[Developmental] Blue Prison --- AKA “You Dropped Something”

[Freggle]

Blue Prision

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=24597&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=6078&type=card

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=299&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=88799&type=card


Inspired by the unbanning of Black Vise Blue Prison is a prison deck that uses bounce spells in conjunction with Overburden and Mana Breach to create a game state in which your opponent can only cast 1 mana spells and therefore locking your opponents choices and stranding cards in their hand. Once the lock is achieved the deck wins via Black Vise and Ebony Owl Netsuke.

The current List:

Maindeck:

4 Vapor Snag
4 Overburden
3 Vision Skeins
4 Boomerang
3 Eye of Nowhere
4 Mana Breach
2 Wipe Away
2 Whelming Wave
4 Howling Mine
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
4 Black Vise
22 Island

Sideboard:
3 Chill
4 Arcane Laboratory
3 Propaganda
1 Whelming Wave
4 Force of Will

How to play:
Generally you want to lock your opponent down first and then drop the kill pieces, but be an opportunist. If you have 2 mana and your opponent has 7 cards drop owl.
You can steal some games with t1 vise, t2 owl if your opponent is still at 7 cards that is 10 damage. Then you just use your bounce spells to keep them off of mana, and forget the lock pieces.

Don't Forget:
You can redirect Owl and Vise to damage planeswalkers.
Lands are permanents, so you can use the bounce spells to increase the lock.


The deck is surprisingly competitive, and I think with community improvement it can easily become tier 2, or since it’s blue tier 1.

It’s currently weak to combo, and excels against any creature strategy. The deck may be able to lose the chills and some others out of the board to potentially pick up combo fighters like Chalice of the Void or one I’m eager to test Sphere of Resistance

I think Sphere of Resistance would be the better call here so you can play magic against and possibly crush decks that don’t play with mana i.e. dredge. Sphere also helps stop Food Chain.deck which seems to be increasing in popularity.

Thoughts and feedback, or ideas to push this pile to the next level is appreciated.

[Dice_Box]

You left out Back to Basis and Echoing Truth.

Looks interesting but why would I seek to play this over Stax, Red Stax or even Owling Mine/Turbo Fog? What do you think are it's strengths over those decks?

[mistercakes]

i would consider root maze. it makes artifacts come into play tapped as well, which is great vs combo and it makes your howling mines come into play tapped - which may or may not be desirable.

[Dice_Box]

But sadly it's not Blue.

[Redkid43]

Why no Force of Will main?

[Stuart]

Interesting budget build - could be fun. Have you thought about Remand or Memory Lapse?

[apple713]

i don't see how it has that much trouble with combo. Against ANT you can bounce a card to their hand so infernal tutor fails. Against Dark depths you have so much bounce for the token. Against Sneak and show they pretty much have to use sneak attack because of all of the bounce.


You left out Back to Basis and Echoing Truth.

Looks interesting but why would I seek to play this over Stax, Red Stax or even Owling Mine/Turbo Fog? What do you think are it's strengths over those decks?

Back to the basics wouldn't hurt because everything bounces lands to their hand. The decks lock would actually turn into a benefit for BtB.

Stay does not have the luxury of dealing with permanents. Sure if the lock happens permanents get sacrificed eventually but the bounce can target unlike other stay variants. This is pretty much a tempo deck.


Interesting budget build - could be fun. Have you thought about Remand or Memory Lapse?

Remand seems to fit better to put a card in their hand but even then its possibly too weak unless you hit something for 3+ mana. A lot of decks are very cheaply costed and remand is not so great when you have to remand a 1 cmc spell.


I think fow is probably necessary main deck because you need to make on curve plays but also protect your lock pieces. Fow would also help against combo. With howling mine in play you should have enough blue cards to where the card disadvantage isn't too painful

[Freggle]

Looks like Apple713 beat me to answering the questions by a few minutes:

Back to Basics - Wasn't tested, but as Apple713 Said you bounce lands so they untap. It's not ideal.

Echoing Truth - Tested- Can not target lands and therefore can not help in achieving the early game steals, and was cut and not missed.

Root Maze - was not tested, and I would be open to adding a splash color if it pushed the deck over the edge. Perhaps I'll test it.

Force of Will - was tested Main - It's better in the board to fight combo. Most games you would rather just concentrate on keeping your opponent off of mana so they can not cast cards you would want to force.

Remand - Not Tested - Could potentially be good.

Memory Lapse - Not tested - Would not play this many of this type of effect and Remand would get the nod over this.

As Apple713 Stated this is basically a tempo prison with a pretty strong soft lock. Cards that deviate from keeping parity are generally not desired.

@ Apple713 - Have you tested it, or just can see how it works? I have not not bounced things vs ant because I was too focused on trying cards like Mana Maze to shore-up the MU. As you stated maybe I was just over thinking it.

This deck vs:

Stax & Red Stax - You have more control over the game state. If something slips through you bounce it. You also have the potential to soft lock and kill earlier. T4 or T5.

Turbo Fog - Way more control over the game. In many games your opponent can not play Magic.

[sjmcc13]

What is your game plan against storm. Mana breach does not make bouncing the land a cost, so they can still sculpt a hand a go combo off, and bouncing a land does not help necessarially help against LED.

I would also expect problems with Sneak and Show since it can drop Emrakul of just 2 lands, and you have 1 answer to him in the deck.

[Freggle]

What is your game plan against storm. Mana breach does not make bouncing the land a cost, so they can still sculpt a hand a go combo off, and bouncing a land does not help necessarily help against LED.

I would also expect problems with Sneak and Show since it can drop Emrakul of just 2 lands, and you have 1 answer to him in the deck.

At this time those are 2 tough MU's as stated in the primer this deck does have trouble with combo, but since it is blue I think it could be fixed. I think testing Sphere of Resistance will help in both MU as we try to keep opponent off the needed mana to combo. This will also help fix an issue with Dredge.

