[DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo

[Finn]

Hedron Alignment
Enchantment
2U
Hexproof

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may reveal your hand. If you do, you win the game if you own a card named Hedron Alignment in exile, in your hand, in your graveyard, and on the battlefield.

1U: Scry 1.

*************


4 Hedron Alignment
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
2 Flash of Insight

4 Lim-Dul's Vault

2 Faerie Macabre
1 Coffin Purge
2 Murderous Cut

1 Relic of Progenitus

4 Lotus Petal
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
4 Island


It's a start.
This is the fun part, folks - coming up with the deck that makes this work or failing to do so. Plenty of potential combos have come and gone for this format over the years. Let's see if we can't get this one to market. There are only the four copies of Hedron Alignment that only function for the combo itself. Every other nonland card is devoted to making the combo work. Only storm decks can currently boast that kind of construction.

Ahh, Flash of Insight should be good.

So, the plan is to cast Hedron Alignment and then Intuition for the other three. At that point you should have a variety of ways to exile one for the win right there on your upkeep. With Lim-Dul's Vault you can safely cast Intuition before you have an Alignment because you can rifle through your deck to find the fourth.

Tasigur's Cruelty is probably a bad choice because the critical moment when you have to exile stuff is going to be on your upkeep in most cases. (Cruelty is a sorcery)
Shrouded Lore is what you use if you had to exile Hedron Alignment to Force of Will before casting Intuition. I'm not sure it will be worth the effort, and I think this is a crappy method. Entomb is fine with this card, but I think Lim-Dul's Vault simply does a better job.

[Mr. Safety]

A few cards came to mind:

Infernal Tutor
Entomb
Lotus Petal


Its cool to see a new potential combo deck.

EDIT: jeez, does Doomsday work here? Complicated AF but maybe?

[kirkusjones]

Faerie Macabre in the place of Cruelty? It doesn't protect the combo in the same way Cruelty does, but it has decent utility and is harder to counter.

[Finn]

Faerie Macabre in the place of Cruelty? It doesn't protect the combo in the same way Cruelty does, but it has decent utility and is harder to counter.


Yup, that's good. I had already changed it to Coffin Purge (for Intuition interaction), but this is excellent. Thanks.

Remaining is a way to handle the scenario in which you are holding three copies of Alignment and the more likely case where you want to exile one for Force of Will. I have a terrible idea for both of these: Recall

[jrsthethird]

Graveyard is easily the hardest zone to get to stick. Luckily we dodge the incidental hate of DRS, but nearly every deck runs some sort of graveyard disruption. Cage is irrelevant, but Relics/Nihils/Crypts/RiPs can break us if they catch us with 2 in the bin.

It's possible to play a slower, more control style, with Foil, Misdirection, TFK, and LOTV as additional enablers that work once you get the copies in hand.

[kirkusjones]

I have pretty much everything to build this. I may have to proxy up the rest and play a few test games. I haven't played legacy in a few years, but this deck idea definitely has me interested. Thanks gentlemen!

[death]

A deck like this without Doomsday needs a way to recover from a discarded hedron(s), it's a wrench in the plan that turns off the Intuition route.

[Seraphix]

Serum Powder might be cool.

[death]

Serum Powder might be cool.

It's cool when you draw one and a hedron in your opening because you can rfg a hedron and draw a fresh 7. But what happens when you draw 2 hedrons in your opening or if you don't draw Serum Powder at all, it becomes a dead top deck later on.

[death]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/6e/121.jpg


4 Doomsday
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Hedron Alignment
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Underground Sea
4 Lake of the Dead
8 fetch lands
2 Swamp



Ideally you want to cast Doomsday (BBB) and Predict (1U) on the same turn so you only wait 1 turn to win. Dark Ritual/Lake of the Dead + LED will give you access to this kind of mana as early as turn 3. Also required is a Probe in hand or an SDT in play post Doomsday to draw Predict, the card on top of the pile. (1 Hedron Alignment is removed from the game while resolving Doomsday to satisfy the first condition:
http://media.wizards.com/2015/ogw_239nCi30ks3/en_e66ZBFGveS.png)


Here are some of the post Doomsday scenarios,

requirement: no hedron in hand, 1U + LED or 2U

Predict
Hedron
Hedron
Hedron
any card

Cast Predict, crack LED in response. This puts a hedron in the graveyard and you draw the other two. Cast 1 with the UUU mana from LED.


requirement: hedron in hand, 1U + LED or 2U

Predict
any card
Hedron
Hedron
any card

Predict naming any card, crack LED in response to discard the hedron you have in hand and draw the other two. Cast 1 with the UUU mana.


requirement: no hedron in hand, 1U, hedron in play

Predict
Hedron
Hedron
any card
any card

Cast Predict, a hedron goes into your graveyard and you draw the last hedron + any card.


requirement: hedron in hand, 1U, hedron in play

Predict
any card
LED
Probe
Hedron

Here you cast LED and Probe, cracking LED in response to discard the hedron in your hand. Draw the last hedron. You will have no card left in your library but you win anyway on upkeep.


I'll be in my bunker.

[Jay_Gatz]

What about chrome mox as an exile enabler and ramper?

[LMental]

What about chrome mox as an exile enabler and ramper?

Yeah Chrome Mox seems very smart especially in the non-Doomsday build. And as much as I like the Doomsday build... I just have trouble seeing what makes it better than normal Labman Doomsday. Especially since it will take a full 2 turns to win if you don't have SDT or Gitaxian Probe on the same turn you Doomsday.

[Finn]

OK, death. I read your bit on Doomsday, and I needed to since I had not thought it through yet. I like the fact that you can potentially go off with nothing but Doomsday and sufficient mana. Lemme ask you: Is this somehow better and/or different from other decks that use Doomsday?

@LMental: My build does not expose the graveyard components until the upkeep when you win. I suspect that the same can be done with Doomsday. What are the weaknesses of the Labman build? I have not been able to find a decklist, an you post one for reference?

The problem that Chrome Mox and Force of Will cause when exiling is that it screws up the service of Intuition and forces us to play bad cards (like Shrouded Lore Recall) to fish an Alignment out of the graveyard.

[MGB]

I'm having a flashback to when Finn posted his Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb combo deck.

This thread is missing that "Take a look at this list, see if you can tell what it's trying to do... If you can't figure it out, click this spoiler box" element though.

[rufus]

This is almost certainly a bad idea, but I like Ancestral Knowledge too much.


