Rumour: Eternal Masters set in Summer/Fall 2016

[jrsthethird]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/41jadp/supplemental_fall_set_eternal_masters/

This has been going around the web for a day now. Obviously would have huge ramifications for Legacy. Discuss.

[Lemnear]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/41jadp/supplemental_fall_set_eternal_masters/

This has been going around the web for a day now. Obviously would have huge ramifications for Legacy. Discuss.

Thanks for bringing this to the board. Would be amazing to see reprints of FoW, Daze and shit for Legacy Players

[nevilshute]

I've been thinking something like this would be a no-brainer for Wizards as it would be tantamount to printing money.

The arguments I've heard against it, however, are:

1: if all chase-rares in Legacy, not on the reserved list, were reprinted it would drive the reserved list staple cards' prices through the roof. Think 1000$ Volcanics etc. this would make for an unsustainable format of haves and have nots.

2: they see Legacy as an unsustainable format in the long run due to the reserved list. So while printing something like Eternal Masters might generate huge profits in the short term, in the long run it will remove focus from Modern which is a more sustainable long term cash cow.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

A set targeted at Eternal formats doesn't necessarily have to be entirely reprints and could include new cards (a la Planechase/Commander/Conspiracy) that could filter right into Legacy/Vintage.

More than anything else, this would probably be the most interesting aspect of a hypothetical "Eternal Masters" set, where any all valuable reprints will be Mythics in $10 MSRP packs (look at how much that changed Goyf's price).

[lordofthepit]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/41jadp/supplemental_fall_set_eternal_masters/

This has been going around the web for a day now. Obviously would have huge ramifications for Legacy. Discuss.

I'm incredibly skeptical about this. While I think it's entirely possible that WOTC might consider an Eternal Masters set, the rumor currently originates from one person who I consider to have no credibility whatsoever. In fact, even if an Eternal Masters fall set is announced during the Pro Tour, I would be more inclined to consider this person got lucky with a prediction than that he actually had some legitimate insider knowledge.

Consider the following:

1) He claims he has insider knowledge because he overheard some vendors at GP Oakland, and it's doubtful that these vendors would know anything about scheduled releases.
2) His first post (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/40lfvn/just_a_rumor_i_heard_at_gp_oakland_eternal_masters/) on this temporary account seems like a wild rumor he throws out there with nothing to back it up, because that's in fact what it is.
3) He makes a post later (https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/40gj8y/modern_considering_buying_into_jund_but_getting/cyv4g3y) in which he predicts that Amulet and Twin are getting banned. In that same post, he mentions the Eternal Masters fall set once again. It seems to me that he's very intent on promoting this rumor for some reason, but without any credibility, no one will take him seriously. Since he has no reputation to lose, he throws out two potential Modern bans in hopes that he's correct.

There are a few problems with this:
- Modern cards are seemingly always banned, and even as someone who doesn't follow the format, it was absolutely clear that something from the Amulet Bloom deck was going to get banned. Plus he called the wrong card.
- If his insider knowledge comes from overhearing a conversation between vendors (who somehow had information about the fall set), that would presumably be the same source of his information on the B&R update. But vendors wouldn't have that information. His claim would be much more believable if he stated that he were a WOTC insider, as Eldrazi Spy did when he brought attention to the Overextended format.

[Dice_Box]

Information is poor on this, it could be anything from what he claims to something like Conspiracy take 2. Not that I would bitch about either but right now I am not holding my breath and I am not selling my cards.

[Sloshthedark]

the most unsettling would be if the part II. of the video would become true - new format, which would result into my interest in Mtg dying away with Legacy, a sort of tragedy or a relief - I have no illusions about Wotc or Scg but this would be the end without return

other than that I only care for financial reasons I have Fows, Wastelans, Karakases, 10+spare fetches I still own partialy as a "what if" to play occasional Vintage if someone lends me P9 while being a sort of stable investment, so I have to find out whether to not risk and unload stuff I don't play anyway or not...

I don't mind people getting their new cards but I'm sick of how the game is poorly managed and manipulated

[Barook]

My two cents on the matter:

This guy is clearly attention-whoring. I would take his info with a grain of salt. Especially his talk about a "fall set" is irritating since the MMA slot is in June.

However, the rumor about the summer set this year being Eternal Masters has been floating around in the internet for a while now, at least since the end of November/beginning of December, so I wouldn't completely dismiss it.

We'll probably know more around the middle of February (or beginning of February during the PT) when they announce this year's summer set.

As for a new format of "Legacy light" without RL cards: I would play that. D&T is 100% untouched by this and it's going to ruin people and their new, shittier shockland manabases like there's no tomorrow while Elves loses Cradle. Good times, good times!

[barcode]

Also heard this rumour.

[H]

I'm not buying this story at all.

That being said, I've maintained that the failure of Standard is the only hope of for the possibility of something like this. We could be witnessing just such a failure, but that hardly proves any reprints are coming.

As someone who owns a lot of cards (40+ Revised duals, 10 FBB duals, 11 Force of Wills, Power 9, a couple Tabernacles, etc...), I could care less about the prospect of "losing money." I'd happily trade some of the equity in my collection for more reasonable prices and therefor more players in the format. Before anyone starts in about "hording," realize that I often lend out 2-3 Legacy decks per event so kids who want to play can (and not garbage budget decks), plus I have 6 kids, the oldest two which I have been teaching to play.

As for non-RL Legacy, I don't know how I feel about that. It's probably better than Modern though, so at least it would have that going for it. I don't see it happening though. What I could see, and have predicted before, is probably in the distant future is Modern shifting from 8th Edition to M15 and up (i.e. the "new" new border).

