Shadows over Innistrad [Archive] - Page 3

Richard Cheese

03-14-2016, 04:47 PM

What do you do with an emotionally driven, good at heart individual willing to break any rule, do anything that is needed to save those they swear to defend? What do you do with someone who is not just one dimensional, who seeks to do what is right, to help out the greater good and the masses, who will act selflessly when needed but who is always willing to step outside the ideals of what is right and what is wrong to do it? What if you have someone who will do what they think is best, even if that best does mean someone dies? What if they will do more than just be Red because Anger? What if someone really takes that anger, holds in deep inside themselves and uses it as their fuel and their compass as they do all they can serve those whom they love, respect and hold in great esteem? Now that's a complex and interesting ideal, not just "Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today."

(Also yes, I know you are teasing.)

So Deadpool?

MaximumC

03-14-2016, 04:51 PM

I'm pretty sure Cire's comment was made with tongue-in-cheek.

I keep seeing the "but equipping costs :3:" as what makes this card bad... The equipment stays on the creature and both transform together, right? It only becomes an issue if the creature is dealt with after the transformation.

I mean, it's pretty sweet on a Reckless Waif, but seems bad for Delver. I mean, it doesn't interact well with anything else Delver is trying to do. It's too expensive to re-equip to another creature after it flips, it reduces your instant/sorcery count to make it harder to flit Delver in the first place, it has to land turn 2 and be equipped or else Delver is gonna flip and it won't equip favorably.... etc etc.

Darkenslight

03-14-2016, 05:06 PM

Ashen Rider

I don't get that flavor. She doesn't look pissed. Why is there fire in the background, she is not a pyromancer? And the abilities don't reflect that she is a lithomancer.

The +2 Loot is good, I guess, although it is the weaker "red" form of looting.
The -2 has odd restrictions to tapped creatures and tapped artifacts? Tapped creatures can make sense, like Gideon 1.0, but why only tapped artifacts?
The ultimate is strong if you have a game-ending fatty in your library, especially Emrakul. (Maybe she is really trying to lure Emrakul to Innistrad? Maybe that's the reason why she and Emrakul vanished from Zendikar. She is also called "the Harbinger"! But I'd really hate to see Eldrazis already again.)

...That thing in the background?

That's Markov Manor. She just broke it. She's the harbinger of death to Sorin and his legacy.

She's really flavorful, digging into her fury to rain stony justice on Sorin's home plane.

As for her abilities, they're all okay, but that last one is nuts. I think she could viably see a home in a Miracles variant in Legacy, and Mardu/Boros Midrange elsewhere with a one-card-combo finisher.

MaximumC

03-14-2016, 05:20 PM

She's the harbinger of death to Sorin and his legacy.

She's the harbinger of whatever her ultimate brings out.

P.S. Emrakul

jrsthethird

03-14-2016, 05:44 PM

It looks like she's on stage at a pop concert or something with the lighting and what appear to be pyrotechnics in the background.

Nahiri, the Headbanger

sdematt

03-14-2016, 06:46 PM

I like this card a whole lot. Vindicate is crazy good, but sees little play because getting a 3 mana sorcery countered or somehow outmaneuvered is devastating. But this kinda only goes in esper.

But, in many of these BGx decks, not being able to kill Batterskull is huge. If they EOT vial in the Batterskull like on turn 3 and you haven't killed the summoning sick SFM, Batterskull wrecks you. Here, there's the possibility of nuking the Batterskull endstep, or just killing Jace in response to +0.

I even talked about a card exactly like this with friends and on the card creation. Instead speed non-land Vindicate for 3 life, but I expected it to be BBW. I'm not sad in the slightest, but I would have preferred the option to hit lands for 3 life, or nonland for no penalty. Oh well.

joven

03-14-2016, 08:52 PM

She's really flavorful, digging into her fury to rain stony justice on Sorin's home plane.

In general I would prefer a not-pissed Nahiri. I don't get and I don't like that she's pissed and that she takes it out on other people and worlds.
Also, too much fire and not enough stone for a lithomancer.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-15-2016, 05:46 AM

bruizar

03-15-2016, 05:55 AM

So there it is, a red 2/1 with no downside for R. He also gives all vampires madness. Take that jackal pup!

I really hoped that there would be some interesting interaction like vampire rouge -> Faerie Macabre; but nah and all transmute guys are horror, skelett or spirit, and no bloodrush vampire too.

Well maybe they print something...

Man, I LOVE that that ability. Pretty narrow but still very cool!

QBChaz

03-15-2016, 07:30 AM

Echelon

03-15-2016, 07:54 AM

So there it is, a red 2/1 with no downside for R. He also gives all vampires madness. Take that jackal pup!

It's complete and utter madness!

I don't really think this is the card to make Spirit Tribal a thing in legacy.

Yeah, that's the spirit!

Oh, wait...

They both work with Bloodghast though.

Darkenslight

03-15-2016, 08:14 AM

Tintechaines (French name)

1U
Creature - Spirit

Flash
Flying

When [cardname] enters the battlefield target Spirit gains hexproof til end of turn.

You may cast Spirit spells as though they had Flash.

2/1

I don't really think this is the card to make Spirit Tribal a thing in legacy.

Rough translation is Rattlechains.

It's actually an okay blocker for Delver. IT's just a shame it had to be Blue and not Green.

Echelon

03-15-2016, 08:24 AM

Rough translation is Rattlechains.

It'll probably be Rattler of Chains then, or something along those lines.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 08:53 AM

It'll probably be Rattler of Chains then, or something along those lines.

On a side note, I could probably get behind a card named "Of Rattled Chains".

rufus

03-15-2016, 08:57 AM

So there it is, a red 2/1 with no downside for R. He also gives all vampires madness. Take that jackal pup!

I really hoped that there would be some interesting interaction like vampire rouge -> Faerie Macabre; but nah and all transmute guys are horror, skelett or spirit, and no bloodrush vampire too.

...

Yeah, not much in the way of great vampire cards that you'd want to cast so "breaking" something like Smallpox or Zombie Infestation won't really pay off. Strangely there also aren't that many vampires with good graveyard synergies (just Bloodghast really.)

HdH_Cthulhu

03-15-2016, 10:34 AM

Yah its kinda sad. You need the new mad vampire, a discard outlet AND another vampire to mad him in! Thats the worst 3 card value combo ever -.-

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 10:59 AM

Playable? Definitely a card that will see play in Modern.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/367/635936318041873714.png

To the Slaughter :2::b:
Instant
Target player sacrifices a creature or planeswalker.
Delirium - Instead that player sacrifices a creature and a planeswalker.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 11:01 AM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_1Gtpcr07AE.png

Just a reminder that I don't inherently hate digital work. It's just that digital so frequently churns out such lazy pieces. I half expected this to be a shot of Avacyn in another "I have black eyes now" pose, but what we actually got was pretty chill.

Also, I don't think the card is gonna do wonders, but it's pretty oaky.

Edit: fukken Ace.

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 11:06 AM

Edit: fukken Ace.

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/arlinn-kord.png

Arlinn Kord :2::r::g:
Planeswalker - Arlinn
+1: Until eot, up to 1 target creature gets +2/+2, vigilance, and haste.
0: Poop out a 2/2 green wolf token, transform Arlinn.
Starts with 3 Loyalty.

Arlinn, Embraced by the Moon
Planeswalker - Arlinn
+1: Creatures you control get +1/+1 and trample until eot.
-1: Arlinn deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Transform Arlinn.
-6: Emblem: Creatures you control have haste and "tap: deal damage to target creature or player equal to power".

Darkenslight

03-15-2016, 11:07 AM

Finn

03-15-2016, 11:12 AM

Madness and Smallpox has some interesting interactions. Or it did. Does the new wording on madness still exile the card while Smallpox resolves? If so you can subvert the math on Pox and avoid discarding your last card with Smallpox.

Somehow I suspect that I am not the first to suggest this.

dsck

03-15-2016, 11:13 AM

03-15-2016, 11:16 AM

If only Odric cost 3, I could actually see trying him out in D&T as a fun-of. Not at 4 though.

That Planeswalker looks like a slightly upgraded Garruk Relentless. Probably see as much play though.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 11:18 AM

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/arlinn-kord.png

Now that we have an aggressively transforming werewolf planeswalker, I have to ask. Is she naked on the battlefield when she transforms back? Aside from werebear, all of the were-doodles seem to be decidedly lacking in purple stretch pants which I imagine. Considering that a significant portion of the population would be reliant such clothing, I'd consider that an untapped cash-cow.

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 11:22 AM

Now that we have an aggressively transforming werewolf planeswalker, I have to ask. Is she naked on the battlefield when she transforms back?
She can transform at will. So she's more like Superman/Spiderman than The Incredible Hulk. She finds a nice place and folds her outfit into a pile, covers it with some leaves...

Barook

03-15-2016, 11:23 AM

New Odric is up, and he's an interesting beast.

Still combat relevant with his ability and stats (3/3 for 3W), but man, there's a great puzzle out thyere somewhere. I can easily see him in a weird Ally deck as a Commander-type thing.
http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_0KtJV0DIju.png

Sadly one mana to expensive to fit the curve of D&T, but i could still see applications for it as bomb on top of the curve:

Thalia: First Strike
Serra Avenger: Vigilance, Flying
Flickerwisp: Flying
Mirran Crusader: Double Strike
Batterskull: Lifelink, Vigilance

Avenger + Thalia gives you flying first strikers that can swing AND defend. Not to mention what happens when you throw a Crusader in the mix instead. Making your whole team flying is huge. Odric can also be protected by Karakas.

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 11:25 AM

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/arlinn-kord.png

Arlinn Kord :2::r::g:
Planeswalker - Arlinn
+1: Until eot, up to 1 target creature gets +2/+2, vigilance, and haste.
0: Poop out a 2/2 green wolf token, transform Arlinn.
Starts with 3 Loyalty.

Arlinn, Embraced by the Moon
Planeswalker - Arlinn
+1: Creatures you control get +1/+1 and trample until eot.
-1: Arlinn deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Transform Arlinn.
-6: Emblem: Creatures you control have haste and "tap: deal damage to target creature or player equal to power".

I mean... they almost took Huntmaster of the Fells word for word and reprinted it. Same cost, basically same effects. It's not a creature itself anymore but it can flip on command. Seems... fine? Boring, but fine. I don't see any new combos or archetypes here.

Falkenrath Glutton on the other hand -- now THAT'S a spicy little number. Another 1 drop, 2 power Vampire is very welcome, and it's not a problem that he's red because there is a RB lord for that tribe. The Madness ability isn't a way to cheat out creatures, but it does make the cost: "Discard a card:" essentially free. This makes some cards dramatically better, namely Vampire Hounds and Heir of Falkenrath.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 11:25 AM

She can transform at will. So she's more like Superman/Spiderman than The Incredible Hulk. She finds a nice place and folds her outfit into a pile, covers it with some leaves...

But she has a piece of what was her tunic still strapped around her neck. So, even if she can transform at will, she clearly chooses not to transform in a neat and orderly fashion.

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 11:26 AM

But she has a piece of what was her tunic still strapped around her neck. So, even if she can transform at will, she clearly chooses not to transform in a neat and orderly fashion.

MTG The Source: ASKING THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

The important question is whether she tears out of her clothing, hulk-style, or if she dresses and undresses politely before turning into a raging murderbeast.

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 11:28 AM

But she has a piece of what was her tunic still strapped around her neck. So, even if she can transform at will, she clearly chooses not to transform in a neat and orderly fashion.

Proof? Why does a sense of style and fashion have to disappear just because you've gone feral?

Assuming that is her tail in the lower right corner, isn't that waaaaay too long for a werewolf tail?

GundamGuy

03-15-2016, 11:29 AM

The new art for Macabre Waltz is pretty good.

