OGW leaks & massive Judge suspensions

[Barook]

tL;dr: Appearently some judges leaked OGW stuff and Wizards banned a metric fuckton of judges from the US Southeast region (including five L3 ones) in response, whether they were involved or not. One judge even informed Wizards about the leaks immediately and offered support to find the source of the leaks - he got banned as well. :eyebrow:

Also, a summary (http://apps.magicjudges.org/).

[Tammit67]

I've heard it was a bit more than just OGW, as alluded by wizards and a second-hand source

[Ace/Homebrew]

I've heard it was a bit more than just OGW.
At the risk of telling the world that WotC is pregnant... :wink:
What did you hear?

[Nocley]

This is just insane now. Unfortunately we'll never hear the full story from WotC's side.

Everyone jokes about "XXX will kill magic", but I think this is by far the worst thing that has happened to this game in the past five years. WotC, you're literally destroying your gaming community by banning the volunteers who have built up the game for you over the past two decades. You already treat the players near crap, but even as someone who has never been a judge I'm downright insulted by how you've treated the leaks over this past week.

[Bobmans]

WotC thanks their succes on the loyal player base. Not to smart to attack them.

[Barook]

This is just insane now. Unfortunately we'll never hear the full story from WotC's side.

Everyone jokes about "XXX will kill magic", but I think this is by far the worst thing that has happened to this game in the past five years. WotC, you're literally destroying your gaming community by banning the volunteers who have built up the game for you over the past two decades. You already treat the players near crap, but even as someone who has never been a judge I'm downright insulted by how you've treated the leaks over this past week.
To me, it only shows once again how out of touch with reality the guys at Wizards are.

Suspending the responsible people? Reasonable, expected and well-deserved.
Suspending just fucking everybody, including people trying to help you, to incite scare tactics for an imaginary code of conduct nobody knows about, while giving themselves high-fives on social media for their "disproportionate response"? Just what?

I get a feeling that this is going to bite them big time. Not only did they nuke a good chunk of higher-tier judges they need to run events, they also pissed of the community and the volunteers who do the dirty work for them.

[Kathal]

Just what the fuck. I mean, this is like, if they are shooting themselves into the kneecaps, both of them. Pissing of a part of the community, still bad, but w/e. Pissing of the guys, which are running the events, bad idea.

Greetings,
Kathal

[Aggro_zombies]

Let's not turn this thread into yet another circlejerk about what a terrible company WotC is.

That said, burning the village in order to save it has never really been a good policy. There's a lot of disgruntlement about this. Unless literally all of these judges were involved in leaks dating back multiple sets (and word on the street is, some of them were), this was kind of beyond the pale. Hopefully some of this decision is reversed soon.

[Julian23]

I've heard it was a bit more than just OGW, as alluded by wizards and a second-hand source

I've also heard about some of the cards that were spoiled now, as well as some other Eternal staples. Didn't really believe any of it until one of those cards, Wasteland, actually got spoiled.

[Barook]

I've also heard about some of the cards that were spoiled now, as well as some other Eternal staples. Didn't really believe any of it until one of those cards, Wasteland, actually got spoiled.
So what are other Eternal staples that are supposed to come up? You cryptically spoke about them on Twitter.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What is the reasoning behind letting judges know of cards before they are announced? How does that benefit WotC? Do the judges provide some form of useful feedback? I'm under the impression these cards are already printed and in packs by the time they are being leaked to the public at large.

[danyul]

What is the reasoning behind letting judges know of cards before they are announced? How does that benefit WotC? Do the judges provide some form of useful feedback? I'm under the impression these cards are already printed and in packs by the time they are being leaked to the public at large.

I don't think WOTC gave that stuff to the judges necessarily. And apparently only 2 judges leaked stuff. But they posted that stuff in a group FB chat. And everybody in that chat got banned, regardless of whether they saw the actual messages or not. One judge in that chat, as mentioned above, actually reported it to WOTC to try to help mitigate damage. And he was banned too. But I'm retelling all of this thirdhand so who knows what the details are. I do know that WOTC definitely overreacted. Right now I'm just in /popcorn status watching this whole ship go down.

