Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events [Archive]

HammerAndSickled

01-11-2016, 09:16 PM

So without jumping to conclusions here, I'll just state the facts. Today, our local store apparently received phone and email contact from a Wizards Play Network representative regarding the regular full proxy Legacy events we run every Tuesday. To my knowledge, these events have been going for years and were never sanctioned through Wizards Event Reporter. The correspondence stated that regardless of whether an event is sanctioned, "Magic events... can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." This essentially means that all stores with WPN sanctioning (any store that runs an FNM) can be threatened with having that sanctioning revoked by running any events allowing proxies in their store.

Extrapolating here, so brace yourself for a bit of doomsaying. I think this has dire repercussions for Legacy and in particular Vintage. How many of you have local Legacy proxy events, or were perhaps even ushered into the format by these sorts of casual nonsanctioned tournaments? Vintage players, when was the last time besides Vintage champs you played sanctioned vintage? I think the health of the format declines significantly if there is no "soft" way to get into the format without directly spending thousands upfront. Standard is relatively easy to get into and you can succeed with budget options, Modern has a variety of successful budget decks as well that very easily build up into tier decks once you acquire staples, but Legacy has no alternative for duals, wastes, forces, and even worse you can have 90% of the cards in a deck and still owe a thousand or more on your manabase. Many people at these local events had Deathblade or Delver minus only the duals, or Death and Taxes minus Waste/Port/Karakas, they were not "budget players, they were Legacy players who hadn't acquired the priciest parts of their decks.

For those who are curious, the original thread on facebook is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/445059535582036/permalink/962954593792525/
I don't know if that link works if you're not a Facebook group member but it might let you see the initial post.

Dice_Box

01-11-2016, 09:30 PM

Just a reminder that we have a thread on card prices. Talk of card prices will be removed.

I don't like this myself. Brisbane has a vibrant Legacy and Vintage scene, we can run sanctioned events in both formats in this small city but Vintage is commonly played with Proxy open to all. It is also run by the community not a store, we just use the space in a store to play. We can move it elsewhere, but that's a pain we don't want or need.

This is not something I would be happy to see take off. Older formats are fun and the prices right now are stable. Have a look at Modern and it's cost fluctuations and then Legacy. Legacy is much smarter to get into and it helps to be able to slowly build your deck over time.

That said, if I hire space in a store out for a games night and run a Vintage event myself, with the store only accepting money for the space and time used, what can Wizards do then? All the store did was hire out space, I ran the event for a format I enjoy.

sjmcc13

01-11-2016, 09:52 PM

EDH players need all those reserved list staples that are being "hoarded" by us Legacy players after all....

I think this is a bad policy, and could affect more then just Legacy negatively, as this means people can not hold proxy practice events for any big prize events coming to their area that the players might still be building/deciding on their decks for. Modern is starting to each the point that it is beyond many players budgets to build, or where they can not afford to build a deck and not enjoy playing it . Only 1 deck in last weekends SCG top 8 was under $1000 to build (and another 4 in the next 8), and the average was a like $1386 for the top 8 ($1327 when expanded to the top 16) according to mtggoldfish.

Wizards is probably afraid of proxy events spreading to other formats and negatively affecting sales...

thecrav

01-11-2016, 09:54 PM

The correspondence stated that regardless of whether an event is sanctioned, "Magic events... can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." This essentially means that all stores with WPN sanctioning (any store that runs an FNM) can be threatened with having that sanctioning revoked by running any events allowing proxies in their store.https://www.facebook.com/groups/445059535582036/permalink/962954593792525/
I don't know if that link works if you're not a Facebook group member but it might let you see the initial post.

In case the link dies:

http://i.imgur.com/lbqZYeB.png

The post states that the ban is more thorough than you've stated.

According to Wizards Play Network policy, *no* proxies are allowed at WPN-sanctioned venues, regardless of whether the event is sanctioned or not.

That's... actually pretty insane. That's not just no proxy events. That's no proxy play testing. That's no proxy gold fishing. That's telling game stores that if you see someone with a magic card with sharpie on the back, they need to ask the player to leave or their ability to host DCI events and receive WotC product will be removed.

Whether the correspondence (they said it was a phone call) actually said no proxies vs no proxy events is something only WotC and the store owner will know.

I haven't seen the WPN agreement but based on some of the other recent drama in the Magic world, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this no proxy rule isn't included. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?

To be quite honest, I'm surprised after some recent events that someone hasn't started an independent sanctioning group. Actually... not all that surprised. So many Magic players hate the status quo but are too lazy to correct it.

WotC's approval is only required for PlanesWalkerPoints, GPTs, PPTQs, buying product at wholesale, and being listed on WotC's site. Am I missing any other direct benefits to being a WPN store?

kirkusjones

01-11-2016, 10:06 PM

There are going to be some seriously depressed EDH players at my LGS. I guess it's a good thing the RC has discussed "fixing" off-colored fetches to only allow them in decks corresponding to their colors.

Lord_Mcdonalds

01-11-2016, 10:08 PM

Wizards is probably afraid of proxy events spreading to other formats and negatively affecting sales...

I doubt this is the case, no skin off their bones if someone proxies a bunch of underground seas as they don't print them, and proxy standard tournaments are unheard of (even if this standard is laughably expensive).

I'm just going to assume that they are a bunch of hateful misers that despise joy and actively loathe the fans of its game and secretly are plotting our deaths.

TsumiBand

01-11-2016, 10:16 PM

How do you even begin to enforce this?

I need to read more on this; there's such a signal-to-noise problem whenever Wizards does anything anymore. They're cracking down on meta reporting, allegedly upset over card leaks, they've been irked for years that things like MWS and Cockatrice exist, and now - now your LGS can lose its sanctioning privileges if ANY event can be found to entertain proxies. Proxies which, for all anyone knows, are just precursors to a sale.

Like I said, I need to read more, but this is just flatly discouraging and feels like an overreaction to a practice that they can never fully control or moderate anyway.

thecrav

01-11-2016, 10:20 PM

rufus

01-11-2016, 10:22 PM

Last time I went to a prerelease, they had basics proxied for each other. Of course that was a while ago.

HammerAndSickled

01-11-2016, 10:30 PM

This thread has been cross posted to reddit (thanks Barook, I refuse to make a reddit account! Haha) and ongoing discussion taking place on the facebook group as well. I'm Brian Marx on there for anyone who didn't know me and wants to follow the discussion.

I got into legacy through proxy events and the welcoming and generous atmosphere of a small local community in Maryland. I know for a fact I would have never become an active member of this community without that opportunity, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. A lot of the legacy players and content producers we know and love were born in these types of environments, and I fear that this is a real loss to the community.

thecrav

01-11-2016, 10:31 PM

Last time I went to a prerelease, they had basics proxied for each other. Of course that was a while ago.

Sadly, that's not uncommon. Prerelease is the largest limited event most stores run and WotC no longer provides free packs of basics.

Dice_Box

01-11-2016, 10:35 PM

Every thread complaining about WotC gets locked
I am interested in the developments of this situation and would like not to have this thread locked. I will keep an eye on it if things get out of hand.

kirkusjones

01-11-2016, 10:48 PM

Dice_Box

01-11-2016, 10:54 PM

The way I read that email (Now I can see it.) I feel like store run events will be cracked down on but if you ran an event in the store Wizards has little to no recorse. At the same time they really hold all the cards in this situation since they can cut off a store with (as far as I know) little the store can do to remedy the situation.

barcode

01-11-2016, 10:56 PM

This entire thread can be closed with the following: TALK TO YOUR WPN REP AND DON'T BELIEVE SHIT YOU READ ON FACEBOOK.

Barook

01-11-2016, 10:59 PM

This thread has been cross posted to reddit (thanks Barook, I refuse to make a reddit account! Haha) and ongoing discussion taking place on the facebook group as well.
I mainly did it because that's the best chance of an official response, although slim.

I wonder about the timing. Why now?

My guess is that they failed to meet expectations in Q4 (thanks to BFZ being terrible), like the missed it in Q2 and Q3. Now they're clutching at every straw they get.

Sadly, we won't know before February 8th when the Hasbro earnings are announced.

Edit: A no-proxy policy is also going to play into the hands of the Chinese counterfeiters. I just don't see any winners in this scenario.

thecrav

01-11-2016, 11:14 PM

The way I read that email (Now I can see it.)

If you've seen the actual email, can you please post it? The last several WotCDramas have all suffered from a distinct lack of information on the part of the players.

HammerAndSickled

01-11-2016, 11:15 PM

I hate to speculate about this, but the situation in our particular store might've been exposed by the fact that we were streaming Legacy Tuesdays on twitch, and some proxies might've shown up or been discussed on the stream. Regardless, the fact that we were playing unsanctioned Magic should be enough to decouple ourselves from the Wizards brand. Many people have streamed Cockatrice before despite it being infringement of MTGO, people stream themselves playing illegitimate mods of League/DotA/CS.

HammerAndSickled

01-11-2016, 11:28 PM

If you've seen the actual email, can you please post it? The last several WotCDramas have all suffered from a distinct lack of information on the part of the players.
From the original source, our LGS: "This is the relevant text from the follow-up email they sent me:

Hello Edward,

Thank you for taking the time to speak with me. As we discussed we received information concerning some questionable or undesirable activity that occurred at your store. We understand many of these issues stem from misconceptions or miscommunications and I have summarized what we discussed below.

• Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards.
• Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear.
• Counterfeit cards are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use."

Dice_Box

01-11-2016, 11:35 PM

So it sounds like the original FaceBook post exaggerated and/or used unclear language. WotC simply pointed out that you can't have proxies in sanctioned events which everyone already knew.
No. It was clear on comment and effect.

Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards.

HammerAndSickled

01-11-2016, 11:37 PM

So it sounds like the original FaceBook post exaggerated and/or used unclear language. WotC simply pointed out that you can't have proxies in sanctioned events which everyone already knew.
Reading comprehension, man. "Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards." And then goes on to spell out that they consider neither proxies nor counterfeit cards to be genuine.

thecrav

01-11-2016, 11:40 PM

No. It was clear on comment and effect.

Yep. Read it wrong. Pissed off and going to fast lol.

The current iteration of the WPN Event Organizer Agreement specifically states that "events" are things that use the Wizards Reporter to report to WotC. I'm no lawyer but it seems to be that by definition, an unsanctioned "event" is not an "event" as described by the agreement and therefore the agreement doesn't apply to it.

http://i.imgur.com/InXZpJG.png

Expect to see that updated without comment later this week.

My question to WotC: Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing? Why are stores getting messages about the WPNEOA that explicitly contradict it?

Barook

01-12-2016, 12:36 AM

• Counterfeit cards are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use."
So let me get this straight:

Assuming somebody hosts a proxy tournament in a non-WPN-location, their countermeasure would be suing your ass? Because it sounds like that.

Mr.C

01-12-2016, 01:59 AM

It must be because they're revoking the reserved list, and reprinting duals and stuff. Right? Because if not, they can suck it.

apple713

01-12-2016, 02:06 AM

get ready for your new favorite card game, Magic, The Secret Gathering

What this tells me is that wizards is considering dropping support for any and all legacy / vintage events. Their efforts to take drastic measures as such would indicate that they want players to play more modern / standard because thats the only way they make money. Wizards makes 0 dollars off of a format they cannot reprint cards for. If they effectively Kill vintage and legacy they have really just simplified the business model for themselves. They have less to worry about when designing a set and its just more streamlined for them.

I don't like it but from a business standpoint it makes sense. I don't have numbers and I'm sure ppl are gonna be like "prove it" but the amount of total players that play ALL formats is probably very small compared to the number of players that play standard or modern. SO, even if they cannibalize some of their business it will really have an insignificant effect on them. Additionally, if they piss off the legacy / vintage community enough we are likely to sell out and free up cards for EDH players.

So let me get this straight:

Assuming somebody hosts a proxy tournament in a non-WPN-location, their countermeasure would be suing your ass? Because it sounds like that.

They (WOTC) would have a "course of action" which is suing for damages or an injunction (legal action ordering them to stop) but the likely hood of it actually going anywhere would be slim to none. I would image that many of the individuals that are creating copies / counterfeit cards are what the legal community calls "judgement proof." The term judgment proof is most commonly used in tort and contract law contexts to refer to defendants or potential defendants who are financially insolvent. Even if a plaintiff were to secure a legal judgment against an insolvent defendant, the defendant's lack of funds would make the satisfaction of that judgment difficult, if not impossible, to secure. <-wiki because i suck at explaining.

thecrav

01-12-2016, 02:09 AM

It must be because they're revoking the reserved list, and reprinting duals and stuff. Right? Because if not, they can suck it.

That's what really gets me. No proxies in standard and modern? Okay, I get that. For the cards on the reserved list, no matter how much money I throw at WotC*, they refuse to sell me the product.

*I suppose I could buy a controlling share of Hasbro? Their market cap is only 8.479 billion!

I've spent the last hour so reading and, as a non-attorney, attempting to untangle the legalese on the WotC website. Without getting into what it says, I've learned two things:

1. As best I can tell, the closest any official WotC-produced document comes explicitly or implicitly disallowing non-sanctioned proxy events is the extremely vague "Organizers may not engage in any other activities that Wizards deems inappropriate"

2. WotC's website is worse than I thought. Reading the WPN agreement linked me to all of the following:
* A page with over 100 other documents on it, including one not in English
* A Word document
* A redirect to their old website which, based on the links on the page, hasn't been updated since early 2014.

Once I've cooled down tomorrow, if WotC hasn't publicly clarified this, I'll post my analysis.

It really boils down to this: If WotC wants to, they can remove a store from the WPN and from being able to acquire sealed product at wholesale. Not being able to acquire sealed product is a death knell for a small store. Therefore, regardless of what the agreement say, the stores will do what WotC wants.

Each time I get more riled about this, I'm calmed by something that nedleeds, of all people, said when discussing MTGO. Paraphrased a bit more eloquently than he put it: I know the cards. I know the rules. No matter what WotC does, they can't take Magic away from me.

QBChaz

01-12-2016, 04:39 AM

In 2014, the store I regularly play Legacy at tried to host quarterly 10-proxy Vintage tournaments, unsanctioned of course. We managed two of these tournaments before the WPN cracked down on them and that was the end of the Vintage scene. The events were organised by community members but held in a store location and advertised on that store's website. The solution was going to be to hold the tournaments in a non-WPN location but those never got off the ground as far as I know. It was a shame because I had enjoyed building decks for the format and managed to play both Ravager Affinity (proxied Workshops and Moxen) and UR Cruise Delver (proxied Moxen and embarrassingly proxied Ingot Chewers).

