[DECK] Eldrazi Stompy

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Delvis: what's your group's list?

[Delvis]

@Delvis: what's your group's list?

I don't want to share it without permission. I'll ask them tonight if it's kosher to share it now that the Mox event is over. Can't do it right now because FB is blocked on my work firewall.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I don't want to share it without permission. I'll ask them tonight if it's kosher to share it now that the Mox event is over. Can't do it right now because FB is blocked on my work firewall.

OK awesome thank you. Feel free to PM later too if that's better. Just trying to collect data.

[Gheizen64]

Taking from Mengucci List, i've been trying

-4 reshapers
+1 jitte
+1 sofi
+2 Eldrazi obligator

You have 8 red sources i think 2 obligators main are decently castable. They are decent as 3/1 haste already as they give you some more explosive starts which reshaper don't give you. But more importantly, obligators destroy board stalls and make things like platinum emperium suck a dick, plus grizzlybear and emrakul if you have enough mana (can't snT obligator sadly as it is on-cast).

The problem is 8 red sources mean that you sometimes have those hands where it get in your hand and you have three ancient tombs. Whatever. We need this artifact :

Altar of offerings :0:
Artifact
T, put a random card from your hand on the bottom of your library: look at the top five cards of your library. You may choose and reveal a land card from it. If you do , add it to your hand and put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in any order.

[Patrunkenphat7]

We need this artifact :

Altar of offerings :0:
Artifact
T, put a random card from your hand on the bottom of your library: look at the top five cards of your library. You may choose and reveal a land card from it. If you do , add it to your hand and put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in any order.

EDH players would love this, that's for sure. But yeah, a weak point in this deck is no library manipulation and the fact we play multiples of cards like Eye of Ugin and City of Traitors.

[bruizar]

EDH players would love this, that's for sure. But yeah, a weak point in this deck is no library manipulation and the fact we play multiples of cards like Eye of Ugin and City of Traitors.

Ancient Stirrings sounds like a plan. Even with Chalice of the Void (We don't always have the nut turn 1 Chalice)

[Delvis]

Ancient Stirrings sounds terrible. Please just don't.

[ChemicalBurns]

Green versions have been running Sylvan Library as a consistency engine and as we know, Library in general is a good card. I'd look to that first.

Looking towards the red splash, Obligator is a good card, but I think Vile Aggregate is the true reason to go into an aggressive red variant. Having a very early creature that can dual with Goyfs seems potent, and it and Smasher having trample can be very relevant on stalled boards. To maximise him though blue is a natural partner due to strong Scion generators, but maybe it's good enough on its own anyway. Something to think about.

[Kronicler]

Went 5-2 at the Eternal Extravaganza 4 Satellite 5k in CT yesterday, good for 10th place. This was the list I ran:

Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Creatures (21)
2 Endbringer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

Spells (15)
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

SB
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 All is Dust
2 Trinisphere

Beat Lands, Jund, Elves, UR Delver, and Miracles. Lost both my win-and-ins to Lands and D&T. Endbringer overperformed while Mox Diamond and Ratchet Bomb underperformed. There were roughly five people playing Eldrazi at the event, and I believe that I ended up posting the best record of the bunch. Some of us eldrazi pilots were sitting together at the end of the event debating the merits of different card choices. One guy swore that 4 Grim Monolith and 4 Lodestone Golem were crucial to the deck, but no one else really seemed to agree. At least everyone agreed that Mox Diamond is wrong, but we were split on whether that slot should just be another land and something else or spirit guides or monoliths. I will likely make the following changes for the SCG open next weekend:

MD
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Cavern of Souls
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Wasteland
+1 Endbringer

SB
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 All is Dust
+1 Crucible of Worlds

I wanted to be running 2 Crucible at this event as well but my 2nd is still in the mail. Regarding Cavern of Souls, we all know that it is super powerful, but I think that in general we are already favored against non-combo blue decks where it shines brightest. Meanwhile, Factory and Wasteland are both great against D&T and Lands, which seem to be two of our worst matchups so far (note that I haven't gotten a chance to test against Sneak and Show or Reanimator, which I suspect are also bad matchups). I could also definitely see swapping out the two Trinispheres for Winter Orbs, as it seems like the matchups where the 3-ball is best, e.g. Storm, Elves, Delver, are also already quite positive for us, while the orb seems pretty spectacular against anything running Rishadan Port (screw that card!).

I'd love to hear any comments or questions on anything I've written so far, but I would especially love to hear how people are beating D&T. Between Wasteland, Port, Flickerwisp (resetting Chalice or killing Endless One), STP, and fliers plus equipment I've really struggled with it. In my 2nd game against D&T yesterday I also had the distinct pleasure of Mangara + Karakas + Vial on 3 first holding off my Jitte'd Endbringer and then, once the D&T pilot used Council's Judgement to get rid of my Jitte, getting most of my board slowly exiled with Mangara. Why wasn't I able to pressure D&T while this slow and painful death was happening? Because he had two Wilt-Leaf Liege in play (one put into play for free when he STPed my Reality Smasher...) and two 6/6s stonewall most of our threats. That game was... not my favorite.

[mistercakes]

Went 5-2 at the Eternal Extravaganza 4 Satellite 5k in CT yesterday, good for 10th place. This was the list I ran:

Lands (24)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Creatures (21)
2 Endbringer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

Spells (15)
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

SB
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 All is Dust
2 Trinisphere

Beat Lands, Jund, Elves, UR Delver, and Miracles. Lost both my win-and-ins to Lands and D&T. Endbringer overperformed while Mox Diamond and Ratchet Bomb underperformed. There were roughly five people playing Eldrazi at the event, and I believe that I ended up posting the best record of the bunch. Some of us eldrazi pilots were sitting together at the end of the event debating the merits of different card choices. One guy swore that 4 Grim Monolith and 4 Lodestone Golem were crucial to the deck, but no one else really seemed to agree. At least everyone agreed that Mox Diamond is wrong, but we were split on whether that slot should just be another land and something else or spirit guides or monoliths. I will likely make the following changes for the SCG open next weekend:

MD
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Cavern of Souls
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Wasteland
+1 Endbringer

SB
-2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 All is Dust
+1 Crucible of Worlds

I wanted to be running 2 Crucible at this event as well but my 2nd is still in the mail. Regarding Cavern of Souls, we all know that it is super powerful, but I think that in general we are already favored against non-combo blue decks where it shines brightest. Meanwhile, Factory and Wasteland are both great against D&T and Lands, which seem to be two of our worst matchups so far (note that I haven't gotten a chance to test against Sneak and Show or Reanimator, which I suspect are also bad matchups). I could also definitely see swapping out the two Trinispheres for Winter Orbs, as it seems like the matchups where the 3-ball is best, e.g. Storm, Elves, Delver, are also already quite positive for us, while the orb seems pretty spectacular against anything running Rishadan Port (screw that card!).

I'd love to hear any comments or questions on anything I've written so far, but I would especially love to hear how people are beating D&T. Between Wasteland, Port, Flickerwisp (resetting Chalice or killing Endless One), STP, and fliers plus equipment I've really struggled with it. In my 2nd game against D&T yesterday I also had the distinct pleasure of Mangara + Karakas + Vial on 3 first holding off my Jitte'd Endbringer and then, once the D&T pilot used Council's Judgement to get rid of my Jitte, getting most of my board slowly exiled with Mangara. Why wasn't I able to pressure D&T while this slow and painful death was happening? Because he had two Wilt-Leaf Liege in play (one put into play for free when he STPed my Reality Smasher...) and two 6/6s stonewall most of our threats. That game was... not my favorite.

i've been running a similar deck, although only had time to test it for one day. it's really close to the channelfireball list posted recently:

Lands (25)
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sea Gate Wreckage


Creatures (23)
2 Endbringer
1 Masticore (could be 3rd endbringer)
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells (12)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

i've really liked having endbringer in the deck. you could consider running a 3rd urborg in the sb - this could give you access to massacre or dread of night if you're really worried about it (a bit trickier without mox though)

did you like revoker in the list? i felt it was just not in the style of the deck enough to want it.

you can also consider the 4 leyline of the void plan instead of other graveyard hate and it will also affect the lands matchup. some people are on that in the magic online leagues and there's a few 5-0's with it.

i also may consider changing my mana base a bit by cutting 3 cavern of souls and adding 2 mutavaults and a dust bowl. (i have wastelands, but this deck is pretty mana greedy, and i'm still testing out not playing wastelands at all.)

if you are on 2 crucibles sb wasteland makes a lot more sense. i'll probably end up playing wastelands again.

anyway, congrats.

[Luca Grease]

he had two Wilt-Leaf Liege in play (one put into play for free when he STPed my Reality Smasher...)

As a DnT pilot, that play is FANTASTIC. I incidentally just put 2 Lieges back in my SB after a long absence and I was wondering how good they actually were against Eldrazi. Granted, that opportunity probably won't come around too often, but it sure must feel sweet when it happens. As for how to beat DnT, I guess that additional mana ramp like monoliths and mindstones could help you against the denial, although they're susceptible to revoker (oftentimes, you only need a 1 turn opening to break through though). Maindeck Jitte and removal are obviously quite good, but I think that DnT is just naturally resilient to stompy decks due to vial, basic lands, spread out mana curve, etc.

EDIT: If you really hate rishadan port, try Tsabo's web I guess. Pretty useful against Lands too, I would imagine.

[Barook]

I wanted to be running 2 Crucible at this event as well but my 2nd is still in the mail. Regarding Cavern of Souls, we all know that it is super powerful, but I think that in general we are already favored against non-combo blue decks where it shines brightest. Meanwhile, Factory and Wasteland are both great against D&T and Lands, which seem to be two of our worst matchups so far (note that I haven't gotten a chance to test against Sneak and Show or Reanimator, which I suspect are also bad matchups). I could also definitely see swapping out the two Trinispheres for Winter Orbs, as it seems like the matchups where the 3-ball is best, e.g. Storm, Elves, Delver, are also already quite positive for us, while the orb seems pretty spectacular against anything running Rishadan Port (screw that card!).

I'd love to hear any comments or questions on anything I've written so far, but I would especially love to hear how people are beating D&T. Between Wasteland, Port, Flickerwisp (resetting Chalice or killing Endless One), STP, and fliers plus equipment I've really struggled with it. In my 2nd game against D&T yesterday I also had the distinct pleasure of Mangara + Karakas + Vial on 3 first holding off my Jitte'd Endbringer and then, once the D&T pilot used Council's Judgement to get rid of my Jitte, getting most of my board slowly exiled with Mangara. Why wasn't I able to pressure D&T while this slow and painful death was happening? Because he had two Wilt-Leaf Liege in play (one put into play for free when he STPed my Reality Smasher...) and two 6/6s stonewall most of our threats. That game was... not my favorite.
It isn't a good match-up, but it seems far from worst alongside Lands. Port is a bitch, though.

You already run Jitte, but I can tell you that Displacer helps alot in this match-ups. It holds back flyers (although flickering Flickerwisp isn't the greatest of ideas), takes care of Batterskull and ruins their equipment plan in general.

I didn't have a chance to playtest my 3 Containment Priests in the match-up yet since D&T is so rare on MTGO due to outrageous Port prices. It's a double-edged sword. One the one hand, it disables their Aether Vials (which are crucical for them in the match-up) and it powers up the exiler combo with Displacer, but on the other hand, it also turns their Flickerwisps into StPs. Not sure if it's worth it; it probably all depends on timing and draws. With all their utility creatures and equipment, Metamorph might also be cool (especially with Displacer).

Tsabo's Web disables Wasteland, Factory and Karakas (depending on what you run). Not a fan of such a narrow SB card.

[Delvis]

OK awesome thank you. Feel free to PM later too if that's better. Just trying to collect data.

One of the members of my group is taking the same 75 to the Open, so we're not giving out the list quite yet. I won't be surprised if it's public knowledge by this time next week, though, either via Deck Tech or having his list posted to SCG. If not, I'll send it to you.

[MD.Ghost]

If someone missed the Judge advice for Eldrazi:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32427_Ask-A-Judge-Colorless-Conundrums.html

Since Displacer get some love lately it should be important to mark, that if you exile Seer with Displacer you can choose the order of the triggers:
-see opponents hand first and exile a card and let them draw a fresh one (like Clique)
-or let him draw the new card and than check the hand and exile one card

----------
I will test the UW build today and see if it works or if i should stay GW (which worked for me good so far and Barook also got some nice results at MODO)

[Delvis]

If someone missed the Judge advice for Eldrazi:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32427_Ask-A-Judge-Colorless-Conundrums.html)

FB is blocked at my work, so I can't see if someone pointed this out in the comments, but she mentions in that article that Eye of Ugin reduces costs by {C}{C} (it's in the Painter's Servant question). That's incorrect, and a significant oversight. It reduces costs by {2}. Otherwise, it would be even more broken. Frankly, I'm surprised that she said that, given her credentials. I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of error by the editor.

[hofzge]

What do you guys think on the discussion between white, UW and GW?
I love both double colored versions as they have plans for any game involving a non-combo opponent - I think white is necessary as it shores up all bad matchups (Lands, Show and Tell & Reanimator). As for the second color - Green seems good; blue might be good -> has anyone actually tested blue until now?

Blue is probably better against creatures, as you have tons of blockers and flying blockers and can blink them. Also you have a lot of colorless mana in the scions, which makes you less susceptible against Blood Moon. Drowner and Displacer are great in the mirror.

Green can handle most permanents and has thus is probably better against Miracles. World Breaker and Displacer are again great in the mirror.

Neither World Breaker, nor Drowner will greatly change the Lands matchup, as when you get to that much mana you are usually well off (World Breaker handles Maze of Ith and Skyspawner can block Marit Lage FWIW).

[zyren]

What do you guys think on the discussion between white, UW and GW?
I love both double colored versions as they have plans for any game involving a non-combo opponent - I think white is necessary as it shores up all bad matchups (Lands, Show and Tell & Reanimator). As for the second color - Green seems good; blue might be good -> has anyone actually tested blue until now?

Blue is probably better against creatures, as you have tons of blockers and flying blockers and can blink them. Also you have a lot of colorless mana in the scions, which makes you less susceptible against Blood Moon. Drowner and Displacer are great in the mirror.

Green can handle most permanents and has thus is probably better against Miracles. World Breaker and Displacer are again great in the mirror.

Neither World Breaker, nor Drowner will greatly change the Lands matchup, as when you get to that much mana you are usually well off (World Breaker handles Maze of Ith and Skyspawner can block Marit Lage FWIW).

Why not go both? I posted a decklist on p24 that is WUG. After doing some playtesting, i found it was pretty strong. I never really had any mana problems as i have 12+ t1 sources (+ talismans) for each color. Skyspawner is a lot stronger than i thought he would be. The tokens also turned out way more useful than i thought they would be. They really helped ramp up to casting drowner or world breaker 1-2 turns earlier. Especially if you have displacer out and you flicker skyspawner eot with spare mana to get more of them. One move i really like: block with skyspawner and a token. sac the token to help pay for displacer flicker and flicker skyspawner. skyspawner and the token come back and you blocked 2 creatures. Now that i've played with skyspawner i dont want to remove the blue splash.

@barook: you asked me if i thought ditching factories was worth the blue splash: i think it is. I think the utility you get from skyspawner alone (being able to block flyers, creating more chump blockers, ramp for larger guys) is worth ditching factories.

[Fox]

Well it looks like ya'll took too long to tune the deck for null rods, spiked up to $60.

[bruizar]

Two variants I'm considering:

[1] Serum Powder list based on Eldrazi Shops

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Wasteland

4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
2 World Breaker
3 Warping Wail
3 Dismember


And here's an attempt to play a Processor build in legacy, though it looks too fair imo:

[2] Processor Build:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 City of Traitors
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Llanowar Wastes

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Blight Herder

2 World Breaker
3 Warping Wail
3 Dismember


Ulamog's Despoiler could fill up the 6 slot for a turn 3 9/9

EDIT: Leylines are immune to Abrupt Decay and it is hard to get explosives to 4 for lands. This shuts off loam and punishing fires and makes gamble much more of a risky play. You can still get 20/20'd easily though. The additional splash damage against reanimator, dredge, goyfs, tasigur, nimble mongoose, gurmag anglers and snapcasters is a nice extra especially given leyline is uncounterable, an important detail against tempo decks. Against burn you can side in Leyline of Sanctity. Helm of Obedience is an option too, but I don't like it too much.

[WinterN]

One guy swore that 4 Grim Monolith and 4 Lodestone Golem were crucial to the deck, but no one else really seemed to agree. At least everyone agreed that Mox Diamond is wrong, but we were split on whether that slot should just be another land and something else or spirit guides or monoliths.
Give Mind Stone a try. I tested in a store tournament and liked it. It works like Talismans in Wx versions but you can cycle it in late game.


And here's an attempt to play a Processor build in legacy, though it looks too fair imo:

[2] Processor Build:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 City of Traitors
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Llanowar Wastes

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Blight Herder

2 World Breaker
3 Warping Wail
3 Dismember


Ulamog's Despoiler could fill up the 6 slot for a turn 3 9/9

EDIT: Leylines are immune to Abrupt Decay and it is hard to get explosives to 4 for lands. This shuts off loam and punishing fires and makes gamble much more of a risky play. You can still get 20/20'd easily though. The additional splash damage against reanimator, dredge, goyfs, tasigur, nimble mongoose, gurmag anglers and snapcasters is a nice extra especially given leyline is uncounterable, an important detail against tempo decks. Against burn you can side in Leyline of Sanctity. Helm of Obedience is an option too, but I don't like it too much.

Interesting idea. I think that if you are going to play 4 LotV main deck, you really should play at least 1 or 2 Helms.

[mosaic]

Played weekly local:

Creatures (23)

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Endbringer

Spells (13)

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Warping Wail
2 Trinisphere

Lands (24)

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
1 Karakas

SB

4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Rest in Peace
2 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Warping Wail
1 Ratchet Bomb



ound 1: Grixis delver
g1 - my play was just horrendous, it is first game ever with the deck - no other excuse ... apart playing mostly blue
g2 - won back of cotv on 1, rest was just quick
g3 - lost due to bad draws, land flood - sigh brainstorms and ponders
Played one more game, off tournament, just out of curiosity and won.

Round 2: Burn
g1 - cotv on 1, was back breaking for burn player
g2 - same as g1
We managed to play 3 more games, as it was quick. Smash to Smithereens is very bad news for us, lost 2 out of those 3 games.

Round 3: Esper blade
g1 - Cotv on 1, just disabled his deck completely
g2 - Sequence cotv on 1, he goes sfm to find Jitte, Thought-Knot Seer showed Batterskull and Revoker on Jitte sealed the deal.

Round 4: NicFit
g1 - Veteran Explorer without Warping Wail is hard to beat, also made misplay of not playing Mox into his Pernicous Deed and fetching at least some dude
g2 - saw only 2 dudes and the rest were just lands whole game.....
Also played two more games, one which I won quickly even by eldrazi standards, second was won as well, but it was more of a luck and his misplay.


Next time I am going to remove

MD:
-1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 SoFi

SB:
not yet sure, played to few games... thinking about switching Trinispheres MD with Thorn of Amethyst, but Trini is good even against creature decks. Also All is Dust is an option worth to explore in this setup.

[MD.Ghost]

After my first UW sketch was destroy from Aggro Loam two days ago (Waste into Loam into Knight is so hard....note: I not see any RiPs in a couple of games) i reworked some slots and was ready for some hours of test games yesterday:

Matchups:

UB Tezzerator 2:1
ANT 2:1
ANT 1:2
Pox 2:0
Rb Goblins 2:0
BUG Delver 2:0
BUG Delver 1:2


Overall 6:2 which was ok for the first run. I used Wastelands (with Crucible Main), played with 1 Rasputin (combo once vs stalled field against Tezzerator, countered another game and boarded out most of the time), i also used All is Dust (Nice Thopter Army) and Ulamog against the grindy Games vs Tezz (faced: Bridge, Torpor Orb and Cursed Totem - all together! :laugh:).


What do you guys think on the discussion between white, UW and GW?
I love both double colored versions as they have plans for any game involving a non-combo opponent - I think white is necessary as it shores up all bad matchups (Lands, Show and Tell & Reanimator). As for the second color - Green seems good; blue might be good -> has anyone actually tested blue until now?

Blue is probably better against creatures, as you have tons of blockers and flying blockers and can blink them. Also you have a lot of colorless mana in the scions, which makes you less susceptible against Blood Moon. Drowner and Displacer are great in the mirror.

Green can handle most permanents and has thus is probably better against Miracles. World Breaker and Displacer are again great in the mirror.

Neither World Breaker, nor Drowner will greatly change the Lands matchup, as when you get to that much mana you are usually well off (World Breaker handles Maze of Ith and Skyspawner can block Marit Lage FWIW).

For me the core of both decks is very similar.

:wg: Maindeck offers you:

World Breaker (overall a great Eldrazi)
Conduit of Ruin (as a tutor)
All is Dust (bonkers if you can cast it)
Mishra's Factory (always a nice tool)


:wu: Maindeck offers you:

Eldrazi Skyspawner (don't underestimate it)
Drowner of Hope (immediately impact the field, a "hasty" Endbringer in some situations)
Rasputin Dreamweaver (Combo backup)
Wasteland or City of Traitors (aggressive game plan)


Side can be the same, it mostly contains :w: stuff. The GW Deck has a slightly higher curve and can be played as a control deck (besides the early Seer into Smasher starts), best card for this game plan is All is Dust, it clears the field and most fair decks can't win after it. Mishra and Displacer work as a good defense to reach the mid-late game to overwhelm the opponent.

The UW Deck can be played way more aggressively, because it can use Mox with Wasteland or City (both will not work unless you dont care about your manabase) and with Skyspawner you have an aggressive, evasive Beater. Both Skyspawner and Drowner work very well with Displacer, so you can always sink your mana. Compared to the "Kill them All" Spell from GW (All is Dust) UW uses more creatures and synergies to interact with the battlefield. This will need more micromanagement but will also work with only a few mana resources. If the build contains the Dreamweaver-Combo you are able to win some stalled boards or lock pieces.

Compared to colorless Eldrazi both builds offers your better solutions vs problematic situations. That will matter, if most players know how Eldrazi work and we see more "Eldrazi Hate" and it will be harder to smash the resistance. I mentioned "lock pieces": if you skim through other Deck Threads, you will see that some players try to find solutions for Eldrazi. Most of the time that will be lock pieces like Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Humility, Blood Moon someone even mentioned Peackeeper. So you should be prepared for any "random hate" if you (like me) won't lose against this stuff. GW and UW offers solutions (if you also mind your Sideboard) for every single "Hate" you will face.

In my opinion both build are superior to the colorless builds.


Why not go both? I posted a decklist on p24 that is WUG. After doing some playtesting, i found it was pretty strong. I never really had any mana problems as i have 12+ t1 sources (+ talismans) for each color. Skyspawner is a lot stronger than i thought he would be. The tokens also turned out way more useful than i thought they would be. They really helped ramp up to casting drowner or world breaker 1-2 turns earlier. Especially if you have displacer out and you flicker skyspawner eot with spare mana to get more of them. One move i really like: block with skyspawner and a token. sac the token to help pay for displacer flicker and flicker skyspawner. skyspawner and the token come back and you blocked 2 creatures. Now that i've played with skyspawner i dont want to remove the blue splash.

@barook: you asked me if i thought ditching factories was worth the blue splash: i think it is. I think the utility you get from skyspawner alone (being able to block flyers, creating more chump blockers, ramp for larger guys) is worth ditching factories.

Yes i can think you can combine both. At my first UW sketch i see 3 flex slots (2 Metamorph, 1 Rasputin), so it should be able to also include World Breaker if it is needed. World Breaker itself is good because he will be profit from Eldrazi Lands, can be tutored and comes with a nice body, but you will not "instant" win with him like Rasputin. I lost one game vs ANT against Empty the Warrens. I had Displacer on the field and my only out (and that is the funny part of the story) for the following 2 Draw Steps was: Rasputin - i not draw him and died to the Token Army.

Since i cut 1 Metamorph for Crucible i can now trim the other Metamorph (but this card works well with Displacer!) or the random Rasputin for World Breaker - i don't know if this is right. Have to play more games to figure out the right direction. As i mentioned above - you will need ways to win against some Hate pieces.

@Skyspawner: Zyren is right about it!- Yes, card works well. I like it with Jitte and as a Blocker for Delver etc. I also noted that (thanks to the token) you can get some very aggressive plays if you also have Eye of Ugin in play. Team up well with Displacer, so you get 8 Eldrazi for T1-2 plays that will do more than "stupid" Beaters like Mimic/Endless One.

------
Speaking of "Hate" had anyone considered the "Modern Idea": Worship? I think you can ramp it out early enough, since it is not easy to kill Seer/Smasher it can work against some decks (including the mirror :tongue:) - it will also be an answer against something like Price of Progress.

[bruizar]

Give Mind Stone a try. I tested in a store tournament and liked it. It works like Talismans in Wx versions but you can cycle it in late game.



Interesting idea. I think that if you are going to play 4 LotV main deck, you really should play at least 1 or 2 Helms.