GundamGuy

03-15-2016, 11:33 AM

Proof? Why does a sense of style and fashion have to disappear just because you've gone feral?

Assuming that is her tail in the lower right corner, isn't that waaaaay too long for a werewolf tail?

How many werewolves have you seen, and did you ask them if they could stop raging for a moment so you could measure their tails?

Barook

03-15-2016, 11:35 AM

I mean... they almost took Huntmaster of the Fells word for word and reprinted it. Same cost, basically same effects. It's not a creature itself anymore but it can flip on command. Seems... fine? Boring, but fine. I don't see any new combos or archetypes here.

Falkenrath Glutton on the other hand -- now THAT'S a spicy little number. Another 1 drop, 2 power Vampire is very welcome, and it's not a problem that he's red because there is a RB lord for that tribe. The Madness ability isn't a way to cheat out creatures, but it does make the cost: "Discard a card:" essentially free. This makes some cards dramatically better, namely Vampire Hounds and Heir of Falkenrath.
LED Vampires? :eyebrow:

Arlinn seems alright. Her transforming abilities are the most relevant, the other stuff is merely a nice, added bonus.

Delvis

03-15-2016, 11:42 AM

Bright side of the new Vampire?

Combos with Tibalt. #wedidit

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 11:45 AM

How many werewolves have you seen?
Besides your mother? :tongue:

I took a look at the original art. Her tail is about the same length as her arm. Which appears to be keeping with the general direction of werewolf art on Innistrad.
And you are right, the Liliana art on Waltz is good. :smile:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241981&type=card

maharis

03-15-2016, 11:47 AM

Is Arlinn better for Big Zoo than Domri or Xenagos?

Dork, Knight, Arlinn +1 on your Knight seems really good

Making a Deathrite an attacking 3/4 that can still use its ability is nuts

Everything off the top becomes pure gas

And you can make a wolf to pick up equipment, transform and bolt. Looks like a ton of value.

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 11:49 AM

LED Vampires? :eyebrow:

I don't think LED is the droid you're looking for, but I think that's moving in the right direction. I don't think dumping a Vampire or two into play is the most powerful thing you can do in Legacy.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 11:57 AM

Proof? Why does a sense of style and fashion have to disappear just because you've gone feral?

"Don't correct us if we're wrong. We've got a scene going." (http://media.oglaf.com/comic/ragtrade.jpg)

The new art for Macabre Waltz is pretty good.

I mean "heh heh Liliana's dancing with a corpse", but why? It's just a really dumb action to portray. Sure, Liliana's manipulative and cruel, but she's not so bat shit insane that she's stooped to dancing with corpses and talking with park benches like a wasted sorority girl. Not to mention that it still pales in comparison to the original art for Macabre Waltz.

Delvis

03-15-2016, 11:58 AM

I don't think LED is the droid you're looking for, but I think that's moving in the right direction. I don't think dumping a Vampire or two into play is the most powerful thing you can do in Legacy.

I'm actually envisioning casting Faithless Looting and Burning Inquiry for mondo value.

And, of course, Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. #winning #AllWalkersMatter

Edit to add:

I mean "heh heh Liliana's dancing with a corpse", but why? It's just a really dumb action to portray. Sure, Liliana's manipulative and cruel, but she's not so bat shit insane that she's stooped to dancing with corpses and talking with park benches like a wasted sorority girl.

Unless she's been driven that insane by Emra- err, the Moon.

Not to mention that it still pales in comparison to the original art for Macabre Waltz.

On that, we agree.

GundamGuy

03-15-2016, 12:17 PM

I mean "heh heh Liliana's dancing with a corpse", but why? It's just a really dumb action to portray. Sure, Liliana's manipulative and cruel, but she's not so bat shit insane that she's stooped to dancing with corpses and talking with park benches like a wasted sorority girl. Not to mention that it still pales in comparison to the original art for Macabre Waltz.

First I agree the original art is better.

My personal reading of this, is that Liliana had a major break down after Jace choose Gideon over her... got really drunk (planeswalkers can do that now?) went on a bender on Innistrad and started dancing with a corpse since it's the only thing that'll ever love* her.

*If a undead slave fawning over you can be considered love?

Richard Cheese

03-15-2016, 12:25 PM

I mean "heh heh Liliana's dancing with a corpse", but why? It's just a really dumb action to portray. Sure, Liliana's manipulative and cruel, but she's not so bat shit insane that she's stooped to dancing with corpses and talking with park benches like a wasted sorority girl. Not to mention that it still pales in comparison to the original art for Macabre Waltz.

Maybe Liliana is just a lonely nerd that turned to necromancy because she lacked the social skills to interact with the living, and this is just a scene from the saddest prom night in the multiverse.

MTG The Source: ASKING THE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

The important question is whether she tears out of her clothing, hulk-style, or if she dresses and undresses politely before turning into a raging murderbeast.

Actually the most important question is whether or not there's a point in the transformation at which she has four sets of human tits.

Deckerator

03-15-2016, 12:28 PM

GoblinSettler

03-15-2016, 12:28 PM

On a side note, I could probably get behind a card named "Of Rattled Chains".

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DGGcdZ4KYbA/T5FeDLPuJJI/AAAAAAAACKo/2ofTef2oC0w/s640/good-good-let-the-jimmies-rustle-through-you.png

03-15-2016, 12:38 PM

Actually the most important question is whether or not there's a point in the transformation at which she has four sets of human tits.

Looking at the art on of her as a human, no, the answer absolutely doesn't matter at all.

I'm hoping that we get one Legacy playable Planeswalker out of this set. I have doubts that we'll get another White, Green or Red 'Walker (we already have two Red ones), so that means we should have a Blue one and a Black one, most probably. The Blue one is probably Tamiyo and I guess the Black one is Sorin. I really hope Sorin isn't yet another W/B one though, we have enough carbon copies of him.

Dice_Box

03-15-2016, 12:50 PM

It will be Jace. It will always be Jace.

Barook

03-15-2016, 12:58 PM

First I agree the original art is better.

My personal reading of this, is that Liliana had a major break down after Jace choose Gideon over her... got really drunk (planeswalkers can do that now?) went on a bender on Innistrad and started dancing with a corpse since it's the only thing that'll ever love* her.

*If a undead slave fawning over you can be considered love?
It's kinda ironic that everything MtG's new posterboy Jace touches turns into shit:
- directly responsible for releasing the Eldrazi
- potentially fucked up the Multiverse by killing two Eldrazi Titans without knowing their real purpose
- turned Liliana into a love-struck little girl with a touch of insanity
- dooming Ravnica to another guild war by first becoming the Living Guildpact, just to walk away afterwards

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 01:06 PM

It's kinda ironic that everything MtG's new posterboy Jace touches turns into shit:
- directly responsible for releasing the Eldrazi
- potentially fucked up the Multiverse by killing two Eldrazi Titans without knowing their real purpose
- turned Liliana into a love-struck little girl with a touch of insanity
- dooming Ravnica to another guild war by first becoming the Living Guildpact, just to walk away afterwards

Googling Jace facts I came across his wiki page and this sentence...

"The four planeswalkers realized that they were helpless against large threats on their own, but that they could stand against just about any force in the Multiverse by working together."

I am so sick of this shit.

PirateKing

03-15-2016, 01:14 PM

Googling Jace facts I came across his wiki page and this sentence...

"The four planeswalkers realized that they were helpless against large threats on their own, but that they could stand against just about any force in the Multiverse by working together."

I am so sick of this shit.

Walkers, planessemble!

Ace/Homebrew

03-15-2016, 01:23 PM

Walkers, planessemble!

https://videogamegeek.com/camo/e1f9e09dfd154793fec9c7f13e0cb23d719ddd6a/687474703a2f2f312e62702e626c6f6773706f742e636f6d2f5f31775747374c36465231412f544b30657a6e544e6668492f414141414141414141694d2f6433516e46654d79346d732f733332302f303030322e706e67

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 01:31 PM

Walkers, planessemble!

http://i.imgur.com/mRNPCZv.png

Edit: Fukken Ace again.

03-15-2016, 01:32 PM

It's kinda ironic that everything MtG's new posterboy Jace touches turns into shit:
- directly responsible for releasing the Eldrazi
- potentially fucked up the Multiverse by killing two Eldrazi Titans without knowing their real purpose
- turned Liliana into a love-struck little girl with a touch of insanity
- dooming Ravnica to another guild war by first becoming the Living Guildpact, just to walk away afterwards

You don't even need to read the fluff to know that Jace is a jerk, just play a game versus Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Gheizen64

03-15-2016, 01:39 PM

That RG walker seems really good. Flip garruk is already borderline and this coudl arguably be better but require a bit more creatures on the board to be effective. Ligthning bolt as a -1 is really good on a 4 mana walker, even if she can use it only every other turn.

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 01:55 PM

even if she can use it only every other turn.

I feel like this is something that's pretty significant though. Sure, Garruk's "Bolt" is only a one-shot, but at the same point in time you immediately have access to the Bolt and can continuously churn out wolves (sometimes "oh god please don't let garruk become goyf food" wolves) without having to flippy floppy.

joven

03-15-2016, 01:56 PM

Ugh, constantly flipping this card is going to be horrendous. Im glad its not playable in formats I play.

Too bad she can't be a creature at will in her werewolf form. Most of her abilities aren't that strong besides the transforming abilities, and those are strong because she does what Huntmaster of the Fells does (wolf tokens and direct damage).
Hm, I think WotC missed the opportunity to make the werewolf planewalker really cool. Sad!

Now that we have an aggressively transforming werewolf planeswalker, I have to ask. Is she naked on the battlefield when she transforms back? Aside from werebear, all of the were-doodles seem to be decidedly lacking in purple stretch pants which I imagine. Considering that a significant portion of the population would be reliant such clothing, I'd consider that an untapped cash-cow.

I didn't read the story that introduced her in great detail but I think she was naked after transforming back from werewolf. Nothing to be embarrassed about! ;)

Unless she's been driven that insane by Emra- err, the Moon.

Emramoon! The new overlord of Innistrad. Eldrazis until you puke! ;)

What is this monster in the background?
Maybe a new fattie?

Just a random demon. The artwork is actually neat though. (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/slaughter-2016-03-15)

I'm hoping that we get one Legacy playable Planeswalker out of this set. I have doubts that we'll get another White, Green or Red 'Walker (we already have two Red ones), so that means we should have a Blue one and a Black one, most probably. The Blue one is probably Tamiyo and I guess the Black one is Sorin. I really hope Sorin isn't yet another W/B one though, we have enough carbon copies of him.

I still wonder which of the at least six planeswalker that could and should show up in this Innistrad block won't get a card because there are probably only 5 slots (3 in the large set, 2 in the small set):

Sorin (B or WB), he's the lord of the plane and involved in the story with Avacyn and Nahiri and Jace
Nahiri (WR), said to be on Innistrad because "pissed" on Sorin for no good reason [card confirmed]
Arlinn (RG) the new werewolf planeswalker [card confirmed]
Jace (U or maybe UB?), he runs around and looks for Sorin (There are enough cards of him aren't there?)
Liliana (B), Innistrad is her beloved plane since Magic Origins and it was said she will be there although no obvious reason (I'd prefer a reprint of Liliana of the Veil.)
Tamiyo (U or maybe WU?), highly beloved planeswalker from Avacyn Restored, people expect a new card of her
Tibalt? (R or BR)
...?

Lemnear

03-15-2016, 01:56 PM

"The four planeswalkers realized that they were helpless against large threats on their own, but that they could stand against just about any force in the Multiverse by working together."

I am so sick of this shit.

http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/power-rangers-movie-image.jpg

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 02:02 PM

I'm actually envisioning casting Faithless Looting and Burning Inquiry for mondo value.

Yeah, that's interesting. Still, whats' the best you can do with this?