[thefringthing]

I'd like to see what would happen in the event of a judge strike. I wonder if they could get the next GP/PT cancelled and cause an even bigger PR meltdown for Wizards.

[Aggro_zombies]

In the past I knew an L3 who was involved in some late-stage rules advising for sets. Essentially, he would get the set as it was leaving Development but before it got templated and went to print, and his job was to go through the set, make sure things were worded clearly, and address any potential rules issues or weird card interactions that might arise. However, AFAIK he was never given completed cards like these guys in the southeast apparently had.

[Barook]

What is the reasoning behind letting judges know of cards before they are announced? How does that benefit WotC? Do the judges provide some form of useful feedback? I'm under the impression these cards are already printed and in packs by the time they are being leaked to the public at large.
IIRC, some of them are supposed to do previews. Which quite frankly still makes no sense, considering these bans are supposed for the Wastes/Kozilek leak and Wizards is mad as hell about it. If you want to spoil "C" at the World Cup, why do you hand out info/high-res scans months in advance? Haven't they learned anything from the whole New Phyrexia Godbook disaster?

What's even more weird that about the whole ordeal is that the announcement of the leaks were highlighted on Maro's blog in the middle of September and twice shortly before the leak which he could have chosen to ignore.


I'd like to see what would happen in the event of a judge strike. I wonder if they could get the next GP/PT cancelled and cause an even bigger PR meltdown for Wizards.
I'd love to see that because I think it would be hilarious, but there's no chance in hell that it could happen because a) I don't think a judge strike is likely and b) Wizards would probably get replacements anyway.

[thecrav]

I'd like to see what would happen in the event of a judge strike. I wonder if they could get the next GP/PT cancelled and cause an even bigger PR meltdown for Wizards.

Started writing this, then noticed something, then started over.

I've mentioned this in passing with some friends. The fact that the judge program exists and is functional is quite amazing when you really think about it.

WotC relies on people who are volunteering or getting paid a pittance to allow their events to work.

People pay money to travel to events, to act as referees, in exchange for very little payment, often not cash (though apparently this is starting to change?). I've personally met judges who have spent more on the travel to an event than the total of the compensation for everyone they went with.

The majority or organization, especially for big events, is handled via JudgeApps. This is a site built for free by volunteers and, as far as I can tell, is even paid for and maintained by those volunteers.

Without JudgeApps, how do you find a judge? Well if you know one, you call them. Otherwise, you need to talk to the RC. But wait. WotC's official links for how to contact RC's (http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/judge-regional-coordinators) links to JudgeApps*. This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, it shows how utterly reliant they are on their volunteers to make their game successful. Two, if you want to find a judge and don't know about JudgeApps, you're going to find that site and every link you will click will take you to a site that tells you that WotC is a satchel full of boners.

*Screenshot in case WotC fixes that. (http://i.imgur.com/MN47boL.jpg)

[Barook]

This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, it shows how utterly reliant they are on their volunteers to make their game successful. Two, if you want to find a judge and don't know about JudgeApps, you're going to find that site and every link you will click will take you to a site that tells you that WotC is a satchel full of boners.
This is golden.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Started writing this, then noticed something, then started over.

I've mentioned this in passing with some friends. The fact that the judge program exists and is functional is quite amazing when you really think about it.

WotC relies on people who are volunteering or getting paid a pittance to allow their events to work.

People pay money to travel to events, to act as referees, in exchange for very little payment, often not cash (though apparently this is starting to change?). I've personally met judges who have spent more on the travel to an event than the total of the compensation for everyone they went with.

The majority or organization, especially for big events, is handled via JudgeApps. This is a site built for free by volunteers and, as far as I can tell, is even paid for and maintained by those volunteers.

Without JudgeApps, how do you find a judge? Well if you know one, you call them. Otherwise, you need to talk to the RC. But wait. WotC's official links for how to contact RC's (http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/judge-regional-coordinators) links to JudgeApps*. This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, it shows how utterly reliant they are on their volunteers to make their game successful. Two, if you want to find a judge and don't know about JudgeApps, you're going to find that site and every link you will click will take you to a site that tells you that WotC is a satchel full of boners.

