Herald of Kozilek Combo

[Wobbles The Goose]

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has posted anything about this, but then again it's a pretty terrible idea.

Herald of Kozilek is a new Helm of Awakening for the 2xSensei's Divining Top combo.

I'm not really sure what to do with this information. I mean LSV 3-1ed a daily with a U/R Helm combo deck a while back:

Lands (19)
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Snow-Covered Island
Creatures (6)
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Trinket Mage
Spells (39)
4 Helm of Awakening
4 Grapeshot
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Counterbalance
2 Snap
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
3 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


But he mentioned that he wasn't thrilled with how the deck came together, comparing it to a worse Miracles. Herald doesn't do the kind of intuition for AK tricks that helm does though, so it isn't as simple as sliding the card in place of the helms.

The archetype has also received two new "win conditions". Altar of the Brood you can tutor up with trinket mage. Abbot of Keral Keep or anything else with prowess can serve as an infinitely large creature. Maybe the combo has a home in a more tempo oriented deck?

Anyway, here's where I'm at now:

3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Islands
2 Seat of the Synod
15 lands

4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Herald of Kozilek
3 Trinket Mage
11 Creatures

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Locket of Yesterdays
1 Altar of the Brood
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mox Opal
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
31 Spells


/mad late night ravings

[Namida]

It looks like it might be rough on the mana, but wouldn't Monastery Mentor be a better Prowess creature than the Swiftspear? Monastery Mentor is a legitimate threat even if you don't find any of your cost reducers. Swiftspear just doesn't seem like much of a threat outside of being a combo piece against opponents who don't play any chump blockers.

[Wobbles The Goose]

I'm with you. The problem I see would be that mentor is another 3 drop that would make it very card to combo off by turn 3. Swiftspear comes down on turns 1 or 2 and might let you play a cantrip. The chump blocker problem is a real one, but you're probably fighting removal/other problems out of those decks. It's certainly a trade off. I could definitely see more Altar of the Broods in those slots, but then you're really giving up on a plan B.

Plus Swiftspear doesn't involve another color, which is nice.

Another card that's a win condition would be Riddlesmith. Once the loop starts, you can loot into Altar of the Brood and counterspells. Something to try:


2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Islands
3 Seat of the Synod
15 lands

3 Riddlesmith
3 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Herald of Kozilek
3 Trinket Mage
11 Creatures

4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Locket of Yesterdays
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Opal
3 Counterbalance
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
31 Spells

[jrsthethird]

Jhessian Thief?

Has the 3-drop problem but doesn't force a third color. Ophidian effect can help to find other combo pieces.

[Wobbles The Goose]

There quite a few two mana kill cards that work:

Grapeshot (hard to counter, 2 mana, unblockable)
Abbot (Card advantage, 2 mana, Plan B)
Swiftspear (1 mana, Plan B, Haste)
Jeskai Elder (2 mana, looting, Plan B)
Brainfreeze (hard to counter, 2 mana, unblockable)
Riddlesmith (2 mana, looting, Plan B)

I like Abbot/Swiftspear because there are games where you just want to be aggressive and try to ride Counterbalance/Top to win. Failing that, I think Riddlesmith with more artifacts (which might be necessary for Mox Opal anyway) would be a more combo focused way to go. Or you could split the difference and use Swiftspear and Riddlesmith

[Tylert]

WHy playing herald of kozilek over helm, and why not play both?
I mean you are replacing a 2 mana hard to remove card, by a three mana easier to remove harder to cast card.

[Wobbles The Goose]

That's a fair question.

The problems with helm are that

1) Helm is symmetrical, and there are certainly decks in the format that can take advantage of that. Painter, Storm, Miracles all have more expensive spells that really get appreciate when you're spending a card to improve their deck.

2) Helm doesn't lend itself to alternate win conditions. Watch LSV's videos of the daily he 3-1's http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-legacy-helm-combo/. Most of the games he wins are mostly on the back of Snapcaster and Trinket Mage beat down. At that point, you're just playing a worse version of Miracles. Because you're dedicating 4 slots to a combo peace creature rather than a do nothing artifact, at least you have a plan for putting pressure on an opponent.

3) I think you could play both, but the problem is that multiples of the cost reduction effect don't really help you. You only need one Helm or Herald to go off, and there isn't a lot that really benefits having a helm in play. I mean, sure it's nice to reduce the cost of abbot and trinket mage, but I'm not sure that's worth multiple slots.