I think they got shut down so quickly because the store has the largest web presence in the UK and a content site which posted tournament reports and decklists. I think the fact that it is so well known here meant that WPN were right on top of it. I suspect this has been policy for a little while but only gets enforced when it is brought to the attention of the WPN reps.

Julian23

01-12-2016, 05:33 AM

For the record: I remember that in 2013, we were already asked not to bring any kind of proxy to one of our LGSs.

In general I can see why WotC would not want people to host proxy tournaments. I'm usually quite critical of them, but I do realize that in a way that's similar to holding a video game tournament with cracked copies of the game. That doesn't mean I'm highly critical for putting us into this whole situation in the first place, but this thread is not the place to discuss the reserved list and such.

But is it also true they will disallow playtesting with proxies at stores? If so, that's pretty bad. Testing with proxies has always been an integral part to the competitive scene and you will find all the big teams like CFB etc. post their funniest looking proxies on social media. They're usually not doing that in shops, but the point is that it is and has been part of Magic culture on pretty much all levels.

monovfox

01-12-2016, 05:44 AM

Every thread complaining about WotC gets locked but I'll go ahead and say it

WotC is getting more and more anti-player and it seems to me that many of the problems that WotC itself has the power to fix. But instead of fixing them, they're punishing people for addressing the problem on their own.

it seems more built to cater to companies like star city and channel fireball. it's a shame to see such a good community getting killed by money mongering of 2nd hand sales company's interests rather than the interests of the players.

Barook

01-12-2016, 06:16 AM

MGB

01-12-2016, 06:58 AM

This just makes me wonder even more why Wizards can't crack down MWS, Cockatrice, XMage and the likes?

I mean they've tried in the past by addressing specific people/servers, but that hasn't stunted said programs in the slightest.

In the case of stores that depend on Wizards to provide them sealed product at wholesale prices - there is a strong incentive for those stores to fall in line ASAP with what Wizards tells them to do because their livelihood depends on perfect obsequience to the Mothership.

In the case of XMage and Cockatrice, Wizards holds very little sway over them, because Wizards' only recourse would be legal action, and these programs sidestep any copyright infringement by not providing copyrighted data directly in the software package.

HammerAndSickled

01-12-2016, 08:38 AM

It's important for everyone to note that Wizards is succeeding at confusing some people with their corporate doublespeak centering around the word "counterfeit" and its meaning in regular English compared to its meaning specifically in Magic.
According to Wizards:
A proxy is a card issued by a judge to replace your Volcanic after it has been damaged in a sanctioned event,
A counterfeit is anything other than a tournament-Legal Volc being played as a Volc.

In normal English, however:
A proxy is a substitute, using one card to represent another ambiguously without convincing anyone it's the genuine article,
A counterfeit is one card intentionally made as a fake for the purposes of deceiving other players, tournament officials, and people looking to buy genuine Magic cards.

Let me unequivocally state that NO ONE at our proxy events ever used a counterfeit card, even under the loosest reasonable definition of the word, which might include things like diecut Collector's Edition or convincing alters. Every proxy used for the events was either Sharpie on the back of an actual Magic card or a printer-paper copy slipped in a sleeve, neither of which can be considered a counterfeit in any way, shape, or form. Wizards is intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue here by making their own definitions for words which exist in the common language.

Ace/Homebrew

01-12-2016, 08:52 AM

I realize fringe format is fringe, but don't most 93/94 events allow Collector's Edition as playable cards?

alastair

01-12-2016, 08:53 AM

I’ve posted about this before in the forum, specific to the UK, and it appears pretty consistent across all store owners who I’ve spoken to. The tale is of............ within a WPN store, the use of fake cards is not permitted (proxy’s being those issued by a judge at an event). WoTC control which stores have WPN status, and WPN has certain rules (this presumably being one of them), and store obviously want to keep WPN status.

We have been unable to run proxy/fake events (10 cards… to whole deck) for some time now. Several groups have moved out of stores (to the detriment of the store), and in other areas players have fallen away from eternal formats / declined to buy-in to what is now an all-in-one deal to acquire a full deck (to the detriment of the wider eternal community).

It’s a tough one. I don’t like what fakes / proxy’s do to the game (just look at SCG Vintage), but its WoTC policy to do as they wish, although it is a huge obstacle to developing a Vintage scene. (Legacy is less of a problem, but pretty detrimental to the new players).

Barook

01-12-2016, 09:17 AM

Blastoderm

01-12-2016, 11:07 AM

Rofl. Vintage just died. Once again WotC is catering to the kiddies who play Standard.

Edit: I'm pretty sure this won't change anything. How is wizards going to find out about unsanctioned events?

Richard Cheese

01-12-2016, 11:23 AM

From a bean counter's point of view it makes sense. If you're charging entry for a tournament that allows fake cards, you're making money off their IP without necessarily funneling any of it back to WotC or their resellers. Of course this doesn't make a ton of sense when you consider most proxy events allow a limited number, and that WotC isn't directly making much off Legacy and Vintage anyway.

What they should really do is have an actual proxy policy that limits the number you can use in an event, what formats, REL, etc. Then take it a step further and allow stores to sanction these limited proxy events. You extend the olive branch to players and stores, and hopefully end up driving more sales by bringing new folks into these formats.

01-12-2016, 11:27 AM

Rofl. Vintage just died. Once again WotC is catering to the kiddies who play Standard.

Edit: I'm pretty sure this won't change anything. How is wizards going to find out about unsanctioned events?

It's not going to change a thing, unless you were blatantly streaming it on Twitch constantly. At that point, you make it clear that Wizards would know about it and so their legal team is going to err on the side of caution since allowing it with knowledge could constitute something verging on copyright abandonment.

Mr.C

01-12-2016, 11:58 AM

HammerAndSickled

01-12-2016, 12:25 PM

It's not going to change a thing, unless you were blatantly streaming it on Twitch constantly. At that point, you make it clear that Wizards would know about it and so their legal team is going to err on the side of caution since allowing it with knowledge could constitute something verging on copyright abandonment.
The issue is they have absolutely zero authority over nonsanctioned play or third-party sites like Twitch. No legal ability to tell people to cease playing or streaming Magic independently. But what they CAN do is strongarm stores into doing their bidding by threatening them with revoking their WPN status for allowing this. It's insidious.

iatee

01-12-2016, 12:40 PM

Wizards doesn't care about legacy. Wizards doesn't care about vintage. Proxy legacy tournaments and proxy vintage tournaments are about as much of an issue to Wizards as Proxy Yugioh tournaments.

What they do care about is people giving money to people who are making high quality proxies. Those people are also printing proxy Goyfs and proxy Snapcasters and proxy Standard cards. They have been getting better and better and in the longer term present a threat to the entire MTG business, not just the viability of Legacy and Vintage. At the same time, Wizards can't admit that there's a problem, as that itself could crash the market.

Putting some pressure here and there to scare people out of funding the high quality proxy market doesn't seem like the worst idea.

01-12-2016, 12:54 PM

The issue is they have absolutely zero authority over nonsanctioned play or third-party sites like Twitch. No legal ability to tell people to cease playing or streaming Magic independently. But what they CAN do is strongarm stores into doing their bidding by threatening them with revoking their WPN status for allowing this. It's insidious.

Well, yeah. This is why you really don't "poke the beast" so to speak. The North-East has been running proxy events for years and years with no problems, so why this now? Because it was being broadcast regularly on Twitch, which made it near impossible for Wizards to ignore.

If you are a WPN store, you can still do what you want, but if you are doing something that is going to displease Wizards it's probably best to not be broadcasting it.

phonics

01-12-2016, 01:32 PM

Well, yeah. This is why you really don't "poke the beast" so to speak. The North-East has been running proxy events for years and years with no problems, so why this now? Because it was being broadcast regularly on Twitch, which made it near impossible for Wizards to ignore.

If you are a WPN store, you can still do what you want, but if you are doing something that is going to displease Wizards it's probably best to not be broadcasting it.

I highly doubt any kind of twitch streaming is the cause of this, MTG outside of large events just doesn't get enough viewers for it to be relevant, let alone people playing with proxied cards, which I haven't seen on stream.But it makes no sense for it to displease them, at the very absolute least, even if they proxy their entire decks, they are basically getting free advertisement for their game. Blackmailing stores because you want to dictate what people can or cannot do with their pieces of cardboard outside of a tournament environment is just silly.

nedleeds

01-12-2016, 01:40 PM

I'd be interested in the reaction of the Eternal Extravaganza organizers. They have had great success (100+ person) with proxy Vintage, held back to back with Sanctioned Legacy (~400 person). These events have been held at a venue that sold cards (Tales of Adventure). Seems like this sort of setup is bound to draw the ire of WPN. The June EE which has already been announced is being held offsite at a bombed out mall or something so maybe they can pass it off.

Richard Cheese

01-12-2016, 01:46 PM

Rofl. Vintage just died. Once again WotC is catering to the kiddies who play Standard.

Edit: I'm pretty sure this won't change anything. How is wizards going to find out about unsanctioned events?

How is this even remotely beneficial for Standard players?

My guess is that enforcement will be handled in the same way it is for proxies in sanctioned events. Anyone can report a store for infractions, and the penalties for breaking the rules are harsh enough that places won't risk it.

Stevestamopz

01-12-2016, 02:30 PM

I was one of those kids that bought into Legacy much later than most. When I started playing Legacy, I just proxied the expensive cards and bought the cheap cards. At the time I figured there was no way I would be able to justify dropping 1-3k on a single legacy deck... Anyway lo and behold I turned out loving Legacy so much I bought my deck twice. Foiled out the deck, got Onslaught fetches to replace the KTK trash and got FBB duals. If I'd never had the opportunity to dip my toes in, I would never have gotten to the point where I am now.

On a wider point, the Melbourne Legacy scene was utter shit from about 2012 - October of last year. There would be an event every 2 months and it would be the same 6 cunts turning up each time. Now that's great and I consider those cunts my good friends, but it's not particuarly exciting or motivating is it? Then in October of last year, a new store opened that said it would be willing to have fortnightly legacy with proxies. This got us the players excited and it led to another store hosting fortnightly legacy every other week. The 1st store allows 75 proxies and the 2nd store allows 30. A huge amount in comparison to you Euros/Yanks but whatever that's not important. This led to us having weekly legacy, with NEW players coming in in droves. We had 22 players once. Twenty-fuckin-two players. Do you know how happy that made a lot of us, who'd spent many hours talking online and irl about the shitty state of our scene? Australia is fucking boring, there's fuck-all to do if you don't believe in juvenile-alcoholism and to hear that our favourite hobby/stress reliever could be under fire is just fucking bullshit. If we had no proxy legacy, there wouldn't be a fucking scene at all and the precedent this sets is going to fuck us over. Absolute fucking bullshit.

Ace/Homebrew

01-12-2016, 02:37 PM

Australia sounds like an awful place... But it's where I always try to start my base of operation in Risk.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/tomandalex/img/20100119_australia_shot450.jpg

Edit: Also,

Proxies, Australian for Legacy. :tongue:

Final Edit:

That's not a crab...

That's a crab!
http://glasses.withinmyworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/hedroncrab_proxy.jpg

Bed Decks Palyer

01-12-2016, 04:17 PM

DLifshitz

01-12-2016, 04:38 PM

What they do care about is people giving money to people who are making high quality proxies. Those people are also printing proxy Goyfs and proxy Snapcasters and proxy Standard cards. They have been getting better and better and in the longer term present a threat to the entire MTG business, not just the viability of Legacy and Vintage. At the same time, Wizards can't admit that there's a problem, as that itself could crash the market.

Putting some pressure here and there to scare people out of funding the high quality proxy market doesn't seem like the worst idea.

I believe you misunderstand. They are not going after the people who are selling high quality counterfeit cards on the Internet and announcing it loud and proud. They're not trying to make it harder for people to play counterfeits in sanctioned tournaments. And, of course, they're not preventing shady ebay sellers from trying to pass off fake cards as genuine. Nor are they addressing the root cause of the problem: the fact that cards are very expensive while being cheap and relatively easy to counterfeit.

What they're doing right now is prohibiting unsanctioned tournaments in which people play some proxies, which are not fake cards. They're typically basic lands with handwriting on them. This is almost always a completely different phenomenon from counterfeiting, and it doesn't hurt us players. It doesn't even really hurt wizards, because after some testing with proxies, those people will still need to buy the real, genuine cards in order to be able to play in sanctioned tournaments.

But yay for disproportionate response, right?

iatee

01-12-2016, 04:42 PM

A store in my metropolitan area was going to start doing proxy Vintage. My friend bought high quality proxies online to use at that tournament.

Why wouldn't he? They were cheap, arrived quickly and were a lot more elegant than drawing on an Island.

There is not that much Wizards can do about this other than intimidation.

Dark Ritual

01-12-2016, 04:50 PM

Seems like too much work to play a fucking card game. Looks like Wizards really doesn't want Legacy and Vintage to exist. I guess they made that clear in March 2010, but still, it's infuriating.

We have people begging to give them money for cardboard, and they respond by continuously screwing us over. Must be nice to not need money.

Exactly. If their bean counters were twice as smart they would have already had the RL abolished, underground sea, mishra's workshop, and bazaar of baghdad would have been expeditions, and they would somehow release some super ultra rare foil power 9 into the market. But nope let's not do that, let's make this bastard child of a format called modern that sounds sweet at first but then every card people want to play with gets banhammered out of existence. Oh and in this format we'll make some specific products for it that are super limited so that we don't maximize profits off this format in multiple ways because modern masters could be drafted too/the format WotC loves the most I would imagine as it moves the most product for them.

This new move from them regarding proxies? Huge dick move to vintage players. They are basically saying "Nice black lotus you have there. It's a shame there are virtually no tournaments you can use it in. Might I suggest magic online/the worst product in the history of products?"