Street Wraith
Mishra's Bauble
Urza's Bauble
Gitaxian Probe

Relic of Progenitus

Brainstorm
Thought Scour

Ancestral Knowledge
Hedron Alignment
Intuition
Recall

Daze
Force of Will


I'm also a little surprised there are no UR lists with Faithless Looting and Izzet Charm in the thread.

[Finn]

I am kinda making the OP in parts. Thanks for the input, MGB. I will get that in there today.

[dte]

I guess noxious revival is a good card in either plan (intuition and DD). It allows you to win with just intuition after having pitched 1 hedron.
Chrome mox also seems like a no-brainer for me, as it couple mana acceleration with rfg effect.
If intuition is a core card, then I guess merchant scroll should be considered somewhere.

For the doomsday list, I would at least replace a predict with a careful study (it will frequently allow piles 1-mana cheaper, depending of what is in your hand), and add a labman.
But as it is, it is clearly weaker than a classical doomsday (the win takes more slots and have higher requirements in terms of mana, and you can only do pass the turn piles, which are dangerous after losing half your life turn 3+).

However, I think it should be interesting to couple both approaches. Something like this (totally untested, but...):

4 Doomsday
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Hedron Alignment
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
1 Predict
1 noxious revival
4 intuition
2 chrome mox
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Underground Sea
1 Lake of the Dead
9 fetch lands
1 Swamp
1 island
1 cofin purge
1 flash of insight
1 ideas unbound
1 gifts ungiven (mostly a bit of flavour in a deck that aims to win with four copies of the same card, but also a strong card with a deck featuring cards such as noxious revival, intuition, doomsday).

[LMental]

@LMental: My build does not expose the graveyard components until the upkeep when you win. I suspect that the same can be done with Doomsday. What are the weaknesses of the Labman build? I have not been able to find a decklist, an you post one for reference?

I just remember Smemmen had one some years back that was pretty cool (though of course not nearly as good as he claimed it was. It was something like:

6 Rituals (Dark + Cabal)
4 Doomsday
16 Cantrip (BS, Ponder, Git. Probe, SDT)
10 Counterspell (FoW, Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm)
1 Lab Man
1 Unearth
1 Mental Note

I don't think he even played LED. The pile is pretty elegant actually: you go Brainstorm, Mental Note, Lab Man, Gitaxian Probe, Unearth. Draw Brainstorm. Play it. Put back Lab Man and Any card. Play Mental Note. Draw Unearth. Play it. Play Gitaxian Probe. GG. Happens all in one turn and allows you to play a lot of counterspells since the combo doesn't take up much space. And going off only costs UUB, so you can go off on turn 4 really easily with Ritual + 3 lands, or earlier -- maybe he played Lotus Petal?



The problem that Chrome Mox and Force of Will cause when exiling is that it screws up the service of Intuition and forces us to play bad cards (like Shrouded Lore Recall) to fish an Alignment out of the graveyard.

True, true. Well then maybe it's not good.

[the driver]

I just remember Smemmen had one some years back that was pretty cool (though of course not nearly as good as he claimed it was. It was something like:

6 Rituals (Dark + Cabal)
4 Doomsday
16 Cantrip (BS, Ponder, Git. Probe, SDT)
10 Counterspell (FoW, Misdirection, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm)
1 Lab Man
1 Unearth
1 Mental Note

I don't think he even played LED. ... -- maybe he played Lotus Petal?



You're right no LED and he did play a petal since some piles needed it. Abrupt Decay was a big problem for that deck which necessitated the Misdirection. The Lab Man build also had the ability to build piles around graveyard hate using Predict / Dark Ritual / SDT cast Lab Man and win. This deck obviously doesn't have access to those things vs something like Rest in Peace.

I wonder if a control approach might work better than a combo approach. Perhaps something like (literally off the top of my head as I type this)...

20 UB Lands with fetches

4 Hedron Alignment
1 Intuition
1 LDV
1 Relic

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 SDT

2 Murderous cut
2 innocent blood
4 FOW
2 Misdirection
4 duress

Hedron lets you scry which isn't bad. Control elements like FOW, MD, and Cut let you exile Hedrons. Lots of discard to use as control or use on yourself to discard a Hedron. Just thoughts.

[btm10]

The problem that Chrome Mox and Force of Will cause when exiling is that it screws up the service of Intuition and forces us to play bad cards (like Shrouded Lore Recall) to fish an Alignment out of the graveyard.

Just a few thoughts; this post might end up being a personal reference, but I think it contributes something to the discussion:

1. Green offers a lot of utility to this deck. Regrowth is strictly better than Recall or Shrouded Lore (and that same effect is available in green anyway), and Holistic Wisdom is another way to exile a copy for value. Wisdom + Intuition sets up three of the four zones. It also lets you put the pieces into place at instant speed in response to the upkeep trigger on an in-play copy. Ground Seal and Grip are obviously great sideboard cards.

2. Deed is very rare right now, as are Tranquility effects, so in play is actually the safest zone to store copies of Hedron Alignment. Maybe a bounce spell or two would be good? Chain of Vapor in particular is quite versatile and can deal with things like Rest in Peace as well.

3. In general, combo-control seems to be where the deck wants to be. The combo takes some set-up, but is pretty robust once you get there and takes very few dedicated slots.

[Fatal]

So it's quite 1 card combo, but require really a lot of factors to go off. Probably the biggest difference to all Lab Man piles - it's pass the turn pile, which mean opponent can attack one of your conditions, 2 zones are the most risky - graveyard and hand both are quite common to hate, almost any deck have some kind of graveyard hate (surgical is critical) on SB. Discard is running by almost all black decks (it's basic disruption from this color), second think also Vendilion clique is a big thread.

I can see that control shell would be only reasonable with Intuition as tutor since it can feed all three zones (gy, hand, gy -> exile is probably the easiest), on the other hand exiling Aligment to FoW would mean you can't Intuition for it (without any way to bring back it).

Second option would be U/G shell with a lot of tutors and recursion cards like Regrowth or E.Witness, but from my point of view it will be very very slow and clunky.

I don't see advantages with Aligment over Lab Man in Doomsday, sure it's batter vs Decay (which can be outplayed like all removal), but it's worst vs GY hate and discard and which is the most important gives whole turn for opponent to react.

[Darkenslight]

I'd definitely consider going UGr, as you get the ability to 'reset' your Alignments with Research // Development, in case of RiP. Black is a viable second/third color, for Entomb and Exile effects.

[btm10]

I'd definitely consider going UGr, as you get the ability to 'reset' your Alignments with Research // Development, in case of RiP.

Research doesn't work with exiled cards, they have to be in your sideboard.

