped on an opportunity offered by Wizards to merge with the PTQ system that would have required them to drop Legacy-format invitationals.

Some of you may remember that I had been following SCG Open attendance numbers for quite a while, a project I discontinued once I got busier, which coincided with SCG making it clear that they wouldn't be returning to Seattle anymore (with the May Open and the December Invitational both moved) and with them announcing their schedule for the second half of 2015 despite numbers that showed strong Legacy attendance. What I found was that despite putting up more in prize support with the new changes, SCG is not pulling in enough extra money from tournament entry to make up for the difference in prize support (and in many cases, pulling in less money period). Data I've seen from other users on Reddit suggest that attendance figures for two-day Opens are still underwhelming. All this is before taking into account the cost of venue, production, employee labor, and travel.

Granted, SCG doesn't necessarily need to make money on their events if it can stimulate sales and allow them to facilitate transactions at the event sites. But in that case, wouldn't it make more sense to diversify your Open Series locations and the format events offered so that you reach the most diverse player base? That is to say, maybe you could get 500 players per event by holding four Standard events in New York, Boston, Edison, and Philadelphia, but it would be more worthwhile holding a Standard event in New York, a Legacy event in Philadelphia, a Modern event in St. Louis, and another Standard event in Los Angeles, even if the aggregate number of players is lower, as this likely represents more unique customers as well as an opportunity to do business in places where SCG hasn't already saturated its presence. (In fact, Standard Opens and Premier IQs get lower attendance numbers than Legacy or Modern ones.) This was more or less its business model until essentially mid-December 2014, and it was apparently quite profitable as SCG continued expanding its operation with more events and more prize support. Cutting off the entire western United States would not have been a consideration until recently, even though the West Coast events tended to get lower attendance numbers than elsewhere even in the past. The problem with West Coast attendance is further exacerbated by the gradual evolution of SCG from a series of more or less independent tournaments in 2010 to an overly ambitious circuit with its own point system that encourages players to travel regularly in order to grind tournaments. Most of these grinders are based on the East Coast and in the Midwest because that is where it's most geographically favorable to do so, attendance numbers for SCG in Western cities waned* despite higher prize support, and eventually, SCG could no longer afford to bleed money on West Coast events.

*Aside: I've heard some people suggest the strong attendance numbers for Legacy Opens and GPs is due to the fact that there are relatively few such events, so players from a wider geographic radius come out for these events. While there might be some merit to such a statement, the decay of SCG's presence on the West Coast suggests often there is the opposite effect. And in any case, if holding 10% of the Open weekends as Legacy instead of Standard results in higher attendance numbers for the former, that suggests that aggregate attendance could be improved by increasing the proportion of Legacy events. /end aside

Despite the financial losses sustained with the new system in 2015, SCG probably felt that it could absorb these losses to a small extent in the short-term if they could establish a long-term system that resembled the highest levels of Wizards's premier play structure, and the fact that the new two-day Opens were identical in structure to 15-round Grands Prix, that split-format, Invitationals resembled Pro Tours, and that the Players' Championship with its completely obscure format and 16-player field resembled World Championships was no accident (albeit at a lower level of competition in each regard). Fortunately for SCG, Wizards announced earlier this year that they would open up additional paths to the Pro Tour for performances in large tournaments (like the Invitational), which gave more legitimacy to SCG tournaments in this regard. However, because Wizards will never support Legacy as a Pro Tour or PTQ format (nor would I ever want them to), they likely had to drop Legacy as a format in their Invitational tournaments. At that point, it certainly would have made sense to phase out Legacy as a regular Open format, despite the fact that attendance numbers alone were not enough to justify doing so.

So essentially, SCG had the opportunity to expand their appeal to aspiring Pro Tour wannabes at the cost of dissociating themselves from the Legacy community. And from a business perspective, that's a trade that I would take every time. Legacy players may have disposable income, but there is more money to be extracted from the unrequited desires and poor judgment of the PTQ grinder crowd. One group is more likely to sardine themselves dozens at a time in living rooms on Saturday mornings, lying on vomit-soaked floors or sleeping on bug-infested chairs in rural Buttfuckistan to take advantage of a "softer" event. To nourish themselves off exclusively microwavable food, stale Cheetos, and Ramen noodles warmed by salty tears. To pay $40 to play in a shitty sealed format for a chance to win a fucking box of BFZ. And then to drive to Podunkville the next morning for the same opportunity. This is the audience of players that will jump through hoops to play in events, and it's the target that SCG is trying to appeal to.