All that, but still this rumor seems about bogus as possible. That doesn't prove it's not true, but it certainly doesn't make it believable. If this even has a grain of truth, my bet would be it's an FTV that maybe contains Force of Will and a few other things.

[nedleeds]

As someone who owns a lot of cards (40+ Revised duals, 10 FBB duals, 11 Force of Wills, Power 9, a couple Tabernacles, etc...), I could care less about the prospect of "losing money." I'd happily trade some of the equity in my collection for more reasonable prices and therefor more players in the format.

I think Modern Masters has proved that judicious reprinting doesn't impact original prices, I don't even think you'd lose money. Demand for rare cards so far outstrips the supply it would take a Chronicles level reprint to tank the value of Force of Will (and most 4 of's). The increased exposure and slight accessibility bump would more than make up for the squirt of supply. We're also in an age of the EDH Casual, these people soak up a way bigger amount of cards than you can imagine. Alpha / Beta Birds of Paradise, Swords to Plowshares and Wrath of God have done nothing but rocket skyward while they get reprinted yearly in one form or another. I own everything and I'm for judicious reprints of reserved list cards. The foil loop hole was actually fantastic for this purpose.

[Echelon]

I stopped the vid at "Is Eternal going to be a format that'll replace Legacy?".

As far as I'm concerned the guy can be considered a Muggle.

[H]

I think Modern Masters has proved that judicious reprinting doesn't impact original prices, I don't even think you'd lose money. Demand for rare cards so far outstrips the supply it would take a Chronicles level reprint to tank the value of Force of Will (and most 4 of's). The increased exposure and slight accessibility bump would more than make up for the squirt of supply. We're also in an age of the EDH Casual, these people soak up a way bigger amount of cards than you can imagine. Alpha / Beta Birds of Paradise, Swords to Plowshares and Wrath of God have done nothing but rocket skyward while they get reprinted yearly in one form or another. I own everything and I'm for judicious reprints of reserved list cards. The foil loop hole was actually fantastic for this purpose.

Yeah, I'm with you. I didn't mean to imply that my card values would actually take much of a loss. Even if they did decease somewhat, the idea of "losing money" is kind of ridiculous, because I bought them to play a game, not an investment. I don't complain that the car I bought is worth less now, or the video game or anything else. I bought it to use it, I used it and got my value. If I didn't feel they were worth the price, I wouldn't have bought them in the first place. The fact that they are worth anything used it kind of great, in and of itself.

The reserve list is a joke. There will come a day when it is just gone. That day is probably not coming so soon, but it will when Wizards really needs the money. What Wizards is really scared of is not being able to sell Standard, not some vague allusion to a collector's law-suit.

[Cire]

What Wizards is really scared of is not being able to sell Standard, not some vague allusion to a collector's law-suit.

I keep hearing this, but what is the legal theory behind this mythological lawsuit? I mean, I am going to assume that a percentage of legacy players on these boards are actual attorneys when I ask . . . how would you even argue this? The reserved list is an implied contract that the collectors relied on as investors? Would that even have a chance of holding up?

[jmlima]

... The reserved list is an implied contract that the collectors relied on as investors? Would that even have a chance of holding up?

Yes re a contract.

Holding up in court? Sure, your lawyer against a corporation's lawyers on a matter of pure financial speculation (ie, no moral upper-ground as in tobacco law suits). It would remind me of the Simpson's lawyer.

[GundamGuy]

Put me in the skeptical camp. I just don't see it happening.

[bruizar]

This guy is full of shit. He doesn't know what he's talking about. The price jump on Field of Dreams was because of the discussion on this forum. However, all the other price jumps were intentional manipulations to steal cards on pucatrade.

[Julian23]

From everything I hear about Pucatrade, it itself appears to be the biggest scam in the commnity right now. I wonder when that bubble's gonna burst.

[bruizar]

Pucatrade has a ripple effect throughout every other magic site which is causing huge price spikes that does not completely decay. Mindslicer on MCM is now a €4/5 card, it was 20 cents two days ago before it shot up to $50. Also mtgstocks is such a shit website because its SO easy to influence. All these price crawlers look at the price of the offer, not the price of the last sale. That's the whole f***ing problem with Magic's prices these last years.

[bruizar]

For those not in the know. Here's how you steal cards from innocent people:

(1) Look for cheap, preferably old cards on want lists
(2) Identify which card is cheap and in low enough supply that you can temporarily buy out the major sites that are being crawled by mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites
(3) Buy them up
(4) Relist them for $1000,-
(5) Let Pucatrade, mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites adjust its market-rate to your newly forged pump-n-dump
(6) Start sending out the crap card on Pucatrade to people who have it on their want list and are probably unaware of wth just happened
(7) Use your pucapoints to buy legit cards instead of MTG pennystocks.

---

When the dust settles, you f*ck a few people over, and the price starts plummeting. Magic being Magic, it never fully plummets so the price gain still sticks and you at least get a 400% gain on your leftovers.

[Stevestamopz]

I keep hearing this, but what is the legal theory behind this mythological lawsuit? I mean, I am going to assume that a percentage of legacy players on these boards are actual attorneys when I ask . . . how would you even argue this? The reserved list is an implied contract that the collectors relied on as investors? Would that even have a chance of holding up?


Yes re a contract.

Holding up in court? Sure, your lawyer against a corporation's lawyers on a matter of pure financial speculation (ie, no moral upper-ground as in tobacco law suits). It would remind me of the Simpson's lawyer.