On a second thought I'm inclined to agree, mainly because the list runs serum powder.
Perhaps
-1 World Breaker
-1 Dismember

+2 Helm of Obedience

[Delvis]

I took the same 75 I played on Sunday to a local event. I opened with an 0-2 loss to Lands, but finished with a 2-0 win over Lands and a 2-0 win over Shardless (final record 2-1), which are supposed to be our most difficult non-Blood Moon matchups. I used the store credit I won to buy into Eldrazi Displacer, but after last night's results I don't think we'll need it until the Eldrazi start to show up in much greater numbers - at which point we will probably move to a colored build, just like how in Modern the colored build beats the colorless builds.

I think in our current colorless build, nailing down our sideboard plan and finding the correct angle of attack against these decks is what will propel us to success. Fortunately, at least for now, most players are still figuring out how to attack us, so we're advantaged there.

[apple713]

Quick question, there is a lot of uproar about the awesomeness of this deck. All I see is another version of mud / stompy. Why is this better? Slightly more consistency?

There doesn't appear to be a "combo" so it's considered a "fair" deck. It gets wrecks by blood moon / back to basics / wasteland / tempo.

[bruizar]

Quick question, there is a lot of uproar about the awesomeness of this deck. All I see is another version of mud / stompy. Why is this better? Slightly more consistency?

There doesn't appear to be a "combo" so it's considered a "fair" deck. It gets wrecks by blood moon / back to basics / wasteland / tempo.

The main appeal is added consistency and disruptive capabilities. Tempo was a breeze for me. Cavern of Souls + chalice of the void + TKS handles is why the deck is good imo. Blood Moon is not really an issue imo. It shuts off a part of the deck, but there are plenty of ways to solve that issue. Even back to basics can be ignored because eye of ugin doesn't tap, so all you need is 2 mana to cast a big threat and try to ride that to victory. Or just wait until you can drop a world breaker on back to basics.

Wasteland and Rishadan Port are difficult to answer though

[apple713]

The main appeal is added consistency and disruptive capabilities. Tempo was a breeze for me. Cavern of Souls + chalice of the void + TKS handles is why the deck is good imo. Blood Moon is not really an issue imo. It shuts off a part of the deck, but there are plenty of ways to solve that issue. Even back to basics can be ignored because eye of ugin doesn't tap, so all you need is 2 mana to cast a big threat and try to ride that to victory. Or just wait until you can drop a world breaker on back to basics.

Wasteland and Rishadan Port are difficult to answer though

ok so in terms of power level where does the deck lie? Do you think its REALLY good? or maybe its performing better than it should because of the surprise factor?

The reason i'm asking you is because I know you've brewed other decks in legacy and you could give some accurate feedback as to whether this is the next big thing or just another contender...

If it is such a big thing, is it pushing other decks out of the format? and which decks?

[Barook]

Wasteland and Rishadan Port are difficult to answer though
Blue splash could theoretically run Teferi's Response in the board. Not saying that it's good, just food for thought.

[Delvis]

Blue splash could theoretically run Teferi's Response in the board. Not saying that it's good, just food for thought.

White splash could run Sacred Ground which I think is a card people forget exists.

[Barook]

White splash could run Sacred Ground which I think is a card people forget exists.
I certainly didn't forget it, but Sacred Ground can't deal with Port. Having good ways to keep mana denial in check would be great, but there doesn't seem to be a good "catch-all" solution.

[Delvis]

Quick question, there is a lot of uproar about the awesomeness of this deck. All I see is another version of mud / stompy. Why is this better? Slightly more consistency?

There doesn't appear to be a "combo" so it's considered a "fair" deck. It gets wrecks by blood moon / back to basics / wasteland / tempo.

Blood Moon doesn't see significant play. If it started to see play, the deck has outs in the form of Warping Wail and mana rocks. In addition, unless they're dropping it turn 1, we generally have a window to cast Thought-Knot Seer and take it.

Back to Basics could be a problem, but is less of an issue than Blood Moon because you are able to play Sol lands from your hand, and you don't have to tap Eye of Ugin.

Wasteland is a problem, but you'd be surprised. Since you have so many Sol lands, you're able to recover from a light Wasteland package with relative ease. Wasteland recursion is the real problem, but sideboard cards can help with that (we use Surgical Extraction). Cards like Thorn and Trinisphere also have a roundabout way of fighting Wastelands: sometimes they need the mana more than the disruption. This happened to my Shardless opponent last night.

Tempo is not really an issue. I suppose the matchup is draw-dependent to a certain extent, but cards like Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst, and Chalice are huge problems for the tempo deck. We play 4 Cavern of Souls so we don't have to worry about Daze or Force, and it works fairly well.

There are matchups on paper that look really bad for this deck, but in actuality, they just aren't that bad.

Why is it better than MUD? It's faster. A lot faster. MUD is still a good deck, and has a better top end. I just prefer a more aggressive, stompy-style strategy.

@Barook, I didn't mean to imply you had forgotten about it. I just meant I think people in general do. I guess there's not a lot of white decks that worry about Wasteland, though.

[bruizar]

ok so in terms of power level where does the deck lie? Do you think its REALLY good? or maybe its performing better than it should because of the surprise factor?

The reason i'm asking you is because I know you've brewed other decks in legacy and you could give some accurate feedback as to whether this is the next big thing or just another contender...

If it is such a big thing, is it pushing other decks out of the format? and which decks?

I thought the deck mulliganed terrible but it may have been my bad luck. It didn't feel unfair except against burn where i drew really crazy. Even though the deck did not impress me greatly, the fact remains that I did beat everything besides goblins (drew against intentional staller but he was on 1 life facing 9 damage without board or hand after all is dust so id count that as a win.)

Right now I like the colorless build most because it feels very optimized. The colored lists are still all over the place imo.
That said Im very curious to see how far i can take the processor build as i think serum powder is really good in theory. Mud has more explosive broken plays, but eldrazi doesnt die to itself as much

[iostream]

Three 5-0 stompy decks on MTGO today, and they're all running 1-2 Crystal Vein. Anyone have comments about this card?

[Delvis]

@bruizar, I see you talking about Serum Powder with Processors. I just want to make sure, but, you know the Processors have to process your opponent's cards, right?

[bruizar]

@bruizar, I see you talking about Serum Powder with Processors. I just want to make sure, but, you know the Processors have to process your opponent's cards, right?

Yes, this should work with Leyline of the Void. It would be amazing if you could processor your own Serum Powdered hand, but I know that doesn't work and wasn't what I was thinking :-). still possible in the mirror though? lol :X Serum Powder is there for a number of reasons one of which is to find leyline of the void (and sanctity from the board). Not that you should mulligan to 1 for a leyline, but if you do there is a 96% chance of hitting an opening leyline of the void. That means a single fetch will turn on Wasteland Stranglers and a second one will turn on all Blight Herders.

I already wanted to replace Mox Diamond for Serum Powder, because from my years of experience with Mox Diamond, the only deck that can support it is lands. Otherwise it just always sucked for me. Stompy decks have a hard time dealing with their own consistency, so a Serum Powder plus a very redundant list helps give you more consistent hands so that you avoid losing from yourself. Additionally, Serum Powder provides an out against Blood Moon during stalled games. When you go for Serum Powder, Leyline of the Void + Processors becomes a logical conclusion that I want to try out (Want to reiterate that I don't know if its good enough). The Modern processor decks rely on relic + scrabbling claws but I think we should be using a non-decayable, uncounterable and free version in legacy (and modern for that matter).

[Barook]

I love my Mishra's Factories, but I wonder about the following:

Could the GW list be tuned to support multiple Thragtusk in its 75? It dawned to me when I was reconsidering several slots (3sphere, Metamorph, and to a certain degree Conduit).

Thragtusk is fat, restores our strained life, leaves a token if they play removal (filling a quite similiar role as Factory) and, most importantly, comboes extremely well with Displacer. "2C, gain 5 life and a 3/3? - I'll take that."

Casting Metamorph can already be troublesome at times, so I'm not sure if it's the right direction to take since it would require some changes to the mana base, like probably adding City of Traitors (which I'm not exactly a fan of).

Edit: Either that, or a Stoneforge package, which might require less overall changes.

Edit #2: Did a bit of goldfishing, replacing
- 2 Metamorph
- 2 Conduit
- 1 Jitte
with
+ 4 SFM
+ 1 Batterskull

I might be onto something here for the white builds, but it's still too early to tell. I assume there's just a slight modification needed to optimally support the higher white count. SFM also opens up the wondeful world of Protection Swords.

[apple713]

I love my Mishra's Factories, but I wonder about the following:

Could the GW list be tuned to support multiple Thragtusk in its 75? It dawned to me when I was reconsidering several slots (3sphere, Metamorph, and to a certain degree Conduit).

Thragtusk is fat, restores our strained life, leaves a token if they play removal (filling a quite similiar role as Factory) and, most importantly, comboes extremely well with Displacer. "2C, gain 5 life and a 3/3? - I'll take that."

Casting Metamorph can already be troublesome at times, so I'm not sure if it's the right direction to take since it would require some changes to the mana base, like probably adding City of Traitors (which I'm not exactly a fan of).

Edit: Either that, or a Stoneforge package, which might require less overall changes.

Edit #2: Did a bit of goldfishing, replacing
- 2 Metamorph
- 2 Conduit
- 1 Jitte
with
+ 4 SFM
+ 1 Batterskull

I might be onto something here for the white builds, but it's still too early to tell. I assume there's just a slight modification needed to optimally support the higher white count. SFM also opens up the wondeful world of Protection Swords.

Just a heads up. If you want to support a sfm you need at least 10 sources that can produce white

[Barook]

Just a heads up. If you want to support a sfm you need at least 10-12 sources that can produce white
I currently run 11 white MD sources (2 Mox, 3 Talisman, 2 Karakas, 4 Brushland). I might cut a Factory for another white source. Not sure if I move the 3rd Karakas from the SB to the main or just use another white Painland in that slot. Freeing up SB slots is attractive, but too many legendary lands might be a hinderance to the MD consistency. If I go with a 3rd Karakas, I might also switch to a 3 Mox/Talisman configuration, but I'm not to sure about that. Mox enables nice openings, but also shits up later draws much harder than Talisman.

I'm also thinking about removing 3sphere from the MD (not doing enough too often imho and being kinda random) for a single MD Sword of X and Y. Not sure if it should be SoFaI, SoFaF or SoLaS.

I also kind of forgot why I put in Krosan Grip into my SB and why I picked it over Banishing Light (which can also hit creatures and PWs). :confused:

[apple713]

I currently run 11 white MD sources (2 Mox, 3 Talisman, 2 Karakas, 4 Brushland). I might cut a Factory for another white source. Not sure if I move the 3rd Karakas from the SB to the main or just use another white Painland in that slot. Freeing up SB slots is attractive, but too many legendary lands might be a hinderance to the MD consistency. If I go with a 3rd Karakas, I might also switch to a 3 Mox/Talisman configuration, but I'm not to sure about that. Mox enables nice openings, but also shits up later draws much harder than Talisman.

I'm also thinking about removing 3sphere from the MD (not doing enough too often imho and being kinda random) for a single MD Sword of X and Y. Not sure if it should be SoFaI, SoFaF or SoLaS.

I also kind of forgot why I put in Krosan Grip into my SB and why I picked it over Banishing Light (which can also hit creatures and PWs). :confused:

This is the situation with mox diamond. If your deck can capitalize on having that extra mana on t1 consistently than its worth 2x slots. If your deck can make up the card disadvantage later in the game, t4/5 then you could justify running 4. Depending on your mana base it may be a no brainer to run 4 because of multiple cot / legendary lands. Mox ensures that you can still draw them with consistency but use them if you get extra. 24 lands minimum to run 4 mox though. I think your hold up is finding a way to generate lost card advantage later in the game by running 4x mox.

White doesnt have anything along the lines of card advantage but green does and its perfect, sylvan library

[MGB]

Quick question, there is a lot of uproar about the awesomeness of this deck. All I see is another version of mud / stompy. Why is this better? Slightly more consistency?

There doesn't appear to be a "combo" so it's considered a "fair" deck. It gets wrecks by blood moon / back to basics / wasteland / tempo.

I've played Stompy decks for many years in Legacy - of all shades (white Soldiers, blue Faerie, red Dragon, green Sylvan).

This version simply feels faster, but not necessarily superior. Soldiers had card draw and Thalia, whereas this deck doesn't really have any kind of card draw, and it has to play Thorn instead of a 2/1 body attached to Thorn. Dragon Stompy had Moon effects which are arguably more disruptive than anything this deck plays with the possible exception of Thought Knot Seer. Faerie Stompy of course had access to blue which gave it counters and Back to Basics and the like.

I think people might be overestimating this deck, especially people who have never played Stompy variants in Legacy before. The power of Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere or Thorn effects will give the pilot alot of free wins, but these decks were never close to Tier 1 because at their heart they are still playing fair Magic without any kind of consistent smoothing of card draws that blue cantrips provide. I don't really see Eldrazi improving those weaknesses, because although they are very efficient, they are still just creatures fighting fair like any other Stompy deck.

The only way Eldrazi Stompy differentiates itself from the rest of the Tier 2 Stompy decks of Legacy is if they simply prove to be significantly faster and that speed makes up for other inherent deficiencies of creature-based Chalice/Tomb decks.

[apple713]

I've played Stompy decks for many years in Legacy - of all shades (white Soldiers, blue Faerie, red Dragon, green Sylvan).

This version simply feels faster, but not necessarily superior. Soldiers had card draw and Thalia, whereas this deck doesn't really have any kind of card draw, and it has to play Thorn instead of a 2/1 body attached to Thorn. Dragon Stompy had Moon effects which are arguably more disruptive than anything this deck plays with the possible exception of Thought Knot Seer. Faerie Stompy of course had access to blue which gave it counters and Back to Basics and the like.

I think people might be overestimating this deck, especially people who have never played Stompy variants in Legacy before. The power of Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere or Thorn effects will give the pilot alot of free wins, but these decks were never close to Tier 1 because at their heart they are still playing fair Magic without any kind of consistent smoothing of card draws that blue cantrips provide. I don't really see Eldrazi improving those weaknesses, because although they are very efficient, they are still just creatures fighting fair like any other Stompy deck.

The only way Eldrazi Stompy differentiates itself from the rest of the Tier 2 Stompy decks of Legacy is if they simply prove to be significantly faster and that speed makes up for other inherent deficiencies of creature-based Chalice/Tomb decks.

One of the issues of stompy was that it wasn't consistent. The creatures were not threatening enough without equipment, or the land couldn't support the threatening creatures. Eldrazi seems to come close because it gets 4-7 more "sol lands" with temple and eye. The creatures are consistently large and threatening on their own. Although they are threats they don't provide much utility so its hard to strike a balance. One of their perks over mud is that they are not artifacts, just colorless.

To answer you more directly, the creatures are more efficient and can be faster. The issue is that you are not fighting against fair decks in the format. While there is a fair amount of synergy in the deck I don't see anything AMAZING that says, oh wow that could change things.

I see tons of problems the deck could run into such as ensnaring bridge and very few ways to deal with it.

I'd say of all the stompy decks, green was probably the best. I know the deck never gained much recognition but it was discussed and worked on a lot by lejay. Green has access to some of the best creatures in existence, and GSZ and the deck still couldn't make the cut to tier 1 of the legacy format.

[MGB]

One of the issues of stompy was that it wasn't consistent. The creatures were not threatening enough without equipment, or the land couldn't support the threatening creatures. Eldrazi seems to come close because it gets 4-7 more "sol lands" with temple and eye. The creatures are consistently large and threatening on their own. Although they are threats they don't provide much utility so its hard to strike a balance. One of their perks over mud is that they are not artifacts, just colorless.

To answer you more directly, the creatures are more efficient and can be faster. The issue is that you are not fighting against fair decks in the format. While there is a fair amount of synergy in the deck I don't see anything AMAZING that says, oh wow that could change things.

I see tons of problems the deck could run into such as ensnaring bridge and very few ways to deal with it.

I'd say of all the stompy decks, green was probably the best. I know the deck never gained much recognition but it was discussed and worked on a lot by lejay. Green has access to some of the best creatures in existence, and GSZ and the deck still couldn't make the cut to tier 1 of the legacy format.

Exactly. I don't see anything AMAZING in this deck either. It's more consistent with more "sol lands" (but even the extra sol lands are only sol lands for the creatures and not for the lock pieces), and it's faster (cheaper creatures) than the other stompy decks, but that's basically it. There's no real degenerate card advantage engine, nor is there any really oppressive lock piece that wasn't already accessible to other Stompy decks. Thought-Knot Seer is by far the best Eldrazi and is a powerful tempo tool, but it's essentially at the power level of a Vendilion Clique or slightly better.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it top-8 a tournament or two at some point in the near future, but in the same way that MUD occasionally top-8s a tournament - the pieces fall in the right place and the deck just gets a string of good match-ups and good fortune. I can't see Eldrazi oppressing Legacy as it did to Modern, but it will be a deck to consider for your next Legacy gauntlet.

[Fox]

Exactly. I don't see anything AMAZING in this deck either. It's more consistent with more "sol lands" (but even the extra sol lands are only sol lands for the creatures and not for the lock pieces), and it's faster (cheaper creatures) than the other stompy decks, but that's basically it. There's no real degenerate card advantage engine, nor is there any really oppressive lock piece that wasn't already accessible to other Stompy decks. Thought-Knot Seer is by far the best Eldrazi and is a powerful tempo tool, but it's essentially at the power level of a Vendilion Clique or slightly better.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it top-8 a tournament or two at some point in the near future, but in the same way that MUD occasionally top-8s a tournament - the pieces fall in the right place and the deck just gets a string of good match-ups and good fortune. I can't see Eldrazi oppressing Legacy as it did to Modern, but it will be a deck to consider for your next Legacy gauntlet.

The reason this deck is better than other stompy lists is that it has a very easy time vs lots of combo decks; all the sol lands you could want and plenty of turn 1 plays (thorns, spheres, chalice, revoker, null rod) - repeatable lock pieces that turn into a 4/4 TKS hand-killer the next turn. Unlike MUD, this deck doesn't suffer from the age old problem of locking themselves out of the game with their own prison pieces. It also smashes non-proactive decks like miracles. Think of eldrazi as a 12-post deck that is actually good vs combo, but will still struggle with fair decks.

If I had a nickel for every time MUD went tomb -> monolith -> 3-ball and then opponent wastelands them, leaving them on city [in hand] and no way to cast a spell, I'd have a lot of nickels.

[AustinP]

there was a buyout on thorn because of this deck lol

[bruizar]

I know it's terrible slow but I think Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway

[Hopo]

I know it's terrible slow but I think Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway

Don't play subpar lands. Just put a Crucible or two to the sideboard for the matchups where Wastelands are a wincon/threat.

[Crimhead]

The power of Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere or Thorn effects will give the pilot alot of free wins, but these decks were never close to Tier 1 because at their heart they are still playing fair Magic without any kind of consistent smoothing of card draws that blue cantrips provide.
I guess D&T will never be close to tier one either.

Eldrazis Shops is far more consistent that people give it credit for. 7-8 lock pieces, 14-16 sol lands, plus a lower and more flexible curve make Eldrazis Shops a lot more consistent than old school MUD.

[MD.Ghost]

Could the GW list be tuned to support multiple Thragtusk in its 75? It dawned to me when I was reconsidering several slots (3sphere, Metamorph, and to a certain degree Conduit).

Thragtusk is fat, restores our strained life, leaves a token if they play removal (filling a quite similiar role as Factory) and, most importantly, comboes extremely well with Displacer. "2C, gain 5 life and a 3/3? - I'll take that."

Edit: Either that, or a Stoneforge package, which might require less overall changes.

Edit #2: Did a bit of goldfishing, replacing
- 2 Metamorph
- 2 Conduit
- 1 Jitte
with
+ 4 SFM
+ 1 Batterskull


Thragtusk is a card i loved from my old Nic Fit decks, but i think the "Gain Life" Idea lead to other cards. Thragtusk needs Green and while the deck can support many white cards thanks to 2-3 Karakas, green is a little bit harder (World Breaker profits from Cavern). So ok you can set Cavern for Beast, but this is only wise if you find a 2nd copy of Cavern (and your opponent don't Waste the first). The combo with Displacer is nice, but if i would try to find room (and mana) for a green card, my first pick would be Sylvan Library over KGrip, Thragtusk, Rec.Sage etc. Sylvan Library is perfect for a Mid-Lategame build like GW or RG Eldrazi. Sadly i can't find the right spot for it, but i think it can be a huge deal for consistency and it is more or less a threat on its own.

If you aim for "gain Life" you can try Instants like Feed the Clan or Rest for the Weary but i think the best options from white are: Worship and Ajani Steadfast - while Worship can be a no brainer (vs other Eldrazi etc.), Ajani offers a aggressive way for UW, his +1 will be quite good with Smasher/Seer and his other Ability can easily pump the Swarm (Skyspawner/Drowner + Displacer)

Stoneforge Mystic was at my very first White Eldrazi Sketch, with Displacer and with Matter Reshaper (!) - so yes it can work, but i would only use 3 + 1 Skull +1 Jitte, this leaves the GW Build with: Keep 1 Conduit (as a tutor) or keep 1 Metamorph (with Stoneforge and BSkull in mind) - but with the cut of Eldrazi i don't see the 3rd Eye as a good choice at Barooks Build. I would only use 2, because they will do nothing for many non Eldrazi cards at Mid-Lategame Builds - aim for as much consistency as possible.


I know it's terrible slow but I think Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway


Don't play subpar lands. Just put a Crucible or two to the sideboard for the matchups where Wastelands are a wincon/threat.

I also tried Wastelands at UW, i only see them at aggressive Builds - and i don't like all the builds that will use them without any Crucible... The Questions is, are Wastelands good enough, because Manadenial can be quite problematic for Eldrazi and it can lead to awkward decisions. I think, if you like to play bombs (All is Dust, World Breaker, Ulamog etc.) Wastelands are not so good, because if your Wasteland will not (more or less) win the game, your opponent can still recover and you can fall behind.


I guess D&T will never be close to tier one either.

Eldrazis Shops is far more consistent that people give it credit for. 7-8 lock pieces, 14-16 sol lands, plus a lower and more flexible curve make Eldrazis Shops a lot more consistent than old school MUD.

Death and Taxes, Elves etc. - you don't need "Blue", you need a well build deck that covers all the fair and unfair aspects of legacy to some degree. Consistency is important if you aim to win a long tournament and as far as I can see Eldrazi can be build that way, but it is no easy task and you still need a bit of luck and afterall a good pilot.

[MGB]

The reason this deck is better than other stompy lists is that it has a very easy time vs lots of combo decks; all the sol lands you could want and plenty of turn 1 plays (thorns, spheres, chalice, revoker, null rod) - repeatable lock pieces that turn into a 4/4 TKS hand-killer the next turn. Unlike MUD, this deck doesn't suffer from the age old problem of locking themselves out of the game with their own prison pieces. It also smashes non-proactive decks like miracles. Think of eldrazi as a 12-post deck that is actually good vs combo, but will still struggle with fair decks.

If I had a nickel for every time MUD went tomb -> monolith -> 3-ball and then opponent wastelands them, leaving them on city [in hand] and no way to cast a spell, I'd have a lot of nickels.

I've played lots of other Stompy lists that had strong game against combo decks as well - Soldier Stompy played 4 Thalias, 4 Chalices, and 2-3 Karakas MD. At the end of the day, you could beat all the combo decks in the world but if you're still trying to win by attacking with creatures, you have to fight through creature hate such as sweepers (Terminus and co. are all still very live against Eldrazi and any other "Stompy" deck) and Batterskulls and opposing creatures racing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've played lots of other Stompy lists that had strong game against combo decks as well - Soldier Stompy played 4 Thalias, 4 Chalices, and 2-3 Karakas MD. At the end of the day, you could beat all the combo decks in the world but if you're still trying to win by attacking with creatures, you have to fight through creature hate such as sweepers (Terminus and co. are all still very live against Eldrazi and any other "Stompy" deck) and Batterskulls and opposing creatures racing.

It's pretty easy to beat a Terminus with this deck. If you have a Chalice, a single Reality Smasher will force them to Terminus and you have plenty of other big dudes.

[Delvis]

there was a buyout on thorn because of this deck lol

Holy crap, you weren't kidding. TCG Mid is suddenly $16. WTF?

Meanwhile Trinisphere is up to... $20? Good god!

Safe to say at this point, the ship is sailing. I'd say it's already sailed, but I think the prices are going to continue to rise after SCG Philly.

[bruizar]

It's pretty easy to beat a Terminus with this deck. If you have a Chalice, a single Reality Smasher will force them to Terminus and you have plenty of other big dudes.

Also, there is Warping Wail or Displacer activation on TKS during Miracle trigger

[MGB]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32467_They-Arent-Stopping-With-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32461_The-Eldrazi-Invade-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32464_Going-Medium-Eldrazi-In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32466_Good-Guy-Death-And-Taxes.html

It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.

[iostream]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32467_They-Arent-Stopping-With-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32461_The-Eldrazi-Invade-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32464_Going-Medium-Eldrazi-In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32466_Good-Guy-Death-And-Taxes.html

It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.And they all disagree in various ways on how the deck should be built. Except for Crystal Vein? When did that become a standard part of the deck?

[Delvis]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32467_They-Arent-Stopping-With-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32461_The-Eldrazi-Invade-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32464_Going-Medium-Eldrazi-In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32466_Good-Guy-Death-And-Taxes.html

It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.

