[Article] No Reserved List Legacy

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

[Paul7926]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.

[GundamGuy]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

Isn't this basically just modern? Or is the difference that you'd allow commons and uncommons from sets that rares are on the reserve list?

Also when you say "get worse", I think you really mean stop being decks. Painter Stratagies also stop being a deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As somebody who primarily plays fringe decks, this would completely kill Legacy for me. The loss of City of Traitors alone would be crippling, not to mention Aluren, Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Grim Monolith and a bunch of other cards that fuel my favorite decks. The format would basically be Modern except that I would still have to deal with bullshit like Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm which thankfully are not legal in the latter format. This change would barely impact blue decks but would weaken or kill pretty much every alternative strategy. The author's contempt for a lot of these strategies was obvious ("no great loss" etc.).

[Xerlic]

I like Saffron, but I disagree with a lot of points he makes with his article.

For one, it's far too early to declare Legacy "dead". Sure WotC's support has been downright bad and there is a void left by SCG not supporting the format. However, that doesn't mean there won't be people to fill that need on the local level. Tales of Adventure and TOGIT are already doing so in the northeast.

Secondly, the way he casually states that losing the dual lands would be "least impactful changes to the format" is ludicrous. Just swap duals for shocks one-for-one? That should really work for all the Delver decks that run Daze.

[Sloshthedark]

= basicaly killing the identity and every fun element in legacy

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.

Well the author is mostly coming from a finance background, so it solves the "problem" of there being no financial incentive for Wizards or tournament organizers to support the format. Legacy players are way less likely to buy new product, which means Wizards doesn't directly profit from the format's existence. And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.

[Paul7926]

As a European I'm starting to get a little bored of the hyperbole that states "SCG stop holding legacy events = Death of Legacy". It's just not true.

The format will live or die based on support for it. If enough people want to play then TO's will hold events. Maybe WotC stops holding Legacy events, so what, that just means that TO's can run Legacy with a certain amount of proxies and even more people can play. WotC made the cards and WotC sold us the cards (well they sold them to someone and we probably bought them 12th hand or whatever) and now we own the cards we can use them how we want. We can attend or organize whatever we want. We don't need SCG to hold our hand and tell us not to be afraid of the dark.

Worst case I can see is that playing Legacy will not get you qualified for the Pro-Tour. Well guess what, that will probably be standard anyway so why would I want to play in it?

If I'm missing something important then I'm more than prepared to listen to arguments/logic/facts to explain that to me but I just don't buy into the 'sky is falling' mantra I'm hearing all the time.

[apple713]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.


you'd end up with an unbalanced modernesque format

Believe it or not the fact of having to use shock lands changes things. Taking 2 damage or slowing down play is noticeable in a format like legacy where things are incredibly powerful. Waste landing an ETB tapped shock land you get no use out of it. If you want to use it you shock yourself. Over the course of a game 3-4 shocks adds up and aggressive decks have an advantage.

The format would be better than modern currently but still not legacy. It would have to be balanced again.

[Paul7926]

And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.

What I'm unclear about (and I'm no TO so I have no facts) is if that statement is even true. I would assume that if x people want to play Legacy and y people want to play modern then a TO would do better to host the tournament for whichever of x or y was greater. It is therefore down to the Legacy players to support, nurture and grow the player base for the format they love to ensure they are the chosen format.

I accept that price is a barrier to entry but it's only a barrier. If someone really wants to play Legacy they will cope with using shock whilst they save for duals, they will cope with not running as many Wasteland as the list probably should, they will cope with too few FoW for a while. However to get someone to the point of doing that they need to be allowed to see and play Legacy and know that there are a core of players locally who are not going to vanish overnight.

I think the point that I'm probably making badly is that if Legacy players want the format to survive and grow then it's Legacy players that have the power to affect that by being active in their local community, being inclusive and supportive of people interested in the format, attending as many events as they reasonably can to show support (regardless of the EV of the payout structure). If, as a community, we sit back, don't attend anything, don't support the format we can't expect a company to do that for us. Companies need to make money (not just want but need) and they will support competitive rock-paper-scissors if there is a profit in it.

It's down to the community, not SCG, not WotC, not the RL and not straw clutching banning or format changes.

I mean EDH survives. There are no EDH Pro tours, or GP's or PTQ's but the players like it so they play it so it survives.

[nedleeds]

What a waste of text. I can't believe I'm saying it ... but ... go play modern. If you want to tackle the issue of new players financially getting into Legacy then debunk the myth of cheap standard, the fact that half a dozen modern staples are also legacy staples and they are $80-100. "In Modern, if Tarmogoyf gets too expensive" ... Goyf is $146? There were $150 Underground Seas at GP Atlanta. I have no sympathy for a modern barnacle crying that Legacy is too expensive if he's spending $125 on a non reserved list quad reprinted Lhurgoyf.

Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

- From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

[Whitefaces]

Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

- From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link. (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

[maharis]

Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link. (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.

I agree with what many responses to this article have said. The reserved cards may be few, but many are what makes Legacy the format it is. Honestly, I would rather see the duals banned alone than LED/Aluren/Mox Diamond type cards. Shocks would make an approximation of the format without taking out some of the more charming quirks from MTG history. Of course, banning duals would rock the secondary market so much as to make their presence on the RL pointless.

There is no solution to growing Legacy (at least to Wizards' and TOs' definition of "growing") that doesn't involve killing the RL or doing something that the risk-averse clowns in R&D would never do (like push the RW color combination to make Plateau a strong card, or print some sort of alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)

[Cire]

alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)

How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

Land - [Type]
T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

and

Land
T: sac, fetch a [Type].

And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.

[apple713]

None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.



Those prices are currently how the system functions but if you eliminate modern and replace it with legacy the cost of led skyrockets as there are now twice as many people looking for it. It probably wouldnt double but the demand increases significantly.

One option for creating similar duals might be "rain of tears" type lands that are fetchable.

[hymnyou]

nedleeds nailed it.

[Whitefaces]

None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

Ah, my mistake! Then yes, I totally agree with him.

[maharis]

How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

Land - [Type]
T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

and

Land
T: sac, fetch a [Type].

And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.

Like I said, that's R&D's problem. They've tooled around with snow and legendary duals so maybe the RL isn't as draconian as they make it sound with the references to Reverberate.

The leaked card Waste lacks a basic land type which means they missed the clear opportunity to do this:

Waste
Basic land - Waste
(T: Add <> to your mana pool)

Wastefetch
Land
T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Wastefetch: Search your library for a Waste card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

Wasteisland
Land - Waste Island
(T: Add <> or U to your mana pool)

And so on...

[Varal]

This is pretty similar to the reasoning Wizards had when they created Modern. There is also the myth that Wizards doesn't profit from Legacy and Vintage. Some reasons why it's false:

Its players still buy cards from new sets. Whether they buy packs or not is irrelevant, it will still increase total packs sales.
It gives value to cards after they rotate from Standard, get banned from Modern or get printed in supplemental products.
It helps their business partners, game stores, make money from the second hand market. Thriving business partners is a key part to WotC business model.
Really expensive cards make people more easily spend money on cheaper cards. It is similar to why casinos have $500 or $1000 slot machines even if almost no one ever use them.
There is a segment of players that only play Legacy or Vintage. Catering to them is better than losing customers.
Some players play Legacy and also high earning formats like Commander, Modern and Prereleases. They might not particîpate in those if it wasn't from Legacy.