Herald is more vulnerable to removal, specifically Swords and Terminus. For Swords you have Counterbalance, and you can combo off "with haste" in a fair number of situations with either build of the deck. The real problem is Abrupt Decay, but that's going to hit either combo piece. Personally, I don't think those concerns outweigh the problems with helm. Locket of Yesterdays is probably a pipedream, although it's a bit more playable in the Riddlesmith build.

[IlCannone]

If you want to stick to the Herald, why don't you consider Imperial Recruiter?

[Mr. Safety]

Fat ass at 2/4 for blocking aside, how is herald better than Etherium Sculptor for combo-ing out?

[Wobbles The Goose]

I like Imperial Recruiter a ton. I think there might be a build out there with Imp. Recruiter, Herald, Painter, and Grindstone. The problem is that then you lose a lot of the room for anything else like cantrips or prowess.

The other problem is that while Recruiter can grab Herald, it can't get a top. Tops are really the limiting factor because you need two of them to go off. You can set up a Recruiter>Trinket>Top chain, but that's WAY to slow. I think I'd rather just play cantrips.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Etherium Sculptor is a great catch. It dies to all burn, REB/Pyro and artifact removal, but beyond that it's a solid inclusion. It'd probably depend on how many punishing fires you expect to see, but the ability to win more on turn 2 seems awesome.

[lixilisk]

Would cloud key be viable since it is the same casting cost as Herald?

Or is there something i am missing?

[tescrin]

Couldn't you use Lion's Eye Diamond with draw triggers on the stack? The idea being that you could sift through your deck, pull LEDs, then use them to cast into your storm card of choice (probably 1 Tendrils, 1 Burning wish with a EtW, Grapeshot, and other stuff in the side.)

Find an LED (step 1)
Play LED
Draw with Top (Top and Riddle Smith triggers on stack into Top + random card)
pop LED
Draw 2
Goto (step 1 whenever you find an LED)

Do this until you find the storm card of choice (or burning wish) and win right now.


The advantages to doing this are that you don't have to rely on some doof with prowess being around and know that you'll get 9-12 mana before you have to quit drawing.

The win conditions may look like:
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Burning Wish
1 Storm card of Choice (if you wish)

combine this with 3-4 LEDs and you've increased your resilience to removal and the vulnerability of your combo. You could even just double-up and run etherium sculpter at that rate.


EDIT: In fact.. even just using Lotus Petals would give you a few mana to work with; knowing you'd get a minimum 2 out of 4 as you draw your deck, you could just always go the grapeshot route without having LED complicate things.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Cloud Key is also a potential combo piece. It has all the combo-y upside of Herald without any of the creature disadvantages. It would certainly fit well a deck more like LSV's where there's less of a dedicated aggro backup plan.

Tescrin- oh how I wish Riddlesmith triggered when the artifact entered the battlefield. That would make it so much easier to go off. Unfortunately, it triggers when you cast the card, so there's no way to draw the top with only one. And if you have two tops going, it still doesn't net you cards. One top just draws the other top. I think that's why you want a win condition that you can stick before you start going off. Otherwise, you're looking at at least 5 mana on the turn you need to go off. The storm cards/wishes just wind up sitting in your hand and costing a ton of mana.

[tescrin]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. I'll assume you're correct, but let me attempt to draw out the stack for a moment.

2 Tops in play with Riddlesmith and -1 CMC card
-Draw with top
-Draw with the first top into second top, play it, loot a card
repeat

As long as you have 2 cards in hand when you start, you should be able to loot one of them into an LED, and the other into a grapeshot. If we find a way to draw an extra card here and there we could generate minor CA and instead go a bit bigger. I'll stew and Gatherer a little bit and see if there's an obvious way to draw cards. If you have the extra 2 mana, you can just loot your way to grapeshot instead (if you have 1 card. This is the "untap, upkeep, draw" style win)

You still only need one grapeshot in the deck for this (or 2 if you're being safe)


On the assumption I'm wrong
Molten Nursery seems an ok way to win then. Effectively it has haste, can kill stuff while you durdle potentially, though this may require more of an "Eggs" gameplan (cast garbage artifacts that cantrip, use the mana you pay into them to pay for the mana ability and cycle your deck.)