So where does that leave Legacy? Well, Legacy on the SCG circuit will be mostly dead. I would have been perfectly fine with only Premier IQs (even though I would never be able to attend given that SCG will never travel to the West Coast again), but replacing them with Classics offering a Prize Wall is complete bullshit. Now, instead of having the opportunity to play for $1200 for a 1st place finish, players can play for 1800 tickets for finishing in the top 8. You can't redeem them for singles, but those 1800 tickets can get you five boxes of Dragons of Tarkir or whatever the newest Standard set is. Or 10 Tasipurr playmats with a couple tickets left to spare. But perhaps you might be interested in 180 Brad Nelson or Brian Kibler tokens instead? Or maybe like me, you probably think all of these are equally useless and probably wouldn't even play even if there were a Classic event right outside your house. I see attendance figures for Legacy Classics struggling to crack 50 players in the future, and I think this change affects the Legacy format SCG events particularly hard because Legacy players are least likely to eat this shit up.

But unless you live in a rural place in the East Coast or Midwest without access to basic necessities like water, electricity, and a strong Legacy scene independent of SCG, this change doesn't necessarily affect your ability to enjoy Legacy. Seattle hasn't had an SCG Legacy Open since March 2014 or an SCG event since December 2014, and it's exceedingly unlikely SCG ever returns again, and our Eternal scene has absolutely thrived (although with significant help from the upcoming GP!). I wasn't able to attend, but I heard the local Monday night $10 event this week got over 70 players, which put the store at capacity, and the store is working on scaling up to meet the demand for larger tournaments. The scene in Europe has grown with no help whatsoever from SCG, and now MKM is expanding the presence of their tournament circuit. I encourage players elsewhere to see if their local store is capable of organizing such events. Personally, I always thought Legacy was a grassroots format, and I would welcome a return to just having good, old-fashioned tournaments again, the way SCG used to run things when they first started off, before they introduced and emphasized all the bullshit involving byes, Open points, Invitationals, Season Points races, Pro Tour qualifications, etc., which distracts from the actual Magic.

[jrsthethird]

sleeping on bug-infested chairs in rural Buttfuckistan to take advantage of a "softer" event.

If I'm traveling all the way to Buttfuckistan, I'm looking for an event that's hard. Very hard.

[Dice_Box]

Very good post. Well put.

[blubberpompnao]

This was just Tweeteed:

Time Vault Games ‏@TimeVaultGames 52m52 minutes ago
@ProggyBoog @Jamie7Keller @sigfig8 @ssomers55 @Chosler88 TVG will host 1k+5K Legacy/STD/MOD events in the NW for 2016 dates & locations TBD

https://twitter.com/TimeVaultGames/status/661592821808295937


Very excited to see this! I love Time Vault, and hell I even worked there for a few months when I got laid off from my previous job. Glad to see they'll be running more premier events and helping to support Legacy. If anyone is ever in the Portland Oregon area come play with us on Saturdays, we usually have a good turnout.

[keys]

Quality post

[lyracian]

So essentially, SCG had the opportunity to expand their appeal to aspiring Pro Tour wannabes at the cost of dissociating themselves from the Legacy community. And from a business perspective, that's a trade that I would take every time.
I think this statement really sums it up; as a business dropping Legacy to get Grinders who want to get on the pro-tour makes sense. Wizards and SCG both get what they want, to make more money.

[iatee]

Grinding SCG events seems like a terrible way to get on the Pro Tour in terms of how much work that takes compared to qualifying via the RPTQ system.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Grinding SCG events seems like a terrible way to get on the Pro Tour in terms of how much work that takes compared to qualifying via the RPTQ system.

I think the point is you can do both. PPTs and IQs are now both potential routes to the pro tour, if you get lucky and/or grind enough.

[Richard Cheese]

The more I think about this, the more it seems to matter less to Legacy and make sense from the SCG perspective. The SCG Legacy opens pay out better than a GP and cost less to attend, but only get a fraction of the attendance. They're probably just hoping that with fewer events they can focus on better advertising and extras and get more players at a single event. I'm guessing there's a lot less overhead to running a single 2000-player event compared to 4 500-player events.

Granted, you don't get the guys that will drive to 3-4 opens/year, but I'm not sure how big a slice of the Legacy community that is vs. the people that only go to an open if it's local, and might travel for something huge like a GP.

[JPoJohnson]

Having moved from St. Louis to central Utah last year, I've really had minimal legacy support for the past two years. I always enjoyed the 10-30 attendance legacy events more than the large opens. I think this may affect a few prices initially with the always-panic crowd that seems to try and collect cards, but I think local support, card value, and the future of legacy will be just fine.

Having said that, I'm with lordofthepit - I don't think I would attend a "Classic" event even if it was held in my own house.

