Topdeck Tutors/Manipulation and Lantern of Insight

[rufus]

Suppose that a player resolves Enlightened Tutor while a Lantern of Insight (or something similar) is in play. Is the top card of the library revealed between the time that his or her library is shuffled, and the time that the found card is placed on top of it?

If a player pages through the library with Lim-Dul's Vault is the top card revealed each time that he or she shifts five cards to the bottom?

[jrsthethird]

If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell or activating an ability, the new top card won't be revealed until you finish casting that spell or activating that ability.

No and no. The exception is with card draw, where you must reveal as you draw.

[rufus]

If the top card of your library changes while you're casting a spell or activating an ability, the new top card won't be revealed until you finish casting that spell or activating that ability.

That ruling is for "casting or activating" not "resolving". So, for example, if you cast a spell with Future Sight you won't see the second card in your library until the spell is actually cast (or something weird like Chromatic Orb is involved.)

...
Transmute Artifact is another fun one. If someone searches for an artifact that is the top card of the library, is the card below it revealed while that player gets the opportunity to pay X? (This could matter with something like Skill Borrower.)

[Tammit67]

Lantern of insight in play. Top card is revealed, Call this card A

I cast Enlightened tutor, revealing the top card A.. I search for a tutor target, A is still revealed. I shuffle as per instructions. After randomizing, I reveal the new top card, which is the tutor target. Nothing is revealed in between as the shuffle and place on top is one action, as hinted at by the gatherer rulings on the tutor itself.

jrsthethird is misguided for the reasons you stated. Anytime the top card is actually changed you reveal. You'd reveal each time for Lim-dul's vault (Keeping in mind the cards you are looking at are still actually in your library so the topmost is revealed) and on cards like Green Sun's Zenith you technically reveal once before the spell resolves, after the shuffle when the creature is tutored for and once more after GSZ is shuffled in.

[rufus]

...

jrsthethird is misguided for the reasons you stated. Anytime the top card is actually changed you reveal. You'd reveal each time for Lim-dul's vault (Keeping in mind the cards you are looking at are still actually in your library so the topmost is revealed) and on cards like Green Sun's Zenith you technically reveal once before the spell resolves, after the shuffle when the creature is tutored for and once more after GSZ is shuffled in.

Beside drawing, is there some guidance about which operations are monolithic, and which ones are not? For example, do the cards for Kolfenor's Plans get exiled off the top one at a time, or all at once? If Demonic Tutor finds the top card, then does the new top card get revealed before you shuffle?

[cdr]

Beside drawing, is there some guidance about which operations are monolithic, and which ones are not? For example, do the cards for Kolfenor's Plans get exiled off the top one at a time, or all at once? If Demonic Tutor finds the top card, then does the new top card get revealed before you shuffle?

Drawing is a special exception.

120.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.

Any card manipulation that's not drawing happens as written.

[Tammit67]

Drawing is a special exception.

120.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.

Any card manipulation that's not drawing happens as written.

Outside of drawing cards, things tend to happen in sentences. Treat each sentence as an atomic unit.

[rufus]

Outside of drawing cards, things tend to happen in sentences. Treat each sentence as an atomic unit.

Does it really work that way? There's the ocasional compound sentence. For example:

Lim-Dul's Vault


Look at the top five cards of your library. As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library. Then shuffle your library and put the last cards you looked at this way on top of it in any order.

(It occurs to me that, read as wriiten, Lim-Dul's vault oracle text always puts the same 5 cards on bottom of the deck.)

I wonder about continuity too. Do you get to know which morph is which with Ethereal Ambush?


Manifest the top two cards of your library.

[Tammit67]

Does it really work that way? There's the ocasional compound sentence. For example:

Lim-Dul's Vault

(It occurs to me that, read as wriiten, Lim-Dul's vault oracle text always puts the same 5 cards on bottom of the deck.)

I wonder about continuity too. Do you get to know which morph is which with Ethereal Ambush?