[shaggai]

How about Manipulate Fate?

I also would like to have access to Pull from Eternity in case anything bad happened and too many copies get exiled, although you'll need to figure out how to get it into play or into your hand from the graveyard then.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Manipulate Fate, Pull from Eternity, Entomb, noxious revival are all cards that dont do anything... like the alignment! Idk I just see 4 FoW some Intuition and a bunch of useless cards!

[Finn]

Manipulate Fate, Pull from Eternity, Entomb, noxious revival are all cards that dont do anything... like the alignment! Idk I just see 4 FoW some Intuition and a bunch of useless cards!
That is why you fail.

In all seriousness, naturally there is The Danger of Cool Things to consider. But bringing these options to light is fine.


...Regrowth is strictly better than Recall or Shrouded Lore...This actually is not true. Recall is terribad, but (in addition to acting as a Regrowth) if you are holding three copies of Alignment or for any reason need to get one from hand to graveyard, Recall can do that too.

I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this. We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so. If not, I am sorta interested in it as a route to victory, as it is nearly a single card combo. But it does take either a shitload of mana or two main phases plus an upkeep to win while the Intuition version needs only a single main phase followed by an upkeep. Finally, the Careful Study version (for Doomsday) and the Predict version are considerably different. You can't just interchange those cards.

[Climax]

I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this. We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so. If not, I am sorta interested in it as a route to victory, as it is nearly a single card combo. .


Lets just take the current state of the art DDFT lists:

Business:

4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac


Protection

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


Cantrips

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere


Accel

4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal


Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp



If we look just at the maindeck, there are two ways to win.
1. Storming for lethal Tendrils
2. The LabMan Kill (which is pretty save because of the Sphere)

The deck has the possibilities to win out of the weirdest situations.
A basic pile with Top in play and Probe in hand does not require any additional mana, after resolving Doomsday.
The most used LabMan Pile requires 1UU + Draweffect after Doomsday if i remember correctly. (Already a few years ago, since i played the deck.)

So for my point, i don't see any advantages of playing Hedron Archive with Doomsday instead of the classic DDFT Versions. (Maybe the lower learning curve).

But I think you are on something here with the Intuition Version Finn. And I will gladly tryy to contribute to it

[Nicol Bolas]

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/f/fb/Give_That_Man_A_Cookie_meme.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140306133505



What about chrome mox as an exile enabler and ramper?

Chrome mox is bad, multiples is bad, mulligan + chrome mox is bad.

[Climax]

ATM I'm fooling around with something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Hedron Alignment
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Intuition
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
2 Murderous Cut
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

The list is currently 58 cards cuz i cut the 2 Flash of Insights (were underperforming). The body was taken from an ETI Combo Deck. (Thanks Emidln. All the credits is due to you).
From my point of view the biggest issues are:

1. Keep the Alignment in the graveyard
2. Battle discard

Currently I'm checking other combo decks to find a good solution for both. Leyline of Sanctity comes to mind

[dte]

I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this.


yes, there is. Labman, BW>ToA are way better, SI/Emrakul is also arguably better. And given their compacity, efficiency and the need to pass the turn for the hedrons, I don't think hedron will ever be a way to improve current doomsday builds.



We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so.


Here I disagree, because intuition and DD do not have to be mutually exclusive. At such an early stage of brainstorming, stopping to consider a card which do so much things (and can also bring alternate wincon in 1 card) may be a mistake.



Finally, the Careful Study version (for Doomsday) and the Predict version are considerably different. You can't just interchange those cards.

No, they are similar (they allow to put cards in the grave, and are draw 2 effects), and both can lead you to victory under different requirements. And if it was possible to interchange them, you would play only one copy of one of them. Both are under average cantrips but playable outside of the combo. The main difference is when you have to use a LED, careful is useless. Domsday aims at running some singletons that can answer really different situations, as it can fetch and combine them.

[The Nobodys]

Happy to join this thread. Thought I'd just repost my idea for a Restore Balance control version for this card:


4 ardent plea
4 hedron alignment
4 intuition
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
3 helm of obedience
3 propaganda
3 starfield of nyx
2 restore balance
4 rite of undoing
2 leyline of anticipation

20-24 lands/posts


Not sure if this as at all viable, but it's another way to tackle Hedron Alignment's viability is a wincon. Helm combo can always be grabbed with inuition, or starfield beats. Sol lands/serra's sanctum might be needed.

[jrsthethird]

Happy to join this thread. Thought I'd just repost my idea for a Restore Balance control version for this card:


4 ardent plea
4 hedron alignment
4 intuition
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
3 helm of obedience
3 propaganda
3 starfield of nyx
2 restore balance
4 rite of undoing
2 leyline of anticipation

20-24 lands/posts


Not sure if this as at all viable, but it's another way to tackle Hedron Alignment's viability is a wincon. Helm combo can always be grabbed with inuition, or starfield beats. Sol lands/serra's sanctum might be needed.

You need Thassa, God of the Sea here. She was an all-star when I was testing Post-based Restore Balance in Modern. Possibly better than Starfield (or supplementary to). Also Thopter Spy Network could do some work as part of a transformational sideboard.

[Darkenslight]

You need Thassa, God of the Sea here. She was an all-star when I was testing Post-based Restore Balance in Modern. Possibly better than Starfield (or supplementary to). Also Thopter Spy Network could do some work as part of a transformational sideboard.

The core problem is that Ardent Plea doesn't get Hedron Alignment. You need Bloodbraid to fetch that out.

[jrsthethird]

The core problem is that Ardent Plea doesn't get Hedron Alignment. You need Bloodbraid to fetch that out.

No, the idea is to cascade into Restore Balance for board control. Nobody wants to BBE into Fieldmist Borderpost either.

[Darkenslight]

No, the idea is to cascade into Restore Balance for board control. Nobody wants to BBE into Fieldmist Borderpost either.

In which case, feel free to smack me upside the head. :tongue: I missed that interaction on first parse.

[Rationalist]

Would a Gemstone Caverns be of any use here, even as a one-of?

[bruizar]

I'm just mentioning Zur the Enchanter for its ability to singlehandedly give you access to all 4 copies. I'm also mentioning Battle of Wits because a deck like this actually benefits from a BoW setup (Less chance to draw dead Hedron alignments, though still has the ability to tutor them all up). Lastly, a mention for Wild Research for giving access to all four copies and satisfy 3 of 4 conditions on its own.

I know they are not competitive level cards, but neither Hedron Alignment :-)

[btm10]

This actually is not true. Recall is terribad, but (in addition to acting as a Regrowth) if you are holding three copies of Alignment or for any reason need to get one from hand to graveyard, Recall can do that too.