[MGB]

So essentially, SCG had the opportunity to expand their appeal to aspiring Pro Tour wannabes at the cost of dissociating themselves from the Legacy community. And from a business perspective, that's a trade that I would take every time. Legacy players may have disposable income, but there is more money to be extracted from the unrequited desires and poor judgment of the PTQ grinder crowd. One group is more likely to sardine themselves dozens at a time in living rooms on Saturday mornings, lying on vomit-soaked floors or sleeping on bug-infested chairs in rural Buttfuckistan to take advantage of a "softer" event. To nourish themselves off exclusively microwavable food, stale Cheetos, and Ramen noodles warmed by salty tears. To pay $40 to play in a shitty sealed format for a chance to win a fucking box of BFZ. And then to drive to Podunkville the next morning for the same opportunity. This is the audience of players that will jump through hoops to play in events, and it's the target that SCG is trying to appeal to.


Wow, your take on the Standard grinders is pretty harsh. Are all of these aspiring Pro Tour types as degenerate as you make them out to be? I don't really get to be around many Type 2 players myself.

[Julian23]

Haha, that description fits really well for the lifestyle my local community has been cultivating between something like 2006 and 2012. But for Legacy.

I remember sleeping in a 10m² room with 6 people for a GP; sleeping in a house with a huge HOLE in one of the outside walls for another GP and have the staircase come down on one of my friends. And to be fair, I loved it every step along the way :)

[Tammit67]

have the staircase come down on one of my friends. And to be fair, I loved it every step along the way :)

This was worse than the SCG announcement

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Legacy going away isn't surprising really, or maybe not for me anyways (I accepted something like this was coming a while ago), the fact they are switching to objectively awful prize support and is more worrisome IMO

Then again, SCG basically hates SE texas so I've only been to maybe 3 SCG events since I started playing magic about 5 years ago so I'm not sure how much I honestly care.


I have heard that the "Prize Wall" is being redone though, so maybe it gets better (I can't see it being any worse, unless they literally make it the Dave and Buster's Prize Wall). Of course, it's still going to be junk compared to cash, but just saying we don't really know exactly how bad it is just yet.

It basically is Dave and Buster's Prize wall, just with magic stuff instead of random fucking electronics that no one ever gets 1,000,000 tickets for, if they simply made it tickets worth $1 a piece that expired at the end of the event (so as to stop people from sandbagging credit and avoid the hassle of filling out tax info), it would be fine, this frankly is a fucking joke.


Wow, your take on the Standard grinders is pretty harsh. Are all of these aspiring Pro Tour types as degenerate as you make them out to be? I don't really get to be around many Type 2 players myself.

Actually fairly accurate, last Open I actually traveled to I roomed up with 3 other people in an incredibly cheap hotel.

If I recall correctly, the bed sheets and blankets were piss yellow.

[Crimhead]

As someone who does not live in North America, this has no impact on me.
I live in Canada (for the first time in ten years I'm not ashamed yo say that), and I never travel much for Legacy. I don't have the time to play locally as often as I'd like! My only concern is that lack of coverage could reduce interest for many players - perhaps gradually.


I understand that this new is hard for the american legacy player. But for example, in France, we don't have any store like scg which organises national event so the legacy community had to develop the " Legacy's French cup" created by a small association of player, very active locally.The season is the whole year, there are events, open qualifications... It allowed the legacy to remain competitive. This!

Legacy prices itself on its organic origin. We didn't need SCG or WotC to push this down our throats. The game established itself solely on the passion of the players. It can survive in that manner too.

And of course other big stores are already setting up to fill the market void SCG is leaving behind. Really I'm not too worried at all.

Also, I personally don't care about big prizes. There needs to be some prize, to keep it exciting, but it can be very small and still be okay for me. If I want to play for serious profit I'll stick to poker - weaker opponents playing for bigger money in a structure which is harder to cheat! In MTG I only care about big prizes because they tend to bring out larger fields, which means I get more rounds of play.

[Hopo]

This!


The primary way SCG affected the European and apparently Canadian scene was the quality coverage. All the rival streams so far are lacking when you are used to the SCG quality. But I'm certain this will change.

Also, good job Canadians for electing such an awesome prime minister. I love the new science minister post as well as all other news from your parliament underlining the fact that this is, indeed, 2015 and not 1300 or even 1950's.

[ShaheenSoorani]

Told you they should have just banned top...


:D

[H]

Told you they should have just banned top...


:D

:laugh:

Most Random Comment of the Year, 2015: Winner, ShaheenSoorani.

Congratulations sir!

[ShaheenSoorani]

:laugh:

Most Random Comment of the Year, 2015: Winner, ShaheenSoorani.

Congratulations sir!

Haha I try friend. I just actually read the eight pages written after my DC 2nd in reference to my bannings article. Very interesting objections, but this site (for the most part) has a lot of intelligent debate on both sides of each topic. I haven't had time to get involved in forum discussions these days, however after reading a few threads it may be time to get more Legacy involved.

I think SCG will revive Legacy after a few years of Modern to add an excitement aspect as well as sell the Legacy cards they are currently stockpiling.