*Screenshot in case WotC fixes that. (http://i.imgur.com/MN47boL.jpg)

This is an amazing read and it kinda sorts all the crap about WotC and their exploitation of free labor. Any other company would pay their for their partners' work appropriately, but WotC/DCI gets away with this kind of "salary" that's more laughable than anything else.
I do understand that they needed to react to the leaks (heck, I don't, they could have crapped on the whole affair and be done with the thing), but this is far too harsh and it will bite them back.
Their whole MtG racket is build upon a communal aspect of game (at least considering Eternal and EDH), so it isn't the best idea ever to dick with the judges' force of will (the glue that holds the competitive community together).
I'm extremely amused by the matter and yep, I even feel a malicious glee looking at what the fuckers have done to themselves. Pity the innocent judges, though.

Also, something something Facebook something something tin foil hat.

[apple713]

I just read the statement made by wotc. WhAts the fuss about? Offending people got lengthy suspensions...suspensions means they'll be back eventally. They knew what they were doing was wrong and there should be a punishment.

However the other people who were assumed guilty by association (part of the facebook group) also received suspensions but nothing mentioned the length of time. While this is probably wrongly punishing some people its also punishing some offenders not caught red handed.

Either way who cares, they got suspensions and not bans... Oh no a time out. The primary offenders should have probably been banned if they knew they were doing something wrong. They bit the hand that feeds them. If they are unhappy with their volunteer / compensation situation then they dont have to participate.

EDIT
I am probably a little harsher than others but i have worked in the medical field and now work in the legal field where dissemination of privileged information often leads to job loss / loss of license to practice depending on the breech. In any event, the concept is simple. If it is not your information to share dont share it. Generally this is a very simple rule and in my experience is only difficult for immature people to follow / abide by.

[Undomian]

I just read the statement made by wotc. WhAts the fuss about? Offending people got lengthy suspensions...suspensions means they'll be back eventally. They knew what they were doing was wrong and there should be a punishment.

However the other people who were assumed guilty by association (part of the facebook group) also received suspensions but nothing mentioned the length of time. While this is probably wrongly punishing some people its also punishing some offenders not caught red handed.

Either way who cares, they got suspensions and not bans... Oh no a time out. The primary offenders should have probably been banned if they knew they were doing something wrong. They bit the hand that feeds them. If they are unhappy with their volunteer / compensation situation then they dont have to participate.

People on Reddit are saying that there are now entire areas (Mississippi was the example) now without any L2 or higher judges to help with events due to these suspensions. Stores would have to call judges from out of state to help out, and if that's not a problem I'm not sure what is.

[Julian23]

I think apple713's comment is off. Nobody is claiming that those guys who leaked the cards did it out of unhappiness with their compensation. Nobody really cares about those guys anways.

What we as the community care about is the other guys. From everything we know from WotC's and other statements, those guys were not only innocent but actually immediately reached out to WotC to help investigate the situation...which earned them a 6 month suspension (if I remember correctly from checking the suspension list yesterday).

How would you like it if I sent you a leaked card, you reported me to WotC, which would then suspend you for the game? Probably pretty unhappy and treated unfairly.

We as a community feel the same. Especially since as of everything we know right now, WotC is causing big damage among their biggest and almost free ressource they have: the judge community.

[apple713]

People on Reddit are saying that there are now entire areas (Mississippi was the example) now without any L2 or higher judges to help with events due to these suspensions. Stores would have to call judges from out of state to help out, and if that's not a problem I'm not sure what is.

If thats the case it sounds like wotc needs to rework how judges advance from level 1->2 and put more judges in circulation. I can see how this can be an inconvenience and unfortunately players are collateral damage but nonetheless the punishment seems appropriate / mild for the offense.

Edit


I think apple713's comment is off. Nobody is claiming that those guys who leaked the cards did it out of unhappiness with their compensation. Nobody really cares about those guys anways.

What we as the community care about is the other guys. From everything we know from WotC's and other statements, those guys were not only innocent but actually immediately reached out to WotC to help investigate the situation...which earned them a 6 month suspension (if I remember correctly from checking the suspension list yesterday).

How would you like it if I sent you a leaked card, you reported me to WotC, which would then suspend you for the game? Probably pretty unhappy and treated unfairly.

We as a community feel the same. Especially since as of everything we know right now, WotC is causing big damage among their biggest and almost free ressource they have: the judge community.