Agree with that EDH theory too. Get legacy and vintage players to cash out so EDH players can scoop up them duals for their pathetic xira arien EDH deck or what have you that isn't close to good, but is quite enjoyable for that person for whatever reason. Despite the fact that EDH is the dumbest format in all of magic where crap like primeval titan is banned but sol ring isn't and the format is pure politics and a bunch of people who hate to see someone else combo off/win first other than themselves.

the Thin White Duke

01-12-2016, 05:28 PM

Barook

01-12-2016, 05:43 PM

The "Get Eternal players sell out to EDH players"-theory is too tinfoil hat - even more me. If they really cared more about EDH players, they would support it better than with just one product each year and oversized fatties each set.

It's been my thought for some time that Wizards should license proxies. They should just charge companies for the use of card names and text. This avoids Reserve List BS, makes Hazzbro$$, and gets "cards" in the hands of players. Starcity prints tokens, it would be easy for them to pay for the rights to print proxies (with art/borders that bear no passing resemblance to real cards). Of course the big GS would probably charge a ridiculous amount for fake cards, China would counterfeit these proxies, and Wizards would find a way to loose$ in the process. And they don't care ( or have to care) about Eternal formats.
Don't know how relevant this thought is...
p. s. As someone who only plays EDH since two kids appeared, i like the conspiracy theories. I want moar EDH staples!
As nice as the licensing idea is, I doubt it would work under the current wording: Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy) That's pretty vague, but could easily interpreted that anybody is forbidden to officially reprint cards.

PirateKing

01-12-2016, 06:04 PM

apple713

01-12-2016, 06:24 PM

It would be an intetesting research project to find out how much of hasbro company stock you could buy if every legacy / vintage card was liquidated.

Maybe we could start a hostile takeover.

Technics

01-12-2016, 06:25 PM

We just need to hold our breath until Hasboro truly shits the bed then buy a controlling share on the cheap and then appoint ourselves to all the positions, then everything will be okay! Someone here just win that crazy Powerball jackpot, then all will be right!

This! We should start a source pool to win it with the expressed interest that all winnings will be used to undo the last 6 years of magic. Combo Winter is looking pretty appealing right about now.

Barook

01-12-2016, 06:27 PM

Wouldn't trying to buy Wizards from Hasbro be cheaper than trying to buy a controlling share from Hasbro?

Fatal

01-12-2016, 06:40 PM

Actually Legacy and Vintage player pool with this policy will be just off hands from WotC. Simple as that - if they can't support those formats with reprints, they forbid replacement, so someone will just invest some money to create alternative DCI where proxies will be allowed - who doesn't want 10,000+ player base which could pay some minor price for "new sanctioning".

With so many Chinese counterfeit available game will stop being trade-able and became normal card game where you can mix new cards from WotC and old cards which would be proxies. Market doesn't like empty space. Paper have its durability even sleeved and protected, original old cards have already absurd prices to be played - would you use Alpha Black Lotus for tournament when each shuffling mean -100 Euro (at least) on its value ? Those times will come sooner or later with other Legacy and Vintage cards, thanks to "great" printing policy. And so strict policy about proxies won't stop it.

sjmcc13

01-12-2016, 06:48 PM

As nice as the licensing idea is, I doubt it would work under the current wording: Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy) That's pretty vague, but could easily interpreted that anybody is forbidden to officially reprint cards. So they would need just to include some restriction on use that means they are not functionally identical.

One thing I could think of, though I know Wizards would never go for, would be to link your DCI # and your MTGO account. Then setup a mechanism where you can obtain usable proxies (in events that allow them, not necessarily all events) that are linked to your DCI # and an not be used by anyone else, with the restriction that the proxies have to be of cards in your MTGO account, and those cards then becomes locked on your account so you (at least) can not trade them.
set up properly, and refined it could even let Wizards make money of Legacy and Vintage, though there would be some issues that need to be resolved, likely needing to be 1 set at a time, or in specific sized blocks of cards, with no sets that are currently being physically sold/in standard being available for proxies.

AngryTroll

01-12-2016, 07:03 PM

the Thin White Duke

01-12-2016, 07:04 PM

Richard Cheese

01-12-2016, 07:11 PM

Our local shop called Wizards today to clarify this. They were told that no proxies were allowed anywhere in the shop, even for casual play, and the shop's status as a WPN member would be threatened by the use of proxies in the store. This has an excellent chance of killing Legacy at our shop, and a reasonable chance of killing Modern as well.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Why? Why should I beg some company to stop making increasingly stupid decisions? I'm just going to play less Magic and more board games and look into other hobbies that will let me meet some new people. The core of the game is still fun, but it's just not worth getting worked up over.

thecrav

01-12-2016, 07:16 PM

Trick Jarret replied on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/40kdsz/wizards_may_be_cracking_down_on_unsanctioned/cyvzi9d) (Screenshot) (http://i.imgur.com/HXg0zap.png)

tl;dr: What we call "proxies" are actually counterfeits and everyone knows counterfeits aren't allowed.

http://i.imgur.com/pOIARS9.jpg

Octopusman

01-12-2016, 07:19 PM

Our local shop called Wizards today to clarify this. They were told that no proxies were allowed anywhere in the shop, even for casual play, and the shop's status as a WPN member would be threatened by the use of proxies in the store. This has an excellent chance of killing Legacy at our shop, and a reasonable chance of killing Modern as well.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Okay, I'll bite and call.

To be honest though, as someone who worked in customer service for many years, this isn't likely to do much. However, people always freak out when you call out a founder or CEO on social media.

I've already emailed the CEO of Hasbro. I suggest you all do the same.

I can understand collectors getting upset with reprints devaluing their cards (if they will), but I can't wrap my head around retailers being against it considering they will likely move a ton of the new product and likely make even more money off of the increased player base who can now afford the reprints and eternal players like myself who rarely give the company money since I buy almost exclusively on the secondary market.

Barook

01-12-2016, 07:22 PM

So they would need just to include some restriction on use that means they are not functionally identical.

One thing I could think of, though I know Wizards would never go for, would be to link your DCI # and your MTGO account. Then setup a mechanism where you can obtain usable proxies (in events that allow them, not necessarily all events) that are linked to your DCI # and an not be used by anyone else, with the restriction that the proxies have to be of cards in your MTGO account, and those cards then becomes locked on your account so you (at least) can not trade them.
set up properly, and refined it could even let Wizards make money of Legacy and Vintage, though there would be some issues that need to be resolved, likely needing to be 1 set at a time, or in specific sized blocks of cards, with no sets that are currently being physically sold/in standard being available for proxies.
MTGO is just an afterthought that makes them shittons of cash while being a turd. Sad, but true. They don't even want to promote MTGO since they see it as threat to their paper distribution base, the LGS (kinda ironic that they now explicitely shit on said LGS with the enforced proxy policy).

Besides, Wizards introduced promo codes to get cards on MTGO. Have they used it for cross-over promotion? Nope, they haven't touched it since 2013.

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.
Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

Edit: @Octopusman: What's the E-Mail address of said CEO? But before we all spam him with widespread bile, I'd love to collect points to make suggestions that actually improve the game and raise awareness of Wizards' bullshit.

Octopusman

01-12-2016, 07:31 PM

MTGO is just an afterthought that makes them shittons of cash while being a turd. Sad, but true. They don't even want to promote MTGO since they see it as threat to their paper distribution base, the LGS (kinda ironic that they now explicitely shit on said LGS with the enforced proxy policy).

Besides, Wizards introduced promo codes to get cards on MTGO. Have they used it for cross-over promotion? Nope, they haven't touched it since 2013.

Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

Edit: @Octopusman: What's the E-Mail address of said CEO? But before we all spam him with widespread bile, I'd love to collect points to make suggestions that actually improve the game and raise awareness of Wizards' bullshit.

Easily Googlable but PM'ed.

AngryTroll

01-12-2016, 07:54 PM

Sounds like your forum name says it all. The guy on the other end isn't responsible and I don't see what he could change. Wizards can't go really go out and say "Proxies are a-OK" since that could potentially open the floodgates.

If anything, it would make more sense summarize a number of complaints (about MTGO, WotC's consumer-hostile practices, etc.), deliver a copy & paste version and E-mail Hasbro by the thousands. Which might be very effective if they fail to meet their Q4 earning expectations, depending on the wording. Main problem I see is actually getting the right E-Mail address since Hasbro's homepage is a nightmare to navigate.

I know the guy at the other end of the line can't do anything except note my call, but a bunch of calls being noted does get passed on up the line. It can't hurt. Be polite and nice about it, but let them know that you aren't happy about a specific policy.

iatee

01-12-2016, 08:07 PM

Oh come on you guys, you really think Wizards cares about a bunch of legacy players who barely buy product anyway bothering their customer support people? You think the CEO of Hasbro, hearing that the IP of one of their big $ properties is being infringed, will be like "Dear lord, what will happen to the proxy Vintage scene??"

If you want to protest this do it by organizing more proxy tournaments outside of stores, not by bothering a bunch of people who really, really, really don't care.

Wizards can make decisions using sound business reasoning which are nevertheless bad for eternal magic.

jrsthethird

01-12-2016, 11:30 PM

I realize fringe format is fringe, but don't most 93/94 events allow Collector's Edition as playable cards?

Also WCD cards are common stand-ins for EDH. I don't think Wizards is intentionally cracking down on these, but by their current policy on proxies these are collateral damage.

Actually Legacy and Vintage player pool with this policy will be just off hands from WotC. Simple as that - if they can't support those formats with reprints, they forbid replacement, so someone will just invest some money to create alternative DCI where proxies will be allowed - who doesn't want 10,000+ player base which could pay some minor price for "new sanctioning".

With so many Chinese counterfeit available game will stop being trade-able and became normal card game where you can mix new cards from WotC and old cards which would be proxies. Market doesn't like empty space. Paper have its durability even sleeved and protected, original old cards have already absurd prices to be played - would you use Alpha Black Lotus for tournament when each shuffling mean -100 Euro (at least) on its value ? Those times will come sooner or later with other Legacy and Vintage cards, thanks to "great" printing policy. And so strict policy about proxies won't stop it.

Unfortunately this alternative sanctioning organization would still need a place to hold events. WPN stores will not rent out events to an alternative organization; you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.

Barook

01-12-2016, 11:47 PM

you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.
Liliana's Sex Dungeon Series? Sounds like a plan. Just make sure you don't plow the wrong Mom.

Technically, couldn't Hasbro's legal team crack down on alternative tournament organizations?

thecrav

01-13-2016, 12:34 AM

Unfortunately this alternative sanctioning organization would still need a place to hold events. WPN stores will not rent out events to an alternative organization; you'll have to hold all your events in basements/banquet halls/sex dungeons.

Not that I think anyone will go to this effort but for stores that own their buildings

Physical building owned by Building, Inc
Building, Inc leases space to Store, Inc
Occasionally, Building, Inc allows some random people to play with cards that have sharpie on them.

The space isn't "the store." "The store" simply occupies the same area as the place people are playing.

Before someone points out that this is a dumb loophole that WotC will call you on, this is more or less how stores are able to get away with selling alcohol which is against the WPN agreement - the booze is sold by a separate entity than the game store.

Barook

01-13-2016, 01:05 AM

Brian Kibler found something rather hilarious:

https://twitter.com/BasicMountain/status/687131265070272512
https://twitter.com/bmkibler/status/687130213960957953

Just this Monday, they promoted a (paywalled) SCG video on their official homepage with proxies. The irony is off the charts.

Claymore1

01-13-2016, 03:25 AM

I really love this format, I hope I'll still have people to play. :cry:

HdH_Cthulhu

01-13-2016, 03:44 AM

Another thing.

Holiday/Vintage CUBE draft!

Alot of stores run this things (knowing that WotC is against it). Well know alot more people know how "illegal" this is and its way more likely to get reported :(

Haha ill just gonna aks my LGS to buy the REAL CUBE. What is it 15k 20k 40k?

Quasim0ff

01-13-2016, 03:53 AM

I seriously didn't think any1 here played proxy tournaments, anyhow..

Dice_Box

01-13-2016, 03:55 AM

I seriously didn't think any1 here played proxy tournaments, anyhow..
Even if true, we are not happy that Wizards would hurt those less fortunate than ourselves.

Quasim0ff

01-13-2016, 03:58 AM

Even if true, we are not happy that Wizards would hurt those less fortunate than ourselves.
That's obvious.

I just think this highly understandable, from Wizards PoV. Obviously it's sad, but this isn't the sky falling or any formats dying. Vintage FNM was hardly a thing, and legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?

lordofthepit

01-13-2016, 04:19 AM

Wizard's customer service number is 1 (800) 324-6496, 9am to 5pm Pacific Time. I called and reached a real person in under a minute, and my complaints about the proxy rule, the WPN threat, and the reserve list were all aired in under 4 minutes total call time. The person on the other end was not very helpful, but I told him I hoped he got a ton of negative calls.

Please take a minute to make a call.

Username checks out! :laugh:

Havrekjex

01-13-2016, 04:52 AM

legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?That`s wrong. Lots of stores everywhere hold unsanctioned Legacy events that allow a small number of proxies, 10 being the most common one as far as I know, so that people still need to commit to a deck and build most of it, they just get to pass on a few of the most expensive cards, often the duals. Some of these stores also hold no-proxy events, and the proxy events act as a gateway to the format for players that want to give it a spin before they spend $1000 on duals. Now they can`t, which means that people will play less Legacy in these places, which will hurt the format.

Not to mention that the most paranoid stores might actually stop players from using proxies in casual games. If WotC gets their way, I can`t meet a friend at a LGS to casually playtest two decks against each other using proxies before I decide to actually build the deck. We need to take that underground. Not to mention that EDH players can`t use proxies for stuff like blue duals, which is a pretty common practice where I live, not because they don`t own the card, but because they don`t feel like bringing $250 cards to casual games. It`s not likely to be enforced at that level, but if that isn`t an attempted overreach on WotC`s part, I don`t know what is.

snorlaxcom

01-13-2016, 04:59 AM

That's obvious.

I just think this highly understandable, from Wizards PoV. Obviously it's sad, but this isn't the sky falling or any formats dying. Vintage FNM was hardly a thing, and legacy proxy tournaments didn't really happen, I think?