Wizards also doesn't want any format to eclipse Standard. They've been pushing it since 1995 and will always do. The question isn't how to make Legacy more profitable for Wizards but how to make Magic more profitable for them.

[Mr.C]

I like it. It's like Overextended with Force of Will, Wasteland, and some janky stuff.

If anyone wants to start brewing, I'm in.

[Blastoderm]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/no-reserved-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

Sounds dumb. Format would become a slightly more powerful modern. But modern is a slightly more powerful standard which is why it blows. Just remove the reserved list, I'd rather play this game than watch my cards collect dust.

Edit: Lets say for the sake of argument Legacy dies. Would these collectors/hoarders be able to move any of their collection? Would they still hold value? It makes more sense to me that they remove the reserved list and make something like Legacy Masters. Drafting that would be awesome and it would get more people into the game. It wouldn't affect prices that much, just look at Tarmogoyf, Clique and Dark confidant.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

[Admiral_Arzar]

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

Therapy, Pyromancer, and Probe having a steamy threesome would spaff all over the face of Modern and initiate the apocalypse.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You say that like its a bad thing

[thecrav]

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

I just ran through the sets real quick and from Masques to 8th, here's the major stuff I saw that would be added. I'm amazed how much more like legacy-lite the format would look:

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate

Nemesis
Lin Sivvi (and the rest of her gang)
Daze
Submerge
Massacre
Flame Rift

Invasion
Ana, Ceta, Necra, Raka, Dega as the names for the wedges
Fact or Fiction
Sterling Grove

Planeshift:
Vindicate

Apocalypse
Fire//Ice

Odyssey
Careful Study
Standstill
Entomb
Tainted Pact

Torment
Many cards key to building a Madness deck
Chainers Edict
Cabal Coffers

Judgement
Golden Wish
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
Envelop
Mental Note
Cabal Therapy
Worldgorger Dragon
Riftstone Portal

Onslaught
Allied fetch lands years earlier
Astral Slide and the things required to make that a deck
True Believer
Chain of Vapor
Riptide Lab
Goblin Piledriver years earlier
Goblin Sharpshooter
Slice and Dice
Birchlore Rangers
Enchantress’s Presence

Legions
Gempalm Incinerator

Scourge
Decree of Justice
Brain Freeze
Mind’s Desire
Stifle
Tendrils of Agony
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sulfuric Vortex
Wirewood Symbiote

And that's just the cards that I noticed in a quick run. I'm sure there are some I missed and I wasn't even looking for synergies that might exist.

Goblins and Elves get huge boosts.
Control gets Brainstorm and Counterspell

Combo gets... well, an ungodly number of things.

Tempo gets Daze, Stifle, and Submerge

Foodchain as well as possibly Madness, Rebels, and Cycling.dec all become possible additions to the metagame.

[Admiral_Arzar]

DEED THAT IS PERNICIOUS

That is all.

[Barook]

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate
There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

[twndomn]

There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

In this Legacy-lite format, DnT and Merfolk are so~~ strong, follow by Miracles (runs enough Basic), follow by Burn. Kill off combo cards like LED and Cradle. Without Null Rod..., everyone runs needle to stop Vial and SDT?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

Given the quality and type of cards being introduced into the format, I doubt the banlist would remain the same. Better disruption (Counterspell and Cabal Therapy) means it's less safe to play Combo and Linear strategies and better to play a reactionary/disruptive deck.

No reserved list legacy seems poor for D&T, Tempo decks with daze basically aren't playable with shocklands (as they are currently built) which compromise a large part of D&T positive match ups in the field right now. We'd likely see more infect and miracles, as the 2 damage basically means nothing to infect as they are aiming to win in the area of turn 2-4 and Miracles can be built with Battle Lands and Mystic Gate and barely notice the difference.

[Zombie]

In this Legacy-lite format, DnT and Merfolk are so~~ strong, follow by Miracles (runs enough Basic), follow by Burn. Kill off combo cards like LED and Cradle. Without Null Rod..., everyone runs needle to stop Vial and SDT?

Stony Silence is a card.

[GundamGuy]

Given the quality and type of cards being introduced into the format, I doubt the banlist would remain the same. Better disruption (Counterspell and Cabal Therapy) means it's less safe to play Combo and Linear strategies and better to play a reactionary/disruptive deck.


I on the otherhand don't think Counterspell and Cabal Therapy would do enough to prevent the flood of combo that would come from this. Lack of FoW seems like a big problem. Sure Cabal Therapy (and maybe Counterspell... maybe) would be format warping for Modern, but I don't think they do enough against all the other legacy quality cards introduced.

[Mr.C]

That said, though, I'd wholeheartedly support a Legacy Restricted format, in which the Reserved List is restricted instead of banned.

[Pdingo]

No reserved List?! I call it Bullshit...Don't play legacy if you don't want to buy the cards.^^

[barcode]

So Modern+. No thanks.

[nedleeds]

Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link. (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy)

I didnt list any reserved list cards.

edit: scrolled down

[nedleeds]

I just ran through the sets real quick and from Masques to 8th, here's the major stuff I saw that would be added. I'm amazed how much more like legacy-lite the format would look:

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate

Nemesis
Lin Sivvi (and the rest of her gang)
Daze
Submerge
Massacre
Flame Rift

Invasion
Ana, Ceta, Necra, Raka, Dega as the names for the wedges
Fact or Fiction
Sterling Grove

Planeshift:
Vindicate

Apocalypse
Fire//Ice

Odyssey
Careful Study
Standstill
Entomb
Tainted Pact

Torment
Many cards key to building a Madness deck
Chainers Edict
Cabal Coffers

Judgement
Golden Wish
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
Envelop
Mental Note
Cabal Therapy
Worldgorger Dragon
Riftstone Portal

Onslaught
Allied fetch lands years earlier
Astral Slide and the things required to make that a deck
True Believer
Chain of Vapor
Riptide Lab
Goblin Piledriver years earlier
Goblin Sharpshooter
Slice and Dice
Birchlore Rangers
Enchantress’s Presence

Legions
Gempalm Incinerator

Scourge
Decree of Justice
Brain Freeze
Mind’s Desire
Stifle
Tendrils of Agony
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sulfuric Vortex
Wirewood Symbiote

And that's just the cards that I noticed in a quick run. I'm sure there are some I missed and I wasn't even looking for synergies that might exist.

Goblins and Elves get huge boosts.
Control gets Brainstorm and Counterspell

Combo gets... well, an ungodly number of things.

Tempo gets Daze, Stifle, and Submerge

Foodchain as well as possibly Madness, Rebels, and Cycling.dec all become possible additions to the metagame.

No wastelands, plus Sandstone Needle is big.

[lordofthepit]

Instead of replacing a great format (Legacy) with a diluted "Modern plus" because of the implications of the Reserved List in the distant future, why not replace a format that is shitty right now (Modern) with this No Reserved List Eternal format instead?

This was a rhetorical question, but that possibility wasn't considered in the article because it's for a website geared to financiers/speculators rather than to players.

[Dice_Box]

Personally, the loss of Mox Diamond and Dual Lands would end my current enjoyment in Legacy.

We all agree the list is bad, but you don't solve the issue by cutting out so much of the format. Because you take out the soul of the format if you so drastically change its core.