Creatures (28)
(1 cc)
4 Falkenrath Glutton
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Stormkirk Noble
(2 cc)
4 Heir to Falkenrath
(3cc)
4 Ganthan Raiders
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Other (20)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Lands (12)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

Check it out, it's super-slow aggro in Legacy!

And, of course, Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded. #winning #AllWalkersMatter

No. NO. Cut that out.

Googling Jace facts I came across his wiki page and this sentence...

"The four planeswalkers realized that they were helpless against large threats on their own, but that they could stand against just about any force in the Multiverse by working together."

I am so sick of this shit.

Have you been asleep during the entire Oath of the Gatewatch block? That was literally the whole point of the story. "Hooray, we're going to beat this horrible monsters that not even oldwalkers could handle by discovering THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP."

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 02:25 PM

Have you been asleep during the entire Oath of the Gatewatch block? That was literally the whole point of the story.

I try not to pay attention. It's too disappointing.

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 02:38 PM

I try not to pay attention. It's too disappointing.

Magic the gathering storylines have always been garbage. Let's just hope they don't have the same people in charge of movie plots that they put in charge of the storylines for each block.

Delvis

03-15-2016, 02:39 PM

Yeah, that's interesting. Still, whats' the best you can do with this?

Creatures (28)
(1 cc)
4 Falkenrath Glutton
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Stormkirk Noble
(2 cc)
4 Heir to Falkenrath
(3cc)
4 Ganthan Raiders
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Other (20)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Lands (12)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

This is a very rough list to start with, but your creature base is close to where I had arrived on my initial draft. It starts off strong with Lacerator, Noble, and Glutton, and then it sort of drops off, or at least gets a little complicated.

One thing I think should be in there by default is Bloodghast, that guy is way too good to not be playing. He also decreases your reliance on Glutton for card advantage from your Lootings and such.

Gathan Raiders and Nighthawk just seem almost actively bad in this deck. I mean, Raiders might be fine (although I dislike it), but Stromkirk Captain seems much better than Nighthawk as a potential instant-speed Lord to drop in, also granting first strike which is significant for combat purposes. Drana, Liberator of Malakir also seems like a solid 3 drop in this slot. Heir to Falkenrath is interesting, but I'm not sold yet. I do think it is currently the best Vampire-based madness enabler.

But what are your other options? Do you play Kalastria Highborn? AEther Vial?? Burn spells? Which burn - Bolts of course, but do you play Fiery Temper or Chain Lightning? Where does Feast of Blood fit in (it seems too strong to not play)?

There's a lot of ground to cover when brewing a potential BR Vampires build. It's a neat idea, but it remains to be seen if it has legs. Personally, I probably won't bother to try putting it together until we know the full spoiler of this set - and perhaps not until we've seen all of Eldritch Moon, too.

GundamGuy

03-15-2016, 02:40 PM

Snip: Image of Power Rangers

Man I can't wait till they introduce the yet unseen all powerful green ranger... Won't that be special.

MaximumC

03-15-2016, 02:58 PM

This is a very rough list to start with, but your creature base is close to where I had arrived on my initial draft. It starts off strong with Lacerator, Noble, and Glutton, and then it sort of drops off, or at least gets a little complicated.

One thing I think should be in there by default is Bloodghast, that guy is way too good to not be playing. He also decreases your reliance on Glutton for card advantage from your Lootings and such.

Gathan Raiders and Nighthawk just seem almost actively bad in this deck. I mean, Raiders might be fine (although I dislike it), but Stromkirk Captain seems much better than Nighthawk as a potential instant-speed Lord to drop in, also granting first strike which is significant for combat purposes. Drana, Liberator of Malakir also seems like a solid 3 drop in this slot. Heir to Falkenrath is interesting, but I'm not sold yet. I do think it is currently the best Vampire-based madness enabler.

But what are your other options? Do you play Kalastria Highborn? AEther Vial?? Burn spells? Which burn - Bolts of course, but do you play Fiery Temper or Chain Lightning? Where does Feast of Blood fit in (it seems too strong to not play)?

There's a lot of ground to cover when brewing a potential BR Vampires build. It's a neat idea, but it remains to be seen if it has legs. Personally, I probably won't bother to try putting it together until we know the full spoiler of this set - and perhaps not until we've seen all of Eldritch Moon, too.

We're theory crafting a dung heap, but hey, why not?

My take on it was to maximize the 1 drop vampires and then curve up to 3 with more powerful utility creatures.

Nighthawk does WORK. I ran this in two Star City Legacy Opens in Colorado in my Gate list, and it was always amazing. It blocks and kills monsters that get cheated into play, even Emrakul if you have the permanents for it. It gains life which is hugely important in a suicide style deck, particularly if you start running Bob and Thoughtseize and other actual good cards we should use in any B/R aggro list. It's evasive, which is also hugely important and magnified if you run any equipment.

Stormkirk Captain is great, and yeah, I was looking at him, but I think he's too slow. I can't think of many situations that I'd want a Noble over a Nighthawk.

Kalistra is fine but not at her best unless you have sacrifice outlets. Plus, since her ability costs mana to use, you're only using her if you are not dumping your mana out each turn. Seems like you're doing bad if that's going on.

Raiders is a 5/5 for 3 in a deck that wants to pitch cards, making it the biggest beatstick you can run in a hellbent / madness shell. It's not a Vampire, no, but that's just another reason not to run Captain.

Aether Vial? Yeah, probably this is good. Also probably want some number of Thoughtseize / Hymn / Bob / Bolt / Jitte, honestly.

Man I can't wait till they introduce the yet unseen all powerful green ranger... Won't that be special.

Black Ranger, in this case. That's the only slot open. (Liliana or Sorin, whositgonnabe)

Richard Cheese

03-15-2016, 03:32 PM

Have you been asleep during the entire Oath of the Gatewatch block? That was literally the whole point of the story. "Hooray, we're going to beat this horrible monsters that not even oldwalkers could handle by discovering THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP."

...and Karate. Then Jace marries the waitress and lives happily ever after.

joven

03-15-2016, 03:38 PM

Black Ranger, in this case. That's the only slot open. (Liliana or Sorin, whositgonnabe)

I think he meant the Power Rangers.
Also, there is no reason not to take more than one of a color. There are no limited "slots".
Also, black walkers don't quite understand the team concept.
(I don't like that Justice League stuff either.)

Finn

03-15-2016, 04:23 PM

iamajellydonut

03-15-2016, 04:43 PM

This is why I'm convinced that the movie, if it ever comes to pass, simply must be about Planeswalkers with every other aspect of the game muted.

It'll basically be the new Fantastic Four. And probably as bad.

Here's hoping for development hell.

GundamGuy

03-15-2016, 04:44 PM

This is why I'm convinced that the movie, if it ever comes to pass, simply must be about Planeswalkers with every other aspect of the game muted.

YUP.

Watch as our cast of planeswalkers act like they are superheroes because Superhero movies are in right? (comes out 2-3 years after everyone is burnt out on superhero movie plots)

ironclad8690

03-15-2016, 09:01 PM

Man I really don't care who does it but a weatherlight saga movie/trilogy would be so cool. I would watch it on repeat for such a long time.

Episode 1: Urza and Mishra's Story/Planeswalkers

Episode 2: Bloodlines/Time Streams

Episode 3: Rath saga

Episode 4: Masques

Episode 5: Invasion/Planeshift

Episode 6: Apocalypse

Has to at least be as good as the Hobbit movies right? Unlike the planeswalker/power ranger thing they are doing now the cast felt very unique and diverse.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-15-2016, 11:29 PM

ESG

03-16-2016, 05:52 AM

Now that we have an aggressively transforming werewolf planeswalker, I have to ask. Is she naked on the battlefield when she transforms back?

They warned us of the coming Eldritch Moon, Jelly.

Deckerator

03-16-2016, 07:29 AM

03-16-2016, 09:51 AM

http://i.imgur.com/5Qy7ClC.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/HqZcCkU.jpg

For those few who ever ran Werewolf Stompy, this guys gives you an alternative to Hanweir Watchkeep at the 3 drop, even though the :r::r: cost of it kind of sucks.

joven

03-16-2016, 09:58 AM

I have got a question. Can you play "Illusionary Mask" in combination with "Thing in the Ice" ? But how can i get the card flipped from down- to upside? Because it is a defender. Can i attack with it when it is downside?

Face Down creatures have nothing to do with Double Faced Cards! It's a completely different mechanic and therefore orthogonal.
While face down it has no abilities, so no Defender. When turned face up it's always on front side.
Only thing is that this might be a way to cheat around the ice counters. So after turning face up one instant/sorcery is sufficient to transform.
But this is probably not worth running Illusionary Mask or some Manifest stuff ...

Ace/Homebrew

03-16-2016, 10:59 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/400/635937185424951572.png

Jace, Unraveler of Secrets :3::u::u:
Planeswalker - Jace
+1: Scry 1, then draw a card.
-2: Bounce a creature.
-8: Emblem - "Whenever an opponent casts first spell each turn, counter that spell."

I hope there will be a deck in Standard called 'Blue's Clues'. :rolleyes:

MaximumC

03-16-2016, 11:07 AM

@ClueJace: I'm very dissapointed Jace does not produce Clue tokens. Opportunity missed! Anyway, this Jace seems great. At 5, probably not an all-format all-star, but packaging your removal with a card draw engine is good times. Good card.

I have got a question. Can you play "Illusionary Mask" in combination with "Thing in the Ice" ? But how can i get the card flipped from down- to upside? Because it is a defender. Can i attack with it when it is downside?

Newp. Double faced cards can't be face-down. They have no face-down. If an effect would try to turn them face down, it does nothing.

http://i.imgur.com/5Qy7ClC.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/HqZcCkU.jpg

For those few who ever ran Werewolf Stompy, this guys gives you an alternative to Hanweir Watchkeep at the 3 drop, even though the :r::r: cost of it kind of sucks.

Why? Watchkeep blocks like a pro and becomes a 5/5. This guy is smaller.

03-16-2016, 11:19 AM

Why? Watchkeep blocks like a pro and becomes a 5/5. This guy is smaller.

It's different. Watchkeep is certainly a better defensive card. This guy can attack without flipping, if he does flip he attacks for the same amount but with trample, he isn't forced to attack every turn, and he also buffs other creatures you have. I only ever played that deck once, but this guy seems a lot more aggressive to me.

Dice_Box

03-16-2016, 11:21 AM

It will be Jace. It will always be Jace.
I hate being right sometimes.

Ace/Homebrew

03-16-2016, 11:21 AM

Agreed. I wouldn't play Watchkeep, but I'd consider running this new card.

03-16-2016, 11:25 AM

I hate being right sometimes.

I personally blame you for this, :tongue:

Agreed. I wouldn't play Watchkeep, but I'd consider running this new card.

Ok, glad I'm not totally crazy in thinking it was playable.

Another new card:

http://i.imgur.com/lNs8csy.png

GenghisTom

03-16-2016, 11:59 AM

Too bad it's the opposite of FoF.
If opponent made piles and you choose, at least you could can trip for one mana.

Very cool card though, going straight into the cube

MaximumC

03-16-2016, 12:06 PM

Agreed. I wouldn't play Watchkeep, but I'd consider running this new card.

Well, H mentioned it, but let's not forget that this is RR1 instead of 2R. That's big news in a deck that is running 8 Sol Lands.

And sure, they hit for the same, but a 4/5 Goyf will kill this guy and not Watchkeep. That's a common blocker.

I dunno, at best, I feel like this card is as good or slightly worse than Watchkeep.

P.S. We're comparing a tier-2 card in a tier-3 deck to a newly spoiled card. Doesn't say much for this set!

P.P.S. Epiphany is a worse Steam Augury. You see that circle that Jace is looking at over there? That's a toilet. It's flushing. This card. Because it's poop.

iamajellydonut

03-16-2016, 12:06 PM

Too bad it's the opposite of FoF.
If opponent made piles and you choose, at least you could can trip for one mana.