In maryland more and more stores ran legacy proxy events as stores owners saw a market and a need for players to test out decks and move eternal product. These proxy events kept players coming back as store credit compiled and communities flourished with new players. The legacy scene is strong in the east in general, but has become so only because of these new players getting a taste of the format personally ether from a scg stream or watching a game in person. So sad many people were unable to play in this week's regularly scheduled legacy Tuesday. );

I find it very peculiar that my store in Gaithersburg was told to cease proxy legacy months ago and others stores in MD were still advertising proxy events up until now. I didn't say anything to the other stores because the owner of my local shop said WOTC contacted him directly, so I figured WOTC knew of the situation and had a problem with the way my store was promoting proxies.(?)

Spam

01-13-2016, 05:40 AM

They just want more money, nothing new here.

With this said, I'm so impress on how much unfriendly they can be towards their community.

dte

01-13-2016, 05:44 AM

For the casual games in store: Wizard can refuse that people use photocopies of cards. But if you want to play with your friend, you decide the game rules: you can start the game with 32.5 lifes and 6 cards, draw two per turn, etc.. and say that mountains can also tap for green. You can even write "Taïga" on them. Wizard cannot forbid that, the word "taïga" does not belong to them.
However, Wizard have the right to say that using photocopies of copyrighted material is illegal. Because it is.
And it can also threaten the shop that allow people to use these illegal copies of their intellectual property in their (public) space.

It is of course even worse when the "proxy" is closer to a "fake", i.e. when it is hard to distinguish between a proxy and the real card it is supposed to imitate.

But nothing and no one can forbid the use of small papers in your sleeves while enjoying a casual game with a friend, or to write whatever you want on the cards you own. They belong to you. Just don't imitate the copyrighted content that belong to wizard.

Havrekjex

01-13-2016, 07:07 AM

But nothing and no one can forbid the use of small papers in your sleeves while enjoying a casual game with a friend, or to write whatever you want on the cards you own.But… that`s exactly what they`re trying to do, and they have all the leverage they need to accomplish it. It`s been specified by WotC that proxies cannot be played in WPN game stores, even in casual games that has nothing to do with events. And whether these proxies legally speaking are counterfeits or not doesn`t make a lick of difference when WotC takes away the stores WPN status and denies them the opportunity to buy wholesale product, effectively shutting down a large part of their business. You are legally allowed to play a basic mountain as a Taiga, but the game store can make their own rules about what`s allowed and not allowed in the store (such as personal hygiene standards), and ask you to leave if your magic markered basic land breaks the rules of the store. WotC has the leverage to twist their arm into enforcing such bullshit store rules. What`s legal or not doesn`t really enter into it - sure, you can`t get sued for playing a counterfeit if that so-called counterfeit bears no resemblance to a real card, and the store can`t get prosecuted for people using them, but you can indeed be asked to leave the store for that because the store is worried about its WPN status.

Thank god this nonsense is near-impossible to enforce on a casual level, but advertising proxy tournaments, that`s going to feel very risky for game stores from now on, at least after receiving a first warning.

Bed Decks Palyer

01-13-2016, 07:10 AM

It's been my thought for some time that Wizards should license proxies. They should just charge companies for the use of card names and text. This avoids Reserve List BS, makes Hazzbro$$, and gets "cards" in the hands of players. Starcity prints tokens, it would be easy for them to pay for the rights to print proxies (with art/borders that bear no passing resemblance to real cards). Of course the big GS would probably charge a ridiculous amount for fake cards, China would counterfeit these proxies, and Wizards would find a way to loose$ in the process. And they don't care ( or have to care) about Eternal formats.
Don't know how relevant this thought is...
p. s. As someone who only plays EDH since two kids appeared, i like the conspiracy theories. I want moar EDH staples!

You know that the Adibas t-shirts are done on the same line as the fake ones? Just that the latter ones are done during the daily shifts.
Basically... I wouldn't be surprised if the news will come that some big printhouse (not exactly Carda Mundi, though) is making a genuine MtG cards for genuine Wizards and then after 12 hours it switches to fakes production for some Alibaba firm, a company that's so much very really great at escaping all the wrath and ire of WotC.
/tin foil hat

edit:

Not to mention that the most paranoid stores might actually stop players from using proxies in casual games. If WotC gets their way, I can`t meet a friend at a LGS to casually playtest two decks against each other using proxies before I decide to actually build the deck. We need to take that underground.
You'll use code language/ secret knowledge. Nobody could tell that you use unmarked proxies, uncounerfeited fakes. And you'll be fine.

Until the day comes when WotC announces that:

Whomsoever playeth the Grey Ogre with an intention and thought and opponent's approval that the card Grey Ogre representeth a Countryside Crusher, stone him to death outside the lgs.

Ever since then, the lgs will have an insane amount of staff who'd be walking their halls on guarding duty "hey guys, yes, you two, how come your cards act differently from what's printed on them? Do you use the ogres as giants?"
Also, where can I test the alpha of my new CCG: the Fantasy? Should the lgs owner throw me out for playing with printed cards that have nothing to do with MtG?

Not Quite Ogre Loam

2 Gruul Turf
1 Selsnya Garden
1 Rakdos Caranrium
1 Boros Garrison
1 Golgari Rot Farm
4 Naya Horizon
3 Abzan Horizon
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Frogotten Cave
1 Secure Steppe
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Gargoyle Castel
1 Thespian Stage

4 Cyclopean Mummy
4 Werebear
4 Noble Panther
4 Grey Ogre

3 Aura Mutation
3 Gaea's Blessing
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Fountain of Youth

Mental Magic at its best. Sue me, stupids...

QBChaz

01-13-2016, 08:18 AM

It would seem that there has been a policy shift. The following is the final paragraph of an article on the Mothership from 2013 which has been preserved at the below link:

"Whatever you choose, you're sure to have an immense amount of fun playing with all these high-powered Vintage cards. If you're worried about being able to get your hands on these cards (they are fairly hard to come by), talk to your local store owner or TO about hosting a proxy tournament! They're not able to be sanctioned, but they're a great way to enjoy Vintage fun and get a chance to experience this unique, incredibly rich format!"

November 3, 2013
Nate Price
Daily MtG
http://imgur.com/uit1OG8

Stinky-Dinkins

01-13-2016, 08:29 AM

You know that the Adibas t-shirts are done on the same line as the fake ones? Just that the latter ones are done during the daily shifts.
Basically... I wouldn't be surprised if the news will come that some big printhouse (not exactly Carda Mundi, though) is making a genuine MtG cards for genuine Wizards and then after 12 hours it switches to fakes production for some Alibaba firm, a company that's so much very really great at escaping all the wrath and ire of WotC.
/tin foil hat

Citation?

You'll find that factories making licensed products in China like those making products for Nike, Adidas, etc. have absolutely insane security measures (security guards, check ins, cameras everywhere, etc.) and are constantly monitored by their parent companies. Counterfeits are made when a counterfeiting organization buys legitimate product, deconstructs it, and attempts to recreate it. They are not made at the same factories, the contracts Chinese firms have with these companies are extraordinarily lucrative and the very second they're caught counterfeiting licensed product their contracts would vaporize, and no Western company would associate with them ever again. This is why counterfeits are never "perfect", you end up with something like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/magazine/22fake-t.html), if counterfeits were made at the same factories as their legitimate counterparts they would literally never be detectable.

CptHaddock

01-13-2016, 08:40 AM

Not sure if this has been posted but Helene Bergeot made a clarification on WOTC's policy regarding proxies. Looks like if you just want to play legacy without any sort of prizepool then you are more than free to do so.

@SvanteLandgraf This is entirely about stores running tournaments for profit (not about playtesting)

https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/687072898545102848

iamajellydonut

01-13-2016, 08:41 AM

"Whatever you choose, you're sure to have an immense amount of fun playing with all these high-powered Vintage cards. If you're worried about being able to get your hands on these cards (they are fairly hard to come by), talk to your local store owner or TO about hosting a proxy tournament! They're not able to be sanctioned, but they're a great way to enjoy Vintage fun and get a chance to experience this unique, incredibly rich format!"

November 3, 2013
Nate Price
Daily MtG
http://imgur.com/uit1OG8

lololololol

jmlima

01-13-2016, 08:46 AM

...I'm usually quite critical of them, but I do realize that in a way that's similar to holding a video game tournament with cracked copies of the game. ....

No it does not. It would only remotely be comparable if every deck in the event was entirely composed of counterfeit copies. And when I say counterfeit, its not WotC new definition of counterfeit, which has no legal validity whatsoever, but real counterfeits.

jmlima

01-13-2016, 09:01 AM

Citation?

You'll find that factories making licensed products in China like those making products for Nike, Adidas, etc. have absolutely insane security measures (security guards, check ins, cameras everywhere, etc.) and are constantly monitored by their parent companies. Counterfeits are made when a counterfeiting organization buys legitimate product, deconstructs it, and attempts to recreate it. They are not made at the same factories, the contracts Chinese firms have with these companies are extraordinarily lucrative and the very second they're caught counterfeiting licensed product their contracts would vaporize, and no Western company would associate with them ever again. This is why counterfeits are never "perfect", you end up with something like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/magazine/22fake-t.html), if counterfeits were made at the same factories as their legitimate counterparts they would literally never be detectable.

Ohhh... if you only knew the truth... I was once aware of a legal case involving a manufacturer of Levi's jeans that was sued by Levi's for selling counterfeit Levi's. The difference between the jeans? None , other than they were allowed a production run of x, and they were actually producing x+100 and selling the 100 on the side. And that is just one example.

jmlima

01-13-2016, 09:05 AM

Not sure if this has been posted but Helene Bergeot made a clarification on WOTC's policy regarding proxies. Looks like if you just want to play legacy without any sort of prizepool then you are more than free to do so.

https://twitter.com/HeleneBergeot/status/687072898545102848

I would really like to know if there was, instead of a physical alteration a verbal agreement between players (ie, 'this Plains is actually a Black Lotus'), does this also falls under the same policy? Or because there was no physical alteration is does not? What if there is a separate 'cheat sheet' with the equivalent replacements?

If yes is the answer, under which country's law is that definition of counterfeit acceptable?

Stinky-Dinkins

01-13-2016, 09:17 AM

Ohhh... if you only knew the truth... I was once aware of a legal case involving a manufacturer of Levi's jeans that was sued by Levi's for selling counterfeit Levi's. The difference between the jeans? None , other than they were allowed a production run of x, and they were actually producing x+100 and selling the 100 on the side. And that is just one example.

OK, once again, citation?

Anyone can say anything on the internet. Counterfeits these days are not made on the same production lines, this is some bizarre conspiracy theory. There may be one or two isolated instances of an insane manufacturer deciding to go above licensed quota and attempt to sell official merchandise on the side, but this does not in any way shape or form account for anything resembling a measurable amount of the counterfeiting market - that is not how the counterfeit market operates. To suggest that a manufacturer of Nike products, for example, simply starts producing "counterfeits" after the clock strikes 5pm is an absolute laughable farce - it would be suicide for a licensed outsourced manufacture to put in jeopardy a contract worth tens of millions, sometimes hundreds of millions and billions, simply to make a "few extra bucks" on the side. They are made when a counterfeiting outfit, separate from the company licensed to produce product, attempts to replicate an official design (most often this is just buying an official product, breaking it down, and recreating... but sometimes [which is much more rare these days] they get their hands on blue prints, design plans, etc.) If counterfeits were made on the same lines no one would even be talking about counterfeit products, because they would literally not be detectable. Companies spend unfathomable amounts on security these days protecting their patented designs and manufacturing techniques (endless seas of cameras, security, etc.) , Counterfeits are caught and investigated because there are distinct manufacturing differences between an official product and its simulated counterpart. Patent and copyright enforcement is so lax in China that there is an underground market of thousands upon thousands of shadow factories producing counterfeit goods nearly freely, but not one is an official contracted factory. The companies that make licensed products are massive umbrella companies and make tremendous amounts on their contracts, just look at companies like Foxconn. Using official lines to produce a handful of above-quota product would cause those contracts to go *poof*.

Havrekjex

01-13-2016, 09:22 AM

I would really like to know if there was, instead of a physical alteration a verbal agreement between players (ie, 'this Plains is actually a Black Lotus'), does this also falls under the same policy? Or because there was no physical alteration is does not? What if there is a separate 'cheat sheet' with the equivalent replacements?

If yes is the answer, under which country's law is that definition of counterfeit acceptable?None, I would presume. But the legal definition of a counterfeit is of zero relevance in this context. If WotC says jump, WPN stores ask how high, because stores can not afford to lose their WPN status. It`s not a legal matter, it`s about leverage.

I`m glad we got some clarification on Twitter now though (what CptHaddock posted). Apparently they only care about tournaments run for profit, which makes the whole thing a lot less ridiculous, yet still bad for the Legacy format.

jmlima

01-13-2016, 09:40 AM

OK, once again, citation?
...

Ermmm... law's office I use to be in.

Not everything is out of the reliable writings of the internet!

LeoCop 90

01-13-2016, 09:41 AM

Well, i'm hust here to say that this thing is happening since a couple years in my area (Italy) and it has destroyed our legacy scene. We usually had two events every month with ten proxies allowed and a regular attendance of 30 to 60 people. With zero proxies a lot of people gave up on legacy and turned to modern, now there is barely one event per month where reaching 30 people is the best we can hope.

CorwinB

01-13-2016, 09:41 AM

None, I would presume. But the legal definition of a counterfeit is of zero relevance in this context. If WotC says jump, WPN stores ask how high, because stores can not afford to lose their WPN status. It`s not a legal matter, it`s about leverage.

I`m glad we got some clarification on Twitter now though (what CptHaddock posted). Apparently they only care about tournaments run for profit, which makes the whole thing a lot less ridiculous, yet still bad for the Legacy format.

There is still confusion regarding playtesting, though. Helene Bergeot says playtesting/casual is not concerned, but Trick Jarret's Reddit post that she links to doesn't specify anything about playtesting in stores with proxies being authorized, just that :

Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.

That doesn't seem to separate playtesting/casual from unsanctioned events... And still maintains the absolutely asinine definition of proxies and counterfeits.

QBChaz

01-13-2016, 09:42 AM

I`m glad we got some clarification on Twitter now though (what CptHaddock posted). Apparently they only care about tournaments run for profit, which makes the whole thing a lot less ridiculous, yet still bad for the Legacy format.

Helene's "clarification" highlights how poorly worded Trick Jarrett's reddit post is because that is not how his post reads.