[Crimhead]

Because you take out the soul of the format if you so drastically change its core.
This. Virtually all the most interesting decks - those that can exist only in a format like Legacy - will get hurt or killed. Lands, painter, Elves, MUD, as well as fringier decks like Belcher, High Tide, Pox, Enchantress and more.

Dice nailed it - this would suck the soul out of Legacy

[Ronald Deuce]

Read the article the other day, and frankly, it was one of the stupidest things I'd read in some time. And I read the news.

What would banning everything on the reserved list actually solve? Seems the author was flailing for a nice, arbitrary designator for a group of cards that would include Stuff He(?) Doesn't Like, and that's how the reserved list came up.

Let's be honest: there are specific cards that define Legacy play and have always defined Legacy play (and competitive magic in the eternal formats) for as long as the format's been around. THOSE CARDS AREN'T ALL ON THE RESERVED LIST. Force of Will isn't on the list, yet Grandmother Sengir is. So the reserved list is not a guide for determining a card's playability, and thus, the author's argument doesn't really have any bearing on the gameplay of the format, and everything about gameplay that he says subsequent to his suggestion is nonsensical speculation.

If people complain about the price of the cards on the reserved list, and if the author's primary concern is economic in nature, why doesn't he realize that banning those cards not only would hurt collectors, but would cause the prices of "the next best things" to skyrocket? Storytime: I moved halfway across the country not long ago and sold about ten thousand junk commons I'd accumulated over my sixteen years of playing the game. I had, at the time, seven to nine copies of Serum Visions, that mediocre cantrip nobody cared about beause Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, etc. are cards that exist. I threw all but a playset of the Visions into repacks for our family's glorified garage-sale, thinking I couldn't move them on e-bay without paying as much in shipping as they were worth, and I didn't think more about it. Until everyone realized, a couple of months later, that bans had made Serum Visions the best cantrip in Modern, and the price quintupled.

Yeah, Serum Visions isn't anything like Candelabra or Imperial Recruiter or the duals, but I tell that story to ask these questions: what would happen to the price of shocklands if duals were banned in Legacy? They'd go up. Maybe way up. Would the increase in the price of said shocks help people get into the format? No. Would it hurt the odds that prospective players would get into Modern because of the collateral effect of increasing prices? Yes. Would banning duals have an adverse effect on the people who are Legacy stalwarts? Yes. Why? Because the price of their duals would go down and many people, I think, would take such bannings as a whipcrack to the jimmies. Would it "solve the problem with Legacy" to ban duals, City of Traitors, etc.? No, and there never WAS a problem, at least as far as gameplay is concerned.

I've complained about card prices for years, and I won't argue that it's not tough to sink hundreds of dollars into the land-base for a deck that's otherwise pretty similar to its incarnation in other formats. But if anything is killing Legacy, it's the stupidity of people who don't seem to notice that Tarmogoyf is more expensive than most of the dual lands, not the price of said dual lands or the fact that they're not coming back.

[jrsthethird]

I've complained about card prices for years, and I won't argue that it's not tough to sink hundreds of dollars into the land-base for a deck that's otherwise pretty similar to its incarnation in other formats. But if anything is killing Legacy, it's the stupidity of people who don't seem to notice that Tarmogoyf is more expensive than most of the dual lands, not the price of said dual lands or the fact that they're not coming back.

Modern prices are pretty huge too. It's really the Shocks vs. Duals that keeps the price significantly below Legacy, when you look at averages. Sure, we have $150+ fringe cards like Recruiter, Cradle, Chains, Tabernacle, Eureka, etc. (I use the word fringe because you can play the format without investing in those cards, even if the card is only included in a single DTB), but most of the staple non-land cards are cheaper than Goyfs. If you are a player with a sizable Modern collection, you can trade your Goyfs and Lilianas for FOWs and Wastelands (and more) and have an entire Delver deck without the 6 dual lands necessary. Might have to pick up some C/U cards like Daze but that's negligible (and compensated by the value gained in trading down Goyfs/Lilis).

But a counterpoint to your argument is that Legacy has a defined cap on the number of possible players due to the Reserved List. It makes complete sense that Wizards and SCG are pulling back support, since supporting Legacy at the same level that they support Modern or Standard is completely impossible without removing the Reserved List (or at least making an exception for dual lands). I don't know the exact numbers on print runs of ABU/Revised, but the number of dual lands in existence is finite. There is nothing killing Legacy per se, but the Reserved List effectively caps its growth.

[barcode]

Modern prices are pretty huge too. It's really the Shocks vs. Duals that keeps the price significantly below Legacy, when you look at averages.

That is only because WoTC reprinted the shocklands en masse. Remember when shocklands were >$40 each and climbing? Remember when Thoughtseize was >$70 each and climbing?

This is the lesson they learned with Chronicles. Now, years later, the shock land prices are still in the dumps because countless million shocklands were printed. It's just now they don't give a fuck about Modern collectors.

[Blastoderm]

....

It's just now they don't give a fuck about Modern collectors.

And why should they?

[Dice_Box]

They shouldn't. Personally, I want to see a wide reprinting of all the Modern staples. I don't feel a staple in a format designed to get around the reserved list should cost 200 dollars.

I would also like them to bite the bullet and admit that Modern is now above the power level they wished for the format and print direct to Modern cards. The idea that you can move from Standard straight into Modern is a joke and that old excuse holds no water in my opinion.

[jrsthethird]

They could introduce them into the Modern format with the next Modern Masters.

The problem with letting sets like Commander and Conspiracy be Modern-legal is that you can't distinguish original cards made for the set with non-Modern reprints. If Commander and Conspiracy were made Modern legal, we'd get Brainstorm in Modern. And you think Flusterstorm is expensive now?

[barcode]

And why should they?

Magic is a collectible card game. Why should people collect the cards or buy packs if there is no security in their secondary value?

[TsumiBand]

Magic is a collectible card game. Why should people collect the cards or buy packs if there is no security in their secondary value?

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

[barcode]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

You should salty. Are you salty?

[Mr.C]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

There seems to be a clear divide in opinion between people who paid $20 for Seas and people who paid $200 for Seas.

[TsumiBand]

You should salty. Are you salty?

I'm not salty but I find fault in the argument and it occurs to me that *demanding* a return on this alleged "investment" is a weirdly vicious kind of entitlement. It's so beyond absurd that honestly it surprises me that it was ever dignified with an actual response. For my part I couldn't care less if I ever even own so much as a Taiga. Your salt detector went off because I can't believe anyone would say "I deserve security on my kid's game purchase" and actually mean it. Such utter horse ass.

[UseLess]

There seems to be a clear divide in opinion between people who paid $20 for Seas and people who paid $200 for Seas.

I paid around $100-150 for my blue duals and I really wish they would starting to print all legacy staples massively. I don't give a crap about the value of my cardboard. I'm trying to play legacy, not swim in a cardboard-filled vault. What I do care about is if all my friends join me to legacy tournaments because now they are willing as well to invest a much more reasonable price for their decks instead of the rediculous prices we have now.

The divide is probably more clear between people who enjoy and play the format and those who just have $$ in as eyes. If money is that important, get a proper job.

[sdematt]

Cards are expensive, I agree. Shelling out 2k is not chump change for most.