I mean, yeah, too bad it's not FoF piles, but still, it's an X at instant speed.

MaximumC

03-16-2016, 12:07 PM

I mean, yeah, too bad it's not FoF piles, but still, it's an X at instant speed.

"Spend your mana and a card to get the worst cards out of your top X"

In what universe is this good? You're virtually guaranteed never to get what you want.

bruizar

03-16-2016, 12:15 PM

Olivia is a decent modern card

iamajellydonut

03-16-2016, 12:20 PM

In what universe is this good? You're virtually guaranteed never to get what you want.

Cards are cards. Especially as far as Standard is concerned.

Dice_Box

03-16-2016, 12:24 PM

Olivia is a decent modern card
She lacks a hard on, 0/10.

03-16-2016, 12:26 PM

Olivia is a decent modern card

In Jund? Is it really worth missing land drops or whatever else you are pitching to this?

The new Sigarda is interesting for EDH, I'll be looking for a foil one for my Rhys token deck.

bruizar

03-16-2016, 01:04 PM

In Jund? Is it really worth missing land drops or whatever else you are pitching to this?

The new Sigarda is interesting for EDH, I'll be looking for a foil one for my Rhys token deck.

Olivia converts 1 card (dead land?) for 2+x damage. 2 damage from +1/+1 counters (compared to not having haste and a +1/+1 counter, plus the base damage from the hasted creature, plus one damage every turn for the +1/+1 counter each turn after that. That's at least 3 damage for zero mana, and probably more.

I wonder what vampire trick tricks there are with new Olivia

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2016, 01:10 PM

03-16-2016, 01:17 PM

Olivia converts 1 card (dead land?) for 2+x damage. 2 damage from +1/+1 counters (compared to not having haste and a +1/+1 counter, plus the base damage from the hasted creature, plus one damage every turn for the +1/+1 counter each turn after that. That's at least 3 damage for zero mana, and probably more.

I wonder what vampire trick tricks there are with new Olivia

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the few times I played Modern Jund the deck tends to be very mana-hungry. Activating Raging Ravine is pretty costly. It might still be worth it, I'm really not sure.

Cire

03-16-2016, 01:20 PM

Its kinda cool with the mad vampire for R. Play him and chain as many vampires as you have mana, buffed and hasted!

3/3 flying for 3 and 2/1 for red, that aggro... Not for legacy thou! It seems terrible in every bolt format! O yah and Temper for standard!

I think there are enough low cost vampires to do a modern vampire vial deck?

Darkenslight

03-16-2016, 01:30 PM

I'm not saying you are wrong, but the few times I played Modern Jund the deck tends to be very mana-hungry. Activating Raging Ravine is pretty costly. It might still be worth it, I'm really not sure.

Making Goyf bigger and faster isn't really a downside, though.

From what we've seen so far, this set's shaping up to be interesting, but not overly powerful. I'm surprised, however, at the fact that there are at least four 'walkers in this set, though: Sorin, Nahiri, Arlinn and Jace.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2016, 01:32 PM

From what we've seen so far, this set's shaping up to be interesting, but not overly powerful.

So perfectly balanced!?

bruizar

03-16-2016, 01:42 PM

Thus far, these are the cards I'm most interested in:

Thing in the Ice - Discussed a lot already. Legacy viable.

Arlinn - still figuring out whether this is huntmaster 2.0 or not. I have difficulties evaluating this card but suspect it may be better than Huntmaster for the fact that it's hard to remove and gives you much more control over if and when the abilities trigger, but you don't get the built in body huntmaster has. Probably not good enough, but still very interesting. Not looking at this as a legacy card. Probably not good enough.

Invasive Surgery - Every legacy player needs to have 4 available for sideboard purposes. Legacy viable.

Archangel Avacyn - I think it's cheap right now. I know it's 5 mana, but I don't care. Not for legacy, but modern and standard will likely want to use this. Baneslayer Angel is testimony that 5 mana angels can dominate a format. I see this as a wrath of god with flashback and a 4/4 flying body attached to it for one mana more, instead of as a creature.

Olivia - I think it's a strong Modern viable card. Would be so cool if anyone can get this and basking rootwalla going in legacy. Chain the rootwallas and attack with everything! :-) Yeah, not going to happen.. But still a good card.

Pilhas

03-16-2016, 01:49 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdr5-j5W4AE8EpW.png

I know I have to try this in Modern Storm.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2016, 01:51 PM

I tested titi in 15 games or so.

I played ur delver, it was kinda amazing vs knight of the reliquary.deck
Kinda bad vs eldrazi.
Bad vs BUG.

Well I played a bad list and Im rusty in legacy (my first try vs eldrazi) but stuff like chalice or trini hurts you even more, now you 2 drop is also useless...

Ok I test some more games!

maharis

03-16-2016, 02:05 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdr5-j5W4AE8EpW.png

I know I have to try this in Modern Storm.

Intuition...

Has to be something that wins you the game if you rattle off two copies in one turn. Probably just some Storm card.

Edit: Never mind, you have to pay the costs of the graveyard spell? Laaaaaaame

rufus

03-16-2016, 02:11 PM

I mean, yeah, too bad it's not FoF piles, but still, it's an X at instant speed.

In legacy, you could play Stroke of Genius instead.

PirateKing

03-16-2016, 02:24 PM

In legacy, you could play Stroke of Genius instead.

Yeah I thought it was Fact or Fiction style when I first read it, thought of High Tide decks, but upon a closer look, Blue Sun's Zenith is just better.

TsumiBand

03-16-2016, 02:30 PM

Yeah I thought it was Fact or Fiction style when I first read it, thought of High Tide decks, but upon a closer look, Blue Sun's Zenith is just better.

I mean, it's obviously catering to Delirium though right -- maybe there's some game state where your piles are partially mandated by getting card types in your yard.

I don't think that turning around the roles of the traditional Fact or Fiction effect is necessarily any worse than the situation you already have -- think of all the shitty piles your opponents presented to you, at least you get to make the decision difficult for the opponent instead of them making the decision difficult for you. It just isn't as efficient as Fact; FoF reveals 5 cards for 4 mana, where this is 4 cards at the same cost. If it had broken even with FoF somehow without making the "X < 3" castings a little unfair, this might have been interesting as it scaled up the curve into the late game. As such, though... I'm not sold on it.

Barook

03-16-2016, 02:45 PM

PirateKing

03-16-2016, 03:09 PM

It does indeed seem unituitive. The way its worded, there doesn't really seem a real way to actually "break" it.

It seems like a more different Pyromancer Ascension. Sure this starts working the turn it's out, but you need to pay for the copy. Pyromancer you need to put that initial work into, but free copies afterwards. Both make sense in Burn and other quadlazer type of decks, and both tempt you to break them with other, blueish spells.

03-16-2016, 03:11 PM

It does indeed seem unituitive. The way its worded, there doesn't really seem a real way to actually "break" it.

Yeah, the only "use" I could think of is with something like Lightning Bolt, or some other thing like that, where you can chain one into another in the yard, then another into 2 more (because it doesn't exile it after you cast it again). Although having a Snapcaster does cut this down by one, but make it more realistic.

That being said, if you are in the magical chistmas-land where you have the time to set this up and three Lightning Bolts, or 2 and a Snap-daddy, you probably could have just won the game with almost any other three mana spell.

joven

03-16-2016, 03:15 PM

Newp. Double faced cards can't be face-down. They have no face-down. If an effect would try to turn them face down, it does nothing.

to clear that up:

711.8. If an effect allows a player to cast a double-faced card as a face-down creature spell, or if a double-faced card enters the battlefield face down, it will have the characteristics given to it by the rule or effect that caused it to be face down. That card remains hidden, using either a face-down checklist card or opaque sleeves. See rule 707, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”

711.8a While face down, a double-faced permanent can’t transform. If it is turned face up, it will have its front face up.

711.9. Double-faced permanents can’t be turned face down. If a spell or ability tries to turn a double-faced permanent face down, nothing happens.

from here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/gameplay/formats/comprehensiverules)

You were partly right but DFCs can be face down if they enter the battlefield that way (Illusionary Mask or Manifest).

PirateKing

03-16-2016, 03:17 PM

Yeah, the only "use" I could think of is with something like Lightning Bolt, or some other thing like that, where you can chain one into another in the yard, then another into 2 more (because it doesn't exile it after you cast it again). Although having a Snapcaster does cut this down by one, but make it more realistic.

That being said, if you are in the magical chistmas-land where you have the time to set this up and three Lightning Bolts, or 2 and a Snap-daddy, you probably could have just won the game with almost any other three mana spell.

You're right it doesn't exile the graveyard card, but they way it's worded with "target card in a graveyard with the same name" makes me doubtful you can get 2 dead Lighting Bolts off of 1 live one. You'll only ever cast a card and get 1 unfree spell.

rufus

03-16-2016, 03:20 PM

Intuition...
...
Edit: Never mind, you have to pay the costs of the graveyard spell? Laaaaaaame

OTOH, there's no exile clause so you can get a lot of value if it stays on the table. Probably more of a card for modern just because 3cc is a lot in legacy.

03-16-2016, 03:24 PM

You're right it doesn't exile the graveyard card, but they way it's worded with "target card in a graveyard with the same name" makes me doubtful you can get 2 dead Lighting Bolts off of 1 live one. You'll only ever cast a card and get 1 unfree spell.

Oh, yeah, total brain-fart there. I'll just blame this fever for that.

Card is booty, can't even play it in EDH, :laugh:

joven

03-16-2016, 03:32 PM

It seems like a more different Pyromancer Ascension. Sure this starts working the turn it's out, but you need to pay for the copy. Pyromancer you need to put that initial work into, but free copies afterwards. Both make sense in Burn and other quadlazer type of decks, and both tempt you to break them with other, blueish spells.

Interestingly Harness the Storm doesn't exile the spell card after cast from graveyard. Problem is you always need to cast one from your hand and instants and sorceries aren't as easy to get repeatedly from graveyard to hand as permanent cards.

---

Also, yet another Jace card. On first sight it looks boring. Scry 1 and then draw is better then just draw though. The bounce is what most Jaces do. The ultimate is Erayo's Essence.
He really should have made Clue tokens, although that would have been rather weak in most cases.

So, no Sorin for now, Tamiyo next set and no Liliana?
... oh ... and no corrupted UB Jace ... as the trailer slightly suggested. Boring! :P

Cire

03-16-2016, 03:36 PM

He really should have made Clue tokens, although that would have been rather weak in most cases.

I would've liked a +0 ability that made an emblem that said something like - whenever you cast an instant or sorcery put a clue token into play. Then you can stack it to get a whole lot of clue tokens. Don't know what you would do with all of them, but would have been interesting.

03-16-2016, 03:37 PM

So, no Sorin for now, Tamiyo next set and no Liliana?
... oh ... and no corrupted UB Jace ... as the trailer slightly suggested. Boring! :P

Sorin the the CFB preview card tomorrow. LSV already announced that even before he spoiled Arlin.

Fox

03-16-2016, 03:58 PM

Intuition...

Has to be something that wins you the game if you rattle off two copies in one turn. Probably just some Storm card.

Edit: Never mind, you have to pay the costs of the graveyard spell? Laaaaaaame
Don't know why you'd need to but Harness the Storm does not give spells an alternate casting cost, free spells are still going to be free (massacre, gush, FoW with exile, submerge, fireblast, snap-types to name a few). Pretty sure I'm reading this correctly.

maharis

03-16-2016, 04:23 PM

Don't know why you'd need to but Harness the Storm does not give spells an alternate casting cost, free spells are still going to be free (massacre, gush, FoW with exile, submerge, fireblast, snap-types to name a few). Pretty sure I'm reading this correctly.