Fortunately it's very clear these guys are on level 1 as far as strategizing with/against the deck. This thread, and my team in particular, are several steps beyond the thinking they are laying out.

For example:


I mean, how does this deck beat True-Name Nemesis?

You attack over it with Reality Smasher. You make a bunch of giant Eldrazi and they can only block one. And the whole time, they can't attack you, or you get to run them over. I love seeing True-Name across the table. It means they tapped out to play a Fog Bank.

Also, Brad Nelson seems to be convinced that Death and Taxes is the way to beat the Eldrazi deck. Our testing shows this matchup to be favorable for us at worst and easy at best. It's something like 60/40 in favor of Eldrazi but we don't have a huge sample size. I think this is because we go much heavier on cards like Revoker and Warping Wail which are quite good against D&T, where Brad's sample list plays light spatterings of them.

Although:

But don't think you can sleep on this deck and just dodge it. I think many of the better players at the event will want to try out the hot new thing, and having a lot of strong pilots playing a powerful, proactive deck could spell disaster yet again.

You're correct on this one, Todd. There are two Legacy Champs/SCG Open champions in my testing group that will be bringing this deck to Philly.

I'd be more worried about Miracles running Moats in the sideboard, but unless they already have them, who's going to shell out $300-600 for sideboard cards?

@iostream Crystal Vein isn't a standard part of the deck. They're just on level 1 as far as deckbuilding. These lists are all theory with no testing to support them.

@MGB The surprise factor was already gone thanks to MODO being infested with unrefined versions of this deck. The real advantage is that people still don't know how to play against it yet, but we know how to play against them thanks to extensive testing.

[bruizar]

The thing is, between All is Dust and World Breaker, there are no permanents that provide safety from Eldrazi's inevitability. No moat, no True-Name Nemesis. Most they can do is stall and win before you can solve it. The only silver bullet imo is wastelocking.

Those articles are indeed a few steps behind. It's good to see Barook's list in there. The conclusion that lands is the best deck to beat Eldrazi is semi-accurate. I think Goblins is a good contender as well. That said, I will develop the processor version more as Leyline of the Void in theory should put a dent in the lands matchup and I'll continue to pilot between GW/UW/colorless until I feel more comfortable with the processor build.

[Fox]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:
It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.

I don't think there is anything too complex when it comes to beating this deck. In modern it is mainly a question of whether or not you can catch up on mana (you generally need to be using aether vial). In legacy it's a little more complex as you must ask what your deck can win through (in terms of lock pieces), and if you get past that point it's about comparative creature quality and/or life differential (having life gain like bskull or forcing them to tap tombs). Less often the answer is to get under the eldrazi deck (according to sideboards reanimator for example), or establish lock with lands.

This deck has no shortage of bad matchups, but to its credit DnT and Lands are about its only tier 1 predators. Outside those two decks [and amazingly fast combo] there are fairly serious questions posed to Eldrazi by cards like Aluren, Ancient Grudge (especially if we start seeing Taiga in burn), Ensaring Bridge + Abyss (tezz), Blood Moon (as much as it pains me to point out that legacy twin is on the very short list of decks that can actually cast this in a relevant time frame, through taxes), Back to Basics (more likely to find its way into a deck with petals), Wurmcoil Engine, and to round this hastily made list: Tabernacle...and maybe even Kataki. As game-ending as such cards can be vs Eldrazi, you actually don't need your deck's gameplan to work all that well if you can keep eldrazi tapping their tombs.

As a closing thought, eldrazi will likely be less able to rely on reality smashers with the infusion of more madness mechanic in coming set.

[bruizar]

I don't think there is anything too complex when it comes to beating this deck. In modern it is mainly a question of whether or not you can catch up on mana (you generally need to be using aether vial). In legacy it's a little more complex as you must ask what your deck can win through (in terms of lock pieces), and if you get past that point it's about comparative creature quality and/or life differential (having life gain like bskull or forcing them to tap tombs). Less often the answer is to get under the eldrazi deck (according to sideboards reanimator for example), or establish lock with lands.

This deck has no shortage of bad matchups, but to its credit DnT and Lands are about its only tier 1 predators. Outside those two decks [and amazingly fast combo] there are fairly serious questions posed to Eldrazi by cards like Aluren, Ancient Grudge (especially if we start seeing Taiga in burn), Ensaring Bridge + Abyss (tezz), Blood Moon (as much as it pains me to point out that legacy twin is on the very short list of decks that can actually cast this in a relevant time frame, through taxes), Back to Basics (more likely to find its way into a deck with petals), Wurmcoil Engine, and to round this hastily made list: Tabernacle...and maybe even Kataki. As game-ending as such cards can be vs Eldrazi, you actually don't need your deck's gameplan to work all that well if you can keep eldrazi tapping their tombs.

Urborg is the main reason why I like the colorless / processor build. I said it before and I'll say it again. I have died to Ancient Tombs more than against my opponents over the last 10 years. Urborg is so much better in legacy than it is in modern precisely because it mitigates forced damage from ancient tomb.

[Crimhead]

As a closing thought, eldrazi will likely be less able to rely on reality smashers with the infusion of more madness mechanic in coming set.
The idea that we will see Legacy playable madness cards is speculative at best.

[Barook]

The thing is, between All is Dust and World Breaker, there are no permanents that provide safety from Eldrazi's inevitability. No moat, no True-Name Nemesis. Most they can do is stall and win before you can solve it. The only silver bullet imo is wastelocking.

Those articles are indeed a few steps behind. It's good to see Barook's list in there. The conclusion that lands is the best deck to beat Eldrazi is semi-accurate. I think Goblins is a good contender as well. That said, I will develop the processor version more as Leyline of the Void in theory should put a dent in the lands matchup and I'll continue to pilot between GW/UW/colorless until I feel more comfortable with the processor build.
Quoting my list and then shittalking Displacer without obviously playtesting is disappointing. Endgame? Displacer can be online T2-T3, depending on the match and your draw.

After MD.Ghost's feedback, I'll test a Stoneforge list with 3 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull, 1 SoFaI MD and a SB Sword of Feast and Famine.

[bruizar]

Quoting my list and then shittalking Displacer without obviously playtesting is disappointing. Endgame? Displacer can be online T2-T3, depending on the match and your draw.

After MD.Ghost's feedback, I'll test a Stoneforge list with 3 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull, 1 SoFaI MD and a SB Sword of Feast and Famine.

It's not that I'm shit talking Displacer, I like displacer. It's nice and interactive but that doesn't change the fact that it costs 6 mana to displace, a steep price. Displacer is a slow control card in white which naturally moves one to a Death & Taxes style deck at which point you could ask yourself whether you should play DNT+Displacer or Eldrazi+SFM+Thalia. My issue with Displacer is similar to MUD vs Stax. Tangle Wire / Smokestack are great control cards, but that doesn't mean they should take up slots in an aggressive MUD build.

The main thing Displacer has going for it is that it's great against SNT decks and combos with Drowner of Hope and Thought-Knot Seer. It's a control card so yes it is slow (6 mana for a displace, 2 full turns to get it online).

[DigitalPsycho]

Hey guys,

i would love to know how you would fill out the rest of this:

53 cards:

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
4 Endless One

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


14 Sb:
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Winter Orb
1 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Leyline of the Void

thats what i have in real life and i'm not sure how to fill out the rest and if i should replace the 3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with Mishra's Factory. Any healp would be appreciated.

[Barook]

It's not that I'm shit talking Displacer, I like displacer. It's nice and interactive but that doesn't change the fact that it costs 6 mana to displace, a steep price. Displacer is a slow control card in white which naturally moves one to a Death & Taxes style deck at which point you could ask yourself whether you should play DNT+Displacer or Eldrazi+SFM+Thalia. My issue with Displacer is similar to MUD vs Stax. Tangle Wire / Smokestack are great control cards, but that doesn't mean they should take up slots in an aggressive MUD build.

The main thing Displacer has going for it is that it's great against SNT decks and combos with Drowner of Hope and Thought-Knot Seer. It's a control card so yes it is slow (6 mana for a displace, 2 full turns to get it online).
Wait, you're Ross Merriam? :eyebrow: I was refering to his article, not to your quote.

The 6 mana can be split up over two turns in a deck that supports tons of Sol lands. By the same logic, Mimic would be bad because it costs 6+ mana to become a relevant beatstick. What's nice is that it completely disables the creature for combat, unlike Endbringer in the more ramp-heavy builds.

As far as combos go, the combo with TKS isn't the main appeal (I used it exactly in one game so far against Shardless to control its draws; btw I had double activations up early in this game due to Temples) - it's just an added bonus. If anything, the most relevant combo is post-SB with Containment Priest.

Besides, my build isn't meant to be aggro, it's midrange, which fits the purpose of Displacer much better. Funnily enough, I'm actually going more and more back to my D&T roots with the deck. :laugh:

@DigitalPsycho: I would definitely run 4x Cavern maindeck. It's your free ticket against blue decks.

[Deckerator]

Iplay the colorless version. I've got some questions about the deck.
At first the mana base.
My mana base is the following:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin

Now my questions are:
Do i wanna play Urborg, maybe two copies? Do i wanna play 4 eye of ugin to draw it as fast as possible? Do i wanna play Wasteland?

My creatures:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Endbringer

To the creature base. I've seen a lot of list with Matter Reshaper. Have you got some testing experiences with him?
I think i wanna add him.

The other cards:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

Help is greatly appreciated

[Ronald Deuce]

I think colorless or green splash is probably the way to go with this deck for the time being. I've only played against it once (and I don't play this deck at all) but it strikes me that the more colors one plays, and the more colored sources one plays, the more likely one is to whiff on a T1 Chalice, Thorn, or Trinisphere.

I wouldn't run any fewer than ten lock pieces. When I played the deck I was on Storm and playing against easily one of the best players in my (admittedly small) meta, and even with a Thorn and a Chalice I still managed to combo off with Hurkyl's in game 2, and to Ad Nauseam in game 3 through Chalice on 2 and Thorn. I didn't win game 3, but that's because Ad Nauseam is a cruel mistress, not because the lock was too strong.

I'd run a set of Elvish Spirit Guides and a set of Trinispheres, with at least two Trinis in the main. Spirit Guides let you play Trinisphere on turn 1. An added bonus to running Spirit Guides is you can run 2-3x utility cards like Berserk (to end the game really, really quickly) or Crop Rotation (to cut back on Karakases, to stop Dredge from eating this deck alive, and, perhaps, to give a replacement strategy for City of Traitors).

The strength of this deck, regardless of the speed of the beatings it can throw down, is its prison package. That's the only reason anyone plays MUD at all, and even if the kill is faster in this deck, it still needs the protection of the artifacts in order to function properly. White doesn't help out except that it can bring Thalia to the table, and both the shrimpiness of Thalia compared with nearly everything else in the deck and the awkwardness of paying :1: :w: off of cards like Sol lands indicates that it's probably better to be running colorless permanents in that slot instead. If a Storm player (i.e., someone who's running a deck against which Eldrazi is STRONGLY favored) can combo twice through two pieces of hate in two consecutive games, the deck isn't doing what it's supposed to do.

[Fox]

The idea that we will see Legacy playable madness cards is speculative at best.
It was in response to "everyone will be gunning for eldrazi" comment. The fact is, madness is criminally undercosted and reality smasher is one of the few ways to give an opponent an on-board discard outlet whose timing they control. A card like Dark Withering indicates the level of power creep from Torment to Time Spiral (a DRS kill away from seeing play in something like reanimator), and I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to preemptively begin dropping to 3 Smashers. It is speculative yes, but with that line of text about discarding already on smasher, the only thing that is needed is a good madness card getting printed and suddenly you could be looking at a very good anti-eldrazi card. While you can get in the habit of shaving smashers post-board, this isn't going to help vs goyf decks (especially the ones that'll use Liliana anyways).

[InWaking]

So I've been toying with the notion of eschewing all reactive spells and going with a completely proactive plan.
Everyone I've spoken to about this has said it was terrible and a waste of my time to test since I have no time before this weekend to try it out I thought I would consult the experts.
The list:
4 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Matter Reshaper
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Endbringer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas

The sideboard
2 All Is Dust
1 Endbringer
3 Warping Wail
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Trinisphere
2 Pithing Needle

I really like the whole being mega aggressive and this falls to the same short comings of losing to bridge and Moat. I have been so confused on what to do with this deck and there are a billion different directions it can go. I know that I want to stick to colorless but it worries me that it may be previous level and this weekend in philly I'll get crushed by everything. I know a lot of people hate lodestone in the deck but it certainly helps the deck push the aggression to the next level and has rarely set me back on mana for it usually trades with a card and "unlocks" my Reality Smashers on curve.
Any insight as to why I should not play the main like this other than "it's bad and you should feel bad" would be nice. My friends are trying to convince me to just go with Todd Andersons list though I believe Ari Lax list to be better though I am not convinced on either of them. Although I am pretty sure Winter Orb should be in the sideboard as it is most likely good vs lands and has it's utility against Port. I also would like to make room for NullRod.
To my understanding our worst matchups are
Death and Taxes
Lands
Affinity
and fair decks.
My sideboard doesn't go a long way to helping with those problems. Crucible should also probably be in there.
Thanks again for your help!

[militiaman89]

Though alot of brewing, testing and tweaking i plan to ryn this version of the eldrazi deck at scg philly
4x chalice
4x thoughtknot seer
4x skyspawner
4x reality smasher
4x eldrazi displacer
3x warping wail
1x dismember
2x phyrexian metamorph
4x mox diamond
2x drowner of hope
2x umezawas jitte
2x trinisphere
The manabase is where im not to sure so far something like
4x adarkar wastes
4x eldrazi temple
3x eye of ugin
4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitors
1x seagate wreckage (card has been amazing )
1x island
1x karakas
2x tundra
1x plains
Sb will be close to
2x rest in peace (lands, dredge , reanimator , tes, )
3x containment priest( elves ,reanimator, dredge, sneak and show )
2x ratchet bomb ( elves etc..)
1x warping wail (catch all)
2x sacred ground(great against lands)
2x gilded drake (insane in mirror with displacer)
1x tsabos Web (lands, northeast high a abnormally high percebtage)
2x disenchant (painter, bloodmoon decks)

Reason i chose uw byild is due to its resistance to fight through the hate cards that will be present at scg philly. Skyspawner gives us ways to fight over a moat and usuabke with displacer. Mox diamond gives us ways to cast eldrazi ie dispacer, drowner and skyspawner. Plus drowner gives us the edge in the mirror as does displacer.

[Barook]

Though alot of brewing, testing and tweaking i plan to ryn this version of the eldrazi deck at scg philly
4x chalice
4x thoughtknot seer
4x skyspawner
4x reality smasher
4x eldrazi displacer
3x warping wail
1x dismember
2x phyrexian metamorph
4x mox diamond
2x drowner of hope
2x umezawas jitte
2x trinisphere
The manabase is where im not to sure so far something like
4x adarkar wastes
4x eldrazi temple
3x eye of ugin
4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitors
1x seagate wreckage (card has been amazing )
1x island
1x karakas
2x tundra
1x plains
Sb will be close to
2x rest in peace (lands, dredge , reanimator , tes, )
3x containment priest( elves ,reanimator, dredge, sneak and show )
2x ratchet bomb ( elves etc..)
1x warping wail (catch all)
2x sacred ground(great against lands)
2x gilded drake (insane in mirror with displacer)
1x tsabos Web (lands, northeast high a abnormally high percebtage)
2x disenchant (painter, bloodmoon decks)

Reason i chose uw byild is due to its resistance to fight through the hate cards that will be present at scg philly. Skyspawner gives us ways to fight over a moat and usuabke with displacer. Mox diamond gives us ways to cast eldrazi ie dispacer, drowner and skyspawner. Plus drowner gives us the edge in the mirror as does displacer.
MY GW version does have trouble against the Hyper Aggro version in the mirror, while doing better against the more rampy/midrangy version. Gilded Drake with Displacer really sounds like great tech. The mirror is definitely going to be relevant.

I would go with 3 RiPs in the board, though. They're also great vs Tarmogoyf decks. Not sure if cutting Thorn from the board completely is a good idea. Otherwise, the list looks rock-solid.

I'm gonna test it on Cockatrice (since I lack part of the cards on MTGO).

Edit: I just noticed you run 0 Caverns. I would try to fix that asap. It's one of the core strenghts of the deck to ignore your blue opponent.

Edit #2: First impression: Deck looks strong after 2 matches against Elves/Reanimator on Cockatrice, but 4 Moxen are way too many. I found myself mulligan to 4 twice due to horrible, mana-related starting hands.

The changes I would make, while still trying to stay true to your core. Maybe some of this input is useful to you:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Karakas

2 Mox Diamond
2 Talisman of Progress

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Skyspawner
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Drowner of Hope
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Gilded Drake
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Disenchant (could be Banishing Light? It would deal with problematic PWs and creatures, but I don't have test data on it yet)
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

[MD.Ghost]

WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32467_They-Arent-Stopping-With-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32461_The-Eldrazi-Invade-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32464_Going-Medium-Eldrazi-In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/32466_Good-Guy-Death-And-Taxes.html

It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.


Fortunately it's very clear these guys are on level 1 as far as strategizing with/against the deck. This thread, and my team in particular, are several steps beyond the thinking they are laying out.

The real advantage is that people still don't know how to play against it yet, but we know how to play against them thanks to extensive testing.

Delvis is right - SCG Stuff is only for "Hype the -Legacy-Eldrazi before SCG PHILLY" - it seems like someone want to sell more overpriced City of Traitors, Thorns, Null Rods etc... It seems, that none of the "Pro" authors really tested the Eldrazi (for Legacy!) and all the different builds (which is important if you want to understand what works well, what is an Angle of Attack besides Manadenial, what can Eldrazi do against worst Matchups etc.). I am sure, that SCG PHILLY will have a lot of Eldrazi Players that straightforward want to attack like in Modern. Some of them will do well with this simple beat down strategy, some will fall against well prepared Players (using Moat, Humility, Bridge etc.). It would be interesting too see, if enough of them are crushed from SneakShow, Gofy, or Lock Pieces, if the next level (see the discussion here) will lead to "Next Level Eldrazi" aka Builds with 1-2 Colors or at least a minor green Splash (Spirit Guides+Cavern for example) for World Breaker.

But overall i full agree with Delvis: The real advantage is that people still don't know how to play against it yet, but we know how to play against them thanks to extensive testing.

Good Luck for everyone with Eldrazi at SCG PHILLY - hope we see some nice results!


The thing is, between All is Dust and World Breaker, there are no permanents that provide safety from Eldrazi's inevitability. No moat, no True-Name Nemesis. Most they can do is stall and win before you can solve it. The only silver bullet imo is wastelocking.

Those articles are indeed a few steps behind. It's good to see Barook's list in there. The conclusion that lands is the best deck to beat Eldrazi is semi-accurate. I think Goblins is a good contender as well. That said, I will develop the processor version more as Leyline of the Void in theory should put a dent in the lands matchup and I'll continue to pilot between GW/UW/colorless until I feel more comfortable with the processor build.

As mentioned above - no permanent will be a lock for Eldrazi if you build them right (which also means: Don't count a 1off solution in a deck without cantrips), simply keep in mind: "What can i do in situation X".

@Goblins/DnT: I don't think they are better suited vs Eldrazi than DnT (afterall a matchup i don't fear). Besides Wast+Port, they only can Swarm you, removal is more or less useless vs Eldrazi (nice Pyrokinesis). I only tested the matchup once (with UW) but it was pretty brutal for Goblins. Wail kills any Lackey and a fast Smasher is hard to stop. I also good the funny situation: Opponent hard cast Sharpshooter (no haste lord), i copy it with Metamorph and shoot the Sharpshooter down with Wail in the same turn. You can have many more tools like Revoker (Vial), Jitte (very good), Displacer (3/3 body helps also) and if the field is full: All is Dust.

Sure if they start with Vial and have a dreamhand like Lackey, Port/Waste and some more good Goblins it can be a very hard task, similar to a good DnT Start - but that is not common in every game and it can also go like this: Eldrazi Start: Tomb+Chalice (no Vial :tongue:) and in this case Manadenial (without pressure) isn't the best idea, but if you don't Waste as a DnT/Goblin you can fall behind if Eldrazi goes T2 another Solland + Seer for example. So a harsh decision for your opponent. Manadenial for DnT/Goblins will only work if you can also apply some pressure. I won numerous games against hasty opponents which thought it is clever (on the draw) to T1: Waste any Eldrazi-Land, the quickly fall behind for the rest of the game, because Eldrazi (if build correctly) aren't MUD (a more fragile Manabase which higher cc stuff in hands).


I would definitely run 4x Cavern maindeck. It's your free ticket against blue decks.

Trust Barook! - 4 Caverns, every game (even with the playset) you not get Cavern online vs Blue, you will remember that this land can be a critical piece. You don't want to run into Daze/Force with Seer/Smasher, especially not if you also take Damage from Tomb.



Now my questions are:
Do i wanna play Urborg, maybe two copies? Do i wanna play 4 eye of ugin to draw it as fast as possible? Do i wanna play Wasteland?

To the creature base. I've seen a lot of list with Matter Reshaper. Have you got some testing experiences with him?
I think i wanna add him.


For a colorless Eldrazi shell i would start with the following land base:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Mishra's Factory

It leaves 1-2 more Slots (i like 25 lands) and i think Urborg is very good for colorless builds because a) it improves Eye b) it reduces Tomb Damage c) it will be work well with common "colorless" cards like: Dismember, Faerie Macabre/Leyline of the Void. I for myself would only run this build with 1 Crucible Main, because it will stabilize any config with multiple City/Eye, works well with Wastelands/Mishra and also defend you vs Manadenial. A 2nd copy at Side is also a good idea (vs Lands/Loam).

Matter Reshaper can be ok, he will shine against BGx decks, blocking Gofy, annoy Liliana etc.

Wasteland or not? Wasteland can be good in aggressive builds, that decks also play stuff like Thorn (and some of them Lodestone/Trinisphere), but Wasteland should only be used if you are ahead on the battlefield. So 3 Wastelands seems ok for me, if you also want to use Mishra (or other utility lands). While Eldrazi are need 4-5 Mana to operate well enough, most legacy decks are well-built with lots of cc 1-2 cards, which is also a reason, why a simply Gofy can be a problem.


I think colorless or green splash is probably the way to go with this deck for the time being. I've only played against it once (and I don't play this deck at all) but it strikes me that the more colors one plays, and the more colored sources one plays, the more likely one is to whiff on a T1 Chalice, Thorn, or Trinisphere.

I wouldn't run any fewer than ten lock pieces. When I played the deck I was on Storm and playing against easily one of the best players in my (admittedly small) meta, and even with a Thorn and a Chalice I still managed to combo off with Hurkyl's in game 2, and to Ad Nauseam in game 3 through Chalice on 2 and Thorn. I didn't win game 3, but that's because Ad Nauseam is a cruel mistress, not because the lock was too strong.


Trinisphere will not work well enough with Eye of Ugin and will do nothing vs SneakShow, even Elves can cast NO for the Win and as someone mentioned before: Ramping out Sphere and fall behind because your opponent simply Waste you out of the Game (Stories from MUD) are not the right direction for Eldrazi.

As far as i liked Trinisphere in Sylvan Plug (as Omnitell was Tier 1!) i would run Thorns now. Against Storm Thorn is much better, because Hate will cost the same (Decay/Hurkyl's Recall vs Trinisphere) or more (because you can stack them). While colorless Eldrazi should use Thorn Main, i see no space for so many prison elements in a GW, UW or RG build. Interestingly enough the colored builds are well prepared for the "problematic" fair matchups where Thorn isn't strong enough. I think it is fine, to run away with 12 different cards (Chalice, Seer, Wail) at Main against Combo and side in Thorn&Stuff for G2/3. With white i would recommend Thalia, because it dodges stuff like Hurkyl's Recall, beats and synergies with Karakas. As always it makes sense to split Hate cards - if everyone be prepared to kill your Prison-Artifacts.


Though alot of brewing, testing and tweaking i plan to ryn this version of the eldrazi deck at scg philly
Reason i chose uw byild is due to its resistance to fight through the hate cards that will be present at scg philly. Skyspawner gives us ways to fight over a moat and usuabke with displacer. Mox diamond gives us ways to cast eldrazi ie dispacer, drowner and skyspawner. Plus drowner gives us the edge in the mirror as does displacer.

UW Build looks good so far - very similar to the one i posted at the last pages. I would trim at least 1 maindeck slot for: Rasputin Combo OR World Breaker to avoid locks at Game 1 (at a big tournament you can always get the one opponent that play annoying stuff like Maindeck Bridge etc.)

I will try Duplicant over Gilded Drake, but i can also see the Drake as a nice tool with Displacer - both will work at Mirror, or vs other decks with big dudes. Since you are running white, karakas, seagate sacred ground i would follow Barooks advice and cut the random Tsabos Web for one more Rest in Peace. I would also use at least 1-2 Thalia/Thorn against Combo/Burn since (as i mentioned above) your UW build packs only a small amount of Prison Elements (Chalice) compared to other Eldrzai Builds.