I'm in support of reprinting cards not on the reserve list, and bringing those prices down into affordability. Realistically, the duals and a few other niche cards will be, and should be, the most expensive. Forces don't need to be infinite, nor do Fetches, Wastes, Goyfs, etc.

I paid $20 for duals, and I've paid $2000 for duals. Price will be a barrier to some, even at $50 duals. If you want it, you'll pay, but it's certainly a freakin' fun format and I wouldn't be opposed to having more people in it.

[Paul7926]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

I wish to sign up for your newsletter, vote you for president and generally wave the 'TsumiBand' banner!

I thought I was alone in thinking this way. It's like insisting that Games Workshop don't create any more Space Marines because the plastic ones I bought ages ago should have their value protected and be a secure vehicle for financial investment. And yes I've paid a lot of money (for me) for out of print cardboard in the past and I can honesty say, hand on heart, that if it dropped 90% in value tonight I wouldn't care, especially if the result of that was more people able to play Legacy so that I could use that cardboard more.

[nevilshute]

Cards are expensive, I agree. Shelling out 2k is not chump change for most.

I'm in support of reprinting cards not on the reserve list, and bringing those prices down into affordability. Realistically, the duals and a few other niche cards will be, and should be, the most expensive. Forces don't need to be infinite, nor do Fetches, Wastes, Goyfs, etc.

I paid $20 for duals, and I've paid $2000 for duals. Price will be a barrier to some, even at $50 duals. If you want it, you'll pay, but it's certainly a freakin' fun format and I wouldn't be opposed to having more people in it.

Matt, while I wouldn't be against a non-reserved list reprint of say, force, waste, karakas, port etc in principle, I'd be worried about the ramifications of such a move. I mean, let's say that happens. Legacy get's more popular because whooop, you can crack force of will in boosterpacks and the price of force drops to like half of what it is. Well then more players want in to the format. However, the duals (and a few other cards like cradle, LED etc) now get even more expensive because the more non-reserved list staples get reprinted and drop in price, the more people will be looking at getting into the format, the more expensive the reserved list staples are bound to get. What will happen then? Can the format handle $5-700$ blue 3rd edition duals? Will a proper "developed/non-developed world" evolve where a large portion of players can only play with shocks and not duals. I'd imagine that's (among other things) what's keeping WotC from doing a "Legacy Masters" type release.

[Mr. Safety]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

You're the best, this post fucking rocks.

Edit: on a seriois note, I believe all playable cards in formats should be reasonably available to all players. Vintage is still a format but the rarity and value of the cards only in that format should keep collectors happy (p9, etc.) Let the rest of us play some cards.

[Ronald Deuce]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

If I pay hundreds of dollars for tangible objects that don't wear out quickly and can be resold (unlike, say, lawnmower blades), I certainly would hope those items wouldn't plummet in value. And demand sets the prices of the cards; only insofar as they can manipulate the demand do collectors have any impact. There's nothing absurd about any of that.

You're right, though: an investment is an investment; a game is a game. When a game becomes an investment, that's not good for the game or the investors. Er, players. Plainvestors. Or something. Speculating on cards isn't good, either.

But I don't see anything irrational or entitled about people's hoping their stuff doesn't become valueless. Especially when the people who create the global supply absolutely can figure out whether they'll impact said objects' value by producing or not producing items.

[kirkusjones]

Two thoughts:
1.
Could they get away with timeshifting the duals at rare or mythic in another timespiral block? So you have a shot of opening a rare and a dual, but the chances are slim?

a.
Create a third un-set called "unreserved". Only reprint reserved list cards, but give them stupid names. Reprint the duals but call them things like "swampy island" and "mountainous plains", etc. give them a dash of that ol' digital art everyone seems to be so fond of, and politely ask Sheldon and the RC to make them legal in EDH. It would reduce some of the demand the from EDH crowd for the cards, Wizards makes a buttload of money off casuals, and grows the playerbase for a cashcow format. I can see the packaging now: Juzam Djinn wearing a fez and holding a bespectacled collector between two dingy fingernails. Tagline: "Unreserved: Unapologetic, Unleashed and Uncalled For."

[barcode]

Two thoughts:
1.
Could they get away with timeshifting the duals at rare or mythic in another timespiral block? So you have a shot of opening a rare and a dual, but the chances are slim?

a.
Create a third un-set called "unreserved". Only reprint reserved list cards, but give them stupid names. Reprint the duals but call them things like "swampy island" and "mountainous plains", etc. give them a dash of that ol' digital art everyone seems to be so fond of, and politely ask Sheldon and the RC to make them legal in EDH. It would reduce some of the demand the from EDH crowd for the cards, Wizards makes a buttload of money off casuals, and grows the playerbase for a cashcow format. I can see the packaging now: Juzam Djinn wearing a fez and holding a bespectacled collector between two dingy fingernails. Tagline: "Unreserved: Unapologetic, Unleashed and Uncalled For."

When they made the reserved list they said they wouldn't make functional reprints. So they can't make 1 mana blue instant that says "target player draws 3 cards" even if they call it "Brain Growth" or whatever.

A great example of functional reprints are Lightning Strike and Searing Spear. However Chain Lightning and Lava Spike are different because Lava Spike can't target creatures and can't be bounced back.

So "Swampy Island" wouldn't work because it would still be a land with types Swamp and Island with no other drawback (like the shocklands are a drawback).

ninja edit: However: they could probably get away with, U, Instant, You draw 3 cards. Or, U, Sorcery, You draw 3 cards. The problem is that now Vintage has 2 Ancestral Recall cards.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Lol so a Recall that cant be misdirected... I like it xD
Why not just make better cards? U draw 4? Island Mountain scry 1?

[Dice_Box]

Playing Modern today with a Legacy event happening tomorrow, I started asking around who was coming to Legacy. Shock and horror, someone mentions this article. "I read a really good article about Legacy" kind of made me a touch pissed. The issue was, here is someone that has never played Legacy who thinks this idea is the best thing ever, because regardless of the impacts on the format, then he could play it.

Now trying to explain that it's not all sunshine and rainbow's turned out to be hard. His argument being who could afford to play Legacy anyway and it was not until I got around to explaining that Legacy as it is right now still fires an event every week that he shut up.

We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy, but a way to get views for a site that has little market share in the shadow of SCG and Channelfireball. Because it has found a home in the minds of some but these happen to be the some that do not understand what losing Duals mean. I guess if they go on posting Modern and Standard content and get eyes on it well mission accomplished.

[dte]

The issue was, here is someone that has never played Legacy who thinks this idea is the best thing ever, because regardless of the impacts on the format, then he could play it.
[...]
We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy,

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

[Dice_Box]

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

But we have that Format, the one Wizards can control that is not bound by the list. It exists, its real. He can not afford to play Legacy so he plays Modern. That's fine. I even offered to lend him decks, he was not into that. Then he talks of how there was a proxy event that was near him and he hates proxies... I mean you can not please everyone. If you could my puppy would stop chewing on my phone cables.

[Crimhead]

Matt, while I wouldn't be against a non-reserved list reprint of say, force, waste, karakas, port etc in principle, I'd be worried about the ramifications of such a move. I mean, let's say that happens. Legacy get's more popular because whooop, you can crack force of will in boosterpacks and the price of force drops to like half of what it is. Well then more players want in to the format. However, the duals (and a few other cards like cradle, LED etc) now get even more expensive because the more non-reserved list staples get reprinted and drop in price, the more people will be looking at getting into the format, the more expensive the reserved list staples are bound to get. What will happen then?
Here's what might happen:

Prospective budget players will have better access to D&T, Merfolk, and Manaless Dredge (with FoW) instead of just Burn and Manaless, Forceless Dredge.
If other staples rise in response, that can only mean more people are buying them up to stick in decks.