That is correct, and I realized that myself, but I don't think a free spell that is broken by this exists.

Delve, Affinity, and effects like the Familiars also work under this, but I doubt there's anything relevant for Legacy.

I wonder what was busted in Standard back when this card let you cast the GY card for free... there's no way this didn't start out that way.

MaximumC

03-16-2016, 05:03 PM

That is correct, and I realized that myself, but I don't think a free spell that is broken by this exists.

Delve, Affinity, and effects like the Familiars also work under this, but I doubt there's anything relevant for Legacy.

I wonder what was busted in Standard back when this card let you cast the GY card for free... there's no way this didn't start out that way.

Harness is stupid good once it's out there and you're in the midgame in a UR, spell-based deck.

Gitaxian Probe seems pretty good. Each one you draw after the first reads: pay UU or 4 life or U and 2 life and draw two cards. Oh, and look at the opponent's hand, too.

Similarly, Manamorphose can now read: Pay RRGG, draw two cards, add any combination of 4 mana to your mana pool.

Bolts are now all RR: Deal 6 damage divided between one or two targets.

Force of Will becomes: Exile two blue cards, counter a spell twice (just in case opponent is trying to counter back)

Brainstorm is great if you have a fetchland, lame otherwise, but Ponder / Preordain dig deeper.

Dark Ritual becomes: BB: Add 6xB to your mana pool.

Etc, etc.

The problem is that Harness is a do-nothing in the early game, and an expensive one at that, and I don't think there's a way to leverage it into an outright winning combo. I mean, you can advance your Storm count amazingly, but this card doesn't read "I win" with anything else in particular.

Don't know why you'd need to but Harness the Storm does not give spells an alternate casting cost, free spells are still going to be free (massacre, gush, FoW with exile, submerge, fireblast, snap-types to name a few). Pretty sure I'm reading this correctly.

I agree. Unlike Tiago, this card does not give the card a flashback cost; it just flat out lets you recast it.

03-16-2016, 05:18 PM

I was just thinking that you can do some silly shit with Regrowth, Lightning Bolt and Harness, but it costs a million mana, is slow and, of course, terrible.

GreatWhale

03-16-2016, 05:33 PM

I was just thinking that you can do some silly shit with Regrowth, Lightning Bolt and Harness, but it costs a million mana, is slow and, of course, terrible.

go on...

Darkenslight

03-16-2016, 05:42 PM

Richard Cheese

03-16-2016, 05:58 PM

Barook

03-16-2016, 06:09 PM

How exactly does Harnass work with sorceries/timing? If I cast Rite of Flame with another Rite of Flame in the yard, this triggers, I choose to cast the one in the yard...does that one resolve before the first one?
That's how I understand it, since you can only cast it when the trigger resolves due to lack of "until end of turn".

03-16-2016, 06:29 PM

go on...

2 Lightning Bolts, 2 Regrowths. Harness on the battlefield.

Cast Bolt. Cast second Bolt, Harness trigger, Cast Bolt from the 'yard. Regrowth Bolt. Cast Bolt, Harness trigger cast Bolt from 'yard. Play the second Regrowth on Bolt, Harness tigger cast Regrowth from the 'yard, return second Bolt. Cast Bolt, then cast second Bolt, Harness trigger cast Bolt from the 'yard.

That should be 8 Lightning Bolts, all for the low, low price of 17 mana.

Disclaimer: I am in bed with a fever, so that pretty much sums this post up.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-16-2016, 06:46 PM

It might actually be wroth it in ascension! Its devastating if they surgical extract your ascension, but now you can side 2 of them in and still go off normal!
Its too redundant for MD, if you pull it off yah you wont fizzle, if not you end up with 2 do nothing enchantments...

Past in flames semms just better...

joven

03-16-2016, 08:20 PM

Sorin the the CFB preview card tomorrow. LSV already announced that even before he spoiled Arlin.

Didn't know that. So, WotC already upped the numbers of planeswalkers per set, or what? So is every large set almost a core set now concerning the number of planeswalkers? :/

03-16-2016, 08:29 PM

Didn't know that. So, WotC already upped the numbers of planeswalkers per set, or what? So is every large set almost a core set now concerning the number of planeswalkers? :/

I guess we'll find out. I doubt if there will really be 4 Planeswalkers every large set, but with no core set any more I could see them doing 3 each time, sometimes maybe 4. Then again, maybe it will be 4 every time.

Since we are so early in this 2 set block thing it's hard to know exactly how they are planning to run it.

Echelon

03-17-2016, 02:20 AM

I hate being right sometimes.

Yeah, we hate you for it too :tongue:.

Lemnear

03-17-2016, 03:40 AM

Sorin the the CFB preview card tomorrow. LSV already announced that even before he spoiled Arlin.

Must be nice to get handed out insider information long before spoilers are public to buyout any card which might me synergize with new released cards....

Hopo

03-17-2016, 04:47 AM

Must be nice to get handed out insider information long before spoilers are public to buyout any card which might me synergize with new released cards....

I guess these kind of things are in general handled by acting in good faith, so to say. Also, likely signing of some papers is involved in order to fix the possible lack of good faith. Not sure but I guess they stopped giving out the God Books and now have adapted the concept of giving certain parties a few selected preview cards to create buzz before the release.

Sure, misconduct can happen but what the fuck are you gonna do about it, especially when secondary market is hardly in Wotc's interests.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 04:50 AM

They also might get told they are getting a card, but not actually see it until closer to the date in question.

swoop

03-17-2016, 05:39 AM

In b4 godbook, or what's it called

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Lemnear

03-17-2016, 06:29 AM

They also might get told they are getting a card, but not actually see it until closer to the date in question.

You mean like the Wastes, Kozilek and other leaks? Please...

We already know that a lot of spoilers and insider info became public by certain vendors. Some people at WotC have a very dirty relationship with vendors and the secondary market and information is sold for cash, like the Box of Eternal Masters which was offered in certain FB groups

Hopo

03-17-2016, 06:39 AM

You mean like the Wastes, Kozilek and other leaks? Please...

We already know that a lot of spoilers and insider info became public by certain vendors. Some people at WotC have a very dirty relationship with vendors and the secondary market and information is sold for cash, like the Box of Eternal Masters which was offered in certain FB groups

But those were all unofficial leaks. That's another topic.

Lemnear

03-17-2016, 07:51 AM

But those were all unofficial leaks. That's another topic.

How is that another topic? Leaks turned out to be the real thing again and again.

Someone at WotC sells info to vendors and the vendors manipulate the secondary market with that info. WotC hands out insider info to ChannelFireball and Pro Players so they have significant advantage over the broad playerbase.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 08:00 AM

How is that another topic? Leaks turned out to be the real thing again and again.

Someone at WotC sells info to vendors and the vendors manipulate the secondary market with that info. WotC hands out insider info to ChannelFireball and Pro Players so they have significant advantage over the broad playerbase.

That's not the topic this thread is for. This is for talk about the new set and the shitty cards that will be printed in it, not conspiracy theories. For that you need Reddit, where all of this is commonly discussed or a stand alone thread. One of which will turn into a shitstorm and be locked.

Edit.
If you want to continue conversation on this topic, please post here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30234-OGW-leaks-amp-massive-Judge-suspensions).

03-17-2016, 08:45 AM

http://i.imgur.com/IePdNQe.png

Perhaps for Turbo Eldrazi?

joven

03-17-2016, 08:47 AM

Darkenslight

03-17-2016, 08:52 AM

rare colorless DFC got spoiled:

Westvale Abbey
Land
T: Add ◊ to your mana pool.
5, T, pay one life: Put a 1/1 white and black human cleric token onto the battlefield.
5, T, sacrifice five creatures: transform and untap Ormendahl, Profane Prince.

Ormendahl, Profane Prince
Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink, indestructible, haste
9/7

Uff, I'm relieved that the rare colorless DFC is not Silver Moon transforming into Emrakul or something!

...Wait...isn't this one of the four Demons that Liliana sold her Soul to?

Also, Pieces of the Puzzle has official text:

:2: :u:
Sorcery
Reveal the top five cards of your library. Put up to two instant and/or sorcery cards from among them into your hand and the rest into your graveyard.

03-17-2016, 08:58 AM

Yeah, that land is neat and flavorful, but pretty much unplayable. It would probably be a lot more playable if it didn't cost 5 just to make a Cleric token.

The only way I could see it being "good" is as wrath protection. Maybe some junky Standard Vampires deck will want it.

Have 5 guys, if they wrath you, sac 'em and make a big Indestructible dude.

Gheizen64

03-17-2016, 09:00 AM

http://i.imgur.com/IePdNQe.png

Perhaps for Turbo Eldrazi?

Artifact, land, Sorcery... Instant? Could see it as 1-of, tutor that is essentially uncastable early.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 09:00 AM

Dark Depths 2.0

Echelon

03-17-2016, 09:00 AM

http://i.imgur.com/IePdNQe.png

Perhaps for Turbo Eldrazi?

It might be the GSZ Modern needs.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 09:04 AM

It might be the GSZ Modern needs.
Most of the decks that need something like this would have a hard time triggering it.

Echelon

03-17-2016, 09:07 AM

Most of the decks that need something like this would have a hard time triggering it.

That is very true, good sir. It might be worthy of making an effort though. Perhaps Glissa, the Traitor + Engineered Explosives to add another cardtype and LotV.

03-17-2016, 09:19 AM

https://i.imgur.com/StxuaFc.jpg

I can't think of how to abuse this thing off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure this is an effect we've never seen.

square_two

03-17-2016, 09:40 AM

The Temple is an interested card for Stax decks. Sort of a land with Crucible built in. I wouldn't mind having a single Braids or Smokestack going and just recurring this guy every turn. Doesn't take up precious slots, enters untapped (when initially played at least). Might have to try it as a one-of.

03-17-2016, 10:00 AM

If you had a Lotus Cobra and a Squandered Resources in play you can get a Landfall trigger for :1: per.

I doubt if that is really all that worthwhile, but I guess in something like EDH you could make a ton of Beast tokens with something like Rampaging Baloths at Instant-speed.

EDIT: Amulet of Vigor would let you go infinite, now that I think of it.

Finn

03-17-2016, 10:13 AM

https://i.imgur.com/StxuaFc.jpg

I can't think of how to abuse this thing off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure this is an effect we've never seen.I completely agree. This card has "collect me" written all over it.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 10:17 AM

This guy screams "Sac me". I want.

Cire

03-17-2016, 10:27 AM

Already mentioned - but for Stax deck - this could be a crucible like effect in combination with sac effects. . . will still take you 3 mana on the board to get a "Lock" though.

FU,Eldrazi.dec?

4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestax
4 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Thoughtseize

4 Drownyard Temple
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Swamp

Ace/Homebrew

03-17-2016, 10:44 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/soringrimnemesis.jpg

Sorin, Grim Nemesis :4::w::b:
Planeswalker - Sorin
+1: Reveal the top card of your library and put it into your hand. Each opponent loses life equal to the CMC.
-X: Sorin deals X damage to target creature or planeswalker, you gain X life.
-9: Put a number of 1/1 black vampire knights onto the battlefield equal to the highest life total amongst players.
6 starting loyalty

maharis

03-17-2016, 10:45 AM

Well, if Stax is the idea, and you want to use this as an extra Crucible effect, seems like some sort of landfall trigger that can win you the game would be the way to go.

Retreat to Emeria pumps out tokens, which you can probably swing out with after you Stax 'em.