You are right. My comments were directed towars the primary offenders. The innocent bystandards should not have been punished. Wotc would also have know about the ramifications of their suspensions and its wird they didnt also announce a solution to the problem they created. On a more positive note 6 months isnt that long.

[Julian23]

Again: the outcry is not about the suspensions/bans handed out to the guys who did it. Everyone is pissed about the guys who were not only innocent but apparently actually helped out WotC with tracking down the source of the leaks.

[thecrav]

I'd like to see what would happen in the event of a judge strike. I wonder if they could get the next GP/PT cancelled and cause an even bigger PR meltdown for Wizards.

I didn't actually address this even though I quoted it...

I would love to see it happen. Judge compensation is awful. I'd like to see judges compensated for their travel expenses, their knowledge level, and their time.

As to what would happen, I think one or more of the following:

1. The big TOs such as SCG and CFB already have high level judges on staff. In an effort to ensure that their events keep running smoothly, they'd expand this program to include all judges required for their events. This could be through recruiting existing judges or something like having some of their grinders and pros take the judge tests - get certified as a judge and you're guaranteed to money 50% of events. This system would require that the TOs spend more money, so event costs would go up. Having monopolized the weekend availability of a large number of judges, lower tier events suffer as they go with less experienced judges or no judges at all.

2. WotC scrambles to fill the void and certifies a bunch of fresh new judges. Events suffer as people who don't know what they're doing run events. TOs running large events are forced to choose between bringing on the standard number of judges and running a crappy event or bringing on more judges and passing the costs along to the players.

3. Due to the lack of judges, events begin capping at lower and lower numbers. GPs reach the level of exclusivity that was once reserved for Pro Tour events.

Unlikely but possibly positive outcomes:

Judges are treated like anyone else who exchanges their time and knowledge for compensation.

1. WotC sets up a set of rules specifying how TOs must compensate their judges, taking into account travel expenses, time worked, and judge level. WotC has some sort of system in place to audit whether you're paying judges correctly.

2. WotC takes full control of the judge program. If you want a judge, you fill out the necessary forms with WotC and they send one out and bill you. WotC pays the judges as independent contractors (1099)

3. WotC takes full control of the judge program. If you want a judge, you fill out the necessary forms with WotC and they send one out and bill you. Judges become full fledged, though part time, employees of WotC. WotC uses their large amount of data on judges to detect what judges need to be where and incentivizes judges to live in areas requiring a judge. Positions such as RC become full-time jobs. The judge program becomes a pipeline for moving people from playing games to developing them with WotC


The majority or organization, especially for big events, is handled via JudgeApps. This is a site built for free by volunteers and, as far as I can tell, is even paid for and maintained by those volunteers.

Without JudgeApps, how do you find a judge? Well if you know one, you call them. Otherwise, you need to talk to the RC. But wait. WotC's official links for how to contact RC's (http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/judge-regional-coordinators) links to JudgeApps*. This is amusing to me for two reasons. First, it shows how utterly reliant they are on their volunteers to make their game successful. Two, if you want to find a judge and don't know about JudgeApps, you're going to find that site and every link you will click will take you to a site that tells you that WotC is a satchel full of boners.

*Screenshot in case WotC fixes that. (http://i.imgur.com/MN47boL.jpg)

One thing I forgot to mention. There is essentially no fallback if JudgeApps goes down Assuming, its creator and maintainer is free from legal strangleholds, if I were that guy, I'd be offering to sell the software, database, servers, etc to WotC for an insane amount of money right about now.


If thats the case it sounds like wotc needs to rework how judges advance from level 1->2 and put more judges in circulation. I can see how this can be an inconvenience and unfortunately players are collateral damage but nonetheless the punishment seems appropriate / mild for the offense.

This is certainly a thing that's true in general. I know that until recently, there were areas where you couldn't get judge certified unless you could get the higher level judges to like you.

I don't think you can just crap out more high level judges, though. You can't put a middle manager in the CEO's chair just because the CEO is gone. A lot of these people may not have the skills required to run an event. Simply making it easier to move up opens up the possibility of more bad judges at high levels, where they have a strong capability to ruin events.