I'm not sure if it really works that way, but usually some form of punctuation/paragraph seperation happens

[jrsthethird]

Sorry about that first response. I see the error.


Does it really work that way? There's the ocasional compound sentence. For example:

Lim-Dul's Vault

(It occurs to me that, read as wriiten, Lim-Dul's vault oracle text always puts the same 5 cards on bottom of the deck.)


As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library.

By the time it tells you to look at the top five cards again, you've already put the previous five on the bottom and the top five cards are new (assuming your library has more than 5 cards in it).

As far as treating individual sentences as a single game action, I believe that is true. Similar to how the "Shuffle your library, then put the card on top." of Enlightened Tutor is a single game action, so is a single iteration of Lim-Dul's Vault. But with LDV, each time you choose to pay one life is initiating a new action, so the top card in the next set is revealed.


I wonder about continuity too. Do you get to know which morph is which with Ethereal Ambush?

Yes. The cards are manifested one at a time, as per rule 701.31d:


701.31d If an effect instructs a player to manifest multiple cards from his or her library, those cards are manifested one at a time.

Addressing your prior question:


Transmute Artifact is another fun one. If someone searches for an artifact that is the top card of the library, is the card below it revealed while that player gets the opportunity to pay X? (This could matter with something like Skill Borrower.)

The card doesn't actually leave the library until you decide to pay X or not, then it goes to the battlefield or the graveyard. But sure, the card underneath it would be revealed before the shuffle.

[rufus]

As far as treating individual sentences as a single game action, I believe that is true. Similar to how the "Shuffle your library, then put the card on top." of Enlightened Tutor is a single game action, so is a single iteration of Lim-Dul's Vault. But with LDV, each time you choose to pay one life is initiating a new action, so the top card in the next set is revealed.


So, really, you have some notion of "single game action", the whole "individual sentence" thing is a heuristic, and - except for explicit exceptions like drawing and manifesting - judges "just know" whether something is or isn't a singe game action on a case-by-case basis.

For example, cryptic Annelid also only has one sentence in its rules text:


When Cryptic Annelid enters the battlefield, scry 1, then scry 2, then scry 3.

But, I expect, you'll say that that's three "game actions" (in other words, that up to three different cards could be revealed during the resolution of that ability)



Yes. The cards are manifested one at a time, as per rule 701.31d:

Thanks. I was looking at and old version of the rules. (WotC's site design changes make things so easy to find. :laugh: )

[cdr]

So, really, you have some notion of "single game action", the whole "individual sentence" thing is a heuristic, and - except for explicit exceptions like drawing and manifesting - judges "just know" whether something is or isn't a singe game action on a case-by-case basis.

No, you can always know what is or isn't atomic by card text, it just effectively never matters so judges don't care. As far as I know you still take each sentence as modified by ability words/keywords ("draw", "manifest", "scry") and those are atomic actions. There may be exceptions but I'm not aware of any offhand.

Your Cryptic Annelid example has keywords in the sentence, so those are effectively replaced by sub-sentences of the full text of the scry keyword.

You like to try to "gotcha" the rules but it never really works out for you. Any corner you can find has already been argued to death by WotC rules people and/or judges.

[rufus]

No, you can always know what is or isn't atomic by card text, it just effectively never matters so judges don't care. As far as I know you still take each sentence as modified by ability words/keywords ("draw", "manifest", "scry") and those are atomic actions. There may be exceptions but I'm not aware of any offhand.

Consider the text from Lim-Dul's vault.



... As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library.
...

Is it modified by any ability words or keywords like draw, manifest, or scry?
Is it one sentence?
Is it a single game action?

[cdr]

Consider the text from Lim-Dul's vault.



Is it modified by any ability words or keywords like draw, manifest, or scry?
Is it one sentence?
Is it a single game action?

It's a single sentence/game action that you can choose to repeat. If you repeat it, that's a new action.