Retreat to Hagra has a drain, nice 20 turn clock for ya

There are some bigger-mana options too but all seem pretty win-more/not Stax-y

Zombie

03-17-2016, 10:51 AM

Army Ants Strip-locks people. Probably should just play Smokestack though.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 11:09 AM

Good thing I am not invested in the Lore any more, because this is looking like a shitstorm.

bruizar

03-17-2016, 11:14 AM

Any control deck could potential striplock people now wiht just 1 Dust Bowl and 1 Drownyard Temple. Excessively expensive, but a lock is a lock.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 11:16 AM

I would stick with Loam, lets me find the cards I need to be a dick and reuse them.

iamajellydonut

03-17-2016, 11:16 AM

Any control deck could potential striplock people now wiht just 1 Dust Bowl and 1 Drownyard Temple. Excessively expensive, but a lock is a lock.

Dust Bowl is nonbasic only. As much as I love Dust Bowl, it'd probably be waaay less efficient than your standard Waste-lock.

iamajellydonut

03-17-2016, 11:18 AM

http://i.imgur.com/Yq4APbV.jpg

Love the card, but the flavor text is p lame.

Probably worth picking up in foil.

Dice_Box

03-17-2016, 11:19 AM

That is the card I like the most so far.

TsumiBand

03-17-2016, 11:37 AM

https://i.imgur.com/StxuaFc.jpg

I can't think of how to abuse this thing off the top of my head, but I am pretty sure this is an effect we've never seen.

It's a ringer for half the things Smallpox does.

I guess you could pitch it to a turn 3 Madness outlet and if you have nothing better to do you can play its ability and get ahead on land :/

Cire

03-17-2016, 11:39 AM

VoV and Seething Song plus Sol Lands can guarantee you 6 mana by turn 3, 4 of which will be red. Something, something dragons?

Gheizen64

03-17-2016, 11:47 AM

Gheizen64

03-17-2016, 11:48 AM

VoV and Seething Song plus Sol Lands can guarantee you 6 mana by turn 3, 4 of which will be red. Something, something dragons?

Just Play monolith

Delvis

03-17-2016, 11:52 AM

Did it really need a two mana activation? It 's mana parity which is really meh. Could have it activated for 0 and give rr at least to be easier for delirium purposes

The Temple is a mox diamond enabler, or a lotus vale one, and don' t trigger city of traitors on his way back. It's a very poor lftl that require no color investment nor card investment (it take a land slot)

It's mana parity, sure... but you can spread the cost over two turns. It's also a delirium enabler, so I wouldn't be surprised if this indicates a red Cabal Ritual based on Delirium.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-17-2016, 11:54 AM

Idk its terrible mid combo, has no synergie with PIF/ascension , setup makes no storm, bad if you want to go turn 1 empty the warrens...

In the best case you go turn 2 this, turn 3 hey I have an extra ritual.

If you want to "bank mana" go with Pentad Prism.

That said its a common, its a ritual, its new. No reason to not get at least 1 or 2 playsets from prereleas/draft...

jrsthethird

03-17-2016, 11:54 AM

New Sorin is too expensive for Legacy but I want to play Mardu Superfriends in Standard.

Zombie

03-17-2016, 11:58 AM

Good thing I am not invested in the Lore any more, because this is looking like a shitstorm.

Yeah these flavour texts are pretty atrocious. The thing is, though? The in-world stuff is fine enough. Why did they have to shoehorn in Tamiyo, Jace and some asspull cryptoliths?

HdH_Cthulhu

03-17-2016, 12:01 PM

Also that Sorin artwork feels wrong...

Kinda looks like from an 80s comic? Maybe its just me!

Ok got it there is no diffuse twilight fog thing.

Gheizen64

03-17-2016, 12:02 PM

Sorin could very well see some fringe play in legacy. That +1 is insane , wind condition and draw engine in one.

The red enchantment is a delirum enabler, but again, being mana parity and only +2 (instead of +3 like monolith is, and that doesn't sacrifice) make it just terrible. Had it sacrificed for 0 and given :r: :r: it would've been much more interesting as a card.

The temple is the first step to this deck:

I play 10 moxens with literally no drawback in Legacy.dec

4 Chrome mox
3 Mox diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Traitors

4 Misthollow Griffins
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void

+ other things

HdH_Cthulhu

03-17-2016, 12:04 PM

Sorin could very well see some fringe play in legacy. That +1 is insane , wind condition and draw engine in one.

The red enchantment is a delirum enabler, but again, being mana parity and only +2 (instead of +3 like monolith is, and that doesn't sacrifice) make it just terrible. Had it sacrificed for 0 and given :r: :r: it would've been much more interesting as a card.

The temple is the first step to this deck:

I play 10 moxens with literally no drawback in Legacy.dec

4 Chrome mox
3 Mox diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Drowned Temple
4 Seat of the Synod
4 City of Traitors

4 Misthollow Griffins
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void

+ other things

Other thing obv Mana Vortex xD

shocked439

03-17-2016, 12:06 PM

New Sorin is too expensive for Legacy but I want to play Mardu Superfriends in Standard.

You'll need the green for oath of nissa.

bruizar

03-17-2016, 12:38 PM

Dust Bowl is nonbasic only. As much as I love Dust Bowl, it'd probably be waaay less efficient than your standard Waste-lock.

Although true, think of the applications for EDH. Every deck can run Dust Bowl + Drownyard Temple. Wasteland and Strip Mine are restricted. Yes, you can also run Crucible of Worlds, but this just makes it more compact.

I don't think the card will be that good though, we already had Dakmor Salvage.

MGB

03-17-2016, 12:48 PM

In legacy, you could play Stroke of Genius instead.

You do see that extra :2: in the casting cost of Stroke of Genius, right?

Poron

03-17-2016, 01:27 PM

the decks that play it don't really care about the UU more (because we're playing Blue Sun's Zenith, not SoG)

Finn

03-17-2016, 01:34 PM

The temple kinda sucks in multiples though. That is a big strike against it.

Barook

03-17-2016, 01:41 PM

Lemnear

03-17-2016, 01:54 PM

Also that Sorin artwork feels wrong...

Kinda looks like from an 80s comic? Maybe its just me!

Ok got it there is no diffuse twilight fog thing.

I swear I thought the same, when I saw the artwork

Megadeus

03-17-2016, 01:58 PM

The temple kinda sucks in multiples though. That is a big strike against it.

Why?

Richard Cheese

03-17-2016, 02:02 PM

That's how I understand it, since you can only cast it when the trigger resolves due to lack of "until end of turn".

So if you were to cast Infernal Tutor and crack LED to discard another one, Harness will trigger and let you cast the one in the yard while the first is still on the stack, and as long as you get another instant, you can cast it and still be hellbent for the original IT right?

PirateKing

03-17-2016, 02:03 PM

I swear I thought the same, when I saw the artwork

That white shading struck me more like something off DeviantArt.

Cire

03-17-2016, 02:05 PM

Man, that zombie makes me want to have a mono black zombie deck that actually works. Not good enough for legacy obviously, but maybe modern?

Delvis

03-17-2016, 02:10 PM

http://imgur.com/SW8LXft.jpg
When ETB, gets a +1/+1 counter for each zombie in the yard.
When you cast a zombie creature spell, put a 2/2 zombie token on the battlefield tapped.

Combos nicely with Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler.

You're the German here, but isn't it worded to enter the battlefield with the counters on it, rather than as an ETB trigger? Minor but relevant difference.

03-17-2016, 02:11 PM

Man, that zombie makes me want to have a mono black zombie deck that actually works. Not good enough for legacy obviously, but maybe modern?

One of our local guys top 16'd last Regionals with a mono-Black Zombie deck in Modern. I'm not even joking. I don't know the list off-hand (they only published top 8), but I could probably find out what it was this weekend. All I really remember was Geralf's Messenger, Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Obliterator off the top of my head.

This guy would almost certainly fit in there somewhere.

joven

03-17-2016, 02:13 PM

http://imgur.com/SW8LXft.jpg
When ETB, gets a +1/+1 counter for each zombie in the yard.
When you cast a zombie creature spell, put a 2/2 zombie token on the battlefield tapped.

Combos nicely with Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler.

So, casual zombie decks get not just one but two new broken toys. Gravecrawler was already overly strong for casual play back then. I really don't know how to make room in my casual zombie deck for those new super zombies.
But probably nothing for competitive play besides Standard, I guess.

tescrin

03-17-2016, 02:15 PM

http://imgur.com/SW8LXft.jpg
When ETB, gets a +1/+1 counter for each zombie in the yard.
When you cast a zombie creature spell, put a 2/2 zombie token on the battlefield tapped.

Brutal. Probably not that close to legacy power; but man that is some power creep for casual. I guess the tribe tends to die to pyroclasm pretty well, but holy balls.

Finn

03-17-2016, 02:25 PM

Actually, I think this card might be enough to make Zombie tribal a thing. I have done Carrion Feeder/Gravecrawler and what was a nuisance was the need for another zombie and also some strong effect for bothering with the whole thing. This guy fits that bill by doing both.

The deck still needs to be compact though. There are an awful lot of pretty good zombies and very few excellent ones. So you have not been able to go the Merfolk route with staples to augment the strategy into pure tempo and you also could not go the Goblin route with blazing speed and card advantage. This card opens the door for more of an aggro-combo route.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-17-2016, 02:30 PM

Admiral_Arzar

03-17-2016, 04:00 PM

just saying with each bloodghast you can tick stack +1!

Bloodghast doesn't block. Ophiomancer kills Goyfs.

bruizar

03-17-2016, 04:08 PM

Ongoing investigation looks cool. Probably the retreat to coralhelm of goblin welder and affinity though.

Zombie

03-17-2016, 04:23 PM

I like that they actually do low-cost investiga-trips a lot.

Ellomdian

03-17-2016, 05:14 PM

This is hot. 5 mana is too much obviously, but this card has combo written all over it. I bet its going to end up in a lot of EDH decks

"Good in EDH" - Damning with faint praise. The move to support WotC's preferred casual format with cards in actual sets over the last few years has been more detrimental to design than the NWO.

Nostalgic? Innistrad was just a few years ago. And Delver is everydays unnerving business in Legacy and Modern. Delver really didn't need to be continued. Also, this new one will be irrelevant to all formats and just screws up Limited. It's just dumb.

"Just a few years ago..." - 2011. Or to put it in context, pretty much the gap between Mirage and Invasion. It's always amusing how playing Legacy lends a perspective that things that happened before the last US election cycle were 'recent' in a game that only has 25 years of history.

Perspective is key ;)

rufus

03-17-2016, 06:00 PM

You're the German here, but isn't it worded to enter the battlefield with the counters on it, rather than as an ETB trigger? Minor but relevant difference.

Yeah, it's "enters with".

Also works with non-creature zombie cards or spells like Nameless Inversion.

Barook

03-17-2016, 07:38 PM

I like that they actually do low-cost investiga-trips a lot.
"Low-cost" is relative when the actual cantripping part still costs :2:.

From what I've seen in the spoiler, the clue mechanic has some interesting designs, but its playablity is severely hampered by costing :1: too much - for Standard/Limited reasons.

Zombie

03-17-2016, 08:51 PM

"Low-cost" is relative when the actual cantripping part still costs :2:.

From what I've seen in the spoiler, the clue mechanic has some interesting designs, but its playablity is severely hampered by costing :1: too much - for Standard/Limited reasons.

Yeah I wasn't speaking from a Legacy perspective there. They're awfully too slow for Legacy for the most part.

Barook

03-17-2016, 09:50 PM

http://tocage.jp/FILE/NEWS/2016/0314/mtg02_1457949912.jpg
More EDH fodder.

bruizar

03-17-2016, 10:42 PM

Yeah I wasn't speaking from a Legacy perspective there. They're awfully too slow for Legacy for the most part.

All i see is ravager candy and master of etherium boosters. There. Might be a new affinity deck with myr enforcer, somber hovergaurd, frogmite, and more top heagy affinity creatures like broodstar.

ReAnimator

03-17-2016, 10:49 PM

http://tocage.jp/FILE/NEWS/2016/0314/mtg02_1457949912.jpg
More EDH fodder.