All this points to real format growth, and great diversification in the budget sector. While it might not be in WotC's interests to help more customers into a format that entails less financial upkeep, I see no drawback for the format itself (assuming it doesn't cause WotC to go under).

Duals, of course, are the biggest issue (among RL staples). There is a wide selection of decks which use nothing else reserved; and these are often the decks most people want to play (midranged and tempo decks). The reserve list is easy to get around with dual lands by making close equivalents. My favourites are duals with a reverse rats clause (limit three per deck), or duals with a small draw back (damage, CIPT, etc) but only if you have more than two opponents. It's not so easy to do this with other cards like Tabernacle, LED, or City of Traitors because you give decks that want them extra copies.

But for now WotC doesn't want to print "equal but different" duals, nor do they want to print much in the way of high end non-RL staples. So we watch our format suffer stagnant growth and even declination in certain areas. :(

[HdH_Cthulhu]

We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy, but a way to get views for a site that has little market share in the shadow of SCG and Channelfireball. Because it has found a home in the minds of some but these happen to be the some that do not understand what losing Duals mean. I guess if they go on posting Modern and Standard content and get eyes on it well mission accomplished.

The point of this is to drag in more "outsiders" into legacy. But I agree with you, its not worth it!

[barcode]

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

Let's keep in mind that the format the article is talking about is NOT legacy. These changes would not help anyone get into Legacy because Legacy has a reserved list.

[Crimhead]

Let's keep in mind that the format the article is talking about is NOT legacy. These changes would not help anyone get into Legacy because Legacy has a reserved list.No, MTG has a reserved list. Legacy has a banned list that does not happen to encompass every card on that reserved list.

The changes proposed would alter Legacy radically. But changes to the banned list (even large sweeping changes indicative of as changing banned list philosophy) are still just changes to the banned list. Removing all sets prior to Masques is a more fundamental change - that would be a new format.

[kirkusjones]

When they made the reserved list they said they wouldn't make functional reprints. So they can't make 1 mana blue instant that says "target player draws 3 cards" even if they call it "Brain Growth" or whatever.

A great example of functional reprints are Lightning Strike and Searing Spear. However Chain Lightning and Lava Spike are different because Lava Spike can't target creatures and can't be bounced back.

So "Swampy Island" wouldn't work because it would still be a land with types Swamp and Island with no other drawback (like the shocklands are a drawback).

ninja edit: However: they could probably get away with, U, Instant, You draw 3 cards. Or, U, Sorcery, You draw 3 cards. The problem is that now Vintage has 2 Ancestral Recall cards.

Not even in an un-set? Which is not really legal anywhere? It would be similar to those world champion edition cards or collector editions.

[Crimhead]

Not even in an un-set? Which is not really legal anywhere? It would be similar to those world champion edition cards or collector editions.I believe the reserved list applies to tournament legal cards only. On the other hand, of doesn't help or affect Legacy much to print cards not legal in Legacy!

[kirkusjones]

I believe the reserved list applies to tournament legal cards only. On the other hand, of doesn't help or affect Legacy much to print cards not legal in Legacy!

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

[Phoenix Ignition]

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

I like this solution, though would it actually replace those cards in commander? If I could play Tundra and Un-Tundra in an EDH deck, wouldn't I just play both and not unload the Legacy playable ones?

[barcode]

I like this solution, though would it actually replace those cards in commander? If I could play Tundra and Un-Tundra in an EDH deck, wouldn't I just play both and not unload the Legacy playable ones?

This is the problem with functional reprints: WoTC would just give another copy of the original card.

[TsumiBand]

You have to keep in mind the letter and spirit of the Reprint Policy, which maintains the value of cards by not only never printing any cards on the list but, as time has shown, not printing anything that could be considered "in the ballpark" of those cards.

There was an actual outcry from RP proponents when Reverberate was printed because of its similarity to Fork. MaRo's comments on this are pretty well-traveled. There will be no Snow Duals or Legendary Tundras or anything that i a clear attempt to circumvent the RP; collectors know the game and they can spot a one-off as easily as the rest of us. Anything that would represent a true stand-in for RP cards just won't ever be considered. It's not even about who can be the cleverest Shitty Card Creator, it's been tried in the form of Judge foils and promo cards and Duel Deck reprints and "near-identical" reprints and WotC gets called out by the invisible empire every time. You can't shit a shitter.

THAT in and of itself is another point of insanity to me, because other collectibles exist in modernized forms and no one is threatening legal action over it. Action Comics #1 is easily available in a number of media, and cheaply; however, the few Action Comcs #1 that remain from 1938 go for millions. Guitars constantly go though cycles of popularity and see reissues of varying authenticity, but a legit pre-war Martin D-28 or an original Broadcaster is the actual collectors' item.

Apart from items which are impossible to reproduce - there can be no more *actual* Fabergé eggs or Stradivarius violins - there has continually been an understood separation between the collectors' items and those intended "for the rest of us". While my efforts to self-educate on the economic and/or legal precedence of this matter are not exhaustive, I've yet to hear of anything that matches this level of artificial scarcity (in terms of gaming or hobbyist activities, anyway - I'm not comfortable comparing actions within the Magic economy to insider trading or real-world cartels, precisely because I think the scope of the discussion matters so much. We are talking about Hasbro, not Chrysler or AIG ffs).

[Crimhead]

This is the problem with functional reprints: WoTC would just give another copy of the original card.
Giving decks extra copies of LED or City of Traitors will be an issue. Letting decks run up to eight copies of a dual land is not a very big deal - and most decks won't want to besides.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

[barcode]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

I imagine Miracles players would like to play more Flooded Strands.

[TsumiBand]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

I know we don't play Tolarian Academy in Legacy but daaang

[Lemnear]

I know we don't play Tolarian Academy in Legacy but daaang

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

[kirkusjones]

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

What if it was a fetch that instead of paying one life, you had to pay one mana of a color the fetched land would produce? So in the case of Mr. Safety's Azorious land, you'd have to pay white or blue? I guess that would still be a much better crop rotation...

[barcode]

I think you're looking for the Obligatory shitty card creation thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15217-Obligatory-shitty-card-creation-thread)...

[Mr. Safety]

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

Wrong. The land fetched would have to produce 2 colors. You would not be able to fetch basic lands. Both cradle and academy would be excluded. Read the example again.

[sjmcc13]

Wrong. The land fetched would have to produce 2 colors. You would not be able to fetch basic lands. Both cradle and academy would be excluded. Read the example again.

It does tutor up any 5 color land though...

[Mr. Safety]

It does tutor up any 5 color land though...

Sure, I mentioned that in my first post. That seems hardly broken in light of legacy as a format (wasteland, blood moon.) Considering the approach of wotc in terms of trying to have a balanced play experience, having perfect mana in all formats while allowing the deep pool of modern and legacy to self-regulate seems within their interests. If modern gets out of hand they are more than willing to take control with a ban.