I also like All is Dust over Bomb here, Bomb can be faster sometimes (but also painful slow sometimes) it can also kill your tokens, moxen etc. or permanents like RiP, Priest etc. - since you play City over Wastelands you can ramp better to reach the 7 Mana for All is Dust which is so good vs fair decks if they managed to stall you for a while. It wrecks, Moon, Planewalker, Humility, Mentor - simply all together. The only case i would like Bomb is vs Empty the Warrens (Belcher, TES, ANT), because it means "GG". Remember that most opponents will use Artifact Hate vs Eldrazi (Chalice, Thorn etc.) so most decks will be prepared to snipe a Bomb on the field anyway.

[Barook]

I don't know why people think Goblins is that troublesome aside from their mana denial. I just played against this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Frogmite) and went 2-1 (might have even won G2 if I had played differently). And my opponent had T1 Vial into mana denial every game. TKS hurts them since it's a roadblock that can also take crucial pieces from their hand.

What we should do think about is better SB tech against the mirror. I was destroyed by Mono C aggro thrice in a row last league. Finding good, fast, one-sided hate seems difficult, though.

[MD.Ghost]

What we should do think about is better SB tech against the mirror. I was destroyed by Mono C aggro thrice in a row last league. Finding good, fast, one-sided hate seems difficult, though.

Welcome on the other side :laugh:

Since you play white, as i mentioned before, i would try stuff like: Ajani Steadfast or Worship to buy enough time to get Displacer+Priest/Duplicant online

I think Wurmcoil Engine can also be a huge roadblock, but 6 mana can be problematic sometimes, once Endbringer (aka Backup for colorless Eldrazi) is online it is also not the right answer.

The colorless Aggro Version can struggle vs Permanents (we talked about it^^), key is get them online fast enough (the reason i like cc4) and prevent the pick from Seer (use more than one copy and/or decrease the CC of your answers). White can also offer stuff like Ghostly Prison (with Mox+Solland castable Turn1), which can also help against other creaturebased matchups. Thanks to our Sollands/Mana ramp, you can deploy all the cards faster than other decks (which is important against Aggro).

As you said before - green can use a nice Beast which negates more or less 2 Smasher hits (5 life + 5/3 Body + Token) and can take over the game with Displacer, but first i would try the white solutions. If you don't like permanents you can also use various instants to buy some time or use the stack for combat tricks:
Rest for the Weary
Humbl
Reprisal
Dawn Charm
Valorous Stance
Feed the Clan
Moment's Peace
Tangle
Winds of Qal Sisma
and many more - some of them will also work vs Gofy&friends). Since it should be common that both Eldrazi side out Chalice, Thorns, All is Dust etc (normal useless for the mirror) you can also jedi mindtrick them and play stuff like Path to Exile :laugh: With colors it should be easy to find something (see modern). The good news are, that our own GW build can't be locked out from the same stuff.

[hofzge]

Delvis is right - SCG Stuff is only for "Hype the -Legacy-Eldrazi before SCG PHILLY" - it seems like someone want to sell more overpriced City of Traitors, Thorns, Null Rods etc... It seems, that none of the "Pro" authors really tested the Eldrazi (for Legacy!) and all the different builds (which is important if you want to understand what works well, what is an Angle of Attack besides Manadenial, what can Eldrazi do against worst Matchups etc.). I am sure, that SCG PHILLY will have a lot of Eldrazi Players that straightforward want to attack like in Modern. Some of them will do well with this simple beat down strategy, some will fall against well prepared Players (using Moat, Humility, Bridge etc.). It would be interesting too see, if enough of them are crushed from SneakShow, Gofy, or Lock Pieces, if the next level (see the discussion here) will lead to "Next Level Eldrazi" aka Builds with 1-2 Colors or at least a minor green Splash (Spirit Guides+Cavern for example) for World Breaker.



As far as i liked Trinisphere in Sylvan Plug (as Omnitell was Tier 1!) i would run Thorns now. Against Storm Thorn is much better, because Hate will cost the same (Decay/Hurkyl's Recall vs Trinisphere) or more (because you can stack them). While colorless Eldrazi should use Thorn Main, i see no space for so many prison elements in a GW, UW or RG build. Interestingly enough the colored builds are well prepared for the "problematic" fair matchups where Thorn isn't strong enough. I think it is fine, to run away with 12 different cards (Chalice, Seer, Wail) at Main against Combo and side in Thorn&Stuff for G2/3. With white i would recommend Thalia, because it dodges stuff like Hurkyl's Recall, beats and synergies with Karakas. As always it makes sense to split Hate cards - if everyone be prepared to kill your Prison-Artifacts.




UW Build looks good so far - very similar to the one i posted at the last pages. I would trim at least 1 maindeck slot for: Rasputin Combo OR World Breaker to avoid locks at Game 1 (at a big tournament you can always get the one opponent that play annoying stuff like Maindeck Bridge etc.)


Why something like this:
4x Adarkar Wastes
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Chalice of the Void
3x City of Traitors
2x Drowner of Hope
4x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Eldrazi Skyspawner
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
4x Mox Diamond
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Reality Smasher
2x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Warping Wail
2x World Breaker

SB:
1x All Is Dust
2x Containment Priest
1x Disenchant
1x Dismember
1x Gilded Drake
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I don't particularly like Jitte, as it takes very long to play and equip it and I would rather play Wails and Dismembers against Elves or Goblins.



Trust Barook! - 4 Caverns, every game (even with the playset) you not get Cavern online vs Blue, you will remember that this land can be a critical piece. You don't want to run into Daze/Force with Seer/Smasher, especially not if you also take Damage from Tomb.


Totally! This makes one avenue of interaction totally moot, while at the same time fixing your mana!



Wasteland or not? Wasteland can be good in aggressive builds, that decks also play stuff like Thorn (and some of them Lodestone/Trinisphere), but Wasteland should only be used if you are ahead on the battlefield. So 3 Wastelands seems ok for me, if you also want to use Mishra (or other utility lands). While Eldrazi are need 4-5 Mana to operate well enough, most legacy decks are well-built with lots of cc 1-2 cards, which is also a reason, why a simply Gofy can be a problem.


I agree if you have a World Breaker - otherwise the Wastelands seem necessary even if just to kill Maze of Ith.



Trinisphere will not work well enough with Eye of Ugin and will do nothing vs SneakShow, even Elves can cast NO for the Win and as someone mentioned before: Ramping out Sphere and fall behind because your opponent simply Waste you out of the Game (Stories from MUD) are not the right direction for Eldrazi.


I ran Trinisphere in the earlier versions where I also ran 3 Eyes of Ugin and then you are somehow forced to use Moxen to a) have them turn 1 and b) to get actual mana from Eyes of Ugin. The switch to Thorn is also good because you can easily run the Thorn turn 1.



I will try Duplicant over Gilded Drake, but i can also see the Drake as a nice tool with Displacer - both will work at Mirror, or vs other decks with big dudes. Since you are running white, karakas, seagate sacred ground i would follow Barooks advice and cut the random Tsabos Web for one more Rest in Peace. I would also use at least 1-2 Thalia/Thorn against Combo/Burn since (as i mentioned above) your UW build packs only a small amount of Prison Elements (Chalice) compared to other Eldrzai Builds.


I would even go further and cut some Rest in Peace for Surgical extractions. There are 2 people locally that play lands and Rest in Peace is not that good against them - you will eventually die to the combo and if they can wastelock you, you never get to :1::w:. Also against the fast Reanimator or All spells grave decks RIP is just too slow. And I think that Surgical is better than Faerie, as it can e.g. exile all Griselbrands, all Infernal Tutors or all Life from the Loams.



I also like All is Dust over Bomb here, Bomb can be faster sometimes (but also painful slow sometimes) it can also kill your tokens, moxen etc. or permanents like RiP, Priest etc. - since you play City over Wastelands you can ramp better to reach the 7 Mana for All is Dust which is so good vs fair decks if they managed to stall you for a while. It wrecks, Moon, Planewalker, Humility, Mentor - simply all together. The only case i would like Bomb is vs Empty the Warrens (Belcher, TES, ANT), because it means "GG". Remember that most opponents will use Artifact Hate vs Eldrazi (Chalice, Thorn etc.) so most decks will be prepared to snipe a Bomb on the field anyway.

How about splitting it 2 Bombs and 1 All is Dust? The Bombs are a necessary evil specifically against Empty the Warrens.

[SirGalahad]

As i bought into Eldrazi for Modern i wanted to give them a try at the local Legacy FNM today. Missing some cards i'm going to play the following:

4 Endless One
2 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thougth Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Warping Wail
1 Dismember

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Urbrog, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
2 All is Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Dismember
1 Waping Wail
2 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 ?

Keycards i'm missing are 2 Thorn and 2 Mimic.

Will post my results over the weekend.

[apple713]

Thragtusk is a card i loved from my old Nic Fit decks, but i think the "Gain Life" Idea lead to other cards. Thragtusk needs Green and while the deck can support many white cards thanks to 2-3 Karakas, green is a little bit harder (World Breaker profits from Cavern). So ok you can set Cavern for Beast, but this is only wise if you find a 2nd copy of Cavern (and your opponent don't Waste the first). The combo with Displacer is nice, but if i would try to find room (and mana) for a green card, my first pick would be Sylvan Library over KGrip, Thragtusk, Rec.Sage etc. Sylvan Library is perfect for a Mid-Lategame build like GW or RG Eldrazi. Sadly i can't find the right spot for it, but i think it can be a huge deal for consistency and it is more or less a threat on its own.

If you aim for "gain Life" you can try Instants like Feed the Clan or Rest for the Weary but i think the best options from white are: Worship and Ajani Steadfast - while Worship can be a no brainer (vs other Eldrazi etc.), Ajani offers a aggressive way for UW, his +1 will be quite good with Smasher/Seer and his other Ability can easily pump the Swarm (Skyspawner/Drowner + Displacer)

Stoneforge Mystic was at my very first White Eldrazi Sketch, with Displacer and with Matter Reshaper (!) - so yes it can work, but i would only use 3 + 1 Skull +1 Jitte, this leaves the GW Build with: Keep 1 Conduit (as a tutor) or keep 1 Metamorph (with Stoneforge and BSkull in mind) - but with the cut of Eldrazi i don't see the 3rd Eye as a good choice at Barooks Build. I would only use 2, because they will do nothing for many non Eldrazi cards at Mid-Lategame Builds - aim for as much consistency as possible.



@ thragtusk, if you are looking to gain life as a plan B you are probably in a losing position anyways.

@ Worship, this is good vs fair decks but does almost nothing vs combo. ANT / Sneak attack being the main offenders here. Emrakul makes you sacrifice it, and ant is loss of life.

@ Ajani, if there ever was a deck that could use him this seems like it. It helps on the life gain issue and makes the deck more aggressive but without a creature he's weak.

@SFM, everyone likes this card because it tutor's generates advantage but it's kinda slow. If you are running out of threats then this can help get a recursive batter skull but it more or less commits you to a certain line of play. I would imagine you want something more impactful when you cast it.

[Delvis]

You guys like my new avatar? lol


As i bought into Eldrazi for Modern i wanted to give them a try at the local Legacy FNM today. Missing some cards i'm going to play the following:

[snip]

Keycards i'm missing are 2 Thorn and 2 Mimic.

Will post my results over the weekend.

Can you do me a favor? Can you play 4 Crystal Vein? I would say shave a couple lands that you have plenty of or are already cemented in the deck.

If you play 4 Vein you'll draw them more often and you'll be able to tell us how good it is. It'd be good to have the data point.

Edit: also welcome to the forums and the best format in Magic and etc.

[Fox]

Can you do me a favor? Can you play 4 Crystal Vein? I would say shave a couple lands that you have plenty of or are already cemented in the deck.

When I brought up crystal vein pages ago, the requisite deck construction was as well: maindeck crucible and winter orbs (you get 6 mana per turn, they get 1). This probably is more indicative of the direction the [colorless] eldrazi deck will go in legacy:
-heavy focus on 2 mana lock pieces that are turn 1'd and repeated in the case that you are wastelanded away from t2 TKS
-eldrazi (other than the TKS core of the deck) being largely cut, and with them Eldrazi Temples; replaced by veins
-revokers into the main
-slow the midgame with cards like winter orbs, and reach inevitability engine with eye

Anyways that's my prediction for the legacy deck, where mimic/temple/moxen (this one might stick around)/monoliths/1-2 of the smashers eventually go the way of Ill-Gotten Gains (old storm card, if memory serves). It isn't simply run Crystal Vein x4 and tell us how it goes, there's a package that goes with it (lest we should be misleading). Unless SirGalahad wants to make that pretty sizable leap forward (if my theory-crafting is on point) in his eldrazi list, I think 1-2 vein main and sideboard crucible will be much more successful for his list as submitted. The more immediate concern I see with the deck is 4x Matter Reshaper in a chalice list, making that 3x revoker/1x additional thorn would instantly improve the decks performance.

[iostream]

Lejay's take on stompy: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379769#online

2 Wastes! The idea just sounded too awful to me in the past, but maybe I've underestimated it?

[Delvis]

When I brought up crystal vein pages ago, the requisite deck construction was as well: maindeck crucible and winter orbs (you get 6 mana per turn, they get 1). This probably is more indicative of the direction the [colorless] eldrazi deck will go in legacy:
-heavy focus on 2 mana lock pieces that are turn 1'd and repeated in the case that you are wastelanded away from t2 TKS
-eldrazi (other than the TKS core of the deck) being largely cut, and with them Eldrazi Temples; replaced by veins
-revokers into the main
-slow the midgame with cards like winter orbs, and reach inevitability engine with eye

Anyways that's my prediction for the legacy deck, where mimic/temple/moxen (this one might stick around)/monoliths/1-2 of the smashers eventually go the way of Ill-Gotten Gains (old storm card, if memory serves). It isn't simply run Crystal Vein x4 and tell us how it goes, there's a package that goes with it (lest we should be misleading). Unless SirGalahad wants to make that pretty sizable leap forward (if my theory-crafting is on point) in his eldrazi list, I think 1-2 vein main and sideboard crucible will be much more successful for his list as submitted. The more immediate concern I see with the deck is 4x Matter Reshaper in a chalice list, making that 3x revoker/1x additional thorn would instantly improve the decks performance.

I'm not saying his list is going to be optimized. He's sort of taking a pile as it is. It's FNM after all, so not much is on the line, here. It doesn't really benefit him or us if he optimizes his list for an FNM when he could be using it as an opportunity to test things out.

I'm just asking him to run 4 Vein because he'll draw it more often and see it in more situations where it has the opportunity to prove itself - or fail. So it is as simple as "run 4 and tell us how the card is." If he makes the theory jump you're talking about, it won't be very useful information, because that introduces too many variables to the experiment.

[Barook]

Sunyveil's article that was opted from SCG since there were too many yesterday (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vrt-ta6B11ONJS8NxFHuQgdw_CGkkqoVuhGpdtdYcPA/edit). He has a pretty good track record with variants of his lists (several 5-0s), so he knows what he's talking about.

I like his latest MD build (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379766#online), although I would probably still replace the Crystal Vein for the 4th Cavern for more uncounterable goodness and one more white source for Displacer.

[MD.Ghost]

Lejay's take on stompy: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379769#online

2 Wastes! The idea just sounded too awful to me in the past, but maybe I've underestimated it?


Sunyveil's article that was opted from SCG since there were too many yesterday (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vrt-ta6B11ONJS8NxFHuQgdw_CGkkqoVuhGpdtdYcPA/edit). He has a pretty good track record with variants of his lists (several 5-0s), so he knows what he's talking about.

I like his latest MD build (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379766#online), although I would probably still replace the Crystal Vein for the 4th Cavern for more uncounterable goodness and one more white source for Displacer.

Nice too see so many different builds work well. I think afterall it is a matter of playstyles, Lejay run Thorn only at his Sideboard (as I do), Sunyveil is sucessful with Thorn and Lodestone(!) Main.

We will see if any Version do well at the next SCG and I would like to see this deck as fast as possible as an established one. Speed it up guys :cool:

[iostream]

Sunyveil's article that was opted from SCG since there were too many yesterday (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vrt-ta6B11ONJS8NxFHuQgdw_CGkkqoVuhGpdtdYcPA/edit). He has a pretty good track record with variants of his lists (several 5-0s), so he knows what he's talking about.

I like his latest MD build (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379766#online), although I would probably still replace the Crystal Vein for the 4th Cavern for more uncounterable goodness and one more white source for Displacer.It's an interesting take, but I disagree with his opinion that the "standard choices" are just obviously wrong and find his dismissive attitude to be rather counterproductive.

For example, take Endless One, which he calls "ludicrous". I absolutely love casting it for X=2 off of Eye. I've won many games going turn 1 Mimic, Endless One, Endless One or some variation thereof because putting 4+ power on turn 1 split over 2+ bodies is hard for any deck to deal with if you have any kind of follow up play. It's just a great tempo play. At later stages of the game, the fact that all our fast mana pays for Endless One makes him reliably bigger than everything that any fair deck can present at every spot on the curve. Against unfair decks, you can set him at X=4 or 5 in the first few turns of the game and just clock them while you hold up Warping Wail or cast other spheres.

The basic difference is that Sunyvail wants to play more individually powerful cards like Lodestone Golem at the cost of making many hands clunky and susceptible to one-for-ones and land disruption. For instance, he will often be unable to cast his threats if he gets aggressively Wastelanded because he plays more expensive creatures compared to normal lists. This is not right or wrong, it's just different and a play style choice. On the other hand, when you play Endless One, Matter Reshaper, and Umezawa's Jitte, you don't play 13 maindeck sphere effects because your plan is to just out-tempo your opponent, not completely lock them out the game. The advantage is that you are never at any risk of locking yourself out, you are more resilient to cheap disruption, and one-for-one removal is generally bad against you. The disadvantage is that you don't really have inevitability and you have to work to close the game early on.

To illustrate, it's telling that he lists Delver as one of his deck's more challenging matchups, whereas in my testing, Delver has been highly favorable. This is because any Delver pilot would gladly pay two or three mana to Bolt a Lodestone Golem, whereas they would feel pretty bad using it on Matter Reshaper. In fact, they'd most likely feel bad about Bolting an Endless One, given that such a play will either be tempo negative even at 1 mana when Endless One is cast for X=2 off of Eye, or the Delver player will require a second card to actually remove the Endless One which generates a two-for-one for the Eldrazi pilot. More generally, versus tempo decks, when you have so many plays that you can make off of one or two lands, getting Wastelanded or Dazed 1-2 times early on does not break you. On the other hand, I suspect his deck has a much easier time against decks like Nic Fit or Four-Color Loam because you are at no risk of dying quickly in those matchups, they have no advantageous way of addressing Lodestone Golem, and his cards pack a much more effective late-game punch.

[bruizar]

Went 3-1 during the modern FNM with a pile (RG Eldrazi-tron). Lost only to UW due to uw drawing faster hands + curving out perfectly on the play with turn 1 Endless turn 2 TKS turn 3 Smasher, poor mulligans on my side and just being too slow. Though I did beat infect which is a fast deck itself.

It seems like in modern it doesn't matter what you bring, as long as it has Eldrazis in it. My sideboard anti-eldrazi tech was Razarmane Masticore hoping to bolt displacers, mimic, skyspawners and endless ones and first striking Reality Smashers (and drowners if they dont have things to tap) (I could off-set the card disadvantage with lategame Kozilek) but it was TKS'd out of my hand. I also tried Batterskull and it did win me a few games, but never against Eldrazis. Like I said, it was a pile, but it still worked because crazy draws happened.

My most insane turn was Kozilek (countered) but drew six and played 2 Thought Knot Seers the same turn. That ended real quick, followed by Eye of Ugin activation into Reality Smasher for an attack with 2 reality smasher 2 TKS.

World Breaker again broke some worlds, with reach, the high toughness and the cast trigger each being highly relevant (being able to block Restoration Angel and exiling celestial colonnade).

[janluis1]

I'm here playing the deck at BOM in Madrid.
Miracles decks are packing moat main deck and ruination and humility out from the sideboard

[Barook]

I'm here playing the deck at BOM in Madrid.
Miracles decks are packing moat main deck and ruination and humility out from the sideboard
Moat and Humility sound like a job for World Breaker. :laugh:

I fail to see how Ruination is better than From the Ashes in Miracles. Probably they didn't get the memo yet.

[Fox]

Moat and Humility sound like a job for World Breaker. :laugh:

I fail to see how Ruination is better than From the Ashes in Miracles. Probably they didn't get the memo yet.
Fear not barook, if there's a card that doesn't help them win the game, miracles will eventually find it given enough time. Price of Progress can't get hit by warping wail, but the fact that casting it might result in a win means miracles won't run it.

[janluis1]

I ve just lost against shardless bug. Although I feel is a draw dependent matchup I feel is our 3 worse pairings among creature based decks

[darkgh0st]

I'm here playing the deck at BOM in Madrid.
Miracles decks are packing moat main deck and ruination and humility out from the sideboard

Ulamog when using list with Karakas. It is a control match up after all.

[janluis1]

I have done top 32 at BOM Madrid, quite a few Eldrazi players here. One of them made top 8. I will post my list in a couple of days

[e.talpa]

I fail to see how Ruination is better than From the Ashes in Miracles. Probably they didn't get the memo yet.

I for one am running a list with seven wastes at the price of giving away wastelands and mishras in fear of blood moon and denial. With my build I would be very happy if my opponent played ashes instead of ruination.

Eager to see the list of Madrid top8er.

[Barook]

I for one am running a list with seven wastes at the price of giving away wastelands and mishras in fear of blood moon and denial. With my build I would be very happy if my opponent played ashes instead of ruination.

Eager to see the list of Madrid top8er.
Don't you lose alot of raw power when you just run basics instead of utility lands?

I could see it as way to improve the burn match-up. :wink:

Although running our own Ruination/From the Ashes in the board with the right support sounds hilarious.

Edit: On second thought, without having to jump through the hoops of running red, white has access to Armaggeddon, be it SB or otherwise. Not sure what match-ups it could improve that need improving and it would make the use of CoW mandatory. While Thorn/Golem with mana-denial sounds interesting, it would also make Armageddon ridiculously expensive. A less mana-intensive approach would be Conduit into Sundering Titan (bonus points for being a Golem like Lodestone for excess Cavern, being castable of Conduit for :6:, having devestating synergy with Displacer and being taxed by neither Lodestone (Conduit is, though) nor Thorn.) If you leave out Displacer, it's also a completely colorless approach. I guess that would require the additional use of Grim Monoliths to be reliable, for better or worse.

Edit #2: First, very rough list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
2 flex slots (Karakas, Factory, Ghost Quarter, whatever you like)

4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Conduit of Ruin
1 World Breaker
1 Sundering Titan

4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[talpa]

Meanwhile in Philly (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3715_day_2_metagame_breakdown_.html), Eldrazi is the most played deck at day2 (actually, even to the sum of all delver decks), followed by lands and miracles.

[bruizar]

Interestingly, 8 lands decks, 5 DNT decks and 7 miracle decks. I bet lands and DNT slaughtered many Eldrazi along the way to day 2.

3 Enchantress decks is also noteworthy.

[Fox]

3 Enchantress decks is also noteworthy.
Things like this happen when people forget their notion thieves and teferi's realms. A pretty miserable matchup for eldrazi I'd think; you'd need to cast ulamog 2x to get solitary confinement/elephant grass through the Sterling Groves.

[bruizar]

Things like this happen when people forget their notion thieves and teferi's realms. A pretty miserable matchup for eldrazi I'd think; you'd need to cast ulamog 2x to get solitary confinement/elephant grass through the Sterling Groves.

Enchantress is a very good meta choice. It's very nice that this deck gets some tournament results; as its usually just a fringe competitor at best.

[Barook]

It seems like Dismember is the tech of choice to deal with the Eldrazi mirror, alongside Jitte and Endbringer.

That's good to know for the future.

[Fox]

It seems like Dismember is the tech of choice to deal with the Eldrazi mirror, alongside Jitte and Endbringer.
That's good to know for the future.
Always remember what happens when one eldrazi player has equipment and moxen, and the other one has no artifacts with activated abilities and null rods. Dismember seems solid (but painful with tombs) and Endbringer is probably at least a 2x for maindeck's inevitability.

[talpa]

Also remember When a man with a gun meets a man with a Winchester, the man with the gun is a dead man.

Meanwhile, a certain New and Developmental deck is in final at SCG Philadelphia Open :)

Gerry Thompson, 2nd:

4 Eldrazi Mimic
1 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
1 Warping Wail

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 All Is Dust


Harlan Firer, 8th:

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Winter Orb
2 Endbringer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail


Steven Shervin, 9th:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
1 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Trinisphere
3 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Endbringer
1 Warping Wail


Brad Carpenter, 15th:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Winter Orb
2 Endbringer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail


Andrew Tenjum, 21st:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Winter Orb
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spatial Contortion


Aaron Webster, 22nd:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember

Sideboard
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Dismember
4 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 All Is Dust


Greg Gentile, 26th:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Wastes
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Trinisphere
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail

Sideboard
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Trinisphere
2 Spellskite
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust

[RhoxWarMonk]

Also remember When a man with a gun meets a man with a Winchester, the man with the gun is a dead man.

Meanwhile, a certain New and Developmental deck is in final at SCG Philadelphia Open :)

He ended up in 2nd, here's his brew

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99286

I'm still not sold on the Mox Diamonds but obviously he had great results with them.