I posted this list not to get it vetted by the pros as a complete work of art. I posted this list as a basis of something that can potentially be a very good deck. I do not have the time for Magic as I once did and I thought a community of like minded individuals may / should be able to tune it to its best end result faster.

Do you have suggestions to shore-up those MUs? Remand if Mana Breach is on the table can buy a lot if time, and it may be enough time to kill, or find the 1 of outs.

Edit: Perhaps Seal of Removal to help with Emrakul? ...or Envelop for both mu's?

[Megadeus]

I could see this deck wanting a couple of chrome mox

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Is Counterbalance an option? Granted, you cannot use SDT, but even blind flips might be annoying enough, especially considering your curve that's low enough for an opponent that's forced to play with one land.

Also, should you play Brainstorm and fetches? Switching unnecessary Vises/boomerangs for the other cards might be useful, but then again this decks looks to be operating on density, not quality/filtering, so maybe it's not a good idea. However: Legacy, blue deck... no BS?

edit: Curfew for Emrakul.dec matchup?

Btw, isn't there some Mine with flash? I thought it is, but I got no idea if I dreamt about it...
And... that blue artifact shroud 7/11 monstrosity that Reanimator used to play, it's leviathan, right? Kinda funny that it's the only guy that survives our WoG. :-D

One last note: the deck should be called Blue Vise. :really:

[apple713]

Memory Lapse - Not tested - Would not play this many of this type of effect and Remand would get the nod over this.

As Apple713 Stated this is basically a tempo prison with a pretty strong soft lock. Cards that deviate from keeping parity are generally not desired.

@ Apple713 - Have you tested it, or just can see how it works? I have not not bounced things vs ant because I was too focused on trying cards like Mana Maze to shore-up the MU. As you stated maybe I was just over thinking it.


i haven't tested it but I know it works... Its intuitive game mechanics. When opponent casts infernal tutor to grab something, he'll also activate LED to get the hellbent on infernal tutor. After LED resolves but before infernal tutor does, you simple bounce a land to their hand. Since they cannot play the land before infernal tutor resolves they will no have hellbent and infernal tutor will get them another land instead of what they want.


I could see this deck wanting a couple of chrome mox

yes. However the list seems rather tight. Without testing it would be hard to recommend what to cut.


Is Counterbalance an option? Granted, you cannot use SDT, but even blind flips might be annoying enough, especially considering your curve that's low enough for an opponent that's forced to play with one land.

Also, should you play Brainstorm and fetches? Switching unnecessary Vises/boomerangs for the other cards might be useful, but then again this decks looks to be operating on density, not quality/filtering, so maybe it's not a good idea. However: Legacy, blue deck... no BS?

edit: Curfew for Emrakul.dec matchup?

Btw, isn't there some Mine with flash? I thought it is, but I got no idea if I dreamt about it...
And... that blue artifact shroud 7/11 monstrosity that Reanimator used to play, it's leviathan, right? Kinda funny that it's the only guy that survives our WoG. :-D

One last note: the deck should be called Blue Vise. :really:

curfew also hits TNN but it seems more cute than practical. If those decks are indeed a problem then id consider it. Counterbalance won't give you the value you want from it. Its passive and uncontrollable.

You can't really run cantrips in here because they also cost you a land drop sometimes. Without cantrips it becomes hard to control the consistency. Maybe theres another way to accomplish this without casing spells.

[Weapon X]

Why not just play stasis instead? Bouncing lands is hardly a minus. At the very least your deck should play chrome mox to get the spells you want to play online. I would suggest something closer to the old sea stompy list at a minimum for mana considerations. Saving a city of traitors seems powerful if you want to keep that plan although chalice and 3sphere would just be stronger.

I think that covers my thoughts for now.

[Blastoderm]

Needs more Stasis!!!

[rufus]

Dictate of Kruphix is the "mine with flash".

Hoodwink has a different versatility profile than Eye of Nowhere.

You almost certainly want Tabernacle.

In a deck like this, I'd be sorely tempted to splash red for cards like Active Volcano, Wheel of Fate and Reforge the Soul

There's an old concept with Land Equilibrium.

This concept seems pretty weak vs Manabond decks.

...

There's an alternative approach with cards that limits spells per turn like Abeyance, Ethersworn Cannonist, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Rule of Law and Arcane Laboratory.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This deck tickles my prison bone. I'm missing a lot of the cards to build it though so I'll have to pick them up - I will follow development in the meantime.

[jrsthethird]

This deck tickles my prison bone. I'm missing a lot of the cards to build it though so I'll have to pick them up - I will follow development in the meantime.

Acid Rain SB? ;)

[ReAnimator]

Reality Acid might be worth trying, can do some cool things with self bouncing. I feel like there has to be some playable ETB lands to work with the Mana Breaches. saprazzan skerry?

I know blue mana is at a premium here but, it feels like wastelands or manlands could really be decent here.

If the green splash is tried out, Exploration seems worth a look.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Acid Rain SB? ;)

Gotta hate on Elves somehow amirite?


Reality Acid might be worth trying, can do some cool things with self bouncing. I feel like there has to be some playable ETB lands to work with the Mana Breaches. saprazzan skerry?

I know blue mana is at a premium here but, it feels like wastelands or manlands could really be decent here.

If the green splash is tried out, Exploration seems worth a look.

I like the idea of a green splash because it allows us to play Root Maze. Exploration seems great as well, but that might be just too many slots.

[Moczoc]

I like this deck and its concept a lot, I tested some games against some popular variants of Chalice/Ancient Tomb Aggro decks and Blue Prison won easily.

The green splash seems interesting, especially with the addition of Sylvan Library + Words of Wind. And obviously Root Maze. But I think it will take up so much slots that it will become another deck. (Other splashes could be white for Reflecting Mage and black for Clutch of the Undercity.