Disagree. The RL (I believe it even states as such on the RL page) is a company policy and as such WOTC can do what they like with it.

Even if we entertain the notion that the Reserved List is not a company policy and is somehow a contract (takes a bit of mental gymnastics, but just go with it), I have a hard time believing that any of the elements required for a contract to be made between WOTC and an individual are present when that person/business buys a Tropical Island, if the contract is 'we won't reprint these cards.' Nowhere on the "Official Reprint Policy" does it say anything about 'your money is safe.' It just says 'to maintain your confidence in the game as a collectible'
It doesn't say anything about your money/secondary market, and blah blah blah, you get where I'm going with this. It's hard to write much more because I'm on my phone but I hope I've been clear enough.

[Barook]

For those not in the know. Here's how you steal cards from innocent people:

(1) Look for cheap, preferably old cards on want lists
(2) Identify which card is cheap and in low enough supply that you can temporarily buy out the major sites that are being crawled by mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites
(3) Buy them up
(4) Relist them for $1000,-
(5) Let Pucatrade, mtgstocks and other price aggregation sites adjust its market-rate to your newly forged pump-n-dump
(6) Start sending out the crap card on Pucatrade to people who have it on their want list and are probably unaware of wth just happened
(7) Use your pucapoints to buy legit cards instead of MTG pennystocks.

---

When the dust settles, you f*ck a few people over, and the price starts plummeting. Magic being Magic, it never fully plummets so the price gain still sticks and you at least get a 400% gain on your leftovers.
This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

[Dice_Box]

The issues with the RL is this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel). Sadly I don't know where the shoe lands if this was to become an issue, maybe one day I will find out.

[bruizar]

This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

I hope Pucatrade gets ddos'ed or something terrible happens so that it disappears. It's very unhealthy to the game. The problem is that the effects ripple through the rest of the market. Fear and greed drives markets and this is very true for magic. Prices on SCG, TCGplayer, MCM and all other notable sites copy each other even if the pump up penny stock has long been abandoned. The inflated prices left in the wake of the pump n dump remain forever like scars.

[Paul7926]

This sounds absolutely terrifying and bad for the game.

IIRC, is Pucatrade even sustainable in the long run? From what I hear, the system is going to crash sooner or later since it's a pyramid scheme relying on new people to buy into this bullshit.

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

[MaximumC]

Let's wait until we have more than some random person online with an MS-Paint manipulated picture of Modern Masters before we deplete brain cells thinking about what WotC is doing.

There's already a thread for reserve-list free Legacy, isn't there? That's where the discussion should happen.

[bruizar]

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

or you know, how the pucatrade team can simply generate a few extra puca points on their own accounts and pay their people with cards. (or steal cards themselves)

[MaximumC]

or you know, how the pucatrade team can simply generate a few extra puca points on their own accounts and pay their people with cards. (or steal cards themselves)

This just in: every new currency that gets developed has to re-invent the wheel when it comes to stopping Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, and market manipulation.

Good speed, Pucapoints.

EDIT: Funny thing is, if you did link Pucapoints to cash and then used an auction system, the thing would work fine. Particularly as a way to seemlessly convert between MTGO and physical cards. But that's not how it works so LOL

[Koby]

I don't take too much stock in rumors of an Eternal set on the internet.

I do take stock in what is happening at the dealer tables at Grand Prixes.

Has anyone noticed the lack of non-Reserve List Legacy staples being purchased?
Wonder why that is?

(Rhetorically: why does SCG have fewer Legacy events in the first half of this year compared to prior years?)

EDIT: ruleslawyers (see below)

[Dice_Box]

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/270216_philadelphia_fact_sheet.html

Legacy Open.

[GreatWhale]

Has anyone noticed the lack of non-Reserve List Legacy staples not being purchased?
Wonder why that is?


What?

[Finn]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

[GundamGuy]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

I think the point is that Legacy would stop being a format... and Eternal (or whatever....) would start being an format... Think Extended -> Modern...

I also don't buy any of this...

[Cire]

I don't believe that there is enough daylight between Modern and Legacy for another format. Nor do I see a need in the community for such an animal. Wizards are clearly having fun manipulating Modern. What purpose would this competing format serve?

A format with Pod, Twin and Bloom plus caveat that "eternal cards" from future sets can be included (Council's Judgement, True-Name) - that would be hilarious :rolleyes::tongue:

[Chatto]

The issues with the RL is this (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel). Sadly I don't know where the shoe lands if this was to become an issue, maybe one day I will find out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company wants to make money of their OWN product, you can just 'estoppel' them based on the fact they once said to never reprint certain cards?

[GundamGuy]

The problem with pucatrade is that you can't 'get out'.

You get points by either buying them with real money or trading your cards to people for an amount of points that is set by the site(see above for how dodgy that is).

You can get cards by spending your points.

You can't convert your points back to cash.

In reality you end up with a ton of points and the only way to do anything is to trade for cards. Now you can only 'ask' for cards so even having 100 million points will not get you that black lotus if nobody is willing to trade it to you.

So there you sit with a 'wants' list that isn't going to be fulfilled and a balance of 'points' that mean nothing outside of pucatrade and can't be turned into what you want.

I know, I thought it was a good idea until I used it for a while.

Oh gosh... I had no idea how awful PucaTrade actually is... it seems like a really bad idea wrapped up in a nice looking package.

[Cire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a company wants to make money of their OWN product, you can just 'estoppel' them based on the fact they once said to never reprint certain cards?

Pretty sure the argument will be implied contract. People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance. Those expectations and actions create a contract even though that the contract wasn't written down. Implied contracts can be just as enforceable as ones written down. By getting rid of that policy wizards breaches the contract and the damages would be for those whose cards were devalued to seek money to recoup on their loss.