You're right about that, but I'm still not sure that Recall is preferable to a more general loot effect (even something like Desolate Lighthouse) when it comes to discarding extra Alignments.

I do think that the best way to deploy Hedron Alignmemt as a win condition is in a Ux control deck. A Splinter Twin deck Top 8'ed a PIQ in December (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95879) and a Legacy version of that sort of combo-control deck offers a lot of the same benefits it does in Modern, and Alignment takes fewer slots and is harder to disrupt than the Twin combo.

[Malchar]

You could use infernal tutor. If you have intuition + tutor or intuition + hedron, then all you need to do is exile one from your graveyard. It's also a half-decent card on its own, and it could fit into a lion's-eye diamond + doomsday shell.

[Finn]

@Malchar, you say Infernal Tutor + Intuition works, but I don't see how to make this happen either with or without Lion's Eye Diamond. If there is a way and I am just not seeing it, please tell me how - because that is very helpful if it works. If it can not work until you are already holding a copy of Hedron Alignment, Infernal Tutor is just north of useless, and would certainly not make the cut. I almost hope that it turns out to be unusable simply because you can't have Force of Will in the same deck.

************

@Climax, Thanks for the feedback. Flash of Insight is an infuriating card. It is nearly good enough to be our exiling mechanic and it is nearly good enough to be a search mechanic. It is not actually good enough to be reliable at either. What we really need is a way to get it into the graveyard without casting it first. Then it may be able to prove itself. Yes, Intuition can do this, but the deck does not want it to. I fear that in order to make this switch, the deck would need to be reworked considerably (Careful Study, probably Entomb, and some of those distasteful methods of regrowing cards).

Honestly, I have been ok with leaning hard on Lim-Dul's vault to make the combo work. I can often get my house in order by turn four for a turn five win. But we really either need a stronger control element or the combo needs to speed up to a turn 2-3 win. Right now I am getting mostly turn 4.

Some thoughts on that:

1. I am annoyed at how often I can not win on my upkeep after Hedron Alignment hits the battlefield. I either feel that I am best served spending the mana on turn three to cast it, even without Intuition in my hand or I do not have a free free option to exile the extra copy in the graveyard during my fourth upkeep. That is one problem that MAY be solved simply with me improving my skill with the deck. Not sure about that atm.

2a. I figure we can mess with the deck enough to get a more aggressive mana supply enough to shave nearly a turn off of the win.

2b. If these two issues can be resolved, and Force of Will remains in the deck, this should make the deck competitive.

2c. I am in favor of the improved mana supply - as opposed to going full-on into control - simply because I think that the fast mana in Legacy is stronger than the cheap defense available in these colors. I would actually really like to here what Brant Cook or emidln or one of the other long-time combo guys has to say on this subject. I actually tried the controlish method in Four Horsemen, and I was never completely satisfied with it. And that deck was better suited for it than this one is for sure since it was slower to go off and Cabal Therapy[cards] was superb in that deck with [cards]Narcomoebas that were just perfect to sacrifice.

3. I figured in my statements of the spoiler thread that exiling the extra copy would be a snap considering all of the fine tools we had for the task. Boy was I short sighted. You basically do not want Murderous Cut for the job since you would be using it before going off on something like Thalia or Meddling Mage or whatever prevents you from winning. There are a lot of scenarios that mean you can not be casting it on your highly-stack-sensitive upkeep and expect a decent opponent to just let that happen. And besides, the one mana is a big deal. The Faerie works better - and gets around Canonist nicely, but is only good for that one job, really. What I think we need are Dark Rituals to assist the Lotus Petals.

More on this later.

Thoughts?

[Malchar]

You can cast intuition for three hedrons and end up with one in hand. Then cast infernal tutor to get the fourth hedron into your hand. In this case, infernal tutor acts like an extra copy of hedron giving you more chances to assemble the combo. The odds are improved, so you need to find one of four copies of intuition plus one of eight copies of hedron or tutor. Tutor is also a "wild card" finding either of the two pieces if you are hellbent.

Aside from tutor, I would imagine an ideal play sequence like this:
Turn 1: Island, Relic of Progenitus
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Hedron
Turn 3: upkeep trigger, respond with Intuition and relic to win.

You can get a lot of redundancy in relic effects and fast mana which gives you many more chances to get the dream hand. You can also take a turn off to cast cantrips and setup protection if you need to. Playing draw-go with a blue deck isn't the worst place to be.

It's a shame that force of will and chrome mox don't work nicely with intuition. You would have to regrowth one hedron, and it that point it's starting to become a four card combo.

[Kagehisa]

I was trying to resolve a Hedron Alignment + Gift Ungiven scenario.

The candidates to the pile were Entomb, Extract, Hedron Alignment, Regrowth, Snapcaster Mage, Surgical Extraction, Infernal Tutor, Flash of Insight, LDV and Pull from Eternity. Then I realized the cards needed to be instant speed. I gave up.

The theory behind is simple. Extract was supposed to exile one Hedron, Entomb to put one in the graveyard, etc.

Still... Surgical Extraction is free if you need it to exile one Hedron. You can even have a look at your opponent's hand by targeting any card in his/her graveyard.

I am sure there's someone on the forum who can resolve the puzzle!

[rufus]

I was trying to resolve a Hedron Alignment + Gift Ungiven scenario.

...

I am sure there's someone on the forum who can resolve the puzzle!

I think it's too hard. You could pile together something like Insidious Dreams, Intuition,Gifts Ungiven and Think Twice, but the opponent will do you in while you're futzing about.

[Cire]

Aside from tutor, I would imagine an ideal play sequence like this:
Turn 1: Island, Relic of Progenitus
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Hedron
Turn 3: upkeep trigger, respond with Intuition and relic to win.


Surgical Extraction also does the same thing as Relic for 2 life instead of 1 mana ("Any number of cards" means just that. If you wish, you can choose to leave some or all of the cards with the same name as the targeted card, including that card, in the zone they're in.)

So full on combo will be?

Turn 1: U/W land, Relic of Progenitus (If you have Surgical, you can use this turn for tutor, or even mox plus scroll)
Turn 2: Sol Land, Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox + exile, Enlightened tutor, Gitaxian Probe/Street Wraith, Hedron
Turn 3: If Intuition in hand - upkeep trigger, respond with Intuition and relic to win. - otherwise cast Merchant Scroll.
Turn 4: If you didn't go off turn 3, Repeat turn 3 steps.