I do think there should be a re-working of the judge levels. I've met an L1 judge who could describe to you complex interactions in legacy but didn't know what a standard legal keyword did. I've met another L1 judge who was a standard spike but didn't know what a layer was. You could have a lot more judges, and a lot more judges in places they should be, with a system that isolates knowledge like:

Level 1: Standard Judge - knows all rules pertaining to standard and all policies applicable to regular REL
Level 2: Modern Judge - knows all rules pertaining to modern and all policies applicable to regular and competitive REL
Level 3: Eternal Judge - knows all magic rules and all policies applicable to regular and competitive REL
Level 4: Professional Judge - knows all magic rules and all policies applicable to all REL levels
And then further levels arranged as they are now, based on other responsibilities, languages spoken, ability to run tournaments, etc.


BLAH I keep having thoughts and forgetting to put them in my post:

I'm no lawyer, so I'm sure someone will tell me that this situation isn't possible. I'd be interested to see a TO in the SouthEast lose their shirt on a major event after not being able to get judges on short notice after the expansion and then suing WotC.

[Barook]

One thing I forgot to mention. There is essentially no fallback if JudgeApps goes down Assuming, its creator and maintainer is free from legal strangleholds, if I were that guy, I'd be offering to sell the software, database, servers, etc to WotC for an insane amount of money right about now.
WotC would come up with their own solution instead - and given how tech-savvy the guys at WotC are, it would be beyond crappy, given their track record. "Why buy a working program when you can come up with something non-working for a fraction of the cost?"

[Tammit67]

What is the reasoning behind letting judges know of cards before they are announced?

They don't let the judges know before they are announced.

What I've heard is the source of multiple leaks is associated/friends with the judges and this ban is to punish them for not acting knowing full well that the leaker was doing something against WotC's wishes. Allegedly not an isolated incident. This is unverified beyond my tangential standing with someone, so who knows. It's what i believe and it coincides with the punishment.

It certainly leaves the Southeast in an awkward position and publicly should have been more transparent. But if what I've stated is true then that's all there is to it and the region will have to deal.


Again: the outcry is not about the suspensions/bans handed out to the guys who did it. Everyone is pissed about the guys who were not only innocent but apparently actually helped out WotC with tracking down the source of the leaks.
This x1000

[thecrav]

What I've heard is the source of multiple leaks is associated/friends with the judges and this ban is to punish them for not acting knowing full well that the leaker was doing something against WotC's wishes. Allegedly not an isolated incident. This is unverified beyond my tangential standing with someone, so who knows. It's what i believe and it coincides with the punishment.

Helene's statement (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/statement-concerning-recent-suspensions-2015-12-21) seems to confirm this.


The people suspended were members of a private group receiving stolen confidential information about upcoming sets before this information was available in any public forum on the internet. This happened over multiple sets and well ahead of preview season for the sets in question.



publicly should have been more transparent


As with a lot of drama regarding WotC's decisions, it could've been easily avoided with transparency / clear rules. I can't find anything in the DCI rules that even begin to imply that they forbid me from being in a FaceBook group where one of WotC's employees is breaking their NDA.

[apple713]

1. The big TOs such as SCG and CFB already have high level judges on staff. In an effort to ensure that their events keep running smoothly, they'd expand this program to include all judges required for their events. This could be through recruiting existing judges or something like having some of their grinders and pros take the judge tests - get certified as a judge and you're guaranteed to money 50% of events. This system would require that the TOs spend more money, so event costs would go up. Having monopolized the weekend availability of a large number of judges, lower tier events suffer as they go with less experienced judges or no judges at all.

2. WotC scrambles to fill the void and certifies a bunch of fresh new judges. Events suffer as people who don't know what they're doing run events. TOs running large events are forced to choose between bringing on the standard number of judges and running a crappy event or bringing on more judges and passing the costs along to the players.

3. Due to the lack of judges, events begin capping at lower and lower numbers. GPs reach the level of exclusivity that was once reserved for Pro Tour events.

Unlikely but possibly positive outcomes:

Judges are treated like anyone else who exchanges their time and knowledge for compensation.

1. WotC sets up a set of rules specifying how TOs must compensate their judges, taking into account travel expenses, time worked, and judge level. WotC has some sort of system in place to audit whether you're paying judges correctly.