Not saying that I buy that argument - but that's the only one I can see that seems plausible.

[MaximumC]

Pretty sure the argument will be implied contract. People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance. Those expectations and actions create a contract even though that the contract wasn't written down. Implied contracts can be just as enforceable as ones written down. By getting rid of that policy wizards breaches the contract and the damages would be for those whose cards were devalued to seek money to recoup on their loss.

Not saying that I buy that argument - but that's the only one I can see that seems plausible.

Well, the term "implied contract" gets into that muddy quasi-contract quasi-tort area, but basically I think the claim is promissory or equitable estoppel. You made a promise, I relied to my detriment, and equity requires you to keep your word.

Dunno how that would go (reprints so far havn't done much to curb prices) but I guess they figure, "Why bother?"

Remember, they can always just print Snow Duals if they really wanted to. Reserve list is a red herring.

[hymnyou]

Although I would be excited to see this come out, and makes the most sense for wizards- my main argument against this is that there is no 'mystery' grand prix spot on the schedule.

If this set was going to happen I would assume they would have a grand prix draft thing like modern masters, because it would arguably bring in just as much volume for attendance if not more as a draft/limited set.
I dont think the set would be aimed specifically for legacy, it would have staples from EDH and Vintage as well to make draft more interesting and feed all eternal formats card pool. Also eternal formats would see new cards as we did from conspiracy, which would be a win. Also Modern would get some reprints through this as well I would assume. I definitly do not see this idea ironing out to be some sort of legacy reprint set.

Maro has confirmed there will not be another conspiracy set this summer. I am just praying its not some stupid fucking unhinged carnival unset shit, which is actually what I believe we will probably be seeing this summer unfortunately. I hope I am wrong.

[Ace/Homebrew]

People may argue that when they purchased cards, they purchased on the reliance that the cards will go up in price given Wizards policy - and that wizards put up that policy with the expectation that people will purchase cards with that said reliance.

IANAL, but I do not believe anyone can claim the cards were purchased "on the reliance the cards will go up in price", only that they were purchased because they will not lose value due to reprints. The market will do what it does (whether that is drive prices up or down) and a customer buying cards off the reserved list with the RL policy in mind would be incorrect to think they could recover money from Wizards if the value of their cards plummets for reasons other than reprints.

[Crimhead]

I am just praying its not some stupid fucking unhinged carnival unset shit, which is actually what I believe we will probably be seeing this summer unfortunately. I hope I am wrong.Bingo! This is all an enormous miscommunication. The actual summer special will be Unternal Masters.

[Stuart]

(For the sake of not derailing this thread too much, I won't contribute to the RL legality discussion.)

Is it safe to assume that if this set didn't include RL stuff, we'd just see a huge influx of new players on Burn, DnT, and Merfolk? Getting more players at Legacy events would be nice, but without duals, I can't imagine how many doors this would open to people who currently feel priced out . . .

Likewise, I'm wondering what positive financial impact we'd really see from this. If Force, Wasteland, etc are printed at mythic and there are suddenly lots of players who want them, will prices really go down from where they currently are?

I'm not opposed to the idea of Eternal Masters. In a magical world, it would make Wizards a bunch of money, which might temporarily reduce shareholder pressure and let them focus on designing good new cards. Likewise, we'd probably see new players, which is a good thing. However, I'm not convinced this would do wonders for existing Legacy/Vintage players.

[Barook]

Maro has confirmed there will not be another conspiracy set this summer. I am just praying its not some stupid fucking unhinged carnival unset shit, which is actually what I believe we will probably be seeing this summer unfortunately. I hope I am wrong.
No Conspiracy set this summer rises the chance of an Eternal Masters set, though. While Maro is a huge fan of Un-Sets, they sold like shit, so that's a no-go.

[phonics]

Even if it is a bonafide eternal reprint set, history shows us that they aren't serious about addressing this issue so it will do little do alleviate prices. No point in even beginning to care until wotc starts to.

[Barook]

Even if it is a bonafide eternal reprint set, history shows us that they aren't serious about addressing this issue so it will do little do alleviate prices. No point in even beginning to care until wotc starts to.
Prices of the reprints are probably not going to dent paper prices much while RL staples are going to skyrocket.

It certainly could make the difference for MTGO, though. Port's price alone is insane and a reprint, even at Mythic, would crash it from the most expensive card on MTGO to a 10-20$ card. Literally the same thing happened with LED.

[ScottW]

What if Wizards collected X amount of RL cards and then included them in packs similar to the expeditions? Not sure if that's possible but would allow some kid to crack open a pack with an Underground Sea. On second thought, maybe that's not a good idea.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What if Wizards collected X amount of RL cards and then included them in packs similar to the expeditions? Not sure if that's possible but would allow some kid to crack open a pack with an Underground Sea. On second thought, maybe that's not a good idea.

Definitely possible! That was actually done for Zendikar Classic.
Although I believe the 'hidden treasures' were rarer to pull than the Expeditions are, and were only included in the first wave of product (to guarantee they would be opened at release events).

[Mr.C]

Nowhere on the reserved list does it mention value, though... Either way, it's a moot point. Eventually either counterfeits will get good enough, or people won't give a shit about Legacy. Either way, we lost.

[jrsthethird]

The foil loop hole was actually fantastic for this purpose.

I actually called the Expedition idea as a way to reprint foil dual lands a few years ago. Then they doubled down on the RL after the FTV: Mox Diamond fiasco.