[conboy31]

He ended up in 2nd, here's his brew

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99286

I'm still not sold on the Mox Diamonds but obviously he had great results with them.

From the top 8 profiles on scg:
"Is the Legacy Eldrazi deck for real? How do you beat it?"
"Yes! If I built my deck well, you couldn't!"

Within a few days he will likely write or talk about what md and sb tweaks he would make. I will be keeping an eye out for his insight.

[Barook]

From the top 8 profiles on scg:
"Is the Legacy Eldrazi deck for real? How do you beat it?"
"Yes! If I built my deck well, you couldn't!"

Within a few days he will likely write or talk about what md and sb tweaks he would make. I will be keeping an eye out for his insight.
3 MD Dismember is probably a good call since it trumps the mirror and could get rid of annoying creatures like 4/5 Goyfs or Anglers, among other things. I like that he cut down MD Wails. The flexibility is nice, but often not enough. I found myself either with no relevant sorceries to counter or stuff like a flipped Delver beating my ass. All while I sadly stare at a freshly drawn Wail.

[Dziga Murnau]

Shouldn't this deck move to the Established section? Looks like in a while it will be even in DtB one.

[Dice_Box]

It will be once a deck is hammered out. We are still in the building phase. Optimal lists are not yet known and a primer is not yet written. Once that's done I will move it over.

[hofzge]

I think there are now more or less 2 variants:
The colorless variant played by many at Philly and a "colored devoid" variant being W/UW/GW or Bant centered around Displacer and cutting Mimics and/or Endless Ones.

The variant with Lodestone Golems is a more extreme version of colorless. Most decks mentioned here can be put into either of the categories.

[bruizar]

I think there are now more or less 2 variants:
The colorless variant played by many at Philly and a "colored devoid" variant being W/UW/GW or Bant centered around Displacer and cutting Mimics and/or Endless Ones.

The variant with Lodestone Golems is a more extreme version of colorless. Most decks mentioned here can be put into either of the categories.

The philly variants were based mostly off of Kevin Toolan's Eldrazi Shops article http://southfloridamagic.com/the-evolution-of-eldrazi-shops/
I believe after the article, Toolan cut the trinis for 2 Jittes (first for a sword and a jitte, then cut the sword for more jitte), but it seems that the players at philly cut the wails for thorns and reduced the endbringer count.

[talpa]

It will be once a deck is hammered out. We are still in the building phase. Optimal lists are not yet known and a primer is not yet written. Once that's done I will move it over.

Someone should write a primer, that's right.

As for the building phase, I disagree. It seems to me that it's quite usual to have different takes on an established archetype. Let's put aside for a while colored versions, the core of the colorless eldrazi is quite known. Of course there are different choices... do you want to run trinispheres, or thorn, or even move them to the side? Do you want to play maindeck wail, dismembers, equipment?

But is the difference between European Version of Miracle (4 ponder) and Losset's one (creatures) any less different?
Are Death and Taxes "free" slots less different than our ones? (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Crusader, Vryn, Serra, ecc).

It's possibile that a "better" choice emerges, but the deck performed well with many takes... at some point it becomes personal choices on the metagame you expect and your personal style (more controllish, more aggro, etc)

[MD.Ghost]

Someone should write a primer, that's right.

As for the building phase, I disagree. It seems to me that it's quite usual to have different takes on an established archetype. Let's put aside for a while colored versions, the core of the colorless eldrazi is quite known. Of course there are different choices... do you want to run trinispheres, or thorn, or even move them to the side? Do you want to play maindeck wail, dismembers, equipment?

But is the difference between European Version of Miracle (4 ponder) and Losset's one (creatures) any less different?
Are Death and Taxes "free" slots less different than our ones? (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Crusader, Vryn, Serra, ecc).

It's possibile that a "better" choice emerges, but the deck performed well with many takes... at some point it becomes personal choices on the metagame you expect and your personal style (more controllish, more aggro, etc)

Right - see Nic Fit with all the different versions or even Death & Taxes with the common white based stuff can transform into Imperial Taxes (RW) which don't need different Threads. The Core Elements for Eldrazi will be the same.

---------------
Fun Fact: I saw a creative "colorless" BR Brew at our local shop yesterday. It contains Dusk Stalker(!) and Lodestone Golem for a full 20 (Smasher, Stalker, Golem, Endbringer) Big Beater package to support Mimic - notable with 8 Haste "right into your Face" Boys. Various Decks struggled against this onslaught.

[Dice_Box]

Someone should write a primer, that's right.

As for the building phase, I disagree. It seems to me that it's quite usual to have different takes on an established archetype. Let's put aside for a while colored versions, the core of the colorless eldrazi is quite known. Of course there are different choices... do you want to run trinispheres, or thorn, or even move them to the side? Do you want to play maindeck wail, dismembers, equipment?

But is the difference between European Version of Miracle (4 ponder) and Losset's one (creatures) any less different?
Are Death and Taxes "free" slots less different than our ones? (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Crusader, Vryn, Serra, ecc).

It's possibile that a "better" choice emerges, but the deck performed well with many takes... at some point it becomes personal choices on the metagame you expect and your personal style (more controllish, more aggro, etc)

If you can give me a Primer, with the options on what should and should not be in the deck, a writeup of all relevant matches you can expect to face and a future direction of the deck I will move it. (Or you could post it right into Established and skip the middleman) The thing is, right now we are at the spark stage. Granted nothing really changed for U/R Delver after that so I am happy to admit I am being too defensive, but right now there is a spread of options and of counts in decklists.

Also, you want to run Thorns, the 3Ball shuts off Eye and that seems stupid. The only deck that is really going to punish you for that switch badly is Elves and Chalice is hell on them. I guess there is DnT too, but they are going to likely lock you under your own 3Ball and fuck you if you draw wrong or just play a Vial if they draw right.

[talpa]

If you can give me a Primer (...)
Also, you want to run Thorns, the 3Ball shuts off Eye and that seems stupid.

Please forgive me if I couldn't explain myself (english is not my first language): I completeley agree with you, but I don't feel adequate to write the primer myselft.

Also for the second part, I agree with you. I run thorns and given the frequency in which I even board them out I am considering moving them to sideboard. But. Someone which I really estimate as a good mud player is playing trinis in Eldrazi, and someone who was capable of doing top8 in SCG Philly also ran them, so clearly it's not as stupid as it seems, meaning, it's obviously a big downside, but someone can legitimately consider the trade-off with the upsides.

[bruizar]

I may be able to write a primer (depending on time this week). If anyone wants to add certain content please feel free to message the information to me.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Please forgive me if I couldn't explain myself (english is not my first language): I completeley agree with you, but I don't feel adequate to write the primer myselft.

Also for the second part, I agree with you. I run thorns and given the frequency in which I even board them out I am considering moving them to sideboard. But. Someone which I really estimate as a good mud player is playing trinis in Eldrazi, and someone who was capable of doing top8 in SCG Philly also ran them, so clearly it's not as stupid as it seems, meaning, it's obviously a big downside, but someone can legitimately consider the trade-off with the upsides.

I found that running Trinisphere significantly worsened my Storm matchup just because I couldn't cast it turn one. There was a very real chance of me having to pass or play something irrelevant turn one and then get my sphere Duress'd (I then died the next turn). Thorn alleviates this issue.

[Gheizen64]

Primer or not, this is the list i've been playing now:


4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dismember

4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory


SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Warping Wail
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Dismember


It is a fairly stock list, but some explanations of my choices:

- 26 lands, no accelleration pieces. After discarding diamond relatively early, i also decided to discard SSG and gemstone cavern. Gemstone was just literally unplayable as a 2-for-1 against wasteland, and SSG made our threat density too low for my tastes for what it gave us in exchange. Upping the land count to 26, increasing the number of utility lands (wastelands, factories) make the deck a little bit slower especially in the ability to deploy a T1 lockpiece, but increase greatly the resiliance to wasteland and decrease significantly the number of times where cards get stuck in your hand. With no SSG, you also increase the number of actual cards you are playing. I think urborg is extremely important to avoid killing yourself too much vs delver lists. Delver lists , grixis especially, which run delver, dazes, anglers , pyromancers and strix are a big problem for this deck and i think are extremely well positioned in the meta, being able to beat most other delver lists (thanks to DRS/angler) and going even with eldrazi lists. 26 lands with no accelleration pieces also allow you to play both wastelands (important in the mirror, vs combo and lands) and factories (good to close out games especially with jitte), and to activate eye of ugin the most often over every other configuration of 24-25 lands + accellerators (with the exception of lists playing monolith which are just wrong imho).
SSG may still be actually right though, especially if you expect a lot of dazes.

- 1 dismember, 3 warping wail: dismember is a really good card in this deck especially as it cost just :1: which you often can't use for anything else. The big problem is that 4 life AND tomb is a pretty big deal, and the MU where you want to dismember things are often teh MUs where you also care about life totals (vs anglers, delvers, and other eldrazis). I'm honestly tempted to try something else, but in colorless that's hard. The 3-1 split is the one i'm testing right now, but 2-2 or even 3-2 could be correct depending on the meta and other things. Other possibilities for removal playable in this deck are Wasteland stranglers and Bearer of Silence. The Wails are removal first, sorcery counters seconds, and jitte carrier third. I play 3 because i think that the meta will see an increase in sorcery spells, with combo moving toward SnT and tempo playing more Painful Thruths.

- 2 umezawa's jitte: this is considered part of the removal suite and why i feel comfortable with only 1 dismember. At 2 mana it can come down with a single land, and if it connect even once it will probably win you the game vs delver lists, D&T, elves and whatsnot. Having factories mean it is a much more live card vs a deck like miracle. You never want to see 2, and you often don't want to see even a single one, but it's still a card that is really powerful in mirrors and fair creature decks. At 26 lands, you often can animate and equips factories more easily than 24 or 25 land lists with moxens.

- 3 Revokers, 2 Endbringers: those are the usual 4-5 flex creature slots. Revokers usually name Tops (and get removed fast) or DRS (and often get removed just as fast) or SFM/batterskull (and i feel this is the best card you can name especially after chalice) , but they are still a source of disruption that can help you a lot when your opponents are low on answers. I play 3 because i almost never want to see 2 of those as they are good as a side-dish but not as a main source of board damage. The 2 Endbringers are something that i still don't really like and side out in most MUs, but they are a concession to the many players i've seen play the deck and found Endbringer amazing in a lot of games. I'm also expecting the meta to go toward Show and Tell more heavily and Endbringers is possibly the best maindeckable card vs SnT decks. With 26 lands, you almost never have problems playing him either.

- 3 Thorn of Amethyst instead of 4: my reasoning was that i'd rather have 1 thorn and 1 warping wail than 2 thorn in my games, especially against cards like Stoneforge mystic, show and tell, or terminus. This may not be correct, and +1 thorn -1 wail may be more correct. Time will tell if the clunkyness of having to leave mana open is worth the additional versatility and better option a wail offer over the 4th thorn.

- Sideboard choices: 6 graveyard hate cards that cost 0, 4 of which can be played on T0. Extraction would be such a good card, but in too many MUs you want both chalice and grave hate (reanimator, lands) so i don't think it's a viable alternative, especially considering lands.
The 2 duplicant are here for SnT decks which i believe will get more played as answer to both this deck and land decks, but are also a card that can be played in other slow MUs and remove possibly cards like Marit Lage, Anglers, Goyfs and KotRs, whereas Ashen Riders is unplayable out of hand. This is obviously wrong if SnT lists are more of the Omnitell variant as duplicant does nothing there.

The rest of the sideboard is pretty self-explanatory. 2 more dismember for the mirror and decks with goyfs/anglers, 2 ratchet bombs 1 more wail for delver /pyromancer decks , with added utility against combo (EtW and countering sorceries in general). 1 More revoker vs SFM/vial/top/DRS/mana critters decks, the 4th thorn vs combo and heavy non-creature spell decks.

[Finn]

Folks. Kudos on your excellent showing this weekend.

I have been brainstorming proper hate. I'm hoping to get some insight from your perspective. It may be helpful for you to hear from mine. Maybe.

I am thinking Ensnaring Bridge mostly because it seems to work well in D+T and dodges the vast majority of your hate. Really, just Ratchet Bomb. It is proactive, so that is kinda better against Thought-Knot Seer. Thorns make it more, but I bet you pull the Thorns against D+T. Thoughts?

Also, Hall of Gemstone seems like a strong lock. Maybe for Elves, hitting you on turn 2. You can All is Dust that one though, and it is really narrow hate.

[Gheizen64]

Folks. Kudos on your excellent showing this weekend.

I have been brainstorming proper hate. I'm hoping to get some insight from your perspective. It may be helpful for you to hear from mine. Maybe.

I am thinking Ensnaring Bridge mostly because it seems to work well in D+T and dodges the vast majority of your hate. Really, just Ratchet Bomb. It is proactive, so that is kinda better against Thought-Knot Seer. Thorns make it more, but I bet you pull the Thorns against D+T. Thoughts?

Also, Hall of Gemstone seems like a strong lock. Maybe for Elves, hitting you on turn 2. You can All is Dust that one though, and it is really narrow hate.

Baleful Strix and Delve creatures are a significant problem for this deck. As well as KotR fetching stupid lands (mazes, tabernacles, wastelands etc...)

Ensnaring bridge is probably one of the best hate card. Ghostly prison is decent too. Moat is a killer but cost probably too much for D&T, more of a Miracle sb card. Back To basic too. Hall of gemstone is hilarious, but does nothing against any other deck and it's in green.

Veteran Explorer is also really annoying.

[Krasman]

Also, Hall of Gemstone seems like a strong lock. Maybe for Elves, hitting you on turn 2. You can All is Dust that one though, and it is really narrow hate.

Not sure that Hall of Gemstone works on colourless mana?

Oracle text:

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses a color. Until end of turn, lands tapped for mana produce mana of the chosen color instead of any other color.

[Gheizen64]

Not sure that Hall of Gemstone works on colourless mana?

Oracle test:

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses a color. Until end of turn, lands tapped for mana produce mana of the chosen color instead of any other color.

?

You can't produce colorless since colorless is not a color, and as such, you can' cast half your deck with hall of gemstone down. It's still a super narrow answer.

[zyren]

?

You can't produce colorless since colorless is not a color, and as such, you can' cast half your deck with hall of gemstone down. It's still a super narrow answer.

it doesnt say you can't produce colorless. it just says COLORED mana switches to that chosen color. nothing happens to colorless.

[Gheizen64]

it doesnt say you can't produce colorless. it just says COLORED mana switches to that chosen color. nothing happens to colorless.

Mmh, that seems strange indeed.

[bruizar]

It seems everywhere I go I'm breaking worlds, literally. Pulled 2 World Breakers from the draft and beat everything down to a pulp with it. :x

[Barook]

I really like this list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/381239#online). I'd probably still try to squeeze in the Karakas into the MD, maybe cutting 1 Endbringer.

A couple of questions about the SB:
- Lightning Greaves: What are they for? Spot removal? Speed? Both?
- What's people's experience with Winter Orb? Where is it brought in?
- Oblivion Sower? Mirror tech, I assume, since it has a bigger butt than everything they have and it can ramp you even further?

[zyren]

I really like this list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/381239#online). I'd probably still try to squeeze in the Karakas into the MD, maybe cutting 1 Endbringer.

A couple of questions about the SB:
- Lightning Greaves: What are they for? Spot removal? Speed? Both?
- What's people's experience with Winter Orb? Where is it brought in?
- Oblivion Sower? Mirror tech, I assume, since it has a bigger butt than everything they have and it can ramp you even further?

Are you thinking of moving towards a colorless build, or are you going to stick with GW?

[MGB]

I like the idea of playing Eldrazi Displacer in this deck. It gives you an out to stuff like Marit Lage and Emrakul, and breaks ground stalls in the mirror.

I really don't see why this deck can't just play 2+ Karakas and 3-4 Displacer as long as it is playing a playset of Caverns and, say, 2 or so Mox Diamond.

[Barook]

I like the GW build, but given its shittiness in the mirror (which is still highly relevant), I'm reconsidering my options. City of Traitors is probably better right now due to speed, but clashes with the color requirements of the GW build. That might change when the meta shifts more towards decks like S&T, Reanimator and friends. Since it still runs a number of Displacers, this particular build catched my interested, as it looks about the same as the thing I wanted to try out.

Losing the flexibility of the SB and World Breaker kinda sucks, but whatever works, works. Some of its SB choices still look very weird, though.

I think about -1 Endbringer +1 Karakas MD

+1-2 Karakas, cutting something SB
- 2 Oblivion Sower (unless I hear good arguments for its inclusion) +1 Endbringer + 1 Displacer (both are also good cards in the mirror, except more flexible everywhere else; more Karakas post-board helps the higher Displacer numbers, too)
and maybe some All is Dust as catch-all solution if I find the space.

[MGB]

I don't think you need to warp the deck too much. There's no reason to go all the way to splash two additional colors. I just think you can slot Displacer in as a 3-of or 4-of, play Karakas, and the deck might be better than the stock colorless list because Displacer does so much, and Karakas is always useful in Legacy.

[Barook]

I don't think you need to warp the deck too much. There's no reason to go all the way to splash two additional colors. I just think you can slot Displacer in as a 3-of or 4-of, play Karakas, and the deck might be better than the stock colorless list because Displacer does so much, and Karakas is always useful in Legacy.
It's a trade-off. How often can you play double Reshaper T2 from Eye + Sol Land? Because otherwise, it's just a glorified chump blocker more often than not. Displacer brings the same power for the same mana cost to the table, plus very powerful utility. I just don't know how to cram enough Karakas copies into the list since 1 Urborg seems nice in a mainly colorless list. 1 Karakas might be easy to justify to go up to 25 lands, but 2/26 lands is already getting iffy, at least for the MD configuration.

Edit: This would be the list I have in mind:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer

2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Karakas
1 Dismember
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Endbringer
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
3 Warping Wail

This way, I get enough (semi-relevant) cards to side in vs Eldrazi when Chalice and Thorn are pretty much useless. Are 3 Macabres enough? I don't know, but it worked for Gerry Thompson, so there's that. I put in Wail since I still want ways to combat Elves and stuff. And Wail seems like the broadest hate one can apply that is also relevant in other matches.

[Delvis]

The philly variants were based mostly off of Kevin Toolan's Eldrazi Shops article http://southfloridamagic.com/the-evolution-of-eldrazi-shops/
I believe after the article, Toolan cut the trinis for 2 Jittes (first for a sword and a jitte, then cut the sword for more jitte), but it seems that the players at philly cut the wails for thorns and reduced the endbringer count.

I am pretty sure Harlan's team (NRG) was actually sourcing my playtest group's list. The sideboard graveyard hate was slightly different, but they arrived at a very similar maindeck. I was working with Paul Lynch and Michael Scheffenacker on refining the list, and they did a deck tech on the local Twitch stream (SnapCasters) the night that they both went 3-0-1, drawing with each other in the last round. You can check the stream for the deck tech, although the list they had there is out of date.

After that, they started fielding messages from lots of players about the list, including (apparently) a call from someone in Brazil trying to break the deck.

The maindeck differences were: we played 2 Endbringer, 4 Thorn, and 4 Wail; they played 3 Wail, 2 Dismember, 2 Trinisphere, an extra Jitte, and an extra Metamorph - changes our group was discussing in the week leading up to Philly. They also played an extra land in the third Factory, and swapped a City for an Eye.

The sideboard is also very close - we were messing around with Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre, and Pithing Needle for Lands hate, but were kicking around Leylines and Winter Orbs since they would let us still put Chalice on 1. It appears they found those answers sooner and were able to test them. They also played Ratchet Bomb where we had our 3 Dismembers, although Ratchet Bomb was a recent cut for us.

All in all, it seems clear they were basing it off of our list. The difference between Revokers + Jittes, and Moxen + Endbringers, is pretty stark. There's also much more similarity in the sideboards. It looks like GerryT's 2nd place list was closer to the SFM Shops list, though.

I'm busy at work tomorrow and then we have a weekly Legacy event tomorrow night, but I'm happy to answer questions people have. I can also try my hand at a primer, and I can talk to the team about possibly contributing to one. I'll also be more available later this week.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I am pretty sure Harlan's team (NRG) was actually sourcing my playtest group's list. The sideboard graveyard hate was slightly different, but they arrived at a very similar maindeck.

Harlan and crew's list was actually from The Brainstorm Show's podcast. I sent them the list a week or two before the tournament, and each player changed 1-3 cards. Not that it matters too much, but it was a little frustrating that Kent Ketter did a deck tech with 74 cards of the list I sent them and did not mention the podcast. We have an episode on the deck at thebrainstormshow.com. -Wilson

[deadreckoning]

Hey guys. Longtime lurker on this forum, time to get off my ass and start contributing. Thought I'd report in on my experience with a variation of the deck this weekend at the open. Played on nearly zero testing aside from a 3-1 FNM the night before, deviated from the colorless version, and ran into some match ups I didn't want to see with any version of this deck, but I figured despite the lackluster performance, I can give some feedback on some of the cards, etc.

Anyway, here's the list I ran:

Creatures - 20
3 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Endbringer

Artifacts - 11
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere

Instants - 4
2 Dismember
2 Warping Wail

Land - 25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Caves of Koilos

Sideboard
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Mind Stone
2 Disenchant
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
1 Warping Wail
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Worship

Played against:
R1 - Combo MUD (super early blightsteel all three games) 1-2
R2 - Maverick 1-2 (yeah....not a good time)
R3 - Goblins 2-0 (way easier than I thought it would be)
R4 - Painter 2-1 (wins through early blood moons)
R5 - Burn 1-2 (never saw threats after locks were up game 3)
R6 - Grixis Omni-Tell Storm 1-2 (mulled a lot and died to an early omni/petals/grapeshot g3...)
R7 - Burn 2-0 (lock and smash)
R8 - no show
R9 - Food Chain 1-2 (of course I played against food chain to finish the day)

Off the bat, the more typical colorless version probably would have won me a few matches I didn't win just due to consistency/speed (namely MUD, the weird omni deck and food chain), but I really wanted to run a version that had more play to it and wasn't dead in the water to blood moon early. Displacer was great all day, but I was really expecting to run into more Miracles/Shardless/Delver/ANT/Elves/Sneak and Show/mirror/etc where I think it would have really shined, especially in conjunction with Thought-Knot. Given my mana and mox diamond set up, I never had any problems casting white spells when I needed to, though I did have to mulligan a lot due to openers with no lands for some reason. Lodestone performed pretty well also. It's nice having one of your bigger threats to trigger mimic in the face of T1 blood moon that doesn't require waste mana and also functions as an additional lock.

I lost game 3 to burn in R5 to a goblin guide that flipped 7 lands to my hand while I also drew 7 more on the subsequent turns while I had his spells past a first bolt on my mimic locked out, so I'm not really sweating that matchup. Amethyst and Chalice just go to town in those games. The R7 match against burn went according to plan and Endbringer can really just keep you afloat and safe while you're waiting for smasher/TKS/lodestone to show up and finish the job.

Obviously not the day I envisioned, I didn't play all that great, and the matchups were less than ideal, but the deck was fun and the games were quick which is a nice bonus since I typically play miracles =). Not sure I'll stay on this deck, but any questions, let me know.

[ChemicalBurns]

Damn, I've been away from the thread (uni, etc.) and all of sudden we're here as one of the top contenders in the metagame. Sweet. For those looking to write a primer, feel free to use what I wrote some time ago here:

https://deathandtoolbox.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/the-stomp-box-the-new-kid-on-the-block-eldrazi-stompy/

And incorporate it. I also think the Primer should try and mention card choices/pros&cons from the splash builds (GW, RG, UW, MonoWhite, MonoBlue, maybe?), which may/may not be more relevant as the metagame progresses.

@Patrukenphat7 I was also pretty sad to see your credits get no mention. The Leylines, Traps and Contortions really stick out as being hallmarks of the list you elegantly outlined on the podcast. Your Eldrazi episode I also think should get some mention/link within the primer.

Anyway, now that we're moving into territory as a metagame staple I'd be happy to contribute to any housekeeping in terms of Primers etc., whoever's looking to do so is free to hit me up. Also expect a heavy feature in This Month in Legacy, for those who read it.

[MD.Ghost]

I really like this list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/381239#online). I'd probably still try to squeeze in the Karakas into the MD, maybe cutting 1 Endbringer.

A couple of questions about the SB:
- Lightning Greaves: What are they for? Spot removal? Speed? Both?
- What's people's experience with Winter Orb? Where is it brought in?
- Oblivion Sower? Mirror tech, I assume, since it has a bigger butt than everything they have and it can ramp you even further?

Greaves can be used to improve Endless One (aka a big dude that dies to decay) and Endbringer (upgrades to a "Planeswalker")
I am not sure about Winter Orb, i don't see the reason why i need it vs Control (already a good matchup - and better cards can be played at side), but maybe it works vs lands IF they don't get speed with Mox/Exploration (...)
Oblivion Sower seems to be a Mirror-Tech, you can abuse other Eldrazi Lands and block Smashers all day long - you can also try Duplicant or Wurmcoil Engine, but both (since no Eldrazi) can sometimes be slower.


I like the idea of playing Eldrazi Displacer in this deck. It gives you an out to stuff like Marit Lage and Emrakul, and breaks ground stalls in the mirror.