Is this all it's capable of? It's only 2 more mana than Ad Naus (which is admittedly huge) but should just win on the spot and also never fizzles or places any casting cost restrictions on your deck construction or life total.

Probably not good enough but worth thinking about and brainstorming imo.

rufus

03-17-2016, 11:34 PM

Is this all it's capable of? It's only 2 more mana than Ad Naus (which is admittedly huge) but should just win on the spot and also never fizzles or places any casting cost restrictions on your deck construction or life total. ...

In vintage, perhaps, but what's the legacy win pile? 2x Lion's Eye Diamond + Past in Flames isn't going to get very far without extra set-up.

Omnitell already has Petals of Insight.

Megadeus

03-17-2016, 11:36 PM

I think at 6 mana it MIGHT be playable. Doubt it would be good enough still.

jrsthethird

03-18-2016, 12:35 AM

http://tocage.jp/FILE/NEWS/2016/0314/mtg02_1457949912.jpg
More EDH fodder.

I mean, Burning Wish for Dark Petition into Ad Nauseum is a 9 mana line in TES. This is powerful enough to warrant experimentation.

Jamaican Zombie Legend

03-18-2016, 02:17 AM

Card seems very bad; Diabolic Revelation and Increasing Ambition are both a lot better at multi-tutoring in EDH, and this effect has never been particularly strong in Legacy.

As an aside, is anyone else more than a little irritated by the blatant rarity upscaling of simple, staple effects? The 2-drop mana dork with deathtouch, the Diabolic Edict variant, the land/creature tutor (that's perfectly tailored for Standard ramp), the new Path/Swords...all effects that used to be reliably printed at Common or Uncommon now at Rare.

ThomasDowd

03-18-2016, 03:48 AM

I mean, Burning Wish for Dark Petition into Ad Nauseum is a 9 mana line in TES. This is powerful enough to warrant experimentation.

I like my chances on AN from 0 floating in the deck that takes that line though. This line seems convoluted and not as good, sure AN is non deterministic but a great majority of the time the cards you flip to it are + 3-4 storm and +4-5 mana, which + a card on the flip is a kill. at the same cost this is +2 cards after already investing probably more into this( some rituals an LED,etc).

if you can tutor three cards and win from zero starting mana you may as well be playing doomsday at that point.

Hopo

03-18-2016, 03:50 AM

As an aside, is anyone else more than a little irritated by the blatant rarity upscaling of simple, staple effects? The 2-drop mana dork with deathtouch, the Diabolic Edict variant, the land/creature tutor (that's perfectly tailored for Standard ramp), the new Path/Swords...all effects that used to be reliably printed at Common or Uncommon now at Rare.

I take you don't play limited. They really need to think the rarities with limited in mind. That's basically the only thing where it matters.

Megadeus

03-18-2016, 06:58 AM

I like my chances on AN from 0 floating in the deck that takes that line though. This line seems convoluted and not as good, sure AN is non deterministic but a great majority of the time the cards you flip to it are + 3-4 storm and +4-5 mana, which + a card on the flip is a kill. at the same cost this is +2 cards after already investing probably more into this( some rituals an LED,etc).

if you can tutor three cards and win from zero starting mana you may as well be playing doomsday at that point.

One thing is since you don't care to keep mana costs low because of AN, maybe it spurs a different storm deck?

Poron

03-18-2016, 07:29 AM

you still need 8-9 mana and you are the same open to he very same problems.
not sure it's an upgrade of any current deck.

Overall if you get to 9 mana you can still Tooth and Nails into Emrakul + Xenagos (God version) for the kill..

Gheizen64

03-18-2016, 07:38 AM

At 9 mana you can also just dragonstorm

Finn

03-18-2016, 07:51 AM

One thing is since you don't care to keep mana costs low because of AN, maybe it spurs a different storm deck?
Storm decks have lots of card selection and lots of mana accel. It needs to see lots of cards more than it needs to pay a premium for three specific cards.

rufus

03-18-2016, 08:07 AM

...

As an aside, is anyone else more than a little irritated by the blatant rarity upscaling of simple, staple effects? The 2-drop mana dork with deathtouch, the Diabolic Edict variant, the land/creature tutor (that's perfectly tailored for Standard ramp), the new Path/Swords...all effects that used to be reliably printed at Common or Uncommon now at Rare.

I think that the first two are part of the "creatures are better" new world order, and that the tutor is a pushed chase card. Note that - with Delirium - Traverse the Ulvenwald can find non-basics lands like Gaea's Cradle or Thespian Stage and Dark Depths. If I were inclined to speculate, I might pre-order some of those.

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 09:32 AM

HOOOO DAMN

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/asylumvisitor.jpg

It's a Blood Scrivener that doesn't suck!

Cire

03-18-2016, 09:36 AM

Can we just play a deck of 2 drop black draw engines, discard and removal now? :tongue:

Blackwizardsdowhatblackwizardsdo.dec

4 Asylum Visitor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Blood Scrivener
2 Pain Seer

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Jitte
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dismember
4 Doomblade
4 Dark Ritual

12 Swamp
4 Cavern of Souls

Barook

03-18-2016, 09:41 AM

That's really good - and combines well with Liliana. Generate CA by discarding it via Lili (if you have the mana), plus Lili keeps the hand size of both players down.

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 09:42 AM

The art's p decent, too.

Zombie

03-18-2016, 09:47 AM

Having Madness is a really nice touch. Bound to be evil with Lili as already said. Really sweet card, and one that's not likely to be found in blue at that.

Finn

03-18-2016, 10:15 AM

I have always wanted an excuse to play Mindslicer. Ehh heh.

Asylum Visitor looks very strong no matter how you tilt your lens though. It has a strong ability, synergizes with itself, and unbelievably it is a 3/1 for 2 in black. This chick looks carved out of the Deathrite Shaman cloth.

Barook

03-18-2016, 11:04 AM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/151/504/635938909278843554.png
Might be nice in Soul Sisters in Modern? It's another Champion of the Parish that can buff your team. 2 mana is still okay for that.

Gheizen64

03-18-2016, 11:17 AM

Took me a while to realize that this draw 2 a turn if both players are hellbent. Sweet baby jesus. Liliana gonna get banned in modern? Also, with this and blood scrivener, you can play a lot of draw effects in black stompy lists that don't kill you as you flip tombstalker. Chrome mox and dark rituals galore i'd say.

EDIT: after testing it a bit , it's not as good as i'd thought it'd be in term of drawing. You really need something to empty your hand often and fast. Little amount of 3 cmc cards if ever, and probably unmask /lotus petal/contagion or even soul spike.

maharis

03-18-2016, 11:18 AM

I don't see it. The card is cool, but is way worse than actual Bob in any situation where it's not turned on, and only marginally better when it is.

Let's say your attrition deck is really motoring, you activate Liliana for their last card, and this is your last card, and you Madness it in.

Go to their upkeep. Trigger, you draw. What are you drawing? If your deck goes after their hand and is playing this card, you probably picked up a land, sorcery, creature or planeswalker. It's likely a card you can't play on their turn. And if it's an instant, it's probably some sort of removal. So you have to hope they play into that removal (or have a target in play). Or you have to have some sort of instant speed discard outlet... but the available options are like Putrid Imp, Pack Rat, Oona's Prowler...

I guess it's a hard lock with Volrath's Dungeon unless they take 5. That would be amazing to pull off.

Edit: Never mind, Dungeon doesn't work, play as a sorcery. Darn. Well, maybe Zur's Weirding, Zuran Orb, and that new land that returns to play.

Zombie

03-18-2016, 11:27 AM

I don't see it. The card is cool, but is way worse than actual Bob in any situation where it's not turned on, and only marginally better when it is.

Don't think better Bobs. Think all the Bobs.

Fox

03-18-2016, 11:28 AM

Go to their upkeep. Trigger, you draw. What are you drawing? If your deck goes after their hand and is playing this card, you probably picked up a land, sorcery, creature or planeswalker. It's likely a card you can't play on their turn. And if it's an instant, it's probably some sort of removal. So you have to hope they play into that removal (or have a target in play). Or you have to have some sort of instant speed discard outlet... but the available options are like Putrid Imp, Pack Rat, Oona's Prowler....
I would add to this list cards like Firestorm, Flip-Jace, and Foil. Conceivably good with Sire of Insanity.

Killroy

03-18-2016, 11:32 AM

Asylum visitor seems fun with loam, looting, and raven's crime. Not sure if that's legacy or even modern playable but I like it.

Cire

03-18-2016, 11:38 AM

ReAnimator

03-18-2016, 11:45 AM

howltooth hollow

:tongue:

Latest #MTGFinance spike?

maharis

03-18-2016, 11:47 AM

With better madness cards does chain of smog get a second look? If the opponent elects not to do anything its a worse version of Hymn, but still CA +1, and if the opponent does choose to chain it, then you madness out a good creature and hit him again. If it's asylum visitor that you madnessed out, that even synergies well with smog?

Trouble with the Chain of Smog plan is that it only works once... if your opponent doesn't sniff out shenanigans earlier than that.

I would add to this list cards like Firestorm, Flip-Jace, and Foil. Conceivably good with Sire of Insanity.

Yeah but you're talking about either playing very situational/borderline bad cards, or cards that are good enough on their own/better in different shells.

One day they'll print a true competitor to Bob, but that day is not today.

rufus

03-18-2016, 12:15 PM

Trouble with the Chain of Smog plan is that it only works once... if your opponent doesn't sniff out shenanigans earlier than that.

Limitations of discard notwithstanding, 2-for-1 is CA.

With better madness cards does chain of smog get a second look?

2 mana for Chain of Smog, and then 2 more to play this guy on the follow-up is a lot of mana.

Finn

03-18-2016, 12:16 PM

Chain of Smog is a great idea in a world without Hymn to Tourach.

Richard Cheese

03-18-2016, 12:25 PM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/122/681/200/283/635938219813120671.png

Is this not just really silly in Affinity?

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 12:26 PM

EDIT: after testing it a bit , it's not as good as i'd thought it'd be in term of drawing. You really need something to empty your hand often and fast. Little amount of 3 cmc cards if ever, and probably unmask /lotus petal/contagion or even soul spike.

I mean, straight up, it's probably going to be bad. Even if you're ok with having an empty hand, you never want to actively seek an empty hand, and your opponent has no intention of giving up their hand either.

The key to making this chick viable is making good use of her madness and aggressive power. Right now I'm looking at the new Jackal Pups and the new Olivia for same-block interaction. Probably won't be Legacy viable (though I do have the sudden urge to pick up a playset of LEDs), but I could see it maybe doing work in Modern and definitely Standard.

Finn

03-18-2016, 12:41 PM

I mean, straight up, it's probably going to be bad. Even if you're ok with having an empty hand, you never want to actively seek an empty hand, and your opponent has no intention of giving up their hand either.

The key to making this chick viable is making good use of her madness and aggressive power. Right now I'm looking at the new Jackal Pups and the new Olivia for same-block interaction. Probably won't be Legacy viable (though I do have the sudden urge to pick up a playset of LEDs), but I could see it maybe doing work in Modern and definitely Standard.
There are so many ways:
Delirium Skeins
Brink of Madness

blah, blah...

Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, Chains of Mephistopheles with Winds of Change, Burning Inquiry, Magus of the Wheel, Anvil of Bogardan

Or just play Liliana and Smallpox. Liliana seems very well suited to pair with this card.

Gheizen64

03-18-2016, 12:46 PM

If this any play, it won't be in standard imho. Legacy has the tools to empty the hand and abuse the effect (chrome mox, petals, rituals, liliana, etc...), standard doesn't.

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 12:48 PM

There are so many ways:

I'm not saying there aren't ways to discard your hand (and your opponent's hand). I'm saying that having an empty hand is often unappealing, and overextending yourself to achieve that end is bad (and your opponent doesn't want an empty hand and will fight tooth and nail to retain cards).

rufus

03-18-2016, 12:49 PM

There are so many ways:
....
Or just play Liliana and Smallpox. Liliana seems very well suited to pair with this card.