[H]

Haha I try friend. I just actually read the eight pages written after my DC 2nd in reference to my bannings article. Very interesting objections, but this site (for the most part) has a lot of intelligent debate on both sides of each topic. I haven't had time to get involved in forum discussions these days, however after reading a few threads it may be time to get more Legacy involved.

Well, we try, but B&R talk always ends up devolving into something of a bad place, because in reality Legacy is defined by overpowered cards. The question of what is too overpowered then starts to come down to personal preference. That being said, there are lots of cases to be made, but in the end I find (at least for me), it's best to just "work with what we've got" and leave the rest to Wizards. Sure, they might not make the "best" decisions every time, but I can live with letting them do it.

Everyone isn't ever going to agree really and I'm OK with that. As for getting more involved, I would say that I am sure you'd have great things to add to our community here, so I hope you do get involved a bit more! 'Blade development would probably love to have you, since your approach is rather different than most and your results can speak for themselves.



I think SCG will revive Legacy after a few years of Modern to add an excitement aspect as well as sell the Legacy cards they are currently stockpiling.

Well, things change. They changed last year and now this year. No doubt they change next year and the year after too. I'd tend to agree with you, but we'll have to wait and see what that really means for Legacy in the end.

[ShaheenSoorani]

Well, we try, but B&R talk always ends up devolving into something of a bad place, because in reality Legacy is defined by overpowered cards. The question of what is too overpowered then starts to come down to personal preference. That being said, there are lots of cases to be made, but in the end I find (at least for me), it's best to just "work with what we've got" and leave the rest to Wizards. Sure, they might not make the "best" decisions every time, but I can live with letting them do it.

Everyone isn't ever going to agree really and I'm OK with that. As for getting more involved, I would say that I am sure you'd have great things to add to our community here, so I hope you do get involved a bit more! 'Blade development would probably love to have you, since your approach is rather different than most and your results can speak for themselves.



Well, things change. They changed last year and now this year. No doubt they change next year and the year after too. I'd tend to agree with you, but we'll have to wait and see what that really means for Legacy in the end.

I do get teased about playing a very close list to the 2012 version, but that's because Legacy doesn't shift as much as people think. Stoneforge Mystic, JTMS, Brainstorm, Force, etc. will always have power in each format cycle. Sometimes I'm 42%, other times I'm 53% against most matchups, but I'll always have game. The important part of Legacy deckbuilding is to realize that Timmy to your right build RUG Delver and isn't going to spend 3k to jump ship to a new archetype. It stays the same for fiscal reasons more than anything else. I digress heavily...I'll take a look at the stoneblade forum lol.

[H]

I do get teased about playing a very close list to the 2012 version, but that's because Legacy doesn't shift as much as people think. Stoneforge Mystic, JTMS, Brainstorm, Force, etc. will always have power in each format cycle. Sometimes I'm 42%, other times I'm 53% against most matchups, but I'll always have game. The important part of Legacy deckbuilding is to realize that Timmy to your right build RUG Delver and isn't going to spend 3k to jump ship to a new archetype. It stays the same for fiscal reasons more than anything else. I digress heavily...I'll take a look at the stoneblade forum lol.

Hey, my Vintage deck of choice is nearly straight from 2010 and I still win pretty handily with it (at least as much as my little skill can let me). I agree with you though, we often tend to thing the tail wags the dog with respect to the meta. Not many people could really play Sneak and Show one week, Miracles the next, then Shardless BUG even if they actually wanted to and card availability is a major part of that.

BTW, threads can be fond here, EsperBlade (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21453-Deck-UWb-Esperblade/) or 'Blade Control (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-Deck-Blade-Control) (the threads are kind of used interchangeably), and Deathblade (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26350-Deck-DeathBlade) (not sure you'd be too interested in developing that though).

[ShaheenSoorani]

Just posted my most up-to-date esper list on the blade forum. Hope that helps!

[Zombie]

Not many people could really play Sneak and Show one week, Miracles the next, then Shardless BUG even if they actually wanted to and card availability is a major part of that.

Actually one of the best reasons to buy into BUG - you have a whole spectrum of different stances you can take with that card pool. Very easy to tune your 75 to prey heavily on eg. a fair meta or combo or go somewhere kind of inbetween. It's hard to imagine a healthy meta that you couldn't build a BUG goodstuff pile to beat.

[H]

Just posted my most up-to-date esper list on the blade forum. Hope that helps!

Great, I hope to see you around in the future too!


Actually one of the best reasons to buy into BUG - you have a whole spectrum of different stances you can take with that card pool. Very easy to tune your 75 to prey heavily on eg. a fair meta or combo or go somewhere kind of inbetween. It's hard to imagine a healthy meta that you couldn't build a BUG goodstuff pile to beat.