So, I will share my ideas for the mono U version.

Mark of Eviction: slow but steady bounce for creatures

Snap: essentially free, maybe not really with Mana Breach

Capsize: buyback

Cryptic Command: cmc 4 but very strong effects


possible combos:

symmetrical creature-bounce like Æther Tradewinds and Curfew with creatures like Venser and Manowar

Seat of the Synod with Transmute Artifact to find multiple Black Vises and/or one oder two toolbox artifacts like Æther Spellbomb

[wsurugby10]

This happened today http://www.gatheringmagic.com/carlosgutierrez-02012016-daily-deck-list-mono-blue-prison/ Maybe that will drive some people to the thread and help us develop the deck more.

[serentius]

I have been musing about a deck like this for a while and have just recently gotten a list together. Many of the same core cards as original example here.
I had been trying out 4 Kami of the Crescent Moon and 2 Swans of Bryn Argoll instead of some of the card draw mentioned above and am running the 4 Remand . Have a maindeck more or less together, am head scratching about the sideboard. Will post a deck list here soon - I am stoked to find that this is a thing and I'm not just crazy.

Here's the current list, I've dropped 2 Kami in favor of 2x Arcane Denial otherwise known as a slightly worse 5th and 6th Remand

Creatures (4)

2x Swans of Bryn Argoll
2x Kami of the Crescent Moon


Instants & Sorceries (22)

2x Arcane Denial
2x Disrupt
2x Vapor Snag
4x Eye of Nowhere
4x Remand
4x Boomerang
4x Gigadrowse


Artifacts & Enchantments (14)

2x Ebony Owl Netsuke
2x Overburden
2x Isochron Scepter
3x Mana Breach
4x Black Vise


Lands (20)

20x Island


Still wondering on the sideboard. Isochron Scepter + Boomerang = money when you are on turn 4 or 5 and are pulling out ahead thanks to always dropping a basic island and returning 1 or more cards to their hand every turn.
I'm pretty married to keeping the Swans in for now - against any sort of aggro or even burn they are pretty damn good. In test games (when still running the 4x Kami) I often secured the kill a turn or two early thanks to simply hitting them with a Kami or two and a Swans one time.

Initial playtests imply that the creatures are quite novel. You are bouncing their stuff enough (and the Swans have flying) that poking them with Kami or swinging even one time with swans can increase the threat level a noticeable amount.

For the sideboard I am thinking of definitely running the extra couple Vapor Snags in the SB, perhaps the other couple Disrupts as well. Probably an extra Overburden also?

[ozimek]

Interesting concept with some unusual interactions. I have a few (rules) questions:

Will a spell cast off of Isocron Scepter trigger Mana Breach?

Can you bounce the opponent's lands with Forbidden Orchard and Overburden? If so, that would be a pretty sweet lock (with Propaganda).

Some suggestions, purely based on theory:

City of Traitors seems pretty good here, but is the deck too hungry for blue mana?

Chalice of the Void would probably improve the combo matchup, as you could shut down Moxen, Petals, and LED's.

Pithing Needle might be another solution that could also deal with Deathrite Shaman, and various mana rocks.. I imagine turn 1 fetch -> DRS is pretty good vs. this deck? Æther Vial seems like another very problematic card that Pithing Needle could shut down.

A few questions on playing the deck:
In general, how many creatures can be allowed to slip through the cracks? I'm guessing it often comes down to a racing situation between i.e. a Delver and Vises? In other words: Do you often find yourself in difficult situations where you must prioritize between bouncing a threat or a land?

How many lands are you typically able to have in play? After Mana Breach I suppose having more than three lands in play is difficult?

How about the recent Eldrazi menace? Eye of Ugin and mini-Eldrazis seem very problematic. Propaganda solves the problem? Also, they might play Thorn of Amethyst, which is harsh.

[AlterEgo]

Interesting concept with some unusual interactions. I have a few (rules) questions:

Will a spell cast off of Isocron Scepter trigger Mana Breach?
Yes, because iScepter makes you CAST the copy.


Can you bounce the opponent's lands with Forbidden Orchard and Overburden? If so, that would be a pretty sweet lock (with Propaganda).
No you can't, because Overburden says "nontoken creature" (or creature CARD if you read the printed version, which means the same in ancient Magic speak)

[Clark Kant]

Awesome deck Freggle. I'll try putting it together and taking it for a spin.

Is the list in the OP still the most current one or have you made any improvements to it in the past two months?

[Freggle]

Awesome deck Freggle. I'll try putting it together and taking it for a spin.

Is the list in the OP still the most current one or have you made any improvements to it in the past two months?

I've played the deck quite a few games, but haven't really changed much.

MD:
-2 Vapor snag
+2 Seal of Removal

SB:
-4 Arcane Laboratory
+4 Sphere of Resistance

Seal is preferred for more T1 plays on the play (if no vice) so no tempo loss, and can hit Emrakul.

Sphere is a good catch all for things too fast or that ignores the game plan. i.e. dredge, Food chain, Storm, Show and Tell...

I'd be interested in any feedback anyone would have on any splashes as I have not tried them.

[Captain Hammer]

Fevered Visions seems like it's tailor made for this deck. Howling Mine always seemed like the weakest card in the deck anyways.

It's basically Howling Mine + Ebony Owl combined into the same card.

You could go to...
-4 Howling Mine
-1 Vision Skeins
-2 Ebony Owl
+4 Fevered Visions
+1 Eye of Nowhere
+2 Arcane Denial

to your maindeck to tighten the deck up a bit more all while bringing the number of win conditions up to 10.

or alternatively for
+2 Vapor Snag/Seal of Removal
or
+2 Mark of Eviction/Snap/Capsize/Some of the other cards suggested in this thread.

[Freggle]

Fevered Visions seems like it's tailor made for this deck. Howling Mine always seemed like the weakest card in the deck anyways.