I am not married to this idea, its not even that good. It does however open up a conversation on how to provide powerful mana-bases for the masses while leaving the reserved list alone. I don't think wotc will give up their baby (modern) by banning the reserved list. There is still more uncharted territory out there (whether or not wotc finds good solutions is up in the air, but they will certainly attempt it without compromising on the rl.)

[Nonex]

I actually like that idea a lot. It's simple, elegant, circumvents the reserved list, and I personally had never seen it before, make duals without types fetchable. A quick search reveals that there aren't that many choices for Legacy, and they aren't as desirable as ABU duals, but still work. We'd get the ten painlands (http://magiccards.info/query?q=r%3Arare+t%3A%22land%22+e%3A10e&v=card&s=cname) as the most probable targets, followed by the ten taplands (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22tapped+unless+you+control+a%22+r%3Arare+t%3A%22land%22&v=card&s=cname) (was that their nickname?). Nimbus Maze and the rest of the Future Sight cycle deserves a mention too; Graven Cairns can be extended to the rest of the Shadowmoor/Eventide cycle.

Rainbow lands would be City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Gemstone Mine for some decks, Thran Quarry for some others, Cavern of Souls, maaaybe Forbidden Orchard, and as very situational lands we'd get Reflecting Pool or Ancient Ziggurat. All of them have some kind of drawback, albeit manageable. All other lands I've seen either enter tapped, require sacrifices, or impose heavy restrictions on their maintenance or the obtention or usage of their mana.

Also, I agree with Wizards's apparent take on manabases. Getting locked out of a color by simply not drawing the appropiate land stopped being common a long time ago, and now it requires an opponent actively throwing disruption at you. In addition, any possible power creep derived from fetching these lands is counterbalanced 1) by being forced to find duals matching both colors, pushing 2-color decks or the inclusion of rainbow lands if you want more, and 2) by not being able to get basics, thus never getting to avoid Wasteland or Blood Moon.

But there's a little problem, and it's that when I started writing this I thought the concept was to fetch lands that produce one color OR the other, allowing basics and ridiculous stuff like Karakas or Gaea's Cradle too, which is why I liked the idea so much. I understand why force both colors though, but then the current Legacy doesn't really need a cycle of these fetches: everyone would simply fetch rainbow lands to keep up with the fetch/ABU duals' versatility. Might as well print two or three functionally identical cards that read "Search your library for a basic land card or a land card that could produce mana of any color" and call it a day. Some decks would still care about Islands to pay for their Dazes and Gushes anyway.

[Mr. Safety]

Fetching powerful lands should cost you a spell and mana. Stabilizing color requirements is really all that fetches are designed to do (and that is enough really.) Wotc also hates combo decks, so turning a fetchland into a Demonic Tutor would never fly. Crop Rotation is as close as we'll get in that regard I think.

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

[Watersaw]

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

That wouldn't actually do anything. EDH players would just put Plisland in their deck next to the Tundra they already own.

[Nonex]

Fetching powerful lands should cost you a spell and mana. Stabilizing color requirements is really all that fetches are designed to do (and that is enough really.) Wotc also hates combo decks, so turning a fetchland into a Demonic Tutor would never fly. Crop Rotation is as close as we'll get in that regard I think.

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

I'm convinced the dual lands are the only problem. Other Legacy staples in the list may be expensive right now, but none has ever reached prices that absurd. If only the dual lands were removed from the list (and then actually reprinted), I'm sure 99,9% of the complaints about the list would disappear and pretty much no one would care about its existence.

[barcode]

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

Fucking An-Zerrin Ruins. Can't believe how expensive they are for what the card does. It's bullshit that WoTC holds themselves to their reserved list and doesn't reprint this staple card. /s

When people talk about the reserved list it is always and only about expensive cards and never about the 550 other cards on the list.

[keys]

All they need to do is reprint more of the valuable non-RL cards.

Commander and other special sets would be a great way to get more FoWs and Wastelands into circulation, grow the player base, and make WOTC an easy buck.

I don't see the need to ban all the dual lands to make the format cheaper, since it's one of the main reasons people play Legacy over Modern.

Legalizing all the IE, CE, and WCD cards is another (perhaps more drastic) option that won't break the format or the reserved list.

[GundamGuy]

Other Legacy staples in the list may be expensive right now, but none has ever reached prices that absurd.

I can think of plenty of Legacy "staples" that are on the reserve list that are more expensive then dual lands.

Candelabra of Tawnos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Yes it's a handful, and yes you don't have to a playset of some of them, but while it's true that 95% of the Reserved List issue is the Dual Lands, there are a handful of other cards that suffer from it too.

Also if you just made Dual Lands plentyful some of these other cards on the list would spike in price (these plus others I didn't mention, because they are expensive but not in the same ball park as a Dual Lands) because of increased demand.

[TsumiBand]

The bigger issue with trying to print cards that "fix the glitch" is that overwhelmingly those same cards end up bolstering the existing decks that play the very cards they're trying to obviate (or at least render 'less crucial').

Safety's fetches don't *not* get Tundras, and they also fetch a variety of 3+color lands and make it way easy to skirt their drawbacks to boot. Seaside Citadel is always going to be better in a deck with duals and Odyssey fetches than one without. I don't think there's an easy way around that, except in those rare times where you can fill in the gaps of an existing "not-a-deck" that prompts people to give it another look like RtR's :bg: cards did. It didn't fix any mana but it at least made people want to play :bg: in their :u: decks. vOv

[tescrin]

I can think of plenty of Legacy "staples" that are on the reserve list that are more expensive then dual lands.

Candelabra of Tawnos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Yes it's a handful, and yes you don't have to a playset of some of them, but while it's true that 95% of the Reserved List issue is the Dual Lands, there are a handful of other cards that suffer from it too.

Also if you just made Dual Lands plentyful some of these other cards on the list would spike in price (these plus others I didn't mention, because they are expensive but not in the same ball park as a Dual Lands) because of increased demand.

Add:
Goyf
JtMS
Liliana
Force of Will
Wasteland
Rishadan Port
Grove of the Burnwillows
etc..

These are all more (or roughly as) expensive than Plateau, Scrubland, Savannah, Badlands, Taiga, etc.. and some are more expensive Bayou.

This is all just a bunch of "budget legacy" propaganda that doesn't understand how economics works.

[Mr. Safety]

The bigger issue with trying to print cards that "fix the glitch" is that overwhelmingly those same cards end up bolstering the existing decks that play the very cards they're trying to obviate (or at least render 'less crucial').

Safety's fetches don't *not* get Tundras, and they also fetch a variety of 3+color lands and make it way easy to skirt their drawbacks to boot. Seaside Citadel is always going to be better in a deck with duals and Odyssey fetches than one without. I don't think there's an easy way around that, except in those rare times where you can fill in the gaps of an existing "not-a-deck" that prompts people to give it another look like RtR's :bg: cards did. It didn't fix any mana but it at least made people want to play :bg: in their :u: decks. vOv

Good points. However...if these theoretical fetches can't get basics I think they would be of little consequence to existing mana bases already established. These wouldn't be better, they would be an alternative for allowing a deeper playable pool of dual lands. This would allow newer players to have a less painful (than shocklands) fetch-dual mana base that still provides a shuffle effect for brainstorm (because we're really talking blue here right? Non blue duals aren't nearly as oppressively costed as blues.) Again, its just an idea, and not neccessarily a good one.