I tend to agree, which is why I usually play BUG (and have the FBB duals for it, :laugh:). Even when I play 'Blade, I like having Deathrite and Decay too.

While I think there are a bunch of us who can build a ton of different decks, I think we are a distinct minority really.

[thecrav]

in France, we don't have any store like scg which organises national event so the legacy community had to develop the " Legacy's French cup" created by a small association of player, very active locally.

This is cool but I don't think it's really an apt comparison to compare running US-wide and France-wide events (http://i.imgur.com/s661rLj.png)


I think SCG will revive Legacy after a few years of Modern to add an excitement aspect as well as sell the Legacy cards they are currently stockpiling.

I would be more inclined to believe this if they had held a single vintage open or even open side event* since canceling the P9 series :/

* They do hold vintage at their GPs which is fantastic. I've also been told that if I can find 7 more people, they'll happily run an 8 man at an open but that's not the same as an actual scheduled and promoted event.

[Quasim0ff]

This is cool but I don't think it's really an apt comparison to compare running US-wide and France-wide events (http://i.imgur.com/s661rLj.png)
How about comparing it to the BoM European Eternal tour then?

Obviously France and the entire states can't be compared. HOWEVER, saying legacy will die, because of SCG not supporting it is... Well, not really connected to the reality in any way. Legacy won't suffer, I'm fairly certain. Legacy has grown in Europe, after a few years or suffering, and we haven't had SCG to push it :)

[Krimson Viper]

Maybe it's about time people stopped overvaluing their Legacy cardboard and start valuing them at their actual worth. I'm tired of being asked an extra percentage in Puca Points or cards just because it's a Reserved List staple. SCG wasn't the only ones gouging players, but smaller shops and other players.

I'll sit back and wait for everything to drop. I have patience, especially now that I'm stepping away from game play for the foreseeable future.

[tescrin]

I'll sit back and wait for everything to drop. I have patience, especially now that I'm stepping away from game play for the foreseeable future.

So did people 5 years ago; when everything was 1/2 the price or less.
Part of what makes people buy in is that this stuff IS a collector's material and that the barrier to entry means everyone gets this "hazing" as they come in. Something being more Rare is attractive and I surmise it's part of what holds it together. More people continue to enter magic, and some of them are interested in playing Legacy; it only goes up until the magic audience starts going down; which is the opposite of what Hasbro works towards. Until they fail to make a compelling Standard/Casual game to a wide audience, Legacy will continue a slow growth and until the company has incentive to deflate it, they don't

Some guy building casual decks with Black Lotus isn't going to get budget casual games, because the power level is too brutal by comparison.
Further, customers in a market that they don't have to be in price gouge themselves. That's what supply and demand is. If demand is high and supply is low; the people who are willing to pay more get to actually have the thing.

[Admiral Nobeard]

I wonder: if Legacy is being dropped off by SCG and Wizards as a "profitable" format will that create a divide in the player base between diehard fans and those who drop off when there's not tournaments? If I remember, this has happened before, right before Type 1 split into Vintage and Legacy, and shaped the differences between them over time. Or is legacy going to become another version of Vintage to Wizards: some awe-inspiring format of days gone bye where people could win on turn one and you had to walk up a Snow-Covered Mountain both ways to get to tournaments and back home?

[maharis]

I would be more inclined to believe this if they had held a single vintage open or even open side event* since canceling the P9 series :/

* They do hold vintage at their GPs which is fantastic. I've also been told that if I can find 7 more people, they'll happily run an 8 man at an open but that's not the same as an actual scheduled and promoted event.

Vintage is a little different though. The card pool is so much smaller, especially for sanctioned tournaments. The Legacy IQ at SCG Charlotte, the same weekend as eternal weekend, was 80 people. The TOA Vintage Sunday event, within a 6 hour drive of the entire northeast and with no competition, had 100-something, and they were giving away power to the top 4 AND allowed proxies.

Don't get me wrong, it would be sweet to see more Vintage... but even people with unlimited money still have to locate cards and find time. There are 23 listings for Mishra's Workshop on TCGplayer and 190+ for Force of Will. And Shop isn't even the most expensive or hardest card to find, while Force has a single significant printing and is a 4 of in 70% of decks in Legacy.

SCG will probably run 3-4 legacy opens a year still, which all things considered really isn't so bad. I've cooled off a bit and I see why they're doing what they're doing. Honestly, I think the only reason any of us really freaked out, deep down, was fear about the value of our collections, but there is a clear market for profitable Legacy tournaments as long as you're not trying to do the same thing as SCG and that will keep up the value of our duals. (And Modern demand also props up a lot of other staples that are significant $$, like fetches, Goyf, LotV.)