It's basically Howling Mine + Ebony Owl combined into the same card.

You could go to...
-4 Howling Mine
-1 Vision Skeins
-2 Ebony Owl
+4 Fevered Visions
+1 Eye of Nowhere
+2 Arcane Denial

to your maindeck to tighten the deck up a bit more all while bringing the number of win conditions up to 10.

or alternatively for
+2 Vapor Snag/Seal of Removal
or
+2 Mark of Eviction/Snap/Capsize/Some of the other cards suggested in this thread.

This is very interesting. It doesn't pack as hard of a punch as owl but save some deck slots. Adding Red to the deck will also require fetches which will by default add some Draw quality over the length of the game. I will test and see how it plays out. Although I LOVE Arcane Denial I sure Remand get the first call (because of Arcane's may clause) then denial. ...but actually countering the spell with Arcane means something.

[plswhywow]

Would someone please make a non-budget version of this for me with fetches and cantrips and tabernacle? I really, really want to play it but want it to be at least tier 2.5 and somewhat consistent.

[Captain Hammer]

Would someone please make a non-budget version of this for me with fetches and cantrips and tabernacle? I really, really want to play it but want it to be at least tier 2.5 and somewhat consistent.
Good point on Tabernacle. There's no good reason not to play it here.


A version playing
Tabernacle
Fetch lands + Light red splash
Brainstorm
Fevered Visions

in lieu of subpar cards like Howling Mine and Vision Skeins, could easily be a competitive deck.

[plswhywow]

Good point on Tabernacle. There's no good reason not to play it here.


A version playing
Tabernacle
Fetch lands + Light red splash
Brainstorm
Fevered Visions

in lieu of subpar cards like Howling Mine and Vision Skeins, could easily be a competitive deck.

Do you think Ponder is worth considering as well, or is that too many slots? I'd like to brew something up today along these lines that you stated.

Do you think we could get away with 3 fevered vision, 1 volc and 1 mountain? What about disrupts and remands?

[Captain Hammer]

I'm not sure. I don't have much experience with the deck.

In fact, I don't know if Tabernacle is actually worth running.

This might the only deck in existence where you prefer your opponents creatures get bounced back to their owner's hands rather than having your opponents sac them.

If you're worried about the agro matchup, Propaganda seems like a better and more synergic way to deal with creatures than Tabernacle for this deck.

[plswhywow]

I'm not sure. I don't have much experience with the deck.

In fact, I don't know if Tabernacle is actually worth running.

This might the only deck in existence where you prefer your opponents creatures get bounced back to their owner's hands rather than having your opponents sac them.

If you're worried about the agro matchup, Propaganda seems like a better and more synergic way to deal with creatures than Tabernacle for this deck.

I actually think you may be right! Regardless, I'd like to figure out a good fetchland/brainstorm/ponder balance along with the other cards.

[plswhywow]

I'm not sure. I don't have much experience with the deck.

In fact, I don't know if Tabernacle is actually worth running.

This might the only deck in existence where you prefer your opponents creatures get bounced back to their owner's hands rather than having your opponents sac them.

If you're worried about the agro matchup, Propaganda seems like a better and more synergic way to deal with creatures than Tabernacle for this deck.

Thoughts?

4x Flooded Stand
4x Scalding Tarn
13x Island

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

3x Force of Will
2x Disrupt / 2x Remand

4x Black Vise
4x Ebony Owl

4x Overburden
3x Mana Breach

4x Boomerang
2x Eye of Nowhere

2x Propaganda
2x Vapor Snag
2x Seal of Removal

[serentius]

Ok - did a fair amount of playtesting with a mostly identical deck list to what I posted here previously.

Fought against some Storm decks - usually got butchered but managed to lock them each once or twice, not a great matchup. My clock is usually slow enough that you really need some heavy answers / must-answer counters, or simply a lot of disruption. Otherwise they can usually find a path to win which includes some protection for their combo before you've sealed the deal.

Fought against a Mono Red Burn deck - similar results to storm.

Fought against some aggro decks including UBr Delver, UR Delver, Slivers, and Treefolk. The Delver matchups were fairly even; though they had the edge with just enough strong one mana plays to often get the kill before I could.
The Slivers and Treefolk matchups were heavily in my favor - I have so much disruption to creature plays, and a fast enough clock to be squeezing the vise - as it were - pretty hard well before they can get around my lock pieces or play through my disruptions.


I want to try the deck out against some midrange decks (stoneblade, maverick, d&t, etc.) but haven't had the opportunity.

I had already made a couple tweaks to my previous list by the time I played most of these matches, but I spent some time yesterday and today working out a bigger update to the list.


Here's the new list, it features the Chain of Vapor of card draw - Trade Secrets - shit yes!

Creatures (3)

2x Swans of Bryn Argoll
1x Viseling


Instants & Sorceries (24)

4x Remand
4x Boomerang
2x Vapor Snag
4x Condescend
4x Disrupt
2x Trade Secrets
4x Eye of Nowhere


Artifacts & Enchantments (13)

2x Overburden
3x Mana Breach
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Ebony Owl Netsuke
4x Black Vise


Lands

20x Island



Sideboard

1x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Vapor Snag
2x Arcane Laboratory
2x Vision Charm
2x Echoing Truth
2x Null Rod
2x Wipe Away
2x Back to Basics


Will edit this post a bit later with some thoughts/explications of the card changes.

[Gikkman]

Wouldn't say Arcane Laboratory work well in the deck, if combo is a problem? It also makes it hard for decks to get stuff out of their hand.

[Moczoc]

Ok - did a fair amount of playtesting with a mostly identical deck list to what I posted here previously.

Fought against some Storm decks - usually got butchered but managed to lock them each once or twice, not a great matchup. My clock is usually slow enough that you really need some heavy answers / must-answer counters, or simply a lot of disruption. Otherwise they can usually find a path to win which includes some protection for their combo before you've sealed the deal.