I really don't see why this deck can't just play 2+ Karakas and 3-4 Displacer as long as it is playing a playset of Caverns and, say, 2 or so Mox Diamond.

Yeah - i think Displacer is a great tool to improve problematic situations BUT you need to fix the Mana for him (...), see my thoughts below:

-----------------------------------

I thought about the SCG performance and all the builds that are flying around here. We got a nice discussion (over 30 pages for "Development"!) and should already mentioned each angle of attack against Eldrazi - the meta will adapt: one way or another.

I will try the following ideas (a mix of a lot of builds) for my next Eldrazi runs:

Land (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Wasteland
3x City of Traitors
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Karakas
1x Plains


Most numbers are common and set in stone - personally i like 3 City/Eye to avoid more bad draws/starting hands. Since this build (see below) will also include Eldrazi Displacer, more "white" Mana is needed. Karakas is the perfect fit here, because it improves Sneak&Show, Reanimate and (to a minor degree) Lands. The single Plains (hey Basic!) can also be the more common Urborg, but first i wan't to max out the chance to cast Displacer. Playset Wasteland to complete the Tax-Elements, improve the Mirror (we learned that Eldrazi are weak vs Manadenial) and gives a way to fight port and other annoying lands. Without White you get 3 slots for Mishra or other stuff - but as i explained, this colorless build will try to fit in Displacer.

Creature (22)
4x Eldrazi Mimic
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Lodestone Golem
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Endbringer

First we get the common colorless stuff: Playsets Mimic, Seer, Smasher - secondly not only the established Endbringer to control the Battlefield but also Displacer as a little brother (cc3 vs cc6). It is more or less the Slot from Matter Reshaper and i think Displacer (if the mana works) is the stronger one. That little Guy won me many games on its own and is a great way (against creatures) for a manasink. Now the uncommon slots: I will try Lodestone Golem, because (if you got the right lands) he is another good 4drop (which means Turn 2+) besides Thought-Knot Seer that can win Games on its own and brings some synergy with Thorn, Wasteland and will also trigger Mimic(!) as another 5-Power dude. I put him over Endless One, because he has more raw power for "only" 4 Mana. I also included a pair of Phyrexian Metamorph, because it will allow you to copy Seer, Smasher, Golem and Thorn and can also be abused with Displacer or simply copy annoying Stuff from your Opponent (Mirror?!).

Rest (13)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Dismember
2x Mox Diamond
1x Crucible of Worlds

Besides Chalice most colorless Eldrazi Builds want to run Thorn. I also included 3 since the build also contains 3 Lodestone Golem and Metamorphs to copy for more Tax if needed. Since Thorn isn't good against any matchups 3 should be good enough with the other cards in mind. Dismember is needed vs Mirror and Gofy (a problem we already discussed) so it seems to be Maindeck stuff which complete the Package of Displacer+Endbringer to control the field from the beginning till lategame. Mox isn't the best card, but i feel it is needed if you also want Displacer. It will also ensure that you can get rid of multiple Eye/City and allow you to ramp into T1/T2 plays if you can only start without Tomb/City. Two copies should avoid a bit that you draw multiple for bad topdecks/starting hands etc. Since the build don't need full color support, the number should be correct. Crucible for me is also an autoinclude in this build, it works well with Wastelands, City, Mox and is simply another compatible element with Thorn/Golem/Chalice. I don't see why i want Crucible only at Side, if one of the major problems for Eldrazi can be Manadenial and the common colorless builds also uses 3-4 Wastelands.

Sideboard (15)
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x All Is Dust
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Warping Wail
2x Wastes

Not all is set in stone, but i tried to cover some weak spots. Leyline will catch Graveyard-Combos very hard (Turn 0, can't be countered, not easy to remove) and will also work against Lands/Loam to avoid recurring Wastelands. Sadly i must reduce Warping Wail (since the Maindeck is more "tap out" every turn) but i still like some copies at Side. Since the build contains Spells like Dismember/Displacer/Endbringer Main, you don't need much more Pointremoval. Wastes come in vs Moon and Manadenial (note: Miracle brew also with From the Ashes!), since the build don't run any Mana-Stones. I am not sure if All is Dust is needed in this build (otherwise a great Spell for Eldrazi!), maybe you can try a copy of here Ulamog/World Breaker, since Stuff like Moat/Bridge/Humility will be a thing once Eldrazi are full established - i for myself basically don't want to loose against that stuff. We can also talk about stuff like Jitte, Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine, Oblivion Sower or Duplicant against the Mirror or other Decks with Big Dudes etc.

------
EDIT: @ChemicalBurns: Thanks for the link :cool: - and you are right, don't miss the color Splashes for further development.

[mosaic]

Played again my weekly with almost the same list I used last week (on page 27)

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Warping Wail
2 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Winter Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 All is Dust

Went 2-2-0

R1: Storm lost 0:2
Both games were prety close, g1 lost due to misplay on my part, g2 was ridiculous, I had CotV @1 and @0, Trinisphere, and Thorn of Amethyst on the table..... Decay, Decay, Decay, Krosan Grip ruined my day..., anyway game was awesome and pretty close. Had troubles with land drops.

R2: Shardless BUG lost 0:2
g1 land screw
g2 mulligan and then land screw again!
Both games involved hand City, Eldrazi Temple and Mox, and then never saw another land, opposing Wasteland sealed the deal.


R3: UW Mentor control
g1 CotV @1 seal the deal, g2 land screw, g3 long lasting grindy matchup, Displacer saved the game and Endbringer took last chunks of life from my opponent (with Bridge on table).
-
R4: High Tide
g1 CotV @1 and he has no outs, g2 CotV @1 FoWed, second CotV @1 FoWed, third CotV @1 stick and Smashers finished game as supposed to.

I don't know if it is me, or deck, but its land drop consistency is somewhat weakest point, because last time I had land flood. Well in all honesty, this comes from long time TA player.

From the comments, white splash is something I want, because it just gave the deck many answers, namely flipped delvers, Emrakuls, Marit Lage etc. Next time I might consider Lodestone Golems from MD.Ghost suggestion, in place of Phyrexian Revoker as they underperformed.
Not sure about the Phyrexian Metamorph MD, as Mimics won't copy its p/t since it is blue.

Deck is really strong when it gets going, apart from those land screws.

[MD.Ghost]

Not sure about the Phyrexian Metamorph MD, as Mimics won't copy its p/t since it is blue.


Metamorph should work with Mimic.

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s
characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode,
targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The
“copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name,
mana cost, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or
loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned
face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down.
Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not
copied.

706.2a A copy acquires the color of the object it’s copying because that value is derived from its
mana cost. A copy acquires the abilities of the object it’s copying because those values are
derived from its rules text. A copy doesn’t wind up with two values of each ability (that is, it
doesn’t copy the object’s abilities and its rules text, then have that rules text define a new set of
abilities).

[badmojo]

Went 3-0-1 at my local store (the draw was ID in round 4).

R1 - Miracles
Game 1 - Eldrazi rolls game 1 with Mimic, Thought Knot and Smashers.Sided in O Sower, Null Rod, All is Dust, Karn. Sided out 3 Thorn and Jitte.
Game 2 - Lots of cat and mouse. I have two Mimics and tap out to cast Endless for 4, rather than hold onto Warping Wail, he tops for Terminus. He stalls with his repeated Karakas, Venser, Clique shenanigans. However, Wasteland and Ulamog stop his bouncing tricks for me to take the game.

R2 - Miracles
Game 1 - Eldrazi rolls with Smashers, Endbringers, and other fatties. SB - same as before.
Game 2 - He beats me with repeated snapcasters for Swords (after removing Chalice). I All is Dust to wipe his board. Later he follows up with From the Ashes, killing all my lands. I don't recover in time.
Game 3 - Eldrazi rolling hand with Mimic, Thought Knot and Smashers.

R3 - DnT
Game 1 - Turn 1 Chalice for 1 turns off Swords. He has a hand with Stoneforge and other lands. Gets rolled quickly. Side in Tsabo's Web, Powder Keg, Spacial Contortion. Side out 3 Thorns.
Game 2 - I remember he swords my early Thought-Knot and eventually had 2 Serra Avengers. My Mimic sits there. Avengers beat me to 4 before I Eye of Ugin to get Ulamog. He didn't see that coming and Avengers were removed. I gain 10 for my trouble and stabilize after that with more Eye activations.

R4 - Elves
We draw. We play sample games and I beat him thoroughly. Game 1 - Chalice for 1 followed up by major beatings. Game 2 - Powder Keg turn 1 puts the breaks on an aggressive plan. I follow with Thought Knot which shuts his game down. We played about 6 games and I won 5, including situations where Warping Wail counters Natural Order or DRS.

4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Endless One
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Endbringer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

3 Warping Wail
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ratchet Bomb

4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Sower
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Powder Keg
1 Null Rod
3 Trinisphere
1 All is Dust
1 Dismember
1 Karn Liberated
1 Amber Prison
1 Tsabo's Web

[mosaic]

@MD.Ghost I stand corrected, thanks!

[ZEROorDIE]

4-0d my local legacy last night(well 3-0-1 but we played just to see how it would go.)

2-0 food chain- I just had the nuts both games even keeping in the dark game 1 a hand with eye, temple, sol, mimic, though knot, reality smasher dismember. G2 would have gone a bit differently had he used fierce empath for gurmag instead of tasigur(he thought he had mana to activate and return murderous cut) but I still had 2 back up reality smasher to close the game out

2-1 oops all spells- game 1 I lost before I even got to take a turn. Next game I blew him out with a chalice on 0 and curved into mimic and smasher. G3 I got him by t1 revomkng his 2 lotus petals and slowly beating with mimic and revoker

2-0 mirror- he was on Gerry t's list. Dismember was a champ here. Don't remember all the details bit him failing to crack his wasteland early didn't help. G2 I cast 1 dismember for 4 life and a second off of his urborg to take no damage

2-1 shardless- g1 was quick curved mimic into thought knot and top dexked endbringer, g2 an early goyf took it, g3 was more interactive and very close. A top deck smasher against his strix took it home.

I'm still running spirit guides and trinisphere, no reahapers and a 2/3 split of wasteland to factory. Also the meta was wierd last night. Got a bit more testing in on Saturday as well. Infect, DnT are both pretty tough matchups. I lost to infect with an active chalice on 1

Funny story, when trying to shut down two drops with chalice, don't cast mimic.

[Krasman]

2-0 food chain- I just had the nuts both games even keeping in the dark game 1 a hand with eye, temple, sol, mimic, though knot, reality smasher dismember. G2 would have gone a bit differently had he GSZ"d for gurmag instead of tasigur(he thought he had mana to activate and return murderous cut) but I still had 2 back up reality smasher to close the game out

How do you GSZ for Gurmag / Tasigur?

[ZEROorDIE]

How do you GSZ for Gurmag / Tasigur?

Sorry it wasn't GSZ it was fierce empath

[Krasman]

Sorry it wasn't GSZ it was fierce empath

That makes a lot more sense.

[josch6083]

hey guys,

for the ones who play a gw version. It´s maybe a crazy thought, but how about "berserk". Not only our Endless one gets trample or tks etc. you can destroy any creature your opponent controls in your turn or end of turn for just 1 green mana. Could be worth thinking about. Just a crazy thought ...:cool:

[Krasman]

hey guys,

for the ones who play a gw version. It´s maybe a crazy thought, but how about "berserk". Not only our Endless one gets trample or tks etc. you can destroy any creature your opponent controls in your turn or end of turn for just 1 green mana. Could be worth thinking about. Just a crazy thought ...:cool:

You need to use Berserk in combat; so you are unable to use it as an end of turn removal.

Also being one mana it does not work with CotV; if you wanted 1 CC cards Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshare would be a better option.

[Plynch1983]

Regardless of who shipped the first list or who publicly was credited for the deck, i think its pretty amazing that multiple teams of people came to almost the same conclusion on deck building, mana bases, sideboards, play lines and so on. Everyone at the top tables in Philly pretty much knew each other and we openly shared info beyond just deck lists. How to board in each much up with our different builds of eldrazi, what changes should be made after the event and identifing the Lynch pin (no pun intended) in each deck and how to use that to our advantage. That is something you don't see a lot. All 9 of the eldrazi decks on day 2had a record of 10-5 or better. For "week 1"that's a very good showing. I'm glad I could say Iwas a part of it. So to ever person who made a good point or provided a good sideboard option or even just stated your opinion on the deck in this forum, I say thank you. Every little bit of information helps and in the end it makes all of our list better and more adept at destroying the format

Here the list the that I finished just outside top 32 on breakers with. I caught early losses to the mirror and a close game 3 against shardless on day one. Day 2 lost to to miracles and storm after mulling to 5 or less in game 3's and lost to esper mentor as well

Lands
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Eye of Ugin
2x Mishra’s Factory

Disruption
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Trinisphere
4x Warping Wail

Creatures
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Eldrazi Mimic
3x Endless One
3x Matter reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
1x Endbringer
1x Phyrexian Metamorph

Equipment
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
3x dismember
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Endbringer
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Karakas

I'll post updated lists and board plans when I get around to it. until then eldrazi up boys!

Paul

[talpa]

(...) i think its pretty amazing that multiple teams of people came to almost the same conclusion on deck building, mana bases, sideboards, play lines and so on (...)
4x City of traitors


While there are many things I would be curious to ask, this one resounded loud for me since sunday: aren't 4 cities too much? most list in this thread before Philly proposed 3 and I went into the opposite direction reducing to two, not upping to 4!

How many times are you force to either skip your turn 1 play or wasteland yourself by playing the other land?

[Fox]

While there are many things I would be curious to ask, this one resounded loud for me since sunday: aren't 4 cities too much? most list in this thread before Philly proposed 3 and I went into the opposite direction reducing to two, not upping to 4!

How many times are you force to either skip your turn 1 play or wasteland yourself by playing the other land?
This deck gets most of its wins based off its ability to stick a 2cmc lock piece on turn 1 (or replay them turn 2 if countered). Following up a resolved lock piece with TKS hand disruption is what really seals the deal. Everything else in the deck is just the backup plan for that opening not happening. More cities = more free wins.

Eldrazi is only really an aggro deck in modern, there is little correlation between T1 mimic and T3 smasher and its winrate in legacy. More lock pieces, 2 mana starts (i.e. crystal vein), and crucibles may not win the mirror, but it will win more games overall than eldrazi temples and mimics.

[talpa]

I agree that the lock piece has to be played first and the menace second.
But I don't agree that this is worth the risk of having too many cities.

Do you mullingan every hand that doesn't have TWO sol lands?
Otherwise, if you have a sol land and a wasteland or a cavern, what line of play do you chose?

1. land, go
or
2. city, play a spell, my second land will destroy my first?

If I have to choose between playing chalice on my second turn or wasteland myself out, I would always choose the first. Even if chalice resolves, this deck dies by itself if it gets mana screwed. If chalice doesn't resolve, and your second spells neither, it would be a total blowout.

I am playing as I said with two cities. If I have to increase the probability of 1st turn lock, I would go (as someone already did with success in Italy!!) with 23 lands + 3 simian spirit guide over 24 lands of which 4 are cities. Following your argument, all that matters is two mana FIRST turn, so 26 mana sources, 3 of which one-use only, is better than 24. My argument being that later on, 23 lands of which only 2 are cities means 21 "real" lands, which is better than 24 of which 4 are cities, which means 20 "actual" lands only.

So again, how many times were you unhappy with your choice? How many times it worked out? We need data :D

[MGB]

The reason you absolutely want 4 City of Traitors and only 3 Eye of Ugin is because City's 2 mana can be used on Eldrazi AND lock pieces. Eye's 2 mana can only count toward Eldrazi creatures and can't even tap for 1 for a lock piece.

Lock pieces (Thorns, Chalices, etc) are arguably the most important part of this deck, so you have to run 4 Cities and less than a playset of Eyes.

[talpa]

Ok that English is not my first language, but I wonder what language am I speaking.
Do I said anything about 4 eyes? no.
I asked a very different question and proposed a sound alternative.
All that never questioning that turn 1 lock piece IS the better play.

[MD.Ghost]

The reason you absolutely want 4 City of Traitors and only 3 Eye of Ugin is because City's 2 mana can be used on Eldrazi AND lock pieces. Eye's 2 mana can only count toward Eldrazi creatures and can't even tap for 1 for a lock piece.

Lock pieces (Thorns, Chalices, etc) are arguably the most important part of this deck, so you have to run 4 Cities and less than a playset of Eyes.

3x City and 3x Eye should work well enough too - i don't see that this deck needs 4 City as a core. Sure it is nice to play a lockpiece turn 1, but you still have to balance the mana well enough - one off the reasons MUD & other stompy decks never achieved Tier 1 status. As i mentioned (a lot) i would also run 1 crucible Main (with 4 Wastelands) recover stability during a game.

We discussed that this deck don't like Manadenial, so killing yourself (too often) is not the right way.

[Fox]

I agree that the lock piece has to be played first and the menace second.
But I don't agree that this is worth the risk of having too many cities.

Do you mullingan every hand that doesn't have TWO sol lands?
Otherwise, if you have a sol land and a wasteland or a cavern, what line of play do you chose?

1. land, go
or
2. city, play a spell, my second land will destroy my first?

If I have to choose between playing chalice on my second turn or wasteland myself out, I would always choose the first. Even if chalice resolves, this deck dies by itself if it gets mana screwed. If chalice doesn't resolve, and your second spells neither, it would be a total blowout.

I am playing as I said with two cities. If I have to increase the probability of 1st turn lock, I would go (as someone already did with success in Italy!!) with 23 lands + 3 simian spirit guide over 24 lands of which 4 are cities. Following your argument, all that matters is two mana FIRST turn, so 26 mana sources, 3 of which one-use only, is better than 24. My argument being that later on, 23 lands of which only 2 are cities means 21 "real" lands, which is better than 24 of which 4 are cities, which means 20 "actual" lands only.

So again, how many times were you unhappy with your choice? How many times it worked out? We need data :D
The issue with data is that most people are on 4 Temple/4 Mimic lists [talking only about colorless lists here], whereas it is possible that the best list uses 0-1 Temple and no Mimics (no eldrazi lower than TKS). If this is the best list you likely run:
-between 22-24 lands, half of them are actual sol lands (tomb, city, vein)
-between 16-18 obnoxious 2-drop lock pieces (chalice, thorn, revoker, winter orb/null rod). Here the deck needs just one more card, and thalia is so close to correct; to me this missing 2cmc piece is the real riddle since the deck can struggle with spheres getting cast into thorns. In the meantime the slot is filled by endless ones [??]
-between 8-10 game enders (4x TKS, and 4-6 slots between smashers/endbringer/ulamog)
-around 2-3x crucible and up to 8 flex slots

Maybe the deck needs some YOLO'destone Golems or Metamorphs, but that addressing that weakness between 2 and 4 mana is where the most important theory-crafting will take place for the colorless versions. Until then I think this deck really has to overload that 2-drop slot...the current practice of noticing Mimic isn't getting the job done in legacy and suicide-attacking with jitte attached, is probably somewhere between less than optimal and incorrect.

As a tangential side note, eldrazi temple is probably still correct for colored legacy eldrazi lists using displacer.

Hmm, I guess there's also an honorable mention to Sundial of the Infinite as a way to stifle city triggers. You're soft to stifle, but this allows you to safely reach 3-4 mana from 2 without risk of a counterspell as a city is going to the bin.

[iostream]

Regardless of who shipped the first list or who publicly was credited for the deck, i think its pretty amazing that multiple teams of people came to almost the same conclusion on deck building, mana bases, sideboards, play lines and so on. Everyone at the top tables in Philly pretty much knew each other and we openly shared info beyond just deck lists. How to board in each much up with our different builds of eldrazi, what changes should be made after the event and identifing the Lynch pin (no pun intended) in each deck and how to use that to our advantage. That is something you don't see a lot. All 9 of the eldrazi decks on day 2had a record of 10-5 or better. For "week 1"that's a very good showing. I'm glad I could say Iwas a part of it. So to ever person who made a good point or provided a good sideboard option or even just stated your opinion on the deck in this forum, I say thank you. Every little bit of information helps and in the end it makes all of our list better and more adept at destroying the format

Here the list the that I finished just outside top 32 on breakers with. I caught early losses to the mirror and a close game 3 against shardless on day one. Day 2 lost to to miracles and storm after mulling to 5 or less in game 3's and lost to esper mentor as well

Lands
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Eye of Ugin
2x Mishra’s Factory

Disruption
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Trinisphere
4x Warping Wail

Creatures
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Eldrazi Mimic
3x Endless One
3x Matter reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
1x Endbringer
1x Phyrexian Metamorph

Equipment
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
3x dismember
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Endbringer
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Karakas

I'll post updated lists and board plans when I get around to it. until then eldrazi up boys!

PaulThank you for the initial video - I think that's the thing that got people thinking in the right direction on this forum. Greatly looking forward to your updated list and analysis!

[MGB]

Ok that English is not my first language, but I wonder what language am I speaking.
Do I said anything about 4 eyes? no.
I asked a very different question and proposed a sound alternative.
All that never questioning that turn 1 lock piece IS the better play.

It's just too important to have access to 2 mana on Turn 1 to play a Chalice or Thorn.

I heard Gerry Thompson at SCG Philly talking about it with someone and he said that he would never play less than 4 City in any version of the Eldrazi deck because the fast early mana is too important to the deck's success.

I think you can debate as to how many Eyes to play, but IMHO and (probably in the Pros perspective as well) it seems as if 4 City is the correct call.

[.Ix]

The fourth City only increases the probability of a Sol Land on T1 by about 5%. Considering the probability of having a lock card t1 with 4 chalice and 4 thorn is about 74%, the 4th City does this particular job only 3.6% of the time. I'm not sue how that goes up with mulligans, but I have been screwed over by multiple Cities more than 3.6% of the time, and I'm only running 3!

[talpa]

Thank you .Ix

@MGB Do you even bother reading what I write before responding? You keep quoting me out of context:

It's just too important to have access to 2 mana on Turn 1 to play a Chalice or Thorn

Have I ever denied that it's probably the most important thing to be able to deploy a lock piece over a threat the faster the better? No.
Let me underline for you the most important part of what I was saying:


If I had to increase the probability of 1st turn lock, I would go with 23 lands + 3 simian spirit guide over 24 lands of which 4 are cities.
Following your argument, if all that matters is two mana FIRST turn, 26 mana sources (3 of which one-use only) is better than 24.
My argument being that later on 23 lands of which only 2 are cities means 21 "real" lands, which is better than 24 of which 4 are cities, because in this second case you only have 20 "actual" lands
Maybe it's my fault and I got you confused because I spoke of the total mana sources... for the first part of the argument let's count only sol lands ok?
Your proposal: 4 tombs + 4 cities -> 8 sources
My proposal: 4 tombs + 2/3 cities + 3 SSG -> 9/10 sources of two mana first turn
Is it more clear now?


As for the fallacy of your reasoning:

(...) IMHO and (probably in the Pros perspective as well)
This is an Argument from Authority, if you don't know what that means, you can wikipedia it here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority). If you want to remain in Magic examples, Losset is a great player but I would never play his clunky (legendary creatures) Miracle list over the European One (ponders) even if he keep getting results with it (it's the player and not the list). Last Sunday he tweeted complaining about his loss to Tom Ross that he only needed a one-mana spell on top to win, and I was almost tempted to reply: "look, if you playerd 4 ponders maybe it would have been there". That's only for "the pros being always right".

Regards

[Poron]

why SSG when ESG helps you with Worldbreaker?

ESG + Worldbreaker just get you out of every situation

[MD.Ghost]

why SSG when ESG helps you with Worldbreaker?

ESG + Worldbreaker just get you out of every situation

Right - if you play with Guides please go ESG + World Breaker.

[Gheizen64]

Right - if you play with Guides please go ESG + World Breaker.

I'd like to but there's the problem of fitting him in, also, he's still 7 mana at which point you could play All is dust.

EDIT: there's also another more subtle problem. Playing spirit guides mean you'll get to 7 mana harder than without guides. Guides lists shouldn't have anything higher than 5 imho.

[Poron]

Ugin and All is Dust do not get rid of Ensnaring Bridge, which will be like the very hate to Eldrazi.

It is immune to
All is Dust
Ugin
Chalice
Trinisphere
Mimic tricks

Only Thorn of Amethyst effects it a little and it's playable by every deck.
It's going to appear also maindeck in my opinion

[cab0747]

Played again my weekly with almost the same list I used last week (on page 27)

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Endless One
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Warping Wail
2 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Winter Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 All is Dust

Went 2-2-0

R1: Storm lost 0:2
Both games were prety close, g1 lost due to misplay on my part, g2 was ridiculous, I had CotV @1 and @0, Trinisphere, and Thorn of Amethyst on the table..... Decay, Decay, Decay, Krosan Grip ruined my day..., anyway game was awesome and pretty close. Had troubles with land drops.

R2: Shardless BUG lost 0:2
g1 land screw
g2 mulligan and then land screw again!
Both games involved hand City, Eldrazi Temple and Mox, and then never saw another land, opposing Wasteland sealed the deal.


R3: UW Mentor control
g1 CotV @1 seal the deal, g2 land screw, g3 long lasting grindy matchup, Displacer saved the game and Endbringer took last chunks of life from my opponent (with Bridge on table).
-
R4: High Tide
g1 CotV @1 and he has no outs, g2 CotV @1 FoWed, second CotV @1 FoWed, third CotV @1 stick and Smashers finished game as supposed to.