9 U/W Lands
8 Sol lands
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Relic of Progentius
4 Intuition
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Hedron
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will

Obviously a lot of that is suboptimal - you may remove the scrolls and accel for more draw/control - but this is the best "all in" list I can come up with.

Edit - less all in, I would remove chrome mox/wraith/scroll for brainstorm, ponder, daze.

[MGB]

Just lost to this deck online on Turn 3 after he played Hedron Alignment turn 2 with Island + Ancient Tomb, then in his upkeep in response to Alignment trigger he cast Intuition for 3 more copies, then used Faerie Macabre to exile one of the copies in his graveyard.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable combo deck.

[Cire]

Just lost to this deck online on Turn 3 after he played Hedron Alignment turn 2 with Island + Ancient Tomb, then in his upkeep in response to Alignment trigger he cast Intuition for 3 more copies, then used Faerie Macabre to exile one of the copies in his graveyard.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable combo deck.

Totally forgot Faerie Macabre!

Here is the "all in deck"

Turn 1: U/W land, If you have Hedron in hand, nothing. If you do not -- Enlightend Tutor.
Turn 2: Sol Land, Hedron
Turn 3: If Intuition in hand - upkeep trigger, respond with Intuition and surgical/Faerie to win. - otherwise cast Merchant Scroll.
Turn 4: If you didn't go off turn 3, Repeat turn 3 steps.

9 U/W Lands
8 Sol lands
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Intuition
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Hedron
4 Force of Will
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Pact of Negation

I think that's pretty good for a turn 3/4 combo deck? Fairly reliable - running 8 draw card, 12 protection spells, and combo pieces which double as draw and maindeck graveyard hate. . . and the enchantment component of the combo cannot be targeted . . . and most cards in the deck pitch to blue.

Seriously that's not bad.

Only cards that really needs to be excised and replaced is the Merchant scroll :tongue:

[jrsthethird]

Just an FYI for anyone who wants to try goofy shit with face-down exile cards: too bad!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/oath-gatewatch-release-notes-2016-01-13


The Hedron Alignment in exile must be face up. If it’s face down, it won’t count, even if you are allowed to look at it.

[Kagehisa]

I think it's too hard. You could pile together something like Insidious Dreams, Intuition,Gifts Ungiven and Think Twice, but the opponent will do you in while you're futzing about.

You are right. It is too hard. With one Hedron already in play AND an Surgical Extraction effect in hand, Gifts Ungiven need this pile:

Hedron Alignment
Entomb
Snapcaster Mage
Regrowth effect (or Noxious Revival if you have a cantrip in hand)

Ideally, the opponent gives Hedron and Entomb in hand. With Hedron in hand, the other 3 cards will end with Entomb being casted.

The worst combinaison for you is Snapcaster Mage and Regrowth. Snapcaster targeting Entomb and Regrowth targeting Hedron.

4 mana for Gifts and 5 mana for Snap, Entomb and Regrowth.

I may be wrong and ashamed.

It's a very very bad 3 cards combo. I am disappointed.

[Malchar]

One if the nice things about casting gifts or intuition is that your opponent has no idea which pieces you actually need. Even if they understand the combo, they don't know which cards you already have in your hand. As hard as it is for us to figure out the right pile, the opponent doesn't even have all the information.

[apple713]

One if the nice things about casting gifts or intuition is that your opponent has no idea which pieces you actually need. Even if they understand the combo, they don't know which cards you already have in your hand. As hard as it is for us to figure out the right pile, the opponent doesn't even have all the information.

Unless they are playing discards or probe.... So maybe they wont know 70% of the time.

I am strongly believe this deck has zero potential over othets in the format. Having played dark depths combo alot , i understand how big of an obstacle waiting until your next upkeep is. It makes you generally unfavored against other combo decks.

Im trying to think of good matchs for this deck and drawing a blank. Liliana seems really good against it. Miracles is probably bad too. Ant is faster so thats not good. The combo is mana intensive so d&t is probably hard. All those. Decks combined make up a large part of the format.

[Cire]

Unless they are playing discards or probe.... So maybe they wont know 70% of the time.

I am strongly believe this deck has zero potential over othets in the format. Having played dark depths combo alot , i understand how big of an obstacle waiting until your next upkeep is. It makes you generally unfavored against other combo decks.

I am not arguing that my version is the best: but as a benefit against Dark Depths, the permanent that needs to land before your next upkeep has hexproof and the combo doesn't require going to combat.

On that note: what is the criteria to be a combo deck contender in this format?

Which dedicated combo deck is the fastest?
Which dedicated combo deck is the most consistent?
Which dedicated combo deck has the most protection?
Can this deck be somewhere in the middle of all of the above?
Is it worth it then?

[apple713]

I am not arguing that my version is the best: but as a benefit against Dark Depths, the permanent that needs to land before your next upkeep has hexproof and the combo doesn't require going to combat.

On that note: what is the criteria to be a combo deck contender in this format?

Which dedicated combo deck is the fastest?
Which dedicated combo deck is the most consistent?
Which dedicated combo deck has the most protection?
Can this deck be somewhere in the middle of all of the above?
Is it worth it then?

Ant and S&T are the gold standard. Reanimator is probably faster but less consistent.

The reason depths lose to other combo is because we die on the opponents turn before we attack. It makes no difference what part of the turn we win on. Its not because other combo decks are removing our token, its because we are 1 turn slower.

Also, depths has a unique advantage of having its combo pieces be lands, thus uncounterable.

[Cire]

Ant and S&T are the gold standard. Reanimator is probably faster but less consistent.

The reason depths lose to other combo is because we die on the opponents turn before we attack. It makes no difference what part of the turn we win on. Its not because other combo decks are removing our token, its because we are 1 turn slower.

Also, depths has a unique advantage of having its combo pieces be lands, thus uncounterable.

How about something like this:



Deck Name
Goldfish
Protection Run


Belcher/Oops all Land/SI
1-2
0?


Ant/reanimator
2-3
7?


Dark Depths
3-4
13?



There should be another column measuring consistency but I don't know how to represent that.

So if we manage to tool the deck to have a win turn of 2-3 and 8+ protection spells or 3-4 and 14+ protection spells, we should be at least in the realm of "Playable"?

Edit - on an unrelated note: if anyone wants to fill up that chart with all the well known combo decks, that would be awesome! Maybe another chart with Search/Draw spells run?

[FTW]

"Oops all lands" is the worst deck ever:


4 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Treetop Village
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Maze of Ith
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


You probably want to cap at 43 lands max.