Fought against a Mono Red Burn deck - similar results to storm.

Fought against some aggro decks including UBr Delver, UR Delver, Slivers, and Treefolk. The Delver matchups were fairly even; though they had the edge with just enough strong one mana plays to often get the kill before I could.
The Slivers and Treefolk matchups were heavily in my favor - I have so much disruption to creature plays, and a fast enough clock to be squeezing the vise - as it were - pretty hard well before they can get around my lock pieces or play through my disruptions.


I played a small tournament with a list quite similar to that in the opening post. Sadly I've made the same observations. I didn't win a single game, although some were close.

We definitely have to play Fevered Visions. The red splash allows us to play Magma Jet or Izzet Charm. And Pyroclasm in the SB.

I would stay creatureless so that their removal stays useless.

A main problem is that the mana denial often doesn't work. Overburden seemed useless against creature-light decks and Mana Breach only works when it comes on turn 3. We need other denial like Stasis, Back to Basics or Winter Orb.

[Captain Hammer]

I like Fevered Visions but both Magma Jet and Izzet Charm seem very subpar.

Plus, while swapping out Howling Mine with Fevered Vision is an easy substitution to make, the rest of the list is pretty tight. Not sure what if any thing there is for us to cut to make room for red burn spells.

[square_two]

What about using Propaganda effects to handle creatures, and then focus on either bouncing their lands, or blowing them up Armageddon style? Trinisphere could help them stay locked with minimal lands as well.

I'm thinking, if Howling Mine effects are on the board, then players are still constrained to only play 1 land a turn, which we can try to abuse.

[square_two]

Just thought I'd drop in to mention the new Unsubstantiate card being spoiled for the next set. Seems like it could easily have a home here if at all in legacy.

Unsubstantiate 1U
Instant
Return target spell or creature to its owner's hand.

Simple. Feel like it helps overlap between Vapor Snag/Seal of Removal and the Remand/Arcane Denial. It can save Fevered Visions or Black Vise from Abrupt Decay for another turn. The 1U cost is a bit easier for the U/R Fevered Visions list to hit.

I wonder if this makes Isochron Scepter an even more viable inclusion, since it does double duty.

In a version with Fevered Visions + Howling Mine, this could be better than Remand or Arcane Denial since the card draw loss is offset by the extra draw effects going on.

[l33twash0r]

Any tips for MonoU builds? Starting to build this since it looks like fun deck to play.

[wsurugby10]

Has anyone been playing this recently? I'm interested in trying it now as I'm trying to find a new budget deck to bring to my FLGS Legacy tournament. My current deck is bound to be hated on soon.

[mistercakes]

can i recommend adding ankh of mishra to this deck? if they are constantly returning lands to their hand and replaying them this is a pretty consistent source of damage.

[Freggle]

can i recommend adding ankh of mishra to this deck? if they are constantly returning lands to their hand and replaying them this is a pretty consistent source of damage.

Ankh of Mishra is symmetrical, and we both continually return lands to our hands. Your life is most certainly a resource with this deck, and vs an aggro deck you can't be doing any damage to yourself.

...as for the deck I still casually play it. How can I help?

[wsurugby10]

Ankh of Mishra is symmetrical, and we both continually return lands to our hands. Your life is most certainly a resource with this deck, and vs an aggro deck you can't be doing any damage to yourself.

...as for the deck I still casually play it. How can I help?

I'm thinking about putting it together. How competitive do you really think it is? It seems like a great budget option. I'm currently in the of putting together my magic collection and I need something to play.

[Freggle]

I'm thinking about putting it together. How competitive do you really think it is? It seems like a great budget option. I'm currently in the of putting together my magic collection and I need something to play.

for a FLGS event it's fine. I would not recommend in it's current build for an medium sized and up REL event.