I don't know if it is me, or deck, but its land drop consistency is somewhat weakest point, because last time I had land flood. Well in all honesty, this comes from long time TA player.

From the comments, white splash is something I want, because it just gave the deck many answers, namely flipped delvers, Emrakuls, Marit Lage etc. Next time I might consider Lodestone Golems from MD.Ghost suggestion, in place of Phyrexian Revoker as they underperformed.
Not sure about the Phyrexian Metamorph MD, as Mimics won't copy its p/t since it is blue.

Deck is really strong when it gets going, apart from those land screws.

First, I want to say I REALLY like you list. I do have a few quesitons, however.


Was this online? You seem pretty scared of SnS with Endbringer, Displacer, Revoker, and karakas. I feel like SnS is big online, but not big on paper. Maybe a meta call or were there other reasons for these cards?
Any thought about fitting a crucible in the 60? If so, what would the cut be? I was thinking about going down to 2 Revokers.
Are you comfortable with Endbringer being an answer to ensnaring bridge? I was considering splashing green JUST for Worldbreaker to deal with opposing Bridges.

[Cire]

Mosaic I like your list a lot - my current build is the same except

-2 Endbringer
+2 Worldbreaker
-2 Trinisphere
+2 Thorn
-2 Plains
+2 Horizon Canopy

(The thought processes is that Endbringer is great against reanimator and S&T, but I have Displacer and Karakas for that part instead - I would love to find room for more Worldbreakers because people are beginning to play Ensnaring Bridge a lot. I would also like to find room for crucible of worlds to abuse wasteland and Horizon)

[Barook]

I'm currently quite busy due to work and looking for a new apartment, so I don't have as much time as I'd like to test more.

I love my World Breakers as they're a really good answer to alot of stuff, even as a blocker for flyers. But they are relatively slow (can't ignore that, especially after getting destroyed in the mirror) and cost green mana, something that isn't easy to come by if you want to run City for speed reasons.

Assuming you want to run 2 World Breakers - what's the approximate number of green sources (Cavern, Mox, or otherwise) to reliably cast it? MWS goes with 6, ChannelFireball with a way higher number (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/). So I wonder.

[Dice_Box]

Ok guys. I am going to need a primer from you by the 14th of April if these numbers hold. No joke.

[darkgh0st]

Ok guys. I am going to need a primer from you by the 14th of April if these numbers hold. No joke.

Hooray!! to Eldrazi

[Cire]

Who is writing a primer?

It's hard to nail down what card choices should be included. So far I have:

4 Ancient Tomb
2-4 City of Traitors
2-4 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5-11 Other Lands and/or Mox Diamond (Most common additional lands are Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory)

4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Other Lock Pieces (Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst)
6-7 "Removal" (Warping Wail/Jitte/Dismember/All is Dust)

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
0-4 Legendary Creature Control (Endbringer/Karakas)
0-4 Phyrexian Revoker
0-8 "Small Eldrazi Option" (Eldrazi Mimic/Endless One)
0-6 "Mid Size Option" (Matter Reshaper/Metamorph)
0-3 "White Splash Option (Eldrazi Displacer)
0-2 "Problematic non-creature permanent removal Option" (World Breaker/Ugin/Ulmog)
0-4 "Accel options" (SSG/ESG/Mox)

At this point I think it is understood that Oblivion Sower and/or Black Splashes are sub-optimal? The green splash is really just for world breaker, and really that's not so much a splash for green as it is a splash for a particular artifact/enchantment removal. White splash is only Displacer. The Midsize option seems to be less favorable than the Small Eldrazi option. The white splash option can be paired with either the Mid size or Small option. Karakas seems to take the place of the legendary creature control instead of a land spot - often competing or supplementing Endbringer. In the removal suite, Dismember is usually only a 0-2, most likely a 1, due to the life loss. It also seems to be recommended to play at least 2 Jitte in builds with dismember for life gain.

[bruizar]

That pretty much sums it up. I'd say Umezawa's Jitte is another important one to note and I'd also like to add that Workshop aggro decks used to play O-Naginata and Chalice together, so other equipment should also be looked at. In the lands list, Tower of the Magistrate is going to be important if games are decided by who has Jitte first or against Batterskull.

Drowner of Hope and World Breaker both compete for the Endbringer slot. So far I like the World Breaker effect best, but he's hard to cast. Endbringer makes it rather easy especially if you are running Urborgs (better probability to land a turn 3 Endbringer).

As for the black splash, Dismember costs a lot of life and we should already be running Urborgs to mitigate ancient tomb damage. Black is the easiest splash for Eldrazi, but also the least tried because Wasteland Strangler is conditional.

[Cire]

I included Jitte in the "Removal Suite" and included World Breaker as a separate option from Endbringer as they try to accomplish different things. Also placed Urborg as a common land to be player in the open land slots; remember that urborg is played even without black splash - as it can act as a 2 mana land with Eye of Ugin.

[Krasman]

GR is a valid choice as well for coloured builds.

[Poron]

GR gives you also the best removal tools ever.

From Krosan Grip to pretty much everything.
ESG, Urgborg and Mox Diamond allow you to be consistent in casting Maelstrom Pulse as well..

[ZEROorDIE]

I think the hardest part of the primer will be getting enough data together for match ups and then nailing down an approximate sideboard.

My tuned up list after 16 rounds of testing this weekend.

3 revoker
4 mimic
4 endless one
4 thought knot
4 reality smasher
2 endbringer
3 simian spirit guide

4 chalice
3 thorn
3 wail
2 dismember

1 urborg
2 wasteland
3 factory
3 cavern
3 eye
4 temple
4 city
4 tomb

SB
1 warping wail
2 pithing needle
2 sphere of resistance
2 jitte
1 dismember
3 faerie macabre
1 crucible
3 trinisphere

Notable changes:
Moved trinisphere to the side to test thorn. Trini has really been lackluster outside of combo(where it has been a powerhouse), cut a factory and cavern for 2 wasteland to help with utility lands. I've found that with the threat density of this deck and no colored cards, 3 cavern seems to be sufficient.

Also tuned up the SB a lot. With the only answer to blood moon and bridge being ratchet bomb(which takes three turns to activate for them) I've given up trying to destroy them. I've fought through blood moons, price of progress and bridge using the little guys and mishra's factory while the opponent is locked out. Still need a good answer though and plan to test

Nevinyrral's disk
Oblivion stone
Spine of ish sha
Unstable obelisk

To see if any of those work out better.

Right now I've been very happy with spirit guide. I try to play on curve when possible and spirit guide is a house in that regard, especially when playing into daze.

I really don't believe in a splash. The consistancy is barely there already.

I'd like to fit another wasteland in here but I'm not sure what to cut as the deck has felt really good.

[Eldariel]

Given much of the power of the deck is in the first turn Chalices, I think it's reasonable to argue Eldrazi Temple doesn't warrant automatic inclusion either. Tomb, City and Eye seem like the obvious fast mana for what they offer but the rest of the manabase seems like it should be given thought to. Same with the fast accel: Mox Diamond/Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal/Grim Monolith/etc. should probably all be mentioned. Ironically the non-land part seems comparatively easy to nail down: TKS and RS are just the best and Mimic/Endless One/Chalice/Dismember/Wail rounds it out nicely. And it's hard to argue for cutting Endbringer either so that really just leaves Thorn as something to discuss.

[ZEROorDIE]

Given much of the power of the deck is in the first turn Chalices, I think it's reasonable to argue Eldrazi Temple doesn't warrant automatic inclusion either. Tomb, City and Eye seem like the obvious fast mana for what they offer but the rest of the manabase seems like it should be given thought to. Same with the fast accel: Mox Diamond/Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal/Grim Monolith/etc. should probably all be mentioned. Ironically the non-land part seems comparatively easy to nail down: TKS and RS are just the best and Mimic/Endless One/Chalice/Dismember/Wail rounds it out nicely. And it's hard to argue for cutting Endbringer either so that really just leaves Thorn as something to discuss.

Just to reinforce this, I played without endbringer in my early iterations of the deck and the lack of top end was really apparent.

And yes, mana rocks and accel should have a pretty sizable section if for no other reason than to encourage further testing that we have ommited.

[Cire]

Okay, how is this hodgepodge:

6-8 Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Crystal Vein)
0- 8 Eldrazi Lands (Eldrazi Temple/Eye of Ugin)*
4 Cavern of Souls
5-11 Other Lands (Most common additional lands are Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory)
0-8 Mana Accel (Mox Diamond, Mana Rocks, Spirit Guides, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal)*
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Other Lock Pieces (Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst)
4-8 "Removal" (Warping Wail/Jitte/Dismember/All is Dust)**
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
0-4 Legendary Creature Control (Endbringer/Karakas)***
0-4 Phyrexian Revoker
0-8 "Small Eldrazi Option" (Eldrazi Mimic/Endless One)
0-6 "Mid Size Option" (Matter Reshaper/Metamorph)
0-3 "White Splash Option (Eldrazi Displacer)
0-2 "Problematic non-creature permanent removal Option" (World Breaker/Ugin/Eldrazi Titans)***
*Options between Eldrazi Lands and Mana Accel is about whether to focus on increasing Chalice @ 1 turn 1 chances or having a larger chance for TKS turn 2. The two options are inherently at odds. Some builds may try running a full set of both, but this may make the deck's threat count too low.
** If you have 2 or more dismembers you should think about include jitte so as to have some life gain.
*** In these two options are the "Top End" of the deck - it is recommended that you run at least 2 "Top End Cards"

[darkgh0st]

I find the MUD primer structure very useful when explaining cards and builds. Should card usefulness ranking also be included? I find a lot of unexplained cards end up popping up once in a while in the MUD forums (even though the card is useless, Serrated Arrows).

EDIT:
Blue:
- Eldrazi Skyspawner - semi-ramp, flying for delver
- Drowner of Hope - powerful, but competes with Endbringer with card purpose, with Endbringer probably becoming the better choice. Can be used as a semi-ramp for Eye of Ugin
- Ruination Guide - Eldrazi lord that doesn't make the cut in legacy

Red:
- Eldrazi Obligator - can deal a big load of damage in a turn where you have mimic and steal a creature. Usually a game ender.
- Vile Aggregate - used with blue and is somewhat considered the Eldrazi Tarmogoyf.

Black:
- Wasteland Strangler - doesn't make the cut in legacy eldrazi

White:
- Eldrazi Displacer - main reason to go white, and has a very useful ability

Green:
- World Breaker - untested in legacy. 7cc might end up too high and his ability might be low impact.

Just a mini-list which we can grow and incorporate if color strategies are what people would like to look for.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Been following this deck for a while and decided to give it a go! This is what I'm planning to playtest in the next few weeks -- it's very fun playing a new archetype in a format like legacy but I still am not sure about many of the slots.

Here's the list:

Creatures (22)
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells (13)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls (for some reason, I feel like this should be 3)
3 City of Traitors (The 4th feels "clunky" but it still might be worth playing 4 with 25 land)
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Mishra's Factory (Considering upping to 3 in place of a Cavern)
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Excellent with Dismember as an added bonus)

I'm also not playing any Warping Wail, which feels like a mistake but it's tough to find the right combination. Is 4 Chalice and 3 Thorns enough or is it better to play with the whole playset? My sideboard is a mess, so I'm not going to bother posting it until I at least sort out what I want there.

Side note, can't wait till this is in the Established section, so that I can stop switching between sub-forums lol :tongue:

[Cire]

I don't think usefulness is worth it right now since we don't know what is objectively more useful. As you can see from the skeleton, there are a variety of ways to build the deck - but its not like we figured out which one is better.

[Poron]

Can you please explain me Matter Reshaper?

I mean if it gets Thorn Jitte or Revoker ok, but Chalice and Endless are suicidical if found.
All other scenario it's just a cantrip where you might, instead, Drop a Phyrexian Metamorph on TSK or on an Endbringer to draw a honest 5 cards per turn

[Cire]

Matter Reshaper is a cantrip when killed or it can get a good card onto the battlefield (it's a may clause FYI, so chalice and endless aren't dead if you get them). It fits into the mid-size build and curves well if you are playing a 6-8 Eldrazi lands and no accel cards. Additionally, decks that play Reshaper are most likely colorless only and run jitte. It doesn't replace endbringer, but it does compete with metamorph. So far it seems that metamorph is preferred over reshaper.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Can you please explain me Matter Reshaper?

I mean if it gets Thorn Jitte or Revoker ok, but Chalice and Endless are suicidical if found.
All other scenario it's just a cantrip where you might, instead, Drop a Phyrexian Metamorph on TSK or on an Endbringer to draw a honest 5 cards per turn

It's "may", you can still choose to put the card into your hand.


When Matter Reshaper dies, reveal the top card of your library. You may put that card onto the battlefield if it's a permanent card with converted mana cost 3 or less. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.

So at worst, it cantrips. It might be better to play some combination of Metamorph and the Revoker, I'm honestly not sure. Just what I'm planning to playtest, though obviously Gerry T did well with the Reshapers in SCG Philly as well. I based most of my list off his initial decklist.

[Fox]

Matter Reshaper is a cantrip when killed or it can get a good card onto the battlefield (it's a may clause FYI, so chalice and endless aren't dead if you get them). It fits into the mid-size build and curves well if you are playing a 6-8 Eldrazi lands and no accel cards. Additionally, decks that play Reshaper are most likely colorless only and run jitte. It doesn't replace endbringer, but it does compete with metamorph. So far it seems that metamorph is preferred over reshaper.

There is no deck manipulation and Matter Reshaper doesn't solve any creature problems. This card is a conditional baleful strix that doesn't fly or trade in combat, but is colorless and eldrazi. You are better off having a relevant creature in this slot than wasting draw on reshaper and crossing fingers on a blind draw that turns into a relevant creature answer.

The reason metamorph is far and away better than reshaper is that it can blank a goyf, and most importantly: it can copy a thorn while being cast as a creature - it is just better than sphere of resistance [and 3-ball for that matter] with more utility.

[MaximumC]

There is no deck manipulation and Matter Reshaper doesn't solve any creature problems. This card is a conditional baleful strix that doesn't fly or trade in combat, but is colorless and eldrazi. You are better off having a relevant creature in this slot than wasting draw on reshaper and crossing fingers on a blind draw that turns into a relevant creature answer.

The reason metamorph is far and away better than reshaper is that it can blank a goyf, and most importantly: it can copy a thorn while being cast as a creature - it is just better than sphere of resistance [and 3-ball for that matter] with more utility.

Fox, I totally agree with this - Reshaper seems pretty bad in a vacuum. If it dies, you get a random card and maybe the equivalent of 3 mana. But, it does not die, it's a vanilla 3/2 that the opponent just ignores. Seems pretty boring, huh?

Well, not when it costs 1 mana. I mean, that's why things like Sky Spawner are decent. If you've got an Eye on the table, this sucker is like a Wild Nacatl that cantrips. Once you realize that -- and you realize that it gives the Eldrazi deck another low-curve play for turns 1 and 2 to supplement Mimic - you can kind of see why some people choose it.

Me? I suspect you're better off without it, and instead running something with more impact. But, I can understand why it works.

[Fox]

Fox, I totally agree with this - Reshaper seems pretty bad in a vacuum. If it dies, you get a random card and maybe the equivalent of 3 mana. But, it does not die, it's a vanilla 3/2 that the opponent just ignores. Seems pretty boring, huh?

Well, not when it costs 1 mana. I mean, that's why things like Sky Spawner are decent. If you've got an Eye on the table, this sucker is like a Wild Nacatl that cantrips. Once you realize that -- and you realize that it gives the Eldrazi deck another low-curve play for turns 1 and 2 to supplement Mimic - you can kind of see why some people choose it.

Me? I suspect you're better off without it, and instead running something with more impact. But, I can understand why it works.
This is the issue, are you porting the modern deck to legacy or are you winning in legacy because you can land lock pieces? This is the decision fork for colorless eldrazi, you either:
-play lower eldrazi + temple, and suicide them into combat with jitte (because turn3 smasher/mimic isn't really how you get wins in legacy)
-play neither of those two, and have a deck that focuses on quick, repeatable, and stackable lock pieces into TKS and the inevitability of eye

Each approach has its own strengths, but I think the numbers really aren't there when it comes to win % and powering out the little eldrazi.

[Poron]

everything about the cc of Reshaper is also true for Displacer.

Simply Displacer + TSK are a combo that closes every match alone, while pumping Mimics to 4/4.

in that slot I mucb rather play Displacer or Mutamorph.

[MGB]

If you play 4 Cavern, 2 Mox, 2-3 Karakas and maybe some Adarkar Wastes you can play Displacer and it's generally better in *most* matchups than Reshaper.

Reshaper only has the edge over Mimic in matchups vs. stuff like Jund or Shardless where they have lots of spot removal and the games become grindy and card-advantage-dependent.

I'm personally playing the white version with the aforementioned cards for the foreseeable future.

[mosaic]

@cab0747
q1 - It was weekly local (about 17 living being). Well, my meta is pretty well developed. All current DTB are present, Lands, SnS, 12 Post (UG), Reanimator, D&T too, even MUD guy shows up from time to time along with NicFit and such. I would like to have at least shot against them.
Revoker - has many targets, Deathrite Shamans in particular, one often does not have Warping Wail for them
Displacer - all around, in every game against Goyfs which are inevitebly going to be 5/6 at minimum against this deck -> board stall -> bad news for Eldrazi decks, also answer flipped Delvers, Anglers, Batterskulls etc. Not even mentioning those obvious spaghetti monsters or tricks with our owns TKS, Metamorph etc. He just open windows, which is often, just what the deck need to finish the game.
Endbringer - again all around, diversify my options against needles/revokers, also respectable body which Mimic can work with.
These are not some fringe situations, that is quite common at least from my experience. One does not have every time CotV @1 and is forced to play "fair".
I do not play online.

q2 - Sure I am thinking about Crucible, as MD.Ghost suggested, as it also open waste lock line in plans, helps you "cycle" City etc. I am going to try it.
As for Revokers, they did not performed well - in matches I played, hence I was thinking along the lines, +1x Crucible + 2-3 x Lodestone Golems in place of 3x Revokers - they will be in sideboard (not sure what to cut for 3rd Lodestone Golem) - but it is just for experiment - it might end up as a sideboard plan for matchups where Revokers do next to nothing. However they are pretty often relevant, so I might just try Crucible.

q3 - Well, that would be more Barook's area of expertise, however I do not like it for exactly what he wrote just below your post - slow and cost green. Adding green to already "two" colored deck (colorless + white - requirements) might be too much. Do not get me wrong, World Breaker would be (is) awesome, but I think it just introduce us to more land screws and/or slow downs. With this in mind, against Bridge, Blood Moons decks, there are those 2x Oblivion Rings, Ratchet Bomb and All is Dust as only outs. White has one of the best hate cards, hence I opt for white with Plains. (my SB is far from optimal)
Surely Endbringer is not the main plan against bridge, but he is/was only one capable off in main after the bridge hits the table. He is an out in stall games, drawing cards, killing, stopping attacks. Also he is just a bad ugly guy on our side.



@Cire
Best idea how to play World Breakers I have seen, I like it better then Endbringers on paper. Just the thing is, no basics, and is slower (this deck has next to no interaction cards). In case Trini vs Thorn are both viable, Trini is a bit more disruptive against creature decks (for instance D&T - they will not have always vials and we play also revokers) but hurts you too in other matchups, both have it's merits. Your idea is something I would like to test as well, but will stay on white at least for a while.

[Fox]

Displacer is colored eldrazi, and does go in the same deck as Temple. That deck will look significantly different than colorless eldrazi; colored lists trade-off reliably landing t1 lock pieces for displacer control. Very different mechanisms of obtaining wins with some overlap on thorn/chalice openers. I want to say barook is the one to talk to about displacers.

[keys]

If you play 4 Cavern, 2 Mox, 2-3 Karakas and maybe some Adarkar Wastes you can play Displacer and it's generally better in *most* matchups than Reshaper.

Reshaper only has the edge over Mimic in matchups vs. stuff like Jund or Shardless where they have lots of spot removal and the games become grindy and card-advantage-dependent.

I'm personally playing the white version with the aforementioned cards for the foreseeable future.

Displacer just seems low impact for the cost (if you're not playing Drowner/Dreamweaver, etc.), when Reshaper or Metamorph are good enough in that slot.

If I'm incorporating a light splash for extra utility, I'd either go with black via Urborg, to reduce life loss on Dismember/Tomb, combo with Eye, and for some SB cards like Leyline, OR green via Elvish Spirit Guide and possibly a Forest or two to play World Breaker (which is at least an out to a resolved Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge)

[Cire]

There is no deck manipulation and Matter Reshaper doesn't solve any creature problems. This card is a conditional baleful strix that doesn't fly or trade in combat, but is colorless and eldrazi. You are better off having a relevant creature in this slot than wasting draw on reshaper and crossing fingers on a blind draw that turns into a relevant creature answer.

The reason metamorph is far and away better than reshaper is that it can blank a goyf, and most importantly: it can copy a thorn while being cast as a creature - it is just better than sphere of resistance [and 3-ball for that matter] with more utility.

I'm not arguing for reshapper - I just included it in the skeleton (and more specifically in the mid-size option) because that's what people are doing.

If I was going to make a list instead of a skeleton that includes all the options I myself would probably argue that this might be something worth testing for a variety of reasons (Worldbreakers for bridges, Displacer+TKS, jitte to offset life loss, Metamorph for Eldrazi/Lock Pieces, Mishra's Factory to carry jitte, etc):

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Urborg

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Warping Wail
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jitte
2 World Breaker
2 Metamorph
2 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Mox Diamond
1 Dismember
1 Endbringer

And that is still over 60 by two cards. Running 7 sources for green and white not including Karakas (Mox, Horizon and Caverns). Can't really say if it is enough or not until I cut two more cards and start testing.

[cab0747]

Ok, so dumb question (and since we don;t have a primer, I am not really too afraid to ask) what MUs does Winter Orb come in?

I am a little lost on it's purpose here.

[Dice_Box]

Early tec for Miracles or other ramp decks. Dring it in against Lands just to piss us off too. We can sometimes get around it with Mox, but once you have Orb and Thorns on the table it's a fucking nightmare for us. Same for other control decks.

[Poron]

Against Blood Moon, Orb, Back to Basics and whatever a couple of Kozilek Channeler and Mox Diamond seal the deal.. that + 1untap + 1 Mox is a 5 mana Eldrazi per turn each turn.. more than enough.

Also let's consider Displacer and Mimic against Orbs decks. you just 3 mana to "duplicate" a fattie into Mimic and win with just the board

[ZEROorDIE]

So I've been pretty set on the colorless shops/stompy build since the spoilers, but something I've also been tossing around since then was a more controlling version using displacer+Armageddon

I played Armageddon stax for a short period and while it was definitely lacking, displacer and the eldrazi lands might help finish it off. Lodestone followed up by Armageddon was almost always gg, but rebuilding if it wasn't always caused issues.

Food for thought. Hopefully I'll have some time to do some theory crafting this weekend if anyone is interested.

[ZEROorDIE]

Also, Gerry T put an article up on scg, buy its premium. If anyone has premium would you mind copying the transcript here? Do not do this please. Quick summaries are fine. Dice.

From the preview, it seems to be about how bad mox diamond was

[Poron]

That's pretty much illegal and a breach of copyrights.. not sure the Moderators would be happy.

This said: if artifact and enchantments hate is too much to deal with.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Mox Diamond
4 Horizon Canopy (for WorldBreaker, Displacer or card advantage in the worst case scenario)

and 3 Krosan Grip in SB

[Gheizen64]

GerryT shitting all over mox diamond, thanks god.

[H]

I have one of those "1 month free Premium" cards at home. If no one gets around to it, I'll use one and let you guys know what he said when I get a chance.

[Cire]

That's pretty much illegal and a breach of copyrights.. not sure the Moderators would be happy.

This said: if artifact and enchantments hate is too much to deal with.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Mox Diamond
4 Horizon Canopy (for WorldBreaker, Displacer or card advantage in the worst case scenario)

and 3 Krosan Grip in SB

If you're not running KG, I don't think you need the SSG - 6-8 sources of Green (4 Caverns, 2 Diamond, 0-2 Other) are enough for Worldbreaker itself since you are waiting till you have 7 mana open anyway, so around turn 4-5, maybe turn 3 at best. White you probably need more sources closer to 8-9 since you are playing displacer around turn 2.

[Sansian]

Also, Gerry T put an article up on scg, buy its premium. If anyone has premium would you mind copying the transcript here? Do not do this please. Quick summaries are fine. Dice.

From the preview, it seems to be about how bad mox diamond was

Cashed in a premium card for this... Basically the list looks a lot more like the list that Lejay has been using on MODO with some differences in numbers and Karakas/Ghost Quarter instead of Mishra's factory. I'm reluctant to do a list-dump for obvious reasons. I'm pretty stoked to buy in once April rolls around. I've got everything except for the creature-base and the Temples and Eyes-- I'm willing to accept them as SP due to the salty tears of modern players. Mostly I'm just excited to get to use Elvish Spirit Guides in a deck.

One thing worth noting is that Gerry has put forward that three is his preferred number of City of Traitors...