"Oops All Spells" has a turn 1 goldfish or auto-concedes. The only way it goes off on turn 2 is if you had to mull to 5 and then have the combo but need to draw into another mana source. Otherwise you would keep mulling into oblivion as taking draw steps doesn't really do anything to help the deck. SI has so much redundancy that it rarely gets an unusable 7 and 6, so again, usually turn 1. Belcher, on the other hand, IS actually a "turn 1 to something else" goldfish because of some awkward openers or because Goblin tokens are slow. Consistency for these decks is measured by turn 1 goldfish success rate, which has been determined by computer simulators and extensive playtesting.

For other combo, you probably measure consistency based on number of cards that protect it vs ease to hate out. Anything using the GY becomes easier to hate out, so even though Reanimator can run even more protection than SneakShow (as many counters + discard), I'd call it less consistent because there are more things that stop the combo (i.e. your protection spells are spread thin dealing with more potential obstacles).

This deck really shouldn't use Doomsday. If you are running a deck that intends to resolve Doomsday, there are just other builds (eg Smmemmen LabMan) that also use <=4 dead slots but have more flexible piles to go off through tougher conditions. If you're already resolving Doomsday, you're shooting yourself in the foot by running inferior piles.

I like the Intuition + exile plan. Is Ground Seal overkill to protect the Intuition pile from DRS and friends? You can always exile your own card by casting a Delve spell or using Relic.

[Kagehisa]

@Chrome Mox @Force of Will

If you exile one Hedron Alignment with any of the two cards, Intuition still can do the job if you have an instant speed cantrip. Get 2 Hedron Alignment and Noxious Revival.

@Malchar

It is true but too hard. I made only the pile in the case I have Surgical Extraction in hand but there are many others scenarios to think about.

* "I have Surgical Extraction in hand" pile
* "I have one Hedron in exile" pile
* "I have one Hedron in hand" pile
* "I have one Hedron in graveyard" pile
* "I have Entomb in hand pile" pile
* "I have Entomb in graveyard" pile
* "I have an instant speed cantrip in hand" pile
...
Etc

And... Intuition still being better except maybe for the Gifts Ungiven and Unburial Rites + fatty combo.

[Poron]

Manipulate Fate + Intuition and you have already finished..

[Deadweight]

Intuition still can do the job if you have an instant speed cantrip. Get 2 Hedron Alignment and Noxious Revival.


Manipulate Fate + Intuition and you have already finished..

Fixed card tags. That's not... that's not how Intuition works. You will be left with no Hedron Alignment in hand or on the battlefield.


Just lost to this deck online on Turn 3 after he played Hedron Alignment turn 2 with Island + Ancient Tomb, then in his upkeep in response to Alignment trigger he cast Intuition for 3 more copies, then used Faerie Macabre to exile one of the copies in his graveyard.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable combo deck.

Perfect hand is perfect. Seems like a worse 3-card combo deck to me.


This deck really shouldn't use Doomsday. If you're already resolving Doomsday, you're shooting yourself in the foot by running inferior piles.

I like the Intuition + exile plan. Is Ground Seal overkill to protect the Intuition pile from DRS and friends? You can always exile your own card by casting a Delve spell or using Relic.

So Doomsday is bad. But somehow Hedron Alignment + Intuition + throwing 2 more cards in the combo makes absolute sense? Also, DRS can't exile enchantments from graveyards.

[Kagehisa]

Fixed card tags. That's not... that's not how Intuition works. You will be left with no Hedron Alignment in hand or on the battlefield.

I was lazy to explain step by step but it seems necessary because it is internet.

The combo is Hedron Alignment in play + Intuition casted when the Hedron trigger is on the stack + Faerie Macabre/a delve spell/Surgical Extraction/Relic, etc. Chrome Mox or FOW exiling Hedron was said not attractive because it would make Intuition not able to accomplish its duty. My opinion is that there is a way to make Intuition still work. The condition is having an instant speed cantrip effect.

The scenario is:

Hedron #1 exiled by FOW or Chrome Mox
Hedron #2 in play
Hedron #3 and 4 in library

During upkeep, with Hedron #2 trigger in the stack, cast Intuition for Hedron #3 and 4 and Noxious Revival. Resolve. You now have Hedron #3 and 4 in graveyard (if the opponent is not bad at Magic) and Noxious Revival in hand. Cast it. Resolve. (Hedron #3 on top of library.) Use an instant speed cantrip effect like Brainstorm in hand, SDT in play, Street Wraith, Opt or whatever... Resolve. (Hedron #3 in hand.) Resolve Hedron #2 trigger ability.

Hedron #1 exiled by Chrome Mox or FOW
Hedron #2 in play
Hedron #3 in hand
Hedron #4 in graveyard

Does it work now?

Besides, I have no idea what Poron meant (No offense).

@Ground Seal: it might prevent you from targetting your own Hedron with Faerie Macabre or Surgical Extraction. But maybe you plan using delve spells only. Edit: nevermind... lol

[FTW]

So Doomsday is bad. But somehow Hedron Alignment + Intuition + throwing 2 more cards in the combo makes absolute sense? Also, DRS can't exile enchantments from graveyards.

Doomsday is a good Hedron Alignment enabler. But Hedron Alignment is a bad Doomsday win condition.

If you've resolved Doomsday in a Doomsday deck, you should trivially be able to win (otherwise you built the wrong pile or should have sculpted more before casting Doomsday). The obstacle is sculpting your initial gas and resolving the Doomsday. Beyond that, the deck just wants a set of cards that yields both a compact win condition and options to win around diverse board states. Other versions of Doomsday do that better. So once you have a good Doomsday shell, you have to ask yourself what the point of running Hedron Alignment at all is. It'd be like running Reanimator with Akroma, Angel of Wrath instead of Griselbrand. Sure, you could do it to say that you won games with Akroma. But you'd just be running a worse version of an existing deck (which is bad both for winning and creativity).

Yeah, DRS can't hit it, but lots of other stuff can. Ground Seal is bad but confers some protection. I mean you autolose to Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, so not being vulnerable to those cards seems useful.

[FTW]

Could this work in a BlueChantress shell?


//Creatures: 4
4 Argothian Enchantress

//Enchantments: 29
4 Exploration
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Hedron Alignment
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Propaganda
3 Holistic Wisdom
2 Words of Wind
1 Bearscape

//Spells: 7
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition

//Lands: 20
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Forest
1 Island

//Sideboard: 15
3 Ground Seal
3 Seal of Primordium
4 Force of Will
1 Propaganda
1 Delusions of Mediocrity
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Back to Basics


Instead of trying to combo off immediately (requires many moving pieces, particularly "bad cards"), I tried looking at the problem a different way: How can we put Hedron Alignment in a deck where the card itself doesn't totally suck before you go off? Enter Enchantress. Now, at worst, Alignment is a hexproof cantripping enchantment.