I'm no lawyer, so I'm sure someone will tell me that this situation isn't possible. I'd be interested to see a TO in the SouthEast lose their shirt on a major event after not being able to get judges on short notice after the expansion and then suing WotC.

I think that #1 is probably true which leaves the smaller to's in a poor position but bigger events are probably unaffected.

Im just in law school but i think of it like this. It's unlikely that there would be any legal recourse on wotc for their actions. The TO would have to prove that wotc's actions caused some sort of damage to them that they could be compensated for. Maybe the TO has a case for some sort of detrimental reliance for lost profits. Since tournament outcomes vary and it would be difficult to give an exact number of loat profits the court would probably give an insignificant amount for lost profits and full recovery on expenses incurred prior to wotc's actions.

Heres where reality takes control of the situation and the TO's are probably just screwed. Hiring a lawyer and pursuing this case is going to cost money, and its more than likely going to cost them mosre money then they would ever recover. Also keep in mind that Wotc has corporate lawyers, probably as a part of hasbro. The TO will have to hire an attorney for something like 5000$ retainer and 200/hour.

[Ace/Homebrew]

In the past I knew an L3 who was involved in some late-stage rules advising for sets. Essentially, he would get the set as it was leaving Development but before it got templated and went to print, and his job was to go through the set, make sure things were worded clearly, and address any potential rules issues or weird card interactions that might arise. However, AFAIK he was never given completed cards like these guys in the southeast apparently had.
Thank you A_z :smile:

Edit: and Tammit!

[phonics]

I think that #1 is probably true which leaves the smaller to's in a poor position but bigger events are probably unaffected.

Im just in law school but i think of it like this. It's unlikely that there would be any legal recourse on wotc for their actions. The TO would have to prove that wotc's actions caused some sort of damage to them that they could be compensated for. Maybe the TO has a case for some sort of detrimental reliance for lost profits. Since tournament outcomes vary and it would be difficult to give an exact number of loat profits the court would probably give an insignificant amount for lost profits and full recovery on expenses incurred prior to wotc's actions.

Heres where reality takes control of the situation and the TO's are probably just screwed. Hiring a lawyer and pursuing this case is going to cost money, and its more than likely going to cost them mosre money then they would ever recover. Also keep in mind that Wotc has corporate lawyers, probably as a part of hasbro. The TO will have to hire an attorney for something like 5000$ retainer and 200/hour.

Really judges should strike and show wotc how much they rely on them, they really have nothing to lose, the whole thing is just incredibly silly.

[Michael Keller]

Really judges should strike and show wotc how much they rely on them, they really have nothing to lose, the whole thing is just incredibly silly.

This is spot on. Judges are customers too, folks. Which makes it all even more laughable that Wizards would ban people because they have that self-imposed authority. Gaming is a right, not a privilege. And no matter how much they want to sugarcoat it the fact remains that by banning these judges, they're banning swaths of customers.

People still don't get the reality of Magic: it's still just a game and you're free to come and go and do as you choose. Sure, there are standards to adhere to if you want to assimilate yourself into the population. It still doesn't change the fact that people - as customers - can ban Wizards and hit them where it hurts most: the money machine. I know integrity is important, but it's still ridiculous, folks.

It still baffles me that a majority volunteer force can be punished by some omnipresent collectible card gaming authority. Think about that for a minute and remind yourselves how ludicrous that sounds.

[rufus]

...

It still baffles me that a majority volunteer force can be punished by some omnipresent collectible card gaming authority. Think about that for a minute and remind yourselves how ludicrous that sounds.

Look at Me, I'm the DCI

How do you think FIFA got so corrupt? People love the game enough to look past a lot of the ugly and stupid.

[jrsthethird]

I'm no lawyer, so I'm sure someone will tell me that this situation isn't possible. I'd be interested to see a TO in the SouthEast lose their shirt on a major event after not being able to get judges on short notice after the expansion and then suing WotC.

SCG Atlanta was supposed to be Head Judged by the three guys who run JudgeCast (one per format), but now Bryan and CJ are suspended and only Jess is available. So now SCG has a month to fill that void (and whatever other suspended judges who were also working that event).