Havrekjex

01-13-2016, 09:53 AM

Helene's "clarification" highlights how poorly worded Trick Jarrett's reddit post is because that is not how his post reads.+1 on that. This adds to the confusion, though I think what Helene wrote on Twitter takes precedence over what one representative said to one store owner over the phone:

Our local shop called Wizards today to clarify this. They were told that no proxies were allowed anywhere in the shop, even for casual play, and the shop's status as a WPN member would be threatened by the use of proxies in the store.

Quasim0ff

01-13-2016, 10:31 AM

Obviously one should listen to Helene B, rather than what some store owner said he was told, by some random wizards worker.

Also, if the case was (and it seems like it was) that Wizards doesn't allow proxies for tournaments, this makes a ton of sense. Obviously they won't allow profit on counterfeits (proxy) cards.

dakkon

01-13-2016, 10:42 AM

I understand that passing off printed proxies as "real" mtg cards for tournament play should be discouraged. I don't see how writing "Mox Pearl" on a genuine Plains is not allowed for store sponsored unsanctioned events. Can someone clarify on the following: do cards HAVE to function the way they're printed? That's essentially what WotC is saying by "no substitutes." Does that mean Type 4, Mental Magic, etc can't be unsanctioned store held events? What if I'm a store and I want to support a format where lands tap for infinite mana? Or support a format called "Vintage Plus" where you're only allowed to have one of each snow-covered land in your deck but they are now 0 mana artifacts?

Julian23

01-13-2016, 10:47 AM

Bob Huang posted the shops response to Helene statement earlier today. Those two are contradicting with regards to whether or not proxies will still be allowed inside stores if used for non-tournament play.

If anything, this probably tells that even WotC itself either doesn't know what their actual policy is - or just did a shit job communicating it ex- AND internally.

Dice_Box

01-13-2016, 10:54 AM

I am thinking left and right hands are in need of a little sit down and chat.

Right now, if you are the owner of a store, the best thing you can do is not ask. If you are not told directly you can claim you did not know and there is no proof to say otherwise. I would also feel that if Wizards did cut off a store a lot of shit will happen from there. That's a line that once crossed can't be taken back.

Also not to totally hate on Wizards right now but if I can not play Vintage and every time I see a spoiler I have to email them and ask permission to talk about it (Because it might be leaked and I can no recourse if they ban me) what reason do I have to stay in their loop right now? What is my DCI number worth if I can not actually play formats I enjoy? I am on this site because I enjoy Magic as a game, not because I feel I owe anything to the company that prints it.

AngryTroll

01-13-2016, 11:23 AM

Our shop specifically asked their representative about proxy Legacy events, and then about proxied EDH decks and people testing with proxies in the store. The shop was told specifically that those cases were all a problem. This led to quite a nasty debate on the local facebook page, similar to the one here. I'm very relieved to read Helen's clarifications about this.

Not allowing proxy legacy tournaments is frustrating, but at least understandable. Not allowing proxied cards in an EDH deck people are casually playing in the store is crazy. I'm still not happy about the change, or the threat regarding WPN status, but at least the policy is within the bounds of reason now. The Wizards definition of "proxy" is still not the common use, and the prohibition of proxy Legacy and Vintage tournaments is bad, but at least they aren't threatening stores for having people with proxies in their EDH decks.

This could have been communicated much more clearly by Wizards.

jrsthethird

01-13-2016, 12:28 PM

I would really like to know if there was, instead of a physical alteration a verbal agreement between players (ie, 'this Plains is actually a Black Lotus'), does this also falls under the same policy? Or because there was no physical alteration is does not? What if there is a separate 'cheat sheet' with the equivalent replacements?

Full-art lands are the respective Mox.
Storm Crow is Time Walk
Wind Drake is Timetwister
Sorrow's Path is Library
etc.

All of a sudden, that $15 foil 7th Storm Crow hits $200. >_<

I`m glad we got some clarification on Twitter now though (what CptHaddock posted). Apparently they only care about tournaments run for profit, which makes the whole thing a lot less ridiculous, yet still bad for the Legacy format.

If 100% of entry fees are given back as cash, is that "for profit"?

This could have been communicated much more clearly by Wizards.

This should be a disclaimer at the bottom of their website and at the beginning of any phone call.

jrsthethird

01-13-2016, 12:30 PM

Also, just gonna leave this here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16980_Insider_Trading_Are_Proxies_Hurting_Vintage_Tournament_Attendance.html

GreatWhale

01-13-2016, 12:32 PM

Dice_Box

01-13-2016, 12:42 PM

Not everyone has been playing the game for 20 years and has a pile of duals. Just because you are the 1% does not mean that it is bad for the 99% to have options open to them. This is not good and if you think it is I would direct you to C-C today:

http://57.media.tumblr.com/4fd518aaa627a89578a8c7c4ee382a9d/tumblr_o0vu6yTN5B1s9rpajo1_r1_500.gif

AngryTroll

01-13-2016, 12:44 PM

Also, just gonna leave this here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16980_Insider_Trading_Are_Proxies_Hurting_Vintage_Tournament_Attendance.html

This quote jumped out at me:

The counterargument to this is always "Well if you play Standard you’re probably paying $200-$250 for a competitive deck that’s only good for two years!" or something like that.

What do Standard decks cost these days? It's not $250. That article is from almost exactly seven years ago (1/16/09).

Dice_Box

01-13-2016, 12:51 PM

I am not an expert on Standard by any means, so take this as it may. From what I understand this standard is the most expensive since Cawblade and right now the format lacks a "Mono Red" cheap build. Normally though its is not as expensive as it is now and I hear from Modern players that 300 ish is about right normally. (AU Dollars.)

Standard normally from what I understand is the most expressive long term to play but the cheapest to buy into blind. Normally anyway. Right now you can move into Modern for the price of a Standard deck but that is not the norm.

Edit:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/the-most-expensive-standard-since-caw-blade

Also I am taking us off track here. I am going to pull out of the talk now.

HammerAndSickled

01-13-2016, 01:10 PM

GundamGuy

01-13-2016, 01:16 PM

For the record, the original store that ran these events did NOT run the tournaments for profit, at least not directly in the sense of a tournament "rake" that we tend to expect. They took in cash/credit and paid out store credit, often more than they took in.

The prize structure was 10$ entry, capped at 3 rounds. The payout was $20 credit for 2-1, $30 credit for 2-0-1, and $40 credit for 3-0. So it's easy to see how this could pay out more than they took in depending on attendance.

There is a difference between not making a profit on a tournament and not running the tournament for a profit.

I highly doubt the store is a not for profit business, even if they don't know how to make one :wink:

If 100% of entry fees are given back as cash, is that "for profit"?

Why even charge an entry fee then?

Bed Decks Palyer

01-13-2016, 01:49 PM

Citation?

I read it some years ago so I'll hardly provide a link even if it would have been in non-paper medium.
The point was that there are whole and massive segments of market where you cannot sell the genuine product (say sub-Saharian Africa) because the people are too poor to purchase the stuff, however you still can build the brand's affinity through Adibas, Mike, Rebook and w/e.
I can't tell if that article was on to something or not, but it seems plausible. The security measures are nothing unexplainable; those Adibas are done for mother company...
Bit ot, I guess...

Shaman

01-13-2016, 01:58 PM

Good, proxies suck. People get bent out of shape about everything WOTC does, I've played Magic for 20+ years and everyone is always chicken little about the game about to collapse, remember 6th edition rules and combat damage not going on the stack? people flew off the handle that a mogg fanatic won't kill a 2 toughness creature. Wizards has rarely supported type 1 or type 1.5 since they created type 2, they don't have a nefarious plan to eliminate it but they also don't care about it.

Get over it, proxies were never cool.

I have been playing since 1994 and some years ago I decided to sell my Vintage stuff because NOBODY in 200km played/could play Vintage. This is a thing.

I give value to cards if I can PLAY with them. I feel my cards are loosing value day after day even if their price skyrockets.

That's quite sad.

sjmcc13

01-13-2016, 01:59 PM

There is a difference between not making a profit on a tournament and not running the tournament for a profit.

I highly doubt the store is a not for profit business, even if they don't know how to make one :wink:
The problem there is everything is for profit, and the things they apparently just backpedaled on (like Casual EDH proxies) are all things that makes the store more money to support, because they all get people buying snacks packs and singles. The only difference is proxy legacy tends not to inspire as much pack purchases, because wizards makes so few cards worthy of the format.

Why even charge an entry fee then?
To add some tension/seriousness to the matches.
All of of people play different when there is a prize to be won, as opposed to nothing other than bragging rights.

PirateKing

01-13-2016, 02:07 PM

Why even charge an entry fee then?

lol now we're going to level up the debate of proxy v. counterfeit to prize support v. profit! It should be pretty obvious that if a store runs a tournament using 100% of the entry fees to fund cash prizes, and subsisting on soda and single sales, then it's obviously not for profit. If they offering store credit as to prize, then you could have grounds for audit on what their cash equivalent store credit is. But in absence of an obvious rake, the standard for stores is that tournaments generate customers, and customers bring profit. The tournaments themselves can be revenue neutral, because their main purpose is to bring bodies into the establishment.

Dice_Box

01-13-2016, 02:10 PM

To add some tension/seriousness to the matches.
All of of people play different when there is a prize to be won, as opposed to nothing other than bragging rights.
It also helps those without anything win credit and build up to a deck. That brings in the crowds and makes a trip worth it. Takes me 2 hours one way to get to my store. I do not go on days there are no event because I am not going to sit around and hope people show. I am not going there for a chance at a game, I am going there to play a game.

That said, Store credit is not the same as cash pay out. It costs the store a lot less to pay out in credit that it takes me to pay out the same amount in cash.

sjmcc13

01-13-2016, 02:31 PM

That said, Store credit is not the same as cash pay out. It costs the store a lot less to pay out in credit that it takes me to pay out the same amount in cash.

Plus there are additional legal problems with winning cash in many locations...

GundamGuy

01-13-2016, 02:31 PM

To add some tension/seriousness to the matches.
All of of people play different when there is a prize to be won, as opposed to nothing other than bragging rights.

Yeah that's IMO part of the reason why Wizards is having problems... It's a Serious Unoffical Casual Game of Magic.... IMO if you didn't try to make it basically the same thing without being that thing you'd have a lot less problems... and they would have a lot less grounds to go after you.

lol now we're going to level up the debate of proxy v. counterfeit to prize support v. profit! It should be pretty obvious that if a store runs a tournament using 100% of the entry fees to fund cash prizes, and subsisting on soda and single sales, then it's obviously not for profit.

You just explained how they make a profit on this event, then said it is obviously not for profit.... :laugh:

If we want to go down the path of saying that loss leaders aren't done to create profit then... well might as well throw out the markting text books.

It also helps those without anything win credit and build up to a deck. That brings in the crowds and makes a trip worth it. Takes me 2 hours one way to get to my store. I do not go on days there are no event because I am not going to sit around and hope people show. I am not going there for a chance at a game, I am going there to play a game.

That said, Store credit is not the same as cash pay out. It costs the store a lot less to pay out in credit that it takes me to pay out the same amount in cash.

Right, and I totally agree on this. I'm just saying "Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge, play in this unoffical Event for Prizes" is why Wizards has problems.

IMO it's taking a offical format and playing it unoffically, but acting as though those unoffical events are offical in every way but name (Cash Entry Fees, Prize Payouts, etc)... that has Wizards worked up.

Barook

01-13-2016, 02:58 PM

Also I know I'm going to catch hate for this... but the entitlement expressed in this thread is astronomical.
The main problem I see is that Wizards is incredibly hypocritical about the matter. First they even suggest in articles that TOs should make unsanctioned events for Eternal formats, then some time later they're strong-arming stores to cut even those while no official policy change was announced.

Proxy events wouldn't be such an issue if Wizards had a better reprint policy. The current side effects are the Chinese getting more incentive to perfect their counterfeits and speculators pricing people out of the game (just look at the current prize spikes in Modern, Jesus Christ!). And neither is good for the long-term health of the game.

sjmcc13

01-13-2016, 03:27 PM

Yeah that's IMO part of the reason why Wizards is having problems... It's a Serious Unoffical Casual Game of Magic.... IMO if you didn't try to make it basically the same thing without being that thing you'd have a lot less problems... and they would have a lot less grounds to go after you. Sorry, that is Serious Unofficial Competitive game of Magic. Wizards does not have a monopoly on competitive play, though they probably want to. This is the basically the same as any other unsanctioned event, and do we see wizards cracking down on people playing fan formats they do not sanction/control, or stores still holding unsanctioned events when only 6 people show up for a sanctioned event?

These events are about experiencing aspects of the game that Wizards chooses to not properly support, and as a result are outside many people's price range. To make it worse, Legacy and Vintage are closer to the roots of the game in many ways then the summoner wars that standard has devolved into under their current design philosophy. anyone ever notice that alpha/Beta was closer to 1/3rd creatures then the 1/2+ they are now.

Personally, I only proxy cards in play testing, or if I have more than 1 deck using them, and not enough for every deck. If I like a deck and want to play it I will buy the cards. In Legacy I can build most Tier 1 - 2 Delver lists, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, ANT, MUD, Shardless BUG, Stoneblade, Maverick, Infect, U/B Tezzeret, Reanimator, and a few more decks. I support these types of events in principal because how else can I expect most players to stand a chance, as I derive 0 fun from winning because my opponent ran Daze/Foil/Thwart instead of Force of Will, Unfortunately running into someone who does not have a fully build deck is something that happens in every format, and it gets worse the more cards there are in the format.

PirateKing

01-13-2016, 03:31 PM

You just explained how they make a profit on this event, then said it is obviously not for profit.... :laugh:

If we want to go down the path of saying that loss leaders aren't done to create profit then... well might as well throw out the markting text books.

So now if Hasbro objects to sales of Coke because they really just prefer Pepsi, it's their manifest destiny to shutter the stores that object? Of course the store is a for-profit entity, but the tournaments specific to the purview of Magic the Gathering are what's in question. Like others have said:

Wizards doesn't care about legacy. Wizards doesn't care about vintage. Proxy legacy tournaments and proxy vintage tournaments are about as much of an issue to Wizards as Proxy Yugioh tournaments.

tescrin

01-13-2016, 03:36 PM

Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

This is basically the "end-game" of capitalism when it stops working. Same issue with Wal-mart in a lot of ways (who have now dominated so many stores that it causes issues:

* If wal-mart fails, many small towns who have been dominated by it and lost all of their shops will have *no* shops for an interim period.
* That Wal-mart's dominance allows it to bully companies into lower prices simply because it won't sell the product if they don't. Because they dominate so much of the market share, this would cost the company *even more* than hurting it's profit margin on each sale

It's not precisely analogous and I'm not some anti-capitalist; but the point is that simple supply-demand is not what's at play; it's rich companies extorting smaller ones that have orbited too close to the black holes.