The goal is to take control of the game (which this particular build may not do well, but other variations might do better) and then win with Alignment when you have the appropriate pieces.

As before, Intuition solves the issue of getting Alignment into the hand and/or GY zone. Drawing through your deck should solve the issue of getting one in hand and/or in play. Instead of having to run MD GY hate that is otherwise card disadvantage, Holistic Wisdom can both get Alignment into exile and solve the issue of too many copies in the wrong zone. Too many copies stuck in GY? You can return one to hand (and then either exile it, play it, or keep it in hand). Too many copies in hand and none in exile? It's easy to exile one. Words of Wind even lets you deal with the issue of too many copies on the battlefield. Bearscape can exile a copy too. Between all these tools, you can easily solve the problem of Hedrons getting stuck in the wrong zone (as long as you don't get 2 in exile... so aim to exile a copy at the very end, with win on the stack).

Now, none of these options are fast, but they do give you an inevitable enchantment-based "I Win" for the deck once you can lock the game down. The deck also has a Plan B win condition via Words locking out the game.

Holistic Wisdom has some interesting interactions with the rest of the deck, letting you pitch redundant enchantments to recycle control pieces. Intuition also tutors for a lot of useful Enchantress things, even 1-ofs thanks to Holistic Wisdom engine.

Post-board you have a couple protection options:
-countermagic to protect against disruption
-Ground Seal to protect against GY meddling
-more anti-aggro to stay alive
-plan C (Emrakul), which doubles as anti-mill

Maybe this is just a worse version of current Blue Enchantress, although I'd argue the current version doesn't have a way to combo out like this. Or, maybe this could be tuned better.

[Finn]

FTW, that may work. I really do not know, as it is a different deck. Would it be better than the Enchantress deck that already exists though? If not, don't bother.

Question:
The deck absolutely needs a free card that exiles from the graveyard. So, Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre? I have been testing with the fairy, but it is often stuck in my hand. I actually think that Extraction will do the same, but I am open to suggestion about it. Having a Relic or two is almost certainly advisable, as once it is deployed it serves the same purpose. But of course it suffers the same problem.

With all of this graveyard hate, I am wondering if there is some cool way we can make other decks depend on their graveyards more than they typically would and then make them pay for it. I had a deck that did this back in the Treasure Cruise era when decks were even more blue-centric to modest success. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28913-DECK-The-Extractor&highlight=extraction

Possibly a small package like this:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Extirpate
2 Archive Trap

I'm not sure if that will do, so here is a compromise.

4 Hedron Alignment
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Murderous Cut

2 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
2 Island


The Conjurer's Baubles are for Thoughtseize and company. In the spirit of durdling, I am also wondering about Snapcasters and Cabal Therapy again. This setup works well with Surgical Extraction and Intuition.

[FTW]

Why Surgical Extraction main? Would you just target one copy and then "fail to find" the others so you don't have to exile the other in your GY and the one in your hand? You're just using it as a 0cc Coffin Purge then, which makes me wonder if Macabre would be better because it at least blocks Delver.

So my understanding is this plays out as a 3-card combo:
1 - Cast Alignment for 2U
2 - Upkeep, with trigger on stack, Intuition for 2U into 3 Alignments
3 - With trigger still on stack, use 0cc exile to exile one copy

It looks like your list is just cantrips and FoW and mana acceleration, trying to power out this combo as quickly as possible.

Realistically, no matter how many cantrips and sol lands you throw in, this is not going to be even one of the top 5 fastest combo decks in the format. Legacy just already has consistent combo decks that goldfish faster. Even rogue decks like Food Chain can go off at a similar clock but with fewer moving pieces needed to start.

Instead of just trying to go off quickly, what if you play the same Alignment+Intuition+exile strategy but in a Ux control-combo shell? Sort of like the role Splinter Twin had in Modern. Sure, the deck could just go off on turn 4. But more often the deck played out as an interactive Ux deck that could disrupt other linear decks but could also threaten to go "Oops, I win" once the game is under control. That may be your best niche, since otherwise you're trying to all-out goldfish a 3-card combo that involves resolving 2 3cc spells...

A lot of the cards would be the same, except you could play more interaction in place of some of the dig spells and mana accel.

E.g.


//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Innocent Blood
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Murderous Cut

//Combo: 7
4 Hedron Alignment
3 Intuition

//Other Permanents: 8
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

//Sideboard: 15
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Abyss
2 Flusterstorm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Spell Snare
2 Disfigure
1 Noxious Revival
1 Intuition
2 Inquisition of Kozilek


Or something roughly like that. You'll probably get random incidental value from Relic shutting off DRS and Delve stuff, and in a pinch it at least cantrips for you.

Web of Inertia might be interesting to shut off creatures in such a deck until you can assemble the win. Or Ensnaring Bridge maybe.

[Finn]

Some results to report. I playtested this list extensively over the weekend:

4 Hedron Alignment
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Murderous Cut

1 Coffin Purge
2 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Mox Diamond

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island

I began the first maybe six or seven games with the Lotus Petals when I realized something I really should have seen without the bother of testing. Lotus Petal is entirely wrong since you need exactly three mana two turns in a row, with the second turn being on your upkeep. So the Petals can almost never save you a turn. I switched them to basically Mox Diamonds and tweaked the mana base.

Goldfishing (22 games):

Wins on my upkeep on turn...
1 (0 times)
2 (0)
3 (6)
4 (11)
5 (4)
6 and up (1)

These numbers tell me that it is remarkably smooth and reliable. I got this far with two other combo decks in the past that were rogue at the time, Four Horsemen and Belcher. Four Horsemen was less consistent in a lot of ways. Belcher reliably went of on turn 2 at the latest, often winning a turn or two later attacking with tokens. But that does mean an actual kill turn between 1 and 4. This deck nearly equals that.

Against Pox:

Abysmal. Sinkhole hurts. Smallpox is terribly hard to overcome. I actually do not know if it is typical for Smallpox to hinder combo decks so much. Hymn to Tourach is about the same. All in all, painful games. I won a few of these because I extracted all of his good win conditions and we played on pointlessly until he realized he was going through his deck faster and with fewer cards left in it. It hurts to recall this again. Learning experience...deep breaths. Moving on.