Manabond seems like a potentially spectacular madness enabler, but you really want to make stuff work from the graveyard to play well with dredge.

Cire

03-18-2016, 12:55 PM

Chain of Smog is a great idea in a world without Hymn to Tourach.

I was thinking of it as Hymn 5-6?

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 01:02 PM

I was thinking of it as Hymn 5-6?

Especially considering that Hymn #4 is kinda awkward, why would you want #5 and #6? That's just begging to have your hand get swamped by crap.

MaximumC

03-18-2016, 01:04 PM

Running Blood Scrivener 2.0 with Chain is a win-win. Do they not bounce it back, smelling shenanigans? That's totally fine, they just got hit with a lucky roll on a Hymn to Torach. Do they bounce it back? Fine, keep up the process knowing that your deck is designed to better take advantage of that situation.

Ultimately, this card can succeed because it does several things better than Scrivener.
1. It benefits you when you're doing something you want to do anyway - empty their hand. (8-rack in Modern loves this)
2. It's a blowout if you get to double Hellbent.
3. It's a fine clock in the lategame as a topdeck.

I don't think it's a $10.00 card or anything, no, but it's probably a solid $1.00 - $5.00 on the back of its potential alone.

I was thinking of it as Hymn 5-6?

Not only that, but Chain has much gentler mana requirements at 1B, so it's less painful to slot it into BUG or some other shell.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/122/681/200/283/635938219813120671.png

Is this not just really silly in Affinity?

Eh, not really. When does Affinity want to take a break from WRECKING FACE in early turns to resolve a 1U enchantment, where the only payoff is making your affinity dorks cheaper once you've already cast them to make a raging clue?

If this card exiled a creature from ANY graveyard, I would ABSOLUTELY behind it. But, they made it garbage.

supremePINEAPPLE

03-18-2016, 01:06 PM

Is this not just really silly in Affinity?It's kind of interesting, a 2 mana enchantment that can very easily generate a clue every turn and has a semi-relevant extra line of text. I just have to wonder if it's better than something more aggressive. It would be very cool if it was worded like coastal piracy instead.

joven

03-18-2016, 01:07 PM

There are so many ways:
Delirium Skeins
Brink of Madness

blah, blah...

Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, Chains of Mephistopheles with Winds of Change, Burning Inquiry, Magus of the Wheel, Anvil of Bogardan

Or just play Liliana and Smallpox. Liliana seems very well suited to pair with this card.

Bottomless Pit
Necrogen Mists

MaximumC

03-18-2016, 01:10 PM

It's kind of interesting, a 2 mana enchantment that can very easily generate a clue every turn and has a semi-relevant extra line of text. I just have to wonder if it's better than something more aggressive. It would be very cool if it was worded like coastal piracy instead.

It's not good. I mean, look, let's say you are running affinity with creatures that actually have Affinity, and, say, Master. That's where it should be best, right?

Turn 1 - Artifact land, springleaf drum, Ornithopter, tap Land for Frogmite, go.
Turn 2 - Artifact land, tap lands for 2 mana enchantment (lol), attack with Frogmite, get a clue, tap thopter for mana and dump Myr Enforcer, go.
Turn 3 - Tap lands and thopter for a Master of Etherium.

So, in this best-case scenario, you're no better off than you were if you had just played any artifact instead of the enchantment. I don't think Affinity is super concerned about winning the long game.

Bottomless Pit
Necrogen Mists

Cunning Lethemancer
Augur of Skulls

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 01:19 PM

MaximumC

03-18-2016, 01:27 PM

The trouble continues to be that if you have a deck that consists of...

4*Asylum Visitor

4*Bottomless Pit
4*Brink of Madness
4*Chain of Smog
4*Delirium Skeins
4*Hymn to Tourach
4*Necrogen Mists

... you've got a pretty shitty deck.

Well maybe I mean

4x The Rack (WINNAR)
4x Shrieking Affliction

4x Funeral Charm (removal on dorks, also instant-speed discard to maintain hellbent with Visitor)
4x Hymn to Torach
4x Thoughtseize

4x Augur of Skulls (blocks or hymns)
4x Asylum Visitor (CA engine, hits for 3)

4x Gatekeeper of Malakir (Removal or beater)
4x Innocent Blood (Awesome removal if you are creature light)

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory (bigger than Muta if you have no tribal interaction)
16x Swamp

Doesn't seem too too bad.

supremePINEAPPLE

03-18-2016, 01:44 PM

It's not good. I mean, look, let's say you are running affinity with creatures that actually have Affinity, and, say, Master. That's where it should be best, right?

Turn 1 - Artifact land, springleaf drum, Ornithopter, tap Land for Frogmite, go.
Turn 2 - Artifact land, tap lands for 2 mana enchantment (lol), attack with Frogmite, get a clue, tap thopter for mana and dump Myr Enforcer, go.
Turn 3 - Tap lands and thopter for a Master of Etherium.

So, in this best-case scenario, you're no better off than you were if you had just played any artifact instead of the enchantment. I don't think Affinity is super concerned about winning the long game.Yeah I agree, like I said I only think it would interesting if you could get a clue for each creature that hit. Even then ensoul artifact is probably just better and that is hardly played at all.

Cire

03-18-2016, 02:09 PM

Well maybe I mean

4x The Rack (WINNAR)
4x Shrieking Affliction

4x Funeral Charm (removal on dorks, also instant-speed discard to maintain hellbent with Visitor)
4x Hymn to Torach
4x Thoughtseize

4x Augur of Skulls (blocks or hymns)
4x Asylum Visitor (CA engine, hits for 3)

4x Gatekeeper of Malakir (Removal or beater)
4x Innocent Blood (Awesome removal if you are creature light)

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory (bigger than Muta if you have no tribal interaction)
16x Swamp

Doesn't seem too too bad.

I was thinking:

Discard Outlets
4 Liliana's Veil
4 Small Pox
2 Chain of Smog
Draw Engines
4 BOB
4 Asylum Visitor
Other Madness Card?
4 ??
Removal
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dismember
Discard
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Thoughtsieze
Mana
4 DRS
4 Dark Ritual
14 Lands?

Richard Cheese

03-18-2016, 02:21 PM

iamajellydonut

03-18-2016, 02:37 PM

3*Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4*Asylum Visitor
4*Falkenrath Gorger
3*Newlivia

Eh?

Edit: The only way this will really work is if they print more vampires that don't suck. Though Olivia into hastey Olivia is pretty neato, and hastey Jace is also pretty neato. As well as Jace into Asylum Visitor into flip dat Jace into whatever snapped back.

Fox

03-18-2016, 06:36 PM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/122/681/200/283/635938219813120671.png

Is this not just really silly in Affinity?
Cue the "Blue's Clues" tokens.

tescrin

03-18-2016, 06:56 PM

The affinity comment is real.

* Sac things to grow ravager
* they are artifacts for affinity, so you could be crazy and run Broodstar if you want a gigantic flyer
* They power your deck as you go so you don't have to draw dead after your initial jizz-spasm.

If you thought Master of Etherium was big before, this about growing him 2-4 a turn. Even if you use the tokens to draw cards, you'll now have more artifacts. You can actually run this, Master, maybe still Thoughtcast, and be in the Force-of-Will minimum zone. Add some dumb garbage like Baleful Strix or Tezz and you could have Affinity playing forces

It'd be neat to see Affinity do something in legacy; would make Deed a heck of a lot better :P.

(nameless one)

03-18-2016, 07:48 PM

This or build a deck with only one artifact (Blightsteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan/Sphinx of Steel Wind), cards that give you clues and Shape Anew.

The same can be done with Polymorph but Shape Anew let's you run utility creatures (like Snapcaster Mage). The clues can also help you find Shape Anew

Lormador

03-18-2016, 08:16 PM

howltooth hollow

:tongue:

Latest #MTGFinance spike?

This would be funnier if it were less likely to happen. Apparently it doesn't take any sort of playability for a spike to happen these days.

GoblinSettler

03-18-2016, 11:12 PM

Cue the "Blue's Clues" tokens.

While we're on 90's pop culture references, I want Nahiri, Harbinger alters with Lisa "Left eye" Lopes. That Markov Manor business probably started with some of Sorin's boots in the bathtub.

Jamaican Zombie Legend

03-19-2016, 04:05 AM

I take you don't play limited. They really need to think the rarities with limited in mind. That's basically the only thing where it matters.

That's the rub...I do play Limited. In fact, I probably play it more than any other format nowadays.

I understand that some staple effects need to be at Rare or Mythic because they are so devastating in Limited, warping entire games or matches around them. Wraths, Control Magic, extra turn effects, out-of-the-box value engines (e.g. Planeswalkers), permenants that can't be interacted with, and whatnot all have strong claims to Rare status based on how groady they are to play against in Draft or Sealed; we don't want things like Pestilence, Sprout Swarm, or Rolling Thunder showing up in every draft pod—perhaps in multiples!

But mana dorks, tutors that are Lay of the Land unless you have a lot of Delirium-enabling, and simple removal...these don't need to be Rare for the sake of Limited. They're Rare to sell more packs.

Note that - with Delirium - Traverse the Ulvenwald can find non-basics lands like Gaea's Cradle or Thespian Stage and Dark Depths. If I were inclined to speculate, I might pre-order some of those.

Rarity gripes aside, it's a very interesting card. I'm not entirely confidant in Legacy playability, but it will find a home in at least one Constructed format; it's very strong.

The art's p decent, too.

Yeah. Bastien L. Deharme seems like a promising new artist. Dark Dabbling and Sentinel of the Eternal Watch (speaking of things that should've been Rare for Limited's sake...) were great to look at.

Edit: Lol, more bitching! Fire Diamond/Fellwar Stone/Coldsteel Heart variant at Rare! Via Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4b20hb/soi_new_spoiler_needs_translation_care_to_help/):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cd40XiPUMAAbiG4.jpg

Decayed Tombstone

Artifact, costs 2

~ Enters the battlefield tapped

{T}:Choose a colour of a card in your graveyard. Add one mana of that colour to your mana pool

tescrin

03-19-2016, 04:27 AM

Rarity gripes aside, it's a very interesting card. I'm not entirely confidant in Legacy playability, but it will find a home in at least one Constructed format; it's very strong.

I could see it either way for Legacy. The fact it could be Wasteland #5-8 pretty easily while being Goyf #5-8 in the same deck depending on where you're at on board and what you're facing, it seems possible. Adding that it could mean a Maverick style land package without playing Maverick seems ok as well. Main issues IMO is that it's weak to RiP, and possibly weak to DRS. 4 Types in your own grave is also a bit harder than Goyf, as Goyf normally gets at least one of his P/T buffs from the opponent (one of you missed sorcery, or your dudes are only getting Plowed, etc.)

Jamaican Zombie Legend

03-19-2016, 04:44 AM

Yeah, the upside of Traverse is outstanding. It's an effect (arguably) more powerful than Worldly Tutor, Living Wish, or other such cards that have fringe Legacy playability. In some respects, it can rival GSZ or Crop Rotation (but certainly not in all).

The thing is, these cards don't have the downside of being Lay of the Land if you aren't Delirious. I can't think of a single deck in Modern/Legacy that could tolerate playing that card; and playing dead cards is harsh in high-power, non-rotating formats. Fetching a basic isn't worth a card and 1 mana when fetchlands and duals/shocks exist.

Now Standard G/x/C Ramp on the other hand, they'll like this effect a lot. It fetches Wastes on turn 1 to enable Ruin in Their Wake and fetches bombs like World Breaker in the late game.

I'd love to see some enterprising brewer push this card in Legacy or Modern...I'm just not certain it's possible.