Given that they're SCG, they'll likely bring in Head Judges from other regions and reopen the applications to fill the Floor Judge spots. But a smaller TO wouldn't have that option.


As with a lot of drama regarding WotC's decisions, it could've been easily avoided with transparency / clear rules. I can't find anything in the DCI rules that even begin to imply that they forbid me from being in a FaceBook group where one of WotC's employees is breaking their NDA.

Judges aren't employees of WOTC.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

EDIT
I am probably a little harsher than others but i have worked in the medical field and now work in the legal field where dissemination of privileged information often leads to job loss / loss of license to practice depending on the breech. In any event, the concept is simple. If it is not your information to share dont share it. Generally this is a very simple rule and in my experience is only difficult for immature people to follow / abide by.

Definitely the same thing: leak the composition of AIDS vaccine, and leak the picture of Emzilek.
And... I believe that the main trouble is with a collective guilt approach and withthe fact that you might be next one to ban simply because you're on Source/reddit/fancybook/we. That's pretty stupid, imho.
But I might be wrong, I'm no doctor.
It's still funny how the WotC fuck with their own tournament scene.

[Paul7926]

So; we deflect from a rubbish set by printing Expeditions and altering a mana symbol mid set with no long term implications and now we kick up a storm about leaks and suspensions. Wouldn't it have been much better to design a decent block so everyone was talking about that? :eek:

Just asking!

[force_of_phil]

So; we deflect from a rubbish set by printing Expeditions and altering a mana symbol mid set with no long term implications and now we kick up a storm about leaks and suspensions. Wouldn't it have been much better to design a decent block so everyone was talking about that? :eek:

Just asking!

Nah, lean on the hype machine. And hope you don't run out of greedy, manic kids who buy packs because they think they're special and due to open a shiny $300 bill. Is this even a game anymore?

[jmlima]

... First, it shows how utterly reliant they are on their volunteers to make their game successful. ....[/url]

That's one of the ways to make millions. Find pour souls with nothing better to do than contribute their time and money to further your already vast fortune.

[Barook]

That's one of the ways to make millions. Find pour souls with nothing better to do than contribute their time and money to further your already vast fortune.
Reminds me of the Simpsons scene where Bill Gates destroys Homer's internet company.


Nah, lean on the hype machine. And hope you don't run out of greedy, manic kids who buy packs because they think they're special and due to open a shiny $300 bill. Is this even a game anymore?
And if the set sells poorly, they'll blame it on the leaks. Bet on it.

[force_of_phil]

And if the set sells poorly, they'll blame it on the leaks. Bet on it.

The spin has made me nauseous. Anthony Lowry's take on the leaks: "It isn't fair to them, it isn't fair to you, and it isn't fair to the people that make all of these things happen the way they do."
Yeah, missing out on the usual turd-polishing efforts is horribly unfair to us. And it's great that we've got these stooges to tell us what to think about the leaks, because we can't form an opinion on our own.

Here's what I think: WotC is pushing a system where it gets free marketing, the "writers" get easy views without having to create anything, and it's all positive so that they keep getting included. There's no worthwhile content there, and hype is not in fact beneficial to the consumer, so why do we care?

I can tolerate this approach as it makes business sense for WotC and their dealer cohorts, but when they start banning innocent people to prop up their hype machine, they've lost me. I won't be buying any OGW. I hope everyone will consider whether you want to support the policies that WotC is setting, chatting about "disproportionate response" like they think they're SS fearmongers. Here are some ideas: if someone made an illegal intrusion on your company's property, go after them. If someone broke a NDA, go after them. Maybe learn how to use technology to protect your information and track who has access to it. All good ideas. Suspending people who don't work for you, and didn't intrude on your property, because something popped up on their facebook feed? Not so much.

[Barook]

The spin has made me nauseous. Anthony Lowry's take on the leaks: "It isn't fair to them, it isn't fair to you, and it isn't fair to the people that make all of these things happen the way they do."
Yeah, missing out on the usual turd-polishing efforts is horribly unfair to us. And it's great that we've got these stooges to tell us what to think about the leaks, because we can't form an opinion on our own.