[Mr Miagi]

Good fakes are already quite heavily present on market (I've seen far to many crisp mint revised duals (whole sets of them) in people's binders) so yes, I trust our Chinese overlords to save legacy so everyone can play.
Thank you China.
I'd much rather give money to WOTC, but apparently they don't want it so.. China it is :laugh::eyebrow:

[Darkenslight]

Bingo! This is all an enormous miscommunication. The actual summer special will be Unternal Masters.

Please bring me black-bordered Giant Fan and Ambiguity. :D

[H]

Read from this what you will, but MaRo posted this on his blog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/137731890838/is-this-years-summer-special-set-something-old-or).

As cryptic as it comes, but if it were wholly untrue, why even comment?

Even so, I'm still pretty doubtful...

[GundamGuy]

Read from this what you will, but MaRo posted this on his blog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/137731890838/is-this-years-summer-special-set-something-old-or).

As cryptic as it comes, but if it were wholly untrue, why even comment?

Even so, I'm still pretty doubtful...

Because MaRo is the biggest troll in all of magic?

I wouldn't read anything into this.

[rufus]

Read from this what you will, but MaRo posted this on his blog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/137731890838/is-this-years-summer-special-set-something-old-or).

As cryptic as it comes, but if it were wholly untrue, why even comment?

Even so, I'm still pretty doubtful...

I expect something borrowed and something blue will be included in the set too.

[H]

Because MaRo is the biggest troll in all of magic?

I wouldn't read anything into this.

Well, yeah, that is true.

I'm not particularly worried, or anything really. Like I said before, I own plenty of stuff and am not looking to make a profit off anything. I would like to be able to afford some foil Force of Wills and Dazes (more that I dislike foils in the old border) though, so I can't say I wouldn't be interested in the set, if it were to come out though. It would be pretty neat if some of the random junk I am missing, like Imperial Recruiter, or Grim Tutor were included, since I don't see any value in buying them for the prices they are now.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It'll probably be something like Planechase... The idea is old, but the cards are new. :rolleyes:

[GundamGuy]

It'll probably be something like Planechase... The idea is old, but the cards are new. :rolleyes:

Hasn't every one of these special sets had both new cards and reprints? That's why I think MaRo said "Yes :)"

[Quasim0ff]

Read from this what you will, but MaRo posted this on his blog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/137731890838/is-this-years-summer-special-set-something-old-or).

As cryptic as it comes, but if it were wholly untrue, why even comment?

Even so, I'm still pretty doubtful...

"Is it something new or something old?"
"Yes. It is something new or something old. :)"

This is really this most non-answer one can give. None of the information he provides is information... At all.

Besides; More FoW, More wastelands as well as more Ports would definitely be nice, even if we just got Judge Ports and Expe Wastelands.

[hymnyou]

Because MaRo is the biggest troll in all of magic?

I wouldn't read anything into this.

Maro has been answering questions about unhinged like crazy on his blog for past couple months and since we have not seen one in awhile, it made me think we could be seeing one this summer.
This proves there will not be a unhinged set this summer which is great.

[iamajellydonut]

inb4 lack of duals basically means "edh masters".

[Undomian]

inb4 lack of duals basically means "edh masters".

I'll be looking forward to this being about as "eternal" as the Legacy Cube is Legacy (without any old-border cards).

[ESG]

- If his insider knowledge comes from overhearing a conversation between vendors (who somehow had information about the fall set), that would presumably be the same source of his information on the B&R update. But vendors wouldn't have that information. His claim would be much more believable if he stated that he were a WOTC insider, as Eldrazi Spy did when he brought attention to the Overextended format.

I'm not any more convinced that his information is true, but I do think there's a chance big vendors would find out before the rest of us. Just as an example, here is a link to an old article and a relevant excerpt:

Insider Trading - The Cost of Cards: Mr. Bleiweiss goes to Washington (Part 2 of 3)
by Ben Bleiweiss
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18824


A few weeks ago Aaron Forsythe contacted me regarding a meeting that he wanted me to attend at the Wizards of the Coast headquarters. I wasn't told the topic for this meeting but we arranged for me to be in the offices on January 18th - at which point I would sign an NDA be debriefed on the subject matter at-hand and then have meetings with people across several departments at Wizards of the Coast.

There were three "outsiders" that were brought in for this meeting: myself Stephen Menendian and Eric Reasoner. The main meeting was scheduled for the afternoon and I spent the early part of the day discussing my thoughts about some of the ancillary Magic products (Duel Decks Planechase Intro Packs etc) with a couple of Wizards employees. We broke for lunch and then the big meeting began - a meeting with us three consultants and about a dozen people from Wizards about the Reserved List.

Signing an NDA doesn't necessarily prevent you from acting on information. The contract a person signs can vary significantly. I'm not implying that such a thing has occurred with this Eternal Masters set, but secret meetings such as this one do occur. Also, we shouldn't discount the fact that WOTC has had a rash of leaks recently.

Edit: As far as I can deduce, this meeting took place January 18, 2010.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

I'm not any more convinced that his information is true, but I do think there's a chance big vendors would find out before the rest of us.

I remember hearing on some podcasts back in 2014, before PAX and the announcing of fetches in KTK, that there was talk between vendors and some people suspected of being WOTC employees telling them to sell off their onslaught fetches because of the impending reprint. Also, after glancing at the price history, the onslaught fetches did also start to dip in price before the announcement.

I can't say that what the person on Reddit said is true, but this also isn't the first time something supposedly has been overheard being discussed with vendors.