[Dice_Box]

One thing worth noting is that Gerry has put forward that three is his preferred number of City of Traitors...
Something Painter learnt long ago. They just suck in your openers and in multiples. Unless your running Crucible, then your clear.

[ZEROorDIE]

Also, Gerry T put an article up on scg, buy its premium. If anyone has premium would you mind copying the transcript here? Do not do this please. Quick summaries are fine. Dice.


From the preview, it seems to be about how bad mox diamond was


That's pretty much illegal and a breach of copyrights.. not sure the Moderators would be happy.

This said: if artifact and enchantments hate is too much to deal with.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Mox Diamond
4 Horizon Canopy (for WorldBreaker, Displacer or card advantage in the worst case scenario)

and 3 Krosan Grip in SB


My bad, I know better, I just got excited

[Gheizen64]

Cashed in a premium card for this... Basically the list looks a lot more like the list that Lejay has been using on MODO with some differences in numbers and Karakas/Ghost Quarter instead of Mishra's factory. I'm reluctant to do a list-dump for obvious reasons. I'm pretty stoked to buy in once April rolls around. I've got everything except for the creature-base and the Temples and Eyes-- I'm willing to accept them as SP due to the salty tears of modern players. Mostly I'm just excited to get to use Elvish Spirit Guides in a deck.

One thing worth noting is that Gerry has put forward that three is his preferred number of City of Traitors...

Don't understand the Ghost quarters tbh. What would they be for? Anti-moon tech? Anti-mirror? Anti-lands?

[Barook]

Cashed in a premium card for this... Basically the list looks a lot more like the list that Lejay has been using on MODO with some differences in numbers and Karakas/Ghost Quarter instead of Mishra's factory. I'm reluctant to do a list-dump for obvious reasons. I'm pretty stoked to buy in once April rolls around. I've got everything except for the creature-base and the Temples and Eyes-- I'm willing to accept them as SP due to the salty tears of modern players. Mostly I'm just excited to get to use Elvish Spirit Guides in a deck.

One thing worth noting is that Gerry has put forward that three is his preferred number of City of Traitors...
Lejay's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379769#online)

Does he still run a playset of Thorns MD? 3 Cities sound alot more reasonable. I hate Cities, but they're a necessary evil imho.

I also fail to see how Ghost Quarters are supposed to be better than Mishra's Factory.

[Cire]

Lejay's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379769#online)


I also fail to see how Ghost Quarters are supposed to be better than Mishra's Factory.

Might be tech against the mirror?

[Sansian]

Lejay's list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/379769#online)

Does he still run a playset of Thorns MD? 3 Cities sound alot more reasonable. I hate Cities, but they're a necessary evil imho.

I also fail to see how Ghost Quarters are supposed to be better than Mishra's Factory.

1 Ghost Quarter and two Karakas with access to another Karakas from the side. Only two Thorns. He seems rather blase on the topic of Factories because they don't "...solve any problems..." I believe the idea behind Karakas and GQ is to shore up the horrible Lands matchup. Also I just realized that a big difference between this list and Lejay's is the use of Revokers, Gerry seems to think that voker is a bit weak because it is often too afraid to go into the red zone. I feel like a doofus having to dance around this so much-- I'm sure someone will place on modo with something very similar to this list at some point in the next few days.

[Gheizen64]

Might be tech against the mirror?

If he also play wastes they are anti-moon tech. Still, factories look just better to me.

[iostream]

The problem with the lock artifacts in general is that they're all rather situational, except for Chalice, which is good versus nearly everything except for the Stoneforge Mystic decks. For instance, Trinisphere can often be completely ignored by Sneak and Show, even though it's backbreaking versus Storm. You can cook up examples like this for basically every lock piece that anyone has ever suggested in this thread.

I'm not convinced you need any more lock pieces than just 4 Chalices in the main. I ran that and 2 Trinisphere for a while, which was/still is pretty standard, and I shaved it to 1 without feeling like I lost much of an edge versus combo, and I wouldn't be surprised if 0 is the right number. It may be correct that instead of running sideboard spheres, you address the combo matchups using more targeted kinds of hate (Mindbreak Trap, Grafdigger's Cage, etc.)

[MGB]

So what are the major changes Gerry made to the list? Besides cutting Mox Diamond, I presume?

[Poron]

completly agree with him when he refuses Factories.

80% of the time, useless.
I do prefer Horizon Canopy/Karakas

[Holly]

Hello everyone,

as I do like writing I started with a primer..
So far I've only covered lands, colorless creatures and lock pieces.
If I get somewhat positive resonance and you want me to write the rest (all 5 splashes, matchups, mulligan decisions etc.) I'd do it.
Also I would obviously rework on what I've written, fix spelling and grammatical errors along with adding card tags...

Edit: Just saw that the formatting is horrible after copy & paste.. will getting fixed aswell.

Edit2: Reposted together with the rest.

[MaximumC]

You forgot World Breaker.

[Holly]

World Breaker is green and as such will have his part written when talking about splashing green.
Same reason I didn't mentioned Displacer yet or Skyspawner or various others.

[Cire]

Really like the list so far! In terms of lands you might want to include Horizon Canopy which is played in the W, G and W/G versions. Also I guess Ghost Quarter as Wasteland 5-6 against bloodmoon.dec and mirror.

[Holly]

Ghostquarter is included.
You're right about Canopy though that kinda falls in the category of "painland" though for sure deserves special mention.
Also gonna add Sea Gate Wreckage.

[Cire]

Additionally even without covering the splashes you might want to cover the common removal pieces:

Dismember
Warping Wail
Jitte
All is Dust

[Holly]

As I said, I restricted myself to lands, creatures and lockpieces to get some feedback wether you actually want me to write more :)

If so then yes those and other colorless options would be analyzed aswell as sideboard choices before going over the benefit each color adds.

[Cire]

You're awesome :smile:

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Holly: That list great! As a suggestion I would try to remove the bias in some card descriptions and keep the description of each card choice as standalone pros and cons. This would mean avoiding cross-card value judgments. An example of this is when you use Thorn as the baseline comparison for some of the other disruptive elements, and the other disruptive element descriptions sort of read "but you should probably just be playing Thorns." Your description of Ghost Quarter is another example of this. Overall just try to be completely objective on the costs and benefits on the card choices and matchups where they are good and bad. Thanks for putting time into this!

Also I would vote on this as the "untouchable" core of the aggro version of this deck, which I am assuming is going to be what this archetype is. I have't seen any list without these 28 cards. It's worth noting that there is already a thread in established for rampy versions, so this is truly the aggro Eldrazi deck we are discussing here.

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors

[Cire]

@ Patrunkenphat7 - I would subtract 1 Temple as some people are debating going down to 3 Temples, and I would eliminate Mimic as some decks go more midrange and use 4 displacers and more distruption instead of mimic (or splash blue for other cards).

[Patrunkenphat7]

@ Patrunkenphat7 - I would subtract 1 Temple as some people are debating going down to 3 Temples, and I would eliminate Mimic as some decks go more midrange and use 4 displacers and more distruption instead of mimic (or splash blue for other cards).

That is a good suggestion on Mimics if they are not being run in color-heavy versions. I can't believe people are running less than 4 Temple, but I guess if they are then it can't be stock!

[ZEROorDIE]

Also, I would pullout the part relating this to MUD, the only way they are similar is that you are trying to land a t1 lock piece. Otherwise MUD is much more of a combo-control, silver bullet based deck. We play no rocks, no metalworker accel and no 8+cmc creatures. This is stompy through and through.

But I also agree with Pat, less bias in the descriptions. Also be specific, ex. The thorn description. Be specific about the fact that it's crap against creature decks and loses power in the late game unless played out in multiples.

[MD.Ghost]

@Holly, Great Work, will PM you till monday.


Also I would vote on this as the "untouchable" core of the aggro version of this deck, which I am assuming is going to be what this archetype is. I have't seen any list without these 28 cards. It's worth noting that there is already a thread in established for rampy versions, so this is truly the aggro Eldrazi deck we are discussing here.

4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors

I would Add 3rd City and 3rd Eye if we talk about a core (for Aggro) , which also allow you to go further.

Any Aggro build need 4 Mimics and want to drop them (and lockpieces) as fast as possible.

-----
Cutting Temple is a no go, if your build contains less Eldrazi (i mentioned a White Build with Stoneforge, or Barooks GW build or builds with Lodestone Golem) the first Land that is reduced is Eye, because you can't cast non Eldrazi stuff with it. Temple at worst is 1 Mana and since we talk about an Eldrazi deck, this Land should be a 4off.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Holly, Great Work, will PM you till monday.



I would Add 3rd City and 3rd Eye if we talk about a core (for Aggro) , which also allow you to go further.

Any Aggro build need 4 Mimics and want to drop them (and lockpieces) as fast as possible.

-----
Cutting Temple is a no go, if your build contains less Eldrazi (i mentioned a White Build with Stoneforge, or Barooks GW build or builds with Lodestone Golem) the first Land that is reduced is Eye, because you can't cast non Eldrazi stuff with it. Temple at worst is 1 Mana and since we talk about an Eldrazi deck, this Land should be a 4off.

I agree with everything you said; the only reason I didn't include 3rd City or 3rd Eye is that I have seen some high performing lists playing 2 of one. I think 3rd City is safe to consider "stock," but Paul Lynch and crew are some of the originators of the deck, and they are running 2 Eye right now. I personally like 3 Eye though.

[Holly]

Alright, I'm going to write the rest and try to keep it as unbiased as possible.
Will post again once I've got everything (probably around Tuesday) so you can help me point out more bias/mistakes/oversees and it'll be finished during the week :)

[Sugus32]

I'm looking for a stock list, but every single one I saw so far is different from the others. Spirits, trinispheres, non-eldrazi creatures... seems there are so many flex slots that the deck doesn´t appear to have a well defined core.
Could anyone post what a "stock list" would look like, please?

[Hopo]

I'm looking for a stock list, but every single one I saw so far is different from the others. Spirits, trinispheres, non-eldrazi creatures... seems there are so many flex slots that the deck doesn´t appear to have a well defined core.
Could anyone post what a "stock list" would look like, please?

As you already found out, it doesn't even exist. People play different lists because it's a new deck and finding the optimal iterations takes time.

If you want colorless, try the recent scg top8 lists. If you want to splash, look around magic online for successful lists.

[Dice_Box]

I'm looking for a stock list, but every single one I saw so far is different from the others. Spirits, trinispheres, non-eldrazi creatures... seems there are so many flex slots that the deck doesn´t appear to have a well defined core.
Could anyone post what a "stock list" would look like, please?
This is the reason I don't think the deck is ready for the Established forum. Numbers what they are, I don't think my views will matter in a month.

[cab0747]

I'm looking for a stock list, but every single one I saw so far is different from the others. Spirits, trinispheres, non-eldrazi creatures... seems there are so many flex slots that the deck doesn´t appear to have a well defined core.
Could anyone post what a "stock list" would look like, please?

The problem is, there is no stock list. This has been bugging me since I first heard about the deck and decided to put it together.

I cant tell you how many iteration of this deck I have saved on MTGO and how many times I have shuffled cards in and out of the paper version. However, I may pick up the last few cards online to just jam games on MTGO until I find something I really like as it may be a month or so before a "stock list" for anyone one of the 3 versions is agreed upon.

[bruizar]

I think this is about as stock as the colorless eldrazi list gets:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer
2 Flex Slots (Serum Powder, Spirit Guide, Mox Diamond, Matter Reshaper, Revoker, extra Warping Wail, Coercive Portal or some other off-beat card.)

--

Factory vs Wasteland is debatable, but if the plan is aggro I vote for Factory. You could go with 23 lands, but I think 24 is more safe.

[RhoxWarMonk]

Wasteland has been way more popular than Mishra's factory though, at least in the decks that have been doing very well in the last few weeks. Gerry T talks about that in his article at SCG as well.

I also don't know if 4 Thorns are correct. Weapons main deck or side? I also wouldn't play less than 24 lands, 25 is even debatable IMO. Still a lot of questions on how the optimal deck is and I still believe that the Reshaper is better than the Revoker (but I know I'm in the minority).

Really great to see a deck in the Developmental section having such traction though :) Awesome!

[bruizar]

Factory could be replaced for wasteland if u think its really unmissable (although i think it shouldnt be used proactively, only strategically). What is stock isnt necrssarily optimal, its just the informally agreed upon / concensus framework. The list should be shaved to perfection over time, but that requires more tournaments and more people trying out things. For now, i think the colorless build is close enough to a stock list though. Barook's gw build could be used as the stock colored list. Aside of those builds the other colored lists are too experimental to be called stock as of now imo

The experimental splashes include:
UR eldrazi aggro
RG eldrazi
Leyline Processors
UW/UWg drowner displacer eldrazi

[MGB]

I'd say that 4 Wastelands are "stock". The 4 Wasteland lists have been way more successful than any other version thus far.

If you're looking for a "stock" list:

4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping Wail
3 Dismember
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

[Barook]

Barook's gw build could be used as the stock colored list.
The list is still in flux and I'm kinda disatisfied with it because it lacks space for City of Traitors (unless you want to sacrifice utility in form of Wasteland/Factory). Don't get me wrong, I like World Breaker and I'm a firm believer of Displacer, but I wouldn't recommend my current version in the current metagame. A Mono C version splashing white for Displacer might be better right now.

If Gerry T. came to the same conclusion about 2 Karakas MD/1 SB, that's reassuring. What was his exact reason to shit on Mox Diamond, though?

Edit: I also wonder about the viability of Lotus Petal in the versions running white in place of the Spirit Guides. Anti-synergy with Thorn post-T1 might hamper it somewhat, though.

[Sansian]

The list is still in flux and I'm kinda disatisfied with it because it lacks space for City of Traitors (unless you want to sacrifice utility in form of Wasteland/Factory). Don't get me wrong, I like World Breaker and I'm a firm believer of Displacer, but I wouldn't recommend my current version in the current metagame. A Mono C version splashing white for Displacer might be better right now.

If Gerry T. came to the same conclusion about 2 Karakas MD/1 SB, that's reassuring. What was his exact reason to shit on Mox Diamond, though?

Edit: I also wonder about the viability of Lotus Petal in the versions running white in place of the Spirit Guides. Anti-synergy with Thorn post-T1 might hamper it somewhat, though.

He didn't care for the awkward spots that diamond puts you in, and that mostly it was just fast mana that dropped a lock t1 or fought off a daze. Guides do a better job at fighting daze because you force them to burn a daze that otherwise they may keep to power a FoW. Also them popping a daze forces them to return a land and have fewer resources for a brainstorm. Petal is a strictly worse guide and a worse diamond by those metrics.

[Fuzzy]

I didn't read the entire thread, but anyone had considered Tangle Wire as additional lock piece?

[square_two]

The experimental splashes include:
UR eldrazi aggro
RG eldrazi
Leyline Processors
UW/UWg drowner displacer eldrazi

Does anyone have a link to a leyline processor list? Is that maindecking Leyline of the Void? If so, color me intrigued. I could see it being possible in a build with Urborg. Of course, that also makes me want to throw in Helm, cause why not. Feel like that's trading the whole "most consistent stompy deck" back into MullIntoOblivion.dec though.

Still. I just played a match online and managed to get both Leyline and Chalice=1 turn 1 against Reanimator. Scoop.

[.Ix]

I didn't read the entire thread, but anyone had considered Tangle Wire as additional lock piece?

I run 2-3. They seem better than the last thorn, or more Trinispheres. It can help get me back in the game against early delvers on the draw, or stall some boards long enough for Endbringer mana to come in and take over the game.

[Barook]

As for Displacer, my opinion on the matter (since several people commented on it about asking me and the primer coming up, so maybe some information could be recycled):

Displacer requires white to cast it, which requires additional white sources aside from Cavern, but imho, it's worth the investment since it's probably the best Eldrazi you can run after TKS (yes, stronger than Smasher, which would be third place in that case).

A little overview what it does and where he does it:

- Miracles: Hardly relevant. Sometimes the combo with TKS to stop Miracle triggers could come up, but more often than not, either piece is killed by a hail of StP or gets Terminus'ed before relevant.
- Shardless BUG: Stops Goyf and Creeping Tar Pit. Not so hot against Baleful Strix, though. Dies to Bolt.
- Grixis Delver: Can hardly keep up with their token generation. Does nothing against TNN if they run it. Stops Gurmag and Delver.
- Mirror: Decent at stopping oppossing Eldrazi.
- Storm: Does nothing other than beat
- Lands: Your prime weapon and best bet to stop Marit Lage. Karakas is only so-so between Wasteland and Port.
- Sneak and Show: Excellent card - makes the match significantly easier
- Reanimator: Good at stopping Griselbee. But they have targets that can cause you problems, like Grave Titan, Jin Gitaxis or Tidesprout Tyrant.
- Dredge: Mediocre. Can kill a token or two or stop an Ichorid from attacking. Nothing amazing.
- D&T: Prime kill target for them. Stops their flyers, kills Batterskull tokens and makes their equipment a waste of mana and tempo.
- Infect: Excellent board control card which can single-handely win the game for you.

That's probably the most important stuff, with some decks having overlap (e.g. Goyf and Delver in BUG Delver). Or course it would get even better with SB Containment Priest, but the white requirement for Priest is probably too high if you want to go with a more streamlined, colorless version splashing for Displacer.

[bruizar]

Does anyone have a link to a leyline processor list? Is that maindecking Leyline of the Void? If so, color me intrigued. I could see it being possible in a build with Urborg. Of course, that also makes me want to throw in Helm, cause why not. Feel like that's trading the whole "most consistent stompy deck" back into MullIntoOblivion.dec though.

Still. I just played a match online and managed to get both Leyline and Chalice=1 turn 1 against Reanimator. Scoop.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Eye of Ugin
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Llanowar Wastes

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Wasteland Strangler
4 Reality Smasher
3 Blight Herder
1 World Breaker
3 Dismember
3 Warping Wail


SB:
Gemstone Cavern, Helm of Obedience, Leyline of Sanctity
Good BG sideboard cards

[LMental]

Could someone post Gerry T's updated list? I'm eager to see it.

[Fox]

The issue with Tangle Wire @Fuzzy is that the deck secretly struggles to jump from 2 non-eldrazi mana to 3 and [especially] 4 non-eldrazi mana. For most win % you're looking for repeatable lock piece plays (playing through discard and/or counterspells) starting on your first turn. Secondarily you're looking for non-overlapping lock pieces that let you deploy eldrazi (mainly TKS) - this is why sphere, 3-ball, tangle wire are best left out. Not only will these stunt your clock, they also all run into thorn - and somewhere in there a city is probably dying. The optimal package right now looks like Chalice/Thorn/Metamorph/Revoker, which (aside from repeat thorns) don't hit each other. The weakness of this package are enemy 2-drop creatures (pyro/goyf/SFM), and this is probably the most important issue for colorless eldrazi to overcome.

[Barook]

The optimal package right now looks like Chalice/Thorn/Metamorph/Revoker, which (aside from repeat thorns) don't hit each other. The weakness of this package are enemy 2-drop creatures (pyro/goyf/SFM), and this is probably the most important issue for colorless eldrazi to overcome.
Metamorph still costs at least 3 mana. :confused:

What's the current list you're on, Fox?

Edit: Also, wouldn't Lodestone Golem slot better into your deck (probably for Endless One) when you already run Thorn and Metamorph?

[keys]

Revokers are the only non Eldrazi I'm playing, and I think they're better off in the sideboard. Otherwise you're just not getting full value from your manabase and that's a big part of what makes the deck consistent.

[Water_Wizard]

How is everyone handling True-Name Nemesis?

TNN has been a major thorn in my side, especially with equipment.

Ratchet Bomb is too slow. All is Dust gets countered.

Thoughts?

I considered E. Bridge, but that stalls us too, unless we want to Endbringer.

[Barook]

How is everyone handling True-Name Nemesis?

TNN has been a major thorn in my side, especially with equipment.

Ratchet Bomb is too slow. All is Dust gets countered.

Thoughts?

I considered E. Bridge, but that stalls us too, unless we want to Endbringer.
TNN is a real bitch to deal with - it's basically Dust or Bust. Lost me quite a few games whenever it appeared.

Aside from the very expensive All to Dust, I had some success against TNN with SoFaI while experimenting with Stoneforges. Take that as you will.

[bruizar]

How is everyone handling True-Name Nemesis?

TNN has been a major thorn in my side, especially with equipment.

Ratchet Bomb is too slow. All is Dust gets countered.

Thoughts?

I considered E. Bridge, but that stalls us too, unless we want to Endbringer.

I'm on the all is dust plan

[Fox]

Metamorph still costs at least 3 mana. :confused:

What's the current list you're on, Fox?

Edit: Also, wouldn't Lodestone Golem slot better into your deck (probably for Endless One) when you already run Thorn and Metamorph?

I posted the rough draft a couple pages back. While Metamorph is 3 mana (and 2 life which is significant with tomb use), I think it's still the best option. Thorn #2 would cost 3 mana anyways and you can also blank a goyf, making it one of the few lock pieces that can stabilize the midgame. The issue with lodestone is that it doesn't really answer the enemy 2-drop question in my deck, and the other lock pieces should have already shut off risk from combo.

[Poron]

Mox Diamond, Horizon Canopy into Krosan Grips (3x) for Moat/Humility/Bridges/annoying things

[Water_Wizard]

@ Barook
@ bruizar

- How many copies of AiD do you run? 2? Tutoring with Eye is hard - you need 6 lands in play minimum (Eye plus 2 Sol) and Ancient Tomb activations are painful while getting beat by a TNN.

I was considering Contagion Engine, but its potentially slower that AiD.

I considered the normal TNN sweepers:
Golgari Charm
Zealous Persecution
Marsh Casulties
and the mana requirements are all too complex.

However, Toxic Deluge works and is only 1 black, plus shores up a lot of other match-ups. Dark Ritual is awesome. Discard fits very well with TKS and Smasher's discard requirement. 1 casting cost discard could replace Chalice (requiring fewer Sol lands and more room for black mana). Winter Orb could become a lock piece with Mox Diamond or other artifact mana + sol lands. Thorn is also a lock option vs. combo.

Bearer of Silence looks amazing in certain match-ups. Kozilek's Shrieker has potential. I may test a "suicide black" version of this deck.

[mistercakes]

@ Barook
@ bruizar

- How many copies of AiD do you run? 2? Tutoring with Eye is hard - you need 6 lands in play minimum (Eye plus 2 Sol) and Ancient Tomb activations are painful while getting beat by a TNN.

I was considering Contagion Engine, but its potentially slower that AiD.

I considered the normal TNN sweepers:
Golgari Charm
Zealous Persecution
Marsh Casulties
and the mana requirements are all too complex.

However, Toxic Deluge works and is only 1 black, plus shores up a lot of other match-ups. Dark Ritual is awesome. Discard fits very well with TKS and Smasher's discard requirement. 1 casting cost discard could replace Chalice (requiring fewer Sol lands and more room for black mana). Winter Orb could become a lock piece with Mox Diamond or other artifact mana + sol lands. Thorn is also a lock option vs. combo.

Bearer of Silence looks amazing in certain match-ups. Kozilek's Shrieker has potential. I may test a "suicide black" version of this deck.

if you guys are really worried about true name nemesis, you can run caltrops :)

[Fox]

if you guys are really worried about true name nemesis, you can run caltrops :)
Deals damage so it's off the table. You need tabernacle-type destroy effect, sacrifice effect, -1/-1 effects, or "damage cannot be prevented" clause. Otherwise you'd have to donate caltrops.

[MD.Ghost]

How is everyone handling True-Name Nemesis?

TNN has been a major thorn in my side, especially with equipment.

TNN is only a Problem with Equipment, which means you can also try to prevent that case. TNN alone is annoying but is only good if you have one (non Smasher) Attacker. Since Eldrazi tend to overpower TNNs 3/1 Body (Smasher, Seer, Endless One, Endbringer and a pumped Mimic) a single TNN will only be a "Wall".

I normally bring All is Dust and don't see it gets countered often, because you (should!) have more than enough other cards that draw a counter before you play All is Dust. (Aggro) Eldrazi apply high pressure, so your Opponent should be in the position with one's back to the wall, which means that TNN is also only a defense Answer. Once your Opponent sit on TNN + Counters + Equipment something went wrong from the from the start till that situation.

TNN with Equipment should only be a thing vs Bladedecks, which means midrange-control, which means higher CC Cards should be alive (All is Dust, World Breaker for Equip, even Ugin/Karn can do something) for you. If we talk about TNN at Tempo decks, you can try:

Ratchet Bomb (slow but, if you play it early it should wait with 2+ counters for relevant targets)
Oblivion Stone/Nevinyrral's Disk (if TNN is a problem, your board isnt strong enough, so it is ok if something dies)
Forcefield (no "target", so it works vs Shroud/Hexproof and can also be usefull vs Mirror or annoying 20/20 Token :laugh: )
Phyrexian Metamorph copy TNN and start the race


After all, i would be more worried about Gofy and other Creatures.

[Water_Wizard]

Phyrexian Metamorph copy TNN and start the race
[/LIST]

After all, i would be more worried about Gofy and other Creatures.

I hadn't thought about copying with Metamorph. Thanks for your thorough response.

Dismember takes care of Goyf.

[Dice_Box]

I am checking the numbers. I can not see a "New" deck that has been this successful in the history of the data I have. That data goes back six years.