Against Death and Taxes:

Decent. All preboard, I won 6 of 10. The DnT board is scary though, so it does not look great. Like all combo decks facing DnT I won a lot when I did not see Thalia and I lost when I did.

Against Shardless BUG

Bad. Thoughtseize in this deck pretty much sends me go into a tailspin. The Conjurer's Baubles are supposed to help with that but they are not strong. I think that a sideboard could be assembled to handle the combination of Force of Will and discard. But at what expense?


Upcoming changes to reflect issues.
It is terribly fragile. If they counter Alignment or make you discard it, the whole deck nearly unravels. The problem is that the tools to repair the situation are weak and useless as far as enabling the deck in other circumstances. I view this as a deal-breaker for building the deck fast. I want to reimagine it as control with a combo finish, similar to what some folks in this thread have advocated, and what I have hinted at. Here's a start:

4 Hedron Alignment
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Archive Trap
1 Recall

3 Baleful Strix

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Murderous Cut

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
3 Island

This deck should be lots of fun to play because of all of the cool interactions. Recall really is not the best, but my efforts with Shrouded Lore were very bad. My figuring is that my next tests will reiterate the problems with having an Alignment end up in the graveyard, but fill me in on the details of how to manage the deck in a longer game.

[apple713]

Stuff



I would imagine chrome mox is better because if the low land count and synergy with hedron.

Also, i cant imagine why you have archive trap included.

Side note, mono blue control has not prrformed well in legacy for as long as i can remember. Other formats have had success but i dont know that you will have what you need without opening your self up to other color options.

At this point wherr you play a slow control deck thats rather weak with a fragile combo, what is the advantage over other decks?

[rufus]

I want to see Hedron Archive in a troll mode deck like:


4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
4 Intution

4 Hedron Archive
4 Embargo
4 Pucca's Mischief
4 Thought Lash

4 Maelstrom Djinn

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Island


More seriously:

What about Day's Undoing or Diminishing Returns as a way to put stuff back into the library?

[Finn]

I did a good bit more testing of this and it feels pretty fragile because of the fact that you must have complete control of the zone each of the four cards are in for victory. It goldfishes brilliantly, but both discard and countermagic are very hard to combat. I am thetefor done with this deck for now.

[Malchar]

Against discard it might be time to use skull of orm :)

[Blastoderm]

I love the idea but you're soft to abrupt decay as well as graveyard hate :(

EDIT: Oh shit it has hexproof! I'm an idiot.

[Freggle]

To piggyback on what FTW said a page ago this might be a good to great enchantment combo deck.

I don't think you want to to be Enchantress, but you can use the engine of:

4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Sylvan Library
[potentially] 4 Enchantress's Presence / Ponder / Brainstorm

You have a really good exile spell in Oblivion Ring

And a solid back-up plan in Replenish post replenish exile 1 with oring, and put one back in the yard with seal of primordium
…or Sylvan Library / Words of Wind Combo

You have hate for common hate in

Seal of Cleansing / Seal of Primordium
Stony Silence
Oblivion ring
Ground Seal

Or you could have a transformational board into RIP / Helm, and or maindeck Parallax Wave // Opalescence combo --exiles all non-hexproof Enchantments and creatures at instant speed, and makes your dudes pseudo vigilant.

So with a list like the one below you have the following combos:

Insight or Commune into Replenish to cheat piles of enchantments into play. –Perhaps Herdon Combo

Words of wind - Sylvan -- you can replace your additional draws to bounce up to 3 a turn per Sylvan.

herndon combo

The List:

3 Replenish
4 Kruphix's Insight
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Hedron Alignment
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Sylvan Library
3 Words of Wind
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Opalescence

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest

[Finn]

Freggle, the combo itself is very strong and compact. Intuition on upkeep is an extremely strong wincon. Fitting this into anything else simply weakens the best part of the deck.

It's problem is its susceptibility to hate and the lack of good redundancy.

[atosecond]

I actually think Thing in the Ice fits the Combo-Control game plan very well, but I'd defer to Finn.

Not sure if this makes a mono-U variant viable.

I do definitely prefer discard in general to counters in decks like these.

[Finn]

Darn. I still have this built and I really do win a lot of games with it. It has all of the same problems as ever. But the deck wins so resoundingly rather often.

I have to wonder if going into green for Regrowth and/or Abrupt Decay is worth the effort. Regrowth would certainly go a long way to shoring up the fragility, but I probably lose nearly a full turn on average.

[btm10]

Darn. I still have this built and I really do win a lot of games with it. It has all of the same problems as ever. But the deck wins so resoundingly rather often.

I have to wonder if going into green for Regrowth and/or Abrupt Decay is worth the effort. Regrowth would certainly go a long way to shoring up the fragility, but I probably lose nearly a full turn on average.

You also get Krosan Grip to break up relevant Graveyard hate, get to play mana dorks like Hierarch or DRS, as well as some enchantment synergies. You could even go Bant for combo-control and even more enchantment synergies.

[atosecond]

Darn. I still have this built and I really do win a lot of games with it. It has all of the same problems as ever. But the deck wins so resoundingly rather often.

I have to wonder if going into green for Regrowth and/or Abrupt Decay is worth the effort. Regrowth would certainly go a long way to shoring up the fragility, but I probably lose nearly a full turn on average.

What about Noxious Revival Finn?

Phyrexian mana, instant speed, shouldn't be too bad at slowing the deck down.

[Finn]

We disregarded noxious revival back when we first considered it. But honestly nobody ever tested it that I know of. Reconsidering it though, it really seems good for what this deck wants. Being instant and free is great for outmaneuvering hate too. And you don't really HAVE to go into green for it.

Hmm.

[Smea.gol.lum]

We disregarded noxious revival back when we first considered it. But honestly nobody ever tested it that I know of. Reconsidering it though, it really seems good for what this deck wants. Being instant and free is great for outmaneuvering hate too. And you don't really HAVE to go into green for it.

Hmm.

Noxious Revival could be fine as a 1-of. Then you can make an Intuition pile consisting of 2 Hedron Alignments and 1 Noxious Revival in case of having exiled Hedron Alignment already (e.g. via FoW).

Other cards to consider:
Ancestral Knowledge (digs 10 cards deep for Intuition while exiling Alignment in top 10 if wanted, could be too slow though)
Rite of Undoing (exiles Alignment in gy, slows down opponent, creates card advantage in conjunction with SDT: tap SDT, in resp bounce it, requires you to run enough permanents that you can bounce though, e.g. SDT, Knowledge, CB, Copy Enchantment)
Copy Enchantment (copy Alignment, bounce Alignment with Rite of Undoing later on)