[Krimson Viper]

So did people 5 years ago; when everything was 1/2 the price or less.
Part of what makes people buy in is that this stuff IS a collector's material and that the barrier to entry means everyone gets this "hazing" as they come in. Something being more Rare is attractive and I surmise it's part of what holds it together. More people continue to enter magic, and some of them are interested in playing Legacy; it only goes up until the magic audience starts going down; which is the opposite of what Hasbro works towards. Until they fail to make a compelling Standard/Casual game to a wide audience, Legacy will continue a slow growth and until the company has incentive to deflate it, they don't

Some guy building casual decks with Black Lotus isn't going to get budget casual games, because the power level is too brutal by comparison.
Further, customers in a market that they don't have to be in price gouge themselves. That's what supply and demand is. If demand is high and supply is low; the people who are willing to pay more get to actually have the thing.

Five years ago, we had a large circuit of Legacy. Casuals aren't going to pick these cards up at high prices. The price of the duals have already shrunk from last year, it will shrink further.

[tescrin]

Five years ago, we had a large circuit of Legacy. Casuals aren't going to pick these cards up at high prices. The price of the duals have already shrunk from last year, it will shrink further.
You're just misleading people with bad statistics.
Facts:
* The price doubled practically over night three years ago
* The spike was caused, in part, by the casual Commander market
* They've shrunk only about 15% over those three years ($30)
* SCG has reduced Legacy support every year
* Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Rishadan Port, Liliana of the Veil, Blood Moon, SoFaI, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.. have all seen 100% increases in recent years; so you're hardly saving money by holding off
* 4 years ago, blue duals were still $100+ in any combination.
* 6 years ago, commander hadn't spiked things at all
* The Euro has been down for a year, and the American Dollar has been going up in value for at least a year (relative to world economy.)

You know what also depreciates at 3-5% a year?
Money in your bank. The main difference is you can't play games with it and it never spikes.

You know what instantly loses 30%+ value when you buy it?
Video games, consoles, cars, models, furniture, tools, clothes, etc..

I'm not sure there's a safer investment outside of buying a house; which really depends on where you live, what you buy it for, etc..

[jrsthethird]

You know what also depreciates at 3-5% a year?
Money in your bank. The main difference is you can't play games with it and it never spikes.

You know what instantly loses 30%+ value when you buy it?
Video games, consoles, cars, models, furniture, tools, clothes, etc..

You know what instantly loses 100% value when you buy it? Taco Bell.

[tescrin]

You know what instantly loses 100% value when you buy it? Taco Bell.

This may be the best reason to not eat Taco Bell (or fast food) I've ever seen. :)

[Mr.C]

You're just misleading people with bad statistics.
Facts:
* The price doubled practically over night three years ago
* The spike was caused, in part, by the casual Commander market
* They've shrunk only about 15% over those three years ($30)
* SCG has reduced Legacy support every year
* Snapcaster, Tarmogoyf, Rishadan Port, Liliana of the Veil, Blood Moon, SoFaI, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.. have all seen 100% increases in recent years; so you're hardly saving money by holding off
* 4 years ago, blue duals were still $100+ in any combination.
* 6 years ago, commander hadn't spiked things at all
* The Euro has been down for a year, and the American Dollar has been going up in value for at least a year (relative to world economy.)

You know what also depreciates at 3-5% a year?
Money in your bank. The main difference is you can't play games with it and it never spikes.

You know what instantly loses 30%+ value when you buy it?
Video games, consoles, cars, models, furniture, tools, clothes, etc..

I'm not sure there's a safer investment outside of buying a house; which really depends on where you live, what you buy it for, etc..

You could also say Beanie Babies were a really safe investment. After all, their value was always rising. Until one day it didn't.

[tescrin]

You could also say Beanie Babies were a really safe investment. After all, their value was always rising. Until one day it didn't.
Do you argue against Stocks in the same fashion?
Or the housing market?

This is also a false equivalence.
* There aren't leagues of competitive players for beenie babies.

And just false from what I can tell:
* They seem to be fine according to this 2013 graph (http://www.valuemycollection.com/_/rsrc/1380853462731/bb/beanie2.1.jpg)
* Ebay still has beanie babies going for thousands of dollars; and a *loooot* of listings like that. I'm 1000 listings in (highest to lowest) and still encountering $1200 prices. @1600 or so listings in they are still the price of Moxen/Workshop


I'm just going to point out that I've been using facts, while the people "arguing" against what I'm saying have failed to supply any evidence what-so-ever nor have they provided rational arguments outside of "Yeah huh."

[Mr.C]

Do you argue against Stocks in the same fashion?
Or the housing market?

This is also a false equivalence.
* There aren't leagues of competitive players for beenie babies.