[nedleeds]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/o-QXGP5UbA4hXLc0A0b-JKfUM1oE2jQaWzzQYLwuQl4GQaDKU5qrv6lyA-iNcQZfKOsxrCd6dFAm1yx1ch3l1YLnrxiOnfTsgDaMIqP9-eG-VT6ohgjWFVniLihvhHW9rAyK0b70z41x6N8uOG2kzL3wc4xp5P6dY4dsGovuoqJi7JFZpyR42IXCN-zi3sNL4gzUJELEQnIGGrG8S7lAae4ifGYZXHnRB8OdJvxVN9S_a7QjymGiQoVdOkB3OSbOZQfAbM5lOtylndEmJ0GMyDg_2q4FGipfVIxFh1djBfWDGAzPPptoLbavUd6g5r-cNBfeFtygd3f8cDTqMtCvf1jLC_6n-pNeuHpWzYMwEC_jj6_Xb3lZgDfHcUHyVWsGRByzJ-jwe0NGiUshNioqTjdyA02x1fBJ778xUM7tbfUvS8zkol7a_NgsPhuTna6qpjH8czdTEn4YaqSVXmx0Td6a26UY0hpydQSwv3HLVJhoTKtf3hIICYLxubj7cXo2krgVVeCB6DC22Nf4cPVgxwh1EDRg1Q9Iu-hQhhXpQK3GNU8-NtEDfpiJ_mAKCtA1mGK-GjKIV3reEuKIwONcRWT5iBEor5xYZIaCbvJmja_T3UQN0X0d=w1168-h658-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2gEUr_i-Tt2rVLVrSJ3ureHuV_EL5X0UKv0tx8RdOpsEAqSXfLg6FKZ5FTn0g5tNZzbUqPAr98woDLZKH5gnBlHmNnmBAiVWp6o23SjiPbnozeu_QVPUdRVkfs5NEhy5_bltvxaYkgYPXJ-U5jS0iLrsWyP5h4oEckufY7ulHO74asO30va6xZHni78KrsOsgLNL-Uv3ksCJvWjWgnpqm5RzrCQmV02Q9RIGIXH9zb7tcUtRnM7arR7H22lBfyzUw98bqntVJcHcMmUctnVAjJfSi0WoTPli54U6mkE5FXetGw_m2vBBYbwQ3hT4oIvUs6ORYFdt5Wiq1pKtHvntP26nPV2aeMKymiQPkw8Zl0RwZQpT0W8n7p3eFLQogOvoJdlxqCnPYJnnlNG6bW63gb8XuWpClmtkMInGspNaWIJcCwGup-Yq-zA36v5WyvUWa6Gyjz1YbQ5aasxgpW_iU8mJ9dZKXskHSqZrNJubK6o3Lm8Lw98th7eNHnBLsNVwP769yEaukV9PlAqIfRtXWyn04iwVAdgZBAKn0YNDbrAhJkZityUyk1Z6WzAjQY8W-rFTnQAgFWgOJs60OgyUZC7btwh715h_e58mnBLwly00WIJ3s0bd=w1168-h658-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vmpczk3xKNnYLttjh4etEvytvJBYFMiAye5-zf7MU9lqHVRGpPA6K5LCcJCU7rjVE8Y0nLvRkzhS9wPmUrh7eqCvs0uMJApe-vq_8DYoHNxyOwbAKcKuNkvHmyOl-4MIW3MBptkeOGtpQ2vML5S8U7uc9Eetayc5rfT18FQmwEtWfCCVY1cGtseOxomPKutqVhPd4AwNMYgDbRXDx2M1lI02De-37EMc40WAQNgE5h4SGZLrULST6ryDnLwkW6UCl0bxOdawwyPc2NGFHA_SXQbqVmMIZJqUviW7tAD_1fG0Go8nhDVx7M7IOAhKPYqr1PRuz-Sy_UEnCTCLJoFi8gnilSqVTtjxnjfa0rn1nKcFjlUK18h3vd0m99aNxiZ_nQSvxxAq5za-oeBzySMO_Tw_UM7lZFnkTNJ-FWCQrHp1lnmRoVqHQ-svWI2oxtVOUhXLye6n0z6i1o9FbvjBconwPli1h5_OIxWr8GqC8sYBFjTRasgV7vHPdo2yrEFGDmeNT1pPIMFqkEFdXN8tCWIXRrnIz1ya_XyZkkRo5MF2zc9UfnqnIoBVVz-uhTvKVo0t44o6KsgvaheA-G39AwdH4XvFrJTD8v-t5ZKE1BiOSFjDiaME=w1168-h658-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lRSmh73ANKtjhA0r4eTbjXxSxKtwQJCkqmnCpYZB5-SKp66KH8GdqY3BfLsNXUf3fH_TfbYFPshwWyKABPDOMuwN-YSe9-6jxrc3JobVW2JX6TN2Mkp9koo4ZsIPK2XDBCaeeEGphQCCzj7i9xNUancccTk0dkzQ3SY1CkUA5ll8TAM4XaJDmGlr36hmnpUxfHVhLDF4Ha4lRcPkhihZNFJMJTSEUNqQBEx3nzbRQA56Z5iG4lFlsDQzYzankrlJGKzYqGUk4w7ZrzN2nqWQBZ8SfO2WVIOjgqz5KOFidjToMWoTcHVwcPsVuhwvqZOk5nFI5oheyMpEweMBQm6k_X3ud0_0jCallMrvCel6AbrR7joSL7n8f9MI03TbLxlyWyc8nFU7dYMF_2PxvN_OldG5pQJkRviYTn3f7s-CEw3sbM22LCGzWsi_aRKJ6evyukpmWeWCP2xjLDoul127rc3jhl5WVbvIjpG9sarlUIRRUOKhyDpMUrT6Cn5EFhSMHDBdxywmkl_E7AdlKDhW5YrpVK3r7_r1tVNCQnHFapokQLZReSvrU4DP-f4ePNHif5bTwbqATC4AWZK3Q7BkT6emWGqHl6uWAp8oKA8-E3C4DuaaYX7V=w1168-h658-no

[Freggle]

Image

That's beautiful. How [well] does it play?

Edit:

Main:
4 Rushing River
4 Mana Breach
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Propaganda
4 Land Equilibrium
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
4 Black Vise
4 Howling Mine
3 Winter Orb

2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
6 Island
4 Saprazzan Skerry

Sideboard:
3 Chill
3 Arcane Laboratory
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Tormod's Crypt

[Bart]

As a long-time viewer of The Source, this deck made me write my first post. I really love this type of prison and as soon as Black Vise became unbanned I wanted to try it in this shell. And to be honest, I love to play with obscure cards overall, even if it means losing more games than usual.

Unfortunately, results of Blue Vise are mostly average and sometimes even bad, but when the lock works and the kill happens it feels veeery satisfying :) However, I still believe in this deck, love to play with it (when I am not playing my other decks) and I want to fine-tune it as good as possible.

Tried out different cards over the last couple of months but this is the version I'm using right now:

Blue (23)
4 Mana Breach
4 Overburden
4 Boomerang
3 Seal of Removal
2 Whelming Wave
2 Echoing Truth
4 Day's Undoing

Red / Multicolor (5)
1 Runeflare Trap
4 Fevered Visions

Artifacts (14)
4 Black Vise
4 Howling Mine
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
4 Chrome Mox

Lands (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
4 Arcane Laboratory
1 Seal of Removal
1 Rushing River
3 Force of Will
3 Chill
2 Wipe Away
1 Whelming Wave

Some notifications:

Chrome Mox / Ancient Tomb
These cards are a neccesity. They provide the speed the deck needs to concur with the speed that is Legacy. Even with these Stompy-type cards the decks sometimes falls behind. I tried out City of Traitors before but the deck tries to win the long game so I replaced them with the more consistent but dangerous Tombs. Chrome Moxes are also great with Mana Breach, letting me still cast cards under the lock without lands (or with only one land) under my control.