That said, the precisely correct response is to ignore them as a collective of shop-owners because if everyone cooperated then WotC couldn't act. But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

See this wiki article that explains in game theory terms exactly why it's the best solution and exactly why that solution will be avoided. (Called "The Prisoner's Dilemma.") (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)

GundamGuy

01-13-2016, 03:42 PM

Proxy events wouldn't be such an issue if Wizards had a better reprint policy. The current side effects are the Chinese getting more incentive to perfect their counterfeits and speculators pricing people out of the game (just look at the current prize spikes in Modern, Jesus Christ!). And neither is good for the long-term health of the game.

I agree with you on that. The great thing is that speculators will catch both sides of it, they might make a killing today, but tomorrow they might lose there shirt... like all the Oil Speculators Recently....

These events are about experiencing aspects of the game that Wizards chooses to not properly support, and as a result are outside many people's price range.

Yeah, I hear you. I get it.

As much as I think Vintage would be cool / fun to play. I personally can't afford to play Vintage... (well I could but the trade-offs I would have to make would mean issues in other parts of my life.)

Here's the thing that bugs me about this whole argument though... I don't feel entitled to experience the things in life that I can't afford. It's also entirely Wizards choice what cards they print, and saying I'm entitled to play a format I can't afford because Wizards doesn't support it is just an excuse.

I know I'm going to catch shit for saying it, but Magic is a Trading Card Game, Ownership of Cards is and alwasy has been a factor...

So now if Hasbro objects to sales of Coke because they really just prefer Pepsi, it's their manifest destiny to shutter the stores that object? Of course the store is a for-profit entity, but the tournaments specific to the purview of Magic the Gathering are what's in question. Like others have said:

No don't be silly. However Hasbro can object to how you use Hasbro products as a loss leader to get people in the door to sell coke.

GundamGuy

01-13-2016, 04:10 PM

Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

"it" in this case being a product that Wizards owns, and has the sole right to provide. Fighting over Proxies is just a way to maintain their Intelectual Property Rights.

This is basically the "end-game" of capitalism when it stops working. Same issue with Wal-mart in a lot of ways (who have now dominated so many stores that it causes issues:

Barring allowing other people the right to create Magic the Gathering cards, how exactly do you plan to solve the Monopoly Problem?

That said, the precisely correct response is to ignore them as a collective of shop-owners because if everyone cooperated then WotC couldn't act. But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

See this wiki article that explains in game theory terms exactly why it's the best solution and exactly why that solution will be avoided. (Called "The Prisoner's Dilemma.") (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)

I'm not sure I agree, as I'm not sure that ignoring them is actually the most benifical outcome, and that giving in is actually less benifical. Do you actually think the best outcome is for a store to run no sanctioned events?

jmlima

01-13-2016, 04:15 PM

..
No don't be silly. However Hasbro can object to how you use Hasbro products as a loss leader to get people in the door to sell coke.

Actually, didn't they bar shop from selling alcohol, or some non-sense of the same kind?

If one day a group of tournament organizers join hands and offer a rip-off 'pro tour' with similar prizes, then WotC can really take their bullying and stuff it. Surprised how it did not happen yet.

GundamGuy

01-13-2016, 04:26 PM

Surprised how it did not happen yet.

I'm not. It's would be extremely risky and costly to do so, and I believe the profit margin would be pretty low (to zero).

I'm not positive of this, but I believe that I've read before that the Pro-Tour isn't a huge money maker for Wizards, and is one of those "Loss Leaders" they do to promote the game and sell packs. So a company that can't benifit from pack sales is at a disadvantage of having to either charge a lot more, or figure out some other way to make money on the events.

Edit:

Also I don't know about the alchol issue. I know the Mana Bar sells alchol at Card Kingdom... but having never actually been there myself I don't know if that's because they get around that in some way (like seperating that from the play area and prohibiting drinks in the play area) or what....

Cire

01-13-2016, 04:32 PM

Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

Except that what the shop is providing is a violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others)

But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

Let's not equate playing with proxies to slave revolt :/

Fatal

01-13-2016, 05:06 PM

Interesting thing - does goldborder cards are "legal" for testing on WPN shop - it's genuine WotC product (they have other back).

Second thing: I would like that some enough big organization like PokerStars create alternative for fading out Eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage where proxy are allowed - so changing collective non-playable (since no tournaments/enough cards for decent prices for players) game into non-collective playable game where cards are cheap since proxy are allowed.

tescrin

01-13-2016, 05:51 PM

Except that what the shop is providing is a violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others)

"it" in this case being a product that Wizards owns, and has the sole right to provide. Fighting over Proxies is just a way to maintain their Intelectual Property Rights.
The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

For example, if Wizards didn't like people playing "Go Fish" with mtg cards, but a shop provided a place to do that because customers demand it; please tell me how they are infringing on anything. And by "please tell me how they are infringing on anything" I actually mean "don't bother wasting your time because the shop hasn't done anything illegal or even morally questionable."

Let's not equate playing with proxies to slave revolt :/
I'm talking game theory. Let's not put words in my mouth.
First
* I'm comparing Shops giving up their WotC profits as a revolt of the shops
Second
* It's a legitimate comparison in The Prisoner's Dilemma point of view.

Barring allowing other people the right to create Magic the Gathering cards, how exactly do you plan to solve the Monopoly Problem?

It's unsanctioned. People in my area tend to care about it when it comes to Legacy, but not to Vintage. Why? Because an order of magnitude cost and the fact that Vintage can't hold huge tournaments. [/quote]

I'm not sure I agree, as I'm not sure that ignoring them is actually the most benifical outcome, and that giving in is actually less benifical. Do you actually think the best outcome is for a store to run no sanctioned events?
That's because you haven't thought it through. It's not about *one store.* It's about *every store.* That's why I posted The Prisoner's Dilemma.

If every store waved their middle finger at this garbage, WotC *couldn't* enforce it, because then no one would be able to play their game; put another way; they would have no where to sell *and* play their product. They'd be at the kitchen table, and their limited/sealed game would cease existing. They'd fold in an instant.

But, due to the Crab Mentality it will never happen.

Cire

01-13-2016, 06:04 PM

The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

They are knowingly offering a space for people to play with proxies, proxies being a violation of IP law (criminal or civil). Thus they are knowingly aiding and abetting IP infringement. Aiding and abetting IP infringement is a crime as well. Thus shops are violating IP law.

Morale questionablity is not the same thing as legal culpability. :wink:

* I could give a shit what you think. Take offence on your own time.

This is my own time :tongue:

Lord Seth

01-13-2016, 06:06 PM

The main problem I see is that Wizards is incredibly hypocritical about the matter. First they even suggest in articles that TOs should make unsanctioned events for Eternal formats, then some time later they're strong-arming stores to cut even those while no official policy change was announced.

Proxy events wouldn't be such an issue if Wizards had a better reprint policy. The current side effects are the Chinese getting more incentive to perfect their counterfeits and speculators pricing people out of the game (just look at the current prize spikes in Modern, Jesus Christ!). And neither is good for the long-term health of the game.Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

Legitimate question: Is there anything else like this, anywhere? Where you’re required to use something that’s “official” but the people who require you to use what’s official will refuse to sell it to you and will also not allow anyone else to create and sell it to you?

thecrav

01-13-2016, 06:17 PM

Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

This is really the crux of it for me.

Legitimate question: Is there anything else like this, anywhere? Where you’re required to use something that’s “official” but the people who require you to use what’s official will refuse to sell it to you and will also not allow anyone else to create and sell it to you?

It happens in corporate software fairly often. You get trapped on an old version. Upgrading to the new version is no longer supported. New copies of the old version are not available. Any kind of workaround you might come up with violates the license agreement. So you continue using Joe's Accounting 1997 v1.3 .

phonics

01-13-2016, 06:41 PM

Excuse me while I NFC some cards to play in a sanctioned tournament.

CorwinB

01-13-2016, 07:18 PM

They are knowingly offering a space for people to play with proxies, proxies being a violation of IP law (criminal or civil). Thus they are knowingly aiding and abetting IP infringement. Aiding and abetting IP infringement is a crime as well. Thus shops are violating IP law.

While the current crop of Chinese "proxies" that you find on Ebay or wherever are actually counterfeits (and as such fall under the scope of IP/Copyright law), sharpied proxies are not, and WotC trying to defend that in a court of law would be laughed out of the room. The key thing is, of course, that they don't have to have any sound legal argument or burden of proof, because it's their right to withdraw WPN support from shops and kill them in the process.

Cire

01-13-2016, 07:30 PM

While the current crop of Chinese "proxies" that you find on Ebay or wherever are actually counterfeits (and as such fall under the scope of IP/Copyright law), sharpied proxies are not, and WotC trying to defend that in a court of law would be laughed out of the room. The key thing is, of course, that they don't have to have any sound legal argument or burden of proof, because it's their right to withdraw WPN support from shops and kill them in the process.

I agree - which is why in my initial post I stated that the shop is either in violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or providing a place to play mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others).

TsumiBand

01-13-2016, 07:50 PM

Lord Seth

01-13-2016, 09:34 PM

It happens in corporate software fairly often. You get trapped on an old version. Upgrading to the new version is no longer supported. New copies of the old version are not available. Any kind of workaround you might come up with violates the license agreement. So you continue using Joe's Accounting 1997 v1.3 .Hrm, can you clarify? I'm a little confused. The problem seems to me that it's no longer supported to upgrade to the new version, but why is that? Is the situation just that the new version requires you to actually buy the new version and the company doesn't want to pay it when the old version works "good enough"?

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 01:50 AM

The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

For example, if Wizards didn't like people playing "Go Fish" with mtg cards, but a shop provided a place to do that because customers demand it; please tell me how they are infringing on anything. And by "please tell me how they are infringing on anything" I actually mean "don't bother wasting your time because the shop hasn't done anything illegal or even morally questionable."

First Wizards would have zero problem with people playing "60 card pick up" or "Go Fish" or "Old Maid" or whatever the heck you want with real MTG cards... because they are real MTG cards. Wizards has zero problem with stores running whatever game they want... as long as the product they are using is legit. You want to draft Beta, sure... want to do a wacky draft with boosters from different blocks... Wizards won't care a bit, even though it's not sanctioned.

"How they are infringing on anything"
See Wizards owns the IP rights for Magic the Gathering, not just the cards themselves but the rules and mechanics of the game. This is why other games can't have the same mechanics on different named cards... So it's not so simple to say the "specific game" is the product, because that specific game "Magic the Gathering" and all it's mechanics and rules are the Intellectual Property of Wizards of the Coast. This includes the rules that govern formats they invented.

Also no the Shop isn't merely providing a place to play, they are actually and actively setting up the event. If it weren't an shop run event that was advertised by the shop, and the shop were collecting money to organize / run it, then Wizards would have a lot less room to complain... but see they are actively involved in setting up the event and advertising it... and running it.... so it's not quite so simple to say it's only providing a place to play...

See you playing with proxys in your own home with friends when you play test... 100% AOK. (I mean wizards might say... please don't, but they don't have any grounds on which to come after you...)

But you play in an official (unofficial) event put on by a for profit business. An event that they run, and advertise, and collect money for.... and suddenly Wizards has a lot of room to come after those businesses.

It's unsanctioned. People in my area tend to care about it when it comes to Legacy, but not to Vintage. Why? Because an order of magnitude cost and the fact that Vintage can't hold huge tournaments.

It's funny to me that someone like you with some pretty conservative attitudes and view points would suggest that people should be entitled to play "Vintage" when they can't afford to play "Vintage." Or in anyway justify breaking the rules simply because they can't enjoy the thing they want to enjoy without either spending money or breaking the rules.

That's because you haven't thought it through. It's not about *one store.* It's about *every store.* That's why I posted The Prisoner's Dilemma.

If every store waved their middle finger at this garbage, WotC *couldn't* enforce it, because then no one would be able to play their game; put another way; they would have no where to sell *and* play their product. They'd be at the kitchen table, and their limited/sealed game would cease existing. They'd fold in an instant.

But, due to the Crab Mentality it will never happen.

What I love about you is how you bring out lively debate and colourful discussion.

First: First the Prisoner's Dilemma is a particular simultaneous move cooperation game, where the best outcome is achieved when both players (prisoner's being interrogated) cooperate, however both players have the incentive to defect and not cooperate (the promise of a reduced sentence)... this results in the Nash Equilibrium being the expected outcome.

Here's the problem. There is no incentive to defect. If an individual store defects it does not benefit, it's actually punished pretty hard. Furthermore even if you look at it as reversed (players should not cooperate, but do) there are numerous problems with calling this a prisoners dilemma. Is it actually correct that stores would benefit the most by not cooperating with Wizards? Doubtful because Stores and Wizards of the Coast have a mutually beneficial relationship. Wizards prints new Standard Singles that Stores can make bank on, and Wizards creates new sets and new events to draw in customers on a regular basis. Release events, Pre-Release Events, Game Days, FNM, and a host of other events that Wizards provides exclusive prizes for... I've not done the math, but I really doubt that the gains from running a handful of vintage / legacy events that allow proxies will make up for the loss of all those other events...

Second Problem: This is a sequential move game, not a simultaneous move game because Wizards knows what choice the store makes before they make decides how to respond... When it comes to sequential move games, signalling becomes important... which is BTW what Wizards is doing right now...

Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

I'm not sure why you see it as contradictory? Just because Disney doesn't put "Song of the South" on TV every day (or ever...) and never talk about, or put it on DVD... doesn't mean they don't / shouldn't care if you set up a public screening of it...
IMO I'd pick the word, Frustrating, over contradictory.

Last thought on this.

Magic the Gathering is in fact a Trading Card Game. I know WotC reprint polices are frustrating, and I know that most of us can't afford to play Vintage... but that doesn't justify ignoring property rights and ownership.

Also feel free to play with proxies in your own home, but if you are a Store, want to host an event with Proxies that you advertise, promote, or in any other way run... well, don't. Wizards has every right to take you to court over it, and if anything Wizards not doing so and instead harmlessly signalling and using other methods is a sign of how much they value you...so I recommend not pushing things.