And just false from what I can tell:
* They seem to be fine according to this 2013 graph (http://www.valuemycollection.com/_/rsrc/1380853462731/bb/beanie2.1.jpg)
* Ebay still has beanie babies going for thousands of dollars; and a *loooot* of listings like that. I'm 1000 listings in (highest to lowest) and still encountering $1200 prices. @1600 or so listings in they are still the price of Moxen/Workshop


I'm just going to point out that I've been using facts, while the people "arguing" against what I'm saying have failed to supply any evidence what-so-ever nor have they provided rational arguments outside of "Yeah huh."

Yes.

Moxen and Workshops are rare and collectible. Shitty revised Duals aren't.

[Dark Ritual]

Yes.

Moxen and Workshops are rare and collectible. Shitty revised Duals aren't.

This. I've been watching revised duals and they have been dropping as of late. LGS listed a SP revised volcanic for 180 on ebay recently. That's a far cry from where volc was. See them dumping nonblue duals on ebay for very little (<$50). Duals are dropping as support for legacy dies out revised duals continue to drop in price. Moxen and workshops? Very rare and highly coveted by those who have the deep pockets to obtain them.

People said oh duals only go up, 'invest' in reserved list staples, etc. etc. now look where that notion has gone. At one point some sites were charging close to 400 for u. sea but that's certainly not going to happen again as duals are stagnating or decreasing in price. Commander players aren't the ones shelling out $100+ for revised duals of the blue variety. People would love to think that if legacy was completely dead that EDH players would jump at the chance to get revised u. sea for $110 but there's one big different between EDH and legacy in that you need a singleton copy of u sea in EDH whereas legacy demands 3-4x that. Imagine a world in which power had been reprinted in revised/exact same supply as dual lands. Power would be readily available and probably cheaper than duals if not for their iconic status because you would still need just 1 copy of black lotus and co. while duals are rarely 1 ofs. Well that's the case with duals fortunately and EDH players can always go without underground sea in their UB EDH deck as the effect it will have on the deck if you replace it with something else is minimal in a 99 card singleton format. While legacy isn't on life support yet see where the format is in 5 years. It was good while it lasted for me but I have moved on. Some people will cling onto it with their dying breath but not me. Not to mention the format has gotten steadily worse over the years as well as the game as a whole.

[thecrav]

A thing occurred to me the other day. Someone mentioned that SCG has the numbers on these events, especially money. There's one hugely important set of numbers that SCG has access to that would be virtually impossible to derive yourself - they have access to the DCI reports they submit.

So they know, for example, that the average standard player who drops after round 4 goes on to light $100 on fire playing win a box drafts while the average legacy player who scrubs out doesn't enroll in any more events. Given that their side events are significantly geared toward newer cards, I would not be at all surprised if looking at this data was a portion of decision making process for the change.

[Admiral_Arzar]

So they know, for example, that the average standard player who drops after round 4 goes on to light $100 on fire playing win a box drafts while the average legacy player who scrubs out doesn't enroll in any more events. Given that their side events are significantly geared toward newer cards, I would not be at all surprised if looking at this data was a portion of decision making process for the change.

This could be rectified by holding side events that aren't a fucking dumpster fire. I.E. when I forgot to pay the Tabernacle trigger on my whole tournament at GP: SeaTac, there were actually Legacy side events with decent prize payout to play. MOAT 4 LYFE.

[lordofthepit]

A thing occurred to me the other day. Someone mentioned that SCG has the numbers on these events, especially money. There's one hugely important set of numbers that SCG has access to that would be virtually impossible to derive yourself - they have access to the DCI reports they submit.

So they know, for example, that the average standard player who drops after round 4 goes on to light $100 on fire playing win a box drafts while the average legacy player who scrubs out doesn't enroll in any more events. Given that their side events are significantly geared toward newer cards, I would not be at all surprised if looking at this data was a portion of decision making process for the change.

That's a good point. But unless I'm missing something, that would have been even more reason for them to keep two separately one-day Opens.

[bruizar]

Link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/31833_.html

Main points

* Reducing number of events
* All but eliminating West Coast events
* PIQs (the two big side events) downgraded to "Classics"
* All side events pay out in prize wall tickets now pay out in prize wall tickets (and the conversion doesn't look good)
* Artists at all Open weekends
* Additional Vendors at all open weekends
* Winning an invitational qualifies you for the PT, including travel expenses.
* Legacy is removed from the invitationals

edit: missed some bullet points

No tournament worthy old cards left to inflate prices on, so support gone!

[ubernostrum]

That's a good point. But unless I'm missing something, that would have been even more reason for them to keep two separately one-day Opens.

While I strongly dislike the increasing cuts to Legacy at SCG events... the current two-day structure came of necessity. Maybe it's different for players, but toward the end of the one-day Open period (when it was really "Standard Open swiss rounds on Saturday, maybe quarterfinals too, rest of it Sunday morning") it was just destroying staff. I've done eleven rounds of swiss in a single day. I hope never to do that again.