Good discussion. In the spirit of simplifying my argument, all I mean is this: providing more access to abu duals is one way to solve the issue; printing new alternative lands that make other duals functionally identical to abu duals is another possibility.

[Dice_Box]

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

[SaberTooth]

it would be better if they dont ban the cards, but create a new format with these rules (no reserved list cards)

[barcode]

it would be better if they dont ban the cards, but create a new format with these rules (no reserved list cards)

Just play Modern. You'll have the same watered down feel of Magic.

[SaberTooth]

Just play Modern. You'll have the same watered down feel of Magic.

Really? brainstorm, FOW, wasteland, dark ritual, etc, are not watered down magic

[GundamGuy]

Really? brainstorm, FOW, wasteland, dark ritual, etc, are not watered down magic

Wasteland in a format without dual lands and only Shocklands seems really OP.

[GrimoirePath]

Isnt the point of Legacy to get to play with more of Magic's catalogue of cards, not less? This idea is cutting off the head to spite the headache. "Hey everyone, we made Legacy suck more, so now you can play!" Gee, I can see the modern players just lining up...

In my head I think we need to unban more cards, not ban more. Every banning just makes the cards the next step down the power level more important. As for costs, more banning just means devaluing, and devaluing will make people less willing to buy anything expensive, fearing it will just be banned down the line.

And frankly, if WotC banned everything on the reserve list, that would just push people who love legacy off to the fringes to play what they like in unsanctioned events.

[Blastoderm]

How about we close this thread?

[Pdingo]

pls close this thread thanks!

[Lord Seth]

Fetching powerful lands should cost you a spell and mana. Stabilizing color requirements is really all that fetches are designed to do (and that is enough really.) Wotc also hates combo decks, so turning a fetchland into a Demonic Tutor would never fly. Crop Rotation is as close as we'll get in that regard I think.

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?LED, Tabernacle, Gaea's Cradle, and Candelabra of Tawnos jump to mind immediately.

EDIT: Chains of Mephistopheles and Moat. To a lesser extent, also Mox Diamond, Aluren, City of Traitors, and Grim Monolith.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

The format and gameplay implications of No Reserve List Legacy have been covered already in this thread, but there's not a lot of talk about the financial implications, particularly the question of how exactly Wizards benefits from enacting a move like this.

Legacy doesn't move packs in the same way that Standard/Limited does and never would unless Magic trended towards YGO/Pokemon levels of power creep. And EDH/Commander has generally supplanted Legacy as the Eternal format in which you get to play with the entire history of the game (and does a much better job of that, I might add). There's really just not a lot of purpose to supporting the Legacy format besides keeping legacy (heh) players from kicking up an internet shitfit.

Think about it, what cards are there that are exclusively Legacy staples (i.e. not Modern or EDH staples) and not on the Reserve List that could sell $10 packs as marquee cards? Karakas? Port? It's such a tiny set of cards. Almost all of the big money, non-Reserved cards are shared staples in EDH which means they don't need Legacy to sell a reprint set; Commander Masters would do just fine with Wastelands, Forces, Derp&Tells, and what have you. And there's a much larger stable of $10-$40 cards to fill in the spots that aren't earmarked for chase Mythic status. Check out the prices of things like Crucible of Worlds, Rings of Brighthearth, Temporal Manipulation, and tell me Wizards doesn't have a ton of available reprint equity in Commander.

[barcode]

LED, Tabernacle, Gaea's Cradle, and Candelabra of Tawnos jump to mind immediately.

EDIT: Chains of Mephistopheles and Moat. To a lesser extent, also Mox Diamond, Aluren, City of Traitors, and Grim Monolith.

These cards are the most commonly played 40 Legacy cards from the Reserved List.:

Volrath's Stronghold
Volcanic Island
Undiscovered Paradise
Underground Sea
Tundra
Tropical Island
Transmute Artifact
Time Spiral
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Taiga
Serra's Sanctum
Shallow Grave
Scrubland
Savannah
Recurring Nightmare
Plateau
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Peacekeeper
Opalescence
Null Rod
Nether Void
Mox Diamond
Moat
Metalworker
Meditate
Lion's Eye Diamond
Intuition
Humility
Grim Monolith
Gilded Drake
Gaea's Cradle
Firestorm
Dream Halls
Cursed Scroll
City of Traitors
Chains of Mephistopheles
Candelabra of Tawnos
Bayou
Badlands
Aluren

[swoop]

Volrath's stronghold and Aluren are really so strong no print again please friend

[hymnyou]

What a waste of text. I can't believe I'm saying it ... but ... go play modern. If you want to tackle the issue of new players financially getting into Legacy then debunk the myth of cheap standard, the fact that half a dozen modern staples are also legacy staples and they are $80-100. "In Modern, if Tarmogoyf gets too expensive" ... Goyf is $146? There were $150 Underground Seas at GP Atlanta. I have no sympathy for a modern barnacle crying that Legacy is too expensive if he's spending $125 on a non reserved list quad reprinted Lhurgoyf.

Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

- From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

[Cartesian]

Price issues aside, the 10 original dual lands give so much freedom in deck design, and no other lands come close to doing what they have done for the game, really.
I honestly can't think of a single format that wouldn't instantly become more diverse, and more fun with original duals, than without.
For this reason alone, any company who cared about designing the best game possible would find a way to work around the reserved list.

[Lemnear]

What a waste of text. I can't believe I'm saying it ... but ... go play modern.

Is this the Twilight Zone? Mr. Hashtags-discredit-arguments uses the #1 "argument" thrown at his endless Brainstorm rants himself? I'm amazed

[Dice_Box]

And today, in my feed, the third non Legacy podcast talking about this in as many days...

[TsumiBand]

Is this the Twilight Zone? Mr. Hashtags-discredit-arguments uses the #1 "argument" thrown at his endless Brainstorm rants himself? I'm amazed

At some point once you kick out all the pillars of a given format, it really does shift towards the next smallest format + a bunch of spells nobody gives a fuck about. The top 10 most played cards in Legacy, according to mtgtop8.com, are 70% lands; 1 is Wasteland, 3 are beta duals (Volcanic, Tropical, Underground), and 3 are matching fetches. Move to the top 20; the next 10 down are primarily spells printed since, like, Kamigawa (save StP) and a couple more lands and fetches.

That list, poorly formatted because I'm lazy and my lunch is almost over:


Name Decks Avg
Brainstorm 65.6 % 4.0
Force of Will 58.6 % 3.8
Ponder 53.0 % 3.4
Wasteland 48.8 % 3.4
Polluted Delta 42.8 % 3.5
Volcanic Island 42.1 % 2.3
Misty Rainfrst 37.2 % 2.6
Tropical Island 35.1 % 2.1
Flooded Strand 34.7 % 3.6
Underg. Sea 31.6 % 2.5
DRS 30.5 % 3.9
JTMS 30.5 % 2.3
Scalding Tarn 30.2 % 3.4
StP 29.1 % 3.8
Bayou 27.4 % 1.7
Verdant Cat. 26.7 % 3.1
Daze 25.6 % 3.5
Gitaxian Probe 24.9 % 3.3
SDT 23.9 % 3.3
Spell Pierce 23.9 % 2.1


Look how many Modern-legal spells* are the top 20 most played cards - 9 cards. Almost half that list. Now look at the lands that support those spells. After that, picture Legacy with one change -- using Ravnica shocklands over Beta dual lands. It is not hard to imagine why people would call a "No Reserve List" Legacy tantamount to Modern + random crap.