Day's Undoing
This card is Doing great business. It blends in perfectly and makes me come back out of desperate situations, also drawing to the Magic number 7 when my opponent was too fast for me in the early game, triggering Black Vise again, etcetera. Gave this the notch over Vision Skeins and upped it to 4 as Legacy is just soo fast, we really need the 'reset button'.

Fevered Visions
A nice little gem and underrated IMO. I am fully aware it doesn't trigger after I Undo the Day with Day's Undoing, but even with this nonbo I feel like the deck needs additional sources of damage. The Visions also fuels both players hands acting as "better" Howling Mines 5 - 8, but maybe I am cutting the number to 3 beacuse it is just slower.

Howling Mine
Don't want to cut it from the list, even with Fevered Visions in it. In the long game it draws my opponent soo many cards and I need to have to trigger the Visions and Vises. It is also cast very fast and easily with Ancient Tomb, not setting me back too much most of the time. In addition, it happened a few times I kept an average opener with a Tomb and first turn Mine, drawing me into more mana and keycards very fast, winning the game because of it.

Ebony Owl Netsuke
This is the card I am about to cut from my list. In theory, it will damage my opponent for 4 after I Tomb or Mox it out first turn or after I Day's Undoing, but in practice, the first turn Owl on the play rarely showed up, it does nothing first turn (when on the play) after my opponent mulliganed and it rarely does anything most of the time. Triggering in the upkeep can easily be prevented if my opponent just casts ONE instant. In short, it just does nothing most of the time and sometimes only acts as a finisher, so this is simply not good enough for Legacy when all cards should have "some" impact during a game. It is a shame though..

Black Vise
One of my alltime favourite cards and the reason to play the deck. Yess, Black Vise turned out to be not that broken, but with this deck I won games without a first turn Vise. However, I think only 4 Vises is not enough to win matches. I can be hated out by Chalice of the Void on 1 and for this reason alone we should run more sources of damage. I tried out Iron Maiden before and right now I'm thinking of relacing the 2 Ebony Owls with 2 Iron Maiden, acting as good (but slower) Black Vise # 5 and 6, hopefully doing more damage in the long run.

Seal of Removal
This card proved key in most matches. It curves the deck out having more things to do first turn, is great against reanimator and especially against Emrakul.

Echoing Truth
This is the card I was unsure about, but proved well in testing thusfar. It does not bounce lands but I feel most of the times I need to bounce problem permanents instead of lands and the Truth is the best option IMO. Also, having some extra instants in the deck synergizes well with Day's Undoing, leaving 2 mana open after the Undoing-ended-turn to bounce stuff in their upkeep. This is why I stepped away from the slow, slow Eye of Nowhere.

Runeflare Trap
This is probably too cute but I wanted to try it as a finisher. Even with all the draw the deck provides, it still didn't show up thusfar.. so no comments on the result of using it yet. Maybe I should run more copies but the card feels very situational so I doubt it.

Arcane Laboratory
It just feels wrong not using the full playset in the sideboard. It is an absolute neccesity against any form of combo, being it Elves or Storm. Both decks need to handle this card or they can't win and I feel not drawing it against these decks we just lose. They have all the mana in the world, they just don't care about our bounce spells and the are lightning fast. Second turn Ancient Tomb -> Lab is our only rescue. This is the most important SB card of my list.


Cards I am (probably) going to try out:

Trinisphere
Maybe this is the card I am looking for, still feels I need more lockdown cards sometimes, stopping problem cards like Batterskull and the like. With Trinisphere out it will slow down a player already struggling with the bounce my enchantments provide, however, all my own cheaper spells will cost 3 as well, needing to alter my whole list.

Winter Orb
Same as above, but without me having to alter my whole deck. I am just affraid the card won't do enough and it will help my opponent more than it hinders him, returning the tapped lands with a Mana Breach out..

Tangle Wire
Another lock card, but one that's only really good early in the game, stopping my opponent from playing spells there. The downside of running all these artifacts (and the reason I didn't test yet) is that chances increase Chrome Mox will not be able to produce fast mana anymore if there are too many noncolored cards in the deck.


I was delighted to read (or see, in this matter) the list Nedleeds posted. This is a very unique approach, running Land Equilibrium, Jace and Saprazzan Skerry to power them out early, next to our familiar Mana Breach. Mox Diamond instead of Chrome Mox, upping the land count and adding Wasteland, City of Traitors, aiming for a more Stax-prison approach, I like it. However, I doubt using only 4 kill conditions in Black Vise will be enough. Also, Rushing River is kind of risky in a world of Force of Will and Spell Pierce, losing all the lands (hence I only run one from my side), but I like how the 2 Crucible are there to cover up the losses, next to all the other lands that are eager to come back online. Really want to know how it played out for him. Unfortunately, I don't own any Tabernacles myself...


Thanks for reading, don't hesitate to leave a comment!

Ciao,
Bart

*Edited for card-tags

[hotlikedimes]

After playing a really interesting prison deck by MTGO user Silviamang, I threw this guy together and have been testing it out.

2 Ancient Tomb
4 Forsaken City
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Stifle
4 Black Vise
2 Arcane Denial
2 Daze
3 Stasis
2 Unsubstantiate
2 Counterspell
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
2 Howling Mine
2 Winter Orb
3 Fevered Visions
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will


I threw this together after briefly looking at some of the lists here, and adding some of the cards that I wanted to do. The core of this list is Forsaken City + Stasis and then Black Vice, Fevered Visions, or Jace to close the game out.

My thoughts after a handful of games against random decks are as follows:

Ebony owl netsuke is very medium, it doesn't trigger a lot, most of the time I get a trigger it's due to a t1 tomb -> owl on the play and then it just sits there and does nothing the rest of the game.