Also if you want to argue that Wizards cracking down on these events "Harms" the store in some way, it makes the argument that these events are non-profit, or not infringement because they don't profit from it a lot weaker...

Hrm, can you clarify? I'm a little confused. The problem seems to me that it's no longer supported to upgrade to the new version, but why is that? Is the situation just that the new version requires you to actually buy the new version and the company doesn't want to pay it when the old version works "good enough"?

From my experience this is a different situation, where businesses often delay upgrading to newer versions for cost reasons, but the software creator intentionally drops support (at a set date) for the older versions to push businesses to adopt newer (supported) versions. I suppose it also happens that you might get stuck and the files you want to carry over are not supported by the new version, but that seems like a product of poor design more then a intentional decision to increase profits (since they could increase profits by making sure older versions were supported in the new version (Microsoft Office does a good job of this))

Keep it calm boys.

Dice.

Bed Decks Palyer

01-14-2016, 04:39 AM

It's funny to me that someone like you with some pretty conservative attitudes and view points would suggest that people should be entitled to play "Vintage" when they can't afford to play "Vintage." Or in anyway justify breaking the rules simply because they can't enjoy the thing they want to enjoy without either spending money or breaking the rules.

Not the first time I read about entitlement in this thread. Or on Source.
I don't care if those are Entitled Little Bitches behind the proxy scene or counterfeit industry, but to me it looks more like a demand-supply law in action. There can be no vacuum, and if WotC created it by their (imho weird and unnecessary) past decision, there will be forces trying to fill the void.
For you might only for so long stare into the abyss, until the abyss eventually stares back into you.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 10:30 AM

Not the first time I read about entitlement in this thread. Or on Source.
I don't care if those are Entitled Little Bitches behind the proxy scene or counterfeit industry, but to me it looks more like a demand-supply law in action. There can be no vacuum, and if WotC created it by their (imho weird and unnecessary) past decision, there will be forces trying to fill the void.
For you might only for so long stare into the abyss, until the abyss eventually stares back into you.

Totally agree with you that black markets arise when legal markets can't meet supply.

I agree with you that the problem of demand greatly out stripping supply is ENTIRELY due to WotC policy decisions.

I too am extremely frustrated by the decisions that WotC made that resulted in this mess.

I just don't have much sympathy for people who try to justify Proxy Events with excuses like this. One wrong decision doesn't justify another... IMO.

Dice_Box

01-14-2016, 11:09 AM

I just don't have much sympathy for people who try to justify Proxy Events with excuses like this. One wrong decision doesn't justify another... IMO.
I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage. Might just be me but I would rather have fun then sit at home looking at my Workshops.
(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

Admiral_Arzar

01-14-2016, 11:28 AM

(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

Fun in magic is a zero-sum game. I prefer to take all the fun for myself and leave none for my opponent :cool:.

QBChaz

01-14-2016, 11:35 AM

Fun in magic is a zero-sum game. I prefer to take all the fun for myself and leave none for my opponent :cool:.

Yes... but you do need an opponent :smile:

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 12:23 PM

I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage. Might just be me but I would rather have fun then sit at home looking at my Workshops.
(Granted I play shops, so only one of us is having fun.)

Sure I get it. I don't agree, but I get it.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only way Vintage is played is if you allow events with proxies. Yeah that makes it WAY easier to set up an event and find people to play, but it isn't the only way. Sure there will be a lot fewer Vintange events or people will have to work much harder to find people to play Vintage... but you know that's life. It's extremely easy to justify bad behavior with the excuse that it's too hard to do it the right way.

If you really love Vintage that much, maybe take the initative to improve the community and get more legit events to happen...

You've got to work for the things that are worth doing in life.

Also did you seriously buy into Vintage knowing how few events there are, with the expectation that you could play in more events by allowing people who didn't buy into Vintage to play with Proxies? Given that why buy in, why not just play with Proxies yourself?

HammerAndSickled

01-14-2016, 12:27 PM

In MANY parts of the world it is literally impossible to run sanctioned paper vintage. MD is a pretty big scene for eternal Magic and I personally know less than 5 people who own power.

Tammit67

01-14-2016, 12:29 PM

Sure I get it. I don't agree, but I get it.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only way Vintage is played is if you allow events with proxies. Yeah that makes it WAY easier to set up an event and find people to play, but it isn't the only way. Sure there will be a lot fewer Vintange events or people will have to work much harder to find people to play Vintage... but you know that's life. It's extremely easy to justify bad behavior with the excuse that it's too hard to do it the right way.

If you really love Vintage that much, maybe take the initative to improve the community and get more legit events to happen...

You've got to work for the things that are worth doing in life.

Also did you seriously buy into Vintage knowing how few events there are, with the expectation that you could play in more events by allowing people who didn't buy into Vintage to play with Proxies? Given that why buy in, why not just play with Proxies yourself?

If proxies aren't allowed, then the 2 events of 30 I get in the Philly area for vintage turn into maybe 1 event of 10 people. After seeing that turnout, there is no reason for a TO to organize an event with a prize structure worth driving to.

Why not just play with proxies? I enjoy having the cards and being able to play my deck at Vintage Champs

Morte

01-14-2016, 12:30 PM

I would rather play in a Vintage event that lets people play with 10 proxies then not play Vintage.

This. I started playing Old School last year and it is now one of my favorite formats. But, aside from a couple of big events per year when people from Germany and Sweden come to Milan, it is difficult to have a good number of players for a tournament without allowing proxies... and it is impossible to introduce new players outside of us, who already own those beautiful, crazy expensive old cards, totally useless in all other formats.

It is even more problematic than Vintage: you can own all Vintage staples, but still, Chaos Orb is 150€, a set of Juzam Djinn is 1200€, etc.

I would rather allow 10 proxies then deny people the right to try the real form of Magic.

nedleeds

01-14-2016, 12:39 PM

We've fired 2 sanctioned Vintage events in the last month, with 12 and 13 people. It's not impossible. Put some effort into it, award some unpowered prizes. Vintage isn't a right, and neither is Magic, not everyone can afford it at this point but I'm actually fine with it being somewhat exclusionary. I don't want to play some millenial idiot who fell off the modern apple cart and has no idea what's happening and will never actually buy in anyway. The sanctioned vintage environment, while smaller, is older more mature and just over all more enjoyable to play with for me (late 30s).

It's not like there aren't other options at every game store, in terms of both games and formats of Magic.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 12:39 PM

In MANY parts of the world it is literally impossible to run sanctioned paper vintage. MD is a pretty big scene for eternal Magic and I personally know less than 5 people who own power.

So?

Magic is a Trading Card Game.

Access to cards has alwasy been an element to the game. Am I entitled to run proxies of the Dual Lands so that I can play whatever Legacy Deck I want to run? Like is that cool with you, or is this arbitrary line that you use to justfy when proxies are OK higher then that but lower then Power. How about Tabernacle, I don't have one so I should be able to proxy one and play Lands right?

Additional and very critical point to this discussion that has digressed from the main issue some...

You running an unsanctioned paper vintage event with Proxies as a person in your own home or non-WPN site is very different from a Store that's part of the WPN running an unsanctioned paper vintage event with proxies. (Basically analgous to the difference between a Private Display of a Movie, and a Public one.)

I would rather allow 10 proxies then deny people the right to try the real form of Magic.

Playing Magic is in no way a RIGHT. It's 100% a previlage.

This is what I mean when I talk about that entitlement attatude.

I think my position is pretty well articulated at this point... so I'm tapping out.
Good luck at your Pre-releases this weekend, best of luck with opening Expeditions.

Dice_Box

01-14-2016, 01:11 PM

I will agree to disagree with you on this topic and then say let's end it. If we head too far down this path I know this threads going to turn into a shitstorm.

Right now the only new information we have is here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-magic-update/january-13-2016-update-2016-01-13) and it's saying there will be an update later on. Let's rest this topic and see what comes from the mother ship. I am sure we can get good and indigent later.

Cire

01-14-2016, 01:13 PM

Playing Magic is in no way a RIGHT. It's 100% a previlage.

This is what I mean when I talk about that entitlement attatude.

I'm on your side of the debate, but I think there could be an argument that Magic is a product that was sold to certain players with the promise and reliance on support of a certain format, and thus the participation of that format is a right in the sense of contract - if you view that the purchase of the cards was also a purchase of Wizard's commitment to maintain a certain format or to avoid acting against a certain format's development; and that Wizard's initial support of vintage tournaments was an assumption of that commitment.

01-14-2016, 02:08 PM

Wizard's offical statement (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14).

This week, a discussion emerged on the internet, particularly on Reddit and Twitter, about Wizards of the Coast's policy on proxies and in-store play. There is clearly a lot of confusion about what our policy is, where we stand on some of the finer points, and why we're trying to kill Legacy and Vintage (we're not).

Here is what happened. We became aware that a store was running a tournament with a suspiciously large prize pool and that they appeared to be allowing proxies. Since the word "proxies" is used colloquially to range in meaning from a marked up playtest card to counterfeit cards, the large prize made the event curious enough for us to want to make sure there wasn't something unsavory going on. We contacted the store to find out more about the event. Our intention was to educate them on counterfeit cards and proxies and ensure they understood our policy. Our communication specifically said that no sanctions were being handed out to the store; this was purely a fact-finding and educational outreach. So that's good.

The bad part was that the details of the policy discussed with the store were both unclear and inconsistent with other communications we've put out. As we dug into what was actually said, we realized that we had different reps in different offices around the world sending different messages, making the confusion even worse. And that's completely our fault.

So, let's clear things up.

Our stated policy specifically applies to DCI-sanctioned events. Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards. The only exception is if a card has become damaged during the course of play in a particular event (for instance, a shuffling accident bends a card or a drink gets spilled); in that case a judge may issue a proxy for use only for the duration of that event so the player can continue playing.

Our stance on counterfeits is also clear: Wizards remains committed to vigorously protecting the Magic community from counterfeiters. We will remain vigilant for illegal activity, and we will continue to work quickly and decisively with law enforcement agencies around the globe to protect against the creation or distribution of counterfeit Magic cards. Additionally, we reiterate in the strongest terms possible that any individual or retailer who knowingly deals in counterfeits works against the best interests of the community. Wizards has eliminated and will continue to eliminate from the DCI and WPN anyone who knowingly distributes counterfeit cards.

What has gotten caught up in the confusion are playtest cards used outside of sanctioned DCI events. And the reason it has gotten confusing is because we've never really talked about them before. So let's do that.

A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.

I know there have been different messages in the last few days saying things that conflict with the above (and with each other), and I apologize for the confusion we've caused though our own internal misalignment. Going forward, please take this post as Wizards' official stance. If you need to vent your frustration on anyone, send your thoughts my way instead of piling it on the various individuals who have tried to help by communicating through our chaos. And please know that we have multiple people looking at your feedback and comments on this topic and every other passionate issue that springs up in the community, so please do keep them coming.

And lastly, I wanted to end with a commitment to you for 2016. Speaking for everyone at Wizards, going forward we’ll be as transparent as possible and respond to issues you care about as soon as we can. We will always strive for clarity and better partnership, and will communicate with the belief that everyone has the best intentions for the game and community that we all love.

Enjoy Oath of the Gatewatch Prereleases this weekend!

Posted in News on January 14, 2016

So, really, all of this was over nothing, since this is how it's always been.

Dice_Box

01-14-2016, 02:08 PM

phonics

01-14-2016, 02:12 PM

The idea that this is about privilege or right to play magic is completely irrelevant, as is how certain formats would be affected. The problem is WOTC trying to bully itself into dictating what stores and players can and cannot do with (their own) cards outside of a sanctioned event. I own my cards, I can do whatever I want with them, including using some cards to represent others, and I don't see how outside of sanctioned events WOTC can think they have any business in this.

01-14-2016, 02:16 PM

Edit:
*Dam you H!* (Hug)

:cool:

I had a feeling this was what would happen though. I think they really need to address their policies on information dissemination, because mixed messages are really not a good look.

Morte

01-14-2016, 02:21 PM

Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.

So, we're officially allowed to (try to) promote Vintage and Old School between casual players. And keep our beloved elite formats alive :smile:

iamajellydonut

01-14-2016, 02:26 PM

So, really, all of this was over nothing, since this is how it's always been.

I mean, I know we consider Wizards to be the equivalent of an overgrown child that's disabled to the point where they sport a helmet and leak spittle onto seat cushions, but did anyone ever really consider that the truth was anything to the contrary?

MaximumC

01-14-2016, 02:30 PM

I'm on your side of the debate, but I think there could be an argument that Magic is a product that was sold to certain players with the promise and reliance on support of a certain format, and thus the participation of that format is a right in the sense of contract - if you view that the purchase of the cards was also a purchase of Wizard's commitment to maintain a certain format or to avoid acting against a certain format's development; and that Wizard's initial support of vintage tournaments was an assumption of that commitment.

It doesn't even matter. I mean, it's not about a contract, it's about whether people's feelings are valid or invalid -- always a *productive* conversation to have.

When people divide into camps of "Magic is too expensive!" on one hand and "So you can't afford to play, stop being so entitled!" on the other hand, one has to take a deep breath and realize this is a Card Game for Babies. It's completely reasonable for people to want to play Vintage and to be upset if they're expected to buy the equivalent of an expensive car or small house to be able to do so. It's also completely reasonable for people playing in sanctioned events to express annoyance that people want to play without having to pay what they did (in time or money) to participate. Let's stop belittling people for having one perspective or the other.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 02:40 PM

We have something official (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) now. It appears to try and calm the situation without directly saying that your weekly Vintage event is ok. (Because they can not come out and say that) What they do state is that they only care about sanctioned DCI events and without saying it, leave open the door to non sanctioned events. (At least that is what I read into it)

This clears things up a little, but not 100% either. Are "High Quality Proxies" actually just Counterfits by Wizards Definition? Does Wizards care about counterfits in commercial but unsanctioned events?

There was a lot of focus on playtesting, but does a unsanctioned commerical event with prizes fit that discription? Is that playtesting in the eyes of wizards, or something different?

The idea that this is about privilege or right to play magic is completely irrelevant, as is how certain formats would be affected. The problem is WOTC trying to bully itself into dictating what stores and players can and cannot do with (their own) cards outside of a sanctioned event. I own my cards, I can do whatever I want with them, including using some cards to represent others, and I don't see how outside of sanctioned events WOTC can think they have any business in this.