Now obviously there would be a whole meta to consider and things that were not amazing before might become playable afterwards, blah blah blah. That's perfectly fine. However, people will use the format's current starting point and top cards as a touchstone for the things that go on to define that new meta, and there's no way that Modern decks don't just filter down into this format after adopting like Wastelands and more relevant counterspells.

Like really, what hidden jewels exist in Legacy right now that removing the RP actually makes playable? Is there even a way to assess that? I have no idea how to answer this question, because I had a beer at lunch before my food came, so like... yeah man

* Okay, so many of the actual spells aren't necessarily "Modern-legal". A better phrase probably would have been "printed since 8th Edition" -- the point is, the most played spells in the format are Beta duals, fetchlands, and (by Legacy standard) incredibly recently printed spells

[thecrav]

I'd be interested to see this data played out further down the rankings but I am also too lazy to do so.

[Meekrab]

Look how many Modern-legal spells are the top 20 most played cards - 9 cards.
Eh? I count two: Spell Pierce and Gitaxian Probe.

[TsumiBand]

Eh? I count two: Spell Pierce and Gitaxian Probe.

Fixed, though I think my point was made despite my slight miscommunication -- the top 20 cards in Legacy are either duals, fetches, or spells printed since 8th Ed.

[lyle h]

It's been a long time since I've been on The Source. I am a supporter of this change, and am down to necro a thread. This format becomes more and more insane to play. Ive owned this stuff since the 90s. When this thread was going strong this format was expensive, but not insane. Prices, are insane now. No reserved list Legacy is a breathe of fresh air.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Read the article the other day, and frankly, it was one of the stupidest things I'd read in some time. And I read the news.

What would banning everything on the reserved list actually solve? Seems the author was flailing for a nice, arbitrary designator for a group of cards that would include Stuff He(?) Doesn't Like, and that's how the reserved list came up.

Let's be honest: there are specific cards that define Legacy play and have always defined Legacy play (and competitive magic in the eternal formats) for as long as the format's been around. THOSE CARDS AREN'T ALL ON THE RESERVED LIST. Force of Will isn't on the list, yet Grandmother Sengir is. So the reserved list is not a guide for determining a card's playability, and thus, the author's argument doesn't really have any bearing on the gameplay of the format, and everything about gameplay that he says subsequent to his suggestion is nonsensical speculation.

If people complain about the price of the cards on the reserved list, and if the author's primary concern is economic in nature, why doesn't he realize that banning those cards not only would hurt collectors, but would cause the prices of "the next best things" to skyrocket? Storytime: I moved halfway across the country not long ago and sold about ten thousand junk commons I'd accumulated over my sixteen years of playing the game. I had, at the time, seven to nine copies of Serum Visions, that mediocre cantrip nobody cared about beause Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, etc. are cards that exist. I threw all but a playset of the Visions into repacks for our family's glorified garage-sale, thinking I couldn't move them on e-bay without paying as much in shipping as they were worth, and I didn't think more about it. Until everyone realized, a couple of months later, that bans had made Serum Visions the best cantrip in Modern, and the price quintupled.

Yeah, Serum Visions isn't anything like Candelabra or Imperial Recruiter or the duals, but I tell that story to ask these questions: what would happen to the price of shocklands if duals were banned in Legacy? They'd go up. Maybe way up. Would the increase in the price of said shocks help people get into the format? No. Would it hurt the odds that prospective players would get into Modern because of the collateral effect of increasing prices? Yes. Would banning duals have an adverse effect on the people who are Legacy stalwarts? Yes. Why? Because the price of their duals would go down and many people, I think, would take such bannings as a whipcrack to the jimmies. Would it "solve the problem with Legacy" to ban duals, City of Traitors, etc.? No, and there never WAS a problem, at least as far as gameplay is concerned.

I've complained about card prices for years, and I won't argue that it's not tough to sink hundreds of dollars into the land-base for a deck that's otherwise pretty similar to its incarnation in other formats. But if anything is killing Legacy, it's the stupidity of people who don't seem to notice that Tarmogoyf is more expensive than most of the dual lands, not the price of said dual lands or the fact that they're not coming back.

Man I realize this thread is a necro but I'm still getting sent by how bad this economic argument is

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Eh? I count two: Spell Pierce and Gitaxian Probe.

Damn, 2015 was wild

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Damn, 2015 was wild

tbf a lot of that now is Modern Horizons cards which is kinda cheating

[TsumiBand]

The real answer is just proxy everything and never look back

[Zoid]

The real answer is just proxy everything and never look back

I don't understand why this isn't the default approach by most people.
Before I moved countries, we had proxy vintage events in my region just to get enough people to actually play it.
I think for legacy, proxies would have also been acceptable.
Since WotC doesn't care about the formats, why should people care if they are sanctioned or not?
TOs who are also traders obviously have an interest in selling you their stock but there will be the point where they rather sell something and run tournaments then 5 people showing up.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I shouldn't have to!

But also, TOs don't sell proxies

[Zoid]

I shouldn't have to!

But also, TOs don't sell proxies

>Broke player uses sharpie on basic land
>Broke player added proxy to their inventory

Doesn't commander allow CE/IE/gold bordered cards already?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

>Broke player uses sharpie on basic land
>Broke player added proxy to their inventory

Doesn't commander allow CE/IE/gold bordered cards already?

I have nothing but deep seated overwhelming pity for people paying hundreds of dollars for officially sanctioned proxies

[PirateKing]

>Broke player uses sharpie on basic land
>Broke player added proxy to their inventory

Doesn't commander allow CE/IE/gold bordered cards already?

Around here none of the EDH game nights are sanctioned, so it doesn't really matter if it's CE/IE or just printer paper slips in sleeves.
If nobody complains then there are no complaints and the game gets played.
The global mood is people want to play games, you'll find yourself unwelcome to most if you try and gatekeep another player for not having an "official" card in their prize-less game night

[Rationalist]

It's been a long time since I've been on The Source. I am a supporter of this change, and am down to necro a thread. This format becomes more and more insane to play. Ive owned this stuff since the 90s. When this thread was going strong this format was expensive, but not insane. Prices, are insane now. No reserved list Legacy is a breathe of fresh air.

For the record, this is what became of the last major attempt at this: https://old.reddit.com/r/mtgEternal/

SaffronOlive put his weight behind it, they got organized and generated twitter chatter, the main Magic subreddit advertised it at the top of the forum for an extended period of time.

Died off pretty quickly. What's left of that subreddit should give you some idea of the timeline. If you really want to play a Legacy-like format without the reserve list issue, there are probably some better existing options.

[Humphrey]

Wizards doenst care about the players and the players shouldnt care about the shareholders and just play with proxies.
Its also incorrect that WotC doesnt profit from legacy as his own statistics show. 90+% is new cards, a big chunk probably less than 7yrs old.

[KobeBryan]

Wizards doenst care about the players and the players shouldnt care about the shareholders and just play with proxies.
Its also incorrect that WotC doesnt profit from legacy as his own statistics show. 90+% is new cards, a big chunk probably less than 7yrs old.

I just bought a bunch of proxies on temu

Some look good. Some are too dark. Overall for $11 its a bargain