Here's what I think: WotC is pushing a system where it gets free marketing, the "writers" get easy views without having to create anything, and it's all positive so that they keep getting included. There's no worthwhile content there, and hype is not in fact beneficial to the consumer, so why do we care?

I can tolerate this approach as it makes business sense for WotC and their dealer cohorts, but when they start banning innocent people to prop up their hype machine, they've lost me. I won't be buying any OGW. I hope everyone will consider whether you want to support the policies that WotC is setting, chatting about "disproportionate response" like they think they're SS fearmongers. Here are some ideas: if someone made an illegal intrusion on your company's property, go after them. If someone broke a NDA, go after them. Maybe learn how to use technology to protect your information and track who has access to it. All good ideas. Suspending people who don't work for you, and didn't intrude on your property, because something popped up on their facebook feed? Not so much.
You can be a casual player or a competitve player, if a set stinks, then the playerbase will spot it and sells will suffer.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think that the hype effect is vastly overrated. The Wastes/Kozilek leak got me excited since it has potential (which Wizards might squander anyway) to offer interesting stuff, unlike the turd that was BFZ. But if the rest of the set doesn't deliver, no amount of hype will save it. I'd prefer an approach where cards are spoiled over a longer time span instead of the massive dump directly before the prerelease since it allows cards to be discussed properly. Although that might be their intention - distract the people with shiny mythics while 95% of the shit flies under the radar.

Honest question: How many people do actually read the spoiler articles? I either go to a summary site or I skim over it to look for the card image without reading the rest. All while Adblock is enabled. Sure makes a difference for their hype engine/ad revenue. :rolleyes:

[jmlima]

...
Honest question: How many people do actually read the spoiler articles? I either go to a summary site or I skim over it to look for the card image without reading the rest. All while Adblock is enabled. Sure makes a difference for their hype engine/ad revenue. :rolleyes:

I'm a pretty atypical player (or so I think), but I do not read any spoiler articles (dribel), much less their (wotc) fantasy fiction which is absolutely appalling. I also do not check any websites, just check the MTG salvation header where they conveniently have all the spoiled cards. And because I would not touch Standard with a long pole, I don't give a toss about how new cards integrate into the standard environment which what most spoiler articles seem to be about.

*rant below*

In fact, most articles on MtG suffer from the same issue, for every good one, you have 99 (if not more) crap ones. Most of the guys writing them seem to need to write regular pieces and they suffer from the classic 'what is there more to write about?' syndrome. One of the best recent examples I've seen is this article:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13013&writer=Craig+Wescoe

Adds crap all over the 1345885 articles previously wrote on this, makes dodgy groupings of decks, provides nothing new.

Even if you're writing on world news for a newspaper you struggle with this syndrome, much more if you're writing on a flipping card game in competition with 345768 other online writers.

[Lemnear]

What is the reasoning behind letting judges know of cards before they are announced? How does that benefit WotC? Do the judges provide some form of useful feedback? I'm under the impression these cards are already printed and in packs by the time they are being leaked to the public at large.

Exactly. This is the next coming of the New Phyrexia godbook spoiling except that WotC gave it to judges instead of a writer (and world champion). So they lied then they said they stop the practice of handing out these advanced info. Even more ridiculous, that they shit on the playerbase with their hate-article in regards to spoilers, but now they shit on the volunteers who keep the game running as well, simply because these fucktards hand out the info to start the shit themselves.

[rufus]

... I also do not check any websites, just check the MTG salvation header where they conveniently have all the spoiled cards. ...

The only real annoyance with that approach is that sometimes cards end up on in a discussion (and without rules text) before they're at the salvation spoiler.

[Tammit67]

Exactly. This is the next coming of the New Phyrexia godbook spoiling except that WotC gave it to judges instead of a writer (and world champion). So they lied then they said they stop the practice of handing out these advanced info. Even more ridiculous, that they shit on the playerbase with their hate-article in regards to spoilers, but now they shit on the volunteers who keep the game running as well, simply because these fucktards hand out the info to start the shit themselves.

No, judges do not get spoilers in advance. (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/3xrtyv/most_of_the_l3_judges_in_the_southeast_us_region/cy7ateq) This is not a godbook scenerio, this is someone from WotC leaking info.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, I think we've reached the end of productive discussion here.

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