Agree and Disagree... For the most part your right, but the think there are actually 3 things to keep in mind.

1) You as a private individual doing something for your own personal use is clearly OK as Wizards said in the offical statement. (I don't think this was ever seriouly in question)
2) Business's hosting, promoting, and offering prize support for unsanctioned events with proxies might be ok. It also might not be, but not something Wizards is ready to go after people over yet.
3) When you join the WPN you agree to Terms and Conditions. You call it bullying the store... but you know the Store didn't have to agree to the Terms and Conditions and join the WPN...

Stealth 4th Thing... 4) "What Stores and Players" I think it's very important to understand that Stores, and Players have very different legal rights and obligations.

Morte

01-14-2016, 03:11 PM

it's about whether people's feelings are valid or invalid -- always a *productive* conversation to have

True. I remember similar debates more than ten years ago, when in the reader's mail of Inquest you could find people owning the power 9 and proposing to reprint all of them, and others saying they were crazy. Rumors or not, it is always a productive exchange of ideas, and another way to observe the general consensus and the sentiment of the player base.

[SLAYER]chaos

01-14-2016, 03:13 PM

I'm extremely happy Wizards has decided to pull their head out of their asses for this. I would be pretty upset if they killed vintage just as I was getting into it.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 03:52 PM

It doesn't even matter. I mean, it's not about a contract, it's about whether people's feelings are valid or invalid -- always a *productive* conversation to have.

When people divide into camps of "Magic is too expensive!" on one hand and "So you can't afford to play, stop being so entitled!" on the other hand, one has to take a deep breath and realize this is a Card Game for Babies. It's completely reasonable for people to want to play Vintage and to be upset if they're expected to buy the equivalent of an expensive car or small house to be able to do so. It's also completely reasonable for people playing in sanctioned events to express annoyance that people want to play without having to pay what they did (in time or money) to participate. Let's stop belittling people for having one perspective or the other.

First I disagree with your grouping, because I believe that it's entirely possible to believe that Magic is too expensive, and still think that you aren't entitled to play every deck, or every format (Who's down for Urza Block draft later?) I totally think that Magic is too Expensive and that Wizards Reprint policies are horrible.

That said people's feels are alwasy valid... they are what they are. That doesn't mean they are right, or justfied, or reasonable, but they are valid.

So serious question: Is it reasonable to be upset at Wizards because you can't afford to play Vintage? IMO Vintage is the Yacht Club of Magic...

Also I do think this actually is about more then just feelings. It's also about your legal rights as a consumer, vs. the legal rights of a retailer, vs. the legal rights of a producer / property rights owner.

Bed Decks Palyer

01-14-2016, 03:59 PM

IMO Vintage is the Yacht Club of Magic...

Which is wrong. Yachts are made of excellent fabric and they are HUGE. Also, try to proxy one and guess how it goes.

Ace/Homebrew

01-14-2016, 04:08 PM

So serious question: Is it reasonable to be upset at Wizards because you can't afford to play sanctioned Vintage?.
FTFY. And the answer is 'no'.

I think H/WotC won this thread... Should we keep it open to argue semantics? I feel entitled to a thread for arguing semantics!!

Sharpie basics are counterfeits!
Formats are like boats!
Wizards is like drooling kids!

TsumiBand

01-14-2016, 04:08 PM

I mean, I know we consider Wizards to be the equivalent of an overgrown child that's disabled to the point where they sport a helmet and leak spittle onto seat cushions, but did anyone ever really consider that the truth was anything to the contrary?

I think it would have been less problematic if they hadn't been on something of a tear lately regarding which parts of the game they were "protecting" and why.

A few months ago they asked a website to stop reporting on the metagame because solved formats are stagnant, or something. Then their efforts to reprimand individuals who were spoiling OGW cards had AoE and the DCI banned like 12 people.

They've never liked proxies, so really this last action was not all that hard to misinterpret. Years ago, there were a couple of NE stores that were threatened with legal action if they didn't cease handing out *incredibly stylized and in no way confused for the real thing Vintage proxies* as prizes. It's been a very long time since that happened so I recall very few details, but it is not like they've never dissuaded people from using Plains Ed Power 9 before.

I'm glad that they reversed or clarified this particular announcement, but I don't think that assuming it was worse than it seemed was a huge stretch either.

Cire

01-14-2016, 04:12 PM

I feel entitled to a thread for arguing semantics!!

It's more of a right IMO. :tongue:

jrsthethird

01-14-2016, 04:20 PM

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14

...still not 100% clear if unsanctioned proxy events are okay or not.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 04:29 PM

Which is wrong. Yachts are made of excellent fabric and they are YUGE. Also, try to proxy one and guess how it goes.

I know you are joking but you highlight a very good point between physical property and intelectual property rights. Also FTFY....

Where I was going with this really is that not every boat owner has to own a Yacht, and not everyone should even be a boat owner... there are different price levels... like in Magic... (but that's kind of gone away thanks to Wizards' lie about Mythic Rares... and how they wouldn't be staples....)

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14

...still not 100% clear if unsanctioned proxy events are okay or not.

I agree that is one way that you can read that statement.

You can also read it as Wizards doesn't care about any event that is not sanctioned proxies or not.

It depends on how muh emphasis you put on there points of clarification about "personal, non-commerical" use and the focus on addressing the issues of "playtest cards" (which IMO is a Red Herring... did anyone really think Wizards was going to outlaw playtesting without real cards?)

iamajellydonut

01-14-2016, 04:36 PM

They've never liked proxies, so really this last action was not all that hard to misinterpret. Years ago, there were a couple of NE stores that were threatened with legal action if they didn't cease handing out *incredibly stylized and in no way confused for the real thing Vintage proxies* as prizes. It's been a very long time since that happened so I recall very few details, but it is not like they've never dissuaded people from using Plains Ed Power 9 before.

Assuming we're talking about the same proxies, those New England proxies were condemned because they were being treated as real cards and encouraged to a certain point. ie: Ten card proxy limit, but the host-created proxies (that were only obtainable as prizes) didn't count towards that limit. Hell if I think that's wrong (I actually wish I owned a few), but it does cross a certain and understandable line even if it is frustrating.

GundamGuy

01-14-2016, 04:48 PM

Assuming we're talking about the same proxies, those New England proxies were condemned because they were being treated as real cards and encouraged to a certain point. ie: Ten card proxy limit, but the host-created proxies (that were only obtainable as prizes) didn't count towards that limit. Hell if I think that's wrong (I actually wish I owned a few), but it does cross a certain and understandable line even if it is frustrating.

I imagine that host created proxies are going to get you on the naughty list at Wizards regardless of if you count them toward the proxy limit or not. IMO it's a bad idea to give out proxies as prizes.

Richard Cheese

01-14-2016, 06:01 PM

Back in my day you were allowed to play with proxies as long as you could produce the actual cards on request. No unwashed, sausage-fingered meatsack got to riffle-shuffle your $200 Juzam if you didn't want them to!

Bed Decks Palyer

01-14-2016, 06:47 PM

Back in my day you were allowed...

Definitely not by the rulebook, though. I remember the 4th Ed rulebook to strictly forbid a Swamp with writing "Nitemarr" on it. But hey, I was late to the party so maybe it was different in 93-94.

I believe that what's a source of at least some misunderstanding in this thread (misunderstanding between posters, not of the actual WotC garbage style of info) is that ppl look a the very same thing from several angles and they don't even know (or maybe can't) choose the one that they discuss/ponder right now, not to mention they don't have a smallest clue (neither they give a damn) about which aspect are the other ppl discussing or considering.
This way I might catch all the flak for being entitled sucker who wants to ruin other ppl's hobby/collection just so that I may play with sharpied Pl... Swamp, while what I got on my mind is definitely something different; that no matter what is our opinion on morality of the affair (and guess what, there's no universal morale, who are you to judge anyone, we're free ppl in the land of the free, unchained from the moral dogmas of past, free to determine what's wrong and what's not), there's clearly the law of economics in work and ppl will simply pay for the joy of MtG only so much that's worth for them.

So if this would be an exceptional affair that has no precedent in past and isn't the base of everyday's and everyone's experience, I'd be silent, but seeing how the #copyingkillsmusic and wutnot is an inseparable part of pop-culture (of which MtG is yet another part), it makes nobody wonder that these things happen. And the whole IP law/idea is not only mess (why 70 years, what defines enough of a distinction from patent, are there any life-or-death consideration - but maybe rather ebola vaccine than MtG -, who's to listen to?), but also a joke (considering the whole success of USA stands with a stolen patent for some cotton-industry machine), I feel like there's more to say than “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to not play CE Tundra."

Barook

01-14-2016, 08:23 PM

Humphrey

01-14-2016, 11:20 PM

easy solution. just play counterfeits good enough no one will notice. problem solved.

CorwinB

01-15-2016, 02:04 AM

I think it was a mixture of incompetence, stupidity, being out of touch with the community (and reality) and a dash of delusions of grandeur.

Wizards have been overstepping its boundaries rather often quite lately (asking Goldfish to remove format data, judge suspensions and now this) while going full Nazi on the community. I don't think the whole ordeal was overblown. It's important that the community shows WotC that there's a clear limit of how much bullshit we can take. Otherwise, the game will suffer.

Edit: Having Prerelease this weekend probably helped to react to these PR nightmares, too.

This. I don't believe for a second that Trick Jarret would have gone out on Reddit and explained that sharpied basic lands were counterfeits without getting a Go from the higher ups. They tried something, it generated a huge backlash, they backpedaled. Win for the community (BTW, it seems they kind of backpedaled on the Judges suspension too, vastly reducing the suspensions and not keeping any long-term record), and good for WotC to admit wrong and answer quickly (even though the whole PR disaster was their fault in the first place, and they disguised their strongarming try as miscommunication within the company).

While they came out very clear on the "sharpied land = counterfeit" nonsense as well as on playtesting (proxies are ok) and sanctioned events (proxies are not ok), there is a grey area on unsanctioned events, and I think this is an area where they don't want to have an actual policy which could later be used against them when they really have to protect their IP from counterfeiting in courts.

jrsthethird

01-15-2016, 03:05 AM

I think this is an area where they don't want to have an actual policy which could later be used against them when they really have to protect their IP from counterfeiting in courts.

This is a good point.

PirateKing

01-15-2016, 07:18 AM

I went to a small gathering yesterday night that had a Legacy "play testing tournament" with up to 15 "play test" cards allowed in your list. It was described as a "play test tournament where players can practice new cards and strategies in a tournament-like environment."

So problem solved, I guess.

dte

01-15-2016, 07:49 AM

I guess my skills at reading English should have considerably dropped...

What I read here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) are clear statements:
- no counterfeit anywhere (understandable, it violate their IP);
- Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards. It's even in bold.
- You can use proxies (but not counterfeits) in non DCI-sanctionned events, or casual play in a shop or wherever you want. Anyway for them non DCI-sanctionned = casual.

These three facts are in perfect agreement with everything I've heard in the past few years. Nothing surprising.

Additionally they present excuses and apologies for the recent miscommunication. They even try to explain why their communication was so messed up, and it looks like these reasons are understandable.

And yet here it seems that everybody agree on the fact that this last communication is unclear? I just don't understand.

Side note: having proxies as prize is illegal if either the picture, the rule text or the name of the card matches one of the existing magic cards. It's violating Wizard's IP for commercial use.

Bed Decks Palyer

01-15-2016, 08:21 AM

I guess my skills at reading English should have considerably dropped...

What I read here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) are clear statements:

It came out yesterday. This thread is older than that...
Good read, though. She made the points as clear as possible, and she made lots of apologies.

Problem solved, case closed. Move on to another obstacle: what's the popular opinion on Brainstorm?

Steak

01-15-2016, 08:27 AM

What I read here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14) are clear statements:
- no counterfeit anywhere (understandable, it violate their IP);
- Cards used in DCI-sanctioned events must be authentic Magic cards. It's even in bold.
- You can use proxies (but not counterfeits) in non DCI-sanctionned events, or casual play in a shop or wherever you want. Anyway for them non DCI-sanctionned = casual.

Not trying to be pedantic but part of the reason the whole situation was blown up was because "Proxy" meant a couple different things to everyone. A proxy is only given by a judge to replace a card in a sanctioned tournament that has become unplayable. Playtest cards (what most people assumed were proxies) are just basics with sharpie on them. They didn't specifically say it, but I assume everything else is considered counterfeit e.g. full art Tundra.

I don't necessarily agree with considering custom and alternate art cards as counterfeit but I'm glad we're getting definitions straight from the horses mouth. I don't personally like or want them but I know a lot of cube enthusiasts do.

dte

01-15-2016, 09:42 AM

Not trying to be pedantic but part of the reason the whole situation was blown up was because "Proxy" meant a couple different things to everyone. A proxy is only given by a judge to replace a card in a sanctioned tournament that has become unplayable. Playtest cards (what most people assumed were proxies) are just basics with sharpie on them. They didn't specifically say it, but I assume everything else is considered counterfeit e.g. full art Tundra.

I don't necessarily agree with considering custom and alternate art cards as counterfeit but I'm glad we're getting definitions straight from the horses mouth. I don't personally like or want them but I know a lot of cube enthusiasts do.

A Proxy is something that is used to replace the actual thing. A proxy is not something illegal by itself. A counterfeit is.
A counterfeit can be used as a proxy (but it is illegal) so a proxy can be a counterfeit, but it doesn't have to be one.

You can use a beta tundra and use it casually as a proxy of a hallowed fountain in your modern deck, because you consider it looks better, if you warned your buddy before the game. It's the use that make the proxy, not the object itself.

a Full art tundra is not a proxy if you use them as a tundra, and can even be used in DCI-sanctionned events if the head judge agrees on it and if their actually made from an original tundra.
Using a real magic card and changing the illustration, or even doing whatever you like on it like cutting it into pieces is not counterfeiting anything. It can make a card not tournament legal though.

I guess everybody can understand what a counterfeit is? you do not have the right to use the art (so do not print proxies), it is copyrighted. But once you have an original card, whatever you do on it which isn't using IP is fine (altering your tundra using the art of Stasis is violating IP, as Stasis art is copyrighted. Additionally most judge will not consider it tournament legal, as it can be misleading).