[Capt4in]

Here's some grist for the rumor mill - the official WotC page on the reserved list now gives a 404 page not found error.

http://magic.wizards.com/go/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

[CptHaddock]

Here's some grist for the rumor mill - the official WotC page on the reserved list now gives a 404 page not found error.

http://magic.wizards.com/go/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy


Before people get too tin foily, it seems like what happened was the the old servers were shut down (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/422jgc/archivewizardscom_articles_are_no_longer/) without any of other infrastructure in place to support the move to new servers (surprise huh?).

[Dice_Box]

Its an issue with the servers when they closed down the old archives. They did not set up the redirects correctly. This is not anything to read into. This will be fixed soon. Also its been down for about a day already.

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/422jgc/archivewizardscom_articles_are_no_longer/

[Barook]

According to some WotC employee:


Someone had a hard on for turning off the old servers. The content still exists, but nobody put redirects in place before turning the servers off. Sorry man, I know it'll be fixed soon (tm)
http://i.imgur.com/F0fFGIH.jpg

I can live with that. :laugh:

[MaximumC]

According to some WotC employee:


http://i.imgur.com/F0fFGIH.jpg

I can live with that. :laugh:

I did not expect to see that combination of words put together in my life and I am glad that I was wrong.

[Lemnear]

My post of the day ... brilliant.

[thecrav]

WotC fucks up something computer related. Film at 11.

[CorwinB]

WotC fucks up something computer related. Film at 11.

Can we get Mickael Bay on that ?

[Barook]

Can anybody check if Wizards have trademarked anything regarding Eternal Masters/Legacy Masters or something similiar?

[Octopusman]

Can anybody check if Wizards have trademarked anything regarding Eternal Masters/Legacy Masters or something similiar?

Trademark search shows nothing for Eternal Masters.

Someone registered a domain name eternalmasters.com on January 19th 2016.

[Octopusman]

Trademark search shows nothing for Eternal Masters.

Someone registered a domain name eternalmasters.com on January 19th 2016.

"Legacy Master" trademark belongs to: WESTERN AND SOUTHERN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY, THE CORPORATION OHIO

[TsumiBand]

"Legacy Master" trademark belongs to: WESTERN AND SOUTHERN LIFE INSURANCE COMPANY, THE CORPORATION OHIO

"What kind of life insurance do you guys sell"
"Both kinds -- Southern and Western!"

OT -- don't hold your breath

[T-101]

edit - I can't read.

[Capt4in]

Yes re a contract.

Holding up in court? Sure, your lawyer against a corporation's lawyers on a matter of pure financial speculation (ie, no moral upper-ground as in tobacco law suits). It would remind me of the Simpson's lawyer.

I'm only a law student and this isn't advice but the other option would be a tort suit in fraudulent/negligent misrepresentation, which doesn't require you to prove a contract and deals more with the reliance of the innocent party. I still doubt it would be successful though.

Edit: I also heard the rumor in person from a couple people well before it was making the rounds on reddit. Not sure how reliable those sources are, but I traded some modern staples I wasn't using for a couple extra duals just in case there's a spike, though not enough for the manabase of a whole new deck.

[tescrin]

other option would be a tort suit in fraudulent/negligent misrepresentation,

I figure you could also do fraudulent advertising. "We won't reprint this stuff" promise when it comes to buying product that is supposed to be collectible would indeed seem fraudulent, and it's a promise that you'd expect them to keep given that you probably bought product under that guise, from them or from others.

It's not the vendor's fault (secondary market in this case) that these people bought a product with a promise or guarantee, it's wizards fault regardless of the time frame in which it was purchased. The idea that it wouldn't hold up in court seems odd to me.

I feel like the only real rebuttle to that is that the super-expensive stuff that they didn't promise not to reprint would be a counterexample of how, despite the list, there are cards that hold their value reasonably.

_____

Related to, but a different topic, I'm unsure that prices would plummet. We see that Fetches have rebounded quite well, for example. Polluted Delta is only 25/35 now on Ebay, but that's what the Zendikar fetches were a couple years ago. They would also likely only "cash in" a bit at a time, like they do with Goyfs and similar.

[hymnyou]

Yesterday Jan.24th on Blogatog

huandamonia asked: Are you allowed to make cards that are strictly better than those on the reserved list?

Maro: They have to do something in addition that’s new but yes.

[TsumiBand]

Yesterday Jan.24th on Blogatog

huandamonia asked: Are you allowed to make cards that are strictly better than those on the reserved list?

Maro: They have to do something in addition that’s new but yes.

This usually means they have no compunction about printing a strictly better Afiya Grove. It never means "Snow Duals" or "Triple Lands" or "Shitty Card Creation Thread Duals". Remember remember the Fork of November (okay it was Reverberate, and it was released in July, but whatever) -- people with a vested interest in the RP wrung their hands over a similar card with a functional change, even those there have been plenty of "better than Thunder Spirits" for years. Nobody cares about Thunder Spirit, but print "at least as good as Fork" and EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MIIIINDS

EDIT: inb4 "urrr sky spirit not on RP" bc I meant Thunder, but really the point is there are many "non format pillars" on the RP that suck ass that nobody cares if they get lapped or obviated because they're not duals or Power.

[simdude]

This usually means they have no compunction about printing a strictly better Afiya Grove. It never means "Snow Duals" or "Triple Lands" or "Shitty Card Creation Thread Duals". Remember remember the Fork of November (okay it was Reverberate, and it was released in July, but whatever) -- people with a vested interest in the RP wrung their hands over a similar card with a functional change, even those there have been plenty of "better than Sky Spirits" for years. Nobody cares about Sky Spirit, but print "at least as good as Fork" and EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MIIIINDS

I think this really captures the problem. There are many vocal players now who are against the reserve list but when push came to shove every toe-in-the-water attempt they've made (Negator, Diamond, and Reverberate) has been met with enough backlash that they've thrown up their hands and said fine we can make a perfectly fine game without caring about this. Unfortunately you don't get constant re-do's when companies take risks and they see each of those risks as failures.