Stifle is awesome, daze is less so. Daze is really only good first couple turns, and that's when I want to keep land drops to jam jace or visions. It's value goes up post winter orb or stasis as it "nets" a mana, but I'm not sure it's good enough to warrant it's spot. I think I only had it in initially because I have them on MTGO :)

Winter Orb: Initially very medium on it, getting higher and higher on it. It's good to drop after the opponent taps out for something especially off of ancient tomb, leaving all your colored mana up

I love the 2/2 split on counter spell and arcane denial, counter spell is great early and late, but arcane denial is just gas late. It feels great casting it and having my opponent take 2 more off black vise.

I didn't feel like buying tarns, so I'm not, but I would run 4 tarns and either a 1/1 Island/Mountain split or run 2 Islands and cut something for a basic Mountain.

I also would invest in misdirection, but it's also quite expensive on MTGO so I don't have those. I would run probably 2 instead of daze to deal with random hate and abrupt decay. Divert might be a suitable option.

No sideboard yet, but it's probably pretty standard, REB, Chill, back to basics etc..

[AlterEgo]

It feels great casting [Arcane Denial] and having my opponent take 2 more off black vise.

Not going to happen too often, unless you're playing inexperienced opponents, or they're very confident of winning, or opponents who don't read cards. Arcane Denial says, the opponent MAY draw and even UP TO two. That being said, I do really like them here.
For comparison a vaguely simliar deck (https://deckstats.net/decks/20099/635286-dead-draw-ffa/de) I ran at FNM lately (Free-for-all, no banlist, and another game plan).

[hotlikedimes]

Not going to happen too often, unless you're playing inexperienced opponents, or they're very confident of winning, or opponents who don't read cards. Arcane Denial says, the opponent MAY draw and even UP TO two. That being said, I do really like them here.
For comparison a vaguely simliar deck (https://deckstats.net/decks/20099/635286-dead-draw-ffa/de) I ran at FNM lately (Free-for-all, no banlist, and another game plan).

Either way, it's awesome because the drawback is now an advantage, and 'at worst' it's an insane counterspell! And depending on the game state the opponent might feel compelled to take an extra 2 damage to dig 2 cards deeper. With lock pieces out an no answer in hand it's better to take the extra 2 damage and draw 2 than to take a chance and try and hit off a natural draw.

[thanksnah]

I really like the strategy behind this deck -- I'm not sure it can ever be tier 1 or 2, but it's definitely a fun deck to pilot.

In my testing, I've preferred the red splash. I will post my list below in a moment, but first I have to talk about the spell that has been the all-star for me in many different games: Standstill. This little enchantment does everything you want it to, including filling your opponent's hand with cards when they manage to empty their hand. I really think going forward standstill needs to be a part of the deck.

In any case, here is the list I've been running:

LANDS:
8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain

ARTIFACTS:
2 Ebony Owl Netsuke
4 Black Vice

ENCHANTMENTS:
4 Overburden
4 Mana Breach
3 Standstill
3 Fevered Visions

INSTANTS:
4 Brainstorm
4 Boomerang
3 Force of Will
2 Vapor Snag

SORCERIES:
3 Ponder
2 Eye of Nowhere
2 Whelming Wave

SIDEBOARD:
2 Vapor Snag
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Propaganda
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

My game-win rate with this has been above 40%, which is of course not competitive but not worthless-garbage-pile-legacy-amulet-bloom either. I've found that against many of the top decks in legacy (delver, DnT, shardless, eldrazi) finding a whelming wave wins the game, but those games where cantrips fail to find it end poorly. The deck really shines against any creature strategy. Even a True-Name or two can be too little to make a difference once the engine gets rolling, and Whelming Wave has won me a few games against the recent BUG strategies when my life was at 5 or less.

That said, any deck that runs few or no creatures is basically going to turn this deck inside-out. I honestly believe it is impossible to beat Lands with any version of this deck. The combination of Loam, Exploration, and Molten Vortex is brutal, and many's the time I saw my own vanity reflected back at me in a black vice while my opponent was tapping four mox diamonds to deal a cool 8 damage to my sullen face.

For this reason the 2 Vapor Snag and 2 Propaganda in the sideboard are up in the air right now. They certainly help against creature-heavy decks (especially elves) but it can be difficult to have enough cards to board in against creature-light decks. Cards I'm considering now include Echoing Truth, additional Needles or Surgicals, Elixir of Immortality (trying to avoid decking myself, which a storm opponent managed to do to me post-board), Cyclonic Rift (not really), and Rushing River.

Any help or feedback would be awesome! And thanks to everyone who has been working on the deck -- like I said, I have been really enjoying piloting the deck.

[Freggle]

Tested out a red splash for the first time tonight, and it does seem to improve the overall deck.

List certainly not tuned but here is what I played due to my card availability.

4 Black Vise
4 Boomerang
4 Fevered Visions
4 Propaganda
4 Mana Breach
2 Rushing river
4 Howling Mine
2 Molten Vortex
1 Sphere of Resistance
4 Seal of Removal
4 Eye of Nowhere

2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
13 Island

Notes: I personally believe that Molten Vortex should be in all red splash versions. That card did a lot of work in the games where it resolved. It sped up the games for the last few points of reach, and killed pesky creatures / planeswalkers that got in my way. ...finally something to do with all this land locked in the hand.

Also note, activations of Molten Lava does not trigger Mana Breach and becomes a source of substantial advantage.

[MasterArtificer]

Hi. I've been following this thread for a while now and I was wondering if Trade Routes might have a place in the deck as a way to get rid of lands that get stuck in hand in and filter through cards. I was also thinking Sensei's Divining Top would be another powerful method of filtering that doesn't constantly return lands to our hands. Adding Counterbalance comes to mind as well, but I'm not sure if that would be too many slots.

[ntropy]

I've been watching this thread, but adding Molten Vortex caught my attention! I think I may have to try this out....