Though I'm about to move to the west coast, so maybe I'll just never get to judge an Open again.

[testing32]

While I strongly dislike the increasing cuts to Legacy at SCG events... the current two-day structure came of necessity. Maybe it's different for players, but toward the end of the one-day Open period (when it was really "Standard Open swiss rounds on Saturday, maybe quarterfinals too, rest of it Sunday morning") it was just destroying staff. I've done eleven rounds of swiss in a single day. I hope never to do that again.

Though I'm about to move to the west coast, so maybe I'll just never get to judge an Open again.

Or you could cap the event

[clavio]

I was 50/50 on doing it anyways, but this new announcement = I'm definitely selling out of Legacy after the Seattle GP. There's no point in sitting on thousands of $$$ just to hit up weekly events. Peace y'all. It was fun while it lasted.

You should probably wait until after New Years, this is usually a good time to buy and a not so good time to sell.

[Negator77']

Well, they listened to at least a part of the feedback.... Store credit in the form of gift cards can be taken instead of selecting from the prize wall.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32037_SCGINVI-Reminders-And-Announcement.html

[lordofthepit]

Well, they listed to at least a part of the feedback.... Store credit in the form of gift cards can be taken instead of selecting from the prize wall.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32037_SCGINVI-Reminders-And-Announcement.html

The one good decision SCG has made in over a year.

[BenBleiweiss]

Well, they listened to at least a part of the feedback.... Store credit in the form of gift cards can be taken instead of selecting from the prize wall.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32037_SCGINVI-Reminders-And-Announcement.html


Please note: Store credit can be selected as an option from the Prize Wall. The cool thing is that we're giving the Store Credit in the form of Gift Cards, and we've added the technology to our sales booth to be able to take SCG Gift Cards (physical ones) as payment.

Pulling a random number out of a hat, but let's say you end up with $60 in Store Credit on your gift card. You can spend $30 at the booth that day, take the card home, put the code, and transfer the remaining $30 in credit to your online account! This way, if we don't have exactly what you want at the booth, you'll be able to take that credit and spend it on our website at a time of your choosing.

- Ben

[Technics]

Please note: Store credit can be selected as an option from the Prize Wall. The cool thing is that we're giving the Store Credit in the form of Gift Cards, and we've added the technology to our sales booth to be able to take SCG Gift Cards (physical ones) as payment.

Pulling a random number out of a hat, but let's say you end up with $60 in Store Credit on your gift card. You can spend $30 at the booth that day, take the card home, put the code, and transfer the remaining $30 in credit to your online account! This way, if we don't have exactly what you want at the booth, you'll be able to take that credit and spend it on our website at a time of your choosing.

- Ben

This is a vast improvment to the normal "prize wall system". SCG gets a touch rap a lot on here but at least they do listen and make some nice changes. That's a very positive change.

[iamajellydonut]

SCG gets a touch rap a lot on here but at least they do listen and make some nice changes. That's a very positive change.

But it's a change that should have already been policy. You shouldn't really need feedback to tell you that circus peanuts and ham sandwiches are not acceptable substitutes for cash equivalents.

[thecrav]

I like the idea of gift cards - it's probably the easiest way to convert prize wall to actual cash.

[jrsthethird]

But it's a change that should have already been policy. You shouldn't really need feedback to tell you that circus peanuts and ham sandwiches are not acceptable substitutes for cash equivalents.

But after a long day of grinding side events, someone might actually want circus peanuts and a ham sandwich.

[anwei]

This is great news, and makes these worth actually playing. They screwed up before, and credit (if not cash) should have been an option for any tournament this size, but far better to have listened than not.

Additionally, I certainly don't want SCG running non-viable Legacy events, losing money, and further withdrawing support, so, I think we'll benefit from hedged investment where lower attendance puts them out credit (where their cost is obviously lower on singles) instead of losing cash.

Do we know the conversion rates yet?

[Nocley]

It's 100 tix for $25. Means top8 equal to $450 credit

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Barook]

It's 100 tix for $25. Means top8 equal to $450 credit
Which isn't bad overall compared to the joke offer before. It would result in 6k $ in store credit instead of 5k $ they paid out before. Top8 placements are worthless, though, aside from bragging rights.

[lordofthepit]

Which isn't bad overall compared to the joke offer before. It would result in 6k $ in store credit instead of 5k $ they paid out before. Top8 placements are worthless, though, aside from bragging rights.

I have to give SCG credit as this is still a pretty generous payment, but it should be noted that $5k cash is equivalent to $6250 credit in a more liquid form (since you straight up have the option of taking credit at a 25% premium). That being said, despite the lower payout, this is still an excellent reason to play in the Classics if SCG ever swings by your local area. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for their Opens or Invitationals: I would not even wake up to watch one from my computer, let alone take a trip to the local convention center or travel for one.