[jrsthethird]

They shouldn't have done the toe-in-the-water bullshit to begin with. No Mox Diamond, no Negator, just jump in with your "premiums ok" policy and let the hoarders whine. When they see that limited-release product is ok, they won't bat an eye at Mox Diamond or Reverberate anymore.

"MPR for this year: Play 20 tournaments, get a random foil dual land."

[chris_acheson]

I think this really captures the problem. There are many vocal players now who are against the reserve list but when push came to shove every toe-in-the-water attempt they've made (Negator, Diamond, and Reverberate) has been met with enough backlash that they've thrown up their hands and said fine we can make a perfectly fine game without caring about this. Unfortunately you don't get constant re-do's when companies take risks and they see each of those risks as failures.

I kinda doubt that those of us calling for the end of the Reserve List are the same ones that freak out about Negator/etc. You can't really pin this on "the players" or "the collectors" or "the stores". Both factions are a mix of all three.

[TsumiBand]

I kinda doubt that those of us calling for the end of the Reserve List are the same ones that freak out about Negator/etc. You can't really pin this on "the players" or "the collectors" or "the stores". Both factions are a mix of all three.

I think the OP is saying that even though many people want to see the RP gone, certain parties push back hard enough to ensure that it just doesn't happen. Doesn't really say *who* those people are, specifically.

[nevilshute]

So, I guess nothing was spoiled at the PT? I didn't get to watch but I am guessing it would have been all over the place by now if an Eternal Masters type set had been spoiled during the PT-coverage.

[Barook]

So, I guess nothing was spoiled at the PT? I didn't get to watch but I am guessing it would have been all over the place by now if an Eternal Masters type set had been spoiled during the PT-coverage.
Nope, no annoucement whatsoever. We might get the summer set announcement around this or next week, though, based on past releases.

[thecrav]

So, I guess nothing was spoiled at the PT?

Abrupt Decay promo was spoiled but that was leaked onto the internets weeks ago.

[Lothar Rendulic]

Does anyone have any speculation as to how much eternal masters would tank the value of the reprinted cards? Lets say for example force of will or wastelands?

Should I hold onto them or just sell?
I don't play legacy anymore, but I held onto my higher end cards for obvious reasons, but I don't want to sit on these cards if they are just going to lose most of their value.

[sjmcc13]

Does anyone have any speculation as to how much eternal masters would tank the value of the reprinted cards? Lets say for example force of will or wastelands?

Depends on print run size and rarity.

There is also the chance of a repeat of what happened with the Modern Masters sets and anything not re-printed goes up in value due to increased interest in the formats, causing a net increase in the format.

[iamajellydonut]

There is also the chance of a repeat of what happened with the Modern Masters sets and anything not re-printed goes up in value due to increased interest in the formats, causing a net increase in the format.

Which would require a reprint of duals.

Sooo...

[Mr Miagi]

I'm pretty sure that if this rummor ought to turn out realI'm betting it would be Online only.

[Julian23]

I don't think an Eternal Masters set would do too much to the value of reprinted cards.

[H]

I don't think an Eternal Masters set would do too much to the value of reprinted cards.

Yeah, if this actually happened, prices would drop very slightly in the short-term on actual staples, then rebound and be higher soon after (Tarmogoyf's price post MM for example). The only things that would be actually lowered are cards that are "artificially scarce," like things from low print-run sets that are low demand but even lower supply.

[nedleeds]

Still don't think it would dent the prices. The eternal player demand is ridiculous, the price per pack on these is pretty high, many folks don't want new bordered crap anyway, and EDH is a giant neckbeard fueled gravity well of random good card demand that could suck the Sun in. Mythic rarity also caps the circulation.

[phonics]

Still don't think it would dent the prices. The eternal player demand is ridiculous, the price per pack on these is pretty high, many folks don't want new bordered crap anyway, and EDH is a giant neckbeard fueled gravity well of random good card demand that could suck the Sun in. Mythic rarity also caps the circulation.

It would only drop if they were serious about dropping prices, ie. no inflated pack prices, not putting most expensive stuff only as mythic, not filling the set with worthless chaff and not doing limited print runs. None of that will ever happen though.

[Stuart]

not filling the set with worthless chaff

For constructed players, the unfortunate thing is that Masters sets are designed to be draftable. So yeah, if Eternal Masters happened we'd probably see some pretty strange cards (i.e. chaff) in the packs because they interact well with limited.

On a different note, it'd be interesting to see if/how Eternal Masters changes Legacy's culture. Presumably we'd see a bunch of players migrate from Standard and Modern (not because reprints makes it cheaper, but from excitement). While some fresh faces would be great, I'd be a little nervous about the attitudes they bring with them. Whenever I walk around the Standard and Modern tables in between rounds at my weekly Legacy events, everyone seems a lot colder, they call judges, make prickly comments, etc. That's a pretty stark contrast to the Legacy culture at any shop I've ever played in, and I wouldn't want to see that carry over if new players got into the format.

[MaximumC]

For constructed players, the unfortunate thing is that Masters sets are designed to be draftable. So yeah, if Eternal Masters happened we'd probably see some pretty strange cards (i.e. chaff) in the packs because they interact well with limited.

On a different note, it'd be interesting to see if/how Eternal Masters changes Legacy's culture. Presumably we'd see a bunch of players migrate from Standard and Modern (not because reprints makes it cheaper, but from excitement). While some fresh faces would be great, I'd be a little nervous about the attitudes they bring with them. Whenever I walk around the Standard and Modern tables in between rounds at my weekly Legacy events, everyone seems a lot colder, they call judges, make prickly comments, etc. That's a pretty stark contrast to the Legacy culture at any shop I've ever played in, and I wouldn't want to see that carry over if new players got into the format.

Eh, that's just a spiky culture. I doubt you'd see that kind of behavior at the REL levels that usually are used for Legacy events. When's the last time you went to a Legacy event with a Professional or Competitive REL?


I'm only a law student and this isn't advice but the other option would be a tort suit in fraudulent/negligent misrepresentation, which doesn't require you to prove a contract and deals more with the reliance of the innocent party. I still doubt it would be successful though.


Protip: Accusing someone who violates a promise/contract of fraud is usually a mistake. How on God's green earth do you expect to be able to prove the person made a promise with actual intent they would never keep it? This kind of claim is a fast track to Rule 12(b)(6) town.

No, the claim here is probably promissory estoppel or some kind of state law unlawful trade practice claim.

[nedleeds]

Reserved list is WotC current company policy. It's not a contract with anyone. They can change it just like they can allow or disallow jeans on casual Friday. You can bring a suit against any entity for just about anything in the United States. You would not win a suit for damages against WotC if they abolished or altered the policy.

https://blog.christopherburg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/darth-vader-i-am-altering-the-deal.png

[Dark Ritual]

If people could really sue for altering the reserved list I'm guessing they would have done so when it has had cards and such removed or added to it. Like say that WotC altered the list and kept all the quarter bin extraordinaires on the list such as pygmy hippo and aboroth, but removed P9, candelabra, workshop, bazaar, duals, and all the cards that people actually wanted. Would people be able to sue and win? Heavily doubt it ESPECIALLY if the cards they owned that had been on the list didn't go down in value after a reprint occurred on plateau and company, and I doubt they would because WotC is stingy as fuck when it comes to reprinting tarmogoyf and introducing very little supply when they reprint goyf, but that would be a hundred million more times true on cards like black lotus and workshop. They would reprint black lotus in tiny batches when they reprinted it and probably make it some super exclusive card that you got for top 8'ing worlds or something extremely difficult/they introduced under a hundred new black lotus into the market that would do nothing to affect the price of the old ABU copies.

Not going to believe this rumor until I hear it from WotC themselves. Even then I wouldn't be shocked at it being modo only/pretty irrelevant as that client couldn't bang a supermodel it's so pathetic.

[phonics]

If people could really sue for altering the reserved list I'm guessing they would have done so when it has had cards and such removed or added to it. Like say that WotC altered the list and kept all the quarter bin extraordinaires on the list such as pygmy hippo and aboroth, but removed P9, candelabra, workshop, bazaar, duals, and all the cards that people actually wanted. Would people be able to sue and win? Heavily doubt it ESPECIALLY if the cards they owned that had been on the list didn't go down in value after a reprint occurred on plateau and company, and I doubt they would because WotC is stingy as fuck when it comes to reprinting tarmogoyf and introducing very little supply when they reprint goyf, but that would be a hundred million more times true on cards like black lotus and workshop. They would reprint black lotus in tiny batches when they reprinted it and probably make it some super exclusive card that you got for top 8'ing worlds or something extremely difficult/they introduced under a hundred new black lotus into the market that would do nothing to affect the price of the old ABU copies.

Not going to believe this rumor until I hear it from WotC themselves. Even then I wouldn't be shocked at it being modo only/pretty irrelevant as that client couldn't bang a supermodel it's so pathetic.

Its probably they wouldn't want to deal with the avalanche of lawsuits alone that would come in they did it, like how scientology got their tax exempt status by flooding irs with lawsuits. Plus the 'breaking promises' bad pr doesnt jive with corporate. Eternal masters will come out when all the other sets stop printing money.

[Lemnear]

Its probably they wouldn't want to deal with the avalanche of lawsuits alone that would come in they did it, like how scientology got their tax exempt status by flooding irs with lawsuits. Plus the 'breaking promises' bad pr doesnt jive with corporate. Eternal masters will come out when all the other sets stop printing money.

Just slap an expire date on the RL promise and call it a day.

[phonics]

Just slap an expire date on the RL promise and call it a day.

Well the thing is they have no reason to do anything about it right now. As long as they continue to have 'best selling sets' one after another, they can keep the reserve list issue kept hidden in the back of the attic where those crazy old guys who only play vintage and legacy stay, which WOTC dont care about anyways. Well at least they are kind enough to keep them fed.

[JamieW89]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-eternal-masters-2016-02-15

Ugly art :\

[iamajellydonut]

Oh jeezus.

[thebastard2]

So the leaks are true. Maybe the new format will happen?

[Dice_Box]

So the leaks are true. Maybe the new format will happen?

The "New Format" was just a random stab in the dark by someone on YouTube, not a real rumour.

[Gabuts007]

So this be printed every 2 years now? Like the MM set

[jrsthethird]

Probably see Conspiracy 2 in 2018, and EM2 in 2020. They fulfill slightly similar roles, with the former focusing more on multiplayer casual with new printings, and the latter being all reprints and focused more towards competitive.

The apparently every-odd-year Modern Masters actually covers a majority of the card pool, so it seems more fitting as a reprint-only set to come out biannually.